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Minutes of Evidence, and Ansv/ers to Paper K, &c. to totf) JUjouscs of parliament fig GTommanti of ?!?cr irHajcstg* DUBLIN: PRINTED BY ALEXANDER THOM AND SONS, 87, ABBEY-STREET, FOR HER majesty’s STATIONERY OFFICE. 1855. EVIDENCE. Page Brasbie, Rev. Denis Leyne, . . 307 Burke, Rev. William John, , 312, 317,322 Butler, Rev. Thomas, . 333 Cahill, Rev. Thomas, . 297 Carroll, Mr. Christopher, . 269 Crolly, Rev. George, 18, 22 Fagan, Rev. Edward, . 290 Flanagan, Rev. Matthew, d.d., 1 Flannelly, Mr. James, . . 283 Furlong, Rev. Thomas, . . 91 Gaffney, Very Rev. Miletius, d.d.. . 244 Galvin, Mr. Coleman, . 266 Gargan, Rev. Denis, . 102 Gillic, Rev. Laurence, . . 356 IIackett, Rev. Richard, . 165 Harold, Rev. John, . 42 Hurley, Mr. Patrick, . 283 Jennings, Rev. AVilliam, . 140 Kelly, Rev. Matthew, . 132 Lavelle, Rev. Patrick, . 270, 277 Leahy, Rev. Daniel, Page ., 299 Lee, Rev. Walter, d.d., . . 192 M‘Auley, Rev. Charles, . 293 McCarthy, Rev. Daniel, . 149 Madden, Mr. John, . 275 Moriarty, Very Rev. David, d.d., . 111, 119 Murray, Rev. Patrick, d.d., . . 72 Neville, Rev. Henry, 47, 341 O’Callaghan, Rev. John, . 183 O’Connor, Mr. Thomas, . . 268 O’Donnell, Rev. Patrick, . 296 O'Hanlon, Rev. John, 3 O’Kane, Rev. James, . 172 O’Sullivan, Rev. Michael, . 288 Owen, Mr. Jacob, . . . • . 259 Renehan, Very Rev. L. F., d.d., . 222 Russell, Rev. Charles William, d.d.. . 57 Slattery, Mr. Daniel, . . 278 Whitehead, Rev. Robert Ffrench, d.d., . 205 ANSWERS TO PAPER K, &c. Crolly, Rev. George, Neville, Rev. Henry, . 383 403, 406 Murray, Rev. Patrick, d.d., O’IIanlon, Rev. John, d.d.. . 363, 408 . 361 .ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE [^^oTE The figures denote the pages.] The Eev. Matthew Flanagan, d.d., p.p., Secretary to the Board of Trustees ; — Election of Trustees ; meetings of Trustees ; communi- cation between 't rustees and Council, I . Proceedings of Board of Trustees ; Lecturer on Elocution ; furnishing of students’ rooms ; College buildings ; purchase of books, 2. Attention of the 'Frustees to the condition ot the College, 3. The Rev. John O’IIanlon, d.d„ Librarian of the College and Prefect of the Dunboyne Establishment: — Dunboyne Establishment— cause of present vacancies ; complaint as to exclusion of an individual student,; studies of the Dunboyne students ; Eastern languages ; Greek, 3. Study of Greek during divinity years ; Greek fathers ; supply of dictionaries in the iibrary ; theological studies of the Dunboyne students, 4. Disuse of Bailly in the College ; condemnation of Bailly at Rome and its causes ; effect of such condemnation on the use, in Roman Catholic Colleges, of the condemned work ; treatises of Bailly pre- viously read in Maynooth, 5. Expediency of carrying into effect the provisions of the statutes as to the employ- ment of the Dunboyne students in teaching ; deficiencies in preparatory education ; provisions of the statutes as to the employment of the Dimbojme students in teaching, 6. Premiums ; whether students should be compelled to ex- pend portion of their funds in the formation of a library ; number of professors and officers who were Dunboyne students; number of Bishops who wore Dunboyne students ; adoption of term ‘ ‘ Dunboyne Scholarship, 7 . Funds appropriated for purchase of books for library ; defects of the library ; catalogue ; recommendation of books for piu’- chase; the new library; gifts to the College library, 8. Expediency of librarv fees for maintenance of the library ; classes admitted to 'the library; library for the junior classes ; sacred oratory ; instruction in catechising ; canon law, 9. Method of instruction in canon law ; expediency of having text-books emanating from the College itself; VanEspeii; Giraldus; Krimcr; Maschatt; subjects treated of by the several authors on canon law referred to by witness, 10. Instruction as to pastoral duties; works of Dclugo and Arriaga; other scholastic writers; Natalis Alexander ; Alzog ; study of Sacred Scriptui-e by Dun- boyne students; temporal power of the Pope — teaching in Maynooth on this subject, 11. Distinctions between matters spiritual and matters temporal; whether voting at elections be a temporal or spiritual matter, 12. Duties of priests with respect to elections ; whether warranted in withholding the sacraments from voters on nccoimt of their preference of particular candidates in certain cases ; whether a priest is warranted in recommending a parti- cular candidate from the altar, 13. Voting at elections both a temporal right and a moral duty ; exhortations trom the altar on this subject ; whether judgment of voter can be coerced ; case of ignorant voters, 14. Voting according to conscience is a moral duty ; the moral duty consists not merely in voting for a proper candidate, but in voting for the best candidate ; case of conflicting opinions as to the comparative fitness of candidates, 15. In case of a reason- able doubt it is not the priest’s duty or right to coerce the voter ; cases where sin would be committed ; first article of Galilean Liberties, 1 6 . Supposed case as to interference of the Pope in elections ; of the bishops ; whether bull “ coena Domini” be in force in Ireland, 17. The Eev. George Crolly, Professor of Theology:— Discontinuance of Bailly’s Theology as a class-book ; effect of a work being put on the Index ; expediency of professors preparmg a course of their own, 1 8. Spirit of teaching in Maynooth cannot be inferred from class-books; suggestion that course should be composed for the College; proposal made by professors to Trustees ; treatise of Dr. Delahogue, 19. Suggested study of Biblical Greek during divinity years; study of Greek; entrance examination; English ; language of divinity lectures, 20. Of lectures in Scripture and Ecclesiastical history ; election for Dun- bojTie establishment ; no specific examination ; alteration in Divinity classes; improvements in entrance examin.a- tion, 21. Bailly’s 'rheology ; supposed reasons for placing that work upon the Index ; teaching of witness as to respective right of civil and spiritual powers with respect to marriage, 22. Whether withdrawal of Bailly will affect witness’s opinions on Gallican questions ; teaching of wit- ness as to Gallican liberties; temporal power; second Gallican article incorrect in fact; meaning of “ Ecume- nical Council,” 23. Necessity of the Pope's concurrence, in order to give the character of Ecumenicity to a Council — twofold effect of such concurrence ; consent of absent bishops implied in the Pope’s confirmation, 24. Requisites of a definition of faith ; third article of Gallican liberties — untrue in the opinion of witness, 25. Fourth Gallican article — infallibihty of the Pope — not a question of any practical importance ; extract from Father Perrone to this effect; instances — the .Tansenistic controversy — the Council of Pistoia — the immaculate conception, 26. Infallibility of the Pope is, as it is exercised, the same substantially as that of the Universal Church ; infallibility not attributable to the Pope personally ; authority of the Pope in matters of discipline, 27. Publication of the Pope’s decrees ; mode of ascertaining the fact of such publication ; instruction of the Pope binding with respect to education. Queen’s Colleges, 28. Effect of decree of the Pope as to education — obedience diie to him ; control of the Pope over education necessary for his government of the Church ; decision of the Pope as to the Queen’s Colleges, 29. Queen’s Colleges — clergy commanded, laity e.xhorted, to abstain from them ; such exhortation does not amount to a law ; effect of with- drawal of Bailly on theological teaching in Maynooth, 30. Teaching of witness as to authority of the Pope or the Church in spiritual or temporal matters, and distinction betw'een things spiritual and things temporal ; direct tem- poral power — this opinion universally abandoned; indirect temporal power — this latter opinion equally untrue in the opinion of witness; teaching of witness to that effect; supreme .and independent power of the Church in spiritual m.atters ; distinction between things spiritual and things temporal, 31. 'Te.aching of witness as to the respective provinces of the spiiitual and temporal powers ; the Church can neither confer nor t.ake away temporal power ; power of the Church the same as in the first centuries, 32. Teaching of witness as to the respective provinces of the spiritual and temporal powers, and as to distinction be- tween things spiritual and things temporal; sanction of the Church for enforcing her decrees; natme of the sanction the most obvious .and universal distinction between powers ; the Church’s sanction of a purely spiiitual character ; separate supremacy, each in its own order, of Church and State, does not prevent great benefits being conferred on both by their united action, 33. Distinction between “spiritual” and “ecclesiastical;” case put of .acts par- t.aking of both a temporal and spiritual nature, 34. Con- trol over electors; voting at elections a purely temporal act; moral princqiles regulating exercise of right of voting, 35. 'To coerce a voter to vote for a p.articular candidate, by denouncing his refusal as a sin, or threatening to with- hold the sacr.aments, is an .abuse of power on the p.art of the priests; expression of the Pope’s di.sapprobation of the part taken by some of the clergy in elections, 36. As to right of interference of the clergy in elections ; witness’s teaching governed by the spirit of these observations; not for the advantage of the Church that clergy should take so active a part in elections ; advice given by witness to his pupils on foregoing subjects; improvement of College since augmentation of grant, 37. Recreation grounds; Council of the College ; duties of the Council and President; other Council in the College, 38. Suggestion that there should be two Councils, viz., one of discipline and one of studies; the composition of the present Council objectionable, and why ; communication between the professors and the Trustees; .appointment of additional Junior Deans, 39. Fourth Dean unnecessary; monitors; order of precedence in the College ; as to employment of Dunboyne students in the function of te.achiug, 40. Power of bishoi> to recall a professor to his diocese — exemption of iirofessors of 'I’he- ology ; disadvantage of want of power to give degrees ; all i)rofcssorships open to Dunboyne students, 4 1 . IV ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. The Rev. John Harold, Roman Catholic Curate of the pariili of Kingstown, in the diocese of Dublin : — Entrance examination of witness; rank in life of stu- dents; proficiency of students in English grammar and composition, 42. Ereparatory schools ; seminary at C;is- tleknock; lay seminary; expense at Castleknock; number of students ; knowledge of English grammar not testul :it entrance; Irish language; as to acquisition of English during collegiate course, 43. Instruction in preaching; in the art of catechising ; elocution; use of the Latin lan- guage in cla.ss, 44. Mu.sie ; intercourse of the professors with the students at IMaynooth; enlargement of the edu- cation of the laity during late years ; natural philosojdiy ; trigonometry; astronomy, 4.3. Advantage of a concomitant study during the physic j-ear; religious instruction ; pro- jiosed division of senior .students ; mode of raising the standard of English education, 4b. The Rev. Henry Xeville, Professor of Theology : — Suggested alteration in divinity classes; statement of witness’s views on that point ; present distribution of teaching in moral and dogmatic theology, 47. Suggested alteration in divinity classes ; the largeness of the class, under the proposed system, no ground of objection, 48. Combination of junior clas'cs ; Greek; suggestions for promoting that study; emidoyment of Dunboyne stu- dents; logic; metapli 3 Ldcs; ethics, 49. Authors referred to on the subject of metaphysics and ethics ; combination of logic and natural philosophy classes ; Latin the language of the logic class; advantage of this, 50. Studj^ of logic chieflj' looked upon as pre])ar.atorv to theology ; house treatises; writers in dogmatic theology referred to; expe- dienej^ of professors preparing house treatises ; employment of Dunboyne students in teaching, 51. Entrance exami- nation — English grammar ; rule on that subject not en- forced ; instruction in English ; Irish language, 52. The- ology; extension and improvement of that department since increased gi’ant ; premiums ; library ; library for junior classes; intercourse between professors and stu- dents, 53. Ko intercourse between professors ;urd studenis iir hours of relaxation ; diliieultj' of ett'oeting a change in the present system; the deans; the monitors, 54. Duties of the monitors ; inoiutors selected from the two senior classes; the iiifirmariaii; custom of associating with fellow- diocesans; extends onl;,' to after-dinner recreation, 55. Choice of confessors ; effects of increased grant; temporal power of the Pope or the Church ; interference of a jiriest with his ])arishioners as to matters which he conceives may indirectlt' affect the good of the Church, 5b. Distinction between jiower and influence; any improper interference on the part of the elcrg_v direetl}' contrary to principles inculcated at iLiynooth, 57. The Rev. Ch.^rles "WiLLi-rji Russell, d.d., Professor of Ecclesiastical Ilistorj- ; — Ecclesiastical history classes ; limited access of the stu- dents to books ; suggestion of special library for these classes, 57. Supply of books; lectures in ecclesiastical histor}'; authors; reason for arrangeraeut of lectures, 58. Arrangement of course of stud}' in ecclesiastical history- classes; diflercnce of method in teaching junior and senior classes ; entire course of ecclesiastical history cannot be gone through by the students under the juesent arrange- ment, 59. Combination of logic and philosophy classes ; suggestion of releasing philosophy class from ecclesiastical history, and enlarging the time for that study during divinity years ; biennial course of study ; advantages of present method of teaching senior class ; publication of text-books; of text books of Church history, 60. Import- ance of having College text-books; foundation of profes- sorship of Church history ; suggested change in the consti- tution of the Council ; operation of present constitution to render the branches of study not represented in the Council less estimated in the’ election of Dunboyne stu- dents; no statute as to chair of ecclesiastical history; premiums, 61. Defects in literary education of students; remedy by raising standard at entrance; Greek; other studies during divinity years; advantage of combining lighter studies ; orthography, 62. Language used in logic aud theology classes; substitution of English for Latin in teaching logic; petits seminaires; cour.se of study in May- nooth as compared with that in foreign Colleges ; College of Carlow, 63. Recreation in Maynooth; nine hours a day allotted for study ; beneficial effects of the late alter- ations ; elevation of habits and tone of mind ; inadequate chapel accommodation ; proposed further division of the College, 64. Course adopted by witness in class as to free questions in the Church ; temporal authority of the Pope ; authority of priests in matters temporal, 65. Authority of Roman Catholic clergymen to refuse the sacraments to voters ; extreme cases in which a particular vote might be a sin ; distinction between authority as a priest aud in- fluence as a priest, 66. Temporal power of the Popes in the middle ages, arose from common law of mediaeval Christendom ; desirableness of house treatises on justice and contracts, 67. Placing of Bailly on the Index ; doc- trine as to marriage ; teaching in Maynooth on that subject not affected by Bailly’s condemnation ; Bailly's opinion as to separability of the contract from the sacrament of mar- riage — difference of opinion on this point arose Irom the controversy as to whether the parties or the priest be the minister of the sacrament of matrimony. 68. Taught at IMaynooth that the contract of marriage is the basis of the sacrament, and that the state cannot iiistitute diriment impediments; tauglit also tluit the civil cflccts of m.arriage depend altogether on the civil law ; validity of marriage between Roman Catholics and Protestants not solemnized according to the requisites of the Council of Trent; alter- ation in the law might be made by the same authority; decree of Benedict XIV. as to validity of mixed marriages ill theKetherlands not solemnized according to the decree of the Council of Trent ; letter of Pius VI. to the same effect as regards Ireland, 69. Law of the Council of Trent not in force until thirty days after publication ; marriage of two Roman Catholics where requisites prescribed by the Council of Trent are not complied with ; such marriages void by ecclesiastical law, but the jiriest in such a case would urge the p.arties to become properly married, 70. Conscientious obligation to validate the previous invalid marriage; supposed inference from the correspondence between the Cardinal Prefect of Propaganda and the Ec- clesiastical Trustees, in 17t)6, as to teacliing in Maynooth on the subject of the temporal jiower of the Popes; such inference from the writings of St. Augustine and St. Tho- mas erroneous, 7 1 . Teacliing of St. Thom:is referable to mediaeval constitution of society; attention of students called to this distinction ; whetlier the teaching of these doctors has any bearing on teaching in Maynooth as to the other points of the so-called Gallican liberties; freedom of Roman Catholic schools as to opinions of doctors, 72. The Rev. Patrick Murray, d.d., Professor of the First Class of Theology : — Suggested alteration in divinity classes, 72. Whether amount of application to theology exclusively is excessive; extreme importance of that study; extensive subject-mat- ter of divinity course; classification of students as to ability ; students of inferior :d)ilities should study all the requisite parts of the course, but in a more elementary form ; difficulty of adapting teacliing to students of supe- rior and inferior abilities at once ; too much theology for students of inferior abilities, not too much for the rest, 73. Extensive and various subject-matter of divinity course; advantages of proposed alteration, 74. Time devoted to study ; periods of recreation ; arrangement of divinity lec- tures previous to 1828; recreation of students, 75. Life of the students too laborious and monotonous ; v-acant days in other Colleges; opinion of witness as to extension of times of relaxation ; language of witness’s lectures, 76. Latin less used in class of moral theology ; version of Scripture used in preaching; witness’s recommendation as to reading of Scripture; instruction in preaching, 77. Proposed chair of Sacred oratory; English rhetoric ; Pro- fessor should lecture a portion of the divinity students; preparatory seminaries; lay teachers; witness’s idea of true sacred eloquence, 7 8. Biblical Greek ; Greek Fathers; impossibility of maldng all good classical scholars; sugges- tion as to attendance of divinity students in Greek class, and making such attendance a condition for Dunboyne candidates; employment of Dunboyne students in teach- ing, not in classics but in theology; candidature for Dun- boyne establishment to be thrown open to all students without respect to diocese ; suggestion of fundamental change in the mode of teaching classics, 79. Adojition of term “Dunboyne scholars;” witness teaches an entire, and that the senior class ; house treati.ses ; jirogress of the- ology as a science ; expediency of professors writing books of instruction ; impediment arising from the laboriousness of their present duties, 80. Instance in the case of witness personally; advantage to priests in the mission of having authentic class-books ; Dr. Delahogue's treatises ; his doc- trine as to temporal power invariably taught by witness; authority of the Pope in temporals, and distinction between matters spiritual and matters temporal, 81. Temporal power direct and indirect; s])iritual power; authority of the Pope in matters ])olitical, bearing on the welfare of the Church; authority of the Pope in elections; .spiritual re- lations of temporal things, 82. Illustrations; authority of the I’ope to interfere, through clergy, in elections ; duty of electors according to principles of theology; .spiritual au- thority cannot change that duty ; exposition and application of theological principles, 63. Analogous cases ; application of principles resinned ; improindety of denunciation ; ex- treme case in which interference would be proper ; even in such a ease the voter should not be compelled by spiiitual censure to give a vote to his own injury; extract from dio- cesan statutes of Leinster as to public (lenimciations by the clergy, 84. Further illustrations of the spiritual relation of temporal actions; politico-religious questions — witness's opinion of them in general ; teaching of witness as to pro- priety of clergymen interfering in politics, 85. Address of witness to his pupils on the subject of interference in poli- tics; the rule as to clergymen taking part in political agita- tion ; proportions of clergymen who have taken such intem- perate part in politics who were educated in Maynooth; declaration of the late Pope as to uniform doctrine of the Church on duty of clergy in reference to temporal affairs, &c., 86. Preparatory schools; how far Jlaynooth reflects the ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE V tomUMU'ifs, politifiil ami otlicvw isc, of tin? jH-opk' ; IraininL^ from an lairlior poriod of lifo would contrilnito inudi to tlie forinatioii of a more spiritual characlor aiuoiip' tljo stu- dents; instance of political I'xciteineut bein;^' discountiai- anced by tbe Colle.ue authorities, «7. laud Xoiiuanby's visit to the Collego in 1 8.'bi— iillcfi'cd speech of a protessor on that occasion; no ])rofesst>r in the ( 'ollepe capable ot expressing such a seutiment ; moral theolopy — bitaivini ; ju'esent condition of the College as to house treatises iu theidogy ; comlemniition of ihiillv ; teaching- in Mayiiooth as to matrimony not allected by that condemnation; tcach- iug on tbe subject of mavriage, 88. impediment of chm- destinity does notexi.st where maniiigo is between a Konian Catholic ami a Protestant; impeilinient of clandestinity where both ]iarties are Koman Catholics; decri'c as to clandestinity now in force all over Ireland ; marriage voiil for clandestinity has no olfect as pre-contract or spousalia; ]>ractical course ado))ted where a i;crson invalidly married, by reason of clandestinity, seeks to marry another jierson; e.xceptious to the rule obliging such person to invalithite his previous marriage, 8!). Ellect in .such case ot the va- lidity of the previous marriage, according to the law of the land; nature of the marriage contract, bb. The Kev. Thomas Fi rlong, Professor of Theology : — Salmanticenscs ; licnedict XIY. ; Lignori ; Collet ; Tournely ; expediency of having text-books iirepared by the professors; Dr. Delahogue’s works still in use in the College ; Scavini ; Collet— Antoine ; Tournely ; Sahnan- ticenses; .Salamanca College; temporal jiower of the Pope or the Church, !tl. lhincii>les inculcated on that subject at JJaynooth; application of these ]irinciples to the prac- tical concerns of life; treatise, “l)e Obligationibus Sta- tuum duty of allegiance ; intercourse of professors with students; exiiediency of further subdivision of the College; its practicability, 92. l-’urther subdivision would not entail the necessity of an additional dining-hall; but would entail the necessity of separate recreation grounds; suggested al- teration in the divinity classes; circles for discussion in the evening; sejiaration into groups of co-dioeesaus in tlie after-dinner recreation, 9.1. Such separation into groups of co-diocesans not sufticient ; inadequate size of the recrea- tion grounds ; di\'ision into cameratas at Pome ; circles for discussion ; as to discussion in English ; Latin prefer- :ible; use of Latin conducive to precision of thought; ne- cessity for cultivation of English, 94. Necessity of sup- plying deficiency iu jireparatory schools ; Engli>h ; private- reading; whether students are guided in the choice of books; classes in which English is used; English compo- sition ; deficiency of students in English attribut.able to defective preparatory education, 95. I’reponderance of literary training; application to study too continuous; Greek; general taste for literature ; as to encouragement to private study of literature ; proposal of Greek studies for Uunboyne candidates, 9fi. Necessity of preparatory training; ecclesiastical seminaries preferable; Castleknock ; no serious objection to mixed system in i)vcparatory edu- cation; Carlow — Armagh; expense of preparatory educa- tion ; Carlow ; instruction at Maynooth in Church cere- monies ; preaching, 97. Training in the giving of cate- chetical instruction; catechising in parish Church; want of sufficient training in this respect a defect in Maynooth sysieni; sermons preached by the students; distinct class of .sacred oratory desirable. 98. Objections to the suggested method of sending the students outside of the College for the purpose of catechising; Dunboyne e.stablishmcnt, 99. Spirit of the College witli re.«pect to Galilean questions ; higher view at present ])revailing as to the spiritual autho- rity of the Fopi? ; infallibility of the Pope ; spirit of wit- ness s teaching on this subject ; temporal power of the Pope; Dr. Dclahogue's proijosition on that subject has been constantly maintained at Maynooth; answers of wit- ness given in former inquiry still adhered to by him, loo. Jurisdiction of the Poi^e confined to questions of faith and morals ; limits of his interference in ])olitics ; interference of the clergy in politics; exercise of the franchise; princi- ples regulating the legitimate intervention of the clergy with respect to elections; teaching of the College on these subjects, 101. Sense in which the infallibility of the Pope is held by those who adopt that opinion ; power to release from allegiance never taught nor insinuated at Maynooth, 102 . The Rev. Denis Gargan, Professor of Humanity: — State of preparation of students at entrance as to Greek and Latin; preparatory education, 102. Deficiency in knowledge of the English language ; Greek grammars used ; Latin grammar ; insufficient opportunity of access to books as regards junior students ; library for the junior department, 103. Algebra; arithmetic and algebra ; e.x- ercises in the humanity class ; logarithms ; geometry taught in rhetoric class ; mathematical studies suspended during logic year ; plan of contemporaneous studies sug- gested by the professors of the junior classes, 104. Facili- ties for keeping up classical knowledge ; course of mathe- matics under proposed plan ; extent of geometry learned in rhetoric class ; Darre’s geometrj- ; Greek studies under proposed plan, 105. Discouragement to classics from Hu- manity Professors not being on Conncil ; function of Dun- boyne students under the proposed metluxl ; capability of Dunboyne students for performing the above duty — exhi- bition 'to be created for their services; iirovisions of the statutes for the cnqdoyment of the Dunlioyne students in le:icliing, loti. Advantages of carrying out the :d«)ve pro- visions ; suggestion of giving students an option to omit mathematical studies; witness's opinion of necessity of study of luitural i)hilosophy ; mathcmalic;d course would not admit of ;d)ridgment; caj)acity for unit hematics among the students, 107. Greek; no examination at election of Dunboyne students; extemled course for Dunboyne stu- dents;' use of Latin iu theological lectures; compositions in verse, 108. Preaching; ci itieising of students’ sermons; English composition ; preaching— instruction in composi- tion of .a sermon, 109. .Sermons of the students ; training in the giving of catechetical instruction; proposal to set ajjart a fuml for purchase of books for the juidor clas.ses ; associat'on among the st\ulents ; temporal power of the Pope, 1 10. Effects of increased grant. 111. The Very Rev. David Moriarty. d.d.. President of the Col- lege of All-Hallows at Drumcondra: — College of All-1 hallows ; foreign missions; distribution of missionaries sent out by the College, 111. Sources of revenue of All-llallows ( ’ollege; emoluments of professors and officers of All-llallows College ; Society for the Pro- ])agatinn of the I’aith; other institutions supplying priests for foreign missions; Carlow College; ’iVatcrford College; F(>reign Colleges; Maynooth, 112. PishojjS abroad who wore .Maynooth students; in Her Jl.ajcsty s foreign pos- sessions : I'nited States ; no person educated in Maynooth for foreign missions ; R. C. clergy who have gone to America with emigrants ; length of course iu All-Hallows College, 113. Course of studies in All-Hallows tPllege, 114. English comjiosition ; orthograjtby; di.stribution of the hours of the day in .\ll-llallows College, 1 15. Profes- sors and students associate at meals; im[)ortancc of this arrangeti.eiit; association ofjtrofessorsand students iluring period of recreation ; other duties of the pr.jfessors towards the students; religious instruction, 1 Ki. Meaning of “Ascetic Theology;” work of Rodriguez on Christian perfection ; etfects on individual character of such exer- cises and instructions; teaching of witness to his students as to interference in politics; instance — slavery question iu United States; effect of refined manners in intercourse with tbe poor; conqiosition of sermons, 117. Missions; instruction in catechising : catechising in ]iarish church ; essenti;d importrmce of training in lu'eaching and catechis- ing; sacred music, 118. Ecclesiastical music— its import- ance ; recreation at All-Hallows; vacatiem; sources of supply of students to All Hallows College; general state of preparation at entrance. 119. Preparatory education ; Schools of the Christian Prothers ; whetuer means of pitv paratory education have increased, or the contrary; school at Mount Melleray; Castleknock seminary; defective sys- tem of preparatory education iu Ireland conqiared with that in France and England, 120. Comparative education of English and Iri.sh ecclesiastics ; comparative education of French and Irish ecclesiastics ; Greek ; discij)line and course of studies in the College of St. Sulpice, at Paris; su))eriors are not salaried ; association of supcrior.s with students, 121. Discipline of the College of St. Suljuce; surveillance; paternal discipline; change of offices ; special means for religious training ; preponderance of sjjiritual over intellectual training; more intellectual training re- quisite in Ireland, 122. Social trahdng more necessary in Ireland than in Franco; no peculiarity of character in Irish student to render Siiljiitian system of training inai>- plicable; separation of students of ))hiloso]ihy and theology in .St. Sulpice; average age of entrance into St. Sulpice; petits seminaires ; number of students in them, 123. Direc- tions of the Council of Trent on the subject of pre; aratorj- education ; preparatory seminaries in Ireland ; the ordin- ance of the Council contemplates an endov ed Church; St. .Sidpice the diocesan seminary of I’aris : Irish College in Paris, 124. Whether customary for Colleges to have class-books prepared by their own professors; little import- ance attached to the opinions of the text-l ooks ; Irish Col- lege in Paris—funds ; salaries ; control of the French government over the College; Maynooth ; combination of logic and philosophy classes advisable ; theology course not too extensive, 125. Instruction in Maynooth as to the duties of the confessional ; such subjects not dangerous when treated and studied professionally; actual vice, as found by experience, surpasses all the details of casuistry, 1 28. Duties of the confessional ; judicial function of the confessor; Dens' Theology; study of the department of moral theology referred to, essential ff)r the ] crformauce of the duties of the confessional, 127. Temporal power of the Poi>e; directing authority of the Pope in temporal mat- ters ; the Pope can in no circumstances release from alle- giance, 128. Reference to the Pope in ca.scs between sovereign and subject, 129. 130. Release by Poj;e Pius V. of subjects of Queen Elizabeth from their allegiance, referable to the public law of mediajval Europe ; authority of the Pope in matters of contract, 131. Declaratory power of the Pope iu cases between sovereign and subject, 132. VI ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. The Kev. JIatthew Kelly, Professor ofEnglisli andFrcncli : — Eesolution of 1829, as to oxaniiiiation in Englisli Gram- mar ; proficiency of the students at entrance in knowledge of English, 132, 133. Orthograpliy ; composition of ser- mons, 133. Prize essays; montldy essays ; correction of monthly essays ; numbers in witness’s class ; i>roposed division into two classes ; emploj’ment of Runboyne stu- dents in teaching, 134. French; examiners' at entrance ; state of preparation of students of late years; mode of clfecting rejection of those insufficiently prepared in Eng- lish ; method adopted with respect to algebra and geo- metry, 135. Iiuhdgence to persons of a more advanced age ; communications between professors and Trustees ; desirable to continue study of English in senior classes, and to have special course of lectures on pulpit oratory ; library for junior classes; selection of books for library; desirable to have good selection of books for junior classes ; witness's professorship combines two distinct professor- ships contemplated by the statutes, 136. Advuable to have distinct cliair of English elocution ; juacticability of teaching English and French by the same j)rofcssor ; pro- ficiency of the students in French ; other classes attended by those who attend the classes of English and French; amount of knowledge of French acquired, ) 37. Advisable and practicable that there should be an efficient test of English education at entrance ; and that tutorial aid should be given in witness’s class ; extensive instruction in English through the several classes; premiums for composition in every class; witness’s object to produce some first-rate English writers, and to stimulate English composition in junior classes; public reading — frequency of— time allotted for; exercises in recitation, 1.38. Criticism of subjects of private essays; subjects of English and French essays since witness’s appointment ; mode of instruction in gram- mar; number interrogated during one lectm'c ; portion of lecture occupied by professor’s expositions; two lectures ■weekly occupied by such expositions and catechetical in- stiaiction; a student might pass through the course without being examined in class more than once, 139. Instructions in rhetoric which occupy two lectures weekly during the remaining half of the year; improvement of preparatory schools ; want of practice of English composition in dio- cesan seminaries; temporal power of the Pope and the Church, 140. The Eev. WTlliaw Jennings, Professor of Logic : Course taught by witness; "V^alla’s logic; Latin the lan- guage of logic class ; one-third of ■nitness’s lectures in the form of prelections ; the remainder catechetical ; defi- iiition of logic, 140. Arrangement of logic lectures; Valla’s divisions; terms, propositions, argumentation, enthymeme anil induction, 141. Fallacies, sophisms; time allotted to logic ; proficiency made in that time ; knowledge of logic practically kept up by teaching in metaphysics and ethics; mctajihj-sics, time allotted for; metaphysics as understood at Majuooth ; class-book; German philosophy, 142. Language of class — English used to explain obscure passages; capacity of the students for employing Latin as a class language ; Sairit; Lewes; Comte; mode of teach- ing ethics at Maynooth ; nature of ethical lectures; text- book ; proposed combination of logic and philosojihy classes; class days, 143. Number of lectures in the week; witness educated in St. Jarlath's; study ofEnglisli at St. Jarlath’s; writing and spelling; Greek read at St. Jarlath's ; phi- losophy and theology taught at St. Jarlath’s before 1 84.5, but not since; examinations in witness’s class; each student examined for ten minutes only ; sufficiency of such examination as a test ; matter of interrogation at ordinary classes, at monthly revisions, 144. IMode of se- lecting Dunboyne students — witness’s opinion of; reasons against proposed change; school at Castlebar; doctrine taught as to morality of actions, 145. In what such morality consists; theory of motives; object of an act as distinct from the end or motive ; no end, however good, justifies the commission of evil, however slight ; illustration of this principle; selection of evil means when | an intellectual and when a moral defect, 146. Gpposite 1 doctrine discountenanced and condemned ; casuistry ex- I eluded from ethical teaching ; cases in which an oath ceases to bind ; no oath can be relaxed to the prejudice of the party in w hose behalf it was taken — not even by the Pope; declaratory power of the Pope as to the binding obligation of oaths ; elfect of such declaration by the Pope, 1 47 . Infallibilitj- in temporals not implied in this doctrine; supposed case of the Pope declaring oath of allegiance void ; absurdit j' of such a decision woidd deprive it of all value ; case of Pius V . and Queen Elizabeth ; conditions necessary to make such a decision of weight ; obligation involving thc_ rights of third persons cannot be dissolved without their consent ; recaiiitulation of witness’s opinions on fore- going points, 148. The Eev. Daniel :\I‘Carthy, Professor of Ehctoric Meaning of the term rhetoric; English the class lan- guage; class exercises, composition, spelling; correction of the exercises ; attention to the spelling of the exercises, 149. Greek and Latin dictionaries used ; dictionaries pos- sessed by th.e students ; duty of seeing that students are provideil with lexicons does not devolve upon any of the j Gollego authorities ; the onl}' rule as regards the pos- session of books is with respect to the Bible ; text-book alone used in class ; no arrangement for supplies of books to students, 150. Editions recommended; editions used in class; use of translations; Aristotle’s rhetoric, used both as an exorcise in Greek and in the matter it contains; method of its use; portions of Aristotle’s rhetoric read, 151 . Ignorance of logic an impediment to the proper teaching of rhetoric; time devoted to Aristotle; Thucydides — how far students capable of construing that author; mode of teaching, 152. “Agricola” ofTacitus; its connexion with the ancient geography of the British islands, 153. Longinus, how far mastered by students; Latin diction- aries; translation from dictation in class; written exercises, 154. Mode of treating c.xercises; eight or ten exercises selected, read out in class, and then corrected; exercises in English translation from classical authors; exercises brought the day but one after dictation to the pupils, 155. Lectures in geometry ; mode of conducting geometry lec- ture ; Darre’s 'I'reatise on Geometry — how tar it coincides with Euclid; mode of demonstration in class, 156. Alge- bra taught previously; gap in mathematical course during logic year; no attention paid to geometry in the logic year; proposal of combining logic and jjhilosophy classes; diffi- cidty suggested by witness of cll’ecting such combination ; bracketing of logic and philosophy classes, 157. Mode of obviating that difficulty; additional advantage of proposed plan, that metaph 3 'sical teaching would immediately pre- cede theology ; Greek ; inducements to keep up knowledge of Greek, 158. Eeferences to Greek text in works of Scrip- ture commentators; instances; suggestion of class of Bibli- cal Greek and Biblical Hermeneutics; improvements in the library since 1 845 ; number of volumes added; defective cataloguing, 159. Defective arrangement of books; defi- ciency of College librarj' in books of classical literature ; slight additions made in that department since 1845 ; intention of providing library for junior classes, 160. Increased supply of books b\- Dunboyne students since increased grant ; no special instruction as to composition of sermons given in witness’s class; nor in the art of catechetical instruction ; no special teaching on that sub- ject in Maynooth ; Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to tem- jioral power of the Pope or the Church; contrarj^ opinion never maintained at Maynooth to witness’s knowledge, 161. No reason to apprehend that contrary opinion is maintained bj' any student; teaching in Maj-nooth on that subject ; some poiver in temporal att’airs necessarily belongs to the ecclesiastical authority ; mode of teaching on that subject ; directive power of the Pope ; the Pope’s power spiritual in its end, its source, and its sanction, 162, 163. Dr. Dclahogue’s proposition true in the sense intended by him ; witness’s opinion involves neither the direct nor indirect temporal jiower of the Pope; exposition of wit- ness’s opinions on tlie .subject of the temporal power, 163. Neither the Pope nor the Church has the power, direct or indirect, of interfering with the sovereignly of the Queen over her subjects; no absolving or deposing iiower; right of ecclesiastical poever with respect to elections confined to explanation of duty; no right of directing vote for par- ticular candidate except when duty of sustaining that candidate is certain, 164. ’Ihe Eev. EicnAun IIackett, Junior Dean: — Distribution of dutj^ among the deans of superintending discipline ; number and situation of rooms under witness’s charge ; no special charge in other respects over the inmates of these rooms ; no special division of duty of superintend- ence at recreation ; public walks ; number of ; exemptions from, 165. Duration of; association of co-diocesans in after-dinner recreation ; custom not enforced by sanction ; attendance of deans on exercises out of class ; sermons by students; statute as to monthly literary exercises; monthly literary exercises discontinued— suiiplied by monthly revi- sions in class ; public disputations by Dunboyne students; employment of Dunboyne students in teaching, 166. In- conveniences felt by Dunboyne students from being em- ployed in lecturing ; supply of books possessed by students ; improvement in that respect since 1845; duty of deans to examine books of the students ; Dr. Brownson’s review; general nature of books possessed by students ; instructions in church ceremonies; monitors— number of, duties of, 167. As to officers taking meals with students; prece- dence of deans over professors, and over Prefect of Dun- boyne establishment ; distinction between matters spi- ritual .and temporal; Dr. Delahogue’s proposition in- variably maintained, 168. Dr. Brownson's Eeview; reli- gious instruction imparted b}' deans to .students ; festivals on which religious instruction is given ; instructions given on fir.st Sunday of the month; nature of instruction given on Fridays, Wednesdays, and Sund.ays ; time occupied in these instructions; nature of instruction given on eve of festivals; distribution of this duty among the deans, 169. Ecligious instruction given to senior house ; week’s retreat at Pentecost ; times of such instruction to senior students; spiritual lecture to junior students on Sunday mornings ; books read ; rule of Trustees as to training in religious ceremonies not yet in operation, 170. Singing classes - numbers in ; instruction in composition of sermons; ser- mons preached bj' students— criticisms on ; instruction in ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. vii entrance cxainination ; Greek Testament read at school ; witness, when at scliool, directed to l)urn ids English Testil- nient ; had no co])y of New 'I’estament at Maynooth ; mode of conducting divinity lectures in class, 188. Definition of the Chnrch; witness’s opinion of entire drift of teaching; religious instruction ; instruction in j)ractical dutiesof life; teaching in this resj)ect excellent ; conversation with Pre- sident on leaving; correspondence — no reason to su])pose int(‘rferencc with ; one instance of letter being reatl to College authorities, 1 6 h. Not treated unkindly by fellow stmlents in conseciucncc of change of opinion ; witness passed through Trinity College; moral and religious teach- ing of deans satisfactory ; as to possessi(jn of Hibles by students ; custom of association among co-diocesans ; the Bible — reading of, at dinner; uncovering at the Sacred Name, 190. Old Testament read at dinner; noise neces- sarily occurred during that reading; occupations of witness after leaving Maynooth ; his religious habits .at that time; College officers in witness’s time, 191. Circumstances which led to witne.ss's doubts respecting traiisubstantia- tioii; mode of administering oath, 192. Rev. "Waltek Lee, d.d., Dc.an: — catechising; desirable that senior students should be in- structed in composition of sermons and cateebising; ailvice to young men on leaving College as to their conduct on the mission, 171. The Rev. James O’Kane, Junior Dean: — Decrease in number of students who remain during v.a- cation ; personal intercourse hetween deans and students ; witness in charge of i)ortion of the senior house; desirable that each student shovdd have a separate room ; already the case as to senior students ; might be arrangcil as to junior students ; incre.ased supjjly of books by students of late years ; preliminary education of witness ; Armagh seminary, 172. Training in classics there ; composition; entrance examin.ations — attendance of examiners at ; ascer- taining fitness of students for ministry ; President's Council for deciding as to giving of orders ; fitness for orders ascer- tained by observance of general conduct ; conversations between deans and young men, 173. College st.atutes rc.ad aloud at commencement of v’car only ; provisions of sta- tute as to assistance of deans at exercises out of cla.ss ; monthly exercises disused — monthly revisions instead ; '] President present at them ; ])rovisions of st.atutes as to sermons by students, and familiar explanations of rudi- ments of faith ; four sermons on each Sunday— .attendance of superiors at them ; ))rovision as to explanation of rudi- ments of faith not carried into effect otherwise than by above sermons, 174. Monthly revisions c.arried on as ordinary classes, but with liability to be examined in matter of preceding month ; examin.ations; premiums and honors aw.arded at summer examinations ; deans take part in the ex.aminations; deans visit students .at study, both in their rooms and in the study-halls; visits of deans to students’ rooms ; periods of; duration of; mature of, 175. Periods of study in the study-halls, and in the students’ rooms ; visited once a day in the lualls ; visits unexpected ; inspection of books used ; .advice as to studies ; nature of visits to study-halls ; number of study-halls ; monitor presides in studj'-hall in dean’s absence; .admonitions in c.ase of breach of order, 176. But one violation of order reported since witness bec.ame de.an ; attention and assi- duity of students ; improvement in the character and con- dition of the rooms ; larger supply of books ; improvement in furniture of rooms; health of students; duty of dean in case of illness; infirmaries — state of; comparative com- fort of infirmary and students rooms; baths; case of recent de.ath of a student, 177. Students put into new rooms too soon; no tire-phace in new rooms ; ventilation; d.ampness of new rooms — whether c.ause of illness of student in question, 178. C.ause of delay of medical attendance; resident medical .attend.ant ; case of sudden illness .at night ; means of obtaining medical assistance ; condition of the infirmary, 179. Serv.ants .attending the infirm.ary ; Dr. Corrig.an’s visits ; Dr. O’Kelly’s permission obtained for students to consult Dr. Corrig.an ; frequency of Dr. Cor- rig.an's visits; Surgeon Ellis — his fees; Dr. Corrig.an’s salary ; visits of Mr. O’Kelly, senior, .and Mr. O’Kelly, junior; contemplated removal of infirmary ; residence of the deans, 180. Instruction by the deans in composition of sermons and mode of conveying catechetical instruction ; no such instruction except criticism on Sunday sermons ; whether sermons are uniformly the composition of the students themselves; instruction on that subject in class of English rhetoric, 181. Advice to students .as to the performance of their duties on the mission ; advice as to poUtical matters ; Dr. Delahogue’s jiroposition as to tem- poral power of the Pope or Church ; no reason to believe that any contr.ary doctrine prevails; ‘-Dr. Brownson’s Review” prohibited as coming under the denomination of a periodical; Dr. Delahogue’s doctrine inculcated .as a truth to bo embraced and believed ; complaint among the students with respect to medic.al attendance, 182. Dissa- tisfaction that Dr. Ellis was not c.alled in oftener, 183. The Rev. John O'Callaghan : — . Witness entered in logic class; his previous education; had not reached the ‘-Church’’ tract in Maynooth; left M.aynootli in the beginning of the thir.l year; cause of, and circumstances attending, his leaving, 183. Loyalty not infused— instance. Lord Normanby s visit in 1836; Dr. M’'hitehead’s speech ; recollects no other instance of any political demonstration; Dr. Renelian present and sang — other persons present; origin of feast, 184. Object of— duration of; quantity of wine allowed ; Dr. tVliite- head’s speech — whether likely to be overlooked by Dr. Montague, 185. Joined the Established CLurch ten ye.ars ago; mentioned occurrence at first seven years ago; other instance of m.anifestation of feeling ; student .arrested for seditious language; Mr Ilawkes’ speeches; talcing of oaths of allegiance; nature of i\Ir. Ilawkes’ speeches, 186. Not treasonable but seditious ; o.ath of allegiance ; case of the student arrested and bailed before the Duke of Leinster; re.ading of Bible at dinner — imperfectly he.ard, and why ; witness believes (from present knowledge .and experience) that above arrangement was made to prevent Bible being heard; witness never possessed a Bible, 187. Not aware <.f rule that each student should possess a Bible; books lent bv students to one another; left College at nineteen ; scriptur:‘il instruction by dean ; cause of witness changing his faith ; IIischargeofjuniorhou.se, 192. But not exclusively ; visits to students’ rooms; increase, since 1845, in number •of books possessed by students; .ad vice .as to studies; nature of visits; greater tacility .as to discipline in junior house, on account of smaller number of students ; advantage of having sep.ar.ate rooms, 193. Suggestion as to further division of the College — that scheme (piite practicable; inconvenience of large numbers dining together; general duties of witness; witness’s course of moral instruction; practice in other colleges for superiors to dine with students ; adoption of that practice in M.aynooth would require re- construction of entire College sj-stem, 194. IVliy; system of free intercourse between superiors and students jire- fer.able; impediments to its introduction at M.aynooth; dinner; reading of Scripture .at dinner, 195. As to clothing I'rofessors with authority of deans ; no deans in St. Sulpice ; intercourse between superiors and students in hours of re- cre.ation ; difficulty of introducing suggested changes, 1 96. Special training on the Continent for system adopted there ; ilifficulty of hearing Scripture read at dinner, owing to size of refectory; object of re.ading .Scripture at dinner; possession of Bibles by students ; arrangement for supply- ing students with Bibles, 197. Dutj- of Bursar in that respect ; regulation enforced ; instruction in preaching ; confined to junior classes; desir.able for divinity students; art of catechising; exercises in composition of sermons — criticisms on — instruction conveyed b}' ; exercise not per- formed more than once aye.ar by each student, 198. Sys- tem defective in these resj)ects ; students preach according to rot.ation; infirmary: — state of; baths in; number of stu- dents in during last winter; during p)revious winter ; acconi modation in; visits of deans to; inquiries made on visits; visits of medic.al .attendants to; infirmarian, 199. Duties of; names of for last five year’s ; whether .attend.ance on the sick s.atisfactory on the whole ; nurses ; yearly average of deaths in College ; general chara'.'ter of complaints ; Dr. Corrigan’s visits ; average of deaths, including those who leave College in ill health ; complaints by students .as to medic.al .attendance, 200. Duty of deans as to medical attendance ; daily list of sick furnished by medical attend- ant ; leave of absence from lectures ; mode of obtaining permission to go to infirmary; no report besides daily list, except in special cases, 201. Mode of ascert.aining stu- dents’ absences from cl.ass ; no list of those .absent from class through illness ; attend.ance of surgeon ; Dr. O’Kelly decides as to surgeon’s attend.ance ; payment of surgeon ; advis.able to have daily list of those in the infirm.ary, sjie- cifving complaints, &c.. Laid before President ; as to spirit of disloy.alty, 202. Instance during 1 847 or 1848; intended address to Mr. J. O'Connell prevented by President ; no recurrence of tluat spirit; passed aw.ay with the excitement of th.at period ; exhortations to students as to devotion to clerical duties ; instructions as to obedience to superiors impressed upon them, but not allegiance specifically; why; taking of oath of allegi.ance, 203. tustruction as to taking the oath ; mode of administering, 204. Person taking the oath bound, notwithstanding deviation or omission ; Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to the temporal power invari- ably maintained .at Maj-nooth, 205 , The Rev. Robert Efrench Whitehead, d.d., Vice-Presi- dent : — List of clergy ordained from IMaynooth ; suggestion of additional Professor of Biblical Greek and of .Sacreil Or.a- tory, 205. S.acred or.atory ; use of French sacred orators ; composition of sermons by students ; four sermons on each Sunday at present; defective pre.aching owing, in tiie opinion of witness, more to a w.ant of care than of c.apacity ; diinculty of having sermons more frequently ; c;Ltechising, 206. IVitness’s own instructions; character of sermons delivered at Maynooth ; religious instruction by deans — annu.ali-etreat ; health of students; unfitness of senior infirmary ; medical attendance ; listof sick ; object of preparing list; absence of sick from class; no ruport of state of the house to the superiors, 207. Whether students are satisfied with medical attendance; doctor’s visits; visits AXALYSIS OF EVIDENCE viii of consulting physician ; notification of ; acquaintance of the ileans with illness of students ; suggestion of daily written statement from medical attendant ; witness’s opi- nion of, tins. Employment of student as intirmarian ; patients visited by Ifr. Corrigan in sitting-room of infir- mary ; removal of sick students to infirmary ; ])ermission of deans required; no dispensary in tlic College, Illness of the student who recently died originated in his having a damp room ; com])laints of the chest and lungs chiefly prevalent at Maynooth; frequent occurrence of consumption ; want of means of airing the students' linen; washing of the linen ; difiieulty of adopting proper means of airing linen ; new buildings not yet coinidetely dry ; alleged cause the want of suflicient mortar between the stones, arising from desire for external neatness of appear- ance. :210, 21 1. Effects of damp on bed-clothes and dressof students; suggestion of heating apparatus ; gas: intended residence of the Adce-I’resident in new buildings; his present residence; entry of rain— cause; iron windows not wateiqiroof; rooms still unpapered; rooms finished as regards masonry, plastering, and carpentry work ; some rooms still unoccupied; why? 211. Means of warming corridors and apartments ; erfects of increased grant on accommodation of students ami professors ; previous incon- vetuence of having a number of students in the same room : better supply of books; entrance fee; books neces- sary for students at entrance; the Bible; more kindly spirit among the students, and among professors; speech alleged to have been made by the Vice- President at feast on occasion of Lord INIulgrave’s visit; Vice Presidovit did speak, but in no such language or spirit as alleged, 2 1 2, 213. lJuty of the authorities to interfere and repress any such language; President was present; improbability of any such speech as alleged having been spoken ; nature of the festival; commemoration of Lord Mulgrave's visit; seven- teen years ago ; period of the day ; duration of feast ; could not have lasted be.vond eight o'clock: ipiantity of wine--three bottles to eight students. 21.3. Wine allowed on Christmas day and St. Patrick's da v ; singing; cheer- ing Mr. O'Connell in 1835; practice as to taking oath of allegiance; written promise by students against belonging to a secret society, 214. Signature in College register to which promise is j)refixed ; in whose presence subscribed ; no book containing duties of students except the Kegula Pietatis; students usually have a copy of the Kegula Pietatis ; statutes read once aj-ear; duty of one of the deans to accompany students to take oath of allegiance; words of promise against belonging to secret societies ; every jirofessor had been a student, and all the officers, except Senior Dean, 215, 215. As to exercise of catechising in parish church; might interfere with other duties, or be done negligently ; preparation requisite for such exercise ; whether that is not an argument for the practice; prepa- ration found in theological studies; witness's reasons against the adoption of the practice ; catechetical instruc- tion given by witness to junior students; retreats — at entrance — at Pentecost, 21ij. Exercises during retreat ; silence during; conductors of retreat during last ten or twelve years ; pastoral theology ; treatise De Obligationi- bus Statuum ; instructions preparatory to ordination; retreats of junior and senior students, combined as to hearing discourses, but not otlierwise ; nature of dis- courses ; two discourses daily; all students not obliged to attend Pentecost retreat ; training generally as to pastoral duties, 217. Hr. Butler’s Catechism taught by witness; instruction as to sacerdotal state and duties given in course of that teaching, tmd in teaihing Bible; duties of priests as citizens ; classes instructed by witness, 2Io. Comnni- nication between students and their spiritual directors ; retreats when conducted by members of Society of Jesus ; system of retreats exists in every ecch siastical establish- ment ; instruction given by deans; cldefly by Senior Dean ; at morning anil evening prayer to senior house; no rule requiring deans to give instiuction at specllied times, 219. Instructions to junior house from half-past live to six, twice a week; time occupied in ; nature of; Presi- dent and Vice-President do not attend; duties of priests as citizens, 22(1. Dr. Delahogue's proposition invaritibly maintained at !M:tyno;ith ; no officer in the College main- tains a diH'crent doctriiic ; nor any student, to witness’s knowledge or belief; Dr. Brownson's Keview; mode of treating question of the Church's temporal power by the j)rofessors; want of waiting room for the students' friends, 221. State of infirmary — no representations to Trustees on that subject, 222. The Very Kev. L. F. Reneiiax, d.d., President:— Kctiirns of ordinations in College; many receive lower orders in College, and priesthood alterwards ; li^t of sub- deacons gives nearest approximation to actual number of priests who were Maynooth students ; some priests received no orders at all in the College ; no ])erson whatever has canonical power to send a student to another country ; student may, with his bi-hoji’s leave, volunteer on such a mission, 222. Of priests in England and Scotland, about twenty-five received their education at Maynooth ; annual average of Maynooth students wl.o go to other countries; proportion of Irish priests who were educated at iMaynooth on the increase ; suggestion of increased intercourse be- tween professors and pupils ; not advi.sable in the present constitution of the College; disadvantages of, 223. Dimi- nution of respect for authority ; useful infiuence of profes- sors would not be increased ; as to praidice of associating with co-diocesans ; association with dill'erent companions at dilferent periods of recreation, viz., co-diocesans after dinner; class-fellows after first lecture; indiscriminately after breakfast; com])auions chosen according to appoint- ment after sujjper ; practice neither encouraged nor dis- couraged by College authorities, 224. IVlietiier violation of practice woidd be remarked ; wotdd not lead to a refusal of orders ; have not heard of a monitor animad- verting upon violation of practice; but iiersevcrance in such violation would be considered a j)eculiarity ; fusion between students from difi'ereiit parts of Ireland advantti- geous; suggestion of iirofessors joining in religious exer- cises, 225. Objections to the jiroposal that professors and pu[iils should take their meals together; whether profes- sors take any part in disciiiline of College; duties as to discipline imposed on professors by statutes; ■whether it would be considered an impropriety for professors to visit the students in their rooms ; would be considered singular, 22C. Duty of professors to have their pupils modest and docile; refers to their conduct in cl.ass; ])ropriety of a ■[irufessor noticing any serious disorder taking place under his eyes, and of speaking authoritatively to the student in such a case; as to alleged inconvenience arising from pre- cedence of deans over professors; nothing strange or un- usual in such an arrangement, 227. Kelation of professors and pupils in lecture room tiot aft'ected cither wa}- by dis- connexion of professors with discipline; as to professors conducting public walks ; no such c;ise has ever occurred; inadvisable that superiors should dine with students on festival days; analogy of Oxford anil Cambridge does not apply ; as to raising standard of education at entrance, 228. Desinible to raise the standard in Etiglish; to what extent; more rigorous examination for higher classes; suggested combination of logic and natural philosoiffiy classes ; such combination inexpedient in the opinion of the President, and his reasons, 229. Objections to present system ; suggested proposal ■would not be an improvement, and why, 230. Chemistry — absence of instruction in; geology ; course of natural philosophy taught by Dr. Callan ; course before Christmas ; after Christmas ; nine lectures weekly^; agricultural chemistry; geology; natural history; his lectures iirelectionary, combined with calls; text-books, 231. Possession of text-books by students; no scrutiny by the authorities as to possession of books by students; certain class-books must be jirocured by students at entrance; class-books in logic, metaphysics, and ethics ; the Bible ; specification of tlie books required to be possessed by the students, 232. Books read during study hours; qualifications for Dunboync students; dis- tinctions in all the classes taken into consideration; no depreciation of studies unrepresented on Council ; order of mathematical lectures ; number in class; suggestion of giving option of choice between several courses disap- proved of; Professor Gillic’s suggestion of making attend- ance in course of Greek during senior years necessary for Dunboyne candidates desirable, if practicable, 233. Profi- ciency of Dunboyne students in Greek; whether sufficient encouragement is given to keeping up knowledge of Greek; indirect efl'ect of study of Greek upon general tone of mind; whether suflicient attention to English literature ; general reading of theological books in French and English, 234. French preachers ; publication of books by jirofessors ; expediency of encouraging ; want of text-books in mural theology adapted to this country ; desirable that professors should publish such works ; arrangement of course of theology by President, Vice-Presiclent, and Theological Professors; jirovision of statutes; President's Council differs from Council referred to in above statute, 235. Treatises at present in use composed by professors, whetlier approved of as required by statutes ; ])rovision of statutes ,as to arrangement of general courses of study, now at an end; withdrawal of Ikiilly by Trustees; no treatise yet adopted as a permanent substitute; no council held to re- gulate course of studies, the course being permanent ; as to consulting professors on adoption of text-books; pro- fessors recommended Scavini as a substitute for Bailly, 23(). M’hether desirable that class books should be pre- pared embodying definite course of teaching of College, so ns to serve for reference on mission ; impropriety of fetter- ing opinion on questions left fr.e by the Church ; amount of authority attached to text-books ; questions in which the State is interested, 237. .Moral theology does not admit of such a definite line of teaching as dogmatic; liberty in questions of casuistry ; mode of proceeding if professor were anxious to publish a treatise and have it adopted as a class book; Councils existing in the College; I’resident’s Council; Council of discipline ; Councils of studies not now in action, 238. IVhether Professor of Ecclesiastical History should not have a seat in the Coun- cil; no direct concursus for Dunboyne students; all Pro- fessors of Theology bound by third clause of fifth chajiter of the statutes, 2'J!i. IVhether observance of that statute inquired into at vi.«itations ; promise by jirofessors to obey the laws; extern ajijiointed jinfessor takes oath of alle- giance, and signs declaration at end of statutes ; at what time doctrine mentioned in above statute is inculcated; AIS\VLYSIS OF EVIDENCE. IX positive duty to do so ; Dr. Deluliogiie’s proposition inva- rial)ly maintained, 240. Improvements in College since inerea.sed grant ; tendency of former condition of College to lower tone of manner among the students; importance of iini)roveinent ; feast on Lord Mulgrave’s visit in 18.3() : circumstances under which feast was given; Dr. Kenehan was not j)resent ; remembers having been engaged else- where. 241. If he had sung on that occasion he could not forget it ; origin of the feast ; usmil duration of such feasts; speech made by a student namedt I’Sullivan.whoafterwards left the College, 242. Case of llawkes; O'Sullivan gone to America; jmblic excitement at that jicriod ; no ])olitical speeches permitted to be delivered within the College; contemplated addi'css to Mr. John O'Connell sui)j>ressed bv the superiors and jmblicly censured, 243. yujiplying oi' students with lliblcs, 244. The “Very Eev. Miletius G.vffney, d.d., Senior Dean: — Duties of the deans -arr.angemcnt as to visiting the student.s’ rooms ; ])racticahility of placing a certain number of the students under the s])eeial charge of e.ach dean; further division of the College nece.ssary, and for that purpose most desirable ; jiracticabilit}' of effecting further division, 244. dVhether j)artial separation could he effected in the meantime; as.sociation with co-diocesans; proposed division as well of junior as of senior house; junior house could not be divided without new buildings; difticulty of effecting partial scpar.ation, 24.5. Suggested division ; tutorial sj'stcm ; efficiency of teaching in junior classes ; employment of the Duidioyne students ; Dunboyne students at present supply the place of absent professors, 24ti. Third chissical year desirable ; Hebrew class; visits | to the students’ rooms ; ecclesiastical chant ; teacher of i singing; want of an organ, 247. Separation I etween students and professors ; .system at St. Sulpice ; in Home ; | All-llallows; difficulty of effecting desired intercourse be- tween ])rofessors and .students by rc:ison of the difi'erence in their hours ; suggestion that superiors should take their meals in common hall with the students, 248. Good cfl’ccts to be expected from such change ; relation between deans and students ; after dinner separation into groups of co-diocesans po})ular among the students, 249. Itiet ; re- creation before dinner ; medical attendance ; fees to medi- cal officers, 2)0. Committee of the senior students; form;ition of this committee ; contents of the memorial of the students; reception room for their friends, 251. Stu- dents who left the College in consequence of illness; case of student who lately (lied, 252. Premiums; suggested change in mode of giving ju'emiums ; all the three students called to premiums .should get tliem, 254. Pre- ference of witness for St. .Sulpice, and his reasons ; its success; its paternal discipline; its order and regularity ; the previous training of its .students in petits seminaires; its spirit of charity and freedom from faction and cabal ; its theological teaching; its ecclesiastical spirit : petits seminaires, 255. Course in the French colleges ; Roman seminaries ; caraaratas, 256. Advice to students as to their conduct on the mission ; politics; intended address by the students to Mr. John O’Connell; Lord Mulgrave's visit — feast in the College on the occasion, 257. The feast on that occasion was not kept up till eleven o'clock, as all the students were at pr.ayer at nine o’clock; religious instruction, 258. Mr. Jacob Owen, Architect to the Board of lYorks: — 'Witness’s function in erection of new buildings limited to general inspection of work done,for ascertaining amount of instalments payable, 259. Witness’s opinion of the works ; damp ; to what attributable ; absence of fire-places ; want of ventilation ; means of curing; windows ; supply of light, of air. 260. 261 . Cost of repairs ; duty of Board of ■Works as to buildings; their practice; cxxKuise of i)utting new buildings in efficient condition ; means of heating stoves; gas ; hot water, 261. Firc-ifiaces ; window sashes; dampness of students’ sleeping ajiartments ; of Vice-Presi- dent’s apartments, 262. Liability to fire ; value of work done ; exi)cnse not increased by .architectural appearance of building ; expense of fitting up library ; state of infirmary ; drainage; sewerage; arningcmcnts for airing linen, 263. Mr. Coleman Galvin, Divinity Student: — Witness from Galway ; his education before entering Maynooth ; mathematics ; English ; entrance examina- tion; Greek; Latin, 266. Teaching in Maynooth as to spiritual and temporal power ; temporal power; teaching by Professor of Ecclesiastical History ; portion of moral theology deferred till termination of course; instruction in composition of sermons ; sermons i)reaehed by students, 267. Criticisms on ; value of; teaching on, in English class ; instruction in art of catechising ; infirmary ; want of accommodation in ; dissatisfaction of students with medical attendance, 268. Mr. Tuomas O’Connor, Divinity Student; — Witness from Sligo; his previous education; English, 268. Possession of Bible ; how furnished to him ; Bible class; portions of Bible read; ecclesiastical liistory, 269. Mr. Christopher Carroll, Divinity Student : — Witness from Galway ; jirevious education ; English ; French, 269. Physics; Greek; Latin, 270. The Rev. Patrick Lavei.le, Dunboyne Student ; — IV'itucssfrom Mayo; previous education, 270 . Entrance examination; Greek; Scrii)ture class; Scri])tiire alw.ays studied witli Greek Testament; Hebrew; mode of con- ducting theology class; trcati.se De Eeclesi:i ; temiioral and .sjjiritual ])ower, 271. 'I’eachiug as to whether alle- giance can bo relaxed or annulled ; ])rcsent concurrence of divines as to the temporal iwiwcr of the Pope ; advocates of the indirect temiioral power restrict it to sovereigns within the pale of tlie Church; declaratory power, a mis- taken view, 272. Elections; priest could not declare it a sin to vote one way or anotlier ; why; no discussion upon this matter at Maynooth; instruction as to duties of jirie.sts, and specifically as to their duties in Ireland, 273, 274. In- struction as to cleric.al duties ; jirovision of the statutes as to inculcation of allegiance ; whether carried out; tre.at- nicnt of heretics; Bulla Camm not published here; its ]mblication in a volume of Dens’ Theology does not give it the force of formal x)ublication, 274. Treatment of heretics, 275. Jlr. John Madden, Divinity Student ; — Previous education of witness ; instruction in duties of subjects ; in composition of sermons, 275. Association witli co-diocesans ; instruction as to religious duties ; infir- m.ary ; possession of Bible. 276. Parts of Serijjture re.ad; re.ading of Scripture; meditation; Biblical lectures; ad- vice as to study of Scripture, 277. The Rev. Patf.ick Lavelle, Dunboyne Student : — Indelicate portions of moral theology — mode of instruct- ing in, 277. Never interrogated in class uj)on this matter ; mode of teaching; extract from Scaviui; subject touched in the spirit of tli.at e.xtract, 278. Mr. D.vniei. Slattery, Divinity Student : — Witness from Kerry; his xu'evious education; medical attendance in Maynooth, 278. Infirmary — medical attend- ance in; witness’s ox)inion of; defects of; instance of surgeon not being called in, in a grave case ; surgical at- tendance — how xjrocured ; inconvenience which results, 279. IMedical department ; election of Comndttee of Se- nior Divinity Class ; x>ractice sanctioned by Trustees ; how chosen; junior house takes no xiart ; association with co- dioces.ans ; how far a binding custom ; difference in the functions of the monitors in the senior and junior house, 280 . State of the infirmary ; axixdic.ation respecting ; management ofintirmary; intirmarian; new buildings — state of; whether students desire to go to the infirmary to avoid the cold of their rooms, 281. State of new build- ings; treatise “De Ecclesia;” Professor Crolly’s mode of teaching ; teaching as to allegiance ; distinct teaching as to the I’ope’s temporal power, 282. Teaching as to alle- giance, 283. Jlr. .Tames Flannelly and Mr. Patrick Hurley, Divinity Students First witness from Mayo, diocese of Tuam ; his educa- tion xireviously to entering iMaynooth ; :it Ballinrobe ; at St. Jarlath’s College ; Euclid, English, French, 283, 284. Second witness from Clare ; his education previously to entering Maynooth — in Greek, arithmetic, alge’ora, Eng- lish, French; state of infirmary, 284. School in Kill.aloe; school in Ballinrobe ; grounds of complaint on the part of the students ; want of fixed tribunal to appeal to ; excel- lence of the discipline ; Committee of Senior Divinity Stu- dents known to the authorities, 285. Teaching .as to .alle- giance ; treatment of heretics ; Dunboyne Establishment, whether an object of desire to the students ; Dr. Dela- liogue’s proposition as to temporal power maintained in the College ; delicate portions of moral theology not read by first witness ; second witness ex:unined as to, 286. This study postxioned ; temi)oral power of the Pojie ; Dunboyne Establishment ; m:itters comi)lained of in College ; state of infirmary ; convenience of students not sufficiently con- sulted ; life too sedentary ; want of a little exercise before dinner, 287. Recreation— public w.alks, 283. Mr. [Michael O’Sullivan, Dunboyne Student: — Previous education of witness ; school in Killarney ; other schools in the diocese; English exercises in May- nooth ; Greek and Latin exercises, 288. Time absorbed by Dunboyne studies ; Hebrew ; as to tc.aching of junior classes by Dunboyne students; recurrence to classics; tempor.al and spiritual power; spiritual power over here- tics ; want of reception-room ; of common reading-room ; indelicate portions of moral theology ; treatment of and advice respecting, 289. Compo.'^ition of sermons, 290. The Rev. Edward Fag.an, Dunboyne Student ; — AVitness from diocese of Meath ; his xuevious education ; school at Mountnugent ; diocesan seminary at Navan, 290. teaching at Navan seminary ; no time devoted there to English by witness ; French ; instructions in composition of a sermon at Maynooth ; ecclesiastical history ; Scrip- ture; Hebrew; temporal and sifiritual power, 29) . Autho- rity as to oath of allegiance ; Dr. Delahogue’s i)roposition regarding the temjioral x^ower ; supposition of sentence of deposition at present: duty in that case; sui)Xiosed excom- munication ; its invalidity, 292. Efl'ect of excommunica- tion, 293 a 2 X ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. The Eev. Charles M'Auley, Dunboyne Student: — Previous education of witness ; school at Glcnarm ; at Downpatrick ; diocesan seminary at Belfast ; English composition, 293. Belfast diocesan seminary ; possibility of Dimboyne students assisting in teaching ; keeping up of classical knowledge ; amount of leisure enjoyed by Dunboyne students, 294. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to the temporal power ; duties of priests in temporal mat- ters ; Dr. Hurray’s exhortation ; treatment of heretics ; taking of oath of allegiance, 29.'». Indelicate portions of moral theology — cautions as to study of, 29(j. The Eev. Patrick O’Dossell, Dunboyne Student : — Witness from Tipperary ; his previous education ; Thurles College ; instruction in English iu Thurles, 296. Tempo- ral power, 297. The Eev. Thomas Cahill, Dunboyne Student: — • Ilis previous education ; Carlow College — studies of lay and ecclesiastical students in; distinctions obtained by students of, at London University ; theological class-books in ; studies of ecclesiastical house; of lay house, 297, 298. Pupils in ; intended for foreign missions ; course of theo- logy in ; written e.xercises ; instruction in Ma 3 mooth as to composition of a sermon ; criticisms on students’ sermons, 298. Temporal power of the I'ope : students who have gone on foreign missions— number of; indelicate j)ortions of moral theology ; instruction as to study of ; great re- serve respecting these subjects, 299. The Eev. Daniel Leahy, Clerical Superiiitendent of the “English Church Missions to Eoman Catholics — Witness educated at Maj-nooth ; entered in ) 8.32, in rhetoric class, 299, 300. Completed college course ; his previous education ; officers of College in witness’s time ; whether instructed in duties of a subject; impression on the subject of allegiance kept up in the minds of the stu- dents ; no instruction on that subject ; no teaching adverse to duty of allegiance; Dr. Dclahogue’s proposition held by Dr. O'llanlon, 300. No recollection of opposite doc- trine being taught; Bailly’s teaching on duties of subjects; oath of allegiance gainsaid by witness in taking, and why ; afterwards informed that he was bound by oath, notwithstanding; mode of taking oath ; effect on witness’s mmd of ueneral tone of College, 301. Time of taking oath ; religious teaching in interval ; no instruction as to obligation of oath, or duties of subjects in that time; impressions created by association with students ; But- ler’s Catechism ; doctrine as to oaths or contracts with heretics ; general impression on mind of witness, as to ob- ligation of oaths to heretics; witness left Slaynooth with impression that such an oath was binding, 302. Taught that where rights of third parties are involved, oat’ns can- not be dispensed with ; latitude of opinion upon disputed questions; religious instruction ; teaching as to sixth pre- cept in E. C. Decalogue; text-book on; mode of teaching; instructions as to study of ; the Bible ; lectures on Sacred Scriptures, their nature, amount read, 303, 304. Consid- ers instruction in that department defective ; mode of conducting Scripture class ; Greek Testament ; other de- ficiencies in teaching ; pliysics class, 304. Scriptural education ; instruction in ivriting sermons ; did not iireach when on mission ; directions of Council of Trent as to preaching; teaching on sixth precept, and matrimony treatise ; injurious tendency of ; reason for this opinion ; extent of injurious tendency as discerned bj’ witness ; re- pugnance of students to these matters ; contrary effect on others, 305. Signs of levity exhibited on one or two occa- sions ; power of the Pope ; education defective from teach- ing exclusive tenets of the K. C. Church ; preparation in English ; personal discipline ; evil effects resulting from teaching at Maynooth ; whetlier such result observed in fact ; witness’s impression ; knew about two persons in the College with very carnal minds ; witness’s conviction as to Maynooth, 306. What occurred at Maynooth led to immoral conduct subsequently on the mission ; the two carnal-minded persons expelled, or obliged to leave Col- lege, 307. The Eev. Denis Leyne Brasbie ; — Previous education of witness ; his entrance into May- nooth ; studies there ; professors ; teaching as to duty to Sovereign ; taking the oath of allegiance ; instruction as to allegiance, 307. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition, not re- membered by witness ; witness’s opinion of teaching gene- [ rally; Scripture education ; every student on tlie establish- ment furnished with a Bible; composition of sermons ; teaching as to treatment of heretics ; as to keeping faith with heretics ; allegiance to heretic sovereigns ; witness’s impression, how produced, 308. Mr. Kenny s sermon ; feast on the occasion of Emancipation being granted, 309. No teaching contraiy to allegiance ; removal of manuple before the “ Domine salvum;” the cause; not aware that same course is adopted in Eoman Catholic countries ; prayers read before mass; witness’s observation as to teaching in Maj nooth ; his action for libel against the President ; Sir Eobert Peel’s statement in Parliament, i uncontrailictcd by College authorities, 310, 311. ilatri- I mony treatise ; witness lectured on that subject by Dr. | O’Hanlon; his mode of treating it; effects of this teaching on the students’ minds, 311. The Eev. William John Burke : — Education of witness ; ordained before completing theo- logical course ; his conduct during agrarian disturbances ; joined the Protestant Church in 1844 ; theological studies in iMaynooth ; matrimony treatise ; oath of allegianee, 312. Eeigning of sickness to avoid; mode of taking; Bible ; instructions as to obligation of oath of allegiance ; impression on witness’s mind on that subject, 313. In- structions as to dispensing power; witness’s impressions; that interdict in reign of Elizabeth never has been re- moved; witness’s reason for believing that oaths to here- tics do not bind; two reasons for oath of allegiance not binding; no distinct teaching as to allegiance; Dr. Dela- hogue’s proposition, 314. Lectured upon at Maynooth; but author was Gallican ; professor, ultramontane ; con- demnation of books and persons of heretics ; putting off manuple after high mass; Domine salvum “whack” re- gem; prayer for the Queen before mass; not read in witness’s time ; grounds of witness’s inference that alle- giance was not due to a Protestant monarch ; feast on occasion of Emancipation ; Dr. England’s song — reception of, 315. Whether any proposition from which witness drew inference that major e.xcommunication and interdict rendered oath of allegiance not binding; witness refers to instance of his father’s loyalt>'; witness left Maynooth a rebel of the first water ; infers nature of instruction from change in his own feelings ; never joined in prayer for spiritual benefit of heretics ; prayer-books possessed by witness, 316. Dr. O’llanlon’s caution in giving his oi>inion in class; its origin; Scripture studies, 317. Witness re- fers to ‘ ‘ the Church of Eome ; ” extracts given by witne.^s to account for impressions on his mind as to effect of e.x- communication and interdict, 318. Eeference to Bailly on censures; reference to Cabassutius, 319. Continuation of extracts, 320. Whether Christian burial denied in fact ; rule not enforced in Ireland ; why ; continuation of ex- tracts— Bailly ; causes jireventing and excusing from ob- ligation of oaths ; four cases in which promises can be relaxed or commuted according to St. Thomas, 321. Seven causes of dispensation witli vows ; inference of the author of the “ Church of Eome” that these seven causes prevent the obligation of an oath ; because dispensing l>ower exists both as to oaths and vows ; refers to Dr. McHale’s evidence in 1826 ; passage in Bailly refers to vows, not directly to oaths, 322. Proofs required of state- ment that same causes of dispensation apply to oaths as well as vows ; former answer repeated ; because dispensing power exist as to both, it must, of necessity, be exercised as to both, under the same circumstances ; difference be- tween oaths and vows ; whether oath involving the right of a third party can be dispensed with ; effect of pontifical Laws and edicts, respecting faith and morals, 323, 324. 'Tenth article of creed of Pope PiusIV. ; third canon of fourth Council ofLateran; this doctrine not directly taught at Maynooth, but witness bound to it by oath at induction ; had not then read the canon in question, 324. Whether decrees of councils not affecting faith or morals binding ; instance in case of marriage decrees of Council of 'Trent ; witness referred to denial of authority of that canon in Delahogue ; summary of reasons which led to witness’s disloyalty ; witness not aware that there is no excommuni- cation of Protestants in these countries, but is under the impression that her Majestj- lies under excommunication, and as such is excluded from Eoman Catholic jirayers ; referred to Eoman Catholic prayer-book, 325. Eeferred to prayer before mass ; witness never read or heard of that prayer ; never heard of the practice of reading these prayers before mass, 326. Witness's opinion that mass cannot be offered for heretics ; referred to passage in Bailly ; in Delahogue ; notwithstanding, witness adheres to his opinion ; whether witness ever received any teaching to the contrary of these passages, 327. Contrary impres- sion produced on witness’s mind ; did not communicate that impression to any of his instructors ; nor apply to the professors to reconcile the difference; does not recollect professor stating his difference of opinion from the class- book ; as to frequency of difference between professor and class-book, 328. Witness's impression that professor taught dift’erently from class-book ; professor being an ultramon- tane, witness comes to that conclusion; reference to prayer in pocket missal not remembered by witness ; reference to other prayers ; never heard of by witness before ; com- mencement of canon, 3’29. Witness’s lo 3 'alty on entering Maynooth, and astonishment at disloyalty witnessed there ; subsequently saw reason to consider oath of allegiance not binding ; that practice of taking oath should be continued did not appear extraordinary to w itness, wlio was led to it gradually ; never inquired from professor on the subject ; came to the above conclusion from passages about excom- munication, &c. ; his impression that it was done to throw du<=t in the eyes of ITotestants ; never asked about it, nor spoke to his fellow-students; Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to temporal jiow’er, and his refutation of arguments from councils, 330, 331. But Delaliogue was a Gallican, and ultramontane doctrines were inculcated in Maynooth ; witness’s attention directed to these portions of Delahogue; but impression on his mind that they were not adopted ; Dr. O’Hanlon the professor; sources of extracts read from “Church of Eome;” originals, to what extent read by witness; materials for his present examination, 33 1 . Ee- ANALYSTS OF EVIDENCE. XI ccption of Council of Lntcmn ; ailministorins of oath of allegiance by witness in (ialway a year after liis ordina- tion ; thouglit it binding then ; was not tlien disloyal, owing to his father’s inllncncc; afterwards rcTerteil to his former opinion, in Clare ; cause of the change, 332. The Rev. Thomas Ruti.er, d.d. : — Education of witness ; College of St. Thomas in Rome ; Irish College in Rome, 333. Irish students in the Pro- paganda ; Collegio Romano ; Collegio della Propaganda ; witness’s residence at IMalta ; his studies in Rome ; differ- ence of teaching at foreign colleges and that of Maynooth as to the sixth precept ; studies at Malta; study of Scrip- t\ire, .334. Weekly delivery of sermons ; ordinance of Council of Trent ; teaching as to sixth precept ; manner of teaching ; passed over in St. Thomas's College ; why, 335. St. Thomas Aquinas studied by witness; relation of citizens to the state not dwelt upon in foreign colleges ; duty of allegiance enforced to Protestant and Roman Catho- lic sovereigns alike ; doctrine of Roman Catholic Church as to status of the Queen in respect of excommunication ; nature of heresy which produces excommunication ; dis- tinction between a person excommunicated “ipso facto” and one to be excommunicated ; witness a member of the Church of England, 336. Prayers for heretics; sovereign not prayed for in the canon of the mass, unless a Roman Catholic ; why; sovereign prayed for in prayer before mass ; mass can be ottered for the temporal welfare of a heretic, if his conversion be also prayed for ; statement of dis- tinctions made in this matter ; practice of reading prayer before mass, including prayer tor the Queen, 337. Wit- ness’s opinion of ditt'erence between priests educated at Maynooth and those educated abroad ; in respect of loyalty ; in respect of learning ; as to effect of increased grant ; knowledge of classics ; Greek as well as L.atin ; Sacred Scripture ; sixth precept not taught at Maynooth so as to be injurious to morals of students, 338. Association of professors with students at Malta ; instructions as to mode of dealing with female penitents ; as to power of Pope over temporalities ; never heard of distinction between alle- giance due to orthodox and heretical sovereign ; releasing power ; contracts with heretics ; distinction in meaning of the word ; old civil laws on the subject ; contracts with heretics binding ; no power of absolving from contract, even for the good of the Church, 339. Decisions of St. Thomas in morals, how far binding ; not boutid, as a Thomist, by his writings on moral theology ; deprivation of princes comes under moral portion ; not bound by these opinions; correspondence between Trustees and Cardinal I'refect; i>assage as to SS. Augustine anil Thomas ; object of Cardinal in this passage; witness’s suggestions; morality of the people of Ireland, 340. The Rev. IIexry Neville, ^Professor of Theology ; — Distinction of heresy into material and formal; applica- tion of this distinction to Protestants of these countries, 341. Excommunication: its nature and effects; Protes- tants not under excommunication, 342. Interdict: its nature and effects ; these countries not under interdict; it has no temporal effects, 343. Temporal consequences re- sulting from excommunication when the party is denounced by name ; no denunciations occur with us ; Catholics can pray for heretics or parties under excommunication ; cx- cejition, 344. Mass can be offered for persons outside the pale of Church ; authorities cited, 345. Manner in which mass may be offered for persons not in the Church, 346. Mass can be offered directly for temporal good of person not within the pale of the Church ; usage in this country to pray for the Sovereign, 347 . Custom of praying for the Queen in Maynooth, 348. Effect of excommunication — privation of ecclesiastical burial ; how it affects this country ; civil punishments of heresy ; allegiance not in- terfered with by excommunication or interdict, .349. Priests do not swear their belief in those canons of Lateran th.at assert temporal power to the Church, 350. Divided opinions of theologians about the binding of pontifical laws ; Dens’ Theology not made a means of introducing new canon law, 351. Oath of allegiance made to heretic valid ; explanation of one of causes impeding obligation of an oath, 352. Reading Scripture not forbidden in M.ay- nooth; Ultramontanism and Gallicanism, 353. Temporal power of Pope not taught at Maynooth ; matrimony trea- tise — when and how taught at Maynooth, 355. The Rev. Laurence Gillic, Professor of Sacred Scripture and Hebrew ; — Teaching in Scripture class ; extent of Sacred Scripture read ; Irish College in Paris, 356. Desirable that pro- fessors shoidd write class-books ; proposed change in Di- vinity classes ; examinations; Biblical Greek, 367. Mode of teaching in Scripture class ; commentators, 358. Study of Hebrew by Duuboyne students ; provision of statutes as to employment of Dunboyne students in teaching, 359. Entrance examination ; intercourse between professors and students ; doctrine as to spiritual and temporal power, 360. Library for junior classes, 361 . ANALYSIS OF ANSWEKS OF THEOLOGICAL PHOFESSORS TO QUESTIONS IN PAPER K., &c. The Rev. J. O’Hanlon, d.d., Prefect of the Dunboyne Establishment, and Librarian : — Oaths and contracts between Roman Catholics and heretics ; coercion of heretics ; limitation of Dr. Slevin's doctrine ; authority of the Pope as to the right or duty of revolt against the civil power ; mode of treating subjects relating to the state of m.arriage, 361 . Duty of allegiance, how inculcated ; provisions of statutes as to class-books and subjects of study, how carried out ; intercourse between professors and students, 362. The Rev. P. Murray, d.d., Professor of the Pirst Class of Theology : — Question I. Oaths and co7itracts between JRovian Catholics and others — Answer. Reasoning of Beeanus on above question, .363. Question II. Coercion of heretics — Answer. 'renor of Bulls, 363. Sect. 1. Spiritual punishment of heresy ; excommunication ; grievousuess of sin of heresy according to Roman Catholics ; pertinacity required for sin of heresy ; conditions of this pertinacity, 364. Not certain that all Protestants are heretics ; witness's opinion con- firmed by testimony of eminent Roman Catholic divines ; references to testimonies ; meaning of habit of faith — illus- tration, 365. In what ivay Protestants excommunicated; Sect. 2. Temporal punishment of heresy ; general change of opinion regarding it ; opinions of modern Protestant writers; inexpediency, intrinsic and accidental, 366. Doc- trine of witness on temporal punishment of heresy, 367. Doctor Dens ; his arguments for temporal punishment of heresy refuted, 368. Objection anticipated ; opinion and defined doctrine ; confirmation of witness’s doctrine by approved Roman Catholic divines, 369. Here.sy not essen- tially involving opposition to government, &c. ; mode of controversy recommended by witness. Question III. Power of Pope to decide on riyht or duty of revolt — Answer; Sect. 1. Practice of the Popes — in ancient times, 370. In modern times. Sect. 2. Authority of Hoiy See; general question, one of ethics, which Church hu.s x>ower to define, but has only defined duty of obedience to civil power ; Bull of Gregory XVI. cx cathedra, 37 1 . Doctrine of St. Alphonsus Liguori ; important Papal documents ; clause in oath taken by bishops ; teaching of See of Rome on keeping faith with heretics, on oath of allegiance, &c. ; meaning of clause in bishops’ oath, 372. Extract from constitution of Benedict XIV. ; clergy who speak disre- spectfully of government to be punished severely ; aforesaid clause in bishops’ oath cancelled ; cl.ause added ; decision of Pope as to right of revolt in particular case ; no Pope would issue such decision; such decision, if issued, not binding; witness guards against disrespect towards Pope ; doctrine of lawfulness of resistance never to be preached to people, 373. Grounds on which witness does not base his doctrine ; grounds on which he does base it ; conditions of lawful revolt ; impossibility of Pope ascertaining, with sufficient certainty, existence of those conditions ; limit of Papal power admitted by all, 374. Consequences of Papal decision in favour of revolt ; objection to witness’s doctrine anticipated, and answered from Papal documents ; duty of obedience to invalid precepts ; duty of disobedience, 375. Question IV. Indelicate portions of Moral Theology Answer ; students never interrogated therein ; instruc- tions given by professor towards close of divinity course ; heads of lecture in reference to duties of married state ■ sins .against chastity ; doctrine of theologians thereon ; theological knowledge thereon : importance of ; whence derived, 376. Duties of confessor; special soheitude for youth; duties of parents; influence of confession on purity ; witness’s personal testimony thereto ; nature and necessity of contrition ; requirements for a valid confes- sion, 377. Theological treatises on the present matter; wiiy some of them so diffuse; character of: theologians w'ho w'rote them ; reading of those books : how justifiable; confirmation of witness’s views and reasoning, 378. Ques- tion V. Allujiance : Power of dispensing in; Avitness’s liesitation as to remainmg questions; College statutes, 379. Bye-Laws: how framed and observed; instances illustrative of mode in which Trustees make bye-laws and regulations ; ivitness declmes to suggest a remedy. Answer to Question V. Too much bye-law making, 380. Witness omits particular and emphatic observance of statute, in literal sense, as useless; but c.arries out its practical meaning and spirit ; Pope considered by the dis- loyal as an opponent ; disloyal and anti-social theories, &c., 381. M itness, of late years, lectures siiecially against them ; training of students in right feelings on the afore- said, how to be effected, 382. The Rev. George Crolly, Professor of Theology: Doctrine t.anght in M.aynooth regarding the obligation of an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a heretic by a Roman C.atholic ; the subject of which the Bulls, Ad /nanus tuas and Singulari nobis, treat, 383. Different ends for ANALYSIS OF ANS^YERS TO PAPER K.. &c. •which matrimony has been ordained — difference be- tween the effects of ecclesiastical and civil impediments; laws of the Koman Catholic Church regarding marriage when the contracting parties arc both Catholics, 384. Ordinances of the civil power regarding matrimony ; of marriage contracted between Christians when neither of the parties is a Koman Catholic ; when one of the parties is a Catholic and the other a heretic, 385. The declara- tion of Benedict XIV. regarding the law of ihe Council of Trent is not a dispensation but an interpretation of its genuine meaning; declaration of Pius VI. respecting mixed marriages in Ireland ; demand of the Emperor Napoleon ; decree of the Emiicror Joseph II. ; meaning of the word “heretic,” 366. The sin of positive infidelity or of heresy is not committed except by a wilful rejection of the veracity of God ; difference between infidelity and heresy ; the Church of Christ hath a body and soul; who belong to the soul of the Church ? who belong to the body of the Church? 387. The Church of Christ includes occult heretics and baptized infidels ; members of heretical societies may not be guilty of the sin of heresy, and, there- fore, may not be real heretics ; Catholic doctrine respect- ing material and formal heresy ; Cardinal I)e Lugo ; in what sense Christian societies, which are separated from the Roman Catholic Church, are called heretical, 388. A member of a heretical society may be only a material heretic, and may be saved if he die either without having forfeited the grace of baptism by grievous sin or with true sorrow for the sins he has committed; persons who have been educated in societies separated from the Roman Ca- tholic Church, cannot enter that Church so long as they believe her faith to be false ; members of heretical socie- ties, who are invincibly ignorant of the truth of the Roman Catholic Church, may inculpably reject her authority, and may, at the same time, make true acts of faith re- specting other articles which are sufficiently proposed to them, 389. A person may reject both the truth and autho- rity of the Roman Catholic Church through ignorance, and may still be a Catholic, 390. Punishments of heresy of two kinds, spiritual and temporal ; spiritual punish- ments of heresy; not only ineulp.able ignorance of the Church herself, as well as of tlie doctrine which she pro- poses, but even that which is grievousl}' sinful or expressly desired, excuses from the sin of heresy and from its penal- ties, 391. The Church cannot inflict temporal punish- ments on heretics; of the right of the State to inflict temporal punishments on heretics; the exient of the civil authority over those who are subject to it, 392. It chiefly and primarily regards temporal matters ; may punish those who publish opinions subversive of all religion and of social order; declaration of the “Rights of Man” by the Constituent Assembly of France; the State should have a religion as well as a public morality, compatible with a wise toleration ; opinion of Fenelon ; opinion of Burke, 393. Revolutionists do not trouble themselves about the Pope’s opinion as to the right or duty of rebellion; the Catholic Church never has decided, and never will decide, the question whether rebellion may sometimes be justifi- able, or is always wrong; doctrine of the Maynooth Col- lege class-book, 394. The Pope, as head of the Church, has not a divine right to decide the temporal disputes which may arise between sovereigns and subjects; office of the Pope and of the Church in relation to natural, divine, and civil laws ; it is not for the violation of the natural, divine, or ecclesiastical laws that a prince may be deposed, but for the violation of the laws of society and of the civil contract between himself and his subjects ; the relation between sovereign and subjects, 395. Doc- trine taught in Maynooth respecting the duties of the married state; delicate subjects form a very small portion of the Maynooth course ; and every precaution is used to prevent them from producing the slightest evil influence on the mind of the student ; mode of interrogating in the confessional, 396. With regard to sins against the sixth precept in particular; general doctrine of modern approved Catholic writers on this subject, 397. Witness’s teaching on this subject ; effects of the Maynooth teacliing on the morality of the priests, and of the people who frequent the confessional; how the duty of allegi.ance is inculcated, 398. The manner of acting when civil and ecclesiastical laws come into collision; civil allegiance cannot be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatever ; neither the Pope nor the Church can relax or dispense in the oath of allegiance, 399. Mode of arranging the theological lectures for each academical year ; connexion between science and religion ; compilation of treatises by the pro- fessors, 400. Defects in the management of the junior departments ; students are not allowed an opportunity of attending the lectures of the Professor of Elocution ; ad- mission of laymen as teachers in the classical and other literary departments; the advantage of disposing of chairs by public concursus, 401. Election of professors; too much theology in the junior departments ; employment of lay tutors, 402. No friendly intercourse between supe- riors and students ; arbitrary power of excluding from orders ; superiors and students should dine together and meet in friendly intercourse during the hours of recrea- tion ; students excluded from public exhibitions ; course of public lectures, 403. The Rev. Henry Neville, Professor of Theology: — Validity of oath and contract made to heretics, and obli- gation of them, same as if made in favour of Catholic party ; physical coercion of heretics not inculcated at Maynooth at present, 404. The Pope cannot decide in I)articular the right and duty of revolt, though it belongs to his office to declare the duties of allegiance in general ; mode of treating subjects relating to married state; duty of loyalty — how inculcated ; provisions of statutes with regard to class-books and subjects of study — how carried out, 405. Intercourse of professors and students confined to class halls chiefly, 406. Rev. Henry Ne'ville’s Answers to Questions on Matrimony, 406. The Rev. P. Murray's brief statement of the theological course of Maynooth College, 408. Outlines of a plan for the employment of the Dunboyne scholars as lecturers in the Divinity Class, 412. MAYN'OOTII ('OMMISSION. MiiNMi'i'i'is u\' i: V 1 1) i: Nc i:. DiMiu.N', \Vi:))\i;.si)A V, 2S'i'ii Sr.i’riCMitiJt, 18;").'’, li(!V. Malllino Flauaiion, d d., im'., S(‘(;i'ct,:iry to (lio l5o;u'il of 'IV ii.sIoch, (•xamiiKMl. I. You liav(! Iiainlod to tlu! roiiimiHHioiK.TH a lint of I lio olIic.io'H ooiuicf'tod with Mayiiootli Collot'o, with tlio (lal.OH of thoir :i))|)oiiitinciit, in roiitiiuiatioii ol a, rormoi’ n tiii n laid hcfdro tlu) ( 'omiiiiKHioiKTH of liKjiiiiy in l!S2d, diHtin^'niMhin;.^ hiicIi aa worn al'lorwanlH conKooi-a,tod l)iHho]).s; airto a li.st of I ho 'I'nisfooH a|)|)ointod ji-oni thoii' Hoyoral |)i’ovincoH hinco that period, noting kiicIi aa liad hoen atndontH, or prol'eHHoiH, oi' both, in tho t'ollogo, togeiher with a li.Ht ol' tho proHont HiijioriorH, prol'o.SHorM, and otiieera, and tlieii’ aalarioH, ;ind ol' tins jiroHont 'rrn.stooH, lay and ooidosiaHtiea I. \ on have al.-io I'nniiMhod (ho < 'onnniMnionorM with oxtraotH I'roni thia joninal ol' tho 'I'niateoa, ol' ovory atatnto, warrant, or order iaane.d hy them in eonao(|iionco of, or eonnoctod with tho incioaaod grant made hy tins railianient in lH4r>? — Vi'a. ‘2. Von have, in your written aiiaw(:ra to tho written (|noati()iia ol' I ho t ,'onnniaaionei’a, ennineratod tho variona ineotinga of tho 'I'rnsteea, with the datoa and avi'rago duration ol' eaoh ainco !K'2h', and hoaidcia that, tho namoa ol’ tho 'I rnatooa in attenda,nee, at eaoli mooting aiiico IHH. Will yon atato hy what anangomont tho Trnateoa ai'o aolec:tody The lirat 1'rnateea were named in tho original Act ol' I’arliamont paaaed for oatahliahing and ondow- iiig a Konian ('atholio eollogo, ainongat whom wore inelndod the Lord ('hamadlor of Ireland, tho rhanocdlor of tho l'ixeho(|nor, a,nd tho t hroo ( .'hioC .) ndgoa. I5y a anhao(|iient Act, hy whidi tho t'ollego of Maynooth waa aotnally eatahliahod, (ho laird < diancidlor, Chancellor of tho l'ixelio(|iier, and tho throe Cliiol’ Jndgea, coaaod to ho 'rniHtoea, hoing conatitntod Viaitora,and only the occloaiaatical and tho lionian < 'atholic hay 'I'rnatoea origiindly named wen; retained, viz., )i l,e. Besides, Badly has advanced a doctrine on the subject of marriage w'hich is also distasteful in Borne. Bailly inaintains the separability of the contract of marriage from the sacrament, contending that marriage among Christians, may exist as a valid contract, without being a sacrament. The present Bontiff, in his allocution to the cardinals, Se2)tember, 1852, in reference, I think, to some disputes which were at that time disturbing some of the South American churches, has formally laid down that no marriage among Christians can be valid unless it be a sacra- ment. Bailly and the French theologians generally maintain a different opinion; and this may be one of the reasons, if not the principal one, why Bailly was disapproved of by the Pope, and placed in the Index. 33. VvMuld it he considered, as a matter of course, that any l)Ook put in the Index was not to be used in any Boman Catholic College? — The Index is not received, and thei'efore imposes no obligation in this country. Dr. Murray, the late Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Doyle, and, as well as I can recollect. Dr. Curtis, the Archbisliop of Armagh, and Dr. Kelly, Archbishop of Tuam, declared, u[)on their oatlis, in the House of Lords, in the year 1825, that neither the “Bulla Coen®,” nor the Index was received in Ireland, and I am sure they have not been received since that period. The Index, therefore, induces no obligation upon us ; but as clergymen belonging to an ecclesiastical institution, we feel ourselves constrained to defer to the expressed washes of the Pope. 34. It is a matter of discretion rather than of absolute obligation? — A matter of propriety and of deference to the judgment of the Pope. 35. In an ecclesiastical college would it not be unbecoming to continue a book whicli the Pope had disapproved of? — Most undoubtedly. 36. In th.is case the Trustees directed the book to-be wathdraw-n after it had been placed on the Index? — Yes : 1 suppose in consequence of its having been placed in the Index. 37. The book w’as discontinued in obedience to the order of the Trustees ? — Yes. 38. Do you imagine that the placing of a book in the Index in former times would have displaced the book, say in theology, in all foreign universities ? — I should think not. The placing of such a book as Bailly in the Index, in the time of Louis NIV., I am sure, would not have displaced it in the French universities. 39. A on have stated what you believe to bo the reasons wdiy Bailly was put upon the Index : were those parts of Bailly wdiich the Pope objected to ever read in the College ? — His treatise on the Church wms never read in the College. All his views upon the Gallican doctrines are contained in that treatise. His treatise on marriage, containing the opinion already referred to, was read in the College. 40. Does this author wdiose name you mentioned, Scavini, supply you with a treatise on marriage ? — He does. 41. Is the treatise upon marriage in Scavini that wdiich is now taught in the College? — I have stated already that though Scavini has been prescribed by the Trustees, the students have not been as yet supplied wdth that wmrk. 42. But that book has been used subsequently? — It has never been used in the College. 43. A^ou have it, of course, in the library? — No; but I have ordered a copy of it for the library. I have a copy myself. 44. A"ou have not looked into it ? — I have. 45. With regard to marriage, does he lay down any distinct principle ? — lie differs from Bailly as to the separability of the contract from the sacrament. 46. That part of Bailly w’as not read which did treat of the GaUican Liberties ? — No ; but we read the entire of his marriage treatise, 47. The College of Alaynooth never, I suppose, taught from any book wdiich was in the Index? — Never, to my knowledge, while the book remained in the Index, and, with the exception of Bailly, none of the class-books used at any period in Alaynooth w'as ever put on the Index. 48. Is not “ Natalis Alexander” in the Index ?— Natalis Alexander was placed in the Index, “ donee corrigatur,” just as Bailly has been put in the Index. The work was sub- sequently corrected by Boiicagha, Alansi, and other writers, and is now used not only in France, but in every other country. 49. There has been a considerable increase in the grant to the Dunboyne students ; do you think that they have expended as large a portion of that grant as was desirable 4//i October, 1853. 2 . Ecv. Jolm O’llanlou. Disuse of l?ailly in the College. Condenination of Bailly at Borne ami its causes. Elfect of such con- denmation on the use, in Homan Catho- lic Colleges, of the condemned work. Treatises of Bailly previously read in Maynooth. 6 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOJvA 4?/i Octoh( }\ 165'). 2 . Kev.Jolm O’JIanlon. ICxpudicn ' v of carry- ing into cliect the l)rovisioiis of the Statutes as to the employment of the Dunhoyne students in teaching. Deliciencies in prepa- ratory education. Provisions of the Statutes as to the employment of the Dunboyne students in teaching. in tlie pnrcliase of books ? — Some of them, 1 should think, have not expended as much as was desirable in tlie purchase of books ; I must say, however, that several of the Dunboyne students are jtrovided with handsome private libraries, and tliat the great majority of them, when finally leaving the College, usually expend from twenty to forty pounds in the purchase of books. 50. Do you think it desirable that any of them should be employed as tutors or assistant instructors to the junior classes as a means of keeping up their information? — In point of fact, by the Statutes of the College, the Dunboyne students are required to take part in the instruction of the several classes ; but, for what reason I do not know, those statutes have never been carried into full effect. I think it most desirable that they should be employed as assistant instructors. Their taking a share in the instruction of the junior classes would be the most effectual means of preserving and increasing their knowledge of the matters connected with the several departments through which they liave passed. 51. You think their time is not so fully occupied as it might be ? — I think it is not. 52. Would it not be particularly desirable for the Humanity Cksses? — It Avould, and be a great means of improvement to the Dunboyne students themselves. 53. And also to the junior students? — Undoubtedly. 54. If the Dunboyne Students assisted, it would tend to increase the tutorial clement in the teacliing of languages, would it not? — It would. 55. In your experience as professor in Maynootb, have you remarked that there was great deficiency in the students coming to l\!aynooth in their preparatory education ? — I think it was observable in the students coming from some parts of Ireland. At the same time I must observe, however singular it may appear, that the students wdio came from those districts where a person might suppose there Avas the worst possible provision for their preparatory education, generally evinced a su]jeriority, as far as Latin vras concerned, over those who were educated in seminaries or colleges. 56. Not in Greek ? — No, they were generally not so Avell prepared to ansAver in Greek. 57. Or French? — They are not examined in French for entrance. I should say they AA'ere deficient in the knoAvledge of French, and Ihiglish. Their pronunciation, in some instances, was strongly marked by a peculiarity of tone and accent similar to those Avhich, I presume, are to be foimd in the remote districts of every kingdom. 58. You think it Avould be desirable that the students should be better tested as to their knoAAdedge of English, by trying tbem in English composition ? — 1 tliink it A\muld be desirable ; and if such a course Avere adopted, it would have the effect of fixing the atten- tion of the heads of the preparatory schools on the necessity of properly instructing their students in the English language. 59. Will you have the goodness to look at tlie section, on page 31, of the Appendix to the Eighth Report of the Commissioners of Irish Education Inquiry, Avhere it is stated — “ It will therefore be their business, at stated times, to question the pupils of the A'arious classes concerning the subjects Avhich have been discussed under the direction of their master; and Avhen the professors are prevented, by business or ill health, to take on them the entire duty of teaching. And since the Theology Class has increased exceedingly by the number of pupils, the President, haAung distributed it into several parts, Avill aijpoint over each part one of the senior students, Avhom he himself, in conjunction Avith the Council above named, shall judge most qualified for that office. But if the question be concerning any other class, that, for instance, of philosophy or humanity, let the professor Avhose province it is, be also consulted?” — I must observe, in reference to that Statute, that it was made at a time Avhen the Theology Class Avas composed of the first, second, and third years’ divines, and usually comprised from 160 to 180 students. At that time it Avas deemed expedient to dmde the instruction of the class between the professors and the Dunboyne students, as it must have been obvious that the professors could have but fcAV opportunities in the year of interrogating each individual in so extensive a class. Noav matters are changed altogether, because-the class is distributed into four sections, each having its OAvn professor, and as each section does not consist of more than sixty or sixty-five students on an average, there is not the same necessity for making that distribution among the Dun- boyne students that there Avas at the time the statute Avas made. 60. At that time, admitting entirely Avhat you have said, the numbers in the College were much fcAver ? — The number of the body of the students in the College was consider- ably less than it is at present ; but from the time, at least, Avhen 1 entered the College, in 1821, the Divinity Class neA*er comprised less than from 130 to 180 students. Y hen I was a first year's divine, I recollect my OAvn class consisted of 75, and the other two DiA’inity Classes could not liaA'e consisted of less than 100 or 120. 61. IVill you turn to the ninth section — “ But since establishing this class of students, our principal object is, that persons may not be Avanting Avho succeeding to the profpsors whose places may become A'acant, either by death or otherAA'ise, may execute without interruption the duty of teaching in the College, AA’hich, hoAvever learned they may be, they will not be able to discharge, unless they shall have acquired by experience a facility of communicating instruction to othei’S ; we desire, therefore, that the senior students also may have their share in the province of teaching.” So that it would seem from the Statutes that the object was not only to relieve incidentally the professors, but also to train persons in the art of teaching ? — Such, clearly, is the intent of that portion of the Statute ; and in virtue of that laAv, lecturers to a portion of the Tlieology Class Avere appointed in the year 1827. AYhen I was a student on the Dunboyne Establishment, I Avas employed as lecturer to the first year's divines. :\riNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7 02. They never now at all act as monitors or assistant professors ? — Never, unless when a professor is either absent or confined to his room by sickness. (id. Ill regard to the ])rizes, ilo you consider that any improvement might he made as to the hooks vrliich are distrihuted ? — i\Iy conviction is that the ])reminins should he more valuable than they arc at jiresent. I think that the College, so far from advancing, has receded in that particular. In my time, and for several vears suhsc([uently, the set of Breviaries which was usually given as a jiremium to tlic student who obtained the first or second ])lacc in theology cost from three to four guineas. At jircscnt, it is true, the same description of hook is given as a premium, hut its jiricc does not (ixceed £l or £l (is. It is evident, therefore, that there has been a great falling off in regard to the premiums. (i4. Is not that Breviary taken out of a lot which was jirinted by Coyne some years ago? — Yes; it is taken from a lot printed about eight or nine years ago. 65. Is not that Breviary defective in many respects ? — Some of its parts are misplaced ; for instance, there is a portion of it to be found in page 140, which ought to have been inserted after page 2, and its type is of unequal size, some of it being inconveniently small. It wants, however, none of the parts of a Breviary. 66. Is that Breviary purchased by any body who wishes to buy a good Breviary ? — I should say no ; W'e purchased a thousand copies of it, of which the principal part is still on hands, and I can safely say, that a single set lias not been purcliased for the last four or five years either from myself or the Sub-Li brai’ians. 67. W 01 . Id it not be desirable, as much as possible, to provide that those who issue from you to parish cures, should be furnished with an adequate supply of books? — By the laws of the house every student is required to furnish himself with all the treatises read during the College course, lie is under no obligation of supplying himself with any other description of books. 68. Would it not be very desirable, especially as their pecuniary position is improved, that they should be compelled to expend a certain amount in the formation of a library? — It would certainly be most desirable that they should be provided with a collection of useful works. It would, however, be easy to defeat any law that might be made on the subject, because on finally leaving the College they could dispose of all their books not absolutely necessary. 69. Are you able to state, off-hand, how many of the professors have been Dunboyne students ? — Of the twenty professors and other officers, eighteen have been Dunboyne students: the President, Vice-President, the three Junior Deans, three of the Professors of Theology, the Professor of Scripture, Ecclesiastical History, Phy.sics, Logic, Bbetoric, Humanity, English, and Irish, tlie Bursar and myself. If I be not greatly mistaken, ]\Ir. Neville was appointed to the Dunboyne, but there being at the time a great mortality among the clergy of his diocese, his bishop found it necessary to call him on the mission before he took possession of his place on that establishment. Dr. Gaffney, the senior dean, received no part of his education in Maynooth. 70. Perhaps you can also state what number of bishops of the Boman Catholic Church in Ireland have been on the Dunboyne Establishment? — The only bishops I can pronounce to have been on the Dunboyne Establishment, are — Dr. Dixon, Archbishop of Armagh ; Dr. IMacnallv, Bishop of Clogher; Dr. Derry, Bishop of Clonfert; Dr. Delany, Bishop of Clork; Dr. Murphy, Bishop of Cloyne; Dr. Durcan, Bishop of Achonry. 71. Are you aware whether Drs. Haly and Walsh were at Maynooth? — Dr. Haly was educated in Maynooth ; Dr. Walsh was not. 72. Including Dr. Haly as a Maynooth student, there are twenty-four, are there not? — No ; of the bishops enumerated in the Catholic Directory, there are only twenty-three who have been educated in iMaynoolh, eight in Ulster, two in Leinster, six in IMunster, and seven in Connaught. Dr. Cullen and Dr. Kilduff were educated in Koine, Dr. AYalsh in Kilkenny, Dr. O’Keane in Paris. 73. Dr. Slattery was at Alaynooth, was he not? — He was President of Alaynooth, but he made his classical studies in Trinity' College, and his theological studies in Carlow. I have omitted to mention Dr. Blake, Bishop of Dromore, Avho received his education in Piome. 74. Was he a student in the Irish College? — I do not know whether the Irish College was in existence in his time or not. 75. The Dunboyne studentship is now given as a reward for proficiency, is it not? — To those students who are most distinguished for talents and for conduct during the ordinary course. 76. In other words it is practically a scholarship. — Yes, for three y^ears. 77. AYould it be advantageous to have it called the Dunboyne Scholarship? — No objec- tion could, I think, be made to that designation. 78. Would it be of any advantage? — The very name might, perhaps, be an incitement to the students to aspire to the Dunboyne. 79. A “Dunboyne Scholar?” — Yes. Their present designation is that of senior student. 80. Vou are also Prefect of the Library, are you not? — Yes. 81. Is it convenient that the chief jirofessor should be Prefect of the Library', rather than the Dean or some one in that class? — It might, perhaps, be well to separate the two offices; but I am sure the Prefect of the Dunboyne Establishment, with the aid of the two Sub-Librarians, who are always Dunboyne students, manage the affairs of the library as well as they could be managed by the Dean or by' any one of the class to which he belongs. Ath Orloher, 1S5:1. 2 . I{ev.,J()l)ii O’Maiiloii. I’reiniums. Yfliether students should be compelled to expend portion of their funds in the formation of a library. Number of professors .and officers who were Dunboyne students. Number of bishops who were Dunboyne students. Adoption of term “Dunboyne Scholar- shij).” 8 MAYXOOTII COM.AIISSIOX. 4lus from the savings of iMr. Montague, formerh' Bursar, and subsequenth' President of the College, amounting to £2,000 ; but it became necessary to hand that sum oyer to the Board of Woi’ks, for the completion of the new building, the £30,000 granted by Parliament having been found inadequate for that ])urpose. 95. And the library-room is at present perfectl}' useless, is it not ? — It is. 9G. Have you applied to the Board of A^'orks to correct that deficienc}’ ? — The Board of Works have been aware of the condition of the librar}’, but they have no funds for fitting it out. 97. Xo’iV the room is useless, is it not ? — Perfectly useless ; there is, as I have stated, no furniture of an\’ description in it, neither shelves nor tables, nothing but the bare walls. 98. Have you received man\’ presents to the library ?■ — In the infanc}’ of the College w’e received presents to a greater extent than latterly. 'The celebrated Edmund Burke, among others, made us a handsome present of classical books. 'They belonged to his son, and after his death w’erc presented to the College. AVithin the last six or seven years w’C obtained a collection of about twelve hundred volumes, the library of Dr. Crott}', President of the College, during a considerable number of years, and afterw’ards Bishop of Cloync. At his death, he bequeathed his books to the diocese of Cloyne, for the use of i^IIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 9 a seminary, -wliicli lie tlicn contemplated, on condition, liowcver, tliat the seminary sliould be erected by liis successor within the space of tlirce years; in tlie event of its not being established within that jmriod, lie ordained that his boohs should become the ])ro)>erty of Maynooth College, llis successor did not erect the seminary within the specified time, and we became entitled to the books. 99. The ])rcsent room where books are, is full, is it not?— It is; anel wo have two storo-i'ooms full also. 100. So that you cannot get at your books at ])resent ? — Not at those which are in the store-rooms without special apjilication to the Librarian. Tliough we had no place for them in the library, we have purcliased several works, lest an opportunity of procuring them might not afterwards jiresent itself. 101. Is it jirobable that if a new library were fitted np, with ample room, you would receive many presents ? — 1 think it is not probalile. Jly imjiression is, that ])oo])le generally imagine tliat our income of £20,000 per annum is fully adequate to supply us with every requisite for the College. 102. Wouhl there be any objection to a library fee, to be a])])lied to the maintenance of the li!)rary, and to be levied on the students, for instance? — 1 do not see any objec- tion to a small fee to be levied on the ])rofessors and other ofilcers of the College, as w’ell as on those students who receive £20 ]>or annum. It wouhl, at all events, im not un- reasonable to levy such a fine on the students of the Hebrew Class, who are permitted to take ont of the library, for their private use, almost all the Hebrew Lexicons and Grammars which we possess. lO.'L Do you find that this is not attended with any serious injury to the books? — It is attended with serious injury to the books ; iind, in consequence, it becomes necessaiy to repair them frequently. 104. What class of students are admitted to the library? — The Dunboyne students, and the four theology classes. Those are the only classes admitted to the library during the academical year. lOo. The whole, in fact, of the senior department? — Yes, with the exception of the Physic Class. During the vacation the senior students generally are admitted from ten in the morning till three in the afternoon. 10(3. Then there is no library at all in Maynooth for the junior classes? — Yes, there is a small library for the classes of Innnanity, rhetoric, and logic ; it is. however, very im- perfectly furnished, and during a considerable time since 1845, the junior department was deprived of the benefit of that library, it having been found necessary to transfer the books to the general library, in order to afford accommodation to some of the students. 107. Do you think it desirable that the students of the junior classes should have a library formed for themselves, consisting of good English works? — i\lost undoubtedly ; composed of books suited to their several dcpartinents. 108. Are there any means taken in the College for instructing the students in preach- ing, for instance ? — The Trustees, several years ago, appointed a professor of recitation and oratory. It is the duty of this gentleman, (Mr. Stack) to attend the students for eight weeks during the year, and to give them instructions in reading, recitation, and declamation. 109. The question had reference to the composing of sermons? — Dy a regulation of the Trustees, four of the senior students arc obliged to preacli every Sunday and holiday in the year. 110. Is that all the instruction they receive? — No; the gentleman who presides in the hall where the sermon is ])reached, after having called upon two or more of the students to make such observations as the merits or demerits of the discourse may suggest, uniformly expresses his own opinions on the matter, manner, and style of the sermon. 111. Are the discourses previously written ? — Yes. 1 12. Do they liand the manuscript to any one ? — No. 113. In fact, there is no instruction given excepting that. Arc they taught to cate- chise others? — No, except so far as they learn it in their theological and Scri])ture course. 114. There is no instruction in preaching beyond what you have described? — No. 115. Do you think it desirable that the students should receive further instruction in preaching and catechising than they receive at present ? — 1 think it would be a most desirable improvement in the system of the College, if some person were specially charged with the duty of instructing the students in preaching and catechising, as both will become most important duties on the mission hereafter. 116. The sermons are in English, are they not? — Almost alw'ays in English; occasion- ally, but rarely, in Irish. From this time forth, my impression is that an Irish sermon will be a matter of still more rare occurrence — as the Irish language is unfortunately going out of the country rapidly. 117. You made a distinction in your answer between your lectures in theology and your lectures in canon law? — Yes. 118. Have you distinct lectures upon the two subjects? — Yes. I lecture on canon law and ecclesiastical history, respectively, on every alternate Monday ; I lecture on theology three times each week, on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. 119. Is the canon law only taught to the Dunboyne students? — Only to the Dunboyne students. 120. It is not a matter of instruction to those who do not reach that position ? — It is not. None of the other professors lecture on canon law. Their course is prescribed by the Trustees, and the canon law forms no portion of it. There are, it is true, certain matters c Hh Octoher, IB-O-a. I!cv. .John O'Hanlon. ExpcJicncy of library foes for main- tenance of tlie library. Classes ailinitted to the librarj'. Library for the junior classes. Sacreil oratory. Instruction in cate- chising. Canon law. 10 MAYXOOTIT COMMISSION. -Ith Octohtr, 1853. 2 . Kev. John O'llanlon. Jlcthocl of instruc- tion in canon law. Expediency of having text-books emanating from tlie College itself. Van Espen. GiraUlus. Kriiner. ilaschatt. Subjects treated of by the several authors on canon law referred to by witness. ■which may he said to he common to canon law and theology — such, for instance, are tliosc connected with the sacraments, but the Theology Professors treat those matters as moral questions, and not in their relation to the canon law. 121. Are the Commissioners justified in supposing from your answer that there is still a text-book ? — We don’t tie ourselves down to any particular text-book. 1 proceed in canon law as 1 do in ecclesiastical histoiy. I announce the subject of the lecture and refer the students to the standard works on the subject in the library. 122. Do you make remarks upon the books which they will have to consult? — I have frequently particularized the books which I considered the best on this or that subject, and the students of the present class know from the tradition of their predecessors the works which 1 specially recommend. 123. Do you give them clues by advice for their guidance through the different books? — Yes, from time to time ; and as I interrogate them uniformly on the subject matter of the lecture, it is always in my power to correct any unsound or extravagant opinion which they may have borrowed from the books which they consulted. 1 have omitted to state that Cabassutius is tlie class-book used by order of the Board of Trustees. 124. Do you consider that the class-book indicates the doctrine inculcated? — Yes. We do not depart from the doctrine of Cabassutius generally. Thci’e are some matters, how- ever, with regard to which we do not exactly ado])t his views. In point of fact, it has never been understood that the I’rofessor of the Dunboyne is bound so much as the other professors to adopt the opinions of any particular writer, because the Dunboyne students are considered to bo more capable of examining matters, and forming opinions for them- selves than the other students ; hence they are allowed a greater latitude, and the profes- sor encourages a spirit of inquiry, provided that it is not carried beyond a reasonable extent. 12.5. Would it not be desirable that for each of the classes there should be a text-book emanating from the College itself? — It would be a great improvement ; if such a book were adapted to the circumstances and condition of this country, and aj)proved by com- petent authority. 1 2G. So that there should be a definite corpus of doctrine upon all leading points, which should be adopted and professed by the College? — Yes. 127. I perceive that Van Espen does not appear in this list of w'orks? — Our students do not generally consult that work. Van Espen, on account of his Jansenistic opinions and tendencies has been losing ground in Catholic colleges for the last sixty or seventy years. Besides, he is, in a great degree, exclusively Belgian. One of my predecessoi’s entertained a high opinion of the general merits of Van Espen as a writer on canon law, and I should think there is no one who will not give him credit for the great perspicuity and erudition which he has displayed in his works. It is only fair, however, to observe that he has borrowed largely from Thomassin, a distinguished French canonist, and that he has omitted to acknowledge his obligations to that writer. If I have not referred to him in that list, it happened through inadvertence, as I consult him myself as frequently as I do any of the other works which 1 have mentioned. 1 28. What is the nature of the treatise of Giraldus ? — The object of Giraldus, in his work entitled “ Expositio Juris Pontificii,” was to ascertain and fix the canon law as it stood in his time, 1768, by pointing out all the ancient laws which had been abrogated or modified by the Council of Trent, by the decretals of the more recent pontiffs, by the decisions of the sacred congregations, and by usage. The work of Giraldus is in three volumes, folio. 129. What work of Krimer is there? — The work of Kriraer, who was a German canonist, is a commentary on the Decretals of Gregory IX.. and compi'ises four volumes, Iblio. 130. There is a work of Maschatt? — The work of jMascliatt referred to is his “ Iiistitu- tiones Juris Civilis et Canonici.” This work, wliich has been edited and enlarged by Giraldus and Eusebius Amort, specifies also the ancient canons abrogated by the Council of Trent, and by the decrees of the sacred congregations. 131. Will you have the goodness, in regard to the works you have enumerated in a former answer as the books studied, and which provide matter for your lectures in canon law, to state the subjects on which each of those authors treat ? — To state the subjects upon which Beiffenstuel, Schmalzgrueber, Krimer, and the other authors referred to treat, it will be sufficient to mention the subjects upon -which any one of them treats ; for, their several works being commentaries on the decretals of Gregory IX., they treat of the same matters, and in the same order. Let us, then, take Schmalzgrueber. Tliis writer, after having in a preliminary dissertation defined the canon law, and indicated its constituent parts, pro- ceeds, in the first volume of his work, to ti’eat of the doctrine of the blessed Trinity, of the profession of the Catholic ffith, of positive laws. Papal rescripts, custom or usage, of the election of prelates, tlie translation of bishops, the authority and use of the Pallium, the resignation of benefices, the remedies to be applied to negligence on the part of pastors, the time for ordination and the qualifications of candidates for orders, the qualifications of beneficed clergymen, the irregularities which impede the reception or exercise of orders, the office of archdeacon, arclipriest, vicar- general, the office and po-v\'er of a delegated judge, the office and power of a judge vested with ordinary jurisdiction, of compacts, transactions, ])ostulations, jirocurators, and arbitrators. In the second volume he treats of the nature, form, object, and effect of judicial proceedings; of the nature, variety, and effect of canonical proofs, the qualifications of witnesses, the sufficiency or insufficiency of public and private instruments, of presumptions, oaths, exceptions, prescriptions, and appeals. In the third volume, Schmalzgrueber treats of the obligation of clergymen to lead holy and edifying lives, of resident and non-resident clergymen, of prebends and dignities, of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 11 the collation of benefices, the alienation of clmrcli property, of Christian burial, parishe.s, tithes, and offerings, of regulars, of vows, of the right of jiatronago, the consecration of churches, the ccloliration of mass and the other divine oflices, of baptism, the cucharist, and other sacraments, of the relies, veneration, and canonization of the saints, of fasts, the erection of churches, the immunities of churches and cemeteries, of the obligations of ecclesiastics. In the fourtli volume he treats of marriage, its indissolubility and impedi- ments, and of divorce. In the fifth and last volume ho treats of accusations and denuncia- tions, of simony, of the Jews and Saracens, of heretics, schismatics, and apo.states, of deserted children, of voluntaiy and casual homicide, adultery, theft, usury, and other such crime.s, of privileges, canonical purgation, of injustice, of penalties, penances, and indul- gences, of e.xcommunication suspension, interdict, and the regulte juris. 132. Arc the young men, before going out to their cures, trained specifically with respect to their pastoral duties '? — No ; unless so fiir as those duties arc inculcated in the course of theology. Me have a treatise, one of our moral treatises, on the obligations of the various states and conditions of man, as avell as a special treatise on the duties of pastors and of all ranks of ecclesiastics. Last summer, the Trustees made a rule, which 1 regard as a very important one, that the four deans shall, in luture, lecture the students occasion- ally upon the administration of the sacraments, and upon the ceremonies of the Church, practically. 133. You arc probably aware that in the English universities there have been lately established some professorships in pastoral theology? — Yes, 1 am aware that there is a professor of pastoral theology in Oxford. 1 34. Mould that division of theology he advisable at IMaynooth ? — I think that the establishment of a professorship of that description is not necessary in Maynooth. There is irot one of the duties of a pastor which is not explained in the treatise of Bailly, or in that of Scavini, rrow to be used. It might, perhaps, be advisable to dii’ect the professors of theology to devote more attention to that treatise, and to dwell longer upon it than they have been acemstomed to do. 135. Mill you have the goodness to explain what is the nature of the works of Delugo and Arriaga ? — Both are what wo call scholastic theologians, as contradistinguished from dogmatical or moral theologians. By dogmatical theologians, we mean those who treat of matters belonging to faith ; by moral theologians, those who treat of questions regarding morality : and by scholastic theologians, we mean such as examine and discuss the free opinions of the schools. Me frequentl}' read this class of writers, because their discussions are found to throw an immensity of light on the dogmatical questions, and tend to sharpen and strengthen the understanding. In this respect we find those Avriters most useful. Delugo and Arriaga hold an eminent |)lace among the scholastic theologians. 136. Of Avhat nation are they? — Tliey Avere both Spaniards. Arriaga AA'as Professor of Theology and Chancellor of the University of Prague ; Delugo published his Avork after having professed theology for twenty years in Pome. 137. Of Avhat date Avas it? — I can not exactM say the year; but it was about the middle of the seventeenth century. 138. Mill you point out any other of those Avriters Avho are also writers on scholastic theology? — Joannes a S. Thoma is exclusively a scholastic Avriter. Suarez, Vasquez, Sylvius, and Estius may be said to l>e mixed Avritors, lor they treat of dogmatical as Avell as of scholastic questions. Bellarmine is the only one of those referred to Avho can be simply considered a dogmatical Avriter. It is onlj- incidentally that a scholastic question presents itself in Bellarmine. 139. M’hat is the nature of the Avork of Natalis Alexander? — It is a history of the JcAvisli and Christian Cluirches. It contains also several theological, as well as historical disserta- tions on various important subjects. ' 140. Does it conqnise the Avhole history? — It does; to the Pontificate of Pius VI. Natalis himself concluded his labours at the end of the sixteenth century, but the history has been continued by other writers, and brought doAvn to the period just mentioned, 141. Mdiat is the Avork of Alzog ? — It is a compendious history of the Church, from its origin to the pi’esent time ; and it is chiefly because it brings the history of the Church down to our oavu days that I have adopted it. Alzog was a German professor in the College of llildesheim. 142. M'illyou inform the Commissioners, Avhether in the course of your lectures there is any direct course upon the Holy Scriptures? — Only so far as Ave expound the several texts which occur in our theological treatises. 143. You have no consecutive course? — No. 144. Are the Dunboyne students engaged in any regular course of study of the Scriptures? — No, they are not. , 145. Are there any lectures on the text of Scripture given to the Dunboyne students by yourself? — No. ; 146. But they have all of them passed through a course under the Professor of Hoi}' Scripture. — Yes; before they are appointed to the Dunboyne they must have concluded ;the Scripture course, Avliich extends over three or four years. 147. Vfhat is the doctrine taught in Maynooth College on the subject of the authority !of the Pope or the Church in matters of a ciA'il or tem])oral nature ? — We teach in Alay- hooth that the Pope has no temporal ])OAver whatever, direct or indirect. Me have affirmed that doctrine upon our solemn oatlis, and Ave firmly maintain it in the College of j^Iaynooth. 'We hold the same doctrine in regard to the Church. 148. The distinction betAveen temporal and spiritual aflairs is sometimes a verv nice one — " c 2 ith Orlohrr, I?ev. .lolin O’lliinloiu Instruction as to pastoral duties. Works of Dc'Iugo and Arriaga. Other scholastic writers. Natalis Alexander. Alzog. Stud}' of Sacred Scripture bjr Dun- boyne students. Temporal power of the Pope — Teaching in Maynooth on this subject. 12 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOAY 4th October, 1853. 2 . IJev. Jolin ( )’Hanlon. Distinctions between matters spiritual and matters temporal. 'Whether votin" at elections be a teni- l)oral or spiritual matter. is it not ? — It is, no doubt, a troublesome question ; I tbink, botvever, that I can tliroiv some light upon it. Tlie rule wliich is ordinarily given for distinguisliing betw een temporal and spiritual matters is tliis — “Those matters are of a spiritual nature wbiclt have ftr their immediate end or object tlie prevention of sin, the good order, piety, and sanctification of the Cliristian people and “ those matters are to bo regarded as tenqioral -wbicli have for their immediate end or object the peace, -well-being, and worldly bappiuess of human societ}'.” I lay emphasis on the word “immediate” end or olject, because it is obvious, that the remote or indirect end of any matter tvill not determine its character. If the remote end were capable of determining the order to wliich the matter belonged, it would necessarily follow tliat things wliich are essentially and confessedly spiritual tvould apper- tain to the tem])oral order, such, for instance, as the administration and reception of the sacraments, the preaching of the Word of God, &c., because, as the direct and immediate end of both is to make men good and ]>ious Christians, so the indirect and remote result must be to make them faithful and obedient subjects of the (^uecn. In their remote influence, therefore, they contribute to promote the interests and welfare of civil society. The distinction, therefore, between spirituals and temporals cannot be founded on the mediate or remote bearing of things. To assist us in drawing the line of demarcation between temporals and spirituals, some writers have furnished us Avith two other rules, which appear to me to serve their purpose admirably well. Those subsidiary rules Avill indicate a vast variety, if not the entire aggregate of spiritual matters. The first of those rules is — “ 'J’hoso matters are spiritual Avhich haA'O been instituted, commanded, or recom- mended by Christ. This rule is founded on the jirir.ciple tliat, as Christ exercised no temporal power — as “Ilis kingdom was not of this world”— all his institutions, ordinances, and counsels nuust be regarded as bearing an immediate relation solely to the sanctifica- tion and eternal welfare of man. The second subsidiary rule is — all those matters must be deemed spiritual which were regulated by the Apostles and their successors in the ministry, from the death of Christ to the conversion of the Emperor Constantine.” During the three first centuries of the Christian era, the Church possessed no temporal ])OAver. She did not possess it in virtue of any concession from Christ, for Ave arc agreed that Christ communicated no temporal authority to his Church. She did not derive it from the concession of secular princes, for during this period they Avere all enemies of the Christian religion, and persecutors of the Christian people. To -maintain that the Church acquired temporal poAver by usurpation, Avould be to maintain the rankest absurdity. Any attempt at usurpation Avould have been at once defeated, and have had no other effect than that of increasing the fury and vengeance of her persecutors, llesides, the su])position is incon- sistent Avith our ideas of the Church during those times, Avhich, according to Protestants themselves, Averc the golden ages of Christianity. The poAver, therefore, Avhich the Church e.xercised during the three first centuries, must have been spiritual poAver, and as jjOAver takes its denomination and character chiefly from the nature and (juality of the objects about Avhich it is conversant, the objects iu reference to Avbich the authority of the Church Avas at that ])eriod exercised must have been sj)iritual. I have a right, therefore, to con- clude, that all the matters Avhich I find regulated by the Church during tlie interval betAveen the deatli of Christ and the couA'ersion of Constantino the Great, are of a spiritual nature. Those are the chief princijdes Avhich I haA^e discoA'ered in my reading as tending to throAV light on a subject Avhich has embarrassed considerably not only Catholic but Protestant Avriters. It cannot be necessary to observe, that besides matters of a purely spriritual or temporal nature, there are others of a mixed character. By mixed matters Ave mean such as involve a tAvofold primary and direct relation, one to the Avorldly, and the other to the eternal happiness of man. 149. Su])pose that of tAvo members of parliament, one AA'Ould be disposed to establish the Boman Catliolic religion in Ireland, or to do it great service, and the other Avould be per- fectly indifferent to the matter, or perhaps hostile, Avould a vote for him from other motives, be a temporal or a spiritual matter, sup])osing both in other respects Avere equally eligible for discharging the duties of members of parliament ? — A vote from other motives for the ])arty Avho is supposed to be indifferent, or hostile, Avould be a temporal matter decidedly. In fact every vote for a member of parliament is a temporal matter, its immediate end or object being to invest a man Avith a trust or ])rivilege to be exercised to some extent or other for the Avorldly benefit of the people. A vote, hoAvever, for a member of parliament may become also a spiritual matter, because its direct and immediate eflect may sometimes be the commission or avoidance of sin. In the case supposed, I should think, no Catholic ])riest or layman Avould liesitate to vote for the man Avho is disposed to favour and protect Catholic interests in Parliament, and is in eA’ery other respect as Avell qualified and as well inclined, to discharge the duties of a member of parliament, as the party Avho i)rofesses indifference or liostility to those intei’csts. 150. Is that vote a spiritual or a temporal matter? — Whether that vote be a purely tem- poral or also a spiritual matter, depends upon the question, AA'hether a Catliolic is bound under ]iain of sin to promote by his vote the temporal furtherance and advancement of the Catholic Church. I should think that he is not obliged to do so, and, therefore, I should say the vote in question is a temporal matter. 151. Voting for the man you believe would be for the furtherance and temporal advance- ment of the Catholic religion ? — Of course ; the proposed case supposes so, as 1 understand it; and I repeat, that a priest, as a citizen, has a right to vote for the party who is friendly to the interests of the Catholic Church, and to use his influence in his behalf, just as much as any layman. The priest, as a priest, has no vote or any description of temporal power. 152. Do you teach the doctrine at Maynooth to prevent the priest acting in such a :.I1XL'T!:S OF KVIDEXCI'. 13 manner as to make it dubious whctlier he is actiii" iu Ids ecclesiastical function or in liis temporal or civil function? — So fir as 1 am concerned, I have never taucfht any doctrine iu Alaynooth on the suliject ; 1 hare never diseu.'sed the question, or touched upon it at all. I can have, however, no liesitation in stating that, in my opinion, tiie priest, iu his ecclesi- astical capacity, should cenfine himselc to the explanation and inculcation of the duties of the electors. If the electors require information or instruction, as they do fi-equently iu many jiarts of Ireland, 1 think the priest, as such, is not only justified, hut hound to teach and exjilain their duties. i .‘)3. What do you mean hy tlieir duty ? — 'fo .select the parties whom they conscientiously believe to he the fittest to represent them in the House of Commons, and to discharge the duties of a member of parliament. lol. Would you think the jiriest justified in strengthening his advice to them upon such a subject by the spiritual censure of the C hurch, or hy the enqiloyment of any influence of a spiritual character? — The jjriest is not competent to inflict any censure of the (hurcli. loj. Would he he warranted in withholding any sacraments of the Church from a man hy reason of his jireferring one candidate to another ? — Absolutely sjieaking, he would ; because a priest is not only warranted, hut hound to withhold the sacraments from a man who is disclosed to commit a mortal sin ; and as the case may absolutely arise in which a person, hy preferring one candidate to another, would e.xhihit that disjiosition, a case may consequently arise iu which the [iriest would he not only warranted, hut hound to withhold the sacraments from a man hy reason of his jireferring one candidate to another. But, practically speaking, the case can hut seldom occur, if it he assumed, as I do assume, that the two or more candidates are qualified for a seat in parliament : hecause, it can only occur where the superior fitness of one of the candidates is notable, decided, and undeniable. It is only in that case that the electors would, iu my opinion, he hound under the jiain of mortal sin to prefer one candidate to another. Xow, when the candidates are qualified, though in an unequal degree, it will rarely happen that the superior fitness of the one, in comparison with the other, will he notable, decided, and unquestionable. E.xperience proves the justness of this observation. The numerous instances in which the very men, who w'cre supported hy tlie priests, hecause they were deemed decidedly the best qualified for parliament, subsequently betrayed their constituents, and employed their influence not for the promotion of the public good, but for the furtherance of tlieir own private ends, prove clearly the extreme difficulty of ascertaining the superior fitness almost of any candidate. Besides, looking to the several elections which have taken place in my own time, there are but few indeed in which the priest, according to my notion of things, would he warranted in declaring to his people that it would he a mortal .sin to vote for any one of two or more candidates, believed to he qualified, though unequally so, for a place in parliament. lot). How could such a case occur? — 1 say that it can hut rarely occur. 107. As to teaching tliem their duties, there arc two modes in which it may he done — abstractedly, and with reference to a particular man. I may say, “Vote for the man you think the best candidate,” or I may say, “ Vote for A. B., hecause I tell you he is the best.” Can the latter he projierly done from the altar ? — I should make a distinction there. If his congregation he composed of persons as intelligent and as capable as himself, of pro- nouncing on the relative fitness of the candidates, I should say that he ought not to refer to a particular man, hut simply announce it to he their duty to vote for the party whom they conscientiously believe to he decidedly the best candidate ; hut if his congregation consist of simple, uneducated, ignorant people, who arc totally incompetent to decide on the merits or qualifications of the candidates, I maintain that the priest is warranted to call upon them to vote for a particular person, provided that this person’s superior fitness is clear, decided, and unquestioned hy the intelligent and enlightened portion of the community. It is the inalienable right and strict duty of the priest to remove the igno- rance of his people, particularly in reference to those duties upon the performance of ■which the |)uhlic good depends ; it is his business to place them in a position in which they shall he able to discharge those duties properly. In the su])position made, the peo})le cannot he placed in that position, if the priest do not particularize the candidate whom he considers the best qualified ; and, therefore, in the supposition made, he is not only justified, hut hound to particularize that candidate. Any thing bordering on denunciation of this or that party, any thing like personal abuse, I reprobate as strongly as any man, and I regard such proceedings as disgraceful to the priesthood and most detrimental to religion. 108. Supposing he said “ I would refuse the sacrament to any man who voted for A or B” ? — The case in wdiich the priest -would he warranted to conduct himself iu that manner, can, as I have stated, happen but rarely; besides the case which I have already indicated, I cannot conceive any other, except, perhaps, the almost metaphysical one, in which C, though personally not more qualified than A or B, might, in consequence of his political connexions or other accidental circumstances, he in a condition to carry some gr-eat and important public measure, such, for instance, as Catholic Emancipation. In such a case, which probably will not occur once in 500 years, the priest would, I think, he justified in refusing the sacrament to the electors who would refuse to vote for C. 159. Do you think that it is a doctrine to bo adopted, that the priest should preach that from the altar, and that he should refuse the sacrament to a person voting in a particular way ? — I think it is not, except in the rare and extreme cases just specified. Ordinarily it would he monstrous for him to announce any such doctrine, or to pursue such a course of conduct. ICO. Would not even that extreme case he a case of the exercise of a temporal right ? — The direct object of the exercise of a temporal right, is in some degree or other, the ■ith Octoher, 1853. Kev. Jolin 0'II;inlon. Duties of priests witlx respect to elections. tVhetlier w.urranted ill withholding the sacraments from voters on account of their pi-eference of jiartienlar candidates in certain cases. Whether a priest is warranted in recom- mending a particular candidate from the altar. 14 MATNOOTII COMMISSIOX temporal good of society, or tlie enforcement of a moral duty Ly a temporal sanction, llie onl}’ object wliich the priest proposes to himself, wlien he insists that the elector shall vote for tiiis rather than for tliat candidate, is the spiritual good of the elector, the avoidance ot sin, and he enfoi'ces the duty of the elector hy a S 2 )iritual and not hy a tcmpoi’al sanction, dhe right, therefore, Avliicli lie exercises is not a temporal right. IGi. Is not that, in fact, one of the cases where your own distinction a])plies, that you are to look at the immediate consp(piencc and hearing of an act, rather than the remote one, lor determining the quality of the case? — 1 do not see any thing in the distinction I made that would deprive the priest of the power of announcing it to he the moral duty of the people to vote for a particular candidate, when his superior fitness is a matter of certainty. The vote in question is of a mixed character ; it has lor one of its immediate objects the worldly benefit of society; for the other, the avoidance of sin, and the fulfil- ment of a moral duty. The priest, as a priest, has no right to direct or regulate the vote in reference to the first object precisely ; hut he lias a right to direct and regulate it in relation to the second; and to deter a man from the commission of sin, hy withholding from him the sacraments, cannot he deemed the exercise of a temporal power. It is clearly a spiritual function. 1G2. But how is it a spiritual thing for me to vote for a particular man, if my opinion as a layman is that it is better for me to vote for another ; is not the law of morality sufficiently satisfied by my voting according to the best of my judgment? — It is not a spiritual duty for you to vote for a particular person, if your opinion, that it is better to vote for another, is founded on solid and prudent grounds. It would, in that case be absurd to require that you should follow the directions of the priest. 1G3. The question that has been ptit to you has reference to the doctrine taught to the priest as to his I’ight from the altar, or when clad in his ecclesiastical robes, to dictate to the jmblic how they should vote ? — While 1 am free to admit, that it would bo more becoming, congruous, and expedient to address the people on such subjects outside the chapel, and not -when clad in his ecclesiastical robes, I must still say, tliat if a case arises in which the priest is conscientiously convinced that it is the bounden duty of his people to vote for a particular candidate, 1 do not see why the priest should be debarred from inculcating that oliligation from the altar, more than any oilier moral duty, particularly if he believes that his people are ignorant and require instruction on the subject. 1 have stated already that such a case can but rarely occur, and when it does, considerations of propriety and expediency may, and should, 1 think, generally induce the priest to refrain from that topic at the altar, and to select some other time and place for enlightening his people on the subject. 1G4. Could the priest impose that jiarticular way of voting upon me, as a layman, by any particular pow'er he possesses, contrary to my judgment?— If your judgment be a prudent and rational one, he could not; if your judgment be not rational, he could insist upon your disregarding that judgment, and practically adopting his owm — not under piain of ecclesiastical censure, for even a bishop, according to the discipline of the Church, would act iuq)ropei ly in inflicting a censure upon a layman for such an offence. The priest, however, in this latter supposition, if you refuse to act upon the instructions he gives j’ou, should necessarily regard you as an incorrigible sort of person, and as manifestly intent on tlio commission of sin. 1G5. You consider a priest has no right to impose a duty iqion him of voting contrary to his opinion ? — Assuming that his opinion is based on prudent grounds, and that he is as well qualified to form an opinion as the j)riest himself, the latter has no right to impose a duty upon him to vote contrary to his opinion. The case is different with simple, ignorant people — a very numerous class in Ireland — who are utterly incompetent to form any rational or decided judgment on the matter, without the aid or advice of some intelligent person. Speaking of this class of persons, 1 tliiiik the priest is not only authorized, but bound, to prescribe the coui'se they should pursue, if, after deliberately and dispassion- ately weighing the relative merits of the candidates, he is convinced that it is the duty of the electors to vote for this qr that particular pei-son. I don’t mean to say that eveiy priest proceeds in this cool, deliberate manner, or to imply th.at, even wdien he does, he is not liable to err ; for 1 believe that priests, with the best intentions, and proceeding in the most cautious way, have been often instrumental in returning men to parliament wdio were the very persons whom the electors should not have supported. 1G6. Does not the very fact that the priest very often makes a mistake, and advises people to vote for A. or B., who afterwards turns out to be not the most eligible person, show that he is a little stepping bevmnd the province of mere morals, where he not only announces, but exercises a kind of sacerdotal authority in behalf of one man? — No; it only proves that he may, like every other man, sometimes step beyond the bounds of his duty, or that he may err even when discharging his duty to the best of his ability, 1G7. It is hardly a moral duty. The moral duty is to act according to your conscience, is it not? — The moral duty is, to act according to your conscience properly and rationally formed. If I understand matters rightly, the British Constitution, in vesting men with the right to vote, imposes upon them the duty, the moral duty, of using it advantageously for the public weal ; and I cannot yet see ivhy a priest is not justified in announcing that duty, and urging a compliance with it, or why he should not instruct the ignorant how that duty is to be performed. 168. Is it his, more than any other person's business to do so? — It is, because the priest is their official moral instructor and pastor. ^IIXUTKS OF EVIDFXCK. 1.3 Ifif). A’’oting according to your conscioncc is a question of pure morals? — Yes, par- ticularly when it involves the (piestion of avoiding or committing sin ; and, like every other question or case of conscience, it must he determined on prudent and lational grounds. If there be an elector as capal)lc of judging as the priest, and if that elector has grounded his opinion on probable and sound reasons, it would he ridiculous to expect that he shoidd renounce his own ojunion and ado})t that of the priest; l)ut if the elector he an ignorant, uneducated person, and incapable of forming an opinion upon that ]>arti- cular matter himself, to act ].rudently, he must take the o])inion of some one more intelli- gent than himself. If the elector he ignorant or doubtful whether a particular contract into which he is disposed to enter be lawful or otherwise, prudence and a sense of religion will suggest the necessity of taking the 0 ])inion of his priest ; and why, therefore, should not j)rudence and a sen.se of religion dictate the same course when he is ignorant or doubt- ful whether it is sinful or not to vote for a certain candidate. 170. He might equally have recourse to any other intelligent person, might he not?— lie might, if he had the same confidence in him, and ])erhapsget more light, and a sounder opinion ; but that is no reason why the priest should not instruct him, or why ho should not take tlio priest's advice. 171. The ([uestion is not, whether it is wrong to apply to the priest for advice upon this or that question, but whether it is right for the priest to assume to himself the authority to dictate upon the question? — I say it is my iin])ression and conviction, that the priest, when there is question of those ignorant and simple people, is not only warranted, but bound to teach them their moral duty as much in this as in any other matter. 17'2. 13ut their moral duty only consists of voting for a ])roper candidate? — If that doctrine be true, it woidd be wrong for the priest to insist upon their voting for the best can- didate.* But 1 think it is not true ; for, according to the common opinion of moral writers, the supreme authority of every country is hound to employ, for the performance of all important public functions, those Tpersons who are notably and decidecjly the best qualified. The natural inference, therefore, is, that the British legislature, when conferring the elec- tive franchise, imposed upon the electors the obligation of voting for the party best quali- fied to discharge the duties of a member of parliament. Besides, irrespectively of the real or supposed intention of the British legislature, moral writers maintain that electors, even when there is question of secular offices of great consequence to society, are bound, under j)ain of grievous sin, to select the most worthy and competent of the candidates for those offices. 173. \"ou think it is the moral duty of an ignorant man to vote as the priest directs him? — I think it is, until he finds some safer guide. 174. How is a man’s degree of information to be measured, so as to ascertain w’hether he ought to be guided by his priest in this matter or not?. — It is difficult, if not impossible, to give a precise mathematical rule for deciding that point in every particular case. It is often, however, easy to know when his ignorance is such as to render th.e guidance of the priest necessary ; when, for instance, he is totally incompetent to form any opinion on the relative merits of the candidates, or wdien he is found to have formed opinions manifestly erroneous and absurd. 175. Who is to decide that question, wffiether they are incompetent— themselves or the priest? — The electors themselves frequently feel and acknowledge their incompetency. 'J'he ])riest, or any other man of intelligence, acquainted with the people, can have no difficulty in deciding the question. 176. Supposing there are two competent and equally intelligent persons in a parish : one says A is the best qualified, another says B is the fittest ; is it the duty of the elector to take not only the advice, but to follow', as his absolute and authoritative guide, the advice of the priest ? — If the elector is aware of this difference of opinion between the two persons whom he regards as equally com])etent and intelligent, he should, 1 thiirk, suspend his judgment, and inquire w hat are the sentiments of the other competent and intelligent members of the community. If he should discover that the great majority of those concurred in the opinion of one of the parties referred to in the question, it would be his duty to act upon the opinion of that party ; if he should find that they were equally, or nearly so, divided, he might vote for A, and would not be bound to vote for B, the candidate recommended by the priest. 177. You think in that case the advice of the priest ought not, by virtue of his being a priest, to overbear altogether an enlightened layman?— If the intelligent and disinterested portion of the community entertain, as I have observed, diflerent opinions on the relative merits of the candidates, the superior fitness of the one compared with the other must be a matter of doubt, and in such a case the priest w'ould, in my opinion, act improperly in undertaking to decide the question, or in announcing it to be the duty of the electors to vote for his favourite candidate To show' that I am borne out in this view' by the prin- * I prescind here from those cases in which the unfortunate elector cannot vote for the party considered, and justly considered, the best qualified, without invdving: himself and his family in ruin. There are but few, I should suppose, if any, who would maintain that such elector, except in those rare and unusual circumstances in which the public good would demand an extraordinary sacrifice, was hound to vote at all ; and there are, pro- bably, many who would contend that, when the same evil consequences to himself and his family would be the result of his neutrality, he might lawfully vote for the opponent of the best qualified candidate, provided that the former be simply and absolute^' fit to be a member of parliament. I entertain no doubt that he could, at all events, lawfully do so when his vote would neither effectively contribute nor be necessary to secure the return of the fittest candidate. I can conceive no case in which an elector woidd be justified in voting for a person clearly and decidedly unfit and unworthy, unless where the vote is given for the purpose of excluding a party still more so. It/i Orlohrr, Itjod. 2 . llov.,fohn O'llanlon. Voting according to conscience is a moral duty. The moral duty con- sists not merely in voting for a proper candidate, but in voting for the best candidate. Case of conflicting opiinions as to the comparative fitness of candidates. 16 MAYXOOTII C 03! MISSION. 4port tho best (pialilied. 189. In reference to the bisho|)S, if they give any instructions to the priests within their several districts to take a certain lino of conduct as to the elections, would it be a ]>art of their canonical obedience to follow such instructions? — If the bishop issues iustructiojis of an obligatory character, the priests are bound to follow such instructions. Put the bishop lias no right to give instructions of an obligatory nature, unless when he has strong and evident grounds for believing that his people, by not voting for a particular candidate, would commit sin. 190. The judge of the evidence upon that c.ase must he liimsclf? — Of course. 191. Vflieuevcr lio thinks it evident that h.o ought to do that, he may ; and canonical obedience would he ini])osed ? — Yes ; unless there was clear and decisive reason for con- cluding that the bishop had mistaken false fur true evidence. 192. Would tho canonical obedience be obli.gatory ? — Yes; because the bishop lias a i canonic.al riglit to command bis priests to prevent the electors from voting in such a way i as would involve them in the guilt of sin. I 19.'>. In such a case a jiricst would bo under tlic oath of obcuienco to bis superior? — i A priest takes no oath of obedienco to Ids bishoj) ; ho v.muld, however, he under tlie pro- ' misc of obedience, which he made on tho occasion of his ordination, provided that it i.s clearly a case in which the electors, by not pursuing the course indicated in tlic instruc- I tions of tlic bishop, ivould commit sin. i 191. Who is to judge of t!ic clearness of tlie case? — Every sensible, intelligent man ; acquainted with the claims or merits of the candidates, and with tlie laws of morality, can judge of it. ^ 195. The person wdio gives the instructions, or the person who obeys? — Poth the bishop ; and tho priest are competent to judge, whether it be clear or not, that the electors by voting for a certain candidate would commit sin. : 19(). The question is with regard to obedience; Avho is to judge of that? — Tf there he i priests of as sound and clear a mind as tlie bisliop, as, no doubt, thcro arc, .and if they have convincing and decisive proof that the bishop, who is far from being infallible, has taken a wrong view of things, they will judge, and judge rightly, that they are not bound to cany ; out the instructions of tho bisliop. 197. In that case, the priest would judge for himself whether it was or not an act of obedience? — In that ca.so the priest would judge that conformiiy to the bishop’s instruc- ' tions was not an act of canonical obedience. 1 98. You stated, did you not, that the bull, cmio, P-omini ” was not in force in Ireland ? ' — I have the best possible authority for th.at statement. Tf it Avere in force in Ireland, it ■ Avould have been a most serious mistake of our prelates to state ia the House of Lords that 1 it had never been received. 199. The hull “ coznd Domini” lias ncA'er been reccHed in Ireland? — So far as I know, it never has ; and I ground my opinion, first, on the authority of the ]jrclate.s Avho affirmed on their oaths in 1825, that it never had been received; and, secondly, on the fact, tliat i if it Avere received, every person printing, reading, or possessing hooks Avritten by a heretic on the subject of religion, or on any other subject, if they should contain heresy, Avould incur an excommunication reserved to the Pope. A similar excommunication Avould be incurred by all secular magistrates and judges for trying or punishing ecclesiastics for criminal ofiences, except in the cases allowed by the canon law. Xow, no man in Ireland ever dreams that by such acts any description of excommunication is incurred. The universal impression, therefore, is, that tho bull “ ccena Domini ” is not received nor of force in Ireland. 200. It is stated that that bull is noAV printed in one of the A’oinmes of Dens’ Theo- logy ? — I cannot contradict that statement, though it is not printed in the copy of Dens which I ha\'e. My cop)', liowcver, Avas printed in Belgium. 201. But the printing of it in that volume docs not give it authoriry ? — Certaiidy not ; to acquire authority it should be published Avith a vicAV to its reception and enforcement. 202. In reference to the third canon of tho fourth Council of Latcran that is cited by Cabassutius, in his treatise on canon law, has tliat canon been received in Ireland? — il "Xo, nor in any other country, unless where it was adopted by the secular authority. I I I|1 I \_The witness withdrew^ 4lh Ocloler, ISjS. 2 . Kev. JohaUlIanloii. .Supposed c.ase as to interference of the Pope in elections. Of the Bishops. AVliethcr hull “ewna Domini” be in force in Ireland. d 18 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. 4/« October, 1853. ~ 3 ." IJev.G.Crolly, s.T.r. J)iscontinuance of IJailly’s Theology as a dass-book. E [feet of a work being put on the Index. Expediency of Pro- fessors preparing a course of their own. Kev. Geof/je Crollj, s.t.p., examined. 1. You are Professor of Tlieolog}’’ ? — Yes. 2. Is it not the fact that ]\1. Ihiilly’s book has been discontinued, on account of its having been placed on the Index at liome ? — Y"es. 3. That is by order of the Trustees, is it not ? — Yes. 4. In what points do the doctrines of Bailly differ from those of Scavini, and which have led to the exchange ? — Ileally I could not tell that. I cannot tell the precise reason why Baill}^ was put on the Index. His Gallican opinions were the cause, I suppose, in a great degree ; but the work in which he puts forward these views was not a class-book in Maynooth. I have heard that a proposition which he lays down about matrimony, in which he maintains that the civil power could institute (hriraent impediments of matri- mony, had a share in getting his works put on the Index. This doctrine is very offensive to Home. I never heard any other cause than that. "What Scavini teaches upon the subject I cannot say. I have not read his Treatise on Matrimonj’-, as it forms no joart of my lectures during the current academical year; but I am sure he differs from Bailly on the point I have mentioned. I do not think that I shall be able to teach it, though it would fall, on other subjects, into ni_y course. I thiidc I shall be obliged to use another tract. Scavini is only ordered for one year, and the students have not got the book, therefore it would be impossible to teach it. If they are supplied with it in proper time, I shall, of course, teach it. !Most likelj' it will be the treatise of Carriere, a French theologian, which I shall be obliged to use on Restitution and Contracts, or that of another French author called Lyonnet, who has written on the same subject; for the students have those books, and I am not aware that they contain any objectionable doctrines on the subjects of which I shall have to treat. Carriere holds the offensive doctrine which has been attributed to Bailly in his Treatise on Matrimony ; but I do not teach that treatise during the present year. 5. Do you understand, as a matter of course, that anj' book put upon the Index is excluded from the course of teaching in Maynooth ? With regard to that, no case ever occurred before. In France, in the very college, I believe, where Carriere, one of the authors whom I liave just mentioned, holds a chair, Bailly was the class-book. When his j Avorks were put on the Index, the professors applied to Rome, representing the incon- I venience which would result if they were obliged at once to give up their ordinary class- book; and they were allowed to continue it for a time after it was put in the Index; and, I i suppose, if a similar application had been made, we would have also been allowed to use it , for a time. It is not put out of the course because the Index is binding in this country, but, I suppose, on account of the indecency of using in the college, as a class-book, a work of which the head of the Roman Catholic Church had expressed his disapprobation, by V allowing it to be put on the Index. ' G. It is not that the Index has any authority here, but as a matter rather of propriety j and fitness the Trustees discontinued it ? — Yes. j 7. They have thought it fitting, therefore, to discontinue it as a class-book ? — Y"es. j 8. Would it be fitting, under these circumstances, to refer to it as a book, though no longer a class-book?— -As a matter of fact, many students have been reading the book since | the i)rohibition. Bailly’s Dogmatic Theology formed no part of our course, and Ave never taught the offensive doctrine contained in his Treatise on Matrimony. j 9. Because the lArohibition does not extend to this country ?— Y"es. When a book is put on the Index there may be two things clearly inferred — one is, that it contains some objectionable doctrine ; and secondl}', that censures are attached to the reading of that book. As to the first point, namely, its containing objectionahle doctrine, it is not an . article of faith in any way that the doctrine is unsound because the work Avhich contains j it has been put in the Index, but it Avill be considered to be an unsound opinion ; still it will continue to be a mere matter of opinion, and not an article of faith. The reason Avjjy i the opinion wovdd be considered unsound is not at all that placing a book on the Index ; forms any jiart of the infallible teaching of the Church, but simply that the authorities at Rome must be considered to be well acquainted AA'ith the doctrine and teaching of the j Church. With regard to the Index, as containing censures Avhich are incurred by those who read books placed upon it, that part is not received in this country. 10. Therefore it Avould not be a censurable act in this country to read it after it had been put in the Index ? — It would not. 11. Y^ou seem to think that it Avould be desirable if the professors themseRes had a course of their OAvn ? I am quite certain that it would be most desirable, for the reasons I have stated in answer to the AA’ritten questions Avhich Avei’e proposed to me. j 12. That there should be some definite course Avhich all persons might recognize as the | authorized teaching of Maynooth ? — Y'es ; that both those Avho believe its doctrine and those who do not, might see what is really taught in Maynooth. The jirofessors of theology j pi’oposed, without anj" relation whatever to any inquiry into their teaching, to Avrite a course i if they Avere allowed time. 13. Is that the common practice in foreign universities ? — Ycry common. 14. That the several universities should haA'e a coAirse of their own ? — YTs. 15. Distinguishing the sjAecial character of their OAA’n teaching ? — They Avrite the com’se, and, consequent!}', their special teaching Avill a2:>pear in that course. 10. From the class-books uoaa’ in use and authorized at Maynooth, can the spirit of the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 19 tcucliing in 'Mnynootli be fairly' inierred upon eveiy point? — It cannot be deduced at all, excei)t in wliat concerns tlie Catliolic doctrine and delined things; but with regard to any details of teaching it cannot be deduced at all. I do not form my oi)inions from the class- book, because 1 consider that when I lecture upon a subject it is my duty to ascertain not what any man teaches, but wliat is true and what is false. Having formed my opinion upon that, 1 lecture according to what 1 believe, without reference to the peculiar opinions of the class-book in matters of opinion. Eveiy student is aware of this, and lie knows that it would be no answer to sa}" that the class-book holds any opinion — he must prove it from revelation or reason, or from the decisions of the Church. 17. That would apiily to the whole class of scholastic theology, w'ould it not ? — To the whole of both moral and scholastic, dogmatic and moral, except where a thing is defined ; but where an opinion is not defined, the professor, of course, makes up his mind and gives his reasons, lie does not force his opinions upon his class or upon those whom he lectures ; but he tries to convince them, by reason, or Scripture, or authorit}', that he is right, and they know that they can form an independent judgment about what he says. As a matter of fact, they generally will follow the oiiinions of the professor. 18. In what way could any person form an opinion — to what would you refer him as indicating the opinions at Mayiiooth, or the course of teaching at Ma 3 uiooth upon disputed points ? — I could not refer the Commissioiiers to any book ; and I have alreadj' stated that in my written answers. I do not know any course of theology that would indicate exactly the opinions taught in jMaynooth : and the reason of this is, wdth regard to the old writers, that those opinions which were current in their times are embodied in their teaching — as, for instance, the temporal power of the Church and of the Popes ; the French writers, on the other hand, have held opinions many of which I believe to be founded on state- ments which are not facts, but falsehoods. For instance, the}^ state that it is the defined doctrine of the Church that a Council without the Pope is above the Pope. I believe that to be false, because I believe that a council cannot be general unless it represents tlie head as well as the members — the Pope as well as the Church — and neither the one nor the other separately. IMoreover, most of the French treatises are full of I'l-ench civil laws and royal edicts, which are not onlv useless and embarrassing to a student, but are calculated to mislead him, inasmuch as on such matters as contracts he might mistake the positive enactments of a foreign code for the deductions of reason ; consequently I could not refer to any course as embodying our pi’esent teaching. 19. You think it desirable that there should be some definite course that could be referred to ? — I think the Commissioners must see that this must plainly be the case ; in fact it would have saved these im^uiries if we had a written course, to which we could refer for our teaching. 20. It has been suggested that such a course should be composed ? — It has. 21. Has that been long under the consideration of the Trustees ? — The immediate cause of bringing it before them was the withdrawal of the former class-book. Independentlj" of this, many of us were desirous of an opportunitj^ of writing a course of our own — one of the professors of theology had actually proposed to write one treatise ; but the immediate cause of making this application to the Trustees was this ; — we were desired to point out some course of theologj" which we could adopt as the basis of our teaching ; but we could not find an}' such course ; and the result was, that w'e made an application to the Trustees, offering to write a course of theology if they made certain modifications in our lectures. 22. In what way would such a course be composed ; it must be such as would receive the assent of all the several teachers of theology ? — As to that, I should saj' that it would be divided, so as to assign particular parts to each. We would not put down opinions that we did not know to coincide with the teaching of the College. I dare say it would get a general revision by the theological faculty. We would naturally talk over the dis- puted points, and if there was aii}' difference of opinion regarding them we would come to a decision before committing them to writing. I am sure, at all events, that this course would be in perfect accordance with our teaching. ' 23. You imagine a course wdiicli, being composed by the several professors, should receive the sanction of the Council and the Trustees ? — Yes ; if there was a Council for teaching. The Council at present contains some members who have nothing to do with the teaching. I think it should receive the approbation of the heads of the College and of the theological facult}'. I- am not aware that it would be desirable or even desired by an}’’ other parties in the College to have any thing to do with it. However, I should have no objection to their expressing their opinions, if they desired it. I do not think that they would take it upon them to interfere in such a matter. 24. I presume that any such course w'ould be submitted for the sanction of the Trus- tees ? — Yes, certainly, and necessarily. 25. A plan is under consideration at present, is it not? — -Yes. 20. You have stated that you lecture upon the Evidences of ChristianiW, from the treatise of Dr. Delahogue ? — That is the class-book; it is called a treatise “ De Religione.” 27. Are there anv more treatises of Dr. Delahogue’s still in use — Yes, the treatises, “ De Reli gione,” “ De Ecclesia,” “De Poenitentia,” “De Sacramentis in Genere, ” “De Eucharistia,” “De Trinitate et Incarnatione” — I do not now remember any other; I should say that these are the whole. 28. Are those treatises all more or less class-books ? — Yes, they are all. Our comse I was made up a good deal out of his tracts. ‘ d 2 4//i Ocliihcr, IS.'i.’l. 3. Kcv. G.Crolly, s.t.i*. Spirit of tcaehin" in Maynooth cannot lie inferred from class- books. Suggestion that course should he composed for the College. Proposal made hy Professors to Trus- tees. Treatises of Dr. Delahogue. 20 may:n’ootii co:.niissiox. 4//( Oiioher, 1803. 3. llov. G. Croll 3 % s.T.r. SuKPC.«tu(l study of Jliblical Greek during diviiiitv years. Study of Greek. Entrance examina- tion. English. 20. In fact there liave been no class-booksprepavetl forilaynooth since Dr.Dclahogue's? None iirepared bj' any one in the College. 30. No class-book has been prepared tor the College either in or out of it? — 'i'hcre has not been any pro])ared. 31. Do yon think that it might be desirable if the classical studies tvero not so abso- lutely terminated as they are at a particular year, but were carricul on in som<‘ decree throughout the whole course of education ? — I think it would be most desirable if a plan could be laid down for that purpose, which could be easily done. 32. Thei-e would be no difficulty in engrafting upon the present distribution of time a certain addition of classical studies, so that the studies should become identilied more and more with general instruction at the time the student was devoting himself to the special study of his future profession ?— It would be in a great measure a beneheial study if Greek were taught out of the Bible. 33. Or the Greek fathers? — Yes, either would do ; because though it may not be the anost classical Greek, there are so many words in the Bible that any person able to translate it fluently, must be well acquainted with the Greek language. 34. Would it be an advantage if general instructio}i went throughout hand in hand with the whole course of education? — I think itwould be very desirable in that way. I should tliink that mere classics continued throughout our tlieological course wouhl not he desirable : as to Latin, the lectures are in Latin, and the students’ treatises are in Latin, so that 1 do not think there is any necessity at all to have instruction in Latin ; but with regard to Greek there is great need of instruction, and tiiis would be imparted in the way I have men- tioned. 35. Y'ou read from the Vulgate ? — Y^es, but I also often refer to the Greek and Hebrew text. 3(). Y’’ou consider, generally speaking, that an adequate proficiencj' in Greek is not attained by the mass of students? — They have attained a considerable proliciency in-Greek in the early part of their studies, but after they have read philosophy for two years without having tlieir attention at all turned to Greek, they commence their course of divinitja The student is not obliged to study Greek during his divinity course ; and thus when he enters my class four entire years liave intervened since Greek Inis formed any nei^essary part of his collegiate studies. I should think he could not possil >ly recollect it after having his attention entirely withdrawn from it for so long an interval. 37. It is not the practice to keep uji the study of Greek after the jiroper Greek class is passed? — No, except that the more distinguished students will occasionally refer to the Greek text, and in that way some knowledge of Greek may be kept vq-). I am sure there are many theological students who know Greek well, but I speak of the whole body of divinity students. 38. Would it be an improper occupation of the time of the student after passing the Greek year, if he read passages from I'lato or Aristotle, or any work in pl.ulosophy in Greek ? — I should say no one would inteifere with him, but he finds that he has enough to do in attending to his ordinary coui'se of studies. 39. L>o 3 'ou consider that such a course should be prescribed ? — Ws, to study the Greek Bible, and some of the Greek fathers. 40. Are you ordinarily one of the examiners for the entrance course? — I am not, but I attend occasionally — I mu not bound to attend the entrance examinations by any rule, and I have not been a regular attendant ; but 1 sometimes attend diming the academical yetm when freshmen enter. 41. When you do attend do you find the students in-etty -well prepared for entrance into the Gollege ? — As to classical studies the}' are pretty w'eil prepared, as to other things there is a great deficiency. 42. In English, for example ? — YVs. I do not mean to say that we know that from the entrance examination ; there is no entrance examination in English. I know it to be the fact from what I find afterwards. 43. Y’ou think that the cultivation of English should lie carried on throughout, as well as of the classical languages, to a certain extent ? — YVs, it would be very well ; but the Com- missioners must be aware that unless the student be grounded at an early period of life in the rudiments of English, he never can be taught them again with half so much advan- tage. 44. Do you think there should be an examination in English composition as part of the entrance course ? — YVs, there should be at least thus much of examination, that the student should be desired to write a letter, in order to test at once his knowledge of tlie mere rudiments of both grammar and spelling. 45. As a matter of fact that is required by the regulation with regard to the entrance course ? — I know that it is not done as a matter of fact. Lan^acte of divi- 46. Do you lectime in Latin or in English ? — In Latin, which is prescribed for the theo- uity lectures. logical lectures : I occasionally speak in English also. I lecture in the first place in Latin, but I afterwards generally give a summary of explanation in English, lest there might be some misunderstanding — not that the students do not understand Latin iierfectly well, but just for the sake of clearness. 47. Do the students generally answer in Latin ? — Ws ; and in the same way if there he any misunderstanding, they are allowed to explain in English I would not allow a student to go on answering in Enghsh for any considerable time. 48. What are the advantages of lecturing in Latin ? — In the first, place it keeps up a *lIIXUTi:S Cl' EVlDKXCi:. 21 l:no\vk\lge of the L;\1in, an;l fuiriiliiirizes Ktmlents with it ; in tlic second place, I do tliiiik tli.it speaking in a foreign laugnage lias tlio advantage of keejiing persons more to the point; and I lind by cxperioniaj, thativlicna student begins to talk in I'lnglish, it is some- times almost impos.slide for me to get him to answer t'ne precise thing I ask; but in Jjatin he must answer, generally siieaking, to the poii.t, or not at ail. •J;J. In other words, his language would be more precise? — \'es. 51). lie is obliged to lo.ik his own thought in the hicc, as it wei'e ? — Yes. 51. ]>ut supposing a person ixgiegts an iniiirojier answer in Latin, do you thinlc yon .arc able to satisfy yourself so tvell of liis understanding wiiat lie says, as if you allowed him the free use of English ? — Better, I should s.iy, for this reason — if a person gets talking a great deal about some simple thing, 1 sometimes understand at the end very little of what he says. 1 do not say tiiat teaching in laitin is essential, or that teaching in English might not attain substantiaily the same end, but 1 think teaching in Latin has advantages in itself, indejieudentl}’’ of keeping up a knowledge of the lar'guage. 5:2. There is this disadvantagi', that you do not keep up a Iviiowledge of English ? — No ; the students speak English in the Scripture Class, and in the History Class, during the whole divinit}' course. 5d. In the Scripture Class do they lecture from the Greek text? — As a person.al matter I cannot tell wliat the Professor of Scripture lectures ifom ; hut the Vulgate is the class hook which is used by the students, and out of which the professor interrogates. That tiic professor studies the Greek text I am quite certain. 5-1. At nrosent the students do not devote any time to the study of Biblical Greek ? — No ; I cannot answer for every one, but as a matter of necessity ib.ey do not. 55. In fact the Greek language is not necessarily studied by them after they leave the Pdietoric Class? — No. 50. If tliej’' wish to attain to the Punboyne Establishment they would be expected, gene- rally, to show a competent knowledge of Greek, would they not ? — No ; there is no reason whati:ver to induce candidates for the Punboyne Establishment to study Greek. The elections to the Punboyne take ’place in conseipuence of the premiums or distinctions they have obtained in their regular course. 5"/'. 'Which in themselves have no relation to a knowledge of Greek ? — Y/hicli in them- selves have im relation to a knowledge of Greek, or very little. A person may have got a premium in Greek when reading it, and that would be taken into account, but that is all. It is not one of the necessary (pialifications that he should get any distinction in Greek at all ; but in the case of two persons equal in other respects, certainly it would decide between them. 58. Y\'ouhl there be an examination in Greek specifically for that purpose ? — No ; tlie College bool:s record those premiums, and when an election is about taking place for tlie Punboyne, the book is opened, and the premiums obtained by each qualified candidate are read from it. 5iJ. There is no specific examination for the Punboyne Establishment? — No. GO. Merely a reference to their jirevious success? — Yes; but the students do stud}^ with a view to getting on the Punboyne Est.iblisliment. Gl. You have stated tliat it would be desircrip- liirc nii'l lv;;;;Iesiasti- cal Ilistury. Election for Dun- boy ucEstablishmcut. Xo specilic examina- tion. Alteration in Divi- nity ClasjOi. ImpvovciTiCDts in • Enironcc E-xamina- tion. 22 MAYXOOTII CO.MMISSIOX. 4//t October, 1853. ~3T T!ev. G.Crolly, s.t.p. 5/// October, 1853. Eailly’s Theology. Supposed reasons for placing that work upon the Iiide.K. Teaching of witness as to respective right of civil and spiri- tual powers with re- select to marriage. 72. Are you aware at all of the reason ? — I cannot tell ; I do not know any reason. 73. You have stated in your answer to the 2Rth interrogatory, that you think that Dun- boyne Students might render great assistance ? — I have. ' 7-1. "What you suggest would be in accordance with those Statutes, would it not ? — Quite in accordance with them. 75. In what manner do you think their services could he advantageously rendered? — With regard to that, I should rather write what 1 think. \The Witness icithdrciv. — Adjourned to to-morrow , at 12 o'clochT^ Wedxesd.vy, 5th October, 1853. Rev. Georr/e Crollij, s.t.p., further examined. 1. A"ou have stated to the Commissioners that the theological work of Bailly, formerly used in the College, has been discontinued by order of the Trustees, it having been placed on the Index, as you supposed, on the ground that he taught that the civil power could institute diriment impediments to matrimony ? — Yfhich means that the matrimonial contract could be invalidated by the civil power, not onl}' as regards temporal effects and in fero externo, but also before God and in conscience; and, consequently, that the marriage contract, which Roman Catholics believe to be a sacrament, if pei formed without observing the things required only by the civil poAver, would be invalid ; and the parties, though observing all that is required by the law of God and of the Church, would still be living in a state of concubinage. 2. About wliat time did Bailly write ? — At the end of the last century, or at the beginning of this century. He was a French refugee priest; and I think he died in 1808. 3. Did he teach that doctrine to which you allude now more especially with reference to the French laws ? — It Avas Avith reference to tlie French laws solely that he taught it ; and, indeed, he seems to have taught it more in Avords toan in substance, for I have ahvays thought his language on this subject very obscure. 4. Will the discontinuance of his Avork make any alteration in your teaching upon this subject ? — It Avill make no change AA'hatever, because I have ne\Tr taught his ojAinion on this subject, even when his A’cork Avas our class-book. 5. If you do not teach the opinion of this author upon this subject, Avhat opinion do jmu teach ? — I have taught in accordance Avith Avhat I have been desired to explain to-da}’, that the tAvo poAvers, the temporal and the spiritual, are distinct and supreme, each in its OAvn order. I have, consequently, taught, so far as matters directly regarding the soul Avere concerned, that the State had, in my opinion, no right to interfere, and, therefore, no right to prevent the Church from administering the sacrament as she thinks fit ; and, on the contrary, that the Church had no right to regulate the civil effects and disabilities Avhicli Avould follow from the conditions justly required hy the State not being observed in temporal things. I, consequently, taught the necessary inference from the leading opinion that the two poAvers are perfectly distinct and indeiAendent of each other — that the authority of the civil poAver extends to, and is limited by temporal affairs, and that the authority of the Church extends to, and is limited b,y spiritual affairs. G. Do you lay doAvn any rule of distinction for a clergyman avIio, when called upon to perform a marriage lawful by the laws of the Church, still finds that on account of its being contrary to the laAVs of the State, it Avill expose the parties to all the disadvantages and temptations of a marriage which either party might, so far as the cml laAv is concerned, safely disavoAv ? — With respect to that question, it either regards persons of substance or rank in society, or the ordinary case Avhich a clergyman meets with among the 2 ioor. If the individuals to be married were XAersons of property or of rank, undoubtedl}" I should think it my tluty to make them comijly, so far as I coAild, Avith the rules of the State, on account of the civil disabilities AAdiich either themselves or their offs^n’ing Avould incur from a marriage which the civil laAV Avould regard as invalid. With regard to the jAOorAvho come every daj"^ to be married, they do not care one farthing, generally, AA'hether the state regards their marriages as valid or not; and although undoubtedly even in these cases inconveniences may folloAv, in some rare instances, from the marriage not being recognized by the laAV of the land — as, for instance, the husband may desert the Avife — yet I think a clei-gymanwmuld waste his time in trying to induce them to do more than is necessary to render the marriage valid in conscience. If they get the clergyman to lAerform his part, the}’- do not care about the state. 7. Affinity without a dispensation is an impediment um dirimens ? — Yes. 8. SupjAOsing first cousins married Avithout a dispensation, or Avithout a disjAensation obtained in due form, AA’hat docti’ine would you teach as the duty of a clergyman in case a man Avished to marry a second wife, the first being alive ? — A"ou suppose that the man is married Avithout the leaA’e of the Catholic Church, and that he comes and says, “ This is no marriage, I Avant to marry another.” Well, either you siipjAOse that those parties were married in some other church — the Protestant, say — or you supjAose that they Avere not married at all ? 9. Xo; I sujApose that they were maiTied, and did not knoAV tliat they were first cousins, or they obtained a dispensation which happened by accident to be invalid? — The result would be that I would advise them to obtain a dispensation and to marry, and in the mean- time to observe the rules of the church. 10. Y"ou think that they incurred sin in not trying to repair their error by obtaining a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 23 dispensation properly ? — Certainly, and that tliey should marry — undoubtedly it would ho the duty of the man, and ot‘ both, to hccome validly married. 11. SVould you refuse to marry a man in sueh a ease if he wanted to marry a different person ? — Yes, except 1 found that the man was entraj>ped. 1 teach that unless some particular circumstance interfei'ed — such as '^;l■i^Jvous falsehood or deception — which might excuse cither of the parties from marrying the other, that it would be the duty of both to ai>ply for a dis])ensation; and d' either refused, that he or she shoidd not be married to another unless the other paity consented. If it was a fair contract, as when the parties were not aware of the impediment, or the dispensation was invalid, 1 teach that a priest should not marry either party to any other unless both consented to this course, or the dispensation were refused. Of course I supi)ose the impediment to be one in which the church can dis[)ense — that it is not an impediment of natural or divine law. 1 2. It has been stated tliat Badly had incurred severe censures on account of his extreme Gallican opinions. Vdl the withdrawal of the book alter your opinions u})on this subject, or will you be so good as to state what jmur teaching is ? — The withdrawal of the book will not alter in any way my teaching on this subject. I beg here to observe, that the withdrawal of Badly was in no way connected with the teaching in JMaynooth College — it was altogether owing, I believe, to a dispute in Tuscan}", and to a Professor in the Irish College in I*aris, as it is called, who went to Home, and was questioned on this subject. He told the Pope something or other about Bailly, which, I believe, was confused — he did not intend to deceive the Pope, I am sure, but the Pope thought himself that he was scarcely (amdidly dealt with in the case. This gentleman was asked tlie question, what hook did he lecture from? Bailly was the class-book in the Irish College. lie said, as I have been informed, that he did not use any class-book at all. He meant by that, I believe, that he took his opinions from other books as well as from Bailly, and that he did not confine himself to that airthor. However, the Pope afterwards heard that Bailly was the class-book, and he wrote to the superior of the College, and I have heard that the professor was reprimanded for not having been (piite candid enough. I think this had a great deal to do with putting Bailly on the Index. This is a mere conjecture; but with regard to teaching, as I have said, it makes no change whatever in mine, because neither pure Illtramontanism nor pure Gallicanisni were taught in Maynooth College. I have always taught what I believed to be true, and did not think myself obliged to follow either party, except where the truth led me. With regard to my teaching on the points referred to, I suppose I shall best explain it, by referring to tlie Gallican liberties — I have always taught in conformity with the first article, that the Pope had no direct or indirect temporal power. The second article declares that the decisions of the Council of Constance in the fourth and fifth sessions are in force, that those persons cannot be approved of who confine their operation to the time of schism, or when it is doubtful who is Pope, and that those decisions were confirmed in this sense by the Holy See itself. I do not believe that this article states facts correctly. I do not believe that the Holy See ever confirmed the decrees of the fourth and fifth sessions of the Council of Constance, which declare a general council without the Pope to 1)6 superior to the Pope. Moreover, on referring to the fifth session, it is manifest that it does not regard, as far as it relates to the Pope, defined doctrine at all, it regards the conduct of one of the three Popes then contending for the Papal supremacy. It was declared that John had unlawfully departed from the council ; it was declared that he was bound, under pain of excommunication to fulfil his promise of resigning the papacy, and it was decreed that if he did not return to the council of his own free will, he was to be brouglit back by force. These are mere human things, and cannot belong to faith. And with regard to the fourth session, I do not see how the Gallicans could say tliat it was a defined truth, that the council without the Pope was superior to the Pope. I believe that not to be the fact, and of course I do not teach it. I do not believe that it is defined at all, that the Council without the Pope is superior to the Pope. The name “ Ecumenical Council” has been api)lied either to the I’ope and the Council, or to a mere assembly of bishops without the Pope. ' An assembly of bishops of that kind is supposed to represent the whole Boman Catholic Church. Those bishops must be representatives, either by being elected as such, or by assembling in one place in sufficient numbers to represent the entire episco- pal body. There is no other mode. There is no power in the Church to elect bishops, so as to enable the elected bishops to carry with them what we believe to be the spiritual pre- rogative of each individual bishop. There may be such elections held — for instance, in Ireland, two or three bishops may be sent to represent the wliole body, but no bishop can give to liis brother any of his own prerogatives ; consequently the only way of assembling a general coTincil is, by the bishops meeting in one place in sufficient numbers to repre- sent the entire body. If a majority of the Boman Catliolic bishops assembled together, and it they defined any doctrine, as of faith, undoubtedly that decision, in our opinion, would be the decision of the Church, because the Church would err if a false doctrine regarding faith or morals were proposed as of faith by the majority of the bishops. But there was never such a council, not a tenth or perhaps a fifteenth of the bishops ever assembled together, and how do I know that the council is ecumenical at all, since it consists of so small a minority of the bishops. In the second general council there were only 150 bishops present, and in the third, only 200, all easterns, whilst at a national council of Africa, held in the time of St. Augustine, there were 217 bishops. During the session of a council, very often it is uncertain whether it is ecumenical or not, and it is never certainly known, although it may be thought to be ecumenical, until it has been confirmed by the Pope. V e believe that in teaching faith and morals the privilege of inerrancy has been conferred 5//« October, 1803. 3 . Kcv. G. Crolly, s.T.p. Wlietlicr witlulrawal of Bailly will all’ect witness's oi)iiiions on Gallican que.stions. Teaching of witness as to Gallican liber- ties. Temporal power. Second Gallican article incorrect in fact. Meaning of “ Ecu- menical Council.” 24 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. ^th Oc/ohrr^ 1850. o o» Ilcv. G.Croll)', s.T.p. Tcaohinp: of witness as to Gi’Jlicaa liber- ties. Xecessity of tlio Pope’s eonciuTcnce, in order to ;>ivc the chai-aeter of Ecu- nienieity to a Couneil — -twofold effect of such conciirreiice. Consent of absent Bishops imijlied in the Pope’s contirniation. on the episcopal hotly, hut not on any sni.all fractional ''art of tiiathody whldi may assenihle in the same place. In order to be sure that the decision is unerring, we siiould ho sure that it is tlie decision of the majority of the bishops. If the majority of llie bishops opposed the couneil it would liave erred. id. The accession of a majority at least is therefore necessary; how does tlia.t Itappen ? — That accession always takes place by the ap 2 )i'uval of the Pope, in this way, that, the Catholic bishops who must necessarily he in comimmion with the Pope, as the centre of unity, are anxiously watching the proceedings of this counci], and examining its momen- tous decisions, whicli are never made hastily, but after loug ami careful examination, which occupies often matiy years. Ko decision of the council is mi article of Catholic faith until it has been confirmed by tlie Pope. Ho never conunns a council until after it Las been dissolved; until tlie wliole ]>eriod of its session, which has someti’ues occupied near twenty years, has elapsed ; until ail its decisions liave been maturely considered by the Clmreii ; and if any of those were disapproved of by miy considerable number, limy would certainly reclaim against them, by writing to the head of the Churcli, to state tiiat they did not concur in those opinions. The Pope is, tlien, the medium of attaching the universal consent of the other hishop.s to the decisions of the particular bishops assembled in council, and it is by the confruiation of the Pope tliat the decision of the small number of bi'lioj's in a general council is known to carry with it the consent and the autlunity of the nnijority, and consequently of tlie whole Church. For, supposing the Pope and tlie bishops remain- ing in communion with him, were to dissent from the bishops assembled in council, and only those bishops to define a tbiiig, thn.t Cfinnot be an ecumenical coum 11, for it does not represent the Lloinan Catholic Clnirch, neitlicr the head nor the members ade(iuately; ami, therefore, it is only after confirmation by the Pope, whicli carries with it the legal consent and the tacit ajiprobation of tiie bishops throughout tlie world in communioii witli l;im, that it can be said to represent tlie whole Church. 11. You look upon the consent of Die Pope as implementing, as it were, and comi'leling whatever miglit be deficient in tlie consent of the wliole Church, as I'epresented bv the number of bishops who miffht ho jn'csent at the council itself, or forming the. niaj'oi itv of that council assembled ? — The Pope’s consent is necessary of itself, because I hold that the Church which defines Catholic faitli, is neither the bishops without tlie Poj'C, nor the Pope without the bishoiis, but both — I say that the Pope does two things, that he gives his own confirmation, which is absolutely nccessaiy, and also tliat his confirmation carries wdtli it the approbation of tlie bishops who are in communion with him, who know that his confirmation will render the decisions of the council of Catholic faith, and wlio do not signify their disapprobation of any of its decisions ; they do not reclaim ; the}' do not tell him, as w'onld be their bounden duty, if they disapproved of the decisions of the council that lie should not confirm it, and he therefore really attaches the consent of the other bishops to it by giving it his own. l.j. Y^on assume that tlie Pope would not confirm the council, unless he had tlie consent of the majority? — I do not assume that. Either you suppose that the Pope would not con- firm the council if there was the reclamation of a large iiumber of the bishops against it — the majority of all the bishops in the Pioman Catholic Cliurch — or that tiie Pope would not confirm it unless the consent of the majority were signified to him. ]f you mean the first, that is true ; if a majovity of the bishops reclaimed, the Pope would not confirin it, for it must be wrong; but if you suppose there must be an actual signification of con- sent to the]-*ope, tliat is not the fact. Bat I say tliat the constitution of the cliurch is such, tliat every liisiiop is solemnly bound by bis duty to religion and to God, to watch most anxiously the proceedings of a body whose decisions, if confirmed by the head of tlie church, he must lioivto, as the authentic interjiretatums of the word of God; that he is bound, c.v o‘j:cio, if lie considers the council in error in such momentous affairs, to coimmi- nicate his dissent, without delay, to his neighbouring bisliops. and eitlicr eonjointly with them or alone, to communicate with the Pope ; therefore the Pope, if he has not got tliosc communications, knows that lie is not only acting as the head of the Churcli, but also as the organ of the Church, and of the majority of tlie bishops, or rather indeed of the wliole episcopal body, morally speaking; for a few may neglect their duty, but this is impossible witli regard to the body at large. IG. Ill other words, the tacit acquiescence of the majority implies their consent? — Yes: w'hen the individuals comjiosing it are bound to express their dissent, the rule is, that if you dissent you must exjiress it, if you remain silent, you assent and approve. 17. Supposing the bishops of a particular cliurch. although the minority of the whole church dissented from the conclusion of the council, they would still be bound by the whole council, would they not? — If you suppose that the country is large, and that it contains a great number of bishops, tlie case is pmctically impossible : the thing never happens, because in making a decision of faitli, neither the council nor the Pope would jiroceed to define anytliing if there was a large dissent of bishops, nltbougli they formed only a minority of the whole body — Every decision made in the Council of Trent, for instance, was almost unanimously agreed to. "Whenever there was a large party opposing, no matter whether from the same country or not, the council did not proceed to define that ]ioint as of faith. The majority has the absolute power of defining and of binding the minority, no matter wlietlier it be from one country or not, but in fact it does not act in this manner, but always with the greatest moderation. 18. Is it not sometimes said that such and such a council is not accepted by such and such a church? — As to decrees regarding disciifiine, that is the case; and there is one MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 25 general council — that of Constance — some of whose decrees, tiiose passed in the fourth and Ociuher, 1S5:5. fifth sessions, are not of faith, because some of them regard personal matters, and none of them have been contintied by the i’ope, or accepted as of faith by the universal Church, q Crolly s t p The ecumenicity of the fifth Council of the J jateran is still a matter of dispute. The prac- tical result of tills is, that tlie tilings defined by a council whose ecumenicity is doubtful are Teacliin!? of witness not of Catholic faith. I have mentioned one case, the fourth and fifth sessions of the Council as to Galfican libcr- of Constance, in which the ecumenicity of some of the sessions of a general council, whose other sessions have been confirmed by the Pope, is disputed amongst Catholics, and that the definitions of the fourth and fifth sessions are not of faith. This is the general rule wherever there is a reasonable doubt either about the meaning of the definition, or about the competence of the authority proposing it, the conclusion is always certain that it is not of Catholic faith. There are three things required Tlequisites of a essentially in every definition of faith — first, that the thing be definable, that is, that definition of faitli. it be a revealed truth, and consequently nothing can be defined but what has been revealed before the death of St. John. Individuals may be favoured with a private revelation. God can reveal what he pleases, and when he pleases; but the public revelation for the whole Church was completed at the time of St. John’s death, which took place about A.D. 100. This at once excludes all personal matters and facts which have occurred since the time of the apostles from the definitions of faith. The definition must regard either a revealed truth, or a general moral duty, which concerns the whole Church. That is, it cannot be a moral duty, the truth or falsehood of which depends upon anything that may occur in this country or in France, or anywhere else ; because on these points, though the Church can coerce persons to obedience by laws regarding discipline, she cannot define them to be of faith ; the reason is obvious, for they are mere matters of fact, and not revealed truths. Secondly, the revealed doctrine must, moreover, be proposed by a competent authority before it becomes an article of Catholic faith. This authority, as I have already exiilained, is the Church and the Pope. Thirdly, it must be projiosed to be believed as of faith, because every- thing that is said casually, and not intended to be proposed as of faitli, or arguments adduced in favour of a doctrine, are not articles of faith. The doctrine must be proposed formally by a competent authority as an article of faith. It may be that there exists a doubt as to the competence of the authority by which an article of faith has been proposed, as, forinstance, whether the fifth Lateran council was or was not an ecumenical council ; the ultramontane theologians held that it was ecumenical, and the Gallican theologians denied its ecumenicity, and consequently things said to be defined there are not of faith ; for instance, that the Pope is above a general council, is not of Catholic faith. 1!). Those things are understood to be not of faith, even if an individual Pope should at one moment declare that they were ? — I shall come to that afterwards. 20. Do you teach that there is any distinction between an ecumenical council and a general council ? — No : but I sajAhat the word “ ecumenical” has been used to designate a council without the Pope, and a council acting in concert with him. When I say that an ecumenical council cannot err in faith, I use the word to signify a council with the Pope ; but it is a mere question about words. The name of ecumenical was undoubtedly given to councils that had not the Pope’s confirmation, and which were never regarded as general councils by the Church. The word ecumenical literally signifies universal ; and, therefore, an ecumenical council should be a universal council of all the bishops in the world ; but, though there was, generally, a considerable number of bishops present in those councils which ai’e accounted to have been general, yet there has never been a majority of bishops, or more than a small minority, assembled in any of them. For instance, the early general councils, which all assembled in the east, were almost exclusively attended by eastern bishops. Of 318 bishops who attended the first general council, there were onl}' three from the Western Church. In the second and third general councils there was not a single bishop present from the whole of the Western Church. These councils consisted of a small number of bishops from one part of the Church acting without the other ; and the reason was this : whei’e the controversy arose, there the bishops assembled, and there the council was held ; but when the Pope confirmed these councils afterwards, his act brought with it the consent and approbation of the ivestern bishops, and they then justly called themselves the representatives of the wdiole Church. The third article of the declaration of the French Tliird article of clergy, in 1682, declares that the Pope cannot infringe the liberties of the Gallican Church. Gallican liberties— I think it is not worth while to enter into this, because those liberties do not at present of witness^^'^ opinion exist, even in France. I do not believe that that article was true. The declaration sup- posed that the Gallican Church had a particular form of its own, b}' virtue of its primitive institution, in which was embodied a number of liberties and exemptions from the jurisdic- tion of the Pope in matters of discipline, which the Pope could not change or alter. If the Pope be head of the Church, I think that, for reasonable cause, he could change any article of their discipline. He might not think it prudent to make any change, because they might resist, but I think he had that power. 21. That question is, in fact, now out of date ? — Altogether; for those Gallican Hberties have been swept away by the French themselves. 22. They did notconcern other churches ? — They concerned no other church. As to the fourth article — The substance of the fourth article is, that the Pope has the principal share in deciding controversies in matters of faith, but that his decision is not unreformable, until the consent of the Cliurch is added to it. It is no article of our faith that the Pope, acting without the Church, or even with the whole Church, is infallible, except in solemnly expounding to the whole Church the divine or natural law ; because no person holds that the Pope, speaking as a private doctor, and not solemnly teaching the entire Church, cannot err in e MAYXOOTII COYIMISSION. r>lh Ocloher, 185 :). G.Crolly, s.t.p. Tcacliing of witness as to Gallicaa liber- ties. Pourtli Gallican article — infallibility of the Pope. Xot a question of any practical importance. E.xtract from Father I’crrone to this effect. Instances — the •lansenistic controversy. 'File Council of Pistoia. 'Flic immaculate conception. 2 & both fiiitli and morals, or that he cannot he deceived in matters regardhig facts and pru' deuce. Tlie Ultrainontanes restrict his privilege of inerrancy to the interpretation of Revelation, as I have already explained it when speaking of councils, and to the universal precepts of the natural law, divested of all particular facts and circumstances. Secondly, he must, as they call it, speak e.v cat/ie./ra—tliat is, after consulting his advisers and learned men he must solemnly address himself to the entire Clmrch, because the matter must concern all its members. In all personal matters, in controversies about mere facts/ in decrees of discipline, in his precepts, in issuing rescripts, in giving opinions in reply to questions about which he has been consulted, and in all matters regarding particular churches, the I’ope is not infallible, even when teaching as Rope ; this is now .admitted by all. The question is simply, whether, when teaching the whole Church, when he addresses a decree to the whole Church regarding faith, or tlie universal precepts of morals — as, for instance, that perjury is unlawful — whether, in that case, he can teach the whole Church a falsehood, or teach the whole Church a duty which is wrong and opposed to the law of God or the law of nature. It is not of faith that the Pope, teaching in that way, is infallible ; but, practically, tlie question now is of no effect whatever. There never was such a bugbear as this is. First, it is confined in the way I have mentioned, which, as it excludes all merely human facts, and all local controversies, can never affect any particular countiy, can never disturb its civil supremacy or the allegiance of its subjects, because, in all human controversies of this kind the Pope is both peccable and fallible — liable to sin and to error. Secondly, I have transcribed, on this subject, the words of an ultramontane writer and a Jesuit, Father Perrone. He was a professor of theolog}'' in one of the uni- versities of Rome when he wrote the work which I am about to quote. 'J'he university in. which he taught is called, for distinction sake, the Roman College. Perrone continued to profess theology in Rome until within the last few years, and since the present Pope com- menced his reign. He is old, and I am not sure that he holds his chair, but he is still living. He received a brief from the Pope, complimenting him on this work. 'The words of Perrone about the question as to whether the Pope without the Church is infallible or not, are these — “ Imo et illud adjicimus, quasstionem hanc in concrcto vX aiunt et in praxi vix supervacaneum non videri, etenim cum aliquis error aut hseresis alicubi exurgit illius regionis prajsules in qua Ineresis suboritur, primi ut plurimum sunt qui anna summit adversus profanam novitatem ; ipsi commonefaciunt pontificem de novo errore, ej usque judicium atque definitionem exposcunt. Rom. Pontifex mature quod sibi propositum esf expendit, dinturnamque instituit inquisitionem, ut ea qua par est prudentia ac maturitate in dificillimis gravissimisque negotiis se gerat. Rumores excitantur, scripta him hide pro- deunt, concilia interdum provinciatia aut nationalia etiam ad rem disintiendam coguntur, plures quandoque anni in his dilabuntur antequam sancta sedes definitionem suam emittat uti experientia constat.”* 'rranslation : — “ Nay, we add this, moreover, that this question (of the infallibility of the Pope when speaking ex cathedra) ‘in X\\%.concreto^ as they say, and in practice, can scarcely be thought not to be superfluous. For, when any error or heresy arises anywhere, the jirelates of that country in which the heresy has its origin are generally the first to take up arms against the profane novelty : they inform the Pontiff of the new' error, and demand his judgment and decision. The Roman Pontiff maturely con- siders the matter which has been laid before him, and institutes a long-continued inquiry, that he may conduct himself with that prudence and maturity wdiich is meet in matters of the greatest difficulty and importance. Rumours are spread abroad, writings are put forth on every side; councils, sometimes provincial or national, are also convoked to discuss the matter. Sometimes several years pass away before the Holj' See pronounces its decision, as experience proves.” Perrone then, for the sake of illustration, refers in a note to the Jansenistic controversy, which, after having been, in the first instance, long and angrily discussed in France, was at length referred to Rome, when a new inquiry was insti- tuted. Each of the controverted points were discussed separately and for a long time, either in the presence of the Pope himself, or of Cardinals chosen for this office. The inquiry was continued for tw'o years at Rome, and, indeed, nearly thirteen years elapsed betw'een the publication of the Augustinus of Jansenius — which, from its first appearance, had excited such a ferment in the Church, and the issuing, by Innocent X., of his cele- brated constitution ex occasione, in which he condemned the five famous propositions. He also refers to a more recent example, in the instance of the Council of Pistoia, the discus- sions concerning which were continued for ten years, before its doctrines w'ere condemned by Pius VI., in ihehwW An ctorem Fidci. Since Perrone published his book, another most remark- able instance has occurred. Nine or ten years ago, the question of defining the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin to be an article of Catholic faith began to be very gravely considered at Rome. 'The matter w'as warmly taken up bythepresent Pope, after his accession. How did he proceed ? He wrote to almost eveiy bishop in the Church (indeed I am not aware that even one was omitted), to consult him on the matter; and though the great majority thought that the doctrine might be defined without any imprudence, yet, in deference to some who were of a contrary opinion, the Pope abstained from the definition, and left the matter as it was before. 'This recent proceeding strongly corroborates the instances adduced by Perrone to prove that the Pope never proposes any thing solemnly as an article of faith, to be believed by the whole Church, “ until the entire business has arrived at full matu- ritv.” The Pope, in these decisions, acts at once as the head and as the authorized organ of the Church. He speaks in her name, with her full consent and approbation ; and his decision is at once the decision of the Pope and of the Church — of the head and of the. * Perrone De Locis Theologicis, part i., sect., ii. cap. iv. De Dotibus Primatus. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27 inemboi’s. As to 1113 ' own opinion, I think that the case of the Pope and tlie hisliops hold- ing and professing adverse creeds — that is, that the ni 3 'stical bod}^ of Christ should be torn asunder, the head separated from the nieinbers — is an iinjjossible 113 'pothesis ; that is, if the Poiie be certain — if there be one certain Pope ; for, in times wlien there exists a doubt as to who is the legitimate Pope, there nni}' be tlie gi'eatest possible dissensions between doubtful or pretended Popes and the members of the Church ; but with regard to a separation taking place between a l*ope who is regarded as the legitimate head of the Church and the bod}’ of the bishops, 1 believe that separation to be impossible. Still, sup- posing the Pope (making an impossible hypothesis, in ni}’ opinion) to separate himself from the majoritv of the bishops, and supposing that they’ delined one thing and he another, I would adhere then to the bishops, because the Church would have erred if the majority of the bishops professed a false faith. Then, again, it is said that the Poire might delrne the deposing power. He can define nothing to be of faith that is not revealed ; and I know Uiat this is not revealed, and that the Pope will never propose this as a dogma of faith to be believed by the whole Caitholic Church. And if the Popes did not define this point when they enjoyed a large share of temporal power, is it not foolish to imagine that any one of them will attempt to define it now ? But making the absurd hypothesis that a Pope should define this doctrine, which I know for certain not to be revealed, what would it prove ? Simply’ that the Pope had erred in this matter ; nor would such a definition change myr belief regarding the supreme and independent power of the State in temporal affairs. 23. Are the Commissioners to understand that the infallibility of the Pope is the same substantially’ as the infallibility of the Universal Church ? —It is, in the way it is exercised ; it is the actual concerted action of the Pope and the Church. The whole Church knows the thing, the bishops know whether he is going to define it or not — they know all about it, 'and of course they would not allow the matter to go on so far unless they agreed. 21 . Suppose this case, that the Pope had said, “ I have a majority in the Church,” say upon this point of the Immaculate Conception, and I now propose it as an article of faith, ■that would have been then of faith to the whole, even of the dissentient minority, would it mot ? — Certainly’. 25. You rely’ upon the discretion with which this gi’eat power is exercised ? — I rely’ upon it because it would not be properly exercised unless that discretion were used, and I rely •upon the mode of proceeding adopted by’ the head of the Church in the momentous affair of defining an article of faith. 20. Are the Commissioners to understand that the infallibility of the Pope is not so much personal infallibility as official infallibility ? — The question regards him only’ as head of 'the Church — not at all personally — he is no more personally infallible than he is personally’ impeccable. Bellannine admits* that, as an individual, the Pope might become a scandalous sinner or a heretic, in which case a general council should be assembled to admonish or even to depose him,^ No_ decision of the Pope, even ex cathedra, is of Catholic faith until it has obtained at leaslTthe tacit concurrence of the bishops. '*''57. He is merely infallible when a sentence is annminced in a certain official manner as the head and organ of the Church? — Which sentence is in effect the sentence of the whole Church, and it must regard matters revealed or moral doctrines necessary for salvation, and which concern the whole Church. Popes and councils not only might, but have erred in personal facts, and in matters depending on pi’udence. The Church is only’ infallible in expounding revelation and the universal precepts of the natural law. 28. Even in cases where y’ou do not hold the Pope to be in any way infallible, as in matters of discipline, he has still authority, as long as his decree is unaltered, to imjiose that upon all churches? — Yes ; he has authority to impose decrees of discipline upon all. 29. Even though he is not infallible in that ? — Yes. 80. A particular church might think that the Pope, not being infallible in that, was wi’ong in his decree ; but, meanwhile, that church would be bound to follow it ? — Either you mean, by being w’rong, that that cluirch w’ould think that it w’as ordered to do some- thing against the natural or divine law’, or that it w’ould think that the law of discijiline enacted by the Pope w’as not so expedient or useful as another law. In the first case, undoubtedly’ no one should obey the law so long as he believed it to be contrary’ to the law of God ; but, in the second case, what is done practically’ is this — when the Pope makes a law which he w’ishes to extend to the wdiole Church, he undoubtedly has the xmw’er of so extending it; but if it contradict the natural or the divine law it w’ould not bind at all. If it w’ere only’ inexpedient he could enforce it ; but that, in fact, is seldom or never done by the Pope, because the usual w’ay’ of proceeding is this : — Since it is only a matter of expediency, if there be some very cogent reason w’hy that law should not be extended, as, for instance, the resistance of those who hitherto enjoyed an opposite privilege, or because it would greatly offend the civil power (unless it w’ere in some measure an essential matter), the Pope W’ould not insist on enforcing it in such coi;ntries ; because the evils arising from opposition to it would more than counterbalance the good to be expected from its observance. Take, for instance, the Index Expurgatorius Librorum Prohibitorum. The Pope could force the Index on Catholics in this country ; but then w’e should be put in such a position as he know’s w’ould be productive of more mischief than of good, and that such a pro- "ceeding would, at the same time, give great offence to the civil pow’er. 31. How would other parties be aware, in point of fact, whether he enforced practically this matter, not of essentials, upon churches, w’here the language employed seemed to be general ? — In this way’. It is disputed amongst theologians and canonists whether the * De Conciliis et Ecolesia, lit. i., cap. 8. e2 .')//« (J(li)hrr, IRS.'l. 3. Uev. G. Crolly , s.T. v. Tcacliinp of witness as t(; (iallican liber- ties. Infallibility of the Tope is, as it is exercised, the same substantially as that of the Universal Church. Infallibility not attributable to the Pope personally. Authority of the Pope in matters of discipline. 28 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. October, 1853. 3. Kev. G. CroIIy, s.t.p. Publication of the Pope's decrees. ^lodc of ascertaining the fact of such publication. Instruction of the Pope binding with respect to education. Queen’s Colleges. Pope can make his law binding b}" merely publishing it in Pome, or whether he is bound to publish it through the provinces of the Church — that is a speculative controversy. One party holds that the Pope could make his law binding by publishing it at the Vatican, because that is the centre of Christendom, and that a law once published there would be at once binding on all those to whose knowledge it came throughout the whole Church ; but in consecpience of the inconveniences which would arise in many instances from enforcing matters of mere discipline (for a detinition of faith immediately binds the whole Church), the Pope does not always enforce these laws in every country, and it is known practically whether he insists upon their observance or not, in a particular country, by his insisting or not insisting on their publication in that country. That is, whether he could make a law' binding by iniblishing it only at Pome or not, the practical sign of its being really introduced into a country is, his insisting upon its publication there, and its being actually published; and wlierever the Pope does not insist upon the publication of a law regarding discipline, there that law is understood not to be binding. Again, many points of discipline have been binding in various places ; but, like all other human laws, they can be abrogated by want of usage, and many laws of discipline have been abrogated by want of usage. 32. In w'hat way is it publicl}' knowm to all parties whether a certain decree of the Pope’s is published or not in a certain district, or how would the state be aware what decrees of the Pope have force in Ireland, and what have not ? — By inquiring from the bishops — that ■would be one way. With regard to new publications, the usual course is, that a coj)}' of them is sent to each of the archbishops, or to one for all the rest, and they get a copy for each of their suffragans, and those bishops then, if it be a law which regards the clergy or the laity, publish it in their churches, and make it known in that way. In fact, practi- cally, I do not know that there is any decree emanating from Pome, certainly not in my knowledge, unless it were in the nature of a mere private letter — I mean that there is not any law' or precept which does not appear in the newspapers as soon as it is published and known in this country. Manj’' a time, when precepts or directions have come to this country from Rome, I have seen them in the newspapers before there was any official publication of them, and before I even heard of their existence. 33. Is there any place to which the state or an independent person could refer for the purpose of knowing what is actually in force in Ireland, and w'hat is not ? — To the bishops, of course. 34. Is there any book or register that could be referred to ? — Nothing of the sort, but you would get it in the new'spapers ; if there w'as anything that concerned the State very much, of course the attention of the newspapers would be called to it, and it would be pub- lished in them in such a way, and wdth such comments that the attention of the State W'ould be certainly called to it ; and if the State should consider it of importance it could inquire into it. The inquiry should be made of the bishops, who would be able to teU w'hether it was true or not. 35. If a bull had been promulgated in Ireland would every parish priest be aw'are of the fact ? — If it concerned all the parishes, undoubtedl}' every ])arish priest should be made acquainted w'ith it ; also, if a parish priest were not aw'are of its existence, he could not be bound by it. 30. If he W'as not aw'are of the fact, be bound by it until he knew it. 37. Supposing I w'ent to a parish priest and said, “ Is such a bull promulgated or not ?” and he were to say, “ No, I have no knowledge of it,” would it be fair to presume that it had not been promulgated ? — If a law has been published generall}' in a country, for the whole countiy, it is binding on every one, that is, it really has the force of law'; but those who do not know it cannot obsen'e it. Supposing a parish priest is asked about a certain law', and he says, “ I know nothing about it,” all tliat follow'S is this, that whether the law' be in force in the country generally or not, this man is ignorant of it. Sujiposing you go to a great many parish priests, and they all declare that they know' nothing of such a law, I w'ould at once conclude that no such law was in force, because if it had been published they could not all be ignorant of it, but one individual may be ignorant of a law' as W'ell as of other things. 38. There is no official mode of making everything know'n to every parish priest ? — Decidedly, if the matter concerns his parish, his bishop gets it and sends it to the jiarish priest, w'ho publishes it in his church on Sunday, in presence of the congregation; butil it be a thing concerning the state, or of any public interest, it will undoubtedly very soon find its way to the new'spapers. 39. Is the question of publication so w'ell defined that it cannot be a matter of opinion within a particular church w'hether such and such a decree has force in it or not? — It may be a matter of opinion w'hether such a law has force or not, and the result is this, if there is a well grounded doubt as to whether a certain decree is binding or not, I w'ould say to the legislator, you have not published your law ; 3 'ou should not only make a law, but make me certain that you wish to bind me by it ; if I am doubtful about it I do not feel myself called upon to observe it, because I think it ought to be promulgated, not only doubtfully, but certainlj'. 40. In regard to the education of the laitj', supposing the Pope issues any instruction upon that point would it be considered as binding ? — I should say so. 41. Of course he maj' be W'rong, as it is not a matter of faith ; but as a matter of discipline •would it be considered as binding ? — You are referring to the Queen’s Colleges ? [Chairman. — I confess I had them in my mind w'hen putting these questions.] If the Pope issue an instruction to the laitj' in regard to education, telling them that he, as then* what would be the state of things ? — He would not JIINUTKS OF EVIDEXCK. 29 . splritiuil superior, commands tliem not to freosed to anv other ecclesiastical superior exercising a control inconsistent with these principles. But, I repeat, if the Pope issue any commands on the subject of education, it is the duty' of the subject to obey'. If the Pope had not the control of education he might as well give up ruling the Church altogether. 42. The laity may remonstrate, as thinking he has been misinformed, and misadvised, but meanw'hile the laity as w'ell as tlie ecclesiastics would be considered to be bound ? — They w'ould be obliged to obey if the Pope commanded it, but they' would have a perfect right to remonstrate and to prove, if they could, that the Pope had been misinformed. Pope Benedict XIV., in his famous w'ork “ I)e Synodo Dioecesana,” Lib. IX. cap. 8, No. 2 and 3, says, that not only' in particular rescripts, in which nothing is more easy' than that the Pope may' be deceived, but also that in general laws of discipline, with the exception of those regarding faith, religious rites, ceremonies, sacraments, and the manner of life of the clergy', it is by' all means the duty' of a bishop to remonstrate with the Holy' See against a law w'hich he may think even inopportune for his diocese ; because, he say's, the legislator does not know' all the circumstances of the country, and he gives instances in which Popes either did not press the law in tiiose places in which it w'as objected to, or greatly moderated its rigour, and the punishment indicted on its transgressors.* 43. Will you take the case of the Queen’s Colleges; has not the Pope decided that they are dangerous to faith and morals, and is there not an order of suspension against any' priest having official connexion w'ith them ? — The decision as regards the laity is, that those colleges are giievously and intrinsically' dangerous to faith and morals, and the laity are exhorted not to frequent them ; but there is no law' as far as they' are concerned. The Pope has sanctioned a law preventing priests from having official connexion w'ith them But a priest is more immediately' imder the Po^ie than the laity' — he is one of his officers ; * Tlie words of the Pope, with rey.ard to rescripts which regard particular places, persons, or circumstances, are — “Non hie agimus de peculiaribus rescriptis aut mandatis in quorum concessione sive expeditione nihil lacilius est, quam ut aliquando pontifices decipiantur, vel fiilsa rerum enarratione vel ocultatione alicujus veritatis, quam si notam habuissent, nuiiquam ea concessissent aut mandassent qu* alicujus vitii arguuntur. Verum in hisce casibus, quidquid ab eis per subreptionem aut per obreptionem impetratum est, ipsi baud inviti .abrogant, uti apparet ex c. Super iitteris, de Kescriptis : nec ullo modo Eegre ferunt, si executores quibus mandatum com- missum est, executionem suspendant atque iterum accuratas rei mittant notitias quibus certiorem reddant Ponti- ficem cur illius mandantum non duxerint exequendum.” And concerning general laws of discipline, he says — “ Verum nonnunquam experientia demonstrat aliquod ex hujusmodi generalibus statutis, licet plerisque provin- ens ac diaeresibus utile atque proficuum, alicui tamen provincioe aut dioecesi opportunum non esse : id quod legis- tatori compertuni non erat, cum ipse peculiares omnes locuorum res atque rationes perspectas habere nequeat ; quemadmodum fatetur Pontifex in cap. 1 de Constitutionibus, in 6. In his itaque rerum circumst.antiis episcopus mtelligens Apostolicaj Sedis legem in dimeesi sua noxium .aliquem effectum perducere posse, non modo sua3 Romano Pontifici rationes repraesentare non prohibetur, quin potius ad id omnino tenetur.” 5//i Octuher, ISod, 3 . llcv.G. Crolly, s.t.I’. Kfl'cct of decree of tlie I’ojie as to cdu- calion — obedience ’ due to him. Control of the Pope over education necessary for his government of the Church. Decision of the Pope as to the Queen s Colleges. 30 MAYjS'OOTII commission. bth Octohrr^ 185o. 3. Ivcv. G. Crolly, s.t.p. Queen’s Colleges. Clergy oommaivlcd, laity exhorted, to abstain from them. Such exhortation does not amount to a law. Etfect of withdrawal of Bailly on theolo- gical teacliing in Jlaynooth. aiul the Pope probably thought that it would be in vain to exhort the laity not to frequent the colleges if priests were allowed to hold office in them. He has consequently sanctioned a law proliibiting all priests, under pain of suspension, from having any comiexion officially with the Queen’s Colleges. This command every priest is bound to obey. 'I’he Church has always exercised a specisd control over the conduct of ecclesiastics, and has thought herself justified in preventing them from intermeddling too much even in ordinary temporal affairs. With regard to the laity, the Pope says that these colleges are dangerous to faith and morals, and he advises and exhorts them not to frequent them; but he does not say to every individual layman, “ You cannot go to these colleges without committing sin.” There is no law of tlie Church to prevent him from attending them. He is simply to be guided by the principles I have laid down regarding dangerous things. Now, in the case of an individual layman, the danger to faith and morals, in his regard, nia}' be less in these colleges than in any other place in these countries to which he can go for a university education. Take the instance of a student whose parents are living in Cork, who may be devout Catholics, and who would therefore watch over the religious education of their cliild with more anxious and alfectionate solicitude than any other persons in the world ; they woidd also be able to exercise a more wholesome control, and a more abiding influence in guiding his reason, and in impressing religion on his tender mind, than could be done by any strangers to his lieart and home. It may be that he is destined for one of the liberal pro- fessions, for which a University education is necessary, and his only choice will be between the Queen’s College at home and a distant university, the intrinsic dangers of which are as great, or greater, and where he is no longer guarded by a i)arent’s love. It ■nfill scarcely be affii’ined that Roman Catholics cannot embrace a liberal profession without sin, and I am quite certain that, in the case I have mentioned, the Catholic student will act more in accordance with the law of God, and with the wishes of the Church, by remaining with his parents, and obtaining education at home, than by seeking it in a distant, and, perhaps, more dangerous university. There is no law of the Church or of the Pope forbidding a young man to act in this manner, or declaring such action to be sinful ; and I am quite sure that if any inferior authority made such a law, it would not be approved of by the court of Rome, which has taken care to admonish the bishops, to observe the rules of “ equity and benignity in carrjfing out the rescripts of the Holy See regardmg the Queen’s Colleges.” 44. The Pope might, if he had pleased to have given a different form to his opinions, have inhibited the laity ? — There might be a system of education which the Pope could, and would absolutely prohibit — that is (^uite clear; and if such a system were inaugurated, I have no doubt he would command all Catholics to avoid it under pain of sin. But as to the present system, the Pope has not thought it his duty to make a law preventing Roman Catholics from availing themselves of it under pain of sin. The acts of the Holy See have been in perfect conformity with the iirinciples which I have laid down. It is one thing to exhort, another to legislate. God himself has exhorted us to observe the Evangelical counsels, but he has not commanded us to do so. The Church earnestly exhorts her children to receive the sacraments frequently during the year, but she has not made this a precept. Suarez teaches in his famous treatise on laws (Ifib. i., cap. !)), that a human l^recept, in order to be binding, must not only be just, but also that it must not be too onerous — that the legislator must not only consider the perfection of his law, but that he must also look to human frailty, and neither impose too great or unnecessary burdens. Benedict XIV., in the work already quoted, lays down the same principle in many places, and especially Lib. xi. cap. 14, where he says that a law binding seculars to hear Mass and the word of God in their parish church on Sundays and holidays, was rescinded on account of its too gi’eat severity. This wise and equitable course has been followed by the Holy See, in the case of education in Ireland. It has pointed ont the danger, it has exhorted the faithful to avoid it, but it has not burdened the conscience by any new precepts. 45. If the Pope interfere, must he interfere through the immediate spiritual superior — the bishop for instance — under wliose spiritual superintendence the person is ? — That is tlie usual form ; but there is nothing to prohibit the Pope from interfering directly with any individual layman. 46. Unless the bishop of the diocese has spoken on the i)oint of a rescript of the Pope, supposing it a general rescript, it would not be of effect in the diocese ? — The bishop should be the organ, but the Pope could command the bishop to receive and ^mblish it; and if he did not do so, he could order some one else to publish it. 47. If the bishop refused to do it, what wovdd be the consequence ? — He could force him by spiritual means. 48. Will you state to the Commissioners -whether the withdrawal of Bailly, as a class- book, from Maynooth, and the substitution of another author, will make any change in the teaching of your class of theology ? — None whatever. 49. AVhat is the value of a class-book more than any other book that is consulted for the lectm’es ; is the class-book anj" particular indication of the doctrine to be taught ?— Whilst Baill}' was used, the class-book served to mark the subject of the lectures. A number of pages in his theology w-ere, at the end of each lecture, appointed for the succeeding lecture. The professor lectured upon the subjects contained in those pages, and gave his own opinion upon them; he did not feel himself obliged to follow the opinions of the class-book. Fre- quentl 3 Glie students did not even read the class-book at all, because thej" w-ere aware of the subject, and had learned from report that it did not treat it well, or that the imofessor would reject its opinions. 50. What is the doctrine taught by you in Maynooth on the subject of the authority of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 31 the Pope or the Clnirch in matters spiritunl or temporal ; and how do yon draw the distinc- tion hetween things spiritual and things tem])oral ? — 1 beg to hand in the following paper in reply to this (piestion : — I teach that there have been two societies instituted by God amongst men — the one temporal, the other spiritual — because “ there is no power but from God.” The natui'e of each of these powers is completely distinct from the other, and their means and end totally dilferent. Each has its prescribed limits, which it may not lawfully trangress. The temporal power extends to and is bounded by temporal things, which it ordains for the good of civil society. The spiritual power extends to and is bounded by spiritual things, •which it ordains for the salvation of the soul. Neither power can lawfull}^ transgress the limits prescribed to it by God, nor invade the domain of the other. Each power is, there- fore, supreme and independent in its own order. Some persons taught, many centuries ago— but no person since the days of Bellarmine— that the Pope possessed, ral matters, and distinction between' tilings sjiiritual .and tilings tcinjioral. Direet temporal power — this ojiinion universally aban- doned. Indireet temporal ! power. ■* This latter opinion ' equ.ally untrue in the opinion of witness. Teaching of witness to that effect. Supreme and inde- pendent power of the Church in spiritual matters. Distinction between things spiritual and things temporal. 32 MAY^s^OOTH COMMISSION. bill Oclolicr, 1853. Eev. G. Crolly, s.t.p. Teaching of witness as to tlie respective provinces of tlie spiritual and tem- I>oral powers. Tlie Church can neither confer nor take away temporal power. Power of the Church the same as in the first centuries. A spiritual thing is that which directly and immediately regards the good, not of the body, but of the soul, and which of its own nature is directly ordained for the attainment of salvation — such as prayer, fasting, alms-deeds, Ac. 1 know at once, from the nature of these things, that they are ordained for the good of the soul, and not of the body. I know, on the contrary, that the law which enacts that the goods of the wife shall upon marriage become the property of the husband, and all such laws directly and immediately regard the good of the body, because their object is to regulate temiioral proiierty. They, therefore, regard purely temporal things. Thus from their very nature it is often easy to distinguish between matters temporal and matters spiritual. But, moreover, I have the following plain principles to guide me in drawing the line ol distinction between spiiitual and temporal things : — 1. The state possesses supreme independent power in aU civil affairs — as supreme and independent as when the Gospel w'as first promulgated. II. The Church, by virtue of her divine institution, has neither more nor less power now than she had dming the first three centuries. III. The sanction by which the Church enforces her commands is purel}' spiritual, whilst the penalties inflicted by the state are of a purely temj)oral nature. By the first of these principles I know that the Church can neither confer nor take away civil power in any country in the world. With the individuals who exercise that power, if they be her subjects, she can interfere in spiritual matters, but not b}' depriving them of their power, but simply by taking from them, if thej' pertinaciously resist her laws, those spiritual goods the administration of which alone has been intrusted to her by Clnist. He commanded his follow’ers to render unto C«sar the things that are Ca'sar’s ; the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul, preached the necessit}’ of obedience to the civil ruler, for conscience sake; and after the emperors had embraced Christianitj', the Church, far from thinking that she could depose them, tauglit, on the contrary, that she was bound to submit to and to obey them even when, as sometines happened, tliey opposed and persecuted her. And, indeed, it is sufilciently absurd to suppose that our Lord could have so constituted His Church that a Christian prince could not enter it witliout sacrificing his temporal pre-eminence. The truth is, thatwhen Constantine embraced Christianity he did not lose one atom of his tem- poral powder over the Pope, the bishops, or the Church. He submitted his person to the Church, not his imperial dignity. And as he lost no temporal, so neither did he gain any spiritual power by entering tlie Church. She did not receive her power from kings, but from Christ, and she could not give it to them. II. The second principle, that the Church has neither more nor less power now than she had during the first three centuries of her existence, follows from what I have just said — that she neither lost nor gained any power by the reception of princes into her communion. She is a divinely constituted society, and must have received all her power from Christ. Let us, therefore, examine the power which the jiastors of the Church exercised under jiagan princes. 1 . They fearlessly taught the truths of religion and the morality of the Gospel in spite of, and in opposition to, temporal rulers. They decided controversies which arose on those subjects, constantly exhorting and commanding the faithful to hold by the truth, and to reject falsehood. The}' required that those whom they associated wiih themselves in preaching the Gospel should “be able to exhort in sound doctrine, and to convince gainsayers.” The authority, therefore, of teaching the Gospel and of deciding controversies regarding faith and morals is essential to the Church. She has received it directly from Christ, and she shall retain it until the end of the world. 2. The apostles and other bishops, as is manifest from St. Paul’s Epistles, and from the Acts of the Apostles, appointed the miirisiers who were to preach the Gospel, celebrate the divine mysteries, administer the sacraments, Ac. They also assembled the faithful to celebrate the mysteries of religion, and to adore and glorify God in common ; consequently this power is also essential to the Church. 8. They made laws for the internal government of the Church. “ It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us,” write the apostles and ancients, Actsxv., “ to lay no farther burden on you than these necessary things, that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication.” To abstain from things strangled and from blood was certaiidy not a divine precept, and the language of the apostles shows that they believed themselves to have power to impose farther hardens if they had thought proi)er. But it cvould be useless to waste time in discussing this point, for every one knows that the Church did make a great many laws during the first three centuries. These laws certainly did not regard temporal but spiritual matters, with the exception of those which regulated the ofi'erings of the faithful and the other temjioral property of the Church. 4. There is no regular liturgy in the New Testament, and every Christian society has found it necessary to observe some forms not contained in Scripture in the celebration of public worshiji. Abuses occurred in the administration of the Eucharist, of which St. Paul speaks in his First Epistle to the Corinthians. In consequence of these, it is generally supposed that the time for celebrating the I.ord’s Supper was changed from the evening to the moming; and, indeed, the apostle himself intimates that he w'ould make some change in the matter, for he says ; — “ The rest I will set in order when I come.” Paley justly thinks, that the precept of resting from work on Sunday is of human institution. The apostles also assigned particular districts to partierdar j^ersons for preaching the Gospel. “For this cause,” says St. Paul to Titus, 1, 5, “ I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.” Laws would necessarily be made to regulate the maimer of life and MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 33 conduct of the clerp;y, and, in fact, varlons qualifications for the aspirant to tlic Cliristian ministrv are i)ointcd out in St. Faul’s Epistles. 'J'lie Church afterwards made laws re(|niriiig that no one should he ordained wlio was not poss(;sscd of these. Laws for their spiritual sanctification — sucli, for instance, as that whicli enjoins fastin" in Lent, and wliicli, accord- ing to St. .\ngustine, is of apostolic institution — were iniposcil on the laity, d'he ('lunch also repealed her laws when she judged this to he expedient, even when they had been enacted hy the apostles, as is manifest from the a])ostolic ])rece])t of abstaining from blood and from things strangled being no longer obligatory. All these laws regard either the preservation of the Church herself, the decent performance of her public offices, or the spiritual sanctification other children. III. It would be a contradiction in terms to talk of a iiowcr without a sanction. As the Church can make laws and impose ])recepts regarding spiritual matters, she must also be able to fortify them by a spiritual sanction, such as deprivation with regard to the clergy, and exclusion from her communion with regard to the laity. As the divine and natural laws often regard temporal things, and as the observance of these laws immediately and directly conduces to the life, and their violation to the death of the soul, the Church can interpret these laws, and command her children to fulfil them. Lut she can onl}' enforce the observance of these laws by spiritual penalties. 'J’hus St. Paul excommunicated the incestuous Corinthian — i Cor. v. The State can also embody in its code things prohibited by natural and divine positive law — as perjury, theft, murder; but it can enforce ])recepts of natural and divine law, not because their observance is essential to the sanctification of the soul, but because it is necessary to the preservation of life and property, and to tbe well- being of society. Thus a thing prohibited by the divine huv may be also prohibited by the civil and ecclesiastical laws, but under totally dilferent respects, and with a totally ditfei'ent sanction. I can often distinguish these different powers by the different nature of their objects, without any reference whatever to the difference of the sanction. Thus I know that all precepts which regard ]nnely intenial actions are purely divine — tliat the hnv which transfers the property of the w'ife to the husband is ]>ure!y civil, and that the precept of fasting in lient is purely ecclesiastical. But the most universal and obvious distinction be- tween the different powers to which men are subject is to be found in the difference of their sanctions. The divine law’ is sanctioned by the hope of rewards and the fear of punishments in a future life ; the civil law by pains and penalties in this life ; and the laws and precepts of the C'hurch by depriving those w ho contumaciously resist her authority of those spiritual goods, the administration of which has been intrusted to her by desus Christ. To explain this, it is necessary to observe that there are certain external actions which in different ways produce spiritual effects : such are the sacrifice of the mass, the administration and receiving of the sacraments, the offices of the Church, Ac. The Church can only sanction her laws by de]>riving the obstinate and unre])entant transgressor of one or of all these advantages. This punishment is purely si)iritual. Nor can the Church deprive any one of purely internal gifts. She cannot de])rive him of the friendship of God, of faith, of hope, of charity, or of divine grace. As the jmnishments of the State regard the body, they are as efficaciously inflicted on the innocent as on the guilty. Lut the Church can oidv punish those who are really guilty ; she may, through error, deprive of her external communion a person not really guilty of giievous sin, and, to avoid scandal, he may sometimes be obliged to act as if he were really and justly deprived of it; but in I’eality a spiritual punisliment inflicted without a just cause is perfectly null and inefficacious. I know', therefore, that all those things are spiritual : — i. Which of their own nature ai'e immediately ordained for the salvation of the soul ; and ir. Concerning which the Church can legislate, by virtue of the power conferred upon her by Christ, m. That the Church can interpret the divine law', and can enforce the due observance of such of its precepts as she thinks necessary by inflicting spiritual punishments on such other subjects as obsti- nately persist in violating thetn. iv. That it is her dut}' to teach and to enforce due obedience to the civil pow'er. v. 1 have show'n that the ])OW'er of the State is supreme in temporal matters — that the Church has not received from Christ any direct or indirect temporal power — that she has received no divine commission to depose princes, to make, to unmake, or to interpret civil law's. Ly the aid of these principles, I am convinced that the line of distinction betw'een things s[)iritual and things temporal may be drawn rvith sufficient accuracy for all practical purposes, and so as to prevent either power from interfering, through ignorance, in the exclusive domain of the other. But, though the spiritual and temporal powers be thus essentially diotinct from each other, each being supreme and independent in its own order, though they can exist in a state of com])lete separation, without any concert or mutual support, yet there can be no doubt that when a just alliance is formed betw'een them, neither invading the rights of the other, their united action confers great benefits on the State and on the Church, d’hey are not by nature opposed to each other : their objects, ends, and means are different, not contrary, and their legitimate connexion results in great advantages to both. 51. Have you any further observations to make as to the difference betw'een matters spiritual, and matters temporal ? — When I am asked whether I have any further observa- tions to make betiveen matters spiritual and matters temporal, the question may either mean the distinction which I draw between things that are ordained immediately and directly for the salvation of the soul, and things that are ordained directly and immediately for the protection of the body ; or it may mean the distinction betw'een eccle- siastical and civil matters. As to this latter distinction, it is often confounded with the former, but this is improper. When I am asked the distinction betw'een things spiritual and OvU>he)\ 3. licv.G. ('roily, s.r.i-. 'J'('iK'liin^ temporal power, but by right of ])OSsession and of owmership. Therefore the ecclesiastical law includes not only the spiritual law which I have mentioned, but also the regulations which the Church, in common with all communities, has necessarily made, with regard to the management and disposal of her own property ; but she has not supreme power over it; that property is subject to the lawful action of the State, like any other. I do not, however, in the least believe the doctrme, that the State has the dominion of all property in the territories subject to it; the State can enact just laws for the regula- tion and transmission of propeify, and can impose such burdens upon it as shall be ade- quate to the necessities of the public service. Subject to those laws, each individual and society has the dominion of its owm property. The Church having temporal i>roperty, must necessaril}^ regulate its distribution and application to its proper objects, and hence a considerable portion of the ecclesiastical law is necessaril}" devoted to this matter. 54. Then the distinction between spiritual and temporal is a distinction fomided upon the nature of the subject matter ? — Founded upon the nature of the Church’s constitution, .and upon the nature of the means which have been ordained for the perpetuation of the Church ; for the guidance of her members in spiritual actions, such as the saci’aments, fast- ing, and prayer, and for their sanctification. 55. The difference between ecclesiastical and spiritual is that the ecclesiastical deals with the property, and the spiritual with the soul ? — The ecclesiastical law embraces both the spiritual law and the law regulating property. 50. You ai'e aware that there are many transactions of a civil natm’e which have a spiritual effect more or less ? — Many. 57. And that manj’ transactions therefore, from their nature, must rather lie dubiously between the jurisdiction of the Church and of the civil power ? — In point of fact, I think the distinction exists clearly: that individuals maj' not be well able to point it out, I admit. 58. There are certain cases, for instance, the neglect of a religious duty, over which the Church would have an undisputed control ? — Certainly. 59. But there are certain other acts wdiich would have more or less an effect upon the welfare of the Church, or upon the moral condition of the State, which are in their nature temporal, but which, bj' reason of their results, may be considered as bordering upon the spiritual. In that case how would you draw the line ? Would jmu conceive the Church to have an absolute control over such acts ?— I draw the line in this waj' — I say that those subjects are spiritiial, about which the Church can make laws, excepting her own temporal j)i’operty, which she can also regulate. I say, generally, that those things are spiritual which tend directly to the sanctification of the soul, and also those upon which the Church can make laws as I stated in the beginning. The Church can interpret the natural and divine laws, and enforce the observance of their precepts ; she can, moreover, make laws for her own internal administration, and for the sanctification of her members; and, therefore, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 35 that is spiritual uiion which the Church can legislate. That upon whidi she cannot legis- late, or which does not tend ininiediatel}’' and directly to the sanctification of the soul, is not, of its own nature, spiritual ; but 1 say, that beyond that which is spiritual of its own nature, the Church has an undoubted right of teaching the divine law, even when it has temporal things for its object, and of looking to the conduct of her members in regard to it, and of inflicting punishments upon them — that is her own spiritual ])unishments, as St. Paul punished the incestuous Coriiitliian. Therefore, when it is said that tlie Pope has no tempoi'al power, I mean that he can make no temporal law, can depose no sovereign, . or exercise temporal jurisdiction any where except in his own states ; but, at the same time he can teach his spiritual subjects, no matttir who may be their temjioral sovereign, the Catholic doctrine, regarding faith and morals — that being always his essential right ; he can teach them also what the natural or divine law declares to be right or wrong, even when it has temporal matters for its object. For instance, he can teach the decalogue, and a large portion of the decalogue is occupied with temporal matters. Thus, he can teach us that we must not steal our neighbour's property, which is a temporal matter; but he cannot make a civil law about property, as, for instance, that upon marriage the property of the wife shall become the property of the husband. This can only be done by the temporal legislator. But the Po})e can command the observance of the natural, divine, and of all just human laws, even when they are conversant about temporal things. Because, to teach the duty of rendering “ honour to whom honour, and tribute to whom tribute is due,” is spiritual teaching ; and the fulfilment of those duties, if performed in a proiier spirit, tends to the sanctification of the soul. GO. Because, for instance, the sway of one sovereign over a particular country Avould be advantageous for the interests of religion, and, therefore, of morals — he could not consider tliat as a spiritual act, and therefore, exercise any control over such a result ? — No. Gl. B}' the same reasoning, could a priest exercise any control over the action of an elector, who constitutes part of the sovereign power of the state in which he lives ? — With regard to that question, I say first, from the explanation I have already given, that the act of voting at an election is inirely a temporal action, and I prove it in both the ways I have pointed out. First of all, the Tope can make no law about it : he can make no law regulating the mode of voting at elections, nor can the Church either, besides it does not tend directly to the salvation of any one’s soul to vote at an election ; but in its consequences it tends to the contrary very often. Therefore, if that be not a temporal action, I would like to know what is. It is not enough to make an action spiritual that we must answer for it to God, because, for every action of a man’s life he is answerable to God. The act of voting is a purely temporal action, ordained immediately, and of its own nature, for the good of the bod}", and not immediately ordained for the good of the soul. G2. Therefore, you hold that, though it would be perfectly open to a priest to give advice to an elector in the exercise of his franchise, as in the case of any other temporal transaction in which he was engaged, he woixld not be justified in considering it as an act in which he was entitled to impose it as a matter of religious obedience ? — He could not impose it as a matter of religious obedience at all. C3. Therefore he could not make the exercise of the franchise, one way or the other, a matter of more or less sin, or withhold the sacrament in consequence ? — I shall explain that. With regard to voting, I shall first state the principle laid down by all ethical writers, Protestant and Catholic, that there are certain actions which are indiflerent — that is, actions which are not prescribed or prohibited either by divine or natural law, or by any just human law. Those actions they call indifferent. The action of the man who performs these may be good or bad, but they are, of their own nature — and, as moralists speak — objectively indifi’erent actions. Then, I may foresee that an indilferent action, or even a good action, will be used for an evil i)urpose, through the malice of somebody else. I may owe a man money, and I may know, that if I give him the money, he will go to a tavern and get drunk; yet this will not excuse me from paying him the money sometime or other ; and if I should continually refuse, he will force me by law to pay him. I give him his money, still I foresee that there will come evil out of this action, which is good in itself, for it is good to pay my just debts. There are so many other cases of this kind that I need not enter into them ; but the general principle is this, that when my own action is not bad, and when I do not immediately co-operate with another in a bad action, when I only fear or foresee that another will abuse the power wdiich I help to confer upon him, I am not therefore always bound to abstain from that action. I make this observation, and I think it most important, because, in talking of voting at elections, it is commonly laid down as a first principle, that every man is bound in conscience, and before God, to make up his mind between any two men who may start as candidates at an election, and that the divine law obliges him, after having made up his mind that one of them is more eligible than the other, to brave all consequences, however calamitous to himself, and probably also to his family, to vote for that particular man. Now, that is so utterly false, so completely siibver- sive of all ethical doctrine, that I cannot conceive how any person of the least intelligence can believe it. The moral principle is this : I can never do anything which is evil in its own nature, I cannot lie, blaspheme, calumniate, steal, or murder, nor co-operate with another in committing those crimes, on any account whatever ; moreover, when my own action is not bad, and I foresee that another will take advantage of it to commit sin, I cannot do that action w"ithout a sufficient reason, but I can do it if such reason exist. A man puts a pistol to my head and demands my money. It may be my master’s money, and not my own, or I may know' that if I give it to him he will immediately go to /2 T)th Orlohcr, 1853. Rev. G. Crolly.s.T.r. Control over Electors. Voting at elections a purely temporal act. ]\Toral principles re- gulating exercise of right of voting. 3G MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. r)//i Oclohrr, 1n5o. Ivov. G. Crolly,s.T.p. Moral principles re- jrulatiii" exercise of riglit of voting. ’I'o coerce a voter to vote for a particular candiilate, by de- nouncing bis refusal as a sin, or threaten- ing to withhold the sacraments, is an abuse of power on tlie part of the indests. Expression of the I’ope’s disapproba- tion of the part taken by some of the clergy in elections. a house of ill-fame ; am I bound to forfeit my life in such a case as that ? A judge admi- nisters ail oath, although he foresees that some of those who take it will commit iierjury. A man thretitens to shoot me unless I deliver up his sword, which I know he is about to use against his enemy, and I give it to him. Not only the Mulla Cuai®, hut various passages of the canon law which are cited by Benedict XIV. (De Synodo Bioccesana, lib. xiii., cap. ‘-20, No. 2), anathematize those who supply the Turks with arms, or in any way assist them in their wars against Christians; and yet the same leanied Pope (Ibid, No. 5) holds tliat it is an inditferent action to supply the Turks with arms, whicli may, therefore, he justified by necessity ; and (No. (i) that the Christian captives v.ho during a naval battle rowed the galleys of the Turkish lleet against those of the Christians were free i'rom all blame. The sullicienc_y of the reason, in each particular case, depends upon the proximity and amount of my co-operation, and on the heinousness of the sin which I foresee. This is not the doctrine of weighing interest against interest, hut the doctrine of weigh- ing one moral duty against another, because I have got from tvod the perfect right and duty to preserve my life. Perhaps I have a family to sniiport : and am I, therefore, to risk my life because another person will rob me of money that does not belong to me ? Now, to ap[)ly this principle, the evil to be feared is bad legislation. In our elections for members of iiarliament, it is obvious that the degree in which any individual elector contributes to bad legislation is very small. If he think that one candidate will promote the public good better than another, and he has no sufficient reason either to abstain from voting or to vote for the opposing candidate, he should certainly vote for the person whom he believes to be the best (pialified. But, in fact, in a great many cases — and especially where the excitement is greatest, and where the man who Inis the courage to brave popular clamour, and to vote according to the dictates of his own conscience, will most surely be branded as a traitor to his country — one candidate is just as good as another. The electors surely cannot be blind enough not to see that men on whose elec- tion they were assured that the salvation of the country depended — whom they were assured that they were bound to support by their votes, at all risks to themselves and tlieir fami- lies — have taken the very first place they could get, leaving the people and the country to get on as well as they can without them. I know there are many exceptions ; but every man must see that an election is a scramble for places, generally speaking, on the part of the members, as it is for power between the great parties in the state. I say, there- fore, from the principle I have laid down, that if a man have no sufiicient reason not to give his vote — if he really think that there is one candidate wlio will do a great deal of good, he ought to give his vote to him. But voting at an election for a member of par- liament, though circumstances may make it a dut}', is one of those things wliich are indif- ferent in themselves. The action of voting at all, or of voting for this or that candidate, is not enjoined by any specific law. An action objectively indifferent does not remain indifferent when performed, but becomes good or bad. according to circumstances. Walking is an action objectively iiidilierent ; but it is good when an individual walks to a house to console the afflicted; bad, when he seeks evil companjx It may be the duty of an elector either to vote at an election or to abstainfrom voting, or to vote for or against a particular candidate. None of these actions being evil of their own nature, he can select any of them, according to the circumstances in which he is placed. lie has to consider what evil will result to the community, on the one side, and to himself or his family, on the other ; because a man sins most grievously by bringing desolation on his own famil}'. To provide for his family is a duty both of the natural and divine law. “ He,” exclaims St. I'aul, ” who hath not a care of his own, and especially of those of his own house, hath denied the faitli, and is worse than an infidel.” I admit that there might be a case in which a person should make a very considerable sacrifice ; but, ordinarily speaking, I do not see why an elector should make any great sacrifice. I think it not only no sin for an elector not to incur any serious risk of injuring himself or his family at an election, but that nothing but ignorance can excuse the person from committing a sin — and often a grievous sin — who tells a iioor man that he ought to ruin himself by voting against his landlord. I do not say that the landlord is justified in punishing him ; quite the contrary. lie is as much to be blamed, on one hand, as the priest or jiarson is, on the other. The priest who forces him to vote for a particular candidate, b}^ telling him, as his spiritual superior, that if he does not so vote he will sin, or by threatening to refuse him the sacraments, grossly abuses his power. Voting at an election is a purely temporal action, on which every layman has just as good a right to make up his mind as the priest — for it is only as a layman that he can interfere in such matters at all. As a priest it is his duty to teach his parishioners to observe the decalogue, to be loyal subjects of the church in spiritual, and of the state in temporal matters. lie does not act as Christ’s minister, or by His aiithoritj’, when he identifies himself with a mob at an election. The layman is not, therefore, bound to obey the priest, under pain of sin ; he is simply bound to vote according to the dictates of his own conscience, considering the circumstances in which he i§ placed ; and if a bishop make it a reserved case not to vote in a particular way, or a iiriest refuse the sacrament for the same reason, the acts of both are utterly invalid. Any authorized priest could administer the sacraments, and absolve the elector who votes according to the dictates of his own conscience — not from the reserved sin of voting ivrouff, as it is called, for that is no sin at all, in the case I have stated — but from his real sins and offences, in spite of these prohibitions and reservations. Tliis is the Catholic doctrine ; and I ask those who hold the contrary to refer the matter to Eome, and to abide by the decision of the Holy See. Indeed I know that the Pope has expressed strong disapprobation of the part which some priests have taken in elections ; and I recently read .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 37 sniiio fu'iT orations dclivcreil by ])vic!-ts, wliicli were so far from being expositions of the divine law, tliat some propositions iidvanced in tliem have been anathematized by the Council of Trent. (■) I. Even thonqh its effects might be indirectly for the advancement of the Chnrcl), still the exercise of the franchise, being atempoi'al act in its original nature, it would be one in which the [trie^^t could not make it a sin to act one way oi' the other ? — Yes, it is a purely tem])oral matter. A man may sin by voting against liis own conscience, or ]ierhaps the priest may make him sin in this way : — he may convince liim that he will commit a griev- ous sin by voting one way or the other, which the ])iiest shouhl not do. J say more : you may trace the same principle through every gradation, from the simplest curate to the head of the Church. A bishop has lu) right to command his priests, as their spiritual superior, to inter- fere in an election. 1 think it would be for the good of the Church that there should be no such interference. It is an abuse of s})iritual power when it is ever used for this puv])ose. 'I’he bisho]), therefore, has no right, and the priest is not bound to obey him, when he commands him to interfere in purely teni])oral matters. In the same way, if the Pope commanded the bishop, by virtue of his spiritual authority, to use his s])iritual power in an election, that command would be invalid. Am I, because I believe in the Cope’s spiritual ])ower, to believe in the optimism of clerical government in temporal affairs, or in the perfection of the government of the states of the Church ? The Pope had the same spiritual ]>ower, the same pre-eminency, from Christ, before he became a temporal soveriegn, as he has since he hecanie a temporal sovereign ; and if the Pope may govern badly in his own states, if he be not divinely directed, as head of the Church, in his own temporal government, how should I think that it was a part of his othce to teach the governments of other countries? 1)5. The spirit of your observations has governed your teaching in Maynooth ? — Yes. dC). Is the application of these general principles to the priesthood when they go out into their parishes considered a part of tlie duty of the professors of Maynooth ? — I can- not answer that generally for the professors, but I can say for myself, that I liave never allowed students to leave me without impressing upon them the necessity of great mode- ration in politics, and of confining themselves as much as possible to their own spiritual duties, as that would be for the advantage of the Churcli. 67. Do you thhdc it for the advantage of the Church that the Catholic clergy in Ireland should take the active part that they do in temporal affairs, for instance in elections ? — I do not; I agree with the head of the Church that it is not for the good of the Church, and that it does not tend to the advancement of religion. 68. "When they do that they do it from excited feelings, or from natural causes, and it is not owing to any instruction that thej' receive at Maynooth ? — Not O'wing to any instruction that I ever heard of. 69. AVhat is your opinion of the feeling of the students now in regard to their relation to political affairs, comparing it with what it may have been at anj’ other time ?- — I think the students .are gradually becoming more moderate every day, and that this is owing to the teaching, or, in some degree at least, to the knowm opinions of certain of the professors whose opinions are respected by the students. 70. Do you think that the increased grant has had any effect either way ? — Not the slightest effect; it depends partly on the religious and theological teaching in the College, and a good deal depends u))on the state of the country. 71. In fact, the state of the public mind Avill, to a certain degree, react upon the mind of the priesthood, irrespectively of any teaching ? — Yes. 72. Are the Commisshmers to understand that you not merely teach them that they have no right, in their spiritual capacity, to interfere in politics, but that they ought not to inter- fere in that capacity ? — I advise them to that effect at the end of the year. The last lecture is what is called “ a speech from the Professor.” It is not on the usual business of the class ; it is generally only a few words — a friendly address to the students at parting; and it is on those occasions that I take the opportunity to advise, and to show them the advantages that would result to the church in Ireland, from their pursuing when they leave the College, ' a moderate course, especially in politics. 73. Do you inculcate this feeling of moderation as well during the course that you give in IMaynooth, as on taking leave of the students ? — During the course it may come in acci- dentally. 74. When the opportunity arises you do so? — I am sure I have done so; I cannot charge my memory with any particular occasion, because the lecture of the Professor is confined to the business on which he is employed at the time. 75. The proper distinction between temporals and spirituals would pervade j’our course in its iirojier place ? — Yes. 76. Is the physical condition of the College materially improved since the augmenta- tion of the grant ? — It is greatly improved. 77. Has that contributed not only to the comfort of the students, but to a general im- provement of their habits ? — It has tended greatly to the improvement of their habits, and to the respectability of the establishment generally. ' 78. Have you any reason to believe that it will make any difference one way or another, as to the class from which you will draw your students ? — I think it will not make the slightest difference one way or another. 79. Do you think that the students are better dressed ? — Decidedly. 80 . And their habits moi’e cleanly ? — There is a great want of baths in the College. 81 . Has not an alteration been made as to the regulation for cleaning their rooms? — •'»//( Otiiib( r. ISj.'t. ]!cv. C. Crolly.s.T.i’. As to viglit of infcT- I'lTi'iK'o of tlu“ ck'igy ill elect ioii.s. ■Witness’s teaching governed by tlie spirit of these obser- vations. Not for the ailv.an- tiige of the Cliureli tliat clergy .«lionld take so ai'tive a part in elections. .Advice given by ■witness to his pii[iils on foregoing sub- jects. Jinprovemont of College since angnientation of grant. 33 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOA\ riresiding over the junior stu- dents ; there is a dean also in the junior house, as it is called, hut there are four monitors there, at least ; and those monitors who preside in the study-halls, together with some others, are appointed to preside in the })rayer-hall, to see that the students attend prayers I'egularly. 11 1. The junior deans lateli' appointed are not in any way to perform the duty that was contemplated should he performed by the monitors? — Tu no way wdiatever. 1 lo. The last junior dean was not apjiointed under the statute ? — No. 116. Nor paid from the funds of the College ? — No, he is paid from the entrance fees. 1 17. Will you look at the first clause of the twelfth chapter — “ We appoint the otticers of the College in the following order — Vice-President, Deans, I’refect of the luhrary. Pro- curator, Professors of Sacred Theology, according as each may he longer elected; Pro- fessor of Physics, of Logic and Meta])hysics, of Bhetoric, of Greek and Latin Tuterature, of English Elocution, of the Irish Tjanguage, of Modern Languages.” Is that the order in Avhich you take precedence ? — Yes. 118. Then the Bursar takes precedence of the Professors of Theology ? — He does. 119. He follows the Prefect of the Dnnhoyne Establishment? — -Yes. 120. How is it that the Professor of Sacred Scripture and Hebrew .comes in as a Professor of Tlieology ? — Because, teaching theology is teaching Scripture, and teaching Scripture is teaching theology. 121. But tlie Professor of Ecclesiastical History does not rank as a Professor of Theology ? — No he does not; there is no Statute about him. 122. Who appoints the dean ? — The President recommends him to the Trustees, or some of the Trustees themselves select a person. He is then appointed without any concursus, or any test, in fact the professors do not know who will he appointed until the appointment actually takes place. 126. Has the President a casting vote in the Council ?— He has. 124. So that the President, the Vice-President, and the four deans, can outvote the Avhole of the professors ? — Yes. 125. Whereas, before this last junior dean was apy)ointed, the professors were in the majority ? — Yes ; hut not in a sufficient majority. There was sucli a number of deans — even when there were three deans, that the professors had a very small majority. 12(). Still they were in the majority ? — Yes ; just a hare majority. 127. Will you have the goodness to turn to the tenth section of the seventh chapter, wdiich state.s — ‘‘It will, therefore, he their business, at stated times, to (piestion the ]ui])ils of the various classes, concerning the subjects winch have been discussed under the direc- tion of their master; and when the ]irofessors are prevented by business or ill health, to take on them the entire duty of teaching. And since the Theology Class has increased exceedingly by the number of pupils, the President having distributed it into several parts, will a])point over each part one of the senior students, whom he himself, in conjunction wutli the council above named, shall judge most qualified for that office. But if the (piestion be concerning any other class, that, for instance, of jdiilosophy or humanity, let the professor whose province it is be also consulted.” Is that part of the Statute observed ? — -It is not observed. 128. It was contemplated by that Statute, was it not. that the Dnnhoyne students, in certain cases, might take ])art in the instruction, not merely of the students in the Theology j Classes, but also of the students in the classes of philosophy and humanity? — Certainly. 129. Are you aware that that has ever been practised? — It has never been practised | since I entered College as a student, in the year 1829, except in this wmy, that wdien the professor of any department is absent, a Dnnhoyne student is sent to lecture in his i)lace, but as to lecturing along with the professors tliat has not been done. 160. If the Dnnhoyne students w(jre to take some part in lecturing the classes of humanity, it w'ould contribute very much, would it not, to sup])ly what is meant by the function of a tutor, in reference to the junior classes ? — It would. 131. Are you of opinion, looking to the state of preparation of the junior classes, that j it would be of importance that they should be in some degree subject to the tutorial, ns distinguished from the professorial form of instruction ? — I think it would be decidedly advantageous. 132. If the mode contemplated by the Statute were put in force in a certain degree, the | tutoiial office would be effectively ^lerformed ? — There might be founded on the Statute a plan which wuuld bring the tutorial si’stem into operation. 133. Will you have the goodness to point out in what manner this Statute could be put in force ? — The Statute could be put in force, I think, very advantageously, if apian were MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. -11 agreed upon by the Eoavd of Ti'ustees, by wbicdi Iavo Dunboyne students, at least, or perliaps move, slioubl be ii])pointed toas'^ist the i)i'ofessors of the junior (dasses, adoi)ting llie tutorial method of teatdiing at a dilferent time from that at wliicdi the prolessors of tliose elasscs lecture; and I think tliat those Dunbovne students sliould receive a liigher salary than the rest, wbicli might be done in various ways. 1 tliink also that those ])ersons might be very useful afterwards when they would leave College, in teaching in the diocesan seminaries: but i thin'k tliat a longer time should be allowed to those tutors on tlie Dunboyne Establishment, for various reasons — lirst, because they would not be continually changing; they would have a longer time to perfect themselves in the languages, and the risk of inelllcient persons being appointed would be inucli lessened ; secondly, because it would be an additional inducement for a number of the Dunboyne students to prepare themselves for competing for the oiiice of tutor, when they would be allowed to remain for a longer period in College. The ajipointment should be made by public competition, the subject of which should not be general, as in the case of a concur- sus for a professor’s chair, but should be confined to languages. This would be no incon- venience to a bishop who might reiiuire the services of a Dunboyne student from his diocese, because any bishop can take his own subject out of College whenever he ['deases; and, therefore, it occurs to me, that allowing them to remain a longer time in College will not in any way prevent a bishop from employing any such person in his seminary. Each bishop has his own subjects, and he can call on them when he pleases; and, therefore, it would not have any practical effect in restraining a bishop, except that he might not wish to deprive the student of the advantages he would enjoy in College. I think that the tutors should get a larger salary than others not similarly enrployed, and this would be advantageous in other respects. The Dunboyne Establishment is so managed now, that the very weakest student, who can got the merest qualification for being admitted on the establishment, gets as much as the best student on it; and as this is an unequal dis- tribution of rewards, this increase might be so regulated as to amend that great defect. I think that the students of the Dunboyne Establishment, appointed to those ollices, should get a larger salary, and that they should be allowed three additional years on the Dunboyne, that is, six years altogether. ItU. Has a bishop the power of recalling to his diocese even one of the professors? — Any professor, except the Professors of Theology. The canon law gives a privilege to the Professor of Theology, teaching theology, to be exempted. 1:>5. And the President and the Vice-ih'esident he might call awav, might he not ? — Yes. IMG. Could the Professor of Ecclesiastical History be called away? — He could, the Professor of Scripture could not, nor the Professor of Canon Law. 1G7. Is it not necessary to be a Doctor of Laws to enjoy that privilege ? — It is not. An approved Professor of Tiieology, of Sacred Scripture, or Canon La wq actually teaching in a University, or public school, is exemiited by the canons. 'The bishop cannot force any of these to leave tiie school, so long as they conduce themselves properly ; and even if they have a prebend or beneticc, they are allowed the revenues without being obliged to residence. 'J’he chief business imposed on the Professor of Theology, by the cmions, is the reading and explanation of Sacred Scripture. 1G8. Is it any disadvantage to your College, that it is not able to give degrees, and how are degrees in divinity obtained by Homan Catholics in this country ? — It is ; the degrees that are given, are wnitten for to Home, and sent over to the individual who is then a doc- tor. Any bishop may apply for jiow^r to confer degrees on certain persons, and I believe he is never refused ; it is a mere honoraiy title, and is often conferred without any reference to qualification in theology, or, indeed, anything else that I know of. 13!). Would it be an advantage to the College of Maynooth, if it had the power of giving degrees ? — I think it is most extraordinary that such a large college should not have the power of giving degrees, at least in divinity, because it would give degrees to qualified per- sons only ; and as to those who get foreign degrees, without any examination, it would be known what such degrees were worth. At present, degrees are for the most part conferred by the newspapers; an absurd letter is quite sufficient to make the writer a Yeiy Kev. Doctor. 140. If a Dunboyne student were to aspire to a professorship, he Avould, of course, aspire to the professorship of humanity, in the frst place, would he not ? — He might aspire to any professorship that was vacant. I was not a junior professor myself, but obtained at first a professorship of theology. A junior professor has no ]u-ivilege over any other person in competing for a senior professorship. He may be, and often is, opposed by Dunboyne stu- dents, or by persons outside of the College ; but a jierson coming into the College when there are professors already prepared to stand for a senior chair, generallj' has a worse chance, not being so well made up on the various subjects ; but there is no privilege wliatever, the proi'essor must take his chance, and he is not unfrequently unsuccessful; but the usual w^ay is, that a person obtains a senior prolessorship by getting a junior chair, on first becoming a professor, and afterwards by rising to a senior chair. 'Three out of the four present theology professors occupied iunior chairs. 141. Are you of opinion that the practice of assisting iii the tutorial form, as contem- plated by the Statute, would be attended with advantage, and lead to the fulfilment of the ninth clause, namehq by preparing Dunboyne students to become professors? — It certainly would be most useful. _ 14,2. Do the junior deans peiform any functions like to those of a tutor? — None at all, V t)lli Octohrr, IS.jlJ. I’ev.G. CrolIy,s.T.i>. rower of Eisliop to recall a Professor to Ills diocese. Exemption of Pro- fessors of Theology. Disadv.antage of Avaiit of poAver to gl\e degrees. All professorships open to Dunboyne Students. 42 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. ith October, ] 853 . Rev. G. Crolly,s.T.p. 4 . Rev. John Harold. Entrance examina- tion of witness. Rank in life of stu- dents. rroficiency of stu- dents in Englisli grammar and compo- sition . the_y merely attend to discipline ; the}' occasionally give the students a sitiritual lecture during the time of prayer. 143. It would seem, therefore, that the business contemplated by the Statute, of assisting in those junior classes, would be a better preparation for a professorship than the office of dean ? — Infinitely better ; the office of dean is not a preparation, and on the ground, I believe, that it would withdraw them from their proper duties, there is a rule of the Board, that they shall not olfer themselves for a chair, or stand a concursus. [The Witness teitlidrew.] The Rev. John Harold, u.c.c., examined. 1. You are one of the Curates of the parish of Kingstown, in the diocese of Dublin? — Y es. 2. Were you educated in the College of Maynooth? — I was. 3. At what age did you enter the College ? — I entered the College when I u as eighteen years of age. The date of my entrance was September, 1838. 4. How long did you continue there ? — Five years and four months. 5. Had you previously been at any other college ? — 1 received my preparatory education at the seminary of St. Vincent, Castleknock; under the clerical professors of this estab- lishment, I remained nearly five years. 6. Were you well grounded in the English language before your entrance into l\Iay- nooth? — I consider 1 was very well grounded in English grammar, geography, and general and particular history. I was also conversant with the rules of good English composition, and the rules of good reading and delivery. 7. In w’hat books were you examined on entering Maynooth ? — Of the Greek authors, I was examined in Homer, of the Latin, in Cicero’s Orations. 8. What was the natiu’e of the examination? — I considered my examination severe, faii’ly testing my proficiency in tlie Greek and Latin classics up to that time. It was not confined merely to the construing of the autliors, but embraced the grammatical construc- tion, the derivation of words, and, in the Greek author, the formation of the tenses, and the dialects. 9. For what class were you a candidate? — The first class of rhetoric; but being defi- 1 cient in science, I was entered but for the second class, or the class of humanity. 10. By how many professors were you examined on your entrance? — I think my exami- , nation w'as conducted but by one professor ; but there were others present, as, 1 believe, ] the Statutes of the College are distinct and imperative on this point, requiring the pre- ' sence of the President and at least three professors at the examination of each candidate for admission. | 11. Was that number constantly present during your examination? — I think so. 12. Were others examined at the same time in the same room ? — No. 13. Then the professors who were pi’esent were witnesses of your examination, and could form a judgment upon it? — Certainl}’; so that when the candidate retired, their votes decided his rejection or admission. 14. Wffis there any examination in order to ascertain your proficiency in English? — None whatever. | 15. Were you at all requested to write ?— No ; English composition formed no part of my j entrance examination ; it was solely confined to the Greek and Latin authors, and science. IG. To what science do you refer ? — When I was a candidate for admission, the entrance programme for the first class of rhetoric required a knowledge of six books of Euclid, or Uarre's Geometry ; it also required a knowledge of algebra as far as quadratic equations, included. 17. How many students were in the second class of rhetoric? — I think the number was from forty to forty-five ; but on this point I do not speak with certainty. j 18. Of what rank in life was the majority of the students in that class composed? — As | far as a limited knowledge would enable me to form an opinion, I would say they j were the sons of persons in business and trade in the cities and provincial towns, and the | sons of the comfortable, middle, and humble farmers in the country. 1 answer from a i limited knowledge, because, generally speaking, diocesan associated with diocesan; the students of each province generally associated together. j 19. In your opinion, was the majority of that class well grounded in English grammar j , and composition ? — I knew a few that were very well grounded, while I knew many to be | sadly deficient. About one-half the class had acquired a fair knowledge of English gram- mar and geography. 20. What age were they, generally ? — Their ages ranged from sixteen to twenty ; a few exceeded the latter. 2 1 . Were they deficient in orthography ? — I considered a few were deficient. 22. To what do you attribute their deficiency ? — To the want of a proper preparatory education. 23. Were you asked wdiether you were capable of answering in English grammar? — There w'as no allusion whatever made to my English education. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 43 24. Would it Itavo been possible to infer, from your mode of construiu", tliatyou bad a bnovvledge of the English? — It certainly could, to a limited extent. My pronunciation and knowledge of the rules of syntax could be ascertained, but very little more. 2o. You were not asked to translate any book into English ? — No, merely to construe; that is, to give a verbal, not a written translation, 20. You were competent to have translated at the time, if you bad been asked? — I should say so, judging from the preliminary education 1 bad received. 1 was in the habit of writing weekly essays for nearly five years previous to my entrance into Maynootb. 27. Is it your opinion that the practice of composition before entrance into Maynootb is not universal in the preparatory schools ? — I think English composition is always taught in the preparatory schools; but these schools are not sufficiently numerous. Many dioceses in Ireland are without them, and to this want may be attributed, to a very great extent, the deficiency in English found in many of the candidates for admission. 28. In the dioceses wliich have not seminaries of their own, there is not, then, the facility of an inexpensive and good pre])aratoiy education for those who are going into orders? — With a few exceptions, I would say, such is the case. 1 should, however, remark, that from dioceses so circumstanced, some young men seek their preparatory edu- cation in diocesan seminaries elsewhere. 29. Is the seminary at Castleknock a diocesan seminary ? — Wlien I entered Maynootli, it was so considered. The late Archbishop, Dr. IVIurray, placed two free places in the College of Maynootli at the disposal of the President of this establishment, for those of his subjects who had distinguished themselves in their preparatory studies. 30. Are others received in Castleknock besides those going into orders? — Yes; there is also a lay seminary, in connexion with the ecclesiastical. 31. Do the young men mingle together in their studies? — Yes, 32. And in their recreations ?— Yes. 33. What was the expense at Castleknock ? — The pension of the ecclesiastical students was £25 per year ; that of the lay students £30. It was subsequently raised, but 1 believe the increase was only tcinporaiy. 34. What number of students were there ? — I think the united number of lay and ecclesiastical students was about fifty ; the accommodation, in my time, did not admit of a greater number. 35. Ranging between what ages? — I think no student was taken into the lay establish- ment who had attained his fourteenth year : I do not remember the rule in reference to ecclesiastics. 36. Do you believe that the parents generally of the young men who are going into the Roman Catholic priesthood take pains to prepare them in the English language pre- viously? — I think when a young man announces his intention of embracing the ecclesiastical state, his principal attention is directed to what seems to be the essential in the entrance programme of Maynootli. In my time the classics ■were considered to be decidedly that essential. 37. Are you aware that there was a resolution of the Trustees, in the year 1821, that no scholar should be admitted who was not capable of answering in Murray’s Grammar ? — Such a resolution may have been made, but there was no formal interrogation at entrance to test such knowledge in each candidate. 38. Therefore, in regard to a considerable proportion of the students, if they are to be good Englisli scholars at all, they ought to acquire that knowledge in the College ? — I think so. At present the entrance programme specifics a larger knowledge of English, but I believe the entrance interrogation extends only to some questions in History. 39. In your opinion, then, any presumption that may exist as to their preparation in English, would not be very well founded? — Certainly not. 40. What proportion of the class in which you entered spoke Irish vernacularly ? — I cannot speak with certainty. It was confined to the students of the West and South, and even of these some spoke it but indifferently. Supposing the class to be about forty in number, I would say ten or twelve sjioke it vernacularly. 41. In your opinion was the course of education through which that class passed suffi- cient to supply any deficiency in their previous education, especially with regard to the English language ? — With regard to the English language, in my opinion, it was not suffi- cient to the desirable extent. 42. Y on think, then, that young men might pass through their collegiate course without having acquired much knowledge of the English language ? — The only class in the College in which, in my time, the English language Avas taught was the class of Belles Lettres; and, for many reasons, I considered it insufficient to supply adequately the deficiencies in Eng- lish of the students who composed it. In the first place, it was too large, being composed of the freshmen logicians, and the students of the first and second Class of Rhetoric, the united number being more than one hundred, so that very many escaped the class-book, interrogation. In the second place, we had but one compulsory essay during the year ; any other pieces of English composition received by the professor were purely optional ; and of these optional compositions, I think not more than one-third of the class were con- tributors. Moreover, the studies necessary for the other classes prevented a sufficient time being devoted in preparation for this. The freshman logician had, besides his logics and metaphysics, a class of French every Wednesday and Saturday, and the usual study time was curtailed in his regard, the class of Belles Lettres being held each evening from 0 t>th Octohi’T, IS.").!. 4. Rov. .Jolin Il.irold. Prvparatory schools. Seminary at Castle- knock. Lay seminary. Expense at Castle- knock. Number of students. Knowledge of Eng- lish grammar not tested at entrance. Irish language. As to acquisition of English during colle- giate course. 44 MxVY^sOOTII COMMISSIOX. tith October, 1S53. "iT ]?ev. .Tolm Ilarulil. Instruclion in piX'aching. In the art of eatc- cliising. Elocution. Use of the Latin lan- guage in class. seven to eigltt o'clock. In the same way, tke students of tlie llhetoric and Tlnnianity Classes had, besides tlieii- Greek and Latin studies, their class of inathcinatics and Scrip- ture, so that little time remained at their disposal to prepare for the chi'^s of Lelies Lettres. Joining these facts to another, namely, the absence, to a very great extent, of reading and declamation, I am of opinion that, in my time in iiaynooth, the early course of education tlicre was not sidficicnt to supply adequately the dcticiencies in English of many of the students who entered it. 4.1. Was there much English reading going on in private? — Speaking gcnerall}", I would say not. 44. Is the English language used in the lecture room ?— 'Ihe language of the Logic and iMetaphysic Class is Latin ; the same is to he said of tlie class of moral and dogmatic theology; the language of the class of Sacred Scripture and that of natural i)hilosophy is Ifnglish. 45 There was no writing or general English literature during the studies? — xVpart froni the class of Lelies Lettres, to which 1 have already alluded, I would say not. 1 should except the duty which devolved on each student, of preparing sermons towards the close of his collegiate course. 4G. There is exercise, then, in the composition of sermons?— In my time the students of the second and third class of divinit}' ^vere obliged to prejiare a sermon and deliver it. 47. Some of the students never preach? — 'J'hat may accidentally happen; speaking person dly, 1 never preached. 48. Did you never receive any instruction in preaching ?— In the College of IMaynooth, certainly none. 49. Do many students go out of iJlaynooth without having received any instructions in preaching? — During the collegiate year, 1 know of no formal instruction that was given in preaching, unless we can consider the criticisms on the sermons preached, in that light ; those criticisms were given verbally after tlie sermon — first, by a student of the Divinity Class; then by a student of the Dunboyne Establishment; and, lastly, by one of the supe- riors or professors present. 50. Are those criticisms, in your opinion, sufficient ?— I never could so consider them. 51. Was tiiere no specific instruction in the art of catechising ? — Xone whatever. 52. And would it not be desirable that all the students should receive instruction in preaching and catechising ? — Certainly, both as to delivery and the art of composing a discourse The clergy of the Loman Catholic Church do not read but deliver their instruc- tions; and 1 believe it is universally admitted, that good delivery is essential to an effective discourse. The s.ame may be said of good arrangement. 53. Is there any habitual reading of the best sermons, such as those of Lossuet and IMassillon?^ — I knew many students thus to emidoy their leisure time, but I would not say' it was general. 54. Is not the duty of preaching each Sunday to their parishioners imperative on every jiarish priest ? — Yes; unless he is prevented by some legitimate cause. The Council of Trent has so decreed it. 55. Were there not some instructions given in elocution in your time in Waynooth ? — In my time, veiy little. 5b. ^Yas not -Mr. Stack so engaged ? — lie was, for a few weeks during tlie Summer vaca- tion, when the majority of the students were absent from the College. During the col- legiate year we knew nothing of his services : at present, I am told, he attends during the Christmas and Easter vacations; but as each of these continue hut for one week, 1 con- sider but little proficiency can he attained. 57. Do you consider tiiat the exclusive use of the Latin language in the classes of which it is the language is on the whole advantageous, looking to the advancement of the studj' itself of eacli class? — It is decidedly advantageous, having icgaid to the syllogistic form adopted in those classes ; moreover, it is much easier to give succinctly definitions in the Latin language than in English. 58. Do you think that the use of the Latin language in examining a class, and in answer- ing, tends to advance and perpetuate the knowledge of that language ? — It certainly jire- serves a knowledge of tlie language, but not always its classical purity. 59. Would not the use of the English language in the tlieological department tend to facilitate the practice of preaching ? — It might certainly create a facility for catechetical explanations, but I consider the reasons paramount for retaining the Latin language m the theological department. 60. Is the dogmatic teaching, generally sjieaking, in the syllogistic form ? — It is. Cl. Are the objections proposed in the .same way? — They are. 62. How long did you remain in the second class of rhetoric? — One year. 63. Into what class were you next admitted? — The class of logics. 64. Did you read in the first class of rhetoric? — I did not. Such is very common in ^Maynooth ; and, generally speaking, arises trom the peculiar wants of some dioceses. 65. Did those students who did not read in the first class of rhetoric make much profi- ciency in English in the second class? — Hauy of them made very little proficiency. 66. During the passage of the students "through the theological classes, is not their attention exclusively confined to the study of theology ? — Their attention is principally confined to the study of theology and the Sacred Scriptures. A class of ecclesiastical MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE. 45 liistory lias boon lately established ; but I believe that is iu coimexion with the class of 'f^tober, 1803. natural pbilosopliy. 07. Did you study Hebrew while at Mayuootb? — I did not. .Jolui Harold. 08. Is not that ojitional? — No : 1 would rather say, it is confined to the students of the Duuboyue Establislmient, and the students who have distinguished themselves in the class of divinity. 00. Is there any instruction in music, in the College of Hayuooth? — There is instruction Music, in the (Jregoriau note. 70. Is such instruction necessary Certainly. The music belonging to the ceremonies and offices of the Church is arranged in this note; and the duty of singing that music usually devolves on the clergy. 71. Do you consider the in.struction given in the Cregorian note sufiicient? — By no means. There is no professional teacher ; and the students who compose the senior choir, from which the heads of the different singing classes are selected, are very often deficient themselves. 72. V'ou consider, then, the instruction in this res^iect inferior? — Certainly. Time and method, so essential to correct singing, form no part of the instructions given; a knowledge of the mere note is the only thing attended to, and even in this jiroficiency is exceedingly limited. For this department the College should have a professional teacher. If the children in national schools, under professional management, have progressed, why not tlie students of Maynooth ? There should also be an organ in the College. On the continent, in those churches where the Gregorian note is adopted, there is usually an organ accompaniment. Without some such auxiliary, experience has proved that the human voice cannot bo sus- tained; it will gradually fall from the original note, a fact that must have occurred to every student who heard the choir .singing in the College of Vlaynooth. 73. If there was an organ, some of the students of taste could with advantage be instructed in it? — Certainly. 74. Is it not the fact, that in the majority of cases where the parish prie.sts have to perform divine Avor.shi[) there is no organ? — There are very few organs to be found in the country districts : this arises from their jioverty. They are almost entirely confined to the churches in the cities and provincial towns. There are many choirs, however, where organs are not found ; but it is not the Gregorian note they adopt: this, I may say, is confined to the ecclesiastical colleges, in the principal of which, with the exception of Maynooth, there is an organ. 75. Are you acquainted with the curriculum of study in any other institution like that of IMaynooth from which tlie clergy are ordained for the Boman Catholic Church ? — With the exception of Castleknock, where students have been ordained for the Society of St. Vincent of Paul, I am not. I considered the English language admirably professed in this seminary. We had weekly compulsory compositions, specimens of good style weekly read to us from the English classics ; and every Wednesday and Saturday we had exercises in reading and declamation. In these respects I considered it superior to Mayncoth. 76. Did the professors associate with the students in the College of Maynooth? — Out- Intercourse of the side of class there was no intercourse or association tvhatever. smdenTs^L''Ma 77. Intercourse, then, between professor and student, which is of great importance in nooth. ^ ^ forming the disposition, was altogether omitted ? — Viewedni that light, no such intercourse existed. 78. How many years is it since you left Maynooth ? — About ten years. 79. Are you acquainted with the standard of education there now ? — 1 think very little alteration has been made. 80. Is it not an admitted fact, that the education of the laity in Ireland has been very Enlargement of the much enlarged of late years? — Certainly. The National System of Education has education of the laity opened the way to improvement. The Mechanics’ Institutes have been also so many ‘Ou mg late years, auxiliaries. 81. Do you think the standard of general education in the lower department in May- nooth, sufficiently high for the clergy, having regard to the enlarged education of the laity? — I think the standard of education in Greek and Latin too high, while I consider the standard of education in English too low. 82. Was it much the practice for the students to continue their classical studies after they had passed through the classes in which they read them as a matter of necessity ? — I knew some few students who, from very great taste for the classics, continued to read them during their senior studies; but such was not general. 83. Is it advisable to give an entire year exclusively to natural philosophy? — The many Natural philosophy, branches it embraces could not be properly treated in less. Chemistry is excluded from the course, from deticiency of time. 84. Are the different treatises taught in a proper manner? — Yes, they are all taught mathematically. 85. Are there lectures in spherical trigonometry? — Yes. Trigonometry. 86. How far do they read in astronomy ? — The entire course. Vince’s Treatise was the Astronomy, class-book, and the mathematical method of demonstration there adopted was always followed. 87. Were the students, at the end of their year of natural philosophy, examined as to their proficiency? — Yes. 88. Are not some premiums given? — Yes; the usual number is three, to each of which three students may be called. 46 :\iayxootii commissions. .")i’ofessor to discover the talents and proficiency of each individual — ^now the 2 iro 2 )Osed change contains both 2 ii’o visions. For the 251'ofessor is at liberty to interrogate anj' student wdiom he 2 ficases, and as frequently as he pleases ; hence, the whole class must be 2 )i’ep;^i’ed in the business of every lecture. There could not be a better 2 )rovision for constant and regular studjn For ascertaining the talents and 2 ;>roficiency of each, he can call U 2 ion four at each class, as I have already said ; he will thus have examined each of the students five or six times during the year. He will, besides this, interrogate, say eight or ten on each first Tuesday of the month, which is a revision day. He will, again, have two examinations, one at Christmas, in the matter discussed U 2 ^ to that, and the other in June, in the business of the whole year. These are, I think, sufficient data to judge from. 8. But the examinations onlj" last for ten minutes? — I think the examination time too short, as also the time allowed to 25repare for them, which is onty three days. !). You have seventy students in your class at 2 )i’esent, have ,you not ? — Yes. 10. How many lectures do they at 2 R'esent attend every day? — Two on four days in the week ; — I S 2 :>eak of my own class, for the three senior 2 )i’ofessors have but one class on Fridays. 11. According to the arrangement which you 2 >ropose, the students in j'our class would still receive two lectures daily, would they not ? — Yes. 12. One in the morning, in dogmatic theology, and one in the evening, in moral theo- logy ?— Yes. 13. How are the lectures on moral and dogmatic theology given at 2 ;>resent ? — At 2 >re- sent we teach dogmatic theology U 2 > to Christmas, and moral theology from Clu’istmas to the end of the jmar, the same professor teaching both. 14. How many lectures do the students receive in theology now? — Two from the same- professor. This for four day's in the -^\'eek from the Junior Professor of Theology. 15. What lectures do they' receive on Wednesday' and Saturday' ? — They' receive no lecture in theology on Wednesday' 16. Do they attend any lecture? — The students of theology from the three senior classes receive a lecture in Scrtyture, and the students in the first class of theology receive a lecture in ecclesiastical history'. On Saturday', all the theological students receive one , lecture in theology ; the students of the three senior classes a lecture in Sci’tyture ; and the students of my' class a lecture in ecclesiastical history'. 17. The students would not have more work in the 2 >i' 02 ^osed arrangement ? — No ; and we would have more time to yn’epare the matter of each lecture. 1 CIU Ocloher, I85'!. 5 . Rev. Henry Neville. Suggested alteration in Hivinity Classes. Statement of witness’s views on that point. Present distribution of teaehing in Moral and Doginatie Theology. 48 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. iUh Ocloher, 18j;J. 5. Kpv. Henry Neville. Sii^gesteil alteration in Divinity Classes. The largeness of the class, uiuler the pro- posed system, no ground of objection. 18. Independently of the advantage of more leisure to the professors, you seem to eon- template an advantage in the students pursuing two courses iit the same time ? — What I stated was, tliat in every other Catholic college the classes of dogmatic and of moral theo- logy are conducted at the same time, hand-in-hand. 1 9. By two dilferent professors ? — Yes, by two different professors everywhere ; and I sug- gested the propriety of conforming our mode of teaching to one universally prevailing. But tliere is a utility in this system of teaching theology which I maj^ exeni])lify. The treatise I teach now is that “Be Sacramentis in genere.” In it are discussed dogmatic questions relating to the sacraments, and also moral or practical (questions, both closely connected; the questions regarding practice arising out of dogmatic truths, freipieutly determined by dogmatic principles, and in turn serving to illustrate those truths and principles. Obviously these studies should not be separated by reading the dogmatic business at one part of the year, and the moral at another, but should i)ioceed conjointly, the corresponding subjects in both being read simultaneously. The diversifying of the study, which expe- rience proves to be of very great assistance to the student, may be considered as another advantage in this system. 20 . The only objection seems to he, making so very large a class as 110 ? — I do not think there is any ground for objection in that. 21. Is not thirty considered, in most places, a very good class in theology ? — I should say not. In seminaries they must be content with that, or even a smaller number ; but in colleges of note the classes are much larger. The theological classes at the Iloman I'ni- versity exceed 200. There is not a siifhcientl}^ stimulating emuhition among the students of a small class. The emulation increases with the number; and I am, therefore, of opinion that the studies of the house would be promoted considerably if the classes were enlarged. There can be no doubt of it; the competitoi's would be more numerous, and the distinction ac(puired by the successful one necessarily greater, for the student who receives a prize among 1-10 will prove himseii of higher merit than he who obtains liis prize in a class of seventy. There is a rather remarkable fact it may be well to mention here. We lind from experience that, frequently, one class has a great number of jiersons of talent in it, and the next class very few : the distribution of talent in the classes is remarkably unequal; the result is, that an equal number of persons get on the Bunboyne out of the inferior class, and receive as many lu’izes, and of the same value, as those of the more talented one ; and even, in some instances, persons succeed in obtaining the Bunboyne who are absolutely unlit for that distinction. That inconvenience would be obviated by combining two classes in one. 22. You would get a wider area of selection ? — Yes. 23. Are you acquainted with the curricula of other Colleges ? — Sufficiently- I know' the general mode of teaching. In Home, for instance, there is a distinct Professor of Bogmatic and Moral Theologj- ; thej' never think of combining them. The students attend the dogmatic class one hour of the day, and the moral class another. In the smallest seminary in France, they have distinct professors. 24. Is there not this objection to your suggestion — that there would he very great dis- content among the men of the junior class called up to compete with those who had been studying the general science of theology a year longer than themselves ? — Whatever dis- advantage the junior class labours under one year will be compensated In' a corresponding advantage the next; for the class that competes with the senior class this year will itself compete w'ith a junior class next year. 25. 'Would not the alteration which you }>ropose also involve an alteration in the arrangements in the junior department, which itself might be advisable — namely, that of combining tw'O subjects by uniting tw'O classes in one ? — I think the alteration might be advantageously extended to the junior classes. 2b. Your arrangement w'ould break up the sj'stcm of single year's men, and the division of one year, two years, and three years; they w'ould be combined in periods of tw'O years, but in the upper department you would have tw'o large classes ; the one studying dogmatic theology, under w'hat is now termed the Professor of the first year’s theology, and who w'ould become Junior Professor of Bogmatic Theology, and the other studying under the professor of the second j'ear’s theology, who might become Junior Professor of Moral Idieology ; there w'ould he a curriculum of tw'o years, and they w ould then pass into the senior department, and he under the Senior Professor of Bogmatic Theology, and the Senior Professor of Moral Theology ? — Yes, exactly so. 27. In the low'er school, there should be, in your opinion, an analogous arrangement I do not think the change for the junior classes equally necessary ; I am, however, of opi- nion that even in them it may be made with advantage. 28. So that they w'ould come up in two years ? — -Yes. There is another advantage in combining the classes of theology wliich just now occurs to me ; it is that the students m the junior class would derive considerable advantage from being engaged in the same study with the students of the class above them ; their immediate seniors who had read one year’s theology, for the students of the same department do confer a good deal on the sub- ject matter of tlieir study, and those men would he better qualified to understand even a new portion of theology than the juniors wlio had not read any theology at all. 29. AVould you confine a professor permanently to his own branch, going back on the original system, or change it among them each year ? — I would not confine each professor to the same department permanently, as that w'ould be irksome and uniniproving. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 49 no. Do 3 ’ou think that a simihu’ evil exists in the lower classes of the students being c/h October, I8u-i. confined too much to one special study successively, and would not what you suggest in the ~z — senior class he an advantage in the junior, namely, that two classes should be bracketed together instead of being in successive years, so that each student should not be confined Neville, for his one year to one branch of study, hut ])ursue two branches of study along side of each other ? — I think it would be an improvement ; and I ma}' state, that there are a number of students, who apply themselves successfully to other studies hut on whom the physic year is really lost. :31. The Commissioners arc led to think from what has been stated, that too short a period is given to the study of the Greek language in the College. ; and, on theother hand, that the department of physical science coinjirehends too large a field of subjects to be studied with advantage in a single year. Are you of opinion that by combining the two ujiper classes of the lower department in one, so that they should he able to study their logic and ethics during two years, and a curriculum of jihysical study also in one of the two years — proceeding, t herefore, yic/iv' jiasstt in the two studies would be an advantage as com- pared with the present system ? — I do not see exactly how it would enable them to have a larger course of Greek study; at present Greek is read only in the classes of humanity and rhetoric. 32. The}" do not read Greek in the logic year ? — The course is this : — In the first year are read the classics of the humanity course ; in the second, those of the rhetoric ; in the third, logic, metaphysics, ethics, and h’rench ; and in the fourth }"ear, physics, and some mathematical science ; so that there is no study of Greek after the first two years. 33. And then the consequence is, that many of the students totally forget all their Greek Greek, before they get to theology at all ?— Yes, or veiy soon after. 34. Can you suggest how that could be remedied in the most suitable manner; do you think that encouragement and facility should he given for the continued study of Greek ? — Yes. 35. Could you suggest any mode by which that could be arrived at ? — I do not think it SugRestious for pro- would be a sufficient ground for the creation of -a new professorship; I think it should be looting tliat study, provided for by getting some of the present professors to give an hour or two in the week to a permanent class of Greek ; that hour or two, taking the place of one or two of their present classes, or that it should be done by lectures given by the Dunboyne students. 30. You think that the Dunboyne students might be made available for the instruction Employmentfof of the other students ? — I think they might, and ought. Uimboyne students. 37. You are aware that it is so contemplated by the Statute, and you think that the object of the Statute should be carried out? — Yes, decidedlj". 38. Have you thought of any plan for carrying it out ? — I never have thought of defi- nitely marking out the details of the plan, but 1 do not think it can be very difficult. 3'J. You studied yourself in the Logic Class at Maynooth, did you not? — I studied in that class, and aftertvards taught it for a year, before I was made Professor of Theology. 40. YTiat are the subjects on vv'hich you lectured iu that class ? — The treatises from which the Professor of Logic lectures are the Lyons Course of Philosophy. 41. Is that iu the French or Latin language? — liatin. It is reprinted in Dublin for Logic, the College. Thex’e are three tracts, “ Logica,” “ Metaphysica,” “ Ethica.” The tract “Logica” treats of definition, of the nature and varieties of terms, the nature and the qualities of propositions, the kinds of propositions, syllogisms, the rules of syllogisms, and various kinds of argumentation, in its first part ; in the second part, it discusses the motives of judgment. In the first part, the student is taught the abstract rules of logic, and in the second, the condition of the applicability of these rules, that is, the existence of certain means in men of discovering real absolute truth — actual existence. These means or sources of actual knowledge are enumerated, and explained and established. “ Sensus intimus,'’ which informs him of the present actual state of his own mind, the ideas he has, the judgment he forms, the sensations lie experiences, and so on. “ Evidentia,” pointing out the relations between ideas, their agreement or disagreement. “ Memoiia,” by which we become cognizant of former conscious states of our minds. “ Pielatio sen- suum,” through which we are made aware of material existence. “ Testimonium ITominiim,” on which we rely for our knowledge of facts occurring not in our presence, &c. 42. In addition to logic, you also study ethics ? — Metaphysics and ethics. The meta- Metaphysics, physics treatise commences with what are called general metapliysics, which teach the general properties of beings, such as the nature of possibility and of essence, of nature, natura, the relation of cause aiul efiect, and the general qualities of being, as they are called, the transcendental qualities. After general metaphysics, comes the treatise of special metapli 3 'sics, which is divided into two parts, the one regards God, the “ Spiritus Increatiis,” the other regards the human mind, “spiritus creatiis, ’ and is called iisychology. Ill the first part we prove, by five arguments, the existence of God, and meet the objec- tions of the infidels. AYe then pass on to establish the various attributes of God, and mention the principal errors that have been broached regarding them. In the second part we treat of the human soul, its spirituality, its simplicity, its power of thinking, experiencing sensations, forming judgments, reasoning — entering meantime into the various speculations of philosophers, Descartes, Mallebranche, Clarke, Locke, and any others that the professor may deem fit to introduce ; but those mentioned are treated of in the tracts themselves. 43. In metaphysics? — Yes; in ethics we first treat of the nature and circumstances of Ethics, a human, that is, an imputable act, then lay down the internal rule of morals, namely, h 6/A October, 1853. Rev. Henry Neville. Authors referred to on the subjects of metaphysics and ethics. Combination of Logic and Natural Pliilosophy Classes. Latin the language of the Logic Class. Advantage of this. 50 MAYXOOTH COMMISSION. conscience, and explain its nature, the various kinds of consciences, the timorous con- science, the lax conscience, the scrupulous conscience, the erroneous conscience ; we then pass to what is termed the external rule of morality, which is law, and discuss various questions relatmg to the natiu-al law, whence it derives its force, whether it can be dis- pensed with, even by God ; refuting, as we proceed, the opposite errors of Plobbes, Spinoza, &c. These three sets of subjects form the study of the logic j'ear. 44. Is the study of etliics confined to the study of natural law ? — AVe do not, in our study of ethics, investigate any hut the natural law. 45. You do not go to questions of positive law ? — No ; those are reserved for a special treatise of theology. 46. These treatises being the Ljmns course, does the professor at all refer to any of the treatises of Aristotle on metaphysics, or ethics, or topics, or any of those subjects ? Not to the treatises of Aristotle himself, these are too difficult and too complicated for an elementary course of studies, but the Professor frequently refers to logicians and meta- physicians who have made Aristotle their text-book, to Latin writers generally, those called scholastics. Indeed, our treatise itself is the logic of Aristotle made elementary. 47. Will you mention a few of the authors you refer to? — AVe refer to the writers of the rival schools of Scotists and Thomists on the points controverted between them, also to Sanderson, Drouas, and the “ ars cogitandi,” and amongst the moderns to Noget, La Coudre, to Dmowski, a very celebrated professor of logic in Rome ; and Ubaghs, who is now, I thmk, president of one of the Louvaine Colleges. There are several others on special subjects referred to — for instance, Berkety, whom we read in class occasionalty. 48. Berkely’s Minute Philosopher ? — AVe generally read Berkely for the purpose of refuting his theory of the non-existence of matter. 49. The Greek language is not at all used in this class, is it? — The study of Greek ceases when the student commences logic. 50. Does not the subject-matter of this class embrace a very wide field of subjects ? — It does, and a very interesting one. 51. Ai-e you now of opinion or not, looking at the large field of mental philosophy which is discussed in the Logic Class as distinguished from the large body of phj'sical philosophy in the other classes, that the biennial course might be very advantageously given up to the study of each by the side of one another? — I am decidedty of that opinion. I thmk, even granting that they have only the same time in the two years for each study which they have now in the one, that still the more lengthened period given to each will enable them to digest it better. Besides, the study of the physical sciences simultaneousty with the logic, will afford an opportunity of exercising the latter. 52. AViU you just go back for a moment to the classes of humanity — in the Rhetoric Class the second book of Aristotle’s Rhetoric is studied, is it not ? — I never read in Rhetoric Class in klaynooth ; but I have heard that it is optional with the professor to introduce it or not. The present professor has introduced it, but not as a fixed class-book ; I believe he varies the hooks eveiy two or three years. 53. You are not aware whether the Third Book of Rhetoric upon style is used ? — No, I am not aware of that. 54. Is the language of the Logic Class exclusively Latin? — Yes. 55. Are these difficult subjects all taught exclusively in Latin, and so answered ? — Yes, except for the first week or fortnight ; the students are then rather stiff in their Ijatin, and the jn'ofessor, as he finds it necessary, passes into English now and then. 56. AVhen you were Professor of Logic, did you find that many of the students lost a considerable portion of the year from want of familiarity with speaking Latm ? — I think not; the difficulty, as long as it continued, was in expressmg themselves, irot in acquiring a loiowledge of the subject from the Latin — the Latin of our treatises is sufficiently simple. 57. You think that they were all capable ? — ^Yes ; a student of ordinary ability is able to speak Latin very well at his Christmas examination. 58. Latin, I presume, is not the language of ply^sical science ? — No. 59. Do you conceive it to be the most advantageous mode of discussing questions involved in logic and metairhysics, to confine the teaching of it to Latin ? — I do ; there are terms in both sciences, but paidicularly in metaplysics, consecrated by use, whose meanings, though perfectly definite, cannot be translated into corresirondiug English terms, but must be conveyed in an explanation. 60. AVould it not be possible to adhere to those terms, and yet employ the Enghsh language ? — I think there is a pointedness in the Latin language, and a conciseness that suits it very much to the teaching of logic. 61. Do you think that the mind as fully embraces the whole of these subjects, when confined to a learned language as when taught or discussed in the common language in which a man thinks ? — I think a person who reads his logic in Latin, and answers upon it in Latin, comes even to thmk in Latin upon logical subjects. 62. Does it not rather lead to a technical mode of thought than othenvise, and to the danger of mistaking words for ideas ? — I do not think so ; the terms we use have aU very definite meanings, and in most instances have not been translated, but adopted m their Latin form by such writers as have written on logic in spoken languages. Take, for instance, the words “ Conversa, convertenda” — “ subalternans, subalteniata” — “ comprehensio et extensio” — ^the term “ medium” when speaking of contradictory propositions — the tenns “ Dictum, modus” in the modal propositions, and, indeed, the entire terminology of syllogisms. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 51 () 3 . Avo tlie Commissioners riglit iu supposing that 3 'ou teach these sciences after a strictlj' scholastic method ? — I woxild not say strictly scholastic, Ave do not folloAv the schooimen into their more abstnise and unimportant speculations — as, for instance, “ Quomodo ens contrahatur ad inferiora ejus,” Ac. () i. To make logic practical, is it not desirable that the student should he accustomed to treat matters in the form in which they will he presented to him afterwards by his flock in English ? — IjOgic is a practical pursuit for our students, not merely in the way you contemplate, but also as preparatory to the study of theology and the discussion of the doc- trinal questions they shall have to investigate therein. It is chief!}" in this wa}" that it is a practical pursuit for them ; and as those studies are conducted in Latin, the propriety of acquiring logic in that language is quite obvious. I would not, however, exclude the object you propose. I only say that it is not our sole nor our principal end in this stud}". 05. Is the liatin of the class-room scholastic Latin rather than classical Latin? — Yes; not crabbedly scholastic. Some of our writers write Avhat I may venture to call classical scholastic Latin, which Ave endeavour to imitate as mx\ch as possible. 00. If you illustrate by reference to the modern Avriters, you must translate those modern Avriters into another language ? — No ; Ave read them in the language in AA'hich they have written. 07. Then those modern writers have contrived to deal with this difficulty of the defini- tions of logic Avithout the aid of Avriting in the Latin language ? — Some have, and some have not ; and, as I have stated already, they have adopted the Latin terminology. 08. You alluded to Locke and Clarke ? — Yes ; but neither has left us a complete system of logic or metaphysics. Clarke has treated some metaphysical questions remarkably well in English, in his “ Demonstration of the Being and Attributes of God however, I am inclined to think that both would have managed their subject better in Latin. 09. This alteration which the Commissioners have been considering would entail an alteration in the jmiior classes of the junior departments — for instance, Avith regard to the two humanities, supposing they were combined in a biennial ciu’riculum mstead of an annual one, would there be any objection to that? — I can see none. I think it Avould be more easily effected in those classes than in the Logic and Physic Classes. 70. You have stated, in your answer to a former question, that the house treatises are Delahogue’s Theologia Dogmatica and ScaA'ini’s Theologia Moralis. What are the Com- missioners to understand by “ house treatises ?” — Those adopted by the College Trustees for the use of the students, in Avhich theii’ lessons are marked by the professors. 71. In fact they are to indicate the course of study to the students ? — Yes ; just as the Lyons treatises do in philosophy. 72. Are they to be regarded as an expression of the opinions of the house ? — No, decidedly not ; they contain several opinions not adopted in the College. 73. They are merely text-books adopted as the most convenient ? — Yes ; in which to mark the lessons. The professor follows them as closely as he can in the examining of the students ; but is, in many instances, forced to depart from them, and give explanations of his own. 74. You have stated that you also refer to other writers in dogmatic theology — such as Suarez, De Lugo, Becanus, Tournely, &c. ? — Yes. 75. Are those scholastic treatises ? — Not all. 7G. Will you specify whicH are the scholastic writers ? — De Lugo discusses scholastic questions, but does not confine himself to them; his do^m'tic and moral Avritings are mcomjAarabl§. Suarez has treated nearly the same si{bject^,'’tmffi“his- ehara cter as" a theOlo- Avriter is scarcely inferior. Becanus is both scholastic and controversial. Tour- nely’s work comprises the Avhole course of dogmatic theology ; it is styled “ Prelectiones Theologicse quas habuit in Scholis Sorbonicis Honoratus Tournely.” 77. Is he a modern Avriter ? — No, of 150 years ago. 78. If your plan was ado})ted, do you thmk that the professors could write out treatises on different subjects ? — Yes ; for, beside that they Avould have more time at their disposal, they Avould have also more Augour for such a task than they can feel at present, when the whole day is occupied, either in teaching or preparation for teaching. And, really, nothing can be more desirable ; for we have not any jArinted theology at present that we can point to and say, “ this is the theology of the professors of Maynooth.” 79. They are desirous of liaAung one which really expresses their oAvm views? — Yes. 80. That would, probably, only answer for a time ? — It would be A"ery likely to continue. Succeeding professors may differ on a point here and there, but the substance they would be agi’eed upon, as they Avould, or most of them, have studied in Maynooth themselves. 81. The professors Avoixld generally feel it satisfactory to themselves that the opinions which they profess should be fairly understood by all ? — Yes ; and I will A^enture to assert that, both in the opinions and the manner of treating certain subjects of several of the theological Avi'iters, there are thuigs that we AV"ould unanimously condemn, and which are, nevertheless, every day urged as objections against Maynooth. 82. Is it the usual practice in the universities for the body of professors to have text- books of their own belonging to their special classes ? — Yes ; and not only in uniA^ersities or colleges of note, almost every seminary in France has a theology of its own. 83. Is the treatise of St. Liguori on moral theology, which you use, a treatise in Latin or in Italian ? — In Latin. 84. You have alluded to the employment of the Dunboyne students in the instruction h 2 (i//t October, 1853. 5. Kev. Henry Neville. Study of logic chiefly looked upon as preparatory to theology. House treatises. Writers in dogmatic theology referred to. E.xpediency of pro- fessors preparing house treatises. Employment of 52 >IAY.\OOTII COMMISSION. 0//t October, 1850. 5. IJev. Ilcnrj^ Xeville. llunbovnc Stiulcnts in teaching. Entrance E.xamina- tion — English Gram- mar. Kule on that subject not enforced. Instruction in Eng- lisli. Irish language. of tlic juniors; in what mode do yon think tliej' could best he employed, or what is the idea that yon have as to the mode in which they could be employed in accordance with the Statutes ? — I tliink their services might be availed of for continuing the study of Greek among the students of philosophy and divinit}'. They might idso be occasionally em})loyed as lecturers in tlieology. 8 5. You are aware, probably, that tlie Statutes contemplate that at times they may take part in the instruction in philosopliy and humanit}’ ? — Y'es. 8G. Are you of opinion that they could be employed a certain portion of time to per- form something like the part of a tutor, as distinguished from that of a professor, in refe- rence to tlie junior departments ? — Yes; for 1 am convinced that our humanities are not taught in a sufiiciently tutorial style. 87. Tlie professorial system of instruction is rather vague for the juniors, is it not ? — It does not keep them closely enough to the work. 88. It rather addresses itself to the subject than to the mode of learning the subject ? — Yes ; and it rather provides that a certain amount of business shall be treated before the Avhole class than that each student shall accurately know every part of that business. 89. There is a resolution of the Trustees in reference to the entrance course, that no scholar sliall be admitted into the College of Maynooth who shall not be found capable of answering in Murray’s Abridgment of the English Grammar ; is it the practice to exa- mine candidates for admission into the College in English grammar ? — I never saw that rule enforced. 90. Are you aware for what reasons this resolution has not been enforced or followed ? -—I presume, that it was thought unnecessary to enforce it “ad literam that the candi- date’s translation of the classical books aftorded sufficient means of determining his know- ledge of English grammar. 91. Do you mean oral translation or written? — Oral translation. 92. They are not required to translate, in writing, any Latin or Greek work into English ? — They are not. 98. Therefore, the examination in the books would only go to test their mode of speak- ing English ? — Yes. 94. Are any lectures given in English after the student comes into Maynooth, and what is the nature of tlie instruction given in English composition ? — Lectures are given in English on the evenings of the study-days, from seven to eight. The S3'stem of teaching presumes the students to be acquainted with English grammar, and commences with the grammar of rhetoric, portions of which thev commit to memory, and are interrogated in by the professor. Once a month a subject is proposed to the whole class, on which they write for an hour. The essays are all lianded in to the professor, who selects some of the best, and calls upon the writers to read them publicly. He reads afterwards, without mentioning names, some of the worst, and points out the defects. The students are free to compose and present to the professor private essai's during the course of the j'ear. Persons who look for prizes frecpiently write and give in, perhaps, as many as fifteen or twenty, written on any subject the}' choose ; others, probably, would give only two or three, and some none. 95. You have stated in your answer to the question respecting the examination at the entrance, that there is at present no examination to test the candidate’s knowledge of the English language, and that this should be remedied ? — Yes. 9f). In what way could it be best remedied ? — I have thought the matter over, and I am of opinion that there should be some examination in English composition. 97. Would it be an advantage if the student was required to translate one or two authors into English ? — It would be well to give him a passage in a Greek or Latin author, and require him to write it into English, allowing him ten minutes or a quarter of an hour. 98. Is there any means of testing by oral translation whether the candidate for admis- sion can spell English ? — No. 9i). That test can only be applied by a written translation ? — Yes; that would be one of the beneficial results of the change. 100. What is the state, of the prolleiency, from your obseiwation among the students, as to sp -lling English ? — Some of them are rather deficient in that respect. 101. Is there any part now of the education in Maynooth which tends to teacli them spelling of English ? Does the lecture in Belles Lettres at all direct itself to spelling of English ?— I tliink not ; I think the only jirovision made is the writing of essays ; if they misspell in them the professor calls attention to it. 102. Arc the students examined in the Irish language on admission? — No; except the student declares he has not learned the English catechism, v.diich sometimes occurs, theu he is examined in the Irish catechism as a means of testing his religious knowledge. 108. Do the majority of the students speak Irish ? — No. 104. Or learn it? — A good number do. 105. There is a professor in the Irish language, is there not ? — Y’es ; but only students from certain dioceses are bound to attend his class : from those dioceses where it is required. I tliink from all Munster, from all Connaught, from two or three dioceses in Ulster, and from Ossory, in Ijeinster. lOG. Is it a fact, as far as has come under your observation, that the necessity of employ- ing the Irish catechism as a test at admission, increases or decreases — in other words, does MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 53 the knowledge of the Irish liuigimge rather increase or decrease o)i the part of the students ? 1 think the knowledge of tlio Irish language amongst the students is decreasing rapidly. 107. It has been stated by one of the professors, that the Irish language is rather decreasing than increasing? — Yes; but in religions matters the people still adhere to it. They invariably prefer the Irish language as a means of conveying religious instruction to their children, or receiving religious instruction or exhortation themselves. 108. In fact the Irish language is more intelligible to them than the English ? — Yes; they are more at home in it. 100. It appears that since the increased grant of 1845, one year has been added to the course of theology ? — Yes. 110. Has the addition of this year caused an extension of the subjects ? — Yes; subjects that were never read before by the ordinary students, are now read : a treatise on Grace is read, and one on the Duties of States, and other treatises that before the increased grant had frcfpiently to be omitted, amongst which were the treatises on Contirmation and Orders. 111. The education, therefore, in the senior department, is a more comprehensive education, and more complete for a theologian, than it was before the increased grant? — Yes ; and a considerable improvement in that department is the result. 112. How many students are there in the four senior classes altogether ? — About 250. 113. How many in the three senior classes ? — About 180. 114. TTou have stated that premiums are given at the examinations? — VYs. 115. How often do those examinations take place for the purpose of giving those premiums ? — There are two examinations every year, and premiums are given after the second examination at the end of the academical j'ear. 110. Are you of opinion that the premiums are adequate in number and in value at present ? — They certainly are not such in value as to stimulate the students to study. 117. Are those premiums given in money or in the form of books? — In the form of books. 118. Are they well selected, do you think, for the purpose ? — T think the books are well selected — that is, that the kind of books is well selected. I do not say that the particular copies they get are — I do not think so ; but the class of books is. For instance, the students in theology obtain breviaries and missals as premiums, both which are necessary to them for professional purposes. 119. Have the professors any choice as to the editions ? — No. Some editions are not well selected, and there are even some books which I think quite unsuitable to be premiums for students. 120. Would you not think it advisable that they should have, as premiums, sometimes, books which it would be desirable they should possess, as a part of a clergyman’s library, but which they vvould not of necessity possess ? — I think so. 121. The students in the lower classes have not, generally speaking, the use of the library ? — No. 122. It is confined, principally, to the students in theology, is it not? — Yes, exclu- sively. 123. Considering that the students in theology are entitled to an allowance of T20 a year each, over and above their expenses, would it not be fair that they should pay an entrance fee of a guinea or two for the use of the library ? — I do not think it would be necessary to tax the students — there are, I think, sufficient funds at the disposal of the Board, to improve the library. 121. Do not the students constantlj' abuse those books which they use ? — There is very little abuse of the books. 125. Have the junior students a libraiy of their own ? — When I w'as a junior student, they had : we had a small library, where we read on wet Wednesdays, and other idle days ; I have been told that that has been abolished ; I think it would be an improvement if there were a library suitable to their studies, containing books of English Literature, &c. 126. Have you any idea as to what would be the best way of forming such a librai’y ? — Those books which formed the library when I waas a student must still be in the College. They could be restored to their former destination, and be added to from time to time. Perhaps, also, some books might be given from the senior library. 127. Might that addition be made at a small cost ?— Yes, I should think so. 128. Could a portion of the eight guineas entrance fee be applied in that w'ay ? — I do not know how' that has been applied up to the present ; I believe it now’ forms the salary of one of the Deans. There are, I am certain, other sources from which a fund for the hbrary might be obtained without levying it on the students ; I think it unnecessary to have recourse to that ; it would, perhaps, be somewhat too hard also, seeing that deduc- tions are already made from the T28 a year allow’ed by the act of 1845, for each student’s commons. 129. Have the professors any intercourse w’ith the young men whom they teach, beyond that of the class room ? — No. 130. They have no opportunity of inspecting their studies, or of forming their minds or characters ? — No. 131. They are, in fact, mere lecturers ? — Yes, lecturers and examiners ; w’e meet them in the class halls, and nowhere else. 132. Do you conceive that the professors might be more intimately interwoven with the system? — It has occurred to me frequently that it w’ould be advisable that the professor (jth Ocloher, 185 . 3 . 5 . Itev. Henry Neville. Theolog}'. Extension and im- provement of that department sinee in- creased grant. Premiums. Library. Librarj’ for junior classes. Intercourse between professors and stu- dents. 54 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. iith October, ]853. 5 . Rev. Henry Neville. \ No intercourse be- tween Professors and Students in hours of relaxation. Difficulty of effect- ing a change in the present system. The Deans. The Monitors. of each class had somethhig more to do with conducting and regulating the studies of the members of his class. This should he attended with decided advantage to the students. 133. Has a professor no control or direction of the studies in the rooms of the students ? None at all ; he meets them in the class halls, and nowhere else. 134. He takes no part in their discipline? — Not in directing the studies of individuals 135. Do anj" officers of the College direct the studies of individual students ? — No one : general provisions are made for the promotion of study, such as the rule of silence, and the rule obliging the students to remain in their own rooms, or halls, during study time, but they are not individually directed in their studies — that is, no one suggests to individuals how they might apply themselves most efficiently ; as, for instance, to point out to each Iverson what works he should particularly consult, and what avoid. From the want of some such supervision, a good deal of time is lost, particularly by students of moderate abilities, attempting authors too difficult for them. 13G. There is nothing to i>revent you doing that, I presume. At your lectures you direct then’ studies by setting them a task for the next day ? — Yes, but that is en masse. 137. Do you never send for an individual student to communicate with him on the sub- ject of his reading ? — Scarcely ever, except where he has been very deficient, and we may then, out of charity to the person, send for him and suggest that it null be necessary for him to improve his studies, if he expects to be promoted to orders. 138. Is it against the rules for an individual student to come to a professor to seek an audience, to ask him any questions ? — It is not. On the contrary, students frequently come for that jrarpose ; sometimes with questions that have occurred to themselves in their study, sometimes with difficulties they have received from missionary priests to get solved by the professors. 139. If a student finds some difficulty — in a work of theology, for instance — which he cannot master, is he allowed to come to the professor to ask him to assist him ? — He is free to do it, but it is not very usual. 140. Is that encom’aged by the professors ? — The professors do not give the students any positive invitation to consult them m such cases, but whenever consulted they comply with the greatest readiness. 141. Do the professors associate with the students at all in the hours of relaxation ? — No ; never. 142. Or do they hold any intercourse with them ? — No. 143. Is it, in your opinion, advisable or unadvisable that they should do so ? — The present system is so inveterate, that I think it would be very hard to change it. 144. Supposing that it could be changed, do you think that it would be advisable ? — It would certainly tend to improve the students, if it were practicable, but our numbers are too great. 145. The juniors would probably regard the presence of the professors as a sort of surveillance ? — No, not of the j>rofessors ; the chief difficulty consists in the number. 146. Do not you thmk, supposing it could be done, that it would have a good effect in educating the dispositions and hearts of the students more than the mere teaching? — Con- sidering the number, and the short time that the professors could afford them, I do not think that they could make any marked change. 147. You know that the intercourse of young persons, as they are growing up, with Iversons more advanced in life, tends very much to theii’ improvement. If that could be effected at Ma3'nooth, would not 3'ou tliink it an advantage? — It would be, I think, impos- sible, for the reasons I have given for it, to have an3' important influence. 148. If the house could be further divided, might not it be done ? — Yes, and the pro- fessors multiplied considerably ; it would require both. 149. There are twenty professors, and more, in the house, are there not? — No ; there are twenty in all, between the President, Vice-President, and deans. The deans have con- siderable intercourse with the students. 150. The deans are the officers who, as it were, are responsible for the conduct of the students; they regulate their conduct? — Yes; the3" attend morning and night jn-ayers, conduct the students on the walks outside the College, are present in the refectoiy whilst the students are at meals, and also visit them occasionally in their rooms. 151. You think that the course suggested would be advisable, but that it would be impracticable in so large a college as Maynooth ? — Yes. 152. Are the deans the officers who ma3’’ be said to mould the minds of the students by their intercourse with them, by their control of their conduct, and b3^ in fact, maintaining the i^ersonal discipline of the individual ? — I would scarcely sa3’’ that their mere i)ersonal dealings with the students could be characterized as moulding them. I think they are rather moulded b3'^ the discipline itself, and they mould one another. 153. You have stated that the deans are the officers of the college who are responsible for tl'.e conduct of the students ? — Yes. 154. Is it the practice for the deans to select an3’^ of the elder students to act as monitors ? — Yes ; I tliink the deans suggest them, and the president approves. 155. "What is the business of the monitors? — The monitors have two chief duties, the one is, to see that the students be at morning pra3^er regular 13% and to return those that are absent. For that purpose, there are some twenty- four or thirty students committed to the charge of each monitor, the complement of three or four benches in the prayer hall. At the end of the prayers, the dean reads aloud the names of the monitors, when each ( / MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 0 .) C//t October, i8!)3. Rev. Henry Neville. Duties of the moni- tors. Monitors selected from the two senior classes. makes liis retimi publicly, stating that all undcf bis care are present, or in case of any person being absent without leave, mentioning bis name aloud. 150. Does the whole of their duty consist in observing the students in the prayer-hall? — No ; they are allotted fixed rooms in the house, one or two on each corridor, for the purpose of preventing in egnlarities during studj' hours, or reporting, should any occm\ It is their duty, also, to see that the candles of the students are extinguished at ten o’clock. But the most important duty of the monitors is this : — to each study-hall there are appointed one or two — generally two ; they have to observe the students, as to their times of coming in to study, continuing regularly at study, not going out before the study time closes ; not spealdng with one another in the hall, or doing anything to interrupt the studies ; and at the end of the year they are called upon by the deans to report of the students that have been under theii’ charge in the halls. This report has, of course, a great deal to do with the promotion to orders. 157. Are the monitors of each class selected from the class itself? — They are all selected from the two senior classes. 158. Ai'e the monitors in the junior departments selected from the senior . classes ? — Yes, they are generally the men in whom the superiors have most confidence that are sent to the junior departments. 159. Does not this business of the monitor interfere with the study of individual students, or is it so arranged as not to have that effect ? — The office of monitor inter- feres very little with the study of the individual, because he is sui^posed to be engaged him- self at the time that the other students are studymg ; and the supervision required from him cannot materially interfere with application. There are monitors, however, whose duties do interfere with their studies — namely, the infirinarian, and the two sacristans. The hall monitors merely preside. ICO. The infirinarian is appointed to keep general order in the infirmaiy ? — Yes ; and The infirmarian. if a student be suddenly attacked, so as to want a doctor or priest, he sees to it. IGl. Are the monitors authorized to go into the room of each student? — No, that is confined to the deans at present. 1C9. Are the rooms visited at regular times or chance times? — The deans are bound to visit each student’s room twice in a fortnight, and tliej^ are free to visit them at any other time that they wish. 1G3. That is agreeable to the Statute, is it not ? — Yes. 1G4. Are there any other practical rules in the College which are maintained, for the purpose of preserving order and disciphne ? — The rule of silence appears to be the chief provision for the preservation of order and discipline, and for preventing interruption in, or interference with, the studies of the students on the part of one another. 1G5. Are the rules of silence now the same as they were when you were a student ? — Yes. ICC. Are there any rules or regulations which are observed at the periods of recreation, in reference to the division of the students ? — None, except that, after dinner, the students meet in dioceses, and generally take their recreation thus. 1G7. Would it be considered a breach of rule if the subjects of one diocese mixed with the others at that period ? — To do this on one or twm occasions would not be noticed ; but if done frequently, or persevered in habitually, the student so acting would be reprimanded by the superior, and probably not promoted to orders at the end of the year. 108. The arrangement to which you have referred, of requiring the students to assemble together in dioceses, at certain periods of their recreation is calculated to prevent the for- mation of sets in the College, is it not ? — Yes, for that time. 1G9. Can you state wdiat the advantages of that arrangement are ? — I think one advan- tage in it is, that those persons who will have to spend their lives afterwards more together would be, as it were, forced into a closer connexion during their College course. This is the only advantage I can see in it. 170. Is there not this disadvantage, that a senior student may be, as it were, to a cer- tain extent, obliged to associate with a junior student, instead of with a senior student of his own class, with whom he would like to converse ? — He will have seniors and juniors of his own diocese to associate with, because each diocese has students spread over the whole course. He will have, probably, a class-fellow from his owm diocese ; at all events, there will be a fellow’-diocesan in the class under him, or in the class immediately below that. 171. Is not this rather calculated to prevent the formation of friendships based upon common intercourse in recreation ? — It can scarcely prevent them, for they have frequent opportunities of meeting and mixing together ; the only time at which this limitation holds, bemg after dinner. 172. The students are not allowed to have any intercourse with one another in their private rooms, are they ? — No. 173. Therefore, the only intercom’se that they can have, would be in the hours of recrea- tion ? — Yes ; after breakfast, after supper, five minutes before each class, a quarter of an hour before seven o’clock, in the evening, and some vacant time on Wednesdays, Satm’days, and Sundays, and during the walks on Wednesdays. 174. Those would be all open, common periods for friendly intercourse, without any rules or regulations ? — Yes. I 175. Practically friendships are formed at College which endure through life, are they j not? — Decidedly, in innumerable cases. Custom of associating with fellow-dioce- Extends only to after- dinner recreation. 56 MAYXOOin CO.AIMISSIOX. Ctlh Octoher, 1S53. 5. Eev. Henry Neville. Clioice of confessors. Effects of increased grant. Temporal power of the Pope or the Church. Interference of a priest ■with lus parishioners as to ■■ matters which he conceives may indi- rectly affect the good of the Church. 170. Are the professors brouglit into contact with the students in any other manner except in the class ? — A^es, through the confessional. Each professor has a certain number of students penitents of his. 177. How is the selection of a confessor made by the student? Is it optional, or is a certain confessor assigned by the Pj-esident to each student ? — The selection is optional with the student. At the commencement of the year the dean calls upon each student to name the confessor whom he would select for that year, and a list of the names thus taken is given to the professors. 178. So that each professor has that amount of spiritual charge of a certain number of the students ? — He has ; and this obviously requires considerable time and care. I remarked that the confessors are selected in tlie beginning of each year ; however, a student is at perfect liberty to change liis confessor as often as he tliinks tit, and in difficult cases, frequently has recourse to other confessors besides his own, to solve his doubt or difficulty. 17!). Do you consider that the increased resources of the College since 1815, have been of material advantage to the students generally ? — Decidedly. 180. And to the character and standing of the College ? — Decidedly. The chief physical advantages to the students are, that now, each student has a single room ; before, there were as many as five and six in each room, which must have been prejudicial to their health and comfort; at present they have distinct halls for study, and for lectures; formerly, they had to receive their lectures in the very same hall in Avhich thej" had been studying for hours previously. These are very great advantages. The new prayer-liall is also a great improvement on the former conditiem of tilings ; the former prayer-hall was too small for tlie number, and without an}' convenient arrangements for kneeling. 181. What doctrine is taught at Maynooth, respecting the civil or temporal imwer of the Pope or of the Church ? — Tlie opinion of the College, as far as I could learn, has always been, that no such power, direct or indirect, belongs to the Church, or to the Pope. I was taught this doctrine when a student, by Mr. Crolly, at present Professor of third year’s Theology; and since I became a professor, I never knew any one in the College to hold any other. 182. Do you give any special instructions to the priests relative to their duties, in the position in which it is likely they may be placed? — We give no special instructions; but in the course of moral theology there is one treatise, called “ De Obligationibus Statuum it sets forth the various duties arising out of the in’incipal mutual relations in which men may be placed, amongst which are, of course, found the duties of a parish priest towards his parishioners. 183. That will, of course, embrace their duty of preaching and catechizing ? — Every duty towards his parishioners. 18-1. Is the duty of loyalty to their Sovereign amongst those that would be impressed upon them ? — Not exactly there — that would not be the place for it ; but in another part of the same treatise, in the “ Obligationes subditorum erga Principem,” also in the treatise of laws, and in the question, “ De conditionibus Belli justi.” 185. Will you state what doctrine is taught as to the duty of a student when he becomes a priest, in case he should think that the conduct of a parishioner with regard to a temporal matter may have an indirect infiuence on the prosperity of the Church ? — I do not think that we enter specially into the case, as it is now proi>osed by the Commissioners, but I think that the principles by which it would be solved are sufficiently clearly conveyed in the parts of theology that are taught. In matters of clearly a spiritual nature, of course, obedience is due to the Church ; matters of clearly a temporal nature, are, on the other hand, obviously beyond the pale of its jurisdiction. The question, therefore, can only refer to matters temporal in themselves, but attended with results, favourable or unfavourable to religion ; now, I conceive, that the case, thus narrowed, can be most reasonably adjusted. If the matter be certainly attended with great good or great evil to religion, then the priest . should interfere by representing to the laity that line of conduct to wliicli tliey are bound independently of his interference; where, however, there is a reasonable doubt as to whetlier or not this line of conduct would be serviceable to tlie Church, I think it would Im very unadvisable to ])ermit interference to the priests, indiscriminately, each according to his own judgment, because, in addition to the probability of its being in many instances misused, it would be too great an onus on the laity to be subject to the infiuence of the priest in their temporal affairs, whenever he pleases to think that this interference tends to the good of the Church ; hence where there is merely a doubtful opinion, whether tlie tem- poral matter may result in good to religion or not, interference appears to me unlawful. 186. If the subject be doubtful, do not you think that every opinion upon it ouglit to be considered as doubtful ? — Does the question mean whether the spiritual authority extends to that subject. 187. No ; by the subject being doubtful, I mean a matter to which human knowledge can never extend : for instance, you cannot tell whether A B, as a matter of certainty, is in his heart a better man than C D, that is a matter of doubt? — I understand. Of course, if the nature of the subject matter be not determinable by human reason, every opinion directly regarding it must be doubtful. 188. A'ou used the word “indiscriminately;” what did you mean by that? — I meant, leaving eveiy priest, without distinction, to his own ojition in the matter. 189. To whose option should it be left? — I think, not to the option of any individual, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 57 but to the unanimous, or nearly unanimous consent of the more sensible, and best advised bishoi)s and priests In the particular church ; for, of course, we speak of questions of public moment. IDI). You mean that the priest should take advice in a matter of doubt from those whom he thought best competent to advise him ’? — I mean something more than that. I mean that when there is a real doubt whether the thing would be of that service to religion that he presumes it to be or not, and consecpientl}' whether it falls within his jjrovince or not — when this is really doubtful, because of very wise and prudent persons of his own Church holding the contrary — in such case, that since this interference involves a great onus on tlie laity he should not interfere. There is a distinction not usually made in this matter, and the omission of which leads to a great deal of misunderstanding, namel}’, not distinguishing between power and inlluence. We hold, of course, as I said, that the Pope has no temporal }>ower, direct or indirect : indeed that, I may saj% is the universally prevailing opinion at present ; for, as is stated in Bouvier’s Church Treatise on this question, the opinion of the Pope’s temporal power, even indirect, is not held as a practical opinion at present; it is a power he could not now practically exercise. Indeed, one of the reasons why it was maintained, and the strongest reason, too, was, that a certain condition on which princes in tliose times when that power was attempted to bo exercised, held their kingdoms, was allegiance to the Holy See; that condition not existing anywhei’e now, as it were, an essential requisite for the exercise of the power is removed. However, though we admit that the Pope has no temporal power, direct or indirect, still it is plain to eveiy one that every priest, every bisho}), and the l*ope, above all, have great influence — every man of respectability has inlluence, every man of education has influence, every priest has inlluence, and it too often happens that the priest is looked upon as exercising a power, when he is only using his influence. IfJl. Should he use his influence in such a manner as to 3uake it clear to the laity that it was his influence, and not his power, that he was exercising? — Certainly, because power is coercive : the being subject to inlluence rests with the parties themselves. l!)2. Do you think that a priest, sneaking from the altar, or in his sacerdotal robes, upon tenq)oral matters, would lead the uninstructed to suppose that he was exercising his power, where, in fact, he was only attempting to exercise his influence ? — I think that, unless the priest by his manner or by his language communicated the contraiy, he would be apt to leave them in that error. 10:}. If, in any instances in Ireland priests have interfered improperly and authorita- tively in temporal matters, that was not owing to the principles they would have received at Maj'uooth, but must be attributable to other local or personal causes? — Yes; such con- duct was directly contrary to the principles which were inevdeated in them at Maynooth. I may add, that persons who have examined the matter statistically find, that of the priests who have interfered rather prominently, and, perhaps, unwarrantably in politics, the average majority were not educated at Maynooth. 194. Are you able to state that fact of your own knowledge ? — I am able to state that fact from having, with one or two others, gone roughly over the list of the priests who were interfering in politics of late years. [TV/fc withdrew?^ Friday, 7th October, 1853. The Rev. Charles William Ihissell, d.d., examined. 1. You are Professor of Ecclesiastical History in the College of Maynooth ?— \es. 2. In the account which 3 ’ou have furnished to the Commissioners, of the studies in ecclesiastical history, j'ou have enumerated certain volumes which the students use. In what way do the students obtain access to such volumes ? — I have stated that I have the charge of two classes — a senior and a junior class. All the students of the senior class have access to the College libraiy. But in the junior class, which consists of the students of the first year’s theology, and the students of natural jihilosophy, the former only have access to the library ; the others are obliged to provide for themselves, or to find among their friends, whatever books they may use in the studies connected with mj’' class. 3. That is a practical inconvenience, is it not ? — Yes. 4. "What would you suggest as a remedy for that inconvenience ? — One of two courses. Either that the students in natural philosophy should have access to the general library, or (which, perhaps, would be better for my purpose, and would interfere less with the general arrangements of the College) that a special library, suitable for my department, should be provided for the use of tire entire class. 5. Such a library as would be suitable for the junior classes generally ? — Yes ; hut which would contain a special provision for the studies of m}*^ class. '_6. At present the students must either purchase books themselves, or apply to their friends, or labour under a deficiencj' of information upon dift'erent points ? — Yes ; about seventy of my pupils are in that position ; from seventy to eighty, and sometimes nearly ninety. 7. Do you find that anj' inconvenience arises from the number of students who attend j'our class ? — They are too numerous for frequent catechetical examination, but not too numerous to receive instruction by lectures. i 6lh October, 185;!. Rev. Henry Neville. Distinction between power ami intluence. Any improper inter- ference on tlie part of the clergy directly contrary to principles inculcated at Maynooth. 7lh October, 1853. 6 . Rev. Charles 'William Russell, D.D. Ecclesiasticalllistorj' Classes. Limited access of the students to books. Suggestion of special library for these classes. 58 MAYNOOTH COMmSSIO^^, Kh Oi'toher^ 6 . Ivev. CliiU'lesWilliara IvUSSell, D.D. Supply of books. Ijcctures in ecclesi- astical liistory. Authors. Jleason for avrangc- iiient of lectures. 8. But, perhaps, too numerous for you to be able to test -with sufficient accuracy as you go along, the attention which they are giving to their studies ? — Greater accuracy in this respect would, of course, be desirable, if it Avere compatible with other objects; but I think it of so much importance, that the whole, or as many as possible of the theological students, should attend lectures upon ecclesiastical history, that the inconvenience which arises from my not being able to test their relative merits as accurately as those of a more limited class, is counterbalanced, in my opinion, by the advantage of having a larger number engaged in a study of so much moment, both in itself, and as a means for the formation of their literary tastes. y. Can you give a rough guess as to what proportion of your students purchase Alzog ? — I should say, almost all. 10. And what proportion do }mu think purchase Receveur ? — I have no means of testing that accurately, because a great many persons may use the same book ; but I should say that a large proportion of them use that book. 1 1. Do they bring those books into the lectures ? — Yes ; but, of course, in answering, they are obliged to close them. At othei’ times, however, tliey are iiermitted to open and use them during the lectures. I impose, in this respect, no restriction whatever. 12. Ydien you say that neither the students nor tlie pi'ofessors are obUged to follow implicitly the opinion of these authors upon most jioints, I presume you express your opinion freel}' ? — Yes ; freely, within the limits of faith, and of sound historical criticism. I mean to say, that by adopting Alzog as a text- book, or by recommending Receveur, or any other author to the class to be used in private studj'^, I do not tie up either my own libert}' of judgment or that of my pupils. I do not always myself follow, or hold the students bound to follow, the opinions contamed in the books which I have recommended to them. On the contrary, I dilfer freely in opinion from each and every one of them, as occasion arises. 18. What is the text-book of the junior class ? — It is Alzog. 11. You have enumerated in your written answers the books employed generally by the students in ecclesiastical history. Do you yourself emplo}" other books for the juirpose of preparing your lectures, and do you refer to them ? — I compile the information for my lectures from a great variet}" of sources. First (chiefly, however, in the way of reference), from the original authorities ; as the Apostolic Fathers ; the early ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius, Socrates, Sozomen, and Theodoret ; the Byzantine Historians ; Hardouin’s “ Collectio Conciliorum the “ Bullarium Romanum the “ Acta Sanctorum,” &c. Secondly, from the standard Catholic historians of the various schools ; as, in the Ultramontane school, Baronins, (with his continuators), Orsi, Saccarelli, Berti, Zaccaria, Palma, Salzano, and the recent French historian, Abbe Rohrbacher; — in the Gallican school, Fleury (with the continuation by the Carmelite, Alexander a S. Johanne de Cruce), Tillemont, Natalis Alexander (with the notes of Mansi and Roncaglia), Berault-Bercastel,- and, for literary questions, Ceillier, Gudin, or Dupin ; — in the German school, Dbllinger, Katerkamp, Rauscher, Ruttenstock, Alber, and Klein. As a Protestant authority, I habitually use Mosheim (Soames’s edition); but, on all important subjects, I refer to some leading writer in each of the communions, as Schrbckh, Schlegel, or N eander, for the Luthe- ran view; Foulkes’ Manual, or Colliei’, for the Anglican; Milner or Waddington, for that of the Evangelicals; and Henke, or Gieseler, for that of the Rationalists. Tliirdly, on the subject of church antiquities, my ordinary authority is Selvagi ; but I consult, in addition, Mart^ne, Thomassin, Pellicia, Binterim’s “ Denkwiirdigkeiten ;” and on the Protestant side, Bingham or Guericke’s Manual. Fourthly, I am frequently obliged to consult (in addition to these general histories of the Universal Church) the special histories of the seve- ral countries. I need scarcely add, however, that most of these authorities are employed as works of reference in particular difficulties, and not as books for constant use. 15. Is there any text-book in the senior class ? — No ; the students make notes of the lecture. But I also refer them, for private study, to the works which I may deem best on the subject of each course. 16. The students in ecclesiastical history attend your lectures during a period of five years ? — Yes. 1 7. So that they go through an extremely comi)rehensive course on ecclesiastical history ? — Yes ; it is not, howmver, so very comprehensive as might appear at first sight ; for, during three out these five years, they attend but one lecture each week, and only two each week during the remaining trvo years. 18. Are you of opinion that this is the best arrangement that can be made, looking to the number of students in your class ; or, in other words, do you think it desirable that all of them should attend, say for the whole five years, or, on the other hand, that they should attend lectures for a shorter period, say three or four years for the course, so that the classes might be a little reduced in number ? — It might be so, if a different arrangement of lectures were adopted ; but as the lectures are now' distributed, I prefer tlie present i)lan. It was thought extremely desirable that, during the entire time wdiile the students are engaged in theological studies, their attention should, in a greater or less degree, be directed to w'hat is a most important branch of theological study — namely, the history of the doctrine and the discipline of the Church. It wms arranged, however, that the number of lectures wdiich they should attend during those five years should not be so great as materially to interfere with the attention which is necessary for their more directly professional studies. As I have already said, during the first twm of those years they have but tw'o lectures, and, during the last three, only' one lecture each w'eek. ^IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 59 ]9. Is there not found soino practical inconvenience in tlie present arrangement? You have stated tliat your junior class consists of tlie junior theologians, and the natural philosophy class, and that the senior class consists of the three classes of theologians ? — The three senior classes of theologians. 20. If 1 understand the system of the College correctly, the student, at the end of each year passes into the upper class ; consequently, supposing you have commenced your lectures this year, with a course of history for the junior class, and another course of his- tory for the senior class, at the end of the lirst year, the upper part of your class will pass out of the junior class into the senior class, consequently, it must take up the lecture upon ecclesiastical history, where it finds it. Does not that cause a considerable gap in the study of history, or how do you meet that difficulty ? — 1 have explained in my written answers, that the course of the junior class is quite independent of that in the senior class ; the former being on the history of the Church, in chronological order, the latter being a series of lectures on certain more imi)ortant subjects or periods which it is necessary to treat more in detail. The students attend the former course for two }^ears, with two lectures in the week ; they attend the latter for three years, with one lecture each week. Now, as regards the junior class, since it is clearly impossible that in two years, at the rate of two lectures per week, the}' could satisfactorily go through, in chronological order, the entire of the history of the Church, the arrangement which I have adopted is this: — I have divided the history of the Churcli into four periods ; the first from the birth of Christ to the sixth century; the second, from the sixth to the fifteenth; the third, to the end of the sixteenth; and the fourth, to the present time. AVith the first class of which I had the management, I, of course, began with the lirst century ; and, following the chronological order, I found that in four years I was able to go through the entire history of the Church. Each student, however, only attended the lectures during two of those years ; so that, practically, each student only went through two of the periods described above, or one half of the history of the Church. But I think it much better foi' them to read one half carefully, than to read the whole superficially. So far for the junior class. In the senior class, the difficulty contemplated by the question cannot possibly arise ; because in that class, without attempt- ing to follow the chronological order, I take every year a distinct subject or period, on which I deliver a regular connected course, which begins in that year, and terminates in that year ; — each course being quite independent of what has been taught in the previous year, or what will be taught in the following year, and all being intended to furnish a supple- ment for those subjects which could not well be treated fully in the chronological course. The system of the junior class, however, is certainly liable to the objection which is pro- posed in the question ; but although according to that system, one portion of the students must begin with the history of one of the four periods into which the course is distributed, and another with an entirely different period, yet, to repeat w'hat I have already stated, as I believe it impossible that they coTdd go satisfactorily through the entire history of the Church in the space of two years, I consider it better to limit the course, in order that the portion which they do read, they may read minutely, and in detail: and I tliink it of great importance, that, by the way in which they read it, their tastes for historical inquiry should be so formed, as that in their after studies during life, and even in their private studies in College, they may ffnd it easy to complete, by their own research, what they have begun in the History Class. 21. In your junior class, therefore, there is an annual change in half of the students ?— There is. 22. How do you divide the subject of your lecture for the lower class, so as to meet this change, and so make certain that each of these annual divisions shall go through the course in your lower class ? — I do not attempt to divide it so that each of the annual divisions shall go through the entire course. In each successive year, I resume the history at the point at which the studies of the class in the former year had terminated. 23. Your arrangement secures that every student shall, in the five years, go through the entire course ? — It does not. 24. Can any student go through the whole by your course ? — No student can go through the W’hole in chronological order, nor do I know any college where this is attempted, except in a w'ay so superticial as to be of little value for theological students. 25. That is not caused by your arrangement, but because the, course cannot be reason- ably got through in five years ?■ — Yes ; I believe it to be impossible, supposing the students I to attend but two lectures per week for two years, and one per week during the remaining three, making, in all, about two hundred and fifty lectures. 26. Then the difficulty which you allude to is a difficulty with regard to the time allotted for ecclesiastical history ? — It is ; but considering the other studies of the College, it is ' difficult to require a larger appoi'tionment of time. 27. Within what period of time do yoii consider that a coiu’se w'hich you w'ould hold to be a proper course of ecclesiastical history, might be gone through ? — I think the whole course of ecclesiastical history might be fairly gone through in five years. 28. AVith the number of lectures which you have the power to give ? — AVith two lectures each week. ' 29. You have not two lectures, have you ? — I have two lectures per week for the junior class, but only one for the senior. 30. If you gave two lectures to each, you could get through the whole in the five years ? — I think I could. 31. In that case, every student would have passed tln-ough the wdiole course? — Yes; however, even in that case, all would not begin at the first century, some would commence i 2 7th October, 185.-5. Kev. Charles William Kussell, D.D. Arrangement of courses of study in ecclesiastical history classes. Difference of method in teaching junioraiul senior classes. Entire course of ecclesiastical history cannot be gone through by the students under the present arrangement GO MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. 'iih October, 1S53. 6 . Kev. Charles William llussell, u.i>. Combination of Lofjicand riulosophy Classes. Suggestion of re- leasing Philosophy Class from ecclesi- astical history, and enlarging the time for that study during divinity years. Biennial course of study. Advantages of present method of teaching senior class. Publication of text- books. Of text-hooks of Church liistory. at tlie first, some at tlie sixth, others at the fifteenth century ; still the}' tvoulcl all have gone through the entire course. But I have already said that I do not consider tfiis a serious inconvenience ; and, on the other hand, I see many advantages in the system of connected lectures upon particular subjects taken out of the chronological order. B2. There would be one inconvenience in the present arrangement of the annual classes, would there not — that some w'ould commence the study at an earlier period, say at the proper period, and others w'ould have to take up tlie study at a later jieriod, and then go back to an earlier one ? — Yes, that inconvenience would still subsist ; it is inherent in the system, and cannot possibly be avoided, unless the students of each year be taught sepa- rately. Wherever tlie students of diftereiit years are united in one class, it is impossible to escape that inconvenience. 33. But they can supply that deficiency by private reading, can they not ? — Yes, and it is intended that they shall do so. 3t. It has occurred to the Commissioners that the arrangement of the studies in the junior department will admit of an alteration or modification, which might be advantageous to the students there, namely, that the studies in natural iihilosophy, and in mental philo- sophy, might be conducted b}' the side of each other during the period of two years. Do you consider that that would be a more advantageous course for the students, looking to the comprehensive course of studies in the two departments ? — I think it would, umpies- tionably, have some advantages, if the time were judiciously distributed. 35. You think, in such a case, that the Natural Philosophy Class, as at present consti- tuted might be released from attendance upon the lectures on ecclesiastical history, with advantage, generally speaking, to them, seeing thatthey would have a larger course of study in mental philosophy? — I tliink, that if any increase of study in their- own peculiar department were contemplated, it would be almost necessary that they should be released from the study of ecclesiastical history. But if the time devoted to the study of ecclesiastical history, during the four years’ theology were somewhat increased (provided this could be done consistently with the requirements of the Scripture Class), all the advantages of the present system might be secured. The students of natural philosophy were assigned to the Church History Class in the first instance, chiefly because on Wednesday and Saturday they had no class to attend i)reviously, and it was considered that this undis- posed time might be w-ell employed in a study which was felt to be a useful preparation for theology. 36. It has been suggested that the iqqier department might, with advantage, be divided into a senior and junior branch, so as to allow of a biennial course of study, rather than an annual course ? — Yes, I have heard that suggestion made. 87. Do you think that, in your department of Ecclesiastical History, such an alteration might be made w-ith advantage to the students ? — It might be made, at all events, without any disadvantage ; and I dare say that it could be made a means of advantage to the study of liistory ; but I am not so sure that it might not clash with the arrangements for the Scripture Class. 38. Are you not inclined to think, upon consideration, looking at the study over which i you preside, it being one w-hich involves chronological order, that an arrangement of that sort will enable you to conduct the students througli a longer course of study with a ^ better arrangement in reference to its chronological order? — I still think, as I have already j said, that there are some advantages in the present plan; as it enables me, without i attempting to conduct the whole class through the entire course of the history of the Church, to treat certain especially important periods in a more extended and a more | careful way. I am of opinion, therefore, that there has been some advantage in the plan ; by which the three senior classes, hitherto, instead of following the chronological order, have had lectures upon particular periods, unconnected with one another, and taken out of chronological order. However, this could still be done under the arrangement Avliich ; the question contemplates, just as well. Or, on the other hand, if that were thought more desirable, the whole body of tlie students could be conducted through the History of the Church in chronological order. The plan proposed would be perfectly compatible with either one or the other system. j 39. Do any of the Dunboyne students attend your class ? — No ; they have lectures of ! their own in ecclesiastical history, delivered by their Prefect. 49. You think it of advantage to the mind of the student not to be confined exclusively, j year after year, to sejiarate topics successively, but to be carrying on studies together during that period ? — Unless the topics be excessively multiplied, they may be pursued ! simultaneously with advantage. i 41. Would it be desirable or practicable that the professors should publish text-books | on their several departments ? — There are some departments on which I think it would be desirable that the professors should publish text-books. 42. Do you see any objection to that course of the professors publisliing text-books ? — ■ | None whatever. 43. There would be no difficulty in preparing a manual for your department? — The difficulty would be, to combine the solidity and minute accuracy of a student’s hand-book with the attractiveness of a popular history. _ _ ; 44. Would it be practicable in your department? — I have always desired the publication of a text-book of Church histoi-}'. 45. Would such a text-book be a mere recital of topics, or an expression of opinion upon the topics as they arose ? — In order to be really useful, it should, as far as possible, he an expression of opinion on the topics that should arise. :\IIXUTES OF EVIDF.XCE. Cl •10. Do you tliiiik it would be a considorable advantage to young men, wlien they went out into their parishes, to liave with tlieni, for referenee, an authoritative record of the studies which they had i>ursued in tlie College ? — Of course it would. -17. Are there inconveniences at jiresent arising from the ahsence of hooks adapted to the circumstances of the country in which the students hereafter find themselves? — There are many points on which such inconvenience arises. I would instance, jan'ticularly, the treatises On Justice and On Contracts, in the theological course. On those subjects, I con- sider it a matter of great importance that a text-hook should he published, applying the abstract theological itrinciples in a form accommodated to the laws of this country. 4H. Are the hooks which they are obliged to have recourse to on such subjects often entangled and embarrassed witli a reference to the customs, and habits, and laws of other countries, which it may he ditllcult, perhaps, for the students to extricate themselves from? — They are fre(piently so entangled, by references to French, Italian, and German laws and customs. 'I'hey contain no reference to the laws of our own country ; conse- (piently the students have no real assistance, except what they derive from the lectures of the professors, or their own reference to lllackstone, or other authorities upon legal subjects. 49. Your professorship, you stated, was founded in June, 1845 ? — Yes. 50. You were the first professor? — Yes. 51. There is no mention of your professorship in the Statutes? — No. 52. Are there any regulations respecting the duties of your professorship? — None embodied in the Statutes. 50. IIow is the professorship regulated? — It was regulated by an arrangement pro- posed to the Board of Trustees when I first commenced my duties, and approved of by them. 54. Your professorship was instituted, the Commissioners understand, to carry out the provisions of the 8th and 9th of ATctoria, chapter 25, as to the increase in the number of professors ? — It was. 55. Have any other professorsliips been instituted since that Statute, and in accordance witli that Statute? — An additional Professorship in Theology was instituted in accordance with that Statute. 50. Are you a member of the Council of the College? — I am not. 57. But you lecture the whole of the senior members, exclusive of the Dunhoyne stu- dents ? — I do. 58. Do you think it desirable that the professorial body should be admitted more dis- tinctly into the Council upon any of the changes that may take place in the regulations of the College ? — With respect to any changes that may take place in connexion with the studies of the College, I consider it of great importance that the professors, who are prin- cipally charged with the care of the studies, should be admitted into the Council. 59. It appears from the Statutes that the selection of the Dunhoyne students is confined to the President and the members of his Council ? — Yes. ()0. Do you consider that the departments which are not represented in the Council are, on that account, less estimated in the elections for the Dunhoyne students ? — As a matter of course, they are. There is no reference to jn-oficiency in ecclesiastical history in the question of the election of a Dunhoyne student. Gl. Do you think that that has a tendency to diminish the ardour with which the studies are pursued in those departments which are not thus represented ? — Unquestionabl}^ it has that tendency. G2. You consider that the department of ecclesiastical history is a very important one to those who are pursuing theological studies ? — Yes ; and I think it of especial importance to those who, like the Dunhoyne students, will have a greater amount of literary leisure and opportunity of improvement than the generality of the students ; I consider that this department is of special importance to them. G3. Those lectures are conducted in English, are they not ? — Yes, they are. G4. Therefore they are of great advantage in enlarging the literary qualifications of the student ? — Certainly, they have that advantage. G5. There are only two deans contemplated by the original Statute, a senior and junior ? — Only two. GG. There are at present three junior deans ? — Yes three junior and one senior dean. The number of students has very much increased. G7. Is there any Statute respecting either of the junior deans? — There is no special Statute regarding any one of them in particular, but the Statute which applies to the deans has been altered, so as to admit of being applied to a greater number than one. 08. Are you aware for what reasons no Statute has been made in reference to jmur own professorship ? — I dare say the reason is, that, although it was proposed some years since, the Statutes have not been remodelled since the establishment of the professorship. ()9. On what footing does your professorshiji stand ? — It has been formally established by the Trustees, with the consent of the Lord Lieutenant ; but nothing regarding it has been embodied in the code of Statutes. 70. You state that the immber of premiums is inadequate to stimulate the emulation of the pupils as you would desire ? — In my opinion it is quite inadequate. 71. AVhat is the nature of the i^remiums at present distributed in your class? — They consist of books. 72. Of what natiu’e, and how are they selected ? — They are selected by the President and Bursar. Generally speaking, they are connected with the studies of the class. 7th October, 185.3. 6 . Rev. Charles William Russell, i).D. Importance of having College tc.\t-l)ooks. Ponndation of pro- fessorship of Church history. Suggested ch.ange in the constitution of the Council. Operation of present constitution to render the branches of study not repre- sented in the Council less estimated in the election of Dunhoyne students. No Statute as to chair of ecclesiastical history. Rremiiims. MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Ith OcLdbcr, 185o. 6 . Rev. Charles William Russell, D.u. Defects in literary education of students Remedy by raising standard at entrance. Greek. Other studies during divinity years. Advantage of com- bining lighter studies Orthography, C;2 73. Do not you think it desirable that the professor of every class should have a hand in the selection of prizes appropriate to his own class ? — Most desirable. 71. At present what is the value of the premiums so employed? — I cannot imdertaketo say jtrecisely. 75. But you think they are not of the value or of the nature that you would think, yourself, quite desii’able? — No; neither of the value nor the number that I would myself desire. 7(1. Are the students ever i)ermitted to choose a book for themselves? — Asa general rule the books are tixed ; but there are certain kinds of books, out of which the students are allowed to make a selection. If it should happen, too, that a student has, at some former distribution of premiums, got a particular book, which may chance to be assigned as a premium to him in a subsequent year, he is, of com'se, at liberty to return such book, and ask for another of the same value. 77. Do you consider that the literary character and the literary education of the stu- dent is, on the whole, sufficiently provided for ? — I do not. 7 8. Does that arise in any, or what degree, from want of proper education ? — It arises, in a great degree, from a want of proper education. Veiy many of the students, at entrance — althuugh there are many very striking exceptions, too — have not received that degree of preparatory education — especially in the English language, in history, in geo- graphy, &c. — which would enable them to benefit to the full extent by the lectures which they afterwards receive in the College. 79. Could you remedy that, in some degree, by raising the standard of the literary acquire- ments on admission to the College ? — I think it might be done, and ought to be done. 80. And partially by increased study and practice in the English language during the course? — I think that, also, most desirable. After the students have left the Logic Class — I may say, after they have left the Rhetoric Class — there is no direct provision in the College course for their literary education. It might be practicable to stimulate their industry by annual jirize essays in each class. 81. Do you conceive that it would be desirable to take better security for a continued acquaintance with the Greek language ; for instance, after the Rhetoric Class has been quitted ? — I think that also most desirable, particularly in connexion with the studies of the Scripture Class. 82. Or the Greek Fathers ? — The necessity for familiarity with the Greek is felt most directly in connexion with the studies of the Scripture Class and that of ecclesiastical his- tory. But. of course, the study of theology must necessarily imply, or ought to be made to imply, a constant reference to the works of the Greek Fathers. 83. Do you conceive it desirable that, for four years, young men should have no intel- lectual exercitation, except in the department of theology delivered in Latin ? — So far from this, I am convinced that even the theological studies might be made more agree- able and useful, if the students’ attention Avere also, in a minor degree, directed to other lighter studies : I mean studies connected, at the same time, with the general objects of their education. 84. In what language do you deliver your lectures ? — In English. 85. You have stated that the candidates at entrance are not examined in English com- position ? — They are not. 80. Are they not reipiired to translate any books into English in writing ? — No ; no translation in writing is required. 87. There is no test applied to them as to their knowledge of speUing Enghsh ? — None whatever. 88. What means are pursued in the College to secure a sufficient knoAvledge of exact orthography in English ? — In the English Class the students are required to deliver in, at frequent stated intervals, Avritten essays, and the orthography of these essays, of course, is subject to the inspection and correction of the professor. 89. Do you ever propose to your class questions to be ansAvered in writing? — I do. 90. And to be ansAvered in English ? — Yes ; the occasions on aaIucIi I propose those questions are these : — In the junior class, once each year, a subject is proposed on Avhich the entire class Avrite for an hour and a-half ; and also, at the close of the year, a subject is proposed, on Avhich a select number, not exceeding one-fourth of the class, are required to Avrite for tAVO hours. In the senior class there are three such compositions each j^ear. 91. Is it the fact that the orthography in those exercises is creditable to the students ? — Very many of the students, of course, are in this respect entirely be 3 ’ond exception. Of the great bodv, I maA’ sa}' that their orthography is sufficiently satisfactory ; but I am obliged to acknowledge that there are some cases in every class in Avhich it is very defective. 92. Y’ou have mentioned the period of time during Avhich they are employed in com- position, what is the ordinary length of such a composition ? — The length of the composi- tion varies exceedingly — in some cases it may not exceed one page of ordinary letter paper ; in others it is much more ; strange as it maj’ airpear, I received, in one instance, as manj’’ as twenty pages, AATitteir Avithin tAvo hours. 93. I suppose it Avould vary a little Avith the nature of the subject as to the amount of thought and consideration requii’ed ? — Yes ; but the }’Outh to Avhom I refer was not only a read}’, but a most correct Avriter. 94. Can you, fronr j^our observation, saj’ whether the shorter compositions have generally been accompanied Avith inaccurate spelling ? — I have observed that, generallA’ speaking, the shortest compositions are those which are most defective. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 63 7lh Odnhcr, Kev, Oiarles William J{USSl.-ll, D.U. Language used in Logie and Theology Classes. Subst'itTition of English for Latin in teaching logic. Course of study in Maynootli as com- pared witli that in foreign Colleges. 05. So tliat, in fact, the difficulty of writing the English language correctly has been a practical difficulty in expressing their tlioughts? — 1 ascribe it partly to that difllculty; but I take the chief reason to be that the person who gives in a shorter composition is more de- ficient, not only in talent and immediate preparation, but, probably, also in early education. !)(). You do not conceive that the teaching of correct orthography is the business of the College, but that such preliminary instruction ought to be completed in their previous education? — Not only do I think it not the business of the College, but I consider it a business which it is impossible that any large College could satisfactorily discharge. It can only be effected by individual training. 1)7. Do you think it desirable that the lectures and examinations in logic, ethics, and theology should be exclusively confined to the Latin language ? — That is a subject on which I have not thoroughly made up my mind ; but 1 think there are some parts of these courses which might be taught with more advantage in English than in Latin. Confining the question to the class of logic and metaphysics, I think that the study of logic might be conducted with advantage in English : it would be easier to present to the student, in English, intelligible illustrations of the rules of propositions and syllogisms. In meta- physics, I am not so certain that it would not be better to adhere to the present plan, particularly as preparatory for the study of theology, which I am quite satisfied should be conducted in Latin. 98. Are you acejuainted with the system of preparation in the Petits Seminaires in Petits Seminairc.' France? — Not in detail. When I alluded to the Petits Seminaires as a model which might be adopted by our bishops, I looked rather to the object for which the Petits Seminaires are intended, than the details of the manner in which they are conducted. 99. Are you ac(|uainted with any of the foreign seminaries of education generally? — I am somewhat acquainted with the Collegio Romano and the Collegio di Sant’ Apollinari in Rome. 100. Is the College of Maynootli more or less extensive than those of Rome ? — As to the number of students, it is much more extensive. 101. Is it more or less extensive as to the course of stud}' ? — The curriculum in theology is at present very much the same in all these colleges, although the treatises are different. 103. Is it arranged pretty much in the same order? — It is arranged substantially in the very same order, with the exception of the course of one year, which is called “The Philosophy of Religion,” and which, at Rome, is prefixed to the study of theology. At Rome, however, the instruction is chiefiy by prelections ; there is much less catechetical teaching than at Maynootli. 100. Should you say, generally, by a comparison of the Colleges at Rome with that at Maynootli, that as much attention to the literary character of the students was given at Maynootli as at Rome ? — I think that, as regards modern literature, it is very much the same. As to classical studies, the Roman Latinity is much suiierior to ours ; but Greek is comparatively little cultivated by the generality of ecclesiastical students in Rome. 101. You have stated that it was once proposed to make the presentation of certificates of certain Colleges a title to the same status in the College of Maynootli, did you refer to any definite Colleges ? — The College to which I referred in my answer was the College of Carlow. Such a proposal was made many years since, by Dr. Doyle. 105. Do you think that there is any advantage, or otherwise, in the young men pursuing the whole of their studies, from beginning to end, in the same College ? — Supposing the studies of that college to be arranged on a liberal and well digested plan, I think it has most decided advantages. 106. Of course the studies at Carlow are cast very much in the same mould as that in College of Carlow, which the Ma}mooth studies have been formed ? — Very much the same. 107. Are you at all practically acquainted with the proficiency of the students who come up from Carlow College to Maynootli — have they come under your observation at all ? — They have. 108. Are yon disposed to say, from your observation of them, that the knowledge of English grammar is carefully provided for in the preparatory education at Carlow? — From my knowledge of the students who come from Carlow, I should say that, in general, this part of their education is very carefully attended to. 109. Are you aware wdiether or not, upon entrance to the College of Carlow, the know- ledge of English gi'ammar is tested by examinations conducted in writing, as well as viva voce — I cannot speak positively. In Carlow, I should observe, there are two distinct colleges ; one is a lay college or school, affiliated to the London University ; and the other is an ecclesiastical college ; and it very often happens that ecclesiastics who are educated at Carlow have also passed through the schools of the lay college, which, as I have fre- quently taken part in their examinations, I know to be extremely well conducted. 110. It is stated in the programme for admission to the class of logic at Carlow, that “ an accurate knowledge of English grammar is required, and this knowdedge will be spe- cially tested by examinations which are conducted in writing as well as viva voce” Are you aware wdiether that provision of the programme is observed at Carlow ? — I am not aware, as a matter of fact, whether it is or not ; but as I know that the Carlow students generally come to us very well jirepared in this department, I presume that it is observed. 111. Do you conceive, if it w'ere once generally known that strict inquiry w’ould be made on these points, previously to entering, that adequate care would very soon be taken in the preparatory schools all over Ireland to effect an improvement in these respects ? — I have no doubt that this knowdedge would produce a very beneficial effect in a short time. 64 MAYNOOTII COMMISSIOX. ~lh Oiiohcr, 18.^n. Eev. Cliarics William Ivussell, D.i). l?ccrcatioii in May- nootli. Nine liours a clay allotted for study. Beneficial effects of the late alterations. Elevation of habits and tone of mind. Inadequate chapel accommodation. Proposed further division of the College. 112. Is it the fact that the students at Carlow College come from a more restricted range of country than the students at Maynooth ? — They are, for the most part, natives of a single diocese — that of Kildare : those at Maynooth, of every diocese in Ireland. 113. And from a ■wealthier country, I imagine? — Kildare is one of our wealthiest counties. 114. Do you think that more time could be allowed to the students for recreation, without prejudice to their literary and theological studies? — Never having directed my attention to the subject, I am not prepared to offer an opinion. 115. Are not the hours of study reejuired in Maynooth, per day, gTeater than almost in anj" other college that you are acfjuainted with ? — I do not think that they are ; but I speak without exact information. 116. Do 3 'ou perceive that the hours of study seem to press heavily ui)on the constitu- tions of the students? — There is one usage, certainh', which I think might very well be altered. For a part of the year — from Easter until the end of the academical year — the stu- dents rise at five o’clock. The studies of that part of tlie year, I certainly think, are found very oppressive, and particularly by the j'ounger students. 117. Nine hours a dav' are allotted, are they not, for study in Maynooth? — Yes, including the two hours of lecture. Oi j/n'rate .stiidi/ there is certainly a greater amount in our College than there is in the colleges in Home; there is there a greater amount of attcvdunce at lacture!^, but the time for recreation I believe to be very much the same. 118. You were a student at Maynootli, w^ere v'ou not? — -YTs. 119. Do you conceive that the late alterations have been of great im])ortance, not merely to the inaterial comfort of the students, but to their general condition ? — 1 think they have been already felt to be of great importance. 120. The importance of wliich will be felt in future, as well as at present, with regard to their convenience ajid accommodation ? — I am sure it will. 121. Do you conceive that the improvements are of great value to the formation of the future character of the students ? — I think they are. They are now enabled to pui'chase many useful and improving books, wdiich formerly w’ere beyond their reacli. 122. Do they tend to raise the tone of the 3 'oung men? — That has certainl}' been the eftect; and I am sure it will be still more so hereafter. 123. More especially, considering tlie humble condition in life from which many of them come, from the remoter parts of the country ? — Certainly, for these the advantage whicli I have described is of more imi:)ortance than for those who have come from a liigher and more opulent class. 124. Have _you perceived an}" change at all, one way or another, with respect to the classes from which the students have come, within your experience of Maynooth ? — I cannot say that I have perceived any change 125. Do they come from a higher or a low'er class? — The proportions in this particular seem to be quite such as they were before. 126. Are you satisfied that the prevailing habits and tone of mind of the students in the College of IMaynooth at })resent are more elevated than they were when you were a student? — I think they are; the students enter at an earlier age ; they derive more benefit from the training in College, and acquire more information on general subjects. 127. Have you reason to think that, amongst other causes, the improved system of the College, resulting from the increased grant, has contributed to that improvement ? — In conjunction with other causes, it has certainly contributed to that result, and especially in the way which I have described. 128. In other words, do you consider that the increased grant, looking to the increased comfort which is afforded to the young men, and their release from some menial services, has tended to improve their tastes and general habits of thought ? — I think tliis change of circumstances has contributed to that efiect. At the same time, w’e can scarcely say, as yet, that the full benefit has been derived from the increased endow'inent; because, during the interval since 1845, the College has been, and iqi to this time is, in what I may call a state of transition ; nor do I anticipate, until the buildings shall have been quite com- pleted — particularly until sufficient chapel accommodation shall have been provided — that the full benefit of the endowment can be felt. 129. Might not something be done to lessen the inconvenience of the ■want of sufficient accommodation in the chapel, by making the prayer-halls into chapels ? — Certainly, so far as the private devotional exercises are concerned, that might be done, but not as regards the public offices of the Church. 130. In fact, the prayer-halls are occasionally used as halls for examination? — One of them is so used ; and, besides, there are rooms over it. 131. I’or what you may call secular puiqroses? — Y"es. 132. Do the professors in the College consider themselves in any ■R'ay charged with the discipline of the students ? — No ; except in their respective classes. 133. Except in class, there is very little communication between them? — Except in class, and in the accidents of occasional intercourse, which is always perfectly familiar, there is very little communication — very little direct communication — between them. 134. Do you think that it would be an advantage or a disadvantage to divide the College into three divisions, rather than two, with respect to discipline, if accommodatiori for them could be obtained in the buildings ? — If the arrangement of the buildings permitted it, I think the College might, with advantage, he separated into tlmee divisions, rather than two. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 05 135. The course of yotir lectures must bring you more especiall}' into frequent contact with tlie great (luestions on which dilferent branches of tlie Homan Catholic Church have been divided at times ? — ]\Iy lectures necessarily involve those questions. 13(). Ouestions as to councils, the limits between national churches and the central autliority of the Pope, and such like ? — j\Iy course brings me necessarily into contact with these (piestions ; more, however, as to their history, than as to the doctrine which they involve. 137. Upon such questions, when they come before you, do j'ou express your opinion freely to the students, expressing the conclusions of your own understanding upon tliem without being attached to the conclusions which the books to which you refer involve ? — Yes, I do; of course, within the limits offaitli. 13S. And it is the opinions which you so express which you would be desirous of giving forth to public observation ? — Certaiid}". 13!). You think it especially important, do you not, considering the number of questions that have been debated during the different periods of the Church in which the State has been more or less concerned, that a definite understanding of what is the teaching of the Homan Catliolic Church in Ireland should be arrived at ? — I think it is unquestionably desirable, that, so far as there is a definite teaching on these questions, that teaching sliould be known and understood. 110. It W'oiild tend to prevent misrepresentations, would it not ? — Y"es, it would have 7fh Ortoher I’lCV. Cliarlts William Kiissill, I). a. ('ourse ailujited by vitnuss ill class as to free (Uiestions in the Church. that effect. At the same time, I must say, that, with regard to a great main’’ of these Temporal authority of the Pope. questions, there is no dulinite practical teaching. With regard to a great man}' of them, opinion is left free. 141. Still every man comes to some conclusion in his own mind, does he not? — Indi- viduals come to conclusions in their own minds ; but no one who is rightly informed will consider himself entitled to put them forward with more than his own authority, unless they have received higher sanction. 142. The course of your teaching must bring you, of course, into contact, from time to time, with the questions of the limitations between the temporal power and the power of the Popes, which has, at different times, been in action ? — Y’’es. That is a question which presents itself at every turn in the history of the Church. 143. Will you inform the Commissioners whether your course of teaching has been such as to maintain, or otherwise, the temporal authority of the Pope, either directly or indirectly ? — I have always maintained that neither the Pope nor the Church possesses, by divine right, directly or indirectly, any temporal authority. 144. And that is the common opinion of theologians, is it? — I may say that it is now the all but universal opinion of theologians. 145. Has such been the doctrine maintained, as far as you know, within the walls of IMaynooth, during your acquaintance with it? — Yes; that has been the doctrine uniformly maintained, without any exception, in the College, during the whole time of my acquaint- ance wuth it. 14G. So that, if any other doctrine should appear to have been brought into action by individuals in the practical concerns of life subsequently, in your opinion, that can, in no degi’ee, be attributed to the course of teaching within the walls of the College ? — Not only can it not be attributed to the course of teaching within the walls of the College, but it would be in direct opposition to that teaching. 147. Has it been general, in your experience, as a part of the teaching in Maynooth, to express a definite opinion upon such subjects? — I never heard a second opinion expressed upon the subject, either since I have been a professor, or when I was a student. 148. Would such an opinion go to the extent not only of limiting the interference of teiii''oral the Pope himself in temporal matters, but also that of the priest ? — It would go to the * extent of limiting the authoritative interference of the priest, and the interposition of what I call his sacerdotal authority, in temporal matters; unless where, in those tenq^oral matters, there might be involved a clear and evident question of moral and religious duty ; in which case, too, the interference of the priest would be of a directive, and not a coercive, character. 140. In the character of such influence as he might possess, but not as one entitled to speak with authority, makmg that a sin which a mendjer of his flock might not consider to be so? — We do not recognize any authority on the part of the priest to make anything a sin which is not in itself a sin. 150. By “itself a sin,’’ you mean declared by the Church to be so, do you not? — I mean in its own nature — in the nature of the thing itself — a sin. 151. The mere act of declaring a thing to be a sin, on the part of the priest, does not make it, in its own nature, to be a sin? — Certainly not. 152. Who is to be the judge whether it is of its own nature a sin, when the priest declares it to be a sin? — Upon matters of temporal or civil policy, each citizen can exercise his own discretion. 153. Then no priest would be authorized to excommunicate or withhold any of the rites of the Church from a citizen who had not complied with his exhortations upon a matter of a temporal nature, how’ever much, in the opinion of the priest himself, that matter of a temporal nature might have a bearing upon the interests of the Church ? — The question consists of two members. As regards the first, I should observe that no priest has authority to excommunicate — this is a power reserved to the bishop. As to the second, I can conceive an extreme case (as, in the first French Hevolution, the election of k 'ith Octoher, 185J. Eev. Charles William Kussfll, D.D. Authority of Eoman Catholic clergymen to refuse the sacra- ments to voters. Extreme cases in which a particular vote might he a sin. Distinction between authority as a priest and inllucuce as a piiest. GG MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. members to vote upon the “ Civil Constitution of the Clergy,” or the abolition of celibacy, ifcc.), in which the exercise of the electoral privilege which, at first sight, seems to be a mere temporal matter, in reality is a spiritual matter, and one in which the adoption of a certain determinate course is clearh^ obligatory, as a matter of conscience ; in such a case a priest, even in his sacerdotal capacity, wovdd, I conceive, be entitled to instruct the elector, and Avarn him of the danger or of the sinfulness of such a particular course. I can conceive cases in which this Avould not onl}' be lawful, but a duty. But in matters of a merely temporal nature I tliink a priest is never authorized, as a priest, to interfere ; further than by general instructions as to the moral principles by which the conduct of the laity in these matters should be guided, and without authority to withhold any of the rites of the Church from a citizen who should not have complied with his exiiortations. 151. You have alluded to the case of the French Revolution. Supposing the case had occurred of an alteration in the distribution of ecclesiastical property there, which, of course, would very much interest the clergy indiAudually and the Church generally, do you con- ceive that a priest could in that case make it a sin to vote for an alteration in the distri- bution in the French legislature? — He might represent its injustice; but he could not make it a sm. 155. He might ui’ge strongly every reason against it, but he would not be entitled to make it a sin ? — Unquestionably not, unless it were a sin in its own nature ; and in deciding that point, at so fearful a crisis, there would be many considerations to be taken into account besides tlie abstract question of the alienability of church propeidy. 156. And the priest alwaj^s exercises all authority of that kind under the surveillance of the bishop, does he not ? — He is always considered to exercise his authority under the surveillance of the bishop. 157. Are the Commissioners to understand by the word “ sin,” as used by you, a viola- tion, either directly or indirectly, of the Iuav of God ? — It Avas in that sense that I used the Avord. 158. Is it taught at IMajmooth that it is laAA'ful for a Eoman Catholic clergyman to refuse, or threaten to refuse, the administration of tb.e sacraments to those aa’Iio vote against his wishes at an election ? — I have alAA’aj's lieard jAublic threats to withhold the sacraments, in such cases, most strongly censured. The private granting or Avithholding absolution is a matter regulated by the ordinary principles of morals. Unless the con- templated vote were in itself a sin, the confessor could not AAithhold absolution. In an extreme case, such as I contemplated just noAv, when the vote Avould be clearly sinful, such a coiu’se might be lawfully piu’sued ; but, in ordinary cases, certainly not. 159. When you sajq an extreme case, such as you contemplated, Avhat kind of case do you contemplate ? — I mean a case in Avhich such conduct on the part of a voter would be a clear A'iolation of the laAv of God. IGO. Without referring to any particular case, does such a case occur to you as haA’ing happened in the history of England or of Ireland since the Union ? — It maj' have occurred with refei’ence to Catholic Emancipation ; because there, catcris parihus, an adverse vote on the part of a Catholic, being an active co-operation in maintaining a system of laAvs deA’ised for the persecution of Avhat he believes to be the true religion, would involve gi'aA’e moral guilt ; and such piuyose would disqualify him for absolution. But again, I must be miderstood to speak of the priest’s giving or AAilhholding private absolution, and not of his publicly threatening to refuse the sacraments to persons aa ho declined to follow his adA'ice. I also abstract altogether from the corrupt motives under AA'hich men may act ; as, for example, the influence of a bribe. I am sjAeaking of the thing considered strictly m the abstract. IGl. You Avere asked Avhether j'ou thought such an extreme case had occurred at any time since the Union in these countries, or since 1880 ? — While I claim to hold my oAvn opinions as to the justice or policy of certain of the measures enacted since that date, I do not say that any case has occurred since 1830, Avhich I could consider an extreme case, in the sense AA’hich I have explained, or Avarranting this extreme interference. I mean, supposing the A'oter to be himself satisfied in his own conscience, that the A'ote which he piu’poses to give does not, in the circumstances in Avhich it is given, involve on his part any violation of the moral laAv, and to assure the priest with whom he is in communica- tion, that he has bonafule so satisfied his oaaui conscience. 1G2. Do you consider that it Avould be taught at Maynooth, that a priest could interfere in his sacerdotal capacity of priest, in any questions concerning temporalities, in Avhich it would not be, in your opinion, equall}’ open to the Pope himself to interfere? — A fortiori, a priest could not authoritatively interfere, in his sacerdotal capacity, in any matter in wliich the Pope could not authoritatively interfere. 163. If you consider that the Pope himself could not interfere in any matter of a teni- poral nature, directly or indirectly, in this kingdom, can you conceive that a priest Avdthm this country has any other or more extensive power of interference ? — It would be absurd to say that the priest has more power of authoritative interference than the Pope. 1G4. You make a distinction, do j'oii not, between his authority as a priest, and Ins influence ? — I liaA'^e ah’eady implied a distinction betAV'een his authority as a priest, and his influence as a priest. The latter I do not restrict, except by the rules of prudence and clerical propriety; for the exercise even of this, so far as it is strictly priestly, influence, will be controlled and modified by the consciousness of the sacredness of the character to wliich it is due, and of the ends to which it is destined. 165. In the course of your lectures you occasionally come to periods when there have MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. G7 6 . Ilev. (Miai’les Williuui liussell, D.i>. Tenii>()ral power of the I’opes in the middle ages. Arose from eommoii law of mediicval Christendom. been conflicts between the temporal aiul spiritual power, do you not ? — Yes ; there are 'iih Ovtoher, is5d. many such jterittds. On such occasions do you follow a course of instruction in such matters, which corresponds with the doctrines or the opinions which yon have just expressed to the Com- missioners ? — 1 always assume, as a fixed principle, that neither the Pope nor the Church possesses, by divine right, any direct or indirect temporal authority. 107. Is there any period of history in which these subjects necessarily demand atten- tion from you ? — ,Y most prominent example occurs at the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh. The whole history of his pontifleate turns upon the question of the conflict between temporal and spiritual authority. 108. And do you take occasion in the course of lecturing upon these periods to point out the excesses to which occasionally the administrator of the Church personally has been led ? — I h.ave always explained the histoiy of those periods in strict accordance with the principle which I have now laid down. For example, in all allusions to the history of Pope Gregory VII., I uniformly explain that the temporal power which he exercised in reference to the Emperor Henry IV., was not held by him in virtue of any divine right of his ofiice, direct or indirect, but was vested in the popes by the consent of the princes and peoples of media)val Christendom, and by the expressed or understood principles of the common constitutional laAV of the period. I show that by the common rules of mediteval legisla- tion (which were maintained even in the post-Iteformation Law of England), the sentence of excommunication, though a spiritual one, was made to involve a forfeiture of civil rights; that the law of Spain, as laid down by the Sixth Council of Toledo (in 038) ; the law of France, as admitted by Charles le Chauve (in 859) ; the laws of England under Edward the Confessor ; and the laws of Germany, called the Saxon and Swabian codes — applied these principles to the case of kings themselves; that the German law expressly recognized in the Po2>e (to whom it reserves it) the right to excommunicate the Emperor in certain speci- fied cases; that it even directed the deposition of the Emperor, in case he remain for twelve months unabsolved from a papal excommunication; that this law was expressly alleged by the Saxon nobles in their appeal to the Pope against Henry IV. ; that it is formally described as the ground of Henry the Fourth’s deposition, by his own contemporaries, Lam- bert of Aschaffenburg, Paul of Bernried, Nicholas Roselli, and others ; and that the force of the law was admitted not only by St. Louis of France and the council of his nobles, but even by Henry IV. himself, provided he had been proved guilty of heresj^ I show, further, that the coronation oath which was taken by the Emperor, and still more, that taken by the kings feudatory to the Holy See, (and there were many who became so in the middle age, as Roger of Sicily, Peter III. of Arragon, Guiscard of Naples, Godfrey of Jerusalem, and even John of England), contained an express promise “ to be the protector and defender of the Sovereign Pontiff, and the Holy Roman Church in all their necessities and utilities, and to guard and maintain their possessions, honours, and rights this promise being un- derstood, witliin certain limits, to be the condition of their tenure of authority. From these and a great variety of similar indications of the nature and principles of the constitution of the mediaeval monarchies, I infer that orthodoxy, obedience to the Pope in matters of faith and essential discipline, and communion with the Holy See, were, by the express or tacit consent of the kings and subjects in those ages, made a condition necessary for the tenure of supreme civil authority — just as by the 1st William and Mary, St. 2, c. 2, the pro- fession of the Protestant religion is made a condition of the succession to the throne of England ; and therefore, that it was by this consent of the Christian world, and not by any divine right of their office, that the Popes occupied the position of arbiters between kings and their subjects, and especially that of judges as to the observance of the compact in reference to religion, which was part and parcel of aU the mediseval constitutions. Lastlj', I show that this Hew is admitted even by those who are most opposed to ultramontane doctrines; bj'- French writers, such as Fenelon and Gosselin, and even by Protestant anti- quarians, jurists, and historians, as, for example, Leibnitz, Pfeffel, Eichhorn (in the “Deutsche Staats-und-Rechts-geschichte”), Voigt, Hurter, and others. It is plam that this explanation of the temporal claims of the mediaeval pontiffs removes every difficult}^ as to our present teaching on the temporal power of the Pope. 'Wliile it does not suppose that this exercise of temporal authority was an excess at the time when it was universally recognized, it completely excludes all idea of the applicability of such jnmciples to the modern constitutions of European kingdoms. In order to revive the papal claims as thus explained, it would plainly be necessary to restore the condition of society, and of consti- tutional law, both national and international, in which they originated, and (as is actually proposed by Leibnitz in one of his letters to M. Grimarest, Opj). V., p. 6G) to procui’e anew international consent to the establishment of the papacy as a common tribunal of arbitration among the Christian kingdoms. 109. In all your teaching }’'ou take great care, do you not, to enforce upon the students the importance of keeping the distinction between temporal and spiritual matters constantly in Hew ? — The principles which I lay down in teaching miifoimly involve that distinction ; but I cannot say that I have ever formally laid down a proposition on the subject. My teaching, as I have already observed, regards rather the histori] of these questions than the doctrine which they involve. 170. YHii have stated that it would be very desirable that there should be special trea- tises on the subject of “Justice” and “ Contracts” for Maynooth? — Yms; treatises accom- modated to the cu’cumstances of this countiy, and especially to its laws. 171. Are you aware what are the house treatises on these subjects at present? — I am not able to say positively. The subject is at this moment under consideration. h 2 Desirabilily of houjiC treatises on Justice and Contracts. 1th Octo^mr^ 18">3. 6 . Kev. Charlps William Hussell, D.i). Placing of Bailly on the index. Doctrine as to mar- riage. Teaching in May- nooth on that subject not affected by Bailly 's condemna- tion. Bailly’s opinion as to separability of the contract from the sacrament of mar- riage. Difference of opinion on tbis])oint arose from the con- troversy as to •whether the parties or the priest be the minister of tlic sacra- ment of matrimony. C8 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. 172. Or whether there are any house treatises? — The house treatise on these subjects was Bailly’s Moral Theolog}’, but that has been discontinued ; and although the Moral Theology of Scavini is at present in use, no permanent substitute has as yet been finally determined upon. 173. Can you state the reason why Bailly was placed on the index, and consequently discontinued by the Trustees? — Bailly’s treatise consists of two parts, the “dogmatic theology,” and the “ moral theology.” The “ moral theology” of Bailly alone was read as a part of our College course. The course of “ dogmatic theology” which we read was not that of Bailly, but a course written by one of our former professors, Dr. Delahogue. The reasons for the condemnation of Bailly’s Theology, I never heard authoritatively. It Inis been said that it was condemned on account of certain Gallican opinions which it contains. That reason, of course, would apply solely or princijtally to the dogmatic, and not to the moral portion of the w’ork. But, although this has been publicly alleged as the cause of its condemnation, I have been informed by a clergyman, ivlio heard it from the Pope him- self, tliat the work was not condemned because it contained Gallican doctrines, but because it contained erroireous doctrines on otlier points. Though he did not ask what those doctrines were, I have heard it said, and I am inclined to believe, both from what I have heard and from cert:iin documents which have appeared in reference to the afi’airs of the Church in the kingdom of Sardinia, that it was, partly at least, on account of some pro])ositions which it contains on the subject of marriage. : 17t. If the treatise of Bailly has been so discontinued by reason of any doctrine con- j tained in it on the subject of marriage, among other reasons, state whether such doctrine was taught at iMaynooth, and if the discontinuance of the treatise of Bailly will affect the teaching at Maynooth on the subject of mariiage ? — The doctrines regarding marriage on account of which, I understood, whether rightly or wrongly, it was condemned, were doctrines wdiich were not tauglit at iMaynooth even while Bailly was a class-book, but of which the direct contrary was taught; so that the condemnation of Bailly, and its conseciuent withdrawal from the College course, will not have any effect upon the teaching of iMaynooth in that particular. ’Phe doctrines on account of which, I understood, it was condemned, were i doctrines on which we always difi’ered from the text-book, and departed from its teaching. ’I’he public do not understand the degree of freedom which, in the schools of Catholic | theology, we enjoy in relation to the works which we employ as our text-books. We do not consider ourselves bound to hold — except in those matters which are of faith or j closely connected therewith — the doctrine laid down in a text-book. On the contrary, in j many cases, 1 have known the professor's lecture to consist in disproving the doctrine ; which is laid down in the text-book. ; 17T). It has been stated that Bailly’s doctrine on the subject of the separability of the | contract from the sacrament in marriage has been disapi>roved of by the authorities at ! Borne, who take cognizance of such subjects ; and that for that, among other reasons, the ' work has been placed in the Index. If such has been the case, does Bailly, as you know, . in making such a distinction between the contract and the sacrament in marriage, allude to a civil or a spiritual contract, as distinguished from the grace of the sacrament ? — The ' question contains a supposition. In reference to that supposition, I must sa}', that although ! the doctrine of the separability of the contract from the sacrament was one of the doctrines connected with marriage, (not the only one, however,) on account of which I heard it was con- i demned, I am disposed to tiiink the statement somewhat doubtful. With regard to the | question itself, as to the nature of the contract which Bailly contemplates, namelj' — “ whe- tlier it is a civil contract or a spiritual contract,” I would say that neither of these designa- | tions is fully descriptive ; but that what Bailly contemplates as separable from the sacrament, | is what I would rather call a natural contract than a civil contract — that is to sa}’, it is a | contract freely entered into by parties who are not incapacitated by divine or ecclesiastical law from validly contracting, but devoid of those forms which the civil or municipal law ot I jiarticular countries may have prescribed. What Bailly contemplates is, simply, a contract i naturally valid between the parties, abstracting from the formalities or conditions which ‘ the civil law of any particular countiy may have required. 17(“). What he maintained was, that it could be separated from the sacrament ? — -Yes; that there could be a valid contract, though the sacrament was not validly received by the ])arties thus contracting. That opinion had formerly been held by many theologians. There was one lai'ge school of theologians by whom it had been alwaj'S held. I must ex- plain that there are two opinions as to the question, who is the minister ot the sacrament ot marriage. One school holds that the priest, and the priest only, is the minister of the sacrament of marriage. All the theologians of that school (and they were very numerous, especially in France), must hold that the contract of marriage may be separated from the sacrament of marriage ; because, if the priest alone be the minister of the sacrament, then, in a marriage in ivliich the priest does not officiate, the sacrament cannot be administered. Now all divines admit that there are cases in which a marriage may be valid although the i jiriest does not officiate ; and, therefore, all the theologians of the school referred to have | been obliged to uphold the separability of the contract of marriage from the sacrament of i marriage. Even in the other school, which holds that the minister of the sacrament of : marriage is not the priest, but the conti'acting parties themselves — even in it there have | been some who held the separability of the contract from the sacrament. It Avas on account i of the ojiinion of these theologians, many of Avhom are of high name, that I thought the allegation as to the reason of the condemnation of Bailly an improbable one. 177. Which doctrine does Maynooth teach — that the sacrament invariably follows from the contract, or, on the other hand, that the validity of the contract depends upon the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 69 s.ioraiucnt ? — We teach that the contract is tlie basis of the sacrament, or, to speak precisely, the “ matter of the sacrament and, therefore, that the validity of the contract is the foundation of the saci’ament. 178. Of the two alternatives, the first one is the one which is taught at iMaynooth, is it not ? — Yes. 17i). When you speak of a natural contract, one might speak of it as a moral contract? - — Yes; perhaps you might speak of it as a moral contract, provided the term be under- stood in the sense which I have explained. AVhen I took exception to its being called a “ civil contract" in the (piestion just pi'oposed, I merely meant that to hold the civil contract to be the basis of the sacrament of marriage, would be to ini])ly that the state, which has the direction of the civil contract, must have power to institute what we call diriment (or invalidating) impediments” of marriage — a doctrine which we do not hold at iMaynooth, but rather directly contrary to our tcacdiing. That is another peculiar opi- nion of Dailly’s (although he limits it very considerably) ; and I think it highly i)robable that this is the opinion, on account of which, ])rincipally, his theology has been condemned. He lays down a formal proposition to the effect that “ secular jn-inces have ]iower to insti- tute impediments whereby the marriages of their subjects are dissolved, even as to the bond itself.” 180. For civil purposes you admit these impediments ? — Yes ; not only do we admit them, but we hold that the civil effects depend entirely upon the dispositions of the civil law. 181. Is it taught at IMaynooth that a marriage celebrated according to the requisites of the municipal law, between a Roman Catholic man and a Protestant woman, but not according to the requisites of the Roman Catholic Church, is valid, so as to preclude the Roman Catholic man from contracting, during the lifetime of the woman, a marriage according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church, with a third party ? — If by tlie “ requisites of the Catholic Church” are understood those conditions which, as the ordiuaiy rule of marriage, the Catholic Church requires as necessaiy for its validity — namely, the presence of the parish priest and of two witnesses, as prescribed by the Council of Trent — then I answer, that we do teach such a marriage between a Protestant man and a Roman Catholic woman, or vice versa, to be valid when conducted merely according to the forms of the municipal law ; although, if both the parties were Catholic, it would be invalid, on account of what we call the impediment of clandestinity. 182. The decrees of the Council of Trent on that subject do not apply to ITotestants at all ? — They have been explained by a decree of Benedict XIA^. for the IjOw Countries, and a decree of Pius VI. (or a letter of the Cardinal Prefect of Propaganda, approved by him), for this country, as not applying to the marriages of Catholics and Protestants.* 183. And that is now the law within this countiy, is it not, of the Roman Catholic Church? — Yes. 184. Could any alteration in that law be made by the same authority? — Certainl}’, it could ; it is a mere matter of discipline. 185. Would the admissibility of that depend upon its receiving the sanction of the Irish Roman Catholic bishops ? — I may say that, practically, it would depend upon that cir- cumstance ; because, if the Irish Roman Catholic bishops remonstrated, and represented the alteration as one not suited to the circumstances of the country, it would, doubtless, be withdrawn!. 18(1. AVould the remonstrance of any one bishop prevent its action within his own dio- cese ?— Certainly not — at least authoritatively. Possibly, how^ever, the remonstrance even of one bishop might be acceded to. Ith Orlnht-r, 1854. Hcv. Cliarles tVilliam lJussell, i>.B. 'I'auplit at Maynootk tliat the contract of inarriai'e is tlie bast* of the sacrament ; anil that the state cannot institute diri- ment impediments. Taught also that the civil clfects of marriage dep?nd altogether on the civil law. Validity of marriages hetween Homan Ca- tholics and I'rotost- .ants not solemnized according to the reiiuisites of the Council of Trent. Alteration in the law might he made by the same authority'. * At the desire of the Commissioners, I annex extracts from the decrees referred to in this answer. The first is entitled “ Declaratio, cum instructione, super dubiis respicientibus m.atrimonia in Ilollandia et Belgio, contracta ct contrahenda.” It is found in the Bullarium Beuedicti XIV. Tom. ], p. 178 (Mechlin, 1826), and is dated November 4, 1741 : — “ Quod vero spectat adea conjugia, quas pariter in iisdem Foederatis Bclgii Brovinciis, absque forma il Triden- tino statuta, contrahuntur a Catholicis cum haareticis, sive Catholicus vir hatreticam feeminam in matrimonium dacat, sive Catliolica fosmina ha;retico viro nubat, si forte aliquod hujus generis matrimonium, Tridentini forma non servata, ibidem contractum jam sit, aut imposterum (quod Deus avertat) contrahi conting.at, declarat sanc- titas Rua, matrimonium hujusmodi, alio non concurrente canonico impedimento, validum habendum esse, ct neutrum ex conjugibus, donee alter eorum super vixerit, ullatenus posse, sub obtentu dictas formse non servatai, novum matrimonium inire.’’ The second is in the form of a rescript from the Cardinal Prefect of Propaganda, addressed to Archbishop Troy, and is found in the Statuta Dioecesana pcrProvinciam Dubliniensem observanda (Dublin, 1831), pp. 133-.1: “ Exploratum est Amplitudini Vestrte, nonnullos Ilibernias Antistites Sacram hanc Congregationem de Propa- ganda Fide pluries postulasse, ut Sauct Sedis judicium ipsis innotesceret circa validitatera matrimoniorum, qua;, inter unam partem Catholicam et altersim hatreticam, non servata forma concilii Tridentini, in isto regno contra- huntur. Cum itaque necessaria; ad resolvendum dubium notiti® requisite fuerint, ac demum, sub die 3 Martii currentis, in maturum examen in Sacra Congregatione S. Officii, coram Sanctissimo Domino Nostro Pio PP. VI. revocatum fuerit ; Sanctitas Sua, auditis Eminentissimorum DD. DD. Cardinalium Generalium Inquisitorum suffragiis, decrevit matrimonia mixta, in Hibernia contracta et contrahenda, non servata forma Concilii Triden- ‘ tini, iis in locis in quibus sive Concilium Tridentinum sive etiam ejus Decretum Sess. 24, cap. 1, de reform, for- san fuit promulgatum, alio non concurrente canonico impedimento, quamvis illicita, habenda tamen esse uti viilida. Quod cbm ita sit, Sanctitas Sua vult universos istius Kegni Archiepiscopos et Episcopos, ut nihilominus curent retrahere Catholicos ab hujusmodi illicitis nuptiis. Dum itaque Amplitudinem Vestram de Pontificio ' hoc Decreto certiorem facimus, hortamur etiam ut illud quantocitius omnibus Episcopis suffraganeis suis, pro : eorum regimine et norma, communicet. De qno dum minime dubitamus, Deum Opt. Max. precamur, ut eamdem A.mpUtudinem Vestram sospitem diutissime servet. Amplitudinis Vestrae, ■ Rom®, 19 Martii, 1785, Uti Prater Studiosissimus, L. Card. Antonellds, PrEefectus. S. Borgia, Secretarius.” I may add, that a declaration of similar import was issued for the Duchy of Clive, by Pius VI., dated .June i 19. 1793, and will be found in the appendix of a treatise, “De Impedimentis Matrimonii” (Mechlin, 1834), pp. 155-6. Similar declarations were issued by Pius VII. and by Leo XII. See Scheill’s edition of Schenkl’s Institution.es ' Juris Ecclesiastici Communis, a work especially useful on the more recent ecclesiastical law of Germany. Vol ii. p. 417. Decree of Benedict XIV. as to validity of mixed marriages in the Netherlands not solemnized ac- cording to the decree of the Council of Trent. Letter of Pius VI. (® the same effect as regards Ireland. 70 MAY^^OOTII COMMISSION. 7//t October, 1853. 6 . Ec 7. CharlesWilliam Eussell, D.D. Law of the Council of Trent not in force until thirty days after publication. ^Marriage of two Roman Catholics where requisites pre- scribed by the Council of Trent are not com- plied with. Such marriages void by ecclesiastical law. But the priest in such a case would urge the parties to become i^roperly laarried. 187. Then it is the synodical consent, as it were, of the bishops in the several nations that should be considered ? — Their action need not be what is called strictly synodical ; I speak of their joint or common action as remonstrating. 188. The remonstrance of all, or of a considerable proportion? — Yes. 18‘J. Y"ou imagine, do you not, that if there were such remonstrance, such a resolution would not be adhered to ; but, if adhered to for any reason, would it still have the force of law, in spite of that remonstrance, in the minds of Homan Catholics in Ireland? — In that case, the discipline of the Council of Trent, which at present only applies to the marriages of Catholics, -would be extended to the mixed marriages also. Attention was first called to the subject of the applicability of this decree to mixed marriages in Holland, Belgium, and some of the German States ; and it was in consequence of this application that the rescript of Benedict XIV., to which I have referred, was issued. A similar one was addressed to this country, in similar circumstances, in consequence of an application made by the bishoj^s of this country. Both rescripts declared that the decrees of the Council of Trent on that subject did not apply to marriages between Catholics and Protestants. They ai’e rather declarator!/ than disj.iensaiori/ . I'JO. Axe 3'ou aware that it was stated in evidence before the Commissioners, in 1826, that the law of clandestinit}% founded upon the deci’ees of the Council of Trent, had been published in the greater part of the dioceses of Ireland, but not in the province of Lein- ster nor in the wardenship of Galway? — Yes. 191. Is not that at variance with what you have stated as to the power of an archbishop or bishoj) to exempt his district from theii’ operation? — No; because my answer regarded the Pope’s explanation or interpretation of the decree where it had been already published and was alreadjGn force; but the answer of 1826 regards the first in’omulgation of the law. Now the decree of the Council of Trent contained an express clause that it should not be held to be in force until thnty days after publication, not merely in each diocese, but even in each particular parish of every diocese ; so that the decree of the Council of Trent on the subject of marriage is, as regards the law of promulgation, an entirely exceptional case, and it had not come into force in the dioceses referred to, simply because it had not been published there. 192. At present there is apparently a variation in the general rule permitted specially in certain cases? — Yes, for these countries, and for mixed countries generally; I should rather, however, call it an interpretation of the rule than a variation in the rule. 193. Has that been published in each particular parish ? — It has; I cannot say the pre- cise year, but it has been published both in the wardenship of Galway, and in the other dioceses in which it had not j>reviously been published, and in the several parishes of these dioceses, with the formalities required. 194. Is it taught at Maynooth that a marriage celebrated in Ireland between two Koman Catholics, by a Pioman Catholic clergyman, but not in conformity with the decrees of tlie Council of Trent, -nitli regard to clandestinity, is a marriage valid, so as to preclude the parties, during the lifetime of each other, from contracting marriage, according to the requi- sites of the Pioman Catholic Chm’ch, with other pai’ties ? — Certainl}^ not — the contrary is taught; such a marriage is held to be invalid : we look upon the parties in such case as not legall}^ married ; so that, as far as mere validity is concerned, and apart from all ques- tion of the rights of the other party, which may arise from injury sustained, each of them is as much at liberty to contract a new manage as if no former marriage had been per- formed between them. By “ legally,’’ I mean legally, in reference to the ecclesiastical law. 195. Are j'ou aware whether such a marriage would be valid b}^ the law of the land ? — It would be valid ; but a bill was suggested some j^ears since, the effect of 7vhich would be to make the law of the Catholic Church the standard of the legal validity of Catholic marriages. However, for all consequences which involve any civil right the marriage, even though invalid in the eyes of the Church, would be held to be valid. Its ecclesiastical invalidity would not be held by us to produce any civil effect ; and therefore, for all those consequences of marriage which dei^end upon the civil law, its invalidity in the ej^es of the Chiu’ch would not have any influence ; so that the rights of succession, the rights arising out of settlements based on the marriage, the legitimacy of childi’en, and all the other civil consequences, would proceed precisely as if we held it to be valid by the Church law. 196. Would it be held that a man could, without sin, abandon the woman and children ? — Looking to the mere question of the validity of the marriage, and apart from the considera- tion of injuiy done to the woman, and the obligations imposed b}-- paternity, even when milawful, not only would it be held, that the man could, without sin, abandon the woman, but it would be held that, living with her, he was livmg in a state of concubinage, unless there were bona fdes. The children, of com’se, would have rights independentty of the vali- dity of the marriage. 197. And without shi, he could contract another marriage ? — Certamly : at least, so far as the tie of the former union is concerned, and abstracting from any right the woman maj" have acquired, in virtue of mjury done, or of a promise expressed or implied. 198. Then the impediment created by the decree of the Council of Trent, is an “im- pediment diriment?” — Y’^es. 199. That does not apply to the case of mixed marriages, but only to the case of mar- riages between Koman Catholics ? — To the latter only. 200. In the case of a marriage being void from clandestinity, the priest would, of course, urge the parties to get married in the proper way ? — Certainly. That was the meaning of the reservation used in ni}" former answer. MLNaiTES OF EVIDENCE. 71 201. Ife would not exhort tlic man, or countenance his ahandoning liis wife ^ — No, he would exhort him to contract marriage with lier anew, with the required formalities. 202. Suppose the mere existence of a civil contract, recognized the state, would that be considered as that kind of pre-contract whicli would prevent a sacramental marriage being engaged in subsequent!}^ with another person 2 — The existence of a civil contract, without the ecclesiastical formalities, would not be a har to the validitij of a subsequent ''•marriage; but, in most cases, it would render a subsequent marriage unlawful, and would, at all events, be regarded by us, in virtue of the very engagement which it implies, as imposing a conscientious obligation on the parties to contract a valid marriage, that is, to renew their marriage with the formalities which Ave consider essential. 20.3. You would urge in conscience upon the man, not to incur a second obligation, but you would not feel yourself entitled to withhold the sacrament of marriage from the party so applying, in case he refused to comply with what you considered his moral duty, involved in the previous contract? — There are many cases in whicdi I would not only consider my- self fully justifled in resisting the application under such circumstances, but Avould consider such resistance a manifest duty. I would regard the x>revious marriage, though void from Avant of formality, yet equivalent to a promise, binding in conscience, and as a matter of strict justice. The attempt to desert a woman in sucli circumstances, and to contract a marriage Avitli another, would be a violation of Avhat is a strict right in justice on her part; and to persist in the intention of violating that right, AA^ould establish the Avant of a dispo- sition for the sacrament, Avhich Avould not only Avarrant me in resisting his application, but make it my duty to resist it. 204. In the case of two Catholics having contracted m.annage, void from clandestinity, and that the man came Avith another Avoman to you to be married, you Avould do all in your jAOwer to induce him to cohabit, and make valid his marriage with the first AVoman ? — Yes. 205. And unless coerced to it, you would not celebrate a second marriage ? — Certainly not. 20G. SuxTOS^i^o Roman Catholics to enter into a contract of marriage, fer vcrha de presenti, where the decrees of the Council of Trent had not been received, but the clergy- man does not perform the marriage ceremony ; in that case, is the marriage a valid mar- riage, both as to the sx)iritual, as Avell as the civil consequences ? — Certaiirly, it is a good and valid marriage. 207. Reference has been made to the original correspondence on the foundation of Maynooth, betAveen the Cardinal Prefect of Proxiaganda in 1790, and the original Eccle- siastical Trustees of the College uxAon one XAoint, to which I will just call your attention. The passage is this — “ Verum cum et nonnullje adhuc supersint qufestiones quse in Scholarum disputationibus in utramque jAartem salva fide et iiace versantur, magni quoque refert statuere, quibus potissimum ducibus, ac magistris in earum exjAlicatione utendum sit. Quo in delectu ne diutius haesitandum sit, faciunt duo ilia qua; se statim omnium oculis offerunt sjAlendidissima ecclesise lumina, et ornamenta, Augustinus et Thomas, quorum excellenti doctrinse orbem pro^Ae totum theologicae disciplinae complectenti, eo tutius fidere quisque A^aleat, quo amjAliora illis omni aetate, saxAientium omnium consensu, summorum Pontificum notissimus decrctis tributa sunt x^lena laudis et commendationis insignia.” The ansAver to AApich, from the Ecclesiastical Trustees, is this — “ Ad juvenes in sortem Domini vocatos atque sacris disciplinis in Collegio imbuendos quod attinet, maxime interest, uti saxAienter monet Eminentia tua, ut sanae doctrinse x'»abulo enutriantur atque a noxio vel susxAecto arceantur ; Cavendum item ab inutilibus et stultis quaestionibus qute lites generant. In dubiis vero de quibus salva fide et x^ace in scholis hinc inde disputatur cum nobis exxAloratum sit quot, et quam eximiis x^roeconiis summi Pontifices et Ecclesia universa omni oevo exornaA-erint doctrinam St. Augustini et St. Thomae fidelis- simi ejus interpretis, hos tanquam duces et magistros in ejusmodi quaestionibus amplec- tendos et sequendos curabinius.” Fi’om these two x">assages it has been inferred that an engagement has been entered into by the Trustees of th.e College of Maynooth, u]Aon all questions Avhich are in doubt amongst theologians, and Avhich are not decided by the Church itself, that the fiature teacliing of the College shall be in accordance Avitli the views of St. Augustine and St. Thomas. And further, that, consistently Avith this engage- ment, the College of Maynooth cannot fairly teach the first of the Galilean liberties, Avhich the College generally x)i’ofesses to teach, that the PoxAe has no x^ower to interfere, directly or indirectly, in the affairs of temporal kingdoms, and no x^ower of dissolving the oath of allegiance. Is there any thing in the teaching of St. AugusthAC or St. Thomas upon that point which is at variance AAnth the doctrine you lay doAvn ? — I have never looked closely into that correspondence, nor considered its full bearing, nor do I xn'etend to haA’e read all the works of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, Avhich fill thii’ty folio volumes; but this answer, at least, I can most distinctly give, that, whateA^er may have , been the sense of the instruction of the Cardinal Prefect, and AApatever the sense of the answer of the Ecclesiastical Trustees to whom it Avas addressed, whether there be any thing in the thirty folio volumes of St. Augustine and St. Thomas that is inconsistent with the doctrine which has been exx)lained on the subject of the temporal power of the Pope, or not, certain it is, that no such teaching has ever been introduced into the College of Maynooth. That is my first answer. But secondly, in direct rexAly to the ques- tion, I say that there is nothing in the teaching of either of these great doctors at variance . with the principles which I lay down. It cannot be inferred from any thing either in St. Thomas or in St. Augustine, that the PoxAe or the Church has, by dmne right, any direct or indirect power in temporals. Of St. Augustine, I can say, without hesitation, that there is nothing in his works to countenance the idea of such x^ower. Of St. Thomas, AA’ithout 7th October, 1853. "eT Eev. Cli.ArlestVilliajn Kussell, D.u. Conscientious obli- g.ation to valicl.ate the jircvious invalid niari'i.age. Supposed inference from the correspond- ence between the Cardinal Prefect of Propaganda and the Ecclesiastical Trus- tees, in 1796, as to teachin g in May nooth on the subject of the temporal poAver of the Popes. Such inference from the writings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas erroneous. 72 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 7/A October, IS03. 6 . Kev. Charles 'William llussull, D.U. Teaching of St. Thomas referable to mcdi.eval constitu- tion of society. Attention of students called to this distinc- tion. ■Whether the teach- ing of these doctors has any bearing on teaching in i\iay- nooth as to the other points of the so-called Gallican liberties. Freedom of Kom.au Catholic schools as to opinions of doctors. lUA October, 18b:3. Ker. P. Murray, i).D. Suggested alteration in Divinity Classes. knowing the specific passages to which the question points, I am able positively to assert that eveiy statement of liis on the subject of the temporal power of the Popes can be fully explained as referring to that power which, as already stated, was granted to them in the j^ieculiar state of society in which St. Thomas wrote. There is no doubt, that during the mediaival times in which St. Thomas wrote, the church did enjoy, by the constitutional law of the period and by the concession of the civil power at the time, very considerable influence and authority in temporal matters. But that authority was a thing quite inde-* pendent of the spiritual power of the CUmrch and distinct from it. 'Whatever, therefore, St. Thomas may have said on the subject of the right of the Church or of tlie I^ope to interfere in temporal matters, arose out of that peculiar state of things, and is applicable to that peculiar state of things, and to that state of things only. It is not applicable to the present state of society, nor to the iiolitical relations which now subsist between the state and the Church, whetber in tliis country, or in any other. Nor could those principles which may be objected to us from certain jiassages of St. Thomas, ever be applied in practice now, unless there were brought back again such a state of things as | existed in the middle ages, when, in virtue of special concessions on the part of the civil | power, and at the call alternately of rulers and their subjects, the Church w'as permitted, | or ratlier invited, and indeed solicited, to interfere in matters of a purely temporal nature, where the well-being of religion was thought to demand her interposition. i 208. Is tlie attention of tlie students ever called to these passages, and the distinction > ever pointed out to them between the times in which these authors wrote and the exist- | ing circumstances of society ? — I have repeatedly pointed out this distinction. These, indeed, are the principles on which I have uniformly explained all the instances of interference in temporal matters which have presented themselves to the consideration of my class in our course of mediaeval history. 201). And was that the instruction which you yourself received when you were a student ? — Precisely such. 210. In regard to the three other doctrines which are called the Gallican liberties, has the teaching of those doctors a conclusive bearing upon what may be taught at May- nooth, with respect to the superiority of a general council, and so on ? — Never having specially examined the works of either with a view to these questions, I cannot pretend to speak except from general impressions. I can only say, therefore, tliat the question involved in the second of the Gallican propositions had not arisen at the time when St. | Thomas wrote ; nor do I recollect ever to have seen any positive statement from him, or j from St. Augustine, upon that subject. I may say the same, as far as I recollect at pre- ' sent, of the third proposition, which chiefly regards the “ Gallican Ijiberties,” properly so called, although this proposition is certainly at variance with the general spirit of St. 1 Thomas ; but, as regards the fourth proposition, his doctrine is certainly opposed to the Gallican view, and in favour of the infallibility of the Pope, speaking ca; cathedra^ and that of St. Augustine is also cited — the well known passage on the judgment pronounced b}' the Pope in the Donatist controversy: — “ Cautut Jinita est : iitinam aliquan do Jitiia tin- error !" (Sermo cxxxi. 10, v. 704). However, to confine myself to the direct question, it is plain, I conceive, from the answers of the IVIaynooth Professors of Theology at the former inquiry, held in 182G, that they at least did not consider that the instruction of the Cardinal , I*refect in reference to the teaching of SS. Augustine and Thomas, imposed any obligation ; of rejecting the Gallican doctrines. And, when it is remembered that, even in the contro- ^ versies on grace and freewill, the opinions of St. Thomas are permitted to be freely can- vassed in all our schools, it will easily be understood that, whereas the Gallican proposi' j tions were held to be perfectly free, no general instruction such as this, to follow the teaching of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, in the way in which such direction is understood in schools of Catholic Theology, could preclude any person from holding these propositions, supposmg ^ them, on other grounds, to approve themselves to bis own mind as true or defensible. | 211. YTu do not conceive that when a man or a school binds himself or itself to admit that there is a general guide of his teaching upon dubious points, he is thereby bound to everv particular opinion upon every point ? — Certainly not ; still less to the consequences i of every particular opinion. { [The Witnef:s withdrew.] \ Tuesday, llxii October, 1853. The Rev. Pat rich Murray, d.d., s.t.r., examined. 1. You are Professor of the First Class of Theology at Maynooth ? — YTs. 2. One of the main improvements which you would suggest in the system of study pursued i at Maynooth, is throwing two classes together, so as to give to the double class an atten- ! dance upon one professor, only thus liberating one professor, and giving him more leism’e for the pursuit of his own studies, making a better preparation for the class, and enabling him to prepare treatises which may of themselves be class-books of the College. Do you not apprehend, if this plan were adopted, that the class would become too numerous for a proper investigation of its progi’ess ? — I think not ; and I have stated in my written answers the reasons of my opmion. 3. Y"ou think that you can ascertain the absolute and relative merits, and the amount of information acquked by each student in the class, as fully and efficiently under the system you propose as under the present system? — Y'es. * See Secunda Seeundse, Q. i.. Art. 10, Vol. i., pp. 42-4. Eome, 1619. MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 73 4. You could not interrogate them so often, could you? — I think very nearly as often: I ex])hiined in my written answer how that could be done. The present custom of inter- rogation is to keep each student on half an hour, and sometimes for a whole houi-. 1 ask him to itrove a proposition, and he goes over the proof. 1 then give liini objections, and fill up what is wanting in his answers. Now, I tbink that all this work could be done fully as elfectually''in a ipiarter of an hour or twenty minutes: it would be inexpedient at present to call the students so often as they wovdd be called if interrogated each but for a quarter of an hour. The round of calls would expire in half the time, and the students would be constantly exposed to interrogation. b. Would that be an evil ?' — It would press on them too hard.* (5. Would it not tend to exercise their minds more, and show them how to make use of their learning? — I think their minds are, if anything, overwrought; that is my ojiinion. 7. Do you think that their attention to theology is too exclusive at present? — During the years of their attendance at the theological classes, I think not. The study of theology, both dogmatical and moral, is our professional studj^ and I need not say that it is a most extensive and most dillicult science : there are portions of it which are very diflicult to know well, and large portions of it which, if the students do not study in College, the great mass of them being men of ordinary capacities, would find such extreme difiiculty in study- ing after they go on the mission, that they would not do it. There are treatises both in dogmatic and moral theology, which, if the students did not leani in Maynooth, they would never learn afterwards ; and 1 think that the time at present devoted to the study of theology could not be abridged, at least not much abridged, without detriment to the acquisition of that knowledge, t 8. In using the term “ overwrought,” there is, no doubt, a physical evil resulting from too many liours of application to study, but there is also another evil, which is the appli- cation of the mind to the same subject for too many hours distinct from the physical exhaustion produced bj" absolute application to study? — To that I would say, first, as to those who freely choose the priesthood, and prefer it as a state of life, and who therefore are supposed to have a i)eculiar relisli for that science which is the proper study of a priest, that to those persons there is a peculiar interest in the study of theology which does not exist in those whose professional studies are of a non-theological character. In the second place, the matter of theology, though all embraced in the circle of one science, is yet very extensive, and its numerous divisions are very varied. A treatise on the evidences of Chris- tianity, and a treatise on laws or on contracts, or on any of the sacraments, present as difterent a field, and as diversified a character, to the minds of the students or the pro- fessors, as different sciences or different branches of philosophy would do. Then, even in the same treatise there is a constant succession of new questions, and entirely different matter— for instance, in the treatise I am teaching now, from which I have drawji some illustrations in my wiitten answers, namely, the treatise “ De Religione,” or on the evidences of religion in general, and of the Christian religion, we begin with a discussion on the existence of the natural law. We then proceed from that to the necessity of I'evelation. Is revelation necessary? — in what sense is it necessary for man destitute of it ? — and, after establishing the propositions upon that matter, we go to a question altogether of a different kind, namely, the possibility and the utility of the revelation of mysteries — then to the question of miracles ; the definition of a miracle ; the possibility of a miracle ; and what we call the ris prohaiua of a miracle, that is to say, tire effect which a miracle should have in proving the doctrine in proof of which it is wrought. Then we go to a general consi- llt/i Octoher, 1S5;J. 7 . Kev. r. Murray, a. D. Wlictlicr amount of application to theo- logy exclusively is excessive. Extreme importance of that study. Extensh c subject- matter of divinity course. » Note subseqnentli/ added. — I meant the formal calh, as they are now, having all the terrors, and moi’c than the solemnity of our present public examinations, and occupying more lime for the trial of each student. On the expediency of another kind of interrogation, I shall have something to submit to the Commissioners hereafter. t Note s'thsequetitbj added. — There are in Maynooth, as in every other college, two classes of students ; that which comprises persons of average, of slender, and of decidedly inferior abilities ; and that which comprises those above the average, those of superior, iind those of pre-emincntlj' superior abilities. Of both 1 would remark : — First, that by the former class, especially by the lowest in it, all the treatises, dogmatical and moral, the knowledge of which is necessary or useful for a missionary priest, should he read in college under, a professor — otherwise those treatises are not likely to be read afterwards; and the lower the abilities of the individual are, the greater will be the chance of this omission, and the greater will be the danger of errors committed from time to time in consequence of the omission. But, secondly, there are two ways of studying or teaching a treatise, the difference between which is like that between what wo call Pra:lectiones ilajores and the Compendium of the same, in the former, questions are introduced, and views and principles evolved, which are altogether omitted in the latter. In the former, ques- tions are overlaid with many subtleties, much learning ; in the latter, they are presented under but one aspect, simple, unencumbered. In a word, the former are for students of a higher order of understanding and prepara- tory culture, and would but bewilder those who find in the limits of the latter the whole horizon of their mental vision. Eow I have no doubt that theology, especially the greater part of dogmatic tlicology, if taught in that more ample and profound manner, which students of a superior class not only perfectly ajipreciate but greatly profit by, will be useless to students of a lower order of mind, and even j)ositively injurious to them. Here, then, is a case in which, for a large (I fear, the larger) class of persons, an humbler and more elementary form of instruc- tion is the more profitable ; in which reserve in religious teaching is actually the sounder system to bo adopted towards so many of those who are to become themselves the teachers of the iieople ! Thirdly, what then is the professor to do? I have in one class, suppose, twenty students above the common level, some more and some less, but all above it. The best of the remainder of the class are but “middling,” with, perhaps, some among them that are barely ])assable. If I keep my teaching down to the common level, I do a serious injurj- to those that are above it. If I elevate the tone of my instructions and interrogatories, I address only “hard words” to those at or below the level. I do not think it possible to remedy this state of tilings by statute. All must depend on the professor’s tact and skill ; and these, even if they sufficed for the object, could uo more be enforced by law than a particular expression of the countenance or a particular modulation of the voice. Torhaps it would be a good rule for a professor to kei-p to the higlicr standard, and to exact conformity only with the lowi, r. But here, too, there are difficulties which I would but weary the Commissioners by detailing. The sum of all this is, as to the question of fact. The compass of our theologic.al course is neither too high nor too wide for the more intelligent class of students. For the rest a more simple and elementary, and therefore shorter course — shorter as to the subject matter — would be a great improvement : for these 1 am of opinion that we have too much, a great deal too much, theology. Classification of students as toability. Students of inferior abilities should study all the requisite parts of the course, but in a more elementary form. Difficult}' of adapting teaching to students of superior and in- ferior abilities at once. Too much theology for students of infe- rior abilities: not too much for the rest. I 74 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. ll^A O'lohcr, 7 . Rev, P. Murray, d.d. Extensive and various subject matter of divinity course. Advantages of pro- posed alteration. deration of the force and evidence of prophecy; and then to the more specific and detailed matter of the tract ; to an investigation of the authenticity, and integrity, and veracity of the Pentateuch. Having settled the divine origin of the Jewish religion, we investigate the authenticity, integrity, and veracity of the Gospels ; then we enter into a discussion on the special force of the evidence from the resurrection of Christ ; then we jn’ove the divi- nity of the Christian religion — among other arguments, from its extraordinary and super- human propagation in the earlier ages, and from the testimony of the numberless martyrs who suffered such excruciating torments, and died to testify the truth of the facts on which the Christian revelation is based. That is one tract. Now, that one tract embraces nu- merous matters which, though arranged and moulded, and directed to one great end, yet present to the mind engaged in the study of them, a great variety of topics. When that is over, we enter on a class of questions, of a totally different kind, in the treatise of the Tri- nit}'. The first question thei’e is what is called the general question against the Sociniaus. The Socinians held, that any interpretation of the Scriptures which did not square with the principles of reason, in their sense of the terms, that is, did not come within the sphere of natural reason to comprehend, should be rejected. Having established the first general proposition as preliminary to the consideration of the great mystery of the Trinity, we proceed to establish the mystery itself, that there are three persons in one God. We then proceed to prove the divinity of Christ, which is a magnificent question, as furnishing so wide a field for the exhibition of scriptural knowledge, and textual reasoning. AVe prove it from the prophecies of the Old Testament, and innumerable passages in the New. In treating questions of that sort, we dwell more particularly on Scripture, it affording such a superabundance of proof, as to render it unnecessary to look elsewhere ; and so on with the other questions in that treatise. After Christmas we commence with the treatise, “ Dc actihuH humanism!' In that treatise, after defining what a human act is, the act which a man performs with due deliberation and advertence, we proceed to examine what are the various causes that destroy or diminish the liberty of those human acts, with a view to ascertainmg how far men are responsible for their acts. We find that there are ignorance ; necessity, that is, a determination physicallj' or morally irresistible in one direction ; coaction, that is, external pressure or violence ; fear, and other ]iassions ; conciqnscence, as we technically call them by a general name, to distinguish them from the passion of fear. AVe examine into each of these, and see how far they take away liberty, and under what circumstances. For exami)le, with regard to ignorance, we take that as one of the causes that diminish or take away the responsibility of an act ; if a man is invincibly ignorant of a law, and violates it, he commits no sin ; if his ignorance is cid- pable, he sins, but his sin is less than if he acted with full knowledge ; and so in like man- ner as to fear. There is what we call metus levis, or hght fear ; slight apprehension ; and there is metus gravis, a grave or serious fear. A light fear, is the fear of light evil that is likely to happen to us, or of a serious evil that is not likely to happen. It does not affect the responsibility of our actions. A serious fear, gravis metus, is the appre- hension of some serious calamity or evil that is likely to happen, and that diminishes the responsibility and sin of an act; diminishes the liberty of the act, but does not ren- der the act sinless, unless in the case of those laws which do not bind, cum gravi incom- 7)wdo. Then we go on examining other questions about human acts, and afterwards pass on to the treatise “ of conscience ;” there we define what is meant by conscience, and show it to be a rule of moral conduct; we examine into various kinds of conscience. There is the conscientia i-ecta, a right conscience ; and then there is the conscientia erronea, an erroneous conscience ; there is the conscientia vincihiiiter erronea, that is an erroneous conscience, which it is in my power to set right, and which I have sufficient knowledge to know my duty of rectifying, and so on. AA"e have in that tract, the celebrated question which every reader of Pascal’s Provincial Letters knows, at least by name, the question of probabilism, that is, whether, in a case where there are grave reasons for and against an opinion, I am free to adopt either side in practice. The general principle of probabilism is this, unless the law is clear, I am not bound by it. After the treatise of conscience comes that “ of laws,” in which we have the definition of a law ; the various con- ditions for a law; the various ways in which it binds, and whom it binds. For example: suppose a law, in this province or diocese, (we speak principally of ecclesiastical laws,) whether a man coming from another diocese is bound by that law here, and so on. Then we pass on to tlie treatise “ of justice,” and the obhgation of restitution ; we define what is meant by justice, and show the necessity of a man making restitution for any injury done to another person in those matters in which restitution can be made. AVe show v.arious ways in which an injuiy may be done, by direct infliction of it, or by co-operation, and soforth. AVhat has led to this series of illustrations was the question as to a sufficient variety of subjects.* 9. At present are the Commissioners to understand that in the theological classes — take, for instance, the first class under yourself — during a particular period of the year, say the next three months, you will lecture the students exclusively in dogmatic theology? — Yes. 10. Therefore, under the present arrangement of the classes, a certain class has to give itself up entirely to the study of dogmatic theology for a certain period ? — Yes. 1 1 . But under the proposed arrangement, two classes being united in one, and that double class attending one professor in the morning, and another professor in the evening, they * Note suhsequenthj added. — As the above review of treatises might, to some, appear to be needlessly, lugged in, I think it right to say, that, after I had proceeded a little in it, I discontinued, till one or two of the Commissioners, who seemed not unwilling to hear more on the subject, expressed a wish that I should go on. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 75 would liave a lecture in dogmatic theology in one, and a lecture in moral theology in the other, would they not? — I'recisely so; and that throws additional light upon the subject, and puts an additional argument into my hands, which, indeed, I should myself have thought of. 12 . Are you of opinion that that variety in itself would be advantageous ? — I am decidedly of that opinion. The plan proposed is, as I stated in my written answers, that which exists in all the large ecclesiastical Colleges, I believe, in the world — indeed, in every College where the funds enable them to keep up a sufficient staff of professors, so as to have different professors for the different departments. 1 8. Are 3 'ou of opinion, from what you have observed of the minds of the students who come under your observation, that that alteration of subject would, as it were, produce, or be attended with a greater elasticity of mind, and also, so far enable them to make gi’eater progress ? — I am cpiite clear that it would. I have had some years’ experience of teaching, and I find that when I am at a long heavy question, that occupies, sa}% three or four, or even a smaller number of classes, the attention of the students begins to flag before I have quite finished the ipiestion. I find that they come to a new question, or to a new tract, with that elasticity of mind of which you speak, so that I think, over and above the other advantages, the proposed plan would have also the advantage of relieving the minds of the students from the dulness which is produced more or less by proceeding day after day in the same studj', however diversified it may be. 14. llow many hours are given to study, on the average, by the young men ? — I have mentioned that in my witten answers. They have at one period of the year nine hours, and at another, and shorter iieriod of the year, ten hours. Thej'' rise at six o’clock from the opening of the classes in September till the close of the Easter week. They are allowed half an hour to dress. They have prayer and meditation for half an hour. They have study for an hour and a half every Llonday, Tuesda}q Thursday, Friday, and Satiu’- day. They then have mass, which occupies half an hour ; then breakfast and recreation. They go into study again at ten, for half an hour before the first lecture. They then have the lectiu’e, with five minutes recreation before each lecture, for an hour. They have then recreation for half an hour, and then study for two hours, from twelve till two, and then they have lecture from two till three. Then a spiritual exercise in the chapel, and then dinner, which, I suppose, occupies half an hour, and then recreation from dinner till five. Thej' then have study from five till a quarter to seven, and then a quarter of an hour’s recreation, and then the}' have study from seven till eight. In the junior side of the house the freshmen of the logic class, and all the students of the two Latin and Greek classes attend the class of English rhetoric during that hour. Then, after Easter, there is an additional hour. The}' rise an hour earlier, and instead of an horn* and a half before mass, they study for two hours ; and instead of half an hour before the first class, they study for an hour. 15. What is the longest interval of recreation for the students and professors in the course of a day ? — It varies with the different days. It is uniform on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. What I have stated as to the distribution of time applies to those four days. The students have about three quarters of an hour for recreation after break- fast, half an hour between half-past eleven and twelve, about an hour and a quarter after dinner, a quarter of an hour before seven o’clock in the evening, and three quarters of an hour between supper and night prayer. The longest period they have on those days is I after dinner ; they have about an hour and a quarter. On Wednesdays and Saturdays I and Sundays, instead of going in to study at five, they do not go in till six, that is, ! they are not bound to go in. But on the evenings of those three days, some of them , do go in, and it is supposed that silence is observed in the study halls from half-past I five. On Saturdays, during the day they have a little more recreation. On Wednesday [ they have the whole day from twelve till six in the evening, and they have a public walk, if 1 the weather permits, from twelve till three. IG. The present arrangement of having two theological classes in the day was not the j original practice in the College, was it? — No ; not until 1828. 17. On that occasion was the opinion of the professors themselves called for ? — I do not know it was before I entered the College, but I rather think not. E 18. In 1828 a third chair was established, was it not ? — Yes. 19. Consequently the proposed arrangement would have been impracticable at that time ? — Yes. 20 . Now there are four, and it would appear that instead of having two professors lectm'ing morning and evening, you have four on dogmatic and moral theology ? — Yes ; the truth is this — the brief answer to your questions, without going into the details of the j matter is this — that the proposed system prevails every where else, and prevailed in May- ! nooth until it was upset in 1828. [ 21 . Do you think that on the whole the students would learn more in the year if there was less work, and more relaxation ? — According to this present plan there would be as much class work. But I have stated my opinion upon the whole subject so fully in my written answers, that I do not think it i^ossible to add more now'. 22 . But with respect to the recreations of the students have you any thing to state ? — I have stated that I think the students ought to have vacant days now and then, from time to time, and that I believe the change from the old system of the College in that respect has acted injuriously iqion the minds of the students. When I was a student, I recollect myself that when we got a vacant day in that w'ay, unexpectedly, it used to Uth Odobrr, 1853 . 7 . Eev. P. Murray, d.d. Time devoted to study. Periods of recreation. Arrangement of divinity lectures pre- vious to 1828 . Kecrcatiou of stu- dents. 76 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. IWi October, IS-OS. 7 . Rev. P. ^Murray.D.n. Life of tlie students too laborious and monotonous. Vacant days in other Colleges. Opinion of witness as to extension of times of relaxation. Language of wit- ness's lectures. revive me, and I went to study -with a degree of alacrity that accompanied me perhaps for a week afterwards. Now, from the opening of the class to its close at Christmas, they have not one single ho//a ^fide vacant day, not one. 2-L Do you think it would benefit the students to have their half hour’s recreations changed into hours ? — I think it would he better to leave the regular study days sub- stantially as they are. The study of theology recpiires so much application, that during the actual study days I doubt very much if it would be expedient to make the time for recreation an hour, hut instead of that, I would give them occasional vacant days, when they would get the whole day to themselves. I mean merely from breakfast to (linnei-, or even half a daj'. I know when they chanced to get a vacant day, the few occasions on Avhich this occurred, I observed a manifest healthiness in their mental as well as ])hysi- cal capacities when they came to the class the next day. If I am out for a day I feel myself renovated, and what acts upon the professors must act veiy powerfully on the students. If I go in wearied to a class, the great majority of the students are persons deriving their theological knowledge, not from books alone, some not from books at all, hut from me, and if my manner is dull, and heavy, and scattered, of course, then the students will catch the contagion, and become dull themselves, and what is given out in a dull manner will be received in a dull manner. 24. Is a professor allowed to release his class from lectures if he sees reasons to give them rest? — No; to do that is be 3 'ond our power, it is vested only in the President of the College. 25. At present, is it considered that the life of a student at l\Iaynooth is too dull, labo- rious, ancl monotonous ? — I think so. I’lie students come into the College, generally speaking, healthy, stout young men, and they leave the College at the end of the course, many of them, though formerly stout, now broken down, veiy few of them without traces of the long hea\y work they have gone through — traces that do not leave some of them for life. 2G. Are there maiy cases in wliich you find that a student utterly breaks down from study ? — I do not turn ray attention much to those things ; but, if I had time to consider, if I were to talk to some other persons, I might be able tf) give a more definite answer. There are other professors who know those things better than I do. I am sure that there is a very considerable number of studmits that are broken down from hard study, a very considerable number utterly lose their health. 27. You are acquainted with the practice of other ecclesiastical colleges, are j’ou not? — Only from the statements of others. I have never been out of Ireland. 28. Are you aware how far your suggestions would be in accordance with the practice of other colleges, or the reverse ? — I have made two suggestions ; first, as to the change of classes; and secondhq as to what one of the Commissioners asked me about vacant days. I liave heard that in Rome there are several extra vacant days. I’here is another fact, that in Rome, and in every large Roman Catholic college on the continent, I am told that the two first da}'S of the last week in Ijent are vacant. Then there are times called vacant with us, for example, at Pentecost. The list of students admitted to orders is called on the Friflay morning before Pentecost Siinda}\ Those students called to orders, and all the students, attend class up till the preceding day. As to those called to orders, of course their whole minds are concentrated in that most important affair. The retreat commences on Satur- day, in the evening, and there is, during that retreat, a constant succession of spiritual exer- cises, and unbroken silence until Wednesday. During Wednesda}", Thursday. Friday, i and Saturday, the dift’erent orders are conferred. That week, so far from being a vacant i week, is, for a large proportion of the students, a very heavy Aveek. 29. Do jmu think longer notice should be given to those students who are to be called to orders ? — No ; but I mention this as an answer to what might occur to you, that this non-class time was a time for relaxation. I think, in one word, from my actual obser- vation and experience of the house, as a student and as a professor, under different systems, under the old, and when the}' had those vacant days, and now w’hen they have not, that the time for study, during the regular stud}' days, ought not to be abridged, or abridged but j very little ; but I Avould give them a considerable number of vacant days. I would be j very liberal in giving vacant days, and half vacant days, and just bring back the usage of , the College in this respect to Avhat it -was when I was a young student. j 30. When was that ? — I entered the College in 1829. I was in the first batch ofeman- | cipated students, and I continued for six years in my ordinary course. I was rivo years I on the Dunboyne Establishment ; I then went on the mission, and was engaged therein i aboA'e a year. ! 31. Wliat do 3 'ou mean by being on the mission ? — I was doing parochial dut}'. j 32. Does the residence of any of the students during the vacation entail the residence of anj' of the professors ? — No; if it did, there would be no vacation for us at all; but j tbere is a lecturer, J\[r. Stack, avIio attends them, and lectures in elocution and delivei'}’. ' lie gives them lectures for one hour in the day, during six weeks of the summer vacation i one hour on the senior side, and an hour on the junior side. _ j 33. Is Latin the language of }'our lectures ? — Speaking of the lectures, as distinct from | the interrogation and answering of the students (our system comi)rising both), in beginning the question, the more technical parts of it I express in Latin, and I convey those parts that I think the students would be less able to understand, unless given in a veiy plain way, in English. Then I require the students, cvhile we are confined to dogmatic theo- logy, to give theii’ proofs of the proposition in Latin. If I find, however, that a student MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 77 labours too hurd, and the matter is too difficult, and that he has not the facility of ex[)ressing himself in Ijatin, I let him speak in English, hut discouraging it as much as possible. 'I'hen I give the olpection to him generallj" in the form of a s}dlogism ; I hardly ever put a text of script\irc into a syllogism. I give the objection, and lie tabes up the syllogism and answers. lie gives the solution briefly in Latin, then I let him talk as much as he likes in English, if he wishes to explain himself more fully. In .short, Latin is the regular language for my lectui’e and answering, but I speak in English, and let them do it as often as it is expedient on my part for them, and on their part for themselves. :il. The part which is in prelection is all in English, is it not? — No; I rather think I lecture more in English than most of the professors do, or at least used to do. Ev('ry one has his own way. I leidure in Latin on questions on which it is difficult for a person, by reason of the purely theological ideas and technical phraseology, to exj)ress himself in plain English ; the English should be a kind of Latinized English. I generally giv(‘, in a l)rief way, my own ideas first in Tiatin, then I evolve them, explain tliem, and illustrate them, in English. In one word, I do in that way whatever I think is most useful for the class. bo. In moral theology, in applying religion to human conduct as distinguished rather from the statement of doctrine, do you use Tjatin also? — Rather less in tliat than in the dogmatic, it is more of a practical nature ; and because it is a matter that requires to be aiqn'ehended so as to be easily acted upon in practice, therefore the students should have the clearest ideas of what they are to do in such and such cases. b(t. Ill quotations from Scripture, you probably quote tiie Vulgate? — Always; but in minor details we do not hold that the Vulgate is immaculate by any means. All we are bound to believe about it is, that it contains no error in point of faith or morals, or in any matter of moment. We sometimes follow the Greek in preference. b7. In considering how far these lectures in moral theology would assist the students in preparing for preaching on the subject of human conduct, I presume that, in preaching, the English or the Irish version of the Scriptures would be referred to ? — The English version.* 38. If they understand English, the preacher would quote in English, and if they understood Irish in Irish? — They read in the Scripture class the most important parts of the New Testament ; they may read out of the Vulgate or out of the English transla- tion, but they have to explain it in English : they are habituated, then, to the quoting of Scripture in the English language. Every thing cannot be done by the professor, but I recollect several years ago, in the theology class, I recommended to them what was my own practice for many years, namely, never to let a day pass witliout spending some time — say, between night prayer and going to rest — in reading two or three chapters in the Bible. I have often since recommended this practice. Of course there are students who will not do this — who will do nothing but what they are just bound to do ; but zealous men, I am sure, read a great deal of the Scriptures. 39. It has l)een suggested that there is not sufficient prepai’ation in Maynooth of the future clergymen in the practice of reading and delivering sermons, it was Avith reference to that that my question rather Avas put as to the use of quotations in English in moral theology? — In moral theology Ave have not so much ScrixAture as in the dogmatic. The dogmatic is engaged, for the most part, about speculative doctrines : the moral is engaged about the XArincix)les of moral conduct, their exposition and ajAplication ; and an immense ]Aortion of that science is regulated not so much by ScrixAture as by human reason ; for example, in treating of restitution, after we x^i’ove the necessitj'- of restitution from the Scriptures, Ave go on to investigate moral cases, and all from reason, or from ecclesiastical laAA's, Avhen they come in, and these matters are oxien to ecclesiastical legislation. So, in like manner, in the treatise of Daa's. We have no definition of laAv in Scripture. We liave nothing in Scrixiture, or it is but inferentially contained therein, about the necessity of clear promulgation on the pfi^i't of a laAV that it should bind — nothing about AA'hether strangers are bound by the laAv of the XAhice through Avhich they pass, and so on. Our moral theology, x’l’operly so called, is different from Avhat Ave call ascetic theolog}^ and we do not consider xAi’eaching as coming exactly under the title of theology. Moral theology concerns the x^i’inciples of duty and conduct. Now a x^i’eacher requires not merely to deal Avith the principles of conduct, but also to enforce them by exhortation, by descriptions of the sources, the x>rogress, the consequences, the xienalties, the remedies of sin, and many other matters. 40. You look upon moral theology more as an exposition of tlie law ? — Yes. Moral theology contains the laAv that is to guide the XAeople, and to be pi'eached to them, but not in the shape in which it is to be x>reached. Preaching is to moral theology someAA'hat as a xiaraphrase and commentary are to a text. 41. Is it not a fact that a xierson might leave Maynooth without ever lia\nng received any instruction in preaching, or ever having preached a sermon himself? — Certainly not. Eacli of the dmnity students preaches one sermon in the year, so far as the number of students does not exceed the number of Sundays in the year. There are four sermons preached by the divinity students each Sunday, and the Dunbojme students preach on the • Note subsequently added In some parts of JIunster and Connaufiht a knowledge of the Irish language is still absolutely necessary for a missionary priest, in order to due instruction. When sermons are preached in those districts in the Irish language, of course the Scriptures are quoted in that language. I perceiA-e (as appears from Question 39,) that, at the moment of ansAvering, I did not catch the exact purport of the present interrogatory. llt/i October, 1853. 7 . Rev. P. Murray, I). D. l.atin less used in clas.s of moral thea- logy. Version of Scripture used ill preaching. Witness’s recom- mendation as to reading of Scripture. Instruction in preaching. 78 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. ll.* For example, there is no real connexion between the treatise De Relif/ione and De Triuiiate, except that natural affinity that exists between all the dogmas of revelation and between different por- tions of dogmatic and moral theology. 69. Have you any house treatises or College text-books for your course of lectures ? — We have the treatises written by Delahogue, formerly professor in the College, which com- prise only a portion of the course; and for the other portion, on which Delahogue has not written, we have had treatises Avritten by Bailly, a French clergyman, and composed towards the close of the last century. Those treatises continued to be our class-books until last -Tanuary or February. Baill}' having been put on the liide.v E.rparr/uioriu.'i at Rome, was set aside by the Trustees. At that time the Trustees desii’ed the Professors of Theology and the Iffesident to draw up a Report to be presented to the next Board as to what Avorks they Avould recommend for class-books instead of Bailly. 70. Do you think theology, as a science, is improving in the clearness of its demonstrations, the better order of stating facts, and in attaching a proper degree of importance to different matters? — I do not knoAv Avhether you may call it an improvement or not; undoubtedly theology, like every thing else that is concerned witli the ever- shifting opinions and institutions of men in this changing Avorld, must change, and is, from age to age, changing in its outward aspect. For example, in dogmatic questions, recording as neAV opposition in new forms rises up, the doctrine must be put forth in another shape to meet those neiv forms. As to moral questions, Avhere there are different usages, and different laAvs, and different states or degrees of liberty or restraint in human action, and soforth, the details and practical application of principles in themseh'cs unchanged must be changed according to the change of circumstances. 71. Is it desirable that the professors should Avrite books of instruction adapted to the present state of science ? — I think it on many grounds desirable that they should Avrite books. First of all, for the respectability of the College. I think it is not respectable that a large establishment should be begging books from little seminaries on the conti- nent. In (he second place, as I have stated in my Avritten ansAver, inasmuch as those foreign treatises are in so many respects filled with matter quite irrelevant for us, and also filled Avith matter Avhich Ave have to change, matter that is not applicable to the cii’- cumstances of the country, also as they contain opinions Avhich the generality of the May- nooth professors do not ordinarily teach, I think, for those reasons, we should have a neAV course of theology carefully composed b}’ ourselves. , 72. The Commissioners are aware that you are Avilling to undertake the lahour. Do you think a sufficient number of other professors would undertake the labour, it they had i sufficient time ? — I have not the least doubt they would ; and I would long ago liaA'e | undertaken and prosecuted the labour, and hardly a year has passed since I became Pro- j • Nnlc suhacquenth/ added. — T speak of trc.atise compared -n-ith treatise, not of portions of the same treatise ; compared Avitli each other. Sometimes one treatise i>resupposes another : thus, in the treatise De Ecclesia, the authenticity, (t c., of the Bible is supposed. But those points may he supposed, as the controversies in tliat treatise are with opponents Avho not only admit, but maintain them. jMIXUTES of evidence. 81 fessor of Theology that I did not make some attempt to l)egiii some tract, but T always had to give it up. For example, as I think I stated in my written evidence, I began to teach the treatise J^e Ecc/csia for the first time eleven j’ears ago. I began then to take notes, proposing to write a copious treatise on the Church, which I might afterwards abridge as a class-book for the students. 1 turned my attention to it ever since then, and I have never, to this day, been able to make up more than some scattered notes, a few pregnant ones, but scattered, on that subject, owing to tlie constant yearly, monthly, ■weekly, and daily jiressure of 1113 ' occupations as professor. I have very often given vacant weeks and vacant da 3 ’s, a great part of the long vacation in the summer, to these occupa- tions, and I have been obliged to give them up for want of physical powei’, after the labour of the year, to prosecute the)n. Last year I taught tlie treatise J)e Graiia, on wliich Bailly’s now superseded treatise had been the class-book. I proposed to myself to write a short treatise, or rather to get up the materials for one. I sat down to work with a dogged determination of giving up every other occupation, and even ])rolonging the time of teaching that treatise as far as I could, in order to get an opportunity of taking copious notes, to be ultimately expanded and arranged iiitc; a book. 1 went on with tliat for a couple of weeks, but I had to give ign 71 . 5 . Do you think that priests, notwithstanding their occupations in the country, would generall}' study theolog}", after the}’’ went into the mission with more zeal, if they pos- sessed on each subject a book which the}’’ could rel}^ upon as giving an authentic account of the present state of theology ? — I have no doubt that the fact of our having had class- books which it was our business rather to correct and abridge here, and fill np there, and ever}' way modify, has been one great obstacle, on the part of many priests, to carrying on the study of theology on the mission. Our lectures are not printed, and our class-books are so in little more than name. The result has been, tliat the clergy who studied in IMaynooth have not the course which they learned in the College before them. If they had class-books written by us, and, therefore, with which our oral expositions Avould better correspond, those books would serve afterwards to refer to and to refresh their memories. 71. It Avas the case, AA'as it not, in the earlier histoi'y of the College, as far as theology was concerned, that the professor had his oAvn class-book, and taught it ? — This Avas the case much more so tlian now ; and I know that the old clergvmen Avho studied in Ma}'- nooth had decidedly better book knoAAdedge — that sort of knoAvledge Avhich men liaA-e avIio read one book, and knoAv that one book* — than the clerg}nnen of the same abilities have of the course since that time. 75. Hoav many years is it since Dr. Delahogue’s treatises Avere written ? — I cannot state the exact year or years of their composition. The}' Avere Avritten subsequently to his coming to the College, but Avritten at different times. The editions I have of his Avorks are later editions. 70. Do you recollect when he became Emeritus Professor? — This happened before I became a student. He had been dead some years l)efore I entered the College. 77. He Avas a French refugee divine, Avas he not? — Yes, he AA'as a FelloAv of the Sor- bonne, and, I believe, a professor there. At the time of the first French Kevolution he was obliged to quit France ; he subsequently became professor in the College of Maynooth. 78. He had signed, I presume, the declarations which were required then of the French clergy? — I have no particular knoAA'ledge of that. I suppose he did Avhat Avas required of the rest. 79. You are, of course, generally aware of the contents of Dr. Delahogue’s works on dogmatic theology ? — I cannot say I have read his treaUses very closely of late years, but I knoAV tolerably well the doctrines he teaches. 80. x\re the doctrines of Dr. Delahogue, as to the liberties of the Church, those Avhich are still taught at IMaynooth ? — That is a large question. I do not know that Dr. Dela- hogue has entered into the question of the liberties of the Clmrch in any of his treatises. 81. Dr. Delahogue, in his treatise “ Ee Ecclesia,” maintains that the Pope has no right to interfere, directly or indirectly, with the civil or temporal rights of sovereigns ? — Yes. 8?. Wliatis the doctrine taught at IMaynooth ?— The doctrine of Dr. Delahogue, on the subject of the temporal poAA^er of the Pope, so far as I knoAv, has been the doctrine ahvays taught by the Professors of Theology at IMaynooth. It has been the doctrine invariably taught by me Avhen I have touched upon the question. 89. "Will you state, fully and explicitly, Avhat is the doctrine you teach upon the power of the Pope, and the authority of the Pope in temporal matters, and Avhat is the distinc- tion Avhich you draw between temporal and spiritual matters ? — With regard to the dis- tinction between spiritual and temporal, Avhich must precede the question of tlie poAver I of the Pope as to the one or the other, I Avill give the idea, in a general Avay, of Avhat I understand by spiritual things, and Avhat by temporal things — Avhat I understand by I spiritual poAver, and Avhat by temporal poAver. The Avord “ spiritual” has different mean- ings, but, as opposed to “temporal,” all those things are spiritual, the proper and imme- diate end of which is the sanctification of man, the fitting him for the attainment of his supernatural end in a beatified life hereafter ; such as divine grace, for example, the sacraments, prayer, and so forth. Things spiritual, in this sense, are opposed to temporal, not to material things. Some things are purely, and in their essence, spiritual — such as ^ Note snlutequenthi added . — Tho French professors ^vho taught formerly in Maj-nooth followed the method and doc- trine of Bailly’s floral Theology fur more closely than the theological professors of recent times. The inclination to Riyorism in moral decisions was far stronger on the part of the former than it is on the i^art of the latter. m nik Ocloher, 18D3. ~i7 Itev. P. Murray, d.d. Instance in the case of witness personally Advantage to priests in the mission of having authentic class-books. Dr. Delahogue’s treatises. Ilis doctrine as to temporal power in- variably taught by witness. Authority of the Pope in temp)orals, and distinction be- tween matters spiri- tual and matters temporal. 82 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. VMb Ortohcr, 1853 . Kev. P. Murray, D.D. Dictinction between matters spiritual and matters temporal. Temporal power direct and indirect. Spiritual power. Autliority of the Pope m matters political, bearing on the welfare of the Church. Authority of the Pope in elections. Spiritual relations of temporal things. Divine grace, tlie virtues of faitli, hope, and charity, vhich are altogether supernatural. Some things are not essentially spiritual, hut are made so by special dedication or conse- cration for spiritual ends — such as a church or a chalice, which are consecrated and set apart for the service and worship of God. 'I'lien, these latter kinds of spiritual things are said to be of a mixed nature. A chalice consists of silver or gold, and so far it is temporal, and may be bought and sold; it is consecrated, and so far it is a spiritual thing, and cannot be bought or sold.* By temporal things I understand all those things whose proper and immediate end or function is, not the sanctification of man, but something connected with the affairs of this world or human life and society. Thus, for example, the British con- stitution is a temporal thing ; a museum, the two houses of parliament, and the laws enacted therein, are all temporal. All those things are for the well-being of society, con- sidered as merely human society. And here I should observe that there is a distinction made by theologians between th.e^/i//is operis ^ — that is, the end to which the thing itself is destined of its own nature, and antecedent to any view or purpose I may liave regarding it — and finis operantis — that is, the end which I have in view in performing any work ; and this is altogether distinct, and may be different from, or even opposed to the end of the work itself. The end of the building of a church is to promote divine worship, and the end of giving alms is to relieve the poor ; the end of preaching is to enlighten, move, and so forth ; and the end of the prayer of petition is to obtain God’s grace : there is the fnis vperis ; but I may build a church, or give alms, or preach, or pray, from a motive of vanity; there is the finis operantis. Now, in speaking of temporal and spiritual things, and the end of them, I speak of the finis operis, or of the end which a temporal thing is destined to attain from its own nature, and a spiritual thing from its own nature, otherwise the dis- tinction would be arbitrary, and depending on the motives of individuals. As to temporal and spiritual power, a twofold temporal power has been claimed for the Pope by different writers, namely, direct and indirect. The direct temporal power is that which he would have over temporal things, as temporal; the indirect tempbral power is that which he would have over temporal things, not in virtue of any temporal authority, but in vu'tue of a spiritual authorit}' , empowering him to dispose of temporals, when the good of religion would require it. Spiritual power is exercised over sj)iritual things, or the spiritual relations of temporal things. Things that are in themselves temporal, may have spiritual relations. Thus, for example, there may be a contract, which is of a merely temporal nature ; but, as it may be entered into, in accordance with the laws of justice, or against them, it has its moral rela- tions, and may be morallj^ good or morally bad.f Spiritual power has a purely spiritual end, and a purely spiritual sanction, and cannot enforce its decisions or laws, except b}' spiritual sanctions. I have always taught and held that the Pope has a purely spiritual power, that he has no temporal power, direct or indirect, divino. He has temporal power, just as any other potentate has it, and beyond that nothing direct or indirect. I, of course, hold and teach that he has a directive spiritual power, and a coercive spiritual power over all who are subject to him, and wdiich is admitted by those who believe in his authority, and disregarded by those who disbelieve in it. But this directive and coercive spiritual i)ower merely extends to direction or coercion in what purely appertains to the moral well-being of those over whom it is exercised, to the supernatural life here, and the supernatural end hereafter. 84. Would you conceive under these circumstances that the Pope would have any autho- rity to interfere in the political affairs of another countiy, even though those political affairs had a bearing upon the welfare of the Church ? — I hold that the Pope has no right to interfere in the temporal affairs of another countiy, whether they have a bearing upon the interests of the Church or not, further than this, that the Pope may hold an authori- tative opinion as to any xiroceeding, any institution, or anything of that sort, or issue directions regarding it, in its purely spiritual relations, and no further. 85. For instance, it might be of great importance, in his view of the interest of the Church, that one sovereign should succeed to a throne rather than another, would the Pope have any authority to interfere in that case ? — No authority whatever, jure divino, more than any other man. 80. In a country where the sovereignty is largety shared by the people, as in elections, it might be of great importance to the interests of the Church, in his view, that one colour or another should be given to the elections, would the Pope be considered to have any authority in influencing those elections directly or indireetty ? — I hold that the Pope has no authority in elections of a purely temporal character, such as elections for members to Parliament, none whatever to interfere directly or indirectly ; but, of course, the Pojie may give his opinion upon any matter, as any man may, and of course whatever the Pope says, whether I follow it or not, is, from his high position, entitled to respect, as the oiiinion of any other man holding a high position in the Church or the State is entitled to respect, though he may j)ronounce an opinion on things which he has no right to pronounce an oj^inion on, or interfere with, authoritatively. 87. In his spiritual character he would have no authority to interfere? — No. 88. Or aiyr authority over the consciences of Eoman Catholics as such ? — No, unless the matter were such as to involve a case of conscience, and then he would have authority to pronoimce on the morality of the act of the individual, on the act in its moral aspect. * Note subsequently added. — That is, the materials and workmanship may he bouRht and sold, in the same way as if 110 consecration had taken place. To take or give a higher price, on account of the consecration, would be simony. t Note subsequently added. — Tlds is illustrated more fuUy in the replies to some of the subsequent interrogatories. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. S3 !Meu’s actions, tlimigh in pni-el}’ tempoi-al affairs, are not therefore indifferent ; they may he against the divine law, or in accordance with it. Tims, eating and drinking are acts of a temporal nature ; but they are regulated by tlie law of God, and a man violates that law by indnlging to excess in either. So, buying and selling are temporal acts ; hnt they have their relations to the moral law, for a man may deceptively sell a defective arthde, or charge an exorbitant price, and so violate the jirinciples of commutative justice. Now, if I am going to do an act of this sort, the Pope has anthority to tell me that that act is right or it is wrong; but this is simply exercising his spiritual power, and he has no right to enforce his jndgment by an}’ teiipjoral sanction whatever. 8‘J. Ur by any spiritual consequence? — If I do a Avrong act he has the power to punish me for that, by spiritual punishment only. I will give another illustration — we hold that in the matter of money loans, to exact any money beyond the sum lent, in virtue of the loan, I'i nuiliii, is prohibited by the divine law. "Where there is not the title of lucrum cesaa/m, or dauumm cmerr/cus, or some other title admitted by theologians, such exaction is usurious and sinful. Now, suppose I am engaged as a usurer; I am a money lender, and I exact interest without any title, or an exorbitant interest, beyond what my title Avould justify, the Pojje can tell me, “ Yon are doing what is sinful— I have not control over your money, or the disposal of it ; you may get it and give it as yon please, so far as I am con- cerned ; but I say, if you take this usurious interest, you are doing what is unjust and sinful, and are bound to restitution.” Then the Pope has the poAver, if I persist, of punishing me, by the infliction of spiritual punishment. I am a priest, and if I })ractise usmy he can suspend me ; but that is a purely S})iritual authority, and does not affect, in any A\ ay, the temporal or cIa’iI relations of temporal things. 90. Supposing there Avas a political struggle, say. in this country, in which the temporal interests of the Church might be supposed to be concerned, Avould the Pope have a hold upon the conscience of a Homan Catholic ecclesiastic in instructing a layman Avhat course he might pursue. F or instance, in the case of Catholic Emancipation, could he have ordered thebishops to enforce, through the priests, by spiritual censures, a iiarticular course of conduct iqAon the electors ? — The ansAver to that question involves the consideration of some important prin- ciples. I must first state Avhat I hold to be the duties of electors, as determined by the appli- cation of the principles of moral theology, in order to put the doctrine Ai’hich I hold on the authority of the Pope, as to the enforcing of those duties, in a clear and plain light. There has been a good deal of erroneous opinion afloat on this subject, and I gave a special lecture on it last year to the students in my class. The question is not like that of appointing a grossly unfit person to an important office in church or state — for exam ■ pie, to be a bishop or a judge. As things are in these countries, A’oting at an election for a member of parliament is an entirely different thing. It is evident that the co-oj)era- tion of any elector in the enactment or repeal of any laAv is extremely small, doubtful, and remote. The case mentioned — that of Catholic Emancipation, is perhaps about the stiongest that could Avell be put. There are two candidates, one opposed to Emanci- pation, the other for it. Undoubtedly the Homan Catholic should Ante for the candidate who Avill be for promoting the temporal advantage of his Church.* But the question is, whether he is bound, or whether any spiritual authority could bind him so to vote in everi/ case. Noav, I say that the elector is not bound to vote for the candidate he aa'ouM prefer, — that he may, without sin, vote for the candidate opposed to Emancipation, if he has just cause for doing so, if he has good grounds for believing that he Avill be turned out of his holding, or otherwise seriously oppressed by his landlord, or that he Avill suffer any other grievous harm in consequeirce of his voting otherwise. And I conceive that no priest, or bishop, or Pope, could compel that man, iir such circumstances, to vote for the Emanci- pation candidate. Such is my deliberate opinion, and this is the theological reasoning on Avhich I ground it. It is never laAvful for me to do a thing in itself sinful, to perform an act that is itself a sin. It is never laAvful for me to co-operate, directly and formally, in the commission of a sinful act, such as to persuade a man to commit murder, or to give him money for the purpose, or to influence or moA’e his Avill in any Avay thereto. If I do a thing in itself harmless, but from Avhich another takes occasion to do a sinful act, it is never lawful for me to approve, internally or externally, of that sinful act, to desire or intend it. But it is laAApul for me to do an act in itself good or indifferent, from which 1 aiiother, of his OAvn free Avill, takes occasion to do Avhat is wrong, 2 >i'ovided I do not approve of, or intend, or desire his act, and provided I have a reasonable cause for doing my own act. Noav, I vote for a certain candidate to become a member of parliament. That is an act in itself perfectly indifferent. He may vote right, or he may vote AA’rong; but my A’ote to get him into parliament is not his vote on any measure before parliament. I, by voting for him, co-operate to his giving a bad vote ; but the co-operation is quite indirect, and very remote. It is his oavu malice, if I may so phrase it, or his OAvn free will, that is the cause of that vote, that leads him to give it. All theologians hold that, on sufficient cause, I may co-operate in that remote, indirect w’ay, to the evil act of ; * Note stibsequrnih/ added. — That is, he should so vote, if there be no special reason for the contrary. This con- I dition is supposed liere, as being sufficiently intimated in what immediately folloAvs in the present ansAver. In- deed it forms the ground- work of much of Avhat is so distinctly insisted on in the ansAA-ers to subsequent interro- gatories, as Avell as to the present. The condition Avould enter not only in the case of grave incommodum, or serious harm, stated by and by, but also in the case Avhere the aboA'e-named temporal advantage Avoidd be no I spiritual advantage, or, Avorsc still, injiirious to tlie interests of religion. A state endoAvment of our bishops and priests in Ireland Avould be a very decided temporal advantage ; but many people say — whether rightly or ■Wrongly is immaterial at present — that it Avould be attended Avith os decided spuitual disadvantages. In their vicAv of the matter it is pretty clear what a voter is not bound to do. llt/t October, 185’1, 7. IJev. r. Murray, i).D. Illustrations. Authority of the Pope to interfere, through clergy, in elections. Duty of electors according to prin- ciples of theology. Spiritual authority’ cannot change that duty. Exposition and ap- plication of theolo- gical principles. Si MAYXOOTH COMMISSIOX. 11 /A October, 1853, 7. Kev. P !Murr.ay,D.D. Aiiiilogous cases. A])iilication of prin- ciples resumed. Impropriety of denunciation. Extreme case in which interference would be proper. Even in such a case the voter should not be compelled by sj)iritual censure to give a vote to his own injury. ailotlier, bj* doing wlmt I know lie may take occasion from of doing something wrong.* If that doctrine were not admitted, human society could not go on ; affairs would come to a dead lock. ^ A vintner sells wine ; a numher of his customers drink too much of it. He sells me wine I take it home and get drunk with it. The act of selling is, in itself, indif- ferent, and I take occasion from it to get drunk. The vintner is not hound to give up selling wine.t So, a cutler sells knives, which some of his customers may use to kill themselves or other people. He does a harmless act, from which another man may take occasion to do an evil act; but his co-operation is only remote and indirect. 111. He could not sell a man a knife if he knew he was going to cut his throat with it ? — He could not do so without a very weighty reason ; hut if he was threatened with death unless he sold it, then he has a right to sell it.t He is only exercising his own liberty, and is not responsible for the evil consequences, which are the work of another. But to return to the original case — that of voting for a member of parliament. I give mj" vote to a cer- tain candidate. It I do not give it to him I shall he persecuted and oppressed. He makes a had use of that vote by voting on a side which I believe to he wrong. But I am not the cause ot that; I am not responsible; I merely co-operate in a remote and indirect way. I have stated tlie princijile as to indirect co-operation laid down in our moral theology,, and I conceive it is^ by that principle that the conduct of electors at elections is to be- guided. Ihe principle is sound, certain, and unquestioned. Now no ecclesiastical a’athorit}' has a right to command me to do a thing in temporal affairs, such as voting at these elections, which I am not bound to do by the juinciples of morality. 92. Y ould a clergyman be justified in denouncing it as sinful to vote for a particular candidate ? I think that any clergyman who denounces the people as guilty of sin for not voting for a particular candidate in those cases where thej’ cannot so vote without exposing themselves to great danger — any clergyman broaching such doctrine is not teaching in accordance with the first principles of a certain fixed and defined morality. That is my deal’ and firm opinion. 99. Ev'Cn though the candidate is sure to vote for the persecution of his own church ? — A"es, as persecution has been sometimes understood and clamoured about. I have known the cry of religious persecution to be raised for mere personal or party purposes, and about things that had nothing to do with religion, or were actually for the good of religion. 94. Supposing the elector were not exposed to any persecution, can the priest then denounce him? — No; I do not think it is proper to denounce individuals in any case. There is a great diffei’ence between a point that is immediately, and one that is but re- motelj^ connected with the interests of religion. Suppose a candidfite announced tliat he would vote for a new penal law which would prevent clergymen from officiating and dis- charging their proper functions — that is a case in which the priest could very properly exhort the people not to vote for that man. That is a case which comes so clearly within the province of religion, that I suppose no man could deny the right of the priest to Sjieak against the promotion of a measure so fatal to liis own church ; but in that case I do not believe a priest would act properl}- in compelling, by any spiritual censure, an elector to- vote against the promoters of such a measiu’e, where his so voting would be injurious to liimself.§ 95. According to your distinction, do you think that the danger of being obliged to pay the arrears of rent due is a yrave incommodiim or a Icve incummodtim, for that is all the * Note siibftcquenfh/ added. — I did not think it necessary to jjo into an exposition of the conditions required for the applic.ation of tlic princijile to v.arious cases. The follorving extract from one of our tlieologians exhibits the general principles brieliy and pithily; — “An liceat alterius peecato ra.aterialiter co-operari? Heap. Co-operari tantum materialiter, suhuiinistrando tantiim inateriam et facultatem peccandi, vel exhibendo objectuin, licet, si sequentes conditiones adsint : 1. Si tiium opus vel co-operatio sit secundum se bona, vel saltern indifferens. 2. Si bona iiitentione et rationibili ex causa fiat, et non lit juves alterum peccarc. 3. Si alterius peccatum, ini- pedire nequeas, .aut saltern non tenearis propter causam rationabilem. Circa quam [causam rationabilem], notanfc Sanchez et La}-man. ctsi ejus gravitas certa regula definiri nequeat, sed prudentis judicio metienda sit; t.antd t.amen graviorem roquiri, 1. quanto gravius est peccatum cujus occasio datur; 2. quanto probabilius est te non co-operantc alterum non peccaturum, aut quanto certior est etfectus peccati ; 3. quanto propinquius tua co-opera- tio peccatum attingit; 4. quanto minus juris habeas ad tale opus ; .5. denique quanto magis peccatum cunijus- titia pugnat, idque propter damnum tertii.’’ — Euserabaum apud S. Alphons. L. 3. n. 59. edit. Ihilitj. t S'ots subscqiienth/ added. — “An liceat cau]iouibus vendere viiiiim iis quos ebriandos praevident ? Excu* sat eos r. Concilia ex metii mortis aut inutilationis Probabilius tameu niihi videtur dicendum . . . . quod caupones, satis excusentur ob metum cujuscumque gravis d.amni, putii si alias notabilitcr la-dcren- tur ex diminutione emptorum. Patio, quia, cum nullum eo casu grave damnum temporale obveniat se inebria- turo, charitas non obligat cum gravi incommodo peccatum illius vitare. Et idem dico . . . de proebente carnes comesturis in die vetito." — S. Alphons. ibid. n. (i9. r Note sidtsequenthj added. — S. Alphonsus says {Homo Apo^tol. t. 10, n. 6(5) that theologians speak very con- fusedly on this case. Comparing together different portions of his own theological writings, he is anything at all but clear on it himself. Eor in tlie book referred to in last note, n. 76, and again L. 4, n. 671, he i)lainly holds the decision given above; while in the passage just referred to in the Homo ApostoUcus, he as plainly holds the contrary. On again considering the case leisurely, I still adhere to the decision given in my oral answer. But quisque siio sc/isu ahundet — .whatever decision may be adopted as to this particular case, (which was introduced merely in illustration of a general principle about which no doubt exists,) is manifestly of no moment as to the object of the Commissioners in proposing the main question; and 1 should be only beating up “the dust of the schools” about their ears if I entered farther into it here. Extract from § Note auhsequently added The following extract from the diocesan statutes, drawn up in 1831 by the Roman diocesan statutes of Catholic bishops of Leinster, and promulgated in each diocese of the xirovince, will show how far person.al denun- Leinster as to public ciations of any kind or on any ground woiilil be, in that iirovince, in accordance with the local ecclesiastical denunciations by the regulations; — “ !Meminerint sacerdotes, illis nunquam sub aliqiio pratextu licere excommunicationem .aut alias clergy. censuras contra aliquem ferre, aut etiam co/nminari: et multo minus licere maledicta aut imprccationes invocare. Xonnunquam quidem necesse videtur quosdam obduratos et contumaces peccatores dure increpare; seJ hoc ut palatn fiat omniuo vetatiir, nisi delicta eorum sint notoria; et tunc etiam districte prohibemus, ne s.acerdos ullus audeat eos aut nomine aut aliquo indicia vel circundocutione designate, sine expressa licentia Episcopi aut Vicarii Generalis.” — Statut. Diceces. cap. 16. A similar prohibition, in nearly the same words, is contained in the diocesan statutes promulgated three \-ears later in every diocese of the province of Ulster. T he only copy m my possession of any diocesan statutes of that province is that of the diocese of Down and Connor. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 85 landlord can do? — lie can turn tlicm out; and does so sometimes. I will put this matter of the ollice, and end, and limits of the spiritual power in another liglit. W are, in this world, to work for a better, and our deliberate actions, even in temiioral concerns, may liave a moral asi^ect.* They may be wrong or right ; and as the Pope and tlie clergy are to direct tlie faithful in what is morally right, of course, they can direct them in temporal matters, so far as they have a moral aspect, as well as in spiritual matters. If you deny a spiritual or moral aspect or relation to temporal things, you relegate religion, religious obligation, moral responsibility, from the daily offices of human life. Take the case of elections : there are certain moral duties connected with them, and certain principles of morality by which these duties are regulated. The Pope has a right to direct and to tell mo what is morally wrong, and enforce his teaching by spiritual sancticvis ;t but he has no right to make a law, and tell me that 1 should vote for this person or the other where I am not bound to vote for him by the laws of morality. i\gain, suppose in a contract of buying and selling, which is a temporal thing, I sell a horse that has some fault or defect, which renders him not worth and I, concealing this fault, sell him for t'lOO — au 3 " other article that can be bought and sold will do for illustration as well as the horse — I am guilty of a violation of justice. 1, as a priest, have no right to interfere with a man in buying and selling a horse, but I have a right to say to him, you have been guilty of a gross violation of the law of God, and you must make restitution for it; but I cannot compel you in any other way than bj' advice, exhortation, or at the very utmost by inflict- ing spiritual i^enalties. 0(5. In that case it is with the injustice that the priest deals, not with the temporal act ? — Exactly so. It is simply with the morality of the act that the Pope or priest would deal. I am now telling the Commissioners what I believe to be the theological principles on this matter. I have observed that of late years a great deal has been said about people being bound under pain of sin, and that they would be traitors to their religion, and so forth, if the}" did not vote for such a man. Veiy often, indeed general!}', religion liad nothing to do with the business. I thought it iny duty, in lecturing the young men Avho were so soon to become priests, to speak to them in a calm, paternal, and reason- ing tone, on this subject. I told them, last year, the substance of what I have been saying, but enforced and developed at much greater length. Gentlemen, I said to tliem, if you go into a parish, and find that there is a portion of your flock there who, if they' vote for the popular, the liberal candidate, will be exposed to serious consequences, I tell ymu that it is not only not your duty to compel them to vote so, but it is your duty not to compel them ; and, perhaps, it may be vour diity to tell them that they are not bound to sacrifice themselves for some imaf/iimri/ public good, the reali- zation of which may be impracticable, or if practicable, to which they would contribute not one hundred thousandth part. 1)7. Do you enter into subjects of this nature in the course of your communication with the students ? — Yes, I do. 98. The students pass almost immediately from your course into the mission, do they not ? — Yes, immediately, unless those that go on to the Dunboyne Establishment. 'When I was over the second class I lectured them in a similar way, as a considerable number pass each year from that class to the mission. Still more now, as the students of the first class are all surety going out on the mission, save those who will be appointed to the Dun- boyne Establishment. 99. Do you ever lecture the students of your class as to the propriety of clergymen interfering in politics ? — I have done so occasionally : I did so last year. But it is a matter of very great delicacy for me. The bishops of some of the students take a promi- nent part in politics. Then, perhaps, some of our body may hold views opposed to mine. So there is danger of giving offence, and furnisliing an occasion to the excitement of fac- tion or party feeling. Again, it is hard to speak p)lainly on such a subject, how'ever guardedty one may express himself, without seeming to allude to particular individuals or parties. Now all these are things I have always made it a, rule strictly and studiously to avoid in addressing the students from the chair. I will tell you briell.y, as well as I can recollect, what I said to tlie students of my class last j'ear. I spoke for a wffiole hour’s lecture, I believe longer, on the subject. I began bj' protesting that nothing was farther from mj' mind than to give anv offence to any human being ; but that, owing to circum- stances to which I alluded, I thought I w'ould be doing them and the interests of religion good service by delivering my matured judgment on priests mingling in political agitation. I gave my oj)inion most decidedty as to me certain, but not as a matter of defined doctrine. I told them to judge of my reasons, which I gave them, and to take up my view' on the strength of them, if they appeared conclusive. I then told them, in the first place, that wliatever might be thought of the general (piestion, it appeared peculiarly unbecoming, and for several reasons, w'hich I enumerated, peculiarly improper for j'oung clergymen, just raw from college, to plunge into politics ; that if thev ever did so, they should at least w'ait for some j'ears, and to take time to let their juvenile ardour cool dowm, and look about them and see in all its bearings what they were about to engage in. I told them, in the * ^ote sub^equentli/ added. — Tliere is an old dispute among the Scotists and Thomists on the question, Vtnim dentiir actus indifferentes in individuo ? It is a very pretty question in its way ; but I imagine Her Alajesty’s Com- missioners would not care to hear anything more about it. t ityte subsequcnth/ added. — Thus, for example, it is morally wrong, not only a violation of the law of the land but ot the law of God, to take a bribe from a candidate and vote for his opponent. The Pope could decide — no decision is needed, for the case is almost as plain as a first principle — but he could decide formally that such an act IS sinful, and say that whoever perpetrates it will incur such and such spiritual penalties. Wlh October, IS53. 7 . Kev. P. Murray, D.D. Further illustrations of the sjiiritual rela- tion of temporal actions. Politico-religious questions — witness’s opinion of tliem in general. Teaching of witness as to jiropriety of clergymen interfer- ing in politics. 86 MAYNOOTIi COMMISSION. 1 U/i Oc/oher, 1853. Rct". P. Murray, d.d. Address of witness to his pupils on tlie Rubjeet of intcr- ferenee in politics. The rule as to clergymen taking part in political agitation. Proportions of clergymen who ha^'o taken such intem- perate part in politics who were educated in Maynooth. Declaration of the late Pope as to uniform ctf the Church on duty of clergy in reference to temporal affairs, &c.J second place, tliat tvliatever again might be said on the general question, one thing was to me evident, that anytliing in the shape of violent language or gestures, anything like domineering or carrying a point by main force and clamour, was exceedingly opposed to the spirit of the Christian priesthood. I begged of them to avoid playing the tyrant in everything as well as in i)olitics. I told them that clerical tyranny, especially in secular affairs, always does great injury to religion ; tliat it is so opposed to the meekness whicli ought to he among our chief characteristics, and without which our ministerial labours will lose much of their fruit. I remember to have quoted several cogent texts of Scripture and other authorities on this point. I told them that among the pernicious effects of this clerical despotism were, that it put a powerful argument into the mouths of the enemies of the Church ; that it shocked and scandalized a very large number of tlie best Catholics ; that it rankled in the breasts of thinking Catholics, good, religious men, wlio dissent from the views of the individual priest, who think they have as good a right to act on their views as he has on his, and who are galled beyond measure in being forced into another direction by one whom they probably surpass in political abilities, experience, and knowledge, and fully equal in zeal for the interests of the Church and the people. I certainly did speak as strongly on this point as the judicial calmness and moderation of sentiment and language which ouolitical struggles, and considering the intensity of the popular movements of late years, and considering the operation of other causes to which I do not wish further to allude, I think that the Col- lege of Maynooth has been tolerably free from anything in the shape of political excite- ment, certainly from anything in the shape of public excitement among the students. lOG. Do you think that the tendency to exhibit traces of those feelings that prevail amongst the population from which the students come would be materially checked if their training commenced at an earlier age than seventeen, taking that as the average of their admission into the College ? — I am clearly of opinion, that if the students, previously to entering Maynooth, had been from an eailier period under proper training in some school or seminary set a]5art for the purpose, and possessing able, learned, zealous, and wise teachers, it would contribute most powerfully to form their characters in a more spiritual direction. 107. YMu mean spiritual training? — Yes, spiritual training and intellectual training. I use the word spiritual for general moral and religious training. 108. Are you acquainted with the system adopted in the petits seminairea in France? — No. I have heard a good deal of the early age at which they are put into those seminaries in France ; but from what I learn from persons Avho have studied there, the Commissioners ought to be very cautious in recommending anything as to this country upon the basis of the French ideas and French habits. I am aware that there is a roughness, and wildness, and impetuosity about the Irish character ; bitt one thing I know, and am sure of, that innocence and purity of heart exist in the candidates for Maynooth to a degree that, if what I have heard from the best authority be true, is utterly unknown among the mass of the younger population either of France or Italy. 109. Still you think that a more early spiritual training somewhere would be useful towards forming their sphitual character ? — I think so decidedly ; but I merely }ueant by my late observation to guard against confounding the necessity that may exist for a better spiritual training here Avith the mfinitely greater necessity that exists for a training of a far more stringent character in the continental countries. 110. Can you state any instance in which political excitement has been directly dis- countenanced by the Maynooth authorities Avithin y our recollection ? — I can. I remember about the year 1842 or ’3, Avhen the repeal agitation was beginning to assume, or had already assumed a A'ery decided check in the coAUitry, that on one occasion the late Mr. O’Connell was driving down to some part of Connaugiit, through IMaynooth, Avhich is the thorough- fare from Dublin, in an open carriage. In the evening, during the recreation hour, a large body of the students got up on some eminence within the College walls, and cheered him , as he j)assed the road running AA’ithin the distance of a field from the walls of the College. . As soon as the late Dr. Montague, the then President, heard of this, he camedoAA'n himself I to the public hall, Avhere the students were all assembled, and reprimanded them in the ' strongest manner, and commanded them not to repeat any act of that sort, or show any political excitement, or get up any' political commotion in the College. Pie announced i that if he found any of them transgressing in this AA'ay he would have them punished I severely. ' 111. Is there any rule or regulation of the College respecting any part taken in politics ' by the students in the College to restrain them from doing so ? — There Avas a rule made in the y'ear 1847 by the Trustees, after some political excitement had occurred in the j College a feAv weeks before, prohibiting the req)etition of such scenes for the futirre, and prohibiting any movement whatever of a j>olitical natiu’e. Wlh October, 18.j3. 7 Kev. r. Murray, D.D. I’reparatory scliools. IIow far Maynooth reflects tlie tenden- cies, i)olitical and otlierwise, of the people. Training from an earlier period of life would contribute much to the forma- tion of a more spiri- tual character among the students. Instance of political excitement being dis- countenanced by the College authorities. 88 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. 1 1 th October, 1 853. Kev. P. JIurray.D.D. Lord NornianW’s visit to the College ill 1836. Alleged speech of a professor on that occasion. No professor in the College capable of e.xpressing such a sentiment. Moral Theology — Scavini. Present condition of the College as to house treatises in Theology. Condemnation of Bailly. Teaching in May- nooth as to matri- mony not affected by that condemnation. Teaching on the subject of marriage. Ili3. Do you believe that tlie spirit of that rule is faithfully observed ? — I have known no instance of an infraction of tbe letter of it since. 113. It is staled in a publication, that on a certain occasion when a liberal Lord Lieu- tenant visited tlie College, dinner and wine were given to the students, and that on Mr. O'Connell’s liealth being drunk, the most violent political language was used, together with the most unwarrantable abuse of Protestantism, one of the professors, in the course of his si“)eecb, having laid it down as a maxim, not contrary to any laws, human or divine, that, “ while w’e should love those who do us good, we are at perfect liberty to hate those w'ho injure us.” Are you actpiainted in any way with the circumstances there alluded to ? — I suppose an allusion is made to the occasion of Lord Normanby’s visit, in the year, I think, 183(i, on which occasion, I recollect the students got wine in the evening. I w'as one of the students on the Dunboyne Establishment at the time. I was'not present that evening at the entertainment, either because I w'as unwell, or from some other cause ; therefore, I have no personal recollection of what is stated in that publication. But of this I am sure that no professor at that time in the College, or now, would be capable of making such an abominable statement as that. I am quite sure of that. I am sure, on the other baud, that I never heard on any public occasion, (of course people talk of Protestant- ism that it is all wrong,) but I never beard upon any public occasion, when the students w'ere assembled together, any allusion whatever to Protestantism, or any bigotry of the kind stated. I do not recollect to have heard ]Mr. CCoiinell’s health proposed at any meeting of the students wdiilst I w'as a student. Since I have become a professor I have not had an opportunity of knowing whether it is j)roposed or not ; but if it were proposed I should think it natural if the students gave him a heartj' cheer as tbe great Emancipator.* 114. What is the house treatise at jiresent that you make use of in lecturing on moral theology ? — The house treatise at present is chietly taken from a short course wTitten by an Italian divine named Scavini. 115. PLuv long has it been adopted in tbe College ? — It lias been adopted in the College since last June. After Bailly had been indexed, the Board of Trustees set it aside as a class-book, and w'e were asked to draw up a report as to wdiat class-book we should recom- mend. The majority w'ere of opinion, I may say all of them were of opinion, that there was no one course suited to the College. I and others were of opinion that we should have class-books of our own composition. However, for the time being, as Scavini was thought the least unsuitable course, it was recommended to the Board, and the Board adopted it. Carriere’s small treatise on matrimony was also recommended on that subject, and not Scavini. The Board referred this recommendation back again for reconsideration, I suppose, on account of Carriere’s holding the opinion, that secular princes have the power of instituting diriment impediments. "We have, therefore, Scavini on all the portions of moral theology on which Delahogue has not written, with the exception of the matrimon}" tract — on that we have no tract as yet. In the dogmatic portion of the course on which Bailly was the class-book, we have “ Berrone De Gratia.” For the rest “ De Baptismo,” “ De Conlirmatione,” Ac., Ave have no class-book Avhatever. This is the position in Avhich w^e stand at present. TIG. Can you state the reasons why Baillj' was placed on the index? — No; except con- jecturally. 1 have no doubt, however, that he was placed on the index on account of some Gallican opinions, ])rincipally contained in his Church tract. The decrees of the index very rarely point out the passages objected to : they never state the reasons of the con- demnation of a book. I heard a story about the way in which the condemnation of Bailly Avas brought about. There Avas a professor of the Irish seminary in Baris, at Rome in the course of the preceding summer, and he had an intervicAV Avith the Bontiff; and in the course of the intervieAr his Holiness asked him what class-books in theology Avere used. Having learned that Bailly Avas the book, the Bope sent for it, and had it examined, and put on the index. This I heard from tolerably good authority. Bailly AATote two church tracts ; one is an abridged treatise Avhich is in bis ordinary compendious course ; the other is a larger Avork in tAvo volumes, which, so far as I knoAv, has not been condemned. I believe it is only his “ Cursus Theologicus,” in eight A'olumes, that has been condemned. I luiA'e no doubt that the condemned edition is that Avhich has been in use in France for the last tAventy years, and the treatise on matrimony, as Avell as some other treatises in that edition, is altogether different from the old edition, AA'lnch was the one used in Maynootb. 117. Docs tbe discontinuance of Bailhg and the adoption of Carriere affect the teaching at IMaynooth on the subject of marriage? — In no way so far as my teaebing is concerned. In truth Bailly Avas for many years but a nominal class-book. Since the abridgment of Carriei’e came out, that Avas, though not in name, yet in reality, the class-book. It is the best treatise that has appeared in the same compass “ De Matrimonio,” and Baillj^'s is about the worst. On every question I always taiight Avhat I conceived to be the fixed and defined doctrines of tlie Holy See. In matters AA’here there is nothing defined, of Avhich there is an abundance in the treatise “ De Matrimonio,” I have taught Avhat I conceived to be the more probable opinion. I did that before tbe condemnation of Bailly, and I do so still. 118. Y’ou haA’e stated that thereffias been no change whateA'er since the last iiiA'estiga- tion AA'ith respect to Maynooth, and that there is no change noAV in the teaching of the College upon these subjects from that AA’hich existed then ? — I cannot say so ; I do not knoAv the teaching at that time; I Avas not in the College then, and I iieAX-r read the report through ; I never read much of it, and it is many years since I read a page of it. *Notc itthsequenthj added A clieer for O'Connell in 1836 would have been for him as Emancipator. A cheer for him at a later period might have had a very ditferent meaning. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 89 119. "NVliiit is tlie edition of CaiTiere wliich is now in use on tlie subject of ninmage ? — As I said before, it is not a class-book witli us — it was only proposed by us, and the Trus- tees ro(piested us to re-consider it.* 1:20. Is it taught at Maynooth that a marriage celebrated according to the requirements of the municipal law between a Uoman Catholic man and a Protestant woman, but not according to the re(piirements of the Roman Catholic Church, is valid, so as to preclude the Roman Catholic man from contracting, during the lifetime of the woman, a marriage with a third party, according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church ? — Yes, if by the forms of tiie Roman Catholic Church is understood what was established at the Council of Trent, namely, that they should appear before the parish priest (paroc/ii/s), or some other priest authorized by him, and two witnesses. 121. What is the doctrine taught at Maynooth as to the marriage of a Roman Catholic with a Protestant?-- The doctrine taught at Maynooth is the certain doctrine which has been sulliciently settled by Benedict the XIV. for Holland, and Pius the VI. for Ireland. It is, that, in mixed communities, the law of clandestinity does not apply in the marriage of a Protestant and a Roman Catholic, and that such marriage is valid, though the parties do not appear before the parish priest. 122. Is it taught at Maynooth that a marriage celebrated in Ireland between two Roman Catholics, by a Roman Catholic clergyman, but not in conformity with the decrees of the Council of Trent, in respect of clandestinity, is a marriage valid, so as to preclude the par- ties, during the lifetime of each other, from contracting marriage with other parties ? — The impediment of clandestinity was first introduced by the Council of Trent ; it did not exist before. In framing the decree, the Council required that before it came into operation in any parish, it should be published there, and should only come into operation thirty days after the promulgation. That decree of the Council of Trent was }mblished a long time ago through the three provinces of Ulster, Munster, and Connaught, with the exception of the diocese of Galway, at what time I do not know ; it was not published in the province of Leinster till 1827. It is now the law over all Ireland; so that if two Roman Catholics many without going before a parish priest, or some other priest authorized by him, and two witnesses, the marriage is invalid. In other words, the impediment of clandestinit}' is now in force in all Ireland. 1213. So that the priest would not be entitled to plead a previous marriage of that nature as a bar to enabling him to refuse to marry the party who was engaged by this previous clandestine contract ? — So far as the validity of the previous marriage is concerned, he would not be authorized to refuse, for the previous marriage was invalid, and therefore if the party were married afterwards to another, this second marriage would be valid, if there existed no other impediment. But there might be other reasons for refusing to many him: for example, if the woman had been injured by the previous engagement, I should not marry him a second time without seeing that ample justice was done to her, by making reparation in some adequate way for the injury inflicted on her. 124. Would you consider that the previous ceremony, whether called marriage or not, amounted to such a pre-contract as would entitle you to refuse to perform the cere- monj' of marriage to another party ? — The clandestinity not only invalidates a contract so attempted, but has not even the efiect of a pre-contract or sponsalia; it has no canonical effect whatever. ]25. You have mentioned in the case you have supposed, of a Roman Catholic marriage invahd by reason of the Council of Trent, that if one person came before you acknowledging the previous marriage, you think yourself hound to exhort him to make reparation to the person whom he had abandoned, and you would not marry him unless it was done ? — Un- less that was done I apprehend he would be in truth committing a sin in marrying again. I not only would advise him to marry in a valid manner the former person, but I would oblige him to do so, unless there was some adequate reason against it. 120. Y"ou would oblige him as far as you could spirituallj' do so? — Y^es. 127. Before he could partake of the sacrament of marriage, is it not necessary that the parties should he absolved in what Roman Catholics conceive to be the sacrament of penance ? — It is necessary that he should be in a state of grace. 128. For that purpose, if the duty remained unfulfilled to the person with whom the first marriage would have taken place, woiild you not consider the party in an unfit state to enter into a second marriage ? — Most assuredly. 129. Then you would require him to put himself in that state before he partook of tlie sacrament of marriage ? — Y"es : but there might occur cases in which he would be exempt from the obligation of remarrying. I speak of that obligation per se, and that he would be bound to remany the woman validly, on account of the injury that would ensue to her from the invalid marriage — an injury commonly occui’ring in such cases; but an excep- tional case might arise — for examples if sJie had trepanned him into that marriage, or if she was a bad character, or if she had pretended that she was a person of high rank and it turned out she was no such thing, in such cases he would not be bound to remarry her. So, also, if she afterwards had committed fornication with another man, in that case he would not be bound to remarry her. All these cases are exceptional cases, in which * Note subsequently added I should have stated, however, that Carriere is in the hands of all the students, and the book principally read by them on matrimony. The edition used is some one subsequent to the first. The opinion regarding the power of secular princes is modified in all editions after the first. I may add, that I designedly absented myself from the meeting at which Scavini was recommended : I would not be a party in recommending any foreign treatises. ‘ n Uth October, 185:i. 7. "Rev. P. Murray, I). I). Impediment of claii- destinity docs not e.xist where marriage is l)Otwecn a Homan Catholic and a Protestant. Impediment of chui- destinity where both jj.arties are Homan Catholics. Decree as to clan- ilestinity now in force all over Ireland Marriage void for clandestinity has no effect as pre-contract or sponsaha. Practical course adopted where a person invalidly mar- ried, by reason of clandestinity, seeks to marry another person. E-xceptions to the rule obliging such person to validate his l)rcvious marriage. 90 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. llth Ocioher, 1853. there is a special reason exempting him from the natural obligation of remaiTying the ~~ woman whom he had invalidly married before, and thus repairing the injury suffered by her. E V P Miirra d d marriage by a priest of two Roman Cathohcs, ev. . . array, D.D. conformity with the decrees of the Coimcil of Trent, was vahd in point of Effect in such case law, and that therefore a second marriage would he bigamy, and a violation of the law, would of the validity of the that form an ingredient m determining you whether you would marry the parties a second accord^n 114. Then your opinion is, that the training from the earliest period that a hoy can receive training, ought to have regard to the ecclesiastical character which he is afterwards likel}' to till ? — I think that the earlier the period at which such training is commenced, so much the better for the formation of the clerical character. 115. You are acquainted with the preparatory establishment at Castleknock, are you not ? — Yes. 110. In Castleknock there is a lay department, is there not? — Laj' boys are educated there. I do not know that there is a distinct department for them. 117. At all events, Castleknock is the college in v.hich, not merely persons destined for the ecclesiastical state, but also those who are destined for lay professions, are educated? — Yes. 118. There is no objection, as far as your experience goes, to the system of training pursued there, having regard to the class of people who come from Castleknock to Maynooth? — Indeed, as far as I know them, I think they are well educated ; and if we had a number of such establishments through the country, it would be a gi-eat blessing indeed. 119. Therefore, there would be no serious objection to the intermixture which has been spokeir of? — By no means; no serious objectioir. 120. You wish that the young men should not come to you without having gone, pre- viously, through a civilizing process? — Yes ; I think it is impossible for us, if that is not the case, to accomplish that very important object. 121. The Very fact of their being assembled in such large numbers at Dilaynooth, is against the training of their manners, is it not ? — Yes ; I have no doubt of it. 122. In sevei’al of the diocesan seminaries, lay pupils are educated, are they not, as well as ecclesiastical? — Yes, they are. 128. Is that the case with the seminary at Carlow? — I believe so. 121. I believe it is so at Armagh ? — Yes ; it is generally so, I think, in our seminaries. 125. You have stated, in one of your answers, that you know three or four schools where young lads are educated for IMaynooth College, and you should say that the average expense of education in those schools is C‘15i). Does that expense include the expense of the whole course of prepar.atory education ? — Yes, that is what I meant. 129. How do you estimate that A 1 50 : it appears, for instance, that the stipend fora hoarder is A20 ? — I estimate it by the expense of each single year. I should say that an average of three or four years’ education is requisite for the preparation of a young lad for Maynooth College ; say he pays, during that time, ,i'20 or A'25 ; in some places, as for instance, Castleknock, t'30 per annum, and there are contingent expenses, which raise the gross amount to the average I have mentioned. 127. Y'hat do you estimate the charge at Carlow to be ? — I should say, for four or five years, not less than AT 50 or A200. 128. YTiat is the annual stipend at Carlow? — I cannot say precisely ; A25 or A30. 129. Are you aware that it was stated in the evidence given on the former Inquiry, that the charge at Carlow rvas 25 guineas a 3 "ear, besides extra expenses, travelling, and so forth? — I think that is about the sum. 180. A good man}" students are educated in day schools, are they not? — Yes, a great 1 number. 131. Do you think in IMaynooth sufficient attention is paid to the instruction of students . in Clmrch ceremonies? — I believe imovision has been made lately for increased instruction ; in that department. The deans have been directed to give formal lectures, at stated times, to the students on the Church services. 132. Is sufficient attention paid generally to the students, so as to form them into good preachers, and to facilitate preaching when they get out on their missions as clergymen ? — I Indeed I think there micht be an im]irovement in our system in th.at respect It seems I to me that our students do not get sufficient preparatory instruction for the discharge of That important dut}' at the time when they are most capable of understanding and appre- ciating it, that is, at a more advanced period of their course. There is not sufficient provision made at that time, I think, for training them to become useful and effective preachers. (htober, ISS!!. 8 . licv. Thomas Furlont: Necessity of prepa- ratory training. Eccle.siastical .semi- naries preferable. Castleknock. No serious objection to mixed system in preparatory educa- tion. Carlow — Armagl.. Expense of prepara- tory education. Carlow. Instruction at Maynooth in church ceremonies. Preaching. 0 98 MAYXOOTH C0:\niISS10N. I'llh October, 1833. 8 . Kev. Thos. Furlong. Training in tlie givingof catechetical instruction. Catechising in parish Church. Want of sufficient training in this re- spect a defect in Maynooth sj^stem. Sermons preached ^ by the students. Distinct class of sacred oratory desirable. 1-33. Ill fact, if a tdergyraau goes out of iMajiiooth ivltliont having a sufficient training in that particular, it makes him unwilling, does it not, to discharge that duty afterwards? — Naturally it does. Indeed I consider the establishment of a class of Sacred Eloipience, a desideratum in our system. The students would then be regularly' trained, and get pre- cise instruction in that department. 134. The Commissioners have been informed that it is the custom in other ecclesiastical colleges to train the students to give catecheticid instructions. Is that ever done in Maj'- nootli ? — It was done when I was a student, but it is not at present. There was a half hour devoted every week to it. Two students prepared each a catechetical instruction, or what might more properly be called an exliortation, which continued for a quarter of an hour; and at the end the Professor of Sacred Scripture made some critical remarks upon the discourses that had been delivered, and suggested some improvement in the matter or form of them. 135. Is that practice totally disused now? — It is altogether. 136. Do 3 "ou think it most desirable to have some provision made for that purpose? — Yes ; for it is one of the most important parts of a clergyman’s dutj'. 137. The Commissioners have been informed that in the seminary of St. Sulpice the students go to the parish churcli to catechise the children. Could that be done b}" the students in the last school of theology^ in Maynooth Avith advantage ? — It does not strike me as very practicable. 138. Do you think it would be a breacli of disciidine to allow them out of the College ? — No, by no means a breach of discipline. It would be more or less an interference with our system of discipline, and therefore it should be considered whether, Avhen the oppor- tunities of exercise are distributed amongst a large number of students, the advantage to be derived by each would be commensurate witli the inconvenience that would follow. 139. Assuming there is at present no instruction grten for the pm-pose of imparting a facilitjr in giving catechetical instruction, is "it not desirable that it should be done?— I think that it is in itself most desfoable. 140. Is it not an essential part of the priest’s duty to do it himself, or see it done by others ? — Yes. 141. As an essential part of the pastoral duty, is it taught at Maynooth? — j\[y opinion is, that a want of ijroper training for the disch arge of that duty' of the ministry is a defect in our sy'stem. AVhen I was Professor of Rlietoric, I frequently' adverted to the necessity of clergymen giA'ing the people simple, practical, solid instruction in their ordinary duties, and explained the method according to which it should be done. 142 Apply'ing myself to two parts of the priest’s duty — preaching or exhorting the con- gregation from the pulpit or from the altar, and giving catechetical instruction to the youth as they grow up. With respect to those two distinct portions of the pastoral function, what instruction of a practical character is given for the acquisition of the means of fulfil- ling either of those duties at May'nootli? — The matter of such instruction must be had from theology. As to the manner — in the English Class, I am sure instruction of that kind is given ; but the professor of th.at department Avill be better able on that head to inform the Commissioners. Similar instruction is giA'en, by^ the very' n.ature of the subject, in the Rhetoric Class. I have said, that a principal object Avith me, Avhen a professor in that class, was to inculcate the importance, and prescribe the mode of that kind of instruction. Afterwards the young men, during their divinity course, are obliged to prepare sermons, and to deliver them in public, and those sermons are mostly' of a very practical character, 143. How often? — There are four sermons each Sunday' during the year. The Dun- boyuie students preach on the principal festiA'aE'. There are four sermons each Sunday, and they are commented on at the conclusion by one of the students and a superior. 144. Is the instruction to AA'hich my question pointed supplied in any' other way' than in the English Class and the Rhetoric Class ? — I am not aAvare at present of any otlier. 145. Is it your opinion that it is inadequate to effect the object? — I think an additional class, in Avhich the precise object Avould be to give such instruction, AA'ould be most desirable. 14G. Do not you think it essential? — I consider it so desirable that I may' call it to be essential. 147. That is Avith a A'ieAV to preaching : giving instructions in the matter of sermons, in composition and diction — the putting of sermons together ? — The matter and the mode both. 148. AVith I’espect to acquiring a facility' of giA'ing catechetical instruction to youth, as contradistinguished from preaching to an adult or a mixed congregation, what instruction is given now in Alaynooth ? — Aly own idea is, that the sty'le of instruction that Avould be suited generally to the people is precisely' that that would be accommodated also to children, if not very young, that is, simply to explain the Christian doidrine in a clear and simple manner, AA'ithout using language or forms of expression bey'ond their compre- hension. 149. I applied my'self in my question entirely to the catechetical instruction of the young in inculcating the tenets of Christianity', and the tenets of the Roman Catholic faith in particular. Can that be so Avell acquired in any Avay' as by' frequent practice? — I think that practice is necessary' for acquii’ing a facility' ; more necessary' than mere theory'. 150. Does not it occur to you, if it could be done consistently' AA'ith discqdine, that it would be desirable to have the practice prevailing at Alaynooth which lArevads at St. Sulpice, namely', giving catechetical instruction to children who required it in the neighbourhood MLXUTE3 OF EVIDENCE. 99 of the College ? — I tliink it would bo most desirable to give them some such exercise ; but 1 suggest a (loul)t merely as to its ])racticability iu our College, because, iu such a largo commuuity, any thing that interferes with the ordinary movements of tlie macbiucry is calculated to disturb the uniform observance of discijdino. 1.51. How could the withdrawal of, for instance, si.x or eight students each Sunday, for an hour or two, to catechise in the chapel, interfere with the machinery or discipline of Maynooth ? — It so happens, that tlie tiine at which this exercise should bo performed is concurrent witli the tinm of vespers iu the College ; and in our community the idea ])rc- vails, and is strongly impressed upon us, that it is a very inconvenient thing that any member of the commuuity should be absent from those important duties of class, high mass, vespers, &c. 15'2. If the instruction whidi has been spoken of be important in the training of the students, could not an arrangement l)e made by which the observances at Maynooth could be accommodated to that practice of the Church ? — 1 think it could absolutely be done. 153. Would not the ])ractice be rather consistent with what is taught at Maynooth with respect to the duties to be afterwards practised by tlie ])riest ? — It would be perfectly con- sistent, but I Avas alluding to the repugnance which I think there is in our system to the introduction of any extrinsic function of that kind. 1.54. Is there any thing in that observance objectionable except the fact that it is extrin- sic ? — I do not knoAV that it would have a beuelicial influence on our discipline ; I think that the uniform attendance of the students at each duty, free from the interference of any other obligation, has a very salutary effect upon the discipline of the College. 155. IIow do you think the fact of administering catechetical instruction to children on a Sunday would have a contrary effect ? — You would have a number of students outside the precincts of the College, and not subject to the inspection of the superior at the time. 150. Would there be any objection to the dean going with them ? — 1 think that would bo practically impossible. 157. Would it be any personal inconvenience to the dean?— No. I think, however, it could not conveniently be done. 158. Do you mean that he could not bo spared for an hour or two on Sundays to attend the students in performing that duty. The question applies to students at an advanced period of their course, when they have attained a certain age and experience ; and would there be any material disturbance of the discipline at Maynooth by their performing that duty, learning that important part of their priestly functions by its practical exercise ? — 1 tliink that to send out a number of young men regularly, without any supervision whatever, might be attended with unpleasant consequences. 159. Would it be impossible to give that supeiwision if it were necessary? — Not strictly impossible ; but I think it would be so inconvenient, that you might deem it, morally speak- ing, impossible. IGO. What is the inconvenience to which you refer? — The inconvenience is this, that you should have a dean to superintend them who has his duties in the college to attend to at the same time ; he should be absent from his duties for an hour or two every Sunday, and such absence of the dean would be productive of inconvenience. IGl. There are several deans, a President, and a Vice-President ; could not some of them be spared from the College two hours on the Sunday morning ? — They have, as 1 liave said, their fixed duties to perform within the College. I do not say that it is absolutely impos- sible for them to perform this additional duty of superintendence : but 1 have seen extra duties of that kind prescribed out of the regular course ; and though they Avere practicable, still they became, in detail, subsequently, very inconvenient. It Avould be no harm, I suppose, to make the experiment. IG2. The senior class of Dunboyne students is composed entirely of priests, is it not? — Yes. 163. iMight not those be sent out to accompany each division of the young men? — That might be done. 164. In fact you consider that there Avould be considerable risk to the discijffine of the College and also to the young lUiCn ? — I tio not consider the inconvenience to be such as should altogether deter from the trial of the j)ian suggested, but I do apprehend that it would not ultimately be found practicable. It Avoukl be quite at variance Avith the system pursued at Maynooth. The greatest dffliculty is felt in allowing any number of students to be absent from the ordinaiy duties of tlie college. 165. You were examined before the former Cojumission, Avere you not? — Yes. 166. At that time the accession to the Dunboyne Class was not an object of A’ery much ambition : Avas it ? — I remember having ansAvered to that effect on the occasion referred to. Perhaps my words are liable to misconstruction. I meant to speak for myself indi- vidually ; not tha,t the appointment Avas not in itself an object of ambition. 167. You stated that it aa'Us, iu some degree, an object of ambition? — Naturally it should be ; but not so much then as it is now, in one respect. 168. Is it noAV more distinctly an object of ambition than it AA'as then? — The students on the Dunboyne Establishment receive now a much larger salary than they did then. 169. Do you believe that that Establishment, endoAved as it is now, Avill have a usel’ul and beneficial effect upon the Avhole body of students? — I think it is a very important part of our establishment : it gives a great stimulus to the studies of the College. 170. You have now had a considerable experience of the College, is there any change in the class of doctrines tauglit upon dubious points within your knoAvledge ? — 1 knoAV of none. 0 2 I'ilh (October, ]S5!5. 8 . Rev.ThomasFurlong. 01)jcctions to llic suggested method of sending the students outside of the College for the purpose of c.-itechising. Dunhoj'iie Estab- lishment. 100 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. l-2th October, 1853. llcv.ThoniasFurloii!?. Spirit of tli3 College with respect to Galiieaa (|uestions. Higher view at present prevailing as to tlie spiritual authority of the I'ope. ^f allibiUty of the Spirit of witness's teaeiiing on this subject. Temporal power of the Hoi)e. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition on tliat subject has been constantly main- tained at Maynooth. ITl. The same spirit prevails now which did at the time of the former investigation ? — Yes; I am not aware of any difference, save tliat a more decided bias prevails generally in favour of the infallibility of the Pope and his anthority in spiritual matters. 172. In i-egard to those points which are commonly called the Gallican points — I do not mean those that particularly relate to the Gallican Cluirch as the Gallican Cluirch, but the general current of Gallican doctrine — does the same kind of opinion prevail in the teach- ing of the College now as before '? — I may say that it is precisely tlie same doctrine. The Gallican points are embodied ])rincipally in the four famous articles drawn up and subscribed by the French bishops in the year lbS2. Tliey declared — Firstly. That kings and ])rinces could not be deposed, nor their subjects released from the allegiance due to them by the anthority of the keys of the Church. Secondly. That the decrees of the Council of Con- stance, affirming the superiority of General Councils over the Pope, were to be held firm and inviolate. Thirdly. That the use of the a])OStolic powder was to be regulated by the canons. Fourthly. That the decision of the Pope was not to be hold irreversible, unless confirmed by the approval of the universal Church. The first ai'ticle is held by us, and averred on oath. With regard to rfie rest, they are considered now, as before, subjects for discussion outside the strict boundary of Catholic faith : though gencrall}' there pre- vails a higher view' with regard to the prerogative cf the Sovereign Pontiff within the spiritual domain which properly belongs to him. 173. In regard to the authority of tlie Pope, the same doctrine prevails now as then ? — The same doctrine prevails as to the power of the Pope over temporal rights of sovereigns, wo hold the same doctrine that was always held in the College. 174. With regard to another point in which the State is perhaps less directly interested, namely, that of tlie authority of the Pope, speaking ex cathedra, of himself to make an article of faith, which was alluded to in the former investigation, is the same opinion gene- rally held as before ? — The course which I pursue is simply to state, that it is not an article of Catholic belief, and that each person is free to follow whatever opinion may seem to him more probable. I then explain the arguments on cither side, without giving a decided opinion upon the question. 175. You convey no distinct opinion of your own upon it? — I develop the arguments that appear to me to bo the strongest in favour of the infallibility of the Pope, I then point out those that seem to have the greatest weight on the other side. 176. In ffict, you do not feel it your duty, as a Professor, to throw your ■weight into the scale very distinctly with regard to tlie one or the other view of this question ? — No : irguments may indicate to which side I Answers of witness 1 . 0 veil in former in- quiry still adhered to by him. though the manner in wliich I propose the incline. 177. But upon many free opinions the professors do declare a distinct conclusion of their own ; do they not? — Yes, they state what opinion appears to them to be the more probable. 178. In regard to the question of the temporal poivcr of the Pope, do they deliver distinct opinions'? — Yes; that he has not any. 179. Do you still make use of the treatise of Dr. Delahogue, “ De Ecclesia?” — We do. 180. lie lays down this proposition in his treatise “ De Ecclesia” — “ Christus Petro et succcssoribus ejns aut Ecclesim nnllam concessit jiotestatem directam vel indirectam in Regum temporalia : proindeque isti nunquam auctoritate clavium, etiam indirecte deponi possunt, aut eorum subditi a tide et obedientia illis, debita eximi ac dispensari.’’ Has that proposition been constantly maintained by the professors at Maynooth in their lectures on dogmatic theology, so far as you know or believe, since the time when you ■were examined in 1826 ? — It has. 181. Will you have the goodness to state whether you have any reason to apprehend that a contrary principle, or a principle in any degree clashing ■with that laid down in Dr. Delahogue, is entertained by any of the students at Maynooth ? — I am convinced that there is no student at Maynooth who holds the opposite doctrine. I cannot, of course, speak positively for evert/ single individual ; but I have a very strong belief that there is not one student who holds a contrary ojjinion. 182. Have you ever heard of any student who held an opposite opinion? — Never. 183. You were asked on a former occasion this question, “ Suppose the Pope were now to issue a sentence of deposition against the king, and to publish an order directing the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland to inculcate upon the people that it was their duty, in consequence of that deposition, to withdraw their allegiance from the king ; which do you think would be the duty of the priests in that case— to obey the Pope, or to resist him? and your answer ■was, “ should the Pope issue such a sentence, which I am confident he never will, I think it would be their duty to resist him.” Is that the answer that you would give now '?— Yes. 184. You were also asked, “Suppose the Pope were to threaten the clergy with an excommunication if they did not obey the command which has been stated, would you conceive, in that case, that the excommunication was a lawful or an unlawful e.xcommunica- tion?” and 3'ou then answ'ered, “I should consider the excommunication to be unjust, and by no means obligatory, or of an}' force whatsoever.” Is that the answer that you would give now ? — It is. 185. Supposing the Pope were to threaten the clergy with excommunication if they did not obey the command referred to with regard to the temporal affairs of this kingdom, would they be under obligation to obey that command or not ? — The fixed principle from which every answer to a question of that kind must flow, is, that the Pope has no power whatever in temporal matters in this couutiw, that is to say, no power of jurisdiction he I\ILNUTKS OF KVIDENCF. 101 has no power of jurisdiction as a temporal sovereign. AVc are not Ids subjects in temjjoral matters, and he lias no right to jircscribe as a temporal sovereign any course of conduct to us with regard to mere temporal duties, our obligations to the throne, or private obligations arising from our relations with each other, lie has no right to dictate to us in that character, and to reipdre obedience from us as subjects, but he has a right to direct us in the way of deciding whether any moral act is or is not in conformity with the principles of tlie (jospel. 18(). Has he any control over you except in articles of faith? — And morals. 187. Then the ([uestions of nicety that might arise would be those in which questions of politics might appear to he mixed up with cpiestions of morals? — The l*o])C has no right to interfere in jmrely political aifairs — none whatever : he can decide an abstract question, whether a certain course of conduct on any occasion would conllict with the laws of morality, or he in accordance with them, in the same way that any moralist could, hut with a Idgher sanction and authority ; hut we do not allow, nor does the I’ope claim, any authority such as a superior exercises over a subject in any political matter. 18S. lie could give no general ])Owcr of direction as to any political matter, could ho? — lie could give no general [)ower of direction, only inasmuch as he is the supreme authority from which we receive the exposition of the natural and divine law. 189. lie could only interfere with politics so far as they come within the province of morals ? — Yes. 190. You would say, then, that the interference of a priest would he limited by the same considerations, except so far as he acts as a citizen? — A priest may interfere without exercising authority, that is, tlie authority of a temporal supericr. As such he has no authority, and a parish priest, as such, lias no right to command his parishioners, or to guide or direct them with temporal authority in political matters, 191. Has he any authority except ivhere the question is one either of faith or of morals? — No ; of course the exercise of the franchise is amoral duty. 192. The question is, as a priest, has he a right?— As a priest he lias no right whatever to command Ids parishionei’s to adopt any line of condirct — no right whatever, only inas- much as he can explain to them what course of conduct is in accordance or at variance with the obligations of morality. His duty as a parish priest is that of a teacher of morals. 193. In short, in reference to the exercise of the franchise, he would have a right to point out generally wdiat were the moral duties in exercising it, that it should he exercised according to the conscience of the peivon who enjoyed it; but he vrould have no right or power to point out A II as a candidate 'whom the elector ought to support, and by that means impose a mandatory obligation to give that candidate his vote ? — A priest may he regarded as a man possessing ordinary intelligence and ordinary opportunities of knowing the iitness of any candidate for the office of representation. He has a right to oiler his opinion and advice with regard to the candidate that seems to him to possess qualifications the most necessary and desirable for the fulfilment of the trust to which he aspii’es ; hut should he go further and command his parishioners by virtue of the authority that he possesses to adopt this candidate and no other, he transgresses the limits of his duty. 191. And still more if he introduces a spiritual sanction, by threatening to withhold the offices of religion in any way, according to the manner in xvhich his instructions prohibit, or otherwise ? — These grievous spiritual penalties never can he inflicted except for a grievous crime ; and in political matters there is such room for difference of opinion as to the relative fitness of candidates, that a case cannot frequently occur in which a person by adopting a course different from that which the priest suggests, would he considered to have committed such a crime as would warrant the use of ecclesiastical censures. It is only a crime that is clearly, openly, and grievously at variance with moral duty, that is fit matter for ecclesiastical censures. 195. Any interference of that kind would naturally expose the priest to the correction, of his hishop? — It would, and ought to do so. I do not say that a priest has not a strict right to form an opinion, and to express it, too, in conformity with the rules of prudence, by which every right must he regulated. 19G. The opinions which you have been just now expressing are those which would guide your general teaching at iMaynooth in regard to the civil duties of the priesthood ? — We rarely enter into the detailed consideration of these matters, because Ave deem it better to lay down the general principle Avhich I adverted to ; that is to say, that a j)riest should confine himself very generally Avithin the sphere of his OAvn duties. In the present condition of the country, it might not he very prudent for us to he too importunate in inculcating this or that line of duty, or explaining circumstantially obligations Avhicli the students must sufficiently infer from the general principles that are laid down. ' 197. You think that the general course of conduct becoming a good citizen and a priest would he sufficiently pointed out and understood by those Avho had passed through the teaching of Maynooth to make any deA’iation from such a course sensible to their oavu conscience ? — Yes. 198. The tendency of your teaching, as I understand, is to inculcate in those lessons the principles Avhich you have mentioned upon the students Avhom you are instructing?^ — Y"es. Our teaching is, that a priest has a defined sphere marked out for himself, and he is to con- fine himself to it, unless some very urgent necessity, Avhich can only he determined by circumstances, forces him out of it. 199. Do you also subscribe to the principle that it is no article of the Catholic faith that the Pope is infallible ? — I do. ia<7( Ortoher, 185.'!. 8 . Kev.Thoniusl'urlon". .Turisdiction of the I'ope coiifiiit'il to (inestioiiK of faitli aiul morals. Limits of liis inter- ference in i)oiitics. Interference of the clergy in politics. Exercise of the franchise. Principles regulating the legitimate inter- vention of the clergy with respect to elec- tions. Teaching of the College e n these subjects. 102 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. V’th October, 1803, 8 . Rev. Thomas!’ iirlong . Sense in ivliieh the infallibility of the Tope is held by those who adopt that opinion. Power to release from allegiance never taught nor in- sinuated at May- nooth. 9. Rev. Denis Gargan. State of x'reparation of students at entrance as to Greek and Latin. Preparatory education. 200. The question -whether the Pope has or has not the gift of infallibility is a mooted question in the Poman Catholic Church, is it not? — It is. 201. A man may adopt the opinion that the Pope is infallible, or reject it, and still continue in the communion of the Catholic Churcli, may he not? — Yes. 202. Is that the doctrine Avhich you teach at Maynooth? — Yes. 203. "What do you understand as the meaning of those who adopt the opinion th.at the Pope is infollible ? — The meaning is, that when the Pope issues a dogmatic decree on a point appertaining to faith or morals, speaking, as they say, ex cathedra, and directs this decree to the universal Church as a standard by which the}’ are to be guided in belief or practice, he cannot fail to propound to them the true doctrine of the Gospel with reference to that ])oint of faith or morals which he defines. 204. Do any such persons deem that the Pope must he considered infallible in issuing bulls which may interfere with the civil rights of sovereigns? — No, except such, if there be any, as hold the power of the Pope over the temporal rights of sovereigns ; all others cannot consider him infallible in issuing bulls which regard a department in which they do not consider that Christ gave him any authority whatever. They must hold it impossible that he can ever issue a bull containing a dogmatic decree asserting that right. 20.3. Therefore, no such persons, speaking speculatively, would hold that the Pope was infallible in sucli a case ? — No. 206. Even if they held that he was infallible when speahing ex cathedra on matters of faith or morals ? — They do not believe that such a prerogative comes within the domain of faith and morals confided to the guardianshi]) of the Sovereign Pontiff, and therefore they conclude its assertion cannot be matter of a divinely infallible decision. 207. Supposing that a bull of the Pope should declare that it was for the good of the Church or of the Catholic faith that the Poman Catholic subjects of her Majesty should re- nounce allegiance to her, or should rebel against her, what doctrine would you teach as to the duty of the lloman Catholic subjects of her Majesty with respect to obeying such a bull? — The bull is supposed to release them from the duty which they owe as subjects to the Queen ; and I would say that tltey are in no way obliged to pay any attention to such a mandate from the Sovereign Pontiff. 208. Have you ever heard it taught or insinuated at IMaynooth that the Pope may absolve the lloman Catholic subjects of her Majesty from their oath of allegiance ? — Never. [ Tlte withdrew.~\ The Kev. Denis Gargan, Professor of Humanit}'-, examined. 1 . "Were you educated at IMaynooth ? — I received my education in philosophy and theo- logy at Maynooth. I 2. Wliere had }'ou received your previous education ? — l\fy earliest education was under I a tutor at the residence of my father ; after that I attended a select school in the country, j where wm were supplied with excellent masters, in one case a tutor of Trinity College came down there from the advantageous terms that w'cre offered. After that I went to the | diocesan seminary of Meath, where I spent three years. Then I entered Maynooth College for the Logic Class, or first year’s philosophy, and read a two years’ course of ! philosophy, one of moral philosophy, and the other of natural philosophy. The theological course then was but three years, and after having com])leted that course I -was appointed to the Dunboyne Establishment, where I spent about two years and a quarter. And after that I -was appointed professor in the scminaiy or Irish College at Paris, where I S 2 )ent two years as Professor of Philosojiliy. Since 1843, since the increase of the grant, I have resided at Maynooth, having been appointed j^i’ofessor there by the ordinary mode of concursus. 3. Do you find that the young men usually come to you sufficiently trained in the j earlier departments of Greek and Latin ? — It is not easy to answer in the same way in reference to all the young men. I find some con.siderably advanced, a great many suffi- ciently trained in the earlier de|)artments of Greek and Latin, but from time to time I find some who liave certainly not made that progress that would be desirable, considering that w’e have only a two years’ classical course in the College. 4. In what respect do you find a deficiency where it does exist? — Some have read a very short classical course, and do not seem to have been made sufficiently familiar with the knowledge of the rudiments. In resjject to prosody and coni 2 )osition I occasionally find a con.siderable deficiency. 5. Is there any particular class of institutions from which they come better or worse prepared, and can you assign the causes of this deficiency with sufficient distinctness? — It , would be almost invidious to discriminate. I would find it difficult to determine whether | the young men come always best prepared from seminaries or from jxrivate tuitions ; but I i should say that, taking tlie average, the seminaries are advantageous. I have found some young men who had not been educated in a seminary, but who have had very good oppor- tunities at home, come admirably jxrepared. I have not always entered into an examina- tion of that question, I have not asked them where they were prepared, but 1 have been ; sometimes struck with the manner in Avhich they have answered, and particularly with then' | i facility in -un iting composition. In one case I remember asking a young man more particu-^, ) I MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 103 larly than usual how he had acquired tliat Icuowicdge, and he said that he had tlie advantage of a tutor who resided lor years iu his father’s house, and there com[)leted his classical education. G. Do many come without having had the advantage of ])rivate tuition ? — I do not suppose that that mode of acquiring knowledge and classical education is very general. I think where they have not got seminaries tliey Iiave generally got schools iu the principal towns, and young men who do not live within a convenient distance of those towns go there, cither to their friends, or they have to incur the expense of hoarding and attending the scliools, and it frequently lia[)pens that young men from dioceses not furnished with seminaries make their preliminary studies in the seminaries of other dioceses. 7. You seem to be aware that there is some defect in their knowledge of tlie English lan- guage in general ? — 1 have no hesitation in saying that there is some defect in tliat respect. 8. It has generally been reinarlced by the professors that there is that defect ? — I think it could not have escaped them, in some instances. 9. Do you adopt in your class the practice of requiring translations into English writing from those books which are referred to ? — I do not adopt it generally. The practice is more adopted in the Rhetoric Class, where they practise translating the Greek and Latin writers into English. I principally exercise the young men, so far as written composition is concerned, in Latin prose composition, or Greek prose composition. I give them a theme in English, and a theme in Latin, and require of the young men to translate the Latin into Greek, and the English into Latin, or sometimes I give a theme in English and require them to translate it into Latin and Greek. The only ordinary opportunity I have of improving their English education is to attend to their oral translation of the classics. 10. That would give you some knowledge of their pronunciation, but not practise them in orthography ? — Certainly not. We are, however, provided with the means of correcting their orthography — we have an English Class where they write exercises. I believe in the Rhetoric Class, or the first class of humanity, English exercises are required, less with a view to improve their orthograi)hy than to make them rhetoricans in their own language. 11. Your class is the junior class, is it not? — Yes, or the second class of Greek and Latin. 12. Do you at all instruct your class in the principles of grammar as such ? — I require my young men, by a criticism of the text, to give proof of their knowledge in grammar — iu fact their knowledge of grammar is tested at every lecture, and if I find them, as a body, not well prepared, I require them to revise their rudimental course of grammar. 13. What treatise on Greek Grammar is considered as the house treatise? — -We find that the grammar which they have ordinarily studied before coming into College is Wheeler’s edition of Wright’s Greek Grammar. The treatises on grammar by Valpy and Hincks, and the short grammar of Matthise, and the Port Royal Greek Grammar are very generally used. 14. Do you make use of the Port Royal Greek derivations, or do you use it as a class- book ? — I do not require it to be known as a class-book. I attend, of course, to the deriva- tions both of Latin and of Greek. 15. What treatise in Latin Grammar do you make use of? — The Latin Grammar to which I generally refer them is Zumpt’s or Schmitz’ Latin Grammar. I find they generally have studied either Valpy’s Latin Grammar or Ruddiman’s Short Grammar. 16. Does every student possess Zumpt’s Latin Grammar ? — I do not think so. The very excellent grammar published by Leonhard Schmitz, in Chambers’ Educational Course, from its price, is more within their reach. 17. Y"ou speak of referring the students to those several works, what opportunity have they of reference to them ? — I consider that the opportunity is rather insufficient. 1 would say that our library for the benefit of the junior students should be provided with books of reference. Frequently they are deprived of the aid of books of reference, and the professor is frequently impeded in having them usefully exercised. It is impossible to get young men to write upon subjects which can only be treated of fully in books that do not come within their search. If it were a historical subject they have not the convenient histories within their reach. 18. With respect to the works of Potter and Smith on antiquities, they do not all of them possess them? — No, they do not. 1 think Smith’s works are now getting into gene- ral use. The lai-ger works of Smith are very expensive, but the smaller ones I think they have got. Dr. Smith has edited three forms of his Avorks — the most extensive, the least extensive, and an intermediate size. The least extensive is A’ery Avell got up, and very convenient, and the intermediate is, perhaps, for general puiqroses, sufficiently ample for reference. 19. Hoogeveen’s and Herman’s works Avould not bo general ? — I think some have got them. I do not say that all those books, or most of them, are always possessed by any one student, but I think that, for reference, they have those books Avithin their reach. We are supplied occasionally by booksellers avIio come doAvn and sell second-hand books. 20. What is the nature of the select library Avhich is accessible to the students, and of what extent is it ? — As I have stated in Paper R, I believe that they arc possessed of a select library. I understood that the books Avere selected by our President and Librarian. 1 have not been, for a considerable time, in the library of the junior house, but I am of opinion that it is not sufficiently select for reference to Greek and Latin Classical authors. 21. What number of books are there in the library for the junior department? — I haAm not been in it since I Avas a student. I suppose then there might have been from 1,500 ia/7< October, 1863. 9. Kev. Denis Gargan. Deficiency in know- ledge of tlie English language. Greek Grammars used. Latin Grammar. InsufEcicut oppor- tunity of access to books as regards junior students. Library for the junior department. 104 MAYXOOXn COMMISSION. I'ith Octnher, 1853. 9 . Ilev. Denis Gargan. Algebra. Arithmetic and algebra. Exercises in the Humanity Class. Logarithms. Geometry taught in Jtlietoric Class. Mathematical studies Buspended during logic year. I’lan of contem- poraneous studies suggested by the professors of the junior classes. to 2,000 volumes — perhaps more— from that to 4,000. I think that there might he some means adopted to im])rove the lil)rary. 22. You state that the humanists now possess a greater facility of procuring hooks recommended by the professors. In wliat manner do they possess that greater facility ? — M’hat I intended to convey hy tliat was, that as tliey do not now incur so many expenses, tliey have more funds avai'ahle f r the purcliase of those hooks which are referred to in class; hut I did not at all intend to imply by that statement that our library has given them a greater facility. I intended, if I were asked to offer a suggestion, to say that our junior house library is not at all suitable to the wants of the junior classes, or not suf- ficiently so. 23. You have stated that you lectured in algebra as well as in Greek and Latin. Upon liow many days a week do you lecture in algebra? — I give two lectures every week on algebra. 24. You have only one class, have you? — I have only one class — the Humanity Class— to attend to. 2.5. One class of thirty -five? — The average number is thirty -five ; this year the number is forty. 26. How many lectures in Greek and Latin do you deliver every week? — vSeven. 27. In what way do you think that an elementary course of algebra interferes vrith the study of Greek and Latin ? — Two lectui’es out of nine are nearly a fourth of the time. I conceive the time for the study of Greek and Latin, the two years’ course, to be very short, indeed, particularly as there are no efficient means adopted to compel the students of the senior classes to retain their knowledge of Greek. 28. Are all the students examined, at entrance, in arithmetic, and what portions of arithmetic and algebra do you teach? — .\11 the students are not e.xamined formally, at entrance, in arithmetic, hut all students ])roposing for every class, except humanity, are e.xamined virtually in arithmetic. Tliey are examined formally in geometry and algebra, the operations of which presuppose a knowledge of arithmetic ; but I do not think that they are examined in the ordinary rules of ai’ithmetic, or commonly in vulgar fractions, except as far as they come into the operations of algebraic fractions. 1 commence always, with the vulgar fractions, and go through a course of decimal fractions. MU read the ordi- nary rules of the algebraic course — addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division ; then the greatest common measure ; squai’e and cube roots; equations, both simple and quad- ratic ; ratios ; proportions ; variations ; progressions ; the binomial theorem and logarithms. 29. You teach arithmetic through the forms of algebra? — Vulgar and decimal fractions arc a branch of arithmetic, and these, as already stated, I teacli These and some other arithmetical operations are also taught through the forms of algebra. 30. Do you find that you can get your whole class through that course ? — I find that several of the class acquire a very accurate knowledge of that course of algebra. 31. If 1 were to take a table of logarithms, and gave a man a question in division, a proposal to him in figures, and said to him, “ M'ill you divide this number by that number? — here is the table,” do you think that one-half of your class could answer that? — I doubt it ; but a good many, 1 think, could ; because, after going through the primary rules of logarithms, 1 represent the tabular scale on a board, and exjdain the construction, and the use and mode of ap])lication of the tables, and show how tho-eperations of the addition, sub- traction, multiplication, and division of the logarithms or artificial numbers correspond respect- ively to the multi])lication. division, involution and evolution of the natural numbers of the tables; and after giving the explanation, 1 interrogate them on the subject of my lecture, 32. Half of them ? — I really think half of them would he able to do so ; not, how- ever, with great expedition. 1 am sure they understand the way of getting through it. 33. After the students have concluded their studies in the Humanity Class, they pass into the Hhetoric Class, do they not ? — AUs. 34. Docs mathematics, in any shape, form a portion of the instruction in the Hhetoric Class? — Geometry forms a ])art of the studies in the Hhetoric Class. 3.3. Therefore, they go through algebra with you, and then through a course of geometry in the other class ? — Yes. 36. During the time that they arc in the Logic Class do they pursue the study of mathe- matics ? — Their mathematical studies are suspended for a year, until they enter the Physics Class. 37. Would it not he an improvement if, when they passed into the Logic Class, they contemporaneously entered into the Physics Class, tlie Logic and Physics Classes together being extended over two years, instead of succeeding each other ? — Several of my col- leagues and myself have been considering how the classical and philosophical studies could he carried on contemporaneously, as in Trinity College, and Oxford and Cambridge Colleges. If I may be permitted, 1 would just read the headings of one jilan that was suggested — a jdan which may have some difficulties in the views of others against it, but which, if carried into effect, would tend very materially to improve our classical studies, and wo\dd, at least, not impair the philosophical studies of the house. According to this qdan, it it is proposed that the services of the Dunboyne students should be made avail- able for such of the classical students as would be unfit to enter the Hhetoric Class. A higher standard for admi.ssion into the Hhetoric Class is also contemplated. Then there would be a class of students who would require another year or more under the care of two Dunboyne lecturers ; but this deficient class should not be left entirely, according to this plan, under the care of the Dunboyne lecturers, but be visited and inspected by the 311NUTKS OF EVIDENCE. 105 two I’rofossorei of Greek ami Latin. TIio studies of tlio Rhetoric, Logic, and I’hysic Classes are supposed to he arranged as follows: — In the lllietoric Class, the students would iwve eleven lectures ; in Greek four, in Latin four, in English two, and in French one. ;}8. During what ])criod — During the rhetoric year, d hen in logic: five or six lec- tures in the logic course, in Greek two or one, in Latin one, in English one, in f'rench one, in algebra and geometry one, making eleven lectures in a week. And in the Fliysics Class : in ])hysics six Icetures, in Greek one, in Phiglish one, in logic two, and one in ecclesiastical history. Then the first year’s divines would get one lecture a week in ])hysics, and the four Divinity Classes would get one lecture or two in Biblical Greek each week. According to this plan, the students would he engaged in the study of the classics all through. Latin is the language tliey speak in their Divinity Classes. The study of the English language would commence in the Humanity Class, and he continued in the Rhetoric, and Logic, and Rhysics Classes, d’he Greek would he studied during the entire collegiate course. Whether this plan, which 1 believe is quite feasible, will give satisfac- tion to all, 1 cannot undertake to say, hut it has been approved of by some four or five, who are more intimately connected with the studies to which it has reference. di>. This is not a ])lan merely of your own suggestion, hut it has received the considera- tion and a]>proval of several professors, has it not? — Yes it has. Indeed the plan is not of my suggestion. ■10. And those especially concerned with the junior department? — Yes. 41. You have ])assed through the whole course of education at iMaynooth ? — Not the classical part of the college course. I read the whole course of logic, physics, and theology at iMaynooth. 42. Did you find any ])articular encouragement or facility afforded to you in keeping up your knowledge of the classical languages? — As to Latin, I found it pretty well provided for, because we constantly read Latin ho.oks, and found it necessary to examine most of them with great attention. Any one reading Estius, for instance, or Jansenius, or our theological hooks, will find that the Latin is difficult enough, and requires great attention. I do not say that it is the purest Latin, hut a knowledge of the body of the language is very well kept up by the ])erusal of these hooks ; hut there are no means taken to improve or preserve a critical knowledge of the Latin classics. As to Greek, it does not form any part of the study either of the Logic or Rhysics Class. It is true, that no student can hope to he distinguished in Scripture unless he can make a critical search of the text. It is re(]uired I'or the interpretation of the text given in tlie class, that he will even descend into the minutice of ]>articles ; hut I consider that an imperfect mode of keeping- alive a knowledge of Greek. The investigation will mainly turn upon a few particles, wdiilst the body of the language is neglected. 43. Practically, as a young man passing through Maynooth, had you the means of know- ing whether many young men did keep up their knowledge of Greek? — 1 think there were some. I could not give an accurate answer to that question, as I had no opportunity of intercourse with them in their studies, as the studies are conducted in silence, and I rarely had any occasion to inquire Avhat particular private studies each one’s taste might have prompted him to pursue. I believe that there were Greek Testaments amongst them. 44. The plan which you propose wmuld defer altogether, would it not, the study of mathematics till the students arrived in the Logic Class? — Yes, hut it would require of all those entering for the Rhetoric Class to he already prepared in algebra. 45. Then you pro])Ose a continuous course of three years in mathematics, namely, tlie present logic year, the present physics year, and the first year's theology, at which time the study of mathematics would terminate ? — Y^cs. 46. What is the lowest treatise in the Rhysics Class with which they commence? — They commence with algebra, and then pass on to geometry ; after that they read plain and spherical trigonome try. 47. This necessity of going into algebra and geometry, as substantial treatises, arises from their having to read them again after their year's logic? — Yes, and it is to afford our students an opportunity for a more extended course in the physics year, that it is proposed to have one lecture every week in algebra and geometry during tlieir logic year, so that they might he entirely relieved in the physics year from commencing with those treatises, and being thereby delayed. ' 48. Can you state what is the extent of geometry which the pupils in the Rhetoric Class learn during their year? — They learn lines, surfaces and solids. 49. They are confined to wdiat are called the Elements of Geometry, are they not ? — Y"es. 50. Have you, yourself, ever read the treatise of Euclid on Geometry? — Y’es, I have, in part. 51. Euclid is not necessarily the class-book in geometry? — -No, the class-book is Darre's Geometry. 52. His treatise, I think, is rather confined to surfaces, is it not?— No, it treats of lines, surfaces and solids. The three dimensions of extension, length, breadth, and thickness, are very fairly and fully considered. It is a very satisfactory treatise. 53. Is it in English or Latin? — It is in English. The present edition is by our Professor of Natural Philosophy. 54. Then the plan that you propose would secure how' many years’ continued study of the Greek language ? — It would secure four years’ instruction under the Professor of P ^■Ith OclolifV, 1S.M3. Kev. Denis (iiirgan. F.'icilities for keeping up chissie.al knowledge. Course of lunthema- tics miller proposed plan. Extent of geometry learned in KhetorLe Class. Darre’s geometry. Greek studies under proposed plan. 106 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. \2th October, 1853. 9. Bev. Dynis Gargan. Discouragement to classics from Hu- manity Professors not being on Council. Function of Dun- boyne students under the proposed method. Capabilitj'- of Dun- boyne students for performing the above duty. Exhibition to be created for their services. Provisions of the Statutes for employ- mentof theDunboyne students in teacliing. Greek ; and if there were a Professor of Biblical Greek, the study of the Greek language would be continued throughout the entire course. 55. That would enable the students to he better grounded in Greek and Latin ? — Undoubtedly so. 56. Do you think that the study of the classical languages is discouraged by the^fact that the ITumanity Professors are not on the Council, as it is called? — I think that indirectly it has that effect. 57. Docs that encourage or discourage the prosecution of those languages among the students, they knowing that the Classical Professors will never be on the Council ? — It is obvious that, if it were known that the professors of these studies were on the Council, and that their support would not be given to young men who had neglected those studies, it must operate favourably upon those studies. 58. Would not the plan suggested entail, as a consequence, that the Professors of ITumanity and Rhetoric should become, respectively, the Professors of the Latin and Greek languages ? — It would ; it contemplates that. 59. Does the plan involve the appointment of an additional professor? — It does not sup- pose the appointment of any additional professor. GO. Then, throughout what ])ortion of tliat course would you contemplate aid being given by the Dunboyne students ? — iMerely for the young men who were the least advanced in their classical studies. 61. That is teaching upon the tutorial system? — Yes, to a certain extent. 62. To supply the deficiencies of those young men who come inadequately prepared? — Yes. 63. IIow far would their care be applied — for how long? — For the first year of their classics they must either form a distinct class, and not be part of the Rhetoric Class, or if they formed a part of the Rhetoric Class, they should bo obliged to attend the lectures. The difficulty of the latter plan would be to find time for such attendance, as they are already supposed to have eleven hours lecture attendance. The most feasible plan would be to have those who were unfit to enter the Rhetoric Class placed for one year under two lecturers, one in Latin, and the other in Greek, supplied from the Dunboyne Estab- lishment, but, at the same time, superintended by the Professors of Greek and Latin. 64. Still to be under the care of the Humanity Professor? — Under the care of the Greek and Latin Professors. 65. Wouldnot that involve the appointment of an additional professor? — No; certainly not. 66. Would it not involve an additional year in the study of Humanity, on the part of those who came imperfectly prepared ? — No ; because it supposes that the present Humanity Class w'ould either lapse into the Rhetoric Class, or that those who were not deemed qualified to enter the Rhetoric Class should be placed under the care of two Dun- boyne students, one to lecture in Latin and another in Greek, and, at the same time, have their studies directed by the Professors of Greek and Latin. 67. In a single year ? — -Yes. One great object of this plan is to give the Professor of the Greek and Latin Languages time to read and to attend to the compositions. I get com- positions written every week ; sometimes they are in Greek or Latin, and sometimes in both. Their number varies from twenty-five to fort}u The Professor of Rhetoric receives a still larger number of compositions. It is scarcely possible under the present system to find sufficient time for reading and correcting those compositions. 68. In short, you feel that tlie system as it at present exists is such that you cannot adequately perforin your own functions without the assistance of some tutor to instruct the junior pupils under your care ? — Yes ; but 1 think it would be an advantage in any case to have lecturers appointed both for the humanity and rhetoric classes. 69. Generally speaking, would the Dunboyne students be able to undertake the duty which you allot to them?— I believe so. Amongst their number are always to be found some distinguished for their classic taste and acquirements. And if an exhibition were created for their services as lecturers, I entertain no doubt that they would not be wanting either in ability or zeal for the performance of the duties which the proposed plan allots to them. 70. And would you keep up during the theological teaching such a knowledge of classics as would fit them for this duty ? — Yes. 71. Do you consider that the plan you propose would substantially carry out the pro- vision in the Statute respecting the employment of the Dunboyne students in the province of teaching? — I have had no experience of the lectureships referred to: they were entirely done away with in my time. After tlie number of theological professors was increased, the lectureships were discontinued ; and the only occasion on wdiich the services of the Dunboyne students as lecturers are now required, is during the illness or absence of a professor, 72. Will you have the goodness to read the ninth and tenth articles of the seventh chapter of the Statutes ? — “ But since, in establishing this class of students, our principal object is that persons may not be wanting who, succeeding to the professors wdiose places may become vacant, either Ijy their death or otherwise, may execute without interruption the duty of teaching in the College, which, however learned they may be, they will not be able to discharge, unless they shall have acquired by experience a facility of communicating instruction to others; we desire, therefore, that the senior students also may have their share in the province of teaching. It will, therefore, be their business, at stated times, to question JMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 107 tlio pupils of the various classes coucerning the subjects which have been discussed under the direction of their master ; and when the ])rofessoi*s are ])rcventcd by business or ill health to take on them the entire duty of teaching. And since the Theology Class has increased exceedingly by the nuinher of pupils, the rresident having distributed it into several parts, will appoint over each ]>art one of the senior students whom ho himself, in conjunction with the Council above named, shall judge most qualified for that oflice ; but if the question be concerning any other class — that, for instance, of philosophy or humanity — lot the professor whoso province it is, be also consulted.” 73. It seems to have been contemplated by the Statute that the Dunboyno students would take jiart occasionally in teaching the pujiils in the Humanity and the lUietoric Class? — Yes; audit would operate hivourably in another way. The Dunboyne students, after having completed their studies at IMaynooth, are frequently ap])ointcd to the different seminaries, to teach classics there. If, then, they took jiart occasionally in teaching the pupils of our Humanity and Rhetoric Classes they would themselves become better prepared to perform those duties which not unfrequently devolve upon them in the seminaries. 74. Arc you of opinion, that if that jirovision in the Statute was carried into effect in some manner it would be the most advisable method of promoting the object which the Commissioners are now considering, and that the character of the Dunboyne foundation would stand higher in the opinion of the students, and of the country at large ? — I believe that if the provision of the Statutes were carried out, it would be the most advisable method of giving effect to the wishes of the Commissioners ; and I am also of opinion, that the character of the Dunboyne students for classic and general knowledge would stand higher both in the estimation of the students and of the countiy at large. 75. Besides that, would it not have the effect of stimidating, individually, the students at Maynooth to a more zealous cultivation of the classics, as a great many of them aspire to become Dunboyne students? — 1 do not think that it would have that effect to any considerable extent unless the classical acquirements of the candidates for the Dunboyne Establishment be regarded as one of the qualillcations necessary for promotion to that institution. 76. If the Dunboyne students were paid for performing those duties, would that bo a sufficient stimulus ? — It would certainly be a stimidus, but to have a sufficient stimulus there should be a permanent premium for persons distinguished in classics at Maynooth. They ought to have something to look to as an exhibition, commencing at the termination of the rhetoric year, and to be enjoyed during their entire course. 77. The course which you have suggested involves an obligation upon all the students to acquire a certain amount of mathematical knowledge, does it not ? — It does. 78. Some of the students may not be disposed to take that line of study — they may be disposed either to make a further acquisition of Greek, or to apply themselves to the ethical or moral portions of the course — others again might prefer mathematical acquire- ments. Would it not be advisable to give to the students the election, so that they could be permitted to determine whether they would apply to the one or the other of those courses ? — I have a decided opinion that a course of natural philosophy is necessary for all the young men. They may not all acquire a j)erfect knowledge of the various operations which occur in our course of natural philosophy, nor have all of them a taste for those studies, still it is so necessary to i-eacl a course of natural philosophy, in order to become thoroughly acquainted with the body of the English language, and to be capable of under- standing and taking part in many conversations which must arise from time to time amongst educated men on scientific subjects; and this study is so calculated to improve the faculties of the mind, by fixing the attention, by stimulating invention, and by strengthening the memory, and, particularly, as I find all our young men, with very few excejffions, capable of acquiring a competent knowledge of mathematics and natural philosophy, I am of opinion that the amount of these studies required by our course can neither be dispensed with nor abridged. 79. With regard to natural philosophy — not so far as it is a matter of experiment, or so far as it is the subject of inductive instruction, but so far as it requires enlarged pursuit and a considerable amount of mathematical acquirement — do you consider that the general course of education at Maynooth would admit of an abridgment from the quantity of mathe- matical knowledge, and the substitution for it of a much larger course of ethical or moral knowledge, or of Greek, but preserving attention to the physical course, as a course to be taught as a matter of induction and by experiment ? — I really believe that our mathe- matical course woidd not admit of any abridgment. Neither could our course of natural philosophy, which comprises electricity, galvanism, mechanics, astronomy, optics, hydrosta- tics, and pneumatics, be conveniently abridged, although I think that popular scientific lectures might be advantageously substituted for some of the more abstruse operations of astronomy and mechanics. 80. In your experience, both as a student and as a teacher, do you find that there is any considerable proportion of the students who have either a great distaste for pursuing, or an incapacity for learning mathematics ? — I believe there is no great proportion. 81. You tliink that their intellects, for the most part, are such as to qualify the students for the acquisition of a sufficient amount of mathematical knowledge, or that amount which you have described in the course you have suggested ? — There may be some obscure pro- positions, for instance, the oths and 7ths of conic sections, and the calculations of the number and duration of eclipses, beyond the reach of several ; but, generally speaking, I have found P 2 12dt October, 1853, Rev. l.’cnis Gargan, Advantages of carry* ing out the above provisions. Suggestion of giving students an option to omit mathematical studies. Witness’s opinion of necessity of study of natural philosophy. Mathematical course would not admit of abridgment. Capacity for mathe- matics among the students. 108 MAYNOOTII COMMISSIO^^-. 12th Octohi y, ]vev. Denis Gargan. Greek. No examination at election of Dniiboj ne students Extended course for Dunboyne students. Use of Latin in theological lectures. Compositions iu verse. that the body of the class has mulerstood the hu.siness of the class. I must say that it rarely liappened that a student showed liiinself so deficient as to incur the displeasure of his professor, or of those wlio have to look after tlieir studies. 82. Do not you tliink that a smaller ])ortiou of mathematical studies than that A>hich you contemplate in your suggested course Avould he sufficient to enable a student to make a com{)etent acquaintance with the ])hysical sciences ? — The mathematical course is alto- gether very short — even the geometry is a shorter course than the ordinary course of kuclid. Confining the word mathematical to those two departments, algebra and geometry, I really do not think so. 8.3. J^ractically, is there much reference to the Greek language in the theological course ? — There is occa.sional reference. 84. Greek is often quoted, is it not? — Yes; not unfrcquentlv. 85. So that a young man having no knowledge of Greek would find himself at a loss? — lie would not understand the exposition at all, and it is needed principally in tlie j dogmatic part of the course. i 86. Is any reference ever made to the Greek fathers? — Yes; I am sure the Greek fathers are referred to. I do not think that they are consulted by the students, hut the professors of theology do consult them, 1 know. 87. With regard to the Apostolic fathers, would thev, as a matter of course, enter into j the young men’s studies ? — They do not. Our studies in divinity are not conducted in I that way exactlyL i 88. For instance, the Professor of Ecclesiastical History is giving a lecture upon the newly-discovered work which is ascribed to St. IIip])olytus. Do you think that the know- ledge of Greek jjossessed by the theological students would enable them to apj)reciate the arguments which he might advance from the Greek of that work as to the authorship ? — I believe they would he able to appreciate his arguments; for although they have not the o])portunity nor the time for an e.xtensive course, yet their knowledge of Greek and Latin is very substantial. 89. You were yourself a Dunboyne student, were you not ? — Yes. i 90. You are aware that the statute contemplates that the Dunboyne students should | have thoroughly learned Greek and Latin : the expression is “ 2yerdi(Ucisse ? ” — Yes. I 91. Is there any examination in the Greek and Latin languages, so as to satisfy the ! requirements of that statute practised at the election of the Dunboyne students? — There is no examination at the election of Dunboyne students, but their classical attainments are j known either from their entrance examination, or from the manner in which they read their ! classical course in the College. ■ 92. It is also stated in the statute, that the one great object of this foundation was that | there should be other students who should go through a more extended academic course j than the rest? — Y"es. 93. In what respect does the course of study through which the Dunboyne students are now conducted, come up to that provision of the statute, namely, that they should liave a more extended academic course ? — The Dunboyne students have a more extended academic course, so fiir as theology, canon law, Hebrew, and ecclesiastical history are con- i cerned. 94. Would the plan which the Commissioners liave been discussing, respecting the , employment of some of the Dunboyne students in the departments of Greek and Latin, j though not requiring an examination iu those languages at their election, in vour opinion ' secure a compliance with that provision of tlie statute ? — It would to some extent. i 9~>. And such a result would be in conformity with the spirit of the statute? — Yes, 1 believe so ; I think it is quite evident. 96. And at the same time it would be in conformity' with the spirit of the statutes in the i 9th and 1 0th clauses of that chapter ? — I believe so. I 97. Are you able to state whether the students iu theology, when they’ are examined, j and when they give their answers, and communicate with the professor, speak in Latin | uniformly ? — 1 believe that such is the case. It was always so in my time as a student, and I believe it is the practice still, unless where a difficult point may be rendered more | difficult by the want of complete facility on the part of the student to express himself in ( Latin, then the professor will allow him to speak in Ihiglish, or if the student .should not | fully understand the professor while speaking in Latin, the professor may’’ speak in English; but otherwise it is the uniform practice to speak in Latin, and it is also the practice at the examinations in theology at which I assist, I alway’s find the students answer in Latin, as they are interrogated in Latin. 98. Are the monitors at all employed in assisting in the education of the classes, or merely in superintending the discipline? — Merely in superintending the discipline. 99. Are the students ever called upon to compose in verse ? — 1 have required them to compose occasionally in the Latin Hexameter, and I sometimes get private compositioiis , in verse, but 1 find from the information which they po.ssess in coming into class, that their | time would not be so profitably employed in that way ; I know' it is conceived that the great i object of getting them to compose in verse is to have them learn prosody, but I am sure ! they can learn prosody w’ithout having recourse to such means, pai'ticularly where the time I for Greek and Latin prose compositions cannot be conveniently abridged. j 100. You would check them if they made mistakes in reading? — Yes, undoubtedly. I > require them to go through the rules of prosody vei*y frequently, and also to learn the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 109 Criticising of students’ sermons. fjuantitios of syllables not provided for in the rides of prosody. Indeed we pay very par- i 'Hli Ociohr, ticnlar attention to prosody. 101. Von retpdre that their compositions shonid be written in a proper handwriting? — itev. Denis Gargna. Yes. 102. And yon would send them bach and make them re-write them, if they were badly written? — Yes, if it tvere not written in a fair hand 1 would send it back. 103. At what time did you complete your studies at Maynooth ? — In 1841. 104. Didyoutlien enter the Dunboyne Establishment? — I did. 105. What time did you enter the College? — In 1830. lOf). During your time, was any thing done with a view to enable the student to acquire the art of ])reaching as contradistinguished from the art of im])arting knowledge by cate- chetical instruction ? — During their second and third year of divinity, the students were obliged in turn to ])reach in the public hall; we have now four sermons preached by tbc Preaching, divinity students every Sunday in the different halls. The students, professors, and superiors attend there to hear and criticise the discourse. When the preacher concludes his discourse, the presiding oflicor calls upon one of tlie students to offer any remarks which he may have to make upon it. Then another student is called upon, and finally one of the professors, so that there are three oral criticisms pronounced upon the discourse. 107. How long does that take ? — It is generally expected that the preacher will confine his discourse to half an hour. 108. What time is occupied in observations and criticisms? — They vary from five to seven minutes, 1 09. Then from five to seven minutes is the period ? — I should say less than seven juinutes ; a good deal is said in three or four minutes. 1 believe I may say five or six minutes. no. Does the opinion expressed amount to more than a favourable opinion, or the reverse ? — Generally it is a very impartial criticism. 1 1 1. Does it criticise the mode in which it has been composed ? — Yes, and the manner of delivery. 112. Is the criticism aloud ?— Yes. 113. Do you think that that can be effectually done in from five to seven minutes? — Those in the habit of criticising, may, I think, condense in a few short sentences, the loading perfections and defects ; but to analyze the whole discourse, and to go into the particulars of composition, delivery, and gesture, would reijuire more time. 114. Was there anything else done in the College during your time, tow’ards acquiring a facility in preaching ? — I read one year in the English class, having entered as what we call a freshman logician, and there we had to deliver not sermons exactly, but pieces of composition. 115. (Jf your own ? — We were at liberty to select passages from books on elocution : very rarely, indeed, did any one, in my time, deliver a composition of his own. 11(5. That is, they read from the works of others? — They committed to memory, and delivered it. 117. You mean merely^ delivery? — Yes, declamation. Then there was English com- position. ’ 118. To what extent Avas that English composition carried ? — I think we were obliged English compositioo. to Avrite English compositions once a month on any subject of our oavu choice. In addition to this, the Professor of English, about once a fortnight, required of his pupils to come to lecture provided Avith pen, ink, and paper, and compose for one hour on some subject Avhich he dictated at the moment. 119. IIoAV long did that occupy ?— One hour. Then there were regular pieces ; a theme was given, and a month’s notice, and that induced the necessity of reading and collecting materials, and putting them in the best form. 120. There Avas a monthly theme, and either a Aveekly or a fortnightly essay upon matter dictated by the professor ? — Yes, 121. Were all those compositions read by the professor. I suppose he read them all. The Avay Ave came to the knoAvledge of his having read them Avas, that he selected some for their perfections, some for their great faults, and some medium pieces, and those he read or called on the writers to read in public. 122. Upon the average, hoAV many persons were there Avhose essay^s he would criticise in a public way ? — He might criticise from ten to tAventy. 123. In a day? — At one lecture. 124. Do you allude to the monthly themes, or the weekly or fortnightly compositions ? — To all his remarks and criticisms. I think he spent one night every week in criticising the compositions ; he read several of them, or he got the young men to read them, and he criticised them ; it might be from ten to tAventy, perhaps more than twenty. 125. How often has a composition of y'our own been criticised in that way in a year ? — I think on two occasions they were read. 126. Only two in a year ? —But two ; it w\as a class of eighty students. 127. Was there, during your time, Avith the exception of the sermon you spoke of, and the criticism of five or seven minutes of those compositions during the logic year, any other instruction ghmii to you, either as to the composition of materials, or as to diction, in the preparation of the sermon ? — During the year which I spent in the English class, I received instructions as to the composition of a sermon. Preaching. Instroo- tioii in compositioa of a sermon. no I\rAYNOOTn COMMISSION. I'ith October, 18rj3. IT Eev. Denis Gargan. Sermons of the stu- dents. Training in the giving of catechetical instruction. Proposal to set apart a fund for purchase of books for the junior classes. Association among the students. Temporal power of the Pope. 128. Did you yourself compose a sermon -wIlIIo you were a student in College? Yes. 129. More than once? — I composed but one during my course. 130. What proportion of the whole students in their seven years preach in the way you have described — does it happen to one-third ? — All of them. 131. Then some one person has preached once at least in the seven years? — No stu- dent passes through his course at Maynooth without preaching at least once within that period. 132. What portion of the students arc selected to preach? — The students of the third and fourth classes of divinity. 133. Now they arc the first, second, thii'd, and fourth year’s dinnes? — Yes, such is the | present division of the divdnity students. i 134. Was it understood in Maynooth that in every instance the sermon was the com- * position of the preacher? — Of course, as in every other establishment, to some extent such practices as those hinted at may be indulged in, but when they are detected they are denounced. j 135. Was it understood in the College that the sermons were not always written by the ' persons delivering them ? — It was understood that sermons might have been occasionally- delivered by persons who had not composed them, but, except in one or two instances, I never knew of the imputation of jdagiary being made against any individual. 13(1. Have the students, in preparing that sermon, any instruction from anybody, as to plan, materials, diction, and composition? — For the composition of that sermon they receive no instruction beyond what was imparted to them during the year or two they ‘ spent in the English class, where the principles for the comjjosition of subjects of pulpit { oratory are taught. | 137. That constituted the entire training for that portion of the jjriestly duty ? Of ! what portion. i 138. That of composing a sermon, or of giving catechetical instruction ? — Yes. ! 139. Was thereanything done towards impartingafacility of giving catechetical instruction — that kind of instruction that you would give to young persons to whom you were imparting I the elements of the Homan Catholic faith ? — I do not know of any thing that has been done in that way, unless so far as it was recommended to accommodate the manner of communicating knowledge to the caiiacity of the persons to be instructed. 140. The question did not apply to sermons, but to imparting instruction by catechetical I means ? — The students of JMaynooth have no practice in giving catechetical instructions ; but I understood the question to be whether they were taught the manner of giving cate- chetical instruction. The professors and deans, when criticising the sermons, commonly i speak of the manner in which catechetical instruction, suited to young persons, should be imj)arted. 141. On what occasions ? — When commenting upon the sermons. 142. Only then? — Only then, I believe. I have no recollection of having I'eceived any other instruction myself on the subject. 143. How, if the sermon is not in itself catechetical instruction, can an observation, i during those five or seven minutes, apply to that species of instruction ? — If a sermon wanted that simplicity which is required to make it intelligible to such an audience as the preacher may hereafter be called upon to instruct, the superior who pronounces a criticism upon it generally takes occasion to recommend that form of language and manner of ‘ treating a subject which must be adopted in giving instruction to young or illiterate persons. 144. You stated that you had not been in the library since you were a student ? — Not | in the junior library. 1 145. Are you able to say whether it is at all the practice of any professor to go into the ' library to see what is wanted, and to suggest what is required to the Council or to the i Trustees ? — The librarian is the only person charged with the care of the library ; the j professors go there for their own private study, but whether they make any suggestion or not, I am unable to say. 14G. In point of fact you have made none yourself? — Not any to the Council or to the i Trustees. Speaking of the library the junior professors concurred with me in the propriety j of making a suggestion about having a certain sum at once allocated for the purchase of I those books which appertained to the studies of the junior classes, and to have a small annual sum set apart for re])airing the books, and purchasing new works, and that the profes- sors of the junior classes should form a committee for determining the books to bo procured, and that it be left to the discretion of those who are to consider this suggestion to decide whether and how far the librarian or President may control this committee. | 147. Has that been done? — So far, it has not been done. j 148. Do the young men, in their walks for recreation, often discuss the subjects of their j studies ? — They do so, not unfrequently, and particularly at the aj)proach of the examina- tions. 149. ^Vre there friends who are apt to associate together in particidar studies, and confer together on the books they read ? — The students of the same class very generally associate together, and theii- conversations often turn upon the studies in which they are engaged, and on the books they read. 150. Are you aware whether the general doctrine taught in the College of Maynooth, with regard to the temporal power of the Pope is, that it does not extend directly or ■ MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ill indirectly to temporal affairs? — I am aware that sucli is the doctrine taiight in IMaynootli V2th Octnher, isrja. with regard to the temporal power of the Pope. 151. Has all that you have heard in the teaching of IMaynooth coincided with that view? — All that I have heard in JMaynooth during my connexion with the College coincides with ’ ■ = that view. 152. That is the general view of the students as well as the professors? — Indeed, I believe so, whenever they think of the matter at all. 153. Do ])olitics form frocpiently the subject of discussion among the young men ? — T think not. When, how’ever, very important political (piestions are discussed outside the College, such topics may form a subject of ordinary conversation, hut not of political discussion among the students. 154. You have had an opportunity of observing the change produced by the enlargement Effects of increasea of the buildings, and the increased accommodation afforded. Have you observed a material grant, improvement in any respect (irrespectively of the mere accommodation) with regard to the objects of the College from the increased grant ? — I believe so. 155. Do you think that it has had, indirectly, an effect in raising the standard of their habits and manners ? — I believe it has had that effect. 156. Do you think it very important that every student should have his own apartment ? — I believe it to he very important for silence and study. 157. Do you think that young men should come to pass through the whole of their earliest studies at Maynooth, or pass at once into a more advanced class? — I think that if the plan suggested were carried into effect, it would afford an opportunity of a higher course of classics and of English education than they are generally provided with outside the College. With that change it would be decidedly useful and desirable that all the students should enter for the lowest class. Even at present it is decidedly advantageous for such students, as have not good schools in the country, to pass through the entire collegiate course at Maynooth. \_The Witness ivithdreiv.~\ Dublin, Thursday, 13tii October, 1853. The Very Eev. David Moriarty, d.d., examined. October, 1853. 10 . Very Kev. David iMoriarty, d.d. Colloge of All-IIal- lows. Foreign missions. 1. You are the President of the College of All-Hallows at Drumcondra, are you not ? — Yes. 2. In what college were you educated ? — I received a preparatory education in a French College in Boulogne Sur Mer, I then w’cnt through the usual course of Maynooth College, and spent two years on the Dunboyne Establishment. 3. For what class did you enter Maynooth ? — I entered for the class of rhetoric. 4. Have you had the means of knowing the course of instruction in other colleges and seminaries ; and if so, where, and to what extent ? — I have had an opportunity of knowdng the course of studies in the College of St. Sulpice in Paris, in the Irish College there, in some of the colleges in Rome, and have conversed with the professors of many other colleges on the subject of ecclesiastical education. 5. Did you fill any office iu any other college or seminary before you became con- nected with x\ll-Hallows ? — I was Vice-President of the Irish College in Paris for four years before I entered xVll-IIallows. 6. How long has the College of All-Hallows been in existence ? — Nearly eleven years. 7. Will you state to the Commissioners the object for which that College was instituted ? — That College was established exclusively in order to supply priests for the foreign missions — I mean, all missions out of Ireland, chiefly those where English is spoken. 8. How many students are there now in your College? — Ninety-two. 9. Are there any bishops in the colonies from your College? — No, it has been too recently established. 1 0. Can you state how many priests your College has sent out in each year since its for- mation ? — During the first years very few could have been sent out, but the average num- ber since its foundation is about thirteen. 11. Will you state, as nearly as you can, the distribution, among the several parts of the Distrilmtion of world, of the missionaries sent from the College ? — To British America, North and South, we have sent about fourteen, to the United States about forty, to the East Indies twenty- ° two, to the Mauritius and Africa six, to the AYest Indies thirteen, to New Zealand and Australia thirteen, to England and Scotland twenty-seven; besides this number about 140 students who entered our College have left it : some gave up the ecclesiastical state of their own accord, a few were requested to do so by us, and the far greater number of the 140 have gone to other colleges, chiefly in the United States, and I presume that a large proportion of them are now engaged in missionary duties in America. 12. Are the students ordained priests in the College? — Some of them were ordained in the house, and some were sent out, and ordained abroad by their bishops. There are 135 whom I look upon as having been educated in the College and fitted for priests’ orders. 112 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. iath October, 1853. Xcry Kev. David Mori.arty, u.u. Sources of revenue of All-Hallows College. Enioluuients of Pro- fessors and Officers of All-Hallows College. Society for the Pro- pagation of the Fiiith. Other institutions supplying priests for foreign missions. Carlow College. Waterford College. Foreign Colleges. Maynooth. 13. Those who were prepared at your College went out on tlie foreign mission? — Yes. 14. TIow is the College supported ? — It is supported partly by charitable contributions, partly by grants from the Society for the Propagation of the Faith, in Paris, partly by small pensions paid by the students, and partly by contributions from the bishops in the colonies, for whom the students are intended ; those contributions which the bishops make towards the support of the students, may be considered as money from tlie Society for tbe Propagation of the Faith, from which the bishops receive that money, and, finally, by contributions from the Directors, inasmuch as all the money that we receive for any spiritual functions, such as chaplaincies, masses, or preaching, we throw into a common fund for the support of the College. 1.5. IVhat do you mean by the term, tlie Directors? — By the Directors of the College 1 mean the President, deans, and ])rofcssors. 16. Do any of the foreign bishops send students to your College as their subjects? — Yes. 17. AYere they sent to you from abroad ?— Some few have been sent to us. 18. Have the bishops in the colonies any right to nominate? — None whatever. 19. Are there any burses in your College from tlie colonies? — No. 20. Or the British possessions abroad ? — No. 21. "What are the salaries and emoluments of the Professors and Officers of the College ? None : we receive no salaries, but food and raiment are provided for us, from the funds of the College. 22. From what sources, speaking generally, are the missionaries sent by you from your College supjiorted ? — "Where there is no establishment, such as e.xists in the iMauritius, Australia, and Canada, and whei-e the congregations are not sufficiently numerous to support a clergyman, they are supported from funds allocated to the different missions, by the Association of the Ifi-opagation of the Faith. 23. What is the nature of the Society to wliich you have referred as the Society for the Pro])agation of the Faith, and what is the manner in which its funds are collected ? — The Society of the Propagation of the Faith is directed, in the first instance, by two committees, one sitting in Lyons and the other sitting in Paris ; they are chiefly lay French gentlemen ; all persons throughout the world contributing one half-penny per week become associates of the Society. 24. It is the same as is known usually liy the name of the Society of Lyons ? — Yes. I find that the allocations for last year to the missions in the British Fmpire amounted to £43,400, and the grants made to the United States amounted last year to £44,000 sterling. 25. By British possessions, do you mean those exclusive of the British Islands? — Including the whole of the British Empire — to England and Scotland a certain amount is given. The gi’ants by the Society of the Propagation of the Faith are always made to the bishop, and he distributes the money received from the Society amongst his missionaries as thev »uiy want it. Where a large congregation exists there is no necessity for giving a special grant to a priest. 26. Can von state whether the priests for foreign missions' are supplied from any other | college besides All-Hallows ? — Yes, they are supplied from Carlow, where tliere is a foun- dation, educating about thirty students for the foreign missions ; and they have been sup^ plied in some number from Waterford. 27. Especially to Newfoundland ? — Yes, and to missions in England. 'Waterford College i is a diocesan seminary : the number of young men educated there generally exceeded the number needed in tlie diocese, and bence they have gone to foreign missions. 28. The missionarv establishment of Carlow is distinct from the diocesan establishment, is it not ? Yes, it is in the College, but the foreign missionaries are kept entirely separate from the other students. I 29. Are tlie foreign missions supplied from any foreign college ? — Yes they are. If | Ave speak of those out of the British Empire, they are supplied chiefly from foreign j colleges: from the missions Etrangeres, the St. Esprit, in Paris, from the different estab- lishments of the priests of the congregation of St. Vincent de Paul, from the Propa- a,-anda in Home, and from all the Colleges of the religious orders. The missions in the British Empire are supplied partially, too, from those foreign colleges that I have mentioned just nOAA'. 30. Are von aware tvhether any of the priests that have been educated at Maynooth, have, in the last eight years, gone on foreign missions ? and if so. under u hat circumstances and in what number '? — 1 believe some have gone, but I have reason to think that the num- ber has been very small. It usually happens in this Avay, that a student after having completed his course at Maynooth, or being near to its completion, feels a desire of propagating the Gospel, and of doing an act of greater charity than if he remained at home. He then asks leave of his bishop to go upon the foreign mission, and that leave is some- times granted, but 1 knoAV it is as often refused. 31. "it is generally only granted, is it not, in a case Avhere the bishop has no need of his services at home ? Yes. A few cases, I believe, have occurred in Avhich persons went upon the foreign missions, because their families had emigrated Avithin the last fcAV years, and they wished to go to the country Avhere their families resided. 32. Is there any record kept at l\laynooth of those gentlemen who leave the country for forei'Hi missions ? — 1 should think not. I should also state that a number of Irish priests, ; O MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 113 M’ho avo now upon the foreign missions, wont out after spending some years upon the Irish mission. 33. There are some l)i.shops of the lloman Catliolic Clnirch at ])resent, arc there not, in the East Indies, who liavo been students at iMavnooth ? — Yes, three. 34. Will you mention their names? — Dr. Carew, archbishop in Calcutta; Dr. Fcnelly, bishop in ]\Iadras, and Dr. IMurphy, bishop in Hyderabad. 35. Are you aware whether there are any other bishops in Tier }.Iajesty’s foreign pos- sessions who have been students from Maynootii ? — Dr. Murphy, who is llisho]) of Adelaide, in Southern Australia; Dr. Smith, tlic late Archbishop of Port of Spain, Trinidad, was educated at ]\Iaynooth, hut as. an extern ; he was educated, I believe, .as an extern, hecau.se being avowedly intended for the foreign missions, he would not he admitted as a member of the College. He was allowed to lodge in the town of Maynooth, and to attend the lectures. That was the only instance tliat I know of, of an extern student having been educated at Maynooth. He died about two years ago. 3G. Is the class of extern students recognised by the Statutes of jMa3-nooth? — I think not. 37. Is it within your knowledge that those students of IMaynooth who have gone forth upon foreign missions are under the ecclesiastical su]ierintendence of the hishojis whom you have mentioned, and Avho have also been students at iMaynooth ? — If we s]>eak of those who went in the last eight years, I should he inclined to say, no ; though I cannot he certain, but at the time these bishops went to their missions, some students went with them. 38. Is there any bishop from Maynooth, at the present time, in the United States? — The Archbishop of St. Louis, in the state of ilissouri, the Most Ileverend Dr. Kenrick 39. Had they, any of them, gone out from Maynooth prior to their appointment ? — The Bishop of Hyderabad w’cnt out as a priest from iMaynooth, the Archbishop of Calcutta, and the Bishop of iMadras, went out as bishops from Maynootii. 40. From this country, you mean, do you not, not from Jlaynooth ? — No ; I mean from IMaynooth. One was a professor of theology in Maynooth when he accepted the appoint- ment, and another was bursar. 41. Were they ap[)ointed bishops immediately from being students, or had they fulfilled other capacities either in the ministrv or as ]irofessors, and how long after their education had been completed w’ere they appointed bishops? — The Archbishop of Calcutta was for several years a professor in the College, and was appointed bishop wdiile professor. Tlie Bishop of Madras w'as bursar of the College, and was appointed after he had held the bursarship for some years. The Bishoj) of Hyderahad went out as a clergyman, and was appointed bishop after having been some }’ears in the ministry in India. 'The Archbishop of St. Louis w'as for some }'ears in the ministry in Dublin, and in America, before he was appointed Archbishop of St. Louis. Dr. Murpln% Bishop of Adelaide, was for several years on the mission in England, and for some years, 1 think, on the mission in Australia, before he was appointed bishop. I can sa}- with sufneient certaintv that no one is edu- cated in Maynooth for the foreign missions. I am quite certain that the President wmuld not receive any person who would enter for that avowed purjjose. I know' that the Pre- sident, on a late occasion, refused to allow' a person to bo ordained in the College for tlic foreign missions, and that the bishop of that student’s diocese had him ordained upon his own dimissorial letters, and then transferred him to the foreign mission. 42. Is it within your knowdedge that any of the Boman Catholic clergv, having cures in Ireland have gone out W'ith emigrants from this country to the United States? — I know that numbers within the last seven or eight years, having cures in Ireland, have gone to America in consequence of the emigration of their people. 43. There was one instance, was there not, in which a parish priest emigrated with his flock ? — That was the case of the Bev. IMr. Hoare, in the county of Wexford, who took with him a large number of flirmers and labourers, with the intention of founding a settle- ment in America. I do not know' of any other. 44. Out of the thirty at Carlow, do jiou know' how' many annually go out of that number ? — 1 cannot sav. 45. Can you inform the Commi.ssioners how' man}' of the foreign bishops, that is, bishops in her Majesty’s foreign possessions, have been educated at the College of Carlow' ? — None that I am aw'arc of. 1 should say that not one has been educated at the ^Missionary College at Carlow'. It is of the same date as our ow'ii College. 40. Is it within your know'ledge that any other Boman Catholic bishops in her Majesty’s foreign possessions had been educated at any of the seminaries in Ireland ? — 1 do not know' of any. 47. You mentioned Carlow' and 'Waterford as being two Seminaries at which students W'ere educated for the foreign missions ; are there any others ? — No. 48. Of how' many years docs the full course in your College consist? — Of six years. 49. At w’hat age do they come in to the College ? — The age of entrance may be generally from seventeen to twenty-two. 50. Do any of the students from Maynooth come to you to he finished and prepared for the foreign missions? — No ; 1 have only known one case where a student came merely for ordination, not to studv. 51 Will you state the course of studies allotted to each year, and each period of every year, and the number of lectures the students in each class in the year attend ? — The <1 October, 1853. la Mery Rev. Davi I Moriarty, d.u. Bishop.s abroad win were Maynootii students. In her Majesty's foreign possessions. United States. No person educated in iMaynooth for foreign missions. R. C. clergy who liave gone to America with emigrants. Length of course in All-ilaliows College. 114 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. 13/A October, 1853. la Very Rev. D.ivid Moriarty, d.d. Course of studies in All-IIallows College, first year of the course Is devoted to humanity — I mean to the study of Greek and Latin. Mathematics are studied concurrently. TIic second year of tlie course is chiefly devoted to the study of logic, metaphysics, and ethics. The third year of the course, or the first of theology is devoted to the study of what we call loca theolor/ica — the word has a mean- ing analogous to that wliich it has in rhetoric — it signifies the fountains or sources of theological proof, which are with us Scripture and the authority of the Church. It is the business of the students, during that year, to prove the authenticity, integrity, and veracity of the books of the Old and New Testament, and to deduce from tliem the divinity of the iMosaic and of the Christian dispensation ; to enter into all the subsidiary questions of the utility, necessity, and possibility of revelation, the possibility and the vis j^rohativa of miracles, and to rebut all the objections which infidels make against the sacred books, whether drawn from the apparent contradictions of the sacred volume with itself, with the discoveries of science, with history, or with reason. After having established the divinity of the Christian religion, we come to the treatise De Vera Ecclesid, and we exa- mine which is the true Church — we examine what the attributes of that true Church are, what its authority, and where the authority of the Church resides. This takes us into the questions concerning general councils, and the supremacy of tlic Pope. 52. What books do you use for those questions concerning the Church especially ? — The treatise which we use as a text-book is that of Mgr. Bouviei', the present Bishop of Mans, in France. 5.3. Will you continue your description of the course of studies pursued in the College ? — -The students of the three latter years, that is, of the second, third, and fourth year’s theology form one school, going through the throe years’ curriculum in rotation under the same professors. 54. Will you explain what you mean by one school? — By one school I mean a number of students forming one class. Thus, in Maynooth, three classes of theology are com- bined into one school or class of Scripture, In the school, of which I was speaking, four lectures are given in moi’al theology, four lectures on dogmatic theology, and one on canon law. There are two schools of Sacred Scripture. The first comprises the students of humanity and philosophy ; the second school comprises the four classes of theology. There are two lectures a week given in each school, the junior school being occupied in the study of the Old Testament, and the senior occupied in the study of the New. Concurrently with the three first years, two lectures a week are given in natural philosophy. In the three latter }mars two lectures a week are given on ecclesiastical history. Throughout the Avhole course two lectures a week are given on elocution or the delivery of language ; and through- out the whole course, two lectures a week are given on ecclesiastical chant. During the three first years, two lectures a week are given in English grammar and composition. When the professor returns any student as sufficiently advanced in English composition, he is then allowed to spend those two hours in learning some modern European language. The students of the three latter years occupy the time of those two lectures in learning sacred eloquence. 55. Is the paper now before you the curriculum of the course of studies pursued in your College ? — Yes, 56. Have you any objection to deliver it in? — No. [TAe same ivas handed in, and is as follows^] Monday. TL'ESDAV. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. Saturday. S g H tsi 1st f Lecture, \ Theologla Moralis. Theologia Moralis. Sacred Scripture, N ew Testament. Tlieologia Moralis. Theologia hloi-alis. Jus Canonicum. o - Kfi H 7T. < C O 0 2ik1 f Lecture, j Ecclesiastical History. Sacred Eloquence. Elocution, half an hour; Chant, half an hour. Ecclesiastical History. Sacred Eloquence. Elocution, half an hour; Chant, half an hour. O rs iZ ^ .3rd r Lecture. \ Theologia Do^™atica. Tlieologia Dogmatica. Vacat. Theologia Dogmatica. Theologia Dogmatica. .®acred Scripture, New Testament. a H a 1st I Lecture. ( De Locis Tkeologicis. Dc Locis Theologicis. Sacred Scripture, New Testament. De Locis Theologicis. De Locis Theologicis. De Locis Theologicis. iOGIANS 0 lSt year. 2nd f Lecture, j English or other Jlodern Language. Natural Philosophy. Elocution ; Chant. English or other Jlodern Language. N,atural Philosophy. Elocution; Chant. o a 3rd / Lecture. T De Locis Theologicis. De Locis Theologicis. Vacat. De Locis Theologicis. De Locis Theologicis. Sacred Scripture, New Testament. s 1st J Lecture. T Logica ct Metaphysica. ' Logica et Mefcipiiysica. Sacred Scripture, Old Testament. Logica et Metaphysica. Logica et Metaphysica. Logica et Metaphysica. a o 6 a 2nd r Lecture, j English or other Modern Language. Niitur.al Philosophy. Elocution ; Chant. English or other Modern Language. Natural Philosophy. Elocution; Chant. 3rd f Lecture. \ Logica ct Jletaphysica. Logica ct Metaphysica. Vacat. Logica et I^Ietaphysica. Logica et Metaphysica. Sacred Scripture. Old I'estament. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 115 Ci’KRicuLUM OF THE CouiisE OF Study — continued. loi/i October, 1S53. Mo.nd.cy. Tl'KSD.tV. WimNESDAV. TnOltSDAY. Fill PAY. Saturday. 1st s Lecture. ( Latin, Greek, aiul Mathematics. L.atin, Greek, and Mathematics. Sacred Scripture, Old Te.stament. L.itin, Greek, and JIatheniatics. Latin, Greek, .and Mathematics. l.atin, Greek, and Mathematics. — y. < Cml f Lecture, j English Oi ruinmar and Composition. Natural Philosojdiy. Elocution ; Chant. English Grammar iind Composition. Natural Philosophy. Elocution ; Chant. .Ird f Lecture. \ Latin, Greek, and .Mathematics. Latin, Greek, and jMatheimatics. Vacat. latin, Greek, and Mathematics. T.atin, Greek, and Mathematics. Sacred Scripture, Old Testament. 10 . Very Kev. D.-ivkl Moriarty, d.d. All-IIallows College. 57. Will you state any particular means tliat you use in your College for perfecting the students in the knowledge of Englisli composition? — As 1 said before, two lectures a week are given in that department until the professor deems that a student has accpiired a suf- ficient knowledge of English composition. The professor teaches the students the theory of English composition, and requires them to write an Englisli composition every week. The subject is generally historical, with the view of making tliein study history concur- rently with tlieir other studies. Thus, ho dictates a number of questions in profone his- ' tory, and requires that the students will bring, at the next day of the lecture, their answers to those historical questions, written with attention to English style. He reads those compositions in class, and criticises them. Thus, they attain two ends — a good English style, and a knowledge of ]>rof;ine histoiy. 5S. And also a correct orthography ? — Yes. 59. Do you find them deficient in orthograpdiy ? — Yes, at the period of entrance into College. 60. And you set yourselves to overcome that difficulty among others, do you not ? — Yes. 61. And the course you have described to the Commissioners has the effect of cor- recting them in orthograpliy, as well as in style? — Y'es. 62. Are you of opinion that the deficiency in orthography is on the increase or decrease, as far as your observation goes ? — I do not think it would be possible to answer that ques- tion, because the defect of a student in that respect, or his proficiency, will have depended altogether on accidental circumstances previously to his entrance. 63. Do you think that there are no inlluences afloat now increasing or decreasing that preliminary literary condition of the young men who come into the clerical state? — No. If those young men had the advantage of attending the National Schools or the Schools of the Christian Drothers, their orthography would be improved ; but, generally speaking, they have not attended those schools. It is the only general influence wffiich I think could act upon them. 64. Do you think that it is of great importance that this English training should take place among the students, to enable them afterwards to exercise their office of preachers ? — I ; think it a matter of absolute necessity, to enable them to mix in society as gentlemen, or : to discharge efficiently their duties as clergymen. 65. Have you any students who have been at National Schools? — Very few. I 66. But you have some, have you not? — A"es, we have some. 67. What is the distribution of the hours of the day in your College, and how is that distribution applied to the spiritual and pastoral training of the students ?— The rules of our College, of which I can give a copy in evidence, will give the distribution of the time during the day. \_The same ivas handed in ; vide Appendix. ~\ We rise at five o’clock ; half-past five, morning ])rayer and meditation ; quarter-past six, mass ; quarter to seven, study; half past eight, breakfast, followed by recreation ; quarter-past nine, study ; half- past nine, first lecture ; half-past ten, second lecture ; then half an hour recreation ; twelve, study ; two, third lecture ; three, reading tlie New Testament, and particular examen of conscience for ten minutes ; a few verses of the New Testament are read as a devotional exercise ; at ten minutes j)ast three, dinner, followed by recreation till five ; then a visit of seven minutes to the Blessed Sacrament, followed by study till half-past j seven ; at that time they recite a jiart of the Rosary of the Blessed Virgin, which occupies I about ten minutes ; then spiritual instruction is given for twenty minutes ; at eight, supper, 1 followed by recreation till nine ; at nine o'clock, night prayer, followed by reading of the subject of meditation for the following morning ; and at half-past nine they retire to re.st. 68. They read from the pulpit during dinner, do they not? — Yes. 69. Is the hour of rising throughout the whole year five o’clock ? — No ; there is an excep- tion marked in the rule whicli I have handed in. 70. What is the exception ? — It is from the 1st of November to Low Sunday; then the hour of rising is at six, and all the exercises at that period are half an hour later. 71. Have all the students separate rooms? — No, they sleep in dormitories; but we are now engaged in the building of a house in which about thirty to forty will have separate rooms. We think it desirable tliey should have separate rooms. 72. You mentioned that thcre*was reading during the hour of breakfast and during the hour of dinner ; do tlie professors and the students take their meals together ? — They all take their meals together, students and T)rofessors. q 2 Kiiglish Composi- tion. Ortliograpli/. Distribution of the hour.s of the clay in All-IIallows College. 116 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. \-Mh October, ioT Very Kev. David Moriarty, d.d. All-IIallows College. Professor-s and stu- dents associate at 7iieals. Importance of this arrangement. Association of pro- fessors and students during period of recreation. Other duties of the j)rofessors towards the students. Ileligious instruc- tion. 73. Do von consider it of importance that that course should be followed ? I conside it of the greatest importance. 74. Will you state for what reason? — In the first place, I consider it of importance, inasmucla as it accustoms the student to a gentlemanly tone of feeling, by raisin o- him in his social position, I think this is particularly important in our circumstances, when we have to transfer a number of young men to a much higher station in society than that Avliich they previou.% occupied. It becomes then particularly necessary to make them feel for years before they begin to move in society that they belong to that class with vvhich tliey are hereafter to associate. I think, also, that this association with their supe- riors and with the distinguislied visitors who will occasionally dine at the College, imposes upon them a gentlemanly restraint, and that it improves and refines their manners. 75. Do you think that such training is very necessary for ])ersons who are to alter their positions in society so much in their ])vogrcss through the College ? So necessary do I think it, that I should not wish to have any thing to do with ecclesiastical education in any College where that course was not followed. 76. Is it equally essential, in- your opinion, for those who are intended for the mission at home as for those that go abroad ?— There is some difierence, but not much. In the missions abroad our students commence to occupy a responsible position almost imme- diately after their ordination ; they come into official intercourse with the civil and military authorities in tlse British colonies and dependencies, and I therefore am more an.xious that they should acquire the maimers and habits which that responsible position demands. 77. Do you not think that a similar intercourse takes place between clergymen and the authorities in this country, wliich would rc(]uire all that you seem to exact from clergy- men going to foreign missions ?— Not exactly to the same extent, because an Irish priest is for some yeaivs a curate, and does not commence to occupy so responsible a position until lie has been perhaps for several years on the mission ; but I think the difference is very trivial. 78. Do the professors and the students of the College all dine in one refectory ? — Yes. 79. Have you an arrangement at all similar to what is termed the high table in the Col- leges of Oxford and Cambridge? — The professors’ table is at the end of the room, and the students’ tables run in qiarallel lines at riglit-angles with it. 80. You allow your students to converse during dinner ; do you not? — Occasionally. 81. Will you have the goodness to explain what you mean by the term occasionally? During about ten weeks of the year, two months of the summer vacation, and two weeks which occur during the year, that is, the week of Christmas, and the week of Easter, and ujion different festivals which occur during the other inontlis. 82. Is it the habit of the professors to converse at their own table ? — Not while reading goes on in the refectory ; the professors must keep silence as well as the students. 83. Do the students and the jn'ofessors associate often during the hours of recreation? — Yes ; it is one of the principles of our system that the professors should associate with the students, not only at the time of meals, but also in recreation ; they join with them in their amusements, and we consider that such association with the students is of the greatest importance. I think that it habituates the students to a love for those in autho- rity, that it guards them against any thing like a blind partizanship with q^ersons in a lower station, and that, on the whole, it gives them a respect for established order. 84. You have not found that such association is at all unfavourable to disciqdine ? — Not at all, but quite the contrary. 85. Or that it lessens the respect of the student for the professor ? — Never. 86. What is the number of the q)rofessors and siq)criors ? — Nine. 87. In fact you are one to ten students? — Yes. 88. Do you consider that kind of social training an important matter with reference to the education for the ministry in this country, in addition to the intellectual and moral training? — I do, decidedly. 89. Is it the practice of the professors to perform any other duties towards the students besides those of mere teaching; for instance, to attend to their spiritual or moral or j)rac- tical training? — Yes; it is one of the principles of our system, that all the directors and the q)rofessors shall attend, as far as their particular duties will allow, the spiritual exercises ])erformcd by' the students. We consider this qn-actice of the utmost imqjortance, upon the common principle that example is better than precept, and also because the students will perform their sqnritual exercises, not as a task imposed, but as duties becoming their state, and they will be more likely to contract permanent habits of qhety and order. 90. AA'hat is the practice in your College as to the religious instruction of the students? — In the first place, we consider that the study of theology' and Scripture involves a large amount of spiritual instruction. Secondly, the qu'actice of daily meditation also instructs them in sqjiritual matters. Thirdly, the q^ractice of the particular examen of conscience, which means an examination uqion a certain virtue which the examiner qjroposes to acquire, or a certain defect which lie proposes to correct in his character, also contributes to spiri- tual instruction, but the q)riuciq)al direct means which we use is an instruction of twenty minutes each day upon matters aqqiertaining to ascetic theology. 91. Will you exqilain what you mean by' ascetic theology' ? — It is distinguished from moral theology in this : that while moral theology determines our duties, ascetic 3IIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 117 theology teaches us how to form within us a perfect Christian cliaracter ; thus it analyses the cUn'erent passions to which we are subject, ami j)oints out the means by whicli tlicy may he corrected. It also analyses the dillerent virtues and their various offices, and teaches us the manner in which tliose virtues may be acquired ; it enters into the nature and progress of temptation, and teaches the ways by which it may be resisted. On the whole, it may he delined to he the science of Christian perfection. 9 ' 2 . It is a training of the individual character ? — Yes, to Christian perfection. 03. Is what you si)eak of a])plicd to individual subjects of meditation, when you refer to the examination ? — 'fhe practice of particidar exameii consists in this, tlie student is advised to considt his spiritual director as to what ought to be the subject of his particidar examen. He will beg of him to ])oint out to him what defect there is in his character which he ought to correct, or what virtue he ought particularly labour to acquire ; and he then s])cnds a certain time each day in examining himself uj)on that ])articular j)oint, endeavouring every day to lessen the number of his faults, or to practise an increased number of acts of virtue. t)4. What is the practice with regard to s])iritnal instruction? — In the spiritual instruc- tion we use as our chief text book the “ Christian Perfection ” of II odriguez, a Spanish Jesuit : it is the duty of the person charged with the S])iritual instruction, to give exhorta- tion frequently, either explanatory of the work of Podriguez. or upon any other subjects on which lie may deem it necessary to instruct the student ; for instance, it is my duty to go through the rule of the house, taking each exercise of the day, and pointing out to tliem how they ought to ])erform those exercises in the most perfect manner, so as to render themselves more acceptable to Almighty God by their performance. 95. All those exercises and instructions yon have described tend to withdraw them from merely secular affixirs and pursuits, and to impress them with a spiritual character? — I think the more you fill the mind of an ecclesiastical student with spiritual knowledge, and the more you im])ress his heart with spiritual affections, the more you withdraw him from secular or political pursuits. I think, too, that sucli training, by generating and teaching Christian meekness, will give him a distaste for meddling in secular affairs ; besides, we specially instruct them that it is their duty, as clergymen, not to interfere in political jiar- ties, that they are debtors to the Greek and to the barbarian, to the wise and to the unwise ; and as all persons, no matter to xvliat political party they may belong, must avail them- selves of their ecclesiastical ministry, it is their duty to avoid, as far as possible, what might deter any one from availing himself of their spiritual services. 9fi. You do not shrink from speaking to them directly upon their conduct in relation to political affairs — not, of course, as to embracing one party or another, but as to their con- duct in relation to political affairs? — No; I think it my duty to tell them that, when in the sacred ministry, they should generally abstain from meddling in political affairs, for a clergyman can seldom do so without causing a spirit of hostility amongst those members of his own flock who belong to an opposite political party. Our maxim is — no politics but religion, no country but the Church. 97. Do you not also dread that it may excite angry feelings in his own mind ? — Yes ; I think that it withdraws very much from spiritual recollection, and from that gentleness xvhich should always characterize a Christian minister. 98. Ai’e the young men who go out from you exposed to the same difficulties and draw- backs which the preachers in the Irish Mission Avould be liable to meet with ? — ^There is one remarkable difficulty they have to meet, that is the question of slaveiy in the United States ; and even though this Avould appear to be one of the strongest cases that can be })ut to a clergyman, yet, my instruction to them always is, that their business is solely xvitli the souls of men, and that whether bond or free, they may be saved. 99. Do you think that the students from your College are much exposed to political parties in the states to xvhich they go ? — Only in the United States, that I am axvare of, Avhere the question of slavery is so much agitated. 100. AYould the training which you pursue at Drumcondra unfit a man for such a mis- sion as he would find at home ? — Decidedly not. I think it would be the more requisite for him, where the temptation to interfere in political affairs is greater. 101. Do you find that your training does not unfit a man to encounter any hardship or pri- vation to Avhich he may be exposed ? — I think not, for our system of discipline is rather severe : early rising, very plain food, I’ather uncomfortable beds, and, on the whole, there is as little of domestic comfort as in any other College. 102. Does it in any way unfit them for intercourse with persons of the meanest condi- tion, or of the lowest education ? — No ; 1 think, on the contrary, that students so trained Avoidd be more courteous and condescending to persons in a low station. 103. Ilis style of manners is not so raised as to make him less acceptable or intelligible to persons of inferior education and station ? — The humblest people are pleased and grati- fied by delicate and refined inanners in a clergyman. 104. You have used the term “directors” when describing some of the officers of the college over xvhich you preside. Is there any individual connected xvith your College xvho belongs to the Society of Jesus ? — No. 105. xire all the persons connected with your College secular clergy ? — All, except one, who belongs to the Carmelite order. 106. Is he Drofessor of Theology ? — Yes, he is Professor of Dogmatic Theology. 107. In the preparation of the students in your College for their future duties, xvhat do you do as to instructing them in the composition of sermons ? — As I said before, we have I'ith October, la Very Itcv. David Moriarty, d.d. Moaning of “Ascetic 'I lieology.” AVork of Rodrigtiez on Christian perfec- tion. Effects on individual character of sudi exercises and in- structions. Teacliing of witness to his students as to interference in Xrolitics. Instance — Slavery Qtiestion in United States. Effect of refined manners in inter- course with the x>oor. Composition of sermons. 118 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOA\ 13(/i October, 1853. 10 . Very licv. David Moriarty, d.d. Missions. Instruction in catecliising. Catechising in parish church. Essential importance of training in preach- ing and catechising. S.acred music. two lectures a week duriu" the three latter years of the course devoted to the Class of Ecclesiastical Eloquence. It is the duty of the professor in that class first to explain the theory of ecclesiastical eloquence : then the students are required every week to write a short exposition of the Gosjjel for tlie following Sunday, according to the way suggested by the catechism of the Council of Trent, which is taken as the text-book in that class. They are required to introduce ap])ropriate texts of Scripture on the topics occurring, texts from the Holy Fathers, examples from the Lives of the Saints, or pointed, practical sayings of some pious author, and to mark points for practical exhortation. Every week the students are required to write, in a finished manner, a portion of a sermon ; as, for instance, one week they write an exordium of a sermon upon the Gospel for the next Sunday, in the subsequent week they develop an argument, and the next week they write the conclusion of a sermon. Tliey are also required to suggest various views of the subjects which the Gospel of the day suggests, to point out the differences between a regular sermon, a hoinil}', an exhortation, a panegyric, and to write occasionally in accordance with each of those forms of instruction. Every year a special time is given in this class to the expla- nation of tlic s])iritual exercises of St. Ignatius, with a view to enable students to conduct retreats or missions. By missions we mean a series of sermons delivered every day for a week or a month, and arranged in a certain order, Avhich is marked out in the exercises of St. fgnatius. 108. Are there any other means practised? — There is theological and Scriptural teach- ing. I consider, too, tliat the spiritual lecture given to them for twenty minutes each day is very well calculated to prepare them for instructing people, as it gives them that ascetic and spiritual knowledge which must form a very large proportion of their sermons. Again, daily meditation is particularly calculated to prepare tlicin for preaching. 1 09. When you speak of the daily exhortation for about twenty minutes, does that follow the reading which you have described before? — I mentioned before that the reading and exhortation alternated. Twenty minutes are allowed for spiritual instruction ; sometimes a sjnritual book is read, sometimes the matter read is explained, sometimes exhortation is given upon other subjects. 110. What is read upon those occasions? — The work chiefly read is the Christian Perfec- tion of Bodriguez. 111. Is any other hook used ? — We use the Conferences of ilassillon, and many others. Again, we have a practice of interrogating the students at spiritual lecture on the subject of their morning’s meditation, requiring them to state the reflections which they made. I consider that this practice tends to prepare tliem for preaching. The Junior Class of English Composition and tlie Class of Elocution tend, of course, to the same end. 112. During wliat period of the course does that part of the discipline continue which you have described with regard to the preparation of sermons ?— During the three latter ' years. 1 13. Then for what period of the course have you lectures on elocution? — During the whole course. 114. How often? — Twice a week. 115. You have lectures in English, have you not ? — Yes, twice a week for the three first years of the course. 116. And for the last three you continue those exercises Avhich you have described with reference to composition itself? — Yes, with regard to the matter and form of sermons. 117. What practical means do you take to teach them catechising, as contradistinguished , from tlie exercise of preaching ? — We assemble the children of the neighbourhood on Sun- day, and divide them according to their proficiency into several classes, and place a student over each class, whose business it is to catechise them ; we also send some of the students to the parish church, and require tliem to catechise every Sunday the children of the parish assembled in the parish church. j 118. And the parish priest makes no objection ?— On the contrary, I am quite sure he ! feels grateful for such assistance. i 119. Do you find it necessary, according to the regulations, that the professors should i accompany those students on such an occasion ? — No, I should rather trust students, and show them, by that confidence, that I do not fear that they will do any thing unbecoming their character. 120. In other words, you consider this to be a preparatory step to the great mission upon which they will afterwards be sent ? — Yes. 121. At what period of the course do the students go out for that puiq^ose ? — At any time of the course the}" may be I’equired. 122. How far is it to the parish church ? — About a mile. 123. Is it your opinion that no ecclesiastical training is sufficient without attention being given to the two matters of preaching and catechising ? — Such is my opinion. 124. Is any instruction or training given to the students in sacred music ; and if so, will you state in what manner ? — Yes ; there are two lectures a week during their whole course. We have employed lay professors, and we have also had during tlie last two years the services of a Cingalese clergj'inan, who had been the master of the choii’ in the Propaganda in Rome. At present one of the students is the professor. 125. You have an organ in your Chm'ch in All-Hallows, have you not ? — Yes. 126. Do you think that an organ in a College of that kind is useful for the purpose of ' training the students for Church music ? — I tliink it is. 127. Do you consider the practice of teaching ecclesiastical music of importance; and, ; :^IL\UTES OF EVIDENCE. 119 if so, ■will you state for what reasons? — The exigencies of onr ritual and the decrees of councils render it ohligatory ; and tlie experience of most of the missions proves, that when a clergyman is a ])roHcient in ecclesiastical chant, he can render very great services to religion. Wo have had the example of many missions which have been for more than one hundred years destitute of the ministry of a pastor, and where religions habits have been preserved sinpdy on account of their knowledge of the plain chant. Jlany Indian tribes in Canada and Nova Scotia, who have been destitute of the ministry of clergymen for about 120 years, assemble every Sunday at a fixed hour, and sing with the most perfect precision tlie ditferent parts of the mass. Wo have also found it extremely useful in the stations of the British army in India, that the clergymen should have a knowledge of eccle- siastical music, for chanted services have been found an efficacious means of assembling the soldiers in the evening at the chapels* in the cantonments, and thus withdrawing them from occasions of dissipation. ] 28. Are your youug men nine hours a day at work ? — Yes. 129. But there is I’ather more variety in the studies than at IMaynooth ? — Yes, 130. Are there any means taken to obviate the effects of too great a monotony in the course of study by festival days or otherwise ? — In the first place the first Wednesday of the month is a day of recreation — every Wednesday there is a public walk — and on certain festivals the professors and students spend the evening together, and amuse each other by speeches and songs, or whatever other means might increase festivity. 131. Is that useful in breaking the monotony of the studies, and at the same time in promoting the health of the students? — I think it very useful: it guards against a spirit of tor[)or and laziness Avhich creeps over students when they are continuously applied to the same duties without any interruption, and I also think it very useful in promoting a kind feeling between the students themselves, and between them and the professors. 132. The president occasionally gives a vacant day not marked in the rules, but upon some public occasion, or when a bishop comes and asks him, does he not ? — No ; I consider that that would be a very bad practice. Anything arbitrary in a rule is bad, and if the president can do things of this kind, or docs them, he is liable to continual demands, and he will cause displeasure when he finds it his duty to refuse. 133. Do you think that the recreation of the students is sufficiently provided for without some such means being adopted ? — I sometimes fear that our work is too hard, but the short course which our students have, and the very great defects of their preparatory education, render the closest application of which they are capable necessary. 134. Do you prefer having them early or late to enter into your College ? — The rule of our Church, that no one can be ordained priest until he is twenty-four years of age, renders it somewhat inconvenient that they should enter at a younger age than seventeen or eighteen ; but if we had the means of enlarging our course, I would prefer, and it is the wish of the Church that they should enter at a much younger age. 135. What is the length of your annual vacation ?— -Two months in summer; there is also a vacant week at Christmas, and a vacant -week at Easter, there are some other vacant days in the course of the year. 136. When does the academic year begin and end? — It begins the fii\st day of Septem- ber, and it ends on the last day of June. 13T. Is it usual for the students to go into the country during the long summer vaca- tion ? — It is. 138. Do you find that they generally return with fresh vigour and energy? — Yes; I think it is a matter of necessity that they should go to the country for some time, at least every second year. \_TIie Witness uithdreiv.l Monday, ITtii October, 1853. The Very Eev. David Moriarty, d.d., further examined. Chairman . — From what part of Ireland is your College chiefly supplied with students ? — From the ecclesiastical province of Ulster, and principally from the counties of Cavan, Longford, Leitrim, and Louth. At present in the house w*e have twenty-three from the province of IMunster, three from Connaught, eight from Leinster, and the remainder from the ecclesiastical province of Ulster. 2. Does the ecclesiastical province of which j’ou speak comprise the county of Jleath ? — Yes; and also it includes Louth, Longford, and I believe a part of Leitrim, Westmeath, and a part of King’s County. I cannot speak accurately in this matter, as my business lies ! with the missions abroad. 3. What is the state of preparation as to studies, in which you find the average of the i students wdio apply to you for admission ? — The state of preparatory education is most discouraging, and embarrassing in the management of collegiate studies, as w*e are obh'ged to devote considerable attention to elementary branches which should have been acquired before entering college, but wdiich, unfortunately, are generally neglected. Thus, the students are generally very deficient in primary education, that is in correct reading and writing of the English language. nth October, 1853. la Very Kev. David Moriarty, d.d. Ecclesiastical music. Its importance. Eccreation at All- Hallows. Vacation. 17 th October, 1853. 10 . Very Rev. David Moriarty, d.d. Sources of supply of students to All- Hallows College. General state of pre- paration at entrance. 120 MAYNOOTII COMMISSIOX. 17 Ih Octnl cr, 185". 1 ^ Very llev. Dav'il Moi'iarly, n r. Prcparalory educa- tion. Scliools of the Chr’'-’- tian Brotliers. IVhetlier means of j>reparatory educa- tion have increased, cr the contrary. School at Mount !Melloray. Castleknock semi- nary. Defective system of preparatory educa- tion in Ireland com- pared witli that in Prance and England. 4. In tlic accent do you find them deficient? — Yes. 5. In writing, do you include .spelling and the construction of sentences? — Both. If they attended the schools of tlie Christian Brothers, or the National Schools, this deficiency would be supplied ; Itut young men getting a classical education in this country, generally attend neitlicr tlie one nor the otlier. G. Is it the fact that yon have no students in your College who have attended the National Schools ? — 'fhere are very few. 7. Would your observation justify yon in speahing of those who have attended the National Schools, as being better grounded in those ])ritnary matters than the students generally are? — Certainly : I also include the schools of the Christian Brothers. 8. What is the nature of tlie schools of the Christian Brothers ?— They are primary schools for the edncition of the poor, for male children only. 9. The male children, without any reference to profession or occupation in life ? — Yes; but they are chietly intended for the education of the humbler classes. 10. With a view to entering into orders? — No; irrespectively of any particular calling. 1 1. What is the state of tlieir ])reparation as to secular education? — As to secular, or as it may be termed, secondary educatioii, which consists of a knowledge of Latin, Greek, ami mathematics, 1 sa\' that their education is also very defective ; they generally know how to translate Latin and Greek, but have a very shallow knowledge of those languages. 12. You mean, to translate from the Latin and Greek authors into Engbsh, but not to translate from Ihiglish into Greek and Latin? — Yes, we find them deficient too in a know- ledge of geography, history, and mathematics. 13. Are you able, from your observation of the state of preparation of the students applying for admission froin various parts of Ireland, or by any other moans, to state whe- ther the means of local instruction arc greater or less, or better or wor.se now than they formerly were? — I would say that at tlie present time there is an improvement in the method of jireparatory education, and that that improvement is progressive in the country; but the means and opportunities of procuring preparatory education are less than tliey were some years ago. Tlie lamine nearly eliminated classical education ; and the better class of farmers, who used to procure such education for their children, has been broken down or has emigrated. The smaller classical schools are nearly all gone, the masters were in many instances obliged to take refuge in the poorhouse or on the public works, and very tew can | now support their children in the diocesan or provincial seminaries ; but the few schools that now are found in the country, are pursuing a better method of preparatory instruction than was pursued in the classical schools formerly. They are combining with classical education a more extensive study of English and mathematics. This is particularly true of a large school which is superintended by the monks of Mount Melleray, and in which they give a gratuitous education to more than ninety boys. 14. Will you have the goodness to state in wliat ])art of Ireland that school is? — In the neighbourhood of Cappoquin, in the county of Waterford. Among the diocesan semi- naries whieli we have in Ireland at present, the school of Castleknock, in this diocese, may be taken as a perfect model of a jireparatory school for the ecclesiastical state, but the number educated in it for the Church is small. 15. Is that a purely ecclesiastical school? — No. Wo have also in this province the Col- | leges of Carlow and Wexford, which are excellent preparatory Colleges. I would say the same of the Colleges of AYaterford and Thurles, in the province of Munster; of Tuaminthe | province of Connaught, and of Navan. Armagh, Cavan and Belfast, in the ecclesiastical ; province of Ulster. But, as I mentioned before, very few can take advantage of the educa- tion in these Colleges. I should also observe, tliat although the students receive, in diocesan seminaries, a more enlarged, and a more liberal or polite education, they are not, gene- rally, as well grounded in the rudiments of Latin and Greek as they used to be in the old hedge schools. There are remarkable exceptions which it would be invidious to name. lo. AVill you be so good, if you can, as to distinguish these seminai’ies — first of all, those in which they educate students both for the lay and ecclesiastical state? — They are all j mixed schools. 1 7. Up to what age? — The age is not fixed in any case. Those schools generally teach the student until he is fit to enter the class of philosophy in Maynooth. 18. AVill you have the goodness to distinguish., if such a distinction exists, between such of those schools as are simj)ly prep.aratory schools, and such as continue the educa- tion of the student till he is fit to enter into holy orders? — I think the College of Carlow and the College of AA'aterford are the only ones now in Ireland in which the student is educated for holy orders. 1 9. Of those which have been mentioned? — Yes. To return to the question of preparatory education I would say, that the whole system of such education in this country is defective and far inferior to secondary education in France or England. In the collegiate imstitu- tions of France, with which I am acquainted, the students are obliged to make daily trans- lations, carefully written from Greek and Latin authors, bi-weekly translations from French into Latin, and they are required eyery week to make original compositions in French and in Latin prose and jioetry. They are also obliged to commit to memory evci’y day portions of Latin prose and ])oetry, and of French prose and jioetiw. I understand that that is also somewhat the system of the grammar schools of England, and I consider that it is only by some such system that a well educated man can he formed. 20. Are you acquainted with any yery large number of French ecclesiastics? — Haying .AlINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 121 had altogotlicr a residence of more than six years in France, and being almost always amongst ecclesiastics, my acquaintance must he rather extensive. 21. Arc yon disposed to think, from what came under your observation, if there beany superiority generally speaking in point of education on tlie part of the English ecclesiastics as distinguislied from the Irish ecclesiastics, that that is owing to the superiority of the early i)rc[)aratovy education rather than that the late education in the ecclesiastical colleges is more complete or in other respects more satisfactory? — I am of opinion that tlicy arc superior to our ecclesiastics in that education which results from preparatory training, hut they are not superior in theological knowledge. 22. Arc you not of opinion that accuracy depends very much upon early preparatory training; accuracy of thought in connexion with an accurate knowledge of language? — Decidedly. 23. And also that matters of taste arc intimately connected with the distinctions of language ? — Decidedly. 24. Do you think tliat in those two respects the French ecclesiastics have the advantage over the Irish ecclesiastics ? — I do ; and 1 should have stated that the principles of criticism entering largely into the preparatory studies of the grammar schools of France, the taste of the French ecclesiastics and of the French students generally is very much improved thereby, and the habit also of learning by rote the best specimens of Latin and French composition, is particularly well calculated to improve the taste of the students. 25. Is the study of Greek more pursued in the French seminaries than it is in the Irish? — It is less pursued. 26. The study of Greek generally in the French nation is not much pursued, is it? — I think there has been a great improvement in that respect of late, some of the Ministers of Public Instruction, and heads of the French University, caused more attention to he paid to the study of Greek in France. 27. Do the Greek and Latin Fathers form the subject of regular instruction in the semi- naries either of Ireland or France ? — It is not usual. For the last few' years an effort has been made in France to introduce the study of the Greek and Latin Fathers, hut it has as yet met with only partial success. 28. Are you disposed to think, from the attention of learned men in France being called to the study of the Greek language by the ministers whom you have named, that the study of Greek philosophy has advanced in France among ecclesiastics, and that they stud}' it with a little more accuracy in consequence of being l)etter masters of the Greek language? — I cannot say that that has, as yet, affected ecclesiastical studies. 1 alluded chiefly to the impetus given to the study of Plato by M. Cousin. 29. You are acquainted, are you not, wdth the discipline and course of studies jutrsued in the College of St. Sulpice, in Paris ? — Yes. 30. Will you have the goodness to state the course of discipline and education pursued at St. Sulpice, for the purpose of training students for the priesthood ? — I should observe, in speaking of the course of studies and discipline pursued at St. Sulpice, tliat what I say refers to tw'cnty or thirty other colleges of Franco which are directed l)y the Sulpitian community, and that, to a great extent, it will refer to all the ecclesiastical colleges of France, inasmuch as a great number of the directors of those colleges have been educated at St. Sulpice. Now', I liave substantially described that system in describing that wdiich we pursue at All-llallow's; for our founder, after visiting several colleges of France and Italy, decided u]ton adopting the discipline of St. Sulpice ; and he resided there for a long time, in order to learn its spirit and its details. The system of the college may he characterized by a few of its leading features. The first is, that the professors and supe- riors are not salaried. We consider that the students, under such a system, are trained to a greater spirit of disinterestedness, and that they receive Avith more attention and respect the admonitions and instructions addressed to them. 31. What are the Commissioners to understand by the superiors not being salaried? — They simply receive food and raiment. 32. Are there no fees paid to them for tuition ? — No ; our meals are all provided hy the Bursar of the College, and our clothes hy the Vestiarius; hut Ave have nothing to do Avitli proA'idiug either food, or clothes, or any thing else. We receive no salary. The second feature of the system pursued at St. Sulpice is, that the students are raised to a social equality Avith their superiors and professors, Avho take their meals with them in the same refectory, and are even dispersed through the different tables of the students. Those su- periors and professors are not unfrequently men of noble family, occupying a higli position in the Churcli. Thus I have seen a professor Avho Avas the Yicar-General of the diocese of Paris dining at the same table Avith the students. 33. Who Avas, at the time, Vicar-General? — Yes. They also associate with the students in the hours of recreation ; they Avear the same dress ; and in all their intercourse treat the students as their equals in social rank. This idea Avas put fonvard by the founder, M. Olier, w'ho lived about 1650. lie had carved in stone, in the quadrangle of the Col- lege, so that it might meet the eye of the student at entrance, the text of !5t. Paul to the Ephesians, chaj)ter the second — Jam non estis hospites et advenm, sed estis cNes sanc- torum et domestici Dei.” I consider that the advantages of this system are, first, that, as we advance in social position, our feeling of responsibility in the regulation of our conduct increases, and the student Avho, instead of being governed as a schoolboy, is treated as a ’ clergyman and a gentleman, feels that he has taken his place in society, and that he must begin to act as a clergyman and a gentleman should. Secondly, by associating as a friend and companion AA'ith those in authority, his feelings and interests become identified with r I7tli October, is.j:t. 10 . Very U«v. David Moriarty, i>.i>. Comparative educa- tion of Engli.sli and iribli ecclesia.sties. Compartitivc educa- tion of French •'and Irish ecclesiastics. Grceh. Discipline and course of studies in the College of St. Snl- pice, at Taris. Superiors arc not salaried. Association of supe- riors with students. 122 MAYXOOTII CO^iDIISSIOX. 11 th October, 1853. 10 . Very Rev. David Moriarty, d.d. Discipline oftlie Col- lege of St. Sulpice. Surveillance. Paternal discipline. Change of offices. Special means for religious training. Preponderance of spiritual over intel- lectual training. More intellectual training requisite in Ireland. theirs, and he is, tiirongh life, a more moderate and a more obedient man. Thirdly, his manners are refined by associating tvith those tvho have more experience of the ■world. Fourthly, there is a constant effort on the part of tlie snjieriors to form the minds and hearts of the students in their conversations tvitli them. It is true that a superior, in such association witli the students, niiglit act imprudently by speaking lightly of the discijdine of the College, or of his colleagues, or by heating the minds of students with party ques- tions either in Church or State ; but 1 consider that there is much more danger of such an imprudence in the opposite system, where it is likely to take place clandestinely ; and besides, it simply follows, that if there is a professor or superior capable of acting in such a manner, he is not fit for his office under any system. Fifthly, 1 have always observed that the contrary system tends either to produce a spirit of sycophancy or insubordination, or of suspicion of espionage. The Sulpitian system, on the contrary, begets a habit of politeness towards superiors, and even of affection, and at the same time engenders in the students a more manl}’^ bearing. The next thing which I observe in the system of St. Sul- pice is a spirit of trust in the students. 34. Of trust in what respect ? — The absence of suspicion in the superior that the stu- dent would be guilty of any thing derogatory to his position. This spirit of confidence in the students is carried out by the rule which directs them, should they need a dispen- sation from College rule and not find it convenient to ask it, to dispense themselves, and afterwards inform their superiors that they have done so. 35. Is no further surveillance exercised ? — Surveillance is, of course, necessary, in order to form the habits of students, and in order to ascertain their real character ; but in the St. Sulpitian system surveillance is perfectly attained by the association of the superiors Avith the students. They Avatch Avithout Avatching ; the superior is not set over the students like a gaol Avarden. The system of discipline is altogether paternal. It is this same sys- tem wliich Avas carried out AAuth such magnificent results by the great Dr. Arnold of llugby, Avho thus formed some of the greatest men of England. 36. In fact you Avould sa}^ that the surveillance is exercised in the same way as the head of a family Avhich is living together becomes acquainted with all their transactions and their characters, without the necessity of any special watch upon their conduct ? — Pre- cisely. The Sulpitian system, in this respect, rests upon the principle Avhich a German phi- losopher thus expressed : — When Ave treat men as if they Avere Avhat they are, we leave them Avhat they are ; but if Ave treat men as if they Avere what they ought to bo, Ave make them Avhat they ought to be.” 37. Are they perfectly at liberty to form associations amongst themselves at St. Sulpice ? — The rule is the same as that of All-Hallows College : it is recommended not to associate always with the same persons, and to form numerous companies. 38. Is it expected at St. Sulpice that the students from the several dioceses shall associate at special hours together ? — The contrary is insisted upon. 39. Are there any other advantages to Avhich you Avould Avish to refer in the system of St. Sulpice ? — All the superiors and professors are obedient to a president elected by themselves. He can make them change their offices Avhen he thinks proper ; and though a frequent change of this kind is not expedient, yet it is advantageous that it should sometimes occur, for a general interest in all the departments of the house is thus created in each director. A professor aa Iao has been a dean feels more interest in the discipline of the College, and a dean Avho has been a professor feels interested in the studies of the College ; and thus there is harmony in the different departments. 40. Is it therefoi’e the practice in St. Sulpice to select deans from those who have been professors, as Avell as at times to select professors from those AAdio have been deans? — Yes. 41. You stated that a person might dispense himself and aftenA'ards inform his superior; Avithin what time is he expected to do that Avith propriety ? — As soon as he can conve- niently see the superior. In pursuance of Avhat I Avas saying concerning the system of St. Sulpice, I should mention the special means for religious training, which are the daily spiri- tual exercises — meditation for an hour in the morning, assistance at the holy sacrifice of the mass, a particular examen of conscience, spiritual lecture, habitual devotion to the adorable Sacrament, and to the Blessed Virgin. As to the course of studies, it must be admitted that spiritual training preponderates over intellectual training in St. Sulpice — there is more ritual observance, more of Church function than is usual in our Colleges. The dif- ferent circumstances in Avhich we are placed have caused us at All-IIalloAvs to modify the system of St. Sulpice in this respect. Our students having to be throAvn into the great higliAvays of the Avorld Avhere they Avill be in the midst of intellectual actiAuty, and often in antagonism with it, require a more solid and extensive education. A French student having to exercise his ministry in an old Catholic countiw has a certain routine of duty pointed out for him, and hence it seems to me that there is not the same necessity that exists Avith us for an extensive theological education. 42. In other words, you do not consider that it Avonld be safe to leave the Irish students only provided AA’ith the amount of education in this matter Avhich the Fi-ench students receive ? — I think they require more ; but I should say that theological learning in St. Sulpice is of a very excellent character, as is evidenced by the Avorks of the present superior, i\I. Carricre, Avdio is considered one of the greatest living theologians, and as to literary attainments the students are sufficiently prepared in them before entrance. 43. What arc the means adopted at St. Sulpice for instructing students in preaching and in catechising? — I consider that the students are sufficiently prepared as to style and composition before their entrance into St. Sulpice. The matter of their sermons is acquired in theology in their daily meditation, and in their daily S2)iritual lectures, also in a weekly iMl^'UTES OF EVIDENCE. 123 exercise in -wliicli the students arc required to give exhortations u])on the Gospel of the following Sunday. They are also improved in the practice of j)reaching, by attendance every Sunday at their pai-ish church, where the most distinguished ])reachers in France are usually employed in the ])ulpit. They every Sunday teach the catechism to about 2,000 children who are divided into many classes according to their progress in catechetical knowh'dge. 4-1. Do you thinlc that the social training to which }’ou have referred in your answers to he p.articnlarly necessary in Ireland, in addition to moral and intellectual training ? — 1 consider that it is much more necessary in Ireland than in France. Every class of society in France is generally more refined in manner than the corresponding classes in this country, and hence, supposing the class from uhich our students are taken to be the same as that in France, greater attention should be ])aid to the refinement of their manners. 1 also consider that the circumstances in Avhich our country is ])laced, require that greater atten- tion should he paid to the formation of a meek and gentle Christian character. 45. And that you consider would be promoted by the social training which you think is obtained from that mode of communicating between the professors and the students which you have previously described ? — Such is my opinion. 40. Has the adoption of that system in your College jjroduced a good effect ujion the characters of the students ? — ]\Iy ex])erience in our College has confirmed ]ue in the opinion that it is decidedly advantageous both for the formation of character and manners, and such importance do I attach to it that I should sever my connexion with the College if a contrary system were adopted. 47. Do you think that there is any ])eculiarity in the character of the Irish student that would make this system which you have described less ap^dicable to him than to the student of any other country ? — Decidedly not. I have observed the Irish character under that system in the Irish College in Paris, and in the College of All-IIallows. I have seen Irish students trained in the College of St. Sulpico, and in many other Colleges of France, and I always observed that that system produced in them the most beneficial results. So far from there being any peculiarity of character that would render that system unadvisable to be adopted with Irish students, I think that Avhatever peculiarities of character they possess render the adoption of that system more necessary. 48. fVhat was the number of students in St. Sulpice at the period that you were acquainted with it, and the number of professors ? — The number of the students in the theological seminary of St. Sulpice was about 200, and the number of students in the Philoso- phical College, 1 should think, was about 100. I cannot state with any accuracy the num- ber of professors, but I think there were from twenty to thirty occupied in both Colleges. 49. Was it found that the number of the students had any effect in rendering that part of the system more inconvenient and more difficult to carry out ? — No. 50. How many students were there altogether ?— -200 in one College, and about 100 in another. 51. Dp the students in philosopliy and theology occupy the same College — No ; at one period they did, but it "was found inconvenient to have the students of philosophy and theology in the same College, and hence a College w^as established for the philosophical students at about a league distance from the College of St. Sulpice. 52. Is it not the practice also at All-IIallows to separate the philosophical students from the theological students? — Yes. 53. Is any other supervision practised among the theological students ? — The rooms of the professors are in different parts of the house amongst the students, which is a most useful arrangement. But they have no monitors. 54. What is the average age at which the students enter St. Sulpice for the stud}" of philosophy ? — I should think eighteen. 55. IVTiat is, generally speaking, the state of tlieir preliminary education ? — They are all previously educated in the petits seminaires, or the collegiate institutions of France, and I have already described the system of education adopted in those petits seminaires and collegiate institutions. 56. \Vhat do you understand to be the constitution of the petits seminaires ? — The petits seminaires are grammar schools intended to pi’epare the clerical student to enter upon his philo.sophicaI and theological studies. Under the government of Charles the Tenth and Louis Philippe the State allowed 20,000 students to be exempted from Uni- versity Law and from the Law of Conscription, and those 20,000 students Avere distributed amongst the different dioceses of France in proportion to their wants and population. The government of Charles tlie Tenth established 8,000 half burses for students in those seminaries. 57. How much Avas each half burse ? — I think only £6 a year ; those burses A\mre sup- pressed after the revolution of is30. The proportion of the students in those petits semi- naires to the clergy is as one to two — the French clergy numbering about 40,000. 58. In other Avords, assuming the French clergy to be 40,000, there arc about 20,000 students in the petits seminaires? — Yes. I mention this fact to show the necessity that there is of providing a large system of preparatory education, for, according to that pro- portion Ave should require 1,200 students in the course of preparatory training for our theo- logical seminaries. 59. Do you understand that all the youths so trained in the petits seminaires do, in effect, enter orders ? — No. The necessity for such a large number as I mentioned arises from the fact, that numbers fall off in the course of their studies. r 2 l~th Oetuber, lb5.1. "ioT Very llev. David Moriarty, d.d. Social training more necessary in Ireland than in France. No peculiai’ity of character in Irish student to render Sulpitian system of training inapplicable. Separ.ation of stu- dents of philosoph}’^ and theology in St. Sulpice. Average age of entrance into St. Sulpice. Petits seminaires. Number of students in them. 124 .MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. 11 th October, 1803. 10 . Very IJev. IJaviJ -Moriurty, d.d. Directions of the Council of Trent on the subject of prepa- ratory cilucation. Preparatory semina- ries in Ireland. Tlie ordinance of the Council contein- ))lates .an endowed Church. St. Sulpice the dio- cesan seminary of Paris. Irisli College in Paris. 00. Wliich cause would operate equally in Ireland under a similar system ?— Yes. 61. At what age do they go into those petits seminaircs ? — About twelve may be the time of enti’ance, and about eigliteen tlie time of departure. 02. By tliat time arc they siqtposed to have concluded their course of philosophy ? They have concluded their rhetoric. Oil. d'lien they arc prepared to pass into the study of philosophy ? Yes. 04. Is it the fiict that the petits seminaircs are founded upon the directions of the Council of Trent ? — Yes. 65. Will you state what those are?— The directions of the Council of Trent on this sub- ject are given in the 18th chapter of tlie 23rd .Session, which runs thus: — “And whereas the age of youtli, unless it he rightly trained, is prone to follow after the pleasures of the world ; and unless it he formed from its tender years into piety and religion, before habits of vice have taken ])ossession of tlie whole man, it will never perfectly, and without the greatest reliance in the special help of Almighty God, persevere in ecclesiastical discipline. The Holy Synod ordains that all cathedral, metropolitan, and other churches greater than these, shall he bound, each according to its means and extent of the dioceses, to maintain, to educate religiously, and to train in the ecclesiastical discipline, a certain number of the youths of their city and dioceses, or if that number cannot he met with through that pro- vince, in a college to he chosen by the bishop for this purpose near the said churches, or in some other suitable place. Into this college shall be received such as are at. least twelve years old, born in lawful wedlock, and who know how to read and write competentlv, and whose character and inclination aftbrd a hope that they will always serve in the ecclesias- tical ministry ; and that the youths may be more advantageously trained in the aforesaid ecclesiastical discipline, they shall always wear the tonsure and the clerical dress ; they shall learn grammar, singing, ecclesiastical computation, and the other liberal arts ; they shall be instructed in Sacred Scripture, ecclesiastical works, the Homilies of the Saints, the manner of administering the sacraments, and especially those things which shall seeiu adapted to enable them to hear confessions and the forms of rights and ceremonies.” That decree applies to the theological as well as to the preparatory seminaries. 66. If such preparatory seminaries do not exist in Ireland, it is owing to a want of means for the purpose. It Avould be the desire of the Homan Catholic Church to establish such preparatory seminaries, would it not ? — Several of our bishops endeavour to establish such preparatory seminaries, hut the poverty of the country at present renders them, to a great extent, useless ; some have been altogether closed up, and a few only are in a flourishing condition. JMy opinion is, that, considering the poverty of clergy and people, our educa- tional wants can he supplied only by day schools properly conducted, unless there is some government aid for the purpose of preparatory education. 67. By day schools do you mean day schools in which students would he educated up to the period when they would enter into Maynooth ? — Yes. The means prescribed by the Council of Trent, in the subsequent part of the decree, for the sujiport of the ecclesi- astical seminaries are, to a great extent, impracticable in this country. 68. Does it appear to you that that decree or ordinance of the Council of Trent contem- plates the existence of a Church endowed by Homan Catholics, or endowed by the State ? — It contemplated the existence of a Church endowed by the State, or otherwise adequately endowed, and in some portions of it it contemplates a harmony of civil and canon law, which does not exist with us. 69. The education of youth at idaynooth, under the system that has prevailed since 1795, by which the students are educated for the priesthood for all Ireland, is not quite in accordance with that decree of the Council of Trent, which contemplates diocesan seminaries for that puiqiose? — Maynooth may be looked upon as a combination of diocesan seminaries. 70. Then the decree contemplates local seminaries, and tlie principle of the decree is applied in the establishment of Maynooth, in the manner in which alone, at present, it can he applied in this country ? — Just so. The Council of Trent contemplates, also, the case in which a union of diocesan seminaries may be made, in consequence of the j)Overty of the dioceses. 71. Do the students enter St. Sulpice from any particular dioceses? — The seminary of St. Sulpice is the diocesan seminary of the diocese of Haris, but it is frequented by students from all ])arts of France, who wish to receive a more perfect and a more extensive education. 72. Who has the right of nominating the students ? — The Archbishop of Paris, as far as I can judge, is the only person having any right to nominate the students in St. Sulpice, and he can only nominate for his own diocese. All the other students are pensioners or burse holders. The student is either directed by his bishop to go there for his education, or he asks his bishop’s leave to ente’*. 73. lie would not be accepted without a letter or some other recommendation from his bishop ? — That is the general rule of evei-y seminaiy, and I suppose it is so at St. Sulpice. 74. You have stated that you were Vice-President of the Irish College in I’aris, by whom were the rules of that College framed, and what class-books w'ere used ? — The rules in use when I was there w^ere framed by the late Most Hev. Dr. IMurray and the Hight Hev. Dr. Doyle : the books used when I was there were Bailly’s Theology, dogmatical and moral. 75. Was that the only class for the whole course ? — ^Yes, in theology. The Philosojihia Lugdunensis was used in the I’hilosophy class. ]\IIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 125 75. The work 1)V 3f. Carrk'ro was not used at St. Sul])ico, was it? — It was not used as a cdass-l)ook in tlic College ; he was then one of the professors ; he is now Fresident or Superior (Jcneral. 77. No treatise in Latin by Carricrc was adopted in the College? — None at the time that 1 knew St. Sulpice. 7S. Is it usually the i)racticc for the great Colleges of this nature to have treatises, hand-hooks, or class-books, written by tlieir own professors ? — I cannot say that that is a general practice ; many of the Colleges have had hooks written l>y their own professors, hut I think those hooks have generally shared the fate of almost all class-books, they are given u]) after a certain time. It seems to he the general rule that the opinions of the te.\t-hooks are those most controverted by the ])rofessors. 79. The textd)ooks arc not considered, are they, as an indication of the class of opinions inculcated? — I think not. I would say that wo attach very little importance in our seminaries to the o])inions of our class-books; we take them as indicating the order of the matters to he taught in class. 80. Arc you aware whether the treatise of Scavini on Mo* d Theology is in use in the College of which you have been s])eaking? — I think not. 8 1 . AVhat was the nninhcr of the students who were educated in the Irish College in Paris? — From eighty to one hundred. 82. Whence are the funds derived for the maintenance of that College? — Chiefly from burses which were founded in France by the refugee Irish in the times of persecution, and by French benefactors of the College. 83. The fund for the endowment of the College is under the control, principally, of the French government, is it not? — Yes. 81. llow many priests are ordained in that College, do yon suppose, annually ?— The average number was twelve when I was connected with the College. 8.5. What was their destination, princi])ally ? — The different dioceses of Ireland. 86. But there is no law to prevent tliem going subsequently to the Colonics, or any other place where their services may be required ? — No, save their canonical obedience to their bishop. 87. What are the salaries at the Iiish College ? — When I was connected with the Irish College the salaries and other perquisites might have amounted to about from £50 to £60 a year for each professor, with commons and rooms ; clothes they have to purchase them- selves. 88. You have stated that it was under the control of the French government ; to what extent do the Irish bishops exercise control over it ? — The only control then acknow- ledged by the French government was that of presenting the person who was to occupy the office of president. He received his appointment from the French government. The Irish bishops nominated the students in accordance with the terms of the different foundations. 89. IIow are the professors appointed ? — They were then appointed by the president, and dismissible at his pleasure ; but all that system has been recently changed, and 1 can- not answer for the present state of things. 90. What class did you enter in the College of Maynooth, and how many years did you spend in that College ? — I entered the lUietoric Class, and I spent nearly eight years in the College. 91. Do you consider the present division of students into a senior and junior house a judicious division? — I think the present division of senior and junior students exceedingly advisable, and I should wish to see a further division if practicable. 92. Are you also of opinion that the division of the instruction into annual courses is the best division that can be made? — Yes. 93. Does your approval of the system extend to the division of the junior house into courses which are limited to the space of a single year ; as, for instance, to classes of logic and to classes of natural philosophy ? — I would prefer to see the class of logic extending over two years, and tlie class of natural philosophy going concurrently over those two years with the class of logic. 94. Do you think that the division of the junior house into two schools of instruction, each extending over a period of two years, the junior school being entitled “ Tlie School of Philology,” and the senior “The School of Philosophy,” Avould be advisable, it being understood that the study of mathematics should be pursued concurrently with the study of philology, and the study of pliysics with the study of philosophy ? — I think it would be advisable that the study of mathematics should run concurrently with the study of jdii- lology, as the study of physics with moral philosophy. 95. Arc you of opinion that the present division of the senior house is an advantageous division, with respect to courses of a single year each ; for example, that the present arrangement under which the junior class of theology study physics is the best, or that the study of physics ought rather to bo thrown back into the course of moral philosophy ? — I shoidd prefer having the course of physics thrown back into the course of moral philosophy. 96. Are you of opinion that a curriculum of four years is not too large for the study of theology? — Decidedly not. 97. You think it is an advantage in the study of theology to have four years applied to it? — Yes. \'Hh Octoher, IS-Oa. loT "S'ery Kev. David Monarty, d.i>. ‘Wlietlier customary for Colleges to liavo class-books prciiarcd by tlicir own jiro- fessors. Little importance attached to the opi- nions of tlie text- books. Irisli College in I’aris — Lunds. Salaries. Control of the L rench government over the College. Maynooth. Combination of logic and philosophy classes advisable. Theology course not too extensive. 126 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. 17(/i October, 1S')3. Very Tlev. David Moriarty, d.d. Instruction in i\Iay- nooth as to the duties of tlie confessional. Such subjects not dangerous when treated and studied X)rofessioually. Actual vice, as found by experience, sur- passes all the details of casuistry. 98. Ave the students in the course of tlieology prepared for the confessional?- — Yes. 99. There are some chapters — as, for instance, the chapters de debito conjugaU, and some others of a similar nature ; at tvhat period of the course, and under what restrictions arc those chapters taught ? — lien I was a student in Maynooth, those chapters formed part of the second year’s study of divinity ; hut I recollect that we Avere cautioned hy our professor to pass them over, and not read them until we should be immediately about to enter on tlie duties of the confessional. 100. Are the Commissioners to understand that they were never made the subject of lecture or examination ? — They were never made the suliject of examination. In the lec- ture the professor passed them over, making a few general observations, one of Avhich was, that sins of the character referred to in tliese chapters were so deordinato, tliat their malice Avas sufficiently obvious. I speak, however, only of the class in which I read, and wliicli.was then taught by Dr. O’Hanloii, the present Prefect of the Dunboyne Establish- ment. The practice of the seminaries of France is to have all this matter in a separate appendix, AA'hich is I’cad at the close of the theological course, AA’hen the students arc 2>rc- jiaring for ordination. 101. Was any caution giA-en to the students to avoid the unnecessary introduction of those subjects into the confessional ? — That caution is given hy almost every theologian who treats the subject. They always admonish the confessor that he should take care never to teach by his interrogatories vice Avhich may not be known hy the penitent, and that he should be as brief as 2)ossible in his observations on such sins when confessed. They almost invariably add, that it is better the confession should be AA'anting in complete- ness than that the j^enitent should be exposed to scandal by learning vice Avith Avhicli he was not before acquainted, or should have the imagination soiled by needlessly dAvelling on such subjects. 102. What is the general instruction given by the Catholic theologians as to the intro- duction of such interrogatories at all ? — The instruction generally given by Catholic theo- logians is, to ask no question, unless the confessor has reason to sus 2 )ect that such sins have been committed. He is then directed to commence his interrogatories by asking whether the jienitent has committed sins of thought ; and if he finds that such sins have not been committed, he is directed to juirsue his interrogatories no further. If he finds that the first stages of sin have been j^assed, he is directed cautiously to j^ursue his questions, according to the necessity Avhich he finds to exist. 1 03. You stated, did you not, that this course of study AA’as ]Dost 2 )oned to the last moment ? — I said that such Avas the general practice in the French colleges. lO-l. Is it so in the Irish colleges ? — In Maynooth College it Avas 2 >assed OA’er, at least in my class, and left to the private study of each student. 1 05. It AA^as not specifically 2 >ostponed to a certain 2 >eriod ? — We were told that we should not read that matter until Ave shoiild be about to enter on the practice of the confessional. 106. You Avould tliink it on the Avhole })erhaps tlie better j)lan, that it should l)o the subject of a separate volume, rather than that it should be reserved specifically for the last period of study ?— I think it better that it should form the subject of a sej)arate volume, and also be deferred to the last j)eriod of study, inasmuch as some students may never take orders, and may not therefore ever stand in need of the knowledge which is acquired by this study. 107. You Avould AA’illingly postpone the consideration of such a subject, until the last period of study, both on account of the imj)ortance of Avithholding it as a branch of study, until it became necessary that the future confessor should study it, and also because as the individual would be more advanced in age, there would be less danger of the imagination being tainted ? — As to the last reason, my opinion is, that the reading of .such subjects as a matter of professional study, is scarcely ever attended Avith any danger to the student. It is precisely what occurs in the study and practice of the laAA', and of surgery, and I am sure that the laAA^yer or the physician, Avhen obliged to inquire into and treat of the most inde- licate matters, if he does so as a jArofessional business, and not from a morbid curiosity, will never feel his heart thereby depraved. He discharges one of the duties of his state, and the Almighty is ahvays prepared to give us grace to do Avithout detriment to conscience AvhateA-er duty demands from us. Noav to study these matters is most certainly a duty of our state of life, for su|)posing the Divine precept of confession, and su])2)Osing that it requires a declaration of sins both as to their number and sjjecies, it becomes the confessor’s busi- ness as a judge and as a 2 >hysician of souls, in the tribunal of jmnance, to knoAV hoAV to distinguish “ leprosy from lej)rosy,” and for this jjurpose to know what circumstances involve a different sjiecies of natural or unnatural lust. As sins of this character form so large a j^art of the Avickedness of the Avorld, it becomes particularly necessary that the confessor should have a clear and distinct knowledge of the variety of Avays in Avhich per- sons may be guilty of such enormities, that he may' knoAV hoAV to susjject and to detect them. Such knOAvledge is the more required, as in many' cases, sins of this kind invob'C grievous violations of justice, and the consequent obligation of restitution, as in cases of adultery and bastardy'. Many' cases also occur in which there is question of the validity or iiiA'alidity of marriages, and Avhich require for their safe decision a most accurate knoAA’ledge of Avhat is most offensive in the matters you refer to. Besides, every priest having the cure of souls, is the ordinary judge in foro conscientia: oi matrimonial causes, and he should therefore be acquainted Avith all matters that may guide him to a correct decision. I may add, that ecclesiastics exercising the sacred ministry, in those jdaces where the ailNUTKS OF EVIDENCE. 127 people are not nmlerthc control of religion, find that all the casiiistrv detailed by Sanchez, or hy those authors who have gone farthest into such details, give them only the rudiments of the excess of vice they find j)ractised. A deep insight into such matters, on the j)art of the confessor, is also most useful to ])rcvcnt needless descriptions on the part of the peni- tent. Ignorant persons not knowing what species ol' sin they have committed, and some- times imagining sin Avhere none exists, arc apt to enter into unnecessaiy details, unless the confessor, by a cpiick and clear perception of the whole matter, is able to reduce the sin to its species and to prescind from alt needless circumstances. 108. Was it taught, that one object of introducing the details into the books, was to prevent their introduction at any length into the confession? — I do not precisely recollect where I learned it, but I look upon it as an advantage to be derived from a careful study of the matter. 1 09. Was that really the purpose of the caution ? — I merely mention it as one of the advantages likely to residt. 110. When you say that a confessor acts in the capacity of a judge, do you mean as judge between two parties, or as judge between the penitent and his conscience ? — He acts as a judge in the first i)lace, inasmuch as he has to decide upon tlie absolution of the penitent or the refusal of absolution. In this decision he is guided by ascertaining whe- ther the penitent has the requisite dispositions of repentance, namely, sincere sorrow for sins committed, and a determined resolution not to sin again. He must be also satisfied that the penitent is not voluntarily remaining in those occasions which have heretofore led him into sin, and that he has made or is prepared to make restitution to all parties whom he may have injured in person, propert}', character, or honour. He also acts as a judge in imposing a proper measure of penance, suited to the measure of guilt. ’ As a physician of souls, he has to prescribe to the penitent, remedial measures to correct the faults and vices to which he has been subject. 111. That is what you mean by acting as a judge in determining upon granting absolu- tion, or the imposing of penance as a penalty for sin?— Yes. The confessor’s judgment is to bo also exercised as to whether there is sin or no sin, and as far as he can determine whether sin is venial or mortal. The confessional is a tribunal in which the priest acts as judge, and where the penitent is both the accused and the witness. 112. But as a judge upon no other party ? — No. 113. When the subjects of the obligations of marriage are brought under the considera- tion of the student with reference to the confessional, is it inculcated upon him that it is his duty to study and master those subjects in the spirit of a judge, and not as a mere student of the extent and variety of human infirmities? — I should say, if I understand the question rightly, that he should study them as a judge and physician of souls, not as a student of human infirmity, which would seem to imply an indulgence of mere idle curiosity. Such studies can only be justified by practical utility. 114. In short, he is taught to study them as part of his duty, as discreetly as possible, however remote? — Yes. 1 15. T\’^ere there any private instructions given to you on these heads ? — No. 116. By the deans, for instance ? — No. 117. The age at which such books would be read abroad would be about twenty-three ? — Yes, or over. 118. When were you educated at Maynooth ? — From 1831 to 1839. 119. Did you read Dens’ Theology when a student at Maynooth ? — No. I 120. Nor any part of it ? — I may have looked into the book in the library, though I do not precisely recollect having done so, but I never studied the work while at Maynooth. I have occasionally read portions of it since I left Maynooth, and I consider it a work of very I great merit. 121. AYas the book at all emplo 3 ’ed or referred to in the lecture-room by the professor? — It was not employed. It may have been quoted amongst numberless other authorities referred to by the professor, but it was never one of the principal books of reference. 122. You never saw the book itself in the lecture-room ? — Never, that I recollect. T23. To the best of your knowledge, is the stud}' of this dejiartment of moral theology considered so necessary, as to be introduced into all ecclesiastical Boman Catholic semi- I naries in all countries ? — It is absolutel}" necessary wherever the practice of confession prevails, that is, throughout the whole Catholic Church, and it must enter into the theo- logical studies of every clergyman who has to hear confessions; but it may be left to private study, as there is nothing in it difficult of comprehension. A confessor who had not studied such matters would incur much risk in the practice of the confessional, and his guidance would be likely to be attended with very dangerous results to his penitents, for the consciences of some are often terrified by circumstances which in reality' involve no additional specific guilt, or no moral guilt at all ; others, unfortunately, rest secure in the midst of sin and danger. Accurate knowledge and wise discretion are required in the confessor to guard against all extremes. 124. Arc all the clas.s-books on these subjects conceived much in the same spirit, and do they' enter much into the same kind of detail ? — There are differences of opinion in this as in CA'ery other subject which theologians treat, but perhaps more harmony of opinion than in many other free subjects of discussion. The extent of detail varies as the extent of the whole work. Some authors, too, on principle, are more and some are less detailed in their casuistry on this subject, but taking the good standard authors that I am acquainted with, I do not see any considerable difference between them. Mth Octoher, 1808. 10 . Very Rev. David Jloriarty, d.d. Duties of the confes- sional. Judicial function of the confessor. Dens’ Theology. Study of the depart- ment of moral theo- logy referred to, essential for the performance of the duties of the Con- fessional. 128 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. 17th October, 1853. 10 . Very Kev. David jMoriarty, i>,d. Temporal power of the i’ope. Directing authority of the Dope in tem- poral matters. The Pope can in no circumstances release from allegiance. 120. What was the Joctriiic taught at Maynooth wlien you were there as a student, respecting the distinction between the spiritual power of the Pope and the temporal power of the Sovereign ? — We were taught upon that matter what we swore in the oath of allegiance, that the Pope has no temporal ])Ower, direct or indirect, in these realms. ) 2(5. Did that exclusion of direct or indirect temporal power exclude tlie exercise of a directive authority Avhich must he obeyed ?* — I do not recollect tliat matter hehig ever entered into at Maynooth, hut the meaning I attacli to the ])roposition that the Pope has no direct or indirect temporal power is, that he has no power or riglit to coerce, by tempo- ral means, any one outside his own dominions; he has no power of enforcing his injunctions except by spiritual sanction. 127. Can he enforce a temporal matter by S])iritual sanction in foreign countries? — He cannot enforce a temporal matter as such, hut he can enforce by spiritual sanction the obligations of conscience which regard or affect temporal matters. Any one liaving to act as the guide of the conscience of another, may liave liis directions occasionally conver- sant about tem})oral juatters, as for instance, if a pei’son informs me as a confessor that he has defrauded his neighbour, I Avill direct him to restore the property of wliich he is unlawfully possessed, or to re])air tlie injury done ; in this case, althougli tlie power 1 exercise concerns a temporal matter, yet it is a purely spiritual power, both in its end and in its means. I consider that power, in general, is a subjective, not an objective idea, that it is specified or distinguislied by the means or instruments with whicli it enforces its injunctions, not by the object about which these injunctions are given. When, as a con- fessor, 1 direct the restitution of stolen jiroperty, or the rescinding of an unlawful contract the object is a temporal matter, but the power is purely spiritual, because I have no temporal means of enforcing my injunction. 128. Would the I’ope liave a directing autliority with regard to the exercise of temporal riglits or temporal privileges ? — So far as tliey may become questions of morality or cases of conscience, the direction concerning them apjiertains to the Church, whicli is the authorized exponent of the law of God upon earth, and, therefore, to the Pope, who is the sujireme pastor and teacher of the (diurcli. There may be particular cases where the moral question entirely turns on a question of fact, of wliich the ecclesiastical authority is no more competent to form an opinion than any other party in the state, and where it can merely direct us to do what shall seem to us best. To take an exani]ile from ordinary occurrences. It is. for instance, a ]irinciple of morality that the poor ought to be fed ; anil a clergyman who preaches this doctrine jireaches the Gospel ; but that the poor should be fed by the repeal of the corn laws, or the establishment of tenant right, these are ques- tions upon which there is certainly nothing in Scripture or tradition, nor are they clearly resolvable by any general principle of morality. A clergyman who deals with such subjects speaks iq)on matters upon Avhich every man has as good a right to think and speak as he has, and his teachings concerning them should be considered as the teachings of a citizen not of a clergyman. On the other hand cases may arise which are so clearly contained under a revealed truth, or under a general principle of morality, that it would be perfectly com- petent for the ecclesiastical authority to pronounce what our duty is in those cases. Thus, I can imagine a socialist party getting u]) in this country, and a ])erson coming forward to canvass the votes of certain constituents with an avowed intention of upsetting the throne and the constitution, and intruding socialist princi])les into our government. 1 would say that that was a particular case clearly coming under a geiieral rule, and that the ecclesi- astical authority could and ought to say that it was sinful to give aid and support to such a party. In like manner when there is (picstion of the allegiance or obedience of subjects the question of duty may depend upon a state of facts or of covenants of wliich the ecclesias- tical authority or the Tope mav know nothing, or the facts may be admitted or proved, and the whole question may turn upon the interpretation or application of the divine or natural law of which the ecclesiastical authority or the Pope is the most competent judge. 129. Are there no circumstances under which the Pope could release a citizen from his oath of allegiance ? — idost emphatically I say, none. Put as our greatest constitutional * As the clause in the oatli of allegiance concerning the tenipor.al power of tlie Pope is intended to exclude certain theological oi)inions, the expressions dir(cf and indirect temix.rul power must be understood in the sense in which they are used by Catholic theologians, and the same is their obvious and natural sense. By direct teni])oral power is meant that species of jiower which civil authorities possess, namely, that of governing and legislating with a view to the temporal well-being of the state, and enforcing their injunctions by bodily coercion. It is a power temporal in its end and in its sanction. Indirect temporal j ower would mean a right in the .spiritual authority to govern and legislate in temporal matters, and enforce its injunctions by bodily coercion, when the same might be necessary for the s]:iritual well-being of those of whom it has charge. It is a jiower spiritual in its end, temporal in its sanction, and is called indirect, temporal power, because, inasmuch as it is temporal, it is not directly vested in the spiritual ruler, but indirectly vests in him, when temporal and spiritual interests conflict, on .account of the natural subordination of the one to the other. In our oath of allegiance we swear that the Pope has no temporal power whutxoerer, direct or indirect, outside his own dominions. But wo hold tliat the Pope, as Christ's vicar on earth, and chief pastor of the Church, can teach their duties both to kings and subjects, and enforce the same by sjiiritual censures. Now it is a duty of the subject not to obey when the laws of the Sovereign are opposed to the laws of God ; and hence, to command disobedience to the civil authority has some- times been a duty of the Pope, and was, in efl'cet, one of the first recorded acts of papal jurisdiction. — V. Acts, iv. 19. This power is not temporal in any sense of the word. It is spiritual in its object, which is moral duty ; in its sanction, which is ecclesiastical censure ; in its end, which is life eternal. This doctrine is not ultramontane. Every Gallican theologian has held, and must hold it. Pegnier, a distin- guished exponent of Gallican principles, thus writes — Tract de Ecclesia, p. 1, s. v — “ Potest (luidom Christianam de legitimo temporalium usu doctrinam jiroponere, e.amque spiritualibus sancire poenis ; turn etiam pojiulis prooci- pere ne principum constitutiouibus parerent, quae omnipotentis, cujus sunt ministri, legibns repugnarent, at non potest temporales poenas infligere,” *c. If some Gallican theologians hold that the Pope can never declare subjects released from their allegiance, it is because they hold that the right of the monarch is uidefeasible, and that rebeUion is never lawful, under any circumstances. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 129 lawrors, and, as I think, our best theologians, hold that there arc eases wlien the allegiance uth Ociobn-, ls5:j. of the subject ceases, and when the goveriiinent of a country may he justly overthrown, } 10. consider that the Tope is the fittest authority to decide in many cases whether such very itev. David circumstances have arisen ; in many cases he could not decide, and 1 firmly believe that in Moriarty, u.i>. such cases he wouhl not undertake to do so. In no case can he cause the allegiance of a to tlio subject to cease; his power in such a matter being simjily declaratory, not enabling. Popoinca^esbctwccn 130. Would his so declaring it heconie obligatory on the conscience of the jiarty to whom soveroi-n and it was addressed, or would it operate merely as a matter of advice ?— Since allegiance is a debt paid by the subject to the Sovereign, I do not sec what sin there could be in paying that allegiance, if the subject desired to do so, even though it Avere not due. A release is a withdrawal of a duty or obligation, not the imposing of a iiCAV one; it is in the nature of a privilege quo nemo uti tenetur. 131. Hut he Avould have rcnioA’cd the obligation from the coUBcieiiQC ? He would declare it removed by circumstances. 132. But it Avould have the effect of removing the obligation from the Conscience, would it not ? — No ; he merely decides and declares that it is removed, and thus he may enlighten a conscience which Avas in error, Avhich erroneously judged itself under an obligation that had ceased to exist. 1 consider that I have a right to consult the Tope or any other ecclesiastical authority upon a subject upon Avhich mob orators and ncAvspapcr editors are usually consulted in this country. 133. With Avhom does the responsiblity rest? Is the responsibility of disobeying removed from the party by virtue of the opinion expressed by the superior authority? — Were Ave to consult the Holy See upon our allegiance or obedience to our tem])oral Sovereign, and that an ansAver Avere given us, it ought to satisfy the consciences of Catholics, considering the maturity Avith Avliich the Holy See proceeds, and considering also that avc knoAv it to bo an authority divinely ajApointed and divinely assisted for our guidance in the Avay of salvation, and, consetpiently, in the path of duty. But as the Pope’s infalli- bility docs not extend to particular cases, and as the decision might rest on allegations, the truth of Avhich some might doubt, I can conceive that, in certain circumstances, some might not be entirely satisfied, even though retaining all due reverence for the Holy See. 134. Then it leaves it ultimately to their private opinion whether they are obliged by that release or not ?* — I said before that a release does not impose an obligation ; but, con- sidering our general duty of obedience and reverence for the Holy See, and considering the caution Avith Avhich that tribunal proceeds, Ave should rest satisfied Avith its deci.sions. 135. Then it Avould have the effect of releasing the conscience of a subject from an obligation Avhich the oath of allegiance had imposed upon him before, Avould it not ? — It cannot efiect a release ; it can simply inform the conscience that a release is already effected. 136. Then it has no releasing poAA^er ? — Certainly, it has no releasing poAver. I hold the doctrine of Burke and I’aley, Avhich I believe to bo also tlie doctrine of Suarez and Bellarmin, that a possible combination of circumstances may release from allegiance, and render rebellion laAvful, it becomes then a most serious question of conscience to decide when these circumstances have arisen. Paley holds that every man must decide this question for himselff — that it must be left to the pi-ivate judgment of each individual. Noav, Avhile Ave hold that, in certain manifest cases, individuals may decide for themselves, we say that, in cases of doubt, it is safer for society at large, and for the individual conscience, to refer the question to the most competent authority on earth, that autho- rity Avliich Ave believe to bo the authorized expositor of the Word of God. 137. Not only the authorized expositor of the Word of God, but the most compe- tent authority as to its application to each particular instance ? — Yes, in those cases Avhich the Pope Avould undertake to decide, for Ave knoAV him to be the supreme pastor of the faith- ful and the proper guide of our conscience, and also the least prejudiced party to Avhom we could refer. 138. Does not that leave the question of the allegiance of all the subjects of the Avorld * Notes subsequently added hy witness. — Tlie difficulty here urged, and not fully ansu-cred is, if tlie Pope is not infallible in these matters, why do Catholics feel bound to adhere to his decisions? It is true the Pope is not infallible in his jude-inent on particular cases — “Potest tamen Pontifex,” writes an ultramontane theologian (V/iggers, Tract, de Pontif. ss. 198), “ non tantum ut priv.ata persona sed etiam ut publica, non tantum si ne concilio sed etiam cum concilio errare in judicio super particularibus quEestionibus et controversiis facti quaruin deterrainatio tantum pendet ex hominum depositionibus et testimoniis, ad gener.alitatcm autem morum non per- tinet.” But the Pope's pastor.al office, and our duty of obedience extend beyond those matters in which he is infallible. AVe are bound to obey the Queen, we are bound to obey our p.arents, though neither the Queen nor our p.arents are infallible ; and though we should not obey them if their conimands are manifestly avrong, our obligation is not, on that account, ultimately left to private opinion ; for it is our duty to submit our opinion, unless where there is evident error in the command, in duhio pnesurnptio stat pro superiore. t The following are the words of I’aley : — “The justice of every particular case of resistance is reduced to a comput.ation of the quantity of the danger and grievance, on the one side, and of the probability and expense of redressing it, on the other. But who shall judge this? AA'e answer, ‘Everyman for himself.’ In conteiition.s between the sovereign .and the subject, the parties acknowledge no common .arbitrator; and it would be absurd to refer the decision to those whose conduct has provoked the question, and whose own interest, authority, and fate .are immediately concerned in it. The danger of error and abuse is no objection to the rule of expediency', because every other rule is liable to the s.ame, or greater ; and every rule that c.an be pn pounded upon the sub- I ject (like .all rules, indeed, which appe.al to or bind the conscience) must, in the application, depend upon pri- vate judgment. It m.ay be observed, however, that it ought equally to be accounted the exercise of a man’s own private judgment whether he bo determined by reasonings and conclusions of his own, or submit to be directed by the advice of others, provided he be free to choose his guide.” Now, we are perfectly free to choose the Pope as our guide. The faith by which we believe him to be Christ’s vicar on earth is free ; our consultation of him in a given doubt is free ; our obedience to his decision is free : in all those we are subject to no compulsion or j coercion ; we make what we deem the best use of our priv.ate judgment in submitting to be directed b}- his advice to whom Christ said, “ Peed my lambs, feed my sheep.” 130 JIAYXOOTII COMMISSION. I7f7i October, 1853. to their several sovereigns entirely dependent on the opinions that maybe pronounced Yq“ by the Pope fi'om time to time ? — I think it -vvoidd be well for the sovereigns and subjects Very Rev'. David world that the matter were left to the Pope ; but it seems to me that this opinion Moriarty, d.d. leaves allegiance no more dependent on the Pope than Protestant theology leaves it depen- dent on individual conscience. Reference to the 139. For, although not inhillible, ho would have a directing power which ought to be consciences of others ?— And so he has ; but if the Pope were to give clearly subject? erroneous decisions on such matters, they ought not to be obeyed ; it is not, however, respectful to the Holy See to make such a supposition ; and, as I observed before, the question may depend for its solution on local circumstances, of which the parties concerned must judge, the Pope merely statiug the general rule of conscience or morality. 140. Then in all matters in which he has a directing power — not authority to decide ex cathedra, as upon articles of faith, private judgment is allowed to decide whether the Pope has conclusive authority or not? — I should allow an exercise of private judgment if the Pope were to give clearly erroneous decisions ; hut Ave know that such cases Avill sel- dom or never occur. It is a mistake to suppose that our obedience to the Pope is limited to those matters in which he is infallible. 141. You have assumed, in one of your answers, that there are cases in which it is lawful, according to the constitution of England, for a subject to rebel. There are two meanings that might be applied to the word “ lawful ” — namely, laAvful Avith a vioAV to morals, and lawful with regard to the constitution. Are you aAvare, Avith respect to the law of the land, that there is no instance in Avhich a subject can lawfully rebel ? — I know that it is a maxim of our law that the Queen can do no wu-ong. 142. According to the laAv of the land rebellion is AinlaAvful, no matter under what cii’cumstances ? — That must be the laAV ; for it is supposed that the poAver in possession executes the laAV, and it cannot, of course, recognise resistance to itself. 143. The question Avhether or not, according to the principles of the English constitu- tion, a case may arise in Avhich a subject (there being a A'iolation of the correlative duties betAveen the sovereign and the subjects) may rebel, is a question not of law but cither of constitutional propriety or general prudence, are not both these matters entirely of a tem- poral nature ? — They are temporal matters. 144. If they are purely temporal, are they not out of the jurisdiction of the Pope? — Though temporal, they are not purely temporal ; every deliberate act Avliich man performs is moral or immoral, and has, therefore, its spiritual relation. 145. Has the Pope any power to decide Avhen any particular state of facts has occurred in any country, that a case has arisen in which there is a constitutional right, prudently exercised, to proceed to rebellion, and in Avhich there is a constitutional right to incur the mischiefs of rebellion ? — AYhile that question is left by Protestant theologians to the priA'ate j udgment of each individual, a Catholic Avould rather refer the case to the supreme ecclesiastical autliority in the Church. But 1 do not mean to say that the case would be noAV generally referred to the ecclesiastical authority, nor is it likely that a decision Avould be given, save in affirmation of the duty of allegiance; for though the case, as a question of moral duty, may come Avithin the sphere of the spiritual authority, it might not be expe- dient or beneiicial to the interests of religion that the spiritual authority should interfere, and, by doing so, give offence to many. It Avould be othenvise if all were disposed to acquiesce in the decision of the Holy See. 146. According to those Auews of Palcy, and Burke, and Locke, it would be a question with individuals Avhether or not a state of things had arisen in wdiich they would have a right to seek by force a change in the relation betAveen soA'ercign and subject ; might not that be wholly unconnected Avith any moral duty on Avhich the ecclesiastical authority would haA'C any control, and merely regard vieAvs of temporal convenience or vieAVS of temporal necessity ? — It could never be Avholly unconnected Avith moral duty, for the moral duty of allegiance exists, and will exist, until Ave are satisfied that such a state of things has arisen that that duty ceases. Noav, to decide upon the existence or cessation of a moral duty, there is no more competent judge than the ecclesiastical authority, as A^ested in the supreme head, the Pope. 147. Stating the facts, and asking upon these facts an opinion ? — Yes. 148. The question regards not the prudence of the advice, not the probable correctness of it, but the power in a given state of facts to declare that the period has arrived for the cessation of allegiance ? — It is a j)ower Avhich every man possesses if his conscience is suf- ficiently enlightened. 149. Does the ecclesiastical authority possess any more poAver than that which the indiAudual Avho consults it himself possesses. In other Avords, by virtue of the ecclesiasti- cal authority is there any pow'er to declare that a case has arisen, and by so declaring to make it lawful to rebel ? — 1 hold, and firmly believe, that the Pope or the Church has no power in these matters, save that of declaring what is our moral duty, and enforcing the performance of it by spiritual sanction, and thus guiding and enlightening our conscience. 150. But his declaration has no judicial or mandatory jmwers ? — Ilis decision on a par- ticular case is not mandatory to the same extent as a decision in matters of faith, of gene- ral discipline, or of the general principles of morality ; and in the case supposed it is more permissive than mandatory. It is judicial, inasmuch as it is a doctrinal decision of the chief pastor of the Church, but not a judgment upon civil rights or privileges as between two parties. 151. Is it doctrinal? — The expression may not be accurate; but I take doctrine in the i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 131 extensive sense of moral or practical as well as of tlopnatic or speculative doctrine. The distinction 1 wish to express is that of a decision which declares as dillerent from a deci- sion M’hich enacts, or creates the right Avhich it declares. 152. You arc aware that history shows that the l*o])C released the English in the time of Queen Elizabeth from their oath of allegiance, and that the Itoman Catholics, to a great extent, refused to be released from their allegiance. Were they light or wrong in so act- ing ? — My opinion Avitli regard to examples of this hind, taken from European history, is, that the canon law having heen adopted as part of the civil law of Europe, and it having also largely entered into the whole social system to consider the different 1‘inropcan monarchs as holding tlieir kingdoms as fiefs from the Holy See, tliere was a public recog- nised right in the I’opc to exercise direct temporal jurisdiction within the difierent realms of Euro])o, as head of a great European confederacy. That state of things exists no longer, and there is now no recognition of direct or indirect temporal ])Owcr in the Pope, conse- quently his present power is simply that of giving a theological decision, or pastoral direc- tion, as the common father and teacher of the faithful. 153. To recur again to the same question. The Pope at that time did release tlic Poman Catholics ot England from their allegiance, and they refused to be released ; ought they to have obej'ed the Pope, and were they Avrong in not taking advantage of the release which he had given them?* — A release from obedience docs not imply an obligation to disobey. There might be prudential reasons for continuing to obey, even though not bound to do so. 154. At the same time, if a man wei’c disposed to transfer his allegiance, or to give it up, that decision of the Pope Avonld enable him to give it u]> with a safe conscience, Avoukl it not? — Yes; for a Catholic should feel his conscience at rest Avhen acting in accordance with a decision of the Pope. 155. In any question temporal as well as spiritual ? — In questions of a purely temporal nature, he has no power or authority outside his oAvn dominions, but in spiritual questions or questions of moral duty, Avhether they regard temporal matters or not, we consider the Pope our safest guide on earth. 156. If in such a case, a contract might be dissolved l)etween a sovereign and his sub- jects, might not any contract betvreen two nations, for instance, treaties, be put an end to by the same authority, or any contract between subjects?- — The Pope has no power to change the dictates of natural justice. He cannot release any one from the obligation of a valid contract with injury to a third party. The state may do so by virtue of its supreme jurisdiction over temporal matters. The civil authority may, for reasons of public policy, rescind, even with prejudice to a third party, a valid contract, but the Pope cannot. If, however, a person enters into a contract founded on immoral considerations, or void from any other reason, as from being entered into under duress or ignorance, the ecclesiastical authority will toll him that it is null and void, and that he is not Ijound by it. In the former case the contract is rescinded by a power having an altum dominium over the whole matter of the contract ; in the second case there is simply a decision of common sense. Now we hold that it is much better that in very weighty and doidjtful matters, that decision should emanate from what we deem the best informed and most impai'tial authority in the world, than that it shoidd proceed from the private judgment of each individual. 157. Every man Avhen he makes a private contract, knows that he makes it Avith the possibility of the state overruling that contract; is a man hereafter to understand, that when he makes a contract Avitli a Eoman Catholic, he makes it subject to the condition that the Pope may hereafter overrule it, or release the man from the obligation, or any member of the Church representing the Pope ? — Certainly he does not make it with any such condition. 158. Is it, then, right that a subsequent condition, not in the contemplation of the con- tracting parties, should be imposed, which should diminish the obligation ? — In every contract, that a man makes Avith his felloAv-man, there is implied the condition that the contract is a just and valid one. Now to decide tliis question, it is held in Protestant theo- logy, that there is no judge but the individual Avho will bind or release himself, and thus become judge j>ro?n’i‘a causa ; in Catholic theology priA'ate judgment may be exercised when the case is a clear one, or jundent lay persons may be consulted, but generally the most competent judge is the ecclesiastical authority, declaring Avhat is right, but giving no release from an existing obligation. There is, therefore, no ncAV condition introduced into the contract, but the existence of a condition common to all contracts is ascertained, and it is quite indifferent, as Paley says, Avhether Ave are guided by our OAvn reasoning, or by the advice of others. 159. Supposing there were a doubt as to the binding nature of certain treaties between two sovereigns, Avould the solution of the difficulty depend upon the interpretation of the Pope ? — Any one of the doubting parties may consult the Pope, and may rest satisfied with his decision, but the other party need not accept that decision, unless he also states his case, or unless the contending parties refer the matter to the Pope’s tribunal. *Tlie question is not directly answered, because it involves another wliich I should not undertake to decide, or to decide which in the negative might bo illegal, viz : — Whether parliament can, withont just cause, alter the law of succession, and transfer the thrown, pro ?mtu ct arbitcio, from the rightful heir to another party. The decision of Pius V., in the case of Queen Elizabeth, was certainly in accordance with the common law of Europe, which excluded from the throne bastards and heretics. Tlie spirit of our law is still the same, excluding from the rot al succession Papists and those who, lilce Queen Elizabeth, are not born in lawful wedlock. If the law of a Catholic pountry excluded Protestants, I presume the Pope should be the fittest judge of the orthodoxy of the claimant or possessor of the crown, and that in tliis one case, at least, his declaratory poAver must be admitted. S 2 17th October, 185:1. 10 .' Very llev. David Moriarty, u.n. llclcaso by Pope Thus V. of .subjects of tjneen Elizabeth from their allegiance, referable to the pub- lic law of mediaeval Europe. Authority of the Pope in matters of contract. 132 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. \Wi October, 1853. 10 . Very Rev. David 2iIoriarty, b.d. Declaratory power the Poiie in cases between sovereign and subject. 13t/t October, 1853. IT Rev . Matthew Kelly. Resolution of 182!), as to examination in English Grammar. rrrfRciency of the students at entrance ICO. Do YOU mean with the consent of both parties ? Yes. ICl. Is tliere not an encyclical letter of the Pope, declaring that in no case is it lawful for subjects to rebel? x\n encyclical letter of Gregory XVI. ajrpears to say as much, and is quoted in support of this opinion by some theologians; but I think it may easily be reconciled with the doctrine which 1 have stated. X ^^it^\ority which you suppose to exist, of giving advice, which cither ought to be followed, or will be_ followed, exist, unless it be referred to for decision by a party doubting as to his obligation ? — It does. The Pope may instruct us in our duties whether ^ve consult him or not, but as the decision of a case of conscience dejiends on tlie allegations made, my conscience cannot he bound by a decision given on the allegations of another party, 163. Suppose the case of a conflict arising in this country between the subjects and tlie Clown upon a question warmly agitated, and w’ith respect to which some persons were inclined to overstep the limits of allegiance and plunge into rebellion. In such a case would tlie 1 ope, if not appealed to, have the power of declaring that such a state of things had arisen, tlmt the Irish people professing the Homan Catholic religion might rebel against the Dnghsh Sovereign ? Supposing tlie Pope in full jiossession of the circumstances, he has po^^Gl to dcclaie to us what the natural and divine law prescribe as our conscientious duty. _ 1 04. Has he authority to issue a declaration, without being appealed to, which wmuld ter- minate the obligation ot the oath of allegiance ? — The appeal adds nothing substantially to his right or powmr. It merely puts him in possession of facts. Ilis declaration cannot toi inmate the oath of allegiance it it lias not been already terminated by the force of circum- stances, lie can merely make known the fact to those who W’ere ignorant of it, or who doubted it. 165. AVould his declaration in any manner augment the right to rebel, or in any manner relax the duty of obedience ? — Certainly not. But he can teach men when they should obey, and. by a necessary consequence when they may rebel. 166. It would not make a case if circumstances had not made a case? — No; I am con- tinually giving that distinction. 167. Does the Pope possess an authority to release a subject of Her Majesty from the obligation of an oath in a matter of civil duty, further than the individual if competent to form a judgment on the subject, may release himself or hold himself released ? — He cer- tainly has no such power wherever the right of a third party is concerned, and conse- quently not in tlie case of allegiance, in w'hich the right of Her Majesty is concerned. 168. Supposing the Pope w'ere to issue a bull, declaring that circumstances had now arisen in this country wdiich released the people from the duty of allegiance, would that justify a sulq’ect in rebelling ? — My answer is, that a Catholic should deem the case impos- sible, tor he could not suppose the Pope capable of such an absurdity. 169. But suppose it did occur? — If you suppose the decree given in the present circum- stances of the country, it would be of no force, as being manifestly founded in error ; but I again protest against the supposition as disrespectful to the Holy See. 170. It w'ould remain the duty of a subject to abide by his allegiance? — Certainly. 171. Suppose the Pope w'ere to declare that in consequence of the establishment of the Queen’s Colleges, and in consequence of the passing of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, the time had arrived, and circumstances had arisen, under which the Irish Boman Catholics W'ere at liberty to rebel, wmuld that in any measure terminate the duty of, or in any manner aftect its obligation ? — 1 must again answer by protesting against the supposition. Such arc not the circumstances which to a Catholic mind would justify rebellion. If the case occurred I would simply conclude that the Pope had gone mad. [ The ^Vitness withdrew.~\ Thursday, IStii October, 1853. The Bev. Matthew Kelly, examined. 1. You are Professor of English and French at Maynooth, are you not ? — Yes. 2. You state in your answer to jjaper B, that the order of studies in this department is substantially the same as tliat described by your predecessor, iMr. Boylan, before the Commis- sion of Inquiry in 1826. Do you take a part at all in the examination of students at their entrance into the College? — Ves. 3. You are aware that there is a resolution of the Trustees, passed in 1821, that no scholars shall be admitted into the College of Maynooth, who shall not bo found capable of answering in Murray’s Abridgment of English Grammar ; is that rule enforced ? — I did not know that such a rule or resolution was passed in 1821. There is none of that date in the Abstract of the Board Buies, usually kept in the professor’s library. A rule to that effect was passed in 1829, and revived in 1841 ; it has not been enforced. 4. Are the candidates submitted to any examination in English grammar, or in English composition of any kind, either original or written translations of Latin or Greek ? — No. 5. Can you state any reasons why the resolution of the Trustees is not enforced ? — I never heard any reason assigned, but I know that the late President, Dr. Montague, when intimating to me some time after my appointment to the chair the existence of such a rule, gave me to understand, that it need not or could not be rigidly enforced. 6. Is it a fact, that the great majority of the students who are admitted into Maynooth, are euflicieutly versed in the elementary knowledge of the English language? — Of the 110 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 133 students In tlic Englisli class this year, more than 100 read before their entrance into Col- lege the ordinary course of English grammar ; and the rest, with one excei)tion, read some portion of it. I think tlie same could be said of the students generally, since 1 became j)rofessor. They know the grammar sulliciently to observe the ordinary rules of syntax, though from never having been j)ractised in composition they do not know howto divide it into sentences, &c., &c., hy punctuation : half of them 1 think, never attempted English cojuposition of any kind before their entrance into College. 7. Arc all correct in their orthography ? — Not all : the number of those deficient in that respect is, however, not considerable, not greater any year since 1 became professor than about six, at least of those who studied in the English class. 15ut 1 must observe, that since that time, nearly two hundred students entered the College, who were never in the Englisli class, nor subjected to any examination in English, because they entered for classes more advanced than the logic class. 8. Of whose proficiency in English composition you had no means of forming any opinion ? — None. 1). After the entrance, do any means exist of ascertaining how far they attain proficiency in orthography ?■ — Yes, for those who study in the Englisli class. 1 give them a subject to write on in the lecture hall ; I carefully examine all their compositions, marking every fault in orthography. The writer signs his composition with his own name and a fictitious name. I announce the fictitious name, and point out all the bad spelling in the comjjosi- tion to which that name is signed. The person is thus made aware of his deficiency, and at the same time spared, what I conceive would be the extreme humiliation, in presence of 1 1 0 young men, of being exhibited as a person ignorant of the first elements of Avhat all students are supposed to know at their entrance into College. 10. What means are taken to correct them ? — They write in my presence during the year compositions, at least once a month ; and all their compositions are examined, and the bad spelling corrected in the same manner. 11. You ascertain once a month where tiiere is a deficiency, but how is the deficiency corrected in the individuals, who require it ? — I do not conceive it my duty to hold a spell- ing class, but I direct their attention to the general rules of orthography. I order them to read every day, with a view to the correction of this deficiency, some part of an English work. I have invariably cautioned them against writing even to their friends, without con- sulting their dictionary, and these admonitions I have generall}’ found to be effectual. 12. Ought there not to be some means taken to ascertain their proficiency in those branches of education at the time of their entrance into College ? — 1 think there ought ; by enforcing the present rule, and moreover, by requiring all candidates to write some kind of composition, if not original, at least a translation of some of the classics. 13. Do you not think that the best way of correcting the defect in their English education would be by adhering steadily to that rule, and that that would tend to induce preparatory schools, to apply themselves to that object ? — Yes ; but I fear that to exclude a person who had not acquired a good knowdedge of orthography, when young, would frequently be equi- valent to an exclusion from the College for ever. Some students, whose early education had been neglected in this particular, men too of excellent talents, assured me that it cost them more trouble to correct their bad spelling, than to attend to other parts of their studies; I would not therefore enforce the rule rigidly against a candidate, say tw’enty years of age. 14. But you think it would bo advantageous to enforce it rigidly at an earlier period? — Yes, unless there w'ere some special reasoiis for not enforcing it : it might happen that the candidate, though qualified in other respects, had no opportunity of acquiring an English education. 15. Have you ever knowm a student who was a candidate for admission rejected on account of a want of knowledge of the English language ? — No, I have not. 16. You state that you devote some part of the time to instructions on the composition of a sermon — wdiat do you mean by “ instructions on the composition of a sermon ?” — The adaptation of the general rules for the composition of any regular discourse to the compo- sition of a sermon. 17. Are these rules wdhch bear upon the matter of a sermon, or merely upon the delivery of a sermon ? — On the composition of a sermon, that is, rules for its difierent parts, for the exordium, the proposition, the proof, &c., &c. 18. l)oes that apply to rules for discourses in general, or to discourses pecuharly adapted for the pulpit ? — It refers exclusively to sermons. 19. Do you point out to the students wdiat are the kind of topics which they ought to introduce into sermons ; how far they ought to introduce Biblical quotations ; how far references to the Fathers ; how far particular observations upon particular virtues and par- ticular vices, and how far the application of them to the business of common life ? — There is not time for an extended course of that kind. They are taught the main principles for the difierent parts of a sermon, as those principles are found in w'orks like Fenelon’s Dia- logues on Eloquence, St. Liguori’s Instructions to Preachers, Lewds of Granada's Ecclesiasti- cal Rhetoric, Audizio’s Sacred Eloquence, &c., &c. 20. With regard to the materials for the structure of a sermon, as such, and the peculi- arity of its structure, you have not time to devote to those points? — Y"es ; all this is taught them, but not in detail. They are taught expressly wdiat is peculiar in the structure of a sermon ; what is not admissible in sermons, though admissible in eloquence of a difierent kind. l^th October, 18;‘i3. 11 . Kev. Matthew Kelly. in knowledge of English. Orthography. Composition of Sermon*. 134 MAYKOOTH COMMISSION. 13t/» October, 1833, IT llev. Mattlicw Kelly. Prize Essays. Monthly Essays. CoiTection of Monthly Essays. Numbers in witness’s class. Proposed division into two classes. Employment of Dun- boyne students in teaching. 21. Do you make them compose sermons, and thus apply your rules ? — No ; hut while I am giving instructions on the composition of a sermon, I always make it a point that they sliall be at the same time composing their prize essays. 1 take that opportunity of endea- vouring, hy frequently illustrating and referring to the subject on which they are writing, to inculcate those rules for the composition of a sermon, which apply equally "to the composi- tion of any regular discourse. 22. How much of the course does that particular portion of your instruction comprise ? I think nearly a month. 23. How many lectures ? — T cannot state precisely. 24. You take advantage of the occasion of their preparing their prize essays ? — Yes. 25. What period of the year is that? — The close of the year. 26. That only occurs, of course, once a-year? — Yes. 27. Is the prize essay of each student submitted to your inspection ? — Yes. 28. Do you make any particular remarks with reference to each student’s productions ? No, not with reference to the prize essays; they are given in to me at the close of the year. 29. That is the only composition of the student which he makes during his course, is it not ? — He writes a composition usually every mouth, in the English class, as I have ah-eady told yon. 30. What are those? — Essays written in an hour, such as I have already described on a subject proposed by myself in the lecture hall. That exercise is obligatory on all, without exception. Sometimes I announce beforehand a subject, and require an essay on it. I may not get an essay from all on subjects so proposed. 31. But you have the monthly essays from all ? — Yes. 32. Do you read each essay of each student? — As a general rule, I do, especially during the first half of the year. 33. Do you communicate with each student, with respect to each student’s particular defects? — Individually I do not. I select a number of those essays — good, bad, and indif- ferent ; those I consider good the students themselves read publicly in the class. I think it a stimulus to industry to have them read in this way. The bad I commonly correct by selecting a great number of the most defective, and by pointing out their faults publicly, sometimes calling students to correct the view taken of the subject. 34. What proportion of those essays do jmu make the subject of particular comment ? — About thirty or forty. 35. So far as correction is applied, the rest must, of course, go without correction ? — Except the correction derived from hearing others corrected. 36. During what period do you make those observations upon those defects? Do you appropriate the whole of one single lecture to it ? — At least one lecture. 37. Once a month ? — Yes, once a month for the public compositions; once a week, during a whole lecture, for the private compositions. 38. Y’ou stated that your English class averaged in number about one hundred, and this year it will he more than one hundred and ten? — Yes. 39. Do the whole body of the students attend you in the English class, at one and the same time, in the same class? — Yes, 40. And they attend you four times a week ? — Yes. 41. That number of one hundred or one hundred and ten? — Yes. 42. You stated, did you not, that the tendency of your class will certainly be to increase in number ? — Certain!}', beyond one hundred. 43. Are you of opinion that this is the best arrangement, receiving all those students in one and the same class four times a week? — I am of opinion that the great number in the same class is some obstacle to their improvement. If there were a smaller number, there could be individual communication with every student regarding his compositions, at least by criticising all those compositions publicly — a thing impracticable in a class of one hundred and ten, unless nearly the whole time of lecture were exclusively devoted to it. 44. Suppose the present class of one hundred or one hundred and ten were divided into two classes, and each of those two classes attended your lecture twice a week, do you not think that you would be able to exercise abetter superintendence over individual students, and that they would, probably, under such an improved supervision, make greater ju’Ogress than they do at present ? — If that were the case, how could I have even two lectures a week in grammar and rhetoric, as at present, or devote even two weekly lectures to the reading and criticising of compositions, private and public, and to reading and recitation ? 45. You perceive that by such an arrangement you would have the junior students forming a junior class, and you might devote a course of elementary teaching exclusively to them ; to the senior class you would devote teaching what was more than elementary, and of a more advanced character ? — That arrangement, I think, would be good, provided the number of lectures were increased ; but with only four lectures a week the present system is preferable, especially as the number of the class is no obstacle to improvement in those lecture hours w'hich are devoted to the reading of compositions and to declama- tion. Any division of the present class, to be really useful, should be made on the merits of the students tested at their entrance examination, and not on the principle of seniority. 46. Do you tlnnk, now, that the Dunboyne students, or any portion of them, might take some part in the tutorial lecturing of the junior classes, so as to relieve you from the labour of teaching them all, as professor ? — Considering the standard of labour in our College, I have, comparatively, a small number of lectures every week, and I could not, therefore, advise the adoption of the tutorial system in my class, if it were to deprive me MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 135 of any of my lecture hours ; hut if, in addition to my own lectures, I had been entitled, Ociohtr, 1853. since 1 became professor, to appoint some Dunhoyno student to assist me, intrusting to his especial care those whom I knew from tlieir examinations and first compositions to jiatthew Kelly require particular attention, 1 believe that some who ])assed through my class compara- tively unimproved would now, perhaps, have as good a knowledge of English as their fellow-students. 47. Do not you think that tutorial aid would bo of great advantage to you, with refe- rence both to grammar and com])osition, applying more of the teacher’s time to the particular instruction of each student? — Yes, especially in the correction of compositions. 48. You would be disposed to admit, would you not, that, for the puiq)ose of improving the writing of English, through the medium of English com])osition in prose or verse, it is necessary that the exercises should bo very carefully looked over and corrected? — Certainly. 49. Do you thiidc it possible that such supervision can he exercised adequately by your- self, when you have a class of one hundred and ten pu])ils to lecture a week ? — 1 do not think it can he done so frequently as to correct effectually all faults in composition. 50. At present you are obliged to pass over a great deal of that deficiency, for the purpose of not impeding the progress of other students? — I pass over no deficiency that comes under my observation. I correct all the essays that I get, but I cannot give, so frequently, public exercises for that purpose as I would wish, consistently with the inte- rests of the more advanced students. 51. Is it a part of your system, in teaching English, to accustom the students to read aloud to you in English, so as to correct their accent? — Yes. 52. What is the system that you pursue in your French Class ? — The French Class is French, purely catechetical. One-third of the students entering the class are totally unacquainted with French grammar ; another third, I would say, have a vei’y slight knowledge of it ; and the remaining third have such a knowledge of it as, without great trouble, to be able to translate an ordinary book. 53. Whore do they acquire that knowledge ? — In the seminaries generally, and some- times in other schools. 54. You have said that it would not be judicious to require a greater amount of know- ledge from students generally, entering the College, but that it would be judicious to require a knowledge of French from those who enter for the Logic Class ? — Yes; for the students who enter the College for the Logic Class commonly come from seminaries in which French is taught. Hence it would not be inconvenient to them to require, before entering I the Logic Class, a knowledge of French ; while it woidd be most desnable, for reasons stated in my written answer, that all persons commencing logic knew some French. The ; fact is, the freshmen logicians in the French Class, from September until Christmas, are merely listening to what they have nearly all learned before. 55. Are the Commissioners to understand, when you speak of a knowledge of the French language being required before entering the Logic Class, that you meaii before entering I the College? — Yes; and also that there should be one lectiu’e each week, in French, for the Rhetoric Class, so that all persons entering the Logic Class, whether freshmen or not, should have some knowledge of French. 56. Who are the examiners on the entrance of students? — The President, Vice-Presi- dent, and Deans ; two professors are requested by the Board to attend. 57. Are you requested to attend? — No, not specially, nor otherwise than as one of the General Board of Examiners. 58. If you did attend the entrance examination you would have a greater knowledge of the deficiency of the students ? — I have attended as regularly as any other professor. 59. And voted against those whom you find deficient ? — Certainly, according to the principle expressed in my written answer, voting against all who do not display that pro- ficiency which might be expected from ordinary industry and moderate abilities. 60. Voting for then- total rejection ? — Sometimes for total rejection, more frequently for their being sent into a lower class than that for which they presented themselves. 61. Are the students better prepared, during the last five years, at the entrance examina- tions ? — I am sorry to state that, to lu}^ own knowledge, in some of the best circumstanced counties in Ireland, after 1847, a great number of persons who had been in comfortable cir- cumstances, were obhged to withdraw their children from school, some for months, some for years. Within the last four or five years many have entered the College more deficient in English than during my first years in the English chair, a fact which I attribute mainly to the circumstance just mentioned. 62. Could you suggest a means of effecting the rejection of these thus deficient ? — I have suggested the same rule as that laid down for the examination in algebra and geometry, which never became efficient until a quorum was appointed. 63. You are of opinion that if there were a quorum to examine the students in English at entrance, they would sufficiently keep out the ignorant ? — Yes. 64. You have stated that the rule respecting a knowledge of Enghsh could be enforced by an arrangement similar to that by which the entrance examination in algebra and geometry are now conducted; wdiat is that arrangement? — For the first seven years after that rule was made it was left to the Board of Examiners in general, and not enforced rigorously — not at all for some time. In 1837 three persons were speciaUy appointed to conduct the examinations, which were thenceforward rigorous enough ; after that time candidates came prepared in mathematics. Examiners at entrance. State of preparation of students of late years. Mode of effecting re- jection of those insuf- ficiently prepared in English. Method adopted -with respect to Algebra and Geometry. 136 MAYiVOOTn COMMISSION/ I3th October, 1853. 11 . Kev. Matthew Kelly, Irululgence to per- sons of a more ad- vanced age. Communications between Professors and Trustees. Desirable to continue study of English in senior classes. And to have speci.al course of lectures on pulpit oratory. Library for junior classes. Selection of books for library. Desirable to have good selection of books for junior classes. Witness’s professor- ship combines two distinct professor- ships contemplated by the Statutes. 65. You would be iucliuod to bo iiidulgeut to persons after they arrived at a certain age, because you would know tliat it miglit be very difficult to improve tliem iu spelling, there- fore you would excuse their ignorance if they knew other matters very well ? — Yes, especially when they had not had before entrance an oiiportunity of acquiring a good English education. 66. Would it be judicious to enforce the rule very strictly against persons under nine- teen, for instance? — Yes, generally. 67. Have you ever made any suggestions to that effect to the Trustees? — No. 68. Are the Commissioners to understand that there is no particular opportunity on the part of the professors to communicate upon the subject of their studies with the Trustees? — The Trustees, I suppose, knew that the rule was not enforced. 69. You are not expected to make such suggestions, are you? — AYe may, and sometimes do, make them. I got two additional premiums for the English Class upon my own application. 70. Do not you think that in consequence of the increased grant under which there are now a greater number of free places, the enforcement of this rule, as to English, might be facilitated ; iu other words, that there being so many free places now, you might more easily and safely enforce a rule of this sort as to a preparatory knowledge of English ? — I think so. 71. When the students leave your class you still think that their proficiency is not such as to make it needless to pursue the study of English further in their subsequent classes ? — It is desirable, 1 think, that attention, iu some way, should bo given to English in their subsequent classes. Some who master, at once, other parts of their studies, requiring no ordinary intellect, find a great difficulty in acquiring a practical knowledge of the rules of composition. I do not think the increase of the nuniher of English lectures, within one year, would be so useful as the extending of the same number of lectures over more years than one. A special course of lectures on pulpit eloquence I think most desirable. 72. AVhat library accommodation do the students in your class possess ? — 1 heard the librarian state that there has been lately a small collection of works placed in the junior library for the use of the students in my classes. 73. You have not heen iu that librai’y since 1845 ? — No ; except occasionally, until lately there were no books in that library since 1845. 74. Are the books lent out of the library? — No. 75. Do you possess any power to recommend books which you think ought to be purchased ? — No. 76. E'oes the bursar select them? — No; the lilwarian, I believe. 77. Did you send recommendations to the librarian ? — A"es. 78. Are they complied with ? — Yes, to some extent, lately. 79. Is that library to which you refer of any practical use? — I do not know what are the rules regarding access to that library since its re-establishment. It was of practical use before 1845. 80. What was the practical use of it ? — The students had access to a small, but good collection of works, though not so frequently as I think desirable. 81. Are you awai-e whether there was a good catalogue of the library at any time ? — No ; the junior library would not very much require a catalogue. 82. Ai*e 3'ou aware whether there were many duplicates of the same book ? — No. 83. AYere the books placed in aipy particular order iu the library, each book in its proper place ? — 1 cannot say ; the collection was small, and the particular order of the books therefore not veiy material. 84. Do 3mu not think it desirable to have a librarj" for the use of your classes? — Yes, most desirable : a choice collection of works on philosopln', on English and French litera- tui’e and classics ; and also, that the selection of those works for the junior libi’ary should, in future, be made by the dean and professors in the junior College. 85. Do 3"OU think it would bo expedient to establish a lending library for the use of the junior students? — I heard that suggestion made, but I have formed no ojiinion 04 the matter. 86. Do jme thiuk that the junior students would voluntarily subscribe to such a library, if a small annual subscri2)tion of ten shillings a 3’car was required for the purpose ? — I cannot say ; ])robably they would urge that the3’ should have free library accommodation as well as the theology students. 87. Your present professorship, I think, is a professorship unknown to the Statutes of the College — the Professorship of English and French? — The Professorship of French is not called 1)3' that name in any part of our Statutes. 88. Ill the Statutes 3'ou have a Professor of English Elocution, and a separate Professor of Modern Languages ? — Y"es. 89. Are the Statutes now carried out in this respect ? Are there two professors ? — No. 90. But the business of teaching the French language has, 63' the practice of the College, been intrusted to the Professor of English Elocution? — Y"es; such has been the practice during many years. 91. Afeu stated, did 3'ou not, that that practice has existed since July, 1802 ? — No; the first Professor of French was appointed in that year, but he was ATce-President. 92. Have the goodness to state whether, when this appointment to the Professorship of French took place in July, 1802, it was a distinct professorship from the Professorship of English? — According to my present recollection, the person then appointed Professor of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 137 French was Vicc-Frcsidcnt of the College, the Rev. Francis Power, who was not Professor of English. 93. 'I'ho first title of the English chair was “English Elocution,” “ AiujUcance EloaUionis,” which appears to have been afterwaials changed into the title of English Rhetoric? — Yes; so it a])pears from IMr. Poylan’s evidence, in 1826. 94. Are you not of opinion that if the provision of the statutes, hy which there is a chair exclusively delegatcil to I'higlish elocution was observed, you would he able to give additional lectures, and more time to the students in English? — Yes. 95. In truth, does it not appear to you to be (]uito imj)ossible that the same ])erson can teach English well, who has to teach French well at the same time ? — Ry no means, if there be a sufficient number of lectures. It is impossible, I think, to teach, in fifty lectures, at the rate of two lectures a week, a class of seventy, to write French and speak it, cs]>e- cially when one-third of them were utterly ignorant of that language at the commencement of the year. Rut as lor the knowledge which enables such a class to consult with perfect ease those ecclesiastical works which are so useful, and 1 may say indispensable, tor the Catholic ecclesiastic in the present state of our Catholic literature in this country — such a knowledge can be taught by a IVofessor of English and French, and I have taught it. 96. In two lectures a week? — Yes; the great majority of the French Class, since I became acquainted with them, were able, at the end of the year, to translate all French ecclesiastical works necessary in the ordinary course of their studies. 97. Should you say that you have imparted more knowledge than leads to this result; that you have enabled the student to teach himself better than he was able to do before ho began? — 1 mean to assert that the great majority of the class, after reading Rossuet’s Universal History, are able to read any other portion of Rossuefs works, or of those of bis great contemporaries. 98. Suppose the case of a person who never learned any French till he commenced with your class, and that he then received two lectures a week as you have described — do you consider that at the close of the year that person will have acquired a competent knowledge of French ? — I know that some persons, so circumstanced, have attained and eminently deserved the first honors in the class by diligent application during the year ; and I believe, that with the exception of perhaps half a dozen, all acquire such a competent knowledge as enables them to translate an ordinary French prose work. 99. In addition to their attention to English they have also to attend to their Humanity Class, or to their Rhetoric Class, or to Logic ? — Yes ; and those wdio entered the College for the Logic Class have three classes to attend to — the English Class, the Frencli Class, and the Logic Class — but those freshmen logicians, I have already stated, almost all know French before they enter the College. 100. Do such of them as have not learned it before acquire a competent knowledge within the time you have mentioned, from the attention you have been able to devote to them? — Yes; such a knowledge as enables them to translate an ordinary French prose work, and also a competent knowledge of the grammar of the language. 101. What do you mean by that? — The whole grammar, with the exception of some parts of syntax, which very few are able perfectly to master who have not been in France. 102. Is that the amount of acquisition which you consider that a jjerson who has not been taught French before, acquires during the period of your lectures? — Yes ; the gram- mar of the language, and a knowledge of the vocabulary, as far as that can be acquired from the portion of the work which forms the subject of the June examination. 103. What amount of translation does a student so circumstanced, who has never learned French before, execute during the year, from a French book into Enghsh ? — About half of Bossuet’s Universal History. 104. Will you explain what you consider a competent knowdedge of the French lan- guage ? — Ry a competent knowledge, for the purposes of the ecclesiastical student in this country, I mean such a knowledge as enables him to translate without difficulty an ordin- ary French prose work. A coni})etent knowledge of a language in the abstract, implies, I presume, the power of writing and speaking it, &c., &c. 105. What proportion of your class is able, at the end of the year, to translate an ordin- ary French prose work ? — All, except, perhaps, about half a dozen. 106. How many are able to write French? — Not many more than those who get pre- miums, that is about seven or eight, write it correctly. My main object has been, and must be, so long as there are only about fifty lectures in French, that is two lectures a week for one year, to give all the class the greatest possible knowledge of the vocabulary, by translating as much as possible in that limited time. 107. Are your lectures limited to teaching them to read and write French, or do they also learn to speak French ? — They learn to speak French so far as that when I propose a sentence, they are able to put it through its various grammatical forms. I give, for in- stance, an affirmative sentence : they change it into a negative or interrogative, or put the verb into a diiferent tense, or reverse the order, and make the objective the nominative case. In this way, the great majority of the class are able to give me correctly all the grammatical constructions of a sentence, and so far to master the colloquial idiom of the language. 108. It is your opinion, is it not, that it Avould he desirable that the amount of English instruction should be increased, and that there should be separate instruction in French? —Yes, whenever a Chair of Modern Languages is established, which would, of course, include the French. t mu October, 1S53. ~n. Kev. Matthew Kelly. Advisable to have distinct chair of Kiiglish elocution. Practicability of teaebing English and French liy the same professor. Proficiency of the students in French. Other classes at- tended by those who aitcnd the classes of English and Frencli. Amount of know- ledge of French acquired. 138 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 13t/j October, 1853. 11 . liev. JIatthew Kelly. \ Advisable and prac- ticable that there should be an efficient test of English edu- cation at entrance. And that tutorial aid should be given in witness's class. Extensive instruc- tion in English through the several classes. Premiums for compo- sition in every class. Witness’s object to produce some first- rate English writers, and to stimulate English composition in junior classes. Public reading. Erequency of. Time allotted for. Exercises in recitation. 109. It was the practice, was it not, in former times, for the Class of Natural Philosophy to attend the French Class ? — 1 believe so, but not since they began to attend ecclesiastical history, nor for many years before. 110. That is not the practice now. The freshmen of the Logic Class are the highest class who read French ? — Yes. 111. Are you aware Avhether the young men, after they have quitted the French Class, pursue the study of French theological literature? — Yes, many of them. 1 12. Do they read the sermons of Bossuet and others? — Yes, those are frequently given as premiums ; the library, too, is well stocked with them. 1 13. Would it not be a very material improvement, as a mode of increasing the atten- tion paid to the fundamental parts of English education, that, after a specified time, say the lapse of another year, the condition should be strictly imposed of not allowing any student to be admitted into iVIaynooth who was not a proficient in spelling, and who had not acquired some knowledge of the rudiments of grammar: and in the meantime that there should be, in addition to your own instructions, the assistance of some tutor who would instruct those whom it would not be wise now to exclude from entrance, in those early fundamental branches, a deficiency in which appears now to exist ? — 1 have already given my opinion that there ought to be a strict examination in English grammar at entrance ; and also that, in so large a class as mine, tutorial aid would be very useful, especially for the purpose which you have mentioned. 1 14. Would it be practicable ? — It seems to me practicable : the Board can best judge. 11.5. Do you think that the education in English would be improved by extending the course of English education over several classes or several years, and are you of opinion that any improvement could be applied, by means of prizes in those classes for composi- tion in English connected with the subjects taught therein? — I think it desirable to extend over more than his present classes the course of instruction in English by the English pro- fessor. In all the classes I also think it desirable that prizes should be given for the best English composition on any one subject treated during that year by the professor, the professor himself, whether of theology or philosophy, being the judge to award the prize. 116. Regard being had to the language of the composition? — And to its adaptation to popular instruction ; correctness of doctrine, of course, supposed, but mere extent of erudi- tion never entitling to the prize. 117. Do not you think that, in a College so largo as Maynooth, the system of prizes whicli you suggest will never reach to that class who most want instruction and improve- ment? — My opinion is, with regard to such prizes in IMaynooth, that persons not previously distinguished should not be required to compete for them. I suppose that all are suffi- ciently grounded in the ordinary rules of composition by two or three years’ instruction in English. My object would be, then, that every class passing through the College should produce some first-rate English writers, an object which, I believe, would be obtained by this system of prizes for good English composition in all the classes, and on the business of the classes, in which they take a present and exciting interest. This system of prizes would also give an impulse to the study of English composition in the junior classes, when they saw that proficiency^ in such composition was rewarded by>' collegiate honors every ■year of their course. 118. If I understand you rightly, you wmuld adopt a double measure, namely^, a more complete system of education for the junior classes, and then you would engraft upon it this system of pi'izes for the purpose of encouraging the senior classes to keep up and improve their knowledge of the English language, by sending in essays for prizes in com- position ? — Yes, exactly so. 119. Giving the prizes cannot supersede the necessity of the individual teaching of all? —No. 120. MTth reference to public reading, you state, “ A rule of the Board requires that the students of this class shall be exercised in public reading in the lecture-hall during the year ; I select for that purpose standard English author-s, especially those that either treat of the business of the English department, or best illustrate, by example, the subjects that happen at the time to be discussed in my lectures how' often does that reading take place ? — It is continued all through the year. 121. Does it take place at every lecture? — No. 122. How often does it take place during the year ? — The time varies ; sometimes once a week, sometimes oftener, through the year. 123. How long, on each occasion, does that reading continue? — No fixed time; frequently about a quarter of an hour ; as other more pressing duties permit. All the students have the opportunity of attending to jMr. Stack’s excellent lectures on this matter in the Christ- mas, or Easter, or Summer vacation. 124. You say that exercises in recitation or pulpit delivery, occupy, during the greater part of the year, nearly one lecture hour every week. Of what do these exercises consist ? — ■ Yes, once a week, from All Saint’s until about Easter. They consist of the recitation, by the students, of some portions of sacred eloquence, selected from approved English preachers, or from the great French and Italian orators, Bossuet, Bourdaloue, MassiUon, Segneri, &c, 125. Do they read out or repeat ? — They deliver them from memory. 1 26. Do they compose pieces for delivery ? — Very rarely for delivery' ; they frequently compose pieces on sacred subjects, as private essay's; but it is more useful to the whole class that nothing should be delivered jjublicly but what is of superior merit, and com- positions of that class could not be expected from young men who have but just left the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 139 preparatory schools, and the great majority of whom have not yet commenced even their philosopliy. 127. Do you criticise this delivery? — Certainly; and call on several students to do so likewise. 128. What is commonly the subject of what you call private essays? — The subjects arc as A'arious as the tastes and acquirements of the writers ; religious, historical, classical, literary. 129. IIovv many private essays do you receive during the year? — I never counted the number ; all who obtain premiums or distinctions, that is about quarter of the class, write about ten or twelve cacli ; very nearly as many are written by anotlier quarter. 130. Do you read all these essays in the lecture hall? — iVll, or parts of all that 1 have time to read in one lecture hour every week during the year. 131. What have generally been the subjects of the prize essays in English and French? — Since my appointment the subjects were, in 1842, “ Christian Ireland, before the Invasion of the Danes;” “Irish Saints on the Continent before 11 72:” in 1843, “Napo- leon as Christian Emperor;” “ Oratorical Action in 1844, “ lleligious Orders in the Middle Ages;” “ St. Paul preaching in the Areopagus:” in 1845, “The Crusades;” “ St. Columbanus:” in 184.5, “ Ireland ])ropagating the Catholic Faith in j\Iodern Times:” “ Pope St. Gregory VII :” in 1847, “ Influence of Catholicity and of Protestantism on the Fine Arts, compared;” “ Bossuet as Orator and Historian:” in 1848, “On History;” “ Irish Colleges on the Continent, from the lleformation to the French Revolution :” in 1849, “Military Orders of the Church; Knights of St. John, &c., &c., during the Middle Ages ;” “ St. Malachy :” in 1850, “ Sacred Eloquence;” “ Poetry and Oratory Compared ;” in 1851, “Constantine the Great;” “Charlemagne:” in 1852, “Cardinal Ximenes ;” “Destruction of Jerusalem by Titus :” in 1853, “Columbus, or Discovery of America;” “ Has Protestantism promoted Literature ?” 132. Do you know why a Chair of Modern Languages was not founded in 1845? — No; e.xcept that the two new chairs then founded, especially the ecclesiastical history chair, were more required, and that the grant would not supply a decent maintenance if more than two were founded. 133. Were you ever a lecturer? — Yes, for a short time when 1 was on the Dunboyne Establishment. 134. Would you think it injurious to your studies to be so employed? — Yes, during the first year on the Dunboyne Establishment, which I have always considered to be, if properly spent, the most improving year in a student’s whole course ; but if my labours, as lecturer, were light, and did not prevent my private studies, I would consider it an advantage to myself to be so employed during my third or second year on the Dunboyne. 135. You say that you “give instruction in grammar during the first, and in rhetoric during the second half of the year.” Is your instruction in grammar professorial or cate- chetical, by way of lecture, or by way of individual teaching ? — Chielly by way of indivi- dual teaching, to enable such of the students as may not have been well instructed in grammar before entrance, to acquire that knowledge. 136. Do you require each student to prepare himself in any particular part of grammai’, and examine each student in that in which he so prepares himself? — The lecture is ap- pointed for the whole class ; all cannot be interrogated in every part ; but all are liable to be interrogated, and sevei’al are interrogated. 137. About how many on each occasion ? — Sometimes in a lecture — two, three, four, five, or six. 138. How many lectures does that part of the course occupy ? — It occupies about half of the year. 139. That is four lectures a week ? — I have already stated that half of these lectures are devoted to recitation, and to the reading of essays, public and private. 140. Two lectures for half the timo are applied to grammar and rhetoric; are they not? — Yes. 141. Is the entire period of your hour of lecture occupied in the examination of those four, five, or six students in the difterent parts of grammar, or is any portion of it taken up in delivering a lecture as professor ? — A considerable portion of time is taken up in expo- sitions given by me on the history of the English language, on the general principles of grammar as applied to English grammar, and on the various other topics which I have stated form part of my course of lectures. 142. Then, in fact, the interrogation of the students, and that teaching, occupy the whole of one half of the course, two lectures a week? — Yes. 143. Is it your opinion that by that mode of teaching a full knowledge of English gram- mar is acquired ? — Y es ; there are exceptions, but I know that by that mode the great majority of the class acquire as competent a knowledge of English grammar as of any other subject. 144. Is it not possible that some of the students might pass that course without being examined at all or more than once ? — It frequently happens that they are examined only once, that is, that they are interrogated in the class only once. 145. Are they interrogated out of the class ? — At the examinations they all are. 146. How often does it happen? — Once a year. 147. Y"ou state in your written answer, “ The former is so conducted, that while it enables the very small number that may be deficient in elementaiy knowledge, to sujjply that defect, it is made for the students at large, a means of practically illustrating the pro- t 2 13(/i October, 1S53. ’iT Kcv. JIattliew Kc41y. Criticism of, Subjejts of, Private essays. Subjects of English and French essays since witness’s ap- pointnicut. Mode of instruction in grammar. Number interrogated during one lecture. Portion of lecture occupied bj" profes- sor’s expositions. Two lectures weekly occupied by such ex- positions and cate- chetical instruction. A student might pass through the course without being exa- mined in class more than once. 140 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. I'Sth October, 1853. IT Kev. IVIattliew Kc'lly. Instructions in rhetoric, Wliicli occupy two lectures weekly (luring the remaining half of the year. Improvement of pre- paratory schools ; want of jn-actice of English composition in diocesan seminaries. Temporal power of the Pope in the Church. 14t/i October, 1853. 12 . Rev. Win. .Jennings. Course taught by witness. Valla’s Logic. Latin the language of Logic Class. One-third of witness’s lectures in the form of prelections ; The remainder cate- chetical. gressive cliangcs and idiom of the English language ; the construction of sentences ; and the general rules of composition.” That is what you ajtply to the two lectures a week? — Y'es. 148. And the suhsequent portion of your answer to the second question, with regard to tlie mode in which you convey instruction as to rhetoric, is wliat you have already stated in the answer that you have previously given, as to the composition of sermons ? — No ; for there are. moreover, about 200 questions on eloquence in general; on the general pro- perties of style; on the figures of rhetoric; and on the history of the English language, to which all the students are expected to answer at the summer examination, and in which they generally do answer correctly. 149. And tliat occupies two lectures a w’eek for the remaining half of the year? — Yes. 150. AVhei'C w’ero you educated previously to entering IMaynooth ? — I was educated in my native city, Kilkenny : first, at a school conducted by Father Brennan, a Franciscan friar, author of an Ecclesiastical History of Ireland ; and then at the diocesan school, where 1 remained till I entered Maynooth, in August, 1831. 151. Did you hold a professorship in the Irish College afterwards, and did you study French abroad? — I left the Dunhoyne for the Irish College, Paris, in April, 1839 ; I was Professor of Logic for half a year, until August, 1839, and of Theology for the two fol- lowing years. 1 availed myself of the opportunity to acquire a sufficient knowledge of the French language. 152. From your observation, should you say that the preparatory schools of Ireland were improving? — ^1 know that there is a diversity of opinion as to other studies, but I think, in English composition they are improving ; there arc not, howmver, many diocesan seminaries that enforce what may he called properly, the practice of English composition. 153. Dr. Delahogue lays down tliis proposition in his treatise “ De Ecclesia” : “Christus Petro et successoribus ejus aut ecclesim nullam concessit potestatem directam vel indi- roctam in Regain temporalia; proindeque isti nunquam auctoritate clavium, etiam indi- recte deponi possunt, aut eorum subditi a fide ct obedientia illis dehita eximi ac dispen- sari.” Has tliat proposition been constantly maintained by the professors in IMaynooth College, so far as you know and believe ? — So far as I know’, that proposition has been maintained by the professors in Maynooth College. I cannot say that to my knowledge it has been taught ; for the truth is, 1 do not remember that it w’as discussed in class ; it was rather assumed in the sense of our oath of allegiance. 154. Have you ever heard anything in the College among the professors to the con- trary ? — Never. 1 55. MTU you state wdiether you have any reason to apprehend that a contrary prin- ciple, or a principle in any degree clashing with that laid dowm in the proposition of Dr. Delahogue, to w’hich your attention has been called, is entertained by any of the students in iSIaynooth ? — I have no reason to believe that any opinion or principle clashing wdththat laid dowm in the proposition of Dr. Delahogue is maintained by any student in Maynooth. [ The Witness ivithdreivi^ Friday, 14th October, 1853. The Rev. William Jennim/s examined. 1. You are Professor of Logic at IMaynooth ? — Y"es. 2. M' ere you a Dunhoyne student ? — Y'es. 3. MTiat year did you enter the College ? — In the September of 1844, I entered. 4. At wdiat age w’ere you wdien you entered ? — About seventeen. 5. In addition to logic, you lecture upon metaphysics and ethics, do you not? — Yes." 6. M'hich course do you commonly commence with ? — The invariable custom is to com- mence with the study of logic. 7. The text-hook or house treatise on logic wdiich you use is a compilation by Joseph Valla, is it not ? — Y"es. 8. Is it a treatise in Latin or in French ? — In Latin. 9. Is Latin the language of your class? — -Y'^es. As often, howmver, as I consider that it would be for the advantage of the students in my class — as it sometimes may be for many reasons — that a particular subject should he exjilained in English, I have no difficulty in permitting tliem to use English. But according both to rule and to practice, the language of the Logic Class is Latin. 10. Do you adopt the catechetical system of lecturing, or do you generally read? — I combine both modes : about one-third of tlie lectures are in the form of prelections — but not exactly read verbatim from a written paper — the remaining two-thirds are catechetical. 1 1 . Can you explain, briefly, what is the arrangement adopted by Valla in his treatise on logic ? — Valla’s arrangement does not differ substantially from that generally adopted by Cartesian writers on logic. 12. In your lectures do you follow’ Valla’s arrangement ? — Not rigorously. 13. Will you state the arrangement which you adopt in your lectures on logic? — I com- mence the course of logic with a brief statement of the nature and law’s of definition. I then proceed to deliver and vindicate some one definition of logic. 14. M ill you state the manner in which, in your lectures, you deal with the definition of logic ? — 1 begin with an attempt to ascertain the historical origin and import of the word Definition of logic. .AIINUTES OF EVII)E^X'K. 141 logic; in \vliat sonso it had been used I)cforc the time of Aristotle; what meaning was attached to it by Aristotle liimself ; was it first employed to designate a science by Zeno, the Stoic; how it diliers from the Dialectic of Plato; how it differs from the Analytic and Dialectic of Aristotle, ami so on, &c. After having discussed tlic meaning of the name, I proceed to investigate the definition of the tiling. In doing tliis 1 lay before my class a number of definitions that have been advanced at different times, and by diflercnt writers on logic. I examine the claims of each definition in order, and point out to the students where I conceive it to ho defective or inaccurate, or the contrary. For example, in consider- ing the definition of logic given by Dr. Wliatcl v, I hold that Dr. Whatcly is mistaken when ho claims for himself the credit of having been the first who represented logic as a science — that almost all the schoolmen, whatever ma}' have been the verbal diftei'onccs between them, regarded logic both as an art and a science — that in the JMaynooth class-book logic is defined to he a practical science, &c. 1 tell the students that I consider Dr. AVhately’s definition to be defective and erroneous in another material point, namely, in assigning language as exclusively the subject-matter of logic. 15. Wdl you state what is the definition of logic given by you at ^laynooth ? — I define logic, a practical science conversant about the necessary laws and forms of human thought. So that the chief object for the consideration of logic is the necessary forms of thought — whilst the science is concerned about language only as its secondary object. Ifi. Wliat further arrangement do you adopt in your lectures on logic? — After having fixed upon the definition of logic, I ])roceed to give an outline of the laws of division prepara- tory to a statement of the main divisions of the science of logic. An ample and more formal discus.sion, liowever, of definition and of division is introduced at a more advanced stage of our logical reading. 17. What are the principal divisions of logic made hj^ Valla? — Valla, without stating the matter expressly, makes virtually a twofold distribution of logic. One division comprises the psychological, the other the instrumental or mechanical part of logic. 18. Do you follow this division in your lectures? — Yes; hut 1 reverse the order in which he discusses the subject, instead of beginning, as Valla does, with the psychological part, and leaving the instrumental part till last. 1 commence with the instrumental part, and require that the students shall have mastered it before they proceed to the psychological part. 19. What are the subjects comprised in what you call the instrumental part? — Terms, propositions, and argumentation. 20. In the first place you treat of terms ? — Yes. The students of the Logic Class at Maynooth are taught upon this subject about as much substantially as is contained in the three first chapters in Mill’s system of Logic. The doctrine of categories proposed by ill’. Mill to supersede the categories of Aristotle they, of course, are not taught for reasons connected with religion, as well aswuth good logic. 21. What do you teach concerning propositions? — Merely the ordinary doctrine. Wrong definitions — such as that of Hobbes’ are shown to be wrong — the office of the copula is explained — so also is the true import of propositions — much in the same way as it is explained by Mills ; the absolute and relative properties cf propositions are discussed at considerable length. So are complex and compound propositions. In short, we treat this part of logic at IMaynooth, in nearly the same way in which it is dealt with in the Fort Eoyal Logic, a book now known to every one, and of which Valla’s treatise is little more than a translation into Latin. The students of the Logic Class at Maynooth are made acquainted with Sir William Hamilton’s Theory regarding the quantification of the predicate, as that theory has been proposed in Mr, Baynes’ Essay. I mean that they are made acquainted with the substance of it. 22. With respect to the third part, which is the most important, namely, argumentation, will you explain what you teach as comprised in that branch ? — -First of all the distinction between inference in argumentation, and the inference which takes place in the conversion and contradiction of propositions is pointed out to the students, and the nature and import of the former are carefully explained. The principal divisions of argumentation, as they are commonly found in treatises oiv logic, are set forth. Aristotle’s dictum, and the other axioms upon which syllogistic reasoning is said to depend, are explained and compared with each other. The oifice of syllogism is examined — and Locke’s objections to it are considered. Then come the old Aristotelic rules for explanation and for proof — and the students are thoroughly exercised in the application of them. The moods and figures are learned as they are given in Walker’s Logic. The students are also taught to aq>ply Sir William Hamilton’s doctrine of quantification to moods and figures.] 23. What do you teach concerning enthymeme and induction ? — With regard to enthy- meme I follow the views proposed by Sir William Hamilton in his discussions on Philoso- phy ; and with regard to induction also, I scarcely depart from what he holds, that is, I teach the difference between the material, and strictly logical inference which takes place in induction ; I teach with him, in opposition to the opinion of Dr. Whately, that induction is a distinct and independent species of logical argument — not reducible to syllogism, as its type — and that it is valid only where the enumeration has been complete and exhaus- tive. As to the rules for determining when a material inference is justifiable, when it is allowable to assert a general proposition upon the strength of an enumeration not exhaustive — the consideration of such rules is, in this view of induction, extra logical ; but, at the same time, an account of the intrinsic value and interest of the four canons given by Mr. Mills, the students at Maynooth are made acquainted with them. ll^/( October, IS-W. 127 Iiev. 'Wni. Jennings. Arrangement of logic lectures. Valla’s divisions. Terms. I’ropositions Argumentation. Enthymeme and induction. 142 MAYXOOTH COMxMISSIOK 11th October, 1853 . IJev. AVm. Jennings, r allacies. Sophisms. Time allotted to logic. Proficiency made in that time. Knowledge of logic practically kept up by teaching in meta- physics and ethics. Mctapliysics, Time allotted for. iletapliysics as understood at May- nootl). Class-book. German Pliilosophy. 24. Does Valla, in this part of his treatise, embrace the subject of fallacies? — Yes ; after having treated of simple, complex, and conjunctive syllogism, and the other species of argumentation. 25. Does the mode of treating this part of logic, at Maynooth, differ from the mode in which it is treated in Dr. AVhately’s Elements of Logic? — Not much, as to the classification and exposition of sophisms. The subject is treated more diffusely by Dr. Whately than we can treat of it at Maynooth, owing to the shortness of the time alloAved there for the study of logic. Then, of com’se, we differ widely from Dr. Whately, where he undertakes to illustrate and apply some portions of his doctrine on sophisms. For example, we should repuebate the meaning which he seems to attach to the word “ person,” inasmuch as it appears to abolish all real distinction of persons in God. In the same way, with regard to the word sin,” we entertain no doubt whatever, at Maynooth, that man is born in original sin ; on the contrary, it is an article of Catholic belief, that he is born in a state of guilt which must be cleansed by baptism before he can enter into tbe kingdom of Heaven. So with regard to the words priest, church, and various others, we are far from concurring with Dr. Whately. 26. Over what period of time do the lectures in logic extend ? — About three months they continue without interruption, and durmg these three months there are nine lectures each w^eek. 27. From your observations of the proficiency which )mur pupils make in logic, are you of opinion that three mouths is a sufficient time for them thoroughly to understand the treatise on logic ? — I think three jnonths a tolerably fair proportion of time for logic, con- sidering the great extent of the entire course through Avhicli the students are obbgcd to go in a few years. At the end of three months, I know that a student of average ability w’ill have a sound knowledge of logic ; that he will be very w'ell acquainted w'itli the doc- trine of ju'opositions and of ai'gumeiltation ; that he will possess an ordinary knowledge concerning the method of ascertaining the criteria of truth ; that he wiU be able to give the ordinaiy explanation of the “motives of judgment,” &c. A critical knowledge of logic, particularly a knowledge of its history and literature, I believe that no student can acquire in three months. 28. Do you find it necessary or expedient, in continuing the class upon the subject of metaphysics and etliics, from time to time, to apply the principles of logic to reasoning, so as to keep up their acquaintance with logic ? — In reading metaphysics and ethics, the students are continually examining definitions, proposing divisions, framing proofs, detect- ing sophisms, solving objections, and so on. In this way they are practically rehearsing the logic during the study of metaphysics and ethics. 29. Do you think that one-half your class could transfer a syllogism upon Walker’s sys- tem to one in the system of Sir WiUiam Hamilton? — If the question means, could one-half of my class apply Sir Wm. Hamilton’s doctrine of quantification, so as to exhibit every syllo- gism as logically integral, in the first of the Aristotelic figures, I do not think that one-half of them could go through the process, at least without considerable reflection. 30. They would sometimes go wrong ? — Several of them would not know bow to set about it. 31. Practically, you think that system w'ould not help them in the least ? — I am not of that opinion. 1 mean that I think it as necessary for a knowdedge of the complete science of logic to be acquainted wdth the doctrine of quantification as wdth any other part of logic. For the rest, the old moods and figures themselves are of very little practical use in the construction or examination of eveiy-day arguments. They are of value as a mental disci- pbne, but so is Sir Wm. Hamilton’s theory. 32. After concluding the lecture on logic, you proceed to lecture on metaphysics ? — Yes. 33. Before you proceed to ethics ? — Yes. 34. What period of time is given up to the study of metaphysics? — The entire half year for class between Christmas and Midsummer, with the exception of about three weeks for ethics. 35. Will you explain briefly what is understood by metaphysics at Maynooth ? — The subject admits of a two-fold division, namely, general metapbysics, and special metaphysics. In general metaphysics, we commence with an analysis of necessary and of contingent truths, with a view to ascertain the principles to which they are reducible, and by which they may be demonstrated. Then we have the old discussions concerning existence, possibility, essence, substance, subsistence, hypostasis, person: then come the relative proper- ties of being, identity, similitude, distinction, &c. : then comes an analysis of our conceptions of active power, and causation, of space, of time, &c. In special metaphysics, we treat of the Being and Attributes of God, (as I stated in reply to the printed interrogatories,) and of the nature and properties of man’s soul. 36. You have not mentioned any class-book in metaphysics? — The class-book was com- piled by Dr. Anglade. 37. The students do not possess the works of Reid and Stewart ? — Not generally, as far as I know^ 38. Are these works in the library to which thej' have access ? — ^No. 39. T ou have recommended that a library should be formed for their use ? — A well- selected library would be most useful. 40. The students of your class are taught something of German philosophy ? — I cannot say that their knowledge of German philosophy is very deep or very extensive. They are acquainted with the summa fastigia as found in the works of Catholic writers on the subject of German philosophy. 3IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 143 41. You have referred to two treatises by Italian writers on the subject — Perrone and Dmowski — are these treatises in Itaban? — No ; they are both in Latin. 42. Is the treatise by Ubaglis also in Latin ? — Yes. 43. And the treatises by Bouvier and Lacondre ? — Yes. - 44. Is the whole of your prelection in Latin upon all the subjects ? — Ordinarily it is ; but such portions of the Latin exposition as I apprehend may ap])oar obscure to the class, either on account of the nature of tlie subject, or of the technical character of the phrase- ology, 1 always repeat in English. 45. Do you insist upon the answers being in Latin, on all occasions? — 1 always prefer that they should ho. It happens, however, that a student may find it difficult to express himself in Latin with as much clearness and point as he might in English ; and at times there may he a student who finds it very difficult to convey his meaning even imperfectly in Latin; on such occasions I do not require that the use of Latin should he rigidly adhered to in answering. 46. Does that often occur?— At the commencement of the logic year, many of the students, having never before been exei’cised in employing Latin as a class-language, ap- pear to find the use of it rather awkward and embarrassing; hut as they become habituated to it, they go on much more readily ; and before Christmas several of them speak it with ease. 47. They are able to express or communicate their ideas in that language? — Sufficiently well towards Christmas. 48. Speaking of the advantages of the change made in 1845, you state, “ It also has the effect of enabling a professor, at least in the first years of his professorship, to acquire and communicate to his class a larger amount of philosophical knowledge than the same pro- fessor could, in the same time, have communicated or acquired under the old arrangement.” How has the change effected that object ? — Principally by enabling such a professor to pro- cure a good philosophical library. 49. You refer to a wi'iter of the name of Sairit ? — Yes. 60. What is the subject of his writings ? — He has published some papers on modern philosophy in the Revue des Deux Mondes. 51. His treatises are French, are they? — I am not aware that he has published any formal treatises on philosophy. I refer to some articles contributed by him to that journal on German philosophy. 52. You also refer to a writer named Lewes? — Yes; he is a contemporary English writer of some distinction among what I conceive to be the infidel party of philosophers in England. 53. On what subject does he write ? — He has written a little History of Philosophy, and published in English an Analysis of Comte’s Positivism. 54. After having completed your course of metaphysics, you proceed to discuss ethics ; what period of time is given to that ? — Ethics are studied at Maynooth mainly as a pre- paration for moral theology ; the time given to ethics is, therefore, very short ; not more than a few weeks. 55. Do you consider that the science of ethics, as taught at Maynooth, is in the form of Christian ethics ? — In the ethics taught at Maynooth, no proposition is advanced, nor con- clusion admitted, nor principle laid down, wdiich is at A^ariance with Catholic doctrine or Catholic morality, but the student of ethics cannot avail himself of revelation in establish- ing any proposition ; he is restricted to the use of alignments draivn from reason alone. It is only as to the form of proof, therefore, that a conclusion in ethics ever differs from a decision on the same case in Catholic morality ; the decisions themselves always substan- tially coincide. 56. IVhat is the nature of your lecture in ethics ; is it in the nature of a prelection ? — It is given just as it is given in logic and metaphysics, partly by prelection, partly catechetical. 57. Is there any text-book on ethics? — Yes ; by Anglade. 58. Is the subject treated by him, as you may say, upon natural reason, or as based upon revealed truth? — He is careful that his discussions shall not be to the prejudice of revealed truth ; but in conducting them he introduces the dictates of right reason only, and never introduces revelation. 59. At the conclusion of the course of ethics, do the students at Maynooth pass into the class of natural philosophy ? — Yes. 60. And the subject of ethics or moral science is completely dropped till they enter the senior department ? — Yes, it is dropped for a year. 61. It has been suggested that the present arrangement of the series of annual curricula of study might be Amry considerably improved by substituting courses of study wdiich Avould extend over two years, including Avhat is now the subject-matter of two classes in one class: for instance, that the study of logic, metaphysics, and ethics should extend over a period of two years, and be pursued concurrently Avith the study of natural philosophy ; do you think that such an arrangement would tend to advance the study of the subjects upon which you lecture at present? — I have no doubt that, per se, it Avould tend materially to promote the study of the subjects taught in my class, if another year AA'ere allowed for that study. I haA'e never reflected upon the specific arrangement proposed. 62. How many days in the week do you lecture at present ? — Each day in the week, except Wednesday and Sunday. 63. You give nine lectures in the week, do you not? — Yes. 14urpose of mastering logic, you were to give the students four months, instead of three, as at present ? — The design of c.xtcnding the period for the study of logic seems to he an excellent one ; but I have never considered the practical details of the change you contemplate. 67. Where were you trained yourself? — I was a student of St. Jarlath’s College before entering Maynooth. 68. How long did you remain there? — Two years. 69. YMu had received instruction before you went there? — Yes, I was at school in Castlebar. 70. Before you entered St. Jarlath’s? — Y^es, 71. Was there much study, specifically in English, at St. Jarlath’s? — Great care was taken to instruct the pupils in English Grammar and English composition. The ])upils in the more advanced classes were obliged to write English essays about once a week, and those were submitted to the Professor of Belles Lettres. 73. Were pains taken to instruct you in writing and in spelling? — There were daily classes for spelling and the mechanical part of writing. 73. Would no one leave St. Jarlath's deficient in writing and in spelling? — If any one, after having gone through the ordinary course in it, should leave it deficient either in spelling or writing, it would be owing entirely to his own stupidity or neglect, not to the system of education pursued there. 74. Into what class did you enter at Maynooth ? — The Logic Class. ' 75. What were the Greek authors studied at St. Jarlath’s ? — 'When I was a student there, it was usual to read portions of Euripides, of the Iliad, Demosthenes, Longinus, Epictetus; Xenophon, Lucian, and Greek Testament w’erc also read. 76. Is the education received at St. Jarlath's supposed to be a complete one up to the time of entering holy orders? — Not since ’45 ; before that time philosophy and theology had been taught at St. Jarlath’s. 77. Into what class, nowg are students from St. Jarlath’s admitted at Maynooth? — They are generally qualified to enter the Logic Class. 78. If a student enters into the Logic Class at Maynooth, and goes through the whole course of study in the College, does he ever receive any lectures in Greek? — No. 79. Y'ou never received any lectures at Maynooth in the Greek language ? — No. 80. AYhat provision was there at St. .Jarlath’s for the study of Greek ? — A daily class. 81. What was the highest book in Greek which you i-ead at St. Jarlath’s, before entering IMaynooth ? — 1 mentioned the Greek authors read there ; I could scarce venture to say which of them is entitled to rank highest. 82. Under the system pursued at St. Jarlath’s, how many years does it take to render a person fit to enter the Logic Class at Maynooth — take the case of a boy entering there, and commencing with Latin? — About six years. Six years seems to me a fair average. 83. Your class is examined twice a year, is it not? — Yes. 84. How long does the examination of each student last ? — For ten minutes. 85. The whole ho does in the year is examined into in ten minutes at the end of the year ? — Yes. 86. Is that a sufficient test, do you think ? — The professor has had opportunities enough, during the year, of testing the capacity and marking the industry of the students in his class ; besides, no student can antici])ate what part of the previous year’s reading he may be interrogated in. He may bo briefly interrogated in difi'erent parts that have no con- nexion with each other; and, moreover, it is well known to the .students that a bad answer at the examination stands greatly in the way of academical distinction. On the whole, I think ten minutes sufficient in the circumstances. 87. Do you think ten or twenty minutes would be sufficient for a stranger who had never lectured them, as you have, to be able to form a judgment as to their acquirements in logic metaphysics, and ethics ? — I think that even a stranger, who would himself be tlioroughly acquainted with the subject in which he would examine them, could form a tolerably fair judgment in that time. 88. Is the subject of your questions always limited to the lecture of the last few days, or do you go back to any part of the course ? — The matter for interrogation is always dis- tinctly pointed out at the preceding lecture, except at the monthly revisions ; the students are then liable to examination in any part of the reading of the previous month. 89. At those revisions, do you go through all the class, or only some whom you have not examined before ? — I call eight or nine students indiscriminately — some examined previously, some not. 90. When ymu were a Dunboyne student, should ymu have thought, if it had been proposed to ymu, that ymu could have undertaken to assist any' of the professors in the class of humanity, without too much of your time being taken from your other studies ? — I dare say that, if it had been usual that Dunboyne students should assist these professors — so that I W'ould be induced to keep the knowledge of classics fresh in my' mind — I might give some such assistance, without prejudice to my other studies. 91. At present the Dunboyne students are not necessarily the best students in the house, MI^'UTES OF EVIDENCE. 145 arc tlicv ? — Not necessarily ; because tlic rule is, that they be selected, according to a cer- tain ])roj)ortion, from each of the provinces ; but, de facto, the best students generally arc promoted to the Dunboync. 02. i\lay there not bo a very good student available from one of the dioceses, who yet may, by virtue of belonging to that diocese, make his way in, while a better man. l)ccause he belongs to a diocese already tilled, will be excluded ? — As far as my experience enables me to judge, students who possess, in a remarkably superior degree, the two character- istics required by the statute for promotion to the Dunbojme — that is, learning and exemplary demeanour — arc, upon the whole, very rarely excluded to make way for students of notably inferior acquirements. 1)3. Do you think that it would be advisable to confine the Dunboync studentship to the best students in the bouse? — I think that, as the system works at present, the best students arc generally ])romotcd to the Duid)oync, and that the exclusion of superior students is, practically speaking, rare and exceptional. 94. The best students do get on, upon the whole ? — Yes, with here and there an excep- tion. Uth OctobiT, IH.'j.'t. Kev. Win. Jennings. Mode of selecting Dunboyne .students. Witness’s opinion of. 95. You do not think it would be advisable to make any change in that respect ? — I do not see any benefit that would resulr from a change. 9fi. Do you sec any barm that would result from it ? — -There might be. 97. Does any at present occur to you ? — I can conceive that such a change might, in Keasons again.st some cases, greatly embarrass the action of the College Council in electing candidates for proposed change, the Dunboyne. Besides, as the Statute stands at present, the Trustees exercise at least a remote and indirect influence in both the nomination and selection of candidates for the Dunboyne, whilst the proposed change, as I understand it, would leave them no practical influence. And again, I think that the principle of extending as far as possible tbe advan- tages of the Dunboyne to every part of tins country in turn, is an equitable and wise one. 98. Supposing that the name was changed, and it was called the Dunboyne Scholar- ship. and that the appointment to that scholarship was held out as a stimulant for merit to all students from every part of Ireland, would not that more elevate the opinion of the Dunboyne students than the system which is pursued ? — I do not know what influence such a change might exercise upon the opinions of persons outside the College, but I ques- tion if it would tend to make candidates for the Dunboyne much more studious or learned than they are at present, because I am persuaded that, at present, the men best qualified are ordinarily selected for the Dunboyne. 99. You stated, did you not. that there was a day-school which you yourself were Scliool at Castlebar, educated at before you went to St. Jarlath’s ; where was that day-school ? — At Castlebar. 100. Where is it now? — At Westport. 101. Was the person who conducted it a layman ? — Yes. 102. How long were you at school in Castlebar? — About eight years — but not at the same school. 103. What was the number of boys educated at the school from which you entered St. Jarlath’s ? — The number varied considerably during the time I was there — sometimes sixty, sometimes more, sometimes less. 104. How many masters were there? — Two, sometimes three. 105. What did they teach? — Classics chiefly; geography, liistory, geometry, were also taught. 106. Was spelling particularly attended to ? — There was a dictionary class every day. 107. How many boys now attend at Westport? — I do not know, I dare say not thirty. 108. How many masters are there there ? — Two, I dare say. 109. What do they teach ? — They retain the same system. 110. What class of boys attended at your time ? — Persons intended for the professions, and for mercantile pursuits. 111. Were they boarders? — The majority were day-boys, a few' only were boarders. 112. Were tbe day-boys altogether from the town, or from a distance ? — They were entirely from the town and neighbourhood. 113. How w'ere they lodged? — All who were not boarders in the school itself, returned home to their fathers’ houses in the evening. 1 14. How many were intended for the priesthood in that school ? — About a sixth of them, I should say. 115. Do you happen to know how many are intended for the priesthood of those who are now at Westport ? — No. 1 16. Did you become Professor of Logic immediately from the Dunboyne studentship ? — Yes. 1 17. You passed into no other place ? — No. 118. While you were on the Dunboyne, you pursued special studies with a view to this particular professorship ? — Not exactly. The reading on the Dunboyne is of a character to enable one to look for any professorship that may become vacant in the College ; but then I was not continually speculating on a vacancy. 119. In the course of your lectures on ethics, you generally discuss the morality of Doctrine tauirht as actions. Will you state briefly what doctrine you teach, upon that point, as to wdiat the actions^*'*^ morality of actions consists of? — I teach, that liberty, the power to act or to avoid acting, is the indispensable basis of the morality (that is, the right or the wrong) of every human u MG MAYNOOTH COMillSSIOX. HtJi October, 1853. ]lev. 'Wm. .Jenniners. In wliat such morality consists. Tlicory of motives. Object of an act as distinct from the end or motive. No end, liowever good, justifies the commission of evil, however slight. Illustration of this principle. Selection of evil means — when an in- tellectual and when a moral defect. act. Without this liberty no act is a moral or imputable act. I would teach the students of mv class to reject all ethical systems wliich make the mondity of human actions dependant upon an extrinsic object, and which regulate them by a contingent principle. Thu.s I would teacli them tliat the rule of human action is not, as some of the ancients held, jdeasure ; nor, as Ilolibs held, fear ; nor, as Paley held, expediency ; nor, as Bentham held, is that rule to be obtained by a balancing of pleasures ; nor is to be found in the positive ordinances of any superior, nor in procuring the greatest happiness for the greatest num- ber, But the morality (the right or the wrong) of human acts is tauglit at JMaynooth to consist in the conformity or non-conformity of tliese acts to tlie eternal and immutable law of God, as that law is notified to man by the dictate of right reason. That any particular act should be morally good or riglit, wo require that it should not be opposed to this law, either as to its object, its circumstances, or its end. If any liuman act should fail to be conformable to this law, under any one of these tlu’ee respects, we pronounce such act wrong and bad, morally. 120. Does the theory of motives come into consideration at all ? — Y"es ; in discussing the finis actus, Ave consider the motives ; we call the motive the finis operantis ; and that any act should be morally good, we hold it to be indisjjensable that the motive of the agent, whether it be the motivnm excitans or determinans, should be good; if the motive be bad, Ave hold that the act is bad. 121. Do you mean by the end the motive? — The end Avhich the agent proposes to him- self in acting, that I call the determining moth^e. 122. What is the object of the act? — The object of the act is altogether distinct from the end or motive. It is used in ethics to designate the materia circa quarn, the matter of the act as apprehended by the intellect. Thus the object of an act of theft AA'ould be the neighbour’s goods, the object of an act of alras-giving Avould be the alms di.stributed to the poor, and so on. If the object of an act be morally bad on any ground Avhatever, either of its own nature, as in the case of perjury, for example, or because of any just positive pro- hibition, the entire act is siinjjly bad. 12.3. Do you distinguish carefully betAA'een the end and the means ? — Yes, 124. What do you teach respecting the end and the means as to Avhat constitutes a good action? — I teach that no action is good Avhich is not good, both as to its means and to its end. Catholic moralists are always careful to enforce the axiom, Bonum cx integra causa, malum ex quocnnque defectu. 125. Would you teach that a good end could not justify the use of bad means, even in an extreme case ? — I hold, that in no case, actual or conceivable, should such doctrine be taught or tolerated, as that a good end may render the use of bad means laAvful, No matter how incalculably good the end, it would be unlawful to employ bad mean.s — even the most venially bad means — to secure it. There is an illustration of this doctrine found in the AAmrks of several Catholic writers. They teach that if it Avere possible that the utterance of the most trivial lie should have the efiect of rescuing from hell all that are and Avill be condemned there, it would be unlaAvful for a Christian to utter the lie even for such an end. 126. Do you point out distinctly to your pupils the difference there is betAveen persons AAdio choose good means to a good end, bad means to a good end, and good means to a bad end ? — I Avould teach that a person Avho Avould cimose bad means to a good end Avould not act laAvfully, so Avould a person choosing good means to a bad end ; but I never set doAVU any general rule for comparing the guilt of one Avith the guilt of the other, and determin- ing Avhich had committed the greatest evil. That probably would be the best knoAvn from the circumstances in Avhich both acted. 127. Are you acquainted Avith Aristotle’s Treatise on Ethics? — I do not yet know the Avhole of it thoroughly. 128. Are you aAvare of the distinction AA'hich he makes in his sixteenth book between those faculties ? — I do not remember it. 129. Suppose a man takes bad means to secure a good end, Avould you teach that that was an intellectual or moral defect ? — If the man be in invincible error concerning the quality of the means AA-hich he employs — that is, if he be so wrong-minded as to fancy that the means are not bad, Avhilst, in reality, they are ; and if he has no suspicion Avhatever that they are bad, Avhj’ then I Avould consider the adoption of them an intellectual rather than a moral defect. But the employraent of bad means Avould arise from a moral defect, when the agent knoAving or suspecting the real character of the means Avould yet use them to bring about the end. 130. It would be a moral defect when he acts knoAvingly? — A"es, as often as he knows that the means are bad, or suspects it. 131. But it might be an intellectual defect if he acted in ignorance? — It Avould not be inore, I apprehend, if he acted in invincible ignorance. 1 32. Would there be no moral evil in that case ? — So far there AA'ouid be no imputable evil, no evil Avhich makes the jjerson so acting in iuA’incible ignorance accountable before God for a malicious act. 133. Suppose he takes good means to secure a bad end? — Then also the act Av’ould be bad ; but the degree of evil should be estimated in that case by the greater or less degree of evil in the means, and by the circumstances in Avhich such means are employed. 134. You teach that no means in themselves bad lose their character by the nature of the object for Avhich they are employed ? — Decidedly, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 147 135. If tlicro are any books of casuistry, and, apparently, cases suggested in tlicni that seem to be at vafiaanco with that doctrine, they are not such as you would countenance in your teaching ? — AVhatcvor is at variance with the doctrine that no means which arc intrin- sically, or in themselves, bad, can become good, or their adoi)tion bo justified by any end, however good — whatever is at variance with that doctrine I would discountenance and condemn. 13(). Do you raise those nice and ])ossiblc extreme cases found in some treatises on ethics in your general instructions to the students, or do you cite them as warnings against the use of extreme cases of casuistry ? — Casuistry does not in any sense belong to my department. In teaching ethics it is not the custom at IMaynooth (either for want of time, or because ethics is understood to bo but a preparation for moral thcoIo£ry) it is not the custom to go beyond an ox[)lanation of some of the general princi])les regarding morality. These are afterwards illustrated in theology. 137. Did you ever hear any person in ^laynooth seriously maintain the doctrine that the end could justify the means? — Never. 138. Does the subject of oaths come into’ your department of teaching — the obligation of an oath? — No; the subject is discussed onl^^ in the Theology Classes at Maynooth. 139. Do you at all refer to the circumstances under which an oath becomes irritant? — Not in my class. 140. Can you explain briefly what are the circumstances under which an oath is held to become irritant ? — A promissory oath is held to lose its binding force when it becomes im- possible to fulfil the promise. It may also happen that a promise which might have been law- fully fulfilled at the time it was made, cannot in course of time, on account of some change in the matter jn-omised, be fulfilled without sin. In that case such promissory oath ceases to bind. If a promissory oath be taken in favour of an individual, the individual in whose favour it has been taken, may per se render the oath irritant — that is, he may render it irritant, if there be no positive law or enactment to prohibit him from doing so. The obli- gation of an oath may also be relaxed by a dispensation given by a person having compe- tent power. For the validity of such dispensation, a just cause is always necessary — nor can a dispensation be validly given, which would prejudice the rights of a third party. 141. Do you hold that an oath cannot be relaxed by a third party, without the consent of the person in whose behalf the oath has been taken ?— I hold that no oath can be relaxed to the prejudice of the party in whose behalf it was taken — even by the Pope. 142. And that is the doctrine which you have yourself received from other parties? — Yes. 143. And that you have found to be the prevalent doctrine in the course of the studies that you have pursued ? — That is the common doctrine. 144. Y^ou have stated that the same books were not used at St. Jarlath’s and at May- nooth — will you now state what books were used there ? — The text books were the same, but the books of reference are much more numerous at Maynooth than they were at St. Jarlath’s. 145. Do you take occasion in your lectures to distinguish by some certain criterion between spirituals and temporals? — It never falls within my province to do so. 14G. So far as you are acquainted with the principles taught and maintained in the College, is the principle that the Pope has no right to interfere directly or indirectly in any matter of a civil or temporal nature maintained there ?- — It so happened that I never heard the question discussed in class at Maynooth. 147. Is it not made a matter of discussion in the schools ? — In the Theology schools it may sometimes be discussed, but the discussion may also be sometimes omitted for want of time, or because the question is not considered to be of much practical moment. 148. Y"ou have passed through those schools, have you not? — Yes; but the question was not introduced formally during the year in which I happened to be reading the trea- tise De Ecclesia. 149. And are you aware of the doctrine that has been laid doAvn upon that point? — Whatever knowledge I possess of the subject has been derived mainly, if not exclusively from my private reading. 150. Y'ou are acquainted, are you not, with the proposition laid down by Dr. Delahogue, in his treatise De Ecclesia ? — I am. 151. IIow do you understand it? — ^I understand from it, that the sphere of the Pope’s power is restricted to the spiritual. 152. Y"ou would therefore teach that the Pope has no authority to absolve from an oath which has reference to teni])orals ? — I would teach that the Pope cannot absolve from such an oath, in the sense in which a creditor, for example, may absolve a debtor from the obligation of paying some debt. But I would not teach, that in circumstances under which such an oath, antecedently to any decision of the Pope, should have become irritant ah intrinseco, and by virtue of the natural law — in such a case, I would hold that the Pope, as the guardian and expositor of sound morahty, would be em 2 >owered to declare that the oath had actually lost its binding force. 153. Y"ou would, therefore, give to the Pope a declaratory power? — Y"es. 154. If he declared -wrongly, on whom would the responsibility fall? — When a party whose office or profession it is to give doctrinal decisions — to declare, for instance, the existence or non-existence of an obligation — -ndien such a party declares wrongly, he incurs the responsibility of making reparation for any injury that may result from his decision. u 2 Octobrr, ]{ev. -Will. .Jennings. Oi)j)osite doctrine discountenanced and conileinned. Casuistry evcludod from ethical teaching. Cases in which an oatli ceases to bind. No oatli can be relaxed to the pre- judice of the part}' in whose behalf it was taken — not even by the Pope. Declaratory potv er of the Pope as to the binding obligation of oaths. Effect of such declaration by the Pope. 148 MAY^’OOTIl COMMISSION. 14f/i October, 1853. 12 . liov. Wm. Jennings. Infallibility in temporals not im- plied in this doctrine. Supposed case of the Pope declaring oath of allegiance void. Absurdity of such a decision would deprive itof all value. Case of I’ius V. and Queen Elizabeth. Conditions necessary to make such a decision of weight. (H)Ii'jrntion involving tlie rights of third persons cannot be dissolved witliout their consent. Idecapitulation of witness’s opinions on foregoing points. A party acting upon the tvrong declaration of the Pope in the case supposed, would also he responsible— if he had any reasonable ground for suspecting its justness. 15,5. You would feel yourself entitled to exercise your own judgment upon that point? — If the Pope actually undertook to give a decision, I would be satisfied of its equity. 150. If so, it would bind you or any one? — I W'ould consider myself perfectly safe in following it, and I should act upon it. 157. Would the decision of the Pope free you from responsibility to a higlier power ? If I had reason to doubt the extent of any moral duty or responsibility, 1 would accept a formal declaration of the Pope as a sure guide on the subject; and if I regulated my con- duct by that declaration, 1 would consider that 1 had so far discharged my responsibility. 158. Docs not that imply the doctrine of the Pope’s infallibility in temporal matters? No — not to my mind. If the judges of England and Ireland all concurred in a certain interpretation of a statute, though I might not consider them infallible, I would consider myself acting foolishly and ridiculously, if I attempted to contravene their decision, or if 1 refused to abide by it. 159. Supj)ose the Pope declared, that in consequence of the Queen refusing her consent to a very beneficial measure, the oath of allegiance was void — that the matter of the oath was so changed by her conduct, as to render void the oath of allegiance, would you not feel bound to exercise your own judgment ?^ — I would admit such an imaginary hypothesis as the one proposed only" in the abstract. If the Pojte acted so absurdly", his decision would be of no value. If a learned body of mathematicians, in their sound senses, seriously proposed a theory that two and two do not make four, it would, I conceive, be a somewhat parallel case of the exercise of one’s own judgment. 160. But the Pope has done so before now, and therefore it is a supposable case ; you are aw"are of the celebrated bull in Queen Elizabetli’s reign ? — It would not be difficult to point out a difference between the two cases. The circumstances under which you suppose Pius the Ninth to excommunicate Queen Victoria, and to declare her subjects absolved from their oath of allegiance, bear no resemblance to the circumstances under which the'bullot Pius the Fifth appeared in England. I Avould regard such a sentence coming from Pius the Ninth as utterly null and void ; but I believe also, that the supposition of his issuing such a sentence, is a most fanciful and extreme case of casuistry 1 believe that whenever the Pope undertakes to issue a decision of weighty moment, it will be marked by the con- ! ditions reejuired for a law — I believe that it will be honesta, justa, secundum naturam, loco temporique conveniens, necessaricX, utilis, nullo private commodo, sed j)ro communi utilitate conscripta. 161. Without these conditions the mandate would not be binding ? — I w'ould be unwilling to admit, except as an abstract hypothesis, an imaginary case, that the Pope w"ould sub- stantially violate those conditions, and act in the extravagant manner supposed by tlie questions put to me. If we make that imaginary case, and suppose in it that the Pope i grants the dispensation without just cause, the dispensation would be utterly null and i void. I 162. Does it form any* part of your teaching, that an oath which involves the rights of a | third person, cannot be the subject of a dispensation or aljsolution at all ? — The subject of oaths, or dispensations from oaths, does not, as I mentioned, form a part of my | teaching. i 163. It does not form any part of your course? — No. | 164. Although a decision of tlie Pope, absolving from the oath of allegiance to the Queen, ' would not be in its nature infallible, would it have a binding effect u])on the actions of individuals? — Certainly not. But, again, I consider the case put as fanciful and practically irrelevant. 165. That the Pope exceeds his jurisdiction ? — No : not simply that ; but that the Pope j exercising his office of guardian and authoritative exjionent of the moral law, should act | so extravagantly as to expound the duties and obligations of the Queen’s sul jects by" declaring that they owed her no allegiance. 166. If there be an obligation by an oath or a contract, which involves the rights of persons, do not you hold, that that oath, or contract, cannot be dissolved by any jiower without the consent of the party who Avould be prejudiced ? — I do, decidedly. 167. Do you hold with respect to the oath of allegiance, in which the sovereign’s rights are concerned, that that oath cannot be dissolved upon the principle I have mentioned? — Certainly: no oath can be dissolved by* the Pope, to the prejudice of a beggar or a sovereign. 168. " You rely upon the discretion of tlie Pope, that even in temporal matters he will not exercise his authority unreasonably ? — If 1 had reason to doubt the extent of any moral obligation arising from temporal matters, I would look upon an authoritative declaration of the Pope as the safest and best guide to inform me of tlie real extent of that obligation, and I would follow that declaration. 169. A'ou conceive that the Pope is infallible in temporal matters? — No; I do not. 170. If so, he maybe mistaken in temporal matters, may he not? — Undoubtedly* he may be mistaken in temporal matters. 171. But y"ou will follow him, whether mistaken or not, in temporal matters? — I have had no intention of saying any* thing which could at all lead to such an inference. In my previous answers I wished merely to convey this : first, that where any duty or obligation of mine is clearly defined, that I am bound to discharge. My duty regarding the oath of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 149 allegiance to tlio sovereign is clear and unmistakable ; and in the imaginary hypothesis tliat the I’ope would, to-morrow, declare me absolved from that oath, 1 would regard the declaration as absurd, and of no value. 1 wonld consider myself as much bound by the oath as if such an unjust declaration had never been issued. Secondly, if I had reason to justify me in doubting the extent or existence of any moral obligation arising from tempo- ral matters, 1 would consider that an authoritative decision of the Pope, as the represen- tative of Christ, was the highest, and safest, and best decision that I could bo guided l)y or ])rocure. But I by no means intend that it should be deduced or deducible from this that I consider the Pope or the Church infallible in temporals. I consider that 1 would be following a safe and sure guide in following a decision of the Pope in reference to a moral obligation re.sulting from temporal matters, just as I would be secure in following an unani- mous decision of the legal authorities of the country upon a point of law ; but this is very far from implying that the Poj)e is infallible in temporal matters. 172. One of the professors, u])on a former occasion, used these words — “ 1 never knew it to be considered lawful to violate the oath of allegiance, in consecpxence either of a dis- ])eusation from tlie Pope or from a general council, or from any power upon earth.” Do you concur in that declaration? — 1 entirely concur in it. 173. Did you ever read of any case, in the present generation, in which the Pope or any other ecclesiastical authority released any subject from any oath or engagement to a tliird {>erson without the consent of that third person, either by declaring it void by change of circumstances or otherwise? — No, I have never heard of such a case. 174. Have you ever heard the f|ucstion discussed among the students, whether the Pope has the power of absolving from the oath of allegiance or not? — 'fhe students are all under the conviction, as far as I know, that the Pope has no such power. Have you ever heard any thing to the contrary maintained at iMaynooth ? — No. 176. You have no reason to apprehend that a contrary principle is inculcated or credited there? — 1 am cjuite sui’e it is not. [_The Vn'itaess tvithdreiv^ The Rev. Daniel M-Carthy, examined. 1. You are Professor of Rhetoric at Jlayuooth, are you not? — Yes, I am. 2. What arc the Commissioners to understand by the term rhetoric ? — As far as the word designates the professorship I hold, it would be difficult to define it exactly ; as regards its meaning, when applied to art, perhaps it would be more difficult still to point out its strict signification, being understood differently by different writers, ancient and modern, and sometimes in a more or less restricted sense by the same writer at different times. I think the view of Dr. Whatcly sufficiently correct, when lie lays down that the province of rhetoric, in its widest acceptation, comprehends “ all composition in jirose;” in its strictest sense, “ the art of inventing and arranging arguments,” or “the means of persuasion,” which 1 prefer. I am sure the Commissioners desire to know rather what is meant by rhetoric as applied to my class, and the best idea of the title would be obtained from the course of last year, which I have described already. 3. Are you a professor of language as such, or is your department philosophical ? — I am professor of language, as such principally. 4. What is the language of your lectures ? — I always lecture in English. 5. Do your pupils translate orally into English the books upon which you lecture ? — They ai’e exercised both in oral translations and in written translations from some ancient author. They are also frequently exercised in composition in Greek and Latin — Latin or Greek translations from the English language. G. How often do they translate from classical authors into English prose ? — The prac- tice is to give alternately a composition in Greek and Latin, and in English : so that by giving one composition each week, they give a written translation from some classical author once in three weeks. 7. Do you attend to the spelling of the English in those written compositions? — Cer- tainly. 8. Can you find time to correct the exercises? — No one, not intimately acquainted with the vast labour required in the performance of that duty, can estimate the study and patience it exacts from the professor. The time devoted to the correction of compositions sometimes exceeds that of attendance in class each week. I am supposed to read every composition in private, to note the defects, &c., and I often do so, though not always. Indeed it is difficult, I admit, to give all the attention I should wish to this department. 9. Do you find it frequently necessary to correct the spelling of the English ? — I must distinguish between the different periods of the year. In the commencement there are some students, who in particular cases, and as to particular words of special difficulty, fall into mistakes ; but towards the end of each year, there are very few who fall into any mis- takes — not more than two in my class who, at the close of the year have not corrected the defects to which I direct their attention. Of course I frequently warn those particularly against bad spelhng, and suggest the means that are usually recommended, such as reading and transcribing approved authors; and I also point out, particularly to those deficient in that IK/j Octohfr, lfi.53. liT llev. Win. Jt'iinidgs. 13. Itev. D. Jl'Carthy. ^feaning of the term Khetoric. English the class language. Class exercises. Compositions. Spelling. Correction of the exercises. Attention to the spelling of the exercises. 150 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. l-Wi October, ISO.*). Rev. I). M'Cartliy. Greek and Latin dictionaries used. Dictionaries pos- sessed by tile students. Duty of seeing that' students arc provided ■with lexicons does not devolve upon any of the College authorities. The only rule as regards the posses- sion of books is with respect to the Bible. Text-book alone used in class. Ko arrangement for supplies of books to students. respect, the necessity of their ohsen’ing great caution, and doubting even every word, because too often they are not conscious of the defect in their own regard. 10. What dictionaries do you use in Greek and in Latin ? — In Greek, the Etymologicon klagnum, Stephens’ Thesaurus, Scapula, Ewing, Hedericus (by Morell), Donnegan, Ilincks, Liddell and Scott; Prosodial Lexicons, as Brasse, Morell; and others that refer to particular dialects or works, as, Damm’s Lexicon Ilomericum, Lexicon Ponicum, by Portus, Butt- mann's Lexilogus, Parkhurst, (by Rose) on the New Testament, Bagster, Bloomfield, the Greek primitives, and other works which could not well he called dictionaries, I understand the questions of my own hooks. 1 1. Do you mean the Port Royal edition? — Yes. 1 2. Has every student of your class a Greek dictionary of some kind or other ? — I have no authority over the students to make any inquiry on the subject ; but I suppose it is essen- tial that they should, because, for instance, one of the exercises that I give to the students is to write Greek in class and to translate it. I select a passage from Plato, from the Memo- rabilia of Zenophon, from St. Chrysostom, or any other Greek author : I read this in Greek in class, and require the written text, and also a written translation. It is necessary, therefore, if tlie students do not understand the meaning of a particular word, to consult a lexicon ; and many, it is clear, could not use the same book : what is more, their time being limited, and the exercise sometimes long and difficult, no one could well wait for the convenience of another student, or otherwise receive any aid from him in my presence, I suppose, in such circumstances, it is very difficult to perform this duty properly without a lexicon — one for each student. I have no other means of judging. 13. Within whose department would it come to ascertain who had or who had not a Greek lexicon ? — It would, perhaps, not ho the duty of any particular person : of course it would be my duty to see that my pupils prepared themselves properly for the class. I never inquire as to the means by which they do so ; I have no authority in this respect. 14. Would not the subject of the books which every student possesses come under the cognizance of the dean ? — It is the dean's duty to see that they keep no books dangerous to morality oi’ religion ; but his duty ends there. Except a copy of the Bible, and a few reli- gious books that arc supplied at entrance, I do not know that it is the duty of any one in the College to supj^ly the students with books, or to ascertain ■what books they should have. They were supplied, until wdthin the last year or two, with certain class-books, but those being now removed from the College course, and no special class-books being yet printed, they are not supplied with books as before. 15. The business of the deans is rather to ascertain the character of the books which the students have in their possession — not to ascertain defects ?• — -Yes, they are bound to exa- mine very minutely the character of the books any student has ; they are not hound to see what books any student should have. The only rule regards the Bible, and in that respect it is strict. The bursar inquires of cver}^ student at entrance, if he has a Bible ; and if he says “Yes,” the bursar docs not ])rovide him -with one; but then he gives his name to the dean, and it is the dean’s duty to inquire ; if he says “ No,” a copy is given him at a reduced price. 16. If a student enters for the Rhetoric Class, is examined, and is admitted into the Rheto- ric Class, is it not i-equired that he should possess certain books to enable liim to pursue his studies in the Rhetoric Class ? — In order to pursue his studies with advantage, he must possess the ordinary aids ; but he is not asked directly Avhether he does so or no. There is on other obligation except to prepare himself in the business of the class. It is the duty of the professor to see that he is properly prepared, and not to inquire as to the means he has of preparing himself. Should one student use the books of another in studying for class, the professor may never hear of it, nor would he interfere though he did. 17. Does not every student bring a book with him to the lecture? — Yes, a text-book, but no dictionary. I have mentioned already the few exceptions in which exercises are ■un-itten in class. As a general rule the class hour is devoted entirely to interrogation and to exposition on the part of the professor, whether in a viva voce lecture, or in reading some passages from the best authorities — always connected immediately with the subject treated of at the time. Every student attends in class, it is supposed, fully prepared to be interrogated, and ho knows tlie professor would object to the use of a lexicon during the time of class. If not interrogated, he attends to the questions put to his fellow-student, to the answers given, and to the corrections of the j)rofessor. In short, the bare text, without note or comment of any kind, is often recommended by the professor for use in class; and should he suspect undue advantage to bo taken, he might and would insist on the use of that alone. 1 8. If you lecture in “ Cicero de Oratore,” for instance ? — Every student must have a copy of the text. It is possible, however, two might use the same book. 19. There is no arrangement by which the student can obtain these books from the College at the trade price ? — No. 20. He has to furnish himself with them as he can ? — Yes. 21. There is no arrangement, as in the ordinary schools, to supply the students with l)Ooks if they wish to purchase them ? — No ; in some cases, when I thought it useful to introduce a new text-book, never before read in the College, I have found it necessary to suggest means by which they could provide themselves with the requisite number of copies — referring the students, for instance, to a particular bookseller, or recommending a particular edition ; but, except in such circumstances, to convenience myself to some ^IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 151 extent, and to remove any difficulty which the students — dreading every thing new and unknown as more difficult — might raise on the ground of not being able to get text-books, I have never regarded it as a part of my duty, nor that of any other ])rofessor, to provide copies of works for the use of my class, or to adopt any means necessary for that end. 22. Do you proscribe the editions of the work of an author at the same time that you adopt him in the course? — I ])rcscribo a text-book and recommend the best editions. 23. Would you recommend a ])articular edition of Virgil, or a particular edition of Cicero ? — Yes ; 1 do so always. 1 recommend the best editions I know of, and even the best translations. With regard to the autliors named, for instance — 1 told the students of my class often that I thought Forbiger's Adrgil, edition of 1845, the most useful 1 was acquainted with, and Greenwood’s Cicero do Oratore (London, 1838), with the Dolphin notes, a valuable work also. I have referred to both as the text-books 1 use myself. 24. You do not allow them to bring to the lecture books with notes? — At the examina- tions 1 use one book Avithout note of any kind, and I examine every student I'rom the same copy. I point out a particular passage — selecting it, sometimes, on account of some special dilHculty — to test the ability and industry of the student during the year, because 1 may have taken more pains to explain the context and meaning in that chapter. 25. In lecturing upon the Georgies of Virgil would you allow a student to bring the Delphin edition with him, with very full notes, and a paraphrase at the side? — No ; not at the examinations, but in the class I could not Avell prevent the use of it. I must add, however, it appears to mo very difficult to profit much by such use when called in class. I can observe, at once, any hesitation ; and if ever I do so, I insist on the rise of another text-book. Interlinear Avritten notes are more aA'^ailable — suggesting the proper ansAver, and exempting from the necessity of impressing the subject on the memory. 26. Are you aware Avhether your students possess English translations ? — I knoAV they do. 27. Would the deans object to them if they found them ? — No. 28. The possession of a good English translation Avill sometimes be of service in improA'- ing their English corajAOsition, Avill it not ? — Yes ; requiring, as I do, a Avritten translation prepared during the hours of study; and in my absence, therefore, I have to provide myself Avith every translation in English of the classic I happen to be reading, othei’AA'ise I could not be certain that a student giving me a Avritten composition might not borroAV. I must read them often Avith care for the same reasons, and thus be Avell acquainted AAuth their merits, anti I recommend the best translations as I do the best editions. 29. You ha\'e mentioned as one of your class-books Aristotle’s lihetoric; do you lecture upon his rhetoric in Greek ? — Yes, from the Greek te.xt. I explain the Greek text in English, by referring to all the authors that I am acquainted Avith on the subject, both ancient and modern, particularly to the works of Cicero, of Quintilian, and of Dr. Whatcly, whoso treatise I take to be more connected Avith that of Aristotle — the arrangement and the matter being much the same in both. There are so many allusions in Dr. AVhately’s work to that of Aristotle that it seems to have been designed as a commentary rather than as an original Avork, embodying all that is A^aluable in it, and illustrating the most obscure parts very happily, 1 think, excejit Avhere Avithout necessity he deserts his proper subject. 30. Do you use Aristotle’s lihetoric as an exercise in Greek as Avell as an exercise in the matter it contains ? — Both. Firstly, as a text-book, it is translated literally Avith expo- sitions of the idiom, the structure of the sentences, &c. Secondly, it is explained as a rhetorical manual, containing the best system of rules ever knoAvn, among the ancients at least : for example, in the third book, the student Avill be asked to explain Avhat is the metaphor, wdiat is its meaning, comparing the origin of the Avord Avith its Latin rendering; and when it is direct, Avhen indirect or analogical, and Avhy the latter is more perfect and more ingenious ; AAhy it is more peculiar to prose than to poetry, and Avhy Aristotle calls it the proper ornament of the former. Again, he Avill be expected to know the rules for the use of metaphor, and the reason of them, as laid doAvn by Aristotle — hoAV Ave are to vary the sources Avhence Ave derive them — that they should not be farfetched, should be drawn fi’om beautiful objects, &c. &c. 31. Do you ask them for passages occasionally to illustrate the definitions and descrip- tions of Aristotle ? — I rarely ask them to cite a passage from their oaaui reading. 32. In Avhat way do you use Aristotle’s Ehetoric ? — First as a Greek book, to be translated into English. I call on each student to account for the application of the different Avords, the order of the sentences, the peculiarities of the style, the conjugations of verbs, and the declensions, as I should use any other school book. And, moreover, 1 also aid them in explaining the different precepts of rhetoric as I have stated in reply to the last question, and other allusions that are incidental to logic particularly, a knoAvledge of Avhich is essential to understand that treatise. AVhat Aristotle says of the rhetorician, that to master his subject, he must be Avell acquainted with dialectics, can be applied to the art of rhetoric, as taught by himself — to understand it requires a general and often a minute knowledge of logic. For instance, his definitions of i:rayw'y?), Trapdcftypa, and the distinc- tion betAA^een them — again the tvTBvni^jxa defined to be an oratorical syllogism which is unintelligible unless the student knows AA'hat is meant by a syllogism. I ask Avhat is the reason A\hy the enthymeme is called an oratorical syllogism, or AA'hy it is more peculiar to the orator than to the logician, and more striking, though not more persuasive, than the example. 33. Do you go through the entire of Aristotle’s Ehetoric with the class? — Not every year. I always read the first book treating of the connexion between logic and rhetoric, the different kinds of oratory, deliberative, demonstrative, and judicial, the sources AAffience Uth October, 1853. Kev. D. Jl'Carthy. Editions recom- mended. Editions used in class. Use of translations. Aristotle’s Rhetoric. Used both as an exercise in Greek and ill the matter it contains. Method of its use. Portions of Aristotle's Rhetoric read. 152 MAYXooTii co.m:\iissiox. lith October, 185:1 Hvr. D. M‘C'/!)// also ; omitting only the descriptions and divisions of yrd/jurn, and their utility; the general topics regarding possibility, amplifica- tion, &c. 37. What time do you devote to the rhetoric of Aristotle in your lectures ? — I read la.st year, before Christmas, Aristotle’s Rhetoric, and a part of the De Corona of Demosthenes, as Greek texts. The greater part of tho period was occupied with the rhetoric of Aristotle. I brought in the other work for the purpose of illustrating many of the precepts, and also of making my pupils familiar with the greatest oration in any language. Knowing that many of tho students have never read the speeches of Demosthenes, I am anxious to direct their attention to them, though I cannot hope to give a perfect knowledge of them within so short a time. 38. So tliat you are able to finish the course devoted to the studyof Aristotle’s Rhetoric in about three months? — Yes, what I read. I do not read in the third book the chapters rrepl rd^scoc, because wc treat of that subject in reading Quintilian ; and 1 think his rules more perfect and more fully explained than those given by Aristotle, or perliaps any other writer. 39. Do you commence your lectures in tho Rhetoric Class with the treatise of Aristotle ? — Sometimes I have left it for the last part of the year, and sometimes I have commenced witli it. I tliink, as a general rule, it would be better to commence with it: although the matter is difficult and too profound for young men whose minds arc not yet formed to habits of deep study, yet the rules arc very useful, and the language is very simple. 40. You have stated that you lecture in the second book of Thucydides ? — Yes. 41. Are all the students in your class capable of construing, with tolerable accuracy, a speech in Thucydides ; take the speech of Pericles, for instance, in the second book? — There are very few who, without preparation, could translate some passages in Thucydides. I speak from experience, and I have no difficulty in asserting that there are few, if any, Greek writers, more full of meaning, more elliptical, and consequently more obscure. With the aids students have, there arc not more, I suppose, than five or six wdio would find any difficulty in construing any chapter in Thucydides — that is, ascertaining the meaning of the context — not accurately, of course, or in its whole bearing, but generally, and where there is no special obscurity : many would understand it almost as perfectly as 1 could, with the same amount of study and the same ordinary aids. ~ 42. Without the help of a lexicon ? — Xo : but with the ordinary aids which students generally apply. 43. Could they do so without the lielp of a translation ? — There is a large number of students wlio could, with the aid of a lexicon, and without any translation, under- stand a great part of every chapter; but the idioms in Thuej'dides are remarkable for being extremely difficult : these occur very frequently, making a critical and verbal study of that author a task of vast labour ; requiring, moreover, an accurate knowledge of his- tory; so that 1 think a student must possess more than ordinary ability, who, with no aid but his le.xicon, could arrive at a fair interpretation of every paragraph in Thucydides. I do not say that any student would catch the meaning of every sentence, even as Dr. Arnold has cxpi-essed it, or see the full force of an expression which a ripe scholar, after compar- ing many versions, might approve ; but that they would substantially understand the entire chapter, and be able to follow the course of the histoiy and the substance of the narrative, with the aid of a lexicon. 44. Do you take an opportunity to point out the application of the precepts in Aristotle, when you analyze, for instance, those speeches in Thucydides ? — I generally refer to motlern compositions rather than to the works of the ancients, except with regard to the speeches of Demosthenes and ^Eschines of the Greek orators. The matter must be well understood to appreciate the merits of any discourse. I could not read much of Aristotle without learning this important principle, and the matter of an oration, clothed in the MINUTKS OF FVIDENCF. l/i3 languapfo of Tlmcydide^, often very ol)SCure, ean never l>e familiar to tlio young student who works Ids way witli his Lexicon and translation. T select, on this account, ])assages from modern writers generally. At the same time, I do refer to those speeclies, for they contain almost the only specimens left us of the oratory of that age, in otlier branches of literature, the most spleiulid in the history of (Ireece. I refer to tliem, also, because they have been ])raised by all the critics, ancient and modern, who have cited them, as the finest models of eloquence of the highest order. 45. For instance, you have examj)les of demonstrative and deliberative oratory in the second book? — Yes, the s])eeches of Arebidamus and I’hortnian, and the speech of J’ericles, encouraging the Athenians to maintain their former dignity against the aggression of Lacedtemon, by placing before tbeni the result of victory and defeat, afibrd us exam]>les of deliberative oratory. 1 could not illustrate tlie demonstrative oratory as the term is used in the Rhetoric by the orations found in Thucydides. It occurs to me there is no c.xample of demonstrative oratory in the second book of Thucydides. 'I'he declamations of debating societies would bo instances of this kind, as dcscril)od by Aristotle. 46. A ])anegyrical speech would come under the division of “ demonstrative,” would it not? — Not entirely. The j)anegyric may have for its object, not the ability of the speaker — the great end of demonstrative oratory — but tlie merits of a victorious general. For instance : should it be of piddic importance to know' the character of that general, though the orator should dwell, in an assembly of tlie people, on his past victories alone, the discourse would be, in trutb, a panegyric, not, however, an example of demonstrative oratory ; because here the object, tbe sole object of the speaker, is to display his own ability. Quintilian has justly observed this distinction, on the authority of Aristotle, Quod genus videtur Aristoteles a parte negotiali removisse, et id ejus nominis, quod ab ostentatione ducitur, propriuin est and again “ sed mihi tiriien^riKoy non tarn demonstra- tionis quam ostentationis vim habere videtur, et multum ab illo tykupiuaTUM ditferere.” Aristotle himself lays down expressly that tbe whole end of demonstrative oratory regards the decision of the unconcerned spectator as to the powers of the orator, v ce k-ph'uy rrepl ->]c oyra/uwe, o OeiopoQ. 47. Are not the tTron'ocand -^oyoQ connected w'ith the demonstrative? — The censure and praise — both ; the main object being still, not tbe proof of any assertion, nothing more tlian the ability of the speaker; I can conceive a demonstrative oration without either: for example, let the theme be the mere legal question, “Did Demosthenes, in the celebrated oration on the ‘ Crown,’ cite the law fairly?” the end being, not so much to ascertain the truth, as to test the eloquence and show' forth the talent of the speakers. 1 would class the discourses under the head of demonstrative oratory as understood by Aristotle. Such literary contests were, W'C know from history, very frequent in ancient Greece. Exhibitions of this kind w'ere as usual at the Olympic games as the gymnastic exercises. Even the greatest poets deemed it the highest honour to win the prizes at these national festivals. I am of opinion, then, that praise and censure arc mentioned by Aristotle as the end of the demonstrative orator, not because they were exclusively so, but because the panegyric was selecteel as the stylo best suited to oratorical display. This is the reason w'hich Cicero gives for the origin of the Greek word, “ quod Greece tirihikTucuy nominatur quod quasi ad iuspiciendum, delectationus causa comparatum est.” 48. Do you consider that division of Aristotle into deliberative, judicial, and demonstra- tive, to be an exhaustive division? — 1 think it is a very perfect division of the different kinds of eloquence, distributed according to tlie different occasions in which it was applied in Greece. 49. If a speech could not be classed under the judicial or deliberative (the deliberative having for its object the promotion of the ])ublic w'eal, and the judicial having for its object the discovery of truth with regard to judicial proceedings), it would, I ])resume, be classed under the demonstrative? — Yes; I conceive, at the same time, that a panegyric, hai'ing for its end some ]iractical improvement at present, or at a future period, might be reduceil to the deliberative : for instance, the very purpose which you suppose a demonstrative speech to be used for, namely, that of recommending the character of a ])artioular states- man, that w'ould bring it more properly under the deliberative, if the main object of the speaker was to show' that the measures of that statesman were such that they deserved public attention, and his character such that he was worthy of public confidence, though the whole matter of the speech was in praise of that statesman. It is true, we speak commonly of the epideiktic and demonstrative oratory as equivalent to panegyrics, though such use is not sanctioned by tiie pliilosophical division of Aristotle, liaving dis- tinct members, no one embracing the other. If tlie main pui-port of demonsti’ative oratory be not to show exclusively the ability of the speaker, 1 do not understand how' the deliber- ative w'ill not include the demonstrative. 50. Y"ou lecture on the “Agricola” of Tacitus, do you not? — A"es, I do. Ills life of Agricola is included in the course of last year. The books I have referred to are not those always read in class ; I lecture on the “Annals” of Tacitus, on the “Germany” of Tacitus, and on the “Dialogue De Oratore” ascribed to him. 51. In reading the “A«ricola” of Tacitus, do you refer at all to that work in connexion with the illustrations of the ancient geography of the British islands ? — Certainly, Any allusions to that subject are attended to always. Tlie ancient geography, as described by Tacitus, is explained very satisfactorily, in the edition of Dr. William Smith, editor of the dictionaries of Greek and Roman antiquities, and of ancient biography and mythology. In his work, the particular situations of the different tribes in A'onh and X nth October, is,',;!. TiT llev. 1). .M'Cartliy. JNloclc of te.icliiiif'. ‘ ‘ Agricola” of Tacitus. Its connexion with the ancient geo- gr.aphy of the British islands. 154 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. 14t/i Octoher, 1853. i3. Rev. D. M'Carthy. Longinus. How far mastered l)y students. Latin dictionaries. Translation from dictation in class. Written exercises. South M'ales, and the several districts brought under subjection by the Roman arras, are described very correctly. I recomraend the work of Dr. Smith as suited to young students. I do not confine my expositions to the matter contained in the notes of any one commen- tator. I collect information from all the sources within my reach, and I explain my own views with as much accuracy as I can to the students in class. 52. Do you wish to add to your list of books the Treatise of Longinus on the .Sublime? — Yes; the list of works read last year, which I i'ltended to submit, would not be complete otherwise. 53. Are the students in your class capable of mastering the language of Longinus ? — The structure and the wmrJs appear, at first sight, rather difficult to the students ordin- arily, but when they become acquainted with the style of that writer, and when their atten- tion is directed to the circumstance that most of the words, though apparently strange, are not so in reality — because compound words are those that appear most difficult in Longinus — the separate parts of which are common in every writer — then they learn with great ease what seemed, at first sight, very obscure. Show the parts of every word, giving thereby a clue to its precise signification, as used by Longinus, and it becomes simple enough when explained in this way. 54. You have not stated what Latin dictionaries you make use of? — No; I use Stephens’ Latin Thesaurus, Ainsworth, Holyoke, Freund, Facciolati, Valpy’s Etymological Dictionary, and other works which could not be properly termed dictionaries, though they serve as such, and are often more useful. I speak of my own hooks, exclusively, not of those to which I may have access in the public library, or in the collections of my colleagues. 55. Can you state whether it is the fact or not that every student has a Latin die*- tionary of some kind or other in his possession ? — -I can only give the same reasons I gave before. As an exercise in class, I take a passage from some poet which I am sure the students could not have read previously ; I read it in Latin in the class, and require a written translation, with allusions to the particular corrections that might be required as to the metre principally ; for example, if there be any variations from the general rules for the construction of this kind of verse. I ask which line is most perfect, and why ? and which most deficient, and why ? and sometimes, to test their knowledge of prosody, I change a word, inserting one of the same number of syllables, with the penultima short, instead of one that has the penultima long. I can not understand how any student could jirepare such an exercise without the aid of a dictionary. It is true I can not infer, for certain, that each student is provided with his own dictionary, though I think it very probable. 56. Do you ever give advice to any particular individual student as to supplying deficiencies that may be apparent, or encouraging those who have particular talents ? — Yes, I have many opportunities of doing so, of which I avail myself frequently. Every student’s name is inserted in his composition. If any student deserves to be encouraged particularly, I may express my satisfaction in a marked way, after reading his com- position, Avithout mentioning his name. To incite him sometimes to greater exertion, or others to emulation, I announce the Avriter’s name publicly in class. On the other hand, Avhen it becomes my duty to reprove Avhat could not he said Avith ])ro2Driety at a private interview Avith the student, ma}^ be said often, AA'ith effect, of the unknown Avriter, Avithout Avoundlng his feelings. 1 have spoken in private to students in some fcAV instances, : AAdieu such admonition Avas necessary. j 57. Do you recommend the use of particular books occasionally? — Certainly, on every subject. I have no difficulty in referring to the best translations and the best editions — those j Avhich they, of course, could, Avith their means, supply themselves Avith. There are few Avorks i of note in the English language connected Avith classical literature, either history, antiqui- j ties, or grammar, from which I have not read passages occasionally, more for the purpose , of making them knoAvn to the class than for the value of the dissertation I cited. 58. Is it your practice, occasionally, to dictate portions, either of a Greek or Latin ; author, Avhich you are not lecturing upon, and then to take your class by surprise, by ; requiring them to bring you a translation into English prose on the next occasion ? — Yes; , every year — during the class even. It is not that they have an opportunity of preparing the translation Avhen they choose; they prepare in class, Avhere I can observe Avhether any student gets aid from another. 59. IIow often is that done during lecture ? — Not more than four or five times every year. One or two exercises in Greek of that kind, and one in Latin, and this with refe- rence to the particular object I mentioned already. There is scarcely any Latin prose Avhich most of our students could not translate Avith great ease Avith the aid of a dictionary, j and Avithout aii}" aid AvhateAmr, generally. The most talented of the students— those who | get premiums — Avould be able to translate any ordinary ]Aassage in any poet. The great j object, then, of the Latin exercise — the only one, indeed, 1 pro])Ose to myself — is to ascer- I tain that they are perfectly acquainted Avith the rules of prosody and Latin verse. Hence | this test is applied more commonly to ascertain their proficiency in the Greek language. ' Co. The object of my question Avas to ascertain how often you made the students AA’rite upon a subject that you suggested or dictated ? — I have explained that I give one exercise i every Aveek ; one in Greek, this Aveek, one in Latin, the next, then an English translation, and so on, alternately. There is scarcely a Aveek in the year, except some short time before the examination, in Avhich the students do not write on some subject. 61. What is done individually between yourself and the students when that exercise is performed ? — HaA'ing read these compositions in private, and corrected them, 1 I'cad some I MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 155 of them in public. The first thing to he done is to aecertain Avhether any student in tlio class might not have omitted to give mo the written e.xercise. 1 first ascertain that, I then read the exercises in my room, correct them, and afterwards read them in the class, with the corrections that I have made, and suggesting others that may occur to me, where I think them necessary; announcing or suppressing the name as 1 think proper. 02. Upon the first occasion tliat it occurs in your class, what do you do ? — Suppose T select a ])assage from some Uoman history, 1 dictate at one class ten or twelve lines in English from that work. Tlie students take the dictate to their rooms, and prepare the translation during the usual study hours. They come to me at the next class and give me the written compositions in Latin or Greek as the case may be. 1 take those translations to my room, first ascertaining whether there he any wanting, secondly whether any of the translations have been transcril>ed from those of their fellow-students. I endeavour to cor- rect as well as J can all the defects, whether they regard the collocation of words, tlie propriety of expression, the rules of syntax — often comparing one essay with another. I read them as soon as possible in class, first as they have been given to me, and secondly, with my corrections, stating the reasons and the general rules. 63. Do you road each of them ? — Not always, only some. 64. llow many do you read ? — Sometimes ten, sometimes not more than four or five. When I cannot read as many as I should wish, I announce the names— perhaps fourteen or fifteen — of the gentlemen who have been most successful. The number depends very much on circumstances, on the length of the compositions, the time at my disposal, &c. 65. In reading them what do you do? — llaving corrected them as well as I can, I read, first, the original translations in class ; secondly, the corrected translations, explaining why, for instance, I change this w'ord, the arrangement of that sentence ; noticing the prevailing defect of the writer, together with giving any advice that may apply to his studies generally. 66. How many of those exercises do you receive? — Of course, one from every student. 67. What is the number of the students?—! suppose on the avei’age about fifty. 68. And you read from about eight to ten of them ? — The nund)er will vary, as I said ; I reineml)er to have read twenty or thirty wdien the exercise was short and the' time, often very limited, was not necessarily given to other studies. If the compositions, English translations, particularly fill three or four pages of letter paper, it is clear I should interfere too much with the other duties of the students b.y reading more then four or five. On all occasions I am supposed to read all over very diligently in my room, which I cannot do always, I admit. It is very probable that the correction of compositions is the most onerous duty I have to discharge, because 1 feel that my other studies are a source of improvement which I cannot find here. 69. Assume that they are all read; you then read out about eight or ten which you have corrected? — Yes, 1 read them first without the corrections. I point out, afterwards, a parti- cular sentence, wdiich requires to be corrected, because the spelling is defective, or the arrangements, because a word is applied improperly, or because the whole sentence is wanting in energy and harmony. I suggest every change, in one word, which the different merits of the compositions, varying with the acquirements of the writers, seem to demand, from a change in the number or gender of a noun or tense of a verb to a change in the place a particle or of a foot in a rhythmical period. I notice the general rule applicable in a like case, and compare the sentence before me with others similaily constructed found in classical authors, or written by other students or by myself, if I thought I could express the meaning more clearly. 70. Does this occur once every week? — Yes, about that: soinetimes an idle day might happen to intervene, or the examinations may be near at hand, when 1 allow' more time for revision. 71. Is this done both in Greek and Latin? — It is done in Greek, and Latin, and Eng- lish — written translations from Latin authors generally in the last instance. 72. In English what does the student do ? — He writes an English translation of a Latin author. Suppose I select the preface to tlie 4th book of Quintilian ; the speech of Agri- cola, in his life, by Tacitus ; a chapter in the “ De Oratore ” of Cicero — every student writes an original translation of the passage, which is given to be corrected and read in class, if I think proper. 73. In all these cases do the students take to their rooms ■what you dictate, and bring you a translation the following week ? — When translating from Latin or Greek, it is evi- dent that all I have to do is to point out the particular passage, not to dictate. 7 4. Do the students take to their rooms what you dictate, and bring you a translation the following week ? — Always to their rooms, wdiether I dictate or not. I intended to add my present answer in reply to the last question, after explaining how it was the subject tvas proposed. 75. llow soon after the day on which you dictate to them do they bring you the trans- lation ? — One day, at least, intervenes. On Tuesday evening, at second class, I often select matter for the exercise to be given to me on the Thursday following. 76. Do you ever call upon a student to make a translation in class, without taking the subject to his room ? — -Exce]>t in the tVv'O instances which I have mentioned— first, translating Greek into English ; and secondly, translating Latin into English. I do not, as a general rule, call on the students in class, to translate English into Latin. I do not remember many a; 2 l l//( October, 1S53. TT llcv. 1). >[‘Carthy. Moilc of treating exercises. Eiglit or ten exercises selected, read out in class, and then corrected. Exercises in English translation from classical authors. Exercises brought the day but one after dictation to the pupils. 156 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. l-lth Octohfr, 180:3. liT Kev. D. M'Cartliy. Lectures in geometry. Mode of conducting geometry lecture. Larre’s treatise on geometry. How far it coincides V itli Euclid. Mode of demonstra- tion in class. instances. To adopt that plan, tvould relieve me from much lahotir, hnt then it appears to he attended tvith mucli inconvenience, for the students will thus liave tlie j)ropcr time for study, before class, entirely at their own disposal, and the time of class — devoted properly, I think, to interrogation and exposition — tvill he given to study. 77. You also give lectures in geometry, do you not ? — Yes. 78. llow^ many lectures in a week do you give ? — I could not say exactly ; if an exercise is given in Greek, or in Latin, or in Englisli, on Tuesday evening, at second class, to he prepared for the next day — as Wednesday is not one of my class days — that will form matter for the first class on Thursday. I receive the exercises tlien at the class. On the one hand, I cannot expect the students to he prepared in any other matter ; on the other, I could not he expected to read tliem, and correct them, at least with the precision I should wish, without any previous preparation : being very unwilling to suggest correc- tions, -when 1 have not carefully studied the compositions Ijeforeliand. It is only on such occasions that I give lectures in geometry, when I receive a written composition from each student. 79. How many days in a week do the students receive a lecture in geometry? — Per- haps at one class eacli week, or one day in a fortnight. The confusion which, 1 suspect, my last answer might occasion, is owing to the fact, that “ days and classes ” arc taken to have the same moaning. According to our msage, devoting a day to any jjarticular subject means two classes. Half a day, then, each week to lecture, or one class to lecture and'ono to interrogation, woiild he very near tiie truth. 80. About two lectures ? — Yes, each w’eek, including all the time in which I e.xplain or interrogate in class. Taking the average of the whole year, three classes every fortnight would he, I think, exactly the time given to this subject. SI. In what manner do you conduct your lecture on geometry? — I go to the black hoard myself, and explain every ]jroposition, one after another, illustrating each fully, as it is in the treatise, directing attention to any particular defect that 1 believe to exist,"in the order of demonstration or in the demonstration itself. 82. Has every student a copy of his own of the Avork on geometry in which you lecture? — While I lecture, every student has the treatise in his hand ; one individual might escape my notice. 8.3. Do you state before the class upon Avhat special subject in geometry your lecture will he? — Always. The course of lectures is continuous — in the order of the treatise. When 1 am to lecture is well understood, or I give cxpre.ss notice heforehand, saying, you will require to look over the treatise of geometry, as I intend to explain the subsequent part at such a class, or it is understood from the usual exercise given before the exposition. 84. Does Darre’s Treatise on Geometry contain less or comprise more than Euclid’s Elements of Geometry ? — I have taken notes of the propositions that are like and unlike in both, and 1 have marked those cn the margin of the copy 1 use myself. I should say that in the first book there are not more than six propo.sitions that are not contained, at least equivalently, in our treatise of geometry. It might be very difficult to point out any proposition except the 44th and 45th not readily deduced from tlie demonstrations applied by Darre. There are not more than seven ]jropositions, I tliink, in the second book that are not found in our treatise. I may^ mention the 8th, 9th, I2th, and 13th, Avhich could not be easily proved by any student confining liimself to the princij)les he has learned in m\' class, in the third book, 1 venture to say, there is no jn-oposition which any good student in my class will not prove Avitliout a moment’s hesitation, and the same is true of the fourth. There is no proposition in the fifth book that is alluded to by Darre expressly. The doctrine of proportions is treated of in our algebra. Wood’s editions. Darre inti’oduces the ])rinciples of proportions frequently, and applies every proposition in the fifth book of Euclid, and every conclusion therein is proved Avithout the prolixity and repetition Avhich are commonly censured as defects in the proofs of the fifth book. Then the sixth book is, Avith the exception of four or five ])ropositions — as such 1 Avould notice the four last theorems — contained, at least suhstantially, in our treatise. M"e have, besides, the doctrine of planes, not referred to in the six books of Euclid ; of solids — the five regular solids, the prism, the cylinder, the cone, the pyramid, and the sphere — their absolute and relative surfaces and solidities ; the method of determining the approximate ratio of the radius or diameter to the circumference, A’C. &c. The order, 1 may observe, is quite different. The 15th of the 3rd is the very first Ave prove, and the 33rd of the Gth is the fundamental truth on Avhich depends every demonstration Ave apply — that sectors of equal angles stand Aipon equal arcs, and that, therefore, central angles vary' as the arcs contained by the radii AA'hich form the angle. The Abbe Darre seems to have imitated very closely the celebrated French geometer. La Croix. 85. Does UamVs Geometry comprise Avhat are usually called conic sections? — No; these are not read in my class. It gives merely the method of determining the surface of the cone, its solidity', and the relation it bears in both respects to a cylinder of the same base and altitude, to the sphere Avhen inscribed and circumscribed, &c. 86. Does it frecpently ha])pen that you call upon one of the class, and require him to demon-strate a proposition on the board? — Every proposition is demonstrated openly in the class ; and as I call the students almost indiscriminately, no one knows, at least, is not sure, Avhether 1 shall call him at that class. Each proposition is demonstrated, not only by me, but by the students publicly in the class, and the same proposition proved again and again at reA'isious by different students. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 157 87. Does tlio student come down to tlic board? — Always. Should he fail to prove any point, 1 often put tlie same (piostion to others without asking them to come to the hoard. 88. How many in a day do tliat ? — At the last edass I called eight or nine. It is necessary to call so many, in order to ho certain of their proficiency, having only one or two cla.sses devoted to that snhject every week. Si). In either illustrating problems yourself in geometry, or in requiring one of your class to do so, do yon use algehraical synd)ols on the hoard ? — Ordinarily the letters of the alphabet, designating angles and lines. Then the doctrine of proportions is ap])licd very frecjnently in onr treatise, after the first ])ro])osition in ])roportional lines — that lines drawn from any ])oint in the side of a triangle parallel to the other two will divide the three sides into proportional parts. A knowledge of decimals and of the extraction of roots is required in finding the approximate ratio of the radius to the circumference. In short, the whole theory of cipiations, progressions, and variations must be well understood to apply all the proofs in onr text-hook. 90. Are all the students required to have mastered the elements of algebra before they are admitted into the class of geometry ? — All. 91. After they have completed their course in geometry, they pass, do they not, into the Logic Class, Avhei’c they remain for a year? — They do. 92. 'rhen, in the folloAving year, they pass into the School of Physics, do they not ? — Yes, they do. 93. There is, therefore, a complete gap in the mathematical course during the year of logic, is there not ? — There is, evidently. 9-1. Do you think that that is advisable? — It strikes me as a defect. I am convinced that, Avith very feAV exceptions, the students leaving ray class of geometry understand it as Avcll as they need, and many Avill forget nearly what they have learned, and acquire it again by additional study in the course of natural philosophy. 95. In other Avords, Avhen they come to the conclusion of your lectures they are competent at once to enter upon the study of plane and spherical trigonometry ? — Yes ; q)erfectly as AvclI as they will ever he. 96. Is it not the fact, that the studies in tlie Logic Class comprise so large a field that it is impossible for a student to keep up his knoAvledge of geometry by Avorking at it in his OAAUi room? — Students hnd it more easy to revive their knoAvledge Avhen studying in the Natural Philosophy Class ; hut, in my opinion, they can pay very little attention — scarcely bestow a thought on the subject during the logic year — engaged as they must he Avith different studies. It is a fact, 1 believe, that no student makes any effort to keep up the knowledge of geometry during the logic year. I speak from conjecture, Avithout any personal knoAvledge. 97. Should you think it advisable if the logic and natural philosophy could he bracketed together, so that after passing out of your class, natural ])hilosophy should be continued, accompanied by a certain portion of logic ? — I think there Avould he a great saving of time. 98. And a great economy of human intellect? — Yes. 99. Do you think that that alteration Avould he advisable and practicable ? — If it could he effected, it Avould he very advisable. There is, hoAvever, a ])articular difficulty about combining the course of logic Avith natural philosophy, Avhich is this ; if you suppose tAvo professors to be teaching the same class at the same time for tAvo years, no student Avould finish the course until he finished this biennial period. The same consequence Avould folloAV in the Theological Class. You never Avould have a class at the end of each year leaving the College, hut tAvo classes at the end of every second year. I think that Avould be very inconvenient as to the arrangements on the mission. The bishops would l)e very uuAvilling to he deprived of the opportunity of supplying vacant places on the mission at the end of each year, Avhere deaths are so frequent, and often so sudden, from violent disease. 100. Suppose it applied only to blending the logic and natural philosophy into one school of tAvo years, Avould that interfere Avitli the supply to the ministry after the theologi- cal studies ?— I think so, because }’OU must suppose that there Avill he a space of two years ahvays intervening before a neAv class can commence theology, and, therefore, there Avill be a space of tAvo years always interA'ening before the same class can finish theology. 101. Y"ou think that a person could not enter the Theological Class until he had passed two years in the class that has been described? — Y"es. 102. At present do persons enter the Natural Philosophy Class avIio have not been taught at all in the Logic Class? — ^No ; the difficulty Avould he, that if you make tAvo classes go on jxiri passu, they Avould he two AA’hcle years studying philosophy, comprising logic, and, consequently, they could not commence theology except at the end of every second year-. 103. If each student must pass through the two classes of logic and natural philosophy, what difficulty Avould arise from the same student passing the same two years in a blended course ? — None hut that I have mentioned, tlie difficulty of providing for the ministry each year. You would only provide for vacant places on the mission at the end of every tAVO years. 104. Those vacant places would not he supplied except by students aa’Iio had passed through the theological course, Avould they? — No ; hut there is, at jiresent, one class Avhicli finishes the course of natural philosophy each year, Avliich begins theology the next year. October, 18.03. 13. Ilev. 1). Jl'Cartliy. Algebra taught previously. Gap in mathematical course during logic year. Mo attention paid to geometry in the logic year. Proposal of com- bining logic and philosophy classes. Difficulty suggested by witness of etfccting such combination. Bracketing of logic and philosoiffiy classes. 158 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 14art of the library, and anotb.er volume three recesses distant from it. If you wish to know where any book is to be found, not in com- mon use, there is likely to be a long search, and often a fruitless one. 128. They are not marked upon the back so as to point out the department in which they ought to be placed ? — Not to indicate the place, but the matter of the book. 129. Do you ajjply those observations to the library of the senior students, or to the library of the junior students, or to both? — 1 apply those observations to the library of the senior students. 130. Do your class avail themselves of that library? — No. They arc not permitted to enter it, nor to communicate at all with the senior students for whose use it is intended. 131. With respect to your class, liave you. or not, any library accommodation? — I should say that, even in the College libi’ary, there is no accommodation for the students of my class. I do not regret, as 1 said, their exclusion from it on that account. 132. Are you acquainted with it? — 1 am. When a student, I often read there; after- •wards, on the Dunboyne Establishment, 1 was better able to judge of its contents; and since I became ])rolbssor 1 have learned more ot the value of books generally, and especially of those ccnimcted with ray own department. I am, however, now' perfectly satisfied that the public library is badly supplied Avith modern Avorks on classical litera- ture. 1 believe the statement 1 make Avill he admitted by every one acquainted Avith the contents of the library. It is a defect, i regret to say, admitted by all — one, hoAvever, that admitted of no reined}'. 133. lias any augmentation been made to it since 18-15 in the classical department? — I mentioned before somefeAV Avorks that have been added — not to any considerable extent, I confess. There has been a great Avant in that respect because there Avas no means of increasing the small library, and Avhatcver room Avas left Avas filled up \Aith books on theology, intended for the use of the students Avho Avere admitted to study there. Noav that our neAV library, Avhen fitted up, will aflbrd room for this and other improvements, I am sure the collegiate authorities Avill effect at once a change that Avas ahvays so desirable. The new buildings being made available in all their parts, there Avill be an ojiportunity of providing library accommodation for the junior classes. 134. in point of fact, there is no library to Avhich th.e junior students have access at present? — I am not aAvare that theie is a library, at least of much value. There may be some books selected lately for that purpose — to Avhich my pupils have not access as yet. I consider any collection formed from the College library, as far as my department is con- cerned, utterly deficient; because the public library is itself badly provided in this respect. 1 Avould require at least the best, if not all, the modern histories of Greece and Borne Avhich arc not dangerous to religion, the latest and best geographical and classical dictionaries, every standard Avork on the literature of the ancients, their manners, insti- tutions political and religious, good editions of the classics, &c. Indeed I knoAV it is intended to provide the best books connected Avith literature, ancient and modern, as soon as possible, for the use of the junior students. 135. llave you made any representations to the Council or the President as to the Avant of a library for your class? — Since 1845 there Avas no possibility of making a pro- vision. 'I'he Council and President, I believe, kncAV very avcII there Avas no library; but there Avas no possible remedy up to the present moment, and already a change is bemg effected. 13G. Have you made any representations to the Trustees as to the AA'ant of a library ? — No, 1 did not, because I thought it perfectly useless. Since 1845 there could be no improvement, if they Averc^ever so Avell disposed, and I am sure they are most anxious to provide the necessary accommodation for the junior students. It may be inferred from previous ansAvers, that to interfere at in all such matters is no part of my duty. I^IIXUTES OF KVIDEXCE. ICl 137. Were you on tlic Dimboyne foundation? — I was, from June, 18-t4,to November, 1845. 138. You were elected professor in November, 1845, were you not? — Yes. 13D. Were you elected from the Dimboyne Establishment ? — I was. J never left tlie College to undertake the duties of the mission. 140. Can you state, from your own knowledge, that the students possess now a greater number of books than they did when you were a student ? — Some of the students, from all I have heard — I have rarely entered their rooms since I have been a professor — possess more books than they could provide for themselves before with any convenience. I heard, within the last few days, of a sale of books bringing £'2(), and another bringing £60, a small collection sold by a young gentleman going to the Irish College in Paris, not the entire of his books. 1 bought, at one time, in a like instance, since 1845, books to the value of £14, from a Dimboyne student; not, of course, all he had provided himself with, but such as he might easily get on the Continent. 141. Were they all on the Dimboyne Establishment? — No, one was not. In the first instance, an ordinary student. 142. Do you happen to know in what class the ordinary student was ? — No. 143. Was he a student in the senior department? — I suppose he was in the senior depart- ment. I do not know that any student in the junior department has books worth £20. I am sure very few purchase to that amount during their course in the junior college. 144. Do )mu give any instruction at all as to the composition of sermons ? — Except the general precepts regarding eloquence, not applied particularly to sermons, but applicable to them, there are no instructions given in my class on sacred oratory. All the rules regarding the composition of a speech, as they are explained by Quintilian, by Cicero, by Blair, Campbell, Maury, Rollin, &C., are often cited, and illustrated by extracts selected from the greatest orators. 145. Not as to the subject matter of sermons, or the mode of composing them? — I never expressly treat of the matter of a sermon. Such instruction would be more useful, I think, when they are about to engage in the duties of the ministry. 1 16. Does it enter at all into your course to give any instruction as to the mode in which a student should perform the priest's duty, and convey instruction himself by means of catechetical communication ? — Except so far as it falls under the general precepts of eloquence, there is no particular allusion to the subject in my class. 1 fear the best rules would not be appreciated at this early part of their course. To speak to young men of sixteen or seventeen years of age on the method of ])reparing sermons, when they can kiioiv very little of the matter that should be introduced, would seem to me productive of no great benefit. 147. Do you, in any part of your course, give instruction as to the mode of teaching by catechetical means ?— No. 14S. Do you instruct the students how to examine in the Catechism — No, that docs not come at all within my province. 149. Did you receive any instruction of that kind during your course in the College? — The Professor of Rhetoric did sometimes, as I do, in a general way, apply the rules of eloquence, tauglit by ancient writers, to this subject, reading passages occasionally from the first sacred orators. In the theological classes, of course, all the duties of the priest- hood and the duties of the laity genorall}^ are explained ; for instance, the duty of receiving the sacraments, the disjiositions necessary, the moral obligations of every Christian, as bound by the laws of God and of the Church. 150. Were you taught any thing upon these subjects at Maynooth ? — Nothing of the manner of instructing the people, except general exhortations to accommodate the style to the different capacities of tlie hearers ; to instruct frequently and minutely in their several duties ; to show forth in our lives, and in our manner in the ])ulj)It particularly, liy earnestness and fervour, our zeal in the service of God : admonitions of this kind are often repeated in the criticisms on sermons, in the lectures at retreats, and at class. To learn the matter of these instructions is the end of all the studios in the College, more especially of Sacred Scripture and theology. 151. Does it come at all within the province of your lectures to distinguish, by any criterion, between temporals and spirituals? — No. 152. You are, of course, familiar with the doctrine taught by Dr. Delahogue in his trea- tise De Ecclesi/i ? — I cannot say that I am very familiar with it ; it is some time since I read that part of the treatise ; I may oliserve, in general, that I do not know wo pay miicli attention to it in the College, regarding it in the same light as we do many other questions, olim vexata, but long since finally settled. 153. Will you listen to this proposition, “ Christus Petro et successoribus ejiis aut Ecclesim nullara concessit potestatem directam vel indirectam in Regum temporalia.” Has the principle laid down by Dr. Delabogue in that treatise, tliat the Pope has no right, directly or indirectly, to interfere in matters of a civil or temporal nature, been, within your knowledge, invariably maintained in the College of Maynooth ? — I believe the doc- trine asserted in that proposition has been held by the Professors at iMaynooth. I never heard of the contrary assertion being maintained at Maynooth. I have no personal know- ledge, however, on the subject; and my own opinion coincides fully with the assertion of Dr. Delahogue. I do not believe that the Pope has any direct or indirect temporal power. 154. So far as you are acquainted with the doctrine professed in Maynooth, have you known this doctrine invariably maintained? — As I said, it is outside of Maynooth that y 143. You are aware of the provision of the Statute expressly providing that the Dunboyno students should take some share in the province of teaching ? — I am. 54. Did you not yoursell', when you ■were a Diinboyne student, take some share in the province of teaching ? — 1 did. 55. Did you find any practical inconvenience resulting from that ? — When my period of Inconveniences felt lecturing ended, 1 found it very inconvenient to have to study ])rivately all the theology, ’ ” canon law, history, and Hebrew' read by my class-fellow's, whilst I w'as lecturing. I also lost the benefit of the lectures and expositions of our Prefect, and this 1 considered a serious and practical inconvenience. 5G. You were called upon to fill the place of a professor who was ill, were you not? — I was. 1 also lectured in the Scripture Class during the recent vacancy of that chair. 57. Have you had occasion, in visiting the rooms of the students, to notice the description of library which the young men generally possess ? Is it a common thing now for each student to possess a number of books of his own ? — Quite a common thing. 58. What number do you find generally. AYould you say some tw'enty or thirty volumes ? — The number varies very much. I think, on the average, each of the senior students has thirty or forty volumes. 59. You were in the College, were you not, before the augmentation, of the grant ? — Yes, I entered in August, 1844. GO. Are you sensible of any considerable change in that respect, and that there is a better provision of books in the private rooms of the students? — I believe the students have much better libraries now than before the increase of the grant. Gl. Do they consult the dean as to the books they should purchase? — They do not. G2. Do all the books that are purchased pass through any recognised channel, or are they purchased, as any private individual might purchase them, without any communication with any officer of the College ? — A student may write to any bookseller in Dublin or London, and order as many books as he pleases, and he will receive those books without any com- munication Avith any officer of the College. When in his libraiy they are subject to the inspection of the deans. The booksellers Avho sell their books in the College, are required to present a list of their books to the Pi'esident before they expose them for sale. 63. It is a part of the statutable duties of the deans to carefully examine the books of Duty of deans to the students. Is it the practice of the deans to do so ? — It is their practice to do so ; they consider it a very important duty. 64. Have you ever observed among the books, “ Dr. Brownson’s Eeview,” a work that has attracted a good deal of attention ? — I have. 65. Is it in frequent circulation in the College ? — I know' only one student who w'as in the habit of reading it. 66. Are the books of the students such as are usually connected with their special studies, or are they Avorks of general literature ? — Generally speaking, their books are connected with their special studies, but many of them have Avorks in the various departments of general literature. 67. You have stated that a part of your duty is to give religious instructions to the young men. Are those instructions given in the form of lectures, or do you generally see them personally ? — They are generally given in the form of lectures or meditations. 68. It has been stated that the deans do not assist at all in the theological instruction of the students. You distinguish the theological instruction from the religious instruction, do you not ? — Certainly. 69. The deans, it appears, are now required by a recent regulation of the Trustees to teach the ceremonies of the Church, and also to superintend the classes instructed in the Gregorian Chant ?. — They are. 70. Is any instruction, excepting in that respect, given in Church music ? — Not by the deans. 71. How many assistants liaA'c you under the head of monitors? — Twenty-three. 72. Are those the wdiole body of monitors of Avhom you speak, or merely those connected with yourself ? — They are the whole body of monitors. 73. Have you not a set of monitors under your special charge, as aids to you ? — No. 74. In w'hat manner do the monitors report any misconduct on the part of the students, and to AA’hom do they report ? — They report to the deans. 75. To which dean? — The monitors of the junior house make their reports to the dean Duties of. who resides there. The senior house monitors may report to any one of the other three deans. When a dean A'isits a study-hall he may ask the monitor if there be any disorder in the hall, and if there be, the monitor would report it to that dean. 76. Or if there was any disorder in any one apartment, he w'ould report it to the dean haA'ing charge of that particidar part of the building, Avould he not ? — He Avould. 77. Does a monitor ever report directly to the President or Vice-President, or always to the dean ? — A monitor reports to the President or Vice-President whenever they ask him, hut ordinarily the monitors make their reports to the deans. examine books of the students. Dr. BroAvnson’s reA'ieAr. General nature of books possessed by students. Instructions in church ceremonies. Jlonitors — number of. 168 MAYNOOTIT COMMISSIOX. 15//» Octoler, 18.")3. 11 Eev. E. Ilackett. As to officers taking meals with students. Precedence of deans over professors. And over Prefect of Dunboync establisl;- nient. Distinction between matters spiritual and temporal. Dr. Delaliogue’s proposition. I nvariablyjmain- tained. 78. And the dean would cither send for the student and admonish him, or if necessary, report liim to a higher authority, woidd he not? — Yes, that is their practice. 79. Is it the practice now to impose fines upon the students according to the Statute ? — Xo. 80. Do you ever set them tasks in the way of imposition? — Xo. 81. But you admonish tlicm, and endeavour morally to correct tliem ? — Yes. 82. Is it generally understood tliat those who arc promoted to office in the College assume it as a ])ermanent vocation, and do not take it as a preliminary step to the mission ? — It is assumed that their office is permanent. 83. That is the general expectation and undei'Standing ? — I believe it is. 84. Do you tliink that it would obstruct the discipline of the College if the deans and other officers were to dine in company with the students ? — I am unable to offer an opinion upon that question ; I think it is one that requires much more experience of collegiate life than I possess. 8d. Are all the deans present during dinner, or do they take it in turn ? — They take it in turn. 86. One dean is always present in the refectory, is he not ? — Yes, there is always a dean present at breakfast, dinner, and supper, in each of the refectories. 87. Is there a distinction between the duties of the Senior Doan and those of the three Junior Deans? — The Statutes make no distinction; but custom and some regulations of the Trustees have given the Senior Dean certain exemptions and privileges. 88. Are you a member of the Council of the President ? — I am. 89. Do you take precedence there of the Professors of Theology and Sacred Scripture, or in the College ? — There was but one meeting of the Council held since my appointment, and judging from the mode of proceeding at that meeting, I do not think that any member of the Council takes precedence of another. 90. But you are aware that the Statutes give the deans a position next to the Vice- President ? — I am. 91. Is it not a fact that the deans do take precedence of the Professors of Theology? — It is a fact that the deans take precedence of the professors, but this precedence is not ob- served in Council — if I may judge from the meeting which I attended ; at that meeting the President proposed the questions for consideration, and the professors and deans discussed them and voted on them in any order they pleased, without any regard to ])recedence. 92. On what occasions do the deans take precedence ? — If they were taking their seats in public, before the students, they woidd sit before the profe.ssors. 93. In fact the deans come in order next to the Vice-President ? — Yes; that is the order assigned them by the Statutes, and the usage of the College. 94. They take precedence even of the Prefect of the Dunboync Establishment, do they not ? — They do. 95. If a dean were promoted to the office of Professor of Theology, would he not have to take a lower place at the table than whilst he was dean? — If a dean were appointed, I will not say promoted, to the office of professor, he would have to take a lower jilacc at the table than whilst he was dean. 96. As a student, has your attention been speciall}" called to the distinction between spiritual and temporal matters? — It has. 97. In what shape, was it the subject of a particular lecture, or of particular instruc- tion ? — The distinction between spiritual and temporal matters ivas sometimes expressly treated of in the course of a lecture — sometimes, and more frequently decisions were given, wdiich, without any express mention of this distinction evidently supposed it. The doctrine_^ taught in those lectures and implied in those decisions, amounted to this — that spirituaP things are distinct from temporal things — that the former are the objects of spiritual power — the latter of civil power, and that each power is supreme and independent in its own order. 98. Was that point enlarged upon in detail, in its application to the various circumstances of life, or was it laid down as a general pervading principle ? — It was laid down as a principle, and was also occasionally illustrated by being applied to some of the various circumstances of life. 99. Was Dr. Delahogue’s treatise, De Ecclesia, the treatise that was read in class when you were a student ? — It was. 100. Do you retain in your memory this proposition in Ins treatise — “ Christus Petro et successoribus ejus aut Ecclesiie nullam concessit potestatem directam vel indirectam in Begum temporalia, proindeque iste nunquain auctoritate clavium, etiam indirecte deponi possunt, aut eorum subditi a fide et obedientia illis debita eximi ac dispensari”? — I remember that proposition. 101. So far as you are acquainted with the doctrine maintained by the professors whose lectures you attended, have you known tliat proposition invariably asserted by tliem ? — It lias been invariably asserted, or sujiposed by all the professors whose lectm’es I at- tended. 102. Have you any reason to apprehend that a contrary principle, or a principle in any degree conflicting with that laid down in the proposition of Dr. Delahogue, and which has just been submitted to your attention, is entertained by any of the students at Maynooth ? — I have no reason whatever to think so ; on the contrary, I believe there is not a student in MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1C9 Maynootliwho entertains any principle conflicting: in the slightest degree with the ])roposition referred to. lO.’h Have you reason to l)elicve that the students are in the habit of reading works which conflict with the doctrine of Dr. Delahogue upon this subject? — They art not in the habit of reading such works; the only exception 1 know, is the case of a student who was in the habit of reading “ Dr. lirownson’s lleview.” 104. Dr. Hrownson, as a writer, maintains extreme views upon certain subjects, docs he not? — His views on the temporal power of the l*o]ie are extreme. 105. Have you reason to know or believe that the student in question did not adopt the view’s advocated by Di’. Ilrownson ? — I am quite certain that he rejected those views. lOG. As a student as w’cll as dean, will you state whether any instruction is imparted by the deans to the students? — Yes; the deans impart religious instruction to the students. 107. When are those instructions imparted? — They are imparted to the junior students on Sunday evenings, Wednesday evenings, and Friday mornings, and occasionally on the first Sunday of the month, and on some of the principal festivals of the Church. 108. At what hour? — From half-past five to six on Wednesday and Sunday evenings, and from half-past six to seven on Friday mornings. 109. Can you enumerate the ])rincipal festivals of the Church? — The 2 )rincipal festivals of the Churcb, on which religious instructions are given, are Christmas Day, Easter Sunday, the festivals of the Blessed Virgin, the feast of All Saints, the feast of St. Patrick, and the anniversary of the Dedication of the Churches of Ireland. 110. How often in the year are instructions given on festivals of the class you have enumerated? — They are not given every year on all the festivals I enumerated; they may be given about five or six times each year. 111. How often are instructions or meditations proposed on the first Sunday of the month ? — About four or five times in the year. 112. What is the reason for giving them on the first Sunday of the month? — I don’t know any reason for giving them on the first Sunday rather than on the second or third Sunday of the month. 113. Sometimes it is a particular day for communion, is it not? — That, I think, cannot be the reason, for most of the students receive the Holy Sacrament every Sunday, and many of them oftener. 114. At wdiat hour are those instructions given ? — They are generally given after prayer on Saturday night, and they are proposed the follow’ing morning at prayer, in the form of meditation. 115. In addition to the instruction also given on the Sunday evenings? — Yes. 116. What was the kind of instruction given on those first Sundays of the month ? — The Gospel of the Sunday was sometimes selected as the subject of meditation. Sometimes the instructions and meditations were on the virtues peculiarly necessary for ecclesiastics, and occasionally on devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. 117. Those were the subjects of meditation? — Yes. 118. Were they the subjects of instruction besides meditation? — They were. 119. Of what does the instruction consist on Friday mornings, and on the evenings of Wednesdays and Sundays ? — On Friday mornings, the instructions chiefly regard mental prayer — its necessity, advantages, and the best methods of making it. On Sunday and Wednesday evenings, the nature of the priesthood is frequently the subject of instruction ; the virtues and qualifications it requires, and the duties and obligations it imposes, are familiarly explained. The students are exhorted to prepare themselves for so exalted and holy a state, by the practice of every virtue ; they are particularly recommended to read the Epistles of St. Paul to Titus and Timothy, in order that they may know and endeavour to acquire all the virtues which the Apostle requires in the ministers of the Gospel. When any disorder occurs, the attention of the students is directed to it, and they are advised to avoid it, and observe the rules more strictly for the future. To encourage them to this, they are often reminded that the strict observance of the rules proceeding from motives of religion will sanctify all their actions — afford tliem opportunities of practising the virtues of humility, obedience, and self-denial — and enable them to acquire those habits of order and regularity wdiich are so necessai’y for a priest. The advantages which a priest derives from a familiar know’ledge of the Bd^le are often enlarged upon, and the students are earnestly recommended to acquire such a knowledge by reading it frequently and diligently. They are also advised to read approved spiritual w’orks. Those instructions and exhortations arc frequently enforced or illustrated by texts of Scripture, the authority and examples of the saints, and the princijdes laid down by the most eminent writers on ecclesiastical subjects. 120. What length of time did each of those instructions occupy? — Each instruction occupied half an hour. 121. Was the dean speaking during the half hour, or did he read any subject dmung a portion of it, or comment upon it ? — He spoke during those half hours. 122. During the three half hours upon the mornings of Friday and the evenings of Wednesday and Sunday? — Yes. 123. What was the kind of instruction given on the eve of festivals ? — Such as the nature of the festivals w’ould suggest as the most appropriate subject of meditation for ecclesiastical students. 124. Which of the deans communicated those instructions ; w’ere they given by all or by one only, or did they take them in rotation ? — The instructions on Sunday evenings, Wed- z \’olh Octoher, 1853. wT Rev. R. Uackett. Dr. Hrownson’s revie^v. Relijrioxis instruction imparted l>y deans to students. Festivals on which religious instruction is given Instructions given on first Sunday of the month. N.ature of instruction given on Fridays, Wednesdays, and Sundays. Time occupied in these instructions. Nature of instruction given on eve of festivals. Distribution of this duty among the deans. 170 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. J5/A Ortoher, 1853. 14. Key. R . Ilackctt. Religious instruction given to senior house. Week’s retreat at pentecost. Times of such in- ’ struction to senior students. Spiritual lecture to junior students on .Sunday mornings. Rooks read. Rule of trustees as to tr.aining in reli- gious ceremonies not yet in operation. nesday evenings, and Friday mornings were always given by the Senior Dean. The other instructions, on festivals, and on the first Sundays of the month, were sometimes given by the Junior Dean. 125. Were there two Jtxnior Deans at that time ? — There were. 126. Did they alternately take that occasional duty, or did it only devolve on one ? It devolved on the Junior Dean, who had the special charge of the junior house. 127. Did they in any other manner communicate with the students except on those occasions ? — They communicated ivith the students in various other ways, as the proper discharge of their duties necessarily required. 128. In your own time, since you have become dean, have you given any similar instruc- tions ? — I have not yet given any similar instructions. 129. Are you aware whether the other deans have done so? — They have. 130. Are you aware whether those instructions are at present, or have been during the time that you have been dean, imparted in the way that you have described ? — The delicate health of the Senior Dean prevented him on a few occasions from giving his usual instructions, but he intends to give them as before. 131. The Dunboyne students do not attend the instructions of which you have been speaking as given by the deans ? — No ; all the instructions of which I have spoken are given in the junior house; but the Dunboyne students are present at the instructions which the deans give to the students of the senior house. 132. What instruction has been given during the course of your experience to the senior students by the deans ? — The general character of the instructions given to the senior students is the same as that imparted to the students of the junior bouse. The virtues and dispositions required for embracing the ecclesiastical state forms the subject of several of those lectures. The duties of a priest on the mission — such as instructing the people, administering the sacraments, visiting the sick, &c., — ai’e more fully explained in those instructions than in the instructions given to the junior students. At Pentecost there is a spiritual retreat of a week ; during this retreat meditations are proposed on some of the great truths of Christianity, the end of man, the evil of sin, death, judgment, hell, heaven, &c. 133. When were those instructions given to the senior students ? — On some of the prin- cipal festivals, on various occasions during the year, and regularly on Saturday mornings. 134. At what hour ? — During morning prayer, from half-past six to seven. 135. Which of the deans gave those instructions? — The instructions on Saturday mornings wei'e always given by the Senior Dean ; many of the other instructions were given by the first Junior Dean. 136. You stated that upon every Saturday morning the dean lectured upon the duties of the vocation, and sometimes upon other topics that he deemed useful, with a view to their religious training ; was there any other instruction given to the senior students ? — Tliere was no other regular and public instructions given to the senior students except those I have mentioned. 137. Does any thing else occur to you with regard to the instructions given by the deans to the students ? — AVhen speaking of the instructions given to the junior students, I might have added that on Sundays they have a spiritual lecture read to them under the dhection of the dean. 138. At what hour is that ? — About half-past ten o’clock. 139. How long does the spiritual lecture last? — A quarter of an hour or twenty minutes. 140. What does it consist of ; is it read? — Yes ; it is frequently read out of Eodriguez’s “ Christian and Religious Perfection.” 141. Do you remember any other work? — Liguori’s “ Selva,” and Massillon’s “ Confer- ences” are sometimes read. 142. Do you remember any other work ? — I cannot, at present, recollect any other work. 143. AYhen you speak of the instruction given in the morning, is that during the half hour of prayer ? — It is. 144. What portion of the half hour is occupied in prayer alone, and not in that instruc- tion ? — Eight or ten minutes. 145. And the meditation occupies from a quarter of an hour to twenty minutes? — Ics. 146. Does that apply to all the periods which you have mentioned in the junior house on the evenings of AVednesday and Sunday, and the mornings of Friday, festivals, and the first Sundav’s of the month ? — It applies to the meditations on festivals and the first Sun- days of the month, but not to the instructions given on Sunday evenings, AA ednesday evenings, or Friday mornings ; on those occasions the dean speaks during the halt hour. 147. AATien it is in the mornings it consists of prayer and meditation for from ten minutes to a quarter of an hour, and instruction for a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes? — Yes. 148. In the evenings does it consist altogether of instruction? — Altogether of instruc- tion or exhortation. 149. Are you aware of the rule made by the Trustees last June, that there should be training in religious ceremonies and in singing ? — I am. 150. Can you tell the Commissioners what has been done in reference to that rule since the students re-assembled after the vacation, up to this time ? — The arrangements for teaching the ceremonies are not yet completed ; but 1 believe they soon will. That part ]\riNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 171 of the rule whicli regards tlie singing classes has been in operation from the commencement of the year ; the deans have superintended those classes since their opening in September. 151. How many are there in those classes? — They are very lai’ge classes; in some there arc forty, and in others there arc sixty or seventy. 152. How many classes are there? — Ten. 153. How many in the whole number arc there learning ?— All the students, except those of the Duuboyne Establishmeiit. ; 154. How long has that been so? — 1 believe it has been so for upwards of fifteen years. 155. They are taught nothing more than the Gregorian Chant? — 'No. 150. When you wore a student did you receive any instructions particularly directed to the composition of sermons beyond what you learned in the Rhetoric Class ? — -1 did not ; ' but I sometimes profited from hearing the superiors and professors criticising sermons j preached by the students. 157. AVhat sermons do you allude to ? — I allude to the sermons which arc preached on ' Sundays by the senior students. Some of the professors, or superiors are present at each ' of those sermons, and after having called on one or two students to state their opinion about it, they then give their own criticism on it. , 158. How long does their criticism occupy ? — I cannot state the exact time. 159. Is it five minutes, ten minutes, or a t^uarter of an hour? — It varies between five , and ten minutes. I 160. How long does the whole thing occuj)y — the sermon, the criticism, and all ? — About half an hour or thirty -five minutes. j 161. From your experience can you inform the Commissioners whether or not those 1 sermons are invariably the composition of the students who deliver them, or whether they j arc borrowed from others, or copied from books ? — They are not invariably the composition 1 of the students who deliver them ; some of them are written by other students, and a few of them are taken, with some alterations, from books. 162. Except in the criticism thus given, you did not yourself, in your course in the senior house, derive any instruction as to the composition of sermons ? — I remember to have heard some useful remarks from some of the professors in class regarding the matter and composition of sermons. 163. What professors do you allude to? — Some of the theology professors. 164. Those were incidental remarks, were they not, and not made to instruct in tho , composition of sermons ? — They were merely incidental remarks, and very brief and few. 165. Applying your attention to another mode of instruction, namely, the catechetical, I and the manner in which youth are instructed in the tenets of their religion, did you obtain any instruction as to the mode of conveying catechetical instruction either by pre- ' cept or by practice ? — I do not remember to have received any regular teaching on the ' best way of conveying catechetical instruction ; but from time to time I heard the pro- I i lessors and superiors insist upon the necessity of speaking in a simple and popular style ^ in giving instructions to the people. I have lieard that in various ways, sometimes in the || I criticisms to which I have alluded, and sometimes from a professor in class. I 166. With the exception of what may have been so received, or what resulted from M ■ those occasional remarks upon the importance of speaking in plain and simple language, ii I did you receive any other teaching with a view to conveying catechetical instruction ? — 5 I did not. * 167. Are you not of opinion that it would be desirable to have the senior students fi instructed in the mode of giving catechetical instruction, and also in the composition of y sermons and English composition generally ? — I am most decidedly of that opinion. 168. Do you think that it would be advisable to have it peculiarly applied to compo- ji ■ sition and to the structure of sermons ? — I do. 1 169. Do you apply that remark particularly to any class of students? — I aj)ply it to ; the students of the senior house. ' 170. The junior students receive no such instruction, except what they derive from the 1 Professor of Rhetoric ? — No. ( 171. And the seniors derive it in no way except from the criticisms that are pronounced ’ ; upon the sermons that are delivered every Sunday ? — No. 172. Is any advice or any instruction tendered to the young men on leaving the College y I for their missions as to their conduct generally on those missions, especially with regard I to their connexion with civil affairs, and their duty to the state ? — At the P entecost j Retreat, those who are to be ordained priests receive special instructions and advice with regard to their conduct on the mission. The substance of them is — that the proper dis- ; I charge of their ecclesiastical duties Avill afford abundant occupation to the most zealous ; I that they should accordingly devote themselves entirely to the performance of those ' sacred duties, and abstain from all unnecessary interference in worldly affairs. ; 173. These are the exhortations which are given on the occasions to which you have j referred? — Yes, more especially then ; but they are also given frequently during the year. ' 174. Have you known such inculcated frequently during the year ? — I have. 175. Are the duties of a good citizen frequently inculcated? — Yes; the students are exhorted to obey every lawful authority, and discharge in the most perfect manner every duty which the various relations of life impose on them. [ The Witness withdrew^ i z 2 Volk Octnher, 165;]. liT Rev. li. llackett. Singing cla.sses — uuiubers in. Instruction in com- position of sermons. Sermons preached by students. Criticisms on. Instruction in cate- chising. Desirable that senior students should be instructed in com- position of sermons and catechising. Advice to young men on leaving Col- lege as to their con- duct on the mission. 172 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION’. ir>th October, 1B53. 15. Kev. James O’Kanc. Decrease in number of students who remain during vacation. Personal intercourse between deans and students. Witness in charge of portion of tlie senior house. Desirable that eacii student should have a separate room. Already tlie case as to senior students. Might be arranged as to junior students. Increased sui>])ly of books by .students of late years. Preliminary edu- cation of witness. Armagh seminary. The Her. James O' Kane examined. 1. You have furnished a report of the number of students who remained in the College during the entire vacation? — Yes, for each of the past five years. 2. Tliero appears to be a remarkable diminution in the number ; can you, at all, explain the circumstances which have led to a constant diminution in the number of those who remain behind during the vacation ? — I am unable to ofi'er any exjtlanation further than this : that probably the improved circumstances of the country, and the increased facilities of travelling, induced many to go out who otherwise would prefer remaining in the College. 3. And, probably, the improved condition of the students consequent upon the increased grant ? — -That, too, might have influenced some ; but 1 may observe, that some remained for a part of the vacation, say the first month, who afterwards went out. They remained chiefly in order to avail themselves of the lectures given in tlie vacation. 4. What is the amount of personal intercourse that you have with the students; you do not assi.st them in their studies, do yon? — No ; I merely inspect them while at study. 5. You do not give personal advice as to the books wbicb they are to consult? — No; unless a student were to apply to me, and ask my advice on the subject. G. Are they in the habit of coming into personal contact with you, as dean, so that there is a kind of friendly relation established between you? — Yes; that is true, to a great extent ; they come to consult the deans on various matters that arise from time to time, and ask their advice, and I think this establishes a friendly relation ; I know such has been the case with myself. 7. Upon what kind of matters? T)o they relate to their personal conduct, or their studies? — Sometimes as to their personal conduct, but sometimes, also, as to other matters on which they want advice, and which do not regard either their studies or the discipline of the College, but ai’e altogether private and confidential. 8. The Commi.ssioners have been given to understand, that there is no special number of students assigned to each dean to superintend habitually, but that a certain number of rooms are put under his control? — Yes, that is the principle of the division ; but the junior house being apart from the senior house, the dean who has charge of it might be said to have also the special superintendence of that portion of the community. 0. What is your special department in the College as dean ? — The senior house. 10. A portion of it? — A’es, I reside in one wing of the old building, in what is called the chapel wing, or the new house, as it was formerly called ; I have charge of that house specially, and of a part, also, of the new buildings. 1 1 . Are you of o})inion that it would be an improvement if a portion of the students could be assigned specially to the charge of each dean, so as to be under his special control during the time of their collegiate studies? — 1 think it would have considerable advantages, but, at the same time, it might be desirable that others should have some share in the superintendence of those same students, in order that they, too, might be able to assist the President in forming his judgment of them. 12. Do you think it very desirable that each student should have a separate room? — I think it would be desirable that each one should have a separate room. 13. Could any arrangement be made, with regard to the existing building, for that ])urpose? — I think that there are some buildings, lately vacated, adjoining the junior house, that might, perhaps, be made available, so as to ailbrd greater accommodation to the junior students. The senior students have, at present, each a single room. 14. But in the existing buildings do you think it is possilde that arrangements could be made so as to give a separate room to each student ? — I think it might be done, by making certain alterations and improvements in the buildings that were formerly occupied as the lay College. 15. You have an opportunity of seeing the rooms of the students under your care, have you not? — Yes. 16. They are now better furnished, are they not, wuth books, than they used to be? — I think they are ; I had not an op])ortuiiity of inspecting the rooms of the students formerly, but, judging from -what I saw’ when I was a student, and from what 1 have seen during the past year, on inspecting the rooms, I think that there is a considerable improvement in that respect. 17. Should you say that there w’as, generally speaking, a desire on the part of the students to possess a library ? — I am quite certain that that desire exists on the part of almost all the students. They are most anxious to provide themselves, w’hile in College, with the books that would be useful to them afterwards on the mission. 18. In w’hat year did you enter the College? — I first entered the College in the year 1840, but after remaining about a year and a-half, was obliged to leave from ill health; I subsequently entered in 1844. 1 9. Where had you received your preliminary education ? — Most of my education I received from a relative of mine, a parish priest, who conducted a kind of diocesan school ; but I W’as, for a short time, at Foyle College, in Derry, a preparatory school for Trinity College ; I was also, for some time, at Armagh, in a seminary opened by the late Primate. 20. What W’as the nature of that college ; was it intended to be entirely prejiaratory, or did it provide an education fitting the individuals for orders? — I think it Avas principally intended as a preparatory college, but I know that a great many students destined for other professions were there at the same time with me. 173 3IIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 21. AVas tlio odiication carried to sucli an extent as would jjrcparc a youti" man for orders? — No; the course of education there was not intended to [ireparc a student to receive holy orders. . 22. Is the seminary to which yon referred that of which ^Ir. Hughes is now the j)rinci])al? — Yes, the same. 23. Were the young men well trained in classics tlierc? — 1 tlionglit that the course of education there was very good, as preparatory for entrance into Alaynooth College. 21. AVas there much exercise in Composition, Latin, or English ? — 1 cannot recollect tliat at that seminary tliere was mncli exercise in Composition, cither l.atin or English, so far as regarded the class in whicli I read ; but in the Engli.sh do])artment the classes were exercised in English Comjiosition. I have been informed, that at ])rescnt those wlio study classics there have fretpicnt exercises in Latin Composition ; tlie exercises were certainly few wlnle I was there ; hnt at the school comlucted by tlie clergyman of whom 1 sj)oke before, and in Foyle College, there were frequent exercises l>oth in Latin and Greek Composition, and in Englisli occasionally. : 25. It is one of your duties, is it not, to assist at the entrance examinations? — Yes. 2G. The Commissioners under.stand that the examinations last about seven or eight minutes each? — The time is not fixed, hut I think it is something about a (piarter of au hour; some get even a longer time; a shorter time suffices for otliers. 27. Do you think tliat a greater solemnity or fulness might be given to these examina- tions ?— As it is little more than a year since my appointment, I have been present only on two occasions, and on both, besides the deans, tlie President, the ATce-President, and some of the professors were present, but I do not know whether they might not be regarded as having greater solemnity if more assisted at them. 2S. Do the examining professors regularly and punctually attend at the entrance examinations? — According to the Statutes, the President is authorized to summon all, but cannot compel the attendance of any under a ])enalty. AATth respect to the actual attendance, I can speak only of the two examinations at which I was myself present. At the first of these, that is in August, twelvemonth, the Professors of llhetoric and of Ilumanity were present, the Professor of Ecclesiastical History, and some one or two of the Theological Professors, besides the Prefect of the Dunboyne Establishment, and the Professor of Scripture, now the Primate, Dr. Dixon ; there was then a very full attendance. At the last examination there was not so full an attendance for the first day or two ; for the last three days there was a fuller attendance. However, I do not think that there were fewer at any time than six or seven, including one or two professors, at the ordinary examination in Latin and Greek, but at the examination in [Mathematics there were generally only three present. 29. What opportunities have you of ascertaining the fitness of the students as candidates for the sacred ministry ? — The opportunities are such as are afforded by the performance of the ordinary duties of the dean, seeing that they attend at morning and evening prayer, and the other duties of the da}', and forming an estimate of their character from their observance of discipline, or their neglect of it, as the case might be. 30. It is not from personal conference with them, but rather from general observation of their conduct with regard to the discipline of the house ? — The observance of discipline is the principal test, but, of course, a good deal is also known from personal intercourse with them. 31. Does the acceptance of each as a candidate depend mainly upon the recommendation of the dean? — The deans and the Vice-President form the Council of the President in determining on the fitness of those who are to bo promoted to orders. The deans, generally speaking, have, perhaps, a better opportunity of ascertaining the fitness of candidates than the President or the Vice-President ; but they have their own opportunities of observing, besides what they learn from the report of the deans. 32. Their fitness is ascertained generally by an observance of their general conduct, with regard to the discipline of the house, rather than by personal intercourse with them ? — Yes, the observance of discipline is, as I have said, the principal test, and it is regarded by all who have had experience in the matter as the very best and surest test. This is not to be wondered at, for the discipline of the College is such that no student can observe it without making great progress in virtue as well as in learning, while the student who is habitually negligent of it is likely to make very little progress in either, and shows, by the very fact, that he is not well fitted for a life of laboiu- and self-denial, such as that of a good priest must be. The fitness of each candidate for orders is carefully discussed in the President’s Council. After receiving reports from the professors, and hearing the opinions of the Vice-President and deans, the President decides upon his admission or his rejection for the time being. It sometimes happens that a student is not promoted to orders at present, but yet there is no intention of finally excluding him ; the object for the present being to show him that there is some defect in his conduct which he would require to correct. 33. Do you enter into conversation with the young men when you superintend the walks, as dean, or at other times? — Yes, on the walks I generally have some one or two of the students with whom I converse during the entire time of the public walk ; also, when visiting them in their rooms, I occasionally enter into conversation with them ; and when tney come, as they do frequently, to my room, for the purpose of asking an exemption, or for any other purpose, I very often have a conversation with them. loth October, 165.'5. 15. llcv. James O’Kaiie. Training in classics thore. Composition. ■Entrance exami- nations. Attendance of exa- miners at. Ascertaining fitness of students for ministry. President’s Council for deciding as to giving of orders. Fitness for orders ascertained by ob- servance of general conduct. Conversation between deans and young men. 174 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Ihth Octoler, 1853. liT Rev. James O’Kano. College Statutes read aloud at commence- ment of year only. Provisions of Statute as to assistance of deans at exercises out of class. Monthly exercises disused. Monthly revisions instead ; President present at them. Provisions of Sta- tutes as to sermons by students, and familiar expla- nations of rudiments of faith. Four sermons on cadi Sunday. Attendance of supe- riors at them. Provision as to ex- planation of rudi- ments of faith not carried into effect otherwise than by above sermons. 34. Are the Statutes of the College read out to the community in the course of the year ? — They are read out at the commencement of the academical year, always before the opening of the lectures. 3.5. Are they read out after the half-yearly examinations? — No, they have not been in my time. 30. You are awai’e, are you not, that there is a provision in the Statutes to that effect? — There is. 37. But the present practice is to read them at the commencement of the collegiate year? — Yes. 38. You are, probably, aware of the provision in the Statutes respecting the deans, to this effect : “ Let them act as directors and assistants in the exercises that are practised out of class what arc the exercises at which the deans assist ? — I understand those exercises to be morning and evening prayer, all the public religious exercises of the students, their recreations and their studies, so far as the dean could be considered as directing or assisting them in these. 39. I9o you think that that is the correct interpretation of the Latin words of the Statute : “ Exercitationibus qua3 extra scholas frequentantor, rectores se et adjutores prsebento ?” — I think these words are explained, at least partially, in what follows ; but, at all events, it is the only interpretation that I have learned from usage. 40. Will you have the goodness to refer to the ninth chapter of the Statutes, and read the title in Latin ? — “ De Exercitationibus Judicationibusque Literariisi” 41. Do you observe, in the first clause of that chapter, that those exercises, or meetings for the purpose of those exercises, are stated to be held immediately after morning class ? — Yes. 42. Arc those exercises which are specified in the Statute held at the expiration of every month of the academic year? — I cannot say that the monthly exercises now in use are those contemplated by the Statute, but I believe they are regarded as a fulfilment of it in substance. At ])resent, on the first Tuesday of every month, there is a revision of tho business gone over in the preceding month, at which the President assists ; he is present, but it is held during the time of class. 43. Do the deans attend ? — They do not ; but I have been credibly informed that the matter was discussed at the Board, and that in consequence of objections made by the professors to the contemplated attendance of the deans, it “was ultimately settled that the President alone shoukl be required to attend. 44. Will you have the goodness to look to that second clause in that chapter, and read it ? — “ Once in the week let all the students who have finished their first year’s theology, commencing with the eldest, either explain the rudiments of faith, in familiar discourse, or even deliver a formal sermon ; let this order be continually repeated to the end of the academic year ; let the President appoint time and place for the exercise ; let him lay a fine on those who do not comply ; let a half hour be sufficient ; let all the members of the College be present.” 45. That would seem to come, would it not, under the definition of an exercise practised out of class ? — It would. Sermons are dehvered every Sunday by some of the divinity students, and at those sermons the deans attend ; they are delivered in the different haUs. 46. How many sermons are given on each Sunday? — Four; unless it happened that some student, whose turn it might be to preach, was prevented by illness, or had left the College. 47. Are those sermons all delivered in the senior house? — Three of them are delivered in the senior house, and one to the junior students. 48. Does one of the deans attend at each of those sermons? — The Vice-President attends at one of them, and one of the deans attends at each of the other three. By an arrangement of the Board, made some years ago, the superiors and professors were distributed among the four halls. After the sermon is over the dean (or tho Vice- President, in the hall where he attends), calls on one or two of the students to give a kind of criticism on the discourse, and this is followed by some observations from the dean, or one of the professors, if any be present. 49. Are they A\Titten sermons, or delivered extempore ? — They ai’e written sermons, but the students do not read, but deliver them. 50. Is it the practice for the students ever to “ explain the rudiments of faith in familiar discourse ?” — Except so far as that is effected in some of those sermons, I think not. 51. It is not the practice for them to explain, extempore, the rudiments of faith in familiar discourse? — Not, so far as I know, since I entered the College; but in some of those sermons the students give a familiar explanation of a certain virtue, or of some point of faith, and perhaps this, though not extempore, might be regarded as explaining the rudi- ments of faith in familiar discourse. 52. Will you have the goodness, now having I’ead those clauses, to look to the third clause of the fourth chapter ? — I would be inclined to suppose that that tim’d clause may also extend to those exercises mentioned in chapter 9. 53. And the practice of the College seems rather to conform with that view of tho Statute? — Yes; but those are not exercises at which the deans, alone, are obliged to assist ; and in what I before stated regarding the meaning of that tliird clause, I had in mind those exercises at which the deans, alone, are bound to assist. Besides, it would appear that the attendance of the deans at the sermons is provided for, by requiring all MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 175 the nicmhors of tlic College to be present ; and their attendance at the examinations is also provided for, since the “ Judices” of the several masters must he ]>resent, and the deans are “ Judices” of all the masters, as is plain from comparing cap. G, No. 3, & scq., with cap. 7, No. 5, so that provision would seem to ho made for their attendance at these exercises, independently of the third clause of tlie fourth chapter. 54. But if the provision of the first clause of the ninth chapter w^ere carried into effect, namely, that the ancient form of disputation were maintained, there is no provision in that first clause of the ninth chapter for tlio attendance of the President or professors? — It may not be clearly expressed, hut it seems to he implied in the concluding words. It says, “ Let those meetings he held immediately after morning class ; lot the President define the time, which is to he neitlier longer than an hour, nor shorter than half an hour. Let the subjects of discussion he matters treated of in class during the preceding month ; let the professor assign the defenders of the questions, the President the opponents.” 55. You observe that this w'as to ho an exorcise in which each class should engage, the class of dogmatic theology commencing, and the other classes following in order, the time being after morning class? — Yes; hut as I have already said, the practice, now, is to hold those exercises during the hours of class. 5G. But in a different form ; in the catechetical form, arc they not? — They ai*e carried on, so fill* as I can remember the manner, in the same way as the ordinary classes, except that the students are liable to he examined iipon any part of the matter treated in class during the preceding month, and they are all liable to he interrogated. In the Theological Classes, in my time, there was no disputation of the kind contemplated here ; it has been practised, I believe, in the class of logic. 57. Is there any part of the course at present pursued in klaynooth which would practise the students in the Exegesis of Scripture, or an exposition of the rudiments of faith ; — is he ever called upon to expound them ? — Never ; except during the time when he is obliged to answer his professor in the Scripture Class, and in the sermons wliich he is obliged, in his turn, to deliver. 58. Is that provision of the Statute in the ninth chapter observed, that two examinations should take place every year, one at the commencement, and the other towards the end of the academic year ? — It is ; the examination at Christmas is held about the commence- ment of the common year, and the other, the summer or June examination, commences generally about the 8th of June. 59. At what period of the year are the annual rewards of diligence and the usual honors assigned ? — At the conclusion of the summer examinations. The professors of the different classes generally select a number of the students, and propose to them questions, in writing, upon the business of the year, and after having examined those compositions, they decide upon the respective merits of the students of their different classes, and give the premiums accordingly. 60. The deans take a part in the examination, do they not? — Yes, that is at the public examination. 61. Looking at this chapter of the Statutes, these examinations appear to he connected, more or less, with the literary exercises? — Yes. 62. Is it the practice of the dean to visit the students whilst at study? — Yes. 63. At their rooms, or in the study-halls ? — At both times ; when the students are at study, in their rooms, they visit them occasionally ; but in winter, when they arc in the study-halls, they visit them much more frequently. 64. The words are, “ conduct them during the public walks, and visit them whilst at study ;” the interpretation of that passage, I presume, would be “ in the study-halls ? — I think that clause would apply both to the rooms and to the study-halls. At the time the Statute was framed I am inclined to believe that a great many students were together in the same room, as well as in the study-halls. I know that custom interprets the Statute as applying to both. 65. Ilow often do those visits to the rooms take place ? — The visits to the rooms, while the students are at study in them, depend partly upon the discretion of the dean. He may visit them then, or while the students are absent, but the Statute requires that they be visited twice, at least, every fortnight. 66. In point of fact, how often arc they \dsited? — During the past year, of which, alone, I am competent to speak, they were not visited oftener than once in a fortnight; and, indeed, the number of rooms was so much increased, the new buildings having been occupied for the first time last year, it would have been impossible to fulfil the Statute according to the letter, so as to visit them all twice in a fortnight. 67. How long does each visit last? — In some rooms a very short time suffices; few require more than five or six minutes ; some might require ten minutes ; it depends upon the disci-etion of the dean ; there is no fixed time. 68. What is done on the occasion of the visit? — The deans examine if the room be in proper order; whether it presents the appearance of cleanliness and regularity, or the contrary ; but most of the time is spent in inspecting the books. 69. Then the visit is rather for the purpose of seeing the condition of the rooms, the books, and the accommodation of the students, than wdth a view to the students’ application to study? — Yes, that is the principal object; but, at the same time, it is the duty of the dean to visit them, or, at least, he may, if he wishes, visit them whilst at Study in their rooms, as well as in the public halls. \!jth October, IS');!, 15. Eev. James O’Kane. Monthly revisions Carried on as ordi- nary classes, but ■with liability to be examined in matter of x)receding month. Examinations. Premiums and honors awarded at summer exami- nations. Deans take part in the examinations. Deans visit students at study, both in their rooms and in the study halls. Visits of deans to students’ rooms. Periods of. Dur.ation of. Nature of. 176 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Iblh October, 1853. 15 . IJev. .Tames O’Kaiie Periods of study in tlie study-halls, and in the students’ rooms. Visited once a day in the halls. Visits unexpected. Inspection of books used. Advice as to studies. Nature of visits to study-halls. Number of study- halls. Monitor presides in study-hall in dean’s absence. Admonitions in case ol breach of order. 70. How often is this visit, in reference to their studies, made? — They study in their rooms for about six weeks before they go to the halls. During that time, 1 suppose, the visits to them in their rooms during study, would he two or three. 71. Do you mean two or three visits to each student? — Yes, about that. 72. During what period of the year? — During the interval between the commencement of the studies of the year, which is on the 12th September, and the time when they go to the halls, which is usually about the 20th of October ; and again from the time when they leave the halls, which is generally some time in April, till the close of the year. 73. Are the Dunboyne students ecpiaUy visited by the deans? — No; at least as far as my practice and experience go. 74. You state that they are vi, sited about two or three times between their return after vacation, and the time Avhen the lectures commence ? — Not until the time when the lectures commence, birt until the time when they go to the study-halls. 75. When do they go to the study-halls? — Generally about the 20th of October; while they are in the study-halls they are visited much more frequently. 76. In the study-halls they remain till what time? — Generally until Easter. 77. In the interval between leaving the study-halls and going to their private rooms to study, and down to the time when they disperse for the vacation, how often are they visited? — I think about two or three times. 78. Between the period about Low Sunday and the beginning of October? — Yes; during the time of vacation, which is included in that period, the students who remain generally occupy one portion of the building assigned to them, and have their rooms near each other. 79. ( )f course they are visited also ? — Yes. 80. While they arc in the halls how often do you visit them ? — They are usually visited once a day, sometimes twice or oftencr, sometimes, perhaps, not at aU ; but there are few days on which they ai’e not visited by some of the superiors. 81. What length of time does that visit occupy ? — I should say for each hall about from ten to fifteen minutes, including the time necessary for examining the lists. 82. Have the students notice beforehand that the dean will visit them ? — No. 83. You come upon them quite unexpectedly? — Yes; they are never certain of the time. 84. Is it tlie custom for you to examine the subjects of the books they are reading? — The dean may do so, and certainly would if he suspected any book to bo an improper one. 85. AVhat is the interpretation that you attach to the duty of visiting them whilst at study ? — To see that they are in their rooms, or in the halls, engaged in study, and that they kee]) order and silence during the time. 86. Not to ascertain the kind of study in which they arc employed ? — The great majority are always found engaged in the studies of the class ; but the dean, in his visit, would also endeavour to ascertain whether any might be reading prohibited books. 87. In point of fact, do the deans ascertain upon what subjects they are employed? — I do not think they can ascertain accurately in every case ; but they are pretty well able to judge from a glance at the books before them. From the examinations, the reports of the ])rofessors, and the inspection of the books in the possession of each student, they can form a tolerably accurate oi)inion as to whether any student, who has been for some time in the College, is attentive or otherwise. 88. Do they give them any advice as to the mode of pursuing their studies? — No ; that is considered to be the duty of the professor. 89. In point of fact, is it the practice of the deans to go round and look at the books which the students are reading? — It is very often done. 90. Al)out how often ? — xiimost as often as they go to visit them ; in some students’ rooms, ■|)erliaps, they might not look at the books they are reading. 91. The question referred to the halls? — In the halls they usually go round the tables, and look at the books upon which they are engaged. 92. Do the deans go round every table? — That is the general practice. The students are seated at tables ranged round the hall, about from eight to twelve at each table ; and the dean, paying his vi.'it, goes along the tables, and observes whether each student be in his place ; whether he be attentive to his study, or, on the contrary, idling his time, and perhaps annoying others by sjmaking or otherwise. 93. Tiiat occupies about a quarter of an hour in each class room, docs it not ? — I dare say, about tliat. 94. How many stud^'-halls arc there? — There are seven study-halls. 95. Is a monitor always present in each of those study-halls ? — Always. 96. During the absence of the dean what does the monitor do ? — The monitor presides constantly ; lie is ajiiiointed for the purpose, and is responsible for the order of the room. 97. Is it his duty to prevent any individual from interrupting the studies of others? — Yes. 98. Has it occurred to you to have occasion to admonish or correct any student upon the occasion of tliose visits ? — I do not remember that it has ever happened to me, except once, when I found some two or three students out of order a little ; they had been absent from their scats, but they went to them at once, so that I had no occasion to speak to them. 99. Has their neglect or misconduct ever been reported to you by the monitors?— I i I I .AIIXUTE.S OF EVIDENCE. 177 The monitors .arc required to "ive a rc])ort to the dean respcctiiif^ the conduct of every student in the liall ; and in making tlieir reports tliey mention tlie names of those wlio may liave been disorderly. 100. Has that oi'ten happened ? — Since 1 became dean, that is, during the past year, in no instance hut one was tliere a serious violation of order ro])orted. 101. Are you able to state, from your observation during the year you have held the oHice of deau, whether the students are attentive to their studies on those occasions, or the reverse ? — 1 am prej)ared to say that they have been, on the whole, very attentive and assiduous iii their studies. 102. Were you familiar with the a])pearauce of the rooms of the students whilst you were a student 2 — 1 bad a ])retty fair idea of the condition of the rooms at that time. 103. Are you able to state, from your own knowledge, that the general character of the rooms is improved in point of cleanliness, and in other I’espects, since the increased grants — I am inclined to believe that they are, to some e.xtent. At ]>resent there are ser- vants charged with the duty of cleaning out the rooms ; formerly the students themselves were obliged to ])erform that duty; and I think this circumstance, together with, ])erhaps, also, an improved taste on the ])art of some of the students — at least of some — has given the rooms an appearance of greater neatness than they formerly had : I am speaking from a general idea of the condition of the rooms when 1 -was myself a student. 104. You think, do you not, that the students, generally speaking, have now a larger supply of books than they had before the increased grant — 1 think so, decidedly, as to the students of theology, they arc better provided with books on divinity than they were formerly. 105. In fact your remark applies to the senior students who are benefited by the increased grant ? — Yes. 10(5. The students are also in some degree assisted in respect of furniture by the College, are they not ; and certain articles arc permanent ? — Yes ; they are all provided now with beds. 107. For which they pay nothing at entrance? — I think not; of that I am not quite sure ; but in the junior house, in addition to beds, about half the students ai'e provided also wdth a table, basin-stand, and a bookcase. 108. Does the health of the students now come under your observation and care as dean ? — To a considerable extent it does. 109. If you observe that a student is ill, what do you do ? — I visit him frequently during his illness. The deans pay frequent visits to the infirmary when there is any case of serious illness. 110. It is part of your duty, is it not, if you observe that a student is ill, to make inquiry, and ascertain whether it is necessary for him to go to the infirmary ? — lie generally comes to the dean, and tells him that he is ill, and wishes to see the doctor ; the dean then gives him permission to go to the infirmary, where the doctor attends every day ; and if he be placed on the sick list, the dean will visit him in the infirmary. 111. Is there an infirmary for each house? — Yes; there is an infirmary in the junior house, aud also one in the senior house. 112. What is the state of the infirmary in the senior house? — Indeed it is not at all such as would bo desirable ; the house itself, I think, is not well adapted for the ])ur- pose. I believe it is one of the oldest buildings about the College ; so, at least, 1 have heard. And at the time wheii the grant was increased, I understood it was the determi- nation of the Trustees to have it removed altogether, and another built on a different site. in. As a matter of fact, when a student goes from his own room to the infirmarv, has he greater comforts in the infirmary, looking to the furniture and arrangements of his chamber, than he possesses in his own room? — 1 think not. 11-1. Is he equally, or is he less comfortable there than in his own room? — He has attendance, and he has also a fire during the winter, or whenever the doctor orders it. In other respects I do not think he is so comfortable as he would be in his own room. 115. Can he have a fire in his bed-i’oom ? — Yes. 116. Are there fire-places in the rooms? — Yes ; in the infirmary there is a fire-place in each room. 117. Are there any baths in the infirmary fit for the use of the students? — There is one in the senior infirmary, and another also in the junior infirmary ; but with regard to the condition of the latter, I cannot speak now. I know it was out of order not long ago. 118. Are there no arrangements now for vapour baths or hot baths in the infirmary, in case any number of the five hundred students were sent there? — There is a provision in the bath-room of the senior infirmary for hot, cold, shower, and tepid baths, but only one can be accommodated at a time. 119. Are they in order? — They were in order not long since; during the last year frequent baths were taken ; at present, or at least a few days ago, workmen were employed in repairing the fire-place that heats the water for the hot bath. 120. You have lately, have you not, had the misfortune to lose a student, -who died in the infirmary ? — Yes. 121. What was the nature of his illness ? — It was, I believe, a pulmonary complaint ; I am not sure of the exact nature ; 1 heard it characterized as dropsy on the lungs. 122. What age was he ? — Twenty-seven, I think, was the age. 123. Was it a disease of long standing, so far as you have heard? — lie complaiaed, I 2 a \')lh Orhihfr, IsCO. 15. Ucv. Jiimos O'Kane. r.ut one violation of ordt-r reported sineo witness became dean. Attention and assiduity of students. Improvement in tlic character and con- dition of the rooms Larjicr supply of books. Imitrovcment in furniture of rooms. Health of students. Dttty of dean in case of illness. Infirmaries — state of. Comparative com- fort of infirmary and students’ rooms. Eaths. Case of recent death of a student. 178 MxVYNOOTIT COMMISSION. 15/A October, 1853. bclieve, at the close of last year of an affection of the chest, which continued during the vacation, and when he returned, he stated that he was still in a very delicate state of Kcv. James’ O’Kane, health, and shortly after he went into the infirmary, the lungs were seriously attacked ; I bclieve there was a swelling on each side. Dr. Corrigan happened to be absent, and Dr. Brady was brought down ; he pronounced it a very critical case, in which the chances were against the student. 124. Was he some time in the infirmary ? — lie was, I dare say, about a month. 125. Was he a student who occupied a room which came under your observation as dean ? — lie was ; last year he occupied a room in the new buildings, and I may say, I think that room itself — like all, indeed, on the same side of the corridor in that wing (the western wing of the new buildings) — was very damp ; and I would not be at all surprised if the state of the room might have affected his health. Students put into 126. Do you think that the students were put into those rooms rather too soon, and new rooms too soon, before the building was thoroughly dry ? — I think it would have been desirable, if pos- sible, that there should have been allowed some longer time for the purpose of drying them. They appeared, however, to be tolerably dry when they were first occupied ; and, for some time before, the students manifested great anxiety to be allowed to occupy them, on account of the crowded state of the old buildings. 127. On which floor was the room in question ’? — On the second floor. 128. Not in the attics? — The room that he occupied in the new buildings was on the second floor ; he possibly might have changed it ; I do not recollect that he did. 129. Had it a westerly aspect? — It had. 1.30. Then, of course, it was open to the sun during a considerable portion of the day ? —Yes. No fire-place in new rooms. Ventilation. Dampness of new rooms. Whether cause of illness of student in iiuestion. 131. There was no fire-place in it, Avas there ? — No ; there is no fire-jdace in any of the bed rooms in the new buildings. 132. Is there any provision for ventilation? — There is, by means of ventilators over the doors, and also by leaving a pai’t of the windotv so that it may be opened and shut. 133. But there is no general protfision for renewing the air of the rooms without opening the windows? — Not any. 134. There is no general central ventilating chimney? — No. 135. Have those rooms by this time become more dry and more habitable? — I think there is some improvement in that respect by the length of time they have had to dry ; but even still I think they are not at all in a satisfactory state. 136. Does the rain come in through the windows ? — In all the rooms, except those in the attics, the sashes are of metal ; and I think in most, if not in all of these, the rain makes its way through the crevices ; the part of the Avindow Avhich opens cannot be closed so as completely to keep out the rain. 137. Have you observed damp upon the walls? — I have, in some of the rooms; in that westerly Aving particularly, after rain. 138. Have you observed traces of damp on articles of clothing or furniture in the rooms ? — I have seen, in some instances, the shoes of the students in these rooms pre- senting the appearance of very great damp, and covered Avith green mould. 139. Are you able to say whether the student Avho has been referred to ascribed his illness to the dampness of the room? — He did not to me, but I heard he did to others. 140. Do you knoAV Avhether he Avas healthy before he became ill? — So fiir as I could | judge from his appearance, I think he Avas. 141. How long had he been residing in the College? — He had read one year’s diAunity; this Avas his second year. 142. Hoav long had he been at Maynooth ? — I am not quite certain, at this moment, about | the time of his entrance. 1 think he entered the Logic Class, consequently he Avas about i three years in the College. 143. How long has that part of the building been occupied ? — Since the commencement j of the last academical year — that is, since the 1st of September, 1852. 144. At Avhat time of the present year did he contract his illness? — On his return this year he complained of being affected in some Avay by disease of the chest. j 145. Had he been ill before the vacation? — He complained of illness, occasionally, for j some time before he Avent out ; but he Avas not, except on some days, so ill as to be unable | to perform his ordinary duties. 146. When did he first complain of illness? — I do not remember the exact date. 147. xVbout Avhen Avas it? — It Avas about the close of last year — about the end of Mayor commencement of June. 148. Before he occupied the damp room ? — No ; during all last year he occupied a room j in the ncAV buildings, and on his return this year he occupied a room in a different part of ! the College — in Avhat Ave call the long corridor in the old building. j 149. lYas he placed there in consequence of his illness? — No ; that room fell to him by distribution ; he selected it. j 150. Prior to the A'acation had he seen the doctor? — I should tliink he had. I believe ; he was in the infirmary occasionally about the close of last year. 151. Mlien did he first go to the infirmary ? — I cannot remember the date. 152. Is there a register kept of those Avho go there? — I cannot say there is an exact register ; but each day a list of those Avho-are dining in the infirmary is handed to the deau. 153. Can you ascertain AA’hen he first Avent to the infirmary ? — Yes; I can. | MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 179 154. What doctor saw him prior to tlie vacation ? — I am not certain whctlicr lie liad seen any doctor except Dr. 0'Keliy,tlic medical attendant. It may have been that he consulted Dr. Corrigan at one of his monthly visits at the close of last year ; I am not certain. 155. When did he return this year? — On the 1st of September. 156. Did he go at once to the infirmary ’? — I tliink not for some days — not, perhaps, for a week. 157. Are you able to state what doctor then sav>^ him? — I do not think he had an opportunity of seeing any doctor but Dr. O’ Kelly, till Dr. Drady was sent for. 158. AVhen was that? — It was about ten days before he died that Dr. Brady was sent for. 159. Are you able to state why it was that no further medical attendance was procured, except Dr. O'Kelly, until so late a period? — I am unable to state any reason, except that probably Dr. O’Kelly did not Iielieve it necessary, or thought that, in the absence of Dr. Corrigan, it would not be advisable to call in any other. I do not know ; the matter altogether rests with the medical attendant. 160. Is Dr. O'Kelly the only person to determine whether another is to be called in? — So far as I know, he is. 161. He is the resident medical attendant, is he not? — Yes. 162. That is to say, he resides in Maynooth? — Yes; and comes in to the College every day. 163. Is he a surgeon or an apothecary? — I believe he is an M.D. 1 don’t know what else he may be. 164. Is he assisted by his son ? — Yes. 165. Does he keep a dispensary in Maynooth, ora shop for the sale of medicine? — I think he keeps a dispensary. I know that ho supplies medicines for the students. 166. Is he an apothecary ? — I believe he is. 167. Does he keep an apothecary’s shop? — I am not certain, as I have never been in his establishment. 168. Residing in the College, cannot you state whether he keeps an apothecary’s shop ? — I think he does. 169. Have }'ou any doubt about it ? — I have a doubt of it. I only know that he supplies medicines to the students. Ills house presents the appearance of a private dwelling. 1 have never been in it, as I have said, so that I am not certain, though I am inclined to believe that he has an apothecary’s shop. 170. Is it the practice for Dr. O’Kelly to visit the College every day? — Either Dr. O’Kelly, senior, or his son. 171. How old is the elder? — I dare say he is about seventy years of age. 172. Is there any dispensary or depository for medicines within the College? — Kot any. 173. If a student is taken ill at night, how is the doctor obtained?— In such a case, generally, he 'vvmdd get one of his fellow-students, living near him, to go to a servant, and have him sent off for the doctor immediately. 174. Without applying to the dean ? — Application would ordinarily be made to the dean in the first instance, but, at all events, the servant could not get out without getting the key from the bursar, who would, consequently, be apprized of the matter. I remember that, on one occasion last year, I was called at night by a student to go to the room of another, who was taken suddenly ill. On inquiry, I found that a servant had been already despatched for the doctor, and the student, after having sent the servant, came for me. 175. What means have the students of calling for that assistance at night? — None, except by rapping on the partition wall, and rousing the student in the next room. This was done in the case I have just mentioned. 176. There is no sick bell, is there ? — No ; a superior or professor, as well as a student, would be obliged to have recourse to the same, or similar means, if he got suddenly ill at night. 177. What kind of room was the deceased student in during his illness in the infirmary ? — It was just the same kind of room as the others in the infirmary, not indeed well furnished in any way. 178. Was it a room that the Commissioners visited ? — Yes; for I understand they visited nearly all the rooms in the infirmary of the senior house ; the infirmary in the junior house is much superior in every respect. 179. Ill the infirmary where tliat student ivas, was there any blind to any window, any carpet to any room, or any curtain to any bed ? — No. 180. Was there any water-closet ? — Yes ; there is a water-closet in the infirmary. 181. With regard to the room, which was low and small, in which the invalids were who were not in bed, was there a thorough draft produced by the windows on both sides ? — That is the state of the sitting-room undoubtedly ; the ceiling is low, and there are windows on both sides. 182. Do they sleep in the bed-rooms of that infirmary, or do they sleep in their own rooms, and go to the infirmary by day ?— Some of the students remain in the infirmary and sleep there ; but the greater number sleep in their own rooms, and go to the infirmar}- during the day. 183. Did that student who has been referred to remain in the infirmary? — lie did, most of the time. He was, for a few days, in his own room before he went to occupy the room in the infirmary. 15(/i October, 1853. 15. Itov. .Tames O'Kanc. Cause of delay of medical attendance. Ttesident medical attendant. Case of sudden illness at night. Means of obtaining medical assistance. Condition of the infirmary. 2 a 2 180 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Z’Uli Oclohn', 1S53. 15. li’cv. James O'Kane. Servants attending the intinnary. ])r. Corrigan’s visits. Dr. O'Kelly 's per- mission obtaineil for students to eonsult Dr. Corrigan. rrequcncy of Dr. Corrigan's visits. Surgeon Ellis. Ilis fees. Dr. Corrigan's salary. Visits of !Mr. O'Kelly, senior, and ilr. O'Kelly, junior. Contom])lated re- moval of intinnary. Eesidence of the deans. 184. T\"erc the rooms in a condition to be occupied the day that the Commissioners "were there '? — I dare say they were in as good condition then as they liave been since. 185. Ur were before'?- — Or were Irefore. Inconsequence of the new buildings being erected where tliey are, tlie intinnary was to be removed altogether, at least I heard that its removal was contemplated; and hence many improvements that might have been other- Avise made were omitted. 18b. Do any of the servants attend the infirmary ? — There is a matron in it, who has her sister livitig there also, two elderly women, avIio reside in the infirmary, and there is also, I believe, permanently attached to it a man servant, who brings messages. 187. How often does Dr. Corrigan visit the College'? — Once every month. leiS. What is the nature of his visit'? — He goes to the sitting-room in the infirmary, and any student who has leave from Dr. O'Kelly, or is advised by him to consult Dr. Corrigan, is at liberty then to consult him. 189. Is no student allowed to consult Dr. Corrigan unless rvith the permission of Dr. O'Kelly '? — -1 think it is the general practice to obtain his permission first. If I am not mistaken, however, in some instances students have consulted Dr. Corrigan without obtaining the previous leave of Dr. O’Kelly. That I cannot assert for certain ; but I think so. 190. Where does Dr. Corrigan stay when he visits the College? — He goes to the infirmary, and in the sitting-room there he hears any person who wishes to consult him. 191. Dr. O’Kelly was appointed somewhere about 1808, was he not? — I think so. 192. Dr. Corrigan itays about ten visits to the College in the course of a vear, does he not?— So I think. 198. Does he generally remain some time in the College? — He generally remains a few hours. He also comes down when specially sent for ; but he comes down once every month, whether or not he be required specially. 1 94. Are there any other medical attendants at the College besides the physician and Mr. O’Kelly and his son ? — Surgeon Ellis occasionally vdsits the College: but 1 believe only when he is s]) 0 cially sent for. 195. And Dr. Brady only attends when specially sent for? — 1 never knew him to be at the College except on the occasion 1 have mentioned, and then only in consequence of Dr. Corrigan's absence, 1 believe. 19G. Wiiat is Surgeoji Ellis paid? — So much for each visit, I think. The amount I am not certain of ; but I think it is tliree guineas. 197. How is Dr. O'Kelly paid? — 1 really do not know the amount, or the fund from which it is taken. 198. Do you know how Dr. Corrigan is paid'? — 1 think, by a late resolution of the Trus- tees, his salary is fixed at £120 a-year. 199. Do you know what it was before ? — I think it was £G0. 200. Have you ever known Dr. Corrigan attend except upon the occasion of his monthly visit? — I cannot remember the instances ; but I think he was sometimes sent for specially. 201. You do not recollect any ])articular instance? - No one occurs to me at this moment ; but 1 am almost certain that he has been sometimes sent for sjiecially. 202. Docs the elder Mr. O’Kelly attend himself regularly ? — He does frequently ; but his son, 1 would suppose, as often as himself. Sometimes both visit the College on the same day. 208. Which of the two is substantially the person rvho attends ? — I think it might be said that they attend about an equal number of times, unless on some occasions ; for instance, there was a period of some weeks, when the elder Dr. O’Kelly w'as ill, during the entire of that time the young man attended. 204. Have any re])resentations been made to the Trustees, or to any other quarter, with respect to the insufficient accommodation in the infirmary ? — 1 really do not know, but 1 dare say there has been by the Bresident. 205. Have you any reason to know that such has been the case? — No; except that he gives the Trustees a general report as to the state of the house, and I presume he would not pass over the insufficient accommodation of the infirmary ; but since tbe new buildings Avere erected, or rather since the foundation of them Avaslaid,it Avas in contem])lation to re- move it altogether, and consequently special reports or representations regarding the infir- mai’y may not have been made since that time. 20b. How often haA'e you, Avithin the last year, for instance, visited the infirmary ? — I dare say about four or five times, on the average, every Aveck ; sometimes 1 have been there three or four times a day. 207. Did you ol)servc a AA’ant of cleanliness in the infirmary on the day that the Com- missioners visited it? — 1 was not there on that day. 208. IlaA'C you CA^er had occasion to complain to the servants of that ?— I sometimes, but A-ery seldom, did. Altogether the aspect of the house is any thing but pleasing. It appears very gloomy and uncomfortable, and Avould impress you at once as being ill adapted tor an infirmary. I have, 1 recollect, on some occasions observed that the rooms ought to be somewhat better made up and arranged. 209. Mdiere do the deans reside? — One of them resides in the junior house, and the other three reside in the senior house. One, the Senior Dean of the College, resides in the neAV buildings ; one in the chapel Aving of the old buildings ; and the third in Avhat we call the long corridor, Avhich is the central part of the old buildings. iAIIXUTES OF EVIDFNCK. 181 210. Do any of the students occupy that loup; corridor? — At present all the rooms on the lonp,' corridor, with the exception of some very larp;e ones, are occu])ied hy students. 211. Then one dean’s rooms are amongst those of the students? — Yes. 212. Is the room of any other dean amongst the students’ rooms ? — i\Iy own, for instance, is on the same corridor with the students' rooms. 2E5. Which of the deans, besides you, is amongst the students? — Mr. llaclvott’s rooms are on the long corridor, amongst those of the students, and also tlie rooms of Dr. J.iOC, in the junior house. 214. Are his apartments amongst the apartments of the students? — Yes; they are sepa- rated only hy a staircases on each side. 215. The Senior Dean’s apartments are at a distance from those of the students, are they not? — They arc; at least there are no students’ rooms on the same corridor. 210. And tho.se of the Vice-Fresident and the President ? — Those of the Vice-President communicate with the corridor on which the students’ rooms oj.'cn. 217. There is a passage between the part of the building where he lives and that corri- dor, is there not? — Not that I am aware of. Jn the new rooms of the Vice-President there is a door opening on the corridor on each side of which the students’ rooms are ranged. 218. Is any instruction given by the deans, with a view to instruct the students in the composition of sermons, or as to the mode of convoying catechetical instruction? — They sometimes take occasion, in their observations upon the sermons ])reached by the students, to make some suggestions as to the manner in which the}’ should convey those instructions to the ])Cople. if they were addressing them. This is the only instruction given to the divinity students on the subject, and it is, of course, very meagre and inadequate. 219. This occurs upon the delivery of the Sunday sermons, does it not ? — Yes. 220. Of which there are four? — Yes, occasionally also, in the instructions given to the students, with regard to the obligation of preaching, reference might be made to the neces- sity of adapting their sermons to the people. 221. in the course of exhortations given from time to time? — Yes; but they have no formal instruction on the subject, except in the way I have mentioned — in the way of criticism. 222. llow’ long does that criticism last ? — The time varies. I suppose it lasts about from five to ten minutes. 223. Is that shared in by the students themselves? — Yes; a student is first called on, sometimes two, and then the dean, or one of the professors, if any be present, makes his observations at the close. 224. The whole criticism of all would not occupy more than about ten minutes? — I could not exactly state the length of time. 1 suppose it would be about that. 225. How long does the entire matter take, the delivery of the sermon, and the criticism? — •! think the average time is about thirty-five minutes. 226. Are you able to say whether those sermons are uniformly composed by the students who deliver them ? — I am quite certain that many of them are ; but 1 am not sure that some may not have been copied from the sermons of other students, written on the same subjects. And I think some are translated from the French, -with slight changes, so as to adapt them to the audience. 227. Are any means taken to make certain that they shall be the compositions of the students themselves ? — 1 do not know that there is at present any means of securing that object, except the fear of being detected in plagiarism ; because that, if apparent, would he very naturally adverted to in the criticism. 228. Is any scrutiny made, with a view to that detection ? — Nothing more than what might strike the persons who give the criticisms at the close. 229. Is there any other instruction, that you are aware of, given, in sacred oratory, for instance, with regard to the composition of a sermon? — Not to the students of theology. In the junior house the students, who attend the English Class, are instructed in the princi- ples of sacred oratory by the English Professor. At least, speaking from my own exj)e- rience, as a student, I know" that was the case; general rules were laid dow’u, but I believe the students, in that class, are not so well able to ap[u’eciate those instructions as they would be, if they received them at a more advanced period of their course. 230. Do those in.structions rather ajtply to general composition than to the composition of sermons, or the framing of discourses to be delivered by a ju’iest to his flock? — Many of those instructions, no doubt, refer to the general principles of composition, but I believe that the profe.ssor usually gives special iustructions with regard to the preparation of ser- mons. I speak now’ solely from my own recollection of w’hat occurred when I w’as in the class. 231. To what extent did you receive instruction as to the composition of sermons? — I remember that the principles w’ere laid down. I have said that 1 believe the students are not then so w’ell able to appreciate those instructions, or to derive so much advantage from them, as they w’ould if they w’ere given at a later period. 232. You allude now’, do you not, to the lectures upon the English language, or to the lectures in rhetoric? — To the lectures given by the I’rofessor of English, in the English Class. I cannot speak of the lectures given in rhetoric, as I did not happen to read in that class myself. 233. Is the English Class subsequent to the Rhetoric Class, or prior to it ? — The students, both of the Humanity Class and the Rhetoric Class, attend the English Class. I loth Ocinhir, ISOo. 15. Kev. .James (J’Kaiie. Iiislructiou by the (loans in composition of sermons and mode of conveying catcchetiral instruction. No such instruction, except criticism on Sunday sermons. Wliether sermons are uniformly the composition of the students themselves. Instruction on that subject in class of English rhetoric. 182 ■MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. \oth October, 1853. 15. Rev. James O’Kaiic. Advice to students as to the i>erfor- niance of tlioir diitic's on the mission. Advice as to i)olitical matters. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to temporal power of tlie Pope or Church. No reason to helieve tliat any contrary doctrine prevails. “ Dr. Brownson’s Review.” Prohibited as coming miller the denomi- nation of a lieriodical. Dr. Delahogue’s. doctrine inculcated as a truth to be embraced and believed. Complaint among the students with respect to medical attendance. read in tlic TIunianit}' Class, and during that year I attended the English Class, hut I did not read in the 1‘hetoric Class. 2-34. How did it happen that you skipped that class ? — The President thought it advis- able at the time that I should read in tlie Logic Class, immediately after reading humanity. 235. Does it form part of your duty to give the students any advice upon their conduct in their different parishes, after they leave the College ? — That duty is, for the most part, performed hy the Senior Dean. The instructions, however, relate solely to the duties of priests on the mission, as pastors of the people. I believe the impression made upon their minds before leaving the College, is, that for the full discharge of these duties, it will be necessary for them to employ all the time they may have at their disposal. 236. Do you give them any advice or instruction as to their conduct in regard to civil matters? — Xot any, except so far as they might collect what they ought to do from the principles laid down that shonld guide them as pastors. 237. Is reference made in those instructions to any practical matters of a political kind, that may ari.se in their parishes? — I never knew any instance in which reference was made to those subjects. The instructions relate to their duties as pastors; their duties in instruct- ing the people, assisting in the confessional, and administering the sacraments ; and to those other sacred duties which belong to their office. 238. Do you bear in mind at this moment the doctrine laid down by Dr. Delahogue in his Treatise “ De Ecclesi i,” “Cbristus Petro et successoi’ibus ejus ant Ecclesiie nullam concessit potestatem directam vel indirectam in Regum temporalia; proindeque isti nunquam auctoritate clavium, etiam indireete deponi possunt, aut eorum subditi a fide et obedientia illis debita eximi ac dispensari ” And liave you known this proposition to be invariably asserted by the j^i’ofessors at Maynooth ?■ — It has always been maintained by them, so far as I know. 239. Have you always taught that doctrine, if b}’ any chance you have had occasion to refer to the subject-matter of it ? — I have never had occasion, hut I have always maintained that doctrine myself, and of course, if occasion required it, I would have taught it to others. 240. Have you any reason to believe that a contrary principle, or a principle conflicting with this doctrine is entertained by any of the students at Maynooth ? — I have no reason to believe that any such principle prevails among.st them, or is adopted by them. 241. Have you reason to suppose that they are in the habit of reading books which con- tain principles conflicting with that doctrine ? — I have no reason to suppose that they are in the habit of reading any books of the kind, except controversial works, as Bellarmine, for instance ; of course they are in the habit of reading these. 242. Have you not, in the course of your inspection of the books of the students, observed that some of these students were in the habit of reading “Dr. Brovvmson’s Review,” in which the doctrine of Bellarmine is maintained ? — I have never seen that Review in the collection of books possessed by any student, and what is more, I believe that it would not be per- mitted ; not because it maintains an opinion conflicting with Delahogue’s, but inasmuch as it would come under the denomination of periodicals, which are not allowed, especially if they be recent numbers, because they are regarded as likely to distract the minds of the students from their mDre serious studies. I do not recollect seeing it amongst the books of any student. 243. According to your recollection, was the doctrine, as laid down hy Dr. Delahogue, inculcated and taught at the time you were receiving your instructions as a theological student ? — It was. 244. Is the question fully discussed so as to arm the stxideut with arguments on the subject ? — I believe that is generally done ; hut in the year in which I read this treatise, some part of it was omitted, or rather many propositions were passed over, without that full discussion which they would otherwise have received ; amongst the rest this was one. I know the doctrine was stated. 245. For what reason was it passed over ? — As well as I can recollect, something occurred to shorten the time of the lecture that year ; I believe it was the illness of the professor. Dr. Murray. 246. That is to say, the discussion by Avhich the arguments, and con, are contrasted and considered? — Yes. 247. Are you able to state that in your course, that proposition Avas inculcated as a truth to he embraced and beHeved ? — Certainly ; the doctrine there laid down was stated by the Professor of Theology, when he taught this treatise, as the doctrine to he maintained on this subject, though the question was not fully discussed, for the reason I have mentioned. 248. Is the reading of that particular treatise the only opportunity for dealing Avith that subject in the course of theology ? — Yes ; I think that is the only place Avhere it is formally discussed. Xo doubt the principles laid doAvn enter into other parts of theology — into some of the moral treatises, but in all such cases the decisions Avould be such as would agree with the principle here laid doAvn. 249. The treatise referred to is the class-hook in which the topics as to that pai’t of the course are laid down for instruction? — Yes. 250. Is there a feeling of discontent, or the reverse, among.st the students, Avith reference to the means of access to medical advice and attendance ? — 1 think it is the subject of complaint among.st the students. I am certain, that in my OAvn time as a student there were many complaints on the subject. The A’isits of Dr. Corrigan were regarded as in a mauner useless by many of the students, because of the presence of Dr. O’Kelly MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 183 on those occasions ; I do not mean to say tliat it was a fault on the part of Dr. O’Kclly, hut Ortohrr, 185.). many imagined that it was of no use to consult Dr. Corrigan in Ids ])rescnce, as they tliought his ultimate decision would he in accordance with what Dr. O’lvelly might say. I know itov. James O' Kane, that that im[)rcssion prevailed amongst them. 251. You are aware that it is the practice of a physician never to see the patient of a surgeon or an apothecary, except in the presence of the one or the other ? — Yes ; I believe that is usually the case; 1 wish merely to convoy that there was such an impression on the minds of the students. It may not have been a fair one, but this was one reason why they were discontented. 252. Did the same thing apply to Surgeon Ellis ? — I cannot say that it did. lie was Dissatisfaction that rarely called in — only when Dr. O’Kelly sent for him; huti know that some of the students who required surgical treatment, were dissatisfied at his not being sent for oftener. '' oltcner. 253. As a matter of fact, the students very seldom have the assistance of Dr. Corrigan, hut they are for the most part under the medical superintendence of Dr. O’Kelly ? — That is the case. 254. Has there been any increase in the number of Dr. Corrigan’s visits during the last five years ? — I think not ; as long as 1 recollect he was in the habit of visiting once a month. [ The Witness ivithdrewi\ [The witness, having no register, or other memorandum to which he could refer while under examination, was requested by tlie Commissioners to take a note of the following questions, to which he afterwards supplied the answers.] 1. Wliat is the number of students who remained in the College for the first month of the vacation, in each of the past five years? — In 1S49, 127 ; 1850, 100; 1851, 99 ; 1852, 72; 1853,40. 2. On what day did the deceased student first comjdain of sickness after his return this year? — -Tie returned to the College on Thursday, the 1st September; he told some of his companions that he had been sickly during the vacation, and that he still felt unwell, ljut he did not consult the doctor until the following Sunday, the 4th ; he went to the infir- mary on the 5th, and remained there till his death. 3. Are any of the students who were in the infirmary when the Commissioners visited the College there at present (15th October)? — ^Not one. Tuesday, 18th October, 1853. The Rev. John O' Callaghan, examined. 1. You were educated at Maynooth, Avere you not? — Yes ; I Avas there for some time. At Avhat age did you enter Maynooth? — I was about sixteen or seventeen years 2 . of age. 3. In what class did you enter Avhen you first went to ]\Iaynooth? — In the Logic Class. The loAvest class AA'as humanity, the next rhetoric. I Avas examined before the pro- fessors, when I entered, and they found that my answering entitled me to go at once into the Logic Class. 4. Where had you been previoush" educated? — At a classical school in the county of Cork. 5. Was it a mixed school? — Yes, 6. In Avhat part of the county ? — At Kanturk. 7. Through Avhat classes did you pass Avhile at Maynooth ? — Through the Logic and Physics Classes, and part of the first year’s tlieology. 8. In Avhat year did you enter Maynooth ? — In 1835 or 1S3G. 9. Did you, in the course of your studies there, come in contact Avith the question of the limits between the temporal and the spiritual poAver ? — Not in any definite form in Avhich it AA’as taught in the classes. 10. Did those parts of Dr. Delahogue’s treatise Avhich touch upon the limits betAveen the temporal and spiritual power form a part of your study ?- — 1 had not gone so far ; I was only in the beginning of “ The Church” Avheii I left. 11. You had no opportunity of knoAA’ing Avhat was the nature of the teaching upon the subject of the limits betAveen the temporal and the spiritual poAver ? — I had not. 12. Did any thing pass under your notice Avhich led you to aknoAvledge of AA’hat was the teaching of the professors upon that subject ? — No. 13. Neither one Avay nor the other? — No ; I cannot say that there Avas any thing that led me to tliink Avhat the teaching of the professors in their classes may have been on that point. 14. You left Maynooth in the third year? — Y'es, in the beginning of the third year. 15. W’^hat Avas the cause of your leaving Maynooth ? — I left it because I had lost all faith in some of the doctrines of the Church of Rome. And I left it of my own free ivill. When I entered Maynooth, it Avas the fondest Avish of my heart to become a Roman Catholic priest ; but I lost faith after some time in some of the doctrines of the Church of Rome, and then I voluntarily quitted the College. I resigned my place to Dr. Montague, the then President ; he Avas very kind to me, and Avrote to my father, telling him that I had acted very properly in resigning my place, Avhen I found that I could not conscientiously retain 18f/i Octohtr, 1853. 16. Eev. J. O'Callaglian. Witness entered in Logic Class. His previous educa- tion. Had not reached the “ CImrcli’’ tract in Maynooth, Left iMaynooth in the beginning of the third year. Cause of, and circum- stances attending, his leaving. 184 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. iSth October, 185:^. 16. l{ev J. O'Callagli.iii. Loyalty not infuscil. Instance, Lonl Xornianbv's visit in 1 « 3 «. Mr. AVhitelie.ad’s speech. Recollects no other instance of any politic,al demonstra- tion. Dr. Renehan i>rescnt and sang. Other persons present. it; and lie also kindly toM mo that if mv fatlicr would not provide for me he would use his inriuence with the Duke of Leinster to ])rocure a situation for me. It has been said that 1 was expelled from the College, hut I solemnly now declare that 1 left the College of my own free will, and that because (as 1 have said ) 1 lost all faith in most of the doctrines of the Church of Home ; and considered it would have been very dishonest in mo to have gone on. and become a iloman Catholic priest, when 1 had ceased to believe the doctrines of that Church. 16. As far as your experience went, was a s})irit of loyalty infused into the students ? — No ; I should say not. 17. Have you ,any thing to state upon that point ? — I can state a fact which came under my own notice, which, I think, plainly .shows that a spirit of loyalty was not inculcated there. I remember, when 1 was a student, that the then Lord Lieutenant, the Karl of IMulgrave, the present INIarquess of Nonnanby, visited the College, when we were all drawn up to receive him, and presented an address to him. He then ordered that our examinations (it w.as just at the approach of the winter examinations) should be dispensed with, and at the same time ordered us some wine. Three bottles were, accordingly, served to every mess. The students at meals are divided into messes — every mess consists of eight persons. IVe (dubbed, and made up some money to send to Dublin for confectionary and otlier things ; the College supplied us with hot water, and we had a feast. There was a great deal of jovialty on the occasion. In the coui'se of the evening some of the ])rofessors paid us a visit; when they came in, there was a rush of the students towards them, and they soon formed a circle round them. O'ConneH’s health was projiosed, and the Professor of Logic, j\Ir. Whitehead, spoke to the toast. 18. In what year was that? — In the November of 1836, as well as I remember. I remember distinctly that IMr. Whitehead on that occasion observed, — “That, as we were bound by every principle to support aud defend those who would fight our battle, and seek liberty and entire emancipation for us ; so, on the other hand, there was no law, human or divine, natural or revealed that prevented us from seeking, by all legitimate means, to humble a nation that would grind us, tramjjle upon us, enact penal laws against us, and set the same value u[)on tlie head of a priest that it had set uj)ou the head of a wolf” 1 remember those words, and as well as I recollect, these are his ipsissima verha — certainlv 1 give the substance of what he said. That sentiment was applauded for four or five minutes. The then Professor of Logic is now, 1 believe, the Vice-President of the College of Maynooth. 19. Was that a ])criod of great political excitement in Ireland?— It was, I think, after the time of the great anti-tithe meetings in Ireland. 20. Do you remember any other instance at all of a similar kind in which the students made any political demonstration ? — No ; I do not recollect any other instance of any political demonstration having been made by the students. 21. Who was the head of the College at that time? — Dr. Alontague. 22. Did the authorities of the College take any notice of the occurrence by reprimanding any party? — Not to my knowledge. 23. Was any other profe.ssor present besides Mr. Whitehead? — A^es, the then A^ice- President was present; his name was Kenehan ; I think he is the present President; I remember he sang. 24. Was he ])resent during the delivery of the speech? — A"es, for he sang before or after that speech. 25. ^Vas any body else present that you recollect? — As well as I remember. Dr. Montague was present. 26. During the speech? — I am not quite certain, but as well as I remember he was, I remember those two in particular, because one sang, and the other made a speech. 27. Do you happen to remember any other individual, student or professor, who was present? — The entire of the senior house were present. I do not know who the present deans or professors of the College are. Dr. Crolly was present, 1 think ; I only think three or four su[)oriors wore there. 28. Was the whole body of the students present upon that occasion? — The whole body of tlie senior house. 29. Including the Dunboyno students? — A"es, I should say that the Dunboyno students were ])resent. 30. Did all this take place, so much as ]>art of th.e feast, that those who were present must have heard it ? — A'es, certainly ; the ])rofessors came in — it was at an advanced stage of tlie feast — when a great many songs had been sung by the students ; a great man}’’ toasts ])roposed ; and a great many speeches made. The visit of the professors being of a marked kind, it attracted the attention of all the students, and they formed a circle, and stood round them. Air. O’ConneH’s health was the first and only one proposed, and Mr. AVhitehead was then called on to speak to the toast. 31. Is there any other person witli whom you have communicated on the subject who was present at the time, and who would be likely to have a recollection of the occurrence? — No, except those who arc now Homan Catholic priests, and many others who have left the College, like myself. 32. A'ou have de.scribed this meeting as a sort of feast in the College? — Yes. 33. In what way was this feast permitted, or how did it originate ? — It was communicated to the students that his KxcelUncy the Lord Lieutenant had ordered the examinations Origin of feast. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 185 to be taken ofV tliat winter, ami liad also ordered wine to be sn])])lied to them for a feast; that everv mess wonld, therefore. fj;et three bottles of wino ; and that we had permission to hold this feast. Wo then, all of ns, subscribed a sum of money — and we sent to Dublin for the other things, and the College ke])t ns in hot water. 34. What was the object of the feast ; what was it to celebrate ? — It was on the occasion of the visit of the Lonl Lieutenant. 35. As the representative (jf the sovereign ? — Of course ; we were all drawn up to receive him at either side of the gate, and a ])rocession was formed ; we went to the e.xamination- hall in procession, and an address was presented to the Lord laentenant, to which he replied. He then went round, accompanied l)v his aidc-de-cam]), to see the College, and left. Then it was told to us, that he had ordered us to be supjdied in this manner with wine. 30. At what time in the evening did you as.scmble for this feast? — I should say it was about five o’clock. 37. And the feast continued from five o’clock till what time?— 1 should say till eleven or twelve at night ; 1 do not remember precisely ; but the usual time of retiring to bed was ten o’clock ; 1 cannot say ])Ositively now whether the time was e.xtended beyond that hour, but to the best of my belief it was. 38. ^Vhen you sat down to this feast was any dean pi-escnt? — As well as I remember, there was not. There was a great de])arturc from the usual order. At dinner and other meals there was perfect silence ; and the dean always attended, and walked u]) and down ; but here there was no silence ; we all spoke, and sang songs, and j)roposed toasts, and made speeches. 39. Had you been drinking toasts and making speeches before the Vice-President entered the a])artmcnt? — Yes. 40. One of the students proposed the health of Mr. O’Connell ; not one of the professors? — I cannot say. 41. It was not the custom for the students to be allowed wine at all, was it? — No. 42. Was it the fact, that several of the students were a little intoxicated by the wine? — No; 1 am sure they were excited, some but slightly, and some a good deal. 43. How much wine had been allowed? — Three bottles to every eight; but as well as I remember, it was reported, and I had some reason to believe it was true, that some managed to get more wine than was ordered. 44. How did the feast break up; were you dismissed by any of the authorities of the College, or did you retire? — I thiidc one of the monitors, or one of the subordinate authorities, had said that it was time for us to separate. 45. Are you aware whether there was any feast in the common room of the professors? — I cannot say ; it is very likely there was. 46. You have stated that Dr. Montague was pi’csont on that occasion? — I do not say positively that he was, but to the best of my belief he was. 47. Did you hear afterwards that any fault had been found with that speech of Dr. Whitehead ? — No ; but I know very well that we often repeated it when walking together ; as we thought the sentence sounded so •well. I recollect that we got the words of the sentence by heart, and it was one with which we all sympathised ; we thought, as some said, it would be of use to us afterwards. 48. From what you knew of Dr. Montague, do yon think he was a man likely to pass over an occurrence of the kind you have described? — 1 wish to speak of Dr. Aloatague with a great deal of respect ; I do not believe that he would willingly do any thing that he believed to be bad or wicked. 49. Do you think it likely that he would pass over a sentiment of the kind you have described, holding the situation that Dr. Whitehead did? — I cannot say; I think that Dr. Whitehead would not have made use of expressions that would be likely to call for a reprimand from his superior. 50. Was that sentiment not likely to call for a reprimand from a man like Dr. Montague, judging from ■^vhat you know' of his character ? — I consider Dr. IMontague to be a man of excellent moral character, and a man of a kind heart, but his political sentiments, at the same time, may have been as strong as those of Mr. Whitehead. 51. Did you ever know' him express any political sentiments in the College? — No. 52. Y"ou have no reason to siqjpose that his political sentiments were as strong as those of Mr. Whitehead? — No. 53. It would have been his duty, W'ould it not, to check any ebullition of the kind you have described ? — I think so. 54. He would have failed in his duty if he had not noticed it, would he not? — I am not asserting positively that Dr. Montague w'as present. In that case it is possible that the W'ords may not have reached him, but it is very likely that they did. Tliere are monitors a|)pointed, one to every nine or ten, I think, and they were supposed to have reported every thing objectionable; it is tlieir business to do so, and to see that there is not the slightest departure from the rules of the College. When the bell sounds no student was allowed to speak to another after that time ; and if it happened in the passage or in the halls, that they see any student speaking to another, tliey would tap him on the shoulder and remind him of the departure from the rules. 55. At -what time did yon hrst mention this matter publicly to any body ? — I cannot say ; I have frequently made mention of it to persons. 2 b lS//( October, IS.')-'). 1 ^ Rov. ,r. O’Callagliaii. Object of. Dui'atioii of. Quantity of wine allowed. T)r. Whitcliead’s speech. tVliefher likely to be overlooked by Dr. Montague. 186 MAY^’OOTII COMMISSIOA^ 18th October, 1S5:3. Ilev. J. O’Callaghaa. Joined tlie Estab- lished Cluircli ten years ago. Mentioned occur- rence at first seven years ago. Other instance of manifestation of feeling. Student arrested for seditious language. Mr. Hawkes speeches. Taking of oaths of allegiance. Nature of Mr. Hawkes’ f-peeches. 56. 'When ditl you first join the Established Church? — About ten years ago. 57. It was about eighteen years ago when Avhat you have described occurred? — Yes. 58. Have you mentioned this publicly to friends or accpiaintances ? — Yes, I liave. 59. 1 do not mean recently ? — I recollect having mentioned it six or seven years ago to the Ilev. Mr. Dallas, 1 am sure, as tar back as seven years ago. My attontion was called to it in consequence of being asked by parties interested in Maynooth to describe the manner of living there, and any thing that might have occurred to me while there : this drew my attention to all the circumstances of my course at Maynooth. 60. lYas it within your knowledge as having happened whilst you w'ere at Maynooth, or did yon ever hear it spoken of amongst the students, that on the occasion of Mr. O’Connell going down from Dublin westward, a portion of the students at Maynooth had collected upon the top of a hay-stack and cheered him? — I do not recollect having heard that. 61. Did Di\ Montague on that occasion send for them, and publicly reprimand them? — I do not recollect having heard of the occurrence at all. 62. Have you any other circumstance to mention illustrative of the same feeling? — I know that a hatred of England and of Protestantism was the strongest and most pre- dominant feeling among the students at IMaynooth. 63. On what occasion had the students at Maynooth an opportunity of exhibiting to one another, or in the presence of one another, that sort of feeling ? — On the occasions on which the walk-days were wet ; for instance, every IVednesday was an idle day, and when it happened to be wet, the students assembled together, as they had nothing to do after a certain time of the day ; I recollect one student, who I was informed and believe (for I was not in the College at the time,) was ai-rested in the College for seditious language made use of at meetings which took place in some part of Ireland. He was (as I was told) bailed before the Duke of Leinster ; and I heard this person myself frequently give specimens of the oi’ations that he had delivered ; and I could swear solemnly that if he had made use of half the same abusive language against any Homan Catholic saint that he did against the Queen and Her Government, he would have been expelled immediately. I never heard that he received the slightest reprimand ; on the contrary, 1 know that he was a great favourite with the professors and students in general. 64. ’\Yas this language within the knowledge of any of the authorities of the College? — It was within the knowledge of the monitors. 65. They ought, therefore, to have reported it to the deans? — Yes; had they deemed it reprehensible. 66. Do you recollect in what class the student was to whom you have referred? — In one of the theological classes. ()7. He was not a Dunboyne student? — No. 68. What was his name ? — ILuvkes. 69. From wdiat part of Ireland did he come? — I think, from the county of Kerry. 7 0. What has become of him since ? — 1 never heard. 71. Do you know whether he was ultimately ordained or not? — I have not heard; I know that we frequently called on him, as an amuseinent, to make speeches, which he was very fond of doing ; and he would get on any thing that presented itself, and would deliver those speeches for half an hour, and they cheered him, just as if he had been making a speech at a public meeting. 72. AYas that in the play-ground? — Yes; or in the corridors and halls. 73. What opinion did the students hold respecting such speeches in connexion with their oath of allegiance ? — -They very much approved of them. 74. Did the oath of allegiance ever occur, do you think, to the mind of a student at Maynooth ? — I do not know that it did ; but 1 think even if it had it Avould not be any impediment to their entertaining those feelings. 75. You took the oath of allegiance, did you not? — Yes. 76. In what form was that oath administered ? — The practice w’as, to go before the Assist- ant-Barrister in the open court to take the oath, and we went supplied with a few testa- ments. The gallery -was cleared for us, and the oath was administered by a person reading from a parchment below. He would read two or three words to the students, who, in one voice, repeated the same. Then he repeated one or two more words, and those the students again repeated, all speaking at the same time, so that nothing could be heard but a confused hum of voices. 77. Was not it the Clerk of the Peace who administered the oath? — I think so. 78. Before the Assistant Barrister of the county? — Yes. 79. The oath is not administered to each individual separately ? — No. 80. The usual way of administei'ing the oath is 'what you have described, is it not, when there is a number of people present ? — I believe it is. 81. Had they a copy of the oath before them at the time? — No. I hoard a student who had his hand on the same book swear the very opposite of the oath of allegiance. 82. AYith respect to Mr. Hawkes, can you give any specimen^ of the treason that he spoke ? — I cannot. I only recollect that his speeches were very violent. 1 must say that they were not any source of gratification to me ; he was a very rude person, and I, for one, was not very fond of attending to what he said. 1 know that he was frequently speaking so, but I cannot furnish any specimens. 83. AVere they treason, or were they sedition ?— If I said treason, perhaps I did not attend properly to the distinction between it and sedition. I illNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 187 84. Then you retract the charge of treason? — J do certainly, if I advanced it. 85. It was not a threatening of the life of the Sovereign ? — No. 86. Was it inciting to make war against tlie Sovereign, or to insurrection ? — No, not with force and arms ; hut it was sj)eaking Avith disres[)ect of tlio Protestant Church, of the Queen, and of the way in which England had wrenched poAver and property from Ireland, and the manner in Avhich the Irish j)eopIe had been crushed, and the Avay in Avhich the priests had been treated, and the cruel hiAvs Avhich had been enacted against them. 87. You mean iu former times? — Yes. 88. Were the students in general acquainted Avith the Statutes that Avere draAvn up by the Trustees for the government of jlaynooth ; Avere they read to you, for instance ? — 1 have no recollection of being made ac([uainted Avith the Statutes of the College. 89. \_The \3th clause of the \Sth chai)ter of the Statutes [Ante Apjj. p. 27] ivas here read to the ^vitnessf\ Were the students reminded of this Statute by the deans? — 1 never remember having heard those Avords before. 90. Are you aAvare that by the practice of the College the laws or statutes are required to be read over by the President, in the chapel, at the commencement of the academic year? — I do not remember to have ever heard them read. 91. IiiAvhat form did the students subscribe the oath of allegiance ? — They assembled in the room of the hotel in the toAvn, and Avrote their names in a book or paper. 92. In Avhose custody does that book remain ; does not it remain in the custody of the Clerk of the Peace for the county ? — I cannot say. 93. Did you subscribe your name in that book before you took the oath? — No ; subse- quently. 94. Was the student of whom you speak as having been arrested and bailed before the Duke of Leinster ever tried ? — I think not, as Avell as I remember ; indeed I do recollect having heard that there AA'as some interest made in some Avay Avith the prosecutor, and that the charge had not been carried out. 95. When it AA’as brought under the cognizance of the Duke of Leinster, he must have been privy to that compromise of the oflence must he not? — I cannot say. 96. You have stated that it was the practice in the refectory, at the ordinary meals of the students, to preserve silence ? — Yes. 97. — It was ahvays the practice to read the Bible? — Yes. 98. In what manner AA^as it read, and by whom? — The students of the Logic Class read, as well as I remember ; I Avas in that class, and I read in my turn. 99. In Avhat language is the Bible read ?_In English. Immediately before dinner there is a visit to the chapel, Avhen the students prostrate themselves before the consecrated Host, and remain so until the dean repeats a jjortion of a hymn, Avhen they proceed at once to the dining-room. The moment a certain number are assembled there, the dean, if present, and if not, the senior monitor, says grace, a short Latin prayer, and then the person whose turn it is, reads a chapter of the Bible from the pulpit. While he is so engaged, from the slamming of doors and the noise and confusion of servants bringing in dishes and hurrying to and fro, not a Avord of the chapter from the Bible can be heard or attended to. In fact it Avas quite understood that Ave need not put ourselves to the trouble of speaking loudly or distinctly Avhen Ave read the Bible, because Ave Avould not be heard ; Ave, therefore, husbanded our voices for the subsequent reading when the dean would come up and make a signal that we were to speak more loudly. A chapter of the Bible was read first every day at dinner ; but Avhen there was still, and perfect silence, “ Lingard’s History of England” Avas read ; and at the end, a chapter of the IMartyrology Avas read in Latin. Then there was perfect silence, and every Avord of that Avas distinctly heard ; but I can safely say, that at the beginning of dinner, in consequence of the noise, the Bible could not be heard, and all that Ave troubled ourseh'es to do when reading AA’as to cry out in a loud voice, “ The end of the chapter.” 100. Did it often happen that grace was said by the monitor and not by the dean? — Not often— sometimes. The dean AV'as generally present. 101. Do you think that the arrangement aa^is made of reading the Bible first, in order to prevent its being heard ? — From my knoAvledge and experience noAV (I ansAver according to my conscience) of the opposition of the Church of Rome to the Word of God in every respect, I believe that it Avas inade Avith the vieAv of its not being heard. 102. Had you a Bible Avhen you Avere a student at Maynooth ? — Certainly not. I did not know any student Avho had ; nor did I hear a chapter of the Bible read in any way but this at the beginning of dinner. 103. You had no opportunity of reading one yourself? — No ; I neA'er had one. 104. Were you asked whether you had a Bible when you entered? — No. 105. Were you asked AA'hether you had other books? — Yes. 106. Did they see those books or take your word for it ? — I think they took my Avord. 107. Was not there a Professorship of Sacred Scripture Avhile you Avere at Maynooth? — There was. I think the third year’s divines attend for an hour every Saturday, and that they are examined in Latin. I have heard them say that it is in the Commentary of Maldo- natus and Menochius, not in the context that they Avere examined ; it was what the com- mentators said they were required to knoAV. 108. In Avhat class Avere you? — In the first year of theology. 109. They had no lectures iu Sacred Scripture? — I do not recollect that they had at that time. 18t/i Uctuher, 1853. Rev. .1. O’Callaelian. Not treasonable but seditious. Oatli of allegiance. Case of the student arrested and bailed before the Duke of Leinster. Reading of Bible at dinner. ImperfeetlA' heard, and why. Witness believes (from present know- ledge and experience) that above arrange- ment was made to prevent Bible being heard. Witness never pos- sessed a Bible. 2 i 2 188 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. Octoher, 1853. 16. Kvv. .J. ()’Call;i,u:lian. Not aware of rule tliat each stuilent shoulil possess a Bible. Books lent by students to one another. I.eft college at nine- teen. Scriptural instruc- tion by Dean. Cause of witness changing his faith. Entrance examina- tion. Greek Testament read at school. Witness, ■when at school, directed to burn his English Testament. Had no copy of New Testament at i\Iay- nooth. !Mode of conducting divinity lectures in class. 110. was the Professor of Sacred Scripture then? — I think tlie professor then was tile Rev. iMr. Di.xon, the present Roman Catholic Primate. He held a double professorship. He was Professor of Sacred Scripture and Professor of Hebrew. 111. Is there not a rule at iMatmooth tliat each student should he furnished with a Bible? I am not aware of any. 1 know that 1 was not furnished with any Bible. 1 12. And you never knew of any student in the house who had one ? — I know that Avhen Ave were going to take the oath of allegiance 1 was endeavouring to get a Bible or a Testa- ment, and 1 could not ])rocure one to be sworn on. 1 1.3. Is there not one always in court ? — Yes ; but Ave Avere to be sworn together, and it required five or si.x to sivear us on. 1 recollect the Clerk of the Peace distinctly, Avhen he saAv us managing to put a hand each on it, took up the book Avhich they swear the Avitnesses on and flung it up into the gallery, so as to enable us to take the oath with greater ease. 1 14. Used the students of the same diocese and class generally to knoAy what books each other possessed? — Yes. ll.u. Hid they use to conyerse about their little libraries? — Yes, sometimes. IK). Did they lend books freely to each other? — I think there was very little lending. 1 do not know that they had any to lend, except the “ Path to Paradise,” the ” Imitation of Christ,” by Thomas a Kempis, and the “ Key to Heaven.” “Liguori” was a very favourite book, and the “ Glories of Mary.” 117. Those AA'ere the religious books. M"hat books for your classes had you? — We all had the same hooks for the classes. Those Ave never lent, l)ecause every one had them. 118. Wlien the student entered each class? — He got all his books together when he entered the College, as Avell as 1 remember. I may be mistaken. No, he did not get the theological books until he began his theological year ; then he Avas given them together. 119. You left the College at about nineteen, did you not? — Yes. I AA'as very young when I left it. 120. Had youthen had no instruction in Scripture at all? — No; the only scriptural instruction 1 had Avas the occasional repeating a portion of Scripture by the dean, Avho attended night ])rayers, and delivered a little lecture of his oavu, and in this lecture there sometimes came in a portion of Scripture ; but it was always said in Latin, though the rest of the lecture AAms delivered in English. 121. It was not the reading of the Scriptures that induced you to change your faith? — No; but because I lost faith, first, in the doctrine of transubstantiation. I did not believe that God Avas really and substantially present in the sacrament. I j)rayed frequently to God to direct me, and lead me to knoAV the trutli about it. 122. Did you say that you Avere admitted into the second class of humanity ? — No ; into the logic class. When 1 entered, humanity Avas the first year ; rhetoric the second ; logic the tliird ; and Avhen I Avas examined I Avas put into the logic year. 123. You Avere not examined as to any portion of the Greek Testament, were you? — Wlien I Avent there I was taken into the paidour, and the professor o])ened a Latin book, and jAointed out a place AAdiere I Avas to begin; and a Greek book, and said, I Avas to begin there and end there. I Avas examined in Latin and Greek. 1 am sure that the Greek book taken Avas Longinus on the Sublime ; and the Latin Avas the Annals of Tacitus. They found by my answering that I had sufficient knoAvledge of Greek and Latin, and it Avas not necessary for me to go through the Humanity Class, or Rhetoric Class, and 1 Avas put in the Logic Class. 124. Had you read the Gospel of St. John in Greek ? — Certainly. I read it at school. 125. With Avhat portion of tlie Ncav Testament Avere you ac(]uainted, in the original Greek, as having read it Avhen you entered the First Class of Theology ? — 1 had at school, read the Gospel of St. John and the Acts of the Ajiostles. 12(5. Had you a Greek Testament? — Yes; and 1 remember Avhen I Avas reading the Greek Testament at school, and got an English Testament to help me to translate it, I mentioned it to the Roman Catholic priest, and he told me to burn the English Testa- ment ; and I did burn it, I regret to say. I mentioned it in confession ; and he said, Avhat a nice thing it Avas for an ecclesiastical aspirant to be making use of so bad a book. I had borrowed the l)Ook from a class-felloAV of mine, and I Avas obliged to burn it, and try to translate as Avell as I could Avith the help of my lexicon. 127. Had you not any copy of the Ncav Testament in any language, Avhen at Maynooth, in your possession ? — Certainly not. 128. J)id not the Professor of Theology, Avhose lectures you attended, occasionally refer to the Sacred Scriptures, in illustration? — No; except the sentences that occurred in the tract. 129. Those sentences Avere all in Ijatin, Avere they not? — Yes, all in Latin. 130. The reference, of course, would be to the Vulgate ? — Yes. 131. Was it the custom of the class to take doAvn those sentences in any way, and for those AA’ho had copies of the Vulgate, to refer to them, so far as you know ? — I do not remember. 132. The students had not copies of the Vulgate Avith them, in the class, to refer to them? — In any class that I Avas in they had not. 133. Did you take down notes of the lectures ? — Sometimes. 134. Was not it required that you should do so ? — It was required that we should ground ourselves, as to a certain portion of the book that was marked out, and be prepared to ansAver the questions put to us upon that portion. The professor Avent into the pulpit; he MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1 189 attoiulod twice in tlic day, and iniglit call any one he ])lcascd in the class, and with a short jn'otace in Latin, he proposed the subject lor the time, and then he would examine by syllogism, and ])ut any argument he pleased, or ask a (piestion : sui)])osing, “ Quid est Ecclesia?” what the Church is; then 1 gave the delinition of the Church, as it was contained in the hook. 135. Do you rememher what that definition was? — “ Ecclesia est cnetus hominum viato- rum, sub regimine legitimorum ])astorum, (piornm primus est Romanns I’ontilex.” As well as 1 remember, that was the delinition of the Church according to Delahogue. 13fi. What was the treatise in which you were lectured? — “ De Ecclesi.'u” 137. Was that a treatise in dogmatic theology? — 1 think so. 138. It was one of Dr. Delahogue’s treatises, was it not? — Yes. 139. Wore you not lectured in moral theology as well ? — No. 1 attended no theological lectures hut those connected with the treatise that was then proposed to he learnt. 1-10. Is there any other fact relating to your studies or the discijdine at IMaynooth, that you think it important to mention ? — I thought that the entire drift and design of the teaching went to make a person give up all his independence, and he moulded and ground into the recipient of what he was obliged to entertain in s])ite of his opinions. That, I think, is what principally disgusted me as regarded studies and discipline, that I could not entertain any one manly and independent feeling of my own ; and that every thing there 1 must receive at the ipse dixit of a teacher, without having any reason assigned, or being permitted any liberty of thought. 141. Had you any religious instruction, as distinguished from theological teaching ? — Yes, the night prayer anti the morning prayers. In the morning there was a sort of form of ])rayer, the same always repeated, and at night it generally varied. The dean generally at night delivered a lecture himself, lie sat down on a bench and lectured morally, as distinguished from theologically, for about a quarter of an hour. 14'2. Did you ever hear any allusion made to the duty of citizens, as well as those of priests; for example, obedience to the laws, and obedience to the state?. — I never heard the subject mooted, or in any way inculcated on the students. 143. Did the religious instruction comprehend as well the subject of the duty of a man towards his neighbour ? — Yes, as well as I rememher, there was a good deal of the duty of man towards his neighbour, and the practical duties of life spoken of. There was a book which treated a good deal on these subjects, “ Challoner’s Meditations,” which was a good deal read when the dean was not prepared or willing to deliver an address himself. 144. That might be called the moral training of the individual? — Yes ; the training and teaching in this respect appeared to bo excellent, as contained in the book that was read. 145. Did you get so far in the subject, “Do Ecclesia,” as to consider the power which the Church possesses? — No ; I went in an early stage of the treatise to the professor, and informed him that I intended to leave the College. I told him not to “call” me, and I did not prepare any thing. 146. Were you a pensioner in the College? — I entered as a pensioner, but after a short time I got a free place, and got back a certain sum of money that I had paid in advance. 147. How long did you remain after you told the professor that he was not to call you? — I remained there, I shoidd say, three or four weeks, wdiilst a correspondence was going on with my father. The President said, that I might remain as long as I pleased. He treated me with a great deal of kindness. He walked and talked a good deal with me, and he said he respected me very much for what I had done. I remember I was looked on with suspicion by some of the students, as having been a spy, when they did not know exactly the actual reason why I was walking with him. I had been very wretched, and I rushed into the room, and I said, “ I come to resign my place ;” and he said, he thought I had done well. 148. Was your correspondence permitted to go on freely. Were no letters stopped? — I do not know what letters may have been stopped. The letters were all handed to the dean, at supper, and I had no reason to suppose that any were stopped. 149. Were they open or sealed at the time they were handed to you? — Sealed. 150. None of them were read afterwards by any of the College authorities ? — I cannot say that they were. I remember that I was one day summoned into the parlour where the professors were assembled ; a servant came for me, and I was handed a letter by the Presi- dent, and was asked to read that letter ; I opened and read a portion of the letter aloud, while they stood by ; and then they said, “ Stop, stop,” and they took the letter from me; the letter was not for me at all, and they found that it was not. 151. That was the reason that they took it from you? — Yes, finding that it was not for me. There was a person in the College whose name sounded like mine, and they found that it belonged to him, but the letter was put into my hand, and the seal was unbroken, and I was ordered to open and read it aloud, which I did. 152. Do you think that the reason was, because it was doubtful to whom the letter was addressed? — No ; my impression w^as, that they suspected that the letter came from some doubtful or dangerous quarter, and that a student was carrying on a correspondence that they thought unwarrantable. 153. Was that the only occasion on which any letter was read, to your knowledge, to the authorities? — Yes, that was the only occasion. 154. Did your fellow students know that you had altered your opinions respecting the doctrines of the Roman Cathohe Church? — Yes; some did. 18//( October, IK.'i.'j. 16. Rev. J. O'Callaghan. Definition of the Church. Witnes.s's ojtiiiion of entire drift of teach- ing. Religious instruction. Instruction in prac- tical duties of life. Teaching in this respect excellent Conversation with President on leaving. Correspondence— no reason to suj)pose interference with. One instance of letter being read to college authorities. 190 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. I8th October, 1853. 16. Euv. J. O’Cullaghan. Not treated unkindly by fellow students in consequence of cliange of oiiinioii. Witness passed through Trinity College. Moral and religious teaching of deaus satisfactory. As to possession of Bibles by students. Custom of association among co-diocesans. Tlic Bible. Beading of, at dinner. Uncovering at the sacred name. 155. Were you treated unkindly by them in consequence? — I was not. 156. Tliey did not refuse to associate with you ; did they ? — Certainly not. 157. Did you talk about your doubts and ditiiculties with any of the students? — Yes, a good deal with some of them. 158. How soon did you join the Established Church after leaving Maynooth ? — I should say four or live years afterwards. 159. Did you pass through Trinity College? — Yes; I studied there for two years. 160. Did you enter Trinity College as a Protestant? — Yes. 161. Did you enter immediately alter leaving Maynooth ? — No ; a long time afterwards; I had not completed my course ; I was ordained before I finished my studies at Trinity ; I was not required to finish ; 1 was recommended for honors, and got two premiums in my two years there. 162. In what year did you enter Trinity College ? — Perhaps eight years ago. 163. VvTio was your tutor ? — ilr. Dixon. 164. Wliich of the two Mr. Dixons was your tutor ? — The Pev. Robert V. Dixon. 16.5. By whom were you ordained ? — By the Bishop of Tuam. 166. In what year? — In the year 1848. 167. Before you had finished your studies in the College ? — Yes. 168. Do you speak the Irish language ? — I do. 169. Bearing in mind the intention which you had when you entered Maynooth College, I namely, to enter into Holy Orders in the Roman Catholic Church, and the state of mind in which you were before any doubts presented themselves to you, were you satisfied with the amount of religious instruction which you received there ? — I was not satisfied with almost any thing since the first day I entered Maynooth. 170. You stated, did you not, that the moral and religious teaching of the deans as con- tradistinguished from the theological course was very satisfactory ? — Certainly ; there was much that was moral inculcated, and the books that were read were all books which contained a good deal of moi’ahty and practical devotion in the Roman Catholic sense of the word. 171. You were asked whether the other students had Bibles ; what did you state ? — That I did not know. I suppose there were students in the College who had, but I was not acquainted with them. Our acquaintance was very limited ; the students of each diocese were obliged to confine themselves to those of their own diocese; and to walk with each other when they had most leisure. 172. Did you learn that from tradition, or did any of the College authorities give you that direction ? — I think the monitors told us that was the custom ; it was understood that the reason of it was, that as there were different degrees of mind and capacity amongst the students of each diocese; some more enlightened and intellectual, and some stupid and uncivilized, by having the students of each diocese together, there was a medium of con- versation kei)t up, so that the superior minds could not go off into any thing that the authorities of the College would think da«igerous. 173. In your time did the students at all visit each other’s rooms ? — It was contrary to rule if they did. I 174. Was the practice observed of not doing so? — I think so, generally speaking. , 175. You had not opportunities of ascertaining whether the other students had or not 1 Bibles in their rooms ? — I do not know that I was ever in the room of any student but my own. I had not one myself, nor was 1 required to have one. There was a Bible in the ' reading desk of the dining-room, which was common to every person. 176. Was it in English or in Latin ? — In English. 177. Was it read at aU?— Yes, as already described. 178. At what time did the student, whose duty it was to read the Bible in the refectory J have his dinner? — After the others had been dismissed, he remained behind, and his I dinner was brought to him. I 179. The practice of reading the Bible, looking at the mode in which it was performed, i was considered not so much a privilege as a disagreeable duty ? — We always regarded it as a disagreeable duty; the clatter of the knives and forks; the noise made by the servants; the size of the room, and the length of time we were required to read, made it a very un])leasant duty indeed. 180. Was there any thing peculiar that you observed during the reading of the Scriptures at dinner ? — There was nothing peculiar in the reading of the portion of the Bible, except that the student, knowing that he would not be heard distinctly, and anxious to husband his voice for the long subsequent reading, did not take the trouble of reading articulately or aloud, but he held his voice in, so that he could not have been heard. 181. Were there any occasions on which the students were obliged to rise, or bow, or kneel ? — Whenever the sacred name of Jesus was mentioned, the students, who always wear their caps at dinner, all took them oft', and to take them off had to throw down the knives i and forks, the clashing of so many knives and forks falling upon the large jjewter plates I made a very great noise. I know it was the custom sometimes, and I am ashamed to say I have done it, to bring in the name sometimes where it did not actually occur, but where it came in naturally, for the purpose of getting a pause, and perhaj)s also of causing a clatter and a noise. I do not mean the Scriptures, for there were other books read, and at night always the Imitation of Christ, by Thomas a Kempis. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1 to the reader in the pulpit, and uj)on that sign, ho began to read a Latin l)Ook, called the JMartyrology. When he came to the last sentence the ivhole of the students kneiv that it was the last sentence, and they stood uj). 183. You stated, did you not, tliat during the time tliat the Sacred Scripture w'as being read, there ivas generally such a noise from the entrance of the servants, and the knives and forks and plates, that it was very difficult for the students to hear? — Yes. 184. Was the practice to which you have referred of removing the cap Avhen the name of Old Testament read our Saviour Avas mentioned observed, then hoAV were they enabled to observe it if they did dinner. not hear the name ? — I do not knoAv that the name of the Saviour cA'er occurred ; it was not the Neiv Testament, it Avas a part of the Old, the jirojihecies, either of Isaiah or Jeremiah. 1S5. Was it in the reading of the Martyrology that tlic name of our Saviour Avould occur? — Yes; and in reading the Imitation of Christ, at supper. I think the name did occur occasionally in other books also. 18G. Was the noise to Avhich you have alluded altogether pi’oduced by the servants and Noise necessarily the students themselves? — It was the inevitable consequence of the period ; the students duuns that had to go to the chapel immediately before dinner. And having remained there for a foAv minutes prostrate, adoring the Host, the dean repeated the conclusion of a Latin hymn — reading “Tantum ergo Sacraincntum, V encremur cernui, Et antiquum documcntuni. Novo codat ritui and the short Latin prayer that follows it. When those last words Avere uttered, the students all rose to go to dinner, and as soon as a certain number Avere assembled, grace was said ; others, more pious, had remained behind, still adoring, very devoutly, the Sacra- ment, and a succession of these persons Avould be coming for a considerable time, making a noise Avith their nailed shoes on the flags, during Avhich time the chapter in the Bible Avas read. 187. No part of that noise was made by taking off the caps? — No. 188. Did the students Avear their caps in the lecture-rooms? — I do not remember that. 189. Did they Avear them in the study-halls? — Yes; I recollect noAv that they did not Avear their ca])s in the halls Avhile being examined, but they did wear them in the halls while they Avere studying. 190. You stated, did you not, that you entered the Established Church about five years after yoAi left Maynooth ? — It Avas about that ; six years, perhaps. 191. During that time did you resort to any place of Avorshij) ? — Very seldom. I some- times, Avhen from home, did go to a Eoman Catholic church or chapel. 192. Where were you residing during that time? — Sometimes in Dublin, and sometimes in Cork. 193. In Avhat occupations were you engaged during that time ? — I AA^as for a portion of Occupations of wit- the time bound to an attorney ; I gave up that because my father, Avho Avas once wealthy, became poor; all he had Avas sold off, and I Avas not able to continue in that profession. 194. How long Avere you bound to an attorney? — About a year or so. 195. During that time were you in Dublin? — Occasionally. 196. When in Dublin, did you resort to any place of worship ? — Sometimes I went to His religious liabits church, and sometimes to chapel, and sometimes I did not go to either. I am sorry to say that I had \"ery little regard for religion then. 197. Had you at that time made up your mind as to embracing the Established Church ?_No. 198. IIoAv long after you had communicated your change of oj)inion in Maynooth did you leaA'e it ? — I should say it Avas three or four Aveeks. 199. Is there any thing else that you would wish to add?^ — No. 200. Do you happen to remember who were the persons in office at the time you College officers iu entered — the deans, the President, and Vice-President ? — Dr. Montague Avas the President, ’"^itness’s time. Dr. Renehan, Vice-President ; Mr. Macnally, the Prefect of the Dunboyne Establishment ; Dr. OTIanlon, Professor of Second Year’s Theology ; Mr. M'Guinness, Professor of the first year; Dr. Whitehead, Professor of Logic; IMr. Furlong, Professor of Rhetoric; Mr. Russell, (as well as I remember,) Avas Professor of Humanity; Mr. Tully, Professor of Irish ; Mr. Gaffney was the Senior Dean, and Mr. Derry aaus the Junior Dean — he is the present Roman Catholic Bishop of Clonfert. 201. Who Avas the Bursar? — Mr. Fenelly. 202. Have you any doubt that the deans AA^ere present at the dinner to which you have referred ? — I do not think they were. 203. Have you any recollection of hoAV many professors were present at the dinner ? — Three or four. 204. In the evening, Avhen the speech Avas made? — Yes; I recollect that Dr. Renehan was present, he Avas called upon to sing. 205. Did you know a student by the name of MattheAA' Kelly, who is noAA’ one of the professors in Maynooth ? — I do not recollect him ; I could knoAV but A^ery few of the students because of the restrictions. 192 MAi™OTII COMMISSION. 18t/i October, 16 . Bi‘v.,1. O'Calbsrhan. Circumstances which led to witness’s doubts respecting transubstantiation. Mode of administer- ing oath. 17 . Rcv.'WaltcrLce, D.D. Has charge of junior house. 206. M^as lie from your diocese ? — Certainly not. 207. Do you rememlicr the names of the students from your own diocese ? — Yes, 1 do; Mr. Keardon, .Mr. Leader, ilr. O’Mnllane, Mr. iMeagher, Mr. iMichael Harry, &c. 208. You mentioned, did you not, that you heard the oatli of allegiance, wlien administered, interpolated by one of the students ? — Not so much an interpolation as an alteration, sub- stituting a negative for an aftirmative. 1 heard this person say distinctly — “ I take this oath with equivocation and mental reservation,” instead of “ without.” AVhen I look hack to the first doubt that ever suggested itself to my mind about the truth of any of the Homan Catholic doctrines, 1 remember it was on the Sunday subsequently to that, when I saw this person go to the altar, and receive what 1 lielieved to the body and blood of Christ. The first doubt that ever flashed througli my mind was this — was Cod really in it '? 1 was dis- gusted with the mockery of an oath that I saw this person enact a few days jireviously ; and that was the first doubt that ever occurred to me, which doubt went on, though 1 endea- voured to combat it, always increasing. 209. Was that the only instance of any interpolation or alteration of the oath that came under your notice? — Yes. 210. Was it in your jiower, on that occasion, to hear whether all the students, and if so, ill ivhat way, the students interjiolated the oath ?■ — I do not think that I could have well attended to the voice of more than one. 211. How many were present on that occasion ? — About sixty. 212. Did the whole of them take the oath at once? — Yes. The clerk read a few words, and we waited till he had done so, and then we all uttered the words together. 213. There were sixty, in all, sworn? — Thereabouts. 214. Vfere they sworn in batches, or the whole sixty together ? — Five or six would stand holding the hook in this way, every person with his right hand on the hook, and another batch had another book, and so on ; the clerk waited till they had so arranged themselves as to hold the book, each with his liand on it ; and the Clerk of the Feace took a book below, and flung it rather contemptuously up towards the gallery. When they were so arranged, the Clerk of the Peace said below, ” Gentlemen, are you ready?” and when a person said, ‘‘ Yes,” he uttered the first words, repeating two or three words, saying as much as he thought yve could bea,r in mind, and then we repeated them, and so on. It aU ended together, and we all then, headed by the dean, proceeded to a room in Nolan’s hotel, in the town of Maynooth, and every person then came up and signed his name to a paper, as liaving taken the oath of allegiance. 215. Was it a roll of parchment or a book? — As well as I remember it was something like a sheet of paj)er. 216. Was it lieaded with the form of the oath? — I have not the slightest recollection. 217. Was any person in attendance, except the dean, at tlie time you signed? — 1 am sure not; only tlie dean and tlie students who had taken the oath. 218. In whose custody was the paper brought. M ho had it? — 1 do not recollect. 219. Do you recollect whether any body was at the table, near the paper, or taking charge of it? — Yes, the dean. 220. An\' one besides him? — I do not recollect any one else. 221. Were there any persons with you in the gallery, except those who took the oath? — None but the students. 222. IVhere was the dean ? — I tliink he stood below, near the bench. 223. Are you able to say whether all who took the oath went to the hotel? — I am sure they did. 224. Are you sure that nobody went and signed who had not sworn ? — 1 am; I do not think it possible, from the discipline and the regularity that is observed, that any student could have gone in without he had come out from the College again, and in that case he would liave been reported. I scarcely deem it possible. 225. Do you recollect whetiier any other magistrate, besides the Assistant Barrister, was in court when the oath was taken? — I should say that there were five or six persons on the bench. 226. IVere you able to judge, from their appearance, whether they were magistrates ? — I should say they were. [T/tc IVitness withdretv^ The Piev. Walter Lee, d.d., e.xamined. 1. "When did you enter Maynooth College? — In 1826. 2. How long did you stay there ? — I was a student for eight years, during one of which I was absent. My course, properly speaking, was seven years, at the end of wdiich I was appointed to the Dunboyne Establishment, but I preferred going to Koine, and 1 1 ’einained there for two years and a half. 3. Wore you then pursuing your studies ? — Yes. 4. In what College were you at Koine ? — In the Irish College. 5. What part of the building have yo'u charge of at i\Jaynooth ? — At present of the junior side of the College. ^IIXUTl'LS OF EVIDENCE. 193 6. Yon liavo tlic special cliargc of a portion of tlic specific religions duties, have you not, of tlie students? — Yes, 1 have. 7. Yon give tliein specific religions instruction? — Yes, in conjunction witli the otlier deans. 8. In tlic evening ? — lleligious instruction is sometimes given in the ovening.and repeated in the morning for the purpose of meditation ; at otlier times in the morning only. 9. You are exclusively confined now to the junior classes, are you not ? — l>y the Statutes I am supposed to have charge of all ; hy an arrangement, 1 am ])rincipally confined to the junior classes, hut not so as to exclude my attention being directed to the senior classes. 10. You visit the rooms of the students, do you not? — Yes. 11. At regular times? — According to the Statute the rooms are to be visited twice in a fortnight. That Statute was made at a time when the number of the students was not so considerable as it has since become ; a large ])roportion of these lived in dormitories, in which there was a greater temptation to violate the rule of silence ; subsc(]uently the buildings were extended, and the number of rooms multiplied. At tbo time of my appoint- ment I ascertained that the ]>ractice of tl)e deans was to visit the rooms, sometimes once, sometimes twice, in a fortnight. I have visited the rooms of some of the students two or three times in a week, as circumstances might re(piire ; but the habits of the generality of the students are such as to render such frequent visits unnecessary. 12. I suppose you visit those who have lately come, and whose habits you are less secure of, more frequently? — The rooms of the junior students are visited more frequently by the deans. 13. You take notice of any disorder in the rooms ? — Yes. 14. Do you cast your eye over the books they have upon their shelves ? — Yes. 1.5. You have been dean since 1837? — Yes. IG. Do you perceive any sensible change in the number of books possessed by the students in recent years? — I should say, since the increase of the grant, in 184.5, there has been a considerable increa.se in the number of books with such of the students as have a taste in that way ; but with all, or nearly all, there has been an increase. 17. You make no objection to books of general literature, if they are of a wholesome kind ? — No ; on the contrary, the students are afforded an opportunity of purchasing books of this description. 18. Do you enter at all into the subjects of their studies, or the hooks they are reading, and privately give them any advice iqton the subject? — Not more than this: if, during the time that the classes are going on, I observed a student reading books not connected with his bu.siness, to an extent that would divert him from his more serious studies, I would advise him not to do so ; if it were a book not right for him to read, I would take it from him. 19. Do you discourage the reading of any books that have not an actual bearing upon the studies they are engaged upon ? — The rule seems to imply that the students will confine themselves to such books as arc recommended by the professors; but it is not cousidered binding during vacation time, or on recreation days. 20. But one man will of course make greater progress in the work of his class, so as to have more leisure than another? — Y'es; but the quantity of matter to be studied is such that the more distinguished students arc those who apply more closely to the subjects treated of in the lectures. 21. Does the visit to the students’ rooms lead to friendly intercourse and advice upon conduct and manners, or is it mei-ely a formal visit? — It is an official visit, but the inter- course that takes place on the occasion of such visits is usually of a friendly character. Until this year, in the far greater part of the building I had charge of. there was no room that contained loss than two or three students, and 1 always felt a delicacy in speaking to one student before the others, on matters relating to his conduct : when 1 was going round, if I observed any thing deserving of notice, I directed their attention to it. 22. Would you consider it a part of the duty of the dean to become acquainted per- sonally with the students, and to take an interest in their characters ? — Yes, it is his duty ; he should make it his business to know their characteis. 23. And to assist them in the formation of it as fiir as opportunities offer ? — Certainly. 24. Since you have had the principal charge of the junior house, do you find that the per- formance of your duty is facilitated by the small number brought under your care? — My attention, instead of being spread over an immense establishment, containing about 350 students, is now confined to half that number, who occupy a much more limited extent of building; consequently there is less difficulty in acquiring a knowledge of their habits and characters, and in maintaining the discipline of that portion of the College. The facilitv of personal intercourse with the students is also greater. 25. You have stated that it is very important that each student should have a separate room? — I consider it so. 26. Do you think it contributes a good deal to the formation of the character of a man having the command of his own room ? — It affords a greater facility for study and recollec- tion ; in such a large community it contributes to the general order of the College during the hours of business, and by that arrangement a better opportunity is afforded the deans for intercourse with the students during the time that they study in their rooms. 27. That is not yet the case, completely, is it ? — Not at the junior side. 28. Will the present construction of the building make it possible to give to every student a separate room ? — If the interior of a portion of the buildings at the junior side were 2 c J8f/< Octnhfr, lS5:j. 17 . Kev. Walter Lee, n.n. But not e.\clusively. Visit.s to students’ rooms. Increase, since 184."), in number of books possessed by students. Aitvicc as to studies. Nature of visits. Greater facility a.s to ilisciplinc in junior bouse, on account of smaller number of students. Advantage of having separate rooms. 194 MAYNOOTn COMMISSION. 18/^ October, 1853. T?cv. Walter Lee, d.d. Suggestion as to fur- ther division of the College. That scheme quite practicable. Inconvenience of large numbers dining together. General duties of witness. Witness’s course of moral instruction. Practice in other colleges for superiors to dine with students. Adoption of that practice in Maynooth would require recon- struction of entire college system. remodelled, tlie mimbcr of single rooms could Le increased to an extent that might be sufficient, still some addition to that ]>art of the College tvould, in my opinion, he necessary. 29. Do not you think that treble rooms are better than double rooms? — I should say not ; where tltere are tliree, if there is one student whose habits are negligent, it makes it difficult for the others to keep the room orderly. 30. When two young lads are put together, are they of necessity from the same diocese ? — By no means. The list is called publicly ; the students select the rooms they choose : they may take them in any part of those portions of the building which are appropriated to their respective classes. 31. The arrangement as to the students being put into the same rooms, arises from accident, does it not ? — Y"es ; if two choose to go together, and a third party do not take the second place, they may occupy the same room, but it is an accidental arrangement. 32. Y^ou do not associate two together who had better be together? — No, it is loft entirely to their own free choice. 33. You mentioned just now that you had a greater facility in the junior house, with respect to disciphne, from the smaller number that you have to manage; do not you think that by dividing the senior classes a similar result would follow ? — I am decidedly of that opinion. 34. Do you think it very important, for their moral training, that the number should be broken up into smaller divisions? — I think so. 35. From your experience, do you think that it is practicable to make that arrangement with little trouble ? — I think it quite practicable to divide the senior side into two sub- divisions. The new building is inconveniently near the old buildings for that purpose, but not to such an extent as to render a subdivision impracticable. 36. To carry out that arrangement, do you think that an addition to-the play-ground would be necessary ? — Certainly; the students of each division should have separate play-grounds. 37. IVould you provide them with a separate I’efectory? — It would be desirable that they should have separate refectories. 38. That could be done with facility, could it not? — Even at present it is possible ; but when a new chajiel shall have been built, it could be done with much greater facility. 39. Do you think that the number in the principal refectory now is too great? — Y"’es, I think so. 40. lYhat disadvantages do you think result from so large a number being assembled at dinner ? — There are two : the difficulty of ascertaining, with precision, who are absent from the public refectory is greater than it would be if the number were less, particularly during the winter, when the number in the infirmary is considerably increased, and it is important that the dean should know who are absent without permission. Minor disorders, and, perhaps, on the part of some, an incipient tendency towards disorders of a more serious character, would be brought more under the notice of tlie dean. Besides, a subdivision, if made, should be as comj)lete as possible, extending to the refectory, as well as to the play- grounds. 41. Have you anything to do with other students than those whose rooms are under your special visitation ? — I have a general superintendence of all the students at the senior side. I attend the senior refectory one day in the week; when the studies commence in the public halls, the dean at the junior side visits them, from time to time ; and it is under- stood that he wiU assist the deans at the senior side, when his co-operation is required. 42. Are the students, whose rooms are under your visitation, more especially under your charge than the other students? — Y"es, I am specially charged with them. 43. Do they come under your special teaching in giving moral instruction? — This is the first year I have been in charge of the junior side. The plan I propose to follow, is to com- mence a regular system of instruction, and to carry it out in a way suitable to them, viz., to take up the rule of piety, and to explain all their duties, as candidates for the priesthood, and the connexion that those have with the proper discharge of their duties in after life ; for it is the observance of the rule that will prepare them to be, what they ought to be as priests. 44. You are acquainted, are you not, with many other Catholic colleges besides that of Maynooth ? — I know something more or less of some of them. I have never been a resi- dent in any others than the College of Maynooth, and the Irish College in Rome. 45. Are you aware whether it is the practice in other colleges for the professors and deans and superiors to dine with the students? — I believe it is generally the practice, that the superiors dine with the students, and the professors also in the colleges in which the pro- fessors are resident. That is the system generally adopted on the Contment in ecclesiasti- cal seminaries. 46. It is not the practice in Mavnooth ? — No; it was the practice at Maynooth at the com- mencement of the College, when the number of the students was not considerable, but it was given up. 47. IIow many years ago was that practice abandoned? — Many years before I entered ; the precise year I cannot say. 48. Have you formed any opinion, as to whether it would be desirable or not to resume that practice? — My opinion is, that taking that practice by itself, it would not be desirable. 49. But do you think that there are alterations of a similar nature which, as bringingthe superiors of the College more into personal contact with the students, it might be desirable to adopt ? — I think that the whole system of the College should be reconstructed, in order mXUTKS OF EVIDENCE. 195 to carry out tliat principle, as it is carried out in other colleges. The principle upon -which the College of Alaynooth was founded was quite of a different character, and all its arrange- ments are in keeping with tliat ])rinciple. 50. AVhat is the princi])lc or character in the system of IMaynooth, whicli creates an impediment to the adoption of that practice ? — 'fhe princijde is the residence in the College of a large staff of professors, who are not charged with the discipline in any way. That 1 consider to he one. And I conceive, that either the su])criors of the College should he in constant habitual intercourse with the students or they should not; they should form apart, as it were, of one family, or there should he a distinction. If you adopt the principle that they should form one family, and take their meals together, then that intercourse should pervade the whole system. If you do not adoi)t that, but take a part only, I think incon- venience Avould follow. 51. From what you know of the two systems on which colleges are usually conducted, the ilaynooth system and the system i)ursued in other colleges with regard to tlic com- munication between the superiors and the students, which do you thiid< the most desirable system? — I decidedly prefer the system of free intercourse between all the priests resident in college, with the students. 52. Do you think that such a system is more calculated to form the minds, and hearts, and dispositions of the students than the other ? — 1 am of opinion tliat it is, when properly carried out. 53. Do you think that it would be impossible, or very difficult, to introduce that system into Maynooth, supposing it were thought desirable ?■ — -The government of the colleges, in which that system is successfully carried out, is absolute : the directors and professors arc appointed by the superior, and are removable by him at -will ; for the students, the will of the superior has the force of law. The government of these colleges is patriarchal, but absolute in a high degree. The government of IMaynooth is a constitutional government ; the professors are appointed by concursus, and neither they nor the superiors can be removed by any College authority, except for an offence to which the penalty of deposition is annexed. Every student, so long as he observes the rules of the College, is as independent in his position as a superior or professor. Colleges of the former description are small ; usually governed by religious congregations, and the Avhole community lives togetlier en famille. In colleges of the latter description, the distinction of grades is more marked, and each member falls into his own place. I doubt very much if the system adopted successfully in smaller colleges, governed by the Sulpicians, and other similar bodies, would, in a country like this, work as well as the system that has been adoj)ted at Maynooth. AA'hen the habits of a community are fully formed, it is very difficult to change them ; and an attempt to intro- duce a system, of which freedom of intercourse forms a part, and without wliich that free- dom of communication would not long continue to exist, would, in mj'^ opinion, be attended with considerable difficulties, and its ultimate success be very doubtful. 54. How long does the dinner last; is there any special length of time fixed? — Usually half an hour. 55. Is there a certain limit to the time ? — There is no limit fixed by the rule : what it prescribes is, that the students leave the refectory as soon as grace after meals has been said. AVhen all have nearly done, the sign for reading the Martyrology is given, at the conclusion of which, all will have had time to finish. 56. A portion of Scripture is read at the beginning of dinner, is there not? — Yes. 57. Do you find any inconvenience or difficulty in hearing the Scripture, arising from the entrance of students to their dinner, who may have remained a little longer at chapel? — No, I do not say grace until all the students, morally speaking, are in the refectory, and the great mass of them in their ])laces. AA'hen gTace is said, they sit down, and the reader does not begin xmtil all are in their places. 58. Does general solemnity and order proA^Jl during the time of the reading? — Yes; except the noise necessarily made by the knives and forks in so large a community. 59. Do not you find any inconvenience from the servants coming in backwards and forwards, when tlie Dible is being read ? — No ; that is not the time at which the servants move much aboixt ; for this reason, that every thing the students require is laid upon the table before they come into the refectory. Some movement occurs when a joint of meat happens to be underdone; in that case application is made to the dean to have it better done. 60. Are they not waited upon by the servants? — Yes, but in consequence of all they require being on the table before tliey enter, the attendance is very simple. 61. With regard to the allowance of beer, is a certain quantity allowed to a certain number of students, or is it supplied to each student as he calls for it ?— There is a certain quantity allowed for every eight students, which is divided into two portions, each for four students. 62. Supposing one of those students does not feel disposed to drink his beer, the other three would have a lai'ger quantity, would they xiot ? — They would. 63. Supposing one of them is disposed to drink early in the meal, is he allowed to drink in advance, so as to leave the others little or no beer? — I think that public opinion prevents that ; xvere it to occur frequently it is a matter that would probably be represented to the dean. It often happens that some of the students prefer taking water. 64. Then the allowance goes to the others, does it not ? — They can take it if they think proper. 65. The system of communication between the superiors and the students, which vou 2 c 2 18(/i October, 1655. 17 . Rev.tValtorlxe, u.u. Why. System of free intcr- cour.se between .sTiperiors and stu- dents preferable. Impediments to its introduction at Maynooth. Dinner. Reading of Scripture at dinner. 196 may:n^ootii commission. 0"li.!in-, ISOO. lie V. Will tor Lee, d.d. As to clolhinj; ju'ofessors " ith authority of ileans. No (leans in St. Snipice. Intercourse between superiors and stu- dents in hours ot‘ reereatiou. Difficult}^ of intro- ducing suggested changes. stated you would prefer as the system for rlio College, do not you tliink that it would be an advantage that the professors of the College should exercise the authority, though they have not the ordinary duties of the deans ; that is, in case they met a Student doing wrong, they should reprehend him as they passed hy? — I did not make this state- ment absolutely. I said that, considering the two systems, in the abstract, I should prefer that to which allusion is hero made; hut in reference to its practical introduction in our College, I am unwilling to express a decided oj^inion. 66. Would it not form a part of that system which you stated you preferred ? — No ; I alluded to the system on the Continent, where all the professors are fully charged with the discipline, which could not he the case in our community. 67. Arc there not deans in those colleges, as well as professors ? — There is only a Pre- sident and a Vice-President. There is no dean at St. Siilpice, for example, or in any of the Sulpician Colleges. 68. Do you think that this kind of intervention would he an advance made towards tho system which you have already spoken of? — It would be an a])proach towards it. 69. Do you think it would be desirable, also, that the professors should communicate with the studeirts in tlieir hours of recreation, if it suited their convenience ? — With regard to men who have had their habits formepointed with a different under- standing as to the nature of their duties, having a disinclination for such a system, and obliged to commence it suddenly', might naturally be expected to become discontented, and the evils that arise in a community from discontented members arc serious. 74. Suppose for a certain time they' dined with the students once a month, and for a certain time once a fortnight ; that they' attended once a month the religious observances of the students ; tliat the general duty imjiosed upon tliem was to assist the deans in maintaining^ discipline; and that no more was exacted from them than might be reasonably required from persons called upon to change their mode of proceeding with the present students, could not the sy'stem be gradually introduced ? — As to dining and attending the daily religious duties, that, if done at all, should, I think, be done completely and systematically. 75. If it is of ])aramount importance to IMaynooth, do you sec anv sufficient reason in the reluctance of the professors for not adopting it? — I feel a great delicacy in offering an opinion upon matters connected with the professors. 76. Do you think it would have a tendency' to advance the spiritual character of the students, and generally the whole spiritual character of the community, that the professors should attend to the daily religious observances, presenting an example to the students themselves, and benefiting, to a certain extent, the whole house by a participation in those duties? — I think it a good system where it is applicable, but it is not the system of our College, and it would be difficult to introduce it. lAIINUTICS OF EVIDENCE. 197 77. The present system of disfi|)liiic is carried out, is it not, from tiic first admi.ssion of a student up to the last year of Ids l)oiiuj; ui»on the Dunijoyne Establishment? — Yes. 78. At the close of the period in the Dnnboyne I'lstablishment he may become a ])rofessor, and if he ]>ass at once from the position of a student upon the Dnnboyne into the position of a professor, do yon then s(je any thing in his previous training or habits that would be inconsistent with Ins joining in the system that has been spoken of? — 1 think there is; because to fall into that system freely and cordially, a person should have been trained under the .system himself. 79. A student is himself trained to all of these observances; he, himself, mixes with the students, dines with them, and joins in all the religious ob.servances ? — If you put him at once into a community where the same system is carried out he will go on in it, if his inclinations leave him to I’ollow that sort of life. bO. Then his own ju’evious habits and trainings are calculated to prepare him fi)r such a system, are they not ? — To a certain extent they are ; but I must say, that although some would not, I think others would, re([uire some special training for the purpose. 81. Would he re(|uirc any thing more than to see the other professors do what he was called upon to do? — lie would require something more than the example of other ]>rofessors. On the Continent those who are destined to live under such a system are men specially selected for the ])urpose. or prej)ared for it by a novitiate, and not all those who have been thus trained are found to jiossess the qualifications re(|uisitc to ijcrsevere in it. The chairs at Maynooth being filled by concursus, the literary and scientific qualifications of the candidates are the first and most important consideration. 1 think that habits and dispositions, in addition to those that are reejuired to teach successfullv, would be necessary to attempt the introduction of such a system, or to carry it out if introduced. After a concursus at iMaynooth, a priest from the mission is as likely to he appointed as a Dnnboyne student; the habits of community-life are easily lost on the mission, and not so easily recovered. lieside.s, inconvenience has been felt in colleges on the Continent from allowing proiessors, not fully charged with the discipline, freedom of intercourse with the students, as some of them, if so disposed, would have it in their power to create an unsound public opinion, for which they are not easily held responsible, and of which not they, but the superiors and the community at large, would feel all the injurious cflects. 82. Is there any difficulty in hearing the portion of Scripture that is read during dinner- time, owing either to the size of the room, the number of the students, or the noise that is made? — At present, in the new refectory, I do not think that all the students can hear it. The old refectory was much more easily filled. As to the number who can hear the chapter of Scripture, that depends very much on the reader; some have a stronger voice, and read with greater distinctness. 83. Is it generally heard by the majority of the students so as to be understood ? — In the refectory of the junior students it is heard by all ; in the refectory at the senior side it is heard by the majority, when there is a good reader. 84. Do you think it, generally, is heard ? — In the old refectory it could be heard by th.e great majority of the students, and, 1 think, generally by all. 85. Yon have stated that no young unpractised reader could fill the new refectory so as to be heard by the majority ? — That is my impression ; but I would like to make inquiry as to that. Experiments are being made in the new refectory, in order so to place the pulpit that the reader may be heard by as many as possible. 86. Do you think, practically, that that particular time is a very edifying o])portunity for reading the Scriptures ? — The object of the reading is this, to give the minds of the students occupation during a very material action, and tliercby to train them not to be too much occupied about what they are eating and drinking. I do not see any objection to the reading of the Scripture at dinner ; it is the practice of a great many religious communi- ties. During the principal ]jart of dinner, how'ever, it is another book that is read. 87. Do the students in i\Iaynooth read the translation of the Bible at all ? — Theydo. 88. lias any student a Bible in Maynooth ? — I think a more natural question would he. Is there any student who has not ? If there be o)ie who has not, it is an accidental e.xception? 89. Has that been the case the whole time in your recollection of Maynooth? — It has ; there were two years and a half that 1 was away, and I found the system on my return in existence, the same as when I left it. 90. Do you remark it if you find a student without a Bible ? — Certainly; I should ask him how it happened. 9 1 . When you were a student wonld it have been remarked by the dean visiting your rooms if he had fouud a student unprovided with a Bible ? — He would not from not seeing it ; it miglit be in his desk. 92. A\’hat ai-rangement was made for sni>plylng the students with Bibles ? — An arrange- ment was made before I entered, which has been substantially carried into effect ever since; it was this ; in order to insure every student having a Bible, the Trustees ordered the Bursar to purchase a large number of an edition that was printed by Coyne, in Ca])el-street, I believe principally for Maynooth College; and they made a regulation, that every student coining to the College, who had not brought a Bible with him from home, should be obliged to take one from the Bursar, and the price of it formed part of the deposit money. That was before I entered, in 1826. \HtIi Or/olvr, 1S3.T. IkCv. Walter Lee, u. d- Si)ccial trainin? on the Continent ior system adopted there. Difficulty of hearing Scripture read at dinner, o\ring to size of refectory. Object of reading: Scripture at dinner. Possession of Bibles by students. Arrangement for supplying students •svith Bibles. 198 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. Ift/A October, 1855. 17 . llev. Walter Leo, n.i>. Duty of Bursar in that respect. Regulation enforced. Instruction in preaching ; Confined to junior classes ; Desirable for divinity students. Art of catechising. Exercises in com- position of sermons ; Criticisms on ; Instruction conveyed by. Exercise not per- formed more than once a year by each student. 93. Has that been ever since, so far as your knowledge goes, carried into effect, so that steps have been taken to ascertain whether a student lias a Hihle or not when lie comes, and if not tliat he sliould be provided with one? — It has ; on inquiring from the Eursar whether that regulation tvas actually carried into effect, I tvas informed that he asked every student, when he came, if he brought a Eihle with him, and if he had not, he supplied him with one. 94. IIow have they been supplied latterly ? — By the Bursar. 9.5. Ho you know whether any other jierson besides the Bursar takes notice of that matter ? — I believe not ; and the reason why the Bursar does so, is, because every student on entrance comes into contact with him in money matters. 9G. Is it the Bursar’s duty to see that every student coming to the College is su]q)lied with a Bible ? — Perhaps I should not say that it is strictly his duty to sec that he is su])pliod with a Bible, but he was formerly directed to do so ; and it is still the custom that he should sujiply Bibles to those who, before entrance, have not been provided with them. 97. You believe that the regulation is practically enforced? — Yes. 98. Is there any record kept of the persons to whom Bibles are supplied by the Bursar? — The amount paid by each student would show, I should think, whether he took a Bible or not; I do not know Avhether the Bursar keeps a special memorandum of the names of those to whom he supplies Bibles. 99. He could tell what number of Bibles he had sold ? — He could. 100. What arrangements are made in the College of Maynooth for instructing the students in preaching after they leave the College ? — Those who read in the Bhetoric Class are instructed in the composition of sermons ; those who read in the English Class also receive instruction on that subject. 101. Those who do not read in either class, you would infer, get no instruction on that subject ? — They get none, except from private sources. 102. Those are the two younger classes that you have mentioned, are they not? — Yes; and those who enter for logic are also obliged to read in the English Class ; in one word, all the students at the junior side, are obliged to attend that class for one year at least. Some few enter for physics, and some for divinity, and joining a class that has already gone through the part of the course in which that instruction is given ; they get none in addition to what they may have received before they entered. 103. Do not you think that the divinity students should be instructed in that duty? — Yes ; I think it would be desirable. 1 04. Is there any instruction given, or practice in the art of catechising ? — I am not aware that there is. 105. Do you think it desirable that there should be? — I do. lOG. Do you not think that it is a necessary part of the duty of a clergyman ? — Yes. 107. Without that he is not able to discharge the duties of a clergyman? — It would facilitate the discharge of a very important duty. 108. Are there any exercises in the composition of sermons? — There are four students appointed every Sunday during class time to preach sermons, but the divinity students are so numerous, that all do not preach during the year. The community is divided into four parts, that each preacher may have a portion of it, to hear his sermon ; at the end of the sermon, a student is called upon to give his opinion of it, and the j>erson who presides concludes with some observations on the sermon. 1 09. How long does that whole ceremony last? — I should say for the senior students about half an hour, or five minutes more, occasionally five minutes less. As to those who preach for the first time on the junior side of the house, their sermons are sometimes not quite so long. 110. How much of that half hour is occupied in criticism ? — About six or seven minutes. 111. Except those six or seven minutes of criticism, is there any other instruction than what you have mentioned in reference to exercises? — None. 112. Are those sermons always the composition of the students of the College? — I am quite satisfied that in some few instances they arc not ; and one of the reasons why I recom- mended that assistance and direction in the preparation of those sermons should be afforded, is that it would insure every student preparing his own sermon in a proper way. 113. No care is ajjplied to ascertain whether or not they arc the composition of the students? — None; the only check would be, that the person presiding, might happen to know the sermon ; on some occasions that was the case. 114. Do you conceive that the criticisms convey much instruction? — I am under the impression, that on the senior side, they contribute to form the taste of the students, and at the junior also, with this difference, that at the junior side, as it is the first time they preach, the criticism is of a very mild character, or it ■would discourage many. 115. How often does each student, upon the average, perform that exercise in the year ? — None more than once. IIG. Does it frequently happen that the students pass through Maynooth without ever performing that exercise at all ? — No ; as a general rule a student must do so once at least during his course. Eonnerly ■we had only two sermons on each Sunday, subsequently three, and there are four now, with a view of extending the opportunity of preaching to as many as possible. 117. How many sermons do you think you preached ? — When I was a student I pi'cached but once ; but at that time there were only two sermons on Sundays. i f MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 199 I 118. From what you know of the miml)cr of students and tlio number of sermons, can yon say tliat it regularly liappen.s that they do not preach more than once, or at most twice? — Tlie number of those who preach a second time varies in each class from one-half to three-fourths, according to the number of students that may be in the two divisions of the senior Divinity Class. 119. Can you state whether or not there is a very defective amount of exorcise in reference to preaching? — I think it would be a decided advantage to tlio divinity students to bo o.vercisod in the composition of sermons, exhortations, and catechetical instructions. If an arrangement were made by which every divinity student would comi)ose a few sermons each year, it ■would be a great improvement of the system, even though he were not to preach them. 120. Arc the students selected to preach, or do they preach, according to rotation? — They preach in rotation, according to the order of the list. 121. According to the order of their standing? — Yes. 122. flow long were you at the senior side? — Since my appointment until the com- mencement of this academical year. 123. During that time has the infirmary been always in the state in which it now is? — Substantially in that state. 124. Have any repairs been made in your recollection? — Yes ; the roof and other parts of the building have been repaired ; a water-closet and some baths were added to it. 125. How many baths are there in the infirmary? — A shower bath and a ivarm bath. There is a room in a part of the building between both the senior and junior houses where there are two portable baths and a shower bath, and there is a warm bath in the junior infirmary ; but the junior students, when they require baths, are usually sent to the bath- room of which I have spoken. 12G. What was the average number of students ■ndio in the cour.se of last Avinter entered the infirmary ? — I was not in the College last winter ; I was absent in consequence of ill health. 127. What was the number in the 'uunter before?— It varies very much Avith the season of the year ; I should say from fifteen to twenty Avhen the Avinter sets in. After the Christmas examinations, and during the cold weather in the spring, the numbers generally will run up to thirty or thirD^-five. 12S. Is there no accommodation for those fifteen to twenty or thirty invalids except the apartment Avhich the Commissioners visited? — The majority go there merely to spend the day; they sleep in their rooms, and have no other day-room but that alluded to; those who are seriously ill sleep in the infirmary, and when convalescent they dine in the rooms they occupy. 129. Is there any room except the one AAdiich the Commissioners saw there? — There is no other day-room. 130. How many sleep in the infirmary on the average ; what is the greatest number ? — From eight to thirteen in the senior, and from four to ten in the junior infirmary. 131. Occupying beds ? — Yes. 132. IIoAV many beds are there in the infirmary ? — In the junior infirmary there are ten, if necessary there may be twelve. In the senior infirmary there are twelve ; but there is a large room in Avhich three beds are sometimes placed : wlien it is crowded there may be about thirteen beds. 133. Is that large room the room that is occupied as a day-room ? — No; it is at the- other end of the corridor. 134. IIoAV often do you visit the infirmary? — That depends upon circumstances ; there have been times Avhen there Avere very fcAv there, and these Avith slight ailments. I con- sidered that, generally speaking, I or another dean ought to visit every day, or every other day. 135. Was there, in point of fact, a visit made daily? — There was no distinct arrangement betAveen me and the other dean that we would visit daily ; but the infirmary Avas Ausited very often ; if a student A\mre dangerously ill, we made it a point that ho should be visited daily, and often more than once during the day. 136. Were any inquiries made of each student as to his condition upon those visits? — With those who were confined to bed there AA^as, as a matter of course, a conversation ; with regard to those in the sitting-room, my ordinary practice Avas to ask them what Avas the matter, if I had not known before, and to make some general inquiries about the state of their health. 137. Was any care taken ; were they visited sufficiently often by the attending medical man ? — The rule was that one of the resident medical attendants visited every day. 138. Was any care taken to ascertain AA^hether it was necessary for him to visit more than once a day ? — The number of visits as a general rule aa’US left to the doctor himself, as being the most competent judge of theh necessity. I can state, from my own observa- tion, that he was remarkably attentive in repeating his daily visit to those Avho appeared to require special attention. If a student said that he was Averse, and expressed a wish to see the doctor, he Avas sent for by night as Avell as by day. 139. Or if the person attending him thought that he was getting worse ? — Yes. There is an infirmarian resident in the infirmar}", whose main duty is, besides the general preser- vation of order, to see that the students are attended to, and to receive their complaints ; and if he cannot remedy them he informs the dean. 18t/t October, 1853. Ivcv. Walter Lee, d.d. System defective in these respects. Students preach according to rotation. Tnfirm.'iry : — State of. Baths in. Number of Students in during last winter. During previous Avinter. Accommodation in. Visits of deans to. Inquiries made on visits. Visits of medical attendants to. Infirmarian ; — 200 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. ISth October, 1853. TT Kuv. \Valti‘rLep,i>.i), Duties of. Names of, for last five j ears. Wlictlier attendance on the sick satisfac- tory on the whole. Nurses. Yearl}' average of deaths in College. Gener.al character of complaints. Dr. Corrigan’s visits. Average of deaths, including those who leave College in ill health. Complaints by stu- dents as to medical atte.idancc. 140. Docs lie sleep in the inflrmaiT ? — Yes. 141. Does he spend the whole day in the infirmary ? — ITe ordinarily comes down to mass in the senior chapel, except on Sundays ; he hreakfasts in the infirmary, and he studies there ; he is not tliere during class time, but he spends the evening there. 142. lie has his apartments there?— Yes; he resides there. 143. There is always a ]>erson in the infirmary to resort to? — Y"cs; to whom a student can resort if he is not getting pro])er attendance. 114. dVill you supply tlie names of the infirmarians for the last five years? — Dev. John Dafierty, Dev. John Buckley, Itev. Timothy Murphy, Dev. John O’Deilly, Dev. James O’Kane. 145. Is it advisable that a student should he appointed to the infirmary? — I think it would he desirable tliat there should he an infirmarian ve.stcd with more authority than a student can he expected to exercise — not because the sick are neglected, but for the main- tenance of discijiline generally. 1 46. Do you think that the attendance on the sick is satisfactorv, taking it on the Avhole, as to their accommodation in the infirmary, and so on ? — Those wdio are seriously ill receive a great deal of care and attention — as much, in my opinion, if not more, than most people in comfortaldo circumstances can command, who are sick in their owm homes. Those who are slightly indisposed are afforded a groat facility of frequenting the infirmary. The want of a sufficient number of bed-roorns, and of a commodious sittiim-room, is often felt very much : the whole building is so dilapidated that it cannot be kept in the state in which it is desirable that an infirmary should be kept. 117. Is there a nurse there ? — Yes ; there are two women. 148. Are tliey active, capable people? — Whenever any student requires special attend- ance an extra nurse is engaged ; the attendance on those W'ho frequent the day-room might be improved. 149. Have there been many instances within your knowledge of contagious fever in the College ?— No ; those cases are very rare. 150. What is tb.e average number of deaths in a year at Maynooth ? — Since I have been there I suppose the average would be one death in two ye.ars; sometimes two or three years would elapse without any death. 151. What is the general character of the complaints amongst the students? — I should say that they are ordinarily colds, pulmonary complaints, headaches, and inllammatory attacks that arise from cold, 152. What arrangements are there for securing the attendance of the doctor at night if a student is taken suddenly ill, and is sleeping alone in his own room ? — The practice is this. The partitions arc of lath and plaster ; he knocks on the wall to the next student, if he cannot get up. If he is able to get up he knocks at the door of the next student, and tells him tliat he is unwell ; that student gets up to aj)prize the dean, and if necessary the doctor is sent for. 153. There is no sick bell ? — No ; nothing of that sort. l .')4. Are you aware wbat number of periodical visits the consulting physician who comes from Dublin, Dr. Corrigan, has paid during your time, on the average ? — He is required to visit once a month, and as oiteii besides as he is sent for by the resident medical attendant. 155. lias he, in point of fact, visited oftener than once in the month? — Tie has; when the attendance of the Dublin physician is required. Dr. O’Kelly sends for him. 156. How often has he attended within your knowledge in a vear. including the twelvo visits that he is bound to make ? — He has certainly made the monthly visits, how many in addition, I cannot say, but it is a special case when he pays an extra visit. 157. How often does he visit the College every year, according to your knowledge? — I cannot state the number more than to say that his extra visits are not numerous. 158. Do you think, from your knowledge of the College generally as dean, that the Dublin physician attends as often as is necessary, or that it would be desirable that he should attend ottener? — As to the necessity of his attendance I am not so good a judge as the resident physician, but I have no grounds to judge that his attendance is insufficient ; I do not recollect a case in which I could say that he ought to be sent for that he was not summoned. 159. You stated that there was not more than one death in a year, does that include the number who die at home, who go aw’ay in such ill health that they never return? — Certainly not ; some leave from ill health, and die out of the College. 160. Suppose you included them wdiat would he the average number of deaths at lUay- nooth ? — The average number of deaths was, as nearly as I can ascertain, betw'een three and four in the year for the last seven years. 161. Have there been comjdaints amongst the students as to the medical attendance or ! the medical advice ?— There was some dissatisfaction a few years ago, and the matter was , rej)resented to the Board. Since then there were no complaints of any moment brought ' under my notice. 162. What were the complaints then? — I think one was that the doctors sometimes I came at a time when thev could not be conveniently seen by the students, and that there ' was a difficulty of meeting the Dublin physician, except in the presence of Dr, O’ Kelly. 163. What has been done ? — In reference to the precise complaint, I never heard ; it MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 201 was a good wliilo after tlic complaint was made tliat I became aware of it ; the students made a complaint, and it went direct to the 'rrustees 1()4. Has anything been done to remove the cause of that complaint? — The dissatisfac- tion. so far as my observation goes, is diminislied. 165. Is the cause of it now removed ? — The attendance of the physicians is such as not to afford, in my o]>inion, any reasonable grounds of complaint ; and I infer, from the absence of any general complaint, that tlie cau.se is removed. 166. Is it not a [)art of the duty of tlie deans to see that medical attendance is ])unctually supplied? — It is tlie duty of tiie dean to see that those are promptly attendeil who might suffer from a delay; hut with regard to those whose ailments are slight, or those who would not suffer by being visited an hour earlier or an hour later, 1 do not think that it is the duty of the dean to regulate the attendance of the doctor. 167. In point of pr.actice, it is not a jiart of the duty of the deans to originate an imjuiry upon that subject? — I conceive it to he the deans’ duty to endeavour to procure for the students the medical attendance to wliich they are entitled by the regulation of the I'rustees ; beyond that it is not Ins duty to interfere, unless it became manifest that the attendance were insullioient. 16S. Do you not consider that you are in charge of the sick students as well as the healtliy students? — Certainly, as far as their conduct is concerned, and their essential com- forts, hut not for the details of their medical treatment, as they are in the hands of the ros[)Ousihle medical officers of the College. 16!). To whom does the medical man make his report every day respecting tlie students, or does he make any report? — He writes a list of those who are unwell, and who are to dine in the infirmary, and states what is to he provided for their dinner; that list is made daily. 170. To whom is that list sent — to one of the deans? — Two copies are made, one of which remains with the house steward, that he may know what to provide for dinner ; the other is furnished to the dean. 171. It is a report, simply with a view to their getting the food that is ordered for them ? — Not simply so, hut also with a view to inform the superiors who the invalids are. 172. The Fresident receives no daily re])ort upon that subject? — No. 17d. Who gives the students liberty to he absent from the lectures, in consequence of illness ? — All whose names are on the doctor's list arc exempted from attendance at the lectures ; those who are not on the doctor’s list get permission from one of the superiors. 174. Does any authority in the College learn that a student is privileged by his illness from attending lecture, exce])t through the list that comes to the steward? — The list is furnished to the dean himself, the steward keeps a copy of it. 17.5. There is no officer in the College to whom the students who are ill send in their names in the morning? — Tiicy must get permission to go to the infirmary from the dean. 176. Which dean ? — Any one of the deans ; hut the common practice is to apj'ly to the dean who presides in the refectory at breakfast. 177. Does he make any note of the name of the student who comes and says that he is ill ? — No ; unless it is a case that requires prompt or special attention, if so, I am in the habit of taking a note of it. 178. He takes no means by which he would he able to prosecute an inquiry, and see what becomes of that student, and how he is attended to on going into the infirmary? — He gives him permission to go to the infirmary, where he secs the doctor, who puts his name on the sick list, if he think it necessary ; I speak of those whose ailments arc slight ; those who are seriously ill remain in bed, and send word to the dean that they want to see the doctor. I T9. The dean jn-osccutes no farther inquiry, does he? — Yes; he goes to sec him, that he may he provided with the attendance that he requires. 180. Does he go to sec about that student particularly? — Yes; such has been my practice. 181. There is no report of the sick state of the house to the Fresident, or to any other authority, except the report to the steward? — The list which you call a report to the steward is also furnished to the dean ; no other daily report is made. 182. Is there any other report, daily or otherwise ? — Cases of serious illness arc reported by the doctor; when he judges it advisable for a student to go home, or that he requires special care or indidgence, he reports the case to the Fresident or to one of the superiors. 183. Except when he seeks leave to go home there is no report as to his illness, save that presented to the steward with regard to the dinner ? — Any serious case is, as a matter of course, comnumicated to the President ; besides, the doctor is spoken to from time to time about those who frequent the infirmary. 184. On what subject? — If I thought a student were particularly ill I would make special inquiry of the doctor regarding him ; hut the ailments of the great majority of those whose names are on the sick list are of such a nature as not to require any special attention from the dean. If I saw a student remaining in tlic infirmary, and not liaving anything apparently the matter with him, I would ask the doctor about him, especially if he were a student who was not attentive to his duties. 18.3. The question applies not to occasional observation, hut to the practice of making reports ?— There is no systematic reporting further than 1 have stated, hut it provides for all really important cases. 2 d \hth Octohrr, IS.'i'J. T'T Hev.P’ultcrLee, i>.i>. Duty of (le.Tn.=i jih to mejical atlcmliuice. Daily list of sick tiirnishacl by iiicilical attendant. Leave of absence from lectures. 3Iode of obtainini; permission to go to intirniary. iXo report besides daily list, e.xcept in special cases. 202 JIAYXOOTn COxMMISSIOJ^. ISth October, 1853. 17. Bev. Walter Lee, D.D. Mode of ascertaining students’ absences from class. No list of those absent from class through illness. Attendance of surgeon. Dr. O’Kelly decides as to surgeon’s attendance. Payment of surgeon. Advisable to have daily list of those in the infirmary, specifying com- plaints, &c., laid before President. As to spirit of disloyalty. 186. IIow does a professor know when a person is absent from illness that he is so? — Each professor gets, on the first day of class, a list from the dean of the students that will he in his class for that year ; he gives the distribution of their places in the hall, and on seeing a place vacant, he wonld become aware of the absence of a student. 187. The professor, by looking round tlie class hall, would be aware of the absence of some of the students? — Yes; and in the larger classes monitors are appointed to return to the professor tlie names of those who may be absent. 188. How does he know that the student is absent with leave or not? — Tic can know that only by making inquiry ; when I was a student, I have heard the professor ask pub- licly for students who might be absent. 189. And the answer was, he is sick ? — Yes; the cause of their absence would be assigned. 190. No list is sent round to the professors of those who are ill in the infirmary, and have had leave to be absent ? — No. 191. Nor are the deans aware of it, unless one asks verbally for leave ? — All are exempted from attendance at lecture for the remainder of the day on which their names are placed on the infirmary list, and from attendance at the first lecture on the following day ; that list is kept in the infirmary, for the inspection of the superiors, and a copy is handed to the dean at dinner time, that is about two hours after it is drawn up. 192. Ilut until it is handed to him at dinner, he is not aware that there are any absent with leave from class ? — From the list of the previous day lie knows who were absent with permission from the first class. By inspecting the list in the infirmar}', he can ascertain who liave had permission to be absent from the second class. 193. Is he then aware that the ])rivilcge extends to absence from class? — Yes. 194. There is no list kept daily showing who is absent by reason of illness? — The professors are supposed to make a note of such absence, with a view to the report they make to the I’resident. 195. They report the fact of the absence ? — This would naturally form one of the items of their report. 196. Is there an}’ list daily kept of those absent from class by reason of illness? — Unless the professors do so there is no such list kept, because some of those who are on the infirmary list are able and do attend class, although the fact of their being on that list would be sufficient to exempt them from attendance at class if they wish to avail themselves of it ; hence the professor alone can know vrho arc absent, in point of fact, by reason of illness. 197. The surgeon attends as he is required, and is paid for each visit, is he not? — Yes. 198. The attendances of the surgeon are few, are they not? — Serious surgical cases are not very numerous with us. The attendances of the Dublin surgeon have been more frequent of late years. 199. Who sends for the surgeon? — Dr. O’Kelly. 200. If it is at his discretion, how does it happen that he sends for him oftencr according as there is more money in the College ? — 1 am not aware that the change has been the cause of tlie increased frequency of the surgeon’s visits ; the attendance in former years was, I believe, not deemed sufficient. 201. Dr O’Kelly was the judge of the attendance before, and he is the judge of the attendance now ? — Yes. 202. Is there any complaint made by the students that the visits of the surgeon are not often enough ? — Surgical cases are not very frequent. I am not aware of any general complaint. 203. The surgeon is paid for each visit out of the funds of the College, is he not ? — Yes. 204. Do you think that Dr. O’Kelly is in a manner discouraged from sending for the surgeon?— -I think not. 205. lie has always sent for him as he thought necessary ? — I cannot say that ; for the President who resigned the very year that the grant was increased, although a most zealous and conscientious superior, was a great economist, owing to the exceedingly straightened circumstances of the College under the old grant. The surgeon brought the matter under the notice of the Ti’ustees, and since then his attendance has been more frequent. 206. Do you think that it wonld be advisable to present to the President, every day, a list of those in the infirmary, their names, and the complaints from which they are suffering, and any observation that might strike the medical attendant as being necessary, together with the hour at which the visit was paid ? — I think that would be a great improvement, and also useful for the superiors in the management of the discipline of the C’ollege. 207. Were you in the College in 1835 or 1836 ? — No; I left Maynooth in 1834, and I returned again in 1837. 208. Have you ever been aware of a spirit of di.sloyalty existing among the students ? — Never. 209. Have j'ou heard of their treating the name of the Sovereign, or their allegiance to the Sovereign, with disrespect ? — No. 210. Could such a thing be prevalent in the College without yon knowing of it? — I do not think it could. The only way in which it could manifest itself is in private conver- sation ; but I am satisfied that such a thing could not have been ])revalent in the College. 211. Do you mean with the knowledge of the authorities? — Yes. 2 12. Have you ever known a spirit of hatred to England to prevail among the students? — No. It is impossible to expect that students should not participate, to a greater or less MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 203 dogTCC, ill tho political feeling jircvalcnt among the classes from which they come, with reference to particular ministries or governments ; but this is a feeling very clifi’erent from a hatred towards England. 213. Do you remember the passage in the Statutes, “Si quis acerba partium studia cxcitavcrit,” ike. ? — Yes. 214. Have you ever known that rule broken, with the knowledge of any of tho authorities, with im|)unity ?- No; 1 cannot say that 1 have. There was one case in which there was a mention made of some few students having used strong language during tho time of tho great e.x'citemcnt tliat prevailed in 1847 or 1848 ; but it had nothing to do with the (piestion of allegiance, it had reference to party jiolitics. 215. Was it tlie subject of observation, so as to be looked to by tho authorities at tho time? — It did not come before them in a way that could be acted u|)on. 1 rather think it was mentioned with a view to direct their attention to tho danger of such a spirit. 21G. Wlien there were rumours of such a sjiirit being in existence, it was a subject to which attention was directed ? — It was mentioned as a subject of regret, and as one that ought to cause vigilance and concern. 217. If it had come to the knowledge of the authorities, would it have been repressed ? — Certainly, if it came in a way that was tangible. 218. Did that incident in the year 1847 or 1848, to which you have alluded, apjdy to some particular act, such as making a subscription ibr Mr. John O’Connell, or anything of that kind? — No ; I am not aware that any subscription to Mr. John O’Connell was ever attempted. An attempt was made to procure an address to him ; but, before it was presented, it came to the knowledge of the rrcsident, and was suppressed Ijy him. The circumstance to which I allude is, that it was stated that, during recreation time, some few students used violent political language, not directed, however, as I have already said, against the allegiance due to tho Sovereign. 219. But as soon as the rumour was alloat, attention was called to it, was it not? — Yes, it was not a case that came before me — it was another superior that 1 heard say so. I am under tho impression that it was some confidential communication made to him that such language was used, and that he could not make use of it more than to put tho superiors on their guard. 220. But he did do that ? — Yes. 221. And he mentioned it to you for that purpose? — Yes. 222. Did you perceive afterwards any traces of that spirit? — No, it never came under my notice. The only way in which that spirit could manifest itself would be in private conversation, of which I could have no knowledge. 223. Did you in any manner hear of a recurrence or of a continuance of that spirit ? — No. 224. Did you learn in any way that it occurred again ? — I do not remember that I did. 225. Your attention was called to the subject, and continued directed to it ? — Yes ; but I had no means of knowing. 226. No indications came to your knowledge of the existence of such a spirit subse- quently? — No, except in this way, that I may have heard it observed by some persons in the College that there was much more excitement than there ought to be. 227. Was it confined to that period? — Yes; and it passed away with that period. In one word, that general spirit of excitement that existed at that time all over Europe got in amongst those that were hot-headed in the College. 228. Will you state to the Commissioners whether the students, in any part of their training by the deans or the superiors, are impressed with the importance of abstaining from political agitation, and engaging in political disputes ? — The necessity of their devoting themselves to tho discharge of their clerical duties is impressed on them, and it is also impressed on them that, considering the number and tho very onerous nature of those duties it will require their whole time and attention to discharge them properly, and that they must lead a life of estrangement from secular concerns. 229. Is the duty of allegiance directly inculcated on any occasion, or in any ])art of their training ? — It is directly inculcated before they take tho oath of allegiance, which they take in the January following their entrance. 230. Besides taking the oath of allegiance, are any injunctions or instructions given to them in reference to the obligation of allegiance ? — The Professor of Dogmatic Theology is charged with that duty. The obligation of obedience to their lawful superiors, and to all legitimate authority, is inculcated by the superiors; but, in reference to allegiance specifically, I am not aware that there is, inasmuch as it would be speaking to persons about a duty of the importance of which they are already convinced. 231. Are there not other duties which are equally certain as that of allegiance, and yet are they not pressed upon them ? — Other duties are equally certain, but more liable to be departed from. In one word, tho conviction on the minds of the superiors is, that the students are loyal from principle ; and to exhort them to it formally, in the absence of any temptation to violate it, would apj)ear as if they had groundless suspicions of their loyalty. 232. Have you ever attended the students when they took the oath of allegiance ? — Yes, I have. 233. In what book do they subscribe the oath— one that remains in the possession of the College? — No ; they subscribe the roll of the Court, and get a certificate of having taken the oath of allegiance. 18/A Ortohrr, 1803. 17. Jiev. Walter Lee, u.D. Instance during 18-17 or 1848. Intended address to Mr. J. O’Connell prevented by President. No recurrence of that spirit. Passed away with tho excitement of that period. Exhortations to stu- dents as to devotion to clerical duties. Instructions as to obedience to supe- riors impressed upon them, but not alle- giance specifically. Why. Taking of oath of allegiance. 2 d 2 201 MAYNOOTII COM.MISSIOX. Ortobcr, 18 .jn. 17 . T{c‘V. U'iilter Lcg.d.d, Instruction ns to t.iking the oath. AIoiliii of administer ing. 2.31. Is the roll on parchnionf? — Yes; it is kept by the Clerk of the Peace for the county, and de])Ositcd, I understand, in the Courts in Dublin. 23.'). Is that Clerk of the Peace present when the roll is subscribed ? — Either he or his clerk is jtresent. 23(5. The students arc brought into the hall, and the oath is taken in oiien Court is it not ?— Yes. 237. Where do they subscribe the oath?— In the grand jury-room of the Court; the number is so gre;it. and as the sessions are going on, they could not convenientlv subscribe it in the Court itself. There is a room in which the jury assemble, and they adjourn there for the purpose. 238. Docs it ever hap]>en that they go to the inn to sub.scribe the o.ath? — Xcver. 239. How far back does your e.xpcriencc go? — I took the oath of allegiance in 1S27, and 1 subscribed it then in tlie Court-house itself — that is, in the room that I have spoken of. 240. How far does your experience go hack as dean? — I have heen dean .since 1837. 211. Has that been always the practice? — Although I have not always accompanied the students to the Court-house, I think 1 may say that I am quite certain that the roll has been always subscribed in Court. There is, however, a declaration at the end of the Regiila Pktatis to the efiect that the students do not belong to, and will not become, members of any secret society, which is signed in the College. 212. Does it not ever happen that the grand jury-room is occupied by other business ? — It never happened, to my knowledge. I have been there, from time to time, with students while 1 have been dean; but I have not gone out with them every year. Tlie students do not go to the Court until they receive a message from the assistant-barrister that he is ready to administer the oath, and thus it happens that the room alluded to is always disengaged when the students go there to subscribe it. 213. Do you attend on every occasion as dean? — Xot on every occasion. 211. The oath is administered to the whole body of students at once, is it not? — Yes. 21.5. With one Bible? — No ; they are all told to bring out their Bibles or Testaments. There may be one or two for each Bible. 216. There is no difficulty in finding Bibles in the College to bring out, is there ? — Not the least. 217. Do they take the oath in the gallery of the court or at the table? — They are generally in the gallery ; because the body of the court is full of jicople. 2 18. Do all of them take the oath at the same time, repeating the words after the Clerk of the Peace ? — All at tlie same time. 219. Have you ever seen a book supplied by the Clerk of the Peace to swear u])on? — I have, to some. On one or two occasions, through oversight, notice had not been given to the students to bring out their Bibles witii them ; many did it without being told. On that occasion tliere were several in the gallery putting tlieir hands on tlie same book, and one of the magistrates on the bench suggested to the Clerk of the Peace to hand up all the Testaments that were in the court. 2.50. To throw them up into the gallery? — No. 251. Are there as many as sixty students sometimes sworn on the same occasion ? — Yes. 252. Do you think that tire mode of administering the oatli of allegiance to the students is calculated to impress them with the seriousness of the obligation which they undertake ? — I think that it is. connecting it rvith the instruction which they get before they go out. 253. Did you receive any such instruction yourself? — Yes ; and I recollect distinctly that it left an impression on my mind that to take an oath, having all the conditions required, was an act of religion and of worship towards Almighty God. 254. Did you receive the instruction specifically with a view to this oath ? — Yes ; the oath was read with a view to explain the nature and extent of the obligation which it imposes, and to remove the erroneous impressions which young students sometimes enter- tain regarding it. It was also specifically explained that we were under a solemn obligation of allegiance before we took the oath ; but if our allegiance Avere violated after taking the oath, there would bo an additional sin against the virtue of religion. The year 1 took it it was the dean aa'Iio explained it, in order that the students Avould see distinctly their obligation — that they would know* the nature of the oath, and take it in a proper manner, and also with regard to the particular form of the oath, to remove any scruples they might liave. 255. Is it the dean now Avho offers that exhortation? — It is usually the President; the dean in charge of the junior students has, 1 believe, given it sometimes. 256. Would that be befoi'e proceeding to the court-house? — Yes. 257. Is this the mode of administering the oath — that the clerk of the peace, or the deputy-clerk, recites a certain portion of tlie oath, and then the whole sixty repeat that portion, and then the clerk of the peace recites some more words, and then the whole sixty arc supposed to folloAv him? — Precisely. 258. Is it possible, when sixty persons at the same time are taking the oath, that the clerk of the peace, or the dean, can hear distinctly the Avords repeated by those students, so as to knoAV Avhether they are repeating the actual Averds of the oath, or repeating other AA'ords ? — The only mode of judging of tliat is from the volume of voice that comes from that numficr of ])crsons speaking at the same time. 259. Are you of opinion, upon considering the point, that this mode of administering the MINUTES OF EVIDENX’E. 205 oath to sixty ])crsons at onco is not one wln'di may he attended witli a deviation fioni iho actual words, without oitlier tlie dean or the clerk bein'? able to ol)scrvc it ? — Manilestly tliero is a ])ossil)ility of it; hut it is a iixed i)rinci])le tliat whetlu'r they read it or not, or whether they kiss the hook or not, tlioy are hound hy tlio declarations contained in the oath, when they go tlirough the Ibrin of taking it, and attach their signatures to it. Ji' the intention of swearing were omitted, a ])erson would, hy so doing, sin against the virtue of religion, hut he would be hound to fulfil the contract he had made coram jwlice. 2(]0. Is this form of taking the oath the result of an arrangement made by the clerk of the peace or hy the College ? — It is not the result of any arrangement made by the College. They go out there to do what they are directed to do. 2()l. 1 )r 1 )elahogue lavs down this ])ro])osition in his treatise 7sVcfes<« — “Chiistus Potro et successorihus ejus ant Ecclesiie nullam concessit potestatem directam vel indirec- tam in Uegum temporalia; ])roindc(pie isti nuiupiam auctoritate clavium, etiam indirccto dejtoni possunt, ant eorum suhditi a lido et ohedientia illis (h'hita eximi ac dispensari;” so far as you are aetjuainted with the doctrine of the ])rol'essors at Maynooth, and the teaching and instruction of the deans, have you known this principle, to which your attention has been called in the proposition of Dr. Delahogue, invariably asserted by them ? — Invariably. 262. AVill goii have the goodness to state whether you have any reason to ap])rehend that a contrary princi])le, or a princi[)le in any degree conflicting with that laid down by Dr. Delahogue, is entertained by any of the students at Maynooth ? — None whatsoever. [ The Witness withdrew^ "Wednesday, IOtii October, 1S5.‘5. The Rev. Robert Ffrench WJtiiehead, d.d., Vice-President, examined. 1. You are the Vice-President of the College at iMaynootli '? — Yes. 2. You have furnished the Commi.ssioners with a list of those who have gone out as priests from Maynootli, stating at the same time that it is a list only of those who have been ordained in the College, and does not represent the whole number of priests who have studied in the College? — Yes. 3. Have you no means of supplying the difference between the numbers so returned, as ordained in the College, and those who have been ordained elsewhere? — No; 1 have no means of making an accurate return of the diflbrence of the numbers. 4. Would the list of sub -deacons accurately represent the number of those who have entered Holy Orders ? — The number of sub-deacons would come much nearer to the actual number who have studied in the College and become priests, but it would not accurately represent the entire number, and the reason is, that a number of young men are from time to time summoned by their bisliops to receive the order of priesthood elsewhere, though they have not as yet been promoted to the order of sub-dcaconship in the College of Maynooth. 5. Is there any means that you are aware of, by which the whole number ordained in Irelaiul for the Roman Catholic priesthood could be ascertained annually, either in the College or out of it ? — There are no means that I am atvare of. 6. You state that sometimes they are summoned to the priesthood before they obtain subdeacon's orders? — They are sometimes summoned to the priesthood before they obtain sub-deacon’s orders ; but they are then ordained sub-deacons before being promoted to the priesthood. 7. Does the same thing happen after they have obtained sub-deaconship, and before they have become deacons? — Yes. S. Among other recommendations you suggest the appointment of two additional pro- fessors, that of a Professor of Biblical Greek, and a Professor of Sacred Oratory; upon what grounds do you suggest that addition to the establishment of the College ? — I suggest the institution of a Professorship of Biblical (ireek, because 1 am under the inij^ression that the study of the Greek language is not so much encouraged in the College as 1 would deem desirable, and 1 think, that the institution of that professorship would have a tendency to make the students direct their attention to tlie study of the Greek language throughout the entire of their course ; and I further think that it woidd be very desirable to make them ]>arti- cularly familiar with that peculiar form, if I may call it so, of the Greek language, that is more closely connected with the New Testament. Then, as to the Professorship of Sacred Oratory, I likewise think that our students would, if such a professorship were instituted, compose their sermons much more in accordance with the strict rules of sacred oratory than they do at present. 9. The opportunities which they have now of practice in that department of their duties, are not sufficient in your ojtinion ? — They are not sufficient : the opportunities of practising, however, would hardly be increased, but 1 think it would be beneficial to subject that practice to additional supervision. 10. Do they read much of the sermons of the more eminent divines? — i cannot of my own knowledge answ'er that question satisfactorily, hut 1 believe they do. 11. Is any course of private reading connected with that branch of their studies at all 18y tho students, and used by them? Tliere is no person in the College that has for the last seven or eiglit yeai-s attended the sermons, I would say, more regularly than myself, and in the entire of that time, it has never struck me, that a single sermon was repeated entirely ; I never heard tlie same sermon twice, being tbe same from beginning to end : I have heard some, the greater part of which was the same as others that I have heard, but these were very few comparative!}'. 20. Do you discountenance that practice when you observe it? — Yes; I remember to have spoken about it to one person — a very excellent young man — on whose veracity I would place the most complete reliance, and he said that I was deceived in imagining that the greater part of his sermon was the same as a sermon which I said I had heard from another student. He told mo that he had gone to considerable pains to alter the sermon, yet he acknowledged that some parts were taken from the sermon of which I spoke. 2J. The number of sermons has been increased in the last feAV years, has it not? — Yes; there are four now on each Sunday. Four sermons on 22. Formerly there were only two, and at one time it was increased to three, was it ^ subsequently to four. 23. Within what time has it been increased to four ? — I cannot say, but I think it is ten or twelve years ago. 24. The four sermons that are preached on Sundays are not preached to tho samo audience, are tliey? — They are not. When any person fails, or when any person is not forthcoming to preach the sermon that ho is appointed to preach, then those wlio should have been his aiulienct) go to another hall to hear one of the other ju’cachers. 25. Does the merit of those sermons come into consideration in the concursus ? — Not at ail. Defective preaching 26. Are you aware that it has been remarked as a deficiency in the students leaving owing, in the opinion Mayiiooth, that the com])osition of tlieir sermons was inferior? — 1 have heard that remark, ^witness, more to a j should not be at all surprised; but I think that is not so much owing to their want of capacity. a power of composing as to want oi care. Ihey iiave considerable lacdity m speaking extempore, and any person who has that power readily declines the laliour of writing out what lie thinks he can speak nearly as well without any previous trouble. Difficulty of having 27. If they were made to practise more during the course of their studies, that would make them more correct in their speaking, and probably more thought and deliberation would be used ? — A"es ; but it is hardly possible to have sermons more frequently, consider- ing the great number of students we have. I have known young men to transcribe almost every good sermon that came within their reach. I knew a young man, no way remarkable for his abilities, but who, on the contrary, was rated below the average of his class fellows, and he had a supply of sermons that I am sure lasted him during Ids whole missionary career. These were translated from French sermons, with some little variation. 28. Is any instruction given in Maynooth in the mode of catechising children or grown- up persons ? — There is no instruction given to them as to the mode of doing it distinct sermons more frequently. Catechising I 1 jriNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 207 from the instruction that is conveyed to them, hy giving catechetical instructions before October, ifi53. ... 29. In what form ? — I am in tlie liahit myself of interrogating the young men, fur a year f whitehead or two after their entrance, u])on the catechism, and in the course of tliat interrogation 1 d j>. Vice- FrL Went.’ give such explanations, and make such remarks as 1 conceive to he desirable. From that witness’s own they can learn the mode of giving catechetical instructions ; hut ])rohahIy the catechetical instructions, instructions to wliich the questions refer are not exactly tliesc, hut other plain and simple explanations of truths of religion, not proceeding hy question and answer ; al)OUt such they got no ])articular instructions. 30. Do you conceive that it would ho an advantage if they had some op])ortunity of the kind*? — I declare they come to know the mode of doing it quite sufficiently; if tliey directed their attention somewhat more to composition, there would not ho any necessity to instruct them in the precise mode of giving catechetical instructions. 31. Are you not aware that for many congregations formal sermons are hut little suited. Character of sermom and that the other form of instruction is more suited to their intelligence ? — 1 am haj)py to 'I? ^ ^ say, that the sermons delivered in the College of l\laynooth would ho, generally sjteakmg, intelligible to the very lowest grades of society. 1 think there is no ago and no class that could not understand them, and at the same time they are full of solid matter. On one occasion 1 remember that a sermon was delivered, Avhich consisted of higli-llown language, without any very great substance. The critique passed uj)on it was simply, that there was no congregation to he found in Christendom upon which that discourse would jn’odnee the slightest beneficial eftect ; and since that time 1 think that no young man ever attempted to write in the same style in the College ; so that even a had sermon sometimes has its utility. 32. You invite, as it were, public opinion from the students upon the sermon ? — Just so. 33. The sermons that they attend are not delivered hy the professors? — No; there are none delivered hy professors. 34. The only sermons that they attend are sermons delivered hy their fellow-students? — mstru^ion The deans also give them religions instruction, and occasionally -we have a stranger brought to conduct the spiritual retreat at the commencement of the academic year, in September. 35. That you consider equivalent to sermons, do you not ? — Yes ; there are several sermons each day during that spiritual retreat. I should not, perhaps, say that they are exactly sermons, hut they are discourses having the same tendency as sermons. We con- sider that the perfection of them consists in their being delivered in a familiar manner. 36. They are addresses, rather than formal sermons? — Yes. 37. Do you consider the students of Maynootli to he generally healthy ? — Yes ; I think. Health of students, upon the whole, they are healthy. 38. But few deaths take place in a year ? — Very few. 39. Do you consider the arrangements for the sick, and the medical attendance wdiich Unfitness of senior they receive, sufficient? — I do not consider the arrangements in the infirmary such as infirmary. they might be, hut I think that originates, in a great measure, in th.e nature of the buildings themselves. One of the infirmaries is totally unfit for its purpose ; 1 refer to the infirmary of the senior department. 40. In regard to the medical attendance, and having regard to the money paid for it, do Medical attendance, you think that it is sufficient and satisfactory ? — Beally I have not had occasion to complain of the attendance ; it appears to me that the attendance is adequate to the wants of the College. There are two medical attendants, who visit the College almost every day — Dr. O’Kelly, senior, and Dr. O’Kelly, junior, his son. They are both medical doctors. 41. 'when they visit the infirmary, do they make a return of the names of those who are List of sick, sick, the illness from which they are suffering, and any remarks that arise from it, to the President on each day ? — They draw out a list of the persons Avho are in the infirmary with their sanction on each day, hut they do not attach to that list any account of the causes why these students are in the infirmary. 42. Is that list submitted to the President or Vice-President ?— No, it is not ; hut either the President or the Vice-President may see it, if he chooses. 43. Where would it be? — It is deposited, ordinarily, in the hands of the nurse-tenders Object of preparing in the first instance, the nurse-tenders then give it to the clerk, and the clerk then directs that whatever is prescribed hy the doctor for those persons should he prepared against the dinner-hour. That is the object for which the list is prepared. 44. How is it made known to the different professors that certain students will not Absence of sick from attend their classes hy reason of their indisposition *? — That is not made known to them ; the professors are expected themselves to notice who are absent, and then to make inquiry of the dean, and the dean should know whether the student wdio has been absent has a sufficient reason or not. 45. Would it not ho convenient if there were som.e daily list of those who are sick and in the infirmary hung up in some place of common access to the deans or the principals, or some one authority ? — I do not see the advantage ot it, because it is fully accessible to all the deans, the President, and the Vice-President, at present, if they choose to look for it. 46. The state of the house in that respect is not daily reported to the superiors ?— No, it IS not. superiors. 208 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. loth October, 185:i. 18 . Uev'.K.F.Whiteliciid, i>. i>. , Vice- President. Wlietlier students are satisfied with medical attendance. Doctor’s visits. Visits of consulting pliysiciaii. Notification of. Acquaintance of the deans with illness of Ktudents. >suggestion of daily written statement from medic, al attendant. Witness’s ojinion of. 47. Wonltl it not bo desirable if tlic President or Vice-President were aware of those students wlio were ill? — 1 tbink they usually are. 4cS. The regular and formal way of doing it would bo to send in a li.st to the President, containing the name of any ]ierson suffering from fever or cholera or any other disease ; in a case of cholera a student might be dead before the President knew any thing about it? — ^ Yes, or before the doctor came. 4 9. Do you tbink that the students generally arc satisfied with the medical attendance? — I have had individual complaints; but really it appeared to me that, in several instances, it was partly owing to the sickness of the ])crson, and partly to the circumstance that he was dissatisfied, and would have been dissatisfied if he had got additional attend- ance. In fact that is one of the consequences of illness in an establishment like iMaynooth, that a person becomes dissatisfied with all about him, because he has not around liim a family and friends that will just enter into his case and his condition, as if he were at home. 50. Have you ever beard any clergymen who have left the College, and become priests, express themselves dissatisfied with the way in which they were treated when sick at Maynooth ? — No. 51. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in making, every refixed ; and by doing so he is understood to comply with those two provisions of the Statute. 200. In what way does he promise that ho w'ill faithfully comply with tlie regulations as to tlio duties of a student ? — The terms are given at the close of the “ llogula Pietatis.” 201. It is stated in that clause that ho is to promise that he will faithfully comply, &c., at the head of the book in ^Yhich he signs his name. Are both those promises written out? — Yes, the two are in one. There is the declaration, which is given at the end of tlie “ Regula Pietatis,” and that declaration combines the two — that he will observe tho rules, and also that ho will not join any secret society, and does not belong to one. 202. And that book is kept by the President, is it not ? — Yes. 203. In whose presence do the students subscribe this written promise in the register of the College? — At present they usually subscribe it in the presence of the President, the Vice-l’resident, and the deans, in the public hall. When 1 was a student, if lam not mis- taken, I signed it in the President’s room ; but the time is so very distant that 1 cannot say who were present. 204. You think that tho President was present ? — Yes. 205. Are the duties of the students, wdiich are stated in these Statutes to bo subscribed, set out separately in the book containing the “ Regula Pietatis” ? — The duties of tlie students are set out in the “ Regula Pietatis that is the rule wdiich they subscribe. 206. Is there any book in w'hich any series of rules comprising the duties of the students exists distinct from the Statutes in the “ Regula Pietatis” ? — None that I know of. 207. Is there any book shown to them by the Pre.sident? — No book, except the “Regula Pietatis.” That is not exactly shown, but it is read publicly every year, as also the Statutes; and each student is recommended to have a copy of the “Regula Pietatis,” and to have recourse to it for the purposes of study. 208. Is he required to have a copy ? — He is not required exactly. 209. Would it not be well to have a printed copy hung up in every chamber ? — They usually have a copy, but they do not hang them up. After a student has been there for a month or two, ho becomes thoroughly familiar Avith them. It is not a justitication of a student to say that he does not know the rule Avhen he transgresses it. 210. You have alluded to the Statutes being read. Is the practice observed as laid doAvn by the Statutes ? — They are read every year, at the commencement of the academic year. 211. Are the Statutes read out at the half-year’s examination, as well as at the com- mencement of the academic year? — No. I would remark that the Statutes in this book are accessible to the students at aU times, in the library. In the senior library they can see the Statutes in Latin and in English. The Latin of the Statutes is a little cramp. 212. It forms part of the duty, does it not, of the deans, to go with the students to have the oath of allegiance administered ? — One of the deans always does accompany them. 213. Does an observance of the manner in Avhich the oath is administered form part of the duty of the dean, or is it entirely the duty of the Clerk of the Peace or the magis- trate ? — I think it is left entirely to the magistrate. 214. The dean takes no part in the administration of the oath ? — I think not. 215. He conducts them to the officer to have the oath administered ? — Yes ; he supposes that the public officers know the mode of administering the oath. 216. Where does the dean stand or sit during the administration of the oath; is he amongst the students or in the Court below ? — I have never been present at the taking of the oath since I took it myself in the beginning of the year 1821 ; and I cannot answer for the dean being in one or the other position constantly. All I know is that I have heard one of the deans say, upon an occasion on which he attended, that he was not amongst the students, but separated from them. 217. You have stated that each student makes a Avritten promise that he neither belongs to nor will join any secret society. Is that promise contained in the declaration in page forty-five of the Appendix to the Eighth Report of the Commissioners of Irish Education Inquiry ? — Yes. 218. Will you have the goodness to read it aloud ? — “ I, the undersigned, promise and engage, that I am neither at present concerned in any latent conspiracy, and that I Avill not be concerned at any other time in such, and that I aaTII carefully and faithfully preserve all and every one of the Statutes and regulations of this College as long as I shall remain in it ; and that I shall not intentionally say or do anything by which the said Statutes and regulations may sustain any detriment, or by which the other students may be led to their violation or contempt ; to the truth of Avhich I have here subscribed.” 219. Is the oath of allegiance administered to a professor upon his appointment? — I do not know an instance of a professor who had not taken it already. I think every professor had taken it already Avhile a student. We have no professor, I believe, who did not study in the College. 220. Have aU the professors been students of the College ? — Every one of them. They I9^/i Octohrr, Is. Rcv.ll.l'.AViiitelicad, u.D.,Vice-rresi(lunt. Signature in College register to which promise is prefixed. In wliosc presence subscribed. Ko book containing duties of students excei>t the Regula rietatis. Students usually have a copy of the Regula Pietatis, Statutes read once a-}ear. Duty of one of the deans to accompany studer.ts to take oath of allegiance. Words of promise against belonging to secret societies. Every professor had been a student. 21G MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. VMh October, 18').'!. Rev.TJ ’F.AVhitehead, T) . D . , Vice-President . And all the officers, except Senior Dean. As to exercise of catechising in parish church. !Might interfere with other duties, or be done negligentiv. I’reparation requisite for such exercise. AVhether that i.s not an argument for the practice. Preparation found in theological studies. AVitness’s reasons against tlie adoption of the practice. Catechetical instruc- tion given by witness to junior students. Petreats — at entrance — at Pente- cost. all have been Dunboync stiuleiits with the exception of one, who in consequence of the wants of his diocese was called home. 221. Have all the officers of the College been students in the College? — No, there is one exception ; tlie Senior Deati was not a student in the College. 222. Should you tliink it injurious to the discipline of the College if any of the senior students were engaged in catechising in the parisli church in the village ? — I would not conceive it an advantage, 223. Would not the exercise be advantageous? — I dare say it might be; yet, because they have a great deal of business to attend to, 1 think it would give them a haliit of instructing without devoting themselves particularly to the preparation of their dis- courses. 224. Do not you think that that would be an essential portion of the priest’s duty, and a portion of tliose duties in whicli they ought to be exorcised before they enter the priest- hood? — If it did not interfere with more important advantages to themselves, I think they ought to be exercised in it ; but I question whether it would not be attended either with a neglect of the studies in which they are specially engaged, according to the Statutes, or with this equally untoward result, that they would go forward to make tliose discourses without sufficient prejiaration, which would give them a habit of negligence, and would redound to the discredit of the College. 225. The question referred to giving catechetical imstruction in the Christian doctrine to children?. — Yes. 226. Arc not those matters that every student ought to know? — Yes. 227. Knowing them, are they not matters upon which he might convey instruction without occupying time in preparing?^ — I think he could convey instruction, but not without considerable preparation, in a manner that would be beneficial to the student, or creditable to himself and the College. I tliink that those simple things are matters that require most preparation. 1 conceive that to accommodate truths that are fundamental, and to convey them, with the utmost cori-ectness, as they should be conveyed, to the minds of persons that are very insufficiently prepared to receive them, is one of the groate.st difficulties that a man can encounter. I would rather, any day, prepare a charity sermon to preach in one of the churches of the city of Dublin, than undertake the preparation for the instruction of a number of children in the Christian doctrine. Our ablest theologians have thouglit that the construction of the Catechism sliould be their last work ; tliey liave undertaken it only after they had written theological treatises, 22'^. Has not that occurred to you to be a very strong reason why the student ought to be exercised in that which requires preparation before they become priests? — I do not think it is. I think their studies will prepare them to reduce the doctrines that they have learned in their treatises to that simple form which is suited to the minds of children, and better than they could be prepared by attenqiting to use the full ])Ower of language on such subjects, when they are not tlioroughly master of the entire course. 229. Do you think that the practice would not be useful with a view to their attaining a facility in imparting such instruction when they become priests? — Yes, it would be useful if it could be done without withdrawing them from the studies appointed for them by the Statutes. 230. Does not it occur to you that previous exercise is essential with a view to perform- ing the practical duties of a working priest? — No, I do not. I think the best preparation is to study the course appointed for them by the rules of the College, and after their minds have been matured by those studies, they will be then masters of their matter, and masters, too, of their language, so as to be able to accommodate both to the capacities of all that will hear them, much better than they would be if they began earlier. Those arc my views. 231. If preparation for that exercise formed part of the course of study, do not you think that it would be an advantage ? — 1 really do think that they would not be so well prepared. Upon the whole, I think that their present studies are quite enough for them, and if they were divided between them and any other duties, their proficiency on the whole would be less. 232. What is suggested is merely a weekly exercise in imparting instruction in' the Catechism. Are you aware that that is the practice in St. Sulpice, in Pai'is? — Y’es, 1 do not, however, conceive that it is a desirable thing for our students, and 1 would object to it on the score of discipline. I think it would give them a facility of leaving tlie College and meeting with persons who would detain them from their ordinary duties in the establishment. 2-33. Is there any catechetical instruction imparted to the junior students? — Y'es. I am in the habit of giving them catechetical instruction, but not, probably, of the sort that the Commissioners mean. I really go through the Catechism, and take question and answer. 234. W'ould it not be useful to exercise the senior students by requiring them to assist in the performance of that duty? — 1 think it is sufficiently performed, and that the objec- tions I have already stated would apply' to it, although not the objections that I derive from discipline. 235. Y'ou have stated, incidentally, in the coimse of ymur examination, that it is customary for externs to conduct the retreats. Is that the usual jiractice, or only an occasional practice? — It has been, for many years past, the usual practice, that one extern conducts MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 217 tlio rotroafc at the commencement of the academical year, but I do not remember an instance now, for many years, in wbicli an extern did conduct tlie retreat at Pentecost, the second retreat in the academical year. 23(5. The second retreat is a more im])ortant one, being just prior to tlie students enter- ing Holy Orders? — Yes, for tliose immediately to be advanced to Holy Orders; but the otlier appears to be a mucli more important retreat for the discipline and the general well-being of the College. 237. Can you explain brielly, without entering too much into ])articulars, what the nature of the retreat is, and what is the nature of the exercises ? — The exercises generally consist of prayer, meditation, instructions given by way of public reading on spiritual sub- jects, and exhortations, the retreat being closed by recourse being bad by the students to confession and communion. These are the general outlines of the spiritual retreat ; and during the entire time silence is observed. 238. Who selects the parties to conduct the retreat ? — Generally speaking, the Presi- dent, the Vice-President, and the deans agree about a person. It sometimes ba])pens that the President goes for the vacation before the matter is decided, and I, perhaps, in such a case, have to exercise my own discretion. It occurred just so upon the very last occasion. Dr. i\Ioriarty conducted our last retreat. 239. Will you have tlie goodness to supply the names of the persons who have conducted the retreats for the last ten or twelve years? — Messrs. Moriarty, Lynch, Kavanagh, Curtis, Healy, and ^PNamara. Several of these eminent gentlemen conducted retreats for us more than once Avithin the time specified. 240. In point of fact, is there any exercise of the students in conveying catechetical instruction throughout the Avhole of their course? — No. they do not convey any. If there Avere to be any system introduced on that subject, I think our servants might, Avith most benefit, be lectured. They form a considerable body : Ave have not less than from sixty to seventy, counting nursetenders and all — beyond sixty, at all events. 241. Is there any de])artment, or any branch of any department of instruction in Ma}'- nooth Avliich corresponds to Avhat is knoAvn out of Maynooth by the term ])astoral theology ? — No ; there is no ]iarticular department that is called by that name ; but the course of theology includes a treatise under Avhich that necessarily comes; we call it a treatise De Obl.bfatio- n/bufi Statiuwi, in Avhicli treatise the students are taught the duties of each condition of life ; and amongst others, the duties of a pastor are ex])lained. 242. That is in a ])art of the ordinary course of moral theology, is it not ? — Yes. 243. Exce])t that, there is no distinct teaching or training, save Avhat the general studies impart Avith reference to the pastoral character? — None, Avhatever, except that a person is informed of all the duties he should discharge in reference to his fiock, in those instruc- tions given preparatory to ordination. 244. Not until that time ? — No, not until then; but no student is ordained from the instructions derived from a single retreat for the preparation for Orders, but from the moment he enters he has an opportunity of attending these retreats Avhen given at every Pentecost. 24.5. Are the retreats of the senior and junior students combined ? — They combine in the hearing of discourses, but in no other j)art. 24G. 'fhosc discourses treat of the obligations of a ])astor, do they not ? — They do ; but it depends very much upon the person Avho conducts the retreat. Some enter more into the duties that regard the }iresent moment, and the preparation for the reception of the sacra- ment of Orders ; others enter more into Avhat Avill become their subsequent duties. In trutb, in any case, those duties must be touched upon, and pretty largely; because the present dispositions that they should have are derived from the nature of the duties in Avhich they are to bo sid)sequently employed. 247. Do all the students attend these lectures? — Yes, all. 248. IloAV many discourses of that kind are given on one occasion ? — -That depends very much upon the Avill of the person Avho conducts the exercises. There are alAA'ays tAvo, as a matter of course, in each day. The retreat for ordination commences upon the Saturday evening, and continues until the following Saturday morning, I'or all Avho are to be ordained priests ; it continues until the folloAving Friduy morning, from the Saturday, foi- all who are to be ordained deacons ; it continues from the Saturday until the folloAving Thursday morning, for all Avho are to be ordained sub-deacons ; and from the Saturday evening till the Wednesday morning, for the remainder of the students. 249. From Saturday until AVeduesday all the students have an opportunity of receiving those instructions? — Yes, and the days folloAving. They are not obliyvd to attend, but they have an opportunity of attending the following instructions. 2,50. Put that is the only instruction, Avith a view to the ]Aastoral duty specifically, Avhich is given during the course? — No, there is the treatise De Obliurchase to themselves damnation.’ ” Rom. xiii. 258. In the course of this catechetical instruction, do you enlarge upon their duties as citizens — such as abstaining from intemperate language, or busying themselves too much in secular affairs, and keeping in view constantly the obligations which they have incurred as citizens, and so on ? — 1 have not enlarged in that way ; it is only in an indirect way, by telling them what great demands there were upon them for the discharge of their functions as clergymen, how much time they should devote to that, and how little to worldly pur- poses. The reason is this, that, at that stage of their course, they are very remote from the time at which they can take part as citizens in any political transactions ; therefore I conceive that it wmuld not be exactly a fitting opportunity for such remarks. 259. M"hat portion of the students do you instruct in that way ? — Two classes — the Humaiiity Class and the Rhetoric Class ; they are quite young. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 219 260. You do not convey that S 2 )ccies of instruction to any students above those classes ? —No. 26 1 . Does any body convey such instruction to the students above those classes ? — I do not think so. 262. Is there any advice oiTered, in a friendly way, to the young men on quitting the College and taking orders, as to their future conduct, or is it merely a formal operation ? —The truth is, that tliero is a great deal done in a way with wliicli the Commissioners, perhaps, are not familiar. Each student has a spiritual director, and the sjnritual director becomes, during the course of the student, thoroughly ac([uainted with his manners and dispositions. They have very confidential intercourse witli each other ; and it is usual for the students, at least for many of them, to apply to their spiritual director, when about to leave the establishment, for the advice which he thinks the most for their benefit. Now, I conceive it probable, in such confidential communications, that directions would be given with most effect. They are advised, in these, to devote very little time to any pursuits that would clash or interfere with the discharge of their sacred duties as priests, and to take care that, in every department of life, they will conduct themselves with great mode- ration, so that they may be an example to their flocks. 263. Are they ever under the spiritual direction of others than members of the College? . 1 — Never; yet a few of them possibly may, for an occasion; for instance, when a gentle- man comes to conduct the retreat, at the commencement of the academical year, any student is free to make that gentleman his confessor for that time ; hut then he goes away, and has no permanent influence. 264. Are there any gentlemen who conduct the retreats from wdthout who are members of the Society of Jesus? — I think for several years we have not had one; but we have bad, from time to time, the happiness of having members of that society to conduct the retreats. 265. The system of retreats exists in every ecclesiastical establishment, does it not ? — I believe so ; it is ordered, in fact. 266. It is the regular rule of the Pope, is it not? — Yes ; I believe there is no ecclesias- tical establishment without retreats. We do not conceive that a person would be properly prepared for ordination without them. 267. You have stated what is the kind of instruction given with a view to those pastoral duties as conveyed by the Deans ; how often do the Deans convey oral instruction to the stu- dents, and isit done by one Dean or by all? — I could not enter into the minutiaj of that matter, because I do not attend their instructions ; but any of the Deans could give the Com- missioners full and clear satisfaction upon the point. 268. When the Senior Dean does not attend to give instruction, does any body do that duty ? — If the Senior Dean should not he in a condition to give the instruction for any considerable length of time, as a matter of course one of the other Deans will take it up. It is not very long ago since I spoke to one of the Junior Deans myself, stating that I understood that the ordinary instructions that were given to the students had not been given since the commencement of the year, aud he at once told me that he had_already made arrangements to commence a system of instruction himself. 269. In point of fact it is only given by one Dean? — It would not be at all fair to say that, but I think that it was principally and chiefly given by him. He did it, as a matter of course, once a week. As to the others, I do not know that they had as regular a system, or, at least, one that I am as well acquainted with. 270. Is the instruction given by the Senior Dean given to the senior or the junior house? — The Senior Dean was in the habit of giving instructions in both houses separately. 271. There is a lecture given to each ? — I do not know that it could be called a lecture; it is a sort of instruction ; I do not know how to denominate it ; it was given at the time of prayer, in the morning and evening prayer. That was on the senior side of the estab- lishment ; and in the junior department it was given at half-past five to six, on two even- ings in the week. 272. Do you know whether it is given by any other Deans except the Senior, when the Senior himself attends ? — I cannot say whether the Senior is present when the others instruct, but the Junior Deans do give instructions. 273. At what periods? — I do not know that they have stated periods; for instance, I know that one of them is to give instructions on the eve of the first of November ; I cannot say at what time. 274. That is a festival, is it not ? — Yes. 275. Is there any part of the system of the College, according to which it is the duty of one Dean, or of more than one Dean, to impart periodical instruction on certain days in the week or certain hours in the day ? — There is no rule of the College requiring the Dean to give instruction at any hour — no rule whatever ; he is ordered by the Statute to give instructions. In fact, one wmuld suppose that he should never cease instructing. 276. The question was with regard to instructions to the students collected for the purpose of hearing them? — I suppose the number of times at which the students arc assembled for the sole purpose of hearing instructions from the Dean might not be more than once in the year. It is at the time of prayer the Dean instructs ; and it might be that he wmuld not give instruction on the day that he was in the habit of doing it. It makes no difference, as to the reality of the instructions, whether the students are assem- bled for the purpose of hearing them or for another purpose, provided the Dean gives the instruction. 2 f2 lOlh October, 1853. 18. Rcv.R.F.Wliitohead, D .D. , Yicc-l'resident . Coniiiiuiiicatioii between students and their spiritual direeteis. Retreats when con- ducted by members of Society of Jesus. System of retreats exists in every ecclesiastical establishment. Instruction given by deans. Chiefly by Senior Dean. At morning and evening prayer to senior house. No rule requiring deans to give instruction at specified times. 220 MAYNOOTII C0M:MISSI0X. 1 9 th October, ISj.*?. TT UcT.U.F.’Wliitelieail, 1)1)., \"ice-Fresiilent. Instructions to junior liouse from iiult'-jiasr, five to six. p.ui., twice a week. Time occupied in. Is'ature of. I’resiilent and Vice-rresident do not attend. Duties of priests as citi/en<. 277. Are they a.sscmbled so that they all hear? — Yes ; there is no specified time. 278. TJiere art^ four Deans, and the Commissioners are anxious to ascertain wliat each, docs in reference to communicatin'? instruction on pastoral duties to tlie students? — 1 am not able to define the precise liours ; he is bound to no hours. 1 think that very amjilo instructions are given ; and, if any thing, 1 conceive that the number of instructions should he diminished on such matters. I do not know of any stated periods, because none arc fixed; hut 1 know that the duty is performed at the morning and night prayer; in the junior department it is ordinarily given at half-past five to six o'clock, p.m. 275). Every day ? — No, twice a week in the junior department. 2S0. On what days ? — On Sundays and Wednesdays. 281. When are the instructions given in the senior department? — At morning and night prayer, on any day the Dean chooses, lie may do it, and I believe he does it, sometimes twice a week, hut I am not sure of that ; then it will be four times a week. 282. What is done during the half hour — is it occupied in prayer, meditation, and instruction? — It is occupied in vocal prayer and instruction. 283. How much of tlie period is occupied in instruction ? — I should say about twenty minutes ; possibly, it often reaches twenty-five minutes. 281. What kind of instruction is given — upon what subject ; is it upon the duties con- nected with the subject of meditation, or with reference to the peculiar duties of a priest to his flock ? — vSometimes upon tlie one, and sometimes upon the other. Sometimes the subject of the instruction will he one of the four last things ; sometimes it will he a mystery of religion ; sometimes the nature of the peculiar festival ; sometimes it will be the character of the priesthood ; sometimes it will bo the vocation ; and sometimes it will be some other suliject connected with the sacred ministry. All that depends upon the judg- ment of the ])erson giving the instruction, the Dean ; he is bound by the Statute to give instructions, but he is bound by neither Statute nor rule as to the form of those instruc- tions, 285. Neither as to the particular time nor the partievdar periods at which he gives them? —No. 286. In point of fact, you state that the instruction is given by the present Senior Dean ? — Yes. 287. In addition to what the present Senior Dean does, is such instruction given by any of the other Deans ? — I think so— that is, some instruction; hut I think the Commissioners will get full satisfaction upon those matters from the Deans. 288. Is it any part of your duty, as Vice-President, or any part of the duty of the President, to see that the Deans perform their duty, or to what extent it is discharged? — 1 think if there was any reason to suppose that the Deans neglected their duty, it would be our duty to attend to it, and endeavour to supply the defect in some M'a}\ 289. Is it the practice for the President or the Vice-President to attend, upon any such occasions, often or otherwise? — No, except during the retreats conducted by the Deans. The Deans are selected with peculiar care ; they are not appointed by concursus, as the professors are ; and I suppose it is in consequence of the importance that is attached to their position that the Board of Trustees have reserved to themselves the right of absolutely selecting those wliom they consider most fit. Hence the President and the Vice-President have great confidence that the Deans do discharge those duties, and discharge them usefully and efliciently. It is impo.ssibIe, if the contrary were the case, that the President and Vice- President would not hear of it. 290. Do any of the professors, or any other superiors of the College, attend, besides the Dean who gives the instruction, upon the occasion when it is given? — One of the other Deans, I should think, ordinarily does. I do not believe that any professor or other supe- rior does. 291. If it were defective, generally, and not such as the President or the Vice-President 'would approve of, you have no means of ascertaining that, except from the students or one of the Deans who Avas present? — lust so; it is the same means as a bishop has, ordinarily, of judging of his priests : he cannot be present. 292. In the treatise, De Ohligationihus Statuum, is there any portion of it which refers to the duty of a priest as a citizen? — I should think not of a priest as such. His duties as a citizen are the same as the duties of any other. As a citizen he is subject to the same rules and the same direction as any ordinary citizen ; therefore, under that relation, he is not particularly con.sidered. 293. The treatise does not compri.se, under the termstotu^ civilis, the status of a citizen, as distinguished from a strictly ecclesiastical individual ? — No ; there is a ])ortion of the course of theology in which the duty of citizens is taught, diflferent from the “ De Ohli~ f/ationibus Statuum.” I do not refer to that treatise for those particular duties of the priesthood, but for the duties of the priesthood generally ; but, under tbe Fourth Com- mandment, the duties of subjects to sovereigns, and of citizens to the State to which they belong, are ordinarily treated in theology ; because the Fourth Commandment is regarded as not merely having a reference to parents, but to all those who are placed in authority. 294. Does that question come under consideration in the course of dogmatic or moral theology ? — In the course of moral theology, it Avould come in the case I as.signed; but I must say candidly that it is upon the dogmatic professor that our Statutes impose the obhgation of teaching it ; but that makes no difference, because the dogmatic and moral professorships are now combined. 295. Is there any treatise on dogmatic theology in use in the College now which MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 221 eniEracfis tlio subject of the duties of a citizen? — Not exactly in that form; but tlierc is the treatise, “/Je Ecclcsia,” in n'hicli a reference is made to certain portions of the duties of citizens. 29(). Von will remember this proposition in Dr. Delaboguc’s treatise, “ De Ecclesia — “ Christus Potro et successoribus ejus ant occlesiai nullam concessit potestatcm dircctam vel iudirectam in regum tem])oralia : ])roindc(|UC isti nunquam auctoritate claviuni, ctiam indirecte deponi possunt aut eorem sul)diti a tide et ol)edientia illis debita exinii ac dis])cn- sari.” So far as you arc ac(piainted with tlie doctrine held by the ]>rofe.ssors in Maynooth College at ])rescnt, is this doctrine invariably maintained by them ? — Invariably. 297. And was so wlien you were a student ? — Yes; 1 myself read that proposition under one of the present bishops. 298. That is the ]U'inci])le which you imbibed at Maynooth ? — Certainly. 299. That is the ])rinciple upon wliich the Deans convey instruction, if they have occasion ever to touch upon tlie subject? — I really must say they do not ever touch u])on that ])oint, no more than they touch upon the j)oint of murder, or any thing of that description. 1100. Are you of opinion that no Dean at present in the College, or no officer in the College, maintains a doctrine at variance with that just stated? — 1 am quite sure tliat that is tlie case. dOl. Will you also have the goodness to state whether you have any reason to believe that a contrary jirinciple, or a principle in any degree conliicting with that contained.^ in the proposition of Dr. Delahogue, is maintained by any of tlie students at ]\Iaynooth? — 1 believe that no principle that w'ould in any degree conflict with that is maintained by a single student. I have never known, and have no reason to apprehend, that any thing at variance with that is entertained by any student in the College, noi', indeed, has been entertained, so far as my knowledge goes. 302. It has been asserted that the lleview of Dr. Drownson, which advocates doctrines at variance with the proposition of Dr. Delahogue, is read extensively by the students at Maynooth. Have you had occasion to apprehend that such is the fact ? — No; I am inclined to think the contrary ; because such reading is prohibited by rule — not as to Dr. Brown- son individually and distinctly, but as to all periodicals ; and were I to meet Dr. Brownson’s Beview in a student’s room, I would take it away. 303. And it would be the duty of the Deans to do so? — The Deans might do it ; but, of course, I conceive that I have likewise all the power of the Deans. 304. It is the duty of the Deans, specially, to examine the hooks, is it not? — A"es ; not mine ; however, I do it sometimes. oOa. Have you ever heard of that hook being in the hands of any student? — I heard of one of the gentlemen who was examined here, on his return, saying that he did know a student who had read that hook ; hut I understood him to know only one student ; and I understood him, likewise, to say that that student expressed his dissent from the doctrines of Dr. Brownson. 306. That student might have read it elsewhere than in the College ? — Yes ; and if he read it in the College, he read it in violation of the rules. 307. Have you ever heard of its being in the hands of any student in the College? — Never. 308. When the professor’s treat subjects of this nature — namely, with regard to absence of temporal pow’er on the part of the Church — do they eirter into arguments to establish it, as Avell as treat it as a settled point ? — That, certainly, depends upon the disposition of the professor who is actually treating of it. I should think some would treat it by saying, “ This is an antiquated question, about which there is no doubt or difficulty at the present day,” and so pass it over lightly ; perhaps, in that manner, saying that nobody holds Bellarmine’s opinion that there is an indirect power on the part of the Pope. Others miglit treat it more at large, and proceed with it as wdth the other questions, saying, that such an opinion has been stated on the one side, and such an opinion on the other ; the opinion to he adopted is recommended by such and such arguments. They would subse- quently take up the arguments on the opposite side, and say, “ Those views have been urged with such and such proofs,” and go through the solution at length and fully. Each professor has considerable latitude in determining the degree of minuteness with wdiicli he will enter into each subject as it comes before him. 309. Is there any apartment in which the students can receive their friends ? — There is no apartment set aside for that purpose. A student can see a friend in his own apart- ment. 310. M'ould it not be desirable that there should be a public room in wdiich the parent and the student might meet ? — 1 have already suggested to the President, from time to time, that it w’ould be very desirable if there was a room set aside for the special purpose of letting the students see those friends who call upon them, and I rather think the President has some such arrangement in contemplation. 311. Who is now the senior student of the house ?• — The senior of the entire College is a priest on the Dunboyne Establishment, named Lavelle. 312. 'Who is the senior theological student? — Mr. Cohnan Galvin; he is the senior of the senior department. 313. Who is the senior of the Physics Class? — Mr. O’Sullivan is the senior of the Physics Class. 314. Who is the senior of the Logic Class ? — Mr. Tobyn. iy//i Oetoler, 1853. 18 . Kev.K F.Wliitelicad, i).D.,Vice-I’rcsi(leiit. Dr. Dcd.ahogue's proposition inva- riably maintained at Jlaynootli. No oflicer in the College maintains a different doctrine. Nor any student, to witness’s knowledge or belief. Ifr. Urownson'B Keview. Mode of treating (picstion of the Church’s temporal power by the profes- sors. AVant of waiting room for tlie " students’ friends. 222 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. l9//( Ortohrr, 18D3. 18 . Eev.R.F.Wliiteliead, D . u . , Vice-President . State of infirmary — no representations to Trustees on that subject. 20th October, 1853. TeT Very Rev. L. F. Renehan, d.u., President, Returns of ordina- tions in College. Many receive lower orders in College, and priesthood afterwards. List of sub-deacons gives nearest approximation to actual number of priests who were Maynooth students. Some priests received no orders at all in the College. No person whatever has caTionical power to send a student to another country. Student maj', with his bishop’s leave, volunteer on such a Biissiou. 315. I\Ir. Galvin is the senior of all who are not on the Dunbojne Establishment, is he not ? — Yes, he is what we call the senior of the house. 316. Do you know tt'ho is the senior of the junior department? — He is the senior of the Logic Class, Mr. Tobyn, 317. Have any representations been made to the Trustees with reference to the state of the infirmary? — I am not aware. 318. Either by the Pre.sident or by the students ? — I am not aware ; but I really should think that the Trustees must have seen and known the place, because they go about the CoUege and see it, and they know what sort of a place it is, at least externally. 319. But no representation has been made from the College to the Trustees, as to its state and condition ? — I am not aware that any formal communication has been made to the Trustees as to the state of the infirmary. 320. Is it any part of the practice or duty of the President or_^the Vice-President to visit the infirmary ? — It is the practice ; there is no duty, exactly. 321. How often is it visited by either? — Ido not know; sometimes once a day, and sometimes once a week. I think, on the whole, it might be said that it is visited by one or the other more than once a w’^eek. I think that that is a very low average ; it has some- times happened that I have gone seven times in a day to the infirmary. 322. Tlie number of visits would depend upon the nature and extent of the sickness that prevailed? — Yes; if I saw, in going several times, that every thing was going right, I should feel satisfied. [ The Witness xvithdreiu.~\ Thursday, SOth October, 1853. The Veiy Eev. L. F. Ileneha/i, d.d.. President, examined. 1. You are President of the College of Maynooth ? — Yes. 2. You have furnished to the Commissioners a return of the number of Maynooth students who have been ordained in the College during the last twenty j'ears, from which it appears that the number of those ordained priests is considerably smaller than those ordained deacons, and the number of those ordained deacons is considerably smaller than those ordained sub-deacons. Do not all sub-deacons become deacons, and all deacons become priests ? — Except in cases of death, or permanent sickness, there is scarcely any exception to the ordinaiy rule, that every sub-deacon becomes a deacon, and every deacon a priest; but it is not in College that they always receive these higher orders ; of those ordained sub-deacons within the College, there are some who do not become deacons, and many who do not become priests, until after they have left Maynooth. 3. For the purpose of ascertaining, practically, the number of priests who receive a portion, at least, of their education in Maynooth, Avould the list of sub-deacons furnish the nearest approximation to that? — The list of sub-deacons is a nearer ai^proximation to the number of priests ordained from Maynooth, than can be obtained from aiy^ other ordina- tion list in the books of the College. These lists contain the names only of those who receive Orders within the College ; and while many of the priests, educated at Maynooth, received the order of priesthood, and several the order of deaconship, also, in their native dioceses, after they had left Maynooth, there are but few of them who were not, while students, ordained sub-deacons in College. 4. Then there are some who have not received even the order of sub-deacon within the College, who, j'et, have received a portion of their education, for the priesthood, within the walls of Maynooth, and who have, ultimately, been ordained elsewhere ? — Unques- tionably; there are some ordained priests, from Maynooth, who have never received any Orders within the College. No student of Maynooth can, canonically, receive any Orders without the licence and authorization of his bishoj) or ordinary ; some bishops do not usually authorize the students iireparing for the ministry, in their diocese, to receive priests’ orders at Maynooth ; others do not allow them to receive any Orders, until they have completed their studies ; the students, themselves, on accoimt of insufficient age, sickness, or other casualties, and, sometimes, of mere choice, defer to receive Orders until their collegiate course is completed ; in these cases, if the unexpected necessities of a diocese oblige a bishop to call out to the work of the ministry any student so circum- stanced any time, however short, before the usual term for ordinations in Maynooth, in the last year of his course, such student will be ordained a priest elsewhere, but will, or may, have received no Holy Orders whatever in the College. Hence, partly, it is, that the number of priests ordained at Ma^mooth is not so large as the number of sub-deacons, and that even the list of sub-deacons is not as numerous still as the list of Maynooth students annually ordained, which I have already furnished, in answer to Question 12, in PaiJer A. 5. Does it ever happen that a student, before he has completed his education, is called away, for the purpose of being sent as a clergyman to any other country than Ire- land ? — Never ; no student ever is, or can be, called away for that purpose, or sent, by any authority in Ireland, to the ministry in any other country; no person possesses even sufficient canonical power so to call away or send ; but a student, moved by zeal for the salvation of souls, and a generous, self sacrificing purpose, not to let an invaluable harvest perish through mere want of gospel-labourers to save it ; or by considerations of health and climate ; or by the better prospect of succeeding to and in the ministry, may leave the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 223 College of his own choice before he has completed his studies ; and having, perhaps, with much dilliculty, obtained his bishop’s permission, may go to another country, and, even- tually, he ordained a clergyman ; such cases have ha 2 )pened in some instances. 0. Could you give a limit to tlie number ? — After carefidly examining tlie catalogue of priests resident in England and Scotland, which the Commissioners desired to have marked off in the same manner as the former catalogue of i)riests resident in Ireland, among about a thousand in-iests, including a large number of Irishmen, and a still larger nundjer of Irish names, I can discover but twenty-five that received any i>art of their education at Maynooth. Of these, some left the College more than thirty years ago, others more tlian twentj% and, within the last ten years, only nine, nearly all of whom went over to assist for only two or three years. Having no similar catalogue of the 2 >i’iests in other countries, I cannot state exactly how many among them may have begun or com 2 )leted their studies in Maynooth ; but I rather think that a greater number went to Great Britain alone than to all other countries besides; except that during the late dismal 2 >eriod, while the tide of emigra- tion from all but the highest and lowest classes was at its highest mark, and it seemed likely that fewer j'l’iests would be wanted for a country under ^n’oeess of de 2 ) 02 >ulation also by famine and pestilence, some students left jMaynooth before their studies were com- pleted, jn’eferring to accompany their parents and relatives to countries where their services were more required, than to suffer the oiq)hanage and isolation of exile unem- ployed at home. On the whole, the students who leave Maynooth, with the view of devoting themselves to the sacred ministry in all other countries besides Ireland, would not annually average more than one in three or four years of those that comjileted their education, nor annually more than two or three of those that received there any 2 )art of their education. They do not amount to near half the number of those that anniiall}" abandon the eccle- siastical vocation altogether, and leave Maynooth in order to devote themselves to legal, literary, commercial, military, and other secular pursuits; nor to near half the number of those who annually leave other colleges before their studies are com^^leted, in order to finish their education, and be ordained inrests for Ireland, in Maynooth. 7. The j)roportion of INIaynooth students who are 2 )iiests is very nearly half, is it not? — Yes; of the priests residing in Ireland, those educated at Maynooth now form very closely about the one-half. 8. That proj^ortiou is, however, on the increase, is it not ? — Certainly, on the increase. 9. Ten years ago the pro 2 :)ortion would not have been favourable to Maynooth ? — The proportion of Maynooth priests, ten years ago, was less than it is now; in 1843, there were, I think, about as many students educated for the Irish jiarochial ministry in other colleges, such as Carlow, Kilkenny, Tuam, Thurles, Waterford, Deny, Navan, Wexford, &-c., in Ireland, and Paris, Home, Louvain, &c. on the continent of Euroj)e, as there were in Maynooth ; at jjresent, the number of students educated at Maynooth is twice the number of Irish ecclesiastical students in all these other colleges togefher. 10. It has been suggested to the Commissioners that it would be an improvement in the system of the College, if the professors had more intercourse with the students ; for instance, by taking their meals in common with them, carrying on some of their religious exercises in common, and by mingling more with them in 2 >rivate, or in their walks; have you ever considered this subject? — I cannot say that I have considered it very mucli, but I have paid some attention to it, and I tliink the alteration referred to would not be an improvement, at least, unless the constitution of the College, in several substantial funda- mental points, w'ere, also, altered accordingly ; the ju'esent system at Majmooth is, that the professors unite w'ith the students in the jirincijral, and some of the shorter, religious exercises of class days, as well as Sundays and holidays ; and the deans are with them at all their religious exercises — at their meals in the refectory, at their recreation and public wallas, within and outside the College. The more constant and familiar intercourse con- templated in the question, is a system better suited, I think, to small than to very numerous communities, to seminaries for the education of young boys, rather than for grown iqi young men. Its advantages would, I conceive, be greater in a small than in a large community, and would not be at all considerable in a College so very large and advanced as Maynooth ; but its disadvantages — for even in a small community disadvantages might result — would be greater in a large than in a small community. 11. What class of disadvantages do you allude to, or what evil, do you believe, results from such intercourse, in small communities ? — I would apprehend that such familiar intercourse wmuld tend to lessen, not, perhaps, the respect, hut the desire, for lectures and religious instructions, and that interest in them which even novelty helps to create. It might also tend to weaken authority in the enforcement of the duties i:)rescribed by the rules of the institution. In colleges where the imjiils are young, and their number small, authority, which in these houses is usually absolute however jiarental, and joractically under almost no limitation or control, is easily maintained ; but, where the scholars are more advanced in years, and their number very great, and the governing authority very strictly limited by jealous constitutional restraints, and subject to different and uncon- nected courts of appeal, such limited authority can be more easily endangered. Plence it was that I said, that in such colleges as Maynooth the disadvantages would be greater, and that I would think it a perilous experiment to re-introduce there a system which the Trustees, after some trial, thought jirojier long since to abolish. 13. What are the evils that you apprehend would result from such intercourse in a small commimity ? — Partly those which I have just now endeavoured to describe ; and again, I would fear that if there were at any time among the j)rofessors, or persons in authority. 20//i Ocloher, 165.1. 19. Very Rev. L. F. Ileiielian. d.d., rresident. Of priests ill England ami Scotland, about twenty-live received tlicir education at Maynootli. Annual average of Jlaynooth students who go to other countries. Proportion of Irish priests who were educated at May- nooth on tlie increase. Suggestion of increased intercourse between ]irofessors and pupils. Xot advisable in the present constitution of the College. Disadvantages of. 224 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. 20/A Oclohrr, 185--J. Very Itev. L. 1'. Kenelian, d.d., President. l)iminutioii of resjieet for authority. liscfiil influence of professors would not be iiureased. As to practice of .associating with co- diocesans. .Vssociation with different companions at different pern-ds of recreation, viz., co-diocesans after dinner; class-fellows after first lecture ; indiscriminately after breakfast ; (!ompanions chosen according to appoint- ment after supper. I’r.ictice neither encouraged or dis- courageil by College authorities. even one whose conversation was sometimes less improving, or circumspect, or suited to the condition find edification of students, evils of another kind might arise, even in a small community, wliich, liowever, in a large community would be very much greater. 18. The evil which you apprehend, I presume, is, that familiarity would breed a contempt of authority ? — Not exactly a contempt ; 1 stated, rather, that I feared it miglit weaken or lessen respect for authority, having before my mind, not merely tlie direct etfects of such familiarity or coiniianionship, but also the danger that it mi^ht lead to suspicions of par- tiality or prejudice towards those students with whom a pi'ofessor might hapjien more or less frecpiently to associate, and to jealousies, little iiiirties, a less even unagitated tone of feeling, and, in consecpience, a less simple, undiscriminating, religious resjiect for authority than would be desirable. Its advantages, moreover, would not be very great in so large a Ckdlege as Alaynooth, where a professor could not often be the companion of any one indi- vidual, the number of students being so great in lu'ojioition to the number of professors. 14. Taking the nuinberof students at Maynooth roughly, at live hundred, and the num- ber of the professors at twenty, that would give a proportion of about one to tweiitv-hve, and you are of opinion that with that ])ropoition of one to twenty-live, the professor could not exercise much personal influence, in forming the character, the manners, and habits of the students, by his intercourse with them ? — I am fully i)ersuaded that the professors, in the proportion specified, do always exercise much personal influence in forming the cha- racter and habits of the students by their intercourse with them, according to the system long established at IMaynooth. l>ut I doubt very much whether such useful inlluence would be increased, in proportion to the suggested increase of familiar intercourse on somewhat different occasions. I do not even feel certain that such useful inlluence might not be rather diminished thereby. On the whole, balancing the advantages with the disadvan- tages of the suggested alteration, I am of opinion, that it is not desirable to try the experi- ment, and that it would not be found an improvement. 15. Is it not a fact, that at present either in practice or hy rule, the students of parti- cular dioceses consort with each other, and not with those froin other dioces(;s ? — T’here is no rule to regulate the associations of the students : they consort with whom they j)lease. If). Is not that the practice in the school ? — It is a fact, that they consort with other students of the same diocese, but not exclusively : they consort also w ith those from other dioceses. Every student chooses, at discrefion, the companions with whom he will take his walks or exercises, and the authorities of the house scarcely ever know with whom he associates. Students from the same neighbourhood, county, or diocese, or who were for- merly at the same school, or otherwise well acapiainted, and friends, before they came to Maynooth, and who are soon to return for life together to the same districts again, will naturally wish to maintain these early connexions, and often associate with each other. But while there is probably no student in Maynooth who does not associate with several students from other dioceses than his own. there are constantly some students who seldom or never choose their companions from their own diocese. 17. Does the practice prevail of students from the same diocese associating together; and is it encoui'aged by the authorities? — The practice prevails, but only as fai- as 1 have stated. The students choose for themselves their own companions, without any resti'iction or sug- gestion whatever. The actual result is, that they usually walk with those, of their own dioceses at some one or other of the hours of recreation, with some of their class-fellow'S not from their own dioceses at another, and at other hours of recreation, with companions, I could not say how selected, unless by mere taste and choice. IH. How do you distinguish the hours of recreation ? — The principal times of recreation are after breakfast, dinner, and suppei', after classes, I'i c. I'J. At what hour do they walk in dioceses, and at what hour do they mix generally with the students ? — As far as I know', they associate with ])crsons i'rom the same dioceses I)rincipally after dinner ; with their class-fellows after their first lecture, at half-past eleven ; with others from the same class, or the same diocese, or neither, after breakfast ; and after supper with others wdiom they choose likewise, wuthout' reference to dioceses or classes. To prevent disappointments they agiee to meet and walk with each other at these daily stated times of recreation, so that the same three, or four, or live companions walk together every day at the same hours, except after supi>er, when I understand they have commonly dift'erent sets of companions for different nights, and thus not rarely associate .at this hour of recreation with as many as twenty companions during the seven nights of the week. These observations, how'ever, are ap^dicable only to these stated daily hours of recreation, and even to these >only, as far as regards those students who spend them only in walking round the grounds and corridors or cloisters. At other exercises and amusements, on the public walks outside the College, at the extra times of relaxation on Wednesdays and other days, there are usually no companions previously selected, but every student associates with those who may he disi)Osed to join in the same amusement, or whom accident m.ay bring m his way. 20. Will you be good enough to state whether the practice of confining their associations to students of the same dioceses is encouraged by the authorities of the College ? — The authorities of the College have given neither encouragement nor discouragement to the jiractice, if sucli a practice can he properly said to exist at all, but have left entirely to tire choice of the students to select each his ow'ii companions. They would wish, it is true, tlie students, particularly the more inexperienced and ductile, to keep company with those from whose conversation and example they could derive improvement, and w'ould regret that a student should habitually shun such companions, through levity, or eccentricity of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 225 clifiracter, tlirongli ill-tcinpor, or a disrelish for improving conversation or clerical habits. If it appeared that it was from snch feelings a student never associated with his oldest friends and acipiaintances from the same diocese or school, and particularly if the person being liimself unpromising, selected others of a less commendable character for his com- panions, tlie authorities, if they ha ppened to know it, would not think so favourably of him, and would discourage such associations. 21. I low did the practice grow np of the students selecting the hour after dinner for meeting in dioceses? — If the question imply a belief that all the students of the same diocese are accustomed to ^\■alk together in one parky, it is entirely unfounded in fact ; each company consists of from two to hve persons. I can see a reason why they generally consort with some of their class-fellows after lecture, but I know no reason why it is more generally after dinner than after breakfast, that the greater number of them pi'efer to asso- ciate with some of their old acquaintances from the same diocese. 22. Then the ])ractice now exists, not by any rule, hut by some tradition of the College in former times ? — It rests solely upon the free choice of the students ; there never was a rule on the subject. 23. AVould it he remarked if a student frequentl}^ quitted those of his own diocese, and associated after dinner with others who were not his own diocesans ? — I do not recollect that I ever heard any remarks made on the matter, though it is a case which I have no doubt must be at all times of frequent occurrence. 24. If it has been stated that such a practice, if persevered in, would lead to a refusal of Orders, that is not (jnite a correct representation of tlie fact ? — Certainly not. 25. Are you aware of any student having been at all rebuked by any of the authorities of the College, for having consorted with persons not of his own diocese ? — I am not ; nor can I easil}' believe such a case to have occurred, unless the companions so selected were unedifying or otherwise objectionable. 20. It has been stated to the Commissioners that if, after dinner, a student was seen walking with a student from another diocese, the monitor would point it out to him ? — I have no hesitation in sajdng that I never knew a monitor in Maynootli to do any such thing. The statement must be unfounded. It is impossible to walk among the students after dinner without meeting several such cases ; they constantly fall under my own personal observation, and in no one instance did I ever reprove the parties. 27. If any such practice exists it is unknown to you ? — I never heard of it ; it does not exist. 28. Perhaps the practice is one that would come more under the cognizance of the dean than under your own ? — If the dean found fault with it, and thought it a matter for which a young man should be excluded from Orders, or otherwise punished, as a matter of course it would come befoi’e me. 29. You Avould not think worse of a student who associated with persons not of his own diocesef and not with those of his own, unless there were some cmcumstance, such as levity of character, which you perceive ? — I should not think the worse of him, on that account alone. But if a student would in no instance recognise, or ever associate with those good companions, whom he miist have known before he came to College, and with whom he was to live afterwards when he left it, I would think it rather a peculiar taste ; and if it arose from moroseness of temper, oddity, levity, or inconstancy of character, I would think less favourably of him. But if, on the contrary, I happened to know that a studious, edifying, well-educated student had selected for his companion a more edifying and better educated jmung man from any other diocese than he had in his own, I should rather commend his choice, and it would raise him in my estimation. 30. A prize man would probably rather like to associate with another prize man, than with the blockheads from his own diocese ? — If he selected his companions on that prin- ciple, whether from his own or another diocese, it would be considered that he showed good sense, and a very commendable desu’e for improvement. 31. You consider that a certain amount of fusion, between the students coming from different parts of Ireland, would be rather advantageous than btherwise ? — Decidedly. 32. Have you been yourself in any college in which the professors dine with the students, and join with them in some portion of their daily religious exercise? — I have not been in any college, unless on a visit for a few weeks, where the professors dine with the students; but in Maynootli the professors join with the students in the prmcipal, and in some of the minor daily exercises of religion. 33. You were educated at Ma}mooth, were you not? — Yes. 34. And you have been always at Maynootli? — Yes ; I was educated at Maynooth, and have continued to be a resident member of the College since I first entered it. The pro- fessors and students, I have often heard, originally dined there also together. This system, I think, continued until the College became considerably enlarged, when the Trustees as well as the professors of the College, I believe, unanimously thought it expedient to abolish that custom, and to substitute for it the system which still prevails. 35. Did the change take place in your time ? — No. 36. In what year did the change take place ? — The number of students was much increased in 1800, and in 1808 ; and I think it was on either of these two occasions the change was efl’ected. 37. When you stated that you thought that the system suggested would be attended with disadvantages, did you apply that to a system of this kind, that the professors would dine with the students and join in some of their religious exercises, which they perform 20//t Ocloher, 1852. Very Rev. L. F. Renehaii, d.d., President. Whether violation of praetice would be remarked. Would not lead to a refusal of orders. Have not heard of a monitor animadvert- ing upon violation of practice. But perseverance in such violation would be considered a peculiarity. Fusion between stu- dents from different parts of Ireland ad- vantageous. Suggestion of professors joining in religious exercises. 220 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. ZOth October, 1853. Very Rev. L. F. Rcnehan, d.d.. President. Objections to the proposal that profes- sors and pupils should take their meals together. Whether professors take anj' part in dis- cipline of College. D uties as to discipline imposed on profes- sors by Statutes. Whether it would be considered an impro- priety for professors to visit the students in their rooms. Would be considered singular. daily ; or do you consider that those two matters would tend to injure the discipline of the hoitse ? — I think that their union in some of the daily religious exercises could not have any such effect, and in point of fact they do so unite every da3^ But their dining together, I think, would not be an improvement. 88. Would the dining together, do you think, be injurious to discipline ? — I think it would rather have that tendency. 39. In what way, and from what cause? — From the different avocations, condition, and ages of the professors and students ; from the difference, though not very great, of their treatment and service at table ; from the graduallj" gi’owing effects of the inevitable viola- tion of the common refectory discipline by strangers, who may sometimes visit and accept hospitality in the College ; from the want of space to accommodate any additional number in our refectory ; and from other such causes. In the self-denjung discipline of Ma_ynooth, and other ecclesiastical colleges, silence is strictly maintained throughout the whole time of dinner, and every thing avoided that might unnecessarily distract attention from the Scriptures, and other instructive books, which are then publicly read. The utmost fidelity is exi)ected from the students in the observance of this rule, as well as punctualit}" in the times of coming to and leaving the hall; in a total abstinence from wine and such liquors within the College, except on two festivals of the year, &c., &c. These and other similar refectory usages enter into the system at Maynooth, designed to store the j'oung ecclesiastic’s mind with knowledge, and to raise him to exalted vh’tues. The professors went themselves through the whole course of this system formerly, but they have since had to conform to other habits, and the customs of society. Strangers in these countries would find it intolerable, and neither would nor could observe it. The students feeling that silence was not maintained — that older people, detained, perhaps, by tbeir special duties, Avere not quite exact in attending at the bell — that the professors did not observe the rule laid down for the students, “ne quicquam peculiare in mensa aiit alia quacumque re usurpent” — might lose half their respect for their rule, and, considering their numbers, discipline might suffer serious injury. 40. Does any thing else occur to jmu, except what you have stated, that would be lik ely to be injurious in that practice ? — Nothing else particularly, just now. 41. Do the professors take any part at all in the disciplme of the College ; for instance, if they witnessed any breach of discipline, Avould they have authority to notice it by com- municating it to one of the officers specially charged with the discip>line of the College ? — To notice it so Avould require no authority; and though it did, their authoritj^ would not be in any case questioned. 42. Have they anj^ authoritj'? — They have a great deal; but no authority would be requisite for the matter specified ; any person could do it. 43. Have they any more authority than j^ou have specified? — Thej' have much implied in, and naturally resulting from their office and position, AA’hich thej" are expected to exert, when occasion requires, in support of discipline and order. But the}' have extensive authority in their classes, and over theii' respective pupils. 44. But out of their classes have they any authority? — Yes; I do not know that they haA'e any formal authority, explicitly conveyed by the letter of a statute, for our Statutes scarcely ever allude to authority, unless as implied by duties ; but they have that influence and authority Avhich would, in no case, be questioned, and which woxdd be practically of the same kind as the deans usually exercise. The proffissors are not charged with the obliga- tion of looking after discipline, in its several details ; but the Statutes (cap. v., s. 5, and cap. xii., s. 5), impose upon them some duties relating to discipline in matters of much importance, and in very comprehensive teims. 45. Would it be deemed a proper thing for a professor to perform that part of the duty of the dean Avhich consists in visiting the students’ rooms, in risiting them while in the study halls, and in keeping an eye upon their conduct while there, but not in class ? — Those are onerous duties, Avhich it would not be expected that a professor would vohmteer to perform, and probably he would be deemed rather singular if he did so without some necessity or weighty cause. 40. The question is not whether it would be too onerous for a professor, but avIi ether, if he did it, he would be considered as improperly trsmsgressing his functions ? — I cannot say transgressing his functions ; but he would be going beyond his duties, and taking ujxon himself laborious and irksome functions which he is not bound nor expected to perform. 47. Would it be regarded as an impropriety, and as interfering Avith the duty of the deans ? — With respect to its interference Avith the authority of the deans, so far I think no impropriety would be committed. 48. My question Avas whether his doing so AA'ould be regarded in the College among the superiors as an improper assumption of duty and authority, Avhich is not cast upon him by the rules of the College ? — I understood the former question to be a little different from this last. On either I never heard any superior express any opinion ; but I think the superiors would not complain of any improper assumption of their authority by the professors Avho Avould do so. But the students, perhaps, might complain, particularly of such A’isits to their rooms and halls ; the superiors would not. at all events, expect it, and perhaps might deem it indiscreet, imprudent, and not desirable, as far as regards the rooms and halls ; and I am confident they, and every body else, AA’ould consider it an indication of a singular and very peculiar taste. 49. In fact the rule of the College confers upon them no direct authority, and their assuming it would be regarded as a peculiarity of taste ? — It certainly would be regarded MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 227 in that light, as far as relates to their visiting the halls and private rooms, and, perhaps, also to any habitually vigilant supervision of the students’ conduct; but in matters comprised under the Statutes referred to, or happening, unsought for, to fall under observation, it would be regarded as meritorious or obligator}’, thatthe professors should actively co-operate to the maintenance of discipline. 50. Will you be good enough to refer to the fifth chapter in the Statutes upon the duties of the professors, and read what it states upon the subject of the duties of the professors ? — “ Let the professors uniformly and scrupulously observe the time ap})ointed for their duties ; let it be their care to have their pupils modest and docile ; let them not conceal such as are remarkable for talent, duluess, or sloth, from the President, who is to apprize the dean of such circumstance.” 51. Does the professor by that seem to be at all intrusted or charged with the duty of maintaining discipline ? — He does with regard to his pupils, and more particularly in his lectiu'e-hall ; but I think not with the maintenance of discipline generally. 52. Will you be good enough to turn to the fourth chapter, relating to the deans ? — This chapter enumerates the many duties and obligations of the deans with reference to the maintenance of discipline ; but makes explicit mention of their authority or right only in one case, where they are commanded to perform a duty disagreeable in itself, and interfering, perhaps disagreeably, with tlie feelings and w’ishes of the students. The expressions there used, eodeniquo Praises et Proproises jure, show that the President is vested with a similar right, though it is not explicitly mentioned in the chapter relating to his office, simply because its performance is not imposed upon him as a duty, nor ordinarily expected from him. The professors, too, have an authority for the promotion of good order similarly implied in their position and office, though expressly mentioned only when some definite duty of obligation is enjoined. This analogy rather confirms my impression that the para- graph just read from the fifth chapter refers to an obligation of the professor with regard to his own class and pupils, rather than to the discipline generally through the College. 53. At the same time would you conceive, if a professor casually saw any thing going on that he did not approve of in the conduct of any of the students, that it would be a duty beyond his functions to take notice of it ? — Certainly not; nay I think every body would expect, if a professor saw not a mere Little trifling breach of discipline, but any considerable disorder, that he would discountenance and prevent it ; and if he thought proper even to reprove the students, his authority would not be questioned, and his conduct would be justly commended. When a professor, myself, I have done so whenever a case arose, which I cannot say was very frequent ; and I as efiectually remedied such little disorders by the mere expression of countenance, or other signs of disapproval, as if I had been invested with the fullest authority of the dean or the President. 51. Do you think at present, if one of the professors were to see any breach of discipline on the part of any student in recreation hours, or in the galleries at other times, he would be authorized to correct and speak to that student authoritatively on the spot, without reference to the dean or the President? — He would. I think a professor would have authority so to speak if there were any considerable breach of discipline ; as to small and trilling infractions, I think he w'ould still have authority ; but its exercise would not be so much expected as if the violation of order were of a more weighty character. 55. If it were not of a very serious character would it be expected that he should com- municate to the dean, and not himself interfere ? — It would not be ordinarily expected that the professor should communicate with the dean about a breach of discipline that was not of a serious character, whether he did or did not interfere himself. In no instance that I remember did I communicate with the dean while I was professor, nor did a case arise during the seven years, in which I felt inyself called upon to do so. 50. Do you consider that there is any inconvenience arising from the relative position of the dean and the jirofessor, the dean, although a junior, having a kind of precedence of a professor, however much he may be his senior ; so that a man who had at one time had a certain precedence as a dean, v/hen he became Professor of Theology would rather sink in point of station ? — I can see nothing in all that to warrant either surprise or regret. It is exactly what occurs in every college, lay or clerical ; in every profession ; in every department of public or private business, from the lowest to the highest. In all, as at Maynooth, the order of precedence between persons holding different offices is regulated not by the age or standing of the officers, but b}’ the offices they fill. How often is not the subaltern or captain every way older than the colonel, general, or admiral ; the priest than the bishop; the attorney than the lawyer, judge, or chancellor; the squire, baronet, or baron than the duke, or the representative even of Majesty ? This high example, or rather this very general principle, is followed also even in schools, where the tutor is not rarely older than the principal ; and the chancellor, provost, or rector, is not always the officer of the greatest age or standing in the universities. So it is also at Maynooth. The librarian and bursar, as well as the deans, take precedence of the professors, and the professors themselves take precedence of each other not by their ages or standing, but by the chairs they occupy. One of junior deans is senior to all the Professors of Theology but one, the professor whose place is the lowest in rank is superior in seniority to those that are highest, and indeed to almost every officer in the College ; and the professor last appointed, because Professor of Sacred Scripture, ranks before others who were his own Professors of Philosophy, &c., several years ago, and before some who were professors in Maynooth almost before he was born. The office, moreover, of the deans relates to duties of the highest and holiest importance, always onerous, and often so disagreeable, unpopular, and arduous, that 2 2 20//t Oclohcr, 185S. 19. Very Rev. L. F. Heneliiin u.d., I’resident. Duty of professors to have tlieir pujiils modest and docile. Refers to their con- duct in class. Propriety of a profes- sor noticing any serious disorder taking place under his eyes. and of speaking authoritatively to the student in such a case. As to alleged incon- venience arising from i)recedence of deans over profes- sors. Nothing strange or unusual in sucli an arrangement. 228 MAYiVOOTII COMMISSION. UOth October, 1853, Very Rev. L. F. Renehan, d.d., President. Relation of profes- sors and pupils in lecture room not affected either way by disconnexion of professors with discipline. As to professors con- ducting public walks. No such case has ever occurred. Inadvisable that superiors shoulddiue with students on festival days. Analogy of Oxford and Cambridge does not apply. As to raising standard of educa- tion at entrance. I think it very desirable to maintain as much as can be, tbe antborit}' and respect wliicb they require for tbe public weal to a very considerable extent. It was, perhaps, on this account that in Maynootb, as in all other colleges that I know, tbe persons intrusted with tbe government of the bouse and tbe promotion of piety, are placed in rank before those whose duties are not so sacred, so important, nor, perhaps, even so arduous. 57. Do you think it is a positive advantage, in any way, that tbe professors should be totally unconnected with tbe maintenance of discipline ? — I do not. I should rather say, however, that tbe professors are understood to take an interest in tbe discipline, and have a zeal for its enforcement. 58. Do you think that a student under tbe present system feels more at ease with the professor in tbe lecture-room, inasmuch as it is not tbe professor’s duty to control him, or to supervise bis conduct ? — His ease in tbe lecture-room, I tbmk, wordd neither be increased nor diminished by tbe interference of tbe professor in tbe enforcement of disci- pline. Tbe student is as much at ease with tbe dean as be is witli tbe professor, and has more intercourse with him. It is, moreover, tbe professor’s duty, and bis alone, to supervise tbe conduct of tbe students, and maintain discipline in tbe lecture-ball; and if this super- vision were extended to their conduct generally, whatever other effects tbe system might have, it would not, I am confident, interfere with tbe delivery of tbe lectures by tbe profes- sors, nor with tbe solicitude of tbe student to display bis knowledge to the best advantage. 59. May a professor now conduct tbe students in their public walks if be pleases? — Not in opposition to tbe wishes of tbe dean, nor without bis knowledge; I am confident, however, that the deans would feel greatly obliged to a professor who did so. But it is not expected, because this is considered a burdensome and disagreeable duty. 60. Would it be considered an improper assumption of authority if be did so ? — He is not required to do it. It is not any part of bis duty ; but I doubt whether bis doing so would be ever looked upon as an act of authority at all. 01. Would it be looked upon as afi assumption of a function, or a something that be ought to have refrained from ? — I rather think every body would imagine, if there were not some special reason, that be was doing what be ought not to do, unless at tbe request of tbe President or supeiiors, and what would not be expected from him ; but it would not be complained of as a matter of jealousy, or an assumption of authority. 02. Would it be deemed obtrusive? — I think it would not; but I do not expect that tbe case will ever arise. 03. Has tbe case ever arisen, and been discussed ? — Never, to my knowledge ; and hence, I am not prepared to offer, confidently, anj^ opinion on tbe mere abstract question, whether or not the professors have any legal authority for this function implied in them office. But at tbe request of tbe President or tbe dean in vacation times, or when tbe dean w^as unwell, a professor has bad tbe kindness to conduct tbe students on tbek walks in some instances. 04. You are inclined to think, then, that tbe exemption of tbe professors from a greater participation in tbe maintenance of discipline is rather a privilege ? — A jufivilege perhaps it might be called, but only in the sense, that tbe duty of maintaining discipline is not imposed upon them farther than I have stated ; but neither is tliat duty imposed on the students, nor tbe duty of lecturing upon tbe deans, which exceptions, however, can scarcely be called privileges. 05. No objection would be made if a dean, when, for instance, a friend called upon him, requested a i)rofessor to perform bis duty, and to accompany tbe students on their walks ? — No, if it occurred but very seldom, and from necessity. GO. You would not object to that being done ? — No. 07. He could not do it without your permission ? — No; but it would be required only because the dean would be expected to do bis own duty, and because tbe students could not go into tbe country without tbe President’s permission. 08. Do you think it would be unadvisable for tbe President and tbe officers of the Col- lege to dine in tbe ball wfitb tbe students on great occasions — for instance, tbe celebration of certain festivals ? — I think it would. 09. You are aware that it is tbe practice in tbe Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge, and with many other societies, for tbe fellows to dine at tbe high table, are you not ? — I am ; but I think tbe balls of Oxford and Cambridge, tbe accommodation they can afford to their numbers, and tbe discipline there enforced, present a very striking contrast to tbe ball and discipline of Maynootb. One row of tables at tbe sides along tbe ball or part of it, generally suffices to dine tbe members that assemble in tbe University Colleges, tbe centre of tbe ball being vacant, and tbe whole open to inspection. Tbe Maynootb ball, although crowded with tables and seats around all its sides, and across through tbe whole length of its centre, yet affords such very scanty room for dining near four hundred stu- dents, that, plainly, it could not at all accommodate also tbe professors. Tbe discipbne also in tbe Universities at and after dinner. I need scarcely sa}', differs very widely from that which is observed at Ma^mootb ; and hence, too, a custom, though of old prevaibng in tbe former, might not be desirable in tbe latter. 70. Amu think that it wmuld be desirable rather to diminish tbe number in that one ball at Alaynootb ? — A^es ; it is alreadj" rather too much crowded. 71. Should you see any difficulty in raising tbe standard of education necessary for admission into tbe College of Maynootb ? — I have already expressed myself very besitat- mgly as to tbe prudence of raising tbe standard of admission. I see some reason to fear that if tbe standard were raised, tbe places in College should often be left vacant, and MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 229 that considerable inconvenience would result, particidarly to those districts which stand most in need of the advantages which iMaynooth supplies. 72. But the great deficiency being found to be in the preliminary English studies, would it in your opinion be very difficult for those districts to make increased provision for the preliminary English education ? — 1 should consider it easier to improve in that respect than in others. 7;b For instance, that more care should be taken as to grammar, and as to writing, and as to spelling ? — Yes ; so much would appear to me a very moderate demand. 74. And a familiaritj' with good models of English composition? — Yes. 75. These, you are of opinion, would not be very difficult to introduce into almost any Itrepai'atory school ? — No, it would not be difficult, unless too high a standard of profi- ciency in composition were rigorously enforced. I’m*, in districts unprovided with good preparatory schools, there might be found sometimes a good deal of difficulty in procuring a sufficient number of candidates well (pialified to stand a rigorous test in that depart- ment. By raising the standard too highly in that as in any other department, the difficulties of (pialification for admission might be also too much increased. 7(5. Do you consider it very desirable, as far as possible, that all these preliminary parts of education should be pretty well advanced before a young man came to Maynooth ? — I tliink it very desirable, more particularly in the English department. I should feel less difficulty in raising the standard in that waj^ than in any other, and I think it comes more easily within the reach of the remoter districts to improve the preparatory education in the mere English department than in the Latin and Greek classics. 77. You could more easily undertake to supply the deficiencies that existed in the classical education within your own walls? — Yes. 78. You might make some exercise in English composition a preliminary part of your entrance course, might you not? — Yes ; I think that might be done. 79. Would not that be an improvement? — If a high class of comi^osition were expected as necessary, it would increase the difficulty very much. 80. But good spelling and grammatical composition, I presume, you woidd not think too high ? — Certaiidy not; I see no reason to object to, at least, so much. 81. Do you think that it would give great encouragement to the study of English if it were peremptorily insisted that every student, who was not very competent in Enghsh, should enter always into the lowest Flumanity Class, taking care to make the examination more rigorous in English for those who aspired to a higher class ? — I think it would. 82. At present, I believe, that is not the practice ? — There is no examination in English further than a riva voce translation from Greek and Latin, and a narrative in histoiy. 88. But the same knowledge of English that Avould now enable a man to enter the lowest Humanity Class, would equally enable him to enter the Logic Class, would it not? — Yes; it might happen that the candidate less advanced in Greek and Latin would know Enghsh fully as well as the other. But a better style of translation, and, so far at least, a better knoAvledge of English would be required as a qualification imUspensahle for entering the Logic Class than would be so required for admission to Humanity. 84. It is an object with the student to enter into as high a class as he can, is it not? — Generally, it is. 85. Do you see any objection to the plan that has been suggested of bracketing two or three of the courses together, say the course of physics with the course of logic, so that those two courses should go hand in hand, the same student being for two years in each ? — I doubt very much whether the change would be an improvement. In colleges for ecclesiastical education, both in Ireland and on the Continent generalljs the same S3"stem is preferred as at Maynooth, namelj', logic, metaphysics, and ethics are studied as a separate course, unmixed with mathematics and physics, which are united together also and form another separate j^ear’s course. The prevalence of the practice in such colleges seems to imply, that it Avas found the best for clerical students. In that system each course, consisting of several cognate departments, and subject to similar argument and eA'idence, presents as much variety as is required bj^ students of serious, thoughtful cliaracter. Every class and hour of study tends directlj^ as a preparation for the next class and study ; the requisite preliminary knowledge is alAvays lively and fresh, and the mind in a tone suited to its work. The suggested system tends, I fear, to distract the youthful student’s mind too much betAveen topics Avhich are not only of a totally different or opposite nature, but require to be investigated bj^ different kinds of evidence. What studies can be, in every way, more different or conflicting than those of metaphysics and mathematics, logic and astronomy', psj'chology and mechanics or mensuration. The more diligently the student applied himself to the one in the morning, the less inclined is he, the more unfitted becomes the tone and frame of his mind, for the study of the other in the evening. A general result would be, that the students would divide their attention very disproportionately betAveen both departments, and each, according to his inclination and taste, would apply himself too exclusively to the one, and too much neglect the other. The taste for logic, metaphysics, and moral philosophy is generally so much more prevalent at Maynooth than the taste for mathematics and natural philosoph}", I should fear very much, that if the suggested system were adopted there, the latter depaiTment would be neglected, and that b}^ far the gi’eater number of students would think it more useful, and feel more inclined to devote even a disproportionate part of the tAvo years to the study of moral philosophj-'. 20//( Ocloler, 1853. 19 . Very llcv. L. F. Kcneliiin, d.d.. President. Desiralile to raise the standard in English. To Avhat extent. More rigorous exa- mination for higher classes. Suggested combina- tion of logic and natural philosophy classes. Such combination inexpedient in the opinion of the Presi- dent, and liis reasons- 230 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. 20//t October, 1853. 19 . Very Rev. L. r. Reiiehan, d.d., rresidunt. Objections to present system. Suggested proposal would not be an improvement, and wliy. 80 . Will you have the goodness to consider two inconveniences which seem to arise under the present system : the study of mathematics is dropped at the end of the rhetoric year, whilst the student is in the class of logic, metaphysics, and ethics, to he resumed when he enters upon the x^hysics year, there bemg, therefore, a break of one year in the study of mathematics. Agaui, the study of language and of philosox)hy is dropped at the end of the logic year, during the time that the student is in the class of jiliysics, to be resumed, in some form or other, with a different ax)plication, when he commences the first class of theology; so that, in fact, at ju’esent there is an alternative break or want of continuation in the two studies, from which it would appear, that when he has to resume the stud}' of mathematics in the year of j^hysics, and the study of philosoiihy, as applied to divine things in moral theolog}', he again has to get ux) what he has forgotten, to a certain extent. That is one inconvenience. The other is, that the curriculum of X^hilosophy appears to be too comprehensive to be mastered effectively in a single year. In the same way the curriculum of physics seems, likewise, too comprehensive to be mastered in a single year ; and it has been suggested, that by spreading them over two years, the student would have more time to master the whole of those subjects, and that the concurrent studies would not clash with, or, in any way, imx>ede the progress of the student. Ux)on a careful consideration of the matter, is your exx)erience favourable to, or adverse to, the view which is now suggested ? — It does not appear to me, that a student would be better able in the half of two years to get through a certain quantity of business than in the whole of one. If the logic course be now too large for one year, and the XJli3'sics coiu’se too large for another 3'ear, I think the same two courses, read concurrently, would be too large for two years. The other alleged inconvenience, from a supxiosed greater break in the study of moral x^hilosoxffiy, languages, and sciences in the x^resent than in the suggested system, seems to me not much weightier. In the present system the study of moral philosox^hy suffers no interrux)tion whatever ; it occupies the student’s continuous undivided attention during one year, after which it is not again resumed ; for, theology is altogether a different science, a different sort of stud3^ much less the ax)x>hca- tion to divine things of mere unenlightened reason, than of Sacred Scrixffure, councils, and X^ositive laws, with the commentaries thereon. Nor is there, in the x^i’esent system, a break in the study of any language. What is called an interruption is only the interval between the study of French and the study of Irish, two languages so utterly foreign to each other in vocabulaiy, construction, characters, and grammar, that they ought not to be united ; and that if the present interval were doubled or trebled, it might xu'oduce an ideal inteiTux)tion, but, in 1113’ ox?inion, not a x^urticle of inconvenience. The suggested .alteration of system would, moreover, neither increase, nor diminish, nor alter this interval which would still subsist the same, and at the same time, between the termination of French with the first ye.ar of philosopli3% and the commencement of Irish with the second 3’ear of divinit3a The stud3’- of mathematics and natural x^hilosoxffy' is also less broken or interrupted, and with much less inconvenience in our present S3^stem than in the other. For, first, there is, altogether, only one break, and whatever inconvenience might result therefrom, is more than ob\iated by some classes of revision, wdiich not onl3' refresh, but extend and more deex:»ly engr.ave the knowledge xu’eviously acquired, and which, though there were no interruxffion, would be veiy expedient. During the whole of the 3'ear esx^ecially devoted to science, the student’s attention is fixed undividedly upon it — no other w'eighty studies are allowed to come into rivahy or collision wuth it ; and betw'een the time when he revises algebra and geometry, or learns xffane and sx^herical trigonometiy, and the latest time at which he has to ax^ply them in learning the higher branches of mathematics or x)h3"sics, not more than eight or nine months intervene, during which he has been constantly ax^phung those branches to others, and at the end of which he knows that he is to be examined on tlie one as w^ell as the other. But if the tw’o courses be braced together, and read concurrently, there will be a break every day of the twm years, a break, too, w’hich, however short, must inconvenient^ distract and divide the student’s attention, keexr the current of his thoughts in a x^ei’xretual zigzag, and daily turn him away from mathematics, indeed, from one study and the other, just when his curiosity has been enlivened, and he has w’armed to his work. Every da3^, at a fixed Iroirr, he rrrust disrrriss from his mind the whole train of ideas belorrgirrg to one coiu’se,to atterrd orrty to those of another ; he rrrirst disrrriss, sa3% the measurement of solids, to atterrd to the rules of syllogisnrs ; or, Xrerhaps, astrorrom3’-, to turrr to metaphysics ; or, xrerhaps, give up weighing the great Xrrinciples of ethics, in order to resume the lessoir he had sirrrilarly interrupted the day before in ox^tics or galvanism. Agairr, the interval hetw'eerr the learnhrg of the earlier brairches of mathematics, and their’ apphcatiorr to the higher and to physics, would range, rrot as at preserrt, hetweerr a few weeks aird a few months, but between orre and four ye.ars. For trigonorrretry the interval worrld average one year ; for geometry, two ; for algebra, three 3'ears; and these iirterruxrtions worrld be rrot mere breaks in the outline or exterior view’ of a systerrr, but x^i’actical obstructiorrs to the x'Ji’ogi’ess of the student, who requires to have these earher brarrches fresh hr his memory, and read3’ at his call while he sturhes the higher branches, for rrrost of which the apxrlicatiorr of the others is rrecessary. 87 . Bearirrg iir mind what 3’ou stated as to the contirrual apxrhcation of geometr3^ arrd algebra itr the higher branches, does not it axrxrear to yorr tlrat the gaxr hr the strrdy accord- ing to 3'our present S3’stem, is likely to x^rodrrce a failure of memor3’ as to those earlier strrdies ? — No; I rreed not rexreat wTrat has been so often stated in our visitatiorr repor'ts, and I xu'esume in some of the answers to “ Paxrer C. 20 ,” that a revision of algebra and MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 231 geometry immcdiatel}’’ precedes the study of the higher hrunches of mathematics and physics ; but moreover, I was observing, tliat the gap would he greater in the other system. At present the greatest possible interval between the formal study of algebra and its application is less than one year; in the other s}’stem it could never be less, it would average at least one j^ear more, and there would be an interru 2 )tion of a year and a half, or two years, or more between the day on which the student read geometry (it would be of another additional year for algebra) and the day that he would require to have it at his fingers ends for ap 2 )lication to astronomj' and optics. The interval between the applica- tion of trigonometry and conic sections is now a few weeks ; it would in the other be a year or more, devoted also to a dill'erent course of studies. 88. In the one case the subject would be continuously before him, and in the other, it would be dismissed from his mind, and his attention occui)ied by another subject ? — Yes. 89. Ill the course of jihysics, would there be a constant ajqilication, more or less, of mathematics ? — In the course of ^ihysics, there would be, to some extent, a frequent aj)})!!- cation of some branches of mathematics. 90. Will not that keep the practice of mathematics and algebra constantl}^ before the mind of the student ? — I think it will, to a certain very limited extent ; but their knowledge will not be as fresh after one, two, or more years, as after a few weeks or months. 91. During those two years that he would be learning physics, would he not be continu- ally a^iplying mathematics? — More or less, but only to a small extent. There are but some branches of mathematics, and but a comparatively few princijiles of these, that are very often ajiiilied in the study of physics. 92. At iiresent, are you awai’e how much time is devoted to chemistry, if there is any? — I think for some time jiast there has been very little, if any ; some years ago there was much more. 93. Does it occur to you that chemistry and geology ought to be taught more fully ; geology is not taught at all, is it ? — It is not taught as a separate department ; it is treated rather incidentally than as a matter of regular study, and chiefly in connexion with the history of creation, and the stud}^ of Sacred Scrij)ture. 94. It is not taught exjierimentally ; specimens are not produced? — No; there is no oppoidunity ; there is no museum. 95. Are jmu able to state, in detail, what the course given in the natural philosojfliy year is, that wdiich is taught by Dr. Callan ? — It commences with a revision of algebra and geo- metry, both of which the student had learned before, each during one year — 95. In the second last class ? — Yes. 97. That is supposing the student was there ? — Y^es ; iDractically a student may be con- sidered to have been there, for, if not in Maynooth, liis entrance examination must have proved that he learned these somewhere else. Then foUow in the course, jflane and spherical trigonometry, conic sections, mechanics, astronomjq hydrostatics, pneumatics, and optics. These constitute the course of mathematics and f)hysics. The j)rofessor, moreover, treats very extensively of electricity, galvanism, and electro-magnetism, and illustrates by an extensive course of experiments, not only these, but also hydrostatics, pneumatics, hydraulics, mechanics, and optics. These experiments are conducted con- currently with the unmixed mathematics, and the mathematical xiart of the physics. 98. How much of his course is devoted to geometry, algebra, trigonometry, and conic sections? — From the beginning of Sejitember to the twenty-first of December; but the exj)eriments in electricity, galvanism, and electro-magnetism, go on concurrently with those mathematical studies. The j^rofessor gets over so much business in so short a time, because the greater j>art of it had been previously read by the students, and made the subject of four examinations — two in algebra, and two in geometry. 99. After Christmas, what is the nature of the course? — It comprises mechanics — which may sometimes, but rarely, be commenced before Christmas — astronomy, hydrostatics, pneumatics, and ojAics, with a course of experiments illustrating chiefly these sciences. 100. When does the course terminate ? — ^^Vith the year in June. 101. How many lectures does he give a week? — Nine, ordinaril}"; two lectures a day, four days in the week, and one lecture on Saturday ; each lectixre being of an hour’s duration. 102. Does he devote any jiGrtion of the course to chemistry, as a distinct branch of study ? — I am not able to say very exactly what proportion he gives to chemistry, but I am under the impression that it does not occu^^y much time, if any. 103. Of course he can give no instruction in 2 >ractical chemistry, agricultural chemistry for instance ? — No ; he does not direct the attention of the students at all to agiicultural chemistry. 104. Geolog}’’ is not taught as a distinct branch of science? — No; it does not form a subject of distinct lectures. 105. Or natural history ? — No. 100. Are his lectures catechetical or jirelectionaiy, with calls ? — His lectures are very miich jirelectionary, but combined, at the same time, with calls. He explains every jiart of the business in the form of regular lectures ; but, after he has exjilained it, he calls the pupils to account at a subsequent class for the substance of the lectures, and to explain every j^art of them over again. In that class every jmrt of the business is first explained to the students, and afterwards the students are interrogated upon their knowledge of it. 107. Are you acquainted enough with the details of his course to say what books are read by the students in the progress of it ? — I thinly I can say, securely, what the text-books are : geometry and trigonometry are learned from the treatises written for the use of the SOlhOclohcr, 1853. la Very Kev. L. F. Ileneh.in, d.b., I’resident. Chemistry — absence of instruction in. Geology. Course of natural philosopliy taught by Dr. Callan. Course before Christmas. After Christmas. Niue lectures weekly. Agricultural che- mistry. Geology. Natural history. His lectures prelec- tionary, combined with calls. Text-books. 232 MAYXOOTH COMMISSION. ZOth Octoher, 1853. 19 . Very Rev. L. F. Eenehan, d.d., President. Possession of tcxt- tooks by students. No scrutiny by the authorities as to poS' session of books by students. Certain class-books must be procured by students at entrance. Class-books in logic, metaijhysics, and ethics. The Bible. Specification of the books required to be possessed by the students. j\Iaynooth students, l)y tlie AbLe Dane, formerly Professor of I'liysics in the College, and republished by the present professor. The volumes usually called the Cambridge Course, by AVood and by Yince, are the class-books for all the other mathematical branches. Electricity and galvanism are read from a treatise written by Pev. Dr. Callan, the present professor. The students, however, are veiy much in the habit of occasionally preferring to the text of their class-books the explanations which Dr. Callan has given in his lectures, from time to time, and which they frequently take down, and preserve. 108. Do you require that the stiidents shall possess copies of the text-hooks ? — Oidy by requiring them to know what they contain, which they cannot do without having the books. 100. YMu do not think that any of them trust to what they can pick up from the lec- turer ? — I think any one of them does not trust to that alone wdiich his memory can retain from the lecture. ^Vhen I said that they take down the lectures, I did not mean exclu- sively that they take dowm merely what the professor has delivered at the preceding lec- ture, but rather that those lectures have been preserved, copied in vacation and at other times, and handed down in manuscript. 110. How many students get those notes ? — The}^ are very common. 111. Do the students leave them when they leave the College? — The students fre- quently lend them ; for instance, a person who used them last year, frequently lends them to a person who w’ants them this year ; but many of them procure copies, and keep them. 112. Is any care taken by yourself, or any of the authorities of the College, that every student shall be supplied with a class-book or class-books ? — No ; the student requires to take care that he be supplied with all his class-books, but he takes care of it himself ; the authorities take care to see that he knows wdiat these books teach. For the accommo- dation of the students, the College has printed, at its own expense, some of the class-books, and those the students are required to procure on their entrance into the class. 113. Which are those that you refer to? — Dr. Delahogue’s treatises on theologjq the course of philosophy, and to the Bible, though not published by the College, the same rule is applied. 111. What are the books used in class which a student is required to obtain, and which have been prepared in the College ? — The books which have been prepared in the College as class-books, and with which the student is i’eossess, but which were not printed at the expense of the College. lib. Which are those ? — The Bible is the first that is put into his hand: then one or two little religious works of spiritual instruction. 117. Are there any books which the authorities of the College require that each student shall have ? — There are no books which the authorities of the College require a student to have but those wdiich form his class-books, and those last mentioned. 118. Yfill you state specifically the names of the books wdiich the authorities of the College require that each student sliall have ? — A Greek and Latin dictionary, a Greek and Latin grammar, and the Latin and Greek classical hooks, whatever they be, that are taught in the Classes of Humanity and Bhetoric, Homer, Horace, Ac., &c. ; the similarly required books for English, French, and Irish ; the Cambridge course of Philosophy and Mathematics, by AVood and Vince ; Dane’s Geometiy and Trigonometiy ; Dr. Callan’s Treatise on Electricity and Galvanism ; and Dr. Delahogue on Theology, and some books for the Irish class — a grammar, I suppose, and a dictionary, not always exactly insisted upon, nor can it well he insisted upon ; an Irish Catechism and Imitation of Christ, and then the books required for the Classes of Sacred Scripture, of Plistory, of Logic, and Phi- losoply, &c., &c. But all these, except the books printed at the expense of the College, and the Bible, are required not by any specific rule to that effect, but only inasmuch as the studeirt is required to know the business wdiich he is to learn in each class, and that he could not learn that business without these hooks. 119. My question referred not to wdiether the student ought, or, as a necessary conse- quence, must have certain hooks ; but as to what w'ere the books wdiich you, or the deans, or the Bursar, or some authority in the College, take care that the student shall have in liis possession ; do they extend to any thing beyond a copy of the Bible, as you have stated, or is that a hook wdiich the authorities require that each student shall have in his posses- sion ? — The authorities do require that a copy of the Bihle shall he in the possession of every student, from the time he first enters College. In order to carry out this arrange- ment more effectually, and to prevent any mistake, the Bursar charges to the entrance account of each student the indce of a Bible, and one or tw'o little pious books for spiritual lecture and instruction, and delivers these books and these only, mto his hands immediatelj'. 120. What other hooks do the authorities requme that a student shall have in his posses- sion ? — If I rightly understand the question, I can oid}^ repeat the answer I gave before : they require hhn to pay for those books which, as I stated, w^ere printed for the use of the students, at the expense of the College. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 23:3 121. Tliose arc Valla’s T.ogic, Aiiglade's Plnlosopliy, and Dr. Delaliogue’s Theology ? — Yes. 122. 'I’liose are tlie oidy books wliicli the students are rcipured to show that they have in their i)ossession ? — Those are the only individual hooks printed tor the College, which the autliorities take care that they must have. Dut there are otliers, as 1 stated before, which they must have, in conseciuence of their being necessary for learning the languages or sciences taught in the classes to which they belong. 123. In the study-hours, as distinguished from the class-hours, or prayer-hours, is the student permitted to read what he likes, or must he read something wliich is used in his course? — lie is obliged to apply himself to the subject of that year’s course, hut that is not expected rigidly. lie may read occasionally whatever useful books he pleases. 121. He may occasionally read any proper book? — Yes. 125. Would the answers of a student in mathematics or physics he taken into considera- tion as a matter of much importance, when he offered himself as a candidate for the Dun- bovne? — Yes, they would. All the distinctions which the student receives during his course arc enumerated on the occasion of electing candidates for the Dunboyne Establish- ment, particularly if there be more (pialified candidates than there are vacancies. These distinctions are all considered, but some are of less, and some of greater weight. 120. Do you consider that the fact of the professors of those sciences not being on the Council exercises any unfavourable influence ? — I think not. 127. It does not tend to depreciate that study? — 1 think it does not tend to depreciate that study, nor any of the others, wdiose professors have not that privilege ; for the Pro- fessor of liOgic, Metaphysics, and Ethics, or the professor of any other of the junior classes, is not a member of the Council. 128. And you are of opinion that it does not tend to depreciate the studies generally, which are not represented by professors on the Council ? — t think not. It does not more depreciate lower and earlier studies that they should rank after and not enjoy all the honours of other studies, higher and more sacred, than it depreciates juniors to rank after seniors, or a colonel that he is under a general, or a marquess that he is not a duke. 12 'J. The Professor of Mathematics, 1 presume, lectures in a certain order; he does not begin at conic sections and trigonometry, at the beginning of the term ? — No. 130. At wdiat time does he begin them generally ? — I should say that he begins trigono- metry about the first of November, and conic sections about the beginning of December. I know' he always takes those branches consecutively, in that order, and he always teaches both before Christmas. 131. llis class consists of about sixty, does it not? — Generally of more ; it varies be- tween sixty and ninety. 132. Do you think that the system would answ'er, of giving the students some option between the several courses, so that a man wdiose capacity Avas equal to them all might select, as between French and Greek and mathematics? — The custom is tliat the student is required to apply himself to each of these courses. 133. In succession? — -Yes; he cannot neglect one in order to attend exclusively to another ; and I think each of them deserves to be attended to, and, therefore, that no option should be alloAved of neglecting any of them. I think the present system of mark- ing out, definitely, the course for tlie education of these young ecclesiastics is much Aviser, than to allow each youth to grope his way in a choice of courses none of AA'liich he yet understands, or confidently to decide his choice according to some vision of inexperience, or impulse of caqirice ; and that the Bishops and Trustees and authorities of the College are much more competent to select the studies in wdiich a student’s time could be most profitably employed, than each young student would be himself. 134. You are probably aAvare of a suggestion that has been made by Professor Gillie, as to the mode of encouraging an increased study of the Greek language, namely, by making it comimlsory on a person, Avho is a candidate for the Dunboyne studentship, to have attended a course of Greek during his senior }'ear, AA'Ould that, in your opinion, be a useful system ? — I did not hear before that any such plan Avas ever conceived or suggested. At present there is a course of Greek under the first and second Professors of Greek and Latin classics, but there is none later than that in the Bhetoric Class, and unless some new provision and a professor for teaching Greek to students in their last year Avere instituted, such a qualification could not be required, as a conditioiifor the Dunboyne Establishment. Whether or not the course could be conveniently lengthened, so as to enable a student, preparing for the Dunboyne, to apply himself to Greek for another year after he had completed his course of theology, I think is very questionable. 135. The proposal of Professor Gillie AV'as, that additional lectures slioidd be given, and that such students as thought proper should attend them during four years, but that those students alone should be permitted to apply for the Dunboyne studentship ? — I see no objection to the object of such a change. I Avould think it even desirable, if at all practi- cable, that, Avithout increasing the number of j'ears wliich the course w'ould require, or damaging other studies of greater importance, means could be taken of keeping alive, and refreshing immediately before departure from College, the knowledge Avliich the students had acquired in the earlier part of their course. 13G. Do you think that it is some disadvantage that at present a student has no oppor- tunity of getting assistance in Greek during his last six years in the College ? — I cannot call it exactly a disadvantage. We cannot have every advantage together. Our stu- dents have as much assistance in Greek as in Latin ; besides all the assistance they had 2 h •iWh (Moher, JS.'i.'t. 19. t'ery liev. li F UoiH'liiin, ii.i)., rresiileiit. Books rc.ail (liirin" study liours. Qualifications for Dunboyne students; distinctions in all the classes taken into consideration. No depreciation of studies unrepre- sented on Council Order of mathe- matical lectures. Number in ela.ss. Suggestion of givins option of cboice between several courses. Disapproved of. Professor Gillie’s suggestion of making attendance in course of Greek during senior years neces- sary for Dunboyne. Desirable, if prac ticable. 234 MAYXOOTII COJDIISSIOK noth October, 1853. 19. Very Kev. Xi. F. Renehan, d.d., President. Proficiency of Dun- boyne students in Greek. Whether suffieient encouragement is given to keeping up knowledge of Greek, Indirect effect of study of Greek upon general tone of mind. Whether sufiicient attention to English literature. General reading of theological books in French and English. before they were qualified for admission to Maynootli, they have with us twice or rather five times as much assistance in Greek as in Hebrew, b’rench, or Irish — languages of scarcely less practical utility. But yet, I think it desirable, if a system could be devised that would not lengthen the course or encroach too much upon the time required for matters of greater necessity, that such an opportunity should be provided for the students, and, if provided at all, I would be of opinion that success in that department should be made an indispensable qualification for the Dunboyne. 137. Do j'ou conceive that all the Dunboyne students could now open a page of Greek, and without the aid of a Lexicon interpret it ? — I cannot say whether all the Dunbojme students could do so, but I think several of them could, particularly if the Greek were not very difficult, that is, if not of “ medice’ or “ wfnnnce, Gnecitatis." 188. For instance, a page of St. Chrysostom? — I could not undertake to say that they would understand ever^ word of it, but many of them could read it so as to understand what the}’’ were reading, though certain phrases might puzzle them ; but whether this would be true of them all I could not undertake to say ; I have had no opportunity of knowing. 13». Do you think that any of them are so ignorant that they would recoil from a Greek sentence and skij) it ? — I could not undertake to say that no one of them might not. But I think there is not even one of them who would skip the sentence unless a translation of the sentence immediately followed it. 140. Do you think that practically sufficient encouragement is given, as matters now stand, to keej) up their acquaintance with Greek through the theological course ? — As matters now stand, there is more time devoted before and after coming to Maynooth to acquiring and maintaining the knowledge of Greek than to the acquisition of many most important languages and sciences together. After so much attention justlj'^ paid to it in its proper season, I would not think it desirable to withdraw much of the time of the students from their subsequent and more important studies, in w’hich they never had before, and never will have again, any assistance, to the study of Greek, which, after all, however desii’able it may be as an accomplishment, is to the priest in this country, espe- cially in the rural districts, little more than an accomplishment. The young priest in Ireland has a gi’eat deal of laborious work before him. The College of Maynooth was instituted to educate him for the due performance of that work ; and I think it desirable that his attention should not be too much diverted from that knowledge which is essential to him for its proper performance, to a study which, after all, he can practically turn to but very little use further than as an accomplishment. There have been even, and there are many, •not churchmen, but seculars, and perhaps philosophists, who do not think it very essen- tial, and give it only a secondary ranlv even as an accomplishment in secular education. But I think it very useful for clergymen, particularly for studying deeply the Greek Tes- tament and the Greek Fathers, but not so indispensably important or essential as that I would wish a student, after applj’ing himself diligently to it in its own time, to withdraw from his other necessary studies the time that would be required for them. 141. In that answer have you taken into consideration the indirect effect of the study of Greek upon the general tone and temper of the mind, as entirely distinct from the advantages to be derived directly from a knowledge of the language itself? — I cannot say that I have ; but the student's improvement of mind, as an indirect effect from the study of Greek, it seems to me, would not be veiy considerable, unless he applied a gi’eat deal of time to the perusal of the Greek writers ; and the same effects would be as fully pro- duced, and with less risk to morals and other elements of education, by the perusal of the best works in Latin, English, French, or other modern languages. For, abstracting altogether from the objectionable licentiousness of some of the dramatists, and the doc- trinal absurdities of the poet theologians of Pagan Greece, their very orators and philo- sophers sometimes countenance vicious and unchristian morals, and there are many Christian writers in English and the modern languages, whose works, unmixed with vice or error, have a more truly refining, elevating, and ennobling influence on the reader’s mind than those of the Greek Pagan authors. So far, then, as the general effect upon the tone of mind is concerned, I am of opinion, it could be produced ivith greater secu- rity and at less expense by other means, which would not withdraw so much of the stu- dent’s time from other departments of his education. 142. Do you think that as much attention is paid to imbuing the minds of the .young ecclesiastics with the general literatui’e of their own language as would be desirable during their latter years ? — After students have passed through the English class, their study of English literature in the latter years of their course is left very much to their own discre- tion and sense of duty. They have moral discourses to deliver publicly, and English dissertations to write in the latter part also of their course, and from the style and cha- racter of these exercises, I think they usualh' must apply a good deal of time and atten- tion to English literatiu’e ; for, if they did not, we could not have such good siiecimens of sermons, and other religious instruction as we commonly hear delivered both in Col- lege, and by IMaynooth priests throughout the couuti’y. 143. Is there any security taken for the general readmg of books on theology in French and in English during the last few years of their theological education ? — There is no security taken for their reading either French or English books of theology. They ma)', or they may not, each day as they find more expedient. They are requii’ed to know the portion of theology which successivel.y comes to be the subject of the daily lectures, and they very commonly read those books which they imderstand to discuss that question MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 285 satisfactorily, whetlier they he Latin, French, or English ; but their other French and Eng- lish reading, whether theological or otherwise, is left entirely to themselves. There are, however, I think but few, if any of the students, who do not read books of French and English theology — at all events, if the word be not conhned exactly to scholastic theology, but used in its more general and comprehensive sense. Indeed, they all read a good deal on theological matters, whether commentaries on Scrii)ture, or sermons, or controvei’sy, or spiritual works of devotion, in the French and English languages, but more particularly in the French, as there are not so many works written in English to suit their wants, or ujion their views of theology. 141. Do they read the sermons of Bourdaloue, Massillon, Flechier, and Bossuet, com- monly ? — All those, and many other French preachers, besides very many other French writers on theological matters, are quite common among them. 145. Would “ Fleury’s Ecclesiastical History” be a book within their reach ? — They very frequently refer to and use it, but it is not used as a class-book. At present their class- book in Ecclesiastical History, or what approximates more than any other to the condi- tion of a class-book, is written in the French language — 1 mean a translation of Alzog. 140. As a set-off to the trouble of attending lectures in Greek, would not something be saved by the Dunboyne student being made a better Greek scholar, and being able to go through the references with less time and trouble ? — I think that saving would not be very sensibly felt, because every Dunboyne student already knows as much Greek as he practically re(piires for those purposes. 147. Would it be advantageous or otherwise, do you think, to the College and to the education of the students that the professors should iiublish more books than they do ? — It would be creditable to the College if books of high merit were imblished in greater numbers bj' its professors ; it would raise its reputation. 148. Would it be desirable to encourage the professors to wuite such works? — I think it would be desirable to give such encouragement. 149. Would it facilitate the studies of the young men, if in that manner, what they were required to know wars compressed and placed in a smaller number of books, and taught w'ith more authority, as modern doctrines suited to modern times ? — Several very eminent divines through Europe, and in our own College also, have already laboured with great diligence, and with different degrees of success, to condense into the smallest com- pass compatible with perspicuity and the necessary fulness, all the mere elements of theo- logy requisite for clerical education. But I think it would be also desirable for the stu- dents, that there were text-books and other works on moral theology which, disencum- bered of much reference to the civil law and peculiar customs and discipline of other countries, and applying to the moral duties of men to God and each other all the most modern Statutes of Church discipline and of our own civil legislature, w'ere accommodated exact!}" to the w'ants of the Irish ]>riest in his own country. Mere novelty, how'ever, rather detracts from, than adds to the authority of doctrinal opinions with Catholics, except in matters subject to -human laws. The more modern an opinion in doctrinal matters is, the less we are disposed to recognise it as the teaching of the Man-God. 150. Are you of opinion that the professors are comi)etent to publish such wnrks ? — Yes, I think they are. 151. Do you think it desirable that the professors should publish such works ? — I think it very desirable, more particularly if they w"ould succeed in producing better works than those that are already in the hands, or within the reach of the students. But as even the highest talents and learning do not ahvays succeed in producing the best elementary w’orks, and that excellence in such compositions requires quite a peculiar character of lucid pithy mmd, which there has been yet no opportunity of testing in the present Professors of Theology, the amount of service done the College by each professor could be more justly estimated after than before his w"ork had been published and maturely examined. 152. As President you w’ould rather encourage a professor wdio exi>ressed his intention of publishing a w"ork on the subject of his class ? — Yes, certainly. 158. Will you have the goodness to read the second article of the fifth chapter of the Statutes, as it runs in the English translation? — “ Let the course of theology for the year be arranged at a previous deliberation" by the President, Yice-President, Theological Pro- fessors, counsel being previously entered into, acU. the heads of sacred science to be explained, the authors to be used, tlie books to be consulted ; but if the professor shall, by his own industry, have compiled any portion of this course of instruction, w'e order that such shordd be submitted to the same council, and that a decision should be waited for.” 154. Is it con’ect to suppose that there is what may be termed a council of instruction, as distinguished from the council of discipline, consisting of the President, the Vice- President, and the Theological Professors ? — I do not know" of any council which, in my opmion, ought to be, or wdiich usually is, called a council of discipline. 155. What is the council of the President? — Their functions refer x^Ancipally to the election of candidates for the Dunbo}uie, the election of jirofessors, and other matters within wdiich the maintenance of discixiline, according to our use of the word, would not be included. 15G. Does not this passage appear to xioint out a different council? — The deans and Professor of Scripture are not mentioned as constituents of this committee or council, which is also totally unconnected with discipline, its sole function being to arrange before- hand the annual rotation, matter, and class-books of the theological course ; and if any theological professor should compile a treatise on any portion of his course, to judge of 2 /i 2 20i/i October, 1853. 19 . Very Kev. L. F. Uenelian, u.d., Fresideiit. Frencli preachers. Publication of books by professors. Expediency of en- couraging. Want of text-books in moral tlieology adapted to this country. Desirable that pro- fessors should l)ublisli such works. Arrangement of course of theology by President, Vice- President, and theo- logical professors. Provision of St atutcff President’s Council. Differs from Council referred to in above Statute. 23G MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. MlU Octohcr, 1853. 19. Very Kev. I>. Y. lieiichan, d.d., President. Treatises at present in use composed by jirol'essors, wliethcr a)>))roved of as re- quired by iStiitutes. I’rorision of Statutes as to arrangement of general courses of study, Now at an end. Witlidrawal of Bailly liy Trustees. No treatise yet adopted as a perma- nent substitute. No couneil lielJ to regulate course of studies, tlie course being permanent. As to consulting pro- fes.sors on adoption of text-books. I'rofessors recom- mended Scavini as a substitute for Bailly. its fitness to be adopted as a class-book. 'When this Statute was made, there were yet no printed class-hooks in Maynooth. 157. Is it the practice for the professors to compile treatises, and submit them to the council ? — 'When such treatises were composed, they were, I presume, submitted for the approval of the council before thej' were adopted as class-books. 158. Is it a fact that there are any treatises in use which have been so composed and submitted for approval to the council ? — There are five treatises which were so composed, and were adopted as class-books. I cannot, it is true, say of my own knowledge that these were submitted to the examination of this committee or council, of which I was not a member for some years afterwards. But besides the class-books still used on metaphysics and ethics, on geometry, trigonometry, electricity, and galvanism, which did not require the approbation here specified, there are five treatises on theology which were composed by one of the professors, and I presume, indeed I have no doubt, were considered and approved in this way before they were adopted as class-books by the council and by the Trustees. 159. The treatises of Dr. Delahogue on dogmatic tlieology were treatises of this kind ? — Y"es ; and I should suppose they were considered exactly in this waj\ 100. Are there any treatises of a similar kind upon moral theology ? — No. 101. Will you have the goodness to look at the fourth clause of that chapter. That article seems to consider a council consisting of the President and the whole body of the professors? — Y'es ; but not a standing council wdiich was to continue in the College and to meet from time to time for the occasional exercise of some function. It seems rather to contemjdate an assembly or aggregate meeting of all the officers of the College for one time only, and for the sole purpose of developing a general plan of studies for the then infant College, and drawing up cards or tablets, like a prospectus, showing what sciences were to be taught, and what books were adapted for learning them. This council or assembly died as soon as it had performed this one function ; it Avas not allowed to survive even to the extent of repealing or modifying its own act — that power was reserved to the Board of Trustees. 102. Are those tablets drawn up at present? — These tablets are not drawn up at present, nor was it intended that they should ; but the tablets adopted many years ago continue traced even on the memory and on the routine usage of half a century, according as the Statute directs that these tablets shall, “unless chairged by the Trustees, seiwe as received formularies.” 103. Is it the practice for the Trustees to interfere continuall}^ and change the order of iirstruetion ? — No, it is not. 104. They have iirterfered lately, have they not, and directed that Bailly shall bo discontinued as a text-book on moral theology ? — Yes, they have; but they made no change in the order of instruction. 105. At present no other treatise has been formally substituted for it? — None as a permanent substitute. 100. Is not the second provision of the Statute adopted, namely, “That at the beginning of every year a couneil is held, the lieads of sacred science explained, and the authors to be used, and the books to be consulted settled by the council ?” — I cannot say that it is settled by the council every year, and I doubt Avhether it be so prescribed in the Statute, “ I^et the annual course of theology (‘ annuam tractationem') be arranged at a previous deliberation but it is not said tliat this previous deliberation is to be renewed every year. The annual courses of theology have been arranged long ago, and are the same every year. 107. Is it not the fact that at the beginning of the academic 5Tar a council is held, and the provision of this Statute complied Avith ? — No coiincil is held, as a matter of course or duty, at the beginning of every year to regulate the course of studies in each class for that year. The course of studies is permanently prescribed, and is ahvays the same ; and Avere a council to assemble, it Avould be only to ordain that the long-established courses of theology be continued the same for the ensuing as they had been so many previous A’cars. But, in point of fact, a council is not assembled for that puiqAOse, unless some departure from the settled course aatit projected, nor is it believed to be prescribed by Statute. 108. Have the theological professors any voice in deciding Avhat authors should be used, and what books consulted at their lectures, or is that prescribed to them by some other authority ? — The text-books have been so long the same, and Avere selected so long before I became a student at Maynooth, that I really cannot say Avhat influence the professors of that day had in their selection. I remember to liaA'e heard that the class-books Avere selected entirely, or at least A^ery much, at the suggestions of the professors of that day ; and I think such would be the course at all times folloAved. ButAvhether the professors have a strict right that their opinions should be asked, or adopted, upon the matter, I have ne\'er considered. They, alone, direct their pupils as to tlie other books which they ought, or might, profitably consult. 109. Had the professors anj' A’oice in the introduction of a substitute for Bailly ? — They had no A'oice in the matter, so far as the discontinuance of Bailly is concerned, for their opinions were not exactly asked upon that point ; but they Avere requested, by the Trustees, to suggest what book could be substituted for Bailly, and they did suggest the “ Theologia Moralis” of Dr. Scavini, for the greater part of his course, Avhich is at present temporarily adopted. 170. Ai'e you of opinion that it Avould be advisable to have treatises on moral theology. I I 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 237 compiled expressly for the instruction of students at Maynooth, upon a plan similar to that upon which treatises liavo heen compiled on dogmatic theolog}’, under the general approval of the governing body ? — 1 tliink it desirable that there were such treatises. 171. Is it desii’ahle that the class-books, or house-hooks, upon tliose subjects, should bo such as to point out a definite course of teaching, such as is professed by the College itself, and such as might he referred to by young men who have heen students, when the}' go out into their missions? — 1 think it desirable that they should he such as might lie referi'ed to by the students, after they h'ave C'ollege ; hut I doubt very much the expediency, or even the practicability of setting forth the dcjhnte teaching and decisions, not merely of the author of a book, nor of one or more professors, but of all the professors, present and future, and of the Collegiate Corporation, on all the little minute details that must be dis- cussed in a treatise of moral theolog}’. Catholics do, and must, agree in all dogmas; they agree in nearly all matters of a dogmatic chai'acter, and in all the prinrijilcs of morals ; but in the common-sense application of these principles to the minutest details of men's duties in every-day life, such perfect unanimity cannot well be expected, much less enjoined. Hence it is tliat I doubt, even if practicable, the expediency of so minutely defining the course of teaching, because a certain latitude should be allowed to every professor ; and to chain him down to a certain decision, and no other, upon every possible case, or to exact a penalty for not teaching such, as if it were an offence, I think, would not be desirable. 172. On all great points of difference which do exist among the different schools of theology, where a ditt’erence of opinion is admitted, saira fuU\ would it be desirable that the general doctrine of the College of jMaynooth, as held and taught, should be defined by the course of books used and referred to, as in dogmatic theology at ])resent ? — The question, as I understand it, refers not to the decision of minute practical cases — for such are not the matters about which schools dispute — but to controvertible speculative opinions occurring in the treatises of moral theology. Now, I would tii’st remark, that the books used and referred to in Maynooth at present, do indicate generally what is taught on such contro- verted questions occurring in moral theology, pei'haps as closely as what is taught on similar questions in dogmatic theology. In both departments tliere are several such questions on which neither the books nor the professors give a very decided preference to one opinion above another, bat after discussing the arguments for each, leave the readers and the hearers to choose for themselves in both, the professor generally coincides in tlie opinion which the class-book prefers; but in both, also, the professor does not think himself obliged never at all to disagree with the class-books ; and, in ]ioint of fact, some professors do prefer, on a few such questions, opinions different from those in the class-books, and, it may be, from those held by other professors. The class-books then, in moral, as well as in dogmatic theolog}', do indicate, generally, but not, perhaps, without a few exceptions, the opinions on these controverted speculative questions, Avhich are preferred in IMaynooth. Such is the present condition of this matter at Maynooth ; I do not think it desirable that it should be altered. I see no reason why the College of Maynooth should assume to itself either to decide definitely Avhich is the oidy true opinion on all the questions controverted in other schools, and which the Church has left open for inquiry, and free to each of its children for the choice of that opinion which appears to him most credible ; or that liberty of sound opinion, in matters undefined by the Church, should be fettered more at May- nooth than anywhere else in the universe ; or that the IMaynooth professor, alone, should have no discretion, no liberty in choosing his own opinion in any one case out of the mass of questions on which all the rest of the human race, of every country and creed, enjoy the right, without restraint or control, to exercise their own judgments and liberty. Such a course, I know, Avas adopted by the UniA'ersity of Paris on one cpiestion, and by those of Sjiain on another ; but whether that example Avas commendable or not, it was very Avidely different, indeed, from a system Avhicli Avould similarly define eA'ery question A\uthin the Avhole range of free opinions, and entail censure or penalty on a professor if, in any case, he deviated from his class-book, a course Avhich I Avould deem uiiAvise, even though the class-book had been Avritten by a brother professor of the College, nay, eA'en by himself. 173. Then, Avhen text-books are referred to, which are taught in any college, they are in noAvise to be looked upon as an evidence of the opinions Avhich are conveyed Avithin that college, in moral theology ? — The text-books used by students in any college for learning moral theology, are not to be looked upon as decisive evidence that every opinion, AA'ithont any exception, advanced in these books, is taught by the professor, or held by the students. This much only can be fairly inferred, that the opinions of the class-book, f/cnerallp, are the opinions that are taught and prevail ; that opinions at Auriance with these, or of an opposite class and school, are generally impugned ; but that, possibly, on one or a very few freely controA^erted questions of some comprehensiveness, and in several little minute details, the professor may not concur in opinion with his class-book, as his predecessor or successor, teaching the same class-book, may not exactly agree Avithhim. The quantity of refection, for example, Avhichthe book may assign as the allowed collation on fast days, maybe thought by oue professor too much, and by another too little ; or they may not ex- actly agree — as frequently happens Avith j uries, arbitrators, and judges — whether a gh-en sum be the fair amount of compensation for some damage done to another, or Avhether it be not too much or too little to be required, in furo conftcienti(c, to be made by the repentant sinner. 174 . You are aAvare that there are points in Avhich the State feels considerable interest, and on which there is a difference of opinions among theologians ; is there no means of ascer- taining what is the doctrine upon those points, as taught within the College ? — These points refer, I think, XAriucipally, if not exclusively, to dogmatic theology ; and I knoAV no oxunion 20/ /t Oclohcr, IS.Vf. 19. Very Uev. L. F. Feiiehan, i).i>., I’resident. AVlicther desirable that clas.s-books should be prejiared einbodyiiijr definite course of teachiu!' of College, so as to serve for reference on mission. Impropriety of fettering opinion on questions left free by the Church. Amount of authority attached to text- books. Questions in uhich the State is inter- ested. 238 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION ZOUi Oilober, 1053. 19. Very Rev. L. F. lienelian, d.u., President. Moral tlieolosy does not admit of such a definite line of teach- ing as dogmatic. Liberty in (lucstions of casuistry. Jlode of proceeding if professor were an.\ious to publisli a treatise and liave it adopted as a class- book. Councils existing in the College., President's Council. Council of discipline. Councils of studies not now in action. about tvliicli the State takes any interest, in any one of the treatises of dogmatic theology, which is not uniformly taught at Maynooth. 175. Ai’e the Commissioners to understand that the subject-matter of moral theology does not admit of such a definite line of teaching as dogmatic theology, so that it would not be desirable, or quite possible, to have a course of treatises which should, as it were, mark out the line of teaching adopted at Maynooth, as in Dr. Delahogue’s treatises ? — To have it so minutely defined in every little detail, and in the decision of every case of con- science, would not, I think, be desirable, or, iierhaps, even practicable. 17(). In the science of casuistry, the professor is at present at liberty to treat many questions as speculative questions, precisely as other questions, without binding Maynooth to a particular view upon the subject ; but is not the i^rofessor bound to present, upon ant/ question, his free opinion, when it is one of faith, not restricted by the Catholic Church ? — Such is the custom ; the professor states his own free opinion, and maintains it by the best arguments he can command. But he does not, therebj", assume to bind Maynooth, nor does he propose his opinion as a view which others, even his pupils, are obliged to adopt, in those matters which are left still undefined, and on which every theologian is at liberty to take that opinion wliich seems to him the best warranted. 177. Are there not questions wliich are not decided as articles of faith, upon which it is open to the professor, and his duty to express a very decided opinion as to what is right and what is wrong ? — There are decidedly several such questions ; but I understood the former interrogatories to ask, not whether there were some such questions or many, but whether it would be expedient that every question in moral theology should be so defined. 178. If a iirofessor were anxious to compile a treatise upon any division of the course of moral theology — as for instance a treatise De Matrimo?>io, or a treatise De Lc(/ihus — in what way would he proceed to submit it to the Council, as pointed out in the Statute, or to what body would he submit his proposal, or his treatise ? — A professor does not require the approval of any college authority for merely compiling and publishing such a treatise; but if he wished his book to be adojited as a class-book, he should submit it to the Coun- cil, and obtain their permission ; for that purpose he would notify his desire to the Presi- dent, who would then convoke a meeting of that particular Council, submit the proposal and the book to their consideration, and conjointly with them take such steps as might seem expedient for deciding fairly, whether its adoi)tion as a class-book should be sanc- tioned. As such a change of class-books could never be urgently requisite before the next ensuing meeting of the Board of Trustees, the professor most probabl}" would submit his proposal for their approbation, and the Council, too, would probably not wish to make such a change without theii’ sanction. 179. How do }’ou, as President, interpret these words of the Statute, “a decision should be waited for is that a decision of the Council, or a decision of the Board of Trustees ? — A decision of the Council. 180. MTiat Councils do jmu consider to exist in the College; how are they composed, and what are their functions ? — There exists in the College, the President’s Council, com- posed of the Vice-President, Deans, and Professors of Theology, including the Prefect of the Dunbojme, for discharging the ordinary perpetually recurring functions prescribed to it by the Statutes. The Statutes also prescribe, in the fifth chapter, second section, a council cr meeting of nearly the same officers, but not entirely so comprehensive as the former, whose almost onlj^ function is or was to arrange what should be the regular yearly rotation of subjects and authors, in the study of theology; and there are moreover deliber- ative meetings held by the President, ATce-President, and Deans, which are familiarly called Councils, though they are not so called in the Statutes. 181. Is the Council to which you refer, the Council alluded to in the fifth clause of the seventh chajjter in these words, “ The appointment of the Senior Students are consigned to the President, and to his Council, to the Vice-President, Deans, Professors of Theology, and of Sacred Scripture ? — V^es ; biit the Statutes, cai"). v. sec. 2, contemplate also another Council for the one particular object already siiecified ; and a meeting of the President, Vice-President, and Deans, is sometimes called familiarly a Council, though it is not so called in the Statutes. The object of this last assembly is to look after the disciphue of the house, the selection of the candidates for Holy Orders, and such other matters as are deemed necessary or conducive to the general administration and welTbeing of the estab- lishment. 182. Would it be correct to regard that body, consisting of the President, the Vice- I'resident, and the Deans, as a Council of discipline ? — It would be quite correct so to regard it, for it is entii’ely a Council of disciidine, but it is not designated a Comicil of dis- ci])line, nor in anj' other Avay entitled a Council by the Statutes. 1 83. Then there is a Council for theological instruction — a Council apparently of general instruction, and then what may be termed the President’s Council, which is the gxeat Board of Administration in the College ? — It possibly may pi’esent the matter more clearly to saj", that there are two standing, ordinary, deliberative bodies in the College, each of which is often called a Council, namely, that which the Statutes call the President s Council, and another which, though not explicitly entitled a Council in the Statutes, yet is in fact a Council of discipline. Besides these two, which frequently assemble and have their ordinary annual functions to discharge, the Statutes contemplate two other Councils, each for one particular object only, and this object having been permanentlj' arranged manj’’ years ago, one of these Councils may now be considered as totally defunct, the other has no occasion to meet ordinarily, nor indeed unless when it maj' be proposed to abandon or modify its previously established arrangements. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2(59 184. In fact the President’s Council is the only standing Council ? — Yes, of those pro- perly called Councils ; the Council of discipline is constantly in action, but it is not expli- citly mentioned as a Cuimcil in the Statutes. 185. Is the Professor of Ecclesiastical History a meinher of the President’s Council? —No. 18(5. But he lectures the class out of which the Dunhoyne students are selected, does he not ? — He does, once in the week. 187. And therefore he would have some knowledge of the competency of the candi- dates ? — Yes ; observing the progress they have made at his lectures, and the attention they have paid in his class, lie could judge of their competency in his department. 188. Do not you think that it might be advisable, looking to the importance of his pro- fessorship, although he is not at present by name, included in the Council, that he should have a voice in that Council, seeing that the Junior Deans have come into the Council? — The Professor of History is not included in the Council by the Statutes, either by name or otherwise, explicitly, or implicitly ; the Junior Deans have not come into the Council lately, but have been members of it nearly forty years, since the first institution of their office ; and I would not think it advisable to alter the Statutes, in respect to either the one or the others. The Junior Deans have much more knowledge of the students, as to the gi’eater amount of their qualifications for appointment to the Dunhoyne, than the Professor of History can naturally be expected to have. A candidate for the Dunhoyne should be (hstinguished for his knowledge, not only of ecclesiastical history, hut also of Sacred Scripture, theology, science, &c. ; and he should also be highly distinguished for good con- duct and piety, “ since they ought,” say the Statutes, ‘'to excel the other students, not only in knowledge and intellectual endowments, but likewise in the purity of their life and morals.” ’'(\hth regard to the latter important head of qualification, the deans have far better oppor- tunities of forming a correct estimate of the relative merits of the candidates than any of the professors ; they have had charge of their morals, and progress in virtue, not partially for one year as each of the professors, but throughout their entire collegiate course ; while all the members of the Council have nearly the same opportunity of judging of the rela- tive talents and proficiency of the candidates in aU their departments of study, from the official reports of the several professors under whom they studied each year, and from the register of the position they occupied each year at the public distribution of academic prizes and honors. The junior deans have been generally not inferior to the professors in abilities and prudent discrimination; they have peculiar opportunities of judging of the relative industry of the candidates, them dispositions, and their zeal to turn their college advantages to a good account ; they have vastly better opportunities of estimating their characters and relative virtues than any of the professors ; and the Professor of History, at all events, who lectures his advanced class but once in the week, and seldom or never inter- rogates them on their px’oficency, has not as many opportunities of judging of their qualifi- cations for the Dunhoyne Establishment as the Junior Deans have. 189. Is there any coiicimsus for the Dunhoyne Studentship, or any examination ? — x\ll the examinations, and other tests of learning throughout their course, are the standard by which their relative literaiy qualifications are judged. 190. But is there any direct examination by means of which the Prefect of the Dunbo 3 ’ne Establishment would be acquainted with the relative capacity of the students who become canditlates ? — No ; the public examinations which all are required to attend, the official reports of the several professors under whom they read, the register of the premiums or honorary distinctions the candidates had obtained in all or the principal classes throughout their course, are the only test by which not only the President, Vice-President, Deans, and Prefect of the Dunhoyne, but also the Elector Professors judge of their relative capacity. F or, though each of the Professors of Theology, who are electors, has personal observation of the talents and proficiency of those who become candidates for the Dunboyne during the one year the^mttend his lectures, jmt such personal ohseiwation is confined to that one jmar alone, while it is by the greater success and higher merits during the greater number of years the preference should be decided. The other professors have not the same opportunities of judging of their theological capabilities as the professors who have taught them theology and Scripture. The Professor of History, for instance, though lecturing them on subjects somewhat connected with theology, yet the studies in his class are not conducted in the same way as in theology, and the talents requisite for the one do not necessarily imply the talents that are requisite for the other. Moreover, during the three years before their election to the Dunboyne, the Professor of History has lectured these candidates but once a week, and after three years of such interruption his recollection regarding their qualifications is not altogether so fresh, at least he has not had as good opportunities of judging of their fitness as the professor who has lectured them more recently nine times in the week, and on the principal matters which are to form their studies on the Dunboxme Establishment. But the premiums gained in ecclesiastical history have theii’ full weight in the selection for a Dunboyne Studentship. 191. Will you have the goodness to turn to the third clause of the fifth chapter : “ Let the Professor of Dogmatic Theologv' strenuously exert himself to impress on liis class, that the allegiance which they owe to the Ptoyal Majesty cannot be relaxed or annulled bj' any power or authority whatsoever.” What is the interpretation given to the expression, “Professor of Dogmatic Theology,” under the present arrangement? — There is no professor now whose title is Professor of Dogmatic Theology, but all the professors of 20//I Oaoher, 1P&.1. 19. Very Kev. L. F. Koneliaii, u.d , I’resicknt. Whether Professor of Ecclesiastical History should not liaTc a scat in the Council. No direct concursus for Dunl)oyne students. All professors of theology bound hy tliird clause of fifth chapter of the Statutes. 240 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. ^0//i October, 1853. Very Eev. L. F. Iveiielian, d.d., 3’resident. Whether obser- viinee of tliat Sta- tute inquired into at vibitations. I’romise by ])rofes- sors to obey the laws. Extern appointed pro.essor takes oath of allegiauce, and sig-ns declaration at end of Statutes. At what time doc- trine mentioned in al)ove Statute is inculcated. Positive duty to do so. Dr. Dolahogue’s proposition in- variably maintained. theology teach both dogmatic and moral theology, tmd, therefore, I conceive that all the professors of theology are bound by that Statute. 192. Tn ■\vhiit way is security taken that this provision of the Statute is carefully com- plied with ? — The same means are tiiken for securing the observance of that provision of the Statutes as for enforcing their otlier provisions of great inn)ortance. If the Statute were not observed, its violation would soon become known, and would not be tolerated. ii)3. Have the Visitors hitherto made any iiiquiiy as to whether that Statute has been complied with in the College ? — I do not recollect that they have iiujuired whether that clause of the Statutes has been in any instance violated or not, but they have always impiired whether the oath of allegiance had been taken. 194. Is not the professor required to sign a promise that he will obey the laws of which this is one ? — Tlie professor is required to sign a iiromise to that effect, and I have never heard of any professor violating his i)romise with regard to this Statute. 195. Does the professor sign any book when he is appointed professor? — Yes, if he had not signed it before his appointment; but if he had, it is not usually re])eated after apimintment, because the former ])ledge is held to be equally binding as a new one ; and the form and terms of the promise in cither case are exiictly the same. 19(). Suppose an extern to be elected professor or dean, does he necessarily take the oath of allegiance'? — He is bound to take the oath of allegiance, and I have not known any extern appointed in IMaynooth who did not take it. 197. And he also would be bound to sign the register, in which he makes the declaration contained at the end of the Statutes, namely, a declaration that he will not belong to any secret society, and that he will obey the Statutes? — Yes; while I have held any office in the College, all the externs ajipointed to offices in Maynooth took the oath of allegiance, and, 1 have no doubt, also signed that declaration ; one of them is still in the College, the Senior Dean. 198. In what part of the instructions, in Dogmatic Theology, would it come within the province of the professor to inculcate, especially this principle, “ that the allegiance which they owe to the royal majesty cannot be relaxed or annulled bv any power or authority whatsoever?” — It would naturally come into the treatise “ De Ecclesia,” which formally establishes the divine origin of royal, or other supreme civil power, and at con- siderable length zealously inculcates the principle quoted from the Statutes, that their sub- jects can never be released, by authority of the keys of the Church, from their sworn duty and allegiance. The professor could also introduce the subject, wlien teaching the treatise "on IjUws,” or the volume “on lleligion” where it treats of the natural law, and elsewhere incidentally. But it recurs again formally in the treatise “ on the Decalogue” under the fourth commandment, and again in the treatise “ De Obligationibus Statuum” under the head of the duties of subjects. Each of the Professors of Theology, in the ))resent anamgement, teaches all these treatises. The Professor of Sacj-ed Scripture, too, (I speak from a recollection of my own practice), though not included in the terms of this Statute, does not fail, when teaching St. Matt., c. xxiii.. Bom., c. xiii., 1 Peter, c. ii., and other passages bearing on this subject, to inculcate the duties of loyalty to the throne, and obedience to the laws and constituted authorities of the state. 499. As far as you are acquainted with the professors in yoiir College at present, is it known to you that they inter])ret this article or clause of the Statutes as imposing any positive duty upon them of inculcating this doctrine ? — I cannot say that I have heard the question ever raised. I should think, however, that no doubt has been entertained upon the matter — that it is a positive duty. 200. Not to omit to lecture upon that subject ? — Not to omit to notice it, and, as the Statute directs, to inculcate the obligation of inviolable allegiance. But the professors do, I presume, feel it a matter quite of discretion in what treatise or under what head they introduce it. 201. Not merely to abstain fi’om raising an}" contrary doctrine, but to inculcate it. as a j)Ositive duty ? — I am confident that no doubt upon that has ever been entertained. 202. You have no doubt that that is the general ju-actice ? — I have never known a doubt entert.ained that it was the duty and the practice of the professors to inculcate the religious obligation of allegiance to the state. 203. That it was not only his duty not to inculcate a contrary doctrine, but to inculcate it jmsitively as a necessary part of his teaching? — I cannot say a necessary part of his lectures on one treatise, or on one occasion, rather than another. But I am under the decided conviction, and I have never known any doubt entertained by others, that it was a matter of duty on the part of the Professors of Theology, to take occasion, from some question occuiTing in the matter they were teaching, or otherwise in their public lectures, positively and zealously to inculcate the obligation of allegiance. 204. AVhen you use the ternis “ cannot be released by any authority,” did you impl}' as well that no sanction could release from the binding character of the oath of allegiance, as well as no actual jurisdiction ? — I think there can be no legitimate sanction given to a violation of the oath of allegiance. 205. And further, that if any attempt were made to do so, it would be the duty of a good subject, although a Boman Cathohe, not to obey? — I have never heard a Boman Catholic doubt that conclusion. 206. As far as you are acquainted with the professors, and all the other officers of the College, have you found that the doctrine contained in Dr. Delahogue’s treatise, De MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 241 Ecclesia, lias been invariably maintained by them ? — Invariably, so far as relates to alle- 20 /A October isna. gianee and the present snliject. I have m^t known anj" exception. 207. Will 3 'ou also have the goodness to state whether have any reason to apprehend that a contrary principle, or a principle in any degree cojitlicting with that iiropounded by ^ ^ a 1 Dr. Delahogne in this treatise is entertained by any of the students at iMaynooth ? — I have rresiilent. ' no reason whatever to apprehend that a contrary notion is entertained by aii}' student at Maynooth. 20 s. Have you anv reason to believe that the increased parliamentary grant, by Improvements in providing increased allowances to the students, has tended to ^iromote a higher state of college since refinement, and has improved the general tone of conduct amongst the students of “^creased grant. 3Ia}'nooth ? — These ellects have been alread}' realised, and are annually becoming more observable. I would add, that the better condition in which the College is kept, the improvement that has taken place in its buildings, accommodation, and materiel altogether, have had a very beneticial inlluence on the notions and taste, and must, at all times, tend to raise the tone of feeling and habits of the students. 209. Does it also enable them to purchase books, and supply themselves better with the means of education? — It enables them, in the latter years of their course, to buy books, without depending on the aid of their parents or guardians, and also to supply themselves with several little personal conveniences, which must have a useful tendencj" in forming the habits of youth. 210. Was the former condition of Maynooth such as to lead to injurious consequences, in some respects ? — I slwuld say so. 211. Was it such as rather to lower the general demeanour and the tone of manner in Tendency of former the students ? — It had such a tendency. When the objects of sense which surrounded to'lower” one of^ the students were of a low description ; the buildings of the College nmvorthy their maiuier amom>- tlie destination; without character; furnished, repaired, and kept but inditterently ; when students. there was nothing external to elevate the mind, it could not be expected that the studenis would have derived as much improvement in their feelings and general education as when things are in a better condition. 212. Do you consider the improvement to be peculiarly important, considering that man}’’ of those }"oung men come from a condition in which they have not been much accustomed to the refinements of life ? — I think it important on that account also ; and though the general depression of all classes in Ireland, during the last few years, retarded the full development of these improvements, A’et it was foi'tunate that the munificent liberalit}' of the Legislature had anticipated this visitation, as otherwise, considering the effects of famine pestilence and emigration in raising the poor rates, wages, and the price of food, neither the finances of the College, nor the domestic supplies for the becoming expenses of the students could have been maintained, even at their ordinary level, without more than usual difficulty. 213. In fact, the circumstances of the country have somewhat tended to diminish the effect of the grant, as the students have not had means to keep pace with it ? — Yes ; the peculiar circumstances of these latter years tended to counteract the immediate influence of the enlarged endowment on the habits and feelings of the students. But, under another point of view, these circumstances enhanced the value of the grant, at that time, as it was then more than ordinarilj" required and opportune. 214. Do you recollect the circumstance of an entertainment or feast being given in the year 1836, on the occasion of Lord Mulgrave, the then Lord Lieutenant, paying a visit to Maynooth ? — I recollect there was an entertainment on that occasion. 215. Were you then Vice-President ? — I was. 216. W^ill you just state what the circumstances were under which the feast was given ? — The Earl of Mulgrave, then Lord Lieutenant, honoured the College with a visit, the first from a Vicero}" for thirty-eight j^ears ; and the College highlj' appreciating the honour, the President entertained the students with wine to commemorate the occasion, and to testily his feelings of loyalty to the throne, of gratitude and respect to the representative of Majesty. 217. Do you remember toasts being proposed on the occasion ? — I remember to have been told that the healths of the President, and of as many of the superiors and professors as were present, were successively proiiosed as toasts. I do not recollect to have heard whether anj’ other toasts were proposed after they had retired ; but I do not, and could not, remember having myself heard or witnessed any thing that occurred in the hall that night, for I was not there. I do, on the contrary, remember that some of the professors and I, thinking it better that only some of the officers of the College -would go to the refectory on that occasion, had previously resolved not to go there ourselves. I remember the pain I felt the day before at finding it difficult to satisfy a deputation from the students, who came to invite my attendance, of the sufficienev^ of m 3 " reasons for not going, and at feeling it my dut 3 " to decline the invitation. I rejnember pretty dislinctl 3 " how I -was occupied on duty elsewhere during a great part of the time that the President and pro- fessors were in the hall, and very distinctly that I had occasion to pass more than once outside the hall during the proceedings. I remember these circumstances the better, because I have seen, for several 3 "ears past, in certain public journals, reports of speeches delivered at Exeter Hall, Dublin, and other places, in which the speaker, for it -was always the same person, ascribed to me, then Vice-President, the use of violent language in pro- posing a toast on that occasion. Though I never thought it necessary to contradict the slander, its republication from time to time kept the facts of that case fresher in my 2 i Importance of im- provement. Feast on Lord Miilgrave’s visit in 183 (). Circumstances under wliicli feast was given. Dr. Kenelian was not present ; remembers liaving been engaged elsewhere. 20th October, 1853, 19 . Very Kev. L. F. lieiielian, d.u, Fresicleiit. If lie had sung on that occasion lie could not forget it Origin of the feast. Usual duration of such feasts. Speech made by a student named O'Sullivan, who afterwards left the College. 242 MAYXOOTI-I COMMISSION. memoiy. But independent!)' of sucli aid, it -was altogetlier sucli a matter as I could not forget. Several of those tvho were that night in the refectory adverted to my absence, and still remember that I was not there. The night scene which so large a hall would present on such an occasion, at seven o’clock on a December evening, is so strikingly peculiar, and it was so unusual in Maynooth, for several years before, for me or the other College officers to witness it, that had I witnessed it with its circumstances, the lapse of seventeen years could not, I think, efface its recollection from my memory. At all events, I do not recollect having witnessed a particle of what occurred in the refectory that night. 218. Perhaps an incident may awaken your memory upon the subject. Have you any recollection of having sung a song upon that occasion ? — No ; but if I had siiug on so public an occasion, I could not forget it. AVhen formerly the i)rofessors visited the refectory on such festivities, they were wont to gratify the students bj' joining in their amusement, so far as, when invited, either to sing a song, or to compensate for not singing by some short address. I remember very well having been myself pressed to sing at a somewhat similar entertainment in the College, though the scene was less public, exciting, and impressive, on the occasion of Dr. INIontague’s appointment as President, and my appointment as Vice-President. It was by daylight in July, when most of the students had left College on vacation. Dr. Montague wished to compliment the few that still re- mained, by some little entertainment; and to enhance the favour, wished to visit them during their enjoyment. lie asked me, and I know not whether any bod)' else, to accompany him. We went to the refectory for a few minutes. He briefly addressed the students, in acknow- ledgment of their congratulations and cheers. I was pressed, ^^.as the saying is, either to make a speech or sing a song ; I would have sung if I were able ; I attempted, how- ever, a song, but being embarrassed, and not well, I was not able to proceed beyond the middle of the first verse on the key on which I happened to begin, and I there rehiiquished the attempt. 219. You recollect that song? — Yes. 220. You were appointed Vice-President on the 27th of June, 1834? — Yes. 221. It has been stated, that on the occasion of the liOrd Lieutenant’s visit, when a feast was given, you sung a song ; does that awaken your memory at all as to whether you were there, or have you any recollection of having on such an occasion sung a song ? — I never sang a song at all in the refectory, and never made any attempt to do so, except on the one occasion wheir I attempted to sing, and gave it up in desirair. But I feel perfectly confident that I did not attempt to sing, or even attend in the refectory on the occasion of the Lord Lieutenant’s visit. 222. Did the feast in question originate entirely with the President and the authorities of the College ? — It originated entirely with the President. 223. Was the wine furnished from the College, at the expense of the President ? — Yes. 224. Aird the President was j)reseirt ? — Y^es ; but only for a short time, and with the view I have stated. 225. But when Lord Mulgrave was there, was that an entertainment given by the Pre- sident ? — YYs, by his authority ; I am not, however, at this distance of time, able positively to say, but I believe it was not at his private expense. 22G. But it emanated from the authorities of the College ? — Yes. 227. He, probably, was present ?- — Pie was present for some time. 228. Would he preside on such an occasion as that ? — No ; he would rather, and, in point of fact, did, I believe, go to the hall only about the end of the feast, when the students usually amuse themselves by songs, to pass away the time, and prolong the fes- tivity. It is while the students are so engaged in these amusements that the President and professors sometimes, though rarely, join them, remain a little while, countenance their enjoyments, cultivate good feelings, and retire. 229. Can you state when that feast began, and when it terminated ? — I could not undertake to state quite precisely the hours. 230. What was the usual time ? — Such feasts usually begin about five o’clock, and this, like all that I remember, must have terminated, I presume, before six, as relates to refresh- ments, and between seven and eight o’clock as regards the subsequent amusements. 231. AVhy do you presume that? — Because such has been, as well as I remember, the unvarying custom ; and for this additional reason, among others, that, being then Vice- President, I repeatedly visited that evening, as I distmctly I’emember, every part of the College, looking after the maintenance of discipline and collegiate order. The bell rings at eight o’clock to summon the students to attend a religious exercise, after which they pro- ceed to supper ; and the refectory could not have been prepared for supper, and the religious exercise could not have been attended, if the amusements continued beyond that hour. I thmk such a departure from order would make an impression on my memory, and I would remember it if either of these duties had been thus publicly neglected. 232. Did you hear at the time whether Mr. O'Connell’s health was proposed or not ? — I do not remember ; but I have since heard some say that Mr. O’Connell’s health was pro- posed, and others say, that the health of Mr. O’Connell, or any other person but the lYesident and the professors who accompanied him to the hall, was not proposed, at least while they were present ; and that it was only in reply to the toast of his own health that any of them spoke. After their depai’ture, however, a young man, who did not intend to continue in IMaynooth, took upon himself to address his tellow-students, at very great length, on topics connected with the College ; but whether or not he introdciced any others, I could not, at this distance of time, undertake to say. Lie was a young man who was not jMlNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 213 considered a desirable subject for the sacred ministry, and who retired from College shortly '■Mih October, after this transaction. 233. Did lie make a violent speech upon that occasion ? — I did not hear him, and I cannot speak of what he said from personal recollection ; but I am under the imnression r that it was ratlier desultory ami wild tiian violent. President, 231. "Was the young man, to whom you allude, named Ilawkes? — Ilis name was O’Sullivan. 235. Do you recollect a student of the name of Ilawkes being in the College ? — I do. Case of ilawkes. 23(i. Was he, at any time while in the College, arrested for sedition ?— I am coniident that he was not, since I first knew him or took any special care of his concerns. But I remember to have heard, while I was Professor of Scriptures, that a junior student, named Ilawkes, had been some weeks or montlis before made amenable for having been present, before he entered Maynooth, at a meeting held near Cork to petition Parliament for relief from tithes, such meetings having been then recently prohibited by the Lord Lieutenant. But I do not recollect to have then heard whether or not he -was formally arrested, nor can I say whether such an offence, the only one laid to his charge, would or would not be, even technically, denominated sedition. 237. Was he not bailed ? — I should suppose so; but I cannot say I remember now what the details of the proceedings were — pi'obably I never knew them very minutely. 238. First there must have been informations taken, and on those informations he must have been arrested, or have given bail ; did that occur within your recollection ? — I recollect to have been told that he gave bail to present himself for trial, but I do not remem- ber whether he was arrested or not. Not knowing the young man, nor witnessing any part of the transaction, nor hearing of it till a good while afterwards, its details have not remained on my memory, and I only recollect that he was charged with having been at a tithe meeting before he came to College, that he presented himself for trial, and that the Crown abandoned the prosecution. Nothing had been known at Maynooth about this young man or his legal difficulties for some time after he had become a member of the College, else probably the President of that day would not have received him. 239. Has IMr. O’Sullivan entered the priesthood since ? — No ; at least as far as I have known or heard. 240. Do you know what has become of him since ? — I do not know ; I think he w^ent to O’Sullivan gone to America, and applied his versatile powers to various modes of earning a livelihood. He had -^^enca, a great fluency of speech, and he indulged it too freely. 241. Was he required to withdraw from the College by the authorities? — I think not formally required to go away ; and if I recollect rightly, he remained in College so very short a time after this transaction, as to leave neither occasion nor time to effect his with- drawal by the process prescribed in the Statutes. It was perfectly well understood that he would never be recommended to Holy Orders by the College authorities, and that they would soon take means to effect his removal. 242. At that time were many violent speeches delivered by the students, or a keen Public e.xcitemeiit interest taken in public affairs, and speeches delivered in the courts of the College ? — The NQ^poHtical s^^^ public mind was then in such a fever about public affairs that its influence was felt also to permitted to be some extent in the College ; but there w'ere no violent speeches delivered by the students, urchase unless he has In’otight one with him. 249. How long has that custom existed? — As well as I remember, since 1821 or 1822, but I cannot be very contident as to the exact year. 250. AVhose duty is it precisely to inquire into that matter, and to provide for it ? — The Bursar provides as manj" Bibles as the young men enteriiig each year will require, and on their admission, he supplies each with a copj", 251. Does he inquire of the students wdiether they have a Bible, and if not, does he provide them personally with one ? — Yes ; but not in that order. He first gives them a Bible, but if they satisfy him that they have got one already, he does not require them to take another. 252. They are obliged to pay for the one they receive from him, are they not ? — Yes. 253. But he, upon his first interview with them, asks them the (question, and offers them a Bible ? — He first supplies the Bible, and charges the price to the student’s account; but if he can satisfy the Bursar that he already has a Bible, he is not required to take the Bursar’s, and the account is readjusted accordingly. \_Thc Witness withdrew^ 24t/( October, 1853. Very Kev. Gaffney, d.d. Duties of the deans — arr.angemeiit as to visiting the students rooms. Practicability of jdacing a certain number of the students under tlie special charge of eaeli dean. Further division of the College necessary and for that purpose most desirable. Practicability of effecting further division. Monday, 24tii October, 1853. The Very Rev. Miletius Gaffney, d.d., examined. 1 . In one of your wu'itten ansivers you speak of each of the deans as individually charged with the discipline of a certain portion of the College. Is that otherwise than in visiting the rooms of the students? — My written answer in Paper E has reference solely to the visit of the rooms. 2. There is no definite number of students who are considered as distinctly under the charge of each dean? — No, except in the way I have mentioned. Each of the deans visits a certain number of rooms ; in every other respect ive are all, collectively and indivi- dually, charged ivitli the general discipline of the whole College. 3. Do you consider those students in the sets of rooms under the special charge of each dean as specially under your charge in every other respect ? — Certainly. 4. As having a special tie to you, besides thiit arising from visiting their rooms ? — Yes. AYe agree among ourselves about the numher of rooms which each of us will visit. Each dean will take, say 120 rooms under his care. This arrangement is quite necessary, on account of the extent of the establishment, as no one person could visit all the rooms of the College in the time fixed by the Statutes. 5. Those -whose rooms they visit are not under their charge specially for other purposes, are they? — No, they are not. 6. AYould it be practicable that those students whose rooms are under the sjiecial charge of the deans should also, in other respects, have a special relation to those deans? — It would not answer in the present system, because all those students assemble in the same halls, the same refectory, the same hall for prayer, and the same chapel. They come together from the different parts of the house, with which all the members of the admi- nistration are, collectively and individually, charged. 7. Do you think that there Avould be any disadvantage in students so placed feeling that they had a special right to recur to those deans in a friendly way, or as advisers to them ? — No, I do not think that any disadvantage could arise from such a state of things, if it were practicable. 8. You do not think it advisable, if such a relation could be established? — I think it would be very advisable, if it were practicable. You should divide the community to effect this change. AYhen the increase of the grant was given to Maynooth I spoke to several of the Trustees, the bishops, on the importance of dividing the community. I thought it w'ould be advisable to erect the ne-w buildings at the extreme end of the recreation grounds. AYe would there have had a separate community, another in the old senior house, and another in the junior house. The number in the senior house is much too large. A division of the College into three or four separate communities is most desirable. The ends for which the College was established would be eff'ectually promoted by such an arrangement. 9. Do you think that you could subdivide with advantage as the buildings now are? — It would be difficult; 1 do not think it impossible. Some new buildings would be required, and a larger stall' of superiors for the management of the College. If we had the house divided into three parts, the junior house as it is, witli some addition to the buildings, and the senior house divided into two equal parts, we would require a refectory and a chapel for the new division. The present refectory, the present prayer-hall, and the present chapel would answer for the students of the old senior house ; a chapel and a refectory -u-ould be necessary for those who -would live in the new buildings. This arrange- ment could be effected without great expense. 10. Could not the old refectory be used for that purpose? — I mentioned in my written MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 245 .inswors tliat tlio chapel for the juniory was entirely too small. It is a room fitted up for a chapel, ami the refectory of tlie junior students is a room wliich was fitted up for the ])urpose. Now, by the removal of the senior students to tlio new refectory the old refec- tory is vacated ; it is not used for any puri)ose. Fifty of the junior students live in doul)led)edded rooms. It is necessary, in order to make the junior house, I will not say commodious, l)ut merely comfortable, to ])rolong one of the wings of tlie house about twenty feet. Then the refectory, which is at the end of that wing, could be lengthened, and over it you would have a single room for each student. Then there could be a covered ])assage into the old kitchen, wliich has been vacated. It is a very spacious room, and it would answer well fora prayer and lecture-hall. Near this former kitchen is the old refec- tory, which miglit bo changed into a chapel for the juniors; and tlieu you have, for the juniors, a good chajiel, a good refectory, and a good jirayer-hall. You have, for the seniors, living in the old senior house, the chapel which the C^ommissioners saw'. Then there w’ould be another prayer-hall and another chajiel required if wo were to divide the senior house into two communities. We should also have an additional ])lay-ground, and a wall built to separate one portion of the senior students from the other. Wo have several fields lying to the west of the present recreation gTounds, which could be used for that iiurpose. 1 think such divisions very desirable for the discipline of the College, and Avell calculated to improve the manners of many Avho, in a vast crowd of people, Avill never be improved in their habits and manners. 1 1. In the meantime, w'hile the arrangements are making, would it not be dosiral)le to effect a partial separation, say in the play-ground, which could be accom])lished at once ? — It w'ould not be easy to effect this partial separation. The students generally w\alk Avith their own tliocesans : all assemble after dinner, and three or four of the same diocese take their recreation together. It might be desirable that students from dilferent parts of the country Avould occasionally AA'alk together after dinner, as such intercourse Avould tend to improve the manners and the accent of many ; but as long as 380 students come out together from the same refectory, this intercouse Avill not take place. 12. You do not think that the habit of exclusively associating Avith persons of the same diocese at such times is necessary or even desirable ? — It is not necessary, perhaps not desirable ; I give my opinion, hoAvever, on this subject Avith some hesitation, as I knoAV persons Avho entertain a contrary opinion. 13. You think that a mixing of them together w’ould be adA'antageous ? — Yes, I'think so ; but, as I have already stated, as long as the senior house remains as it noAV is, such associations cannot become practicable. The number of students in the senior house of our College is greater than that of any other Catholic seminary in the Avorld. 14. Does it occur to you that a desirable division might be made in the Avay I Avill point out, namely, that the logicians and the physicians should constitute one school or one division, that those beloAV them, Avho are juniors, should constitute another, and that the tlieologians should constitute cither one or tw'o divisions, so as to separate the theologians altogether from those below them ; that is to say, to place in a distinct division, or in tAVO divisions, those Avho, from the nature of their studies, are advancing more nearly to the priesthood? — It Avould be desirable to have the rhetoricians and humanists together in one cliA'ision. Such a division would be a kind of petit seminaire ; but hoAV could tliis be effected in our present College ? I see no other Avay of effecting such a desirable division than the erection of a neAV building. The physicians and the logicians Avould fill the present junior house, and you have then no place for tlie rhetoricians and humanists, Avithout making a neiv proA'ision for them. 15. In the OA^ent of such a building as you have mentioned being constructed, Avould it afford accommodation for those tAvo junior divisions ? — It Avould not afford accommodation for those tAvo divisions ; and even supposing the junior house to be large enough for the purpose, it Avould be the same house for both divisions, and there Avould not be a perfect separation. 16. Though under tlie same roof, could not arrangements be made to separate them Avitli reference to discipline ? — No ; such arrangements are quite impossible. If the logi- cians and physicians w'ere placed together, as one division, in the junior house, the house itself and the play-grounds attached to it Avould merely accommodate these tivo classes ; hence, a new building should be constructed for the humanists and rhetoricians, on some other part of the lands of the College. 17. In the meantime, before the perfect arrangement which you allude to could be made, Avould not a partial separation of the students be conducive to discipline ? — I do not think that this partial separation could be effected. The only time in Avhich it could take place Avould be in the time of recreation, and that does not appear to me practicable in the present state of things, as the students are all obliged to assemble in the same chapel, in the same refectory, and in the same prayer-hall. 18. The time of recreation is the only time, is it not, Avhen much practical association of mind and character takes place ? — That is the only time alloAved for such practical association. The students do not interrupt one another during the hours of study, as silence during that time is obligatory on all. ly. Do you think that a separation such as has been mentioned to you, of the rhetori- cians and the loAvest class in one diA'ision, the logicians and physicians in another division, and the theologians in a distinct division, or in tAvo, if it could be accomplished, Avould be a very desirable alteration, with a vieAV to the disciqffine of the College ? — Such div'isions Avould be very desirable. They Avould contribute much to the Avelfare of the College. 2ilh October, 185.). 20 . Very l{ev. ^r. Gafl'ncy, d.d. Wlietlier jjartial separation could l)c effected in tlie meantime. Assoeiation with co- diocesans. Proposed division as well of junior as of senior house. .Junior liousc could not be divided without new buildings. Difficulty of effecting partial separation. 246 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION 'i\th Ocluher, 1^53. 20 . '.Very Kev. j\I. Gaffney, i> i>. Suggested division. Tutorial system. Efficiency of teaching in junior classes. Employment of the Dunhoyne students. Dunboyne students at present supply the place of absent professors. 20. Would it be desirable, with a view to give to the rhetoricians a second Humanity Class, they, in truth, constituting one humanity school '? — The divisions already mentioned appear to me to relate only to the discipline of the College. 2 1 . Would it be desirable to give them more of the tutorial system of teaching, more like the teaching in a petit seminaire on the Continent, than exists under the professorial system ? — The tutorial system of teaching is not practised in the petits seminaires on the Continent. Our rhetoricians and humanists are very busily employed during their hours of study ; they have two classes every day, and they have a class of English four times a week. 22. Would it not he very desirable that they should he taught upon a plan more resembling that of a school than that of a college, -with more assistance in teaching than is at present given ? — I feel a difficulty in giving an 02 )inion upon the subject, when I con- sider the distribution of time in the College. It seems to me not easy to im^iart to them more knowledge than they do receive for the two years they are in the lower classes. The}' have nine lectures every week, and four English Classes. 23. IIow many students arc there in the llhetoric Class’? — I do not know exactly; I suppose there are fifty. 24. Do you think that one man can teach fifty students two hours a day as well as seve- ral teachers could ’? — Certainly not ; hut it is not easy to find time in the collegiate day for a greater number of classes than these which w'e have at present. 2~). Do you think that the division which has been mentioned would not make it 2 )racticahle to instruct those junior classes u}ion the tutorial, in jjrefercnce to the i)rofes- sorial system ? — xVs I have already stated, the division above-mentioned would not facilitate or 2 )revent such a change, if it were considered ju'acticahle. The division w'hich would jdace the rhetoricians and the humanists in a se 2 )arate house would not give them more time for additional classes. They have now three classes every day. 26. Would it not he [jracticahle for the Dunhoyne Students to give some assistance, as was contemplated in one of the Statutes ? — If tlie tutorial system were established in the College, a Dunhoyne student could, of course, give the assistance Sjjoken of ; hut he sliould devote a good deal of his time to prepare himself to give that assistance, and he should necessarily neglect his own studies of the Dunhoyne Establishment. 27. If that were the system in the College, do you not tliink that some of the Dunhoyne students, receiving a little additional sti 2 )end for it, could give that instruction ? — Of course they could. 28. Does it occur to you that, if the Dunboyne Students were to take a jjart in that work, it would he attended, also, -with the advantage of practising them in teaching, which might he afterwards very useful, if they became conductors or superintendents of local seminaries ? — I certainly do ; I only fear that it would interfere with those studies for ■which the Dunhoyne Institution was established, namely, to give the Dunboyne students a more extensive knowledge of theology. Scripture, ecclesiastical history, and canon law'. These are the studies of the Dunboyne students for three years. If the tutorial system was established, the Dunboyne students engaged in teaching could not, of course, make the same jn-ogress in their ow'ii studies as if they were solely devoted to them. 29. Would not that depend very much upon the jiroportion of time which they woidd he required to devote to the assistance of tlie other teachers’? — Yes it ■would, no doubt. They hav'e only four lectures a w'eek on their ow’n establishment. 30. But during one year of their course could not a few' of them he S 2 )ared for tliat purpose ? — i\Iost assuredly. We have three or four of them employed in teaching at present, during the absence of the professors. One of them will replace Mr. Eurlong, who lias obtained leave of absence for some time. This student must give iqi his ow’n class altogether, as he must teach Mr. Furlong’s class during tlie time of his own jJrofessor’s class. 31. Mr. Lavclle is, at present, jierforming that duty, is he not’? — Yes, for a few weeks. We have had the Dunhoyne students teaching for the last fortnight in several classes. 32. Is Mr. Lavelle teaching now ? — For the last week he has been teaching. 33. You are aw'are that by the Statutes the Dunhoyne students are rather ex^iected to take some share in teaching ’? — Yes ; hut that Statute has never been in use excejit when a [irofessor was sick or absent from the College. I speak of the usage in the College for the last nineteen years. 34. But it was originally ex|)ected that they would have leisure for the jiurpose. Does it appear to you that they would have still more leisure now' that they have a fourth year of theology, W'hich they must pass through, or do they remain longer on the Dunboyne Establishment than originally ? — Yes; they ought to have more leisure after a long course of four years. They do not remain longer on the Dunhoyne Establishment than three years. 35. How many Dunhoyne students are engaged as you have mentioned ? — I cannot say ; I think the [professors resumed their classes this morning. 36. How many were there ? — There were six of them so engaged. 37. What were they teaching? — Theology, [philosophy, and Irish. 38. IMr. Lavelle w'as teaching logic, was he not? — Yes. 39. Would it he desirable that the rhetoricians and humanists should he together in a separate house ? — It would he very desirable to have them together in a separate house. Such a house would form a kind of petit seminaire. Another class of humanity would he very desirable for many juniors w'ho are admitted. I I MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 247 40. What Jo you mean by another class of Imnianity ? — I mean a tliircl year in the study of the classics, considei'ing tlie want of j^ood schools in many parts of tlie country, and considering the previous ])rcparation and training of many \vl)o enter tlie College, 1 tiiink that two years are not sufficient to make them good classical scholars. In ]<’ ranee the students are seven or eight years in the 2^ctits semlnaires. d'hey make a very regular course of studies. They enter these seminaries at the age of eleven or twelve years. 'I'heyread a year in each of the following classes : — Neuviome, huitieme, scjitieine, sixicine, ciiupiieme, (]uatrieme, troisieine, secondc, and rhctoriipie. After this course they are excellent classical scholars, and well jireparcd for the higher studies. 41. Do they afterwards, in the foreign seminaries, stimulate the students to keep up their acquaintance with the classical languages after they commence the study of theology ? — They do not in France, except the study of Hebrew. That is the case in our own College. The student who wishes, in St. Sulpice, to attend the Hebrew Class must obtain a written document from the I’rofessor of JMoral and Dogmatical Theology, stating that said student can spare time for the Hebrew Class. 1 think there were about twenty or twenty-five in the Hebrew Class in my time. 42. Is it optional with the students now to enter the Hebrew Class in Maynooth ? — No ; they must get a distinction in theology, or permission from the I’residcnt to join the Hebrew Class. 1 think so, but 1 am not certain. 43. What classes ? — The theologians. 44. In fact, they must become good theologians? — Yes; they must have obtained a distinction in theology, otherwise they might give to the study of Hebrew a time necessary for other studies. The Dunboync students attend the Hebrew Class during their course. It is given by the Professor of Scripture. There are two classes of Hebrew^ the first class and the second class. 45. The theologians who have distinguished themselves, and the Dunboyne students? — Yes. Sometimes some of the Dunboyne students are in the second class with the other students, and a student who is reading the ordinary course may get into the first class by his proficiency. 46. What number are there in those two classes ? — A very small number. 47. About how many ? — I suppose not more than twenty in each class. Perhaps thirty in the two classes. 48. As Senior Dean have you the special charge of a certain number of dormitories, or is that handed over to the Junior Deans? — I have a special charge of a certain number of rooms and corridors. I take my fair share of every duty. 49. Is the visit to the students’ rooms merely for the purpose of seeing that all is going on in order there, or is it as a moans of becoming personally acquainted with the students ? — Both ; of course we visit the rooms according to the Statutes, to see that every thing is orderly in them, to see if the students are in the possession of books which are prohibited, and during the time they are at study in their rooms to see if order and regularity reign on the corridors. Sometimes, too, to become more intimately acquainted with the students. 50. In Avhat manner, and by whom is the ecclesiastical chant taught in the College ? — It is taught by some of the senior students who know the plain chant. There is a large body of them who know the plain chant. They sing in the choir in the chapel, and some of them teach a certain number of students, on Wednesdays, and on Saturdays. There is a singing master, hitherto chosen by the President from among the students, to be the head singing master. He presides over the others in the choir, during the high masses, and vespers. 51. Is that the way in which singing is taught in any other seminary with which you are acquainted? — Yes, it is taught in that way in St. Sulpice; they have no professor in the seminary of St. Sulpice, but, generally speaking, the students in St. Sulpice, are Amiy well qualified to teach the plain chant, as they know it well, before they enter the seminary, having been taught it, for many years in the petits seminaires. 52. Do you think that it would be desirable at Maynooth that there should be a person specially engaged for the purpose of teaching singing and music in the College? — Very desirable, indeed. 53. Would that secure a better teaching than at present ? — I dare say it would. 54. At present the singing is rather in a low state, is it not? — No, it is not ; we have a great many good singers in the College, who know the plain chant well. 55. Do you confine the teaching entirely to the Gregorian Chant? — Yes; some of the students, however, who have a taste for music, assemble together, occasionally, and improve themselves in music, without any teacher. 56. Is it not desirable that they should have a teacher ? — I think it is desirable. A professional teacher, would, I suppose, adopt a better system. 57. Is there any organ in the church of Maynooth ? — No. 58. Has there ever been any organ ? — No. 59. Is there any objection to having an organ in the church? — No ; I would be most happy to see and hear one in our Collegiate chapel; I have often spoken to the Trustees on this subject. 60. If there were one, would there not be this advantage, that some of the students who had a taste for music might be taught to play on the organ ? — I spoke, some years ago, to the late Archbishop JIurray, on the subject of having an organ, and he said to me, But how will you get it played.” I told him that we could employ a teacher, for some short time ; that some of the students would soon learn to play on it, and would teach others ‘2Uh Ortoher, 1S53. 20 . Very Itev. M. OiifFney, Tliinl cliissifal year desirable. Hebrew class. Visits to the students’ rooms. Ecclesiastical chant. Teacher of singing. Want of an organ. 248 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. October, 1853. Very Kev. M. Oiiffncy, d.d. Separation between stuilents and l>rofessors. System at St. Sulpicc. In Rome. All-IIallows. Difficulty of effecting desired intercourse between professors and students by reason of the difference in tlieir liours. Suggestion that superiors should take their meals in common hall with the students. in their turn, and thu.^t, this very useful acquirement, tvouhl be perpetuated in the College. AVe would not require a professional teacher for more than half a year. 61. Tlie same person wlio tauglit singing might also teach tlie organ and instrumental music, could lie not ? — Yes, if such a person could he found. 62. It would he a great accomplishment to the students when they went out into the world ■? — Yes. it would give them a taste for church music, and they could direct others in their own churches hereafter. 63. Is there not a great separation existing between the students and the professors at times when they are not in class? — There is, 1 may say, a total separation existing between the professors and the students as a body. 61. Is there not also a very considerable separaticn existing between the students and the deans, as to any friendly commnnications ? — 1 think not : so far as friendly communica- tion goes, I think we are on veiw good terms. The community is so very large that we cannot have much intercourse with the students as a body. 65. Do not you think, that it would be desirable, that there should be more communica- tion, if it were practicable? — 1 would be glad if there were, 1 do think that it would be very desirable; I fear, however, that it is not practicable either now, or in the future. 66. Would it be practicable if the house were divided into another class, instead of being gathered together in so large a body as they are at ])resent ? — Uf course, intercourse would then be more easy, 1 will not venture to say that it would be more jtracticable. 67. Do you think it a desirable system that such a total separation should exist between the .students and the ])rofessors as exists now ? — I do not think it a desirable svstem ; 1 think it would be desirable if there were a greater intercourse in the hours out of class, princi- pally in the time of recreation. 68. Would it not tend to soften and improve the manners of the students ? — If it were practicable, I think it would. 69. There is no such sejjaration as exists at Maynooth, is there, in St. Sulpice between the students and the superiors? — Xo ; but the St. Sulpicians are a religious body, totally devoted for life to the education of the clergy, and in France the superiors are very familiar ■\\ith the students. 70. Is it not so in the College of the Saint Esprit? — Yes, in all the French Colleges, and in others. 71. Is not the discipline that exists at ilaynooth unique, as compared with any part of the world? — I think that the French are more inclined to that communication with the students than any other people. I do not think that in Home there is much communication of that kind. 72. Or in Germany? — 1 cannot say. I was in Home for about two months; I made there some imjuiries, for information sake, to learn something about the system of discqdine in the seminaries. I think the superiors in the Homan seminaries, have not much intercourse Aviththe students. The colleges are small; and though small, the students arc divided into camaratas, and a senior student presides over each camarata. One camarata goes to one place, and another to another, and the students pass the hours of recreation in their appointed ] daces. 73. Are you a\A-are of the system pursued in the College of All-IIalloAvs ? — I am. The superiors and ]n'ofessors of that College have adopted the Sidpician system. 74. Is it, or not, the .same as is practised at Maynooth ? — There is more communication between the superiors and the students at All- Hallows. 75. If a greater distribution of the students Avas made at ^laynooth, it Avould be possible, Avould it not, to introduce the same system there ?— That Avould depend very much upon the ])rofessors and superiors. 76. If it could be done, Avould it be desirable? — I hesitate to offer an opinion on this matter. Were 1 to answer in the affirmative, many of my confreres Avould, I know, ansAA'er in the negative. They Avonld not agree Avith me on this subject. 1 Avill, then, merely say, that I am a great admirer of the system of St. Sulpice. 77. Do you think that there is any difficulty arising from the number of the students relatively to the number of professors being larger ? — That, of course, is one of the diffi- culties, l)ut there are many others : our recreations, and those of the students, are at different hours. They dine at three o’clock, and aa-c dine at four. A\’hen we are leaving, our dining-room the bell rings for the students to go into the study halls in Avinter, or to their rooms in summer. In the morning, the studeiits have recreation for three-quarters of an hour. They go at that time to look for their letters, or they go to the front gate for different purposes : at that time the professors are at breakfast. The recreations of the professors and of the students being thus, at different hours, the intercourse spoken of is clearly not practicable. 78. At .St. Sulpice do not the profe.ssoi\s and students dine together? — Yes. 79. If that Avere the case at Maynooth that Avould obviate the objection, AA’ould it not, Avhich you have just mentioned? — It Avould obAuate the objection Avith regard to the differ- ence of the time of recreation, but it Avould not ansAver other objections Avhich might be made. We have'no refectory large enough to accommodate ourselves and the students. The present refectory is filled Avith the senior students to the veiy door. 80. Those comprise the natural philosophers, do they not ? — Theologians and natural philosophers. 81. Do you think that the mere difference in numbers [docs constitute an insuperable difficulty ? — It is, no doubt, a great difficulty. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 249 82. 1 meant the jjroportion between the number of students and j)rofessors. Would that bo a didietdty in tbe way of introduciiis;, to a great e.xteut, and with advantage, a system under wbieli there should be intercourse between tbe superiors and the students? — It would bo a ditliculty in the way of iutroduciiig such a system. If the senior house were even divided into two parts, the number would be still tiie same. Though you sliould have two ditfereut play grounds, the total number would be always the same, and the number being so great, very little facility would be alforded to the superiors and ])rofessors of walking with the students. Tbe students have their own com])anious in recreation. If a professor ora superior went to join them, tliey might not like it. Some would be jdeased with it, others would not. In France the students are accustomed to this intercourse with their superiors from their earliest youth, and they are delighted with it. 83. Does not that arise from the system which is pursued ?^ — Yes; and when a system has e.xisted for more than fifty years, it is not an easy matter to change it. Some would be for changing it, others would entertain a quite coiitrary opinion. 84. Suppose all the professors and superiors were to consent to dine with the students, and consented or were induced to join iii morning and evening prayer with the students, and supposing there were room in the refectory to dine with them, do you or not think that that would be a desirable change for the College ? — 1 will say, that I think it would bo a most desirable change for the College. 85. Do you think that it would have a teudency to nourish an affectionate reverence on the part of the studento towards their professors ami superiors? — I cannot say for certain, but I am of ojiinion that it w'ould have that effect. 86. Would it have the effect of presenting a good exanqile to the students with a view to friendly intercourse in future life, and with a view to the practice of the devotions of the community? — Such an arrangement willingly embraced by all, and strictly adhered to, would, 1 have no doubt on the subject, be the source of great good to the College. 1 fear that such an arrangement is not practicable. 87. The question a.ssumes that the repugnance was overcome, and that the thing was done. Do you think it would have a tendency to nourish a more affectionate reverence towards the ])rofessors and superiors than now exists in the College of Maynootli ? — I think it would have that tendency. 88. Do not you think that the total separation which exists at ])resent betw'een the students and their professors and superiors, the stand-off system that j)revails, is calculated to have an injurious effect upon the students? — 1 do. However, I must say, that the Commissioners appear to suppose that the stand-ofl' system is carried to a great extent in the College. Such is not the case, as every student who washes to communicate on any subject with a superior or professor is ahvays kindly received. 89. Are you aware whether the students themselves have an}' feeling on the subject ? — I am not aw'are. I do not know their sentiments on that subject. 90. Docs every dean, do you suppose, know personally, and by name, every student ? — Yes, except the names of the juniors wdio enter College for the first time, which w'e do not know for a month or tw’o after their admission. 91. The w'hole 500 ? — Yes ; that is his duty. 92. Should you know' the name of a student if you saw him ? — Yes. 93. Is there that sort of relation existing between them, that if they meet outside the College they would greet each other as acquaintances? — Yes there is. We often meet students in vacation, and they are glad to see us, and Ave are happy to see them. I often receive affectionate and kind letters from young priests on the mission. 94. Have you ever found your intimacy with a student dispose him in the slightest degree to disobey your authority ? — On the contrary. 1 have a strong and unchangeable opinion on the subject, an opinion of long duration, formed at the time of my own collegi- ate course. The best key to open the door of the human heart is kindness. I have almost alw'ays found this to l)e the case. There are, no doubt, in colleges, as everywhere else, persons wdio are by nature selfish and ungrateful, on whom kindness will make no impression ; but they are exceptions, and are few. 95. Considering the age and learning of the professors and superiors, do you think if they associated freely with the students that it would, in any way, diminish their authority, or interfere with the discipline of the College ? — 1 am of opinion that it would not. 96. You have had experience of the working of the College of St. Sulpice, and eighteen years’ experience of the w'orking of Maynootli, have you not? — Yes. 97. Do you think that the separation into dioceses at the after-dinner meetings is so popular among the students that they w'ould be umvilling to give it up ? — It is very popular, I believe, and it is natural enough that it should be so. There are in the senior bouse fifteen — -twenty, perhaps tw’enty-five persons — from the same diocese. They were probably educated together from early youth. They were neighbours in the world. They came to College to be the future priests of the same diocese, so that there are many ties of connexion and friendship betw'een them, which naturally lead them to have constant intercourse with one another. This intercourse, however, of diocesans is not exclusive, except in the recreations after dinner. After breakfast and after supper persons of different dioceses w'alk frequently together. It would appear to me desirable that there should bo a little more intercourse betiveen persons of different dioceses, as such intercourse w’ould be calculated to improve the habits, the manners, and accent of many. However, in giving expression to this opinion, I must admit that there are many advantages in the Zllll Ortiih/T, IS.'i-'t 2a Very l!cv. M. (iiirt'ney, d i>. Good efl'ccts to l)0 expected from such change. Relation between deans and students. After dinner separation into groups of co-dioce.sans popular amoug the student.s. 250 MAYXOOTn COMMISSION. mh October, 1^53. 20 . Very Rev. M. Gaffney, d.d. Diet. Recreation before dinner. Medical attendance. Fees to medicaL officers. present system of intercourse. If another system 'tvere considered advisable, I think the students would not object to it. OS. Arc you aware that there has been a desire expressed among some of the students to have a change of diet, and to have tea substituted more generally for cocoa? — They have been asking for tea for the last four or live years. They have petitioned the Board several times for tea. 99. On what grounds is it thought not desh’able to allow it? — 1 suppose the grounds are, that cocoa is cheaper than tea. 1 would be glad to see tea inti-oduced in the jjlace of cocoa, for many reasons. I have never s])okcn to any of the Trustees on tlie subject, because I was never consulted about it. '.fhe students wish for tea because they think it, I suppose, more palatable, and lighter for breakfast ; but, with the exception of tea, I tliink tliere is not in any seminary a refectory better provided with every thing that is substantial and good. 100. Have you heard complaints of the cocoa being bad or ill-prepared, and has your attention ever been called to it at the time? — Yes. The students have sometimes spoken to me about it, in the refectory. I then spoke to tlie Bursar, and to the person Avho prepared the cocoa, and I generally got for answer tliat the cocoa was of the best quality. 101. Have you tasted it yourself, so as to form an opinion of its quality? — 1 am not a good judge of its quality by its taste, as I have a great dislike for it. 102. A suggestion has been made with respect to the hour of recreation, that it would be very advantageous to the students to have a half-liours recreation before dinner, instead of going from study to dinner. Have you any opinion to offer as to whether that would bo desirable or not ? — I really think that the students of Maynooth have sufficient recreation. They have much more tlian at St. Sulpice. 1 0.3. Are they allowed it at the most fitting moments, do you think ? — In the way that time has been distributed in the College, it would be very difficult to give half an hour before dinner. 104. Do you know what fees are paid to Dr. O’Kelly? — He has IO 5 . 6d. from each of the students. 105. Is that paid out of the College funds, and not out of the students’ means? — It is paid out of the College funds. 106. Is it 10s. ikl. a year for each student? — Yes. 107 . Dr. Corrigan has £10 a month, has he not? — Yes, for one visit per month. 108. A.nd the apothecary, ]\Ir. O’Kelly, receives £250 a year, does he not ? — Dr. O’Kelly and his son ; both attend the College for that sum. Every professor gives Dr. O’Kelly £l or a guinea per annum. 109. Ai'e you aware whether the students are satisfied or otherwise with the medical attendance which they receive ? — They have sometimes complained of the attendance of Di’. O’Kelly ; that he did not come at the appointed hour. Dr. O'Kelly was spoken to. I have not heard any complaints for some time past. Dr. O’Kelly is very attentive when there is any serious case, and very assiduous. 110. AY ill you explain what you mean by a serious case? — I conceive a case to be- serious when a person happens to be very ill, or is threatened with any serious illness. Dr. O’Kelly is very attentive on such occasions; he is constantly with the patient. I have heard some of the professors say that they considered Dr. O’ Kelly a very safe man; that if Dr. Corrigan was required. Dr. O’Kelly would call him into the College in proper time. 1 1 1. Are you aware whether the professors or students have confidence in Dr. O’Kelly? — I cannot say. They, of course, do not think so much of him as they do of Dr. Corrigan ; but they consult him whenever they stand in need of medical advice. Dr. Kelly has great experience. 1 1 2. There is no one else, is there ? — No, except Dr. Corrigan. 113. You ai-e not aware whether they have confidence in him or not? — I am really not aware. I think the majority of the students have that confidence. 114. Do you hear many complaints from them on the subject? — The principal com- plaint I heard of was, that the doctor went sometimes too late to the infirmary. Generally speaking, the students get leave in the morning to go to the infirmary — at half past eleven o’clock in the morning. It was now and then stated to me that the doctor did not come in till half past twelve. The young doctor has been veiy exact to time. 115. Are you aware or not whether the students generally have confidence in Div O’Kelly, as the medical attendant ? — I really do not know. I think the great majority have confidence in him. 116. In case of any accident, who is it that calls in the surgical attendant from Dublin? — Dr. O’Kelly calls in Surgeon Ellis. 117 . And the surgeon cannot be called in unless Dr. O’Kelly choses to call him, can he ? — I believe Dr. O’Kelly generally speaks to the President on the matter. 118. It is through the medium of Dr. O’Kelly that the Avhole matter is managed, is it, not ? — Y’es. He is supposed to be the best judge in those matters. 119. Are you aware whether any dissatisfaction exists because the surgeon is not called in as often as is requisite and desirable? — I did hear some complaints; but, however, I cannot say whether they were well founded or not. 120. Dr. O’Kelly has been a long time attending the College, has he not? — I believe for nearly fifty years. lAllNUTKS OF EVIDENCE. 251 121. Arc you aware Avlictlicr Dr. O’Kelly, junior, has consicleraMe practice in the adjoin- ing country 2 — I do not know the extent of his practice. 1 think ho practises in and outside the town of Maynooth. 122. Docs Dr. O'Kclly, junior, accompany his father, when he visits the College? — No ; he conies more frequently now tlian the father ; sometiincs they come together, when there is any serious case. 123. How often docs Dr. Corrigan call in a year in addition to his monthly visits ? — Very seldom ; he comes whenever he is called in by Dr. O’Kelly. 124. How often do you siqipose that ho came last year, besides the monthly visits, which ho is hound to pay? — 1 do not recollect his having come more than two or three times. 125. Are you aware of there being a body elected among some of the senior students Committiie of the as a medium of communication hetween the students, generally, and the authorities? — 1 senior students, have heard of the existence of a body of that kind. The Trustees have condemned that body, and they have passed a resolution which states, I am told, that they do not recognize any such body in the College. I2G. When did they pass that resolution ? — Last week. 127. Has not such a body always existed in the College? — No; I think it has existed only for three or four years. Dcforc that time,Avhen the students wished for any thing from the Board of Trustees, the senior of each class signed the petition to the Trustees ; the body spoken of persons), it seems, Avere elected by the senior class, they themselves being of the same class. They Avere condemned, I have heard, by the great majority of their oavu class, Avhen the contents of the petition to the Trustees Avere known. 128. lIoAV came they to be elected if there aars not a majoidty in their favour? — There was, of course, a majority in their favour Avhen they Avere elected ; but they went beyond their poAvers in draAving up the petition to the Board. The expressions used in this peti- tion to the Trustees Avere so indecorous, so unusual, and the statement so untrue, that one of the six members AvithdrcAV altogether from the other five, and Avoidd not sign it. These students drew uj) a document, Avhich, after it became knoAvn, Avas condemned, not only by their oAvn class, hut by all the classes of the College. The students Avere all under the impression that a petition, couched in respectful terms, had been presented to the Trustees, Avith a view to get tea for breakfast ; and Avhen they heard that these six ivould-he leaders had sent a most impudent and impei-tinent document to the Trustees, they Avere all indignant. IMaiiy of the students told me that the entire body had been misrepresented, and that they feared the Trustees Avould not grant them tea for a long time to come, on account of the misconduct of these six men. 129. You speak of a memorial that was recently presented to the Trustees? — Yes, last week, on the 18th of October, 1 think. ^lulentT. ° 130. Are you aAvare Avhat things Avere asked for ? — I did not sec the petition, but I have iieception room lor heard that they asked for tea; 1 do not knoAV Avhethcr they spoke of Friday's dinner or their friends, not. They asked for one thing Avhich is very much Avanted in the College, a reception- room for the visiting friends of the students. When persons come to visit a student, he has no place to receive them in, except in his oavu little room. If there Avere a large recep- tion-room prepared, and Avell furnished, several students might receive their friends in it, and sit in ditferent parts of it : such a room Avould contribute very much to order and decorum in the reception of friends. 131. Then you think Avhat they requested in that petition was nothing in itself unreason- able ; Avhat else did they ask for ? — They asked for tea. I have heard that the petition AA"as prefaced with complaints, one of Avhich Avas, that there existed a feeling of disaffection betAveen the students and the superiors, Avhich I do not believe to be the case. The dictatorial tone of this document addressed to the Board displeased the Trustees very much, and they instantly passed a resolution, declaring that they did not recognise any elected body of the kind in the College. 132. You believe that the constitution of a body of this kind is a novelty, and that the body has only existed during the last three years? — Yes. 1*33. You think that the elected body is a novelty? — Certainly; the election is a novelty. 134. But there has always been a sort of recognized organ of communication betAveen the Trustees and the students, has there not? — Yes, ahvays. When you receive petitions, you giA'e power to present them. 135. The senior students before have been considered as the legitimate channel of com- munication betAveen the body of the students and the Trustees ? — They AA'cre not the only channels, for 1 knoAV that until Avitliin the last foAV years, Avhen a petition Avas about to be presented to the Board, it Avas customary to get each senior of a class to sign it, and the petitions, as long as I can remember, AA'ere ahvays couched in the most modest and becom- ing terms until this year. 13(5. Do you think that in the old building you coidd find a couple of rooms for the reception of the students’ friends ? — There are tAvo very fine parlours in the front house, Avhich are noAV vacant, and Avould ansAver that purpose very well. 137. Could you give the dates of the deaths that have occurred in the last five years? — I do not know the dates, but the deaths Avere in 1849, 4 ; 1850, 2; 1851, 5; 1852, 4; 1853, 5. I fear Ave shall have a great many deaths, or injured constitutions, from the iieAV house, unless something is done to dry and warm it. It is both damp and cold. 2 Ic 2 October, 1853. Very Uev. M. Gaffney, u-n- 252 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. ia Very l!ev. !M. Gaflney, i>.i>. .'Students who left the Collefje in eonsey of this list of names to the dean who presides in the refectory. The dean looks through the refectory. If he sees a place vacant, he examines his list to see if the vacancy be caused by the absence of a person whose name is on that list. He fills up the vacancy with a junior student, to complete the mess, which consists of eight persons ; we have such a list every day, and it is also registered in a book, so that we know those w'ho are in the infirmary, every day of the year. 174. Is that the only list that is made out of the sick ? — I do not know of any other. 1 75. is it made with a view to ascertain who are to be supplied with food in the refec- tory, and what food is to be supplied to the infirmary ? — That list regards chiefly persons in the infirmary. 17fi. Is the purpose of the list to apprize the person who provides for the refectory of those who are to dine there, and to apprize those who are to supply the infirmary of what is to be sent there ?— It is the same person who is charged with providing for the refectory and for the infirmary, d’ho list which I have s})oken of does answer a double purpose, for if you deduct tbe number of those who dine in the infirmary from the total number of the students, you have the number of those who are to dine in the refectory. 177. With the exception of that list you are not aware of any other? — No. 1 7 Have you any list to show under Avhat illness the students labour? — No, we have not. 179. How do you know when a student returns from the infirmary ? — We have various ways of knowing when a student leaves the infirmary. He comes to the refectory ; the stu- dent who was put in his place vacates it, and he resumes his place. He attends his other collegiate duties. IhO. You only learn it in that way ? — I learn it in many other ways; I have often asked students if they would be able soon to leave the infirmary ; I have sometimes advised them to leave it. ISI. Would there be any objection to a list being furnished regularly to the dean, by the doctor every day giving a report upon the complaints or upon the state of the infirmary generally, who are in and who are out of it ? — There would be no objection to such a list ; I think, however, that the list we get is suflicient for all purposes : Ave know the students who are ill; we visit them frequently, U2. There is no one dean, is there, Avho has special charge of the infirmary — it is one one day and another another, and in that Avay is it possible, it being the special business of no one dean, that the infirmary should not be visited on a day by some dean ? — The duty of visiting the infirmary is incumbent upon all the deans. There is scarcely a day that it is not visited more than once by the deans. Ibo. 'I'here are three other deans, but how do you knoAv whether the infirmary has been visited by some other dean ? — I sometimes say to one of the junior deans, “Go to the infirmary to day, I cannot.” We make arrangements among ourselves on this matter, so that the infirmary is visited every day by one or two of us. 184. That seems rather to imply that you would feel it necessary to go yourself ? — No, it docs not imply that I feel that my personal visit is necessary. If the infirmary is visited by any of the deans the duty incumbent upon us all is fulfilled. That visit is secured by our arrangements. IS". Suppose a student is taken ill at night? — I generally hear of it. 18G. Suppose he is taken ill in the morning and goes to the infirmary in the morning, unless the dean visits the infirmaiy Avill he know any thing of his illness until he finds the list at dinner ? — If a student be very ill we ai’e sure to get notice of it. 187. Suppose he goes to the infirmary not labouring under any such violent illness as Avould require to be specially reported to the dean, but suppose he goes to the infirmary, has the dean any mode of learning that he is there unless by a personal visit, or by finding his name on the list at dinner ? — He has ; he has another means of knowing it. Every student is obliged to be at prayer in the morning, unless he has leave to be absent ; and if he is not in the prayer hall the monitor under AAdiose care he is placed will tell me that such a person is ill in his room, or is gone to the infirmary. One of the deans goes, after prayer, either to the student’s room or to the infirmary to see him. I have often done so. illh Octohrr, is.^n. Very Rev. M. Gidlney, d.J). 254 MAYxXOOTH COMMISSION. 2 Uh October, 180G. Very llev. ]kL Gaffney, d.u. Premiutii?, Suggested change in mode of giving premiums. All the three students called to ])remhims should get them. ^Yhen such a student told me that he was not very ill, and that he required no medical advice until the doctor would come at half-past eleven o’clock. If I tliought him more indisposed than he seemed to think himself I sent a servant without delay for the doctor. 188. You do not take down any list of names until the doctor comes — No. 189. Tliere is no written list of the sick except the names of those who are not to dine in the refectory with the other students, and of what they require either in the infirmary or at the separate table in the hall ? — We have no other list than that wdiich 1 mentioned. That list seems to be quite sufficient for all purposes. 190. The primary object of that is with reference to food? — The primary object is to show what the doctor has ordered for each of the students, and we make use of that list to know the students, who, by the doctor’s advice, are withdrawn from the refectory, and from other duties. 191. There is no statement of what ails the student ? — No. 192. Is there any document in writing that would enable the authorities to ascertain, if they chose, whether a student had typhus fever or inflammation of the lungs? — None whatever ; but w’e generally see the doctor every daj', and if a person be in such a state as that mentioned we are sure to know it immediately. 193. Have you any thing to do with the disposition of the prizes given in the College? — Nothing whatever. 194. Do you know what they are? — Yes, I do ; 1 call the list every year, in the hall, of all those who are to get premiums. The books are placed before me on the bench, and before the bishops, and they are given by the President to the successful students of each class. 195. Are the Trustees present? — They always are. The disti-ibution of the premiums takes place at the time of the meeting of the Board of Trustees. 196. lias it been the custom at Maynooth to let the students select the premiums? — No, the premiums are given to them. Three persons are generally called to each premium. The three persons cast lots for it, and one obtains it. 197. Has it been at all the system at Maynooth to give a successful student a premium of a certain value, and to leave to himself, subject to the control of the superiors, the selection of a book of that value? — No such system has existed in the College. The books are always laid on the bench in the large hall, and mai’ked for each class, “ First Premium in Theology,” “ Second Premium in Theology,” “ Third Premium in Theology,” and so on for the other classes in their order. The President holds a book closed, and the three persons called to the premium come forward, and open the book with a knife ; and he who cuts nearest to a certain letter of the alphabet wins the premium. There is a basket o£ small books placed in the hall, and those who have lost the prize take one of those hooks. They are not worth much. 198. What are they ? — Carew’s Ecclesiastical History, Reeve’s History of the Church, Bossuet’s Variations, &c. 199. What are the prizes given to theological students, generally? — The works of Bossuet and Fenelon, the works of Massillon and Bourdaloue ; sometimes a large, well- hound missal ; for the third premium, a breviary, bound in red morocco. 200. Is it Coyne’s Breviary? — Yes. 201. Is that a valuable book? — It is not. 202. What is it sold now for in the market ? — I suppose for fifteen shillings, unbound. 203. What did it cost the Trustees? — One pound ; they bought 1,000 copies of it. 204. AViiat number is there remaining now? — I cannot say. 205. W^ere any of them damaged or spoiled by damp ? — I do not know; I am not charged with tlie care of tliem. 206. AVho is charged with them? — The Librarian. 207. AVho is he ? — Dr. O'Hanlon. 208. AVouid it not be a desirable mode of distributing the pi’izes to fix a certain value, and then let the successful student select a book of that value, subject to the approval of the superiors of the College, rather than to keep a store, and oblige every man to take some one ? — ^It would be a very good system. The books that are selected are generally very good books, and such as an ecclesiastic ought to have. 209. Is a bi’eviaiy of that class ?— Yes. 210. Does not it occur to you that that £1,000 would have been better applied by paying, from time to time, the value of the book selected by the students with the concurrence of the superiors, than in the purchase of a large store of books? — I beg leave to decline giving an opinion on the acts of tlie Trustees. This I will say, that I am of opinion that when three students are called to premiums, they ought all to got premiums. 211. AA^hat objection is there to having a Hebrew Class to be attended by a larger number? — There is no objection that I know of. The attendance at it is not obligatory on any student except the Dunboyne students. 212. The same teacher teaches the Scripture, does he not? — Ves. 213. How many attend that Scripture Class? — The first division of the senior class of theologians, the second division, and the second year’s divines. 1 he total numbers about 200 persons. Before the chair of ecclesiastical history was established, all the divines attended the Scripture Class. At present the first year’s divines attend the Ecclesiastical History Class. 214. You stated that you were at Rome for some time. For two months, about three years ago. I was in a bad state of health, and I was advised to go to Rome. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2r,5 215. Dill you learn enough of the system of ecclesiastical education there to ho able to explain to the Commissioners what it is?- — I could not speak confidently on tlie subject, as my opportunities of judging it were few, owing to the shortness of my stay in that city. I made inquiries in Romo regarding the system of education followed there, and with the exception of the system of education in the College of the rro[)aganda and in that of the Appollonari, I thouglit tlio system of education was not so useful or practical for missionary priests as our own ; and as the Commissioners wish me to speak of St. Sulpice, I will unhesitatingly say that I prefer it to any other seminary in the world. 2lG. Will you just state shortly the reasons why you prefer St. Sulpice? — I jirefer St. Sulpice, firstly, because the system of education in St. Sulpice has been tried for 200 years, and has attained the ends for which it was established. This system has produced the best clergy in the Catholic world. This is not the mere opinion of an hundile indi- vidual like myself, liable to prejudice in favour of a seminary in which I was educated, it was the mature and deliberate opinion of the late Cardinal Dacca, expressed in a discourse which he delivered before the cardinals in Home, a few months before his death, lie said, emphatically — (he had resided for a long time in France) — that the French clergy were the best clergy in the whole Catholic Church. Secondly, I prefer St. Sulpice, because the system of government is the most paternal that can be imagined. There is no distinction there of a governing body and a professorial body : there is hut one body, entirely and devotedly attached to the improvement of those under their care, in learning, in piety, and in every thing calculated to form the good and zealous priest. Those good Sulpicians are more like fathers than masters, and seem to forget themselves to attend only to the interests of those who have the happiness of being placed under their care. Thirdly, I prefer St. Sulpice, because, in the Sulpician seminaries a spirit of order and regularity reigns, which cannot be well described. A person should live for some time among those devoted men to feel the powerful influence which their system possesses for training young minds to the practice of the sacerdotal virtues.. Fourthly, I prefer St. Sulpice, because you have there the students from the petits seminaires. They enter St. Sulpice after having been trained from their early yoiitli in the petits seminaires in the practice of every virtue. Some of the bishops of France also send a few of the most dis- tinguished students of their own diocesan seminaries to read a long course in St. Sulpice, after the completion of their theological studies in the seminaries of their own native dioceses. Fifthly, I prefer St. Sulpice, because the most perfect spirit of charity reigns among the students. I was in St. Sulpice for many years, and during that time I never saw a student hurt the feelings of another ; I never witnessed a cabal ; I never witnessed an act of disobedience ; I never heard a word of complaint. Those I’easons, and m.any others which I could give the Commissioners, make me prefer St. Sulpice to any other seminary I know or have heard of. I might add, that I know a few clergymen who studied in Maynooth, in St. Sulpice, and afterwai’ds in Rome, who told me, some years ago, that St. Sulpice was superior to every seminary they had seen. 217. Will you state more particulary what you give the preference to in St. Sulpice? — • In addition to what I have already said, I may add, that the theological teaching is as good as it can be in any part of the world. You have, in St. Sulpice, very learned pro- fessors, who devote their entire life to study, and enter class every day with a vast and •w'ell-digested mass of information on the subjects they treat of. You have the same excellent ecclesiastical spirit in St. Sulpice now which existed there a century ago, and will continue to exist. As the Sulpicians are a religious congregation, there can be no falling off from the spirit of their seminaries. When one professor drops off he is replaced by another who has the same spirit. Though the Sulpicians are not bound by any vow to remain in the congregation, it is a rare thing to see one of them leave it. 218. They loved the system? — Y'^es, and that is calculated to make a deep impression upon the students. 219. Do you ascribe much of the merit of the system to the patenial character that exists on the part of the superiors, and their kindness towards the students? — Yes I do. I never can foi’get those good priests. 220. Do you ascribe any part of it to the system of teaching in the same halls, and joining in the same devotions ? — I cannot ascribe any thing to the teaching in the same halls ; that duty is performed in the same way as in every other seminary. They lead with the students a strict community life ; they mingle continually Avith them, and join them in all the exercises of piety. To these circumstances may be ascribed, in a great measure, the deep impression their system makes upon the students. 221. Was the institution of St. Sulpice aggregated to the University of Paris before the Kevolution, or Avas it an independent body? — It Avas always, from the time of its institution, an independent body. 222. It AA^as not like the Sorbonne ? — No, that was a university. The students of St. Sulpice Avent to the Sorbonne to take out their degrees. 223. They AA’ere all independent institutions? — Yes. 224. Before the Revolution they formed no part of the University system ? — No, except in the AA’ay I have mentioned ; they Avent to the University to graduate. The students of St. Sulpice may have gone for some time to class to the University. 225. Upon Avhat plan do the p>^tits seminaires instruct; is it upon the professorial or tutorial yilan ? — On the professorial plan. 226. How many teachers are there ? — There are generally fiA'e or six clergymen in ail/i Ortohn-, isr,.!, w. Very Ivov. M. Giili'iiey, d.d. Preference of wU- ncss for St. Suli ice, and liis r.asons. Its success. Its paternal discip- line. Its order and regularity. The previous train- ing of its students in petits seminaires. Its spirit of charity and freedom from faction and cabal. Its theological teaching. Its ecclesiastical spirit. Petits seminaires. 256 MAY^s'OOTII COxMMISSIOX.' ■Uth October, 1853. 2 ^ Very Kev'. M. (iafiTney, u.d. Course in the i'rentv. colleges. Koinan seminaries. Cainaratas. each of the petlts semiaaires, ami three or four young ecclesiastic.^, some of whom have finished their wdiole theological course, but not being of age to be ordained, they are employed by the bishop for some time in teaching the lower classes in these petits $eminaires. 227. Is the ])rofessor in each class assisted by one of those young men? — No, the young man is the teacher of a class himself. 228. How many are tliere in each class? — I suppose not more tlian thirty. 229. IIow often does tlie professor or teacher instruct them ; docs he give them merely a lecture a day, or does lie go through their business continually ? — lie gives them two lectures a day. Tliey have an admirable system in the petits seniinaires of France of teacliing the languages. Each student is obliged to bring a composition every day into cla.ss ; the professor collects the compositions of all his pupils before class, and at the end of the class he takes them with him to his room, and there corrects them all for the following class ; he then reads them in the class as they originally were, and as they are now made by the corrections. Thus they learn French, Clreek, and Latin, in the petits seminaires. They translate the best authors every day, and they write these languages several times a week. When they are in the Troisieme, two years before they get into rhetoric, the French students write Latin poetry with great facility. 230. lias that practice also a tendency to make them accpiainted with their own language ? — Yes, assuredly. 231. That practice does not prevail at Maynooth? — Not every day, but still it docs prevail to some e.xtent. 232. Not to the same extent ? — No ; it cannot, owing to the previous preparation of the students who enter our College. 233. From i\\c petits seminaires, do they enter upon the study of Logic and Physics?— Yes. 234. Is there in any foreign establishment anything equivalent to the Dunboyne Estab- lishment, namely, an addition to the theological course, over and above the four years’ study, any great or new feature of instruction ? — No, except what 1 have mentioned before as regards St. Sulpice, some of the bishops of France send a few of their most distinguished students to read a long course of theology in St. Sulpice, after the completion of the ordinary course, in the diocesan seminaries. 235. Then those students at St. Sulpice wouhl represent somewhat the Dunboyne students, namely, those who have completed their four years, and who then enter upon an additional course over and above that? — Ves. 236. What is the whole course of the students, including the j)etits seminaires ? — Eight years. 237. Then he enters upon the study of logic and phy.sics? — Yes. 238. Then for three or four years he studies theology ? — Yes. 239. Does that complete his education ? — Yes; they go into thepc-t/t*' seminaires very young ; at ten years of age, twelve, and thirteen. 210. About what age do they enter the Logic and Physics Class generally? — Some of them are very young. I knew some young men who had finished their whole course of rhetoric, logic, and physics, at the age of sixteen. Generally sjieaking, the French students begin the study of logic at the age of eighteen ; 1 mean those who come from the petits seminaires. There is a great spirit of emulation kept up in the petits saninaires. Ever}' Saturday there is a composition in each class, and on Sunday evenings the superior or professor enters the large public hall, ascends the pidpits and reads out the names of the students who got the first ])laces in composition on Saturday. Gold medals attached to a ribbon is given to them. They wear it during the entire week ; they dine at the superior's table during the entire week after. A silver medal is given to those who obtain the second place in composition, and they are treated in a similar way. If they tail in the composition on the following Saturday, they lose all these privileges. 241. Why is it that you prefer the system at St. Sulpice to the system pursued in Italy? — [ think I may refer with confidence to the reasons 1 have already given for my preference in favour of St. Sulpice. In addition to the atlmirablo system of discipline established in that seminary, the students have all the advantages which a university can afford, without the loss of time, and the distractions which university classes must necessarily cause. Owing to the shortness of my stay in Italy, and the few opportunities I had ot observing the details of the Italian system, I cannot speak more confidently about it ; hut from what J did see and hear of it, the system of St. Sulpice appears to me to be preferable to it. 24 2. What is the plan pursued with respect to discipline in the Eoman seminaries? — In the Eoman seminaries the chief rules of discipline are of course the same as in all other seminaries : prayer, exercises of piety, spiritual reading in common, study, and silence at certain times. The place of study, the recreations, and the walks are regulated by the cama- rata system. 243*. Upon what system arc the cainaratas conducted? — Suppose sixty persons in a seminary, those sixty persons are divided into six divisions, and each division is called a camarata ; each camarata is separated from the others, during the time of study, during the time of recreations, and on the public walks. Those sixty persons never assemble together except at those duties which are common for the entire community. Each camarata has a prefect. 244. Each camarata is a little family in itself, is it not?— Yes, and a senior student pre- sides over it. MIXUTES OF EVIDKXCE. 257 245. The prefect is not an ofllccr of the house? — No, not necessarily. He sometimes is. 24G. Have you ever occasion to advise students before tliey leave the College as to their future conduct iu their missions? — I consider it a sacred duty to give advice to the students during their entire course of studies. 1 give them a great many instructions, and when they are leaving tlie College for over, 1 do not fail to impress upon tlicir minds the importance and the sacredness of the obligations winch are imposed upon them as ministers of religion, that they should ho the models of the ])Coplc in all things. 247. Do you mean each individual? — Yes, sometiinesit is so; generally when they come alone to me, I speak to them, and direct their attention to the different duties of their future life, and I tell them that they will be most happy if they attend zealously to their sacred duties, in the fulfilment of which they will find continual occupation. 248. Are any s])ccial cautions given to them against being drawn aside too much by the temptations of political life ? — I think they have received frequently advice upon that point. 249. On what occasions, and by whom? — Students leaving the College have been advised on this subject by superiors and ])rofessors. I have often spoken to the young priests on this subject. 1 have never spoken publicly of politics. It is a delicate subject when a person considers the state of our country, and the conflicting interests of ])arties- 250. is it a delicate subject to advise them not to be drawn aside too much by politics from their special duties ? — I think not ; and that is done more efficaciously by private advice than by public lectures. 251. You would not consider it improper to advise them generally on the subject of not allowing themselves to be carried away too much into political matters ? — As I have stated I never allude to ]>olitics in my instruction. Prudence and moderation in every thing arc strongly inculcated as virtues which should adorn the character of the minister of God. The inference is easily drawn, that in politics as in every thing else moderation is a virtue, and consequently a duty. I have known young priests who, on leaving our College, were determined to attend solely to their priestly functions, and were led by circumstances into a life of political strife, at variance with their previous inclinations and resolutions. 252. Did you know any tiling of a disposition which, at one time, existed amongst the students to address Mr. John O’Connell on the occasion of his fatlier’s death ? — It was not on the occasion of the father's death, but before his death. It was soon after his visit to the College. 253. Do you recollect any of the circumstances which took place at that time? — I remember that Mr. O'Connell, I think, the day before he left Ireland, came from Dublin with Mr. John O’Connell, and they both dined in the College on that day. Some days after this visit I heard that the students intended to pi’esent an address to Mr. John O’Connell. The President was ill, and the Vice-President was absent, and the duty devolved upon me of preventing the presentation of this address. 1 succeeded. I went to the President and told him all I knew of it. I said to him, “ It is unfortunate that the Vice-Pre.sident is from home, and you are sick ; I have not sufficient authority, but what I have I will make use of to put a stop to this affair.” I made inquiries, and I learned that two students had this document, or address, in their keeping, and that it wns to be sent immediately to Dublin. I sent for the students, I advised them not to send the address, They followed my advice, and all was at an end. 254. Do you recollect whether, on that occasion, anybody applied to the late Archbishop Murray upon the subject, or whether he took any part in preventing such a proceeding? — I did hear that one of the professors spoke to Dr. Murray about it, but that nas after it was stopped. 255. Was any step taken before it was stopped by Archbishop IMurray ? — I do not think that he knew any thing about it before I stopjjed it. 1 am certain he did not. 2 ') 6 . Have you any recollection whether Archbishop Murray sent any intimation to the students of his diocese, that if they continued to take a part in such a proceeding, they would be visited with his displeasure? — Archbishop Murray did write to the President to that effect, but several days after the addi'css was stopped. 257. Were you in the College in 183b or 1837 ? — 1 was. 258. Do you recollect the occasion on which Lord Mulgravc visited the College? — Yes, I do recollect his visit. 259. And there being subsequently a feast ? — fVine was given to the students after dinner on that day. 260. Do you remember any of the circumstances attending it. Do you recollect any thing about Air. O’ConneH’s health being proposed? — I am certain that Air. U’ConneH's health was proposed, but I have no idea of what was said. Wine was given ; and the students came to us all to ask us to go to the refectory. The superiors and j^rofessors went to the refectory. I went there. It was after dinner, as on Christmas Day and St. Patrick’s Day. On that night several chairs were placed for us near the table of the Dunboyne students. The students proposed several healths. Air. O’ConneH’s health was given, but I do not recollect what was said. 261. AVas Dr. Alontague present at the time? — He was. 262. He was then the President, was he not? — Yes. 263. Do you recollect anything of a student named O’Sullivan taking any part? — Yes ; he proposed the health of the professors. He was a very disorderly man. 1 do not know how he became chairman that night. He was refused orders at the end of the year, and left the College for ever, or, to speak more correctly, he was obliged to leave it. 2 I . 2ith October, 1853. Very Rev. M. Gaffney, u.d. Advice to students as to tlieir conduct on the mission. Politics. Intended address by tlie students to Mr. John O’Connell. Lord Mu’grave’s visit — feast in tl.e college on the occasion. 25S MATXOOTII COMMISSION. October, 1853. 20 . Very Eev. M. Gaffney, u.d. Tlie feast on that occasion was not kept up till eleven o’clock, as all the students were at prayer at nine o’clock. Keligious instruc- tion. 264. ATas the President present -when the healths were proposed? — He was, that is. Dr. ilontague. I do not think Dr. Renehan was there on that night. I am not certain whether he was or not. I do not recollect what was said. 265. Do you happen to remember whether Mr. O’Sullivan made a violent speech upon the occasion ? — No, he did not, to my knowledge. He merely proposed the healths of the different professors, as well as I can remember. I am certain that a violent speech from him Avould not have been tolerated. 266. AVas it some one else who proposed Air. O’ConneH’s health ? — I think it was one of the professors who proposed Air. O’Connell’s health. This professor’s health was given, and in returning thanks he proposed Air. O’Connell’s health. 267. Do you remember who that professor was? — I think it was Dr. AATiitehead, as well as I remember. 268. Do you remember Air. O’Sullivan making a speech at all ? — No, except in proposing the healths. 269. I referred to those? — He prefaced all the healths by a sliort speech on the real or supposed qualities of the individuals whose healths he proposed. 270. Did he make speeches on the occasion of proposing the healths? — Tes, just as I have mentioned. 271. Did it contain any strong political allusions? — I do not remember. I think not ; I think the speech had reference chiefly to the qualities of the professors whose healths he proposed. 272. Did it make much talk in the College afterwards? — No; not to my knowledge. 273. Do you recollect at what hour they separated? — I suppose about seven or eight o’clock in the evening. The dinner of tlie students was at three ; they were about half an hour in the refectory ; they retired for a little time from the refectory, and returned to it about five or half past five, to take the wine given them on that day. They had three bottles of wfine for each mess, for eight persons. That was the usual quantity on St. Patrick’s Day and Christmas Day. 274. Can you say whether they could have remained there so late as eleven o’clock without you remembering it ? — Alost certainly not. AA^e never allow students to remain in the refectory on festive nights after eiglit. The servants must have the refectory at their disposal at half-past seven, to prepare the supper. 275. Do you remember whether there was a more than usual appearance of a feast, with oranges and confectionary set out ? — I am quite certain that there was not. For several years after I went to the College there was a great quantity of fruit and cakes got in by the students after dinner on Christmas Day and St. Patrick’s Day. I found this usage established when I first went to the College. The different messes contributed a certain sum on Christinas Day and St. Patrick’s Day, and fruit and cakes were purchased. I persuaded the students to give up this useless and expensive custom, and it has ceased for years past. 276. Upon this occasion do you remember whether there was any entertainment of that kind ■?— I am almost certain that there was not, for this simple reason, that the students had not time to get fruit and cakes from Dublin, as they did not know, to the best of my recollection, that they would get u ine on that evening, until an hour or two after the arrival of Lord Alulgrave. 277. On this festival occasion, when Lord Alulgrave visited the College, do you remember whether this feast was kept up till eleven o’clock or not? — I am certain that it was not. The students were all at night prayer with me at nine o’clock that night, and aU were in bed at ten o’clock. 278. Are you sure that that could not have occurred without you recollecting it ? — Yes; it could not happen without my recollecting it. I am certain that all left the refectory before nine o’clock. Such a departure from order has never occurred in the College since it was established. I would myself be obliged to order the students out of the refectory, if they remained there after nine o’clock. Night prayer, at nine o’clock, is an important rule of the College, from which, on no occasion, is there a departure. 279. Do you happen to know any thing of the way in which meat is procured ? Is it bought in the market ? — The sheep are. 280. You buy the sheep and kill them, do you not? — ATes ; and we bake our own bread. 281. Do you happen to know whether there is any saving out of the £28 a year which is allowed for the students’ commons ? — I really cannot answer that question. AA'hen speak- ing of £28 a year for each student, we must take into consideration that all the servants who attend them must be paid and supported ; and, of course, there are various other expenses, for workmen, and soforth. The washing of the students’ linen is paid for by the bursar ; and as I stated before, with the exception of tea, there is no refectory better sup- plied than ours with excellent food. 282. Are you in the habit of giving religious instructions yourself to the senior or junior house, or both, upon any particular days ? — A^es ; I give a good many instructions on religious matters in the junior and senior houses ; and I have done so, for nineteen years, several times every week. This duty devolves entirely upon the deans. I give two instructions every week to the junior students for half an hour, on AA'ednesday and Sunday evenings, unless when prevented by illness. I have given them a good many instructions this year, though not as many as usual, owing to my bad state of health. I also give the retreat, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 259 preparatory to ordination, every year, during Pentecost weeks. These instructions on Sun- day and Wednesday evenings were intended to lix the attention of young students entering the College for the lirst time, on subjects relating to the sort of life which they had made choice of, after leaving the world to embrace the ecclesiastical state. The spirit of order and regularity, the observance of the rules of the College, assiduity to study, fraternal charity founded on the love of God, humility, Christian modesty, and obedience, are the virtues of an ecclesiastical seminary. The object of these instructions to the juniors is to instil into their hearts the love of all tho.se virtues. I composed an outline of meditation for the junior students, which 1 make them commit to memory, and I call on them every Friday morning to give me an account of it. I then explain it for them, part by part, on Friday mornings, during the whole year. On Saturday mornings I give an instruction to the senior students, sometimes on their future duties as priests, and sometimes on their present obligations. I explain to them, in those instructions, the obligations of the priest- hood ; the necessity of giving good example to the people ; the necessity of preaching the word of God frequently ; the necessity of zeal for the salvation of their flocks ; attention to the sick, and to other duties of their sacred calling. Sometimes 1 have, on Saturday evenings, proposed to them a subject of meditation for the following morning, on some subject taken from the Gospel of the day, or on some festival. 283. Is it a part of your duty as dean, or is it voluntary? — It is my duty, as dean, to give religious instructions to the students, but 1 was not obliged to give as many as I gave ; hence a great number of the instructions were voluntary. The Trustees, some years ago, told me that they feared I would injure my health by giving instructions to the juniors so soon after dinner. They told me to call the junior students together -when 1 wished. 1 said that I considered half-past five o’clock on Sunday, and on Wednesday evenings at the end of recreation, to be the most convenient time for the junior .students to receive those instructions. They then left me at perfect liberty to instruct them at that hour, or at any other I wished. 284. Is that done by any of the other deans besides yourself? — The junior deans do give instructions, but none of those instructions that I have been speaking of. 285. ^Vhat are the instructions that they give them ? — Instructions on some religious subject, on a moral or ecclesiastical virtue, on the festivals of the saints, of Christmas Day, and of St. Patrick’s Day. 28b. But, hitherto, that has not been done by the other deans, except on the occasions of those festivals ? — It has also been done at other times. Hitherto I may say that there was but one junior dean in the College able to perform this duty; the other junior dean was in bad health, and never gave us any assistance in the tvay of instruction. He has left the College, and now we have a good staff, able and willing to instruct the students; and for the future that duty will be performed by all the deans. 287. How does it happen that such necessary instructions as these have not formed part of the system ? — I cannot say. The Trustees, have had, I suppose, confidence in the zeal of the superiors of the College. [ llie Witness wiihdrew!\ 21st October, 1853. Mr. Jacob Owen, examined. 1 . The new buildings at Maynooth v/ere carried out under your superintendence, were they not ? — Partially so, in this way : Mr. Pugin was the architect of the building, but it devolved upon me, on the part of the Board, occasionally to see that the works were properly executed, according to the drawings and specifications that were furnished. This, however, had chiefly reference to tlie advances made, from time to time, to the contractor, which, in the absence of tlie architect, 1 was required to certify. But it comprehended only a very general superintendence, because there was a clerk of the works appointed by Mr. Pugin, under his own control, therefore the officers of the Board of Public Works interfered very little in the matter. 2. Had you any control over the mode of construction to be employed ? — Not in the least. 3. As to the sort of mortar to be used, and the sort of windows to bo let in, whether iron or otherwise ? — Not in the least ; all that was done by the direction of the architect, under the superintendence of his own clerk of the works. 4. Had you occasion, or any ])erson on the part of the Board of Works, to inspect the works, from time to time, as they went on, and, if so, how often? — The general repairs of the old building being under tlie direction of the Board of Works, of course an opportunity was afforded to myself and assistants, occasionally, of inspecting the new buildings. 5. Had you no duty in regard to the new buildings? — Not at all. Perhaps that is too strong an expression ; I have already stated that, being required to certify for the payments to the contractor, in the absence of Mr. Pugin, a general inspection of the work done became necessary, to ascertain the amount of instalment the contractor was entitled to receive. This was done as a matter of convenience, and to prevent the necessity of incurring the expense of Mr. Pugin making special visits for the purpose. 6. When you so certified, had you occasion to look over the buildings ? — Yes, but mainly with a view of ascertaining the quantity and value of the work done. Zith October, 1853. 20 . Very Rev. JI. Galfucy, i>.d. 21 si October, 1853. Mr. Owcu, c.E. tVitiiess’s function in erection of new buildings. Limited to general inspection of work done for ascertaining amount of instal- ments payable. 2 I 2 260 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. ‘Jls? October, 1853. ]\Ir. Owen, c.e. Witness’s opinion of the works. Damp. To wliat attributable. Absence of fire ])l.aces. Want of ventilation. Means of curing. ■WiiKlows. Supply of light. 7. You certified as to the quantity of work that was done ? — Chiefly that. 8. Have you ever examined into the construction, as to laying the stones and mortar? It has been suggested that the water gets in througli the walls, in consequence of there not being a sufficient quantity of mortar between the stones, with a view to the building having a finer appearance. Have you any opinion to offer upon that ? — I have observed ifc very often. I never saw any occasion to coni])lain either of the want or quality of mortar, or any deficiency in the workmanship. I believe the work to be substantially and fairly executed. 9. _ Have you had charge of the buildings since the work was done?— The occasional repairs, and works that had been left unfinished, together with damages by storms, and similar repairs have been done under the direction of the Board’s officers. 10. fV hen you have been there, have you heard complaints from parties living in the College, or from any others, of the condition of the buildings or of the damp ? — I have. I liave heard complaints of the damp coming through the walls, which was manifestly the case. 11. To what do you attribute that state of things? — Partly to the construction. The projections of the buttres.ses on the weather side formed a resistance to the Avet, and that has forced itself into the interior, through the joints of the masonry. 1 he Avails are not, perhaps, so thick as they might have been for a building of that magnitude and height. The Avails are two feet six, and they are of that thickness all the Avay up. I think it is a defect that Avill cure itself. It is a very common thing in masonry of that description, built Avitli limestone and stones of a similar kiiid, for the first two or three years, to admit the Avet through. 12. Is it at all peculiar to that kind of stone? — It is, to all kinds of stone of consider- able density. For instance. Avails built Avith granite generally dry quickly. 13. Do you apprehend that it Avill cure itself in a very short time ? — 1 have no doubt of it, to a great extent ; and this vieAV of it is confirmed by the imju'ovement that appears. 14. From your experience, have you knoAA'u the same thing happen in the beginning, and aftenvards to disappear ? — I have, in a great number of instances. I have no doubt but it Avill eventually become sound and dry as the mortar becomes set. 15. Should you recommend the buildings to be inhabited till it is perfectly dry ? — The new building has for some time, been inhabited. The absence of fires throughout the Avhole building has been a great disadvantage to it. There are no fire-places, and no means to facilitate the evaporation of the Avet ; and I think there has been a defect in not constructing proper flues for ventilation in the apartments generally. In the corridors there are no means provided for heating them, nor in the students’ rooms. The absence of fires has been a great disadvantage to it. 16. Have you considered Avhether any provision could be made for the better ventilating or airing of the buildings? — There is no doubt but it can be done. I am of opinion that it Avill bo found necessary to increase the number of fires, and if not, to have artificial heat, either by hot Avater or steam, or some other mode. 17. When you speak of fires, do you moan in the several bedrooms of the students? — According to the present construction, this is not practicable, the Avhole of the internal partitions being constructed of Avood. It Avas considered as probable that, if the corridors Avere properly heated, that fires in the separate rooms might be dispensed Avith. In the several lunatic asylums built by the Board of Works, fire-places in the corridors have been invariably adopted, and that supersedes the necessity of having fires in each separate room. It is not, perhaps, exactly a parallel case, because one is used for sleeping only, and the students’ rooms are required for occasional reading and sitting-rooms, and, there- fore, a greater degree of heat is necessary than there Avould be in bedrooms. 18. Still they Avould be less likely to be damp, for that very reason? — Yes, the damp would be more quichly evaporated. 1 9. Did you examine the AvindoAvs, to see Avhether any moisture or damp comes in there, wet or rain ? — 1 did. There are some defects in the execution of the Avork, unquestionably. Some of the glazing is not so carefully done as it ought to be ; for Avhen, on the occasion of its being complained of, I had occasion to examine the glazing, I found that I could, in some instances, put my knife through, between the frame of the AvindoAv and the glass. 20. Do you think iron frames and cut stone avcII calculated to keep out wet? — With reference to this question, I beg to refer the Commissioners to the supplementary memorandum, Avhich I beg to submit. 21. Do you think that a AA’indow is a dangerous part of a house to take fire? — The su]q)lemcntary paper Avill explain my vieAVS on this point. 22. The part that is then broken is not the frame, so much as the glass? — Yes, it is, generally. 1 suppose there must have been some other reason for using iron. ( Vide sup- plementary paper ) 23. Perhaps economy? — The supplementary paper Avill afford full information regarding the AvindoAvs. 24. IlaA'e you considered, at all, the sufficiency of the Avindows, AA’ith regard to their letting in sufficient air and light for comfort ? — They are casemented Avindows, and there is sufficient light and air in the students’ rooms, Avhich are the parts presumed to be referred to. 25. And generally in the building ? — It never occurred to me that there was a deficiency of light in any portion of the building. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2G1 20. Or air? — Nor of air, "cnerally. As to tlic refcctorv, I sliould say that it was an ovorsiglit not to liavc ])roviclecl the means necessary for carrying olf the diluvium that arises from a large numher asscmhled ami dining in the same room. 27. Do you anticipate that the annual repairs of tlie huilding will he expensive? — I do not consider tliat the annual maintenance will he greater than wliat a corresijonding quantity of huilding, similarly occupied, would cost. The cpiestion refers, 1 presume, to the new huilding. 28. Will they l>e more exj)ensive tlian for the old huilding, in ])ro])ortion to their size ? — ■*! should think not ; 1 sec no reason for it. The huilding, generally, is substantially con- structed. 29. Could you give a probable guess at what would keep the new and tlie old hidldings in repair, or separately ? — I shonld think that it would range from £ 1,000 to £l,.o00 to keej) the whole huilding. 1 think £l,.500 would he, ])erhaps, the minimum amount for the new and old hidldings. Thci'e is a great deal of misconstruction in the old huilding, which necessarily increases the expense ; and the repairs that had been performed before they came under our Board have been just what was absolutely neces.sary, without considering what was best to he done for substantial permanence. I might mention that, in some instances, we found a gutter forty feet long without a drip, and the conscipience has been that the influence of cold and heat caused an expansion and contraction, so that the lead was torn asunder. 30. You have now, by Act of Farliament, the charge of the buildings as a Board, have you not? — 1 believe not. The only charge that the Board have had, with reference to the maintenance, was given by an annual estimate, which estimate is submitted to Barliament ; and it was, 1 understand, to the extent of that estimate that the charge of maintenance devolved upon the Board of I’uhlic Works. 1 understand that tlie buildings are the property of the Board, and are transferred to them for maintenance, exactly in the same way as the Dublin buildings. 31. Wliat is the practice of the Board of AVorks with regard to such buildings? Do you make repairs before they are put in the estimate, and include them in the estimate for the following year? — Never, if we can avoid it ; hut if damage is likely to result from delay, the Board make the repairs ; but if they are to any extent, they do not even do that without the sanction of the Treasury. It is the constant practice of the Board to refer to the Treasury any unforeseen circumstances that create an unsanctioned cxjiense. 32. And the Treasury then advances the money, and j)uts it in the estimates for the ensuing year ? — They order the Board to provide for it in the estimates of the ensuing year, and pay out of funds at their temporary disposal. 33. If the roof of a house were blown off, you would communicate with the Treasury, and add that to the estimate for the following year, would you not ? — Yes, and a variety of things constantly occurring, not of that character. For instance, on the establishment of the Income Tax department, new offices were required, and the Board having no funds to provide them, an order from the Treasury was applied for and obtained for doing the works, and to include the cost in the next year's estimate. A large portion of the furni- ture for the new buildings at Maynooth had been paid for out of the funds belonging to the College ; and although the Act mentions their furniture, the Board understood it to compi'chend the proper furnishing; but on a reference to the Treasury, it was found that it was not intended that that should he the case. 34. What sum do you think will be required to ])ut the new buildings in a proper and efficient condition for the reception and the health}' lodging of the students and profes- sors?. — That is a question that admits of a very large margin, because it would require to be considered wliat is comprehended in an efficient state. For instance, I might consider a great deal tliat was necessary witli regard to ventilation, and warming, and so on. On this subject, however, I beg to refer to the supplementary memoranda. 35. Whatever is necessary for the health and reasonable comfort of young men in the position of gentlemen studying for orders, confining tlie question to the existing new buildings, the three sides of the quadrangle, avoiding damp and every thing unwholesome ? — I should hardly know what it would comprehend. Sometimes a building will be subject to damp ; and I might err if I were to give an opinion. The supplementary memoranda will probably afford satisfiictory information on this point. 36. Do you think that stoves could be introduced with safety, so as to warm the corridors sufficiently ? — They could he introduced, and with tolerable safety, on the ground floor and a portion of the one-pair floor, but with such a variety of young men, not under, perhaps, the most strict control, it is not, in ray judgment, a system that is desirable to adopt. From subsequent consideration of the construction of the building, 1 feel it right to state, that stoves could not be placed in the upper corridors without risk. 37. Does it occur to you whether gas might be used for the purpose of warming the building ? — I doubt it very much. I do not think that we have had sufficient experience of it to justify its adoption on any large scale : besides which, flues are necessary for gas, to carry off the foul air. Hot water, I consider, is the safest, the simplest, and, in the end, the least expensive. 38. Do you think that it could, with hot water machinery, be kept dry ? — A"es, so far as the corridors ai'e concerned, and it might be extended to the rooms if it were necessary. 39. AVould the simple warming of the corridors by hot water, be itself a means botli of ventilating and drying the dormitories? — Not that alone: it would require a provision being made for ventilation, probably with Hues. I always like to provide flues for efficient 21s< OctohcT, ISj3. Mr. Owen, c.k. Of air. Cost of repairs. Duty of Bo.ard of Works as to building Their practice. Expense of putting new buildings in efEcient condition. Means of heating stoves. Gas. Hot water. 2G2 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION 2Is< October, 1853. Mr. Owen, c.e. Fire places. Window sashes. ventilation; especially in large rooms, sucli as the refectory, it is very important to have an efficient dranglit ; it is not merely openings in the windows that would be sufficient for that purpose. 40. The question is, whether merely warming the passages along the dormitories would bo sufficient to dry and warm the dormitories themselves? — The dormitories being chiefly used as sleeping-rooms, it is quite possible to make the corridors reservoirs of warm air for the supply of the dormitories. 41. That would be a considerable improvement, wonld it not? — Unquestionably; as you raise the temperature in the corridors, every room opening out of them would be benefited. 42. There would be a rush of warm air into the cold rooms, which would contribute to warm and dry the chambers ? — Yes. 43. l)o you think that it would not be practicable, without diminishing the efficiency of stoves, to put such a guard to them as would prevent any indiscreet young man from touching them ? — It woidd, but it may be considered an unsightly thing ; and I am very much inclined to think that the ordinary stoves would not be of much advantage in large corridors like these. I think the more efficient system would be by hot air or hot water pipes, with a high chimney for the extraction of noxious air that may be generated in a building where a number of young men are remaining for a long time. 44. Do you think that fire-places could be put into the corridors at present ? — Yes, there is no doubt of it, on the ground floor and part of the one-pair floor. 45. AVhat do you think would be the expense of excluding the damp, and warming the corridors with hot water, and making the necessary improvements in the ventilation of the corridors and the refectory ? — It is not very easy to consider, but it would cost a good deal. 46. Would £2,000 do it ? — I think it w'ould, fully. On more mature consideration, I think the cost would not be less than £3,000. 47. Not much less? — I think not; it is a very largo building, and inconveniently circum- stanced for heating, which increases the expense. 48. Do you think that the expenditure of such a sum in making the buildings more permanently stanch would I’educe in any manner the annual expense of the repairs? — I think not; it seems quite a separate consideration. I have before stated that, with the exception of leakages through the windows, the building wfill, of its own accord, become quite stanch, so that no effect will be produced on the cost of maintenance. I do not apprehend that the annual repairs, when the building is once put in condition, will be high, for such an extent of building. Of course, as to fittings, furniture, and things of that sort, there is a great deal of wear and tear, for such a number of persons. 49. Do you think that shutters could be put to the windows, without inconvenience or a great danger of fire ? — Certainly they could, and they would aid to promote the comfort of the rooms. 50. Taking every thing into consideration, do you think it W’ould be desirable to substi- tute wooden sashes? — It w'ould take a large expense to substitute wmod for iron sashes; they would improve the rooms in some instances ; but, from a recent inspection, I am of opinion that it is not necessary to incur so large an expense to substitute wood for iron. 51. Do you think that iron can be made stable, considering its tendency to shrink in very wet weather ? — Speaking of iron as a building material, it docs not alter its dimen- sions appreciably for any known temperature in our climate, I think the sashes could be improved to such an extent as would render them, perhaps, unobjectionable. As to the defects in the glazing, that is a separate que.stion, and the remedy of this is simple and Dampnessofstudents’ sleeping apartments. Of Vice-President’s apartments. easy. 52. As to the other defects, how do you intend to improve them ’? — By raising the inside, so as to create an obstruction to the passage of the water from the outside to the inside. These rooms are battened, and if the wet comes, from any cause, through the windows, it w'ould find its way, perhaps, between the wall and its plastering. 53. Do you think that you could remedy that, or that there is any danger of that wet keeping in the wall and getting round the iron? — It is desirable that the wet should be prevented, as far as possible, coming inside the walls. Of course, where the stones arc p>orous or the work defective the water passes through the walls ; that is not very easily to be remedied ; but that is not the case in the present instance. 54. Do you think that it can be remedied while the present sashes are there? — For my own part, I should not recommend that those sashes should be rejected, with a view to substitute wooden ones. 55. Still, you think that the walls can be made stanch ? — Yes, I think they will become so in progress of time. 56. Are the students’ sleeping apartments damp? — Some of them are ; some have been injured from the same cause. 1 have chiefly reference to the students’ rooms, but they are now fairly habitable. 57. Do you know the Vice-President’s apartments ? — Yes, I do. 58. What is your opinion with respect to them? — Those have suffered greatly, perhaps more than any other portion of the building. It is difficult to say what has been the cause ; I do not think that it arises from any mal-construction ; I have examined it with some care, on one or two occasions ; it is, however, much improved w’ithin the last two years. 59. Shall you consider it your duty, as connected with the Board of Works, to have an estimate of the expense of putting those in a proper habitable state ? — If called upon to do so, I should prepare an estimate for repaii’ing the defects. It would be desirable to have a careful inspection ; and, perhaps, so far as the Vice-President’s rooms are concerned, it MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2G3 might ho desirable to substitute wood saslies for those that open. Tlic iron sashes are not so nicely fitted as is soinctiincs done. Good iron sashes recpiire to he very accurately cast, in order to make them etlicient for the purpose ; but, on the wliolc, tlic iron sashes are fairly executed. 60. Tiiey contract in cold weatlier, when tliey should keep out the wet ? — I do not think that the contraction of the metal sashes is tlie cause of the defect tliat is comjdaincd of. The surface is too small for the heat and cold to act upon to any perceptible extent. 61. Of course, in any thing that you might ]>ropose, you would consider that it could bo done without adding to the prcjnium of the policy of insurance? — Not in the least, if the system of heating by hot water bo adopted. I think hot-air stoves may subject tlie build- iug to an increased premium. 62. Do you think that the present house is more than oi-dinarily liable to fire, in conse- quence of the wooden partitions between the rooms? — The absence of fire-places renders it less liable to danger, of course, but from the ])eculiar construction of the building, it is more than ordinarily subject to total destruction should a fire take ])lace. 63. Then, with the alterations which you propose, there would still be no greater danger of fire ? — A proper system of heating with hot water would not, in my judgment, increase the insurance, from any increase of risk. 64. From your experience, looking at them now, and knowing what the buildings cost, was there value given for the money laid out? — I have no doubt about it; it always appeared to me to be a very low contract. The builder, perhaps, laboured under some inconvenience, and a little loss, in consequence, in the outset, but when he got fairly to his work he carried it on very judiciously. 1 am quite satisfied that there is full value for the work. 65. It could not be done for any thing like that amount now, could it ? — No, it could not ; the cost of materials has largely increased ; the only exception would be the walling stone, which is raised on the ground. 66. How much do you think was added to the expense of that building by giving it an architectm'al appearance, beyond what a building of the same size would have cost if it had been perfectly plain ? — The style of the architecture itself is so plain and inexpensive, that I think the cost of the same quantity of building would not be materially diminished; but if a different style had been adopted, they would have been much more convenient, for the same sum. I do not think the peculiar style added much to the expense, but the attics and the upper rooms are not so convenient as they might have been, I think, if a different style had been adopted. 67. Have you made an estimate of what sum would be required to put the library in a proper condition, with shelves for the reception of books ? — 1 have not. My son has made an estimate that it would take about £1,000 to doit plainly in oak; but I beg to refer to the estimate and supplementary paper. 68. Speaking of the mode of doing it, would there be bookcases standing out from the wall between the windows? — Just so. I apprehend, the proper way in a building of that description would be, to have a projection on each side, with a passage in the centre ; that would not only economize the room, but increase the privacy of each student, and prevent damp to the books. 69. Has your attention been called to the infirmaiy, in its present state, in the senior department? — I know it extremely well ; it always appeared to me to be a building not worth incurring much expense upon, beyond what was requisite to make it temporarily habitable. There are two infirmaries — one for the seniors, and another for the juniors ; both of them are inconvenient, hut one of them is substantially a good building, and, with a little alteration and improvement, might be made exceedingly efficient. 70. That is the infirmary for the junior department, is it not ? — Yes ; and as to the other, I think it was always intended to remove it ; but when the College was placed under the care of the Board of Works, it was in that dilapidated state that it was deemed not worth spending money on it. 71. Does it appear to you to be totally unfit for its j)urposc? — Yes ; I think it is not at all suited for its purpose. 72. Are you aware whether a new infirmary formed a part of the original plan ? — I think not ; my recollection is not very clear upon that. 73. In speaking of the original plan, the question assumes that it was a detached build- ing from the quadrangle ? — It ought to be detached, and would necessarily be so. The present one is not in a situation the most convenient for the purpose. 74. Are you acquainted with the state of the drainage of the College? Has that come under your supervision at all? — Efficient drains have been made for the new building, and I believe there is no deficiency in the drainage in the old building. The Board have constructed new drains and repaired the existing drains, from time to time. 75. Is the sewerage of the building in a j)erfect state ? — It is. 76. You do not think that any of the damp of the existing building is at all connected with defective drainage ?■— I believe not in the slightest degree. 77. Are you aware whether, in the new buildings, there are any arrangements made in a room, or other convenience, for the purpose of airing the linen of the students ? — 1 do not think there is any arrangement made. I believe there is no laundry in the house. 78. The linen is washed out of the house, is it not? — Yes. 79. It was stated before the Commissioners of Inquiry, on a previous occasion, that the damp of the building, combined with the linen not being aired, was productive of 2Is< October, 1853, ~ZL Mr. Owen, c.e. Liability to fire. Value of work done. E.xpense not increased by archi- tectural appearance of building. E.xpense of fitting up library. State of infirmary. Drainage. Sewerage. Arrangements for airing linen. I 204 MAYxooTii co:\r:\iissioN. 2\st October, 1853. Consumption and other cliest complaints in the College. Have any means, that you know of, been taken to counteract that in tlie new building? — No. I never heard of it; but it Mr. Owen, c.e. is unquestionable that it would be very desirable to have a room adapted for that purpose ot airing the linen ; and it might be done, in conjunction with heating the corridors with hot water, at a small additional ex’pense, if that system should bo ado])ted. 80. 1 ou think that there would be no dilliculty in providing accommodation of that sort? — Not the smallest. 81. Are you aware what the accommodation is in the infirmary for the junior department, which you say is capable ot being put into a satisfactory state ? — I cannot say from recol- lection. 82. Are you capable, at all, of forming an estimate of what the expense would be for an infirmary tor the senior department? — It would be desirable that I should have some data upon Avhich to form an opinion. ^ 83. It has been stated that there are very often thirty students in the infirmary ? — - Neither ot the existing infirmaries are capable of properly accommodating that number. There must be two or three in a room. [ 'The Witness loit/uh-eio.'] IMaynootii College. Me.moranddm on the state of the neAv College, and the several works required to complete and finish it. The three sides of the quadrangle of the new College have now been completed about three yeans, and have been in ])artial occupation for about half that time. The amount of accommodation required, was so greatly disproportioned to the funds allocated to the purpose, that although the several buildings, and all the fittings, Avere designeil in a style of the severest simplicity, the Board have been unable to do more than erect a portion of the original design, without furniture or fittings of any kind. It is hut right to observe, that the materials and workmanship of the buildings are all unexception- able — the contract having been fairly and conscientiously carried out, and at a very low rate. The defects observable in the building are of three kinds, viz. — 1st. Such as arise immediately from the nature of its materials. 2nd. Such as arise directly from the exigencies of its style. 3rd. Such as can only be charged to the insufficiency of the funds proA'ided. 1st. Of the defects which arise from the nature of the materials of Avhich the new buildiims are O constructed, the first and greatest, ])erhaps, is the damp in the external walls ; this is to be attributed entirely to the stone of Avhich the walls are constructed. It ha{>peus in very feAv instances that walls built of limestone become thoroughly dry until some years have elapsed, the time varying Avith the thickness of the walls, and other circumstances ; and such a result may always be ex]rected from the limited porosity of the stone. In the ])rescut building, the damp from this source only appears in isolated spots, where it is not concealed by the battening ; this, however, is an evil of a purely evanescent character and which Avill lessen and gradually disapjrcar ; and although disappearing, in the present instance, more slowly than in ordinary cases, from the very few fires in the building, is yet considerably less than it has been, and letetl, viz : — kitchen, scullery, hake-honse, pastry room, delft and glass pantries, larder and bread store, and knife room, and also the steward’s room, and ]>rofessors’ servants’ room j some of these have been j)artially fitted up, but all are more or less incomplete. The estal)lislnng an cHicient system of heating and ventilating every part of the new building will add materially to the comfort of its occupants. The general system which I think should be adopted, should be that of using hot water pipes to warm a current of air admitted into each aj)artnicnt, by one or more a])erturcs, with apertures of similar area for the eiuissiou of cold or consumed air, communi- cating with tubes in the partitions, leading into a rarelicd funnel, whence they are discharged into the air ; for this pur])ose it will be necessary to erect a furnace room, and a tall chimney for both smoko and foul air. The adoption of any system of heating and ventilation, such as I have been describing, will be attended with miudi more trouble and exj>ense than if it formed a portion of an original j)lan, and its working parts may be more obvious, and, in some respects, unsightly ; but it would be attended with most beneficial effect. It formed part of Mr. rugin’s design, to construct gas works for the supply of the College. I do not think the site selected by him to be most advantageous. I should prefer placing the works in the present stable-yard, with reference to the supply of coals, comparative remoteness from observation, and the prevailing winds. Tlie use of gas would be attended with great economy, and comparative safety from risks of fire. According to Mr. I’ugin’s original design, as shown on one of the drawings submitted, the fourth side of the (juadrangle was to have been composed of a church and exhibition hall ; but objections of a sanitary nature having been urged against completely enclosing the f[uadrangle, Mr. Pugin intended to finish the ends of the east and west panes by blocks of buililing, showing gables respectively similar to, and balancing those of, the refectory and ])rayer hall — one of these blocks would naturally contain the exhilntion hall. The cloisters should be extended to the church, which Mr. Pugin’s idea was to build on the site of the present senior infirmary, allowing thereby sufficient light and air to ]>enetrate the (quadrangle- Tiie church, as designed by Mr. Pugin, consisted of a chapel and ante-chaqiel, which may be more familiarly described as a large choir, and a small nave, sc{)aratcd by a rood loft, with small chapels and sacristies attached. Ilis idea seems to have been derived from the ancient conventual and collegiate churches, where the presence of a large number of clergy, and the conseiquently increased scale of the ceremonial observanees rendered a very large and comparatively mioccu{)ied area necessary, in the ])ortion of the edifice specially appropriated for them. Carrying out this idea, which seems to be very appropriate, he has allotted by far the greater portion of the available space to the Clergy and Students. Assuming those as the |U'inciples on which the church is to be constructed, and that it will require the area and proportions assigned to it by Mr. Pugin, the expenditure resent senior infirmary, which has been felt by me, ever since the Board have had charge of these buildings, to be so exceedingly unsuited to its purqjose, from dampness, bad situation, bad aspect, and the absence of any thing like an appearance of comfort, that I have refrainecl from recommending any improvement to it, beyond casual repairs, and such fittings as were indis- qjensably necessary for its at all fulfilling its qnirpose, in the hoq)c that funds might be procurable for taking it down, and erecting an Infirmary more suitable. The junior infirmary is well situated, and in qiassably good condition ; and I tiiink the new senior infirmary might be attached to it, so as to have the greatest facility of using only one staff of nurses, one kitchen, (fcc., and save trouble and time to the medical attendants, and yet keeq> the two classes of students entirely separate. No vote having been passed in the qiarliamentary session of 1852 and 1853 for the current req)airs of the building, the Board have been com])clled to stoqi all works entirely — having fortunately had funds nearly ade(quate to complete the repairs of damages caused by the storms of Christmas, 1852, and the succeeding spring ; but all the series of progressive improvements to the old building have been qmt a stoqi to ; and it is jjresumable that the College funds have not proved adequate to the cost of maintaining the building.® so suddenly thrown on them, and many qtortions of the old building.3 were at the time of their bding taken up by the Board, rapidly qirogressing to that degree of dilapidation when they could last no longer. These were gradually being restored under the direction of the Board, and, as might be expected from the inadequacy of the College funds, much more must be done in the next year, if the Board shall be authorized to resume their charge of these repairs, than would have been required had their operations been uninterrupted, and, conse(quently, the item for current repairs, in the estimate which I submit to the Commissicners, is largely above what has hitherto, and may be, exqiected to be hereafter, the average cost of maintaining, and qiartially restoring, the buildings. I sub’.nit herewith an estimate of the sums required for the various works reported on above, not prepared from actual designs for those works, but which, from my exqjcrience of similar works at this College and elsewhere, I am satisfied will prove about what the works will cost at the q)reseut time. 2Is< October, 1853. Mr. Owen, c.e. J. OWEX. 2Cth January, 1854. Note. — I have visited Maynooth College this day, and insq>ected the whole of the new building, which I had not visited for two years before ; and I have much satisfaction in stating, that the im- provement by the disaq>pearance of damq) on the surface of the walls, is such as fully to justify the opinion stated in the foregoing part of this qtaper, as to its ultimate, if not speedy, disaqjpearance, Indeed there are not more than three or four students’ rooms in the building that are affected by damj) so as to render them unfit for occupation — heat and ventilation only are required to render these apartments comfortably habitable. J. Owen. 2 m 31st January, 1854. 266 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. 2\tt October, 1833. "iT Mr. Owen, c.e. •Ztith October, 1853. Mr. Galvin, Divinity Student. Witness from Galway. His education before entering Maynooth. Mathematics. English. Entrance Examination. Greek. Latin. Royal College of St. Patrick, Maynooth. Estimate of the probable cost of completing the various buildings of the &c., and also for maintaining the several buildings to 31st March, For new infirmary for senior pupils, to be a plain building, and attached to present junior infirmary, ........ „ A church, as proposed by Mr Pugin, 250 feet by 40 feet ; side walls, 76 feet high ; oak stalls, &e., £10,000, and furniture, £5,000, (14 altars,) . „ Cloisters, and finishing ends of present buildings, .... „ Presses, and fitting up library, ...... „ Refectory, six tables and forms, £18 ; pulpit, £12, .... „ Fittings for delft jiantry, £20 ; glass pantry, £20 ; larder and bread store, £10 ; knife room, £10; steward’s room, £30; professors’ servants’ room, £50; pastry room, £50 ; kitchen and seullery, £50, .... „ Fittings for study halls, lecture room.s, ic., ..... „ Ditto for students’ rooms, shutters, sliding sashes, covering stone mullions, ,, Heating and ventilating new College, ...... „ Erecting gas works and interior fittings, ..... Painting, papering, and tinting walls, new College, Current repairs, .... £1,000 0 0 2,000 0 0 new College, 1855. £ s. d. 1,000 0 0 15,000 0 0 5,000 0 0 1,250 0 0 30 0 0 250 0 0 250 0 0 1,500 0 0 3.000 0 0 2.000 0 0 £29,280 0 0 3,000 0 0 £32,280 0 0 26th January, 1854. J. Owen. 20th October, 1853. Mr. Coleman Galvin, examined. 1. How many years liave you been in the College of Majmooth? — Seven years. 2. Did you enter the lowest Plumanity Class? — Yes. 3. From what county did you come? — From Galway. 4. Where did you receive your previous education ? — At Loughrea. 5. Was it a day-school or a boarding-school? — A day-school chiefly. G. What was paid to the master of the school for your instruction? — I don’t recollect what was paid. 7. Did your father live at Loughrea? — No, about six miles from it. 8. Did you go in each day to school? — No, I lodged in Loughrea. 0. Did you reside wdth a relation, or did your father pay for your lodgings elsewhere? — ]\Iy father paid for ray lodgings. 10. Do you know how much it cost him each year? — I do not. 11. Were there any boarders in the school at which you were? — There were a few in my time. 12. How' many boys altogether w'ere there at the school ? — I think, on an average, about forty. 13. Was the school exclusively for persons intended for the ecclesiastical orders? — Not exclusively. 14. Were you taught mathematics thei’e? — I w'as taught some mathematics. 15. To what extent? — Not much — a small shai’e of algebra. IG. Were you taught Euclid? — Not in the school. 17. Before you entered the College, were you taught any of Euclid? — No. 18. Were you examined in English on your entrance into the College? — Yes; but merely one or tw'o cpiestions. 1[). Were there any lessons in Engli.sh given at the school you were in at Loughrea ? — Yes. 20. In what manner were the lessons given? — I w'as taught English gi’ammar and English composition. 21. How many ju'ofessors examined you on the occasion of your entrance into the Col- lege? — I was examined by Dr. Renehan and Dr. O’Hanlon, in the presence of the majority of the superiors and ])rofessors. 22. What Greek had you read before you entered the College? — St. John’s Gospel, Lucian’s Dialogues, and some books of Homer’s Iliad. 23. Was it Stock’s Lucian or Walkei’’s? — Walker’s. 24. How many books of Homer had you read? — Eight books. 25. Had you read any of Zenophon? — ’No. 2G. Was that all the Greek you had read? — Yes. 27. What Latin books had you read? — .1 read Virgil, Sallust, Horace, Livy, and Cicero. 28. Had you read the wdiole of Virgil ? — Six or eight books. 29. Had you read the whole of Horace? — Yes. SO. The Odes and all ? — Yes. 31. The Art of Poetry? — Yes. 32. What part of Cicero did you read? — The whole of the Orations. 33. Did you read Cicero T)e Offtciisl— No. 34. What part of the course have you reached at present in your com’se of Dogmatic Theology? — I road the Religion tract at present — the course varies. 35. Have you rea;l the treatise “ J)e Ecclesia " yet ? — Yes, as much as w'e w'ere able to get through in the time allotted for it. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2G7 3G. Docs the question in the Treatise “ De Ecclcsia " arise of' the distinction between temporal and spiritual power? — It docs. 37. Do you reTueml)er Avhether or not, that portion of the course which comprises the instruction as to the obligation of the oath of allegiance, or as to the temporal j)OAver of the Foj)e, has yet come under your consideration? — 1 do; and I remember, also, that the profes- sor had not time enough to treat it as fully as he coidd Avish. 38. Has it been resen ed for that j)art of the course in Avhich the i)rofcssor is to instruct you during the remaining part of the pivsent year'? — I don't think that it has hecn formally resei'A’ed for this year, for this year has a sufHcient shai’c of ucaa' matter for itself. IloAVCYcr, the Professor of Fourth Year’s DiA inity generally makes the best use of AAdiatcA^er spare time he commands, by lecturing on some to})ics AA’hich ajipcar to him not to luiA’C been sufficiently discussed during the j)reA’ious coui’se. 31). When did you ])ass through that j>art of the course Avhlch AA'ould natiirally have been occupied upon this subject? — In my second year’s Theology. 40. Do you remember that part of the True tut us, de Ecclcdu,, by Dr. Delahogue, Avliich relates to the temporal poAA’er of the Poj)e? — Yes. 41. Do you recollect Avhether or not that part of the tract formed a portion of the teach- ing on that subject? — I knoAv that Ave had lectures on that subject, but time did not permit the professor to treat the subject as fully as he treated the matter in the commencement of the tract. 42. Who Avas the ])rof’essor aa'Iio taught it? — Dr. Crolly. 43. Was that in your first, second, or third year? — In my second year. 44. The year before last? — Yes. 45. Do you recollect, generally speaking, AAdiat is the doctrine, in a fcAV Avords, that is held Avith regard to the temporal poAver of the Pope? — So far as I can recollect uoav, I think it is held there that the Pope has no temporal poAver from Christ himself, and that it is through the grant of princes that he obtained that poAver. 46. No temporal poAA’er direct or indirect? — At least direct. At any rate, I have heard that there is merely congruity that he should liaA^e it, considering his ])osition, that the Pope shoidd have temporal poAA^er, but he has not had it from Christ himself. 47. Yon knoAv that the Pope is himself a temporal sovereign in his OAvn states? — Yes ; and it is congruous and fitting that he should be so, though not necessary. 48. When you said that there aa'us a congruity in his liaA'ing temporal poAver, did that apply to his poAver in his oaaui dominions, or his poAver oA’er other countries? — I think it applies to his jiOAA'er OA'er other coAintries, although he has it not. 49. Were you taught that it aa’us desirable that he should ha\"e temporal poAver in other countries ? — I Avas taught that it Avas desirable some time in the middle ages, but that the contrary was desirable noAV. 50. Did you hear any teaching upon that subject from any body except Dr. Crolly ? — Yes, from Dr. Russell. 51. Did you receiA-e instruction from any professor upon the subject of the temporal poAA-er of the Pope, except Dr. Crolly or Dr. Russell? — No 52. Are you sure of that? — I am. 53. Did Dr. Russell enter upon that subject? — He did 54. Did he enter into those cases Avherein the temporal poAver has occasionally been in conflict Avith the sj)iritual poAA'er of the Pope ? — He did. 55. What })arts of Ecclesiastical History haAm you hoard lectured upon by Dr. Russell? — He commenced Avith the very beginning of Ecclesiastical History. 5G. DoAvnto Avhat period has he brought the history? — To the tAAmlfth century. 57. Is it the practice in the Theological Class for the professor to state the doctrines AA’hich are held on both sides, and then to state to yoAi the doctrine Avhich he himself holds ? — It is. 58. Do you remember Avhether it Avas Avhen telling you Avhat Avas stated on both sides upon the question of the temporal poAver, that you heard it stated that there Avas a congruity in the Pope ha wing temporal poAA-er ? — I think it aaus in stating both sides of the question ; in fact, as to that Amry congruity, I do not distinctly remember AA'hat AA’as held at all. 59. Do you remember Avhether yon Avere advised to abstain from reading certain matters until the termination of the course, AAdien you Avere about to take holy orders? — Yes. 60. What AA'ere those matters ? — The matters connected Avith our sixth and ninth j)rece])ts. 61. You mean the “Non Machaberis”? — Yes. 62. Did you receiAm any instruction in your AA'hole course upon the composition of a sermon ? — No instrnction except the criticisms on the sermons deliA'ered by the students every Sunday, at Avhich there is a professor or a superior attending, Avho calls upon another student to criticise, after AAdiich the professor giA'es lus OAAm opinion on the sermon. These criticisms contain a good deal of useful instruction on the composition of the sermons. 63. Have you Avritten a sennon yourself ? — Yes. 64. JMore than one'? — I ha\'e Avritten two. 65. Did they occupy you long in the composition, or Iioaa' long AA’cre you about them? — F or about a fortnight it occupied all the time that I could conA'eniently take fi’om my other studies. 66. What sort of books are used as aids to the composition of sermons ? — The most approA’ed books are Fenelon, Liguori, and Massillon. A good many haA’e recourse to Abbe Macarthy’s sennons. 67. They take as models certain Avell knoAvn sermons? — Yes. 68. Do they take the ideas frmn them, and then rcAATite them? — Yes; some do. 2 m2 20th October, ISSa. Mr. Galvin, Iliviuity Student. Teaching in May- nooth as to spiritual and temporal i)OAver. Temporal power. Teaching by profes- sor of ecclesiastical history. Portion of moral theology deferred till termination of course. Instruction in com- position of sermo»s. Sermons preached by students. 268 ^^lAYNOOTII COMMISSION. 20th October, 1853. Mr. Galvin, Divinity Student. Criticisms on. Value of. Teaching on, in English Class. Instruction in art of catechising. Infirmary. "Want of accommoda- tion in. Dissatisfaction of students witli medi- cal attendance. '2\st October, 1853. Mr. O’Connor, Divinity Student. ■Witness from Sligo. Ilis previous educa- tion. 69. Does tlie student choose the subject of his otvn sermon? — The custom is that each student takes his text from the Gosjtel or Epistle of the day, tvliichever he pleases. 70. Then he tikes a sermon 5x111011 has been composed on that subject, and takes the ideas, and composes a sermon himself ? — Perhaps some do ; but numbers, I do believe, compose sermons ivithout having recourse to any other sermon or book for the occasion. 71. IIoiv long does the criticism last? — Not more than ten minutes; sometimes five. 72. AVhat kind of criticism is it; do you think that much instruction is given by it? — Some of the professors criticise sermons more severely than others. Dr. M'liitehcad in his criticisms, gives very excellent instructions. 7o. Ujjon the 5vhole, does it appear to you, that there is much instruction conveyed by these criticisms? — 1 do not think that there is as much as I could ivish. 74. Do you think that you 5vere much helped in the composition of sermons by them? — Very little indeed. 75. M as there anything taught ujion that subject when you were in the English Class? — Yes; but I'ery little to be of any practical adiantage. We ivere taught that a regular dis- course of any kind should consist of certain parts. We ivere shoivii hoiv these jiarts should be arranged amongst themselves ; we ivere shoivn also the styles that suited these difterent Jiarts, but got no instruction on the selection of the matter ; nor how to deduce a sermon from a given text. 76. You ivere not taught anything further than that with reference to the composition of a sermon? — Nothing more. 77. 'Were illustrations draw n for you in the English course from different well knoivn ser- mons, or remarkable sermons, as models? — Yes ; as samjiles of eloquence or good comjiosition. 78. ^Yere you taught anything ivith a vieiv to actjuiring a facility in gii ing catechetical instruction? — I never recollect anything in the College of that nature. 79. You never were exercised yourself or practised in it? — Never. SO. Was any instruction given to you as to the mode of conveying catechetical instruc- tion? — Yes, I have heard the Senior Dean, in the course of his lectures, give some slight instruction on that point, namely, that priests should use the greatest simplicity in the style and manner of their instructions to the fiiithful. 81. Has your health at all suffered from the course of study you ha^'e pursued? — Yes, very much ; and the health of the students is very much injured. The students study very hard ; there is an immense ]>ressure upon them. I think that the students very often suffer very much from the hard study there. 82. Do you think that they ha,ve sustained any injury from the damp of the building? — I think they have. 83. IlaA^e you been yourself in the Infirmary from illness? — Yes. 84. flow long ? — I have been there more than a fortnight lately. 85. Did you find a want of accommodation there ? — There neyer ivas good accommodation there. 86. Did you e^'er sleep there? — Yes. 87. Who attended you? — The Doctor attends there daily. 88. Were you satisfied ivitli his attendance? — No; and the students are by no means satis- fied with his attendance. 89. On w'hat grounds are they dissatisfied? — The grounds are, in my opinion, that there are se^'eral instances of persons becoming seriously ill ; and it is the opinion of the students that that arises fi’om a 5vant of knowledge on the part of the Doctor. In fact there is no serious case that must not be referred to Dr. Corrigan ; and the students generally believe that that is all owing to w ant of skill on the part of the Doctor that attends them at present. \_Tlie Witness wit]idreic.~\ Ekiday, 21st October, 1653. Mr. Thomas O'Connor, examined. 1. You are the senior student of what class? — Of the first year’s divines, that is, of the Junior Divinity Class. 2. Wlien did you enter into your class of divinity? — This year. 3. Where did you come from? — Ercm the neighbourhood of Sligo. 4. Wdiat is your age? — I think about twenty-five. 5. When did you enter Maynooth? — In the year 1849, at the commencement of that academical year. 6. In ivhat class did you enter? — The Humanity Class. 7. The lowest class? — Yes. 8. Where ivere you jireviously educated? — There ivere classical schools in Sligo, and I attended them for five years; and I went to the College of Tuam, St. Jarlath's. 9. Were the schools at Sligo day schools or boarding schools? — Nearly all day schools; I 5vas for about eighteen months, I think, boarding in one school in Sligo. 10. Did you make any particular study of English before you came to IMaynooth? — I had read geograjdiy wdiile in Tuam ; we had tw o classes a week in geography. 11. Did you read English grammar? — Yes, before 1 ivent to classics; and some arithme- tic, nearly the whole course, before. 12. Did you read any English books? — I had the Histoi’y of England, by Goldsmith, and Keating's History of Ireland. Englisli. MIXUTKS OF FVIDENCF. 2G9 13. Have you over been in the infirmary (hiring yonr residence in the College? — Yes. 14. How olten? — Not very often; occasionally. 1;'). Are yon satisfied with the attention and care paid to the sick in the infirmary? — I myself felt satislied. 1(). Had you anything to complain of on the score of medical attendance or accommoda- tion in the infirmary itself, or the state of the building? — I have no complaint to make. 17. Have yon a Bible in your possession? — Yes. 1(S. Had yon one when yon entered the College? — No; but immediately on coming in I got one. 1!). Was it furnished to you by any of the C'ollege authorities? — Yes; on entrance I paid ,a deposit, and then 1 got whatever books the College allowed, and among those books was a Bible. 20. You were asked if you were in possession of one already, were you not? — No, I was not asked when I entered. 21. AVhen von entered the College Avere a'ou asked Avhetlier a'ou had a Bible or not? — No. 22. Then Iioav did it hajipen that yon Avere furnished Avitli one? — In this AA'ay; the students generally acijnaint those men Avho came in that those books are given, and if they have not got one they can get one. 23. If yon Avant it yon ask for it? — Yes; the freshmen coming in are all informed by the senior students in the College that it is necessary to get those books. I think I Avas told that it Avas necessary to get them, and then I Avent to the Bursar and got them. 24. AVhat use do yon make of the Bible; is it used for yonr studies? — In my tAA'o years in aynooth Ave had a Bible Class twice a Aveek, for an hour each day, of three cha})ters in the Old Testament ; and any student Avas liable to be called upon to be examined in any chajiter by tbe professor. 25. AYhat ])ortions of the Bible have yon read since yon have been in IMaynooth? — I think I have read nearly the Avhole of the Old Testament. 2G. Have yon read the Ncav Testament since yon have been at Maynooth? — Yes. 27. As a part of yonr priA'atc studies? — Yes. 28. Yon liaA’e not yet come to it as a ]>art of yonr class? — AVe Avill not have the Scrip- ture class till next year ; but in the theology course Ave are constantly I’eferred to the Noav Testament. 21). The Bible yon Avere furnished Avith aa'os the Vulgate? — Yes. 30. IlaA'e yon a Greek Testament? — I liaAe not, but I liaAm a Latin one. 31. Are any lectures given on the Greek Testament? — No. 32. AVei’o yon examined Avhen yon AA'ere admitted in the Gospel of St. John? — No, I AA'as not ; I stood for rhetoric, and I Avas examined in LiA-y and Homer. 33. Yon Avere not admitted into the Rhetoric Cla.ss, Avere you? — I passed for it in the classics, Imt I AAas not prepared to ansAver in the sciences. 34. Did you attend any lectures on ecclesiastical history? — Yes. 35. AVhat AA'as the subject? — Last year AA'as my first year, and Ave commenced Avith the Life of Luther and the Reformation. 3G. AAdiat Avas the text book that you made use of ? — Alzog ; I took the order from Alzog, and read it from IleceA'enr. 37. Have you any history yourself ? — I haA’e Alzog. 38. LTpon Avhat subject are you now being lectui’ed in history? The LiA-es of the Popes of the SeA'enteenth Century. 33. AA'^hat books do you use ? — Alzog is the text liook, but ReccA'eur is the book Ave refer to. 40. AYere you an honor man in your class? — I got the first distinction in physics. \The Wiirtess withdrew.'] ]\Ir. Christopher Carroll examined. 1. From Avhat part of the country do you come? — From the county of GaLvay and diocese of Kilmacduagh. 2. You are iioav senior student of the second year, are you not? — Yes. 3. In Avhat institution had you been educated before you entered Maynooth ? — At a private day school in Loughrea. 4. Up to Avhat age? — About fifteen or si.xteen. 5. In Avhat class did you enter at Alaynooth ? — The Humanity Class. 6. Had you studied Humanity before you entered Maynooth ? — I had I’cad the course of classics necessary for entrance. 7. Had you read much English before you came to Maynooth? — Yes; a fair share. 8. NA'^ere you a pretty good grammatical scholar in English? — A^es; tolerably good. 9. Had you had any exercises in English composition before ? — -A'ery little. 10. Have you had many since you have been at Alaynooth? — ATs, for two years. 11. Do you now compose pretty fluently? — Tolerably. 12. Did you learn any French before you came to Maynooth? — A"es. 13. A"ou studied French there? — A"es. 14. What progress did you make? — So much that I think I could read and translate any French 1 should meet now. 15. In one year? — ATs. 2\st Ocloher, 1833. Mr. O’Connor, Divinity Student. Possession of Bible. How furnished to him. Bible Class. Portions of Bible read. Ecclesiastical history. Mr. Carroll, Divinity Student. Witness from Gal- way. Previous education. English. French, 270 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. 2l.s7 October, 1853. Mr. Carroll, Divinity Student. Physics. Greek. Latin. 24. Kev. r. Lavelle, Dunboyne Student. Witness from Mayo. Previous education. 16. Can you read Frencli pretty fluently now ? — Yes. 17. Could you translate a volume of Bourdaloue ? — I could understand it as I went on, if I did not read it very quicldy. 18. Wliat books did you read during the Frencli Class in Maynootli? — Bossuet’s Universal History, and Fenelon. 19. Did you read Teleinaque? — I have read part of it. 20. Have you continued the study of French since you passed that class? — I sometimes use some French author in studying theology. 2 1 . Did you pay much attention to the Physics Class when you passed through it ? Pretty fair attention ; I thought I knew ray business pretty well. 22. What were you doing in the Physics Year besides attending the Physics Class? — I had another class to attend on Ecclesiastical History. 23. But the Physics Class occupied your time principally? — Yes; it was the principal class. We had only two classes a week in the Ecclesiastical History. 24. Have you kept up your knowledge of physics since? — No; I have not time to practise it. 25. Had you any knowledge of Greek before you entered Maynooth ? — Yes, I had. I had read some Greek ; it comprised a part of the course we read before. It was necessary in order for admission into the College, to know a course of Greek. 26. Have you pursued the study of Greek since ? — I did, two years ; I read in the College the two first years in humanity and rhetoric. 27. Since you passed through those classes have you continued the study? ^Very seldom. 28. Do you begin to find your knowledge of Greek fading? — Indeed I do. However, when I have an idle hour I would like to take it up and try it again. 29. Do you possess any Greek volumes of your own?— Not at present. I left them at home. 30. But you have some of your own, have you not ? — I have. 3 1 . What Greek works have you ? — Thucydides, Aristotle’s Rhetoric, Homer, Longinus, Lucian, &c. 32. Did you read Aristotle's Rhetoric ? — Part of it. 33. Did you read it both for the substance and also for the style? — Yes, for both. 34. Did you go through the whole of the Rhetoric in that year? — Yes, I did. 35. The whole volume? — No; because we had other authors to read during the time along with it. 36. You did not get through the whole of Aristotle’s Treatise ? — No. 37. What portion of it did you get through? — As far as I can remember, two or three books. I am not quite certain about it. 38. Do you ever read any Latin books exce])t those that are requisite for the class ? — I do. 39. For your own private instruction? — Yes; but generally speaking we have enough to do ; we keep up our knowledge of Latin by that. 40. It is not the habit, is it, to read other authors in Latin besides those which are requisite for the class ? — I am not aware. 41. It is not your own habit? — No ; I feel in reading them that I will just derive as much benefit from reading them as I would by reading any other. 42. Do you find that you can exjjress your ideas easily upon an abstruse subject, such as logic, in Latin ? — Not so fluently as in English. 43. Do you find that you think upon those subjects in Latin ? — I cannot say that I do ; I generally think on them in English. 44. Is the whole of the lecture in these classes delivered in Latin ; or is any part of it in conversation, or in English? — Yes; any part that the professor would think difficult, and that the students would not fully understand, he would explain in English ; but generally speaking, the lectures are all in Latin. 45. Is a student ever allowed to answer in English if he finds a difficulty in expressing himself in Latin? — Yes, he is; if he cannot express himself fully, or make himself under- stood in Latin, he can express himself in English. 46. What pi’izes do you get in the College? — I have got no prizes of any sort; I was never in any way distinguished. 47. You were taught the different branches of ^Mathematics, were you not ? — Yes. \_The Witness withdrew.^ The Rev. Patrick Lavelle, examined. 1. You are the senior Dunboyne student, are you not':' — Yes. 2. Wliat is your age now’:' — I am twenty -seven or twenty-eight. 3. From wiiat }>art of the country do you come'f — From Westport, in the county of Mayo, archdiocese of Tuam. 4. At what aire did you enter Mavnooth 'I — I entered IMaynooth at the age of eighteen. 0. W here had you received your previous education? — Principally in the College of Tuam, St. Jarlath’s; I was there four years before I entered Maynooth. 6. What coui-se of study had you passed through there before you entered Maynooth? — The classics principally, and sciences, that is, algebra and geometry only, French, and the Belles Lettres. 271 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7. Is the education p;ivon at St. Jarlatli’s exclusively for the ecclesiastical state? — No; oun;y before you left St. darlath’s? — No. 9. Into what class did you enter at iNIaynooth? — Into the Rhetoric Class, called the First or Senior Cdass of Iluinanity. 10. What woi’o you examined in on entering hlaynooth? — I was examined in Homer, in the third book, in Cicero’s Orations foi- Archias, and in algebra. 11. How long tlid that examination last? — In all, about half an hour. The examination was conducted on two separate days. I was examined in classics first day, in Homer, for about fifteen lines, to translate and j)arse, and then a few sentences of Latin. That occu- pied about twenty minutes or a quarter of an hour. A day or two afterwards there was an examination in algebra. 12. Your translation was not written, but oral? — Oral. 13. Who were ])resent at your examination? — The President, Dr. Callan, Dr. Russell, and, I think, Mr. Furlong. I recollect Dr. Callan examined me in physics; he gave me some questions in algebra, and Dr. Russell in Greek. 14. Have you read any Greek since you left the Greek Class? — No, except in referring occasionally to the Testament in the study of Scriptxire. 15. Is there often a reference to the Greek Bible, the Old or the New Testament, in the subseqiient studies? — Not so much in the theological as in the scrij)tural studies; there is constant reference in those to the Greek text where there is difficidty in throwing a light upon the subject. 16. Do the students take the volume with them into class, to enable them to refer to it at the time ? — They are not supposed to have any books in the Scripture Class but the Testa- ment alone. 17. Is it in Latin? — In English. The verses are read out in English, and then expounded and explained in English ; and then, if either the Hebrew or the Greek throws any light upon a difficult passage, it is referred to. 18. What translation of the Testament do you use? — The Douay enth’ely. 19. When reference is made to the Greek, it is made by the })rofessor reading out the Greek words, is it not? — Sometimes the professor; generally the student, if he has studied it so deeply, refers himself to it. He says, “ The Greek text runs thus, and might be explained, perhaps more conveniently, in this Avay.” Sometimes, if it is found that it is not necessary to refer to the Greek, the student avIio is called to ansAver does not refer; the professor alAA^ays refers. 20. Has every student a Greek Testament in his possession ? — I cannot say that every student has. 21. Has eA’ery D unboy ne student? — I cannot say; I had one A\dien I was studying Scrip- ture. The Scripture is universally studied Avith the Greek Testament open at the side of them. 22. Have you a HebreAv Bible ? — Not now ; I had one till this year, and I gaA’e it aA\’ay. 23. AjL’e lectures given in HebreAv? — Yes, once a-Aveek. 24. Do you attend them noAv? — Not uoav. The tAvo first years the Dunboyne students are obliged to study IlebrcAv, but the third year they are exempted from that. 25. Is it the course in the theological class to present arguments on both sides to the con- sideration of the students, and to call upon them, Avhen examined, to point out AAdiere the infirmity of either lies ? — That is not so much the course. The course is this : the proof of the doctrine to be established is first laid doAA'n by the professor, and the student is expected to be able to ansAver that proof, not in the precise Avords of the professor, but to lay doAvn principles, and deA'elop them. After he has gone through that process, the arguments of the opponents are proposed in the shape of objections. The princijile is, first, the arguments in fa Amur of the doctrine to be established ; and then the contrary doctrine is laid down, and arguments are proposed as difficulties against that doctrine. 26. That is the form folloAved in the Treatise, is it not? — That is the mode in AA'liich all our theologians treat dogmatic questions. 27. Is it expanded much in the lectures? — AlAAvays; you are given that in the class trea- tises of the house, but not more than is to be found in 800 or 900 Avriters Avho have AAU’itten on dogmatic theology. 28. Are the principal propositions illustrated by reference to cases, by the professor, in his lectures? — AhA’ays by cases, but not so much in dogmatic theology — scarcely ever in dogmatic theology. Occasionally, of course, there are some illustrations, partly from natu- ral and partly from moral subjects, but much more in moral theology. 29. In that case, there Avould be an application to the practical concerns of life, Avoidd there not? — Yes, and that occurs in the study of dogmatic theology. 30. HaA’e you read the Treatise “ De Ecclesia?” — Yes; I haA'e read the whole course of theology. 31. HaA’e you, during that course, treated the question of the distinction between the temporal and the spiritual power? — Yes; the professors, not formally indeed, treat the dis- tinction betAveen them. So fiir as I haA’e seen (and I ha\’e read this subject under tAvo pro- fessors) they neA’er formally introduce the question of the temjAoral jAOAver. The spiritual poAver, merely, is defined and established. The temporal poAver is, perhaps, not even alluded to; but, of course, it is alluded to negatiA’ely, AA’hen all the priA’ileges and poAvers of the Pope are laid doAvn, Avhen the temporal power is not reckoned amongst them. I mean to say that the discussion of the temporal power is neA^er formally introduced. With regard 2Ii'i October, 1853. 24. Kev. r. Lavelle, Dunboyne Student. Entrance examina- tion. Greek. Scripture class. Scripture always studied with Greek Testament. Hebrew. Mode of conducting theology class. Treatise De Ecclesia. Temporal and spiri- tual power. 272 :>iAYX00Tii co:\missiox. 2Is< October, 1853. 24. Hev. P. Lavelle, Ihinboyiie Student. Teaching as to whe- ther allegiance can he relaxed or annulled. Present concurrence of divines as to the temporal power of the Pope. Advocates of the indirect temporal power restrict it to sovereigns within the pale of tlie Church. I leclaratory power. to the doctrine t;utglit by the ])i’ofessors nnder whom I studied, and by tlie other professors, .so far as I could juilge from otliers, tlie doctrine of the temporal jiower of the Pope, under- stood in the sense that there is any jiower in the ('hnrch, or in any member of the Church, to exercise temjioral sway over any civil states, is condemned without any possible limita- tion, and condemned in the simjilest terms. 82. When you speak of power, do you speak of piower over the consciences, as well as power by civil functions? Would the Church have a power, by its iiiHuence over the con- science, so as to afiect the civil actions of a man, irresjiectively of mere morals; actions in themselves inditferent, but which were capable of having a colour given to them accordinglv as they wei’e done Avith one purpose or another ? Suppose a A’ote at an election : a’ou would say that in itself the A’ote was a matter of inditference, but it may have a moral character according to the intention of the pierson bestoAving it : do you consider that the Pope, or the Church in any form, has a control over the consciences of men as to the ajiplication of a general principle? — I do say that, Avherc it is supposed that the action is in any case indif- ferent (because some actions may be inditferent Avhile jilaced in jiarticnlar circumstances, and in others may be a violation of the law); but if it is supposed tliat eA'ery individual action is inditferent in itself, I do not suppose that the Church Avordd be justitied in interfering with the consciences of men, and I knoAv the Clnu'ch AvoiAld not do it, because the Church’s function is merely to direct men’s consciences in those things that appertain to their final end; but in an inditferent case it does not appertain at all to their final end. 38. In the possible, though not proliable case of the Pope interfering Avith the allegiance of subjects, Avould such an interference liaA’e any effect upon the obligation imj)Osed by the oath of allegiance, Avith respect to the action of the subject? — Not the slightest; no more than the interference of the loAvest man in the community Avould luvA e. 84. The obligation to him as the head of the Church Avould not extend to such a case? — Not in the smallest degree. 85. lias this ([uestion eA^er been discussed in class, or has any positive instruction been giA’en as to Avhether the allegiance Avhich is due to the sovereign can be relaxed or annulled by any poAver or authority Avhatsoever? — That (juestion, so far as I can remember, has ncA-er been formally and in so many terms introduced ; but it has been, virtually, in many cases. It comes nnder the subject of the obligation of states, as it is called, in moral theology. The princijde of St. Paid is thoroughly develoiied, that is, “ Let every soul be subject to the higher poAvers.” There it is laid doAvn that subjects are bound by oldigations of allegiance to the soA'ercign authorities of the realm ; that they are bound universally, and Avithout any exception. The question is introduced in discussion by all theologians, by English Avriters as Avell as others, 1)A" Paley and others, and by Bnrke — that is, hoAV far the civil power (speaking uoav of the supreme poAver) may ])ossibly in any case forfeit its right to allegiance. Then that doctrine, of course, I heard discussed thoroughly, and a practical conclusion Avas come to; and that conclusion is opposed to the decision of tAvo or three A'ery eminent English Avriters, and is to the etfect that no individual in the community can say to himself, the soA^ereign jioAvcr has outstripped its rights and its limits, and I am released from the obligation of allegiance. And much less Avould any ])erson be justified in declaring, not onlv that he himself, but that the community AA as justified in abandoning their allegiance. It is again discussed, under the head of the poAA'er of the Pope, in the treatise of the Church. In the 'Treatise on the Church, of course, the distinction is made betAveen the temporal and spiritual poAver; and the temporal poAver is emphatically excluded by all modern Avriters. But all divines, and CA’en the exponents of Bellarmine’s doctrine, agree, that not only has the Pope no direct poAver, but not even indirect ])OAver, to absolve, or to declare absolved from the oath or obligation of allegiance, Avhich arises not alone from the human, but from the divine — almost from the natural Uiaa’ — that in no case has the Pope the pOAA'er of either absohing from the obligation of allegiance, or of declaring absoh-ed. There are, as Avell as I remember, four o})inions upon that subject. There is the extreme o])inion, aaIucIi has been since abandoned, that the Pojie has direct temporal pOAver. Then the doctrine of indirect poAver is laid doAvn by Bellarmine, and his ex])onents explain him to mean, that there is question there, not of soA’ei'cigns Avithout the communion of the Church of Rome, but of those Avho are Avithin her communion, and Avho may be considered bound by certain rights — by certain international rights. They say, then, that eA'en his indirect temporal ])OAver does not extend outside the tdinrch, but arises from some national agreement or concession — for examine, a virtual arrangement, that the profession of a certain creeil, or the observance of certain rights, and the maintenance of certain immunities and privileges of sulijects, Avere necessarily the conilitions of reigning. In these respects the Po]ie might be, 1 >a’ the subjects, looked ujion as a natur.al arbiter, or natural judge, as to AAdiether those rights Avere infringed ujion, or those immunities retained; but that has only I'eference to persons inside the Church: outside the Church the Pope has no poAver, they saA’, direct or indirect. Even the exponents of Bellarmine’s doctrine are of opinion that the Pope has not, outside the Church, any temporal i)OAver, direct or indirect — any poAver to interfere Avith the obligations of allegiance of any subject. This is the doctrine that is maintained, and I neA'er heard the contrary for a moment entertained in IMaynooth, or in any diA’ine that I liaA e read. 80. You neA'er heard the doctrine maintained, that the Pope, by the position AA'hich he occupies as the head of the Church, is the person avIio Avonld be entitled to satisfy the con- science of a Roman Catholic, in a case Avhere he thought that the oath of allegiance had a doubtful holl upon him, and Avould entitle him to hold himself at liberty to depart from an mistaken vicAv. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 273 t'iu>‘a^emont wliiOi he had entered into? — In tlic first ])!aee, I innst say tliat sueli a })erson wonhl he lahoiirinij; under a mistake, in sn])i)Osin^ that there is any rio’lit in tlie Pope to interfere, hecanse, trom what I have laid down, I have asserted that he lias no riyiit. 37. To reenr tor a moment to the ijnestion of eleetions, would it he an intrusion if the Pope himself, or a ])riest, who, I suppose, has not more authority than the Po])o, were to dietate, under s])iritual sanctions, the eourse to he pursued? — The answer to that is, that, practically sjieakiu!::, I think tlie case can very rarely occur where they would he justified; hut I do maintain, accordinriest would not he justified in those cases that have been mentioned, is, because, in the first place, as I said, the act of this Jierson, the memher, in doing injury to the Church is not the act of the voter; and in the second jilace, because the jiriest can never have the moral certainty, •which he certainly requires, that this person will do an act of injurv, or that the other person would not do just as had. 42. Are the Commissioners to understand you to hold that it is not in the jiower of the Pojie, or of a jiriest, or of ain' ecclesiastical authority, to make it sinful if they issued a mandate to vote one way or the other, to disobey the mandate? — In any case? 1 have not held that at all. 43. Sujijiose the case of an election, and that a mandate or order was given to me by the Pojie, or a jiriest, to vote for A in jireference to P>, would that mandate create in me, being a Roman Catholic, any obligation to obey? — Not the slightest. 44. He may advise, and give Ids ojiinion’? — Yes, of course ; but if he even declares it sinful in some case, and if it be evidently not sinful, there is no obligation in conscience ujion the voter. 4.'i. As a jiart of your jiastoral instruction, such being the law, have you been taught ■whether it is jirojier or not for a jiriest to sjieak on election matters in such a tone as to make him ajqiear to sjieak with authoritv'? — Never. I never heard that matter discussed at all during my theological studies. 46. Such as his sjieaking from the altar, or in his robes? — N caxu’. I neA’er heard that matter discussed, even incidentally, in any class of mine. 47. Did yon ever hear an ojiinion expressed on the other side of the subject? — Never in class. I merely give my answers from the general jirincijiles of moral theology. 45. During the course of your studies at Maynooth, has any instruction been specifically applied towards informing you of the spiritual duties of a jiriest irresjiectively of the general effect produced by the whole training, and a knoAvledge of theology, and if so, state at what periods of the course, and bv whom, that instruction has been couA’eyed’? — To answer that categorically, in the first jilace, there is a sjieciHc instruction on that subject coming under that head, to -which I alluded before, on the obligations of states. There the obligations of a priest, Avhether a jiarish jiriest or a curate, are specifically discussed. Their specific duties are laid down in the course of moral theology. Of course all the details cannot be developed ; but there is a sjiecific jiortion of the treatise occujiied in laying down the duties of jiriests, both parish jiriests and curates, not, of course, in relation to the matter of elections, (that is not sujiposed), but his sjiiritual duties, and his sjiiritual relations with those committed to his charge. In the second jilace, as to the jieriod, that may be what may be called in the first year’s divinity, that is, it may be a jiortion of the studies of the first class in divinity; because, according to the practice pursued since I 'J[st Otiubi.r, 18.13. l!c“v. r. I.avcllc. 1 limboyiie Sunlcnt. ICk'clions. Priest could not do- cl.are it a sin to vote one iv;iy or anotlier. Why. No discussion uiam this matter at .May- uooth. Instruction as to duties of priests. 274 MAYN00T4I COMMISSIOX. 21 s/ October, 1853. 24. Rey. P. Lavelle, Dimboyne Student. And specifically as to their duties in Ire- land. Instruction as to clerical duties. Provision of the Sta- tutes as to inculcation of allegiance. "Whether carried out. Treatment of heretics. Bulla Coenae not pub- lished here. Its publication in a volume of Den’s Tlie- ology does not give it the force of formal publication. entered tlie College, the treatises alternate ; the first year’s class, or rather the first year’s divines, do not always read the same subjects, or rather, the professors in the first year’s Divinity Class do not always teach the same things, but what one taught one year another taught another. It was in the course of dogmatic theology, and it may be in any of the classes. As to the third portion of the (piestion, it may be at any period of the theological course, and by any professor. 49. Is that the only portion of the covtrse in which that specific instruction is given ? — Yes. 50. Is there any such instruction given with reference to the pecidiar position of this country in which the pastoral duties are intended to be discharged? — Yes, there is. 51. At what ]:)eriod of the course? — At any period, and by any professor, because it is discussed under the head of the obligations of the priesthood. 52. In your time, when and by whom was that done? — In my last year, that is, in my fourth year’s dh-inity, by Dr. O’lieilly. 53. At what period of the fourth year was that? — It was after Christmas, that is, the s econd section of the year. 54. How long did that course of instruction continue, and how was it conveyed? — The whole course on the obligations of states continued for about two months. 55. The question referred to tlie ])ortion which related to your specific duties in Ireland? — It lasted about a week : I think I could say a fortnight. I recollect distinc.tly that our own professor gave us perhaps half a score or a dozen distinct lectures on it ; and then afterwards interrogated at several classes, and some of the students explained the nature of the obligations of a ])riest in this country, and he interrogated some of his class on wdiat he had explained himself. 56. That occupied about a fortnight, did it? — Y^es; that is, what regarded the Irish priests particidarly, because, of course, what regarded all priests regarded them too; but there must have been specific instruction : for instance, the matter of benefices came under it, whether a parish were a benefice, and things of that sort. 57. But a portion of the instruction was s})ecially a])[)licd to the duties to be assumed and performed in Ireland ; how long did that continue ? — I have said about a fortnight. 58. IIow' many lectures were given? — I think by the professor himself either half a dozen or a dozen lectiu’es, and he afterwards interrogated some of the students themselves on the subject. 59. Was he the Professor of Dogmatic Theology? — Of moral and dogmatic theology generally; dogmatic in the first year, and moral the second. 60. I will read to you a passage from one of the Statutes — “ Let the Professor of Dog- matic Theology strenuously exert himself to impress on his class that the allegiance which they owe to the Royal Majesty cannot be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever;” Avas that proposition, or its substance, inculcated in that part of the instruction which was coiweyed? — Not, to the best of my memory, in that jiart of the instruction; but, as I said before, it Avas under the others; it might indeed haA'e l)een introdxiced under that head, but I do not remember it. The professor in my first year’s diA’inity might have introduced it — though, to the best of my belief, he did not; it aaus that Aery year that Ave read the general matter of the obligations of states, and, of course, it Avas quite unnecessary to introduce it there. 61. You alluded to the question as to AAdiether a parish in Ireland was a benefice? — That is merely a disputed question, that particularly regards Ireland. 62. In Avhat manner Avould that ditt'erence of o])inion affect the rights or duties of a parish priest? — The general doctrine laid doAvn by our diA'ines is, that a jAriest is bound to giA’e the sui’plus revenues either to charitable or pious purposes; and then the practical question arises, AAdiether parishes are benefices in this country. 63. There are certain bulls AAdiich treat of the manner of dealing Avith heretics, haA*e they been brought to your attention in the course of your studies ’? — Yes ; jiarticularly one bull, and that is the bull of Martin V. 64. Has the Bulla Coenas cA'er been brought to your notice? — No; that is not receiA’ed in tins counti’A'. The bull of Martin V. aaus to release the memliers of the Church from the difficulties under AAdiich they might be labouring Avitli regard to their commerce or commu- nion Avith heretics, that is, persons of a diffei’ent creed ; and then he laid doAvn the principle there that those were not to be aA’oided in civil communion, except in one case, AAdiere they were, as Ave say, “ nominatim denunciati,” that is, no heretic aaus to be avoided, except in a case Avliere there Avas an indiAddual named, and announced as a notorious heretic. That is the only case Avhere AA^e Avere bound to aA oid their society. That bull has been formally introduced to our notice ; and it aaus in my second year’s divinity. 65. YMu say that the Bulla Coenm is not considered of authority here? — No, that is the uniA’ersal impression here. I knoAV some persons think that it is, but the general belief is that it is not. 66. Was that the bull that was declared by the late Archbishop Crolly and the late Archbisho]) Mun’ay not to be in force in Ireland? — Yes: in their examination before the House of Lords. 67. Is not the Bulla Cocnm published in one of the A’olumes of Den’s Theology which was printed in Ireland ; and has it not been, therefore, to a certain extent, promulgated by the authority Avhich put forth Den’s Theology? — One thing is, that if printed in it, it gets circulation ; the other thing is, AAdiether it be admitted as of binding force, and it has not that. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27.5 (58. You do not liold tliat, bocause it has l)ocn printed in tliis country, tliereforc it has the force arising from technical publication? — Not at all. Gi). Publication in an ecclesiastical sense means, does it not, ]>ublication in a diocese or in a parish by some ecclesiastical authority? — Yes; but it must l>e formally received by tlie hierarchy of the country, or virtually, that is, they must have submitted to its enactment for years, or they must have formally declared that they have received it. 70. d'hey must either have acapiiesced iu it for a considerable time, or it must have been formally promulo-ated by some ecclesiastical authority? — Yes; and they have done neither. "VYith regard to the Pope’s power of deposing sovereigns — for that is really the practical point upon which the whole matter turns — it strikes me that I’ius the VII. declared, in answer to a retpiest made by Napoleon, that he would never do any thing against the four famous declarations for the liberties of the Gallicau Church, lie declared distinctly that his objection was not against t'.ie lirst article, and that first article lays down the doctrine that the Pope had no tem])oral power whatever; therefore, Pius the VII. himself repudiated it. 71. The Commissioners have been referring to the eighth volume of Den’s Theology, as published by Coyne in 18152 ; have you, amongst the books in your private library, for your own reading, or for reference, the works of Den's referred to on this occasion? — No; I have not. 72. You have not it iu any fonner edition? — No; not in my own private library. 73. With regard to those ([uestions which relate to the treatment of heretics, the condemnation declared against heretics, ami the mode of treating them, as prescribed in several of the Pope’s bulls — what view of the subject has been presented to you? — I must say, that the view has been not formally })resented to us in theology, but it has been in the study of ecclesiastical history, to this effect, that ])hysical coercion is not to be useil by the Pope, as such ; but where the civil power may have laws sanctioning a recourse to ci\ il coercion, it may then be used against heretics, provided those heretics are disturbers of the public peace ; but they are to be jmnislied not as heretics, but as clisturbers of the ■peace. The doctrine presented to us in theology is, that heretics outside the Catholic Church are never to be punished by the sword, either by the temporal or by the spiritual power, and that it is unjust to puuisli them with the sword e.xce})t in cases where they are disturbers of the j)ublic tranquillity, ami violators of the public peace; but even then they cannot be punished by the Church. With regard to the historical (question in those cases Avhere heretics have been punished, we are taught in history, that, with regard to the heretics who have been known to be punished in that way, such as the Albigenses and the Vaudois, there the state was justified in punkshing them, because they were disturbers of the public order. [TZ/c Witness withdrew. Mr. John 'Madden, examined. 1. From what part of the coiuitry do you come?— From the county of Donegal 2. What age are you? — Twenty-three. 3. You are now the senior student of the Third Class of Divinity, are you not? — Yes. 4. Where did you receive your previous ediication ’? — At a small town called Ballyshannon. 5. Was it a ])i’ivate establishment or a seminary? — A private establishment. G. In what class did you enter? — In the Humanity Class. 7. Was any instruction s])eciaily given to you as to the duties of subjects in your dog- matic course, or in your moral course ? — \Ve had it occurring in the Scriptiu’es. In tlie 13th chapter of the Romans, I think, St. Paul tells us, “Let every soul be subject to the higher powers.” 8. Were you ever taught that the allegiance which is owed to the sovereign cannot be relaxed or annulled by any pov/er or authority whatever? — Nothing particularly on that point. 'J. Mei’ely that it was involved in the general duties of subjects’? — Yes; that allegiance was due to the legitimate reigning authority and government of the country. 10. Was the question ever tliscussed before you as to whether any other authority could release you from your allegiance? — Never, that 1 remember. 11. No particular doctrine was taught to you upon that point? — No. 12. You never heard that any authority coidd release you from the obligation of allegiance ? — No; I. think I heard something discussed that, perhaps, might bear upon that point, in the History Class, about the temj)oral power of the Poj)e ; and it was said, at the time, by Dr. Russell, the Professor of Ecclesiastical History, that the Pope possessed no control what- ever iu temporal matters in these countries, or in any other countries, at present, or at any time. He held, that it was only tlie mere power that was given to him by the monarchs themselves, and that he was looked up to by them as an arbitrator ; that thei’e was nothing inherent in himself, and nothing ilelegated to liim by Christ. 13. That the Pope had no authority over the consciences of Christians in civil affairs by virtue of his position? — None whatever. 14. Did you receive any instructions at all how to compose a sermon’? — That was by private study, principally, and in the two junior years by Professor Kelly, the Professor of Belles Lettres and French 15. What amount of instructlcn did he give you on that subject? — He told us merely the difi’erent parts of a discourse, and how a discoui’se should be arranged. 2n-2 2 Is/ October, 1853. Rev. r. Lavellc, Duiiboyne Student. Treatment ot heretics. 25. Mr. .T. M.adden, Divinity’ Student. Previous education of witness. Instruction in duties of subjects. In composition of sermons. 276 MAYXOOTfl COMMISSION. ■2lsl Oclobcr, lSj3. 25. .Mr. .1. Maiklon, Divinity Student. Association 'with CO- lioeesuiis. Instruction as to religious duties. Jntinnary. 1(). MMs that ap])lle;l particularly to the composition of a sermon ? — Yes; ami often he n;avc us lectures or di.scourses iu general. 17. How lUitny lectures did he give you; or did he give you any lectures, the tvhole of which were specifically tipplied to the composing of a sermon? — He mixed the lectures up. IS. In how many lectures tlid he advert to that subject? — He used to lecture for an hour tvery evening. 111. In how many of those lectures did he advert to the com])osition of a sermon particu- larly? — Almost in every one; that was the particidar aim which he had in view. 20. You mean iu almost all his lectures, or iu what ]>art of the course? — He gives no lectures on the subject except iu the humanity and rhetoric years. 21. Do von mean that in every lecture he delivere.l, he spoke to you about sermons?— .Mostly; lie used to bring them in indirectly when he lectureil; sometimes he did not lecture at all; he useil to call u]> persons uj)on the subject on which he had lectured on a former evening. Ythien he g.ivc a prelection he referred in this manner; and at other times lie gave a catechetical lecture. 22. When he gave a prelection, and delivered it orallv to the stu louts, did he, in every case, speak to you about the conijiositiou of sermons? — Yes; he miglit not exactly mention a sermon, but tlie object he had in yiew was evident from the subject of the lecture. 21). During those two years how many exercises did you write? — \Ve had a great number (if exercises in essay writing. 24. How many did you yourself write ? — That depended upon a person's assiduitv. 2b. How many ddd you write? — I wrote about six or seyen ; I cannot say exactly. During the first year I was oidy making jirejiarations for the second year. I ajiplied myself alto- gether io the theory of writing, and the second year I put that theory into practice as well as I coidd. 26. Did you compose all your exercises your.self ? — Yes. 27. In your recreations do you habitually associate with those from your own diocese ? — Yes. 25. Is it understood, generally, that that is expected of the stmlents? — You may associate with any ])ersons you wish. 2i). After dinner is there any particular rule about it? — There is no particular rule, 'riiere is a custom, generalLy, that the students of the different dioceses go together, for they know each other best, I su|)pose; they sit together after dinner for some time, and talk, and then go out to their recreations. If they take recreations in the field, or in the ball-courts, they are mixed u]) with all parties. MO. You neyer heard that it was rather expected that those from the same dioceses should associate together, and that it would be rather disapproyed of if they did not do so after meals?— It all dei)ends upon the students themselyes. There is a custom that they generally walk together, and perhaps it would be thought odd if they did not. Ml. Is it understood that they ought to walk together at certain times of the day? — Yes. M2. At what time of the day in ])articular? — After dinner. MM. When in the junior house, tlid the Dean give you instructions upon matters of duty in religion? — Yes. M4. d'hat was giyen at periods assigned for ]>rayer and religious exercises, was it not ? — Yes. Mb. Was it always done, or was if sometimes omitted on those days? — Yes, it was some- times omitted through the occasional illness of the superior. M6. You refer to Dean (laffney, do you not? — Yes. M7. M'lien he was ill did anybody else giA'c instruction in his j)lace? — Sometimes they used; there is no particular dean. It is the duty of every one of the deans to give instruc- tions at certain times, but there are no stated times. M)S. Did anybody give instruction exce])t Dr. (laffney to you? — Yes. Mb. What was the name of the gentleman? — ^Ir. Gunn. 40. Did he ])recede Dr. Galfney? — Yes. 41. Did any of the other deans also do so? — Dr. Lee sometimes did. 42. Mhis tl'.at during Dr. Gaffnev’s absence on the Continent? — I think it avas. 43. About how often in the year do you receive those instructions? — There are no stated times. 44. Do you receive them ten times or twentv times, or how often? — I cannot say how often ; that depends altogether upon the will of the superior; there is no rule to that effect. 4b. Will a fortnight pass sometimes without your receiving such instructions? — YTs. 4‘b A month? — Yes, twen a month. Hut there is always half an hour’s meditation in the morniiur. which is, generally, as gooil as any lecture that any su])erior could give. 47. Were you ever in the Infirmary? — Yes. 45. Can you state whether the attendance there Avas satisfactory to you or not? — I had nothing ])articularly to coni})lain of. 4!i. W hat Avas the matter Avith you? — I AA'as not A'ery ill; I A\’as A-ery seldom in it; generally Avith a slight cold, or something of that sort. oO. 4Yliat part of the binlding do a'ou occuj)y? — ^Yhat is called the new house. We distinguish between the ncAv buildings and the neAA’ house. The ucav house is the one that was built by the Tresident before the grant. bl. Is your room damp? — I think Avhere I live is the best part of the house. I, being in one of the senior classes, am in the best part. ,')2. Did you receive a Bible Avhen you entered the College? — Yes. -)M. From Avhom ? — From the Bursar. bl. Did you j)ay for it? — Yes. I’osscssioii cf Iliblc. MIXUTKS OF FA'IDENCE. 277 55. Do yon know wlu'tlier tlio students ffcnerally li;ivc Eihles? — They all possc.ss Bibles; they must <;'et them troin the Bursar, or lune ihein of their own. 5(). Do yon know ot any stiuUmts ha\ in-veat number Inivino; obtained them recently. ;)7. AV hat |iarts ot Seriptun* have yon read since yon haye been in the Ckdleite? — The Epistle to the Bomans,part ot the ICplstle to the Corinthians, by St. Paul, and part of St. James. 58. Those, I presume, yon have read in class? — Yes. ;>!). 1 lave yon read any other portion ? — I have read other portions bvmy.self,bnt not in class. ()0. Is it made a j)art ot your pri\ate meditations or j)rivate study? — There is always a chapter in the Bil)le read dnrinistle to the Romans, part ot the Fii’st Epistle to tlie Corinthians, by St. Paul, and a part of the Epistle of St. flames. 75. AAhis that all — \es; but we were required to giye a yery accurate interpretation of those ])arts. 7(i. Haye you eyer gone through the ProjJiets? — Occasionally. <7. Haye you gone through them regularly as a .system?- — Not yet; but I think, this year, in our course, we will rec|uire to kno\y them; they occasionally will come into any dogmatic treatise on theology. AA'^e have them where they prove any dogma of the Christian disjjensation. 78. AVhis any recommendation made to yoii to pursue the study of the Scriptures for private edification? — Yes. (9. In what way, and by whom? — By the professors. I heard Dr. Dixon, when he was Professor of Scrij)ture, recommend it. I also heard Dr. Gafiiiey recommend it in some of his lectures. 80. That the Scriptures should be read for the private edification of each stxident? — Yes; in order not only that they should have a?) intimate knowledge of them, to make them available for sermons, but also for their own edification. [The WiO/ess wilhdreu'.] Saturday, 22xd October, 1858 . The Rev. Tatrich Ijaielle, further examined. 1. At what time in your course did you receive instniction on the commandment in the Decalogue “ Non Majchaheris?” — Towards the end of the fourth year’s divinity, after Christmas. 2. Had you read it previously to that? — Never. ,3. AAms it postponed to that period intentionallv, or was it by the accident of that being the year in rotation in which the Decalogue occurred? — That year, I think, it was more by accident. I had not read it previously. As a general rule, discussions upon that part of our course are reserved for the end of the course, for the third or fourth year’s divinity — it is never introdxiced into the two first classes. It was by accident I had not read it in my thh’d year’s divinity. 4. In what way is that question brought under the notice of the students? — Generally it is introduced by the preface — that it is a matter which must l)e studied with the greatest caution, and always studied after a moral preparation, after invoking the grace and assistance of God. I remember distinctly the professor. Dr. O'Reilly, from whom I received instruc- tions on that subject, perhaps occuj)ied the greater part of the class in cautiousness, directing us how to study the matter, cautioning us particularly to enter into the study of the subject with supeniatural preparation. He said that, of course, it was a matter which all divines discussed with the greatest reluctance; but as it miist be discussed, and as it Avas in itself disagreeable, it must he discussed in the most unobjectionable Avay. 21.s< October, 1803. Mr. .T. .M.adden, Divinity Stiulent. Parts of Scripture read. Reading of Scripture. Aleditation. Biblical lectures. Advice as to study of Scripture. 2’2nd October, 1803. 26. Rev. P. Lavelle, Dunboyne Student. Indelicate portions ot moral theology. Mode of instructing in. 278 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 2'2nd Oclohi'T, 1853. Tlev. 1’. Liivolle, Dimliciyne Siucleiit. Never intoi related in class upon this matter. Mode of teaching. Extractfroni Scavini. Subject touched in the spirit of tJiat extract. 27 Mr. T). Slattery, llivinity Student. AVitness from Keriy. Ills ])vcv!ous education. iModica! nt'cndance in Mayuootii. 5. AVivs YOU!’ tliird year your last year of tlie course? — No; my fom’tli year of divinity was my last year of divinity. ♦5. Then how did it hajtpen that it mi"ht have occurred in your third year? — I say that the discussion on the precepts of the Decalogue must have formed a portion of our business during my third year by another arrangement of the treatises. 7. Are the Commissioners to understand you to say that the j)articular instructions upon this ])art of the Decalogue would haye occurred in the third year, or would they be post- poned to tlic end of the course? — As to the circumstance of their being decidedly postponed from the thiril year to the fourth, I cannot say — I think the third year’s divines have not discussed that, I am sure the first and second year’s divines have not. 8. Had you taken deacons’ orders before you engaged in it? — No; sub-deacons’ orders. 9. If a young man sliould be suddenly called into the mission before he has completed all his theological courses, would special instructions be giyen in that department to him? — No; tlie students are never interrogated in class })iddicly ; and, in the second jilace, they ax’o advised to study the matter themselves discreetly, of course with all necessary caution, and jiarticularly with no view to curiosity, but from a sense of the obligation. 10. When you use the term “ discuss,” what do }'Ou mean by it — do you mean that the students engaged in a discussion, or that it Avas the subject of teaching?— -I meant to say tliat Avhen they Avere engaged in the matter the course adopted by Dr. O’Reilly Avas to giA’e, or dictate — that is, to read out sloAvly some reflections of his oavu on this subject, or selected from the best authors ; and Ave took doAvn those obseiwations of his, in Avi’iting, for our oaaui instruction aftenvards, but he neA*er interrogated us on the business on Avhich he thus dictated 11. That is when he came to that part of the course? — Yes; on the sixth precept. 12. He stated the matter Avithout interrogation? — Yes; himself, Avithout interrogation. 13. Without discussion’? — Yes. 14. "Will you h:iye the goodness to read and translate this passage in Scayini, at page 45 7 '? — “ Thirdly,Ut nxuiquam omnino materiam hanc eA’olvant,nisi necessitate compulsi ; tanto minus de ea seexxm inA’iceni loquantur, nisi vera adsit et iinpellens necessitas, et (piod fieri potest Latina semper lo(j^uela utantur excludentes omnem et qualemcunque importunam animi curiositatem. Scientes non esse necesse ut illico tanto cum discrimine uniA'ersam materiam assequantur.” Translation — “Thirdly, That they neA^er thoroughly im^estigate this business, if not obliged by necessity; and much less converse about it among themselA'es, Avitliout a real and tirgcnt necessity for so doing, and as far as possible alAAnys in the Latin language, setting aside everything bordering on curiosity, and keeping in mind that they are under no obligation of at once mastering the entire subject at so great a risk.” 15. Is that the spirit in Avhich this subject is touched upon by the ju’ofessor Avhen it is found necessary to bring it under the notice of the stxxdents at Maynootli? — Yes; I think I have stated that already. \Tlie Witness u-ithdrew.~\ Mr. Daniel Slattery, examined. 1. From Avhat part of the country do you come? — From the county of Kenw. 2. YFliere tlid you receiA’e yoxir preliminary education? — Principally in the tOA\m of Tralee. 3. At a priA’ate school ? — Yes. 4. A day school? — Yes. 5. What Avas the course of study there jxursued ’? — I read Avhat might be considei'ed a A'ery good course of classics, such a.s Avould be sufficient to enable me to pass in classics for the second class of humanity in IMaynooth. (5. Did yoxx attain that class at Maynooth? — In classics I did, but in mathematical science I Avas found AA’anting. 7. Did you receive any English education at Tralee? — Yes, and before I Avent to Tralee, in one of the national schools, in AAdiich I AA'as for a feAv years. I did not li\’e in the tOAvn of 'Fra lee — I liA'ed in the country, six miles from it. 8. Did you pursue any English studies AA'liexi at Tralee? — Yes; but I aaus not taught in that school — it AA'as in another school Avhich I sometimes attended. The school I attended at Tralee aa^s devoted exclusiA’ely to the classics — it Avas conducted by a sizar of Trinity College. 9. Was arithmetic or mathematics taught? — Not in that school. 10. Are you charged anything for the medical attendance that you recelA'e in the College? — I suppose the Commissioners are aAA'are that the students ai’e obliged, on enter- ing, to pay what is called a deposit. I paid £11 18.9.; I belieA^e the fee itself is not so much, but I got some bed clothes. I belieA'e if a student do not take the theological tnicts, that the fixed sxnn is about £8 8.9. I do not knoAv AA'hether any part of that is intended to pay the expenses of the medical men — some of the students imagine that it is — I do not knoAv AA'hether it is or not. 11. Is there any statement made to a student on coming in, when he makes his deposit, as to the different heads under Avhich that money is payable ? — There is no statement made. 12. That is the sum asked for? — Yes. I belieA'e there AA'as a regulation made last June at a meeting of the Board of Trustees that the students Avould not be examined even for admission until they paid that sum. For the last fetv years the superiors Avere not A'ery :\IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2 79 rigid in exacting that sum; so tliat sometimes the students were examined hefbre the payment of it, and it was only reqnii’ed that they should pay it in a year, or two years, as the circumstances of the case miglit he; hut last June, 1 have understood that the Board of Trustees made a regulation that no student wouhl he examined until he had paid that de])Osit, or entrance fee. 13. No part of the £20 that you receive per annum is subtracted for medical assistance? — No ; not from those who receive it. 14. You receive it in (juarterly piyments, do you not? — Yes. I think it was the impres- sion of the majority of the students that Government had provided for the support of the doctors. I do not know whether that is the case or not. 15. You si)eak of those who receive the £20 a year — how do you understand it to he limited? — I understand it to he limited to the 250 senior students, commencing with the seniors of the fourth year’s Divitiity Class, and going down, I helieve, hut the legal term “ senior students” includes mei’ely the Dnnhoyne students We understand hy senior students those students that are commencing with the fonr year’s Divinity Class, and going down to the third and second. 1(5. Were yon ever in the infirmary in Mavnooth ? — I was in the infirmary ; though, really, In^i^nl,^^y— IMcdical I was not a very constant \dsitor there, for the attractions were not very great, and Frovi- *“• dence blessed me with a gooil constitution. 17. What was the general opinion entertained hy the students of the medical attendance Witness’s opinion of. in the infirmary? — I would sooner speak from my own opinion than from general opinion. My own opinion is, that the attendance is not the best — hy no means good. Looking at the material structiu’c of the place, the Commissioners are aware that it is not fit at all for the purpose. 18. What defect do you think exists in the attendance? — There is one, which is rather a Defects of. considerable one — that is, occasional irregularity — 1 mean, as to the hom-s of attendance of the physicians in ordinary to the College. These are two — one is an old man, and, perhaps there should he some consideration for his age. I only speak of the fact: sometimes the doctor attends at half-past eleven, from that to twelve ; at other times there is not a doctor till two, or half-past one. The students are not aware which of the two, whether the father or the son is to attend on a certain day, and they must remain there in a ci’owded room with thirty or forty students, the nnmher varying with the season of the year, at a great deal of inconvenience ; and when the second class comes on at two o’clock, a student, who has spent two or three hours there, of course, cannot be prepared for the second class. It might hapjien that a student who wished to see the doctor would not he ill enough to go on the list, and, then, if he must go on the list he must he subjected to the inspection of the superiors, (which is not at all times a very agreeable thing in Maynooth), or attend the second class unprepared. I consider that an inconvenience. There is another thing. Besides these doctors who ordinarily attend, I know that the custom is, that a surgeon from Dublin shall he summoned upon any difficult case. Dr. Corrigan attends once a month, and when sent for. A case sometimes occurs that requires the })resence of a surgeon, and that surgeon Instance of surgeon does not attend. I have known a case of that myself, in which a fractured limb Avas set by called in, Dr. O'Kelly — I do not knoAv Avhich of them — some tAA O years ago, and I know that that limb “ ^ is at present causing considerable pain to the person. 19. Was the surgeon sent for on that occasion? — He Avas not. 20. Whose duty is it to send for the surgeon? — According to the present regime. Dr. Surgical attendance; O’Kelly must send for the surgeon. The student must go to Dr. O’Kelly and state his f’™cured. case, and it depends upon Dr. O’Kelly to send for the surgeon or not. Of course you can go to the superiors ; hut my OAvn experience of them is, that they attach considerably more AA'eight to the opinion of Dr. O’Kelly than to any statement that you may make ; so that ultimately you liaA-e no appeal from Dr. O'Kelly to the surgeon, and no Avay of getting the surgeon unless Dr. O’Kelly consents. I have knoAvn two cases, and I am sm*e if Surgeon Ellis Avere examined he could testify to this himself. 21. Does Dr. O’Kelly listen AA’ith kindness and patience to every statement made hy the students? — They are both \-ery kind, humane gentlemen, and are AA'illing, I am sure, to listen to any complaint. It is impossible that they Avould not be sometimes deceiA’ed. It might happen sometimes that a student AA'Ould like to go on the list, if he had a cold room, without being A’ery ill — he might Avish to go on the list in order to haA e a fire for the evening. There Avere some cases that happened some years ago Avhen Dr. O’Kelly’s suspicions might have been aroused by this ; and oftentimes he Avould not put a student on the list, and that Avould create a j)rejudice against persons by the fact of some persons having gone there without a sufficient cause. 22. Yoai Avould feel safer and more satisfied if you had the poAver of requesting that the Inconvenience whic surgeon should be sent for? — Yes. I liaA’e knoAvn cases in which students have sulfered results, considerable inconvenience by not having the surgeon ; and I have heard that Siu’geon Ellis, when he AA'as sent for some months after and saAv one case, expressed his astonishment that a surgeon Avas not sent for. I can testify to tAvo cases of fractured limbs myself. 23. Which were set by Dr. O’Kelly Avithout the assistance of a surgeon? — I do not know whether he set it or not — he set about it — but I knoAv that the gentleman Avithin the last feAv Aveeks has been complaining. 24. He has been complaining that the surgeon Avas not called in at the time ? — Yes. 25. Is not young Mr. O'Kelly in the habit of setting limbs for the Avhole country round there ? — I do not knoAv. I am very little acquainted Avith the country round. 22nd October, 1653. 27. Mr. I). Slattery, Divinity Student. 280 JilAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 22nrf October, 1853. 27. Mr. D. Slattery, Divinity Student. Medical department. Election of Commit- tee of Senior Divinity Class Practice sanctioned liy Trustees. How chosen. Junior house takes no part. Association with co- diocesans. How far a binding custom. Difference in the functions of the mo- nitors in the senior and junior house. 2G. Ill c:ise of a .sei’ious accident of that kind, as for instance, a student liavin tr a limb broken, is there any officer of tiie Colleire as distinart of the students? — It being a custom for those ])ersons, from the same dioceses, to meet together after dinner, and to walk together — that custom is looked upon as binding as any luile on the establishment. I know that a student, who, by even an accident, would not 1 e able to meet his diocesans, would feel it somewhat painful, and feel it his duty to make some kind of a})ology if he was found with one of another diocese. If they are taking anything like active exercise there is no apology necessary ; but after supper, or after breakfast, and after the class hour, there is no notice taken of it. 37. You have acted as monitor, have yon not? — No; except in the junior house in the prayer-hall. I was one of those who were called u])on to take charge of the students in the morning. 3resent state of things, a student, when he has a friend coming to the College, has no room to take him to in which to see him hut his own, where oftentimes there is no great accommodation for strangers. And the students e.xpected that now, Avhen there is so much accommoilation in the College, and when there are so many vacant rooms, some of which could be very easily converted to that j)uri)ose at a very triHing e.xpense, that the Board of Trustees would have given them a room for that j)iirposo. Even that trifle adds a little to the feud that already exists. 40. Have you ever a])j>lied to the authorities u})on that subject? — Yes; within the last few days we have a])plied on that subject. 41. Had you never a])])lied before? — No; before there was no accommodation. Until the students entered into the new buildings, it would have been unreasonable to make such aj)))lication. 42. Was it ever suggested to the authorities that the students would rather be interro- gated sc})arately about their diseases, than be asked (jnestions in the presence of their friends? — I really do not know. 43. Have the representatives of the students ever suggested to the deans that it would be more agreeable if the examination took ])lace not in the presence ol others? — I am not aware that they ever have. 44. It is not the })ractice, is it, at present for the medical man to send in a rei)ort to the President with respect to who are in the intirmarv, and what their comj»laints are? — It is the }>ractice of the medical men to give a list of names to some one of the superiors, or at least to the steward, who gives it tt) the su])criors. 45. Does he add any statement as to the nature of the illness? — No. 41). Does he re])ort to no one else but the steward, that he may know for whom he is to provide dinner? — There is one co]>y of the sick-list given to the steward, and another taken by the steward or a clerk to the snj)criors. 47. Do you mean the Bursar’s clei’k? — Yes. 48. The infirmarian is always a student, is he not? — Y’’es. 49. How is that system liked ? Would the students prefer having some one else in his place? — I never heard the students com])lain on that head. I think it is very useful that the students should haA’e some person (if, for instance, they got sick at night), appointed by the superiors, to go to the j)resent officer, or to send word to one of the su])eriors, and have the doctor brought. It is his duty to preside at the prayers of the students in the infirmary, and, unless they are confined to their beds, they must attend every morning and evening. It was for that purpose, principally, that this person was a])pointed. 50. Are you living in the new house now, or the old one? — The new. None of the students selected the new buildings until they were obliged to do so. The fourth year divines selected the old house. They had their selection according to seniority, and I think they acted xery ])rudently in that, for I do not knoAv of any student in the ucav building that is not complaining. 51. They complain of the damp there, do they not? — Yes, on a stormy day; and there is no ventilation neither: you cannot open your AvindoAVS for A'entilation on stormy or Avet days. Even though the AvindoAvs are closed, the rain comes in. 52. Do the Avind and rain come in through the AvindoAA's Avhen they are closed? — Yes; it is impossible almost to fix those AvindoAvs on that plan to make them Avater-tight : certaiidy they are far from being air-tight. 53. Is the cold of the chambers of the students complained of? — The cold is com])lained of there, because, Avhere yoAi haA'e moisture you Avill haA’e damj), Avhich is the Avorst species of cold in the ncAv buildings. In the other parts of the house I do not knoAV that the students complain. I think the rooms in the other parts of the establishment are A’ery comfortable. 54. Have the rooms in the old estal)lishment fire-places ? — There are some rooms in the old establishment that have, but not generally. In Avhat Avas called the old physic house, the front house, Avhere the chaj)el is, I believe there are chimney ])laces, but they lia\’e been closed up ; and the reason Avhy I think they haA’e been is in consequence of a petition sent by the Dunboyne students to the Trustees last year, I should think, for the purpose of giving them those rooms, as they consider that their present rooms are too small Avith a fire in them — indeed they are A’ery small — and the Dunboyne students, being alloAved fires, would not select rooms Avhere they could not have fires. 55. You stated that Dr. O’Kelly examined a student Avith a A’ieAV to ascertain AA’hether he came into the infirmary to aA'oid the cold in his chandjer, or from illness? — I do not knoAV that any thing I said might lead the Commission to think that he actually Avent through a cross-examination. All I said, I think, AV’as, that Dr. O’Kelly might be led to suppose that a case of the kind sometimes occurred. I knoAV he might haA’e reason, or at least I knoAV that he often acted as if he had reason, to suspect that students sometimes did come in such a way. 56. Will you state to the Commissioners AA’hether yoAi are aAA’are that there exists any Whether students general desire on the part of the students to get into the infirmary, to avoid the cold of their rooms ? — I do not know. They Avould like to aA’oid the cold ; but I think there are very cold of their rooms. feAv students that the infirmary has aiiA’ attractions for. I am sm'e that the great majority 2 0 New buildings ; state of. 282 MAYNOOTH COIVIMISSION. 22nd October, 1853. Mr. D. Slattery, Divinity Student. State of new build- ings. Treatise “DeEccle- sia.” Professor Crolly’s mode of teaching. Teaching as to allegiance. Distinct teaching as to the Pope’s tem- poral power. ■vTOulcI endure tlie severities of any winter sooner than go to such a place as that, where they run the risk of catcliing cold. 57. Do the students think that the state of the rooms in the new buildings is productive of permanent illness to them ? — Yes ; and it is quite clear, I think, that the rooms in the new buildings have been productive of most injurious effects to the health of the students — some of them. During the last winter the infinnary was crowded by students from the new buildings, none of whom, I am sure, went there with anything like feigned illness. It is impossible that a student could live there for a few months without catching cold. The rooms are exceedingly damp, the rain comes in freely in some of them ; they have no shut- ters to keep out the wind or cold. 58. Have you, in the course of your studies, been brought to the study of the work of Dr. Delahogue, “ De Ecclesia?'’ — Yes; and I think that I can claim credit for having studied that pretty accurately. 59. Was it lectured upon }>retty fully? — At the time T was reading it I had the good fortune of having Dr. Crolly as professor. Dr. Crolly is a gentleman who clears up every difficulty that occurs in every tract. Indeed all the professors do ; but Dr. Crolly always exerts himself to the utmost to elucidate every difficult and intricate question that occurs in any of the treatises read under him. (iO. In what year did you pass through that course under him? — Dr. Crolly, until lately, was professor of Second Year’s Theology. At the time that Dr. O’Reilly, the professor, joined the Jesuits, there was a vacancy occurred; and the usual formalities prescribed by the Statutes having been observed, a public competition took place for the chair that became vacant. Dr. O’Reilly was the fourth, and the other theological professors expected that they would be immediately moved up in regular order. I believe the Board of Trustees thought it would interfere with the course of studies of the students if they were to assent to a change at that period of the year, as it would be considered inconA'enient, when engaged in the middle of a tract, for one professor to leave the class, and another to come in ; and they entered into an arrangement, that the professors should not leave their respective classes until Christmas. Since then we touch upon distinct business entirely. Dr. Crolly, conse- quently, was my professor during that year until Christmas, during the entire time we were reading the treatise “ De Ecclesia.” 61. You w'ent pretty fully through that Treatise, did you not? — Yes, I think so; we read all those propositions that now-a-days are worth attending to. There are some that might have caused a great deal of noise in the middle ages, but which now are very little attended to. We I’ead the tract as it is generally read in Catholic schools now-a-days. 62. Was any distinct teaching given to you upon the question of allegiance? — I do not kiiow that I ever hoard the question broached expressly by any professor in class. I think that the professors in jSIaynooth imagine that we are all acquainted with the doctrine of Catholicity upon that subject, and are, consequently, aware that every Catholic owes alle- giance to the government under which he lives, no matter wdiat form that government may assume ; and as the professors in theology must have been perfectly aware that every student swore to observe that allegiance, and that none of them expressly wanted to be taught their duties years after they had taken the oath. 66. Was there any teaching upon this point — “ That the allegiance which they owe to the Royal Majesty cannot be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever?” — I I’ecollect there is a proposition in Dr. Delahogue’s Treatise under that head. We, in that year, owing to there being a little interruption in the course of studies, in consequence of some days being devoted to a public competition for the vacant chair, had not so much time, but that was one of the propositions that was touched upon, but only touched upon, by Dr. Crolly. He did not call the students in class upon that proposition. I recollect Dr. Crolly teaching what almost every Catholic theologian now-a-days teaches, even in Rome — that the Rope lias no power, direct or indirect, to interfere with the temporal concerns of any country, in any part of the globe. I think, so far as I could judge, he alluded to the opinions held by Leibnitz, and some others, even by Protestant writers, that the power which was claimed by the Popes, and which was recognized in the middle ages by nearly everv government in Europe, was exerted oftentimes for a very beneficial purpose, in sup- pressing seditions and tumults, which ■were waged incessantly by those different barons and chiefs ; and that that power which the Pope claimed was nearly unifonnly exercised in striving to imja’ove the condition of the great bulk of the people, who were miserable vassals of the barons in those ages. But so for as regards the present state of affairs. Dr Crolly stated, that the idea of allo'wing such a power to the Popes was so absurd, that it was unworthy of the attention of any rational man. In fact, he considered it unworthy of his attention to set about refuting it at all. The power has been so distinctly denied by all the Catholics of this country, and by the bishops at different times (and there has been a cele- brated Treatise written on it by the celebrated Dr. Doyle, in his letter to Lord Liverpool), that no Catholic now thinks it worth his while to trouble himself with it. So far from its being a Catholic dogma, no Catholic theologian now vindicates the temporal power of the Popes to interfere, directly or indirectly, unless in so far as spiritual interests are concerned. They have no power to interfere with the allegiance of any subjects, or power to absolve them. No professor ever recognized it; and, on the contrary, they most distinctly and emphatically deny that the Pope has any such power. 64. Did Dr. Crolly make those ohservations at the time, when, in consequence of the conciu’sus, the matter was not more particularly enlarged upon ? — Yes, he did ; that was the period at which I read the Treatise “ De Ecclesia” under him. In fact, I do not think MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 283 27 . Mr. I). Slattery, Divinity Student. to that any of tliem in Maynootli go furtlier into it; and, from wliat I have heard, the otlier 22nd October, 1853 professors used not to touch upon it at all, because they considered it useless, and that the students’ time could be devoted to more important tilings than refuting the ojiinions of some absurd men who wrote u])on this matter, the opinions being now rejected by almost all Catholics, no person now-a-days hohling, and no one in the Roman Colleges maintaining, the right of the Pojie in that manner. ()5. Are you aware that there is a sjiecial jirovision in the Statutes, which ought to be Teaching as read twice a-year publicly, in these words: “ Let the Professor of Dogmatic Theology stre- ^ nuouslv exert himself to impress on his class, that the allegiance which they owe to the Royal Majesty cannot be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever?” — I never heard of that Statute previously to this moment. I know that the jii’actice is not such. The Statutes wei’e made for a certain end, and that that end is already gained, the law ought also to cease, and the obligation of the law. There is no necessity for impressing such a thing at all, as they are already impressed long before they entered the College; and it would be, jierhaps, an insult to the feelings of those jiersons, who tiiok the oath five years ago, now to set about telling them their duties on the matter. It would be an insult to me to tell me that, five years after I had taken the oath; and the state of jmblic opinion is quite diflei’ent, now that many jirejmlices are removed regarding the opinions of Catholics ; and no rational man wouhl attem})t to imjmte to the Catholics doctrines, which a great many well-disposed men did in 1820. No man, that knows anything of the Catholics, would attempt to say that the Catholics do not consider themselves bound by the oath of allegiance. \_The Witnesn uiihdreiv.\ ]\Ir. James FlaiuieU;/ and Mr. Patrick Hurley, examined. 1. (To ]\Ir. Flannelly.) From what part of the country do you come? — From tlic diocese of Tuam. 2. F rom what county ? — Mayo. 3. Where were you educated before you entered the College at Maynootli ? — Partly in in the ])arish wherein I was born, and partly in St. elarlath’s College, Tuam. My native parish is Rallinrobe. 4. What education did you receive in P>allinrobe? — I was prepared to pass for the highest class of humanity, as it was taught in St. Jarlath’s. The course taught then, in the Humanity Class, was part of Homer, a part of Livy, Horace, and Juvenal, Longinus, Epictetus, and Tacitus. 5. Who was the schoolmaster at Ballinrobe ? — My first classical teacher was a Mr. Rooney, and the next a Mr. Malone. 6. How long were you at Ballinrobe school ? — There Avere a great many interruptions in my course Avith those tAvo gentlemen. I aa us for about nine months AAuth the latter gentle- man, and, I think, about tAvo and a-half years Avith the other. 7. Were you taught arithmetic at Ballinrobe? — Yes. 8. Up to Avhat rule in arithmetic Avere you taught in Ballinrobe? — I think I was taken over the Avhole course of Voster’s Arithmetic, Avithout undertaking any other business than spelling, reading, and AATiting. y. Were you taught fractions and decimals? — No decimals in Voster. 10. But in Thompson’s? — Yes. 11. AVere you taught decimals from Thomjison’s book in Ballinrobe? — Yes. 12. Did you enter into the highest Humanity Class in St. Jarlath’s? — Yes. 13. Were you a boarder? — Yes; an ecclesiastical boarder, not a lay boarder. 14. How long AA'ere you at St. -Tarlath’s College? — About a year and flA^e months. 15. Were you taught arithmetic at St. Jarlath’s? — I Avas taught the science of arithmetic fi’om TA'son's Algebra. 16. Up to AA’hat rule? — To quadratic eiiuations. 17. So that you could soh’e quadratic eipiations Avith some readiness? — Yes. 18. You Avere not taught conic sections, Avere you? — No. 19. Were you taught any books of Euclid? — Yes; about the fifth and sixth books of Euclid. Euclid. I fell in about the middle of the year. 20. Is the fifth book of Euclid read in St. Jarlath’s? — ^No; but it was at that time 21. Is it not noAv? — I cannot say; but I knoAv it ceased to be taught the folloAving year, for the course Avas partially changed since then, to make it more preparatory for Maynooth. Darre s Geometry became the class-book in hlaynooth also. 22. What education in English literature had you receiA’ed in St. Jarlath’s? — AVe were English, made to Avrite English composition, and to account for it grammatically and rhetorically. 23. Hoav often did you receiA'e such instructions? — TAvice a week aa'b were taught that we might translate Greek and Latin into English, and Ave Avex'e taught it A^irtually through- out the Avhole time. 24. Were there any books that you Avere obliged to read AAdiile at St. Jarlath’s? — Yes, there were some. I Avas obliged to read, for historical purposes principally, the history of England. 25. Lingard’s England? — No; the class-liook Avas Goldsmith’s; and Goldsmith’s Greece and Rome were read — those for classic.il pm’poses. 2 0 2 28 . Mr. Flannelly and Mr. Hurley, Divinity Students. First witness from Mayo, diocese of Tuam. Ilis education pre- viously to entering Maynooth. At Ballinrobe. At St. Jarlath’s Col- lege. 284 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. l>2nri Ot tuber, 1853. 28 . Mr. Flannelly .and Mr. Hurley, Divinity Students. French. Second witness from Clare. His education pre- viously to entering iMaynootli. In Greek. Arithmetic. Algebra. J'inglisli. French. State of infirm.ary. 26. AVero there any English hooks tliat yoti were obliged to read for the purpose of acquiring a knowledge of the English language? — Yes; Murray’s large English Grammar, and Blair's Lectures on Elocution. 27. M^ere you taught from Blair’s Lectures in St. Jarlath’s? — Yes; twice a week. 2S. M"ere you taught any logic at St. Jarlath’s'? — No ; because the Logic Class was given up just in my time, in consequence of the augmentation of the INIaynooth grant. 2h. In what class did you enter at INIaynooth? — I entered for the second Humanity Class, called also the Rhetoric Class ; but I was made to begin the first class. 60. You went through the eight years at IMaynootli? — Yes. 61. Is there a rule of the diocese to that effect? — There was at that time. 62. But it does not exist now, does it ? — There have been some departures from it. 66. IMay a gentleman from Tuam now enter the Physics Class if he is sufficiently jire- ])ared? — Perhaps he may retpiire esjiecial permission for it; hut there have been instances of gentlemen entering for any class that they were competent to enter. 64. Were you taught any French at St. Jarlath's? — I was; but it was not a principal class there. 6o. How many lessons a week did you learn in it'? — There was a lesson every day, but only a short one, as one hour was devoted to five or six things — geometry, astronomy, and algebra, and some other minute things that I cannot remember. 66. So that the French was not taught in a manner to be of much use to you? — It was taught by the professor of science. 67. Did you understand French pretty well wlien you went to IMaynootli'? — I did not; I was able to read any exercise with the aid of a grammar and dictionary. 68. (To IMr. Hurley.) — What county do you come from? — From the county of Clare, in IMunster. 69. At what school were you educated before you went to Maynooth ? — In my native town of Killaloe, conducted by a classical teacher educated at Trinity College. 40. AYhat was his name'? — Mr. Toohey. 41. Mhis it a day school at which you Avere educated? — Yes. 42. How many scholars attended at that time ? — On the average, about forty. 46. Was that the only school that you attended '? — I attended other schools when a boy ; I entered Maynooth very young. 44. But was that the only classical school that you attended ? — No ; I commenced the ele- ments of Latin and Greek with another master, but I Avas about three years going to school Avith Mr. Toohey. 46. Did A'our family live near to the toAvn of Killaloe? — In the tOAA'ii of Killaloe. 46. All those thirty or forty stvidents Avere day scholars, Avere they? — Yes; from thetoAvn and a1)Out. 47. What education did you receive in the Greek language at Killaloe? Avdiat books did you read? — I learned all the usual authors, Lucian, Zenophon, Homer, and some of Epic- tetus, Demosthenes, and Longinus. 48. Did you read any of the Ncav Testament'? — Yes. 49. IIoAv much of it? — I think the Gospel of St. MattheAV. 50. Not the Gospel of St. John'? — I think not. 51. Did A'ou receive that classical education Avith the intention of entering MaAmooth? — Yes. 52. Had the other scholars at that school the same intention'? — Not all; some had an intention of entei'Ing other jirof'essions. 56. Did some inteiul to enter Trinity College? — Yes. 54. Were yoAi taught any arithmetic at that school? — No; in my young days I leanit the rudiments of arithmetic, a little of jyactice, short accounts, and the common rule of three. 56. Were you taught aiiy fractions'? — Yes. 6(). Decimals? — Not decimal fractions — fractions only as they entered into the rule of practice. 67. No vulgar fractions by themseh’es? — No. 68. Did you read any algebra ? — No. 69. Did yoAi read none before you entered the College? — No. 60. In Avhat class in the College did you enter? — I passed for the Rhetoric Class in classics, Imt not knoAving the scientihe ]>art required, I Avas put into the first class of humanity. 61. Were a'Ou taught am' English, specifically as such, at the Killaloe school? — Yes, the three histories of Greece, Rome, and England — I think, all Goldsmith’s, by Pinnock. 62. Ibd you read any other books at school? — No ; except the course of classics; JuA'enal, Horace, and Virgil. 6>6. Were thev translated into English'? — Yes; and accounting for them by the rules of ]irosody and exercises in Latin. 64. Did vou Avrite auA" English exercises Avhen you Avere at school? — No ; not exercises in English composition — no essaA’S. 66. AVere you taught anv' French at the school? — I AA'as, but I neglected it. 66. Have you cAer been obliged to go to the infirmary? — I liaAe been there, I believ’e, about six Aveeks at different times. 1)7. IlaA'e you ever suffered from auA’ serious illness'? — Yes, once or fAvice, but I Avas very Avell attended to. I cannot complain of the attendance at the infirmary. 68. AA’hat medical man attended you? — Dr. O'Kelly. 69. Have a'Ou been in the infirmarv? — Yes. 285 :^IINUTES OF EVIDENCE, - 70. Have you had auv serious illue.ss? — No; colds. 71. Are colds very ])revaleut iu the College ? — Yes, they arc. 72. Are there any fevers? — No; except iu certain times of the year. The atmosphere is believed to he very damp, and in the new range of buildings there is no means for heating the buildings at all. . 73. Is that inconvenience much felt by the students in their rooms? — It is; even in mild weather the walls have been (luite damj). 74. Do you live in the new buildings? — No. 75. Do you both live in the old buildings? — Yes. 7(). Are you iu the third or fourth year of divinity? — We are both iu the fourth year. 77. At what time do you rise in the morning? — Six o’clock. 78. All the year round ? — No ; there is a (diange made in the snnimer months, ])erha]is, commencing at April, in order to prc})are for the summer examinations, then we get up at five. 7!). Do you know what school there is now at Killaloe — is it the same as the one you School in Killaloe. attended ? — I do not think it is. 80. Is there any other school in the county of Clare? — Yes, in Ennis there is a very respectable school ; and if I were studying now for Mayiujoth, 1 should jirohably go there ; it is ke])t by Mr. Fitzsimons; a hoarding school. 81. Is it a day school too? — Yes. 82. That is iu the county town? — Yes. 83. Is there any other school in the diocese ? — I suppose there are other respectable schools, at least, in the towns. 84. Classical schools? — Yes. 85. In what town? — In Nenagh, which is in the diocese of Killaloe, and in Kilrush, I think. 8(5. (To l\Ir. Flannelly) — Is there any schools now at Rallinrobe? — I think there is. One School in Ball inrobe, of the gentlemen already mentioned, INIr. Ilooney, is endeavouring to hold a school there still. 87. Has the school declined? — I think it has. 88. Do you know of any other schools in the diocese ? — I am not very certain. I think there should be a school in Castlebar and in Westport, a very respectable school. 89. You are not aware whether there is or not? — I am not certain, but I presume there is, because ])crsons come qualified from that neighbourhood. 90. (To Mr. Hurley) — Is there any statement that you wish to make on behalf of the Grounds of complaint students on any point? — I would feel delicate in making any statement on behalf of the students, but just from my own ex})erience, I will state how I felt myself. I do believe that there is, to some extent, a slight discontent and dissatisfaction among the students with regard to very minor things, and one of the causes that I attribute it to is, that there is no fixed tribunal to wdiich the students can refer in a case of this kind. The Board of Trustees Want of fixed meet twice a year, and they really do not enter into the minute details of the College in tribunal to appeal to. order to remove any little grievance. Then, if the students a]i])ly to the President, for instance, with regard to any moral wants of the students he refers them to the Trustees ; and as to the physical state of the house, if the students go to the bursar he refers them to the Board of AVorks, which is looked upon as a regular myth down there, and from this want of pro])cr authority, from year to year, things do accumulate, and there are these little causes which do affect the convenience of the house 91. You stated something with resp)ect to discipline, did you not? — I do think that there Excellence of the is a perfection of disci] dine that is not equalled in any other College in the world for so ‘^i^cipline. many; there is that solid ]>iety and virtue in the house which I do not think exists in any other ]dace in the world — that is my own conviction. I wish to add this ex]danation, that the Board meets twice a year, and when the students have a general statement to make, they leave it to some six gentlemen, called a committee, whom they select. 92. That is perfectly well known to the College authorities, is it not? — Yes; the Boards cannot be addressed, unless by some persons drawing up a statement. 93. The fact of there being a Committee is known to the authorities of the College, and Committee of senior to the Trustees? — Yes; I do not know whether they know it by that name, but the jn’actice Students, is known to prevail. 94. You think that the dean knows perfectly well what day an election takes ]dace, and Known to the who is elected? — I do not know that he knows wdien, but he knows right well that those autlmrities. things take j)lace, because some of the deans once had something to do uith it. There is no frxed day, but if they think some gentlemen more competent than others to draw uj) this statement, they select them. That system of election l)y ballot is to avoid any ])ersonal altercation : it is considered the easiest way of doing it, and pitching upon some competent persons. 95. There is no canvassing of the students, is there? — No; it is not a thing to be can- vassed. — I wish to state that we do not come here to make any com])laint, but simply because we were summoned. Our business, as a Committee, was only to draw upj a state- ment to the Boards, when required. 96. You mean that you do not come forward to make any statement upon this subject of complaint, but yoix come in obedience to a summons ? — I do not come foiuvard in virtue of being a member of the body avIio drew up the statement to the Boards : I come foi’ward now to explain what is meant by the Committee, 97. (To Mr. Flannelly.) — Did you receive any specific instruction from the Professors of 21nd Octoher, 1853. Mr. Flannelly and Mr. Hurley, Divinity Students. 286 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 22nd October, 1853. "isT Mr. Flaimelly and Mr. Hurley, Divinity Students. Toacliing as to allegiance. Treatment of heretics. Dunboyne Estab- lishment. Whether an object of desire to the students. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to temporal power maintained in the College. Delicate jiortions of Moral Theology. Not read by first ■witness. Second witness exammed as to. Dogmatic Theology on the subject of the allegiance due to Her Majesty, or in what por- tion of the course would it occur? — The instruction on that point is so general, that I can- not call it specific. I have a general impression on my mind that I owe allegiance to Her Miijesty. S18. In the treatise “ De Ecclesia” would the same question occur? — It comes in incidentally there in consequence of objections and imputations made against the Catholic religion, saying that it does away with the allegiance of the subject to the sovereign. It is discussed there to meet that objection. 99. What has been the doctrine taught at IMaynoOth on that point? — The doctrine is, that the doctrine impiited to Catholics is a misrepresentation, or a misapprehension, or a misunderstanding. The positive doctrine is, that every subject owes allegiance to the de facto sovereign, and a fortiori to the de jure sovereign. 100. And that no j)ower can relax that obligation? — No, until the party violate that con- tract inter se. I cannot remember the precise words or the precise proposition. 101. Has any instruction been given to you specifically as to the light in which you should regard the various Bulls as to the treatment of heretics? — The special treatment of that belongs to Canon Law, a higher business than ours, professionally. We get the general princi])les of the Catholic doctrine, and under these we get sufficient instruction on that ])oint. j\Iy impression is, that the Church, particulai'ly the universal Church, does not claim power to ])i’osecute, as a Church, those who theologically differ from it, pro- vided they do not misbehave politically. Then it is another question. If they oppose the Church, the constitutional Church, (not as a Church, but as a community), can oppose them constitutionally, if the Church constitutionally can do so. 102. Are you likely to be a candidate for the Dunboyne Establishment? — I do not think I am, or that there is any great chance for it. I was not able to qualify myself in the last year’s theology, so as to come up to the ideas of my professors, of the necessary qualification. 103. Was that from ill health? — Principally from ill health. 104. Is it generally considered a desirable thing to be elected on the Dunboyne Estab- lishment, or do the students prefer being called into the dioceses on their missions ? — The general impression, so far as 1 can testify to it, is, that the students are anxious to qualify themselves, if they are able ; but then there is another drawback against it, and that is, that some persons, endeavouring to do so — the course being so long, and the study so severe — get into ill health, and they are forced to give up, and some of them die. 105. But they ju’efer getting on to the Dixnboyne Establishment to going on the mission at once, do they not? — Yes. After four years’ theology they scarcely know any thing more thaxi just the right mode of studying it. There are so many tracts, and so much collateral business, that they have only just created an appetite for theology at the end of the four years, which they gratify on the Dunbo\uie Establishment. 10(). Was this proposition maintained at Maynooth, “ Clu’istus Petro et successoribus ejus,” Ac. ? — It was maintained. 107. You ai’e aware that objections have been made to that ])roposltion by some ultra- montane writers? — Yes, I am. 108. You are aware, are you not, that those objections have been discussed and refuted by Dr. Delahogue? — Yes. 109. Those views are entertained by all the professors, are they not? — Yes. 110. Have you come into contact, in your class, with those parts of the tract of Bailly which treat of offences against the sixth commandment, “Non Majchaberis ?’’ — 1 never opened that tract at all. I read a tract on the decalogue in my first year’s divinity. We jiassed over the sixth ])reco])t altogether, as a matter fitted to be treated at the end of our course, when we should be I’equired to know something about it 111. Is that the general course pursued? — Yes, so far as I know. 112. Was that instruction given in class? — Yes, we were recommended to do so. We got some general instructions iqxon the heinousness of crimes, but with regard to the details required wo were recommended to pass them over until the end of our course, and up to this time, though near the end of my course, I have not entered into it yet. Our present jxrofessor told us, at the opening of this year, that he would make his own observations iq)on it, and that he would not examine us at all. The only other allusion made to it was in the last year’s course, the tract being on penance The professor then specially recom- mended it, saying nothing more about it, except justif)'ing the teaching of it: he only justified the teaching of it by Catholic theologians as a dogmatic question, and a clergyman knowing it as for a professor of any other science to learn it, however revolting to their feelings. 113. Is it ultimatelv taught in class, or is it left to private reading? — I have no expe- rience of its being studied or taught, but I was told at the beginning, and I expect we shall be told by the professor, what study it will be requisite to give it before we go on the mission. 114. Before you ai’e ordained? — Yes. 115. Are you in Deacon’s Orders? — Yes. 111). You are not in Priest’s Orders? — No. 117. (To Mr. Hurley.) — Have you in your studies been brought into contact with those treatises which deal with the sins committed against the sixth commandment ? — It does come under a course ; that is, the matter of the sixth precept does come under the theological course of Moral Divinity, but, at the same time, it is not at aU a subject of importance to IMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 287 tho students ; it is never entered into. I luivo been noAv four years at theology, and I liave never met any thing indelicate in those hooks; and the professors, generally, and our own sense of virtue, make us postpone the study of those matters till it is absolutely retjuired. I think there are very few students in the house that scarcely ever enter into the necessary indelicacies of the subject. 118. Is it idtimately a matter of ju’ivate study, or of advice on the part of the professor? — Yes ; it is just a matter of counsel on the part of the jirofessor to postpone this study, and not to enter into it until it is required for the j)urposes of the mission. 119. Ultimately, Avhen it is re([uisite, is it a matter of private study or a matter of class teaching? — It is not a matter of class teaching. We expect that Dr. Murray will, this time, give some lectures in as ])riident and cautious a maimer as he can for our future con- duct on the mission ; hut we ne^■e^ enter into it in our studies. The most delicate student can never he offended or hurt. 120. Are you in orders? — Yes; in Holy Ordei’S, in Deacon’s Orders. 121. Not in Priest’s Orders? — No. 122. In regard to the question of the temporal power of the Pojie, you have been taught the doctrines of Dr. Delahogue on the subject? — Yes; it has been sometime, now. I have not a very distinct recollection of the question, but I think, upon that, as to the doctrine taught in Maynootli, it is an exjdoded question, a thing of no importance at all; it has been, altogether, not made a question of any imjiortance in the class. ]\iy own view of the ([uestion is — though I do not look upon it as not important — that the spiritual power cannot interfere in a tenqioral matter, ///rg dirino, and has no right to interfere; but, as to entering into the thing, I do not remember distinctly the state of the ([uestion ; but it is not a matter of importance in the class business. That is my own view of the question. I do hold, and believe, that the Pope, with the sjdritual authority, has no right to interfere in temporal matters. 123. Directly or indirectly’? — By circumstances it may be indirectly, but not as theo- logians say. Jure divlno. By the force of circumstances, it might be as in the middle ages. 124. But, under present circumstances, what is your opinion? — I believe, then, that the spiritual authority cannot interfere in temporal matters by any right. 125. Not in such a way as to bind the conscience? — Not in such a way as to interfere with sins. 126. Do you intend to be a candidate for the Dunboyne Establishment? — No. 127. Is it thought to be an advantage to be a Dunboyne student? — In some cases it is; but I do not think it a great desideratmn after a long course. 128. You have uoav four years instead of three years of theology? — Yes. 129. At the end of the four years, is a young man pretty well exhausted with study? — Yes ; especially when he graduates up from the first class of humanity. 130. Do the Dunboyne students remain during the whole of their three years, or do they generally go away'? — As a general rule, they do remain for the end of their course, but then circumstances intervene ; for instance, the bishop of their diocese may want them to fill up some other situation in some other seminary. 131. At present there is only one student in his third year? — Yes; but that does not pro- ceed from their leaving the establishment ; it is a mere lottery. It has happened that this year there was only one place vacant, not because they left it. 132. Is there any other matter you wish to bring under the notice of the Commissioners? — I wish to be allowed to state, with regard to the fixtures of the house, the laying out of the walks, and various other things, we are under the impression that needless expense is incurred. It is a matter of notoriety, that the affairs of the infirmaiy could be conducted in a manner much more satisfactory to the students. I think that the students are under the impression, that their convenience is not always sufficiently consulted by the superiors, and that there are many little things in the economy of the house in which their views and feelings should be consulted. 133. Are there any matters connected with your recreation, and the time allowed you, which can at all reasonably be objected to ? — I think it is rather an injury to be too sedentary, to have the students altogether confined to study and to class for three hours in the day, consecutively, that is, from twelve to three. There are two hours of study and preparation for class, class immediately follows, and in five minutes they go into dinner, without the opportunity of having a single breath of air. 134. Are they not allowed time to wash their hands before dinner? — No; merely five minutes elapse betwnen class and dinner. 135. Do they not take exercise immediately after dinner? — Yes ; but there is half an hour of study immediately after breakfast allowed for preparing for the first class, which comes off at half-past ten, and that could be very usefully transferred to half an hour before dinner, because I think that the time before the first class is so short, that the students cannot enter into a difficult lesson ; and I think, that if an hour was given for a run, or a walk, before dinner, it would be very useful. 136. When does the half hour occur? — Breakfast first comes off at nine, it takes about a quarter of an hour, and then the students have recreation from that to ten ; the bell rings then and the students are in twenty-five minutes — really this half-hoiu’ is not so important for preparation for class, they can only give a mere look over the business — and I suggest that this half hour should be taken out of the study or silence, and changed for half an hour’s recreation before three, that is, from half-past two to tluee. 22n'>. W^ere clergymen then educated there? — Not then (i. W^as it then a boarding school? — Yes; and a day school. 7. Wdiat was taught there? — Classics, English, mathematics, figures, and English composition. 8. It was not an ecclesiastical seminary ? — No. y. Is there any ecclesiastical seminary there now? — No. 10. Are the students from the county of Kerry prepared in voluntary schools? — Y^es. 11. W*hat did you pay there? — The charge for the day scholars was four guineas a year. 12. Wliat was the charge for a boarder? — £27. 13. How many boarders and how many day scholars were there then in the school? — Six boarders in my time, and about thirty day scholars. 14. At what period did they enter? — About twelye, thirteen, and fourteen, and they remained to about seyenteen and eighteen. 15. AVhat age were you when you entered? — About thirteen, and I remained there two years. IG. As a day scholar? — Y’’es. 17. How many tutors and masters were there in the school? — Three. 18. W^hat did they teach? — One taught English and mathematics; the others taught classics; and one taught French to any person who chose to learn it. 19. Did you learn English? — Y"es. 20. Did you learn French there? — No. 21. Does that school exist now? — No. 22. Is there any school now in Killarney? — I think there is. 23. Is it a boarding or a day school? — I think it is a day school. 24. Do you know of any other school in the diocese ? — YYs, there is a classical school in Cahirciveen, and another in Tralee, and one also in Ardfert, I think. 25. How many exercises did you write in your English course in Maynooth College? — I cannot say, with any thing like accuracy, but about seyen or eight in each year, I suppose, together with the })ieccs that were given by the professor for some hours in the year; they may vary, perhaps two or three in the year. 2G. Is that in class ? — Yes, about seVen, I think, during each year — that is, fourteen entirely during the time I studied under the Professor of English Composition. 27. About liow many exercises did you make in your humanity and rhetoric years in classics? — I should say about four or five in the humanity year, and, perhaps, about the same in the rhetoric year. I am not quite certain. 28. Were those all in Latin? — No; in Greek and in Latin. 29. Did you make any exercises in English composition in the English Class I — I did. 30. I low many sermons have you preached diu’ing your time ? — Three : two before I became a Dunboyne student, and one after. 31. Have you much leisure as a Dunboyne student for private reading.'' — Yes; far more than if I were an ordinary student. 32. Should you have time, consistently with yoiir other studies, to take some share in the instruction of the Humanity Classes? — By working, of course, very hard, I might have time; but as it would require more detailed labour and accuracy to prepare for tbe Humanity Class, I think, consistently with any thing like fair attention to the Dunboyne studies, I would not have very much time. Bv working harder I might have time, but I could not devote any thing like attention to reading Engbsli works, or works not pertinent to the Dunboyne business. 33. AYhat is the absolute attention required per day by the special studies in the I\I1NUTES OF EVIDENCE. 289 Dunboync Estiiblislimont ? — The absolute attention is tins — tbe Dunl)ojno students, ■wlicn they are ordered to prepare upon any ([uestion, study, I should .say, about five or six hours a (lay till the conferenee comes on, and they eoiierally o-ct two days to ])repare. '’J'liey study, I believe, about twelve or fourteen liours for each conference, tlie others do not study so hard ; but all, I sliould think, devote, at least, three or four hours each day, so as to ac([uire a fair knowledge of the subject, though i\ot so accurately as those who are required to be ])rcpared s])ocially for the conference. <)4. d'hen a certain time is given to Hebrew, is there not? — Yes; that occurs only once a week, but the language is so difficult that it re(|uires a good deal of time. 'riien, you have ecclesiastical history to study, have you not? — Yes; and canon law. d(). Altc^gether the time of the Dunboyne students is pretty well filled up? — Very well filled up. o7. Still you have some leisure for your own private studies and reading? — Yes. 88. Is a Dunboyne studentship generally desired among the students? — I should say it is generally desired by all who are qualified to enter on it. o9. It is not generally thought, at the end of the usual course, that the health and spirits are so exhausted as not to make the students desire to lunx^ three additional years’ study? — Not generally so. 40. Would a Dunboyne student voluntarily undertake the task of assisting in the instruc- tion of the junior classes with or without additional remuneration? — I cannot speak for the body; but I should think they might be induced to undertake the task if they wei’e u'ell remunerated, but I know it would be A’ei’y severe on them. 41. In the course of priA-ate reading do many of the students recur to classical studies or to studies connected Avith the learned languages generally, independently of the j>oints absolutely necessary for their classes? — Generally speaking, they do not. 42. Do they read any Greek except mere references? — No; except mere reference? to Scripture, or to a ]«ssage from the fathei’s. 48. Do any of the students take up the study of the fathers as a regular study? — No. 44. Is any special instruction given u])on the subject of the limits betAveen the temporal and spiritual poAver? — Yes; the professor under Avhoin I studied the Church tract, in Avhich this question occurs, taught expressly that the Pope had no temporal poAver Avhatever, direct or indirect, OAmr any temporal soA'ereign,and no ciA'il or temporal jurisdiction AvliateA^er ; that Ins j)OAA'er aaus solely and oxclusiA'ely spiritual. He maintained, as in fact all theologians maintain at the present day, that the su])position of temporal sovereignty, belonging to the Pope, is purely chimerical — there is no authority AAdiateA’cr in Scripture for it, and no theologian holds that opinion in the present day. 45. You Avould hold, Avould you not, that any instruction from the Pope, ujAon matters not spiritual, Avould not Im^e a binding effect upon the conscience of a Roman Catholic? — Not the least, unless connected Avith his divine mission. 46. What doctrine is taught respecting the spiritual power of the Church OA’er heretics tliat are tolerated by the State, and that ueA’er Avere baptized Avith the intention of belong- ing to the Roman Catholic Church? — The doctrine taught is, that the Church does not Avish to exercise any jurisdiction AAdiich she may claim OA'er such persons. 47. IlaA'e the Dunboyne students any room for the reception of such friends as might call upon them? — No reception room AAdiateA’er. 48. llaA'C they no priA’ate room except their bed-room? — No; Avhich is their OA^ery room, sitting-room, bed-room, study, and eA*ery thing. 49. IlaA’e they a room for joint study distinct from the lecture-room? — No, tliCA' liaA'e not. They study in their bed-rooms — they haA^e only a conference or class-hall. 50. llaA’e you no room corresponding to that of the other students?— No. 51. Woidd there be any objection among the Dunboyne students to haA-e one common reading-room comfortably furnished for themselves in AAdiich they could deposit their books ? — They Avould feel it a great adAuntage if they had a reading-room containing good English Avorks. 52. There are certain parts of the treatises of the College AAdiich deal Avith the sins committed against the sixth precept — are those made the subject of public lecture, or in A\diat AA'ay are they treated? — The professor, himself, is in the habit of giAung one lecture on them, and he uses the greatest caution and circumspection in speaking of the matter in consequence of the nature of the subject — but the students are iieA^er interrogated upon the matter of the sixth precept. They are furthermore advised to be most cautious, particularly in their inquiries if they are priests, of penitents regarding this matter. The greatest caution is taken, and the utmost regard for the delicacy of the feelings of the priest, himself, and the penitent is inculcated, and also in the ditferent treatises AAdiich treat of the matter; though the treatises may enter into detailed particulars they must still caution them to be most chary of any thing like accurate inquhdes upon the subjec^t. 53. In any part of your course AA^as any adAuce giA-en to you Avith respect to not reading that matter until an adA'anced j^eriod of your studies? — Yes; I AA^as lectui'ed on the subject by two professors. Dr. Crolly and Dr. Murray, and both inculcated the necessity of defer- ring the study of the matter till the end of the course Avhen it Avould be necessary to do so. 54. Are you in Holy Orders? — Yes; Deacon’s Orders. 55. Since when liaAm you been so? — ^For more than a year — nearly tAvo years. 56. Hoav long liaA’e you been on the Dunboyne Establishment? — This is my second year. 57. When did you obtain Deacon’s Orders? — After my third year’s divinity- 58. Did you receNe dmlng yoim course any instruction Avhich was specifically apjilied to 2 p 2Ath October, 185a. 2 ^ Kov. M. O’Hulliv'im, lluiiboyne student. Tini(> absorbed by llunboyne studies. Ilebreiv'. As to teaching of junior classes liy Ifunboyne students. Ivccurrcnce to classics. Temporal and spiri- tual power. Spiritual power over heretics. Want of reception- room. Of common reading- room. Indelicate portions of Moral Theology. Treatment of and advice re-pecting. 290 MAYNOOTH CO^IMISSION. ZAth October, 1853. Rev. M. O’Sullivan, Dunboyne student. Composition of sermons. 30. Rev. Edward Fagan, Dunboyne student. Witness from diocese of IMeath. His previous educa- tion. School at ^lount- nugent. Diocesan seniin.ary at Navan. the composition of a sermon? — Yes; tvhen I studied English composition under the Rev. Mr. Kelly, part of his instructions were specially devoted to the subject of the composition of sermons. 59. Did you receive instruction upon that subject before or after that time? — None before or after. 60. That was in your second year? — In my first and second year in the College. 61. How much of his course did he devote to that subject? — Not very much. The instruction might have lasted for about a month. 62. How many lectures had you on that subject? — About twelve or thirteen in each year. There are only four or five lectures in English composition in each Aveek, so that the lectures were necessarily limited in consequence of the fcAvness of the classes. Gil. Hoav many lectures were given on that specific subject? — I think about twelve or thirteen. 64. Did they include any other subject but that? — No; they did not treat of any other subject but that whilst it was under discussion. 65. Did that instruction apply to the composition of sermons genei’ally, or generally to the structure of oral discourses? — To the structure of sermons generally. 66. That Avas the only period at Avhich you receiA'ed such instruction?— The only period. \_T//e WiOiess uithdrewP^ The Rev. 'Edward Fagan examined. 1. You are a DunboAme student, are you not? — Yes. 2. Of Avhat year? — Of the second year. 3. From Avhat diocese did you come? — From the diocese of IMeath. 4. What class did you enter at Maynooth ? — The Logic Class. 5. MMiere Avere you educated before you came to Maynooth? — I commenced my course of classics at the toAvn of Oldcastle, in the county of JMeath. 6. At Avhat school? — A school that AA^as conducted there by a ])erson of the name of Corbally. After remaining there for about three or four months, I Avent to a school that was then being conducted by a gentleman of the name of Brady, at the toAAm of JMountnu- gent, in the county of CaA'an. I continued there for the space of four years, and subse- quently I Avent to the diocesan seminary in the toAvn of Navan, in the county of Meath. I entered the first class of rhetoric there, and remained there for two years. After the lapse of two years I AA'as elected, by those Avho Avere intrusted AA’ith the management of the seminary, as a candidate for one of the places then vacant in IMaynooth for the diocese of Meath. I accordingly Avent to Maynooth that folloAving September, in the year 1846, and I presented myself as a candidate for the Logic Class, and succeeded. 7 In Avhat diocese Avas the school AAdiich you attended in the county of Ca\-an? — In the diocese of Kilmore. 8. You Avere there for four years — AAvas it a boarding school or a day school? — A day school. 9. How many pupils AA’ere there ? — I Avould say that the average number, Avhile I remained there, was about forty. 10. What was taught there? — The classics and geometry. 1 1. And English? — No English. 12. What did you read there? — I read nothing but classics, and a short course of geometry. 13. You stated that you were at a school in Oldcastle about four months? — Yes. 14. By AA’honi was it kept? — It AA^as a priA^ate school, conducted by a gentleman of the name of Corbally ; it Avas a day school. 15. Hoav many pupils Avere there? — About tAventy. 16. What Avas taught there? — Nothing but the classics. I Avas only at tAVO schools — at JMountnugent, and Oldcastle. 17. Hoav many masters Avere there at Oldcastle? — Only one. 18. Hoav many masters Avere there at IMountnAigcnt ? — One. 19. You did not learn English at either of those places, did you? — No. 20. Did you go at once fi’om Oldcastle to IMountnugent ? — I should say that I staid for about a month or Ha'C weeks befoi’e going to Mountnugent. 21. How old were you AA'hen you Avent to Oldcastle? — I think about eleven 22. Did you learn English any Avhere? — Yes, at my oaaui native place, about three or four miles to the north of Castlepollard, in the county of Westmeath. 23. From AAdiom did you learn it there? — At a school that AA’as conducted by a gentleman of the name of O'Reilly. 24. Was that a priA ate school ? — Yes. 25. Was it under the National Board? — No. 26. Hoav many masters Avere there? — Only one. 27. Hoaa’’ long Avere you there *? — I would say about fiA'e or six years. 28. Is the diocesan seminary at NaA'an still in existence? — Yes. 29. What professorships Avere there there? — Four. The course of education consisted of French, mathematics, classics, and English generally, including English composition. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 291 30. Did you le.nrn lojric there? — There was a little time devoted, durijig the course of the year, to reading logic. 31. How luauy teachers were there there? — During my time there, there were two or three teachers taken from amongst the students, ami tliei’e Avei*e also four priests teachers. 32. About seven in all? — Yes. 33. Will you state what they taught? — They taught classics. The president taught the first class of rhetoric; he taught, also, the first class of French, and the first class of geography and history. The vice-president taught the English course of studies — English grammar, arithmetic, and also geometry. The third ])riest, who was there then, taught the second class of rhetoric, the second class of geography and history, and the second class of French. The fourth professor amongst the ])riests taught the third class of rhetoric, the third class of history and geogi’aphy, and the second class of algebra, ddiese were the ditiei’ent depart- ments ])resided over by the ])riests. There were three prefects in my time there, and the duties Avhich one had to dischargo were principally connected with the accounts of the house, and he also tanght some of the junior classes English. The second prefect in it presided over the junior classes in the classical department. 34. Assisting the professor? — No, not ])recisely ; it Avas a distinct class of those who were commencing the classics. 35. Did you go through a course of English during the whole time that you were there? — I did not devote any time at all, during my two years there, to the study of English, but entirely to the study of rhetoric, including the classical course. 3(5. Was what you call the rhetoric course taught all at the same time? — Yes, including geometry and algebra. 37. You Avere not taught any rhetoric, properly so called, siicli as the structure of a dis- course, and composition? — No. 38. When you say rhetoric, you mean the highest class of humanity, do you not? — Yes. 39. IIoAV far had you adAanced in French when you Avent to the College of Maynooth? — I AA’as reading French during my tAvo years there, and the book Avliich 1 principally read was “ William Tell.” 40. Did you go through the Avhole of it? — Very nearly. 41. Was that the class-book used in the College in French? — It Avas a class-book in the class that I read in. 42. You had not read English composition since you road it in the school before you v/ent to Oldcastle? — I studied it in the College of Maynooth in the year allotted to it. 43. But before that you had not studied it? — No. 44. While you Avere at IMaynooth did you receive any instruction in the coinj)Osition of a sermon ? — I receiA'ed no instruction particularly on the composition of sermons. I received instructions, in a general AA'ay, from the professor in English composition there. In the course of his lecture he might, from time to time, refer particularly to sermons — nothing more. 45. With regard to the lectures u])on ecclesiastical history Avhich you attended, AA’hat period did those lectures embrace? — During the year allotted for the study of natural phi- loso})hy, and for the class deA'Oted to that study, there are two hours in the Aveek deA'oted to ecclesiastical history. 4(). What period of history AAvas embraced in the instruction Avhich you receh’ed in eccle- siastical history? — We read, generally, from the third or fourth century up to the sixteenth century, I should think. 47. Did you go through the whole of that period, from the third centmy down to the sixteenth centmw? — Yes. 48. Hoaa" much of the Bible, or the Testament, did you go OA’er in the lecture ujaou S cripture? — The gospels of St. MattheAv and St. John (those portions of them that are read in the house in the Scripture Class) ; the Epistles of St. Paul to the Hebrews, to the Romans, to the Corintliians, and to the Galatians. These, I think, are the Avhole. 49. Did you attend the HebreAV Class? — I studied HebreAV during last Aveek; I studied none during my ordinary course. 50. Do you knoAV Avhether the school at Oldcastle is still in existence? — It is not in existence. 51. Is there any other school in Oldcastle noAv? — No classical school. 52. Do you knoAV AA'hether the school in Mountnugent is still in existence? — It is, and the same master. 53. Is it still attended by as many students? — I liaA'e reason to think that the aA’erage number is still about forty. 54. Under Avhom did you study those parts of your treatise Avhich concern the relations betAA'een the temporal and spiritual poAver? — I read under both Dr. Murray and Dr. O’Hanlon, as a Dunboyne student. 55. Will you just gi\'e a general outline of the doctrine professed and taught? — It is quite certain that the Church does not recognise the l^ope as being possessed, by divine right, Avith anA' direct temporal poAver, or pOAver Avhich Avould enable him to interfere directly in matters of a temporal or civil nature. Hence, the Pope cannot, by force of arms, or any such means, deprive princes of their kingdoms. His poAver in this respect regards solely spiritual matters, or matters Avhich liaA’e for their immediate object the sah^ation of souls. With regard to the indirect temporal poAver of the Pope, I believe it to be the doctrine of every theologian at present in the Church, that he has no such power. But a 2Uh Odohei, ista. itev. Eilwaixl Eagim, Dunboyne stuilent. Teacliing at Navan seininiiry. No time devoted there to Englisli ly witness. French. Instructions in composition of a sermon at Maynooth Ecclc-siastical history. Scripture. Hebrew. Temporal and spiritual power. 292 MArNOOTH com:siissiox. ‘‘Ut/i October, 1853. 30. 1 if V . E d w iird F aga n , J)unboyiie student. Temporal ami s[iiritual power. Aiitliority as to oath ot allegiance. ])r. Dclaliogiie’s j)roposition regarding the temporal power. Su])]iosition of sen- tence of deposition at present. ] )uty in that case. .‘^nj)posed excom- munication. Its invalidity. difficulty arises here, inasmucli as the exercise of liis spiritual ])otver is sometimes attended ■with effects of a purely political and civil nature. For examjde, in the middle ages of the Church, the Popes did, from time to time, in virtue of their sjtiritual prerogative, jtronounce sentence of excommunication against Catholic princes. In tliose times there existed a com- mon latv, and which tvas universally enforced throughout the states of Europe, that when any Catholic ])riuce had been sidjjected to a sentence of excommunication, he, by the very fact, forfeited his right to allegiance oJi the part of his subjects. There is a tem])oral effect consecjuent ujion the exercise of the spiritual ])ower. Then a difficulty arises — Does tliat argue in the Pope the exercise of any tom}>oral power, direct or indirect? 1 sav that I think it does not, because the temporal effect in that case is entirely to be attributed to the common constitutional law that had been estaldished, and universally enforced throughout all the states of Europe; and the j)ower which the Po]>e e.xercised merely gave occasion to the enforcement of this law. With regard to the fact that the Poj>es did, fi’om time to time, during the middle ages, exercise tem])oral power l)y deposing })rinces, it is true that they did; but they did not exerci.se this ])ower as a divine right, but as a right invested in them by the common and unanimous consent of all the Catholic princes throughout Europe at the time. 5(). At the present time, according to what you are taught at IMaynooth, do you hold that the Pope has any power, direct or indirect, over the relation between the subject and the sovereign? — I liold, that the Pope has no direct or indirect j)ower with regard to the relations which exist between tlie sovereign and the sul)jcct. hi. Do you consider that he has any j)ower, direct or indirect, to dissolve the obligation arising from the oath of allegiance, or to declare that the ol)ligation has ceased? — The Pope has not the jiower of either directly or indirectly ja’onouncing sulijects to be free from their obligation of the oath of allegiance; but, as sulijects, in taking the oath of allegiance, con- tract serious obligations towards their sovereign — there are correlative oliligations on the ]iart of the sovereign. The sovereign is bound, in administering justice to his subjects, not to infringe on any of the precepts of the divine or natural law; and, according to the com- mon understanding once jirevalent among men, on the fulfiment of those obligations on the part of the sovex’eign must depend the obligation of an oath of allegiance on the ]iartofthe subjects. The function of the Pope, in this matter, then, is, that he has the la'ght to inter- pret the divine or natural law, and say when a sovereign has violated any of his obligations towards his subjects. As a consequence upon that, it would follow that the subjects would be exemjited from their obligation, although the Pope has no direct or indirect power of setting aside that obligation.'^ 58. From whom have you derived your instruction, jii’incipally, upon these matters; have you been going through this subject lately? — I have been stuflying it myself. 59. Have you been lately going through it in lectures? — No. <)(J. Did you, in vour lectures, come to that part of the Tractatus de Ecclesia, which deals with this subject. Dr. Delahogue’s treatise, De Ecclesia? — Yes. 1)1. In Dr. Delahogue’s treatise there is this proposition, “Christus Petro et Successoribus ejus aiit Ecclesim nullam pmtestatem directam vel indirectam in regum tenqxoralia ja’oindctiue isti nunc[uam auctoritato clavium etiam in directo de poni possunt ant eorum Subditi a fide et obedientia illis debita eximi ac dispensari.” Do you recollect that passage having been the subject of the teaching of any ])rofessor before you became a Dunboyne student? — I have no distinct recollection of it. (!2. Have you read that treatise since you have been a Dunboyne student? — Yes. ()o. Have you no recollection of that ]ris.sage? — I read this matter since I became a Dunboyne student, and the doctrine which I have stated regarding the power of the Pope is perfectly reconcilable with the proposition referred to. ()4. This is a question that ■was j)ut to one of the jresent ]>rofessors at the College of IMaynooth : — “ Su})])Ose the Pope were now to issue a sentence of dej)osition against the king, and to ])ublish an order directing the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland to inculcate upon the people that it was their dutv, in consequence of that deposition, to withdraw their allegiance from the king; which, do you think, woidd be the duty of the ju'iests, in that case — to obey the Pope, or to resist him?” If that professor answered in these words: — “ Should the Pope issue such a sentence, which I am confident he never will, I think it would be their duty to resist him;” is that the doctrine Avhich you have heard taught at IMaynooth? — Most certainly: the Pope is not eni])Owered to Issixe any such sentence. ()5 I’hen you agree that, in such a case, it would be the duty of a ])riest to disobey sucli an order? — Certainly, it would be his duty. fifi. This farther question was put, “ Siqxpose the Pope were to threaten the clergy with an excommunication if thev did not obev the command which has been stated ; woidd you conceive, in that case, that the excommunication was a lawful or unlawful excommunica- tion?” and the answer then given was, “I should consider the excommunication to be unjust, and by no means obligatorv, or of any force whatever.” Is that the view which * In raakin" the above answer (prob.ablv owing to the confusion of mind, not unnatural in the circumstances in whicli I was placed) I referred not to the present time, (although I now perceive that this particular question did contemplate the present time,) but to the middle ages, of which I had been speaking in my previous answer. I had in my mind, chiefly, the case of Pope Zacharia's interference in the succession to the throne of France, with regard to which our historians hold, that by the consent of the nobles of France, he was recognized as the judge whether or not the king, Cliilderic III., had duly fulfilled the compact between the subject and the sovereign. Put as these principles were purely the result of the consent of the nations themselves, and not of the spiritual jirerogative of the Pope, I, of course, never meant to apply them to the present times, when this con- sent has for centuries ceased to exist; and I coueeived that I had sufficiently excluded that suj)position by my previous answer. :minutes of evidence. now would l)c taken at Mavnootli, or would you take that view? — I do believe that to he the doctrine propounded to this day at Maynooth.* (!7. Is that the doctrine you have hceu tau,i>;ht as a Diinhoyne student? — I have not read that matter of exconnnnnication on the l)iini)oyne Estahli.-'hinent. ()f terminating your allegiance? — It would not have the slightest etiect in the way of terminating my obligation of allegiance. 71. Do vou think it would have any force whatever? — I am certain it would not. 72. 8u]>pose the Pope, in consecpience of some measure adopted by the Sovereign, which the Po])e thought hostile to Catholic interests — such as the jn-efereuce of a minister notoriously opposeil to the Roman Catholic I’eligion — were to declare that the Sovereign had forfeited the allegiance of her subjects, and ordered the ]»riests to declare that to the people, would the })i-iests be bound to obey the Pope? — Certainly they would not be bound. [The Witness u itiulreiv.'] Tuesday, 25th October, 1858. The Eev. Charles MCiulei/, examined. 1. When did you enter the College at Mayuooth? — In 1847. 2. What age are you? — Twenty-three. 3. Into what class did you enter at Maynooth ? — The Logic Class. 4. What position do you hold now? — I am a Dunboyne student. 5. Of what year? — Of the first year. b. When did you become a Dunboyne student? — In duly last. 7. Where were you etlucated before you entered Maynooth? — I was educateil (I lived with my parents) at a day school, for the first three or four years, iiiGlenarm, in the county of Antrim. 8. At what age did you go there? — I think I was about ten or eleven. 9. What was taught in that school?— The usual branches of English education, English grammar and composition, Grecian, Roman, and English history, geography, and also a brief outline of astronomy. 10. Were you taught s])elling? — Yes. 11. IIow many masters were there? — There was but one. 12. IIow many pupils were there? — I can scarcely say now. It was a mixed school. There were both males and females at the school. 13. Was it a national school? — No, it was conducted by a Presbyterian clergyman. 14. Up to what age do the pupils continue thei’e? — There were some pupils there who, I suppose, were fifteen, seventeen, and eighteen years of age. 15. About how many were there altogether both male and female? — Atone period there were, I think, about forty, including both males :ind females. 16 Were there more males than females? — Yes. 17. Where did you go to afterwards? — I went to Downpatrick, in the county of Down, and I attended a day school that was kept by a Protestant clergyman, the Rev. Mr. Graham I was a day boy there ; he had no boarders. I lived with my uncle who was parish jndest of Downpatrick. 18. IIow long were you thei’e? — A year and nine months. I studied Latin and Greek there. I had commenced classics in the other school in Glenarm, and I commenced Latin grammar at Downpatrick, and studied Latin, Greek, and English composition again, and geography. 19. Was that all you studied? — I believe that was all. 20. Where did you go then? — To the diocesan seminary in Belfast. 21. IIow long were you there? — One year. 22. What were you taught there? — I continued my studies in Greek and Latin, mathe- matics, algebra, and geometry. Then I was obliged also, as the other students who were preparing for Maynooth, to attend certain classes in the English department. 23. What wei’e they? — English grammar, and also English composition, geography, the use of the globes, and astronomy. 24. Did yon write any exercises in English composition while you were there? — Yes. 25. How often did you write them? — I think for a considerable period I m'ote an essay or an exercise once a week. 26. Was it corrected by the master? — Yes. 27. Was every exercise of each student corrected by the master? — I think so lie examined them all, and made the corrections which he thonght necessary. 28. Did he explain those corrections to each student? — lie did generally. We were * Such e.xcommunication would be unjust, and have no effect whatever. t This matter is made the subject of ilirect teaching at Mayuooth ; but was passed over by me owing to the circumstance of Dr. Murray’s illness, under whom I should have read it. Uit/i Ortohr, ISM. lUv. Edward Fagan, Dunboyne studeiil. Effect of excom- munication. Udt/i Ocloher, 185'!. Eev.Chas. M‘Auley, Dunboyne student. Previous education of witness. School at Glenarm. At Downpatrick. Diocesan semin.ary at Belfast. English composition. 294 xMAYNOOTii co:^missiox. 25t/t October, 1853. *3T Eev. Chas.M'Auley, Dunboyne student. Belfast diocesan seminary. Possibility of Dunboyne students assisting in teacliing. Keeping up of classical knowledge. Amount of leisure enjoyed by Dunboyne students. called up tooretlier in the class, and the exercises of each were examined, and corrections pointed out before the entire class. 29. How many were there in a class? — There were fifteen or twenty in a class. 30. What teachers, and of what branches of instruction, were there in tliat seminary? — • Greek and Latin classics. 31. What was the jilan of the seminary? — We had a dean to attend to the domestic management of the establishment, then there were two priests who attended to the classical and mathematical departments, and an English master who had the charge of the English dejiartment. 32. Was he an ecclesiastic? — No, he was a la5mian. Then there was a French teacher. 33. An ecclesiastic? — No. That was the entire body. 34. Idiere were four teachers in one seminary? — Yes. 3.5. How many pupils altogether in the establishment? — The largest number at any time during the year I was there was about forty-five. 3(3. Were they all boarders? — Yes; 1 speak of boardei’s. 37. Were there any day scholars? — Yes; I supjiose as many as 100 or upwards attended both the classical and English departments. Some of them were in the English department alone, and others studied both English and Latin. 38. Did the majority study English alone? — I think the majority of the dayboys did. 39. Were the boarders preparing to become ecclesiastics? — Not all; 1 suppose there may have been twenty — more than that, between twenty and thirty, who wore preparing for ecclesiastical Colleges. 40. And, how many for other purposes? — I suppose about ten or fifteen. 41. At what age did you enter that seminary? — Between sixteen and seventeen. 42. What was the average age at which pupils entered? — Some might not be more than ten or twelve years of age, from that to twenty, perhaps more than twenty. 43. Under whose suiierintendence was that seminary? — It was under the ])atronage of Dr. Denvir. 44. What diocese is it in? — Down and Connor. 45. U]) to what age did you stay there ? — 1 Avas between seventeen and eighteen when 1 left it. 1 was there only one year. I entered Maynooth before I Avas eighteen. 4(3. Do you knoAV Avhether the seminary, at Belfast, is still in the same condition and conducted upon the same plan as Avhen you Avere there ? — I think noAv they haA C but one clergyman. There were tAvo professors there besides the dean, Avho Avas a clergyman. 47. If it Avere desired to assign to the Dunboyne students any share in the tuition of the junior classes in regard to classics, should you consider it to be consistent Avith the special dxities in Avhich the Dunboyne students are noAV engaged? — It might interfere, perhaps, AA’ith their oaa’ii studies, either the studies that are necessary for their attendance on the Dunboyne Class, or other studies to AA'hich they might apply themselves for their oavu im})roA-ement in their first year or second year perhaps, but I dare say in the third year they might do so. 48. If they Avere tAvo or three hours a Aveek so em})loyed should you conceive that that would interfere materially Avith your oavu improAxmient ? — I suppose that Avhile they Avould be engaged jireparing classics that Avould tend considerably to their oavu improA^ement ; but at the same time it must interfere, at least it avoaUcI occupy a considerable portion of their time. 49. If the k)iOAvledge aa IucIi had been acquired in the junior department Avere kejAt Aip through the senior de])artment, the abstraction of the attention Avould be A'ery little moi’e than that of the hour actually enq)loyed in tuition, Avould it? — Very little more, I think. 50. It is A'ery much the ])ractice, is it not, that the classical studies are rather dropjied after the s])ecial period in Avhich they are pursued has ex])ired ? — I think it is, because the other stAidies are so Aveighty and occupy so much of their time, particidarly their theological studies, and also their stiidies in Scrij)turc and ecclesiastical history. These are A'ery Aveighty, and occupy a great portion of their time, and 1 think not many students ha\"e much time to devote to the classics, or some of those branches Avhich they may have studied in the earlier portion of their course. 51. If a fair scholarship had been attained ])reviously to entei’ing the course of theology, a very small amount of attention gh'en from time to time Avould retain, and eA'en improA^e, the knoAvledge acquired up to that period, Avould it not? — I suppose it Avould. 52. Did you also ])ursue your independent studies Avhile pursuing those specially of your classes in the theological department? — I may say that the only portion of my classical knoAA'ledge Avas that of Latin comjjosition. I used to deA'ote a little time to Latin compo- sition, occasionally, during the course of the theological studies. 53. IlaA e you much leisure to devote, now that you are a DunboA'ne stAident, to subjects of general reading, not of the class, but as connected Avitli your future career? — This is my first year on the Dunboyne Establishment ; for the last three weeks of it my time has been very much occu])ied. 1 Avas obliged to lecture to one of the classes in the absence of one of the professors ; and, altogether, our time has been so much occAipied, that I can scarcely form an opinion hoAV much time I should have remaining, after giving that Avhich is neces- sary for the studies of the Diuiboyne Class. 54. Are you beginning iioaa' again to go through the same treatises which you had gone through in your previous theological course? — I think the only treatise Avhich Ave Avill read now Avill be that on Avhich Ave are engaged at present, that is “ l)e Deo et Dicinis Attrihutis" 55. Is that Dr. Delahogue’s? — We have no treatise upon that point — no class-book, at MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 295 present, on that particular treatise. Tlic mode of comluctinff tlie studies in the Dunhoyne Class is this — the professor announces a proposition, and we read and study that jtroposition. 50. From various books? — Yes. 57. There is no one class-book? — At present, on this particular subject, we have no one class-book. 5H. Have you any class-books in the Dunhoyne Establishment, c.Kcept on the canon law? — I think that the other class-books, used by the other theological classes, would he used over again, merely as a guide. We go over the same subject more fully. 59. You have, of‘ course, studied Dr. Delahogue’s Treatises? — Yes, in my first j'ear’s studies in theology. We have had Dr. Dclahogue’s Treatises, and several of them are used in the course of our studies. ()0 Do you remember his Treatise “ De Ecclesia?” — Yes. (51. And the doctrine which he lays down as to the temporal and spiidtual power? — Yes, I do. 62. Will you give your general idea of the doctrine coiiveyed in that treatise, and as it is taught at Mavnooth? — It is four years ago since I studied that treatise. The particular ju'oposition in which that doctrine is contained in Dr. Delahogue’s Treatise was not formally gone through in the class, as the other propositions in the treatise were. It was omitted; and I considered at the time that it was omitted in such a way, as to im])ly that the doctrine -which is asserted in Dr. Delahogue’s ])roposition, was the doctrine that we should follow. We did not go into that subject in detail, as we did others; and the ju’ofessor made some observations himself — I do not at present remember what they were — but I remember that they seemed to confirm me in the impression that the Pope had no power, direct or indirect, as to the temporal rights of sovereigns. 63. Do those questions come under consideration much in the course of your studies, either of the authority of the Pope or the Church in temporal matters? — No; the doctrine of the power of the Pope, of the temporal and spiritual power, as compared with each other, I can scarcely say is treated of formally in any part of our course. I suppose it would be in that Treatise of the Church that it would be treated. 64. Then, are the duties of priests, with regard to temporal matters, brought under dis- cussion in any particular part of your theological course? — The only occasion which I recollect at present, in which there was any formal allusion to the subject, was in the course of the past year. Dr. Murray, the professor under whom I studied last year, was delivering some lectiu’es to us, about the close of the year, as to the regulation of our future conduct on the mission ; and I remember, in the course of these lectures, he alluded to the subject of the interference of priests in politics In the first place, he told us that as the right of voting altogether was a j)urely temporal matter, no priest had a right to insist, as to any members of his flock, upon how they should give their votes ; or to dictate to them, or insist upon them giving uji their opinions. And then, I recollect, he alluded very strongly to the conduct of some priests about pronouncing that the voters would, in certain instances, be guilty of sin, unless they voted in such and such a way; and he said that that doctrine could not be admitted ; and he explained to us the principles on which he maintained that voters wmuld, in certain instances, be perfectly justified in giving their votes to persons -whose politics did not agree with their own. He condemned, in very strong terms, the conduct of some priests, and the mode in which they dictated to those who were entrusted to their charge ; and he also spoke of the caution which all priests should use on those subjects, and that they had no right at all to dictate, or use their authority as clergymen, on those subjects. 65. He distinguished between their rights as priests and their rights as citizens? — Yes; lie admitted that, as citizens, they had a right to their opinions. 66. tiave you ever studied, specially, in your class, the question of the mode of dealing with heretics, as prescribed under the teaching of the Church of Rome ? — I have not studied that specially, in class, under any jirofessor; but the result of my reading, and of my theo- logical studies is, that the Church cannot punish heretics with temporal penalties — the Church can only use spiritual arms — the powers which, we believe, are vested in the Church of jninishing by censime — of merely inflicting ecclesiastical censure. We disclaim the prin- ciple, that faith is not to be kept with heretics. Those censiu’es do not release persons from civil obligations. 67. Do you remember the occasion on which you took the oath of allegiance? — Yes; particularly I remember the occasion on Avhich I took the oath. 68. A good number of the students took the oath, did they not? — Yes, a large number; I could not say how many; all those, I believe, who entered College at the same time Avith me. 69. Do you remember repeating the oath after a person Avho read it for yon? — I do. 70. Did you observe that any of the gentlemen, in taking the oath, either made no answer, or omitted any part of the oath, as it Avas read to you l)y the clerk ? — I remember none. I knoAV that I took the oath, as I Avas directed at the time to take it, repeating the words that Avere read, and doing all that I was directed by, I belie\’e, the Clerk of the Peace ; taking the oath according to all the forms prescribed. 71. How’ many students were present A\Ren you took the oath"? — I suppose, at least, there must haA’e been fifty or sixty. 72. All repeating the oath together? — Yes, as well as I remember. 73. Did each student hold a separate Amlume in his OAvn hand? — I think that three or four men put their hands on the book. Each had not a separate volume, but sometimes three or four, or as many as could conA^eniently put their hands on the book. October, 1853. Rev. Chas. M'Auley, Dunboyne student. Dr. Dcl.ahogiie’s proposition as to the temporal poAver. Duties of priests in temporal matters. Dr. Murray’s exhortation. Treatment of heretics. Taking of oath of allegiance. 29G ]\IAYXOOTH CO:\LMISSIOX. October, 185:5. R<‘v. Clias. Jl'Aiiley, Duaboyne stiulcnt. Iiuleliciile portions of moral theology. Cautions as to study of. 32. Jtev. 1’. O'Donnell, Dunboyne stiulent. Witness from Tipperary. llis previous educa- tion. Tliurle.s College. IiKtruction in Knglisb in Tliurles. 74. Dkl YOU take your own voluiue with you to the office? — We were directed to do so. I do not remember, at jtresent, whether T had my own volume with me or not; hut I rememher there was a sufficient muiiber of volumes to enable all the persons present to put their hands on a volume. 75. Do you rememher whether it struck you, at the time the oath was taken, that there was any variance from the oath on the part of those wliom you heard repeating it ? — No, it never struck me. 71). Did von sign the roll at the time, after the oath was taken? — I signed some roll afterwards in the College. 77. Before' von went to the College did you sign anything in the Court, or in any adjoin- ing chamber? — I do not recollect; hut I got a certiticate, which 1 have yet, signed by the Clerk of the Peace, certif} ing that I have taken the oath, and subscribed. I think where I subscribed was in the College. 7(S. Yon suliscidbeil a hook in the College? — Yes, I rememher that I subscribed. 79. Do von rememher whether any instructions were given to yo5i hv the President, or dean, or any other authority, with respect to the nature of the oath, before yon went to take it? — 1 recollect that some of the superiors, I cannot say whether it Avas the President or the Junior Dean, the Rev. klr. Gunn, made some allusions to the oath. He merely explained something about the obligations of the oath ; and told ns that Ave Avei’e to take the oath as it Avas laid doAvn — the terms of the oath — Avithout any ecpiiA-ocation ; and that Ave could luiA'e no difficidtA" in doing so, as it had been approved of by all the bishops of Ireland. ISO. Do yon recollect the manner in which that part of the Treatises of the College Avhich related to the precept ‘■‘■Non ??i(cc/iaben'.s'’ AA'as treated? — During the past year, the last year of our theological studies, the only instructions that Ave receiA'cd u])on the subject diu’ing the course AA'e receiA’ed from Dr. Murray. I had noA’cr studied the sid)ject, because the professors ahvays recommended us not to study those subjects till Ave AA'ere on the point of commencing our missionary duties ; and in the instructions aaIucIi Ave received from him at that time, he (Bvelt very earnestly on the extreme caution Avhich Ave should use after- Avards on the mission, particularly in putting interrogations; and also he ])ointed out A^ery strongly the propriety of abstaining altogether from any conversations on these subjects among ourseh'es, either Avith the members of the same class, or Avith any of the junior students. \_TIte ]Vit/iess icithdreir.~\ The Rev. Patrick O'Donnell, examined. 1. What is Amur age? — I am twcnty-fiA’e years of age. 2. From Avhat part of the country do you come? — From the county of Tipperary. 3. What Avas your preA ious education before you came to Maynooth ? — In the early pare (T my education, I aa^s educated in my oavu native i)arish of Golden, and the adjoining toAvn of Cashel. 4. At priA'ate schools? — Yes. 5. Up to AAdiat age? — Up to the age of sixteen. G. Did A'ou then enter into the College of Maynooth ? — No ; at sixteen I entered Tliurles College. 7. That is a seminary, is it not? — Yes. 8. Is Tliurles College exclusively confined to the education of students for the ecclesias- tical state? — It is not. 9. Can Amu saA^ at Avhat age persons are admitted into Tliurles College? — I do not knoAV, jireciselA’, Avhether there is a fixed age, but I luiAm knoAvn some about the age of tAAmlve admitted. 10. Do they remain there till they take orders? — Some do. 11. What number of pupils are usually there? — In my time there Avere sixty-four. 12. Sixty-four boarders? — Yes, besides many other day students. 13. Did YOU go through your humanity classics in that college? — I read some classics before I entered, and I read for one year in the first class of humanity in Tliurles College. After that 1 read logic, and metaphysics, and ethics, for a year, and another year, natural and experimental jihilosophy in that college. 14. Into Avliat class did you enter at IMaynooth? — I entered into the first year’s divinity at jMaynooth. 15. 'Had you any instruction in English in Tliurles before you came to Maynooth? — Yes; I read history there and geography. IG. Were there exercises in composition? — No, thei’e AA’cre not; in Latin and French there Avere. 17. You did not read English there? — No, I did not ; I read no English composition there. 18. Is that college still going on ? — Yes. 19. AYith regard to the priA-ate schools AA’liich you attended, are they still going on? — One of them is, and the other is discontinued. 20. 4Yas that altogether a priA'ate school? — Yes, altogether. The Golden school is gone, but the Cashel school is still in existence. 21. As a prh'ate school still? — Yes. 22. Were you ever at a national school? — I was at the national school in ThomastoAvm for a vei’A' short time, AA’hen I Avas a child. 23. You are a Dunboyne student? — I am. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 297 24. In wlint cln.ss are you? — I am ciiteriiiii on the second year. 25. Umh'r wliom did von study in the theological course? — I studied under Mr. Furlong, and Mr. Crolly, and Dr. INIurray. 2(). Yon studied theology only lor three years? — Yes, I had four years, hut we had Dr. Mnrrav lor two years, in conseiinence of a vacancy that occurred in the senior class. 27. Did von read Dr. Delahogne’s treatise, “ De Ecclesia, ’ in your course? — Yes, T did. 28. Did yon enter, in the course of reading it, n])on the questions relating to the tem- poral authority of the Church? — No; I do not recollect that we dwelt u])on that in class at all; mcrelv the doctrine of the Church was stated, and the o])inion that the Pope had any direct or indirect tenq)oral j)ower was scouted hy the j)rofessor; he did not enter into the details of it at all. 29. Did he state that this opinion had over heen held? — I do not recollect that ho stated that, hut he su])])osed, I imagine, that we knew it was held. do. Your teaching generally throughout would lead you to that conclusion? — Yes. S^L'he Witness u'ilhdrew7\ The Rev. Tliomas Cahill, examined. I. What is your age? — Twenty -five. 2 AVliat part of the country do yon come from? — From Queen’s County and diocese of Leighlin, subject to the bishop of Kildare and Leighlin. 3. W hat previous education did yon receive before yon entered Maynooth? — I studied for a short time in a seminary at Blackrock, near Dublin. 4. From what age to what age were you there? — 1 think from about six to eight yeai's of age. I then remained five or six years at home with private tutors, and one year in Carlow College. 5. Then you loft Carlow College very young? — Yes; I was seventeen years when I entered Maynooth. G. Into what class did yon enter at Maynooth? — Into the lowest class, that of humanity. I read for eight years in the house : this is my ninth — my first year, on the Dunboyne Establishment. 7. Were there any English classes at Carlow? — There were. 8. And exercises in English composition? — Yes; in the composition of English there was one special class in which we had to write pieces once a week, I think ; and, of coni’se, the usual studies, Latin, and Greek, and French, and Italian, were taught in the College. 9. Is Carlow j)urely for the education of ecclesiastical students? — No; there are two departments, one ecclesiastical, and the other lay. The lay college is connected with the University of London. 10. Were you in the ecclesiastical department? — No; In the lay department at Carlow. II. Are the young men who are intended for orders subsequently, usually in the lay department at Carlow until they go to Maynooth? — Very few ecclesiastics enter into the lav house, but a small numljer do. 12. Is the pension different for the one and for the other? — It is smaller in the ecclesias- tical house, and higher in the lay house. 13. Are they taught by the same teachers in the lower schools? — Some of the classes were united when I was there; so that the lay students and the ecclesiastical students used to read under the same ju’ofessor in humanity and rhetoric, and in a few cases in logic. The lay students read no theology or Scriptui-e ; and the ecclesiastical students, I believe, did not study Italian, but the lay students did. They have taught German in the College for the last few years, and an extensive course of mathematics. 14. Did anv of the lay students of Carlow College obtain distinctions at the London University? — They did. 15. Are you aware how many? — I couhl not say: not many. IG. Does Carlow College inclmle a Professor of Scripture, or is Scrijiture taught by one of the [irofessors? — It was taught by the Vice-President, while I was there, to the ecclesi- astical students, and, I think, to all the classes of theology — 1 am not quite certain, but I think so. There was only one class of theology in Carlow, Imt the course was changed each year, so that a ])erson who ]>assed three years in the same class, would be taught different subjects; thev had one jirofessor of theology. 17. Do you know whether the same books are used in theology at Carlow as at Mav- nooth? — Yes, the same books were used when I was there. I am aware of that: of course I often heard it spoken of — Init I am not quite certain what class-hook they use there. I think Bailly, which was used until lately, is not in use now, but I do not know what writer is substituted 18. What is the ]U’esent plan of Carlow College ? — It embraces the different languages. 19. Ill the ecclesiastical de])artment who are the teachers, and in what branches? — There r is a Professor of Theology ; the Vice-President professed Scripture. I am not quite sure whether there is a Professor of Scripture in it now. 20. It is tauglit liy somebody? — There is a class of logic, metaphysics, and ethics under one professor. I am not aware of any other professor. 21. Is there no Professor of Physics and Mathematics? — Yes, there is a Professor of Physics also. 22. Do these constitute the whole, theology. Scripture, natural philosophy, mathematics, logic, and metaphysics? — I think these are the whole in the ecclesiastical house. 2 q Octoher, I2. Itev. P. O’Doimcll, Dunboyne student. Temporal power. 33. Rev. Tliornas Caliill, Dunboyne student. ITis previous educa- tion. Carlow College. Studies of lay and ecclesiastical students in. Distinctions obtained by students of, at London University. Theological Class, books in. Studies of ecclesiastical house. 298 IMAYXOOTII COMMISSION. U,bth October, 1853 . Kev. Thomas Caliill, Duuboyne student. Of lay house. Pupils in. Intended for foreign missions. Course of theology in. Written exercises. Instruction in May- nooth as to compo- sition of a sermon. Criticisms on students’ sermons. 23. I.S any EnolisU tauo-lit in tlie ecclesiastical house? — Yes; the rhetoricians are exercised in the coini)osition of English, also, by the professor. 24. Is there a Professor of Rhetoric? — Yes, there is. 25. In the other seminary what classes are there? — First, there is a special class for the University of London. Those gentlemen pre})aring for it read in one class by themselves. Of course the two senior classes of the lay house correspond with the two junior classes of the other, so that the students in the dilferent houses are united in those classes, in rhetoric and humanity — at least they were when I was there : then they had different classes for French, Italian, and German. 2(). Any thing else? — Ylathematics, history — different histories; and they are exercised, of course, in the composition of all those languages. 27. In the composition of English, and geography? — Yes. 28. And the use of the globes? — YTes, and trigonometry. 29. Mathematics? — General mathematics. 30. Are those taught in the junior house? — Y"es. 31. IIow many masters are there in the junior house? — I am really not aware how many. 32. flow many jmpds are there in the junior house now, do you suppose? — About sixty or seventy — all boarders. 33. Plow many were in the ecclesiastical seminary when you were there ? — About seventy, I think. 34. Plow many are there now'? — About forty. 35. Plow' many of those seventy w’ere intended for foreign missions? — Twenty places are provided for them. 3(). Are there more than the tw'enty taught for the foreign missions? — I think not. 37. Are all the rest for the home missions? — YTes, the Irish missions. 38. Do any of the students complete their education there ? — Some are ordained there nearly every year. 39. Who have never been at Maynooth nor to any other college ? — I think not. There are some ordaineel there nearly every year. , 40. Some who commence and complete their education there ? — Yes ; of coui’se the places in the College of Ylaynooth are given to the most deserving of those out of the Carlow College. 41. What is the course of theology Avhich they read there? — Three years is their regular course. 42. In other respects the coiu’se is pretty nearly wdiat it is at IMaynooth, is it not? — Yes. 43. Logic, metaphysics, natural ])hiloso]diy, mathematics, humanity, and English ? — Yes. 44. PYere you exercised in English in Carlow'? — Yes. 45. IIoAV many exercises did you w'l'ite in a year there? — W’^e w'l'ote one every w'eek, at least. Then there w'ere public exercises where the most deserving compositions were read, and persons w'rote for these if they w'ished. 46. IIow' many students were there in that class? — Ahoiit sixty or seventy lay students. I w'as in the lay college in Carlow, not in the ecclesiastical. In the lay college there w'as this practice — every month the compositions used to be sent in to the Vice-President, and I think they w'ere read in public afterwards : I refer to the students w'ho practised in English composition. 47. Besides the weekly exercises? — Y"es. 48. Have you received any instruction at Playnooth with reference to the composition of a sermon? — Y^es, I have; I might say that these wdiole two years tended to that in a great degree. The })i’incipal thing about w'liich w'e w'ere engaged w'as the com])osition of sub- jects ; hut special lectures w'ere given on the composition of sermons. 49. PYhat period of time, at Playnooth, w'as particularly allotted to that? — Tw'o years. 50. How much of that period is so occujded ? — In the Belles Lettres Class lectures are given for each of the four days. 51. My question had peculiar reference to the composition of sermons. PVhat special instruction was given to you on that subject? — The composition of sermons engaged the attention of the professor for some part of the year — I do not remember how long. 52. Did you receive — except from the Rhetoric Professor — any instruction in the com- position of a sermon ? — I may say that the students receive instructions every Sunday in composition, in his way — that one of their fellow'-students preaches, and some siiperior or professor is present, Avho calls upon some of those present to make remarks upon the sermon, and he does so afterwards ; and in that way we continually receive instructions in the com- position of sermons; except that, I have received no instruction since I left the Belles Lettres Class. 53. Do many of the instructions that you receive on Sundays rest upon your mind? — They do. 54. In w'hat respect, and to w'hat extent, w'ere those instructions given? — Of course the manner of the sermon w'ould be criticized, the delivery, and also the arrangement, the order in wdiich the subject was treated, the language, and the matter. 55. Flow long would the delivery of a sermon take? — From tw'enty minutes to half an hour. 56. Flow long does the criticism last? — It last trom five to ten minutes. 57. It is only within that space of time that these observations are made? — Yes. 58. Except the instruction derived from these Sunday sennon#, and the time w'hich you describe as being occupied in part of the com’se of rhetoric, you receive no special instruc- tion during the com'se upon the composition of sermons ? — No, I think not ; 1 do not recollect any other. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 20 ') ill Septeiubcr hist? — Yes, I -was . aoi/j October, Ison. I )e Eeclesia ?” — 33. Kcv. Tlionias Caliill, Dunboyne student. Teinjioral i)ower of the Tope. tliiiitrs. O Students who liave gone on foreign missions. Number of. 50. You cutereil on tlie Dunboyne Establislnnent ajipointod bust -June, alter the meeting of the bisliops. 1)0. Under what professor did you read tlie treatise of Dr. Delahogue, Under Mr. Furlong, in my tirst year’s theology. til. Do YOU recollect the doctrine there laid down in regard to the temjioral janver of the Dope? — I cannot jirecisely remember the Aery doctrine propounded by the profe.ssor, or the precise remarks he made — these things are not very fresh in my memory; but I can judge, from the impression that was left on my mind, and that exists still— 1 am perfectly sure that the iloctrine was, that the Dope has uo power, direct or indirect, in tempora’ 02. T'hat is tlie doctrine that you have always imbibed? — Yes. 03. You do not know of the existence of any other doctrine which is taught at May- nooth? — No; but the impression that was left on my mind was this, that the Dope has not, jure dit'ino, any jiower whatever, director indirect, in temporal affairs; and that if there are any facts in history that would ajijiear to show that the Pope ever assumed any such power, those facts can be ex[)lained in such a way as to show that it was never the Catholic doctrine xXvaXi Jure diriuu, the Pope did possess, director indirect, jiower in temporal things. ()4. Do you knoAV whether any of your fellow-students have gone into the foreign missions ? — Yes, I know some of my fellow-students who have, after finishing at Maynooth, gone on the foreign missions. Of course, before they could do so they should get permission from their bishop. They would not be ordained by another bishop for his diocese without per- mission from the bishoj) whose subjects they were in Ireland. 35. Did that arise, in any case, from the bishoj) liaving no occasion for the services of tlie young men at that jiarticular time? — Yes. It hapj)eiis, sometimes, that rather than wait till there are vacancies, they go iijion the foi’eign missions. There are some class- fellows of my oAvn Avho have gone to the mission in Scotland, who hai e gone to perform missionary duties there until there is a jilace for them at home. Last year there was no vacancy, but the bishoj) can call upon them when he chooses, and bring them liome. GG. About Avhat number hav^e you knoAvn to go uj)on foreign missions since yqu went to the house? — I cannot say: three or four, j)erliaj)s, every year — sometimes more and sometimes less. There are class-felloAVS of mine in Australia, in Trinidad, and in North America ; some in Scotland, and some in England. Manj'of them have left their dioceses jierma- nently. That arises from their own wishes, and they have not avowed themselves as students for the foreign missions in jMayiiooth. Of course they coidd not remain there if they did. G7. They must obtain the permission of the bishoj)? — Yes; there is, I believe, a j)rovision in the canon law upon that subject, that a student cannot j)ass from one diocese to another, as a j)i’iest, Avithout the j)ermission of the bishoji to Avlioin he belonged before. G8. Have you gone through those jiarts of the treatise Avith regard to the sins against the precept “ Non Mmchaberis?” — That subject aaTiS ucA'er read in my class j)roperly, but some lectures Avere giA’eu by the professor toAvards the end of the theological course. I neA'cr studied the matter. The advice generally giA^en is, for jiersons not to study it till they ai’e going on the mission ; and as I had a jArosjiect of remaining on the Dunboyne, I listened to the lectiu’e, but did not mind it, of course. There is a precejAt in the Church, and the Catholic doctrine is, that CA^ery mortal sin must be confessed ; therefore it is neces- sary for the j)i-iest to understand Avhat those sins are. There is a divine j)recept, according to the Catholic doctrine of confession, as to confessing all sins. G9. When did you receive deacon’s orders? — Last Pentecost. 70. When Avere you made sub-deacon? — Tavo years before. 71. In the course of your religious training, does it form a jAart of your instructions not to think ujAon these subjects? — Yes; that is imjAi’essed most strongly on the minds of the students — the students of the senior classes and the professor advises the students not to speak of these things among themselves, and, aboA’e all, not to sj)eak of them to the junior students ; and the students liaA'e the gi’eatest delicacy in sjAeaking upon such subjects. When any class is reading the matrimony tract, during the examinations upon the other tracts, no other students aaLo liaA^e not read that tract before are ev’er jAresent. There is a general feeling that there is an improjAriety in the matter, though they do not understand except the class Avho are reading the business. The matter is never entered into in examina- tion, nor are the students interrogated; and from the very name of the thing, the students are excluded, and from the general feeling in the College, from examinations ujAon such subjects, that there is any jAi’ohibition on the subject ; but still they never enter that examination 72. Besides the adedee not to sjAeak upon such subjects, iloes it form a jAart of yoru’ instruc- tion and training not to let your redections rest upon such subjects? — Yes, of course; pru- dence aaGU suggest that. \T/ie Witness withdreu'7^ Tuesday, 3rd January, 1854. The Rev. Daniel Leahif examined. 1. What is your present jiosition in life ? — I am clerical superintendent to a society in Eev. Daniel Lealiy. London, called the “ English Church Missions to Roman Catholics.” 2. What had been your previous education ? — I Avas educated at IMaynooth College. Witness educated at 3. At what time did you enter the College at Majmooth ? — I entered Maj-nooth in the Maynooth. year 1832. 4. At Avhat age ? — I cannot be accurate — I think I was eighteen or nineteen. I left it Entered in i832. in 1837. I Avas an officiating priest for fifteen A’ears and a half, and I resigned my cure and my mission into the hands of my bishop from a conviction that I Avas practising error. 2q2 Indelicate portions of moral theology. Instruction as study of. Great reserve respecting these subjects. Srd Januanj, 1854. 34. 300 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. Snl January, 1854. 34. Kcv. Daniel Leahy. In Rhetoric Class. Completed college course. His previous education. tlfficcrs of college in witness’s time. lYhether instructed in duties of a subject. Impression on the subject of allegiance kept up in the minds of the students. No instruction on that subject. No teaching adverse to duty of allegiance. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition. Held by Dr. O'llaulon. 5. Into wliat class did j'ou enter at Maynootli ? — Rhetoric. 0. Had you completed the course when you left the College? — Yes; I joined the Rhetoric Class when I entered, and it was pretty far advanced in that year. Then I entered the Logic Class the next year, and physics the third year. At the time I was there there were only three years of theologj'. 7. "What education had you received before you entered the College ? — A good classical one ; and I was for a short time in a preparatory school in Ihmerick — I think for a year and a half — under the superintendence of the Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese, my bishop then. My diocese was lumerick. 8. The course of theology which you spoke of just now was, at that time, the complete course of the College ? — Yes. 9. AVlio were the professors, at that time, of theology? — The Rev. IMr. M'Ginnis, Dr. OTIanlon, and the Rev. Mr. Carey ; he is now a Roman Catholic archbishoj), I think, at Calcutta. 10. "Who was the head of the College at the time ? — During my time there had been three Presidents. The late Dr. Crotty, of Cloyne, was one ; the present Roman Catholic archbishop of Cashel, Dr. Slattery, was another ; and Dr. Montague was the I’resident there when I left. 11. AVlio were the deans at that time? — During the first years Rev. Mr. Dooley and Rev. Mr. Dixon — Rev. i\Ir. Dixon is the present Roman Catholic Primate. The Rev. ]\[r. Dooley left the house in my time — he joined some society in Dublin. There were only two deans when I was there ; before I left. Rev. Mr. Dooley had left the house, and Dean Dixon had been promoted to the Scripture chair. Dr. Gaffney and the Right Rev. Dr. Deny, now bishop of Clonfert, were then the deans of the house. 12. During that period Avere you instructed in your duties as a subject to the State ? — No; I do not recollect any instruction at all in regard to the duties of a subject to the State. T think that was a particular point that was completely steered clear of. 13. Was the (question of the allegiance which is due to the Royal Majesty treated of in the course of the instruction you received ? — No ; I do not recollect any instruction on that point. 14. In the class-books is there any part which particularly bears upon that point ? — No ; not that I am aware of at present. 15. Did you go through the Avhole of Dr. Delahogue’s work ? — .V portion of that work was read in the several Theology Classes through the house. I Avent through the regular course of the house. Dr. Delahogue and Railly Avere the class-books; but I do not bring to my recollection any thing with regard to any instruction abotit the duties of allegiance in them. On the contrary, the impression is constantly keiit up in the minds of the students that the reigning king at any time was a heretic, and out of the pale of salvation, and that they could not conscientiously have Avhat they call allegiance to him, so as to keep him on the throne to the exclusion of a Roman Catholic, inasmuch as it Avould be injurious to the eternal welfare of his soul. That Avas, as far as I could form an opinion, the general impression. IG. In AAdiat Avay AA’as that impression conA’ej^ed ?— I do not recollect any instruction with regard to allegiance being delivered at any time. I only give my oAvn impression, and my opinion is, too, that that Avas the general impression of the body of the students in the house. 1 7. Do you mean that you are noAv conveying the impression which you have of the opinion generally entertained by the students? — Yes, I think so. 18. Is it your intention to convey any imi)ression as to the instruction that was received ? — No ; I do not call to mind anj* instruction Avilh regard to the duties of allegiance that I heard or received at iMaynooth. I think the students are generally under the influence of their own prejudices, and the teaching of the Roman Catholic doctrine, Avhich is, of course, clearly, that all persons outside the pale of the Church of Rome are in a state of reprobation and exclusion. 19. Did you eA'er hear any teaching AA’hich incidcated that, b}- reason of being a heretic, the Sovereign Avas not entitled to allegiance? — No; I do not recollect. Maynooth, in my time, AA^as supported by an annual grant of T'8,000 or .£9,000 a year; and I think it Avould be going rather too far if thej' inculcated any tiling of that kind. I think they steered clear of any direct instruction Avith regard to that ; because they could not give an}' instruction that would clash with the teaching of the Church of Rome. 20. In lAoint of fact there AA'as none? — No, I do not remember. I cannot call to mind any instruction Avith regard to allegiance. 21. In Dr. Delahogue’s treatise, “De Ecclesia,” there is this passage — “ Christus Retro et successoribus ejus autEcclesiie nullam concessit potestatem directam A'el indirectam in Regum temporalia.” Do you recollect that passage being made the subject of lecture or comment, during your Avhole course of study? — I cannot at present distinctly call to mind Avhether I heard that subject discussed in class or not ; but I have some indisthict recollec- tion of it. Delahogue Avas not the professor in my time, his book was only the class-book — the professor in my time, “De Ecclesia,” Avas Dr. O’Hanlon. I rather think — I cannot say positiA'ely — that it may have been the individual opinion of Dr. O’Hanlon, very cautiously given, of Avhat is stated here. 22. Do you mean to say that you are of opinion that possibly that passage Avas bi'ought forward, and that the doctrine contained in it Avas inculcated ? — Yes ; I think that the professor held that opinion himself; but that the general opinion was that the Pope had direct power over kings and monarchs, inasmuch as that their souls, and the souls of their subjects. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ZOl were so miicli more valuable than any worldly possessions, and that every thing should come to the utility of the Churcdi linalh' — to forward that end, to wit, the salvation of their souls. Sh. You refer still, do you not, rather to the impressions that were prevalent among the students than to what was the actual course of teaching hy the professor from the chair ? — Yes, I do. 21. According to your recollection, the doctrine contained in that extract ^ras taught hy Dr. OTIanlon? — I said that I had some indistinct recollection of that question being discussed in class, and that 1113' belief would lead me to think that Dr. OTlanlon’s 2>rivate opinion, in giving it to the class, was that the I’ope had no direct temporal authority over kings or monarchs. 25. And that he taught that in the class ? — That that was his own private opinion, hut I cannot, with any certainty, assert its being taught in the class. 1 have some glimmering of it. My recollection is not clear at present regarding anj' particular discussion on a ques- tion of that kind. 20. Your impression is that it was taught hy him, conveying it as his own opinion, and inculcating it in the class ? — Yes, I think so. 27. Have you any recollection of an opposite o])inion to that being at all taught hj' him, or h}' an_v of the Theological Professors? — No; hut that it was laid down in some of the works. I think I recollect that it was laid down, in some portion of some volume, either of Baill\', or Delahogue, that tlie Sovereign Pontilf had, indirectly, a supreme power over all kings and monarchs, inasmuch, as to any thing that would impede the salvation of their souls, that he had the power of annulling or dispensing with it; and the prominent idea on the minds of the students was, the universal supremac}" of the Pope ; and the distinc- tion (now that my mind is becoming more clear on it) that was made, was this, as regards his temporal power ; that he had not, directly, temporal power in other kingdoms ; but it followed, indirectly, h_y reason of his absolute power over their souls. I think that was the doctrine that was taught by several of the professors in Maynooth. 28. Do you recollect a particular part in Bailly’s Treatise on Moral Theology, in which the duties of subjects towards their prince are enforced ? — I do recollect that there were such things treated of in the book; hut, afterwards, when a priest comes to perform his functions on the mission, it is more the moral and practical portion of that class hook that he attends to. 2‘J. You do not recollect, whether in treating of these chapters, the duties of a subject, in regard to his allegiance, were fullj" entered upon ? — I do not remember whether we went through them at all. Of course I take it for granted we did do so. i30. Your general impression is, that the duties of allegiance were not stronglj" enforced upon the students ? — Yes, decidedly, that is mj^ opinion. 31. That is the impression j'ou wish to convey? — Yes; not only w'as it my own impres- sion, hut I take upon mj'self to say, that it was the general impression among the body of the students that I was acquainted with. I beg to say, also, that there is an oath of allegiance put to the students, a certain time after entering the house, and I was among a number that went out (I cannot sa^" the precise number, one hundred or more) to take it ; and when the oath was read in court, I distinctly gainsaid it ; I could not, in conscience, then, take that oath, inasmuch as from the prejudices I had, and, at the same time, the teach- ing of the house, I would be doing a positive injury to the eternal welfare of the reigning monarch, if I were to take that oath, he being a Protestant, and sui>porting the succession to the throne as such; and instead of repeating that oath, my conscience told me to gainsa}' it all along. 32. So that in fact you never took the oath of allegiance ? — I believed that I did not at that time. Afterwards I was put under the impression that I did; because a Dunboyne student told me that the opinion of some theologians was, that by the fact of going out into the court-house I was bound. 33. But you did not repeat the words of the oath? — No; we were all up in a gallery, some hundred or more of us; and there was one Testament supposed to be passed along. I could not undertake to say what were the reservations of the others. 34. Was not the oath repeated aloud to you by the clerk? — Yes, by some gentleman at the table below. 35. And a certain number took the volume into tlieir hands, did the}^ not ? — It was passed along their hands rapidly ; perhaps there might not have been more than one half of them that touched it with their hands at all ; they looked upon it more as a matter of form. 36. Did thej' kiss the book? — I think not, except some few of them : not the larger number of them ; ceitainij" not. I do not know whether the.v were required to kiss the book at all even: I think not. I know I did not touch it, and was not required. I only speak of my own individual reservation of mind. *^1 hope I was determined to be as loyal as any person in the house; still, from my prejudices and teaching. 1 thought I could not con- scientiously take the oath of allegiance to a Protestant king, as a heretic. 37. Are you sure the oath of allegiance was taken after you had been sometime in the house? — -Yes. 38. Did jmu receive any instruction on the subject of the obligations of oaths, before that oath was administered? — No; I do not recollect; I think not. 39. Then how had the teaching at iSIaynooth affected your mind with regard to the iiro- priety of taking this oath of allegiance ? — From the general prejudices and general tone of the College against Protestants. 40. The general tone prevalent in the College among the students? — Yes; that the}". Srcl January, 1854. 34 . Ecv. Daniel Leahy. No recollection of ojipositc doctrine being taught. Bailly’s teaching on duties of subjects. Oath of allegiance. Gainsaid by witness ill taking, and why. Afterwards informed that he was bound by oath, notwitli- standuig. Mode of taking oath. Effect on witness’s mind of general tone of College. 302 :\IIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. ^rd January, 1854. Ivev. Daniel Leahy. Time of taking oath. Religious teaching in interval. No instruction as to obligation of oath, or duties of subjects in that time. Impressions created by association with students. Butler’s Catechism. Doctrine as to oaths or contracts with heretics. General impression on mind of witness as to obligation of oaths to heretics. Witness left Maynooth with impression that such an oath was binding. Protestants, were outside the pale of salvation. Of coiu-se I believed what the Chiu'ch tauglit in that way, as also did all tlie students of the house. 41 . How long had you been in the College before you took the oath of allegiance ? It might have been the following October of the second year. 42 . At what time did you enter ? — I should think about March or February, in 1832 . I stood for rhetoric, and passed. There was a number of persons from my diocese, who came at that iieriod to Maynooth. The professor at the preparatory school in Limerick, died suddenl}', and they were all quartered away to IviUvenny, Carlow, and Waterford, and some ten or a dozen were sent uj> to Maynooth. 43 . In the interval, between your entrance and the taking of the oath, did jmu receive any theological or religious teaching at all in the Ilhetoric Class ? — There was a Class of Catechism, that the Vice-President, Dr. IMontague, attended once a week, an hotir every Wednesday; and there was a portion of the Old Testament read in it, and Doctor Butler’s Catechism. 44 . Were the obligations of an oath, or the duties of a subject, at all dealt with ? — I think not ; I am certain of it. 45 . Was it from prejudices that you had imbibed before jmu entered the College, or from any teaching that you heard at IMaynooth, that you were induced not to pronounce the oath, or to entertain an opinion adverse to it ? — I think it must have been from the im- pressions made upon 1113' mind in the College ; because in the class of life that I belonged to, it was not hereditary for me to have a i^eculiar prejudice of that land ; m3' family were always upon the best terms with the local gentry, speaking and dining with them, and being accjuainted with them, in the exercise of hunting, kc. ; and I could not charge m3’- conscience with having any peculiar prejudices m3’self. 40 . What kind of teaching did 3'ou receive during that interval, between IMarch and October, that created these impressions iipon3'our mind? — I do not recollect I received any teaching in the house, during that interval, from an3' particular chair or professor, on the duties of a subject. 47 . No instruction was given to 3'ou that loosened the impressions of allegiance with which 3'ou entered? — No, I think not. I do not remember an3’ thing that came under the immediate province of aii3' lecturer in 3113' chair, on that question, during that interval. 48 . Was it b3' association with the students that these impressions were created? — Yes ; that heretics and schismatics were outside the pale of salvation. Dr. Montague was very precise as to this Catechism Class, and this was very exclusive as to salvation, more so than Baill3' or Delahogue, if possible. 49 . Except the prejudices arising from those views of salvation, did 0113’ thing else cause those impressions against allegiance ? — I do not recollect an3' thing. 50 . What is the catechism that 3'ou allude to ? — A little popidar catechism for general instruction for children — Butler’s Catechism, I think. 51 . Do you recollect whether any thing was taught in the catechism, to the effect that because the king was a heretic, allegiance was not due to liim ? — No ; I do not. 52 . Did 3'ou receive any instruction in the course of 3'our studies, as to the mode of dealing with heretics in the concerns of life, in matters of contract, and soforth ? — No ; I do not recollect. 53 . Was aii3’ particular course of conduct enforced upon 3'ou, in regard to dealing with heretics in the concerns of life ? — I do not recollect an3'. 54 . Was any doctrine taught you in regard to oaths pledged to, or contracts made with heretics, b3' Koman Catholics, as to their validit3’ or otherwise ? — No ; I cannot call to mind any such teaching. The general impression on my mind was, with regard to oaths, that the Church or the Pope had the power of dispensing with oaths, and wherever the utility of the Church required such a stretch of power, that the Pope had the power of dis- pensing — I think that -was taught either in Delahogue or Bailly. 'The text is general — thev' say, “whatsoever you bind,” &c. The3’- undertake to prove from that text that the Pope has the power of dispensing with oaths and vows. 55 . Of any kind, without limitation ? — I think without limitation ; the words are general, and they deduce the power from the generalit3’- of the words : I should think there is no limitation. 50 . Was it ever stated that where the rights of third parties were already involved, that that power was limited or controlled ? — I thiidi it was, but I do not recollect clearl3' now the teaching or the reading of the books. 57. Did 3'ou leave Maynooth with the impression on your mind, derived from the teach- ing there, that an oath pledged to a heretic -«'as equall3’- binding upon 3'our conscience, as an oath pledged to a Homan Catholic, or otherwise ? — If I was going to give the Com- missioners m3' own individual opinion just now, I think if I took an oath at all, it would be equally binding to all parties; but that was not, I believe, the general impression of the students in the house. The imj^ression on my mind, derived from the teaching in May- nooth was, that the Church could dispense with oaths whenever the utility of the Chm'cli required it. 58 . Putting aside the question of the power of dispensation, and looking simpl3' at the obligation of an oath upon 3'our conscience, did 3'ou believe that the obligation of an oath taken to a heretic was different from that pledged to a Eoman Catholic, or would you have thought 3'ourself equally' bound by' the oath when you left the College? — My' own impres- sion was, that if I took an oath, I was bomid to observe it, no matter to whom. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 303 r>9. You left IMnynooth with that view of an oath, did you ? — I would rather say that was my own peculiar impression ; I do not say that that was the effect of the teaching on my mind, in the house. GO. Whatever the teaching was, that was the impression with which you left May* nooth? — My own individual private impression. Gl. Do you recollect whether it was taught at IMaynooth, that where the rights of third parties are involved in an oath, there is not any power to dispense with it ? — I think that must have been taught there; that is mj’ impression. ()2. That was taught, was it ? — That is my present impression, that that was the doc* trine inculcated there. GO. Should you be able to speak to the doctrine taught, by a reference to the doctrines contained in the class books in every house, or did the professor (piote the class book always as conclusive authority ? — No ; T think that he took some latitude to himself with regard to his own private opinions, because the Church of Eome is so divided with regard to opinions, that every theologian, and every professor, is at liberty to give his own private opinion upon disputed questions. Generally speaking, I should think that the several pro- fessors followed the class book. There maj" be some particular point upon which they held their own opinions, but they would not press them upon the students. G4. But you cannot, by a simple reference to the language of the class book, quite con- clusively infer the doctrine that was inculcated upon each particular point ? — Generally speaking, I should think that the doctrine of the class book is the doctrine received. G5. As a general rule? — Yes. GG. Was there any private individual religious instruction given to the pupils during your residence at Maynooth, with regard to their conduct in life, and as to the formation of moral habits ? — Eveiy student was obliged to select a confessor at the commencement of the year, and to go to him every Saturday, or every second Saturday; and his moral guid- ance was entirely in the hands of that confessor, and his private conduct, I may say, also. G7. You are aware that there is apart of the teaching which relates to the precept, called the sixth in the Boman Catholic Decalogue, and the seventh in the Protestant. Will you inform the Commissioners in what way tliat was introduced ; at what period of the course, and in what form and manner? — I think it is in the Second Year’s Theology, as well as I recollect, after Christmas, and in the second half year of that year’s course ; and the way in which it was introduced was this, each class-day there would be three or four pages of this book pointed out for the next class. G*^. What was the text book made use of for that inirpose? — T do not know whether Bailly or Delahogue ; I think it was Bailly. G9. Was this lecture or teaching conducted entirely in the Latin language? — Yes; all in the Latin language. 70. It was given out as the subject for examination at the followung class ? — Yes ; I can- not precisely bring to my recollection hoAv it was gone over. The subject-matter to be treated was so obscene, so indelicate, that whether it was dwelt on much in the same way with all the other different lessons pointed out for the different classes, I could not just now say, but I am sure we must have gone over it in the routine biisiness of the book. 71. Do you recollect sufficiently to be able to say whether the students upon that par- ticular subject, in consequence of the cause you have just mentioned, were recommended to postpone it to a late period of their course? — No ; I never heard that. 72. Did the professor take care to recommend you to read it in a religious spirit, or to take any care that your mind shoiild not be contaminated by the perusal of such passages; did he accompany the instruction with any cautions to that effect ? — It is likely that he might, but I do not recollect ; I remember having heard in the house, of some persons looking upon it in such a dangerous point of view, that they should read it on their knees in the chapel ; I could not say who they were, but to show the danger of it. 73. Do 3 "ou recollect whether it was considered, either in the teacliings of the professor, or amongst the students, as a subject to be avoided, save so far as it was absolutely neces- sar}^ to learn it ? — IMy impression would be just now, that he would have said so, but I can- not call to mind that he absolutely did. 74. Had you a Bible when you entered College? — No; I was sent very young to a classical school, and I remained there till I went to the preparatory academy. 75. Were }'ou put in possession of a Bible when you went to Maynooth? — I do not recollect precisely just now. 7G. Did you read the Bible at the preparatory academy ? — No ; and I have no hesitation in saying, that the education regarding the Scripture is completely defective in Maynooth. 77. Had jmu a Bible when you left Maynooth? — I had a Latin Testament, but not a whole bible. 78. Was any Bible given to you when you entered the College? — No. 79. Are you sure of that ? — I am quite sure. 80. Do you recollect whether you got one from the Bursar ? — I never entered on wdiat they call the Establishment ; I was a pensioner there. I believe that tliose entering upon the Establishment are supplied with a free grant of books ; I was not among that class ; I was a pensioner all along to the last year. 81. Do jmu recollect whether the Bursar gave you a Testament or a Bible, and charged for it? — I do not recollect; I am sure he did not. 82. Had you any lectures directly upon the Sacred Scriptures whilst you were at May- nooth? — Yes ; there was a lecture for an hour on Wednesday, in Latin, I think, and an hour on Satiu'day, in Latin, also. That was looked upon in my time, to be a kind of ird January, 1S54. Ker. Daniel Leahy Taught that where rights of tliirJ parties are involved, oatlis cannot be dispensed with. Latitude of opinion upon disputed questions. lieligious instruc- tion. Teaching as to sixth precept in It. C. Decalogue ; Text book on ; Mode of teaching ; Instructions as to study of. The Bible. Lectures on Sacred Scriptures ; 304 MAYXOOTn COMMISSION. ^rd January, 195i. 3i. Rer. Daniel Leahy, Their nature ; Amount read. Considers instruction in that department defective. Mode of conducting Scripture Class. Greek Testament. Other deficiencies in teaching. Physics class. leisure class, on 'Weilnestlay, preparatoiy to taking a tvalk into the country ; they looked upon it as a kind of class not at all so severe in preparing for as the usual Theology Classes. 83. AVhat was the nature of the instruction that was so given in the Scriptures? — An exposition ; some persons of the number, in the class — two or three — would be called on for the hour, perhaps two, to read over some portions of the New Testament. 84. How much of the New Testament did you read through, in that class, while at Mat'- nooth ? — I cannot say. l\Iy impression is, that the great body of the students did not study or read for that class at all. In the three several otlier classes, there are perhaps seventy or eighty, or ninety, and tlie}-- must study to prepare for their answering, but in the Scrip- ture Class they were all thrown into one general class. 85. AVas it conducted by a dean or by a professor ? — By a professor. 80. You stated, did you not, that the Ahce-President also lectured you on AVednes- days ? — That w^as in the first entrance year in Humanity, to gi'ound them in the primary doctrinal points of the Church of Rome, what children learn in chapels. 87. During how many years did you continue to attend the Scripture lecture on AA’’ednes- days and Saturdays ? — During the three years of theology. 88. Did you attend them during the Natural Philosophy year at all? — No ; you must be a divine before you are admitted into that class; it is “piiri passu ’’ with theology. 89. During that period, what portion of Scripture was gone through ? — I could not dis- tinctly state at present. 90. Did those lectures embrace the New as well as the Old Testament? — I think there may have been a few chapters in the Book of Genesis ; a few of the New Testament then. I am not at present prepared to state, what was the precise routine course, or whether there is any marked course at all. 91. At the time j'ou w’ere there, j’ou mean? — Yes. 92. AVas there a Professor of Scrijiture at that time ? — Yes. 93. Did he lecture exclusively on Scripture ? — Yes. 94. AVho w'as the Professor of Scripture in your time ? — The present President was for the first year, and Dr. Dixon was for the last two years. I am not sure, indeed, whether one year or two, but he was professor wdien I left. 95. You have stated that you consider the instruction in the Holy Scriptures at Maynooth is defective ? — Yes. 96. In what respect do you consider it deficient? — I, mj^self, derived very little benefit from it. As I stated before, the general impression appeared to be, that thej’’ did not attach any particular importance to it in comparison with the Theology Classes. 97. Does not the Theology Class comprise Scripture also ? — Yes, so far as texts are quoted to prove any particular doctrine. 98. The lecture in Scripture, probably, was studied much more memoriter, than for the purpose of understanding, and explaining, and apidying it? — No. 99. You say they did not attacii much impoi’tance to it. AVhat was the mode in wdiich the lecture was conducted ? — There was a particular chapter, or such a portion of a chapter marked out for each class, and the professor w^as in the habit of calling some one or two students of the class to read it out, and to give an interpretation of some commentator upon it, for instance, Menochius was the standard, the house commentator, and to give some paraphrase of the meaning of the Apostle, or of the Evangelist, and, as well as my recollection bears me out now, the general answering would show that they did not study it at all, and that they did not attach the importance to it that they did to the Theology Classes. 100. Did you read the New Testament in the Greek language at Maynooth? — No. 101. Did you receive any instruction in the Greek language when at Maynooth? — A little the first year ; afterwards it was completely left off. 102. AVas it generally dropped? — Yes. 103. Do 3 'ou think you could have construed the Greek Testament, either the old or the new, in the original Greek when jmu left the College? — I could not; decidedly not; because I did not read it at all up to that time. 104. You coidd not have understood the Epistles of St. Paul in the Greek language when jmu left the College? — No, I could not; and I do not think there w'ere five out of every hundred who could. They had no studv, no practice that waju Generally speaking, in all the classical academies, or preparatory schools, it is not so much the Greek Testament as Lucian, Homer, Longinus, and Zenophon, &c., that they read. It struck me that there was not much importance attached in Maynooth to the teaching of the Greek language at all. 105. Used you to refer to Alaldonatus, as well as Alenochius, as a commentator? — Yes; jMaldonatus was read in the house, but I think hlenochius is the standard commentator. lOG. Did it strike you, as a student there, that there was any great defect in the teaching ; did you come aw'ay feeling that there was an}”^ great defect in }mur instruction ? — Decidedlv a defect in the teaching ; and I would undertake to state, that it is a general want with regard to a large body of the students in the house. 107. You spoke of having comparative!}" no knowledge of the Greek language, in what other respects were there deficiencies in the teaching, according to A'our experience ? — I w"as a good Greek student wdien I entered College. The third or fourth year in the order of the course is called the Physics Year ; and in my experience, my own ojiinion w"as that that was a useless yeau' ; there was too great an accumulation of study in it, and, iir fact, no person could keep pace with the rapid course of that }’ear. It was generally looked upon, by the gi’eat bod}" of the students, as a j^ear of no real value at all, with the exception, perhaps, of ten out of every eighty or ninetv. 108. You went through the whole course of phj-sics in one j’ear? — Yes; I recollect it MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 305 being given as the opinion of students of very considerable abilities, that that course ought to take three years. 109. Wlio was the pi'ofessor at that time? — Dr. Callan. 110. Had yon any authors on the subject of physics? — Yes; tliere was a treatise on algel)ra, geometry, and electricity — printed treatises. 111. Had you any manuscript treatises? — I do not recollect. 11 '.2. You do not recollect buying or hiring the use of a manuscript treatise on any subject, which was handed down from one student to another? — 1 never heard of or saw any such thing. 118. Is there any other matter as to which yon think there was a great defect? — The Scriptural education 1 look uj)on as completely defective. 1 do not think the generality of the students leave the house with any well-grounded information with regard to Scripture at all. It is all one-sided, and tlie worst education as regards Theology; and tlie natural consecpicnce that would folh)w is, that all the minds of the students from tliis become prejudiced and imbued with this hatred of Protestantism, and ai)ostacy, and schism ; and tliat they are all disloyal, and cpiite bereft of Christian charity with regard to their separated brethren in religion. 114. Did yon receive any instruction in writing sermons while yon were in the College ? — Tlie sermons are confined to the last year ; and I, myself, took my course my regular day — only once during my ednrse — I remember it was prayer ; and I certainly do Say, without any hesitation, that in jireparing for it I got more Scriptural education than I did in College for the whole three years. 115. Yon are of opinion that the ■writing of those sermons was a very good 2'>ortion of the training there ? — Yes. IIG. Was the sermon in English? — Yes; and it made a greater imiiression on me than all the Scrijiture reading I got in the house. I only com^iosed one sermon. 117. Were you called upon, when you went on the mission, at once to jireach sermons to vour congregation? — No. 1 18. It was not part of your clerical duty to preach a sermon? — No. 119. While you w'ere on the mission was it your ^ii’actice to 2>i'each ? — No, it was not ; I generally 25re2)ared for some instruction every Sunday ; and I alwa3^s had my instructions written, what they call an exhortatii)n of about fifteen or twenty minutes, more or less. In the latter end of the time I invariably used to read the Gospel, and I endeavoured to call the particular attention of the peo[)le to it. I found I could make no im2)ression on them ; I thought the Word of God was the only ordeal to improve them and convert them, and I directed their attention to it. 1?0. Are yon a\vare that the Council of Trent requires every clergyman to instruct his l^arishioners eveiy Sunda}’? — I am not aw'are of that mj^self. 181. Is there any observation which you think it important to make respecting the instruction imparted to you by the professors at Maynooth ? — I am not aAvare of any thing 2 )articular at jAresent. 138. Are there any further observations which you wish to offer in regard to the studies at Maynooth ? — No ; except that in this particular year of theology, with regard to the sixth 2irece2>t of the Decalogue and the Matrimony Treatise, it Avas 1113^ o2)inion then, and is noAAq that the3' had a direct immoral tendenc3^ on the minds of the students. 188. Should 3’ou say that 2>ractically such is the result, or is it the impression on 3'our mind that such a subject is, in itself, injurious? — Yes; the minds of the students being necessaril3' engaged on these questions, I think, taking into consideration the natural depravity of man in a fallen state, that it has a direct tendenc3' to produce bad effects on the minds and morals of the students. 184. Did A’ou observe that it had that injurious effect in the house, I'tracticallv, as affecting the language or the conduct of the young ju’iesthood ? — I could not undertake to say that ; I think I Avould be jAerfectly Avarranted in stating, as to jiersons Avho came to that 3'ear, and Avent through that course, in that second 3"ear’s theology, that their minds Avere corrupted from wdiat they Avere before, necessaril3’- in getting over these things that tho3" were not before acquainted A\uth. 185. Do 3’ou mean that 3^11 practically observed that result? — Yes; and the3' AA^ere looked upon, when the3'' came to that 3^ear, as a kind of privileged class in the house ; that the3' got into, Avhat they called, the secrets of their future })rofession. 186. Did 3"ou observe aiy^ thing in their conduct or conversation indicating an injiudous change of character ? — Yes ; that is my im^Aression. They Avould sa3% some of them condemning it, that indelicate and disgustmg matters were introduced in the Matrimony Treatise ; and I am quite preiiared to say, that aiy^ persons of delicate feelings Avould be shocked Avith some of the questions in that treatise. 137. Do 3’’on mean that the3" created re2‘)ugnance in their minds? — Yes, on the feelings of some 2Aersons ; and Avhen I say that of one class, I think it had a contrary effect on others, Avho were not naturall3^ so delicate in feeling, and that it made them licentious. 138. Have you, in your memory, any particular instances, hr Avhich you recollect arry hrdividuals so corrupted, or injuriousl 3 ' affected irr their conductor coriA'ersation ? — I state that irr conversation I 2 Aerceived it. 189. AVas it much the subject of conversation ? — I thirrk it was more that year than arry other 3"ear in the house. 130. Do 3'ou rerrrenrber whether it was discirssed as a matter rr2)on Avhich the studerrts ought to be cautious, arrd that they ought to deal Avith it irr a religious arrd careful S2ririt ? — I do not recollect that at all ; on the contrary, that vear \A*as a 3’ear of great licence arrd 2 r ■)rd January, IS-Al. 34 . Kev. Oaniel Lcaliy. Scriptural education. Instruction in wriiiny sermons. Did not preach wlieu on mission. Directions of Council of Trent as to preaching. Te.aching on si-xth precept, and matri- mony treatise ; In i urious tendency of; Eeason for this opinion. E.xtcnt of injurious tendency as discerned by witness. Ivopugnance 01 stu- dents to these matters. Contrary effect on others. 306 MAYNOOTH COxMMISSION. Snl January, 1854. Eev. Daniel Leahy. Signs of levity exhibited on one or two occasions. Power of the Pope. Education defective from teaching exclu- sive tenets of the 11. C. Church. Preparation in English. Personal discipline. Evil effbcts resulting from teaching at Maynooth. Whether such result observed in fact. Witness's impres- sion. Knew about two per- sons m the college with very carnal minds. Witness’s 'conviction as to Maynooth. liberty in class ; it was a year that the stitclents looked upon as a year of gi’eat liberty. They were constantly shouting and laughing in the hall, the last half-year of the second year’s theology ; and it would be morally impossible to get over that year without hearing some extraordinary things said by the professor to the students. 131. Was there ever any sign of levity shown during the lecture, when the professor touched upon these subjects, and asked questions ? — Y^es; I recollect on one or two occa- sions there were signs of levity exhibited. 182. Were those signs observed by the professor? — Yes; I think he almost joined in them ; he put down his head. He was not in the habit of checking any demonstration of that kind ; and he was remarkable, on the contrary, for creating it, and for merriment generally. Whatever may have been the peculiar opinion of the professor, with regard to the direct or indirect power of the Pope, I certainly am quite prepared to say, that the general impression on the minds of the students was, that the Pope was supreme, and universal in all authority, from this man’s teaching and manner. 133. But you do not recollect any teaching on that subject? — No, I do not; I cannot call to mind any particular teaching. 134. Do you now recollect whether it was Dr. Delahogue’s Treatise that was the class- book on that subject? — I cannot say ; I rather think it must have been, but I cannot call to mind. I cannot say distinctly that it was. 135. Who was the professor of that year? — Dr. D’Hanlon was the professor of that year. 13C. Is there any thing else material, with reference to the institution, which you desire to state ? — This was prominent in my mind : that the education, particularly in that year, had a direct tendency to corrupt the minds of the students ; and that the bigotry, as I would term it, that was necessarily imbibed from the teaching of the house, certainly had a tendency to produce disloyalty in the minds of the students. 137. When you spoke of one-sided teaching, did you mean the teaching of the exclusive tenets of the Koman Catholic Church ? — YTs ; it follows from that as a consequence that tlie education was defective. 138. According to your recollection, did the young men come to the College generally pretty well prepared in Enghsh ? — Indeed no ; on the contrary, deficient, I think, in good English when they came, and it was worse afterwards, because then it was altogether the Latin language ; and if a student was not pretty well versed, before he entered College, in the Latin language, his course was very dull and stupid ; he could not keep pace with tliem. The Latin of Bailly and Delahogue w’as quite a different style of Latin from what they read in the schools, Horace, Livy, and so on. That, coupled with the great discipline, and the extraordinary silence hours of the College, I think was calculated very much to produce stupidity and didness generally in the minds of the students. 139. What was the s}'stem with regard to personal discipline, and w’atching over the con- duct of the young men? — There was a regular system encouraged in the house of w'atching over them, and fearing and dreading each other generally. There w’as a complete absence of any thing like mutual confidence j)revailing in the body of the students in the hoiise, from the system of espionage that was encouraged by the deans and superiors ; and it had a very injurious effect on the morals and minds of the students. 140. Did you observe, at any time, in the conduct of those who left Maynooth, any evT effects, as resulting from what you have described ? — Indeed I could be prepared to state that some of their conduct afterwards on the mission, followed as a necessary conse- sequence from the training they got in the College. I say that from my experience. 141. Are you speaking with regard to personal morals ? — I am speaking of moral integ- rity ; and with regard to personal morals, I am certainly of opinion that the training at Maynooth had a direct tendency to corrupt their morals. 142. The question was, whether you had observed, practically, and in fact, any immoral conduct in the priests, as resulting from wliat you consider to be the tendency of the teaching ? — Yes ; I am decidedly of that oj)inion, that immoral conduct is the necessary consequence. 143. Have you ever yourself known an instance of immoral conduct, as gi’owing out of that tendency ? — The doctrine at Maynooth comes again in point. I do not know w’hether I would be justified in honour in stating what I have known. 144. Do you consider now that any considerable proportion of the students at Maynooth were immoral men ? — That waas m.}' impression from m}^ experience, and that the state of celibacy that they w^ere obliged to live in, and the teaching in theory in the College, and afterwards reducing this daily into practice, had a direct tendency to produce immorahty in their lives. It Avas generally the case ; I have no hesitation in stating that. 14'). Are you able to say whether or not there wei’e immoral men in Maynooth, among the students that you knew there ? — Of course I have more cognizance of the characters of the priests than of the students ; where there were so many as 500 in the house, it would be hard to form an opinion. I can only say that I knew about two persons, as I thought, with very carnal minds. I made very few acquaintances in the house ; I Avent through it very quietly, and I hope as prayerfully as an}’’ one. One I was acquamted with, the other only accidental!}'. I should not give this as a rule to form an opinion of the body of the students in the house ; but I certainly am prepared to state it as my decided conviction, that Maynooth is a great hot-bed of mistaken piety, and as a consequence a hot-bed of disloyalty, for from the constant discipline, and the manifold times of praying, and going to confession &c., and the students tjms working out their own self-righteousness, must, if sincere at aU, be prayerful persons ; but, the system being false, on the contrary, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ,307 tlien, the more they practise it the more bigotry it produces in their minds, and a feeling of insubordination and disloyalty to their Protestant separated brethren. 14(). On the subject of morality, did you find, as the result of what occurred at Maynooth, that it led to immoral conduct, or the reverse ? — Decidedly to immoral conduct, subse- quently on the mission. 147. Have you, in j'our mind, any number of instances in which you were acquainted with the fact of immoral conduct having been the result ? — Decidedly, and to a most dis- gusting degree ; in fact, 1 had great struggles with my own conscience and mind, before I changed my religious opinions — before the spirit of God enlightened me. 148. "With regard to the two persons of whom you spoke, have you heard of any immo- ral acts of theirs? — Yes ; and I looked upon them as carnal-minded persons, every way. I think they were expelled ; they both left the house at all events ; whether expelled 1 can- not say ; withdrawn, may be. The government of the house was managed in that way, that we could not know whether they W'ere withdrawn or expelled. They were either expelled, or obliged to leave the College. [ The Witness withdrew.'] Wednesday, 4th January, 1854. The Dev. Denis Lei/ne Brashie, examined. 1. You were educated at Maynooth, were you not? — Yes. 2. Previously to going to Maynooth, what education had you received? — I was educated in a classical school, in the town of Killarney. 8. Up to w'hat age ? — I think I was about the age of eighteen wdien I entered the College of Maynooth. 4. In what class did j'ou enter, and in what year? — I entered the Rhetoric Class, in the year either 1827 or 1828 ; I was in the house when the emancipation bill passed, in 1829, and I had been there a year or two years then. 5. When did you leave the College ? — My connexion ceased with the College in the year 1834. 6. Had you gone through all the classes then ? — From my advanced classical education previously to entrance, though I entered during the winter, in the month of February, in the middle of the academical year, yet I was allowed the wdiole academical year. My time, consequent^, in the house was only five years and a half ; I got into the Rhetoric Class because I knew classics pretty well ; I entered, I think, in the month of February, 1827 or 1828, and the remainder of that year I read the six last books of Quintilian and Longinus ; the books read in the commencement of that j^ear wei'e the first six books of Quintilian, and the Philippics of Demosthenes. 7. Will you state the course that you went through ? — The usual course. 8. How many years did you studj^ theology ? — Three years ; after my rhetoric year, I read logic, metaphysics, physics, and theology — three years of theology. 9. Under what professor did jmu study theology ? — I had a different professor each year. 10. Who W’ere the professors ? — The first professor was a Mr. Magennis, the second professor was Dr. O’Hanlon, and the third was Dr. Carey or Carew, commonly called the Archbishop of Madras. 11. What was the nature of the teaching which you received, in regard to the duty you owed to the Sovereign ?— We did not think of the reigning monarch one w’ay or the other ; there w’as nothing directly taught on the subject, that I can remember ; the only circum- stance that came under my notice, was with regard to the oath of allegiance, which every student is supposed to take, though I believe some evaded taking it, because they did not wish to take it ; the feeling with regard to that oath, at that time, was that they would as soon swear allegiance to Mehemet Ali, the then Pasha of Egjqit, as they would to George the Fourth, wdio sat on the throne of England ; that was the general feeling; going out to the town of Majuiooth, to take the oath of allegiance, they w’ere all laughing, and the oath was not taken proi)erly and formally, as it is in a court of justice ; there W’ere a few Bibles or Testaments, and five or six students laid their hands on them at a time, while some kept their hands oft' ; and from what I could perceive, I believe there was what is generally and commonly called mental reservation in the w’hole transaction. 12. What do you mean when }’ 0 u say, from wdiat you could perceive ? — I could not actually perceive w’hat passed in the mind, biit I could form an idea from the circumstances w’hich took place. 13. Had 5 mu any mental reservation ? — I did not think one way or the other at the time ; I was rather a young man ; I w’ent out laughing, and I did not think one way or the other about it. 14. You were not laughing when you took the oath, I presume ? — I do not remember at this moment having taken it at all ; I went there to take it, at least that was the object of sending us. 15. Were you sent to a court of justice? — I believe it was a court; there w’as some person appointed annually to administer this oath to the students. 16. It w’as the Assistant Barrister, was it not ? — I cannot say ; it was some official person, of course, appointed by the Crown, I suppose. 17. What instruction did you receive upon the subject of allegiance, from the Profesors of Dogmatic Theology ? — I do not remember at this moment to have received any instruc- 2 r 2 3r4 January, 1851, sT Rcr. Daniel Lcalijr. What occurred at Maynooth led to immoral conduct subsequently on the mission. The two carnal- minded persons expelled, or obliged to leave college. ■Llh January, 1831. Rev. I). L. Brashie. Previous education of Avitness. Ilis entrance into Maynooth. Studies there. Professors. Teaching as to duty to Sovereign. Taking the oath of allegiance. Instruction as to allegiance. 308 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Hh January, 1854. 35 . Kev. ]1. L. BrasbiG. j)r. Delaliogue’s ]>roposition. Not remembered by witness. AVitness’s ojiinion of teaelling generally. Scripture education. Kvtry student on the establishment furnished with a Bible. Compo.sition of sermons. Teaching as to treatinentuf hercticf As to keeping faith with heretics. Allegiance to heretic sovereigns. AVitness’simiiressior. How produced. tion one way or the other ; it appears to me now that it was a neutral subject altogetlier, and not noticed ; if it was noticed, I, at this moment, quite forget it ; it may have been taught, but I do not noAV recollect ; it is not likely that non-allegiance would be taught in a College supported by the government of the country ; that is not probable or likely. 18. Do you recollect the proposition in the treatise “ De Ecclosia,” which you know is taught in Delahogue, in which it is said that Christ granted to I’eter and his successors, and to the Church, no power, direct or indirect, over the temporalities of kings ; that, moreover, they can never be deposed by the authority of the keys, even indirectly, or their subjects released from the obedience due to them ? — I do not recollect that proposition ; there are many things in L'elahogue that we did not read, and could not read ; any person looking at Delahogue’s worl;s, and taking the academical year into account, will immediately see that no student of ordinary, or even extraordinary capacity, could read, in that time, the entire course. 19. In fact you do not remember tliat proposition being made the subject of lecture ? — Never; it may have been; I do not recollect at this moment; I know that there were many iirojiositions in Delahogue that were not. ;!(). You do not remember any thing about it? — No. 21. No impression is left upon your mind upon the subject? — None whatever. 22. Is there any observation that j'ou wish to make to the Commissioners, in regard to the teacliing at Majmooth generally, independently of the dogmatic questions, wdiich belong peculiarly to the Roman Catholic Church herself?- — I think that the education at Mayuooth is not sufficiently grounded on the Word of God ; I think that the S-criptures should be more frec^ueutly and strictly taught and inculcated in the College than they were in my time ; 1 am sure, that in my time, the Scriptures w'ere made a secondary book ; all the other business of the house w'as attended to with double zeal, and double time w'as devoted to every other tract and treatise, theological or educational. 23. What was the amount of Scripture education which you received, when jmu were at Maynooth ? — In my time, with regard to the junior classes, that is the students of the four first years (the general course was seven years), during tlie first four years the Vice- President of the College, wdio was then, I think. Dr. Montague, since dead, taught two classes in the Old Testament in the week, one on Wednesday, of an hour and a half, and one on Saturday, of an hour ; and the same portion of time w’as allotted to the teaching of the advanced students ; there were two hours and a half oidy allotted to the teaching of the Scripture during the W’eek ; and, taking the academical year into consideration, say six months, wdth vacations and holidays, you will find the number of hours, comparatively speaking, that were allotted to the teaching of Scripture few, to a large class, and, of course, the respective portion of attention to each must have been very trilling. I was two years in the house, and got no call at all from the professor in those two years. 24. Was that in consequence of the great number in the class ? — Y"es. 25. What portion of the Scriptures did you go through in your academical course ? — In the first year we were examined weekly in a chapter of the Old Testament. 20. How many books were gone through ? — At this time I cannot remember. 27. Had you a Testament or a Bible given you when you entered the College ? — Yes ; every student on tlie establishment was furnished with a Bible and a commentary from the College; but, at the same time, they were obliged to deposit a certain sum of money, say A 1(5 or AIT, when they entered. I believe that those students who went in as pensioners did not get those Bibles and Testaments ; hence, there may be a mistake as to that, because when a student says, “ I had no Bible,” a distinction must be made. Every student on the establishment got a copy of Coyne’s Bible, and of Menochius. 28. Did both classes of students get them? — I only know’ of one; those on the establishment all got them. 29. Whether those who were pensioners got them you cannot say ? — No ; I merely heard that they did not. 30. You do not believe that they did? — No; I paid Alfi or ATT as a deposit, not only fi^r theological books, but also for entrance and the physician. I entered on the establish- ment, and passed my examination, and got m_y place in consequence. 31. Did you receive any instruction in the composition of sermons? — Y"es; I preached two in IMaynooth. 32. Were those critically remarked upon? — Yes; the professors generally attended and made their comments on the sermon. 33. 1 )id you receive any particular instruction as to the mode of dealing with heretics ? — It was not taught in my time. There was an article as to burning heretics, but it W’as not inculcated, nor would it be suitable to the spirit of the age to teach it. 34 . As to keejung faith with heretics, was any instruction given ? — The great object has been, and ever will be, to bring them over, if they could, and that in venj fair. 35. Was there any instruction given as to keeping faith with them? — I believe that was not inculcated any more than tlie other. I think they both come under tlie same remark — it was not in my time, so far as I can recollect, inculcated. 30. It was not inculcated that you should not keep faith with lieretics? — It w’as not, so far as I can recollect. 3T. Was any impression left upon your mind that allegiance was not due to the Sovereign, by reason of his being a heretic ? — I think there was an impression made on my mind to that efi'ect. 38. How came that impression to be made ? — Because the reigning monarch was a heretic. 39. In what way was that impression made upon your mind ? — On one occasion the Rev. MI^’UTES OF EVIDENCE. 300 Rev. D. 35. L. Brasbie. ]\Ir. Kenny preached in the house. 'L'he Dahliu priests go down to IMaynootli eveiy i//i Jtmuari/, 1854 . year — they did so at that time — to what is called the retreat, and Dr. Miua'ay with them, who was then commonly called the llomaii Catholic Archbishop ol' Dublin; one-lialf of the Dublin priests went down to the retreat during the summer, and the other Inilf supplied their places in the diocese of Dublin, that is, they remained at home to do the dut}'. J\lr. Kenny, on this occasion, who was a very i)owerful man, was asked to 2 >reach for the i)riests. He was general of the .lesuits. I was anxious to hear liim, in conse- quence of what 1 heard of his oratorical powers, and 1 got into the liall where the ])riests were assembled, to whom the llcv. Dr. Kenny was then preaching. At Unit period it was very Mr. Kenny’s seraion. generally reported through the country that the Komau Catholic chapels would be licensed; this was, I believe, somewhere between the years 1831 and 18.‘J;3, so far as I can recollect; and he, after addressing the jiriests for a considerable time, jiarcnthetically alluded to this rcjiort of having the Homan Catholic chapels licensed, and lie spoke very strongly, indeed, upon that iiarticular jiart of the subject, and made an iinjiression on my mind which I shall not soon forget. He said, “ It is reported that the Government of England intend to license our chapels. Now,” said he, “ every jiricst in this country should stand at the threshold of his chapel, and allow' the soldiers to walk into their chapels over their dead bodies, before they would allow the heretical Government of England to convert them into iniblic houses.” I thought, at the time, that was not allegiance, because those 2 >i'iests had, as I knew, a jiowerful influence over their jieoi^ile, many of whom are ignorant, and consequently su 2 )erstitious ; and I knew that when this doctrine was so firmly im^u’essed upon the minds of those iiriests, when they returned again to their jieoiile, they would make the same impression on the minds of their iieojile. 40. That is the only occasion which you can call to mind when it appeared to be the doctrine at Maynooth that allegiance was not due to the Sovereign, by reason of his being a heretic ? — That is the only occasion that I heard it so ex^u'essly and strongly mentioned. I know that not only on the minds of the students, at that time, but on the minds of the l^riests with whom I afterwards associated, there was, and has been, a strong antipathy to the House of Hanover on the throne of England. 41. W as I )r. Murray jiresent at that sermon of which you s^ieak ? — ^lost decidedly. 42. Was the subject upon which Dr. Kenny preached on that occasion that of deriving a licence to use the chajiels from the lay authorities ? — I cannot, at this time, recollect W'hat was the subject of the discourse, or the object of it. • ’ 43. They objected to receive a licence from the lay authorities to perform the ecclesi- astical functions ? — I do not, at this period of time, recollect what was his text. 44. Was that the ground of his objection? — Those jiarticular ivords were so forcibly impressed on my mind at the time that they obliterated the recollection of every thing else. 45. Was that the ground of his objection? — I cannot sa}'’ what was tlie scope of his arguments, or what he was preaching on at the time at all. 46. Were you at Maynooth at the time Emancipation was granted? — Yes. 47. Do you remember 'whether any celebration of Emancipation took place ? — Yes ; the Feast on tlie occasion College was illuminated, and v,'e were allowed, I think, three or four bottles of wine to pf Emancipation ° . 1 , being granted, every eight students. 48. What happened on that occasion in the hall ? — On that occasion I jierceived nothing, except as on ordinary occasions. St. Patrick’s day and Christmas day were always celebrated in much the same wny. 49. Were the students alone on that occasion? — No; there was generally one of the deans jiresent, always walking u^) and down the refectory. 50. Was he the only officer of the College who was present on that occasion ? — I cannot remember; I think there was a sort of mingling, a sort of saturnalia between the professors and students on that occasion. They were all naturally elated ; and there was singing and amusement, as we had on St. Patrick’s day and Christmas day. 51. There is nothing particular that is fixed upon your memory? — I saw nothing extraordinaiy. 52. Do you recollect the time of Lord Mulgrave’s visit ? — I should think I was not in the College then; I left the College in 1834. 53. Do you remember any song that ■was sung on that occasion, that is, on the granting of Emancijiation ? — There were a great many songs sung ; I do not recollect any j^articular song. I would attach no great importance to anj' song sung on that occasion, w'hether it was one way or the other ; it was a night of glee. 54. You do not recollect any song, on tlie occasion of the Emancipation, that made any particular impression on the students ? — No, I do not. 55. Do you remember any of the College authorities singing on that occasion? — No ; I recollect one of the College authorities singing a song when he was consecrated bishop — Dr. Crotty, of Cloyne. 56. Do you remember a song that was composed by Dr. England? — I have heard it simg. 57. Was it sung on that occasion? — It may have been; I do not remember. 58. Have you heard it sung in IMaynooth ? — As well as I remember, I think that I have heard it sung, but I would not ^lositively swear to that ; not on that iiarticular night, more than any other time. 59. Do you remember its causing any particular imiiression on the students? — I cannot say; but I know they appeared to like it, jierhaps from being composed by one of their own order. 310 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 4t/i January, 1854. 35. Rov. D. L. Brasbic. No teaching contrary to allegiance. Removal of manuple before the “Doinine salvum.” The cause. Not aware that same course is adopted in Roman Catholic countries. Praj’-ers read before mass* ■Witness’s observa- tions as to teaching in Maynooth. Ills action for libel against the President. Sir Robert Peel’s statement in Parliament. 00. Are the Commissioners to understand you to saj', that either there was, or there was not, any thing in the teaching of Maynooth which tended to loosen the allegiance of the subject to the Sovereign ? — There was no express proiiosition such its tliis : “ You shall not pay allegiance to the reigning Sovereign nothing so directly as tliat stated. 01. Or any thing to the effect that allegiance was not due to a person who was a heretic? — No ; I do not remember that it was distinctly taught in that way. It would be veiy had policy in the College of Maynooth, receiving A‘8,000 a-year, to teach that doctrine. There was nothing taught having connexion with allegiance immediately; but there was a circumstance which may have been indirectl}" connected with it, and it w'as this : the priest, celebrating high mass, wears a certain part of his vestments, called the manuple, on the left arm. This manuple is, I believe, of Jewish origin, and it was worn by the Jewish high priests. It was my duty to sing high mass in the College. At the conclusion of mass the praj'er is sung, Domine salvum fac regem, ox reginam, and before the priest sings that, he removes the manuple from his left ai*m. I asked one of the superiors what was the cause of removing this manuple from my arm, and the reply was, that I could not pray for the King or Queen of England in my official or sacerdotal capacity, and then I removed this characteristic of the priesthood ; and this has been always removed, I presume, to the present day; and the priest, as a layman, prayed for the Majesty of England, because he was a heretic. ()2. I)o you mean that the manuple is the only thing in his dress that distinguishes a priest from a layman ? — That was the reason assigned to me ; the other vestments are of pagan origin, with the badge of Christianity insci’ibed on them. ti:3. Are you aware of the fact, that that is exactly the course adopted in Roman Catholic countries, where there is a Roman Catholic monarch? — I am not aware of that fact. 01. Were you in the habit of attending mass in Dublin? — I have never attended mass in this city ; I officiated in the diocese of Dublin. 65. Do you remember the prayer that is pronounced by the priest before, what the Catholics consider, the oftering of the sacrifice of the mass? — I never officiated in Dublin. 06. Did you never attend mass in Dublin? — Never, to my knowledge. 67. Not while you ■were at Maynooth? — No. 68. Do you recollect ■whether that prayer before mass [« hoolc being shoicn to the witness\, was read by the priest from the altar? — The acts of faith, hope, and charity w'ere always read. O'J. But the prayer afterwards before mass? — We generally read some prayer before mass ; at this time I do not remember that si^ecific prayer ; but I remember always reading a praj'^er in Latin before mass in the College of Maynooth. We had a prayer in Maynooth, but I cannot, at this distance of time, say whether that is a translation. 70. In what part of Ireland have j'ou chiefly officiated? — In the diocese of Kerry, in the province of Munster. 71. Have you officiated in the counties of Clare or Gaffiny? — I have never been there as a priest, or otherwise. 72. Do you recollect whether in that Latin prayer that preceded mass at Ma 3 'nooth the King -^vas prayed for? — No, I should think not; so far as I remember, neither the IGng nor Queen wns prayed for. I could almost sajg positively not; j^et I will not say that. 73. Is there any preliminary prayer before mass? — Always, either in the chapel or in the sacrist}'. 74. Did you use this prayer when officiating in Kerry [« table being shown to the tcilness\ ? — I always read the acts of faith, hojie, and charity, which are at the head of that paper, not the subsequent prayer. 75. The Latin prayers of ■which you speak are what the priest reads to himself? — Y"es. 76. Is there any other observation that you wash to make to the Commissioners in regard to the teaching of Maynooth ? — There is one observation that I wish to make with regard to the teaching of Maynooth. The impression on my mind is, that when any head of an establishment is unsound, the members must necessarily be unsound, or when a fountain is corrupt, the streams that flow from it must also be corrupt. Now, I find in the Bible ten commandments ; those commandments w'ere written by the finger of Almighty God on tables of stone, and one of them says, “ Thou shalt not bear false ■w'itness against thy neighbour.” I say that any man wdio violates that commandment cannot be a teacher of morality. I am speaking directly with regard to the President of Maynooth College. Of course, when the head of the College is unsound in his morality, the students generally, who look up to him, must also be unsound in their morality. I can establish that fact. It is a well-known fact, a public fact, that in the year 1847 I brought an action against the President of Maynooth College for a “ gross and malicious” libel. The words marked are read in the printed report of that trial. On that occasion I obtained a verdict from a jury of my countrymen, w'hich jury was composed of seven Protestants and five Roman Catholics — ex Lord Chancellor Blackbume presiding. Again, the late Sir Robert Peel asserted, in his place in the House of Commons, that three students were necessitated to sleep in a bed in Maynooth College. In my time no tw’o students could sleep in one bed ; and I say it to the honoiir of the College, that it was expulsion — the very moment two students were caught in one bed, that moment they were ij)so facto expelled. Sir Robert Peel said that three were accustomed to sleep in one bed, thereby proving that there was not sufficient accommodation. I say that the President of the College of Maynooth, or the professors of the College of Maynooth, or some of the students of the College of Maynooth, should have come forward i^ublicly and denied that fact. It was a misstate- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 311 luent unintentionally made by the late Sir Piobert Peel. lie believed bis informant; and it would have rellected great and immortal honour upon the College if one of those men had come forward and said that it was false and a misstatement ; but it was let run through the land uncontradicted, because it served a certain purpose. These two facts, coupled together, clearly show the difference which exists between the morality taught in the College of ]\Iaynooth, or rather practised by its head, and, by a legitimate inference, by its members also, aiul the morality inculcated in that precept of the Decalogue which says, “ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” 77. Upon that ground you think that the moral teaching of the College is not satis- factory ? — That is one of the grounds. There are others. I think that the treatise on matrimony should never be put into the hands of any student. I do not see what connexion the treatise on matrimony has with the Scripture at all, so far as a young man is concerned. No man, unless he were an angel, could sit down and read those tracts, and the questions and answers inserted in them by foul-mouthed theologians, without feeling. I say it with regret; but it is a fact. Let any gentleman look at those (piestions and answers, and I defy him not to condemn them. Ijct him look at Liguori, and Dens, or Bailly (though Bailly is the class-book, yet a student is at liberty to read the other books), one is just as bad as the other. What connexion has the reading of this filthy matter with the Word of God, or with the salvation of a man’s immortal soul ? How will it take a man to heaven by prying into what happens between a married man and his wife ? 78. Have you any thing to state as to the period of the course at which this is commu- nicated ? It is communicated in the second year of the Divinity course. 79. In the early or latter part of the second year? — There was some other tract read during the whole j^ear — whether it was before Christmas or after I cannot say. It is twenty years ago since I left the College. 80. Was there any thing peculiar in the mode of giving the instruction ? — Nothing more than teaching any thing else. Questions were asked and answers were given in the very same way in which other theological questions were treated. 81. Who was the professor who lectiu’ed you ? — Dr. O’Hanlon, who gave me a very high character at the Ma 3 mooth trial. 82. Was there anything peculiar in his manner in lecturing on this subject? — Nothing whatever ; just as he treated the other tracts during the time. 83. Did he treat the matter seriously ? — Yes ; and I must say there was a seriousness in regard to the students. At the same time, I have known some of them to have felt the delicate position in which they were placed. 81. Do you remember that Dr. O’Haulon ever exhibited any levity on this subject ? — I think the contraiy. 85. Do you remember that any levity was exhibited by tbe students ? — I do not. On the contrary, I recollect seeing one student go on his knees to praj" immediately after reading the tract, which shows the dangerous tendency of it. 80. Was it recommended to the students that they should approach such an unpleasant subject in that spirit? — There was always the prayer before every lesson, “ Veni Creator Spiritus,” a prayer before, and a prayer at the conclusion of every lecture. 87. Do you remember whether the students were warned on that particular topic so calculated, as jmu conceive, to shock their dehcacy ? — I do not recollect that they were specifically warned ; but there was an understanding that it was rather a delicate tract. 88. And to be studied seriously and with caution ? — Yes, certainly, as if the students were put on their guard. It was well known and understood in the house that it was not a nice subject to deal with. 89. Not a matter to be treated lightly ? — No ; on the contraiy, very seriously. 90. The iiortion which treats De Matriinonio is at a different period of the course, is it not, from that which is devoted to the exposition of the sixth commandment in the Boman Catholic Church ? — There is another treatise on the Decalogue which comprises that. 91. Do you recollect at what part of the course that sixth commandment is the subject of instruction — wliether it is at a subsequent part of the course ? — I do not remember — I recollect nothing at all as to that tract. 4.tfi January, 1804. 35 . Ect. 1). L. Brasbie. Uncontradicted by College authorities. Matrimony treatise. Witness lectured on that subject by Dr. O’llaulon. Ills mode of treating it. 92. Have you any recollection whether it was made the subject of instruction imme- diately before taking orders ? — I cannot say. All I can say is, that a treatise on the Decalogue was read in the house ; when, I cannot say. I know it was in one of the theological j^ears, during some portion of that time which is commonly called the divi- nity years. 93. Do jmu recollect whether the students in your time were recommended to postpone tlie consideration of the details of that subject in the sixth commandment until the close of the theological course ? — No, I do not remember that. 9-1. Do you remember whether it was at all the custom for the students who attended this course of lectures, De Matrinwnio, to joke or treat the subject lightly amongst them- ® ® selves when thej’’ were not attending lectures — in their w'alks, for instance ? — No more than saying it was a dirty or a dreadful matter — a horrible matter. They rather took the other view of it, and seriously thought it was filthy stuff’ altogether. 95. They treated it rather with repugnance than in any other way ? — -YYs, positively. 96. Is there any other observation that you would wish to offer on the subject of the education at Majmooth? — I do not recollect anything more at present. [The Witness idthdrew.l 312 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. Ath January, 1S54. 3 ^ Rev. \Vm. J. Burke. Education of witness. Ordained before completing theologi- cal course. His conduct during agrarian disturbances J oined the Protestant Church in 1844. Theological studies in Maynooth. Matrimony treatise. * Oath of allegiance. The llev. William John Burke, examined. 1. You were educated at Maynooth, were you not '? — Yes. 2. Will you state to the Commissioners where you had been previously educated, and at what age you entered the College of Maynooth ? — I was lirst educated in a village school in Kenvare, and by private tutors to the age of thirteen or fourteen ; I was then sent to a private seminary at New Quay, in the County of Clare, and from that I went to tlie seminary of Tuam, where I remained until my entrance to Maynooth, in the year 1825, at the September entrance. 3. Into what class did you enter ? — Humanity. 4. How long did you remain in the College ? — Up to the summer vacation of 1830. 5. Did you go through the whole of the theological course ? — No ; 1 had ague in the the month of April or May, 1830, and I left IMaynooth in ill health ; I was then ordained at home. The bishop was anxious that I would at once enter on the duties of a priest. 1 refused respectfully, and reejuested permission to go on the Continent ; a friend of mine was then an the Continent, and I was anxious to go there. I had entered Tuam very young, and I was anxious to go on the Continent for some three or four years, in order to mix in society, and receive that polish which 1 stood much in need of. The bishop refused this, but consented to my going to the seminary at Waterford, where I spent nearly an academical year ; I was called out by the bishop towards the end of the year, and entered on the duties of a priest in the parish of Petersweli, in the county of Galway, early in the year 1831. 6. How long did you remain there discharging the duties of a priest ? — About two or three months, in very troublesome times : during the agrarian disturbances in Clare and Galway, I was induced by my father to take a very decided part in it. I acted under the proclamation of the Marquis of Anglesea, wherein pardon was promised to those who gave up their arms. I was not content with this, but under the influence of my father, 1 got as many as I could to take the oath of allegiance, before the liev. George Dwyer and .John IMartyn, Esq., j.p. ; and for which I was hunted down !>y the Terry Alts, and the priests, who were highly indignant at the part 1 had taken. 7. You have since joined the Protestant Church? — Yes. 8. At what period did that change take place? — In the year 1844, I publicly came out of the Church of Rome ; but for a considei-able period, previous to that period, I held no communion with that church, and family embarrassment prevented me sooner renouncing lier communion. 9. What was the course of study in the last year of your stay at Maynooth ? — I had two years’ theology. The first year’s theology was de lleligione and de Matrimonio, as well as I can recollect ; I forget what the other was — I know we had “ De Ecclesia” and tlie Deca- logue, and I think censures, the second year. 10. Is there anything wliicli you would wish to state in regard to the teaching at May- nooth, as it passed under your eye, independently of the ])eculiar dogmas of the Roman Catliolic Church, but regarding its operation upon general morals, or upon the duties of citizens to tlie state ? — In regard to general morals, the question has come rather suddenly upon me. On the Treatise “ De Matrimonio,” I recollect the teaching of it with much pain ; I have known many of the young men, when studying certain parts of it, to have gone into the chapel, and to have read it on bended knees ; I saw many young men that I conceived to be not of very strong passions, tbey thought it necessary to go in before wliat they believed to be the body and blood of Christ Jesus, on bended knees. I would say, in a general manner, that the teaching on the matrimony treatise was to me exceedingly disgusting ; and it appeared to me to have a tendency to injure the morals of the young men. 11. In what year was that part of the subject treated in your course?— In 1829. 12. Was that the year in which you studied theology? — Yes. 13. You entered into what is called the Second Humanity Class? — Yes; I read Humanity Logic, Meta])hysics, Ethics, Natural Philosophy, and two years’ Theology in IMaynooth, and a third in Waterford. 14. In what year's theology did what you have before stated occur ? — In the first year. 1 5. In what part of the course ? — “ De Matrimonio.” 16. Was it before or after Christmas? — After Christmas; “ De Religione,” was read before Christmas, and “De Matrimonio,” after Christmas. 1 7. What was the class-book used upon the subject “ De Matrimonio ? — Bailly. 18. Did you attend the lectures of Dr. O’Hanlon on this subject? — Certainly. 19. Was it in the lectures upon the Treatise “ De Matrimonio” that these subjects were treated? — Yes. 20. Were they treated of in any otlier treatise, besides the treatise “ De Matrimonio ?” — No. 21. What diocese did you come from?- — Kilmacduagh and Kilfenora. 22. Do you recollect in what way the oath of allegiance was taken? — I recollect that the Senior Dean came to the freshman’s house late in the evening, prior to our taking the oath of allegiance : he had announced it to the students ; and I never in my life witnessed such consteniation as existed among the students at the idea of swearing allegiance to a Protestant king. The Dean saw the gathering storm and endeavoured to appease it; and he brought over two or three copies of O’Leary’s Treatise on the oath by a Roman Catholic. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 313 In calling over the list, the fullowing morning, there was about one-third of the students who were reported to he on the sick list ; and it was distinctly understood by us that these men feigned sickness, in order to avoid taking the oath of allegiance. Then the two deans, the senior and junior deans walked us to the court-house ; and in going there I was certaiidy a good deal astonished at what 1 witnos.sed. The dean desired us to bring all the Testaments and Bibles in our ])ossession into the court-house ; and 1 think, to the best of my recollection, there might have been live; 1 think, at most, si.K Testaments were all that were produced. When we were ushered into the Grand and Betty Jury bo.ves, there was an awful struggle, each person endeavouring to push forward his fellow to the front of the rails, thereby to avoid laying his hand on these Testaments. At the taking of the oath, the officers of the court told them to rei)oat the words distinctly after him ; and in giving out the words of the oath, there were two young men standing near me, and, 1 distinctly heard them repeat the words of the oath in a negative sense, namely — when the officer said “ I do swear,” they said “1 do not swear.” We were then ushered into the Grand Jury room, and signed a register. We retired then to the College ; and on going thither, those who had feigned sickness taunted us for taking the oatli of allegiance, under the pressure of e.xpulsion, for the Dean deemed it necessary to tell us that it was the feeling that the Statutes of the house re<]uired each student to take the oath under pain of e.xpulsion ; and these men, after we returned, c.xultcd, and taunted those who took the oath, such as did it — or winked at it — for having done it. Many of the young men boasted that they had not repeated the words of the oath, and others said that they had not laid their hands on the Testaments, on which they were sup])osed be to sworn. 23. Were those young men, whose names appeared on the sick list, taken afterwards for the purpose of having the oath administered to them ? — I never heard that they were ; they were not in the year of my freshmanship. 24. Had you a Bible on that occasion?- — No. 25. Had you a Bible while you were in the College ? — Yes I had ; I bought a Bible in the College. 26. Did you buy it from the Bursar ? — Yes. 27. Was that the practice with every student? — No. 28. AYere you a pensioner? — No : 1 entered the house to he a pensioner : I went pre- pared ; hut then one of the students, my predecessor, tvent away, and I entered immediately on the foundation. 29. At what period of the year did you enter? — In September, 1825. 30. I presume you took the oath of allegiance at the Quarter Sessions in the following October ? — Yes. 31. Are you able to call to mind any of those young men who were on the sick-list at that time ? — No ; I could not certainly say. 32. How many students entered that year with you? — As well as I remember, there were some who afterwards entered ; but, if my memory fails me not, 105 entered at the entrance examination; there were others entered afterwards; I entered on one of the three days of the entrance examination. ' 33. AAJio was the Dean who took you to be sworn? — The Senior Dean was theBev. Mr. Dooley. 34. Did he take you to bo sworn ? — Yes; and, as well as I recollect, the Bev. 'I'homas Kelly, afterwards Bo:nan Catholic Primate of Armagh, was the Junior Dean. Botii were taking us to the court-house, as w’ell as I remember. 35. Do you remember Avho was the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions at that time ? — No, I did not, even at the time, know his name, nor could I say, at this distance of time, whether the Chairman presided or not; but the impression is something vague on my mind that he was not even in court ; but 1 cannot say. 36. Was it the custom for every student to have a Bible at that time? — I had one. There were about five Testaments brou.iiht into the court-house. I have not known any of my fellow'-students to have more, 1 think, than two or three. 37. During the whole period of your course ? — Yes. 38. AVas it then the practice, on entering, to ])ut the question to each student whether he had a Bilde or not; and if not, that one should be charged for?— In my time no such question wuis ever ])ut, to my knowledge. 39. Did yon receive any instructions on the obligation of the oath of allegiance while you wci’e in the College? — No, not directly; but I recollect — I do not know' whether it was on censures — but 1 know that the impression on my mind was, that I was not obliged — not bound to allegiance to a Protestant king ; whether it was “do juramento” or censures, I know' not : it w'as not directly said, but the professor told us that, in the reign of Elizabeth, the realm of England w’as placed under interdict, and that that interdict had not been removed ; and that all Protestants w'cre under major excommunication : that the tw'o things did not come at the same time, but at tw'o different times ; and the impression on my mind was, that 1 was not bound in allegiance to a heretical king, and to one under major excommunication. 40. Did you receive any instruction whatever with regard to the authority of the Church in dispensing with the oath of allegiance, or declaring it void ? — 1 received instructions with regard to dispensing with oaths in general. 41. AAdiat instructions did you receive ? — I have taken notes with regard to that; and if the Commissioners will allow me, I will read the notes. 2 s Alh Januanj, 18j4. 33. Rev. Will. J. Hurkc. Feigning of sickness to 11 void. Mode of taking. Bible. Instructions .as to obligation of oath of allegiance. Impression on witness's mind on that subject. 314 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. Ath January, 1854. Hev. 'Win. J. Burke. Instructions as to disx)cnsing power. Witness’s impressions. That interdict in reign of Elizabeth never has been removed. Witness's reason for believing that oaths to heretics do not hind. Two reasons for oath of allegiance not binding. No distinct teaching as to allegiance. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition. 42. What arc tlie notes? — Showing the causes of dispensing with oaths. 43. Arc tliose extracted from the books? — Yes, from Bailly. 44. What instruction did you receive as to the power of the Pope, or of tlie Church, or of any other body, to dispense with the oath of allegiance, or to declare that it was not a binding oath ? — I mentioned that the oath of allegiance was not put forward in a prominent position, but oaths in general. I know the i>rofessor communicated to us the fact that England was placed under interdict in the reign of Elizabeth, and that that interdict had not been removed : whether it was on censures or on oaths I cannot say. 45. Did he tell you that, on that account, the oath was not binding ? — The inference that I drew from it was, that it was not binding ; that was the impression which was left on my mind. 40. And that every confirmed heretic is under interdict? — lie is under major excom- munication. 47. Is an oath taken to such a person not binding? — That was the impression on my mind. 48. Was that the doctrine you were taught ? — Not directly, but it was indirectly taught. 49. Was any such inference drawn by any professor in his teaching ?— First, the causes of dispensing with an oath were set forth : whether on “ oaths” or “ censures” I know not, but either of these two subjects ; and the professor told us distinctly that, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth this realm was placed under an interdict, and that that interdict had not been removed up to that time. 50. Can you state from what doctrine you drew the conclusion that an oath taken, on a matter of civil jurisdiction, with an excommunicated person, or a contract entered into with him, w'as void ? — I do not know vrhether it was “ de juramento,” or on “ censures but where the good of the Church was concerned, which I know was one of the dispensing cases, then the oatli ivas not to be observed. 51. You say that you inferred the oath of allegiance was not binding, in consequence of the kingdom being still under interdict? — A"es; the king being under major excom- munication. 52. You stated that every confirmed heretic was under major excommunication, you were then asked whether an oath taken to a heretic, on a mattter of civil rights, was not binding, you stated that you inferred that it was not. Will you be good enough to state from w'hat proposition you drew that conclusion ? — Be kind enough to bear in mind that we were speaking of the oath of allegiance to a Protestant king. Then that king was represented to us as being laid under interdict, by the professor : it was not in the reading : it is not to be supposed that he communicated it as oral instruction ; it was not directly connected : I cannot say whether it came in under “ censures,” or treating “ de juramento.” 53. From what proposition was it that you drew the inference that interdict is excom- munication ? — It is more than that. 54. Has it a heritable quality, so that it descends ? — It does, until it is removed. The whole kingdom was laid under interdict, and that intertUct had not been removed up to the time of the instruction. 55. What is the effect of an interdict? — In Eoman Catholic countries it is even denying the use of fire and water. 56. Is fire and water now denied to a Roman Cathobc in England? — According to the interdict it would be so. 57. Did you understand that the kingdom was still under interdict, and that all the consequences of interdict were still prevailing in the kingdom ? — I understood that the interdict only referred to Protestants, that was my impression. 58. Did you understand that it would be an act of disobedience to the Church to supply a Protestant in England with fire or water, or to perform any other act of charity to him ? — By the bull of Martin V. they were exempted, unless they were specially named. 59. Was Queen Victoria specially named? — It was not mentioned ; George IV. was then king. 60. Will you be so good as to state how you arrived at the inference that the oath of allegiance was not binding — was it from any thing else l)ut that the kingdom was under an interdict ?— First, the king was a heretic, and, as such, was under major excommunica- tion, and his kingdom was under an interdict ; I had the two matters before me. The latter information coming from the professor, I came to the conclusion that 1 was not bound in allegiance to that king who was under major excommunication, and whose kingdom was under interdict. 61. Had you any distinct teaching in regard to the allegiance which you owed to the Sovereign, or that the oath of allegiance could be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever? — No. 62. There was no head under which that instruction was imparted to you? — No ; not that I remember. 63. Did you read the treatise “ De Ecclcsia?” — Yes. 64. Was there anything about the oath of allegiance in that treatise? — Yes there was. ' 65. Do you recollect this proposition in Dr. Delahogue — “ Christus Petro et ejus successoribus aut Ecclesim nullam concessit potestatem directam vel indirectam in Regum temporalia, proindeque isti nunquam auctoritate clavium, etiam indirecte deponi possunt aut eorum subditi a fide et obedientia illis debita eximi ac dispensari? — I do. 66. Was that proposition ever lectured upon ?— It was. But if you will allow me to say MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 315 tho author was a Dr. of the Sorbonno, and maintained tlie Gallican doctrine, tliat — whereas our professor lield Ultrainontaue opinions, l>eing educated in Majnooth — every body was loft to draw his own conclusion. From tlie doctrine laid down before that proposition was discussed, with regard to John IIuss, John Wickliffe, and Jerome of Frague, tho impression on my mind was that tho Church had power over tlie jiersons of heretics, inasmuch as they handed tliem over to the civil power to be dealt with, and any person who received the writings of those, or disapproved of tho treatment by tho civil power of those, were not good Koman Catholics. G7. Will you have tho goodness to turn to page 225, section G, of the book before you, and say whether that is the passage you refer to, respecting John IIuss and Jerome of Prague ? — Yes. G8. That refers to the burning of the books of heretics? — Yes; and, I believe, further down, with regard to their persons. G9. That passage has reference to the condemnation of the persons of heretics, as well as their books, but has no reference to the duties of subjects ? — Yes. But when the king was a heretic, labouring under major e.xcornmunication, and his kingdom placed under interdict, the inference was evident — it was, at least, to me — and I came to the conclusion that I was not bound in allegiance. Add to this what I had witnessed in Maynooth in my first year, and throughout. At high mass tho royal anthem is sung at the end of mass, and after tho priest has put oil’ his manuple — the manuide is the only part of the priest’s dress which is not borrowed from the Pagan priesthood of Numa Pompilius. This manuple is taken off before he intones the royal anthem. I asked some of the senior students why the priest put off the manuple before he intoned the royal anthem, and they all told me that no priest could pray for a heretical prince while he had the manuple on, which they wear on their left arm ; and when I became myself a divinity student I discovered by the teachings of Maynooth that no priest can pray for a heretic unless in Easter week. In giving out the royal authem it was intoned “ Domine salvum fac Begem.” In my first year of entrance, and sitting in the next seat but one to the authorities of the house, some of the senior students came into the portion of the chapel assigned to the junior students, and I heard those senior students sing the royal anthem thus, “ Domine salvum wdiack Begem and it is my opinion that the authorities of the house must have heard it also. TO. Are you aware that, at present, on every Sunday, the priest, before he commences the service of the mass, reads in the same vestments in which he celebrates the service, this, amongst the prayers for which the service is offered, “ for the Queen, and for all in high places that they may lead a quiet and holy life ”? — It was never read in my time. 71. You are not aware that that is now read ? — I cannot say what has taken place since 1830. I never heard mass there since. 72. Were you at that time at all in the habit of attending the service of the Boman Catholic Church in Dublin ? — No. 73. You are nov,' able to say whether, for a long series of years, that form has been adopted in what the priest reads for the congregation, announcing the purposes for which the service of the mass is offered? — No. I never heard these words read by any priest before mass. 74. Are you not able to state any proposition which was taught from the chair of the professor from wdiich you drew the inference, that the oath of allegiance was not to be kept to a heretical monarch ? — I state this proposition (I cannot lay my hand on it, I will to-morrow) that all Protestants are under major excommunication — that this country was placed under interdict in the reign of Queen Elizabeth ; that that interdict had not been removed up to 1830; and hearing the royal anthem sung, “Domine salvum whack Begem,” having heard from the students that the priest could not pray for a heretic king with the manuple on, I came to the conclusion that I was not bound in allegiance to him. I was in IMaynooth at a very excited period — I was there in 1825, 182G, 1827, 1828, and 1829. I was there at the time that Emancipation was granted and celebrated ; the College authorities supplied xvine on the occasion ; and I was much shocked at v*hat I witnessed that night. The students invited the authorities to join them on the occasion of the celebration, and they did so ; it was celebrated with music and singing. The best singers were selected to sing on this occasion, and among the songs sung that night, was one said to be composed by Dr. England, who was educated in Maynooth — he was Bishop of 4lh January, 1854. Kev. AViu. J. Burke. Lectured upon at Maynooth ; but author was Gallican ; professor, Ultramon- tane. Condemnation of books and persons of lieretics. Putting off manuple after high mass. Domine salvum “ whack” regem. Prayer for the Queen before mass ; Not read in witness’s time. Grounds of witness’s inference that allegiance was not due to a protestant monarch. Feast on occasion of Emancipation. Charleston in America — and this on the occasion song, as far as I can recollect, was the only one encored Dr. England’s song; Part of the song runs thus — “ Columbia’s banner floats on high. Her eaglj seizes on its prey. Then Erin wipe thy tearful eye. And cheer tliy hopes on Patrick’s Day.” The next stanza says — “ The toast we will give is, Albion’s fall. And Erin’s pride, on Patrick’s Day.” At this latter sentiment being uttered the authorities and students were instantly on Eeceptionof. their legs and cheered the sentiment; they encored the song over and over again; and, as well as I recollect, it was the only one that was encored that night. This occurred in the presence of all and every one of the authorities of Maynooth, and not one man stood up to express his disapprobation of such disloyal expressions ; I thought it most extra- ordinary in a College supported by Government ; with men who are supposed to take the 2 s2 31G MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. ilh January, 1854. 38. Rev. Wm. J. Barke. IVIietlior any propo- sition from wliidi witness drew infer- ence tiiat major c.\- communication and interdict rendered oath of allegiance not binding. ■Witness refers to instance of his father's loyalty. Witness left Maynooth a rebel of the first water. Infers nature of instruction from change ia his own feelings. Never joined in prayer for spiritual benefit ot heretics. Prayer-books pos- sessed by witness. oath of allegiance, and to bo loyal men ; professors, &c., receiving large and well-paid salaries, students supported and educated by the State : and on such an occasion when political privileges were conferred on llomanists, that such disloyalty and ingratitude should have been e.xpressed and so openly approved of and encouraged. Every one of the students committed this song to memory, and it was the constant song for months and months, sung in and out of the hearing of all and every one of the authorities, and I never knew, or heard, that any of them expressed his disapprobation of it. 7-5. To revert to the former question. Are you able to state any proposition that rests upon your memory, in which it was laid down by the professor that, wliere excommunica- tion was pronounced against heretics, that it absolved Roman Catholics from allegiance to an heretical monarch ? — If you would kindly allow me to take down that question, I will give an answer to-morrow. 70. The question was, ■n’hether you had any recollection of any proposition from which you drew the inference that the oath of allegiance was not binding when taken to an here- tical monarch ; and your last answer was, that it was taught that heretics were placed under imajor excommunication, and that the kingdom was placed under interdict. The question you arc now asked is, whether, that being so taught, you remember any propo- sition by which it was also taught that where lierctics are placed under major excommu- nication, and where the kingdom was placed under interdict, tliat the oath of allegiance was not binding on the consciences of Roman Catholics, the subjects of an heretical king? — 1 cannot say whether there was or was not ; but this I can say, that I entered tJic College of Maynooth a loyal and fiiithful subject to the King and Constitution, and my father was as loyal a Roman Catholic as I ever met ; if permitted I will give an instance of it. In the year 1819, the Ribbonmen took him to their a])pointed place of meeting, and wanted him to swear to be loyal to them. He said — “ No, 1 have taken the oath of allegiance to be faithful and loyal to my king and country ; you arc rebels, and I cannot be faithful to you and to m\ king.” “ AVe wiU shoot you,” said they. “ You may,” was his reply, “but I die here an honest man for my king and country.” He saw a man rush at him with a screwed bayonet, Avhich he received on his chest. The wound inflicted was severe, having torn the flesh of the breast, the bayonet, entering in between the chest and rib, and he was taken up for dead and brought home. lie bade them dcHance, wrote to the then Lord Lieutenant, and for ten days would not yield ; in the mean time a military party was sent from Athlone to his relief. Being educated by such a parent, it was but natural that I would be possessed of very strong feelings of loyalty. From the open and undisguised disloyalty j>ractised at Maynooth, from what I h.ave witnessed in it, the scenes that took place in 1829, at the time of taking the oath of allegiance, I say I left it a rebel of the first water, thirsting, desiring, and praying for the destruction of the British Empire, and solely because it was Protestant. Those, I say, were my own feelings and sentiments. 77. The question proposed to you is this: AA’hat proposition was taught to you from which you drew the inference, that where there was major excommunication and interdict upon a kingdom, there Roman Catholics were absolved from allegiance to an heretical monarch. Do you recollect any teaching to that eficct in Maynooth? — I cannot at the present moment, but upon to-morrow I will be prepared to answer the question. 78. You do not now remember any instruction to that effect that was conveyed at May- nooth? — 1 do not at present, but will on to-morrow point it out. 79. It is your strong impression that that instruction was conveyed ? — Certainly, when there was such a change in my mind, ])rinciples, and loyalt}'. 1 entered JMaynooth a loyal subject, and 1 left it the vilest rebel. 1 look upon Maynooth as the hot-bed of sedition. 80. AAdio were the deans at the time that the song you have mentioned was sung ? — Mi*. Dooley and I\lr. Renehan, as well as my memory serves mo — either he or the Rev. Mr. Dixon of Armagh — was. 81. Do you recollect any of the students who were jiresent? — All my contemporaries were present, unless such as were absent on leave, or sick in the infirmary. 82. Do you recollect any professors who were present ? — Evei'y one of the professors was ])resent, namely, the President, Dr. Crotty, Alessrs. Alontague, Dooly, Renehan, !M*'Nally, Hanlon, Mdiitehead, Tully, Kelly, &c. 83. Did you, at the time you were a student, join in prayer for the spiritual benefit of heretics — those who were without the pale of the Roman Catholic Church ? — Never. 84. You are not aware that any such prayer was used ? — No, it was not, in my time; distinctly not. 8o. Had you a Roman Catholic prayer-book ? — 1 had ; 1 had a good many of them. 86. Do you recollect the names of any of them ? — I had a Alissal. 87. Had you any English prayer-book? — Yes; in the Alissal there was a blank for the name of the King, but the King of England was never mentioned. 88. Do you remember the names of the Roman Catholic prayer-books in the English language tliat you had? — 1 had a Alissal in English and Latin, 1 had the “ Key of Heaven,” and difterent others. 89. Do you recollect the names of any of the others ? — I may say almost every one used by Roman Catholics, nameh*, a“ Yadc ^lecum,” tlie “ Key of Heaven,” and a Roman Alissal. 90. Had you “ The Garden of the vSoul?” — I could not say, certainly, that I had. I would say, generally speaking, that I had all and every prayer-book at one time or other. There is, in the canon of the Mass, a blank left, where it is to pray for kings ; but, then, the Protestant King of England was never substituted ; nor did I, during thirteen years. that I was a priest, ever pray for him. Ho was never, in Maynooth, j^rayed for. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 317 91. For thirteen years you never prayed for the Eoyal Family? — Never; and 1 never knew a priest to do so. 92. Is there not a prayer, previously to the openinj; of the ]\Iass, wliich is specifically for that purpose? — No, I never saw it ; 1 never heard of it hefore this day. 93. Do you recollect this proposition in Delahngue — “ lllicitum non est sacrificiuin ofiTerre ])ro haweticis ” having been taught at iMaynootli ? — “Do Eucharistia ” 1 read in Water- lord. I know the very contrary was taught in IMaynooth. 94. Was Delahogue'thc class-book in Waterford? — Kcally I cannot say now whether Delahogue or Dens. 95. WTll you look at the proposition, and say whether you were ever taught it any- where, or ever read it before? — I never read it before; the very contrary was the impression on my mind, and that impression was made in Maynooth. 95. You are aware that Delahogue is the class-book that is used in Maynooth? — Yes. 97. Did the professor always take his oj)inion from the class-book, or comment upon it one way or the other? — Dr. OTIanlon was a person e.xceedingly cautious in giving his opinion at the time ; and this caution arose by a regulation of the house. The professor was obliged to answer every objection put by the student; and then it was usual in May- nooth, when a young man was not prepared, for him to sj)eak to a prior man, in case he was asked in class to ])ut the question to the professor; and in doing so. Dr. iMiley put a question to Dr. O'llanlon, at the request of some other student, to give the student time to ])repare the question ; and Dr. IMiley insisted upon his right, and that the professor would answer; but Dr. OTIanlon said he would not answer it, and if the other persevered ho would turn him out. Some cried out that if he was turned out they would go out with him. lie insisted that Dr. iMiley should leave the lecture-room, and then all the students Vvalkcd out with him. This lasted for a week. There nas something like a mutiny among the students, the professor insisting that ho should not answer the question at that time; and I was under the impression that this was the cause of Dr. OTlanlon’s being so very cautious in giving his own opinion— lest he should be attacked by the students, because there was a bad feeling existing between the students and Dr. OTIanlon. 98. According to that, the teaching of the professor was to be inferred, generally, from the tone of the class-book? — Not generally, lie gave the general opinions of the class- book. lie would give the opinions of the reference books. He gave different opinions ; and it was only by the manner in which he spoke that we were to infer what was his o]>inion. 99. You say that the class-books were not considered as determining the doctrine which the professor wished his class to entertain? — No. I can give the Commissioners an instance of it. The cla.ss-book on the Scriptures is Menochius. Now Menochius is very short, and is not prized by the premium students— those who arc working for the premium books. Those reading the Scriptures, and known as premium students, study in the Scripture Class ; and in my time it was looked upon as an evening class, and one for amuse- ment. Now Menochius is a class-book; and he refers, in many cases, to Maldonatus ; and though ]\lenochius is the class-book, the premium men studied not Menochius, but studied Maldonatus, Cornelius, and Estius. Those were the principal commentators that they studied and' went by, and not by the class-book. The same plan was adopted in the theological studies as well as in the Scriptures, so that taking the class-book is not a fair criterion of the teachings of Maynooth. 100. \Yere you one of the premium students? — No. 101. Did the premium students alone study the Scriptures? — Yes. In my time there was one hour every week devoted to the Scri])tures ; and in my time, in Maynooth, all that it w’as supposed 1 studied was ten or eleven chapters of the Book of Genesis, four chapters of the Gospel of St. John, and six or seven chapters of St. Faul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians. I was never called or interrogated in class but once ; and I think, and it was my opinion then, that some of the students were never interrogated in class; and the Scripture Class was looked on, in my time, as no more than one of the evening classes — ■ that is, a place for amusement. We went to the Irish Class for our amusement, and we went to the Belles Lettres Class for our amusement — except the premium men, those men who were trying to get premiums. \_The Witness n'ithdreuK~\ ■Uh January, 1 b . j 4 . 36. Kev. Wrii. J. Uurke. ])r. O Hanlon’s caution in tri'ing liis opinion in class. Its origin. Scripture studies. bth January, 1854 . 1. You stated yesterday that you would consider certain questions that were put to vou. Will you now proceed with any statement that you wish to make to the Commissioners ? — I have looked over the questions that were put to me yesterday, which were these — “ What was the teaching given to you at IMaynooth, as to the power of the Church in temporal matters ?” And again, “ What proposition was taught to you from which you draw the inference, that where the king was a heretic and under major excommunication and an interdict upon his kingdom, all Homan Catholics were absolved from allegiance to a heretical monarch ?” I hold in my hand a book, the title of which is “ The Church of Home.”* At page 27 a passage is quoted from Thomas Aquinas, whose work is much * The title of the book from vrhich the ivitness made his extracts is “The Church of Rome: her present !Moral Theology, Scriptural Instruction, and Canon Law. A Report on the Books and Documents of the Papacy deposited in the University Library of Cambridge, the Bodleian Library, Oxiord, and the Library of Trinity College, Dublin.” London; Partridge and Oakey, 1852 . Thursday, 5th January, 1854. The Ilev. William John Burke, further examined. I bth January, 1854. Kev. Wm. J. Burke. Witness refers to “ the Church of Rome.” Extracts given by witness to account for impressions on his mind as to effect of excommunication and interdict. 318 MAYXOOTH COMMISSION. respected at ^lavnooth — it is one of the reference tvorhs : — “Any one may, without a violation of charity, wish temporal evil to another, and rejoice if it befals him; not inas- much as it is evil to him, hut inasinucli as it is an impediment of evils to another, whom he is liound to love more, either to the commonwealth or the Church. Likewise he may rejoice at the temporal evil of the same person as to this, that by the evil of the punish- ment, the evil of the sin is frequently prevented. “ Hence,” saith Bail!}’, “ it is lawful to wish that death may justly hajipen to a heresiarch or a malefactor injurious to the rejniblic, and to rejoice in it ; not as far as it is evil to him, but because good shall arise thence to the community.” Again, in page 65 of the class-book, Bailly, there is another quotation from St. Augustine. I have read this in the College. I do not speak from recol- lection, but 1 speak from the class-book. 2. And your object is to account for the impression made on your mind as to excommu- nication and interdict? — Yes. This is the quotation: “Whosoever shall have been separated from this Catholic Church, however laudably he may think himself to live, for this sole crime, that he is severed from Christianity, he shall not have life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Then 1 go to tome 2, page 19 : “ A man who judges that the trutli of the faitli which the Church proposes as revealed, is not certain, and that the Church, in proposing the verities of faith, is not infallible, incurs tlie penalties decreed against heretics.” The author proceeds: “You will then ask, what are the penalties decreed against heretics ?” He mentions that there are many incurred under the civil law ; and then continues : “ The first spiritual punishment annexed to heresy by the canon law is major excommun ication, ipso facto, decreed against it (cap. 9 and 10, “ l)e llaereticis.” By the consent of the doctors, occult heresy is sufficient, provided it be external, that is, declared by word, deed, or sign, although no person wex-e pi’esent, because then it is really cognizable; but hei'esy merely intenial is not subject to this excommunication, nor to other ecclesiastical punishments, because the Church docs not judge of internal things.” Now 1 go to page 37 of this volume, and I find there a canon law (9 and 10 Helahogue “ He Ecclesia,” page 43). “ The second pi-opositioxx is ‘ Schismatics,’ even those who do not err in doctrine, by the fact of their scliism alone, ai'e shut out from the Church, and are witliout tlie way of salvation.” In the same page there is this also laid down : “ Therefore the doctrine is again confirmed, that all hei'etics whom the Church rejects do not belong to her, and ai’e out of tlxe way of salvation.” Then at 42 or 43, “ He Ecclesia,” the third proposition is, “ The society of Protestants cannot clear themselves from the guilt of schism.” ’Then at the 221st page, in nxaintaining that the Church cannot err in dogmatic facts, the last ai'gument is as follows — “ We take our last example from the formula by which the Council of Constance, held in the j^ear 1418, orders, in her last session, those to bo inteiTOgated wdio are suspected of the erroi’s of Wicklili'e or John Huss, viz., wdiether they believe that the condemnations of Wickliffe, John Huss, and Jerome of Prague, pronounced on their persons, books, and documents, by the Sacred General Council of Constance, wei’e dixly and justly made, and to he believed and firmly asserted as such by every Catholic? Also, whether they believe, hold, and assei’t, that John Wickliffe, John Huss, and .Jerome of Prague, were heretics, and to be called and considered as heretics ; and that their books and docti’ines were and are pervei'se ; on account of which books, and wdiich doctrines, and their peiJinacity, they were condemned as heretics l)y the Saci’ed General Council? Therefore,” the author I’emai-ks, “the Council of Constance oi'ders, tliat every one who would be considered a Catliolic should condenxn the books not less than the doctrines of hei’ctics ; nay, tlieir pei'sons also, lest under the pretence of excusing pei'sons so notoriously heretics, their error nxight be defended.” Then, in page 222, the author also cites Tournelly, to prove (“Church of Koixxe,” 38) “ That nothing was done in the cause of Jansenius by the Church of which she had not the form and example in the ages tliat had gone bjq confirmed by her pei'petual practice and by tradition, whethei', when she condemned tlie doctidne of the book of Jansenius, expressed in five propositions, or when she compelled all to subscribe the formula of Alexander YIL, or when she punished the rebellious and contumacious.” Now I go back to page 28 of “ The Church of Rome,” to the law of major excommunication, ipso facto, and I refer to page 37 of the Chui’ch of Rome (cap. 9 and iO “ He llaereticis”), as quoted befoi'e in the case of John Huss and .Jerome of Prague. I now come to intei'dict, and the canon law I refer to is chapter 9 and 10 de Haei'eticis ; and I find in page 57 of The Church of Rome, “ AVhat are the punishments decreed against heretics?” Then the canon laws quoted to jxrove them under the sentence it pi-onounces, are cap. 9 and 10 “He llaereticis” — that is the 9th and 10th chapters on heretics, from the Hecretals of Gregory (Lib. 5, Tit. 7) in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Hei’e we find (cap. 9) a Hcci’etal or Bull of Lucius HI., a.d. 1181, beginning “ ad abolendam,” (page 58). The first sentence of this document is, “ AVe bind with the chain of pei’petual anathema all those who do not fear to think or to teach othei’wise than the Holy Roman Church teaches and observes of the sacrament of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, or of baptism, or the confession of sins, of matrimony, or of the other sacraments of the Church; and genei’ally, whomsoever the same Roman Church, or each of the bishops through their dioceses with the advice of their clei'gy, or the clergy themselves, if the see is vacant, with the advice, if need be, of the neighbouring bishops, shall have judged as heretics.” Then I pass on to the 10th chapter of this canon law, beginning “ A'ergentis.” It is a decretal of Innocent the Third, the Pope who presided ever the fourth Latei’an Council, and it runs thus : — “ For since according to the legitimate sanctions in the case of those who are capitally punished for the crime of treason their propei’ty is confiscated, life alone being left to their children out of pity ; how much more .AriNL^TES OF EVIDENCE. 319 ouglit those wiio, erring in tlie faith, ofioiul .Tesns Christ, the Son of tlic I.ord God, he cut oth January, i854. olf from our lic;ul, wliich is Clirist, hy tlio rigour of the Church, luul deprived of their temporal goods, since it is hy far a greater crime to offend the Eternal i\lajesty than an j‘ Burke, earthly monarch. Nor ought the disinheritauco of orthodox children by any means pre- vent the censure of this severity under the pretext of any sort of compassion, since, in many cases, even according to tlic divine judgment, cliildren arc temporally punished for their parents ; and, according to the canonical sanctions, vengeance is sometimes inflicted not only on the authors of wichedness, hut also on the ])rogcny of those who arc condemned.” 3. That is the passage referred to by llailly? — Ves ; I would now refer to Bailly, tome Refcrenee to Bailly 3, page 49, on censures — page 5[) of “ The Church of Horae.” “ The same is evident (viz., ^L'lsures. the power of the Church to inflict censures) from the innumerable excommunications and suspensions which have been decreed against heretics or others in councils assembled from the beginning of the Church, and especially in the Council of Trent.” At page GO of “ The Church of Rome,” the next canon cited, as extracted from Bailly, is under the head of “Who are those who can bo bound hy censures ?” Bailly, tome 3, page 52, “ The answer to this, viz. ‘ baptized persons,’ and the assertion that ‘ the Church has jurisdiction over heretics, apostates, and schismatics because they are subjected to her by baptism,’ is ratified by tlie canon law, DeJadeeis. It is taken from Decreti, Rrima Pars, Dist. 45, cap. 5 It is a canon from the fourth Council of Toledo, and is as follows : — ‘ But concerning Jews, (G 1 “ Church of Rome”) the holy Synod commands that no violence shall be inflicted to compel any person to believe, for ‘ God hath compassion on whom he will, and whom he will ho hardens ; for such are not to be saved against their will, but willing, that the form of justice may be preserved entire. For as man, obeying the serpent by the choice of his own Avill, perished, thus the grace of God calling him, every one is saved by believing with the con- version of his own mind. Therefore they are to be persuaded rather than impelled to bo converted ; not by force, but by the faculty of their free will. But those who have been before compelled to come to Christianity (as was done in the time of the most religious prince Sisebutus), because it appears that they are now associated with the divine sacra- ments, and have received the grace of baptism, and have been anointed with chrism, and have been made partakers of the body and blood of the Lord ; it is fit that they should be compelled to hold that faith which they have received even by force or necessity, lest the name of the Lord be blasphemed, and the faith which they have received be accounted vile and contemptible.” 4. Is that referred to in any part of Bailly ? — Yes, it is ; tome 3, page 52, on censures: — “ The next Canon Law (G 1 ‘ Church of Rome,’ ”) to be referred to is in the treatise on censures as to the effects of excommunication, one of which, as we have seen (pp. 32, 33,) is the privation of the prayers of the Church.” There is a passage at page G2 of “ The Church of Rome,” taken from the decree of Gregory, “ If an excommunicated person dies in excom- munication, however contrite he may have been before his death, no communication is to be held with him before absolution, nor is he to be prayed for.” Bailly says, at p. 90, tome 3, (33 Church of Rome) “ Hence a priest or clergyman would commit a grievous sin, who should offer the sacrifice publicly in the name of the Church for those excommunicated, in the canonical hours, because he would transgress the command of the Church in a grave matter ; the apjilication of the suffrages so made for them would be invalid, because the Church, the dispenser of those suffrages, makes this application void.” From tliis passage in Bailly, it is clear, no priest can pray for a heretic king. Now the authority in canon law is “ cap. Sacro, cap. Cum desideris, cap. A nobis, cap. Sacris de sent. Excoyn.” Again in Bailly, tome 3, page 90, “ The day and the office of Easter ought to be excepted, in which the Church, in imitation of Christ our Lord, who on that day prayed for his enemies, pours forth public prayers for heretics and schismatics, though they be excommunicated.” I go now to “H Nobis,” quoted at page 90 of Bailly, (G2 Church of Rome), “If an excom- municated person dies in excommunication, however contrite he may have been before his death, no communication is to be held with him before absolution, nor is he to be prayed for, although he is absolved before God. But if his preceding contrition is made apparent to the Church, he shall be absolved even after death, by the person by whom he should have been absolved while Imng, and his heirs are compelled by the Church to make satisfaction for him.” I now go to censures, and the privation of Christian burial, at page G3 of “ The Church of Rome.” The next canon law that has been cited from Bailly, relates to the privation of Christian burial as one of the effects of excommunication. It is proved from Decret. Gregory, Lib. III. Tit. 28, cap. 12, Sacris. The heading of it is, “ If the bones of those excommunicated be buried in consecrated ground, and can be discriminated from the others, they ought to be dug up and cast out in some place near.” 5. \Yhere is that referred to inBaill}-'? — Tome 3, page 90. It is also from Innocent Reference to III., “ That cemeteries in which it happens that the bodies of the excommunicated have been interred, shall be reconciled by the sprinkling of water solemnly blessed.” There is also in Cabassutius, at i)age 72, of “ The Church of Rome ” G. Did you read Cabassutius in Maynooth ?— No, I read it out of it ; I am only referring to a class-book of IMaynooth. 7. For the Dunboyne students ? — A'es. “ Heretics also, and those who favour and receive them, the ancient law excommunicates ipso facto, without any reservation to the Pope, cap. Secut ait, and cap. Excomyyiunicamus de Hcereticis, and cap. Noverit de Sent. Excom- municationis. Absolution from this excommunication the Bulla Ccena afterwards reserved to the Pope. But the Council of Trent (Sess. 14, cap. C, de Rcforynatioyie) reserved it to 320 iJAY2s^OOTII COMMISSIOX. oth Janiiury, 16')4. "sil Kev. Will. J. Burke Continuation of extracts. the bishops of tlie respective ])laces alone, which Triclentine law we use hi France. This is also to be observed in tlie aforesaid cases, of striking the clergy, simony, jiresumjition, arson, sacrilegious rapine, ivith burglary, conveying arms to inlidels; — falsilication of apos- tolic rescripts and heresy ; that excommunication ipso fac/o is not only incurred by those who are guilty of them, but also by those who afford counsel, assistance, or shelter to them, as the afore.said canons and the apostolical bulls ordain.” Here, again, Bailly on canon law, page () 1 of “ The Church of Home,” as to the privation of civil society, “ A person know- ingly holding communication with an excommunicated person in his crimes, is excommuni- cated, and unless some difficulty ])revent, ought to be absolved by the person who has excommunicated him with an oath.” Again at 6.5, which I particulurly want to read ; Let no man receive or reject any persons excommunicated by priests before a just examination of either party, nor hold communication with them in prayer, or meat, or drink, or kiss, nor let him say ave to them; because, whosoever shall in these or in other things prohibited, knowingly hold communication with tho.se who arc excommunicated according to the insti- tution of the Apostle, shall himself be subjected to a like excommunication.” Again, at page G6, •' Because in the j)arts of Toulouse” (cited on the authority of Bailly, tome 3, page 13'j), “ and other places of heretics, whom some call Gazari, some Batarenes, and others by some other names, a damnable ])crversity hath prevailed, we decree that they and those who defend and receive them, shall be placed under anathema, aiul we prohibit under anathema that any shall presume to have them, or to entertain them in their house or in their terri- tory, or to carry on any negociation with them. But if any shall die in this iniquity, neither under pretence of any ])rivilegcs of ours granted to any such, nor under any other ])retext whatsoever, let any offering be made for them, nor let them receive burial amoraj Chris- tians.” That is the canon law on interdict. 8. From what is that a citation ? — From the canon referred to by Bailly. 9. What is the canon? — It is from the third Lateran Council in the year 1179, under Alexander III. 10. What is the passage in Bailly that refers to it? — It is in the third volume, page 139. It is quoted by Bailly, de Ilereticis, “ Whosoever shall have presumed to give knowingly Christian burial to heretics — those who believe, receive, defend, or favour them, let him know that lie is placed under sentence of excommunication till lie shall have made suitable satisfaction. 27or let them de.serve the benefit of absolution till, with their own hands, they shall publicly drag from the tomb and cast out the bodies of damned persons of this sort, and let that spot be destitute of sepulture for ever.” Again, ” We inhibit also that it should be lawful for any lay person, publicly or privately, to dispute about the Catholic faith. Whosoever shall do otherwise let him be bound with the cord of excommunication. Kow 1 go back again to page 32 of “ Tlie Church of Home,” and treating of the effects of excommunication at page 90 of Bailly, it is stated — “ A person excommunicated by major excommunication or greater excommunication is deprived of the common suffrages of the Church, that is, of the sacrifices, prayers, indulgences, and other good works which are performed in the name of the Church (cap. 2S and 78, de Sent. Excom.) And tliis effect takes ])lace — first, even in those excommunicated wito are tolerated, such as English Pro- testants, as they are not in any way relieved by the bull of Martin V. ; secondly, in all those excommunicated who have not been absolved, even though they may bo jierfectly contrite, and so reconciled to God ; for since the censure is taken away only liy the absolu- tion of the Cluu’ch ; this consequently remains in all who arc not absolved, however contrite they be. and hence it carries on its effect in them.” “ Hence a priest or clergyman would commit a grievous sin who should offer the sacrifice publicly in the name of the Church for those excommunicated, in the canonical hours, because he would transgress the command of the Church in a grave matter — nay, the application of the suffrages so made for them would be invalid, because the Churcli, the dispenser of those suffrages, makes this appli- cation void.” “ The day and the office of Easter ought to be excejitcd, in wdiich the Church, in imitation of Christ our Lord, who on that day pi-ayed for his enemies, pours forth jniblic prayers for heretics and schismatics, though they be excommunicated.” — Bailly, tom, 3, page 90. Now, by this it is evident that the priest cannot pray for a heretic, or one labouring under major excommunication, and as such tlie priest acted in accordance with the teaching of Maynooth, in taking off the manuple, and intoning the royal anthem after mass was over. The canon of the mass is over before the de profundis is commenced, and the priest turns round and says *• Ite missa est,” announcing to the congregation that the mass is over. 1 will now go back to oaths — that is at tome 3, page 90 — and here also is Butler’s Catechism, lesson the twenty-first. 11. Is that the Catechism used at iMaynooth? — The Catechism used throughout all Ireland, and recommended by the Bishops of the Church of Home. 13. To what jiage do you refer now? — Page .63. 12. Was this used at Maynooth in your lime? — Ao Catechism was u.sed in my time. 14. Is it printed by authority? — Yes. 15. What punishment has the Church decreed to those who neglect to receive the euchari.st at Easter? — They are to be excluded from the house of God whilst living, and deprived of Christian burial when they die — (2 1st canon Fourth Council of Lateran).* That passage denies them Christian burial. ■* Nole xnhseq ietitl’j adhl h}! If the .3rd canon of the Fourth Council of Laterian were expunged, .mJ not received. Dr. Dovle, who was one of the first canoniit.s of his day, would have made the above the Twentieih and not the Twenty-tirst canon of the Council of Lateran. MI^’UTES OF EVIDENCE. 321 IG. Did YOU ever know, in your experience as a clergyman, that any person wlio had not received the Sacrament at Easter was excluded from Cliristian burial? — No. Tliis is a missionary country — the Homan Catholics have not tlie power; hut in 1' ranee and Sj)ain, wliere tliey have, they do it; and tlie way is this: the body is interred in tlie lirst cross- road, with a stake thrust througli the body. 17. That is not in force in Ireland ? — It would he if it could ho. 18. Is it in force in Ireland? — No; it cannot be in force in Ireland — it cannot be — if it could it would. ly. What is meant by Christian burial ? — It is meant by Christian burial that the ])riest goes, and that he reads the appointed service at interment — that is, proi)erly S{)eaking, Christian burial in this country. 20. In point of fact, did you, while a priest in the Roman Catholic Church, refuse to officiate at the funei'al of a person because he had not communicated in the preceding Easter? — 1 never refused any ])erson. 21. Such a rule is not in force in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, is it ? — There is no rule with regard to it in Ireland. The chief rule is, that when persons give a half crown to have mass said, it is done. 22. In point of iact the rule is not enforced in Ireland among the Roman Catholics? — No. I do not believe that they have the power to do it. 2.3. Whether for money or conscience sake, they do not, in fact, enforce it? — I do not think they do. 24. Do you know that burial is ever refused in consequence of persons not communicating at Easter? — I never knew a case of it; but 1 know that the priests are taught, and do teach that it is a duty if they could enforce it — but this being a missionary and Protestant country it cannot be enforced. 25. Do you mean, when you say that it c.nnnot he enforced, that by the laws of this country a Roman Catholic priest woidd not 1)C at liberty to refuse burial ? — I mean to say this — that in this country a Roman Catholic priest could not bring the remains of a person not going to his Easter duty, and inter them at the first cross-roads, and thrust a stake through the body. 26. Be good enough to distinguish between burying in cross-roads and not burying in consecrated ground. Is there any thing in the law to prevent a clergyman from declining to attend at the funeral of one of his flock who has not communicated at Easter? — No, not in the law of the land, but there is in the canon law. 27. Docs he, in point of fact, decline to attend at the funeral of such a person? — I do not know of a case. I am not aware of it. In my own case I know I always attended. I come now to the Decalogue — “ de Juramento” — page 17, in “ The Church of Rome,” vol. 2, p. 119 of Bailly : — “A ])romissory oath obliges, under penalty of mortal sin, unless a legitimate cause excuses ; but there are many causes which ])revent or take away the obligation of an oath.” Then the causes are enumerated in 119 and 120, and there arc seven causes. There are five enumerated in page 121, which take away the obligation after it had been induced. There are seven enumerated which prevent any obligation being induced by an oath (pages 119 and 120). There are five enumerated which take away the obligation after it had been induced. The seventh one runs thus — “ Excuses from the obligation of an oath is the limitation of the intention of the swearer, etthcr expressed, or even tacit and understood according to the disposition of the law', or accord- ing to custom — for in every oath certain general conditions arc included by law' and custom — e. g., ‘If you accept’ — ‘Unless you remit — -‘Saving the right of another.’” Now on that head I recollect distinctly, that saving the right of another w'as explained to us as the right of the superior. Then, at page 121 — “ The oath being made void by him (“Church of Rome,” 18) to whom the person who sw'ears, or the matter of the oath is subject, thus the superior of regulars can validly, even without any cause, make void the oaths of his subjects.” 28. That is an oath of allegiance taken to him? — No. “The fifth cause is a ‘dispensation or a commutation made by a superior.’ ” Then, “ There are, how'ever, four cases in which a promise, even accepted by another, can be relaxed or commuted ; first, according to St. Thomas Aquinas, quaest. 89, art. 9, when it is doubtful whether the oath is valid or not valid, or the thing promised lawful or unlawful. Second, Avhen the j>ublic good is in question, which ought to be preferred to private. Third, as a j)unishment of any crime committed by him who accepted it, if he treats about a matter which is subject to a superior. Fourth, on account of any injury clone to the person who sw'ears, as if the oath has been extracted by fear or fraud.” Then in page 122 Bailly, tome 2, the author then states, that, he “ will speak of those who can dispense in an oath wdien he comes to treat of vows.” On proceeding to this treatise, in page 140, w'e see, “ There exists in the Church a pow’cr of dispensing in oaths and vows.” “This is proved, first, from the Scriptures, (Matthew xvi.) ‘ Whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.’ These ivords, since they are general, signify not only the g)ower of loosing the bands of sins, but also of vows and oaths.” “ It is proved, secondly, from the perpetual usage of the Church, as appears from the decretals of Gregory IX., pages 140, 141, &c.” I now jeass to page 145 of the treatise, “ You will ask what are just causes of dispensation from vows” — and I hope the Commissioners will bear in mind what has gone before, that vows and oaths are the same with respect to dispensation — the answer is, “ The following are enumerated — the honour of God, the utility of the Church.” [ The B'itncss withdrew,~\ 2 t bill Jan nan/, IH54. 36. Rov. Wu). ,1. Hurke. Wlietlicr riiristiiiii Inirial (leiiiud in fact. Rule not enforced in Ireliind. Why ? Continuation of e.xtracts — Bailly. Causes preventing and e.xcusing from obligation of oaths. Four cases in which promises can be rela.xcd or com- muted according to Bt. Thomas. 322 MAYXOOTII CO.ADIISSION. Cth January, 1854. 3 ^ Kev. Wm. J. Burke. Seven causes of dis- pensation with vows. Inference of the uutlior of tlie “ Cliurch of Rome” that these seven causes prevent the obligation of an oath. Because dispensing powers exists botli as to oaths and vows. Refers to Dr. iMcIlale's evidence in 1828 . I’assage in Bailly refers to vows. Not directly to oaths. Friday, Gth January, 1854. The Rev. William John Burke, further examined. 1. You wish now to continue your statement, wliicli you commenced yesterday, and to show the grounds upon which your mind was led to conclude that an heretical sovereign had not a claim upon your allegiance? — Yes ; the heading is, “ On Oaths and Vows,” in page 19 of “ The Church of Rome.” 2. Roes this relate to excommunication or interdict ? — It refers to allegiance. In page 145 of the decretals of Gregory, “ There exists in the Church a power of dispensing in oaths and vows. This is proved, first, from the Scriptures, (Matthew xvi.) ‘ Whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.’ These words, since they are general, signify not only the power of loosing the bands of sins, but also of vows and oaths. It is proved, secondly, from the perpetual usage of the Church, as appears from the decretals of Gregory IX., pages 140, 141,” &c. Further, in page 145, it is said : “ You will ask what are just causes of dispensation from vows?” (It has been stated that vows and oaths are the same in respect of dispensation).* The answer is, “ The following are enumerated ; The honour of God ; the utilitij of the Church ; the common good of the commonwealth, or of society, as when strifes, which divide famihes, are to be assuaged by a marriage, or an illustrious family, that would be profitable to the kingdom, is to be preserved ; a moral danger of frequently violating the vow from frailty ; levity of mind ; the spiritual good of the person who makes the vow ; perturbation of mind ; fear from which the vow was made ; a notable difficulty supervening on the execution of tlie vow ; a doubt as to its obligation or vahdity, and other things of that sort which can be referred generally to piety, spiritual utility, and necessity. It appears, then, from this, that there are, first, seven causes which prevent an oath from imjiosing any obligation.” 3. Those are seven causes for dispensing with what? — With oaths and vows. The dis- pensation in oaths and vows is perfectly the same. There exists in the Church a power of dispensing in oaths and vows. 4. You allege that the same causes which dispense with vows dispense with oaths ? — Yes. 5. Is there any other passage upon that subject that you wish to quote? — Xo. But I refer back now to pages 1 1 9 6. What is the passage in Bailly which immediately precedes the enumeration of those seven causes ? — I have not Bailly before me. 7. This is Bailly — [the book being shown to the witness] — and you are asked whether that passage is not, “ Qucenain sint poenm contra hmreticos latae ;” and whetiier that is the passage that immediately precedes the enumeration, of which you have read the translation? — These are what I have read. 8. Is that the question to which the enumeration, of which you have read the translation, is the answer ? — Yes. 9. The question to which that enumeration is the answer, is the question as to the power of dispensing with vows ? — Yes. 10. How do you establish that all which is said there in regard to vows is equally applied by tlie author to oaths ? — Xamely, that the Church has the jiower of disjicnsing in oaths and vows. 1 1 . The question is, how do you establish that that enumeration which is there given in reply to the question with regard to the poiver of dispensing from vows is applied by the author equally to the power of dispensing w’ith oaths ? — I will give the authority of a professor of Maynooth on the suliject. Hr. McIIale, a Professor of Theolog}' in Maynooth, and now the Romish Archbishop of Tuam, swears, on his examination before the Commis- sioners of Education, in 1826, that the Church has the power of dispensing in oaths, when the good of the Church requires it. According to his sworn evidence, if the good of the Romish Church requires the Roman Catholics of this realm to renounce their allegiance to Queen Victoria, that Church teaches and claims the power of absolving them from their allegiance ; and she alone can judge what is the good of the Church. 12. At present the question is, whether the extract from Bailly, which you have read, applies to oaths or to vows, or to both ? — It applies to vows. 13. Hoes the passage apply to oaths? — Inasmuch as the Church has the power (and it is laid doivn) of dispensing in oaths and vows, the same power of dispensing in the one it claims in the other. 14. Ho you say that that passage in Bailly applies to oaths as well as to vows? — No, not directly ; but I do not, perhaps, make myself understood. The Church claims the power of dispensing in oaths and vows. 15. We are no5V dealing with this particular passage in Bailly, in which he specifies seven causes for dispensing with vows. Ho you allege that Bailly, in that passage, lays down, either expressly or by inference, that the same causes are causes for dispensing with oaths ? — Bailly lays down that the Church has — 16. Does Bailly lay down that there is a power to dispense with oaths, as well as with vows, under the same circumstances in which he specifies that vows may be disjiensed with ? Hoes he apply the proposition to oaths as well as to vows ? — lie claims for the Church the power of dispensing Avith oaths as well as voavs. 17. The question is, not whether the Church has the power of dispensing with oaths as well as voavs, but whether the Church has the power, according to Bailly, of dispensing ■* This parenthesis is a statement of the author of “ The Church of Rome.” MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. .‘ 12.3 with oaths, umler the seven circumstances specified in the passage which you have read? — I liave taken it in that sense, that she could dispense where the utility of the Church required it, and I am not singular in that opinion. 18. Do you now say that Eailly lays down in that passage, that oaths may be dispensed with as well as vows? — Not in that particular passage. 19. Are you able to point out any other passage in which Bailly lays down that, under the circumstances specified in what you have read, oaths maybe dispensed with ? — No; but I will refer the Commissioners to pages 120 and 121, where the "words are — “Excuses from the obligations of an oath is the limitation of the intention of the swearer, either expressed or even tacit and understood, according to the disposition of the law, or according to custom ; for in every oath certain general conditions arc included by law and custom” (“ Churcli of Rome,” 17). 20. Do you allege that in that passage oaths arc dispensed with under the same circum- stances which are applied to vows in the passage you have already read ; or can you point out any part of Bailly’s work in which he lays down that the same causes which are suflicient to dispense witli vows are also sufficient to dispense with oaths ? — I can : pages 119 and 120. 21. Be good enough to read the passage from pages 120 and 121, wliichlays down that the same causes which, in 1 45, are stated as causes for dispensing with vows have a similar effect with respect to oaths? — In the seventh cause I find, “saving the right of another.” 22. Proceed to state any passages from 120 and 121 in which you allege that similar causes are applied to dispensing with oaths which, in 145, are applied to dispensing with vows ? — Excusing from the obligation of an oath : these are the seven causes. Let us not confound the seventh witli the 8th cause. The eighth cause is applied to a vow, and seven causes are applied to an oath. 23. Are they the same? — No. 24. Then the causes for dispensing with vows, which you read from 145, do not apply to oaths ? — The author* says they do, inasmuch as power is vested in the Church of dispensing with oaths and vows. 25. Does Bailly say that the same causes which dispense with vows also dispense with oaths? — No, he does not, generally. 26. What is there to prove that the causes under which the author holds that the Church may dispense with vows are also the same under which he holds that the Church may dispense with oaths ? — That the Church has the power of dispensing with oaths and vows, w’hen the good of the Romish Church requires it. 27. Is that the only answer that you can give to the question ? — At the present moment, it is. 28. You hold that, because the Church can dispense with both oaths and vows, or is held to have that power, she must, of necessity, be held to be able and disposed to dispense, under the same circumstances, with both ? — Yes; for in the seventh cause of dispensing with oaths it says — “Excuses from the obligation of an oath is the limitation of the inten- tion of the swearer, either expressed or even tacit and understood, according to the dispo- sition of the law, or according to custom ; for in every oath certain general conditions are included by law and custom — e. ‘ If you accept,’ ‘unless you remit,’ ‘saving the right of another.’” 29. Would you not rather infer that the causes are different, from the fact of there being two separate enumerations — one of the causes for dispensing with oaths, and the other of the causes for dispensing with vows ? — It specifies here “ saving the right of another.” 30. Are you aware of any difference between oaths and vows, as treated by Bailly ? — A vow is made to God, simpl}’- ; an oath is also made to God, but it involves the interest of another. 3 1 . That being thedifference, do you understand Bailly as teaching that they are dispensed with under the same circumstances?— The Church of Rome claims the power of dispensing with oaths — even promissory oaths — to another, when the good of the Church of Rome requires it. 32. Does the Church dispense with oaths and vows under the same circumstances ? — I really do not understand the question distiuctW. I think the answer given is clear on the subject. 33. The question is, whether or not the Church, as laid down by Bailly, claims the power of dispensing A«th oaths under the same circumstances in which it claims the power of dispensing with vows ; or, in other words, whether the circumstances under which it dispenses with vows are different from those under which it dispenses with oaths? — There are cases in which it does dispense with oaths, even promissory oaths. 34. The question is, whether it dispenses with oaths and vows under the same circum- stances ? — That is, a person taking an oath and a vow at the same time. 35. No ; a person taking an oath at one time, and taking a vow at another time, would the Church claim the power of dispensing with each under the same circumstances? — Yes, if the circumstances were alike : that is my impression. 36. Do you recollect whether or not you were taught at Maynooth that an oath, involving the right of a third party, could not be dispensed with ? — There are exceptions to that. 37. Were you taught that, as a general rule ? — It is contained in the class books. 38. As I understand you, you now state that the passage, quoted from page 145, applies to vows, and not to oaths? — Yes. “ There exists in the Church a power of dispensing in * Of the hook c.'illed “ The Church of Eome.” 2 t 2 Glh JamKinj, IS54. Rev. Win. .J. Rurkc. Proofs required of statenieiit that same causes of dispensation aj)i)ly to oatlis as well as vows. Former answer re- peated. Because dispensing power exists as to both, it must, of ne- cessity, be exercised as to both, under the same circumstances. Difference between oaths and vows. Whether oath involv- ing the right of a third party can be dispensed with. Effect of pontifical laws. 324 MAYXOOXn COADIISSIOX. (i//i Jaivturij, 1854. Hev. Wm. J. Burke. And edicts. Respecting faith and morals. 'I'enth article of creed of Pope Bills IV. Tiiird canon of fourth Council of Lateran. This doctrine not directly tauglit at Maynootli, but wit- ness bound to it by oath at induction. Had not then read the canon in question. oatlbs ,'iml vows.” I find in Liguori, -wliicli is a book of reference in Mavnootb, vol. i., De Legibas, 109, ‘‘ The J’ontifical laws oblige tlie faithful, though only ])roniulgated at Home.” I give this quotation to show that the decrees of the popes arc hindino- ou the faithful. _ “ 39. Is that part of a class-hook, or is it taught at Maynootli ?— It is a hook of reference in Maynootli. 40. Is it referred to in Bailly ? — Xo ; it is referred to in class. Then he says that the edicts of the Pope, if written in Italian, only extend to Italy; hut if written in the Latin language, they are hindiiig on the universal Church, unless the bishops reclaim against them. As the bishops have their procurators or agents in Rome, they, through them, should know of them. 4 1. This is a passage from Liguori’s hook ? — Yes. 42. On what occasion is that hook referred to at IMaynooth ; in what ]iart of the course ? — “ l)e Legihus.” 43. When is it referred to ? — It is a hook of reference in reading De Legihus. 44. In what part of your course did you refer to it, or did you refer to it in any part of your course? — 1 cannot exactly bring to mind the particular parts of Liguori’s works I referred to during my theological course ; hut Liguori’s works are looked on as stand- ard works of high authority in ^Maynootli, and are frequently referred to as such. 45. Does it refer to the Pope's decrees about faith or morals, or what is he treating of in that passage ? — I quote from memory ; I think both faith and morals. 40. Do you mean to say that Liguori maintains that the Pope’s decrees respecting faith and morals are binding on all Catholics? — Yes, certainly. 47. You are not aware whether that passage is referred to in the class-hook? — It is not referred to in the class-hook, as it was published many years subsequent to it. Liguori is referred to in class, and (juoted as a standard authority, as an authority very much respected at Maynootli. I now come to the oath taken on induction. 48. Is that the oath taken at ilaynooth ? — No ; hut subsequently to that.* 49. Is it the oath taken at ordination? — No ; hut the oath taken when I was inducted as parish priest. 50. Have the goodness to state what the oath is to which you refer? — The Creed of Pope Pius IVk The tenth article of this creed is — I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Pioman Church, for the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ. 1 likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined and declared by the sacred canons and general councils, and particularly by the holy Council of 'I’rciit. And I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heretics which the Church has condemned, rejected, and anathematized.” Here I swear that I will “receive all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and general councils, and particularly of the Council of Trent.” I find at the 14th Session, the Gth canon, that the Council of Lateran was declared by the holy Council of Trent to he a general council, and reckons all its decisions to he the voice of the Church. In the 4th Lateran Council, the 3rd canon, it is thus written, (the hook is, “ A Survey of the Modern State of the Church of Rome, with additional observations on the doctrine of the Pope’s supremacy;” by William Hales, 1788) “Per Lateranense Concilium Ecclesia statuit,” and as such it is binding on all who subscribe to the creed of Pope Ifius VI. 51. Have the goodness to recite the canons you wish to refer the Commissioners to ? — I take the third canon : “ We excommunicate” (“ Church of Rome,” 74) “ and anathematize every heresy which exalteth itself against this holy, orthodox, and Catholic faith, which we have set forth above, condemning all heretics, by whatsoever names they may he called, having, indeed, their fiices turned different ways, hut their tails hound together ; for, from their folly, they agree in tlie same thing,” &c. 52. How do you apply these canons ? — To show that a power is claimed by the Church of Rome of absolving from oaths of allegiance. Now 1 go to the twelfth century ; “ But if any teni[)oral power, being required and admonished by the Church, shall have neglected to ])urge his territory from heretical corruption, let him he hound by the metropolitan and the other comprovincial hishoj)s with the chain of excommunication ; and if he shall contenqituously refuse to make satisfaction within a year, let this he signified to the Chief Pontiff, that, from that time forth, ho may declare his subjects free from their allegiance to him, and expose his territory to he seized by Catholics, who may, without any contradiction, having exterminated the heretics, take possession of it, and preserve it in the jmrity of faith, saving the right of the Chief Lord, provided only that on this he himself shall not present any obstacle, nor impose any impediment. The same law, nevertheless, being observed as to those who have not any Chief Lord.” 53. In your time was that doctrine, as laid down in that Council of Lateran, taught at Maynootli ?— Not directly ; hut I was hound to it by the oath taken by me when I was inducted as parish priest. 54. Had you ever read that Council of Lateran at the time you took the oath? — No. 55. Have you ever read it since? — Yes, I have. 56. When did you read it first ? — I cannot say exactly when I read it. 57. Was it after you iiad left the Church of Rome? — No, I read it before I left the Church of Rome. 58. Was this Lateran Council made the subject of instruction at Maynootli ? — It was, as well as the other councils. * Note b'j IFilncss. — The oath is aiso taken by all the professors of Maynooth, prior to their being installed in office. 3IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 325 50. Did you umlerstand tliat this Latcraii Council was admitted at Maynoolh, and its aiitliority recognized ? — Yes. GO. Tliis j)art of if? — I cannot say this exactly, hut tlie whole council ; when the council is referred to, it is supposed that the council is recognized. 61. Were you taught at Maynootli tliat, if a general council deals with matters not connected with faith and morals, its decrees are not binding ? — 1 was taught there that the decree of a general council was binding. G2. If it were a decree not aifecting fliith or morals ? — Affecting both. G3. Hut if it e.xtended to other points beyond laith and morals, was it held to bo binding? — Yes, certainly, as a decree of the council. G4. Although the decrees did not affect faith or morals still they were binding? — Every decree of a Council was binding, whatever it was. 65. Whether it did or did not affect faith or morals? — Yes. 66. Did you ever hear that several of the decrees of the Council of Trent, respecting discipline, were not received in many countries, and were not binding ? — I never did. 67. Did you not know that the decrees of the Council of Trent, with respect to marriage, were not received in many dioceses in Ireland ? — Yes, in three. The decrees res]>ecting discipline in marriage were not received in three dioceses in Ireland, because the bishops or their proctors reclaimed against the discipline in marriage. 68. Does not that prove that the decrees of the Council on every subject are not binding as a matter of course? — In the year 1829 the discipline was received in Dublin and two other dioceses. 69. Have you a distinct recollection now, speaking from your own knowledge, that this canon was made the subject of lecture whilst you were in Maynooth College ? — I have not; but I know that the Council of Lateran was received — the matter Avas not spoken of — that council more than any other council beyond where reference was made to it in the class-books. 70. Was there any teaching at IMaynooth upon that portion of the council which is contained in the paragraph which you have (pioted ? — 1 have no recollection at present. 71. Do you recollect tbe treatise “ De Ecclesia,” in which the whole question is discussed as to the power of the Pope over temporal sovereigns? — Yes. 72. You recollect probably that it occupies no inconsiderable portion of the volume? — Yes. 73. Do you remember in the course of that discussion that this very question of the authority of the third canon of the Lateran Council, as bearing upon this subject, is fully discussed, and its authority as bearing upon it, distinctly denied ? — I recollect that that was the subject of the year, but what the conclusion was I really cannot, at present, say ; but I Avould be inclined to say that though that is the teaching of the class-book in Maynooth, a different impression was left on my mind. 74. The effect of the education avluch you received at Maynooth, you have stated, was to make you from a loyal subject to a disloyal one ? — Decidedly, from what I witnessed, and saav and heard, particularly in 1829, struck me very forcibly, as well as previous. 75. Have you concluded your statement of the reasons that led you to those conclusions? — Yes. 76. As I understand, they consisted of the doctrine relating to excommunication and interdict, and the doctrine respecting oaths to which you have already referred? — Yes. 77. Was there any thing else? — There was: what I had seen in the College, and what I had Avitnessed in the conduct of the students. 78. And the effect of the decree of Lateran ? — Yes; as being received and approved by tbe Council of Trent ; and my induction oath bound me to receive same. 79. With respect to the excommunication and interdict do you know the difference between them? — A person may be excommunicated without being laid under interdict. 80. Does interdict apply to persons or to place ?— It applies to both, 81. W'hatisit? — In lloman Catholic countries interdict applies to place, and also to persons — to a place, inasmuch as the sacraments are not administered, and a person laid under interdict is denied the use of fire and AAmter. 82. Does interdict apply to all the inhabitants of a country Avhether they are or are not in communion Avith the Church of Home ? — That Avas my impression. 83. Then AA'hat do you understand hy excommunication? — A person cut off from the sacraments of the Church of Home, and denied Christian burial. 84. Are you aAvare that there is no excommunication in the Homan CatlioUc Church of the Protestants of these countries ? — No. 85. You are not aAvare of that ? — No. I Avas aAvare of the very contrary. 86. You think that Protestants lie under excommunication in the Homan Catholic Church ? — Yes, under major excommunication. 87. And as such excluded from Homan Catholic prayers? — Yes, that is my impression and belief. 88. Y’^ou are under the impression that her Majesty lies under excommunication, and as such is excluded from Homan Catholic prayers? — Y"es. 89. You stated that one of the prayer-books AA’hich you used at Maynooth was the Vade Mecum, and another Avas the Key of Heaven? — Y"es. 90. You stated, did you not, that at the time you were using those prayer-books at Maynooth you were under the impression that it was not laAvful to pray for the King, he being under excommunication? — Yes. 91. Will you be kind enough to look at this copy of the Vade Mecum {the same being handed to the witness] which was published in 1840, and look at the passage in the Glh January, 1S64. Rca'. Win. J. Burke. Whether decrees of councils not affecting faith or inor.als bind- ing. Instance in case of marriage decrees of Council of Trent. IVitness referred to denial of authority of that canon in Dcla- hogue. Summary of reasons ■which led to witness’s disloyalty. AVitness not aware that there is no ex- communication of Protestants in these countries. But is under the im- pression that her Majesty lies under excommunication, and as such is excluded fromEoman Catholic prayers. Referred to Roman Catholic prayer hook. 326 MATNOOTH COMMISSION. Gilt Jamiurii 1854. 3o. Kcv. Win. J. Burke. Keferrod to I’rayer before Mass. Witness never read or heard of tliut prayer. Never heard of the practice of readinfj these prayers before Mass. t- prayer at the beginning of the canon of the mass, in which the person reading it purports to offer wliat the lioinan Catholics conceive to be the sacrifice of the mass for certain purposes there mentioned, and in which are these words — “ To have mercy on thy servants N.N., (naming) our chief hisliop, N., our prolate, N., our king, and all that truly fear thee?” — This was published in the year 1840. 92. It was published in 1840. Can you state whether or not the Vade Mecum which you used at Maynooth contained that prayer? — 1 do not recollect that it did. The impression on my mind is, that it did not. 93. Will you look at this copy of the Key of Heaven, [the same being handed to the witness], also published In 1840, in which the first prayer to be read by the people during what is called the canon of tlic mass contains these words — “ l\Iost merciful Father, who hast given us thy only Son to be our daily sacrifice, incline thine ear to our ]>rayers, and favour our desires ; protect, unite, and govern thy whole Church throughout the wmrld ; pour forth thy blessing on his present Holiness, that prelate Avho has a particular charge over us, our Queen, and all true professors of the Catholic faitli.” Are you able to say whether that prayer w'as contained in the copy of the Vade Mecum wdiich you used at Maynooth ? — No. So far as my memory serves, I am able to bear in mind that there was no prayer oft’ered in any that 1 read in l\Iaynooth, save and except the Missal. I have a most distinct recollection that there Avas none that I ever -read in IMaynooth save and except the Missal, which was printed from a Missal published on the Continent, where the crowned head was a llomanist, and the blank in the JMissal was left for the name of the king or queen. 94. Do you remember or not that this prayer was contained in the Key of Heaven which you used at Maynooth ? — I am certain that it was not. 95. Will you be good enough to look at the prayer which comes after the acts of faith, hope, and charity, and which is usually repeated before mass, headed, “ A prayer to be said before mass,” and beginning with the words, “ Oh, merciful Father, who didst so love the world as to give up for our redenq^tion thy beloved Son,” &c., calling your attention to this particular passage, “We offer it for the propagation of the Catholic faith, for our most holy father the Pope, for our archbishop (or bishop), and for all the pastors and clergy of thy holy Church, that they may direct the faitlfful in the -way of salvation ; for the Queen, for her Viceroy, and all that are in high station ; that we may lead quiet and holy lives ; for peace and good will among all states and people ; for the necessities of mankind, and particularly for the congregation here present ; to obtain all blessings we stand in need of in this life, everlasting happiness in the next, and eternal rest to the faithful departed.” Was this prayer contained in the copy of the Vade Mecum which you used at Maynooth ? — I never read it, and I never heard it. 96. Are you able to say whether or not it was contained in the co])y of the Key of Heaven which you had at Maynooth ? — That prayer I never heard or read in any cojjy or prayer-book I ever read. When the priest commences Mass, those having such a prayer- book read the English of the I.atin the priest reads, and thus goes along with the priest in the different parts ; and if the priest does not read it, they cannot be brought back to it, 97. ily question was with respect to the contents of the Key of Heaven which you used at ^laynooth. Was that prayer contained in that book ? — I never read it in it; I never knew it in it. To the best of my recollection, it was not. I never read it before this day, nor did I know it was ever read in any part of Ireland. 98. Will you bo kind enough to look at this card.* I believe you are aware that it con- tains, substantially, a copy of the Acts, and a copy of that preliminary prayer, and that in this are the words, “ For the Queen, and all who are in high station, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life.” Did you ever see a card or a table containing that prayer? — Never, befoi'e 1 saw it in the hands of the Commissioners yesterday. 99. Are you aware that it has been for many years the practice in the Koman Catholic chapels in Dublin for the priest to read those Acts and that prayer, copied on that table, before the celebration of mass on Sundays?— No. 100. Are you aware that he does so in the vestments in which he celebrates the service, and that his practice is, after reading out that jii^ayer to the congregation assembled, immediately to proceed, in the same vestments, to the celebration of the mass? — No. It surprised me much when it was asserted yesterday. I never knew it at any place I have ever been in. I was an academical year a priest in Waterford. I celebrated mass, and heard it frequently in the chapels of Waterford, and I never knew, either in Waterford, in Limerick, or in any part of the counties of Clare or Galway, any prayer to have been offered up before mass, save and except the acts of faith, contrition, hope, and charity; and it surjirised me very much when I heard what was stated yesterday. That was the first time I ever heard it mentioned. 101. This particular prayer applies to the archbishopric of Dublin, and the question is whether you are aware that the practice in the archdiocese, and j)articularly in the city of Dublin, is that the priest, in the vestments in which he celebrates mass, before mass, reads that for the congregation assembled for the purpose of attending mass ? — I never heard or knew that any such thing was ever done. It was never read in Maynooth, which is in the archdiocese of Dublin. 102. Supposing it to be established, that for a period of upwards of forty years, since the time that Archbishop Troy was the Roman Catholic archbishop officiating in Dublin, it has been the constant practice for the priest, in his vestments, to read that for the congregation before the celebration of mass, would you still retain the opinion that it was * A card containing the Acts of Faith, Uope, and Charity, and Preliminary Prayer appointed to be read before Mass. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 327 Dot consistent with Catholic usa^o, or Catholic discipline, or Catholic doctrine, to pray Gth January, 18S4. for the Queen ? — 1 certainly would. 103. Although that was the constant practice, would you still he of opinion that it was Wni J Burke against Catholic usage or discipline or doctrine to ]>ray for her Majesty, though not a Koman Catholic ? — From what has been taught at Maynooth, and the impression on my mind, arising from what I have witnessed, and what 1 know of it, I come to the decided conclusion that it is contrary to what I learned, saw, and was impressed on my mind, that a priest can pray for a heretic labouring under major e.xcommuuication, whoso kingdom is under interdict. 104. Does that impression remain unaltered after the learning that the practice in the archdiocese of Dublin, is, and has been so to pray ? — I have been in Dublin and heard mass, and I never heard that form of prayer. * 105. Supposing that to have been the practice, does that atfect in any manner the impres- sion Avhich still exists on your mind, that a Roman Catholic priest is not permitted by his Church, or that it is against the usage and discipline or doctrine of his Church to pray for the Queen, being a Protestant? — No; it does not — certainly not. 100. You labour under an impression that the kingdom is now lying under an inter- dict, and that the Sovereign and the other Protestants of this country lie ipso facto under major excommunication ?— Yes. 107. Are the Commissioners right in supposing that you stated in a previous part of your Witness’s opinion evidence, that it was inculcated by a class-book at Maynooth, that the sacrifice of the Mass ought not to be otfered for heretics ? — Yes, that is the impression on my mind, and I read the passage. 108. AVill you refer to Bailly in the Tract “ Dc Eucharistiaf in the Treatise “De Sacra- Ecferred to passage mentis,” and in the chapter “ De Eucharistia,” the second proposition “ Misste Sacrificium pro gentilibus, hsercticis, schismaticis, excommunicatis, uno verbo, pro omnibus omnino viventibus absolute offerri potest.” AYere you aware when you were at Maynooth that that formed a portion of what was inculcated by the class-book ? — I did not read “ De Eucha- ristia!’ in Maynooth. 109. Did you come to that passage at all ? — I did not read the Treatise in Maynooth. 1 1 0. Have you read it since ? — I have no distinct recollection; 1 have no recollection of having seen it before to-day, but I know that the practice is the contrary. I know that I read “ De Eucharistia” (whether I read that part 1 cannot say) in AA'’aterford. 111. Do you perceive that that passage is reasoned on, and proofs are given to establish that proposition? — Yes. 1 12. AVill you turn to page 390 of the Tract De Eucharistia” by Delahogue: are you aware that that was a class-book in the College, and that it was used in the College ? — Yes. 113. Turn to this passage “ Attenta ipsa rei natura, illicitum non est sacrificium otferre pro In Delahogue. haereticis, schismaticis publice excommunicatis ac denunciatis, Judseis, et infidelibus vivis.” AVere you aware that that was inculcated at Maynooth? — No, I did not read the “ Eucha- ristia” in Maynooth. 114. Are you now aware that that proposition is contained in that class-book? — Yes; when I now read it. 115. And that it is the subject of proofs comprising about six pages ?— -Yes ; but I did not read the “ Eucharistia” in Alaynooth. IIG. Did you read it afterwards? — Yes. 117. AVhen did yoii read it ?— I read it in AA'’aterford. 118. AA^hat class-book was it? — It was Delahogue’s. 119. Did you read it at AVaterford? — I do not think I did. 120. Did you read any Treatise on the Eucharist? — Yes, I did, but I did not finish it. 121. Did you read a Treatise on the Eucharist at any time ?— Yes. 122. Did you read that Treatise on the Eucharist at any time? — I think I did. 123. Have you any doubt, that while you were a priest you either read it before or after ordination? — 1 know that it formed the subject of conference, 124. Have you any doubt that you became acquainted with it in the course of your reading, either when a priest or a student? — I think I did. 125. Having regard to that passage and what it inculcates, and having regard to the Notwithstanding, practice, if it be so, of the service in the archdiocese of Dublin, are you still of opinion that according to the tenets or discipline of the Roman Catholic Church, it is unlawful to pray opinion, for the Queen, not being a Roman Catholic? — I am. 126. Did you ever receive any teaching in opposition to the proposition contained in that book, and the extract that has been given to you ? — I have given the Commissioners before the proofs. 127. Did you ever receive any teaching in opposition to that proposition in any lecture, Whether witness either at Maynooth, or at AVaterford, or elsewhere, in the Roman Catholic Church, impugn- tJad^g^tcTthrOTn- ing the proposition there laid down by Delahogue ? — AA’’hen I am asked if I received any trary of these teachings, 1 cannot say that from this person or that person I received them. passages. 1 28. Did you receive from any professor, from any lecturer, or from any teacher, under whose care you studied, or with whom you communicated, any instruction inconsistent with that doctrine ? — I cannot say that I received from this man or from that man that instruc- tion, but I can say distinctly that from the general teachings in Maynooth the contrary was the fact. 129. "Vou inferred from what you have already stated to the Commissioners that the doc- trine laid down by Delahogue was falsified by the instruction given at Maynooth? — Decidedly. 130. You did not read in Maynooth the part which treated upon that subject ? — No. 328 MAYNOOTII COMMISSIOX. 6th January, 1854. 3 ^ Kev. Wm. J. Burke Contrary impression produced on ■witness’s mind. » Did not communicate that impression to any of his instructors. Nor apply to the professors to recon- cile the difference. Does not recollect professor stating his difference of opinion from the class-book. As to frequency of difference between professor and class- book. 131. Did then receive any instruction good or bad upon the subject? — I did, in Waterford. 132. And in AVaterford did you receive any instruction inconsistent tvitli tliat statement ? — I cannot exactly say, as 1 told the Connnissioners before, -wbetber it was in AVaterford or in Maynootb, or wbetber it was oral, or whether it wa.s from the treatises ; but the impression distinctly on my mind was, that it was contrary to the teachings and instructions 1 received; and really 1 was never more surprised than when it was stated yesterday that such was the doctrine. 133. Do you say, that at AA'aterford, you studied the subject of the Eucharist, and that at AAAterford you studied it in reference to that cla.ss-book of Delabogue ?_Yes. The necessity of the diocese required the bishop to call me out at Easter, and before the year was ended. 134. You stated, did you not, that you did go tiirougli a ]>ortion of the Eucharist at AAAterford or at Alaynooth. AAdiensoevcr you were called out, did you anywhere learn the doctrine of the Eucharist ? — I did. 135. Did you learn it from a class-book? — Yes. 136. AVas that class-book Delabogue? — Yes. 137. Did you learn it in AVaterford or in Maynootb ? — In AAhiterford. 138. At the time wiien you learned that doctrine in AA^aterford, and used the class-book which contains that proposition, had you then those impressions derived from the circum- stances which you have laid l)efore the Commissioners, that led you to impugn the doctrine laid down l)y Delabogue ? — The impression on my mind, with regard to that proposition is, that the very contrary was the impression then, as it is still, on my mind. 139 Having that impression on your mind after you left iNIaynooth, and while you were studying that doctrine of the Eucharist, did you communicate that impression to any of your instructors with a view to have your ditiiculties removed? — Xo ; because 1 was so firmly convinced of that teaching that no doubt existed upon it. 140. Did you consider that that was the teaching of the Church, and that the class-book was in opposition to it ? — The impression on my mind was tliat that was tlie teaching of the Church, and I received it as such. 141. You received it in opposition to what was laid down in the class-book ? — The class- book is not always followed. 142. AVhen you had that class-book before you, did you apply to any of the teachers who w’ere instructing you to point out how far that class-book could be reconciled with the impressions that you derived from the matters you have laid before the Commissioners ?— It appears to me that the professor must have taken a dillerent viev/, otherwise if he coincided with the class-book, with the previous impressions on luy own mind, it must have made an impression on me. 143. Did you apply to the professor to reconcile the difference between the class-book and the impres.sions that you had received ? — 1 did not ; but the Commissioners will allow me to explain that the professor took up a proposition, and he explained it before it was read in class ; and by this means \we had his views of it without ^jutting the question. 144. Do you believe that his views were at variance with the text-book upon that point ? — Certainly ; from the impression on my mind I came to the conclusion that they were. 1 45. Did you then, when you were at AAhiterford, come to the conclusion that the teacher dif- fered from the class-book? — It was evident — the impression on my mind continued all along. 146. Have you any recollection of the divergence of opinion between the class-book and the professor, so that the professor said, “ In this case 1 do not agree with the class-book” ? — Xo ; I have no recollection of that. 147. You have no recollection of the professor differing from the class-book. Have you any recollection of seeking to have your own impressions reconciled with what the class- book contained ? — Xo ; but the professor took and explained, and where the professor's instructions differed from the class-book we had then his opinion with regard to it — either that or he gave the opinion of other doctors. Such was the case in Maynooth, owing to the disruption which took place betw’een my class and the professor, that he was very cautious in giving his owm opinion, but he gave the opinions of others. 148. In the progress of your studies, did it not occur to you, as very extraordinary, that v’ou should have formed an impression directly contrary to the positive teaching of the class-book ? — It must necessarily follow that it was so — it -was likely that it was. 149. Did it not appear to you extraordinary that what was inculcated in the various books from which you drew those conclusions was directly contradicted by the class-book ? — Xo ; it did not appear very extraordinary, for this reason, that St, Thomas Aquinas was as high an authority as Delahogue any day. He took one view and the class-book took another, and we wmre not bound by the class-book. 150. AA'as it a matter of frequent occurrence that the class-book and the professor difiered in their statement of questions of controversy ? — The professor gave the opinions of many theologians, but was very tenacious of his own, owing to the bad feeling that existed between the class and him — for the moment he gave his opinion they would take up a contrary opinion in order to embarrass him. 151. The question was, whether it was a matter of frequent occurrence that the professor expressed a difference of opinion upon matters of controversy from the class-book ? — AVhen he gave an opinion he gave the opinion of this man or that, and he laid a particular emphasis on the opinion he maintained. He was rather tenacious of giving his own opinion, for the reason already stated. 152. He did not express his own opinion as at variance with the text-book, but he gave MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 329 other opinions not in the text-hook, without impressing cither the one or the other upon you, but which were at variance ? — Yes. 153. Did he do that with regard to the doctrine laid down as to offering the sacrifice of the mass for heretics ? — I really can not say as to that doctrine moi'e than another, but X have given the Commissioners my own im])ressions and feelings on the subject. 154. Your impression is that the oral teaching of the professor did not accord with tho teaching of tho class-book ? — As to this proposition “ de Eucharistia” it did not. 155. Your impression is that the professor taught what was inconsistent with tho class- book as to that particular dogma ? — Yes, by giving and referring to other authorities. 156. Did he teach that what was in that class-book was not to bo received as doctrine by the students? — I cannot say upon this particular question that he did or did not teach that. 157. Upon that particular question of the Xlucharist, did the professor, when lie was dealing with that subject, inculcate upon you, or teach you, or give you to understand that he entertained doctrines, and taught you doctrines inconsistent with what that class-book contained? — I think I might, with perfect safety, assert that he did. 158. What was his name ? — His name was O’Brien. He was an Ultramontane, educated in Home ; and from the Ultramontane doctrine, which is pubbely and avowedly taught in Rome, I come to the conclusion that he did. 159. Are you awai’e, wuth regard to what are called the Ultramontane doctrines, that the differences between the Galileans and the Ultramontanes do not involve anything respecting the Eucharist ? — Yes ; but there are such very strong feelings with regard to heretics entertained by the Ultramontanes, that they 'will carry those feelings into other matters. 160. Was the professor of whom you speak a professor of Waterford or of IVlaynooth ? — A professor of Waterford, 161. Where is he now? — I do not know. 162. You stated, did you not, that you did not learn the Eucharist at all at Maynooth? — Yes. 6th Janiuirtj, 1854. Rov. Will. J. Burke. Witness’s impression tliat professor taught (litterently from elass-buok. Professor being an Ultramontane, ■witness comes to that conclusion. 163. This is a pocket Missal, which, you observe, w-as published in 1832, by Keating and Brown, in London \]iandin(j the same to the witness^. Tell me whether or not this is the passage to wdiich you referred yesterday : “ After solemn Mass, the following Vivat Rex and prayer are sung for the King — ‘ 0 Lord, save William our King, and hear us in the day -when we shall call upon thee. Glory, &c. Let us pray. We beseech thee, 0 Almighty God, that thy servant William our King, who through thy mercy hath undertaken the government of these realms, may also receive an increase of all virtues, wherewith being adorned, he may avoid the enormity of sin, and being rendered acceptable in thy sight, may come at length to thee, -who art the way, tlie truth, and the life, through Christ our Lord.’ ” Was that prayer contained in any of the missals that you read at Maynooth ? — No ; not in my recollection, 164. Beginning, “ Domine salvum fac Regem nostrum Gulielmum?” — No. 165. ^Vas this prayer contained in any^ of the prayer-books that you used prior to the last Gospel. A'ou are aware that it was a part of the Mass prior to tlie benediction ? — No. I am aware that the Mass commences at the Canon of the Mass, and that neither the Epistle nor the Gospel is any portion of the Mass. It concludes at “Ite missa est.” 166. Before “Ite missa est” in this book there is this pray^er, “Defend, also, 0 Lord, from all adversity, thy servant Gregory our Pope, N. our Bishop, William our King, and the royal issue, together Avith the people and array committed to his care ; grant peace in our days, and banish all wickedness from thy Church, through Jesus Christ our Lord. P. Dominus vobis cum. R. Et cum spiritu tuo. P. Ite missa est, vel Benedicamus Domino. R. Deo Gratias?”— Never a syllable of it. It is the first time in my life that I heard it. The only' thing wuth regard to a prayer for tlie King that I over saw in any Missal, English or Latin, was at the commencement of the Canon of the Mass. 167. In tlie commencement of the canon there occur these words, “ Te igitur, clemen- tissime Pater, per Jesum Christum Filium tuum Dominum nostrum, supplices rogamus ac petimus, uti accepta habeas, et benedicas hme dona, liaic miiiiera, haec saiicta sacrificia illibata, imprimis qum tibi offerimus pro Ecclesia tua saveta Catholicii quam pacificare, custodire, aduiiare, et regere digneris toto orbe terrarum ; una cum faniulo tuo Papa nostro N., et Antistite nostro N., et omnibus orthodoxis atque Catholica* et apostolicm fidei cultoribus ?”— Yes. Here in the canon of the mass was a place left for the King; and from the teaching I received in Maynooth, from what I had seen and witnessed there, from the Missals being (both in and out of it) printed on the Continent, and up to the period of my being in Maynooth I do not think I had seen more than, say, perhaps, two or three (it might be a great deal more, or it might be, perhaps, less) .Missals printed in Ireland, the others being printed on the Continent, where the kings were Roman Catholics. While I W'as a student in Maynooth I used to substitute here for “ the King,” “ Catholic Kings and when I was a priest I omitted altogether the name of the King. 168. Docs that apply to the prayer, “ Defend also, 0 Lord, from all adversity thy servant Geegory our Pope, N. our Bisho]), William our King, and the royal issue ;” or to this prayer, “We beseech thee, 0 Almighty God, that thy serA'ant William our King, who through thy mercy hath undertaken the government of these realms, may also receRe an increase of all virtues, Avherewith being adorned, he may avoid the enormity of sin, vanquish his enemies, and being rendered acceptable in thy sight, may come at length to thee, who art the way, the truth, and the life, through Christ our Lord?” — I never heard of that prayer before this day. 169. Supposing that to be printed in English by the authority of the heads of the Church, and used generally, would you stiU be of opinion that it was unlawful to pray for 2 u Reference to prayer in pocket missal. Not remembered by Avitness. Reference to ether prayers. Never heard of by' witness before. Commencement of canon. 330 MAYXOOTII COM.AIISSION. (^th January, 1854. ~SQ. Rev. 'Win. J. Burke. Witness’s loyalty on entering Maynooth. And astonishment at disloyalty witnessed there. Subsequently saw reason to consider oath of allegiance not binding. That practice of taking oath should he continued did not appear extraordinary to witness. Who was led to it gradually. Never inquired from Professor on the subject. Came to the above conclusion from passages about ex- communication, &c. His impression that it was done to throw dust in the eyes of Protestants. Never asked about it. Nor spoke to his fellow-students. Dr. Delahogue’s proposition as to temporal power. a monarch ■n'lto was a Protestant ? — I really tlo ; for this reason, that Romanism will accom- modate itself to every climate. 170. You went to Alaynooth a loyal man, did you not? — Yes. 171. Strongly so? — Yes, I could not he stronger, 1 72. A"ou entered about the month of ATarch, did you not ? — Ro, the month of September. 173. You went to take the oath in the October following? — A"es, the first time after the sessions were held. 174. A"ou stated, did you not, that you did not pronounce the oath? — No. I did pronounce it. 175. At the time you took the oath, did you still retain your loyalty ? — Yes ; I was very much astonished at the disloyalty I Avitnessed on all occasions in Maynooth. 170. ITow soon did your opinions respecting loyalty become shaken ? — I could not say exactly the time ; the process will go on in a man’s mind ; he at first sees a thing, and he is shocked at it ; hut to say that it was at such or such a period of time he canilot with certainty assert. 177. A"ou were aware of the nature of the oath that you took? — I was. 178. And you sulisequently, while at Afaynooth, sa5v reason to consider that that oath was not binding? — A"es. 179. Did you ever communicate with any of your instructors or superiors as to the effect of that impression upon your mind on the oath which you had so solemnly taken ? — No. 180. A"ou were aware that the oath was constantly taken bj' some, at least, of the students in the October of every year ? — The eldest Dean told us that the Statutes required each student to take the oath on entering. 181. A^ou Avere aware that that practice continued from year to year ? — Y’es, 182. IloAV long were you in the junior house ? — One year. 183. AA^ere you not aAvare, as a matter of fact, that the jiractice was going on of taking the oath ? — I heard so. 184. Did it not occur to you as very extraordinary that that annual ceremony of taking the oath should be observed in a seminary in Avhich it Avas inculcated that the oath was not binding ? — AA'heii I became acquainted AA'ith the teachings in Alaynooth, it did not appear to me at all extraordinary. 185. Did it not appear to you to he very great hypocrisy on the part of those who were conducting the establishment, to take the students to have an oath administered to them, which they were instructing the same students Avas not binding? — The idea had not at the time occurred to me, inasmuch as the matter and the process of the change of mind went on gradually, link by link ; and Avhen I had come up to that period, I then had a good knowledge of the teachings of Alaynooth ; and what a person would be at once shocked at and Avould he repulsed from, if he is brought on, step by step, the tiling does not appear to be so revolting. 18G. Did it not appear to you at an}" time extraordinary that that course, which was certainly one of hypocrisy, was continued from year to year ? — In the year 1 829, on the celebration of Emancipation, it appeared then most extraordinary to me, when the disloyal song was cheered and encored that there Avas not even so much as one to stand up and say, “ I disapprove of that song.” 187. Did it not occur to you as desirable to inquire from the Professor whether the impressions you derived from those various passages Avhich you have quoted, Avere or were not erroneous? — 1 know that I never inquired. 188. Are the Commissioners to understand that you were never expressly taught those opinions Avhich you inferred from the passages which you have cited ? — Those passages in the class-book were read about major excommunication, and as to the fact about the country being laid under interdict — I came to that conclusion; and judging by the conduct of all I was not singular in my conclusion. 189. A'ou Avere never taught that the oath of allegiance was not binding ? — That was a necessary consequence. 190. It did not occur to you that it was desirable to see whether you were mistaken in supposing that the oath Avas not binding Avhich the superiors required the students to take? — Aly impression AA'as, that the matter was done to throAv dust in the eyes of Protestants. 191. A"ou did not ask whether it was otherwise? — No, I never asked about it; I was firmly convinced of it. 192. Did you ever speak to any of your felloAV-students upon that subject ? — No ; but I had heard many of them speak about it before they took it. They said that they would not take it. 193. A’^ou were asked whether, after you receiAmd those impressions, you stated that it was a strange thing that an oath should be taken, Avhich, according to the teaching at Alaynooth, was not binding ? — I have no recollection that I did. 194. A"our impression is, that the oath of allegiance was held very lightly by the students of your time? — A"es, decidedly; that is my impression. 195. Did you read the Avhole of the treatise “De Ecclesia,” in Alaynooth? — The entire of the treatise, as well as I recollect, was not read. The greater part of it Avas read. 196. In Avhat year was it read’? — In the second year. 197. The treatise “ De Ecclesia” you went through at Alaynooth, did you not? — Yes ; all that was read there. 198. There is this proposition, “ Christus Petro et ejus successoribus, aut Ecclesi® nuUam concessit potestatem directam vel indirectam in regum temporalia ; proindeque isti nun- quam auctoritate clavium, etiam indirecte deponi possunt aut eorum subditi a fide et obedientia illis debita eximi ac dispensari,” do you recollect that ? — A es, I do. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 331 199. Do you remember a portion of tlie ])roposition, in wliicli he ])roceecls, “riurimorum conciliorum generalium ilecreta, (pue banc potestatem Esclcsia) traditum fuisse suppouero dicuntur h:ec sigillatim expendemutj?” — No. 200. Or the chapter in wliich lie treats tlie objections to bis proposition founded upon certain general councils? — No. 201. Do you remember that amongst others, the very councils ivblcb you have cited to-day, were referred to by Delabogue, against tlie jiroposition Avbicb be establishes; and also arguments which be encounters in the course of that discussion. Do you remember at that time your attention being drawn to those arguments ? — I know as to this in general that my attention, and that of all the students, was jiarticularly drawn. Delabogue Avas Avell knoAV to be a Gallican, and the Ultramontane opinions Avere those that Avere generally inculcated in ^raynootli. 1 AA’as under the impression, that a promise Avas made, that the Ultramontane doctrines AA’Ould be taught on the foundation in 1794. Then this being tlie class-book, and the tendency being in tlie opposite Avay, I have a recollection about the tAvo SAVords being given ; and the opinion upon my mind, AA’betlier it was from the teachings of the I’rofessor, or Avhether it Avas from the opinions cited, Avas that the Pope had temjioral poAver over kings. 202. The question is, AA’hetlier during your course your attention AA'as at all directed to those portions of Delabogue, occupying a considerable space, in which he encounters the arguments derived from the assumption of poAA’er in General Councils? — Yes, Avhen 1 read it my attention Avas directed to that. 203. Was there anything in the instruction which you derived from the professor incon- sistent Avith Avhat Avas stated in Delabogue ? — The impression on my mind Avas, that the opinion formed Avas different from that laid doAvn by Delabogue. 204. The opinion expressed by the professor? — No, I do not say that. 205. Did, or did not, any jirofessor of l\Iaynooth inculcate, or express, or convey any opinions in treating upon that subject inconsistent Avith the arguments of Delabogue? — The only way in Avhich I can ansAver, is that the professor gave the opinions of others, and it left an impression on ni}' mind totally different from that contained in the class-book. 206. Who AA'as that professor? — Dr. OTIanlon. lie did not gh’e it as his OAvn opinion. 207. Did he convey to you at all that the Councils of Lateran Avere binding upon that point ? — The impression made on my mind in class Avas that they Avere binding. 208. Did he or not, convey that impression to you by Avhat he said? — I cannot saA' ; but it must have been in class that this opinion vras formed, and this impression Avas made on my mind. 209. I believe it is the case, that a good many of the passages which you recited in your eA'idence, some of Avhich Avere taken from “The Church of Home,” are not found in the Treatise of Bailly, though they are to be found, as you say, in books Avhich Avere refei’red to ? — Yes. 2 1 0. Had you those books in your possession, Avhile you Avere going on Avith your course? — I had access to the Library, where the reference books Avere. 211. Did you read those passages then ? — Some I did : not all ; I think I read the greater portion of them, 212. Have you read any of them since you Avere at Maynooth ? — Yes. 213. Where did you read them ? — When I was a priest, and in reading Cabassutius. 214. Was it from the book called the “ Church of Home,” that you obtained the quota- tions which you have cited to the Commissioners, or did you consult the books themselves before you Avere examined here? — Since I saw the tenor and tendency of the examination here, I have taken and read these, and, seeing the authorities, I referred to them. 215. Did you consult any of those books Avith a vieAV to this examination, or did you take the quotations altogether from “ The Church of Home? ’ — No; not altogether. 216. What j)ortion did you not take from “ The Church of Home?” — Such as the “ Ecclesia.” 217. Then the materials for your examination Avere comprised in Avhat you read in “The Church of Home,” and AA'hat you read in reference to the “ Ecclesia” that you have got here ? — Yes ; and also the Creed of Hope Pius the IV. 218. When you Avere at Maynooth, have you read any of those passages that are cited in “ The Church of Home,” as being contained in the books referred to by Bailly ? — Decidedly. 219. Where? — -In the College library. 220. When ? — When I Avas a theological student. 221. Since you left Maynooth have you read any of those passages, which you have cited to the Commissioners ? — It is very bard to distinguish wdiether I read them in the College library or at home. I have a copy of Cabassutius at home, 222. Does Cabassutius contain those jrassages ?— Some. I have books containing the Canons. I had, and have still, the theological class-books of Ma}'nooth, and those are“Z)(3 Ecclesia'’ and “ De Juramento" by Bailly and Delabogue ; and Avhen necessity requires I refer to them. 223. AVill you state AA’hether, Avith a view to your present examination, your chief materials consisted of the book called “ The Church of Home ?” — Not chiefly : say it generally consists. 224. The Avhole of Avhat you have stated to the Commissioners is comprised, is it not, in that book, AA'ith the exception of a single reference that you made ? — No. There Avas more that I was anxious to bring forAA’ard as to the time Henry II. of France was under excommunication. I referred to Liguori to show that a bull of a Pope was binding on all Komanists, Avhen published in Latin, unless reclaimed against by the bishops in person, or by their proctors; and I adduced the bull of Urban VHL, excommunicating Henry II. of 2 u 2 Gth Januunj, 1854. Kcv. Wm. J. Burke. And liis refutation of arguments from couueils. But Delahogue Avas a Gallican. And Ultramontane doctrines were incul- cated in Maynooth. Witness’s attention directed to these por- tions of Delahogue. But impression on his mind that they Avere not adopted. r>r. O’llanlon the professor. Sources of extracts read from “ Church of Home.” Originals, to Avhat extent read by Avitness. Materials for his present examination. 332 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. nth January, 1854. 3 ^ Rev. Wm. J. Burke. Reception of Council of Lateran. iVdministerinK of oatli of allegiance by witness in Galway a year after his ordination. Thought it binding then. Was not then di.s- loyal, owing to Ids father’s influence. Afterwards reverted to Ins former opinion. In Clare. Cause of the change. France, and absolving all his subjects from their allegiance, as an instance of such being binding, with other matters not contained in “ The Church of Rome.” ' 225. Are you aware that it is held by Irish Roman Catholic authorities that in regard to I the third canon of the fourth Lateran Council, it has never been received in any country ' unless where the temporal authority adopted it ? — The fourteenth session, in the sixth I canon, of the Council of Trent has received the Council of Lateran. “Per Lateranense ' concilium ecclesia statuit.” i i 226. Therefore you hold that the other assertion is untenable? — I do. I have received ! and sworn to the creed of Pope Pius IV. when being inducted parish priest. 227. Of course, with respect to absolution from oaths, you consider that you must he absolved from your oath on that occasion? — The way I reconcile that is, that when I did ' it, I did it in ignorance. i 228. Was it after you took orders that you took that active part in the parish in Galway for the purpose of bringing the people to their allegiance ? — Yes. 229. IIow long after was it ? — About twelve months. 230. Did you cause many persons to take the oath of allegiance ? — I think above thirty. I 231. At that time were you under the impression that the oath of allegiance did not ' hind? — Yes; but I was immediately under the influence of my father. My father was I educated chiefly among Methodists. j I 232. Had you at that time an impression that the oath was not binding ? Of course, I ! I felt at that time that it was binding, otherwise I would not have asked them. ' 233. Then at that time you had not an impression that the oath was not binding ? — No. I had an impression that the oath was binding. 234. That was about two years after you left Maynooth, was it not ? — Yes. 235. Wore you disloyal at the time that you administered that oath to those thirty people? — No; and I attribute that to having come in contact with my father, and his asking me to act under the proclamation of the Marquis of Anglesca. 236. The impressions which you had when leaving Maynooth, and when you took orders, were those of disloyalty ? — Yes. j 237. And that the oath was not binding? — Yes. | 238. You changed that opinion within the first two years of your ministry? — Yes; and [ having got away from the influence of my father, I again fell back into my former opinion, ; 239. After those two years you altered your impression hack again, that the oath of allegiance w'as not binding, and you became disloyal? — Yes. j 240. Did your father take any step to remove the impressions which you had derived at ' Maynooth, and under which you took orders ? — He did everything by argument and by ; entreaty. j 241. Did he employ those arguments so as to convince your understanding ? — I think I ' was as much led by respect and love for my father. 242. Did that respect and love not only influence your conduct, but also your opinion ? i Yes; more or less, of course, we receive the opinions of those vre love. ' 243. Did you, in point of fact, alter your opinions in consequence of the intervention of your father ? — 1 did j)artially. l 244. What was it that afterwards led you to go hack again to the former impressions? — I went to Clare. Those were stirring times in (.flare. I mixed with the priests of i Clare ; and I was then carried along with the feelings and the associations of those that I ! met with, such as, for example. Priest JMurphy, the Rev. John Burke, noAv of Sixmilebridge ' notoriety, and Priest Sheehan. Those men, with others, took a very active and decided , part (and I took more or less) in those elections. | 245. Did you then study any of those matters which you have referred to to-day in your i evidence ? — I cannot say. | 246. It was rather the influence of contact, and example from others, that led you to I become disloyal subsequently ? — Together with the feelings impressed on my mind in ^ Maynooth, which got the ascendancy afterwards. 247. Those former impressions were revived by the contact and example of those whom you describe as your associates in Clare? — Yes. 248. Were those impressions entirely effaced during those two years that you were I under the influence of your father ? — No, I do not think they were, I do not speak from me- ^ I mory, hut speaking from reason, they could not he altogether effaced ; perhaps some remained. i 249. If they had not been eftaced wmuldyou have felt yourself at liberty, being a priest, to procure the administration of an oath which you thought not binding ? — When I say [ that the impressions might not have been altogether effaced, a person may do a thing ^ (particularly a priest), without coming to that thorough conviction by having them totally i | effaced from his mind — something may remain, at the same time, to induce others to take I j that oath.* ! 250. Were they not sufficiently effaced to satisfy you that the oath was binding which i - you called upon those people to take ? — Yes, they were to a certain extent. : ( 251. And at that time you considered that the oath of allegiance was binding upon their ' | conscience? — Yes, to a certain extent. j ] 252. And was binding upon your own ? — I cannot say that the matter entered into my ! \ mind. j * Note subsequently added ly Witness On examining the motives that led me to induce others to take the oath, I was partly led by love and respect for my father, and knowing that the fact of their taking the oath of : allegiance would, in some measure, restrain them from any further agrarian disturbance, and might be service- able to them in mitigating the penalty due to the outraged laws of the realm. | ( MI^sUTES OF EVIDENCE. 333 253. Would you have administered the oath to others unless you had considered it to be as binding upon your own conscience as you intended it to be upon tlieirs? The conclusion is, that I must necessarily, from the fact, have considered, though I might not have reasoned, in my own mind, that it was binding. 254. Upon every body who took it ? — Yes, at that time ; though I have no recollection of having reasoned with myself. I was induced by my father. 1 tliought that loyalty re(piired it, that their own preservation rc<[uired it. ^ly father was a great admirer of the English Constitution, and of the happiness of England under that Constitution, which protected life and ])roperty. lie admired it more than any other constitution in the W’orld. 255. Then the state of your ojnnion, at that time, was, that the oath was binding upon every body that took it ? — Yes ; that was the necessary conclusion that followed from the fiict of inducing others to take the oatli of allegiance. 256. In point of fact, that was your opinion ’? — I cannot say that I so reasoned at the time The fact is, I think, sufliciently evident that it was more or less impressed on my mind. 257. You stated, did you not, that you would not have induced others to take the oath uidess you had felt satisfied that it w\as binding upon them ? — The fact shows it was likely to be so, taking into account that I was influenced by my father, and his example. 258. Had the impressions which you derived at iMaynooth been removed in the interval between your leaving Maynooth and inducing so many people to take the oath ? — Of course they must have been, otherwise I never could have induced so many to take the oath. 259. AVere the parties, whom you have named, educated at Maynooth ? — They were. 260. And one was contem])orary with you, was he not? — Yes, the Kev. John Burke. I took the place of the Bev. John Sheehan at Maynooth. 261. Is there any thing else that occurs to you to state with regard to the teaching at Maynootli? — Not at present; I feel very unwell, and have laboured under the efl’ects of a very severe cold, caught the night I left home, and I am under medical treatment. \_The Witness withdrew.^ \_Note suhsequenthi added by TTi/ness. — During the agr.irian distui’bances in Clare anil Galway, the chapel door w.as closed against me for endeavouring to induce tlie people to return to i)eaccful habits, and my life was in danger. During this time, a neiglibonring parish priest, educated m ilaynooth, called on me, and abused me grossly. During his tirade of abuse he said, “ You impertinent puppy, how dare you interfere with the people in their endeavours to right themselves ? There is Jlr. , who farms four or five thousand acres of land in my parish ; .and though he is a Roman Catholic, he would not give me the grass of a horse. Had all the lands in liis possession been cut up into small holdings, 1 would derive four or five hundred a year from the land occupied by that worthless scoundrel.” This will e.vpl.ain the cause why i)riests never interfere in the sup- pression of agrarian disturbances in Ireland. I do not say they foment them.] Saturday, 7th January, 185-f. The Rev. Thomas Butter, d.d., examined. 1. Are you a native of Ireland ? — Y"es ; I am a native of the South of Ireland. 2. "Where were you educated ? — In Malta and Rome ; I went out to Malta very j’oung; I was educated in the Dominican University at Malta, in pliilosophju 8. W'here did you study theology ? — In Rome. 4. Not in IMalta? — No. 5. Where did you study theology in Rome ? — In the College of St. Thomas of Aquin. 0. Did other Irish students stud]' theology there ? — Y"es ; it is the first Theological College ill Rome. 7. Is it intended purely for the ecclesiastical state ? — Riirely. 8. WTiat are the numbers there ? — There are supposed to be two Dominicans from every kingdom in Europe, and likewise North and South America. There are sometimes more, and sometimes less. 9. About what number of students were there studying theology? — I think wm w'ere, in the Divinity Class, at one time, thirty or thirty-two. 10. Are the Commissioners to understand that it is a College of the Dominicans? — YTs; it is called the College of St. Thomas of Aquin. 11. What number of teachers were there for the training of this number of pupils? — Five teachers, and one of those was supposed to be the Divmity Professor in the Roman University. 12. Do any of the students in that College take degrees in the University of Rome ? — They take degrees in the College itself. 13. Did you complete your education in that College ? — Y'es ; and I took orders in Rome at the same time. Then I was sent by the Propaganda to be Missionaiy to the British Roman Catholic troops and civilians in Malta, and likewise I was sent by the Dominicans to be a Professor of Philosophy in the Dominican University there. 14. Is the College of St. Thomas in which you were educated connected with the Prop- aganda?— No, but the missionaries educated there, of course, are in a certain sense under the surveillance of the Propaganda. 15. W^as there an Irish College in Rome when you were educated there ? — Y’es. IG. Does it exist now ? — Y"es. 17. Are Irish students in theologj' educated there ? — Y'es. 18. Are any but Irish students educated there ? — None but Irishmen in the Irish College that I am aware of. 19. About what number were there in the Irish College ? — I believe, in my time, between fifty and sixty ; but then there w'ere other Irish students educated in other colleges, besides some in the Propaganda, and some in different colleges belonging to the regular orders. Gth January, 185-1. 36. Rev. Wm. J. Burke. tthJariuanj, 1854. 3 ^ Rev. T. Butler, d.d. Education of witness. College of St . Thomas in Rome. Irish College in Rome. 334 MAYXOOXn COMMISSION 7 th January, 1054. 3 ^ Kcv. T. Butler, d.d. Irisli students in the Propaganda. Collegio Eomano. Collegio della Propaganda. Witness’s residence at Malta. His studies in Rome. Difference of teach- ing at foreign Col- leges and that of Maynootli as to the sixth precept. Studies at Malta. Study of Scripture. 20. "When were }’ou in Home? — I was in Home in 1820, 1822, 1823, and 1824; and again in 1829, 1830, and 18al ; 1835, 1842, and 1843. 21. Mliat was the number of Irish students who in the earlier period were educated in the Propaganda ? — Not more than about ten or eleven. 22. And at the latter period, how many ?— I should think more. 23. Do j'ou liappen to know the number of Irish students who at any one period were receiving their education in Home, in the various establishments? — No ; I cannot tell. 24. Are tliose students pensioners generally speaking, or are they supported by funds connected with tlie colleges ? — They are supported by funds connected with the colleges, except one, and that is the Homan Seminary, any person who is there is supposed to have something of his own to support himself with. 25. Are Irish students educated now in the Collegio Homano? — I do not know. 20. Is the Collegio Homano purely ecclesiastical? — Yes. Y^ou must make a dilference between that and the Seminario Homano ; I am speaking of the Seminario Homano. 27. How do you distinguish between the two ? — The Seminario Homano is the diocesan seminary for Home, and the Collegio Homano is a public college. 28. Do you know that Irish students, or students destined for the Irish Mission are educated in the Collegio Homano ? — YTs ; they are all educated there. 29. I’hey are all tributary, are thej" not, to the great Collegio Homano? — Yes. 30. Heceivmg their education in common, lay and clerical ? — That depends upon what they are studying ; it may happen that the ecclesiastical students may study something that the lay students are studying ; as to divinity, the ecclesiastical students are by themselves. 31. Do the theological students, while studying theology, pursue any other studies in common vith laymen? — No. 32. Tliey are at that time entirely separated, are they ? — Yes. 33. The Collegio della Propaganda is distinct from tlie Collegio Homano ; is it not ? — Entu'ely distinct. 34. The Collegio della Propoganda is for the education of missionaries, is it not ?— Y’es ; the alumni of the Propaganda never attend the Collegio Homano except the regulars. 35. But all the pupils of the other colleges attend the Collegio Homano? — Yes. 3(5. Do the}’’ grant degrees in theology in the Collegio Homano? — Y"es. 37. Y"ou took orders in Home, did you not ? — Y"es. 38. And tlien you went to Malta? — Yes. 39. How long did you remain at Malta ? — I remained in Malta from 1824 to 1829, in the capacity I mentioned, and then I was sent to Home on government business, and remained there from 1829, to May, 1831, in the capacity of govei-nment agent; then I returned to Malta, and remained there till 1835 ; then I returned to Rome, and then left for England, and remained there up to 1842 ; I returned again to Home, and remained there till 1843. I was a priest of the Roman Catholic Church up to the year 1840, and then I went to Ireland, and remained there till 1848. 40. You studied theology in Home did you not? — Yes. 41. "What were the books which you studied in theology, in Home ? — Only St. Thomas Aquinas, because in the College of St. Thomas Aquinas, after completing j^our jihilosophi- cal course, it is determined whether you are to study moral theology or positive theology; then in case you are supposed to be comi:)etent to study positive theology, you are supposed to read moral theology privately, though you read the principles of positive theology publicly in the class. 42. M'hen you speak of positive theology, do you mean dogmatic theology? — Y”es. 43. Have you compared the books which yoci studied at that time, with the books which are studied in theology, at Maynooth ? — Yes. 44. Is there any material difference in the teaching? — Not that I can see ; but there is an impression abroad, that the theology of Liguori is studied in Maynooth; there is a material dilference between the books I studied, and the books of Liguori ; but it should be known that Liguori is not studied in Maynooth. 45. Upon what class of points is there a difference? — Upon those things that appertain to the sixth precept, known to Protestants as the seventh commandment particularly. As to other doctrines and treatment of heretics, for example, of course they are all alike. 46. You studied iffiilosophy at Malta; did you not? — Y"es. 47. Did you study much Greek or Latin there? — Latin, particularly; I knew Greek before I entei'ed into the University ; we did not make it a j^articular study. 48. Did you read the New Testament in Greek, at Malta ? — Never. 49. YMu read the Latin Vulgate, did you not ? — YTs. 50. Did you, in the course of your theological studies, read any of the Greek Eathers ? — Never; we read extracts. 51. Do you consider, from your experience as a theologian, that a knowledge of the Greek language is of iiaramount importance ? — I should think so. 62. '\Yhat portion of Holy Scripture did you read at Malta ; did you read any before you entered on philosophy ? — None. 53. Holy Scripture does not form a portion of the education of the students in philosophy, does it ? — It does not ; after you have studied philosophy, in some of the colleges, there is what is called the study of Scripture, but not in all the colleges. 54. The study of Scripture jn’ccedes the study of theology, does it not ? — Yes. 55. Did you stud}^ natural philosophy, at Malta? — Y"es. 56. Were the lectures that were delivered to you at Malta and at Home in the Latin language ? — Alwavs in Latin. O O V MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 335 Wi January, 1804. Rev. T. Butler, d.d. AVeekly delivery of sermons. Onlinanee of Council of Trent. Teaching as to sixth precept. 57. Were t'ou taught to preach sermons iu the College of St. Thomas, as a part of the system ? — No ; it is not a part of the sj'stom. 5ft. You were not educated there for the mission, were you ? — I was educated for the mission, but that forms no part of the studies of a missionary. 59. It tvould be taught in rhetoric, would it not ? — Yes. GO. Is tlie weekly delivery of sermons enforced generally iu Home and in Malta? — Yes ; in all well regulated colleges, at certain times of the year. Gl. The question was with reference, not to the colleges, but to the parishes ? — There are sermons on every Sunda}', and on almost every day in the year there are ; there are several every Sunday. G2. In jMalta, is there a weeklj^ sermon ? — Always. ()3. Are you actpiainted with the ordinance of the Council of Trent, requiring every parish priest, weekly, to instruct his people ? — Yes ; on every Sunday. G 1. At IMalta there is a very efficient establishment, is there not ? — Yes. G5. Are you acquainted with the curriculum of Maynooth, in the junior department ? — Yes ; I have seen some of the very best Greek scholars from Maynooth ; I was given to understand that Greek was not studied iu Maynooth, but I have had an opportunity of seeing that some of the IMaynooth men were most excellent Greek scholars. GG. You are aware that, at Maynooth, the study of the Holy Scriptures is concurrent with the study of natural philosophy, and precedes that of theology ? — Yes ; that is, where it is studied, it is generally the case. G7. You stated that there was a material difference between the teaching of Liguori and the teaching of the books used at Maynooth, in certain particulars ? — Y'^es; as to what the Homan Catholics call the sixth commandment. 68. Do you mean to say that the teaching of Liguori goes into a greater amount of particulars than is thought necessary in Homan Catholic colleges ? — Y”es ; again, it must be remembered that Liguori is not a class-book for many colleges. 69. It is a book of reference, is it not ? — No ; when I was a student, at Home, I was not permitted to read it ; it is the received opinion, in the Roman Catholic Church, that it is not the wnrk of Liguori, that it was not Avritten by himself, but Avritten bj^ a Jesuit, of the name of Busembaum. 70. In Avhat Avay Avere those chapters taught to the young men, and at wdiat period of Manner of teaching, their course ? — In the regular order of their studies. 71. Did the teaching come early or late in the course ? — It came, generally speaking, late, because the treatise on the sacraments and the ten commandments, comes, generally speaking, in the latter end of the course of moral theology. 72. Therefore, it conies a short time preAuously to the assumption of orders? — Yes ; a very short time. 73. Does it form part of the course of positive theology ? — Yes ; only as it bears uiion it ; you must prove dogmatically that there are seven sacraments, but you do not enter into great details, as in moral theology. 74. The treatise “ De IMatrimonio,” is part of the course of positive theology, is it not ? • — Y"es ; but wdien I studied at the College of St. Thomas, the professor passed it over, and did not explain it, excepting “ de impedimentis.'' 75. Was any reason assigned for that ? — He assigned a reason that it Avas so indelicate that he did not like to touch upon it; and he desired us to stud}", lu’ivately, the impedi- ments to matrimony. 7G. It AA'as not considered there necessary to give instruction upon the Avhole of that subject ? — No ; but then I can assign a reason for that : because persons in those countries, old and young, are addicted to the very crimes Avhich are detailed in Liguori, and are almost naturalized to them; it is not necessary to teach a person from this country those things ; they are unknowm to the people of this country, and they wnre not dAvelt upon, be- cause the native students almost understood them as Avell as Liguori himself ; but our men did not know any thing of them, and I think it Avould be very sinful to explain them to them. 77. Did you never have an explanation of them ? — Never. 78. It is not, at Rome, considered essential that an explanation should be gRen ? — I think not ; the other class-books are quite dilferent from Liguori, in this matter; they do not enter into the details that he does ; Liguori’s is a Avork that has caused a great noise here, and in England, so much has been said about it. 79. Were the other class-books, not Liguori’s, but bearing upon the same subject, read ? — They w^ere read; but they are not at all like Liguori’s ; they do not enter into all the minutie'e that he does. 80. But other class-books, on a similar subject, were read ? — Yes. 81. They Avere taught generally, but not with the same details? — No; there are two different treatises as to the sixth commandment in the Roman Catholic Church ; again, the explanation of it is different from the explanation of the sacrament of matrimony ; as to AA'hat concerns the sixth commandment, that, of course, w"e studied as Ave found it in our respective theological AA’orks, but those works did not enter into the minuti® that Liguori does ; as to the sacrament of matrimony, some of those did, and they were not explained to us ; the professor said, “ Y'ou may read privately the imi)ediments of matrimony, just know them numerically, and be able to explain them.” 82. Did he jAass the sixth commandment OA"er altogether? — No; he explained it ; but it w"as different from Liguori’s explanation ; we were to pass over the “ De Matrimonio,” except the “Impedimentis.” 83. Upon the sixth precept there is an explanation in the class-book? — As to that, Passed over in St. Thomas’s College. AYhy. 336 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 1th January, 1854. 37. Rev. T. Butler, d.d. St. Thomas Aquinas studied by witness. Relation of citizens to the state not dwelt upon in foreign colleges. Duty of allegiance enforced toProtestant and Roman Catholic sovereigns alike. Doctrine of Roman Catholic Church as to status of the Queen in respect of excommunication. Nature of heresy which produces excommunication. Distinction between a person e.xcoramuni- cated ‘ ‘ ipso facto” and one to be excommunicated. ■Witness a member of the Church of England. only one class of students studied it, that is the moral divines ; it is a different thing to study it in the books that they read, from studying it in Liguori. 84. Was it the subject of class-teaching? — Yes. 85. In general, not in detail ? — Not in the same detail as Liguori. 8G. But with the same kind of detail as other chapters? — Yes; just as it was found it "was studied and read. 87. When you came to “ De Matrimonio” what was done? — Then it was passed over h}" the professor I studied under, excepting “ Impedimentis.” 88. And all the rest of that portion of the subject was passed over ? — Y'es. 89. What was the treatise on moral theology which you studied at the College? — St. Thomas Aquinas on moral theology, and I studied privately Cuniliati and Concilia; they are two very distinguished Dominican theological writers. 90. In the Dominican College you studied the works of Dominican writers? — Y'es; hut I might study whatever I pleased. 91. The course was, exclusively, in Dominican theology, was it not? — Y'’es. 92. Was it understood there that wdiatever w'as the doctrine of the class-book, was, therefore, the doctrine of the teacher ? — Of course. He "was supposed to take an oath at the commencement of every year, to explain such and such a treatise belonging to such and such a work. 93. He was not obliged to adopt all the opinions in the treatise? — ^Generally speaking he adopted them. They were all considered safe, and were all based upon St. Thomas. 94. Was the relation of a citizen to the state much dwelt upon in the colleges in which you have been ? — I never heard it spoken of. 95. One way or the other? — Never. We never were allowed to introduce politics into any class, or to hold political conversations with any of the natives. We never had any intercourse with them ; we had no opportunitjr. 9G. In the treatises which you read were there any passages which bore upon the duties of subjects to their sovereign? — YTs, these were all taught. 97. There is a chapter, is there not, in moral theology,“De obligationibus statuum?” — YTs. 98. That refers to the duties of a citizen? — ITs ; but it was not discussed, so as to bear strongly upon us. That chapter of the treatise was read. 99. Were the duties of allegiance generally without reference to particular sovereigns enforced in the lectures ? — They w'ere always enforced upon me, without any distinction, wdiether the sovereign was a Protestant or a Homan Catholic. I never had any distinction made me by any professor. 100. Y^ou were taught that the duties of a good citizen were to obey the laws? — Of course, I was taught that. 101. Did you ever understand that, by reason of a sovereign being a heretic he was not entitled to the allegiance of his subjects ? — I heard that, but I did not believe it. It is not the doctrine of the Homan Catholic Church. That was not the doctrine taught, nor is it the doctrine of the Homan Catholic Church. 102. Are you aware of the doctrine taught in Maynooth on that subject? — I suppose it is the same as is taught generally by the Homan Catholic Church. 103. Y"ou have no reason to believe it to be otherwise ? — No, 1 have not. 104. What is the doctrine of the Homan Catholic Church, as to the status of the Queen of England, in respect of excommunication ? — I heard in England, very often, that the Queen was looked upon as an excommunicated person ; but the Homan Catholic Church does not hold her as an excommunicated person. 105. Then the Homan Catholic Church does not hold the Protestants of England to be excommunicated persons ? — By no means. I must make a distinction there. The Church of Home claims all Protestants to be members of the Church, if baptized. If a baptized person has the principles of the Church of Home properly explained to him, so that con- viction may follow, and if he shall refuse to be convinced, he incurs a censure. lOG. Y'ou understand that heresy, ■which produces excommunication, means an obstinate persistence in error, after the truth has been sufficiently explained ? — Y"es; not before. Excommunication is twofold. It may be incurred by doing a certain thing, and it may not be incurred ; but when a judicial process follows the doing of a certain act, it is tlien incurred, as it is said, 107. Y"ou would hold, in certain cases, a person to be excommunicated //wo facto ? — Y^es, if the thing -^ns properly explained ; and if the person refused and persisted with obsti- nacy, after the truth had been explained. 108. What is the distinction which the Church of Home makes between a person excom- municated /pxo facto and one to be excommunicated ? — I will sup 2 :iose that I am excom- municated ipso facto by the Church of Ptome. It is sup 2 >osed, that being born and edu- cated a Homan Cathoiic, I should know the truth. They will not allow me credit for leaving the Church of Home upon jirincii^les of conscience ; and they say that by the act itself I am excommunicated. But, with regard to the other case, it may happen that a person may not have the ojiportunities that I have had, but may have had things brought before him, then, in that case, it is necessary to admonish this jjerson, for such monitions must precede excommunication ; or such a person must be told, if you do so and so, you will incur an excommunication. Then it will also rest with the sujrerior to pronounce the sentence of excommunication or not. 109. Are 5 'ou still a member of the Chm'ch of Home? — No; I am a member of the Church of England. J 10. When did you leave the Church of Home ? — In the year 1848. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 337 111. Does the Church of Rome hold, that a Roman Catholic may not offer up prayei’S for an excommunicated person? — No; he may offer up prayers for all parties, but he may not join in prayer with an excommunicated person ; I mean, not in social worship. 113. Wliat is the difference between the prayer which maybe offered up for a heretic in common periods of the j’ear, and that which may be offered during the Raster season — say on Holy Saturday ? — In Easter week, on Holy Saturday, there is the benediction of the baptismal font. If the sovereign be a Roman Catholic, his name is mentioned in the same; but if not, of course the name is not mentioned. Again, there is a praj-er offered up for the sovereign in the canon of the Mass, if he be a Roman Catholic ; but if he be not, it is passed over in the canon ; but at the end of the ]\Iass, whether he is a Roman Catholic or Protestant, it makes no difference, then a prayer is offered up in certain Protestant countries. 113. Is there any difference in Easter week in the prayers offered for heretical persons ? — On Good Friday a prayer is offered up for the conversion of all heretics, Jews, Turks, and others. 114. Are the Commissioners to understand the difference to be this : that it is at all times lawful to pray for heretics, but that on Good Friday it is the rule to do so ? — It comes in then in the regular w'ay. The great point, I apprehend is, whether the Roman Catholic Church permits a prayer to be offered up for Protestants in the Mass. No, she does not, except for their conversion. 115. That is in the canon of the IMass ? — If the “ Rex” is not a Roman Catholic, the officiating priest must not mention his name in the opening prayer of the canon of the Mass. 110. May not the congregation pray for him? — They may do so if they please. 117. Under what instructions does the priest refrain from inserting the name of the sovereign, if a heretic, in the canon of the IMass ? — Under the instructions received by every priest in his study of the rubrics, preparatory to his first celebration of the Mass. The act of the Mass, which comprises the most solemn part, namely, from the offertory, before the “ orate fratres,” irp to the “ communion,” inclusive!}'', is looked upon as so essentially Roman Catholic, that unless a person belong to the Roman Catholic communion, his name cannot be mentioned ; the priest, in that part, representing the wdiole Church, and the Church, in its ritual, not offering up the sacrifice but for its own members. But the priest, in his own individual capacity, may mentally pray for parties, not members of his commu- nion. Every ordained priest gets an intimation of that. When I -w’as ordained a xiriest in Rome, when I came to that part of the canon, I asked who was the king I was to pray for. I was told, after you pray for the Pope you may then x^nt down the name of any Roman Catholic sovereign, or no name, just as you xdease. 118. Though it is not in the canon of the Mass, has it not been the custom, for instance, in the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Dublin, for the parish xn'iest to readax^rayer before Mass, in which he says, “ We offer it,” c.f/., the most holj’- sacrifice of the Mass, “for the Queen and all who are in high station ?” — Yes ; “ that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life.” 119. But does the x^riest not say, “We offer, &c., for the Queen?” — A priest makes his intention privately in offering ux) the Mass, and it is upon the intention he makes x^rivately, according to canonists, that the validity of the Mass depends. But a x^arish priest is sux?- posed to offer up the Mass every Sunday, according to the intentions xu’escribed in the aforesaid x^rayer, and those intentions govern him in the celebration of the Mass. 120. Is the x>riest not at liberty, in the Roman Catholic Church, to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for the conversion of a heretic from heresy, and for his temxioral welfare ? — If you connect the temporal ■w'elfare vifh the conversion, of course I would grant that. In offering up the Mass for a non-member of the Chm-ch of Rome, a priest must necessarily first offer it for his conversion as a sine qua non. 121. Ai’e we to understand, then, that a priest is permitted to offer up the sacrifice of the Mass for a living heretic? — Yes, if not publicly denounced, subject to wliat I have above stated. An erroneous impression prevails in England, that what is written about heretics, x^ersons who are, in every sense of the word, heretics, in Roman Catholic works of theologjq necessarily applies to all Protestants, which is not correct. 122. Then Protestants, generally, and the Queen of England, are not amongst those who are specially denounced ? — Of course not. 123. Is it lawful to offer up the sacrifice of the Mass for the Queen, if she be a heretic? — ^Yes, subject to what I have already stated. 124. State concisely the distinctions which are made in this matter?— All agree in this, that you may pray for an heretical sovereign — all agree that the name of an heretical monarch cannot be inserted in the canon of the Mass — all agree that you may offer the Mass for an heretical sovereign with the intentions above specified. Theologians differ on this question, whether it is lawful to offer up the sacrifice of the Mass for an heretical sovereign, who is deemed the head of an heretical church ; but this does not prevent such sovereign being publicly prayed for by Roman Catholic congregations. 125. Did you not officiate as a Roman Catholic priest in the Roman Catholic diocese of Dromore, under the Right Reverend Dr. Blake ? — Yes. 120. Are you not aware that the practice in that diocese, as well as in the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Dubhn, has been for the priest, before Mass, to read the prayer before mentioned, expressing the intention to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for “ the Queen 7th January, 1854. w. Kev. T. Butler, d.d. Prayers for heretics. Sovereign not prayed for in the canon of, the Mass, unless a Roman Catliolic. Why. Sovereign prayed for in prayer before Mass. Mass can be offered for the temporal wel- fare of a heretic, if his conversion be also prayed for. Statement of distinc- tions made in this matter. Practice of reading prayer before Mass, including prayer for the Queen. „ 338 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Tik January, 1854. 37. Rev. T. Butler, d.d. Witness’s opinion of difference between priests educated at Maynooth and those educated abroad. In respect of loyalty. In respect of learn- ing. As to effect of increased grant. Knowledge of classics. Greek as well as Latin. Sacred Scripture. Sixth precept not taught at Maynooth, 80 as to be injurious to morals of students. and all in high station — Yes ; I was accustomed to read that prayer myself, when Y officiated in either of the two dioceses. 127. Are you acquainted with the system, generally, of discipline and teaching as pur- sued at iSIaynooth ? — Yes. 12H. Are you aware of any leading feature of difference between the system of teaching at Majmooth and that in foreign colleges ? — I certainly am aware of a very important difference between the two men — a student educated at Maynooth, and a student educated at Rome. 120. In what respect is there a difference ? — I think that a student educated at May- nooth is a more straightforward, honourable, avowed, and declared opponent of Protestant- ism than tlie other. I think that the other man, at the same time that he is taught the principles of theologjq also receives a certain amount of continental cunning which is not to be seen in a Maynooth clergyman. We see that in the Church of Rome distinctly. The one remains an Irishman, and a decided opponent of Protestantism; the other may pretend that he is not, from cunning, but he is so in his heart. I have always seen that important difference in the clergy of Ireland. 130. Have you observed any distinction in respect of loyalty or allegiance to the Sovereign between one educated at Maynooth and another abroad ? — There are exceptions, so far as the Maynooth clergyman is concerned. Some may be very hot-headed, and may take a lead in political matters ; but, generally speaking, I think that they are as loyal men as the others — namely, the continental educated men. 131. In what diocese in Ireland have you had most experience? — In the diocese of Dromore, in the north of Ireland. 132. Were the Maynooth clergj'’ in that diocese well conducted, orderly people, as subjects of her Majesty? — Yes; and one now, I believe, is the first on the list to be coadjutor to the celebrated Dr. Blake, a most excellent man, who was for a long time parish priest of one of the Dublin parishes. 133. Do you think, in respect of learning, that a Maynooth priest stands on an equal footing with a priest educated abroad ? — I think decidedly so. 134. Have you had an opportunity of distinguishing between the Maynooth clergymen since 1845, and the clergy before that period ? — I only remained in the Church of Rome three years after 1845. I had not many opportunities then ; but I had, of course, in the situation which I held under Dr. Blake ; and, with resj>ect to the Majmooth men under my charge, I will say that I would much rather have to do with a Maynooth man than the others. 135. Plave you had an opportunity of forming an opinion upon the effect of the increased grant that was made by Parliament ? — Yes ; I was sorry to see the moneys applied as they were. I was very much surprised to see the students come home from Maynooth with £20 pocket-money in 1846 and 1847. We thought that the money should have been applied for books, or something else. At that time it appeared very odd, when the parochial clergy were suffering very much from the famine, that those young men should come home with £20 eacli man — namely, those who were entitled to it. 136. The question referred rather to the improved education consequent upon the increased grant ? — I have had no oppoidunities of forming an opinion. 137. Had you any opportunity of comparing the education of a Mapiooth priest, in classical literature, for instance, with the education of a Roman Catholic priest, when the prehminaiy education was conducted in the diocesan seminaries ? — So far as classical education was concerned, I have had frequent occasion to see that the Maynooth men are superior to the other men. They are obliged to be, and they are decidedly so ; I have seen that myself, and I have had many opportunities of remarking it. 138. Is there any diocesan seminaiy of which you have had much experience ? — No ; but in examinations, which I have seen, in the diocese of Dromore, of several of the students examined, belonging to the college, of Dr. Blake, on such occasions I always found the Maynooth men very superior in the classics. 139. Did that superiority extend to Greek as well as to Latin ? — Yes. 140. With reference to their knowledge of Sacred Scripture, what was your opinion of the Maynooth priests as compared with those educated on the Continent ? — I think they knew as much as the priests educated on the Continent. I saw no difference either way; but when we speak of the Scriptures, we sj)eak of them onlj”- so far as they bear upon Roman Catholic principles. 141. Have you reason to believe that the instruction given upon tlie sixth precept, and in connexion with it, is such as to be injurious to the morals of the young i^riest himself, or of those committed to liis charge ? — I am satisfied that it is not taught or explained, as it is generally believed, in Maynooth ; but I know that it is in England. Of course I must consider it injurious to a young man’s morals to have those things taught him. 142. Have you any reason to believe that it has been injurious ? — I know that the universal work in England on these subjects is Liguori’s Theology, and that is the work about which so great a noise and talk have been made. 143. Have you ever known it in fact do harm ? — Yes ; I have known harm derived from Liguori’s book. 144. You have no reason to believe that the book is studied in Ireland ? — No, I have never seen it. It is not even admitted into conferences. Dens and Bailly are the books of conferences. I must add, that when I was a student in Rome we were not permitted to read Liguori. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 339 115. With regard to that branch of instruction, as given in Ireland, 3 'ou have no reason to heUeve that it has been injurious to the morals of the priesthood or of their congrega- tions? — I think not, because it is not studied. 140. But has that branch of instruction, as studied in ]Ma 3 'nooth, been injurious to the morals of the 3 'oung men ? — I think not. I have reason to think that it has not been injurious, because they do not enter at all into the details that Liguori does. 147. Do you believe that they do not enter unnecessarily into details at Maynooth? — I think not. I do not think that an 3 ’- professor would do so. 148. Did the professors in your college at INIalta associate much with the students ? — Not much. 149. Did they dine at the same table? — Always at the same table; but they never associated with them. 150. Did they take any part in the preservation of the discipline of the college ? — There were persons appointed for that purpose. 151. The professors took no part? — No; they discharge their duties differently from what they do at Ma 3 'nooth. The man that teaches does not hear the lesson ; but in Maynooth the man that teaches hears the lesson. 152. Do you think that the great number of students at j\Ia 3 mooth is an objection to the establishment ? — I should think, if they are properly cared for, a man may as well look after one hundred as twenty. 153. Can he teach one hundred as well as twenty? — AVe have not that number in a class ; it is a thing almost impossible. 154. They cannot be examined so minutely where the number is large, with reference to the number of professors, can they ? — According to the Eoman Catholic system they can ; when there is a large number in a class, no one knows who is to be asked, and all are expected to be prepared. 155. Still the same individual attention cannot be applied? — No. 150. AVere any peculiar instructions given to you as to the mode of dealing with female penitents, as to the delicac 3 ' with which inquiries were to be conducted ? — I never heard any importance attached to it, that is to say, it was so explained in such a delicate manner; in fact, we were very glad to get over the subject. It was not so elaborately looked into as it is represented. There are very severe and very wholesome admonitions; and if a clergyman stands to them, he has cautions enough given to him when hearing tlie confessions of female penitents. 157. He is not to provoke curiosity? — No; in fact, it is a disputed question among canonists whether you are to ask any questions at all. A great many clergymen do not, except they see a person to be grossly ignorant of the sins they are committing, and they deem it necessar 3 q especially when it is about the sixth precept. 158. Caution was inculcated upon that subject? — Yes; there is that celebrated saying of Liguori, that more priests have been damned from hearing confessions than any thing else. 159. You were educated at more than one college abroad, were you not? — Yes. 160. Is it still the doctrine held there, that the Pope has any power, directly or indirectly, over the temporalities of kings? — No; I never heard it; I do not suppose that there is a more conservative government in the world than a Eoman Cathohc government. 161. AVere you taught that there was any distinction between the allegiance due to an orthodox sovereign and the allegiance due to an heretical sovereign? — No; I never heard that. 162. Then the doctrine is not held now, even at Eome, that the Pope has an indirect power of releasing from allegiance ? — It is found in all canonical books, but it is not taught as a Eoman Catholic doctrine, because it is dc facto refused. The contrary is adopted ; the other is obsolete. It was believed at the time when all the nations in Europe permitted the Pope to be their head or referee. 163. AVere 3 'ou taught that the obhgation of a contract with a heretic was of equal force with the obligation of a contract with an orthodox person ? — Yes ; but then I had another teaching with regard to the word “ heretic.” I did not look upon a Protestant as a heretic in the sense in wliich the word heretic is generally understood ; I looked upon a heretic as a person who is really so, in every sense of the word, similar to an outlaw b 3 ' the civil laws of the state ; and then it was necessary, also, to know if the contract in a Eoman Catholic country was recognised b 3 " the supreme temporal power. 164. AVere you taught that there was a distinction? — Yes; so far as I have stated. 165. Is it according to the civil law of the state that 3 'ou appl 3 "that answer? — Yes; but I know that those laws are obsolete now, for they are getting new laws and new constitu- tions ; but the old civil laws went hand in hand with the obsolete Eoman Catholic laws, and a heretic was regarded as an outlaw. 166. Did 3 ^ou hold, as a Eoman Catholic, that in Ireland, for instance, a contract with, or an oath for, the benefit of a heretic was just as binding as a contract with, or an oath for the benefit of, a Eoman Catholic ? — Yes ; certainly. 167. You did not teach then, as a priest, that a priest could absolve a Eoman Catholic from the obligation of a contract? — No. 168. Should you have thought yourself authorized to do so in a case where it might be said that the good of the Church required it? — No. 169. You were held in the school, in which you were taught at Eome, to adopt 2x2 7 tk January, 1854. 37. Rev. T. Butler, d.d. Assoeiation of pro- fessors witb Btudcnts at Malta. Instructions as to inode of dealing with female penitents. As to power of Pope over temporalities. Never heard of dis- tinction between alle- giance due to ortho- dox and heretical sovereign. Releasing power. Contracts with heretics. Distinction in mean- ing of the word. Old civil laws on the subject. Contracts with heretics binding. No power of absolv- ing from contract, even for the good of the church. 340 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Hh January, 1854. 37. Rev. T. Butler, d.d. Decisions of St. Thomas in morals, how far binding. Not bound, as a Tho- mist, by his writings on moral theology. Deprivation of princes comes under moral portion. Not bound by these opinions. Correspondence be- tween Trustees and Cardinal Prefect. Passage as to SS. Augustine and Thomas. Object of Cardinal in this passage. Witness’s sugges' tions. Morality of the people of Ireland. generally tlie teaching of Thomas Aqumas, were you not ? — Y^es ; so far as doctrines were concerned. 170. But were you held to adopt whatever you found decided, in cases of morals, hy Thomas xVquinas ? — That depends upon circumstances. The theological work of Aquinas is divided into five parts. There is the first part, the first of the second, and the second of the second, the third, and the supplement of the third. I was hound to believe every thing in the first, the third, and the supplement to the third; but the first paid of the second, and the second of the second are moral. 171. Tlien you were not considered as a Thomist, to be bound by what you found as to morals in those volumes of his works ? — No. 172. Under which head would it be found, as quoted from St. Thomas’s teaching, that princes can, sometimes, be dejirived of their sovereignt}^ ? — That comes under the moral part. 173. That was not considered as binding upon you, as a follower of Thomas Aquinas ? — No ; very often, when he is quoted, no distinction is made between his doctrinal opinions, and his opinions as a moral theologian. 174. St. Thomas Aquinas was the teacher of your divinity school, was he not? — Y"es ; I was bound, as a Thomist in matters of doctrine, to follow the statements of Aquinas, but in matters of morals I w’as not. I think it may be as well to put down, that the doctrinal matters are contained in the first, the third, and the supplement to the third part ; and his moral portions are contained in the first of the second part, and the second of the second part. It is the second of the second part that has been quoted. 175. The passages which treat of the mode in which a Homan Catholic should conduct himself in regard to a heretic, and the duties of subjects as regards the Sovereign, are portions as to which you are not bound to follow Thomas Aquinas, or to adopt his opinions ? — Certaiidy not. 176. You will perceive, by a passage in the communication from the Cardinal Prefect of the Propaganda, at Home, to the Trustees of the Pioman Catholic College of Maynooth, dated 9th July, 1796, that a special reference is made to Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, as the future guides of the College in teaching. The words are, “ Quo in delectu ne diutius hoesitandum sit, faciunt duo ilia, quae se statim omnium oculis offerunt splendi- dissima Ecclesia3 lumina, et ornamenta Augustinus et Thomas, (quorum excellenti doctrinae orbem prope totum Theologicae disciplinae complectenti, eo tutius fidere quisque valeat, quo ampliora illis omni oetate, sapientium omnium consensu, summorum Pontificum notissimis decretis tributa sunt plena laudis, et commendationis insignia.” What do you understand to be the special bearing of the reference to those two great authorities in the Church in these particular words : “ Horum ductu nimia quorundam, nimiumque dissoluta in tradendis morum regulis facilitas ita vitabitur, ut Evangelicaj caritatis mansuetudo, et suavitas ab ea qute propria est Christianae institutionis salutari severitate nunquam disjungatur,” as guides to the future instruction of the pupils of Maynooth ? — I think the Cardinal had it at heart, that the professors at Maynooth should avoid all the casuistry of the Jesuits, and, at the same time, be guided by some general safe course, and that they could not do better than be guided by the leading principles of Thomas Aquinas, without paying attention to questions of casuistry. In moral theologj" there is a great deal left to one’s own common sense. 177. You think that it applied rather to their general spirit than to any particular moral dogmas ? — Yes ; so I should think. 178. Is there any circumstance wliich at all confirms you in that interpretation? — Yes; from the character of the Cardinal (Gerdil), the author of the “ Communication,” I sup- pose that he would be a man of that description as to recommend such a line of conduct. 179. He was a man, you think, likely to recommend such a line of conduct? — Yes. 180. As a precaution against too lax a casuistry ? — Yes ; and not to follow this isolated opinion, or that isolated opinion, but to stand to the opinions of those two great men. 181. Do you not conceive, that by any acquiescence in that recommendation, the College of Maynooth was bound to adopt, implicitly, every opinion upon every moral point which could be found in the works of those authors ? — Certainly not. 182. Have you any suggestion to make as to the system of instruction pursued in the College of Maynooth? — Y'es; I think it would be better to publish new treatises for the students, without those objectionable portions in them. Looking to the instruction of an Irish Koman Catholic priest, I think it would be wise, on the part of the professors, to publish special treatises as text-books, excluding all the objectionable parts wliich are to be found in the present treatises, which w'ell-meaning Protestants speak against. 183. And which, as the Commissioners have been informed by you, are not used at Maynooth ? — Yes ; as I believe. 184. Although for some purposes the books are consulted? — Yes; I think such a proceeding on the part of the Maynooth professors would destroy all that bad feehng that is abroad now. The books would then, so corrected, be submitted to every man of common sense, and, in Christian charity, no one could speak against them. 185. Do you think, from your knowledge of the Irish peojde, that many things which it may be necessary to teach, with reference to ministerial duties in other countries, are not necessary to be taught in Ireland ? — I think so, certainly ; I am decidedly of that opinion. I think that the people of Ireland are as moral a people as may be found in any pai’t of the world. [ The Witness withdreiv.~\ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 341 Tuesday, 10th January, 1854. The Rev. Henry 'Seville exaniined. 1. You are one of the Professors of Theology who were previously examined by the Commissioners ? — Yes. 2. Will you be good enough to refer to a passage in Bailly, second volume, ])age 19, with reference to excommunication, which has been referred to by a previous witness, and state what is meant by “ heretics” in that j)assage in Bailly ? — “ Quaman sint p:eno) contra hereticos lat:e?” “ What are the punishments decreed against heretics?” “The first spiritual punishment annexed to heresy by the canon law is major excommunication^ ipso facto, decreed against it.” By “ heretics,” in this j>assage of Bailly, are meant persons guilty of the ‘■\formal crime of heresy," not persons who, through en'or, may hold doctrines in themselves heretical. In order to incur the “ formal crime of heresy,” a doctrine must be proposed as of faith by the Church, and pertinaciously rejected — the authority of the Church itself being already known, or, if not actually known, presented with such motives of credibility as it is imj)rudent to reject. 3. Do Protestants generally, or those not in communion with the Church of Rome, fall under that denomination ? — Protestants fall under the denomination of “ material heretics,” because they are taken to hold doctrines declared heretical by the Church; but it is very im])robable that Proteshints in those countries, in any considerable number, are compre- hended under heretics as above described; for Protestants, in general, have either not consideretl the matter so seriously, or have not had the motives of credibility of the Catholic doctrines submitted so satisfactorily to their minds as to incur the formal crime of heresy. 4. Is the Queen, or are the Protestant people of these countries generally included amongst those deemed heretics, against whom those punishments are denounced ? — I do not think that the Queen and the Protestant members of the community in this country gene- rally are included under the term “ heretics,” as contem])lated in that passage.* 5. Does the Queen fall under the denunciation contained in that passage, by reason of being the head of a Church not in communion with the Church of Rome? — The fact that the Queen is the head of a Church not in connnunion with the Church of Rome is not a reason Avhy she should be included under the heretics spoken of in the bull. And it is, perhaps, well to remark, that what I have stated as reepured for formal heresy 1 do not state as mere o])inion, but as the doctrinal teaching of all our theologians; and for this pur- pose I refer to Bailly, tome 2, page 17 (edition, Dublin, 1829). To the question, “ What is heresy?” he rejdies, “ It is a roluniary and pertinacious error against any truth of faith proposed by the Church, in a person who professes himself a Christian.” 6. Is the Queen at all affected, in reference to heresy, or in reference to the sentence of excommunication denounced as stated in that passage of Bailly, page 19, tome 2, by reason of her being the head of the Protestant Established Church of England ? — The fact that the Queen is the head of the Protestant Established Church of England does not constitute her a formal heretic, and, consequently, does not subject her to the censure of excommunication passed in that bull against formal heretics. 7. Is the denunciation in that bull against formal heretics only, as contradistinguished from material heretics ? — Distinctly against formal heretics alone ; there is no censure for a merely material crime — that is, for an act sinful iu its owti natm’e, but not known to be such by the agent. 8. That is to say, it applies only to those Avho are guilty of the offence of heresy, and not to those who merely entertain heretical opinions? — Yes. 9. Does that distinction appear in the body of the bull itself, or is it from the general opinion of theologians ? — From the general understanding of the term in the kvAV, and from the deffnition of heresy universally given by theologians. 10. Is that the uniform teaching of the Church of Rome, so fiir as you know? — The uniform and unexceptional teaching of the Church, and, of course, our own teaching at Mataiooth. 11. Can you refer the Commissioners readily to the distinction between formal and mate- rial heresy in any book of authority on canon law, and to an authority for considering that the bull only extends to formal heresy? — The distinction is to be found in every theologian. It occurs in page 18 of Bailly, the same volume as above, tome 2. It woidd be ridiculous to cite any special authorities, as it is given in all. It is a fundamental distinction. 12. Is this distinction found anywhere in the “ Corpus Juris Canonici?” — The distinc- tion is not found as explained, because it does not belong to the “ Corpus Juris Canonici,” to explain terms, but to the commentators on the “ Corpus Juris Canonici” to explain the terms found in it. 13. The “ Corpirs Juris Canonici” uses simply the term “heretics?” — Yes. 14. And the commentators have given an interpretation to this word ? — Yes. 15. Did you say that the ojnnions of the commentators are universal or general?— They are universal; and it cannot be otherwise, because no sentence can be inflicted upon a party not sinning ; and a material heretic, as far as the matter of faith is regarded, is guilty of no sin, as is evident from Bailly, page 18, where, heresy being distinguished into formal and material, he ])roceeds — “Formal heresy is tliat which we have defined above — namely, * I subjoin the opinion of a theologian of very high repute, which is to the same effect. “ It appears more probable that even in Germany there are merely material heretics, for persons are found so simple, or so engaged by the authority of their teachers, as to be firmly persuaded that they ought not to doubt about their faith, and who are, at the same time, sincerely disposed to abandon it should they know it to be false. Such are material, and not formal heretics. And that there are many such, numeroue confessors and most experienced authors in Germany testify .” — La Croix, Lib. 2, 94. lOfli January, 1S54. 38 ? Itev. Ilcury Neville. Distinction of heresy into material and formal ; application of this distinction to Protestants of these countries. 342 IMAYNOOTII C0M:\IISSI0N. 10(/i January, 1854. sir Kev. Henry Neville. Excommunication : its nature and effects. Protestants not under excommunica- tion. ‘ it is the voluntary and pertinacious error against any truth of faith proposed by the Church, in a person who professes liimself a Christian;’ but material heresy is an error by which a jjerson believes something contrary to faith, not knowing that it is contrary to fiiith.” 16. Do these passages from Badly to which you now refer form a portion of the lectures in the course of theology at INhnmooth? — Yes, portions which are never omitted. 17. Is that (picstion, and are those distinctions, fully discussed and made known to the students ? — Unquestionably. 18. So that you think no intelligent student can leave Maynooth vdthout being aware of the distinction ? — I think no student can be nnaware of that distinction. 19. Is the apj)lication of that distinction between formal and material heresies also made known to the students as bearing upon the condition of the Protestants within this realm? — That question not occuning in the house treatises, it is optional with the professors to discuss it or not. I have frequently heard it spoken of amongst the professors and students ; and I never heard any person hesitate for a moment to assert that the generality of the Protestants in this country were mere material heretics. For it is not sufficient for heresy that you knowingly and deliberately hold a doctrine, or knowingly and deliberately hold it against the Catholic Church, but you must, besides, have the authority of the Catholic Church so proj)osed to you, that you will be imprudent and irrational in rejecting that authority ; this constitutes pertinacity. 20. Can you say whetjier or not a student who has been fully instructed upon that matter can make any mistake as to this, that the Protestants, generally, are not included in this censure ? — I think no student, even of the most ordinary capacity, can be ignorant of the fact, that Protestants cannot be included under the excommunication uttered against heretics in the aforesaid bull. 21. Is it an essential ])art of the knowledge requisite for the priesthood to know where excommunication does, and where it does not, aj)ply ? — It is an essential part of the priest’s knowledge to kjiow the nature of excommunication, and the condititms of its application. 22. Will you be good enough to define excommunication, and stiite the matters to which it applies ? — Excommunication is an ecclesiastical censure de])riving persons subjected to it of what are called the common goods of the Church. What these goods are shall be explained in explaining the effects of excommunication. Excommunication is of two kinds, major and minor. Major excommunication has seven effects, and those seven effects consist of the privation of all the common goods of the Church. These goods are, in detail, the privation of the sacraments ; secondly, the privation of the suffi’ages ; thirdly, the privation of the public offices of the Church ; fourthly, the privation of ecclesiastical burial ; fiftldy, the privation of civil society ; sixthly, the ])rivation of jurisdiction ; and seventhly, the pri- vation of benefices. These are the seven effects of major excommunication. They are not all, however, incurred, except in the case where the major excommunication is not only incm’red but denounced. A person may be under sentence of major excommunication and still not be de])rived of the society of the faithful, still not be deprived of benefices, still not be deprived of jurisdiction, and still not be deprived of being present at the divine offices. These foixr effects do not hold in the case of a person excommunicated even ipso Jacto, pro- vided he be wdiat is termed “ iolerutus ah TLcclesia but if he be what is termed “ nominatim denunciatus" that is, publicly denounced by name as excommunicated, he becomes “ vifandns^' to be avoided, and all the effects of excommunication obtain in him. 23. Can that be infiicted by any body of a dignity less than that of a bishop? — The per- son inflicting excommunication must possess e])iscopal or (juasi episcopal power. No parish priest can inflict major excommunication, nor, indeed, any censure. Minor excommunica- tion has two effects, the depriring of the use of the sacraments, and of what is called “ pas- sive election to benefices or dignities;” and It is incurred at present only in one case, namely, l)y communicating with a person, excommunicated and denounced by name, in those matters, civil or sacred, in which he is not allowed to communicate with him. These are the effects of the major and minor excommunication. In order to incur excommunication, from its very nature, as a censure, it is required that a person be sinning and contumacious. He must be sinning, because it is an ecclesiastical punishment, and, consequently, su}>poses a crime ; and he must be contumacious, that is, he must not only commit a crime, but be acting against the monition of a su])erior ; so that a person who has never been admonished to avoid a certain crime, or to desist from a certain line of conduct, or who has not been admonished by a superior, possessing the power of censuring, cannot incur excommunica- tion or any other censure. 24. Is it necessary, therefore, that a person should be “ pertinax” in order to be excom- municated? — “ Contumax” is the term used in the present matter; it means despising the warning of a superior as enforcing action ; “ pertinax” imjdies the rejection of a sufficiently known superior authority as proposing doctrine. 25. Do the Protestant people of these countries lie under either of these excommunica- tions? — The minor excommunication cannot at all affect the Protestants of this country. And the major excommunication cannot be said to be incurred by the Protestants of this country, seeing that they may fairly be supposed to be either not sinning or not contumar- cious — not sinning against any authority threatening the excommunication contained in this bull, or at least not contumacious against that authority, both of which are absolutely required in order that the censure be incurred. 26. Are they at all under sentence of excommunication ; are they denounced? — Unquestionably, they are not denounced ; no person holds that any Protestant in these countries is under a denounced sentence of excommunication, because that could not be done without some public proclamation. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 343 27. Does tlio Queen lie under any sueh excommunication? — The Queen certainly is not lOfA January, lB5i. under any denounced sentence ot‘ excommunication ; nor do I suppose that the Queen can be under sentence of excommunication not denounced ; for, in order to incur that, she ^^’vr sliouhl he aware of tlie sentence proclaimed against heresy, in the bull of which we are speaking; be conscious that slie is guilty of the heresy, for which the excommunication is tlireatened, and still contumaciously persevere in it. Unless these three conditions concur in tlie person of the Queen, she cannot be under a non-denounced sentence of excommunication. It is highly ])robable, indeed certain, that the last two at least do not obtain in her Majesty. 28. is such the doctrine which is taught at Maynooth? — Yes, such is the doctrine taught at Maynooth, and not only at Maynooth but in every Catholic work on theology, and in every Catholic College. The (luestion is so taught that no student ought to leave Maynooth unaware of it. No student who has read the Treatise of Censures (and that treatise must be read by every student who has completed his course), can be ignorant that these are the essential conditions of excommunication. 2'd. In what part of the course does that occur? — It varies; sometimes it is read in the fii'st year, sometimes in the second ; it rotates, as do the other theological treatises. 30. Then it woidd not be true that in the teaching of this treatise the Queen of England is represented to the students as an excommunicated person ? — The Queen of England never is, nor has she ever been, presented to the students as an excommunicated person. 31. Does the Queen, in her capacity as head of the Established Church of England, fall under either class of excommunication? — The Queen of England, in her capacity as head of the Established Church of England, does not fall under either class of excommunication, because, as I said above, to incur excommunication the two conditions should be present — the sinning against an authority, recognized as such, and the contumaciously sinning against that authority, that is, the sinning after admonition. 32. Is there any difference of ojanion upon these points between what may be called the two classes of theologians in the Roman Catholic Church — the Ultramontane, and the Cis- montane ? — There is no difterence of opinion on these points, of all theologians on censures. This is the universal teaching 33. The fact of the Queen being the head of the Protestant Established Church does not in itself bring her within any of those conditions wdiich would apply either kind of excom- munication to her? — No, as that does not constitute her knowingly sinning against an authority which forbids her to act as head of the Established Church, and contumaciously sinning against it. 34. The fact of her being the head of the Church does not constitute any cause for either excommunication ? — No. 35. Will you describe and define an interdict? What is an interdict? — An interdict is Interdict: its nature an ecclesiastical censure, affecting persons and places, and depri\*ing of the use of some effects, sacraments, of the public divine offices, and of ecclesiastical burial. The sacraments of which it deprives are not those of great necessity ; so that the sacraments of necessity, such as baptism or penance, and indeed others not equally necessary with those can be adminis- tered during interdict. The definition of interdict just given is the ordinary one. See Bailly, tome 3, page 128. 36. Is all that you liaA^e now stated the doctrine that is taught at Maynooth? — Yes, it is the doctrine taught at Maynooth, and inculcated everywhere by Catholic theologians. In fact, on the principles of censures there can be no diftei’ence of opinion. 37. Does an interdict apply to persons, or places, or both? — It applies to both j)ersons and places; that is, there are two kinds of interdict, one is called personal, and the other local. 38. What are the effects in those two cases? — In the case of local interdict the three effects are produced which 1 mentioned. Some sacraments are forbidden to be adminis- tered, ecclesiastical burial is forbidden, and the public ceremonial and public divine offices are prohibited within the interdicted place. Personal interdict may contain only one effect; for instance, a person may be 'interdicted “Abingressu Ecclesue” — “ from entering the Church,” which we find mentioned in canon xxi. iv. Concil Lateranens. However, a complete personal interdict comprises the three effects already mentioned, and affects the persons directly, and not through their residence in the place. 39. In the case of personal interdict must the person be named? — Yes, if an individual be personally interdicted ; however, when a community is interdicted, it is not necessary to mention the names of the individuals who compose it. In the case of local interdict, the person who has given a cause to the interdict is personally interdicted ; so that in every local interdict you have a personal interdict incorporated. 40. Is that person named ? — That person is named in setting forth the cause of the inter- dict. He is generally some magistrate, or prince, or person in authority; a place would not be interdicted for a private individual. 41. Is Great Britain, or is Ireland now under any interdict? — Certainly not, because in These countries not both countries we have the free use of all the sacraments, and the public ceremonies of the ; it Church, and ecclesiastical burial, so far as the custom of this country extends. 42. Does the interdict of a country, or place, comprehend all its inhabitants, including those who are not in* communion with the Roman Catholic Church ? — An interdict must specially refer to the Roman Catholics, since it is with regard to them only that it can have its effects, namely, the depriving of the sacraments, of the public diHne offices, and of ecclesiastical burial. 43. Has an interdict no temporal consequences? — No, its effects are purely spiritual. 44. Does an interdict at all affect those not in communion with the Roman Catholic I 344 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. inth January, 1854. 3a Kev. Henry Neville. Temporal conse- quences resulting from excommunica- tion when the party is denounced by name. No denunciations occur with us. Catholics can pray for heretics or parties under excommunica- tion. Exception. Church? — I cannot imagine how it could affect persons not connected with the Roman Catholic Church. 45. Does it affect them in their temjtoral condition, or in any other way? — No; because what it forbids are the .sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church, the public ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church, and ecclesiastical burial, as it is used in the Roman Catholic Church. 46. Is it a conceivable case that tbe consequences of a personal interdict should exceed, or be more extensive, than the consequences of major excommunication? — No; the greatest of all censures is major excommunication. Its effects comjn-ehend the jn-ivation of all the spiritual goods which are at the disj)Osal of the Church. Personal interdict depi’ives of only certain sj)ii'itual goods of the Church. 47. IMajor excommunication is, in fact, the most complete personal interdict? — It may be termed such ; it is the severest of all the Church penalties. 48. Is there any sentence, exclusion from fire and water of the party under sentence, and does that arise under an ecclesiastical interdict? — Such effects must belong to a civil inter- dict ; they do not follow from ecclesiastical interdicts, or excommunication. 49. Therefore, in a country where the civil law does not sustain the sentence of the eccle- siastical law, temporal consequences cannot follow? — Certainly not; in a country where the civil law does not ratify the censure, at least permissively, by allowing denunciations of excommunication to be made, no temporal conseciuences can follow, since the only two effects which involve temporal results, viz., the ])rivation of ciA'il society and of ecclesiastical sepul- ture, do not obtain iinless in case of denunciation. 50. Does any thing with respect to exclusion from fire and water apj)ly either bj" way of interdict or excommunication in Great Britain or Ireland ? — No. 51. iMight it apply, in such a case, to exclude from voluntary kindnesses bestowed, in wdiich the state never interferes ? — An interdict from fire and water is in no case the result of an ecclesiastical sentence. 52. To what extent would the common offices of life l)e forbidden in the case of a person wdio was denounced as vitaiuhoi '} — In a country where the denunciations take place, the effects, as to civil society, are enumerated in the line, “ Os, orare, vale, communio, mensa negatur,” conversation with a person, praying with him, saluting him, intercouse with him at the same house, or the same table, and partnership with him, are forbidden. But still all theologians say, that a very slight necessity will wairrant a person in joining even a denounced excommunicated party, for a short time, and in a matter of slight importance. For instance, if he met a denounced excommunicated person at an hotel, he would not be prohiliited by excommunication from dining with him at the same table. 53. Would he be probibited from relieving his wants and misery by charitv ? — Certainly not ; on the contray, the law of charity would bind as well to an excommunicated party as to a person not excommunicated. Charity admits no such distinction, nor does the end of this effect of excommunication require it ; in a word, this effect is identically the same in its object and nature with the punishment inflicted by St. Paul on the incestuous Corinthian, in 5th cha]iter of First Epistle to Corinthians. It is exactly that very punishment. 54. Do those civil consequences apply where the civil law docs not give its sanction to the excommunication ? — Those civil consequences cannot arise where the denunciation does not take place ; and as no denunciation occui’s in this country, therefore none of those con- sequences can obtain in this country. 55. If a person was denounced, those consequences would, in fact, follow, would they not? — Yes. 56. Except where it was contrary to law ? — Yes ; for there the enforcing of this effect w'ould be attended with innumerable inconveniences, which would be a quite sufficient reason for not observing it. 57. Is it forbidden to give alms to a person denounced as a heretic ? — Certiiinly not ; the obligation of almsgiving, being an office of charity, is universal. 58. Does the practice of denouncing persons vitandi exist in this country ? — No such practice exists in this country as denouncing persons who have incurred major excommunication. 59. Is there any thing in the nature of heresy, irrespective of excommunication, to prevent the prayers of Roman Catholics being offered for the sj)iritual and temporal welfare of heretics ? — No ; the prayers of Roman Catholics may be divided into those which tliey offer as private individuals or as partial communities ; and those which they offer by virtue of unity of communiou as one Church. With regard to the prayers which Catholics offer, as private individuals, or as partial communities, these can be offered for heretics and excommunicated persons, in fact, for any persons inside or outside the })ale of the Church, for their spiritual and temporal welfare. In the prayers, however, that are offered by the whole community of Catholics, as one person, through their authorized ministers, and which are determined even in their wording — such as the prayers in the liturgy of the Mass — Pro- testants and excommunicated ])ersons — persons, in a word, out of the pale of the Church — are not allowed to be introduced by name, except in one instance, namely, in the service of Good Friday. The priest, in so far as he acts as the minister of the whole Church, cannot introduce the name of any person outside the j)ale of the Church into the canon of the IMass, or into the collects of the Mass, but he can pray with himself, and with his present congregation, and offer the IMass himself, and in union with the congregation present, for persons inside or outside the pale of the Church. I beg to refer the Commissioners to Bailly on this A'ery subject : at tome 3, page 90 (Dubliu, 1828), after stating that the priest or cleric cannot offer the sacrifice of the Mass, or the canonical hours, publicly and in the name of the Church for excommunicated parties, he then proceeds — “As I have said, publicly and INIINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 345 j'or the ministers of‘ the ('hnrch, ami for the \oth Jamumj, isoi for e.xcommiinicated |>arties— nay, tlie priest, in tlie very sacriiiee of tlie Mass — tliat is, in the mcniaihi' (which is the ])lace where he in the name of the Church; hut it is lawful faithful, to pray ])rivate!y, in their own nanu‘. applies his own i)rivat(‘ intention within the canon of the Mass) — “ in tlie i as a pri- vate person, can |)rav for an excommunicated party, and even apjily to him the special fruit of the sacrifice of which he can disjiose ; ]tro\ itled that he abstain from mentioinng his name in the canon or in the collects.” (!(). A distinction is drawn between the ajiplication of the Mass, in the name of the Church, in tlie one case, by the otHciating jiriest, or by any of the congregation, in their several and individual capacities? — Yes, or as the community of a jiarticular ])lace ; and it could not be expected that the Church, diffused everywhere throughout the Avorhl, should offer a jiraver jieculiar to it as one body, for jiersons outside its jmle ; and much less could it be exjiecteil that the portion of the Church rejiresented liy the Austrian, French, or American commu- nities, Avould ])i’av, through a jiriest officiating in Ireland, for the Sovereign of these countries, said Sovereign not being within the pale of the Church. And this is the only restriction Catholics are subjected to, as to ])raying for lieretics or excommunicated jiersons. ()1. The sacrifice of tlie INIass may, in fiict, be offered up imjilicitly but not exjilicitly for a heretic ?— It can be offered uj), even ex])licitly, in the Avords and intention of the jiriest himself, but not ex))licitly in the Avords of the C'hurch. 62. So far as the ])ricst represents the Avhole Church, the A\diole Churcli, tlirough him, speaks in the language of its liturgy, does it not ‘I — Yes, and he cannot change it. 63. lie cannot introduce AA'ords that Avill impose upon the Avhole Church, as a body, a jiraA'crfora jierson not in communion Avith them? — No. (i4. But as an individual, and concurring Avith a particular congregation, for Avhom he celebrates Mass, he can offer u]> the sacrifice there, in his oavii intention, and in the concur- ring intention of the congregation, for heretics and excoinmunicated persons, and persons Avithin or Avithout the jiale of the Roman Catholic Church? — Yes; and a A'ery ajjjiosite instance occurs to me just iioav, illustrating Avhat I have stated, that the ])riest cannot inter- fere Avitli the AVords of the liturgy — though it is hiAvful for him on all days to offer Mass for the souls of the faithful de])arted, still he cannot, on certain days of solemnity, introduce the names of the faithful departed into the liturgy, but he must only pray for them in his oAvn priAute memento. 65. On those days the service is offered as by theAvhoIe Church solely for the jmrposes to AA’hich those days are deAuted? — Solely for the purposes to AA'hich the liturgy is accommodated, r Avould Avish to add, that not only can the sacrifice of fhe Mass, and other prayers of the Church, be offered for excommunicated persons, and j)ersons out of the pale of the Church, but Ave have the authority of some of ourgra\"est theologians that the or stipend giA'en on the occasion of celebrating mass for a certain object, can be receiA'eil from excom- municated ])crsons, and persons outside the pale of the Church, proAuded those excommuni- cated parties be “ tolerated by the Church.” 66. What is the authority to Avhich you refer? — The o])inion is stated in Delahogue “ De Et/c/taris/ia," Dublin, 1845, l>age 3f)i — the Avords are those, “ Estius, SylAUUs, DroAATn, Billuart, de Pudir/ione, caj). 2, qiu etiam addit honorarium ab illis accipi ])osse, a fortiori ab alio cpiocumpie in eundeuifinem.” “ Who cA^en adds, that the ‘ Honorarium' can be received from them, a fortiori, from any other party for the same end.” These Avords are of Billuart, Avho has Avith him Pasqualigua de IMissa and others, as quoted and adopted by La Croix, Lib. () de ^lissa, 34. The three former aIo not entertain the case of fhe llovurarium," but strongly assert the laAvfulness of offering the IMass for heretical or excommunicated persons, and are cited at length in the same chajjter of Delahogue. ()7. ’You mentioned, in stating the matters from Avhich a denounced person under major excommunication aa'us excluded, the sutti’ages of the Mass, from Avhich he Avas so excluded, as distinguished from the sacraments? — Yes. i)8. Will you state iioav in Avhat manner the IMass, as a suffrage of the Church, is regarded in reference to ]>ersons denounced under major excommunication? — When 1 say that a ])erson under major excommunication is de]>riAud of the suff’rage of the Mass, I mean that ho is deprived of the benefit accruing from the IMass offered by the AAdiole Catholic community, through the ministry of their priests, all OA'er the Avorld ; but by no means that he is dejadA'CAl of the })rayers of the jndest, or congregation present in any particular place AAdiere the IMass is offered. (if). Or of the sacrifice of the IMass, as offered by them? — No. 70. V”ou tlistinguish betAveen the ))rayer of the Church and the jn’ayer of the congregation? — Yes ; the former being the suffrage of the AA'hole Church, and the latter a particular prayer ottered by particular persons, or communities, and for jiarticular objects. 71. The Mass, as a sacrifice, can be offered for heretics and excommunicated persons of all classes by a congregation, and by an indiAudual priest? — VYs; and to ])roA e that the laAv- fulness of praying and offering the IMass for persons outside the [tale of the Church is not a singular opinion, but is the uniA’crsally recciA'ed teaching of fathers and theologians, I beg to refer the Commissioners to a commentary on Scrij)ture called the “ Triplex Expositio,” which is in most common use in Maynooth ; the aiithor’s name is Piconio ; the edition is of Paris, 1840. In this commentary, Avlien explaining the opening A'erses of the Second chapter of St. Paul's First Epistle to Timothy, he Avrites as folloAvs : — “ St. Chrysostom, Theophy- lactus, Theodoret, Ambrosius, St. Augustine, and all the interpreters, hoth Greek and Latin, understand the prayers here commanded to be those' of the public congregations in the Church Avhere priests and people pray together. St. Aug. Epis. 59 ; and Paulin, q. 5, refers 2j/ 38 . Uev. Henry Neville. Mass can be offered for person.s outside the pale of Churcli ; authorities cited. 346 MAYNOOTIl co:\niissiOK lOlA January, 1854. 38 . Rcr. Henry Neville. Manner in which Mass may be offered for person not in the Church. tlie passage to tlie liturgy of the IVIass and its ])arts. St. Thomas explains it similarly, hut St. Auffustine is specially to be noted, because from his observation the anti(|uity of the Mass in all its ]>arts is established. ‘ For all men,’ that is, for all and every man, so that we exclude no one from our prayers ; ‘ for the ])riest is, as it were, the father of "the world, he should there- fore have a care of all, and ])rovide for all, as (xod does, whose ministry and place he fills.’ So reasons St. Chrysostom. The ecclesiastical rule (riven by the doctor of the nations, namely, to su])plicate for all, is that which our priests follow. Ambrosianus — ‘ For kino-s and those in high station therefore, even for pagan kings, (since there were no other at that time), for their ministers, and for all who have care of the state, Christians must pray. For kings, because their condition calls for it, being a participation of the divine authority, and for their ministers, for their office is an emanation of the royal dignity.” 72. Does the commentator to whom you refer, apply that to ])ersons in and out of the j)ale of the Roman Catholic Church? — The commentator explains it as ap|)licable to all without distinction — “For all and every man, even for pagans, so that Ave would absolutely exclude no one fi’om our ])i'ayers, because the })i’iest is as it were the father of the whole world. It is therefore meet that he should have the care of all, and provide for all, as God also does, whose ministry he fulfils.” So writes St. Chrysostom. 73. Is that a class-book now at Maynooth? — We liaA^e no regular class-l)Ook on the Scrip- tures, but this book is in most common use amongst the students in their study of the Ej)istles of St. Paul. 74. Is that ]ias.sage cited or copied into any class-book? — It is cojned into Delahogue’s Treatise of the Incarnation, ])age 118 (Belfast 1840). After quoting the Avords of the Apostle, he adds — “ These last Avords ol)viously regal'd eA'eu infidels, such as then AA'ere the Emperor Nero, and all the Roman magistrates.” 7.0. Is it a necessary ingredient in praying for heretics that their coiiA-ersion should precede, and be a necessary condition of their temporal prosperity? — No ; aa'c can i)ray even for their tem])oral good, for their temporal prosperity; and this is manifest from the Avords of St. Paul, which are introduced into our ])rayers, for one of the objects for AA'hich Ave [)ray is that Ave ourseU'es may lead a quiet and peaceable life. Noav our temporal Avelfare Avill, of course, dejiend u])on the temporal Avelfare of the Sovereign : as Ave can pray for the former object, we can, therefore, pray for that from Avhicli it Avill arise, namel}', the temporal good of the SoA'ereign. 76. Independently of conA'ersion? — Yes. 77. But that Avould be prayed for indirectly, Avould it not ? — Yes, indirectly. 78. And praying directly for your oavu comfort as subjects, you Avould pray indirectly for the temporal Avelfare of the SoA'ereign ? — The question as to the licitness of offering the sacrifice of the Mass directly for the temporal good of jiersons outside the pale of the Church, independently of their coiiA^ersion, does not aj)])ear to liav’e been noticed expressly by our theoloffians, the difficulty not ansing from the fact of being outside the Church, but being more general, and consisting in the doubt of the hiAvfulness to make tem])oral goods in them- seh'es, the object of prayer or sacrifice. A great many theologians say that you cannot pray for temporal goods for any person independently of their spiritual good, biit only on the condition that it is connci'ted Avith their spiritual good ; and as the great and the only immediate spiritiral good to be looked for as to persons outside the pale of the Church, is their coiiA^ersion, these same theologians Avould say that you cannot jiray for the temporal good of persons outside the pale of the Church, except in connexion Avith their conA'ersion. And if the temporal goods be taken to mean Avorldly prosperity, riches, or the like, this opinion is uniA'ersal. Some theologians, lioAveA'er, distinguish a certain class of temjioral goods Avhich are in themselA’es desirable as absolutely good, such as health, and these they I’egard as a suitalde object of direct ]>rayer. There is nothing, tlien, to prevent the ju’iest, ])rovided he do not act as minister of the Church, to offer INIass directly for the health or such like good of a SoA'ereign outside the pale of the Catholic Church. 70. Are these ojnnions connected AA'ith any tAvo great classes or schools in divinity, or are they sejiarate and indiA'idual opinions? — They are separate and indiA’idual opinions. 80. There is no teaching that it is unlaAvful to offer the sacrihee of the Mass for the tem- prira! good of a sovereign, though that soA'ereign be outside the pale of the Roman Catholic communion, and be the head of a Protestant Church? — Certainly not. Theologians expressly state that the tem])oral good of a soA'ereign outside the Church can be the indirect object of impetration in the Mass; and that it is laAvful to make it the direct object is clearly deducible from theological principles. 81. When a'ou say that the suffi’ages of the Avhole Church are not given for persons not within the communion of the Church of Rome, do you mean that the suffi’ages offered by the liturgy of the Mass are suffrages offered for the entire Church in all nations, and that, so far as it is the offering of the entire Church of all nations, the Chiu’ch s])eaks through the litui'ffv, and AA'ill not suffer the liturgy to speak on behalf of all, unless Avith regard to those who are in communion AV'ith her ? — That is an exact statement of the doctrine. 82. But that all the congregations of one nation, including all the priests of one nation, may offer up all the INIasses said in that nation for the spiritual and temporal good of its monarch, thoiigh that monarch may not be in communion AA'ith the Roman Catholic Church, and maA^ be, as in the case of the Queen of England, the head of a Protestant Church, and not in communion AA'ith the Church of Rome ? — I suppose the question to mean that the temporal and spiritual good of the Queen is a laAvful object, for Avhich any priest and con- gregation may offer the mass; this is perfectly correct. Practically, of coui’se, all the Masses in the nation could not be deA’oted to that sole object. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 347 83. Look at Bailly, tome 3, page 90, beginning — “llinc gravitor jieccaret sacerdos vel clericus, (pii ])iil)lice et nomine ecclesim sacriticium, lioras canoniras pro excommiinieatis orterret; quia precc[)tiim oeelesia} in materia gravi transgrederetnr. Imo invalida t'oret iis sic facta surtragiornm ap|)licatio, ([iiia ecclesia suti'ragiorum illornm dispensatri.x lianc a])])licatio- iiem irritam t'acit,” which appears to he translated in page 33 of’ “The Churcli of’ Rome;” and .say whether the olf’ering of’ tlie sacrifice ])ubliely, in the name of’ the Clinrcli, for tho.se excomnmnicated, as mentioned in that passage, applies to the oifering of the sacrifice, as on the part of the whole Chnreh, in the manner that you have already described ’? — The words pahlioc ct nomine ccclexiie refer to the insertion of his name in the ])ublic liturgy of the Church, which ])ublic liturgy is the expression of the intentions of the entire Roman Catholic community diffused over tlie whole world. 84. Can you specify any theologian whose works are referred to at iVIaynooth, in the course of the lectures on theology, Avho maintains, directly, the proposition that it is lawful to offer up the Mass for the temporal welfare of a heretic, irres])ective of his convei’sion ’? — As I have already .said, our theologians do not take up the <|uestion in this exju’ess form; still, 1 think 1 can ])oint out the opinion, at least ecjuivalently, in one of our highest autho- rities, Cardinal de Lugo. The ))assage occurs in Ins treatise “ l)e Eucharistia,” Dis]). xix., section ix. “ P. Vascpiez remarks that these goods, only as they conduce tos])iritual ju’ofit, can be obtained through this sacrifice ; for Christ did not die for things purely temporal, and unconueeteil with spiritual. This, however, has been examined in our treatise on grace; and we have seen that, although Christ died ouly for our sjnritual salvation, it still ap])crtains to his dignity that he can obtain for men temporal goods, through which then will easilj/ he attracted to hir umr&hip and reverence. Hence, though a ])erso!i asking a temporal good from Christ, or through Christ, may not refer that to his salvation, it may still be obtained through Christ, since such a benefit maybe of i'relf calculated to hrintj men to him." In this section he is treating of the fruit or ejfectv of the j\Iass; in the following section he discusses those for whom it maij he fruitful., and distinctly allows it to be offered for infidels, and even for persons excommunicated, but not tlenouuced by name. We m.ay, therefore, fairly conclude that Cardinal de Liigo allows the Mass to be offered directly for the s])iritual or temporal welfare of all, except excommunicateil denounced persons. Two reasons advanced by him for his o])inion ]:>ut this beyond donbt: one, that it is lawful to off’er the Mass for obtaining any just object from God ; the other, that as it is lawful to off’er INIass for the health of an animal of value — .as a cow or a horse — it must be lawful to offer it for an infidel. Again, Suarez, who may Ijc regarded as our very first authority, writes to the following effect on the present matter, in Liber 18, Quest. 83, Disp. 78, Section 2. I give only the substance of the passage. He first shows that the IMass can be off’ered for infidels, by four arguments : first, the jMass can be united with any just prayer, therefore with a prayer for infidels, which is certaiidy just; secondly, from example of old law, under which sacrifices wei’e offered for infidels — for Darius, as ap])eai’s from 1 of Esdras, G ; for the Spartans, 1 of Machabees, 12 ; for Heliodorus, 2 Machabees, 3 ; thirdly, from the usage of the Church, which he, relying on authority of Chrysostom and other commentators, both Greek and Latin, traces to First Epistle to Timothy, of which we have spoken already; and fourthly, because, as the sacrifice of the cross was offered for all, so should it be lawful to off’er the IMass for all, it being the same sacrifice with that of the cross He then raises the question as to whether this off’ering, which he has ja’oved lawful, must be indirect, and regard only spiritual goods, and to both ])arts of the question he gives an answer in the negative. Lastly, he solves an objection from St. Augustine, Lib. 1, de Origine Anima*, caj). 8 — “ Quis offeret sacrificium Christi nisi ])i'o iis qni sunt membra Christi?” by saying, with St. Thomas, that the Father means, by “ mendjra Christi,” those who actually are, or those who may become, members of the Church, “ membra actu,” or “ membra potentia.” This author, however, does not extend the concession to ])arties under excommunication, even in the case in which they are not demmnceil. I am sure that the same could be shown to be the implied teaching of most of onr theologians ; but I take it for gx’anted that tlie.se two, being our two greatest authorities, will suffice. 85. Will you just look at the “ Prayer before IMass” contained in that table fiandhu/ the same to the witness ; see Aj)pendlx\. Are you aware of that prayer being read out by the priest for the congregation, immediately before the celebration of the Mass, on Sundays, in the archdiocese of Dublin? — Yes, T am aware of that. 86. You observe a part of that ])rayer in which the ])riest says, “We offer if’ — that is, the sacrifice of the Mass — “for the Queen and all that are in high station, that we mav lead a quiet and ])eaceful life.” When the priest reads that ]>rayer before Mass, does the priest offer the sacrifice of the IMass for those intentions? — The priest necessarily offers the sacra- fice of the Mass for the intentions here expressed, for those words are to be looked upon as the directing of his intention. 87. And the intention of the congregation? —Yes, as uniting with him in the off’ering of the sacrifice of the Mass. 88. 4Vonld it be lawful for the priest, having read that prayer for the congregation, to wfithhold from the intentions with which he offers the IMass any of the intentions sj)ecified there’? — The priest would sin by so doing; and the revoking of his own intention ivould not affect the intention of the people who prayed with him in oti’ering the Mass, even if he committed that sin. 89. Does your answer apply to any priest who would read the ]>rayer previouslv to cele- brating Mass, or to a parish priest alone? — It ajiplies equally to a parish priest and to any other priest; for the fact of reading it necessarily directs his intention, and unites his prayer 2y 2 10(/( .Januanj, "iiy ]{uv. Henry Neville. Mass can be ottered directly lor teiniKiral good of person not within tlie pale of the Church. Usage in this country to pniy for the Sovereign. :^IAYNOOTH COMMISSION. :I48 lOth Jamtanj, 18.')4. Kov. Henry Neville. Ciistoni of praying for the Queen in ^laynouth. ■\vitli tliat of the people for the purposes here mentioned; and lie cannot, -without sin, retract that intention afterwards, wliether he be a j)arish priest or a curate. yo. AVhat difference -would there be between a parish ])riest and a curate in respect of the intention ? — I cannot see any. 01. Is not the parish ju'iest obliged to offer Mass every Sunday for the peo])le? — Yes; hut he can f>tfer it for this purpose, too — for both purposes. The ottering of it for his parish- ioners does not exclude his offering it for the intentions here specified. 0:?. 'flic only difference Ijetween a ])arish ]>riest and a curate in this respect is, that a ]\arish [triest is bound to offer it for his })arishioners, and a curate is at libert-\' to offer it? A parish ])i'iest is bound to offer the sacrifice of the INIass s])ecially for his parishioners on Sundays and h.olidays, from -wliich obligation the curate is exempt. 93. Are you acquainted -with a book called “ The Key of Heaven?” — Yes. 94. There are various editions (jf that book, successively published from time to time, are there not? — Yes. 95. In that copy in your hand, of 1S40, do you observe a similar prayer there? — Yes; I find that the ])rayer is exactly the same. 9(). Are you aware of that book being extensively used by Roman Catholics? — Yes; it is a ])i'ayor-book in general use throughout Ireland. 97. Is High Mass celebrated every Sunday in Maynooth? — -Yes : every Sunday we have High IMass. 98. Is there a portion of the service on Sundays a])propriatod to prayer for the Queen? — Yes ; immediately after the High IMass the master of the choir intones the antiphon for the Queen, repeating “ Domino salvam flic Reginam nostram,” “ O Lord, save our Queen,” three times; he is resjionded to by the whole community, in these Avords, “ And hear us on that day Avlien Ave shall invoke thee.” The officiating priest then proceeds to read the ])rayer for the (^ueen. 99. Are you aide to specify that prayer? — The prayer is that giA^en in the missal, “ Pro Rege,” for the SoA'ereign, and is as folloAvs: — “ We beseech thee, () God Almighty, that thy serv'ant, Victoria, Avhom thou hast raised to the gOA^ernment of this kingdom, may obtain from thee an increase of all A'irtues, Avith AA'hich, becomingly adorned, she inaA" avoid the monster of A'ice, and, pleasing to thee, arrive at thee, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, through Christ our Lord, Amen.” 100. What is the manu})le? — The maiuqile is the part of the priest’s dress Avorn OA'er the arm. It Avas not oi’iginally one of the sacred A'estments, but Avas rather a kind of toAvel or napkin AAdiich the priest used during the sacrifice of tlie Mass. AYriters on the liturgy describe its uses as coinciding Avith those of a na])kin or jiocket-handkerchief (from Avhich the name manuple), vide Romsee ; Praxis celebrandi Missam, part 3, page 172. Such appli- cation of it has, lioweA'er, long since ceased, ju'obably in the tAvelfth century, and it is now retained as one of the priestly ornaments. 101. At Avhat jAcriod of the seiwice is it remoA'ed from the arm? — The manujde is ncA’er used except Avithin the liturgy of tlic IMass itself ; so that if ju’oeessions are to succeed Mass, or cA-en Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, or any other ceremony that is not strictly a ]).'irt of the liturgy of the IMass, the manu})le is remoA’ed, the other A-estments still being con- tinued to be Avorn by the priest. 102. At Avhat period is it removed? — It is remoA'cd immediately after the liturgy of the IMass closes, that is, after the GosjacI of St. John has been recited by the ])idest. 103. Does the prayer and antiphon for the Queen folloAv that portion of the service? — The antiphon and prayer for the Queen are not part of the litiu'gy of the Mass. The liturgy of the IMass cannot be changed, and they are consequently I’epeated after the liturgy of the Mass has been concluded ; therefore, in conformity Avith the general obseiw- ance on the matter, the manii)le is remoA'cd, all the other A’estments being retained. 104. The liturgy of the INlass is a separate form, Avhich is not susceptible of change ? — Yes. 105. Is the liturgy of the IMass the same as the canon of the Mass? — The canon forms only a ]>art of the liturgy of the IMass, beginning after the ja’eface, and ending at the Pater Noster ; it is subject to no variation, Avith tAvo or three slight excejitions. 1(H). Do you knoAv AA’liether or not, Avhere the Sovereign is not a Protestant, that antiphon is recited at the close of the service in the same Avay? — I cannot say from jAositive knoAv- ledgc, but I am satisfied that, in com])liance Avith the rubrics, the manuple should be removed AvheneA^er a ])rayer is said outside the liturgy of the Alass. 107. Do you knoAv Avhethcr that j)raA’cr is used in Maynooth for our Queen, and Avhether it is used after High Mass for the sovereign in Roman Catholic countries? — I have heard that it is so used in other countries Avith us, eA’en Avhen the benediction of the blessed sacrament immediately folloAA’s the High Mass, the prayer for the (^ueen is recited imme- diately after the prayer for the saint for the day. 108. In addition to AA'hat is done after High Mass? — No; it is not said immediately after High Mass, Avhen benediction is to be given, the benediction immediately folloAA's the IMass, and at the benediction, in the presence of the blessed sacrament, the prayer for the (^ueen is recited. 109. As a ]>art of the ceremony during the benediction? — Yes. 110. After the ceremony of the Mass is conchided? — Yes. in. Is the benedictum the ceremony of the Church most solemn after the Mass? — It is. The benediction is the ceremony of the Church in Avhich the priest blesses the peoj>le Avith the blessed Eucharist. .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ;IU) 112. And wliile tlio devotion is continniiuj; tlie ])V;iyer is recited for tlie Queen ? — Dnriiuf the exposition of tlie blessed sucraineiit, in the ceremony of the heiiedictioii, the jn’aver is reciteii for the (jlueen. lid. Do you conceive it possilde that any of the Maynooth students can liold the opinion that the taking; off of the niaiuijile is sijxniticative of the priest for a nionient layiii”; aside Ins sacerdotal office? — 1 never heard so absurd an opinion e.xpressed; it vas never dreamed of in the College. 1 Id. Or that it is a sign that the jirayers thenceforward to he offered are in any manner to he Icssertective? Certainly not; such an intention would he at once Impious and hy])ocritical. Ilf). Do you think it ]) 0 ssihle that some of the students should manifest their disloyaltv ■when singing the antiphon for the Queen, by substituting the word, “ whack” for “fac”? — 'I'lie students do not sing that ])art of the antiphon at all; it is sung solo, by the master of the choir, hence the substitution is impossible. IK). Can you state how excommunication is regarded in reference to what is called “ ])i’ivatio sc])ultur;e”? — One of the effects of excommunication is the privation of Christian burial. This effect holds only with regard to a person e.xcommunicated and denounced bv name, and who has died without showing any sign of sorrow for his crime. In some Catholic countries such ])arties are not allowed to be buried in the cemeteries blessed and set aside for the burial of the faithful ; and in the old canon law, in case such per.sons Avere buried there, they are ordered to be exhumed, and their bodies removed elsewhere, and tlie cemetery was said to be deffied liy the burial of such a ])erson within its ])rccincts. 117. Does that apply at all to the Protestant inhabitants of this country? — It cannot apply to the Protestant inhabitants of this country; fii’stly, because they are not excommu- nicated ; and, secondly, because they are not publicly denounced. 118. Is the refusal, in Roman Catholic countries abroad, to allow ecclesiastical burial to heretics, conlined to those only who are formal heretics, and who have been s])eciffcally and personally denounced? — I cannot answer for the usages of particedar places ; but it ought not to be denied, except to formal heretics and if it he denied in any ]>laces to material heretics, it must arise from the ignorance of the peo])le, wdio may not sufficiently distinguish betw'een a material and a formal heretic, and may presume that, as a person holds heretical doctrine, he must be a formal heretic ; Avhich, perhaps, should not be wondered at if the j)eo])le be exclusively Catholic. lib. Is IMaldonatus tlie commentator on the Gos]>els avIio is referred to in IMaynooth? — IMaldonatus is used in MaAuiooth, but he is not the commentator most genei'ally used. Jan- senius is the commentator most generally used on the Gospels. 120. Passages have been referred to in i\Ienochius and JMaldonatus’s Commentaries, Avho have been spoken of as authorities at Maynooth, Avhich ajiparently justify the putting to death of heretics. Have you any obseiwation to make in regard to sirch quotations? — It cannot be denied that several of the old theologians justified the conduct of the civil govern- ment in putting heretics to death. We must, however, rememlier that this was iieA'cr the act of the Church ; that the Church had no part in it, exce])t in so far as theologians tolerated by her justified the conduct; and of those theologians we find the most respectable defending themselves by saying that, generally, the heretics of Avhom they spoke Avere not only ]>ersons AAdio endeavoured to introduce corrupt doctrine, but Avhose iiriuciples Avere suliversive of social order ; and that if not on account of their doctrine, at least on account of the seditious principles Avhich they inculcated they AA^ere justly subjected to capital punishment. 121. Briefly, the temporal jmnishment of heretics AA’as ahvays left by the Church to the civil poAv'er? — Yes; but I must state, that AAdiether the teaching of the older theologians on the point is capable of ex])lanatlon or not, the opinion is noAV entirely exploded; and no jirofessor or student in IMaynooth Avould A’enture to assert the justifiableness of putting to death heretics for mere heresy — mere error of doctrine. 122. Are ])assages of this nature ever made the subject of remark, Avlth a aucav to the ex])ression of a difference of ojiinion from the commentators? — I have no ex];)erience of the Scrijiture Class, except from my oAvn period of study in tliat class; but I never yet heard that passage, or any passage of the same tendency, tolerated in IMaynooth, or proposed liy any jirofessor as an open or free question. I luu'e heard the contrary doctrine most stre- nuously insisted on. 123. llaA'e you ever heard that Commentai’y of IMenochius condemned in the lectures? — I liaA'c neA'er heard it condemned ; it Avas formerly in use as a text-book, but is scai’cely ever read uoav. 124. IlaA'e those matters relating to excommunication and to interdict any reference at all to allegiance, or to social rights and contracts — allegiance toAvards a Protestant monarch, and contracts betAA^een Roman Catholics and those out of the communion of the Roman Catholic Church? — Excommunication or interdict cannot in the slightest degree inter- fei’e Avith the duty of allegiance due from a subject to his monarch ; because, though an excommunicated party, aaRo has been denounced by name, is depriA’ed of the civil society of the faithful, a special exception is made in fiiA'our of the monarch, for AAdiich I Avill refer the Commissioners to Bailly, tome 3 (1828), page 102. There, in exjilanation of the exceptional cases, in AA’liich it is laAvful to communicate Avith an excommunicated and denounced person, he explains the one expressed by the Avord “humile” in the folloAving manner. The third * The following passage is from La Croix, one of our first moral Theologians: — “ X.avarrus anil Lugo, de fide, and many others quoted by Gobat, think that the prohibition of Ecclesiastical sepulture refers to heretics Avho are denounced by name as vitandi. Others, howeA'er, think it applies Avhen they die notoriously heretics, for then their heresy is both /or/«a/ and e.xternal .” — La Croix, Lib. vii. 2j8. 10(/i ,](tmuirij, iK.'il. Kev. Henry Neville. Llfect of excommu- nication — privation of ecclesiastical burial. How it .af- fects this country. Civil punishments of heresy. Allegiance not inter- fered with by excommunication or interdict. 350 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. lOth January, 1854. Eev. Henry Neville. Priests do not swear their belief in those canons of Lateran that assert temporal power to the Church. cause is “ subjection,” wliicli is signified l)v the word “ luiinile.” Hence, sons can commu- nicate with excommunicated parents, soldiers with excommunicated generals, stihjects with excommunicated ])rinces, servants with excommunicated masters, and this by virtue of the canon law.” It will be remarked that this is no ]>articular ojanion, l)ut that it is one of the five exce})tions to the ])rohibition of civil society allowed by the law itself — a recognised principle of the canon law. 125. And that ja-incijde would be considei’ed as implicitly governing all the general declarations contained in the bulls? — Yes; the ja'ohibition of civil society is set down as one of the effects of excommunication, the cases to which it extends are set forth in the line, “ Os, orare, vale, communio, nicnsa negatur;” and the exceptions simihudy, and with the same authority, as follows: “ Utile, lex, humile, res ignorata, necesse.” So that there is exactly the same sanction for the exceptions, as for the effect itself resulting from major excommunication. 12G. Then excommunication does not dissolve legal obligations, according to the civil law of the country ? — It dissolves no legal obligations between masters and servants, subjects and princes, Ac. 127. They would stand by virtue of the second exception, would they not? — No; that is understood to be the law or contract of matrimo}iy. With regard to interdict, it can have nothing at all to do with the allegiance due between the sidiject and the sovereign, because interdict does not in^■olve the prohibition of social intercourse. 12S. In reference to that j)assage in the priest’s oath that is contained in the 11th clause, “ 1 likewise iindoid)tedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declai’ed by the sacred canons and general councils, and ])articularly by the Holy Council of Ti’ent ; and I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church has condemned, rejected, and anathematized” — it has been stated to the Com- missioners that the Council of Trent ado])ts the third and fourth Councils of Lateran. What do you conceive to be the extent of the ])riest’s obligation with reference to the third and fourth Councils of Lateran? — In virtue of the oath sworn by the priest on receiving a parish, in clause 11 of the creed of Pope Pius the Fourth, he solemnly accepts, and professes his faith in those councils only that are general ; and, as the Council of Trent is amongst the most important of those councils, and is also the latest, it comes to be expressly named in the declaration. Now, if the third or fourth Coiincils of Lateran, in those canons in which they assert the temporal power of the Pope, have not been accej)ted as general by the Clmrch, they are entirely beside the sulject of the priest’s oath; but those canons have not been accepted as canons of a general council by the Church; and it is well to remark here, that a mere opinion about a council’s being general does not prove it to be such; it must be universally, and without exception, received by the Church as a general council * Those canons in question have never been received as of a general council by the Church. As to the adoption ot the 4th Lateran Council by Council of Trent, the latter does cite the Lateran Councils 3d and 4th on seven occasions, but the present canon is never referred to. 129. General councils are not binding except as they relate to faith and morals? — Faith and morals, and general discijFne. 130. Are the Ckmimissioners to understand that the third canon of the fourth Lateran Council is not binding as the canon of a general cotincil ? — That is distinctly to be understood.j- 131. Is not Cabassutius the text-book on canon law in the College of Maynooth? — No, not at present; the text-book is Devoti. 132. How lou£x has that been the class-book?—! think it must have been for the last twenty years. 133. But Cabassutius is a class-book, is it not ? — It was formerly, but it has been found not to be sufficiently full, and Devoti has been substituteil for it. 134. Are the canons which relate to the ecclesiastical ])Ower operating upon heretics in force in Ireland ? — Those canons are not in force in Ireland, nor can they be looked upon any where as canons of a general council. 135. Are the canons of the third and fourth Councils of Lateran, or of either of them, which relate to the interference with the tenq)oral jiower of the sovereign, ])iit in force in Ireland? — Thev are not in force in Ireland, nor are they to be looked u])on as the canons of a general council ; for it can ha])])en that a council may in one part of its session be general, because it has a sufficient number of bishops to represent the universal Church, and because it has been accej)ted by the Church univei\sally, or formally confirmed by the Pope, and yet, in another ]iart of its duration it may bo a mere particadar council, either because it has not a sufficient number of bishoj)s, or because matters have not been conducted, ns they say, con- ciliariter, or it has not been acceptc'd by the Church, or confirmed by the Po]>e. 13(5. Are those canons included in what the Council of Trent adoj)ts? — Those are certainly not included in anv decrees of the Council of Lateran, ado])tcd by the Council of Trent. 137. Are they included in the oath of the jn'iest, by which he ado])ts the Council of Trent? — Not being the canons of a general council themselves, nor adojited into the general Council of Trent, thev cannot, therefore, fall under the matter of the oath of the priest. * See Delahogue'.s “ De Ecclesia,” page Kio, where, after stating the conditions essential to a general council to be three, n.amely, that it be General “ Convrco as canons of a general council? - I have already stilted that three conditions are rei[uiivd to constitute a council general. If, then, a council, or any part of a conncil, he defeient in any or all of these, such council, or part of council is not general. Now it would he inipo.ssihlc for any, e.xcept those alive at the time, to he assured immediately of the presence of those conditions, hence we can know the ecumenicity of Lateral!, or, indeed, of any other conncil, only through a medium: the medium is the acceptation of the council as general hy the Church. The decrees in ipiestiou liave never been so received. 13D. It has been stated to the Commissioners that Liguori, which has been said to be a book of reference in aynooth, volnme 1, page lOf, “De Legibus,” contains this passage, “ The Pontifcal laws oblige the faithful, though only jiromulgated at Home;” and this was cited fir the purpose of showing that the decrees ot Hojies are binding on tlie faithful? — This is a question on which theologians are divided. The Ultranioiitane school hold that the Papal laws, by the fact of being jiublished at Home, bind the whole Catholic world. The Gallican theologians, on the contrary, assert that, in order that the Papal laws should bind in any particular country, they require express promulgation in that country. The latter is the opinion held in our class-books, for Avhich 1 refer the Commissioners to Hailly on Laws (Lyons, 1833), marked volume (5, jiage 351, where, to the ([uestion Avhether ecclesi- astical laws made by the Pontiff, or by councils, bind before they are published in the jiarti- cular provinces, he answers, that, “Ecclesiastical laws, even those made by the Pontiff in matters that regard disci])line, do not bind before that they have been published in each province.” He then subjoins his -reasons, wliicli it is not necessary to enter into. The doctrine expressed in Bailly is the one held and taught by the Theological Professors of Maynooth, and generally adopted by the bishops in this country. Dr. Doyle and Dr. Miirray, in their evidence before the blouse of Commons, in accordance with this opinion, stilted that the C(eme Avas ueA'er receiA'ed in these countries. 140. Are you UAwai’e of the publication in Ireland of a volume professing to be the 8th Amlume of Dens? — Yes 141. That has also the title of “The moral and canonical doctrine of Benedict the XIV.”? — It contains an epitome from the Avorks of Benedict XIV., \arious constitutions :ind ency- clical letters of pontiffs, and selections from the Avork “Synodus Dioemsana” of Benedict XIV. 142. Are you aAvare that the imblication of that volume is sanctioned by several of the bisho]is of the Homan Catholic Church in this country? — I do not believe that any s})eci:d sanction has been gDen to the Theology of Dens published in any shape in this country. No theological Avork can be published Avithout some sanction, at least permissiA'e, from the bishops ; but still you cannot hold the bishops, Avho permissively or even positively sanction the publication of a Avork, responsible for all the opinions expressed in such Avork. Besides the publication of that A'olume Avas obAdously the act of an editor Avho Avished to supply a deficiency in the Avork he Avas publishing, and not a promulgation by the bishops of a neAv code of canon laAV. The latter hypothesis is not only uiiAvarranted, but is even jilainly impossible, for a promulgation Avithout being notified to be such, is a manifest contradiction, Avhereas the first is the declared object of the publication. I cite the preface of the pulilisher to the reader. “ There ax’e many things appertaining to moral theology and canon hiAv, disseminated through the golden Avorks of Benedict XIV., Avhich it Avould be a disgrace to a theologian to be ignorant of; therefore, AA'e feel that Ave ai'e doing a thing most acceptable to the reader in annexing the compendium of those Avorks maile by Mansi, as it is impossible for many to reach his entii'e Avorks.” This is the substance of the preface, and it corn’eys the object of the publication of this eighth Amluine so clearly and so reasonably, that it is ridiculous to hunt out ulterior motAes, Avhich must be purely imaginary. 143. Then has any publication that has taken place in that eighth volume of Dens given a new force or authority to the bulls alluded to in that volume, Avhich they did not possess before in this country? — No ncAv force has been acquired for these bulls in Ireland by the publication Ave are speaking of, no change has resulted from it ; and the most satisfactory proof that no change has been made, that a neAV canon laAv has not been introduced into this country, is, that our ecclesiastical regulations are exactly the same as before the year 1832, and this they could not be, in case any ucav canon hiAV had been introduced tlu’ough the publication of the eighth A'olume of Dens’ Theology. 144. There is no neAV bull noAV in force by A'irtue of this special publication A\diich Avas not in force before that period? — No; nor could there be: it is not a canonical jiromulgation. A publisher is not the authority to promulgate a hiAv, neither is the pulilication of it as a matter of science, sufficient promulgation for a laAv that is understood to require acceptation. Ecclesiastical laAA'S should be promulgated in ProA'incial or Diocesan Synod, or if such mode be inconvenient, notified authoritatiA’ely to the parish priests, and published by them accord- ing to the nature or exigency of particular enactments. 145. There might be a special proAosion in the bull for its promulgation in a special man- ner, might there not? — Yes, as AAns made Avith regard to publishing tlie law of clandestinity, in the Council of Trent, on account of which it required promulgation in each parish. 146. Would the mere publication in a book, either by the permissAe or expressed sanction of the bishop, of a bull, amount to a promulgation or acceptance of that bull in that diocese? — It most certainly Avould not, so as to giA^e it the authority of a laAV binding in that diocese. It might be accepted as the private opinion and wish of the bishop, but it could not be taken as a binding laAv. 10(/i January, 185‘1 sT Rev. Henry Neville Divided opinions of theologians about the binding of pon- tifical lUAVS. Dens’ theology not made a means of introducing ncAV^ canon law. o52 M AY NOOTI I COM.M 1 SSI OX. lOJ/i ■Tiimiiirif, 38. Rev. Ifeiirv Neville. Oath of allcjj'i.inee made to hcrelic valid. K.xplanalion of one of causes iin[)cdiiig' obligation of an oath. J47. Yon lioM that the Bulla Coenoi derives no force ■\vliatever from the mention of it in the j)nl)lishe(l edition of Dens, tlionoh tliat jmblieation received the sanction ol the bisho})S? — It derives no force from its introduction into the ]aiblislied edition of Dens. The censures or inhahilities enacted by it, have never been observed v ith ns before or since 1S;52. Indeed it is liard to see lunv a bull v ho.se vearly ])nl)lication was sns]>ended in 1773 bv Clement XIV.. as a concession to princes, and never resinned since (see Ilenrion edition of Bercastel, chaji. hd), can be asserted to be l)indinted as a conference book in some dioceses, for convenience sake, because it was lery well arranged, and the subjects were treated in catechetical form. 14ower in the Chnrch ca])able of relaxing the oath of allegiance to any lawful sovereign ; because in order to relax the oath, the obligation of allegiance itself should be I’elaxed; and as there is no power to relax the second, there is no ]>ower to irritate the first. 17)0. What do yon mean by the ex})ression “ lawful sovereign”? — The person in quiet possession of the kingdom for the time being. 151 The sovereign de facto to whom the oath of allegiance has lieen taken? — Yes; and in quiet possession. 152. AVill yon refer to the passage at page 120 and 121, in which a reference is made to the seventh cause of excusing from the obligation of an oath, and in which the expres- sion occurs salvo jure alieno" ■, what is the meaning of that ]artner.shij) between them ; and it snp])oses that the ])arty so connected Avith the right of another cannot make an oath against the right of that other ])arty without the other ])arty's consent; and ivliether he expressly state this condition or not, that the condition is, ex natura rei, implieil in the oath. The manifest reason of this is, that an oath cannot he de re illicita, and it Avoidd he de re illicita should a person SAvear to do a thing Avhich he could not do A\ ithont A-lolating the right ])ossessed by another. 153. Does that apply to the case Avhere the^^fw alienum is kept secret from the ])erson to AAhom the oath is made? — It Avill ap])ly eA'en AA'here the third party is, Avhen making the oath, unaAA'are of the right of the other ; but he Avill not be bound to limit his oath until he discoA'ers the right of the other as having existed jirevionsly to his oath. For instance, if a ])erson sAA’ear to giA'e a considerable sum of money to another, thinking, at the time, that he AA'as equal to meeting all his debts ; — if he discoA'ers aftei’AA’ards that before he made that oath his ])ro])erty Avas not equal to meeting all his debts, he Avonld be then bound, in the first ])lace, to })ay ins laAvfnl debts, and Avonhl not be bound to giAe the money Avhich he promised to the other, though he SAvore it, because he could not do it justly, he could not do it Avith- ont A-iolating a duty to his creditors, and injuring the prior right aaIucIi they possessed. 154. Su])|)ose the case of a ]>arty taking an oath, knoAving the restriction in the right of the third person, Avhich is kept secret from the person to Avhom the oath is taken ? — In that case, the |)arty making the oath to another aa'Iio accepts it, and accejjts it in ignorance of the pre-existing right of the party making that oath, is bound to the person to Avhom he makes it, not l)v \irtne of the oath, for his oath is in that re.spect restricted, but by A'irtne of the obligation of fidelity, because he |)racti.ses a grieA'ous deceit, Avhich he is bound to repair. 155. Yon AA'onld consider it false and contrary to morality to take an oath Avhen a person AA'as so circumstanced? — I Avonld look upon it as contrary to truth, and, in many instances, contrary to justice. It might be contrary to justice, because it might pretend to confer a right on the other party, in order to acquire some consideration in return, to Avliich conside- ration, in the circumstances, no title Avould exist. MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 35:5 l')(). It would 1)0 a sin in it^olt' to |)r('toii(l to suhjoct yourself to an oMi^ation when you were fully aware that you were not eaj)able of enterino' into it hy reason of any ineai)aeity at the tiiue? — Ves. l')7. (’an you illustrate the ohlipition towards another which ca)inot he violateil hy an oath, hy any reference to the rehition of parent and child ':' — A very apt illustration occurs in the Hook of Numhers, oOth chii])ter. It is this ; a father has the rii>ht of irritating the vows or oaths made hy his unmarried daughter, as long as she is living in the house with him, ])rovideart of the Gospels of St. iMatthew and St. John, the Ei>istles of St. Paul, the E])istle of St. James, and some other of the Catholic Epistles, together with a ])ortion of the Book of Genesis. This forms the matter for catechetical instruction. Then, in my jn'elections, besides (luestions connected with the camm of Scripture, and the like, I treat particularly of the history and contents, Ac. of the different books of the Old Testament, and whatever special difficidties occur in each. From the manner in which we deal with the Scripture text, dwelling upon every sentence and every word, leaving no single difficulty of any kind untouched, and from the limited time allotted to the Scripture Class — but two hours and a-half weekly — it would be impossible to go over more of the text than we do. 7. Do you think that cour.se is the best to pursue for the purpose of conducting that class? — I think it the only course by which students can obtain a complete and thorough know- ledge of the Holy Scriptures. 8. Is that a mode which you have ado]ited at your own discretion, or is it one which is prescribed by the rules of the C'ollege? — I cannot say whether this course is made binding upon me l)y any rule of the College, but it is the course which has been followed from the earliest times. 9. That is the coiirse adojhed in most other colleges, is it not? — Yes; to the best of my belief, in all other colleges. 10. Is there any thing which makes it reciuisite In the College com’se that each Divinity Student shall have gone throngh the Holy Scriptures? — Each Divinity Student mmst read during his last three Divinity years those portions of the Scripture which I have mentioned ; he is also hound to answer at the general examinations in those general expositions of the Old Testament Scriptures Avhich 1 have just alluded to as forming the matter of some of my lectures. Besides this, in the Di^■inity Classes are discussed all the texts of both the New and Old Testament which bear upon any point of doctrine. 11. So that they would be naturally led to refer to the original for the purpose of A'crify- iug the texts? — Ccrtainlv; and not merely to verify the texts, but to discover their true meaning from the context. They could not fully develop the passage without such reference. 12. Thev are at perfect liberty to read the Sacred Scripture as a devotional book, are they not? — Yes, certainly; they are exhorted to do so. 13. Do vou think that in the College of IMaynooth, there is as good a course of Sacred Scri])tnre as the time will admit of? — I am perfectly convinced of it. 14. In fact as good as in any ecclesiastical college? — As good as in any, and better than in most. 15. How long were you j)rofessor in the Irish College in Paris? — For three years and three months. IG. Are vou acquainted with the studies ])ursued at St Sulpice? — But slightly. 17. What are the numbers in the Irish College at Paris ; are they very numerous? — There are eightv-three free ]>laces at present; the number of students average from ninety to ninety-five. 18. What nund)cr pass out of it annually : Avhat is the length of the course ? — The conq)lete course there is six years. 19. Do they come in at an earlier age there than in Maynootli? — The average age is, I should say. about the same. 20. Ibne they there to do in six years, Avhat is done at IMaynooth in eight years.-' — ^ cs. * Mr. Gillie did not live to correct liis evidence, vliich w.ns lield over during liis long illness, in expectation of Ids recovery, anil accordingly afipears out of its proper ]daee. It is the general feeling of the College that his early death deprived the institution of a teacher of great promise. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 357 2^1. Is tlie same system pursued there, that of each year hciii (x devoted to a separate hrauch of study, so that tlie students pass successively from one study to auotlua’ without carrying on two or three l)raiudies of study at the same time? — Yes; as fir as the principal hranclics of studies are concerned, hut tlien there are collateral branches whicdi are pursued at the same time with the others. Thus, too'cther with classics and philosophy, they study the English and French languages; during the divinity years they read Scripture, history, t'tc., just as students of iVIaynooth ('ollege do. d'hey pass from year to year through the ditlerent jirimary branches of study which comjiose their course. ' 2 ' 2 . Are they jiretty much the same hooks which are employed at the Irish College as at IMayuooth? — Pretty much the same. :23. d’he same class-books? — In the Humanity Class, they read very nearly the same classical authors as are read in the Humanity ('lass at Maynooth. They do not, however, read the higher authors whiidi students of our Uhetoric Class read. In moral jihilosophy Bouvier has been the class-book used for some A'ears. When teaching natural jdiilosophy in that College, I found the jirescribed class-book (|uite u.seless for my jiurpose, and used instead my own written lectures. In the Divinity Classes, Badly was formerly the text-book for dogmatic as well as moral theology; since the condemnation, at Rome, of that author, they have adopted another, and not the same as that adopted at IMaynooth. In Canon Law the same treatise is used as at .Maynooth. In addition to those class-books, the students consult some of those used by Maynooth students; when I say some, 1 don’t mean to say they reject any, but merely that their reading is much less extensive in general, than that of the students of M aynooth ('ollege. 24. From your observation, should you .say that the Irish students in Paris were of a different class of society from tho.se at IMavnooth? — No; very much the same. 25. Would it he desirable that the professors should write class-books for their students? — It would be very desirable that the jirofessors of theology should do so. 2(). Would it not be rather too heavy a task for the professor of Sacred Scripture? — Rather heavy for a young ])rofessor. 27. Do you think that having in view the writing of a class-book at a future period woidd in the meantime impede or assist a jirofessor in his lectures? — I think the lectures of a pro- fessor who has such an object in view, and directs his coiu’se of reailing and study towards the carrying out of this intention, must naturally be ex])ected to be, ca-teriH paribus, more solid and learned, and every way more valuable than those of a ])rofessor who reads and studies merely for the course of lectures he is delivering. AVith regard to the actual writing of class-books by the professors of theology, I think such an uiulertaking would be much too laborious, while the present system of two theological lectures of an hour each is con- tinued. If the system were changed, so as to ])ermit of each divinity ])rofessor giving but one lecture a-day to two classes united, then these jirofessors would have amjile time to Avrite clas.s-hooks ; and the Avriting of these books Avould, I am conAanced, so far from impeding them, A^ery much assist them in their lectures. 28. Do you find the Scripture Class so large as to be incouA’cnient? — The only incon- A^enience I find to arise from the large number is, that I am able to interrogate each student but once during the acaflemical year. 29. AVould not the same objection a]>])ly if you enlarged the theological classes, AA'hich you Avould do liy the arrangement you have just projiosed? — No. In the first jdace the Theolo- gical Class Avould not be nearly so large as the Scrijiture Class, as the Scrijiture Class contains three of the ordinary divinity classes, aa hile each of the contemplated classes Avould contain but tAvo. Then again, each professor of theology Avould lecture four or fiA'e times Aveekly, Avhilst the Scripture Class is held but tAvice a-Aveek. Besides, if the examinations Avere made more trying tests than they ai’o of the ]iroficiency of a student, they Avould more than make up for the feAvness of the calls during the year. For this it Avould be sufficient to increase the time allotted to each student, and to liaA’e a properly constituted court of examiners for the examination of each class. 30. AVhat is your opinion Avith regard to the number of examinations in a year? AVould it be desirable to haA'e them increased to four or three from tAvo? — I cannot giA-e a deliberate opinion upon that jioint just uoav. I do not see that any advantage Avould arise fi’om such a change. 31. Would it not remoA-e the incoiu'enience arising from being unable to make so many calls during the year? — Of course it Avould; but I think it Avould giA-e rise to others not less serious. Four examinations during the rear, together Avith time alloAved to prepare for each, and a short recess after, Avould take u]i a good deal of time, and this time should be deducted from the time actually deA’oted to class lectures. Aly pi’esent opinion is, that the inconvenience Ave speak of Avould be sufficiently, and much better remedied, by tAvo exami- nations properly conducted. 32. Can you suggest any cure for the incouA-enience you haA-e mentioned, the likelihood of a student forgetting his Greek before he came to be taught the Bible by you? — Yes; in one of my AA-ritten ansAvers I sjioke of the expediency of obliging a certain portion of the divinity students to study the (ireek text of the Sacred Scriptures. 33. Hoav Avould Amu fix on the jirojiortion ? — I Avould fix it by making attendance on a class of Biblical Greek a necessary qualification for the Dunboyne Establishment. • 34. That Avould operate u])on a considerable number, Avould it not? — Yes, directly on twenty-fiA’e or thirty, and indii’ectly on more in each divinity class. 35. Would it not be desirable that they should be able to read the Greek Fathers, or to refer to them occasionally? — Decidedly. 36. Do you think it is doubtful in the third year of a divinity student Avhether he Avill be 6th October, 1653. Rev. L. Gillie. l)e.?irable that pro- fessors should write class-books. Proposed change in Divinity Classes. Examinations. Biblical Greek. 358 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. 6lex Expositio Epistolarnm Sti. Paidi.” lie gives an analysis of each (;hapter, a paraphrase of the text, and a short bnt pithy commentary. It is an excellent book for students. 55. What treatise of Mandnit do you use? — Princijially his analy.sis of the Gospels, and of the Epistles of St. Paul ; a short commentary, accompanied by lengthened dissertations on the ])i’incipal passages. 5(). What is the Avork of Calmet? — It is a commentary on the Bible, Avith dissertations, {)ublished originally in French, in tAventy-three volumes (piarto. It Avas afterA\-ards trans- lated into Latin, by Mansi. 57. Is it npon the Old Testament as Avell as the NeAv? — Upon all the books of the Old and NeAv Testaments. 58. Bonfrerius? — lie is the author of a learned Avork on the 'ProJerjonicna. lie also Avrote a highly esteemed commentary on the Pentateuch ; also commentaries on other books of Scri])ture, some of AA'liich have not been printed. 59. What AAwiters do you chiefly refer to on the prolegomena? — My instructions on the prolegomena of Scripture are delivered in the form of set lectures. I do not folloAV any AA'i’iters in particular, but AAdien I find any thing particularly useful to the students in any writer, or a remarkable opinion held, I refer to the author, and quote his statement.* 60. Would it be advdsable to liaA^e an examination at the commencement of the year, after the return of the students? — It Avould not; it Avoidd be much too hard upon the students to oblige them to such an examination. Their A’acations should then be spent in stiidy. 61. It appears that your class is principally composed of Dunbojme shidents? — The HebreAV Class is. 62. Are they all required to study IlebreAV ? — If a Dunboyne student has not read HebrcAV during his ordinary course, he must read it for tAvo years in my class. If he has read IlebreAV for one year, he is bound to gi\^e one year’s attendance during his Dunboyne course. 63. Is a knoAvledge of HebreAV recpiisite as a preliminary step to the Dunboyne Estab- lishment? — No. 64. In AA'hich case the attendance npon your lectures is compulsory? — Yes, in the case of Dunboyne students avIio haA*e not read two years in the HebrcAV Class. 65. Are there any students Avho pursue the study of the learned languages in private reading, as a matter of literary accomplishment, irrespecti\"e of Avhat is reqnii'ed for the duties of their class ? — I knoAV that, during my student course, some did pursue this study ; I have no means of judging AA’hether there be any at present aa'Iio do so. 66. At Maynooth, do any of the students pursue priA\ate studies of their OAvn? — When I Avas a student, some did ; aa hether they do so noAv I cannot say. 67. You are aAA^are of the proAusion made in the Statutes, requiring that the Dunbo}"ne students should take some part in assisting the professors in instructing the pupils? — Yes. 68. That proAusion of the Statiites is not complied Avith? — It is, in this Avay : Avhen a pro- fessor is unable, from sickness or other causes, to attend his class, he appoints a Dunboyne student to take his ])lace. MHieii I aa^as a DunboAUie student I Avas almost constantly lectur- ing in the classes. The Statute rule is cai’ried out only so far. 69. The Statute proA'ides tAvo things — first, AAdiat you have mentioned, and secondly, that they are at all times to question the pupils concerning the subject to be discussed? — Yes. The second proA’ision is not carried out. 70. Are you of opinion that that proAusion of the Statutes might be put into effect Avith advantage to the Dunboyne students? — ^I thhdc it might; I do not think it advisable, hoAV- ever, that a Dunboyne student should continue to discharge the duties of lecturer during the entire of his three years’ course, for he Avould in that case deriA^e no benefit fi’om the course of studies pursued on the Dunboyne Establishment. I am of opinion that lectureships might be Avith adA'antage established, tenable for one year only. 71. Do you think that they might be employed in assisting any of the junior classes in the acquisition of languages ? — I Avould not say that they could be effectiA^ely employed imder the present system. If there Avere a neAv arrangement by Avhich the students AA'ould be obliged to retain and improve their knoAvledge of the languages, then they might. 72. In other Avords, you do not think the Dmiboyne students are competent? — I do not think them competent to gi\-e lectures in the languages, and at the same time to attend to their theological studies. Were they to gUe their Avhole time to the employment of lecturing in the languages, I do not think they AA’ould all be found incapable. 73. Do you think it A^ery imjAortant that there should be CA’cry encouragement giA'en to raising up a class of men in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, distinguished for leai’ning as Avell as general ability? — I think it of the \’ery greatest importance. The Dunboyne Establishment was instituted for that purpose. 74. Do you think it is of importance that the professors should be called in more upon all occasions of change in the College regulations ? — I think so. * The authors enumerated above are mentioned as being in common use among the students in their private study ; they are not set down as being exclusively referred to by the professor in his lectures. 6t/i October, 1833. Kev. L. Gillie. Study of Hebrew by Dunboyne students. Provision of Statutes as to employment of Dunboyne students in teaching. 360 MAYXOOTII COM.MISSION. Gth Oclobtr, 185o. Rev. L. Gillie. Entrance Examination. Intercourse between I)rofessors and students. Doctrine as to spiritual and tempo- ral power. 75. Is it possible now, according to the j)ruct!ce, that a regulation miglit he made afiectino- the studies of the College, witliout the professors’ j/revious knowledge of the intention to propose such a chaiiQ-e? — There couhl be no such change effected by anv authority in the College. 76. lly the Trustees, I mean?— I think it po.ssible. 77. The Trustees, at their meetings, are not of nece.ssity brought into contact with the pro- fessors indiyi dually? — Not necessarily. When the Board is held in the College, the Trustees generally lodge in the College, and dine at the professors’ table, but when the Board is held in Dublin, the Trustees have no necessary intercourse with the professors. 76. They are not brought officially into connexion with them in the other case? — They arc neyer brought officially into connexion with the professors, except when a case occurs that renders it necessary. 70. ddiey are not asked whether they haye suggestions to make? — No. 60. Are you frequently called in at the Entrance Examinations '? — Yes ; I frequently attend them. The usual course is, that the President announces at breakfast that there isa'student to be examined during the day, then any pi’ofessor who wishes attends. 8L Three are bound to attend, are they not? — Three form a quorum. &2. There is no obligation upon you to attend? — The St;itutes impose no obligation. 83. Do you think it desirable to giye a little more solennnty to the admission of a. student? — I think so. At jiresent, although there is frequently a considerable number of examiners in attendance, there are sometimes yery few — sometimes but three. 84. Is there any great entrance day, in fact? — Yes; the 25th of August, and the days following. 85. The great majority enter then? — Yes; I should think about eighty entered at the last general examinations. 86. Are they examined at set hours in tlie day? — Yes; there are sessions held at fixed Lours during the day. 87. Are the entrance candidates all examined durijig the entire of the session? — But one candidate is examined at a time. 88. In the jiresence of the others? — No; they are called in one by one. 81b lie is disposed of, and has no more trouble? — No more. hO. Would it be better to haye them all called in, passing the questions from one to another? — I do not see just now that that would be an improyement. Dl. In mentioning the books to wdiich you haye referred in your lectures, Menochiusand others, you do not consider yourself bound by any of the ojanions expressed in these books’'* -No. 1)2. Is there any class-book in the house? — IMenochius, I understand, is the class-book authorized by the Board, but I haye no certain knoAvledge of the fact. 1)3. You do not hold yoiirself boiind by the obsen ations or the interpretations to be found in any one ])articular commentator? — No; I am bound to hold and teach Catholic doctrine, but I am not bound by the o])inions of any ])erson. 94. In reference to the College at Paris, are all the students educated there intended for the Irish Church? — All who asjjire to the jaaesthood are intended for the Irish Clmrch exclusiyely. It is possible that students may enjoy burses, and ])ursue their studies in that College, with the expressed intention of not entering u])on the ecclesiastical state. There were t^yo or three cases of that kind whilst I was professor there. 95. From your ex})eriencc as a student at Maynooth, do you conceiye that the ju’ofessors eyer considered it a ]>art of their duty to interfere with the care or conduct of the students out of their class? — No ; if they saw any gross yiolation of a rule, they might, perhaj)s, interlere, but they do not consider it as }jart of their business. 96. Therefore the intercourse between the students and ]>rofessors is yery slight, except in their classes? — Very slight, indeed; it scarcely exists at all. 97. That is a matter Avhich is considered to belong entirely to the deans, the President, and the Vice-President, is it not? — Yes. 98. Will you briefly state, from your experience as a student, haying, in fact, receiyed lectures for seyen years in theology, and as a lecturer, what doctrine is taught at Maynooth respecting the ciyil and temporal power of the Pope and the Church? — The doctrine taught is, that neither the Poj)e nor the Church has any temporal ])ower whatsoeyer, jure divino. 99. And that under no apparent adyantage to the Church would no temporal interference be permitted? — No; under none would the exercise of any temporal ])ower be tolerated. 100. In matters wdiere the temporal interests of the Church are indirectly inyolyed, is it taiight that a priest has the power to interfere with the laity anthoritatiyely ? — No; he can, by moral guidance, that is, by explaining to them what they should do, and so on, but he has no anthoritatiye influence whatsoeyer in matters temporal. 101. Is it taught that a layman, who, on such an occasion, eyen erroneously differs with his priest, and acts according to his own judgment, is perfectly free from sin? — Certainly. 102. If any departure from these yiews should appear in the conduct of indiyiduals, Avould that arise from any thing taught in the course of instruction at hlaynooth? — Certainly not; so far as the instruction giyen there is concerned, it is entirely against such a i)roceeding. 103. Then such a course of conduct w'onld proceed from something connected with the feelings of the indiVduals themselyes, or from some influence extrinsic of the College alto- gether? — Yes. 104. There is no examination at the entrance course, into the proficiency of the persons entering in Enghsh, is there? — No. ANSWERS TO RArER K. 3G1 lOf) They are not tried hy coiu])osition, or l>y translation in writing? — No. 10(). Are yon aware tliat some of‘ the students entering are not as proficient in Knglislias is desiralile? — I think so. 107. Do yon think tliat it would he desirable to make composition in English a test at entrance? — Very much so. 108. You wish that the impi'ovement in a preliminary knowleilge of the Engli.sh language should he made, rather by raising the standard of instruction received by the students before they come to Maynooth, than that time should be occuihed In communicating such instruc- tion when they enter Alaynooth? — Yes; but I would not exclude such instruction from Maynooth. 109. If there was a more strict preliminarv examination In an English coui’se it would preiiare them better for their subseipient instruction, would it not? — Yes. 110. Would it be desirable that a library should be formed for the junior students, of the best English works? — Yes. 111. There is no library to which they can have recourse now? — I do not know, now; when 1 w'as a student there was a very scanty library, to which the students were allowed access on every rainy Wednesday, when there w'cre no walks. 112. Do you think it desirable that such a library should be established, and the students allowed to road the l)ooks belonging to it in their rooms; a lending library? — I am not pre- pared to give an opinion upon tliat; I have not reflected uiion it, Init I think that a library should be established for them, whether it be a lending library or not. \_The Witness withdrew^ 6th Octoher, ISo.S. 39? Kev. L. Gillie. Library for junior classes. ANSWERS OF THEOLOGICAL PROFESSORS TO QUESTIONS IN PAPER K. Answers of the llev. John O’IIanlon, d.d., Prefect of the Dunboyne Establishment, and Liibrarian, to the Questions in Paper Iv. 1. What doctrine is taught by you ou the subject of an oath jiledged to, or a contract made with a heretic by a Homan Catholic; whether it is of equal validity and equal obli- gation with an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a Roman Catholic in the same matter ? The doctrine taught by me, is that an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a heretic by a Roman Catholic, is of equal validity and of equal obligation with an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a Roman Catholic in the same matter. 2. Whether the doctrine is still taught in Maynooth College, which is found in a note appended to the evidence of Rev. Dr. Slevin, in the Appendix to the Eighth Report of the Commissioners of Irish Education Enquiry, p. 222, to wit : — The spiritual compulsion of which the Pope speaks, and the physical coercion employed by the laws in some countries against heretics, both regard a state of things when one or more would attempt to intro- duce hereby, and form a sect in a purely Catholic country. This ajipears evidently from the Pope’s words quoted above (in his Bull ‘Ad turn inanus,’ dated August 8, 1748. and addressed to the Primate, Archbishops, and Bishops of Poland), in which he distinctly states, that comprdsion of any sort cannot he employed, ivhen they are tolerated by the laws. It is not fair, therefore, to wrest a law, or an observation, that regards only heretics who are disturbers of social order, and endeavour to apply it to Protestants incorporated into a nation, or forming a sect tolerated by the laws?” The doctrine expressed in the extract from Dr. Slevin’s evidence is partly correct, and so far, it is still taught in Maynooth ; it is partly incorrect, and so far, it has never been taugbt in Maynooth, or in any other Catholic College. Dr. Slevin correctly teaches, that the laws which employed physical coercion against heretics, never applied to such as were incorpo- rated into a nation or tolerated by the State. He is also correct in stating, that the Church does not. in point of fact, compel such heretics, even by spiritual puuisbments, to embrace the Catholic faith. But Dr. Slevin is wrong in asserting, as he plainly does, that the Church does not possess the absolute power to compel by spiritual means, every descrip- tion of heretics, to return to the communion of the C'atholic Church, and he is wrong in imputing this assertion to Benedict XIV. The utmost he is warranted to infer from Bene- dict XIV. is, that, consistently with a received and established usage, heretics tolerated by the State cannot, even by spiritual penalties, be compelled to profess the Catholic faith. Benedict XIV. has never affirmed that the Church was absolutely tied down to this usage. 3. What is the doctrine taught in IMaynooth upon the question, whether the Pope can decide as to the right or duty of revolt against the civil power, so as to bind the consciences of Roman Catholics? The doctrine taught in jMaynooth is that the Pope has no authority to decide as to the right or duty of revolt against the civil power of these realms, so as to bind the consciences of Roman Catholics. 4. Do you teach, or how do you deal with those chapters in the course of moral theology, which treat of the duties of the married state ? What is the class-book or house treatise in use in Maynooth College on these subjects ? 1. In teaching those chapters in the course of moral theology, which regard the duties of the married state, I have invariably confined the attention of the students to a few leading principles, of which, I deemed, the knowledge to be absolutely necessary for the purpose 3 a Ukv. .T. O'TIa.vlon, D.D. O.aths and contrarts between Koinan Catliolics and here tics. Coercion oi liereticf. Limitation of Itr. Slevin's doctrine. Aiitliority of the Pope as to tlie right or duty of revolt against the civil power. Mode of treating subjects relating to the state of marriage. 362 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. Rev. J. O’IIanlon, 1) I) Duty of allegiance, l.ow inculcated. Provisions of statutes as to class-books and subjects of study, how carried out. Intercourse between professors and students. of enabling them to under.stan(l other important portions of the class-hook, and to discharge their duties hereafter on the mission : and if I have any scruple as to the manner in which I performed my duty in this particular, it arises from a fear that 1 have done little more than indicate the sources from which they might, when tliey become priests, derive such information as tlie due ])erformance of their sacred functions may require. The apprehen- sions entertained by some individual.s, that even general instructions on such subjects must necessarily contribute to demoralise our students, are utterly groundless. Abstracting alto- gether from the unanswerable argument which might he deduced from the Divine institution of confession, to prove the necessity and consequently the lawfulness of imparting such instructions to candidates for the priesthood, it is, to say the least, excessive jiresumption, to deciy and condemn, as having a direct and necessary tendency to corrupt the human heart, a practice not peculiar to iMaynooth, hut common to all the Catholic Ecclesiastical Colleges throughout the universe, and sanctioned, recommended, and enforced hy multitudes of men of tlie most eminent jiiety and sanctity. Instructions on the duties of the married state would, no doubt, prove dangerous and fatal to the virtue of those who should receive them without reasonable cause, or from improper motives, or who should neglect to take the precautions which religion prescribes. But experience proves, that they are attended with no had result to those who, like our students, are compelled to seek them, hy a neces- sity arising from the very nature of the sacred ministry — who, like our students, receive them for a legitimate, important, and beneficial purpose, and who, like our students, are taught to strengthen and fortify, by prayer and other pious exercises, their natural inhrmity, and to regard and abhor, as a soul-destroying sin. any wilful or deliberate complacency in an im- pure thought. “ Omnia nuindis munda.” 2. The class-book on those subjects, is Scavini’s Treatise on Marriage. 5. In what manner do the professors, who lecture in dogmatic theology, execute the provision of the Statutes, c. 5, s. 3 :— •* Let the Professor of Dogmatic Theology strenuously exert himself to impress on his class, that the allegiance which they owe to the Boyal Majesty cannot he relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever?” In what way is this doctrine speciHcally inculcated ? The Professors of Theology, when it becomes their duty to explain either the nature and extent of the Pope's ]>ower, as laid down in the treatise of the Church, or the obliga- tions of subjects, as specified in the treatise on laws, never, to my knowledge, fail to impress dee[)ly on the minds of the students, that no ecclesiastical pow’er on eartli can relax or annul the allegiance which they owe to the Boyal Majesty. 1 must add, however, that for all practical purposes, with the sole exception of that of complying with the provision of the statutes, the inculcation of this truth by the Professor's of Theology, is a most superfluous task. For, I am pursuaded that there is not a single student in Maynooth who requires the insti uction of Iris professor to he convinced of tire absolute indispensahility of the duty of allegiance. 6. In what manner are the provisions of the Statute, c. 5, s. 2, carried into effect? — “ Let the course of theology for the year he arranged at a previous deliberation by the President, Vice-President, Theological Professors, Counsel being previously entered into, scil. the heads of sacred science to he explained, the authors to he used, the hooks to he consulted ; hut if the jn’ofossor shall, hy his own industry, have compiled any portion of this cour-^e of instruction, we oi'dor that such should he submitted to the same Council, and a decision he waited for ? ” Is it the practice for the professors to submit treatises of their own compilation to such a Council, and how' is the decision given ? Are there any house treatises in moi'al as in dogmatic theology ? and if not, why not ? 1. The provisions of the Statute, chap. 5, sec. 2, are not carried into effect. 2. It is not the practice for the professors, to submit treatises of their own composition to the Council. 3. There are house treatises in moral as well as in dogmatic theology. 7. In what manner are the provisions of the Statute, c. 5, s. 4, carried into effect : — “ All the masters being convened by the President, and the Council being unanimous, let tablets he drawn up, setting forth the subject matter and order of instruction, the authors required and adairted to the several classes; and let these tablets, unless changed hy the Trustees, serve as received formularies ? ” Is it the practice for the authors required and adapted to the several classes to he submitted to the Council of the President and masters, and their unanimous approval to be taken before the tablets are drawn up and adopted as formularies ? The provisions of the Statute, chap. 5. sec. 4, are not carried into effect. The disuse into which the aforesaid Statutes have flillen. may, 1 think, in a great degree he attributed to a regulation of the Trustees in tlie year 1 836, hy which the several treatises to he read during each year of the theological course were determined and prescribed. 8. In what manner do the professors mingle with the students out of lecture ? Do they exercise any formal authority over them ? In what mode are they enabled to secure that their pupils shall he modest and docile ? Have they any opportunities of directing their conduct hy their example in the refectory, the prayer-halls, the public walks, and during the hours of recreation ? and if not, might such opportunities he offered with advantage to the students, and without inconvenience to the professors ? 1. The professors do not usually mingle with the students out of lecture. 2. Out of lecture they exercise no formal authority over them. 3. Counsel and reprimand are the only proximate means they have for securing the modesty and docility of their pupils. If these means should prove ineffectual, the ANSWERS TO PAREli K. 363 misconduct of tlio student is reported to the I’resident, who possesses sufficiently ample j. o’IIani.on, power to bring liiiu to a sense of his duty. During the twenty-live years which 1 liavo spent as a professor in Mayuooth, 1 have never had an occasion to report any student for tlie want of modesty or docility. 4. They have no opportunities of directing the conduct of the students hy their examjile in the refectory, ])rayer-halls, juihlic walks, or during the hours of recreation. It is tlie duty of the deans, exclusively, to associate with the students during the hours of recrea- tion, and to direct their conduct in the refectory, prayer-halls, &c. 5. I have doubts whether such opjiortunities might he oll'ered with advantage to the students, and I am of opinion, that in so large a community as that of Maynooth College, such a mingling with the students, as the ipiestion contemplates, would he attended with inconvenience to the professors, who, if they attend their classes jmnctuallv, and prepare themselves properly for their lectures, will he found to have little time for intercourse with any description of persons. Besides, the Trustees are wise and experienced men, and as they have approved of the jiresent system, 1 should he unwilling, without very cogent reasons, to disturb it. Answers of the Rev. P. Murr.\y, d.d.. Professor of the First Class of Theology, to the Kev. r. ju uhay, Questions in J’aper K. •> "■ 1. What doctrine is taught hy you on the subject of an oath jdedged to, or a contract Qckstion l. o«//,s made with a heretic by a Roman Catholic; whether it is of equal validity and equal obli- contrar/s hHiieen gation with an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a Roman Catholic in the same others! " matter ? A. The doctrine alwavs held and taught hy me is, that an oath pledged to. or a contract Answer. made w’ith a heretic or any other person, w’hether baptized or unbaptized, is of eipial validity and equal obligation with an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a Roman Catholic in the same matter. Moreover, 1 hold this not as a private opinion, not as a doctrine that appears to me more probable, but which others are free to reject 1 hold it as absolutely certain, the opposite of which no theologian is at liberty to maintain.* I know of no theologian who holds the contrary: 1 do not recollect to have seen any theologian quoted by any of our writers as holding the contrary. f 2. Whether the doctrine is still taught in Maynooth College, which is found in a note Question 11. Coer- appended to the evidence of Rev. Dr. Slevin, in the Appendix to the Eighth Report of the <\f heretics. Commi.ssioners of Irish Education Enquiry p. 221, to wit: — “The sjiiritual compulsion of which the Pope speaks, and the physical coercion employed liy the laws in some countries against heretics, both regard a state of things when one or more wmuld attempt to intro- duce heresy, and form a sect in a purely Catholic country. This appears evidently from the Pope’s words quoted above (in his Bull ‘Ad titas maims’ dated August 8, 1748, and addressed to the Primate, Archbishops, and Bishops of Poland), in which he distinctly states, that compulsion of any sort cannot he employed, when they are tolerated by the laws. It is not fair, therefore, to wrest a law, or an observation, that regards only heretics who are disturbers of social order, and endeavour to fipply it to Protestants incor])orated into a nation, or forming a sect tolerated by the laws ?” A. Whatever may have been the species of coercion alluded to in the particular case to Answer. which the Pope refers, and whatever therefore may be the force of the argument drawn from the Papal constitution hy Dr. Slevin in support of his general statement,^ I entirely • I take leave to transcribe the argument of Becanns. a writer chiefly known to Protestants tlirongh liis Analogy of the Old and New Testament: — “ Obligatio pacti sen nmtiioe proniissionis oritur ex triplici virtute, nenipe veritatis, fidelitatis, et justitia;. Et quidein virtus veritatis ad lioc obiigat, ut sincere non flctc proniiitas, id est, ut quod verbo promittis etiam ammo promittas, ne mendax sis. Virtus fidelitatis ad hoc obligat, ut opere prsestes quod promissum est, ne perfidus sis. Virtus justitiaj ad hoc ol)!igat, ut alteri cum quo pactus es tril)uas jus suum, quod illi debetur ratione ]iacti seu mutu® proinissionis, ne inju.'tus seu injuriosus sis. At h® virtutes »que te obligant, sive apud Catholicos sive apiid li®reticos verseris. Nusquam enini licet mentiri, nusquam perfidum esse, nusquam jus alterius violare seu injuriam facere. Et sane si seinel concedercs h;cc ideo licite fieri quia h»retico mentiris. haeretico perfidus es, lisretico injuriam facis ; (piidni consequenter concedas licerc tibi liKreticum occidere. furto res ejus auferre, odio eum prosequi? Qus omnia absurda sunt, et divinse legi repugnantia.” — Becanus, danuale Co.itruversiarnm, L. 4, c l.i. t Since the above was written, I find, on throwing my eye over Dr. Slevin’s evidence, (which I had never read before,) that, about .100 years ago. tliere flourished in Spain a certain bisliop named Simanca. Tins bisliop was connected in some way with tlie Inquisition of that country, and held, or seems to have held, or is stated to have held, that faith is not to be kept with heretics. Whether he really advanced such immoral doctrine, I do not think it worth while to examine. T)r. Slevin states that he was, for his learning and merits, successively promoted to two bishoprics. He may have been a very good man ; for some good men have held very bad opinions. That he was a zealous inquisitor, I am not at all prepared to question; but 1 sliould protest against being held responsible for the pernicious opinions of Bishop Simanca any more than for the pernicious conduct of Bishoji Hatto. I As the Papal constitution is expressly referred to in the question, 1 think it right to state my opinion on the meaning of the particular passage from which Dr. Slevin draws his inference ; but, as I do not think that the doctrine taught by me on the punishment of heretics (which is plainl}- what the Commissioners wish to elicit) depends on the interpretation of the aforesaid passage, 1 state my opinion in a note. I have read attentively the constitution of Benedict XIV. referred to, and I must frankly confess that I can not determine clearly whether the coercion spoken of in it is of a jmrely spiritual nature, or a physical coercion enforced by the law of Poland at that period. The history and drift of the constitution. Ad tuas manus, are briefly as follows. It appears from a previous constitution, Maynce nobis, addressed to the Polish bishops on the 29th of June, 1748, that an authentic state- ment had been forwarded to the Pope, informing him that certain ecclesiastical authorities in Poland had, in virtue of a supposed lieenee derived from the Holy See, claimed and exercised the right of dispensing in certain matrimonial impediments, in favour of parties not belonging to the Church. The Pope immediately addressed the Polish bishops in the aforesaid constitution. May/up nobis, in which, among other things, he informs them that no such Papal licence had been given ; that the dispensing power actually conferred regarded only the members of the Roman Catholic Church. A few weeks later, (August 8,) the same Pope, Benedict XIV., addressed a second letter. Ad tuas manus, to the same bishops, in the commencement of which he 3 a 2 Reasoning of Becanus on above Question. Tenor of BuUs. 364 MAVNOOTTI COMMISSION’. Itev. P. Murray, D.D. Sect. I. Spiritual punishment of heresy. Excommunication. (irievousness of sin of lieresy according to lloniau Catholics, J\ rUiiacih/ required for sin of heresy. Conditions of this ertinacity. agree in the doctrine of that statement, so far as 1 gather it from the note and from the course of the oral answering to which the note was subsequently a])ponded. To avoid, however, all ambiguity, it were perhaps better to explain my own views in my own way. The punisliment or coercion to which a heretic may be subjected is twofold — spiritual and temporal. Section 1. — Spiritual Punishment. T>y spiritual punishment is here principally understood excommunication. I. Kxcommunication cannot be inflicted except for a grievous sin. The sin, moreover, must be not only committed by a deliberate internal act of the will, but also manifested by some external act — i. e. the sin must be both external and internal. II. Our Church has always looked on heresy as a most grievous sin, not only because it is, like every other mortal sin, a grievous offence against God, as being a formal and deli- berate rejection of bis revealed truth sufficiently proposed, Imt also because it is directly 0 ])posed to, and utterly destructive of the virtue of divine faith, which we believe to be the “ root and foundation of all justification.” This is our fixed and sure doctrine ; and 1 should look upon myself as guilty of prevarication if 1 attempted to soften it down or explain it away. By a universal law of the Church, the penalty of excommunication is attached to the sin of heresy, and is incurred ipso facto. III. But it must be the sin of heresy. To incur the excommunication, I must be a heretic in the eyes of God, otherwise I do not incur it. Now, a man may hold a heretical doctrine without being a heretic ; because, for the sin of liere.sy. it is absolutclv required, not only tliat the doctrine held be heretical, but that it be held with pertinacitii . “ x\ll admit,” says Cardinal de Lugo, “ that pertinacity is required in order that any one should he a heretic and be called such.”* According to a still higher autliority, the Catechism of the Council of Trent, “a man is not to be called a heretic for having erred in fiiith, but only when, setting aside the authority of the Church, he maintains the impious doctrines vdth a pertinacious mind.”t IV. In order that a man should be guilty of this pertinacity, three conditions are required : First, that the authority of the Church should be sufficiently proposed to him ; that is, that he should have such evidence, proof, ground of belief that the Homan Catholic Church is the true Church, and has supreme authority in teaching and defining, as should oblige him to submit to her authority. t Secondly, that the actual doctrine or definition of tlie Church should be projiosed to him; that is, that be sliould have sufficient ground for believing that such or such doctrine is defined, such or such errors condemned by the Church. § These two conditions being supposed ex parte intellectus (as our theologians phrase it), it is required, thirdly, ex parte voluntatis, that be deliberately reject tlie autho- rity of the Church so proposed to him, or deny that such or such doctrine is defined, having had the aforesaid ground for knowing that it is defined, or simply reject the doctrine so defined, or embrace the error so condemned. If any one of these three conditions be wanting, the man is not a heretic. Hence, if the authority of the Church be sufliciently proposed to him, or — as in the case of a Catholic — if he actually believes in it, but be is ignorant that such or such a doctrine has been condemned, be is not a heretic for holding it. Again, if the fiict of the condemnation has been sufficiently jiroposed to bim, but not tbe autliority of the Church, he is not a heretic. Again, if both the authority and the definition are sufficiently proposed, but he does not deliberately oppose bimself to either, he is not a heretic. If his ignorance be grievously culpable, he is guilty of a grievous sin explicitly mentions the fact on which the complaint previonsly forwanletl to him had been grounded, namely, that a certain Polish hi-hop had dispensed in the imi)ediinent of affinity, between a Lutheran man and a Lutheran woman, assuming hi.s right to do so on the ground of general Papal faculties enjoyed bj' bishops living at a great distance from Rome, and on the ground of an old custom in his diocese. '1 he hishop, more- over, assigned as a motive for the e.xercise of his su])poscd authority in this individual case, that a promise had been given, or some hopes held out by the parties, that they would soon embrace the Catholic faith, and that he (the bishoj>) had power to compel them to do so, and power to separate them {quoad thorun et meusam) if they failed to comply within a given period. Tlie words are — “ Addit etiam [Episcopus] ad id faciendum adductum fuisse spe, iiuam ipsi dederunt conjuges, quam primum ad fldem Catholicam se conversuras; quod si intra debituni tempus minime adimplerent, se ri eos adii/endi. cohabitatione prohibita. j>.itest.atem habere.” 't'he Pope proceeds, in the coui-.^-e of his letter, to animadvert on the several grounds of justification alleged by the tiishop, and coming to the last ])oint he says— “ It is added in reply, finally, that if the heretical couple fail in the fulfilment of their engagement, they will be punished sharply, and prohibited from cohabiting. We are well aware of the distinction that exists between an infidel and a heretic; and that the former can not be compelled [co;/i non po.s.'ie] to embrace the Catholic faith, to which he did not bind himself by baptism, while a heretic, who has received baptism, is in an opposite position [e diverso haroticum, qiii jam baptismum suscepif. But we know not whether it be the usage and custom that heretics may be constrained [^constriupi po.'isinf] to profess the Catholic truth in those countries in which the princes allow them to live mixed with Catholics, and to enjoy the same legal rights and civil usages.” Now whether the Pope speaks of sjiiritual or of physical compulsion here, or of both, depends on the question, what species of compulsion the bishop spoke of. This again depends on the question, whetiier the civil laws of Poland invested, or rather whether this bishop alleged that they invested, the prelates of that kingdom with authority to use physical coercion in the ease under consideration ; for, most certainly, they pos.sessed no such autlioriiy tliere, or any where else, unless so far as the law of the land may have given it to them. These questions 1 have no means of answering. I would regret to differ from the opinion of the able and learned Dr. Slevin ; but looking to the mere text of the Pope’s letter, (which is all I have to guide me), I would somewhat incline to the opinion that he spoke of physical coercion. But, as I have already intimated, whatever interpretation may be given to the passage, it is of no consequence in resolving the main question. » De Fide, D. 20, n. 154. t “ Non enim ut quisque primum in fide peccarit, haereticus dicendus est; sed qui ecclesi* auctoritate neglecta impias opiniones pertinaci ammo tuetur.” — Pars I , c. 10, q. 1 . j “ Notitia ergo sufficiens [authoritatis ecclesi®] est ilia per quam ita proponitur ecclesioe authoritasut obliget hominem ad credendum et ipsam es.se veram ccclesiain et veram esse doctrinam quai ex cathedra docetur.” — SuARKz, De Fide, 19, s. .3, n. 14. § Suarez, ibii.. Lugo, n. 32. AXSWEliS TO rAPER K. 305 in lioltliii" tl)C liorotical doctrine; but be is not guilty of tbe specific sin of heresy, and, tlierefore, does not incur the sentence of excoinnmnication launclied against tliat sin.* V. All ba])tized persons, wbetber Catholics or Protestants, who are guilty of tlie sin of heresy, incur this excoinnmnication ; hut here there are one or two important things to he noted. In the first place, it is by no means certain that all Protestants are heretics. The Church has not, so far as 1 know, issued any definition whatever on the matter; hut it appears to me to ho the common opinion, certainly among those theologians and canonists wlio.se opportunities of observation, from their residence in countries more or less Protest- ant, stamp their decision witli greater weight, that immense numbers are not only free from the .guilt of lieresy. hut even in a state of invincible, and therefore inculpable igno- rance. For my own part, 1 am, alter long and thoughtful consideration of the question, decidedly of opinion that, at least in those countries where Pi'otestantism is the ]»revailing religion, or where it has been for several generations estalilislied among a distinct religious party, the great mass of Protestants are free from the sin of heresy, and even in a state of invincible ignorance. I may he allowed to cite a few passages from some of the writers alluded to. Reilfenstuel, one of the most celebrated perhaps the most celebrated — of our canonists, tlius states his opinion : — “ There are many such material heretiesf in the mass of heretical societies [fa vu/osed to the Roman Catholic Church, in the case wherein that ignorance arises from sini])licity or want of .suf- ficient information, or in the case wherein they do not believe it to he the true Church, hut rather, from evil, lying, and false information, think it to he a false Church, and, on the other hand, believe their own religion and Church to he true, which is the fact regarding many in the aforesaid mass, as we have already taught, from iNlastrius and others, in our Moral Tlieolofj}/.”l So, also, Schmalzgrueher, another eminent canonist : — “ In Ger- many and other northern provinces .... there are innumerable of them innimie- rabiles ex illis , only material heretics.”§ So, also, Adam Tanner, a German divine, who lived upwards of two hundred years ago, and was very eminent in his day : — “ Even among heretics and schismatics many simple persons may he excused from the sin of unbelief, inasmucli as they trust their elders and pastors, and do not yet sufficiently see that they are in error.” So also Patrick Sporer, another celebrated German divine, who wrote towards the close of the seventeenth century : — “• The first class of material heretics are Christians who (whether othenvise professing the true Catholic faith, or belonging to a false and heretical sect) assent to any error against a truth of faith, through ignorance or mistake entirely invincible and inculpable ; who are, therefore, guiltless, not only of the particular crime of heresy, but of any sin against faith, and wlio, if they commit no other sin, are saved. There are many such, especially of the uncultivated classes ..... among heretics; i'or all who are validly baptized, Avhether by Cattiolics or heretics, and are aftenvards educated and constantly living among heretics or unbelievers, where they hear nothing at all of the Catholic religion, or only hear it refuted, derided, and blasphemed, or only hear absurd misrepresentations of it — as, e. g. that the Pope is Antichrist, the Beast; that he is an idol, and adored as God; such persons labour under invincible igno- rance of the true faith. They retain the habit of faith,*!) which is only lost by an act of formal unbelief. Then tliey believe, with a divine and supernatural faith, those truths, which they hold in common with us — such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the other mysteries of the creed. Assuredlv, unless they commit some other sin, they can by no means be excluded i'rom salvation. \_Certe, nisi aliunde peccent a salute exclndi minime possunt.]”** 1 could add a large number of distinguished theologians holding the same opinion more or less strongly and clearly, Ij but it is unnecessary to quote farther. 1 see * This is the conmion doctrine of our theologians. Tlie Salamanca divines pronounce it certain — Salman- TiCENCES, dc Ceusur is, c. 4, n. £0. t “ Heresy is divided into material axv'i formal It is material (which, however, is not to he reckoned among iieresies properly so called) when any one errs in faith, not with an evil mind or from pertinacity, but irom simjtlicily or v/ant of proper information. ” — IvEirFENSTOEi,, loco injra citando, n. I'i. Toruial heresy, or heresy properly so called, is heresy maintained with pertinacitj'. as explained above. t Keiffenstcel, Jus Canonicum, ^c. Lib. 5, Tit. 7, n. 13. Tins work was first published npwardsot 150ytarsago. I quote from a recent edition, published in Koine (163I~3), with tbe imjirimatur ot the Master of the Sacred Palace, and the Pope’s Vicegerent. § ScHMAEZGittiEBEii in L. o, Dccret. T. 7, n. 120. I quote from a folio edition of 172'. I have heard this work, too, has been lately reprinted in Kome, and, of course, with the usual ecclesiastical sanction. II Tanser, de Fide, Q. 6, n, 10. (Oper. Torn. 3, page 438). ^By the habit of faith is meant the virtue of faith which is infused into the soul by God, is inherent and abiding there, and facilitates and prompts to the performance of particular acts of faith. This habit is always infused in baptism. Sanctifying grace is lost by the commission of any mort.il sin, but the habit of faith is not destroyed except by a mortal sin against laith itself. 'J'his (to non-theological readers) somewhat obscure phraseology mtiy, I think, be made very plain by an illus- tration draw n from natural habits. Take two ineii, one of whom has been for years a regular and assiduous stu- dent, the other engaged in pursuits of pleasure and ainusenient. The latter would ieelthe greatest difficulty in a sustained conceiUration of his mind on any subject of study, the i'ormer would feel the very opposite. Kow, the mind of the former must have got some quality, bent— call it what you w ill, it must be something real — w hich the mind of the latter has not. This we call habtt. Katural habits are acquired by repeated acts ; supernatural habits (like that of divine faith) are infused or poured into the soul by the operation of divine grace. ** Sporer, Tract. 2, c. 3, n 14. tt The following, of different schools and different orders — Thoniists, Scotists, Jesuits, Dominicans, &c. — I have either examined myself, or find quoted by trustworthy authority, as for the opinion: — Vasquez, Peter Soto, Victoria, Vega, Mastrius, La Croix, Herincx, Terillus, Gobat, I). Not certain tliat all I’rotestants are here- tics. Witness's opinion. Coiifinncd hy tesli- moni of eminent Ko- man Catholic divines. References to testi- monies. Meaning of habit of faith. Illustration. 366 MAYXOOTii COMMISSION. Rkv. P. Murray, u.i>. In what way Pro- testants excom- municated. Sect. 2 Temporal punishment of heresy. General chanpfe of opinion regarding it. Opinions of modern Protestant writers. Inex])ediency, intrin- sic and accidental. the renowned Caramnel quoted for the opposite o])inion, hut I have never, in the course of my reading, met a single writer of high repute on that side. In truth, I liold that all children validly baptized, in any professing Christian church whatever, though externally and apparently members of the religious community in which tliey continue to live, are not only not heretics, hut in reality, and coram Da, members of our Church* ; that is, as I of course believe, of the one true Ciiurch of Christ, until such time as they are guilty of an act of deliberate formal heresy — a time wliich, as we liave seen, may for so many of them never arrive. vr. When a society or societies of Protestants are already formed and established, as. for e.xample, in these countries, no personal excommunication {ecccornmunicatio ah honnue, as it is called) is ever fulminated against tliem individually or collectively. Such of them as are guilty of the crime of heresy are, as has been already said, excommunicated ipso facto ;t that is, they are prohibited the active and passive use of our sacraments ; or, in other words, they are prohibited to administer or receive any of them ; they are cut off from a participation in certain spiritual favours and indulgences of which the Church has the dis- posal ; they cannot become bishops or parish priests in our Church. &c., &c. Even an additional excommunication ah homine would produce no further privations. Now, how terrible soever these penalties may ap]>ear in the eyes of a Roman Catholic, who believes them to be real, I rather fancy that it would not be felt as a ver^ great hardship by a Pro- testant, lay or clerical, that he could not put himself in the position of getting the Seven Penitential Psalms for a penance, or of being addressed as P.P., &c., &c. Section 2 Temporal Punishment. I. “ Persecution for religious heterodo.xy, in all itsdegrees, was,” says Mr. Hallam.t “ in the sixteenth century, the principle as well as the ])ractice of every Church No state powerful enough to restrain its sectaries from the exercise of their se[)arate worship had any scruples about the right and obligation to do so.” The practice has certainly changed very decidedly on all sides, else 1, instead of expounding theology so calmly and good-humouredly to her ^Majesty’s Commissioners, from the cloisters of a Royal College in Ireland, might Im at this moment employed in pouring the full tide” of an embittered heart, and barbing the tale of present and past oppression against the Government of England, from some narrow cell in a continental seminary. The principle, too, has become at lea.st disreputable. They who still hold it are, in general, not willing to avow it boldly and in its naked form. It is let out in mutterings and whisperings ; like lovers’ vows and l>ase coin, it is uttered only in darkness and the shade. But there are some, among both Protestants and Roman Catholics, who still maintain the “ pure, unmixed, dephlegmated. defecated,” doctrine of persecution. The fires that have long ceased to burn in fcmitlifield and IMadrid still glow with sup- pressed but undiminished fury in the bosoms of a few, wliom the devouring element would seem to serve as substitute for a human heart. If we have the far-famed Peter Dens, in Belgium, a hundred years ago, maintaining the right to persecute, wo have the late Mr. Palmer maintaining the same right, not twelve years ago, in England ; and in a book which has, I believe, received a wuder circulation than has, in the same length of time, fallen to the lot of any other Protestant work written in a similar dry, argumentative form, and on the same subject. “ In accordance,” he writes, “ with the principle involved in these laws [the penal laws enacted in the reigns of Elizabeth and Charles II.], and in the articles and canons of the Church of England, I maintain firmly that the State has a right, when necessary, to oblige the members of the Church, by temporal penalties, to submit to her ordinances, and neither to establish a different worship, nor teach different doctrines from hers.”§ ir. The sentiments of Archbishop MTiately are directly opposite to those of IMr. Palmer. I had prepared an analysis of them ; but. to treat them fairly, they should he given fully, and this would extend the present paper to an inconvenient length. He appears to be, in the main, for full toleration of all “ argumentative maintainers even of the most erro- neous opinions.” ' Mr. Macaulay is clearly of the same opinion.lf in. Mr. George Cornewall Lewis, a writer who, to varied and extensive learning, unites a degree of philosophic calmness and fair-mindedness rarely equalled, and never surpassed — maintains the general proposition (in which 1 fully agree with him) that it is the right and duty of the State to promote religious truth. Tliere are many ways of doing this, one of which is, the repression of religious error by temporal punisliments. Viewing the matter in the abstract, Mr. Lewis is clearly of opinion that it is the riglit and duty of the State to use this means ; but, viewing it in the concrete, he is as clearly against reli- gious persecution, on the ground of its inherent and universal inexpediency.** * Some may, perhaps, look on this as a piece of “Papal aggression” of a very wholesale description, but, I should hope, not of a very hostile character. t Even here there maybe exceptional cases. Our theologians teach that if a man, though guilty of the crime to the commission of which excommunication is attached, yet be invincibly ignorant of the fact that excommu- nication is so attached, he does not incur it. { IJterature of Europe, part .1, ch. 2, n .oO. (frd edit.) § Treatise on the CViwrc/i, part 5, ch. 8. Qird edit.) Coleridge holds, substantialh'. the same opinion as Palmer, See his Table Talk, .January 3,1834. I See his Rhetoric, Preface, p. xiii, xiv (fth edit.); Errors of Romanism, Essay 5, sect. 6 (fnd edit.). Essays on Some of the Dangers, &c.. Essay 3, note E, (Isterfit.), &c., &c. ^ Ess.ays, p. 113, and passim. ** Influence of Authority, &c., ch. 9, sec 2, &c. The Edinburgh Review (vol. 91, p. .549) combats Mr. Lewis’s reasoning, and substitutes for it an argument of its own, in the principle of which I cannot concur. There is a twofold inexpediency. First, there is the inherent or intrinsic inexpediency, which results from the sanction of the doctrine in any case, even when, considering the particular case by itself, no inconvenience arises from its application in that case. In other words, allow the doctrine to be acted on in any one case, and it is sure to be abused in other cases. Here the doctrine is intrinsically inexpedient. We have an example in the ANSWERS TO PAPER K. 3G7 IV. Lord Campbell, in the introduction to a speech delivered hy him, when he was Attorney-Oeneral, at a prosecution for l)lasphemy, says — ‘‘ I entertain no doubt, that there are occasions when the civil ma,c;istrate not only may, hut is hound to interfere to chock the circulation of publications wliich assail the foundations of morality, or vilify the national reh,!;ion.” Again, in the speech itself, ho says — “ As the law now stands, there can he no doubt, that to assail witli ohlo(juy, and to insult the Holy Scriptures of the Old and Now d'estament, which we believe to contain the revealed will of God, is a crime for which punishment may and ought to he inflicted. There are two grounds on which it seems to me, that such an act may properly he made the subject of ]>enal visitation. In the first place it wounds and shocks the feelings of those who are entitled to the protection of the law, not only for their ])crsons and property, hut for every thing belonging to them wliich contributes to their comfort and enjoyment. However, the great mischief of this act arises from its tendency to dissolve the foundations of moral obligation, on which society rests. The vast hulk of the jiopulatiou in this country believe that morality depends entirely on revelation ; and if a doubt could he raised among them that the Ten Commandments were given by God from Mount Sinai, men would think they were at liherfy to steal, and women would consider themselves absolved from the restraints of chastity. A jiuhlication openly exciting to theft or licentiousness would surely he a fit subject for prosecution, and so must he any other jiuhlication of a similar tendency. The civil magistrate is not to inter- fere with private opinion, or with philosophical speculation ; hut he is called upon to repress what directly leads to crime, as much as to punish crime when actually committed.”* There are other passages to the same effect in the reply. V. The preceding may, 1 think, he taken as fair representatives of the different shades of contemporaneous English Protestant opinion, among those who address themselves to the subject in a theological or philosophical spirit.f What I conceive to he the doctrine of our modern theologians will appear hereafter. Mr. Hallam. in the extract given above, has pretty fairly represented the ojiinion of former times on all sides. Now', as to my own doctrine. VI. First : Doctrines levelled against the stability of government, the reverence and obedience due to the sovereign authority and to the laws, the rights of property, and the like, are not only sins against God, hut civil crimes. The state has a right to put down the publication of them, whether through speech or 'writing, by the infliction of temporal punishments; and on the same principle on which it is justified in using the sword against ■foreign aggression— the right of self-ilefence. Nay, the right is per se stronger, at least the duty may he more iinjjerative in the former than in the latter case. For foreign conquest, as such, onl^' destroys national independence, and the internal and substantial prosperity of the people may continue as before, or even advance — thougli this is not commonly the case, at least for a time, and until after the amalgamation of races : whereas communist and other anarchical doctrines, if allowed to take -wide and deep root, poison the very life-blood of society and ■work its utter dissolution, with all the unspeakable evils that are included therein. VII. But two things are to he noted here. 1°. The doctrines should really liave the character and tendency mentioned above. 2°. The question of expediency should he w'ell •weighed. Will more good than evil follow from punishing ? W^ere it not better to let this hraw'ler wear out liis worthless lungs or cry himself into solitude, or to let this scrihliler write himself into ridicule or contempt’? Will not persecution lift him to the very notoriety lie is looking after, crown his brow' with the wreatli of a bastard martyrdom, and fill his pockets w’ith the contributions of sympathizing dupes? &c., &c., &c. VIII. Secoiidljf : I extend the same rule, and for the same reason, to all doctrines leading to gross violations of the moral virtues, or attacking the great truths of natural religion. As to the former, I do not understand how there can he any difference among reasonable men, except as to the question of degree, or the question of expediency.! As to the latter, I am decidedly of opinion that the State has a right to put down, e. g., open Atheism by temporal penalties.S; IX. To the latter part of the preceding doctrine it has been objected, that it leads, logi- cally, to the sanction of persecution for all religious errors. 1 answer — first, inculpable ignorance cannot he pleaded in favour of the Atheist, as it may in favour of him w’ho rejects doctrines known only from revelation, and received matter of theft. Theologians are afTrcetl that, in a case of extreme distress (/n extrema necessifale'), where there is imminent danger of death from starvation, I can take so much of my neighbour's property as will enable me to save my life. But in a. case of merely severe distress (in pravi necessitate') the same liberty is not allowed ; becau.se, as such distress or want is so common in many or most places, as it can be so easily feigned, &c., cS-c., the licence would be sure to be abused, would tend to the general encouragement of theft, and the general insecurity of property. Secondly, there is the extrinsic or accidental inexpediency, words which require no defi- nition to make them clearer. Suppose a law, in itself excellent, and in its general operation highly beneficial ; but a particular case occurs, where great evil, without any compensating good, will ensue from pressing the law. Here is a case of accidental inexpediency. Now (.abstracting from, or supposing, the soundness of the doctrine of religious persecution), it might be fairly held that, .at the present day, considering the mixture and balance of religious parties— considering the force of opinion — the constitution, the h.abits, the ideas of modern European society, the doctrine is inherently inexpedient, though, at a former period, it was only accidentally, if at all inexpedient. ■* Speeches of Lord Ctimpbell, pp. 50.3, 50.5. t I put aside altogether the theories and the reasonings of avowed infidels, and also the rhapsodies of some mere men of letters, .and of writers or talkers for the passing hour and the present purpose, their crudities de- serving no more serious notice than the Treatise on Chinese Met.aphysics bj' Mr. Potts’s critic. J See Su.vuEZ. de Lepibus, L. 3, c. 12. § The reasoning of Dr. 'Whately on the other side (^Errors, &c., Essay 5, s. 6) appears to me inconclusive. The penalty is not inflicted as a test of the individual’s belief, but as a punishment for his external and criminal profession. Eev. P. Mdurat, D.I). Doctrine of witness on temporal punish- ment of heresy. 3G8 MAY:sOOTJI COYIMISSIOX. Rev. I’. ^^UIU!AY, I) i>. Doctor Den'. His averty robbery — the only difference being in the deei)er liorror with which tlie human mind instinctively i-ecoils from Atlieisin. It is true that an Atheist may be a very good citizen; hut, ju.st as a communist may respect his neighbour s ])roperty, tlie advocate for a communitv of wives may adhere faithfully to one, or the advocate for “the sacred right of insurrection” may live all his days a peaceable and loyal subject. Nevertheless, e.xpediency is to be consulted here as in the preceding case. X. Thirdly: All sane men admit that the supreme power may be, on grounds of expediency, not only justified, but even bound to tolerate and invest with civil privileges, like the rest of the community, a sect which it believes to be false. Not only is it the right, but the duty of the State to jirotect the religious worship as well as the members of such sect from insult, oppression, or annoyance of any kind. 1 do not mean that the State is bound to act in every case. Here again comes in the consideration of expediency — the great rule of governments, whether ecclesiastical or civil, in all matters that are not fixed by higher and immutable laws. Suppose a number of Protestant fanatics to get placards carried about the streets of Dublin, pasted on the walls, and thrust into the hands of passers by. containing virulent abuse of our religion, ringing changes on idolatry. Antichrist, &c. Suppose, on the other hand, a number of Homan Catholic fanatics to foul the thoroughfares of London with placards equally scurrilous and offensive on the other side. To me it appears clearly within the jn'ovince of the civil power to ])unish both parties with equal rigour — and this altogether irrespective of the religion of the government, or its belief as to the truth or falsehood of either religion thus assailed. I hold that a Catholic government having Protestant subjects shovdd protect them from such aggression, just as strongly as 1 hold that a Protestant government should protect its Catholic subjects. XI. Fourthly : When heresy does not involve opposition to government and law ; when it does not, either of its own nature or from the lawless and seditious manner in which it is jiropounded. lead to the invasion of individual or general rights, or to any real disturbance of social order ; when, in short, the principles of the heretical party do not prevent tliem from being loyal subjects and good citizens, like the rest of the community — then 1 hold that the civil power has no right to inflict temporal penalties of any kind on the professors of the heretical doctrine. In other words, the punishment of heresy, us heresy, does not fall within the province of the civil magistrate. XII. I am not called upon to prove, but only to state and explain my doctrine. The arguments for this last assertion are of a twofold kind, positive and negative — the latter consisting in a refutation of the arguments on the other side It would be too long to enter fully into either class of proofs; but, as the name and authority of Dens have been, for the last twenty years, so incessantly and pertinaciously obtruded upon us — as if he were a I ’ope addressing the whole Church ex cathedra, or a second Council of Trent — the Commissioners will be good enough to allow me space for a very reply to his arguments. 'I'he proposition laid down by him is, that Heretics are justly punishable with death. First Ary ument : “ P>ecause forgers of money, or other disturbers of the rejiublic, are justly ])unished with death; therefore also heretics, vvho are forgers of the faith, and, as experience testifies, grievously disturb the republic.”t Answer: 1“. Forgery is not punishable with death, if a lesser punishment he suffi- cient to prevent the crime. Neither is every disturbance of the State punishable with death. t 2". I’orgery and disturbance of the State are civil crimes ; not so heresy. Otherwise the civil magistrate could punish unbaptized persons for holding heretical doctrines. 3". •• ileretics are forgers of the faith.” But faith is not money. One belongs to things that are not of this world; the other is essentially of this world. One belongs to the supernatural order, to the order of grace ; the other to the natural order ; two orders so totally different, that an argument from the operations, laws, &c., of one, is utterly incon- clusive as to those of the other. 4°. “ Heretics, as experience testifies, grievously disturb the republic.” Whoever disturbs the State deserves punishment, whether he be a heretic or a Catholic. But that lieretics. whenever they can be so, are seditious and rebellious, is an assertion of fact quite in keeping with the logic that accompanies it, and with the proposition it is brought to sustain. Second argument : “ Because God, in the Old Testament, ordered false projihets to be put to death ; and, Deut. xvii. 1 2, it is ordained, that ‘ He who is proud, and unwilling to obey the command of the priest, shall die.’ ” Answer : These and numerous other sins were, under the Old Law, not only sins against God. but civil crimes.§ Without going to higher Avorks, 1 take the following from Arch- bishop Dixon’s recently published Introduction to the Sacred Scriptures. “ This was the ♦ Atlieists would, of course, deny this. So would red republicans, socialists, &c., deny the practical tendency of their respective systems put into operation. + I take the translation of these extracts from a work published last year, at tlie instance of several dignitaries, l.iy ami clerical. The title of the book is, “The Church of Rome Her present Moral Tlieology, Scriptural Instruction, and Canon Law.” I riiis answer does not prove that no punishment should be inflicted for heresj' ; but it proves tlie inexactness of Dens' reasoning. § The authority possessed and exercised by some prophets, in political matters of the v'ery highest moment, was immense. Thus Samuel, under the divine direction, appointed kings, changed dynasties, &c. ANSWERS TO RARER K. 800 fundamental ])rincij)le of the government estahlislied by God, through tlie ministry of Moses, viz., that God was not only to he, in a special manner, the God of the Hebrews, hut was to 1)0, moreover, their king. That is to say, lie was to exercise immediately in regard to the llel)rew nation that autliority wliich vested in ordinary kings elsewliere. This government is properly called a I'lieocracy. Amongst the Hebrews, then, idolatry was not only a crime against (iod, hut also high treason against their king. The tabernacle was to he, at the same time, the place of divine worship and the royal palace, ike.”* Third argument : “ From the condemnation ol the Nth article of John Huss, in the Council of Constance.” Answer : To cpiote and explain this article, and to go through a formal refutation of the inference drawn from it by Dens, would occupy too much space. Suffice it to say that there is no mention whatever in the article of heresy, or of any religious error; that the pro])osition is very vague and general, and the sin liable to temj)oral punishment might he at the same time a civil crime ; that several of the doctrines condemned in both Wickliff and Huss are of the most rebellious and anarchical tendency, such as, that civil and eccle- siastical magistrates lose their authority by the commission of a mortal sin, &c. ; and finally, that the heresies of the rniddl* ages were directly and formally of the most anti- social character. With the idea of heretic, in those times, was always associated the idea of rebel, incendiary, and the like. These are all the arguments advanced by Dens; and they are an epitome of the main arguments put forward by other theologians of the same way of thiidcing. XIII. But it may be said to me, as has been said to others of far higher rank in the Church than 1 am — “ This is your own private o])iuion ; or rather, you put it forward as your opinion, well knowing that it is opposed to the doctrine of your Church, which, for her own ends, allows your profession of it.” Rushing aside, with a silent movement of contempt, the latter member of the charge, I answer — 1°. If I knew or believed that the preceding doctrine was opposed to the teaching of the Church, I would, through God’s grace, cut out my tongue sooner than utter it, cut off my right hand sooner than write it down, except for the ])urpose of rejecting it. Let my proposition be submitted to the Holy See, and if the Holy See condemns it, I will not only cheerfully submit, but publish before the w'orld the condemnation, and my unre- served adhesion to it. T. I believe that, on the present point, the Church has issued uo dehnitiou whatever. I know of no such definition in the canons of any general Council, or in any Rapal bull issued ex cathedra or in any other form. 3°. “But,” it may be urged, “ the doctrine of persecution is the common opinion of your theologians, which you are not at liberty to imjmgii.” 1 answer, first, it is unques- tionably the common opinion of our old canonists. But the proper office of a canonist is to expound the law as he finds it, not to investigate principles. Then, the class of heretics contemplated by them w’ere such as I have already described. As to our theo- logians, most of those who have w’ritten in more recent times, and have fallen in my way, either omit the question altogether, or touch on it but lightly, and in passing. To ojipose the common and settled opinion of theologians is what we call rash {temerarmm), unless the opposition be grounded on some solid argument from reason or authority.f O/jinion, even common opinion, should not be confounded with defined doctrine. There are few convictions wdiich my continued theological studies have, year after year, contributed to rivet deeper and deeper into my mind, than that of the importance of keeping these two apart; of ascribing to the Church nothing but wdiat the Church really holds and teaches. 4°. Even Becanus, though practically and decidedly in favour of temporal punishment for heresy (the common opinion of his time on all sides), yet admits the principle of the doctrine maintained by me. “ In heresy,” he says, “ two things may be considered: first, that it is a sin — and this is common to it with all other sins ; secondly, that it disturbs the peace and tranquillity of the State— and this is not common to it with all, but only with some sins — such as homicide, theft, rapine, adultery, rebellion, and the like. Under the former aspect it is not punished by the magistrate ivith cajrital jmnishment ; but under the latter aspect, it is so punished, and, indeed justly.”t Then he proceeds to the old and absurd argument from the punishment inflicted on idolatry, &c., under the Old Law, &c., &c. There are two writers still living — Father Rerrone, at present and for many years back an eminent professor of dogmatic theology in the Roman College, and Di-. Francis Ratrick Kendrick, formerly professor of theology in the Seminary of Baltimore, in America, afterwards Bishop of Philadelphia, and recently promoted to the Archiepiscopal See of Baltimore. Both have published full courses of dogmatic theology. To the latter the late Rope Gregory XVI. addressed a highly complimentary letter, on receiving the first volume of the dogmatic theology, expressing, however, his regret that he had not leisure to read it. Mnsgr. Cadolini, then Secretary to the Propaganda, afterwards Cardinal, addressed another letter to the same, in which he states that he “had read through the entire of the first volume, and from that inferred the excellence of the whole w’ork.” On occasion of a theological dissertation published by Rerrone, in 1847, and dedicated to the * Vol. 2, page 28. t For authorities, see Montagne dj Censuris seu Noth Theolopicis, p. 562. t Becanu-, Mnnuale Controversiarum, L. 5, c. 17. See, also, the same principle substantially laid down by SuAUEz, de Lcyibus, L. 3, c. 11, n. 10. 3 6 II Kv. r Ml iiii.w, 1). I). Objection antici- pated. Opinion and dclincd doctrine. Contirmation of wit- ness’s doctrine by apjiroved Koman Ca- tholic divines. 370 MAYXOOTII CO-AIM ISSION. Uev. r. Ml'rkay, D.D. Heresy not essential- ly involying opposi- tion to goyeruinent, &e. IMode of controyersy rocoininendeJ by witness. Question III. Power Ilf Pope to decide on riijlit or duty of revolt. Answer. Sect. I. Practice of the Popes — in ancient times. present Pope, Pius IX., the Pontiff addressed a brief to the learned author, in which he sp 'aks in liighly laudatory terms of his previous theological productions. (Perrone’s Theo- logy had Ijoen published several years before at Koine, witli the usual ecclesiastical sanc- tions ) -\lthough those commendations are not intended to give any additional weight to the individual opinion.^ of the writers, yet we may justly presume that, on so noted a ques- tion as this, there is no doctrine e.xjiressed or plainly implied, in either of tlieir theological courses, at variance wdth the doctrine of the Holy See. Xow, though neither of these writers treats of the temporal punishment of heretics, except incidentally and in replying to objections, yet what they do say about it manifestly implies an adoption of the principle and the doctrine maintained above in my fourth assertion. Perrone says — “The tribunals of the Inquisition inquire into errors, in order to preserve the faitli uncorrupted, lest others should lie infected ; but after the process is completed, they dismiss the guilty to the secular tribunals ; and these bring them under the laws which are enacted against them. The Church lias, therefore, no connexion [nil commune] with this sort of [temporal] punishments. But lay princes have enacted those punishments against heretics, because experience has taught them that no one makes w'ar upon faith or religion who, at the same time, does not plot affuiast the State.”* -\rchbishop Kendrick, in the aforesaid first volume of his Theology, says — “ History teaches tliat civil disturbances and commotions alw'ays jireceded the severity of the laws [enacting temporal punishments for heresy] ; to these disturbances and commotions ne, therefore, justly ascribe this severity In it [a decree of the third Council of Lateran, a.d. 1179] a distinction is laid down between those who, by tlie mere [.?o/o] crime of heresy, and those who, by numerous wicked deeds, had rendered themselves obnoxious to severer penalties The protection of the Christian people against violent men, rather than a rage for persecution, w’as estab- lished by that decree. It has been always a well-known principle in the Church, that no one is to be brought to the faith bv violence. This, wdiich w'as at first understood of those who bound themselves by no religious obligation, was, on a principle of equity, ex- tended to others who, trained up in the errors of their forefathers, were ignorant of the duty they had contracted in baptism, of professing the Catholic faith That question [of inflicting temporal punishment for heresy] was never mooted until heresies had introduced general ruin and destruction ; and, we are persuaded, never would have been mooted, if heresies had not created disturbances, These passages need no commen- tary ; their drift is too obvious to be mistaken. ^ XIV. To avow (as my assertion avow's) that temporal punishment should not be inflicted on heresy, excejit where it involves opposition to government, &c., &c , and at the same time to hold, and not avow, that it always and essentially involves that opposition, this would be such a piece of shabby' equivocation, of despicable shuffling, that I am sure I need not add — what is, indeed, sufficiently intimated already — that while I hold and avow the former, I neither avow nor hold the latter. And now, in concluding this long answer, waiving all question of abstract right or duty to punish or to tolerate, from my heart I wish that all parties, Catholics and Protestants, would agree together that heretics should be coerced only by the force of argument, burned only in the fire of charity, cut off only with the sword of prayer and all good works; that not only temporal punishments and civil disabilities, except for civil crimes, should be abandoned, but all angry revilings and recriminations, unchristian passions under the mask of Christian zeal. We can hardly hope for the full accomplishment of this — the devil, and the world, and the flesh are too sti'ong on the other side ; but we may strive for it and approach, though we cannot reach it. For my own part, “ I have faith in my faith and I believe that, if we tried only the weapons which the Divine Founder of Christianity has put into our hands, we would come nearer to a united decision on that great controversy which can never be decided by the arms of worldly warfare. 3. What is the doctrine taught in Alaynooth upon the question whether the Pope can decide as to the right or duty of revolt against the civil power, so as to bind the consciences of Roman Catholics ? A. 'fhe answer to this question, as well as to others of a similar nature, may embrace a twofold aspect of the subject : first, as to the uniform line of procedure actually follower! bv the Holy See ; secondly, as to the authority claimed by or for the Holy See, whether exercised or not. Section 1. — The Practice of the Holy See. I. The usual, if not the only way, in which the Popes, in former times, decided on the right of revolt was, by deposingthe sovereign and absolving his subjects, or declaring them absolved from their duty of allegiance. Holding the doctrine which I hold, and which I have already stated in my oral evidence, on the temporal power of the Popes, I need hardly add here that I do not admit that branch of it which is called tlie deposing power. Alost of our writers who reject a temporal power de jure divino in tlie Popes, yet maintain that, in former times, he held and exercised such power legally, jure humano, over kings and kingdoms; that it was, if not always submitted to, yet generally acknowledged. Some eminent Protestant writers]: * “ Principes vero laici ideo illas poenas in hoereticos tulerunt, quia experientia docti sunt, neniinem fidei vel religioni helium nwvisse, qui siinul machinatus non sit adversus regnum.” — Perrone, dc Vera Rdiyione, p. 1, n. 3<;4. See, also, dc Loris, p. 1, n. 255. t '* Ili-^toria inagistra edoceinur turbas niotusque civiles semper praecessisse legum severitati ; ideoque ad eas hanc merito referrimus Ea autem quajstio nunquam agitata est, donee ha;reses clades rerumque omnium eversionem secuin attuleiint; nunqu.am agitata fuisset, ut nobis persuasum est, si haireses nullas civis- sent turbas." — Kendrick, Theol. Dogmnt. vol. 1, p. 192, &e. X See {inUr alia) an able article on .Michelet's History of France, in the Edinburgh Review, vol. 79. AXSvVKUS TO PATER K. 371 liavo concurred with Catliulics in maintaining that it was highly hcneficial, in those rlark and barbarous ages, when civil and other internecine wars were of suchconstant occurrence; when, in the never-ending and universal conllicts of great lords, of principalities, and of nations, there existed one supreme spiritual authority admitted and reverenced by all, and suj)plying the place of a defined and settled code of international law ; when the existence of the feudal system and its accessories rendered oppression by kings and other powerful men so easy, and their sanguinary code and ferocious jiassions made it so terrible and sure. However this may have been, the social system of those ages has, long since, passed away, and with it the deposing power. II. For about three centuries the Popes, so far as I know, have never attempted to exer- cise the deposing or any other temporal jiower out of their own temjioral dominions. They have acted in their jmrely spiritual capacity as bishops of the Universal Church, Their uniform jiractice has been, when tlie opportunity offered, to inculcate strict obedience and loyalty to the civil power, to denounce and condemn rebellion as a grievous violation of the law of nature and the Gospel. This will appear from the documents quoted farther on. It were absurd to speculate on an event so improbable as a return of lAiro- pean society to the system of the middle ages, and a revival of the teni])oral dominion of the Popes. There is no possibility that they shall ever again have occasion to speak or act towards the kingdoms of tlie world, except in their purely spiritual capacity; and, acting in that capacity, even Protestants have a sure guaranty, in the well-known tenacity with which the Holy See adheres to principles so solemnly and repeatedly put forward, that they shall ever continue to inculcate no other right or duty than that of unswerving loyalty. The question of the abstract authority of the Pope is, therefore, a purely specu- lative question. Nevertheless, as the shadow of that gigantic ])Ower which once held all Christendom in its grasp still darkens the imagination and disturbs the repose of some over-sensitive minds, 1 shall devote a few paragraphs to — Section 2. — The Authority of the Holy See. I. First. As to the general questions: Is revolt against the supreme civil powder, in any circumstances, justifiable or obligatory ? If so, what are those circumstances or conditions ? These are plainly theological or ethical questions, on which the Pojie has a right to pro- nounce, as he has a right to pronounce on any other general moral question. If he should promulgate a dogmatical decision on them, addressing the whole Church ex cathedra, and if the Church adopted it, whether by silent acquiescence or express concurrence, then, according to our doctrine, such decision would become a defined dogma, irreversible for ever, and binding on the faith of all Poman Catholics. In truth, both theologians and philosophers, Protestant as weU as Catholic, have discussed those questions as doctrinal, and tried to answer them according to the great principles of ethics.* II. But, as far as I know, the Church has issued but one clear definition on this matter. The simple duty of allegiance and obedience to the civil power, in all things lawful, is the one doctrine which she has indeed defined in terms the most express, and promulgated in a manner the most solemn. For the rest, she has hitherto left the aforesaid questions to the free discussions of the Schools. Ujvw'ards of a year ago I published, in a small volume of theological essays, a short paper under the title, “ The Right of Resistance to the Supreme Civil Power: Is it in any case Allow'able?” From this paper 1 take, in an abridged form, some of the following paragraphs. HI. Although, as I have said, there is no formal teaching of the Church, except that which inculcates the simple duty of allegiance ; yet that teaching is sometimes so w’orded as to seem to imply that the duty is absolute. The following is an extract from the “ Encyclical Epistle” of the late Pope, Gregory XVI., addressed in 1832, ex cathedra, to all the bishops of the Church, and universally received by them, and therefore forming an immutable rule of belief for all doctrines expressly defined and taught in it. “ Since we have learned that, in writings disseminated among the people, certain doc- trines are proclaimed destructive of the allegiance and obedience due to princes, and kindling everywhere the torch of revolt ; we must take the greatest care that the people, deceived there’ >y, be not drawn from the path (>f right, that, according to the admonition of the ajiostle, ‘ There is no power,' &c. (Rom. xiii. 2.) . . . . Wherefore both divine and humau laws cry out against those who, by the basest machinations of revolt and sedition, endeavour to destroy allegiance to [irinces, and to deprive them of their thrones These illustrious examples [among the early ChristlansJ of inviolable \inviolahilis'\ subjection to jirinces, which flow'ed necessarily [iiecessario profici$cehantur~\ from the most holy precepts of the Christian religion, are the condemnation of the detest- able arrogance and wickedness of those who, burning with an immoderate and unrestrained passion for licence, direct aU their energies to weaken and pull down all the rights of supreme powers, bestowing on the people slavery under the show of liberty.” This Christian duty of inviolable allegiance wmuld certainly seem to admit of no excep- tion whatever.! But wdiether the words w’ere intended to convey this meaning or not, one doctrine is declared by them with unmistakable clearness — that the duty of allegiance is of a most sacred and stringent kind. St. Alphonsus, the great luminary of theological science in the last century, thus writes : • So Sir James Mackintosh — “ Review of the Causes of tlie Revolution of 168S,” chap. 9 — the ablest discussion of the subject I have met with in our language. + I see reference made, in a recent theological work, to a brief of the same Pope, issued a little earlier, in which he is represented as teaching that “ the obedience whicti men are bound to yield to the powers established bv God is an absolute precept, which no man can violate.” I have not seen this brief; and it is not sufficiently clear that the foregoing are quoted as the exact words of it. Rev. P. Miirrav, i).i). In modern times. Sect. 2. Authority of Holy See. General question, one of ethics, which Church ha,s power to define. But has only defined duty of obedience to civil power. Bull of Gregory XVI. ex cat/iedi fi. 3 6 2 372 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. ]!l,\ . I’. MrRRAT, D.l). I)i>ctrii\e of St. Al- plu)iis\is J.iguoi'i. Tiiiportiint I’opal llo<'UllU‘Ill>. Clause ill oalli taken t>y liisliops. 'reaching of See of Uomc on keeping faith with heretics, on oath of allegiance, &c. Meaning of elanse in hishnps' oath . “ Very pernicious in tliis matter was the principle of Gerson, who had the boldness to assert, that a monarch, if he governs unjustly, may he lawfully judged hy the whole nation. For, according to him, whereas the nation is the whole of the kingdom in relation to the ])rince, who is only a part of it, in it tlie supreme authority ought necessarily to reside. This principle, I assert, is not only false hut pernicious But, it will be asked, what is the remedy, if the government of the prince be excessively tyrannical ? The remedy is, according to St. Thomas, to have recourse to God, and beg his assistance.”* This is, perhaps, as fitting a place as any other for introducing the following extracts from two very important documents communicated, in the year 1791, under the authority and command of his Holiness, Pope Pius VI., hy the Cardinal Prefect of the Propaganda, to tlie Roman Catholic Archbishops of Ireland. The documents are puhlislied at length, botli in the original Latin and in an English translation, in a pastoral addressed, in the February of 1793, h}' tlie Most Rev. Dr. Troy, to the clergy and laity of the Archdiocess of Dublin. The extracts, it will be seen, hear very closely on other questions proposed hy the Commissioners, as well as on the present. The occasion of the communication from Rome was this. (I abridge Dr. Troy’s ac- count). A pamphlet had been published some years previously, by a Protestant bishop, (name not given), under the title of “ The present state of the Church of Ireland.” 1'he pamphlet ran quickly through several editions, and, it appears, excited great hostility against the Catholic body, and against some relaxation, then contemplated, of the jienal laws. It dwelt with peculiar force on the clause in the oath taken by bi, shops at their consecration, hareticos j)e>'sequar et impvgnabo.^ The four archbishops met in Dublin, and addressed a letter to the Pope, in which they represented to him the recent misre- presentations of the aforesaid oath, and, while they expressed their own conviction that there was nothing in it inconsistent wdth their allegiance to the Sovereign of these coun- tries, yet they begged his Holiness to give “ some declaration or explanation of the oath, and particularly of the wmrds hcEreticos persequar et impngnaho, from himself, or by his authority,” such as would “ remove the alarm of well-meaning Pi'otestants, and confound the prejudiced.” After due deliberation a reply was sent, from which 1 now proceed to give the following extracts : — “ We perceive, from your late letter, the great uneasiness under which you labour, because that our traducers have taken occasion from the publication of a pamplilet, entitled The Present State of the Church of Irelamt, to renew, with increased acrimony, the old calumny against the Catholic religion, that it is altogether inconqiatible Avitli the safety of kings and states. Because, they say, the Roman Pontitf, being the father and master of all Catholics, and invested with such great authority as to have it in his power to free subjects from their allegiance, and from the oath pledged to kings and princes, he, they contend, can with ease create distnrhances, and injure the public tramjnillity of king- doms. [The Cardinal Prefect then refers to refutations already published against those accursed reviUngs.%\ From our opinion of your learning, we judge that to you are well known what are the rights of the Apostolic See, and what the arguments hy wdiich they can be supported. In this matter a distinction should he most carefully made between what the Ajiostolic See claims to itself as of genuine right, and what are, for calumnious purposes, imputed to it by the innovators of this age. TJte See of Rome has never taught that faith is not to he kept ivith the heterodox : that an oath pledged to kings separated from the Catholic communion can he violated; that it is lawful for the Roman Pontiff to invade their temporal rights and dominions. They, moreover, hold it to be a horrible and detestable crime for any one, in any case, and even under the qwetext of religion, to attempt or contrive any thing against the lives of kings and princes. “ His Holiness, Pius VI., has not, however, disregarded your requests. For, in order to remove effectually all occasion of cavilling and calumniating, which some, as you write, take from the words, ‘1 will, to the utmost of my qunver, pursue and oppose heretics,’ con- tained in the form of the oath of obedience to the Apostolic See which bishops are required to take at their consecration, which words are maliciously interpreted as the signal of war against heretics, authorizing persecution and assault against them as enemies; whereas the pur.suit and opqmsition to heretics which bishops undertake, are to he understood of their solicitude and efforts in bringing those heretics to a right way ef thinking, and reconciling them ivith the Catholic Church. His Holiness has graciously condescended to substitute, in place of the preceding foian of oath, that which was publicly read by the Archbishoj) of Mohilow, in presence of the Emjn-ess, to the great satisfaction of the whole court ot Petersburgh, and which avc transmit to you with this letter.”^ The rest of the letter is chiefly occupied in an exposition of the Catholic doctrine of ■ • Homo Apoxtol. Tract, viii. n. 1.3. f ])r. Troy justly remarks that there i« no exact equivalent in English for persequar. He translates it prose- cute. Perliaps pursue would hit the meaning more closely — “ I will pursue and ojipose heretics.” t “ Malcdicta ista convicia.” 'I'he aforesaid statements, theretdre, as to our doctrines, are not only not true, but maledirla convicia. § “ Kunquam Komana Sedes docuit heterodoxis fidem non esse servandam ; violari posse juramentum regihus a Catliolica communione disjunctis pnestitum; I’oiitifici Romano licere temporalia eorum jura ac dominia invadere. Ilorrendum vero ac dctestabile facinus etiam ajuid nos est, si quis unquam, atquc etiaiu religionis pradextu, in regum ac principum vitam audeat quidpiam aut moliatur.” II '• Non intelligentes [sciz., qui pra>dicta verba inalevole interjiretantur] earn persecutionem atque impug- nationem, quam contra haereticos episcopi suscipiunt, ad illud studium ac conatum referri, quo eos ad saniorem mentem perducere, ac ecclesia; Catholic* reconciliarc nituutur.” ^ The alterations in the form of the oath will be given presently. ANSWERS TO PAl’ER K. 373 allogianco to tl'O civil power, and oarnost exhortations to tlie l)isliops to incnlcatc the same- Aloti" with other citations to the same etlect. it (piotes tlie following ])assage from a con- stitution of Rope Renedict XIV., addressed in 17.03 to the Vicars Apostolic and the regular and secular clergy of Ihigland, and containing a numher of regulations for the English mission. “The Vicars A])ostolic are to tahe diligent care that the mission, aries behave on all occasions with integrity and decorum, ami thus hecorno good models to others; and par- ticularly that they he always ready to celehrate the sacred oflic('s, to communicate ])roj)er instruction to the peo])le, and to comfort the sick with their assistance ; and that they hy all means avoid public assemblies of idle men, and taverns The Vicars themselves are partieiilarhi charged to punish in everyiv(iy within their power, hnt severely, all those who do not speak of the pnhlic government with respect.'’* The following is the passage in the rescn’pt, containing the alterations above alluded to, in the oath taken by hisho])s at their consecration. “ 1, N. N., &c., as in the Roman Pontifical, to the clause, ‘ Heretics, schismatics, and rebels against our said Lord, or his successors aforesaid, 1 will to the utmost of my power })ur.sue and o])pose.’ AVhich clause is entirely omitted. Afterwards the words, ‘ The Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for ])ropagating the bxith,’ are substituted instead of ‘ The Cardinal Proponent in the Congregation of the Sacred Council.’ I'lie form con- cludes with these words — ‘ All and every one of these things 1 will observe the more inviolably, as / a)ii firmly convinced that there is nothing contained in them which can he contrary to my allegiance to the most serene King of Great Britain and Ireland, and his successors on the throne. So help me God and these holy Gospels of God. So 1 promise and engage t I, N. N., Archbishop or Bishop. &c.’ ” Nothing can be more explicit, emphatic, and decisive, than the preceding declarations. IV. A considerable number of higbly respectable theologians, who wrote long before the time of Gregory XVI., and one or two who wrote since the pid)lication of the Encyclical quoted above, clearly hold that an extreme case may occur, in which revolt is lawful. Whether this opinion is overruled, and its probability destroyed by the strong language of the Encyclical, I cannot take upon me to determine ; l)ut I should rather answer in the negative. 7 However this may be — V. Secondly : As to the lawfulness or duty of revolting in this or that particular case, e g., suppose in the case of a total rc])eal of the Act of Catholic Emancipation. If, in such a case, the Pope issued a brief or bull declaring the right of the Irish Catholics to revolt against the English Government, or imposing on them the obligation of doing so. would it be lawfid or a duty for us to revolt in that case? I answer, in the first place, that, if it be the doctrine of the Holy See (as some might infer from the preceding documents), that revolt is in no case lawful, of course the Pope could not declare it as a right, still less impose it as a duty. I answer, in the second place, that, supposing the doctrine of the Holy See to be, that revolt is lawful in some extreme case, 1 am absolutely certain that, in the ])resent or any possible future state of things, no Pope would issue an edict so frantic and so ruinous. VI. But, as Protestants might not admit the consistency of principle, and wmuld not admit the ruling jirovidence, which 1 look up to, in the Holv Sec, let me suppose that the Po])e actually issued such an edict. This is, I think, narrowing the question to a jtoint as definite and tangible as it could be put in. I answer, then, in the third place, that I would not conceive myself hound to obey any such edict. I would consider myself perfectly free in conscience to continue as before in my allegiance to the Sovereign wdiom he declared it law'ful or obligatory for me to revolt against. Nay more, if the case were one, {as the ccr.s'c given above most certainly would he one.) in which any of the conditions necessary to justify revolt (supposing it to be ever justifiable) were wanting, I should consider it not only lawful, but my clear duty to disregard the supposed declaration or command of the Pope. VII. But, neither in the foregoing, nor in any other case, would I treat the Pope with the least disrespect, in word or in deed, beyond that disrespect — if it can be so called — which is involved in neglecting his edict. 1 should not utter the language of contempt or reviling against him. A subject should not treat his sovereign, a child should not treat his father, with disrespect, even where the latter err, and it is a duty not to follow. Nor should I treat him witli irreverence whom I believe to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ, the Head, the Father, the Teacher, and the Ruler of the whole Church. I refuse to follow bis * “ Ai potissimum ipsiniet vicarii, omiii qua pos.sunt ratione. severe tamen illos puniant, qiii de publico regiiniue cum lionore sermonem iioii habent.” These admonitions are declared, in the letter of the Cardinal Prefect, to be applicable to Ireland as well as to England. “ Quas [regulas] pro tnissionibus Anglicanis observandas proposuit [Benedict XIY.,] qiurque vobis commvnes sunt." t lla-c omnia et singula eo inviolabilius observabo, quo certior sum nihil in illis contineri, quod tidelitati meaj erga serenissimum Magiiie Britanniae et Iliherniae Eegein, ejusque ad throuum successores debitte, adver.=ari possit. Sic me Deus adj uvet, et h®c sancta Dei Evangelia. Ita promitto et spondee. Ego N. N., iVrchiepiscopus vel Episcojius, etc.” I have given Dr. Troy’s translation of all the above extracts, with a few verbal alterations. J Carriere, a very distinguished living French divine, states that, principally from experience of the practical consequences of the o]>posite doctrine, “All orthodox theologians have, for a length of time back, maintained that rebellion is never Lawful.” IJe jure et jiistitia, n. 773. I apprehend this statement is not even substantially accurate ; I am sure it is not literally so. I doubt not, however, that theologians would hold, and I certainly lean decidedly to the opinion myself, that the doctrine to bo held as a practical rule is, that revolt is never lawful. One thing I hold as absolutely certain, that the duty of obedience is the only doctrine that should be inculcated on the people, especially by the ministers of religion. The extreme case should never be put before them from the altar or the pulpit. Kiev. P. MfnuAY, Extract from consti- tution of Benedict XIV. Clergy who speak disrespectfully of government to be imnished severely. Aforesaid clause in bisliops' oath can- celled. Clause added. Decision of Pope as to right of revolt in particular case. X o P(>i)e would issue such decision. Such decision, if issued, not binding. Witness guards against disrespect towards Pope. Doctrine of lawful- ness of resistance never to be preached to people. 374 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. Rev. P. Murray, D.D. Ground* on whicli witness does not base his doctrine. Grounds on wliicli lie duet base it. Conditions of lawful revolt. Impossibility of Pope aseertainins. with suffiident certainty, existence of those conditions. Limit of Papal power admitted by all. mandate, when it is a clear duty to refuse — hut with a heart overwhelmed with sorrow, and still clinging devotedly to him and to his unfailing chair. Whenever I speak of the I’ope’s authority, and of the limits that confine it, in this or in any other part of niy oral or written evidence, I sjieak frankly and in good faith ; and, with the same frankness and good faith, I desire this present declaration of mine to be always understood in those jilaces. VIII. That the Pope in i.ssuing the aforesaid edict* is fallible, all tlieologians, Ultramon- tane and Gallican, are agreed. It must be based on a consideration of facts in nowise dogmatical ; and he is liable to be mi.sled therein, just as any one else is liable to be mis- led. But I do not rest my decision on tliis For to assert tliat tbe command of a superior, when not speaking in an infallible capacity, does not claim obedience, would be to di'stroy the principle of obedience to all authority, civil and ecclesiastical. Neither do I rest my decision on the fact, tliat the question is one of a purely temporal nature. It is not so. Whether a people is just now authorized or bound to revolt, is clearly a moral question — and a moral question, too, of the weightiest moment, involving, if rashly and wrongly solved, a most awful sin, or rather an infinite accumulation of sins, before God. IX. I base my decision on the follownng reasoning ; — Revolt against the sovereign authority is a remedy, in itself and in its immediate — perhaps remote — consequences, so terrible — it is so sure to be the cause or occasion of countless, long-continued evils, both moral and jihysical, that, if it be at all lawful, it is so according to the very theologians wdio admit its possible lawfulness, only in the extreme case wdiere the following conditions are found united : — 1°. The tyranny must be e.xcessive. 2°. It must be manifest. 3°. The evils inflicted by the tyrant must be greater than those that will ensue from resisting and deposing him. 4°. There must be no other available way of getting rid of the tyranny, except by revolt. 5°. There must be a high moral certainty of success. 6°. The revolution must be conducted or sanctioned by the community at large. I have commented, though very briefly, on the nature and necessity of these conditions, in the essay above alluded to. To decide that revolt is lawful in any particular case, the judge must have clear evidence that every one of these conditions exists ; for, if any one of them be wanting, the revolt is unlawful. He must, therefore, be thoroughly and accurately informed as to the whole facts of the case. Imperfect or doubtful information, universal reports, newspaper state- ments, these and the like are not enough. They may generate opinion, strong impression, grave suspicion ; but the consequences of a wrong decision are too appalbng for one to pronounce on any other basis than that of clear moral certainty. Now it is manifest that this case is one, in which, above all others, the Pope would have the least possible security against deception. He is living far away. He is ignorant of all the actual circumstances of these countries— the temporal institutions with which he is sur- rounded, the habits, feelings, usages, the whole social system about him is entirely dilferent from ours, and, in many things entirely" opposed to ours. It would be too long to go through each of the above conditions in the details of their practical application. But let us take a brief glance at one of them — the moral certainty of success. As between Ireland and England, no one not fit for Bedlam would think of even entering on tlie consideration of such a question. But suppose a complete alteration in the relative jihysical force of the two countries, and in the moral elements which give to physical force its life and form, and without which, like a massive rampart Avail on a bad foundation, it is as likely to crush those Avho trust to it for defence as to resist tliose who make it the object of assault. Suppose England to lose and Ireland to gain so mucli in these respects, that the question of the chances of success would not be too absurd at least to enter on. Only imagine the Pope, even Avith the Avhole college of Cardinals, and all the theologians in Rome, sitting down seriously to consider such a question ! And yet, in order that his decision should be worth more than the paper it were written on, he should not only examine the question carefully, but come to a clear and sure conclusion about it. An able, cool-headed, practical man of the Avorld, well conversant from personal observation with the actual state of these countries, well versed in military science and such other knowledge of men and things, as Avould be nece.ssary for forming even a rational conjecture on a matter of this sort — why even such a man or a council of such men. miglit commit the grossest blunders in a calculation whose elements are so complicated and so dark. While the first mutterings of revolt are yet hardly audible, a single blow, quite unexpected, but deeply meditated and well aimed, may strike it to the very heart, and shiA'cr into atoms the whole fabric Avhich a fancy-born hope had reared Avith such apparent solidity. With what shadoAA’ of a chance of success would an aged ecclesiastic, Avhose life had been passed in a far distant land, and in far different kinds of contemplation, address himself to the solution of such a problem ? And yet, it is but one of several problems equally foreign to his pursuits and experience, and equally removed from the channels whence true and saA'ing knoAvledge would come to him. He may be eminently learned, eminently wise, eminently holy ; but aU these qualities will avail him little — except, indeed, to keep him from meddling in such matters at all. There are other considerations of a less a priori character than the preceding argument, but of an equally decisive and permanent force. Whatever power the Pope possesses is given him for the salvation and edification of men, not for their scandal and perdition — in (Bdificationem et non in destructioneni.^ The most extreme Ultramontane should admit this. • I use the word edict for brevity’s sake, as comprising a simple declaration of right to revolt, or a declaration of duty, or both together. t Perrone, de LocU, p. 1, n. 610. ANSWERS TO PARER K. 375 Now is it not perfectly ])lain that, in the state of society as it has existed so long and is likely to exist for ages to come, a declaration of the deposing power would most probably ])roduce — an exercise of it, infallibly produce — the greatest calamities both to religion and society ? * — First, such a storm of hate and vengeance would be raised as the world has not witnessed for many generations, accompanied, ])erhaj)s, with a deluge of blood, certainly with a deluge of sin. Secondly, in some places Catholicism would be crushed to the earth where it is now flourishing, persecuted where it is now freely tolerated, trampled out where it is now bursting into life. 'I'hirdly, every communist villain, every patriot swindler, every ])olitical anarchist, knave or fanatic, from one end of Europe to the other, would take up such a pa]>al declaration as a Magna Charta for rebellion, universal rapine, levelling and destruction. You would have the satellites of the father of lies shouting vivuts after the teacher of eternal truth. You would have the Vicar of the “ Prince of ])cace,” blowing the trumpet of war, “ domestic fury and fierce civil strife.” And all this cui bono ? — unutterable evils, without any compensating good. For my part, 1 believe, as theologians speak on somewhat similar hypotheses,! that if any Pope meditated so fatal a step, God, in mercy to the Church, would change his mind, or take him out of the world. X. “ All this,” it will be said to me, “may look plausible enough. Put, after all, is it not a defined doctrine of your Church that the Pope is its supreme pastor and ruler ; and that, therefore, you are bound in conscience to obey etery command and bow to every decision and declaration emanating from him ?” It is a prevailing opinion among Protestants that the Popes are among the last of men to admit — least of all to volunteer an admission of, limits to the obedience due to them. I shall now bring forward no less than two Popes to answer this objection, in their own proper persons. Benedict XIV. thus writes in his work on Diocesan SynodsrJ — “ We are not treating here of special rescripts or mandates, in the granting or expediting of which nothing is easier than for the pontiffs to he sometimes deceived, either by a false statement of facts or the suppression of some tnUh .... The decretal of Alexander 111. is well known, the words of which are : — ‘ After carefully examining the nature of the business . . . like a provident and prudent and discreet man, either reverently fulfil our command, or show us by letter a sufficient and reasonable cause Mdiy you cannot fulfil it. For we will patiently acquiesce in yovr not performing what Itad bs en suggested to ns from erroneous information.’ Of the same tenor is the decision of another decretal . . .in which the following words are read; — ' If you cannot without scandal provide him [with a benefice] we cheer- fully acquiesce, if you should come to the conclusion that our mandate shoitld not be executed.’ ” An act enjoined by a superior, ecclesiastical or civil, whether the command be in the form of a law or of a simple precept, may be in itself an indifferent or lawful act, or it may be in itself sinful and in no case lawful. If the act be in itself sinless, even though the precept or law enjoining it should be invalid {e.g., because the matter of the law is outside the superior’s province, or because the act enjoined does not tend to the public welfare, &c.), still I may be bound to perform the act (from the terms of the case it is lawful to perform it) not in virtue of this particular law, but because scandal, dissension, &c., may ensue. Thus, if a bishop impesed needlessly severe restrictions on his clergy, and such as, if known to the Pope, would be (as often has happened) softened or entirely annulled by him, the clergy, at least as a general rule, are in the meantime bound to submit. So I hold that we are bound to observe the law which prohibits public religious processions, &c., so common in Roman Catholic countries.§ The reason is obvious. But if the act enjoined be clearly sinful, then, I not only may disobey, but am bound to disobey the superior whether Pope or Prince. Tims, suppose the imaginary and absurd hypothesis of the Pope sending a stringent command over to me to organize a little band for the assassination of Mr. Spooner, or for spreading false reports against him, such as ascribing to him immoral or pernicious doctrines, wliich I know he does not hold, or which I have not sufficient reason for believing him to hold, 1 would be bound to disobey such a command, and to suffer interdict, suspension, excommunication, hanging, combustion, all spiritual and all tempoi’al punishments sooner than obey such command or any one iota of it. So if I suppose an equally imaginary and absurd hypothesis of the British Parliament passing a law that all priests who did not marry within a certain period should be burned alive, 1 should suffer the death sooner than obey such a law. But if I am bound to disobey a command in such cases, where only my own personal guilt, or at most private injuries to a few individuals, would be involved in my obedience, how much more weighty my obligation in a case so manifestly, so inevitably involving such wide and wasting evils, moral, physical, social, and political ? I trust that I have explained my view’s with sufficient clearness, and that it is therefore unnecessary to extend this answer farther. Ukv. Murrav, D.I). Consequences of Pa- pal decision in favour of revolt. Objection to wit- ness’s doctrine anti- cipated. And answered from I’apal documents. Duty of obedience to invalid precepts. Dutvofdisobedience. * On the immense difference between the evils of revolt in the middle ages and in our days, see Macaulay’s History of EnyUmd. Vol. 1, p. 34, &c. + Luc.o, de Fi(le. D 1, n. 277. j Lib. 9, c. 8, n. 2. § I suppose, for argument’s sake, the invalidity of such a law. In a mixed community, where there would be imminent danger of strife, collision — perhaps bloodshed — from such processions, there can be no doubt that a law prohibiting them, with a view to the preservation of the public peace and good feeling, would be a just and valid law. 37G MAYXO(JTiI C0M:\IISSI0N. Kbv. P. Muruav, D.D. Question IV. Indeli- i.ate portions of Moral Thioloipi. ^Vnsweii. Stiiilents never iiUerroijateJ therein. In^triietions {jiven by piotessor towards close of divinity c I'.irse. Heads of leeture in reference to duties of married state. I^ins against chas- tity. Doctrine of theologians tlicreon. Theological know- ledge thereon ; importance of. Whence derived. 4. Do you teach, or how do you deal with those cliapters in the course of moral theolog}’, which treat of the duties of the married state ? What is the class-book or liouse treatise in use in Maynooth College on these subjects? I I have never, either at the ordinary every-day calls, or at the public examinations, interrogated anv student on any part of the indelicate [lortions of those chapters in the course of Moral 'I’heology, in which the duties of the married state, or the matter of the sixth and ninth (in the Protestant catecliism, seventh and part of tenth,) Commandments are treated of. I have never known or heard of any student being interrogated in any wav on those subjects, either since 1 myself became a professor, or wliile I was a student. II. — 1 do not recollect to have ever given any lecture or exposition whatever on those topics until after I had become professor of the second class of theology. Since then, however, but more especially since I liecame professor of the first class, 1 liave, towards the close of the academical year, among the occasional instructions alluded to in my oral evidence, sometimes touched more or less on those matters, to such extent and in such form as 1 j idged most useful for theguidance of those just about to enter on parochial duties. III. — With regard to the duties of the married state, the main drift of my observations has bee n, es|)ecially in regard to female penitents, 1". To mark out what confessors are not bound to interrogate in, and the extent to which they are not bound to go, even on the matter on which it may be their duty to interrogate. '1°. To impress strongly on them the general duty of not interrogating, unless when bound to do so. 3". That they should, in every case, adhere strictly to the spirit of the followung rule laid down by the lloman Penitentiary, in reply to a certain bishop in a certain foreign country, where the crime committed by the second sou of Juda and Sue was of not unfrequent occurrence : “ Confes- sarius revocet in meiitem adagium illud, sancta sancte esse tractanda: atque etiam verba perpendat sancti ... * viri docti et harum rerum peritissimi, qui . . . inquit : — ‘ Circa autem peccata conjugum respectu ad debitum conjugale, ordinarie loquendo, confes- sarius non tenetur. nec decet interrogare, nisi uxores, an illud reddiderint modestiori modo quo pos.sit. De aliis taceat nisi interrogatus fuerit.’ ” 4°. The cases are very rare and qtiite exceptional in which a question may be proposed, even in this way.f b°. I w'arned the students against reading any book on this subject until after their ordination as priests, and even then to confine themselves to a compendium. 6“. Such subjects should never be approached except wuth the greatest purity of intention, and with a heart cleansed and strengthened by divine grace, of wdiich fervent preparatory prayer, to say nothing of the dailv spiritual training of an ecclesiastical college, will assuiedly bring down abundance. J 7 . There is one duty of married persons to wdiich 1 shall allude by and by (n. viii), and regarding the fulfilment of which I always inculcated the duty of strict interrogation and emphatic exhortation. IV. — With regard to sins committed hy unmarried persons against the virtue of chastity, P. It is the received and certain doctrine of our moralists, that every deliberate violation of the virtue of cliastity is a mortal sin. One of the greatest among them (the same referred to in the aliove decree of the Roman Penitentiary) thus expresses himself: — '• Onmis delec- tatio carnalis sive luxuriosa, cum advertentia et deliberatione capta, est mortale peccatum.’ 2”. The same high authority states, that on account of this sin, “ the greater number of souls fall into hell ; nay,’’ he adds, “ I do not hesitate to assert that all who are damned, are damned on account of this one sin of impurity, or at least not without it.” 3°. Considering the terrible trutlis enunciated in these two assertions, and considering — what I suppose unnecessary to explain here — the Catholic doctrine on the sacrament of penance, it follows, as a matter of course, that the attention of those who have the charge of souls should be turned most closely to this subject ; that they should ajiproach the discharge of the most important function of the ministry, not only w’ith apostolic zeal and purity, but with a pro- found knowledge of the human heart — the depths of sin into winch it may fall, and the course through which it falls — the art (for there is such an art) of scanning, often at a glance, and from symptoms apparently slight, the nature and extent of the soul's disease, the means both of nature and of grace for restoring it to the likeness of its lost purity. This is knowledge not to be acquired in a day, or w'ith little labour. It is derived from many sources : — from the Word of God, from moral theology, from approved works of solid Christian piety, from the accumulated wisdom of able, holy, and experienced men. Self- examination of one’s owm heart — for the germ, if not the actual impulse, of every human passion is in every human bosom-fervent prayer, natural sagacity, and tact have their share * As it is not iinjirobable that at least portions of the Blue Book of tbe Jlaynooth Commission will liave a con- siderable number of readers, the prurient curiosity of some of whom might be stimulated by specific references to books not fit for general perusal, I have omitted all such references in tlie present answer. Those books are des- tined only for the use of a few, whose professional duty it may be to read them ; whom the sacredness of tliis duty justifies in reading them ; and whom due preparation qualifies for the safe reading of them. 8ee n. x, in the present answer. t The following rule was laid down by the Bishops of Belgium, in a decree on the administration of tlie Sacra- ments, published bj' them in the year 1697: — “ Confessarii puree, caste, et valde caute, iuterrogent circa peccata carnis.” J “ Oro studiosos, ’ writes the author alluded to in the next paragraph, “ qui ad niunus audiendarum confes- sionum se parant, ut hunc tractatum de sexto prascepto, quemadmodum et alium de debito conjugali, non legant, nisi cum fuerint ad accipiendas confessiones jam proximi ; legantque ob hunc unice finem, omnem prorsus cunosi- tatem abjicientes ; atque eo tempore soepius mentem ad Deum elevent, et Virgini Immacnlatse se commendent, ne dum aliorum animas Deo student acquirere, ip.H suarum detrimentum patiantur.” In another place tlie same author quotes the following from a previous theologian: — Licet quo’dam de materia fa'dorum actuum tantjat {theo- logus quidam^ turpior est infernus ; et si feedas est sermo, fordius est in peccato jiuti escere Si angeli essent hojr.ines, talibus non indiyerent.” ANSWERS TO TAPER K. 377 in adding to it, perfecting and adapting it. Some possess it in a very liigli, some in quite Hev. l’. Mduhat, a low degree, »>•"• Premising, as before, tlie necessity of pure intention, &c.,in studying this subject, and of Duties oTcmifessor prudence, &c., in applying the knowledge thus acquired, the following arc the duties of a J confessor, in reference to the present matter, the importance of which, above all others, I laboured to impress on the minds of the students, ’ V. — Firtit. To attend principally to the disjtositions of the penitent. To see tl)at be is making a sincere confession, and that he is animated with the proper sjnrit of contrition.'’' ' VI. — Secondhf. Never to omit pointing out, especially to the ignorant and careless, the means of overcoming temptation ; such as, avoiding the c.xternal occasions of sin, averting the mind instantly from the object of temjitation and fi.xing it on some other object, asj>ira- tions of prayer, &c., &c. To impress the importance, the absolute necessity , of adopting those means, more or less, according to the temperament of the individual, &c. ; for it is certain that from not recurring to them, all fall who do fall. VII. — Thirdh/. To make the young special objects of a most paternal solicitude. If, in Special solicitude for early youth, the heart he preserved from the taint of corruption ; if the virtue of chastity J’outh. be firmly ])lanted therein, resistance to temptation grows into a luibit and becomes easy, and virtue strengthens with advancing years. In nineteen cases out of every twenty, the dis- orders of a riper age date their origin from early neglect ; and what is now a devouring conflagration might have been easily kept down wdien it was but a small flame. VIII. — Fourt/tly. The evil habits contracted by young persons frequently, very fre- Duties of parents. ' quently, arise from the neglect of parents ; a neglect, however, not always criminal, because not always adverted to. Their aflcction for their children often blinds them to dangers which, more than any other, lurk unsuspected and make their way unseen. Parents should therefore be interrogated as to the discharge of the duty of watching over their children; of I seeing to the sorts of books they read; the sports they engage in ; the places they frequent; and, above all, the companions with whom they associate. The grounds of the duty, and I the ])eril of neglecting it, should he pointed out. These, and the like, form the principal part of the few hours’ lecture, out of the whole j four years’ course, flevoted to this unpleasant, hut all-important subject. Such is the abyss < of unclean investigations in which the frenzied imaginations of some, who, perhaps, might •1 themselves greatly jirofit by them, represent the theological professors of Maynooth as i habitually revelling ! IX. — I fully appreciate the excellent intention of ITerMajesty’s Commissioners in proposing 1 the present question. I can here explain hut briefly and imperfectly a matter which, after i all, the fullest exposition can never place before the mind of a genuine Protestant, in that I clearness and in that perfect harmony with the ordinances of God and the moral iinprove- I ment of man, in which the mind of a Roman Catholic sees it. It is a painful necessity to have to vindicate from a charge of impurity an institution like that of confession, which we influence of confes- : not only believe to be divine, but know to be one of the great well-springs of sanctification siou on purity. ] to the faithful. It were painful to any Catholic, who, if he frequents confession, knows that I the degree of sinlessness that marks his life is mainly due to that practice. It is painful to me ■who know, not as a matter of speculative doctrine, but of experimental knowledge, from my missionary labours in several places, both before I became professor and occasion- ivitncss’s per.sonal j ally in my earlier years afterwards, who knoiv the nnmixed good which the study of this testimony thereto, i portion of our theology prepares for, and its apj>lication produces ; who have wdtnessed I hundreds upon hundreds coming to confession under the weight of that terrible passion, — ' so often under the w’eight of that terrible sin thencefortb, week after week, month after month, leading pure lives; struggling, as St. Paul had to struggle against the angel of Satan that buffeted him, and, like him, still victorious. The frequency of restitution is often put forward by a certain class of our polemical writers as an evidence of the good cftects of confession : but I consider this as nothing, — as absolutely nothing in comparison of the wonderful fruits of chastity and pui-ity of heart which it produces every day, in ever}^ condition, and in every age of lile. I know it to be the great jn'Otect ion o f that very virtue of which it is so frequently represented as the snare. And I am quite sure that sincere and religious-minded Protestants, if they knew but one- hundredtb ])art of what any parish priest or curate in the kingdom could tell them, though they still believed not, would thank God on their bended knees, that what they consider to be of purely human invention, has yet in its influences so much of what marks the institu- tions of Heaven. X. — I have, in a note to the third section of the present answer, alluded to certain theo- logical treatises on the matters before us. I think it useful to add a word or two here, in conclusion, on those treatises. Contrition includes two things ; — 1 . A true sorrow for the sin committed, together with a detestation of it, — Nature and necessity the latter being indeed hardly, if at alt, separable from the former. 2. A firm resolution of sinning no more, of contrition. The sorrow must spring from a supernatural motive. The resolution against sinning, which may, perhaps, bo implied in the sorrow itself, implies ;i r> solution of adoiding efficient remedies against relapse. If the penitent have not this contrition in both its jiarts the absolution of the priest is essentially null and void. This is a defect which no power in the church can, in aiuj jiosaible case, supply. There is a species of contrition called perfect, i.e., proceeding from the motive of the perfort love of God. An act of this sort of contrition instantly effaces all mortal sins from the soul, with an obligation, however, of afterwards confessing iliose sins, in order to comply with the divine precept, lienee, if oneof those f'rotestants who are in a state of invincible ignorance should make , ‘ an act of perfect contrition, there is no doubt that his sins would be thereby effaced. *' c*oAs to confession, all that God requires of the penitent is that he use moral diligence m tlie examination of his Requirements for a conscience, and tell sincervh' all the mortal sins that occur to Ins mind on such examination. Any ndstake he valid confession, may then commit, through forgetfulness, &c., is in no way imputed to him, and in no way affects the validity, or diminishes the efl'ect of the saeniment. 3c 1 378 MAYXOOTII COMMISSION. Kev. P. Muuray, D.D. Theological trea- tises on the present matter. ■\Vliy some of them so diffuse. Character of theologians who wrote them. Heading of those books : how justifiable. Confinnation of Witness’s views and reasoning. Some of them are diffuse and quite plain in their language, especially those of our older theologians. I liave already stated that those books arc not necessary for confessors to read. Tliere is a great deal in them -wliich even professors of theology may pass over. I have one large folio, tlie most copious and learned treatise ever written, de Matrimonio. I do not think that I ever read three pages of the indelicate ])ortions of this book, until I came to write the present answer, I had not opened it for I know not how many years ten at the very least. There is much now antiquated and useless matter in those l)ooks. The tendency to the exhaustive metliod — omitting no branch of a subject, saying every tiling that can be said on it — was very common in those days when almost every book was a folio or quarto It is natural enough iu retired scliolars who devote their whole lives to one study ; especially in theo- logians, who look on theology as the most extensive, the most interesting, and the most important of all sciences. So it is indeed in other walks. Such is law to many lawyers ; classics to men like Person, &c., &c. We have examples of this exhaustive and expansive tendency in several English Protestant divines, — Barrow, Warburton, &c.; and in other old writers, such as Burton, Fuller, &c. I must not omit to observe, also, that those theologians who wrote most extensively and plainly, were all members of some religious order or congregation ; men of extraordinary sanctity, most of them leading lives of incredible mortification and incessant prayer ; such mortification and such prayer as would have subdued the passions of a Tiberius or a Corn- modus. They became, in a manner, like disembodied spirits ; and analyzed the course of sin, — .the most secret workings of the soul, — witli the same passionless indifference with whicli a practised anatomist would set about the dissection of a body. Tlie fair and sensible and true view of tlie matter is this. The whole danger to morality from writing or reading sucli books arises from the motive or the manner in which they are written or read. There are many occasions of strong temptation in the world. If I expose myself thereto without sufficient cause, I sin, because I throw myself into the imminent and certain danger of sinning ; but if I act from a sense of duty, or from any just and weighty reason, I do not sin. This is a plain principle of Christian morality. Thus, for example : — the course of study for the medical profession, and the practice of that jjrofession, espe- cially in some of its departments, are infinitely more dangerous than the study and the appli- cation ofthis infinitesimal segment of theology, even in tlie most exaggerated representation thereof. AVill any one venture to say that all medical students, all practising jihysicians and surgeons are necessarily living in the habit of mortal sin ? Surely not. Surely if they go through their work from a proper motive, and practise the necessary observances of religion, they may all lead, as so many of them do lead, lives of exemplary purity and virtue. Now take the case of a priest. Suppose him, while a student in college, to get through this little paragraph of theology in the way prescribed above in the present answer. Sup- pose him afterwards, wdien a priest on the mission, to make use of this knowledge, in the way also prescribed above. How small is the danger in Ids case compared with that of the medical student and practitioner ? But if you add to this the very important consideration, that the whole training of an ecclesiastical student, from the day of his entrance into col- lege, and the daily works of self-sanctification which the laws of the church impose on him from the day of his ordination, should clothe him in a spiritual armour, impenetrable to the fiery darts of the enemy. If you take this consideration (and others might be added) into a comparison of the two cases, the divergence between them widens into almost direct opposition. But still there is danger ? Truly, tins world is covered all over with a net-work of danger, and the lioliest have to tread upon it like the rest. But we believe that there is a God above us ; and tliat he is all-powerful, and merciful, and good ; and that he has not left us to be tossed about ou the horns of hell, and trampled at will under the hoofs of tlie wicked one. We believe that He is our strength, exceeding great; that he “is faithful and will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able; but will make also with temp- tation issue, that you may be able to bear it.” If there be a bad priest there is danger ; and, therefore, to prevent such a one from getting into the sanctuary, or for removing liim from its service if he has found his way there, we have colleges, and discipline, and laws, and liishops, and soforth. But for a man of ordinary virtue there is absolutely no danger worthy the name. “ All things are clean to the clean : but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean.” Since the preceding pages were written, a pamphlet has fallen into my hands, entitled, “ The Great Sin of Great Cities : being a reprint, by request, of an article entitled ‘ Prosti- tution,’ from the Westminster and Foreign Quarterly Review, ior 1850.” Though I do uot concur in every thing which the writer advances, the article appears to me to be written very sensibly, and in an excellent spirit and feeling. The Commissioners 'will allow me to quote the opening paragraphs. To me they seem, especially coming from such a quarter, to afford a strong confirmation of the reasonableness of some views jmt forward in the preceding answer. “ There are some questions so painful and perplexing, that statesmen, moralists, and philanthropists shrink from them by common consent. The subject to which the following pages are devoted, is one of these. Of all the social problems which philosophy has to deal with, this is, we believe, the darkest, the knottiest, and the saddest. From whatever point of view it is regarded, it presents considerations so difficult and so grievous, that in this country no ruler or writer has yet been found with nerve to face the sadness, or I’eso- lution to encounter the difficulties. Statesmen see the mighty evil lying on the main path- way of the world, and with a groan of pity and despair, pass by on the other side. . . . ANvSWERS TO I’AFEU K. .*170 “ It is from a strong conviction that tliis is not worthy hohaviour on the part of those who aspire to guide either the actions or tlie opinions of others, that, after inudi liesitation and many misgivings, we liavo undertaken to speak of so dismal and delicate a matter. We are aware that mischief is risked hy bringing the subject ])romincntly before the ])uhlic eye, and that the benefit to he deriveil from the discussion should be so clear and certain, as umjues- tionahly to overbalance this risk. We are aware that it is a matter on whicli it is not easy to speak openly, — not always ])ossihle to speak with confidence as to facts, causes, or con- sequences. We arc aware th.it we shall expose our.selvcs to much scolllng from the vulgar and light-minded ; much dishonest misrejiresentatiou from those who recklessly echo any popular cry; much unmerited anger froni those who deem that refinement forbids them to sjieak of things which it docs not forbid them to do; much serious blame on the part of tliose who think that no object can justify us in compelling attention to so revolting a moral sore. We have weighed all these obstacles ; and we have concluded that the end we have in view, and the chance of the good we may effect, and the suffering we may mitigate, war- rant us in disregarding them. We think that such considerations have already too long with- held serious and benevolent men from facing one of the sorest evils that the English sun now shines upon. Our divines, our philanthropists, our missionaries, nay, even our smirs de la charite, do not slirink from entering in person the loathsome abodes of sin and misery, or from penetrating into the lowest dens of filth and pollution, where human de-spair and degradation ever dragged itself to die, when led thither by the impulse of compassion and the hope of good. Why, then, should we allow indolence, disgust, or the fear of miscon- struction, to deter us from entering upon an inquiry as to the possibility of mitigating the very worst form which human wretchedness and degradation can assume ? The best and purest of our race do not feel themselves repelled from, or tarnished by, the darkest haunts of actual guilt and horror, where pain is to be assuaged, or where soids'’ are to be saved. Let us act by subjects, as they act by scenes. “ Feeling, then, that it is a false and mischievous delicacy, and a culpable moral cowardice, which shrinks from the consideration of the great social vice of ])rostitution, because the subject is a loathsome one ; feeling, also, that no good can be ho])ed unless we are at liberty to treat the subject, and all its collaterals, with perfect freedom, both of thought and speech ; convinced that the evil must bo jirobed with a courageous and unslirinking hand before a cure can he suggested, or palliatives can be safely applied ; we have deliberately resolved to call public attention to it, though we do so with pain, reluctance, and diffidence.” About the middle of the article I find the following observations : — “ Is it not the fact, that the sexual propensity is awakened into unnaturally early and undue activity, by the bad condition and regulation of nearly all seminaries of education for all classes ? The early initiation, if not into vice, at all events, into vicious ideas, the licentious language, and the coarse and vulgar habits which there prevail, have, undoubt- edly, to answer for much of the evil that exists. F or, where modesty is so early broken down, and where the passions ai-e awakened before the principles have had time to become formed or fixed, the difficulty of maintaining virtue, when temptations press around, becomes excessive. If, instead of permitting, among all ranks, careless association with the coarse and bad, and enforcing, in addition, among the higher classes, daily perusal of the works of a licentious age, the education of boys were to be conducted with any degree of the same waitchful attention to purity that marks that of girls, and that of young Catholic priests, (in this country, at least,) the gain to the whole tone of public morals would, we are convinced, be something beyond estimation.” — (P. 27.) 5. In what manner do the professors who lecture in dogmatic theology, e.xecute the provision of the Statutes, c. v., s. 3:— ‘‘Let the Professor of Dogmatic Theology strenuously exert himself to impress on his class, that the allegiance which they owe to the Poyal IMajestv cannot be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever ?” In what way is this doctrine specifically inculcated '? A. I had been for several weeks hesitating as to whether, or how, I should answer the four last questions in this Paper K. On one hand, if I answered them fidly and fairly, (accord- ing to my conception of what full and fair answers should be,) however carefidly I might avoid collateral topics, though intimately connected with the matter in hand, and obviously suggested by it ; still I could not avoid putting forward statements and views strongly clash- ing with cherished prejudices. On the other hand, I could not — omitting higher consider- ations — reconcile it with manly honour and straightforwardness, to give such reserved and one-sided answers, as, according to my notions, would, in the circumstances, render a sup- pressio veri equivalent to a sur/f/estio falsi. So I resolved to leave the questions unanswered and, according to the excellent, though unhappily not always practicable, rule of the good old monk, sinere res vadere lit vadunt. Considerations, however, against this resolve were subsequently pressed upon me, Avhich, on mature reflection, determined me at least to modify it. I have to state here, at the outset, in reference to those questions in which inquiries are made about the observance of particular Statutes, that a considerable portion of our Statutes have been a dead letter, some from the very day on which they were first published, up to the present moment, others from a later date. If any one took up those Statutes to form from them a full and correct idea of the actual and working system of Maynooth, he would err egregiously. I once heard that they were originally borrowed, with a few modifications, from the statutes of some continental college or colleges. I take this account to be sub- 3 c 2 Kev. J’. IMtun.vY, D.l). Question V. Allegiance'. Power of dispensing in. Witness’s liesitation as to remaining questions. College Statutes. 380 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. ]{i;v. r. JIuIlRAY, « D. l?yc-l:iws : liow trained and observed. Instances illustrative of mode in wliieh Trustees make bye- laws and regulations. VV'itness declines to suggest a remedy. Answkr to Ques- tion V. Too much bye-law making. stantially correct ; for several of them are, at least as they lie, either unsuited to this country, or such as the enforcement of them would, considerin,angford’s sermon ail'ecfed the h'.diid)urgh Reviewer ; even the wit of Sydney Smith, or the eloipience of tlie great orators, the last of whom has just departed, can hardly give them some life and heat in my eyes. 'J liey are worse than schoolboy declamations about CVsar’s l)cing a great man, tvor.se than the juvenile poems of a bad ])oet, worse than a dietary of decayed vegetables. 1 should as soon think of coming down to my class-hall with a solemn lecture and warning to the students against ’oining a combination of Rapparees or Ribbonmen, as of coming down with a solemn lecture and warning on the subject of the Po])e’s absolving us from our oath of allegiance. Tlicre is just as much ])robability that the Pope will issue a Pull al)Solving us from our allegiance or from our oath of allegiance, as there is that he tvill issue a Pull for tlie revival of the Prehon laws in Ireland, or of the he])tarchy in England. J’oor Pope, heir of 8t. Peter’s tribulations, as of his power, would that he could secure allegiance in the subjects of his own dominions! Would that he could ilx his temporal throne as tirm as the throne of these realms! Put though 1 have not given special prominence to a woi'thless and dead letter, I have not failed in a far more important, because really ])ractical ttmetion. There has always been more or less disaffection among a large mass of the Irish Catholics. Some years ago it assumed, among many of them, a shape of positive disloyalty more or less decided. I am only stating facts, not tracing causes or apportioning responsibilities.* This strong feeling has been latterly very much on the decline; but, so far as it has di.sa])peared, it has rather died out than been extinguished. It has vanished to make room not for loyalty but for inditferenco — as the ebbing sea leaves behind it not vegetation but barrenness. Xone of the disaffected ever thought of the Pope, except as an oj)ponent — no man dreamed of a papal absolution from allegiance. The only occasion on v. hich the Pope interfered, or rather, perhaps, was publicly known to interfere, was that alluded to in one of the notes to my oral evidence, and then it was to exhort the clergy^, and especially the bishops, to promote peace, submission to authority, &c. The Roman authorities were rather roughly handled at that time, both in the great popular meetings and elsewhere. If a thought of Rome should have had any' influence on the revolutionary tendencies of the time, it would have been decidedly to check, not to accelerate them. Of the real causes of this disaffec- tion — whether those existing from old times or those of a later growth — I refrain from speaking, as I have refrained, or all but refrained, from speaking of them in my lectures to the students. They' are matters of fact, admitted or controverted, according to the undeniable evidence of them, or the political bias of different parties ; but the disaffection, however generated, has undoubtedly been intensified — has acquired a certain fixity — a certain basis of apparent reason — .has got itself invested with the shape of a formula, in consequence of the dissemination of principles and sayings, new, I think, in this country, at least to the present generation, and all the more pernicious that, on one hand, they seem to lean to the side of humanity — to spring from the very heart of universal benevo- lence, and to lead to universal happiness ; wliile, on the other hand, their dreadful results when applied in practice can be known only' from — what to the mass of our people is unknown — the experience of other countries or other times. I allude to those dreams about a sudden restoration of society' — a sudden cure of long-existing, deep, andwide- spread social miseries, whether by legislative enactments or other and questionable mcan.s — the practice of habituating the ignorant and unreflecting classes to a sullen and morbid hatred of the existing state of things, to a longing and looking for wholesale agrarian and other wholesale changes, as the one great remedy, only not desirable to attempt accom- plishing because not possible to accomplish, in the shortest and sharpest manner — the practice of accustoming the ears of those classes to unsparing and unceasing abuse of every government, denouncing it alike for the worst intentions in the good it effects, in the evil it leaves unredressed, or unsuccessfully attempts to remove or to avert, passing over in pi'ofound silence the undeniable benefits it may have conferred, or exhibiting them only as snares and shams — the practice of trafficking in the strong religious faith and feeling of the people, in representing as a battle for religion what is but a struggle of political factions — - nay, often a shabby contention of local and even personal antij)athies and predilections — in one word, the propagation of those principles and ideas whose sure practical tendency, hoavever attractive, and even just they may appear in the abstract, is to engender in the masses not only' a cold estrangement from the Supreme Powers, but an habitual jealousy, a rancoi’ous hatred of them, a complete and driftless unsettling of the popular mind, a sour and sulky discontent which nothing can satisfy', and reasoning only' ii’ritates — all that mass of morbid ingredients, which, expressed in a single phrase, are revolution and anarchy inchoate, and, if not kept down by overwhelming pressure will soon be revolution and anarchy consummated. I am thoroughly convinced that many men, not only well-meaning as citizens, but sincere and pious Christians, are more or less cauglit by' those delusive theories and sentiments, who, if aware of their real tendency, would shrink from them with * See Macaulay’s Speeches (authentic edition), passim, for one view of the matter. Hev. ]’. Ml niiAV, D.l). Witness omits parti- cular and ciiijiliatic ()l)scrvance of Statute, in literal sense, as^ useless. Ihit carries out its ])ractical meaning and si>irit. Pope considered by the disloyal as an opponent. Disloyal and anti- social thecrics, &c. 1{ev. r. MriuiAY, Witness, of Lite years, lectures specially against them. Training of students in right feelings on the aforesaid, how to be ctfccted. 382 MAYXOOTH COMMISSION. horror. I frankly confess that, though never having had the slightest sympathy -mth revolutionary doctrines, it is only from much reading (and 1 have read the best I could get on both sides), and much reflection within the last few years, that 1 have come to see things in the full and clear light — to me as clear as that of the sun at noonday — in which I now behold them. Of late, and only of late years, I have deemed it a matter of the first importance to try to impress the minds of the students under my charge with ])roper notions on this subject, both for their own guidance and the guidance of others. I will not weary the Commissioners by stating how 1 executed this task. I have not attempted to do it in a very formal way. JIany of the I’evolutionary aphorisms are so equivocal — there is apparently so much of abstract truth, of excellent intention blended with them, that it is not quite so easy to set forth their naked unredeemed deformity before those who hear them treated in this way for the first time.* In those expositions I avoid all allu.sion to current political questions. I try to keep my observations free from all tinge of political colouring, to present them in a purely ethical and theological light ; I keep clear of disputable or obscure points ; I confine myself to broad principles of Catholic theology, to broad facts in history and in human nature, and to plain reasoning on them. Every one has his own way of enfoi'cing his arguments : to me it appeared useful to read, and accordingly I have sometimes read, sketches from I’evolutionary history in illustration of the doctrines I had been unfolding. So far, therefore, from telling the students to beware of the Poj^e and his power of dispensing in the oath of allegiance, I say to them, if not in so many words, yet in sensed — “ Stick to the Pope and to the doctrine of the Holy See, which is that of the Church and the Gospel ; and in doing so you will preserve yourselves and your people from the disastrous influence of the ascendancy of rebelhous and revolutionary principles — disastrous alike to the religious and social well-being of men.” J I have some observations to ofter on the mode in Avhich the oath of allegiance is proposed to our students. I w’ould suggest an immediate change as to place, time, and other cii’- cumstances. But I understand that the attention of the Commissioners has been already directed to this subject. College, Maynooth, March, 1854. Patrick Murray. * “ Lord Elibank said to him ^Kobertsoii the historian), ‘ Mr. Itobertson, the first thing th.at gave me a iiigh opinion of yon was your saying .... that you did not think worse of a man's moral character for his having been in rebellion.’ . . . Dr. .Johnson observed, that being in rebellion from a notion of another’s right was not connected with depravity, and that we had this proof of it, that all mankind applauded the pardoning of rebels, which they would not do in the case of robbers and murderers.” — (Boswell, v., 145, ed. 183.a). Among the causes of the diversity of feeling with which a rebel and a murderer arecommonly regarded, are, first, that the rebel may be impelled, and always professes to be impelled, not by any pcrson.al feeling, as of vindictiveness, selt- aggrandizement, &c., but by a pure desire for the welfare of others, perilling his own for the public good. Thus rebel- lion claiu'.s to be a species, the highest and the most heroic species, of patriotism. The murderer is the very opposite of ail this. Secondly, the rebel professes to be goaded on (and often has been goaded on) by a system of intoler- able oppression — the poor trampled down and starved by the rich, class persecuted by class, race persecuted by race, creed persecuted by creed, the government itself being tJ.e persecuting party, or, by its acquiescence, abetting the persecuting party, &c. Hence it is that in some places when a village tyrant is murdered for his (real or supposed) oppression of the people, the assassin is not looked upon as an ordinary murderer, he is, on a small scale, a lawless rebel against a lawless system. Hence, too, one sometimes hears, “Ido not excuse murder, but the victim deserved his fate. ’f Thirdly, the great evils of rebellion are not so much involved in the act of rebellion itself, they are rather consequences of it— consequences which the rebel may not foresee at all, or only foresee in part and obscurely ; at any rate, he does not desire or intend them, he purposes to avert them, he works himself into a persuasion that he will be able to av’ert them. Fourthlj’, rebellion may be, in a certain extreme case, lawful. The rebel thinks that his is the very case. He is not accustomed nor is he qxialified to consider such complicated questions in their moral relations. The miseries he sees about him ai>peal to him directly — he is maddened by them, and blinded to a consideration of the infinitely greater miseries which an unlawful mode of redress will bring down on himself and on millions besides. There are none of these palliating circumstances in the case of murder; or if there be, as e.rovocation, and in a moment of frenzied passion, this is not the sort of murder we speak of. Nevertheless, in estimating the relative enormity of crimes, it is the business of a theologian to put out of consideration, as belonging to an entirely different chapter of inquiry, those circumstances of ignorance, inadver- tence, &c., winch so materially affect the amount of guilt in the criminal. Comparing single sins with single sins, and single crimes with single crimes, beyond all doubt, rebellion is not only a far greater crime, but a far greater sin than murder. Whoever, therefore, deliberately gets up a rebellion with the same forethought and conviction of the evil involved therein, which a deliberate murderer has of the evil involved in murder, is immensely more guilty in the eyes of God than tlie murderer. t ilcre is an instance of a class of propositions which in the abstract may he true, but whose practical import is certainly most wicked. Supposing it true that a very cruel landlord deserved the punishment inflicted on him, i.e., supposing that a law enacting such punishment were a just law, and that the qiunishment inflicted according to legal form were, therefore, a just punishment, still the ijublication of the above sentiment would, in the circum- stances, be nothing less than an open and direct encouragement to the worst crimes. J To explain and establish the theological principles on the subject of loyalty, &c., in scientific form, is undoubtedly the proper duty of the Professors of Theology. But — what is of infinitely more importance — to imbue the minds of the students, not merely those in the theological classes, but all the students, with the right feelings in this matter--to train their minds from the very commencement of their course in habits of devotedness to their spiritual vocation, and of disrelish lor political agitation of any kind, this (at least according to the existing distribution of duties), belongs properly and professionally to the officers of discipline. ANSWERS TO PAPER K. 383 AyswEus of tlie Rev. CrKonGK Crolly to (Questions propos 9 tl in Paper K. 1. What (loctrine is taui;ht hy you on the suhjeet of an oath ])leleilged to, or a contract made with a laeretic hy a Roman Catholic, I teacdi that each of them isofeipial validity, and of equal ohligation, with an oath pleilged to, or a contract lua le with a Roman C.itliolic in the same matter, and under similar circumstances, d'he ohligation of a contract made with, or of an oath |)ledgetl to any person, is no more changed or modilied hy his religious helief, than hy tl,ie colour of his skin, or the stature of his body. It is ecpially hiuding on the conscience of a Catholic, wdiether the party with whom he enters into a, contract, or to whom he pledges his oath, he a Catholic, a Heretic, a Mahommedan, or a Pagan ; because the ohligation i.s not derived from the }>eculiar doctrines of any creed, hut from the virtues of truth, hdelity, justice, and religion. 'Friith obliges a man to })romise or to swear, not feignedly, hut sincerely and plaiidy ; fidelity' obliges him not to act perlidiously, hut to fulfil his promise; justice requires lum to give to another that to wduch he has ])ledged himself by contract or hy oath; and religion demands that lie shall not call the God of truth to he the witue.ss of falsehood. , 2. Whether the doctrine is still taught in Mayuooth College, -wliicdi is found in a note njipended to the evidence of Rev. Dr. Slevin, in tlie Ajipendix to the Eighth Report of the Commissioners of Irish Education Enquiry, p. 222, to wit: — “iThe spiritual compulsion of which the Pope speaks, and the jihysical coercion employed hyiithe laws in .some countides against heretics, both regard a. state of things when one or moire would attempt to intro- duce heresy, and form a sect in a purely Chtholic country. This-,ap])ears evidently from the Pope’s words (pioted above (in his Bull ‘■Ad ///as ma////s,' dated, August 1748, and addressed to the Primate, Archbishops, and Bishojis of Poland), in wdiich he distinctly states, that co/npuJsion of a//// sort cannot he e/nplo/jed, when they' are tolerated by the laws. It is not fair, therefore, to wrest a law, or an observation, that regards only' hei’etics who are disturbers of social order, and endeavour to apply it to Protestants incorporated into a nation, or forming a sect tolerated by the laws.” I really cannot pretend to represent all the teaching in Mavnooth College upon these subjects, or upon any others which are matters of mere opinion, and uj)on wdiich the Church leaves each person free to embrace 'whatever side he pleases. In a College like oiffs, whei'c all the professors and other superiors are priests, wdio have studied a course of theology', each one will consider himself perfectly competent to form his ow'ii opinions. I woxild not, therefore, act with that entire candour and openness, which I hope I shall always preserve, if I did not confine my answering on this, as well as on other vexed questions, to my oAvn individual teaching. The following are the w'ords of Benedict XIV., referred to in the question: “Nobis igno- tum est an usu et consuetudine receptum sit, ut hmretici ad Catholicam veritatem confiten- dam constringi possint in iis regionibus, in ipiibus a principibus, permissum est ut commixti cum Catholicis vivant eademque juris iequalitate et civili consuetudine, fruantur.” That is : “ It is unknown to us, if it be received by' use and custom, that heretics can be com])elled to profess the Catholic faith in those countries in wdiich they are permitted by' pi’inces to live incorporated with Catholics, and to enjoy an eq'aality of civil rights and usages.” The circumstances in which this Bull was issued were these: Two Lutherans were desir- ous of contracting marriage, in accordance with the discipline of the Catholic Church ; for which puiqjose it was necessary for them to obtain a dLspensation in the impediment of affinity. A Catholic bishojp who had received from the Pope power to dispense, in certain matrimonial impediments, with Catholics onlyq dispensed with the }>arties in question, although they were not Catholics, because he believed that they would become Catholics ; and he declared that, if they' did not fulfil his exjiectation, he would punish them severely, and forbid them to live together. The Pope certainly' considers it a very singular proceeding, to attempt to force heretics to enter the Catholic Church, in those countries in which they enjoy' equal civil rights and ]>rivileges with Roman Catholics. But the truth is, that neither of the two Bulls of Benedict XIV., “-Ad man ns tnas" and Sin////lari nobis," quoted in Dr. Slevin’s evidence regard the s])iritual or temporal punishments of lieretics ; nor does the Pope refer to the subject, except (]uite incidentally' in the passage which I have ti'anscribed. Both these Bulls discuss certain matters relating to marriage — a subject, concerning which the Commissioners seem as anxious to ascertain the teaching in Maynooth College, as on that which relates to the punishment of heretics. As opinions, the very' opposite of those ■wdiich 'ive teach, have been frequently and confidently attributed to us, regarding both those matters, I shall explain them with as much brevity' as the importance of the sub- ject will admit. I must beg that the Commissioners will excuse me for detaining them by exjn’essing my' own opinions, and making my own statements, instead of adopting the opinions and statements of others, because, I must candidly confess, that I believe some of the opi- nions to be erroneous, and some of the statements to be irreconcilable with matters of fact; although I am fully' convinced that they were made with the utmost sincerity, and in the most perfect good faith. § I . — Doctrine taiif/ht in l\laynooth regarding JSIarriage. I have stated, on a former occasion, that the Roman Catholic Church assumes authority over the spiritual contract of matrimony only; and that she does not pretend to regulate its IiEv. G. Croli.y. Doctrine taiiylit in Mayjiooth regarding tlie ohligation of an oath pledged to, or a contract made with a heretic by a Konian Catholic. The subject of which the Bulls, Ad manus tuas and Singulnri nobis, treat. 384 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. Rev. G. Croli.y. Different ends for wliicli matriinony has been ordained — difference between the effects of eccle- siastical and civil impediments. Laws of the Roman Catholic Church regarding marriage when the contracting parties are both Catholics. temporal effects without the concurrence of the civil jiower. This is no new doctrine, for it was tausht in the middle ages by a writer who is still held in the highest estimation by the Catholic Church. “ We must reffect,” says S. Thomas Atptinas, “ that when any thing is ordained to different ends, it must he directed to those ends by different means, because the end is ]>roportioned to the agent. Matrimony is ordained to many ends; to jierpetuate the sjiecies; to perpetuate some ])olitical good, as the people in a commonwealth: it is, moreover, ordained to ])erpetuate the Church, which consists of the body of the faithful; whence it is necessary that it should be directed by different things. Inasmuch as it is ordained to the good of nature, which is the perpetuity of the species, it should be directed by nature inclining to this end, and thus matrimony is called a natural office; ina.smuch as it is ordained to the good of the state, it is subject to the ordinances of the civil law ; inas- much as it is ordained to the good of the Church, it is meet that it should be subject to ecclesiastical authority.” * 111 regulating the matrimonial contract, which the Roman Catholic Church regards as a sacrament, and, therefore, as a spiritual matter (which it is also considered to be to a consi- derable extent by the laws of England), it must be reniembered that there is a wide differ- ence between the disabilities created by the Church and those which are created by the state; because the former entails spiritual, and the latter temporal penalties. If a man do not believe the Roman Catholic to lie the true Church, he will, of course, deny her spiritual power, and will not, therefore, trouble himself about her sjiiritual incapacities ; whilst, if he neglect the ordinances of the state, no matter how unjust he may consider them to be, liis children will be disinherited. Rut, in fact, the Catholic Church is far more lil;eral than our own municipal law, with regard to the essential forms of the matrimonial contract. In order to state the doctrine taught in Maynooth oii this subject, it will be necessary for me to do little more than to transcribe the language of the same Pope, Benedict XIV. I shall consider our teaching regarding the marriage contract when it takes jilace — i. between two Catholics; n. between two Christians, neither of whom is a Catholic; and in. between parties, one of whom is a Catholic, and the other belongs to some other denomina- tion of Christians. I. — When the contracting parties are both Roman Catholics, Benedict XIV. gives the fol- lowing instructions in a letter to Paid Simon, of St. Joseph, a discalced Carmelite, dated 1 7th September, 1746.+ “You have represented to us that Catholics, when about to contract marriage with other Catholics, not unfrecjucntly go to the civil magistrate, or heretical minister, before u hom they are obliged to present themselves by the laws of their country, and, in their presence, mutually express the matrimonial consent ; the renewal of which, however, before the lawful minister of the Catholic Church, and two witnesses, according to the prece])t of the Council of Trent, they either altogether neglect, or defer for a long time ; and, in the meantime, they live together as if they were lawfully married. You ask us, what is to be thought of this consent which has been exjiressed before the cii il magistrate, or heretical minister? That we may answer your demands at once brieffy and clearly, and at the same time remove all ground of controversy, take the following as our decision. Wl lerever the decree of the Council of Trent (cap. 1, sess. 24. de Reformatione Matrimonii) has been promulgated and received, marriages contracted otherwise than before the lawful parish priest of either of the contracting parties, or another ]>riest acting by his authority, and two witnesses, are quite null and void in every way. We know, indeed, that there are theologians, who, even in the marriage of the faithful, so separate the contract from the sacrament, as to believe that the contract may sometimes be quite perfect without attaining to the excellence of a sacrament. But whatever may be thought of this ojiinion, of which we do not now say any thing, it can have nothing to do with the ])resent matter, as we are speaking of those who are bound by the law of the Council ot Trent, which clearly ])ro- nounces not only the sacrament, but the contract itself to be void, when the parties attempt to marry without observing the form prescribed by it; and, to use its own words, ‘ renders them altogether incapable of so contracting, and declares such contracts to be void.’ Where- fore, since a/!/o//r/s( the Catholics dwelling in those provinces this decree of the Council of Trent has been both promulgated and received, as we both acknowledge, it is clear that marriages contracted by Catholics before the civil magistrate, or heretical minister, and not also before the jiarish })riest of either of the contracting ])arties, and two witnesses, can be sustained neither as a sacrament nor as a contract, or be regarded as valid in any way. Nor can the reasons, on account of which wo have pronounced the marriage of tivo heretics, or of a Catholic and a heretic, to be valid in the united ])rovinces, without observing the form jirescribed bv Trent, be applied to the marriages which Catholics contract with each other, because both parties, in this case, acknowledge that they are bound by the decree of 4’rent, and jirofess obedience to its authority. Let Catholics, therefore, who are intrusted to vour care know, when they jiresent themselves before the civil magistrate, or heretical minister, for the purpose of contracting marriage, that they perform a purely civil act, by which they manifest their submission to the laws and ordinances of the temporal ruler; but that by such act no marriage is really solemnized by them. Let them know, that unless they shall have solemnized their marriage before the Catholic minister, and two ivitnesses, they can never be true and lawful husband and wife, either in the eyes of God, or of the Church. ... It will be vour duty, when a convenient opportunity shall present itself, to • S. Thorr..'is Aquinas contra Gentes, cap. 78, Apud Jto.'er De Impedinyntis Matrimonii, p. 96. f Num. III. Supplement! ad tom. 9, Supplemcnti Bullarii, BeneJicti XIV., p. 426-429, edit, in I2mo, Mecli- liua). 1827. ANSWERS TO PARER K. 385 oxjilain all tluv^c to iduals in detail, and witli that circiiin ^|)ecfion and eantion \\dii(di rirciunstanc(>s shall show to 1 k‘ necessary; and, at the sa>ne time, to admonish all, that inasmmdi as they may he ohiio-ed to comply with the usao'es ol’tlie counti’v, and the ordinances ofthe civil power, tliey shonld indeeil do so, hut without injury to reliy^ion, or the violation of the most lioly laws of the (’hurch, hy which the marria;fes of the fiuthfid are Governed and rei>adateil. You should also take care that two Ckitholics, who may have <^one through that civil and purely ])olitical ceremony in the presence of heretics, do not conduct themselves too familiarly towards eaidi other, nor li\-e in the same house, unless they shall have hound themselves hy true and le^i>itimate nuptials, accordino- to the forms prescrihed hy the Council of 'i'rent; for although that familiarity may he free from sin, it certainly is not free from the danger and sus])icion of sin, hoth of which should he shunned hy good and moral Christians. We know, moreover, that to avoid such dangers, it would he more advisahle for (latholics to solemnize marriage lawfidly, according to the rules of the Catholic Church, hefore going through the civil ceremony in ])resence of the secular magistrate, or heretical minister; but, as we learn from your letter that this cannot he done without danger and disturhance, you should, at least, use your utmost endeavours that they shall not delay long after having comjdied with the ordinances of the state, hefore manifesting their obedience to the laws of the Church, and entering into inanaage rightly and holilv, according to the form jn’escrihed hy the (Council of Trent.” Such are the rules hy which one of the most learned and illustrious Po]>es who ever sat on the ])ontiiical throne desires Catholics to regulate their conduct in relation to the matri- monial contract, in a country where the requirements of the ci\ il ])ower are not in accordance with the laws of the Catholic Church on this ini])ortant subject. I think it must he admitted, that, whilst imja-essing upon Catholics the absolute necessity of complying with the rules of the Church, in receiving what they believe to he a sacrament instituted by our J^ord Jesus (dirist, he does not fail to teach them dr.e respect and deference for the civil ])ow'er. II. — Yv'hen the parties are hoth Protestants. Of course in all these cases the qiiestion can only regard those countries in which the law of the Council of d’rent regarding clandes- tinity — that is, the law by which all marriages not contracteil in ju’esence of the parish ]>riest of one of the parties and two Avitnesses are declared to he void — has been j)roniulgated ; because in those places in which it has not been ])uhlished this form is not necessaiw for the A'allditv of any marriage. “ Regarding the marriages,” says the same Pope,* in a declaration, daterives the soul of the divine virtue of faith. A Catholic or a Protestant may deny a revealed doctrine through neglect, want of inquiry, or ignorance, cidj)able or iucidpable, and may, therefore, sin without depriving the soul of the habit of faith, and, couseciuently, without becoming an infidel or formal heretic. But if either the Protestant or the Catholic reject a sufficiently ju’oposed revealed truth, he thereby loses the habit of faith, and is no longer one of the faithful, but an infidel; because, as all divine faith rests on the veracity of Cod, he who rejects this veracity in one instance, voluntarily casts from him the motive of all supernatural faith, and, consequently, is deprived of a virtue whose acts he is no longer capable of eliciting. If the person who denies a revealed truth, which has been suHiciently proposed to him, has never been baptized, he is called, simply, an infidel. The name of positice infidels is ajqhied to such ])ersons to distinguish them from those to whom the Gospel has never been preached, and who are, therefore, in a state of nepalire infidelity. The infidelity of the former is sinful, that of the latter is involuntary and incul))able. If those who I’eject a revealed truth, which has been sufficiently }n'oj)osed to them, have been baptized, they also become infidels, and, generally speaking, heretics also. 1 say they generally become heretics, for a person who shoidd, by his own private study of Scrij)ture, make out a revealed truth which has neither been proposed as an article of faith by the Church, nor is received as such by the faithful, would, if he denied that truth, reject the divine voracity, and deprive his soul of the virtue of divine faith by committing the sin of infidelity, but he would not thereby be a heretic so long, at least, as ho contented himself with denying the doctrine without saying that he believed it to be contained in the ins])ired volume. In order, therefore, that a person should be guilty of the sin of heresy according to our teaching, it is necessary that he should be first a Christian; second, that he should pertinaciously deny a revealed doctrine; third, that it should have been so proposed to him that his rejection of the truth is a voluntary act on his part; and fourth, that the rejected doctrine should have been defined to be an article of faith by the Roman Catholic Church, which we, of course, teach and believe to be the true Church of Christ, the “ pillar and the ground of truth.” The sin of heresy must, therefore, always include an act of infidelity, inasmuch as it must contain a formal or virtual denial of the divine veracity. But every sin of infidelity does not necessarily include heresy, because it might consist in the rejection of a proposition known by the individual who rejects it to be revealed, and, therefore, sufficiently proposed to him as an article of divine faith, thoxigh not being pro])osed by the Church it is not an article of Catholic faith, and, consequently, its rejection does not constitute the crime of heresy, but of infidelity. We teach that the Church of Christ consists of an exterior visible part, which we call the body, and of an interior invisible part, which we call the soul. Because the Church, being a “ moral body” or society of men, must, like evei’y society, have certain external bonds by which its various members are unitetl together, and an internal or vital pjrinciple by which it is guided and governed. The soul of the Church consists of sanctifying gi’ace, the virtues of faith, hope, and charity, and the other supernatux’al gifts which God bestows upon the just, and by which they are intimately united with Him. The body of theClnirch is a society of Christians, the members of which are united with each other, and distinguished from the members of all other societies by the profession of the same faith, the communion of the same sacraments, and by submission to the government of pastors, of whom the Roman Pontiff is the chief and visible head upon earth. As in all other societies, a mutual intercourse exists between the soxxl and the body of the Church, but these parts are by no means co-extensive. All the just, and none but the just, belong adequately to the soul of the Church. As every grievous sin deprives the soul of sanctifying grace, so does it cut off the person who commits it from the soul of the Church so long as the sin remains unrepented of and miforgiven. Rut although every grievous sin robs the soul of sanctifying grace, it does not (unless it be a sin of infidelity) deprive the soul of the virtue of faith which remains, entitles the sinner to be still considered one of the faithful, and unites him, though impei'fectly, with the soul of the Church. Hence, I. — All adults, who receive the sacrament of baptism with the proper dispositions, and all children, without exception, who are validly ba])tized, no matter in what communion, belong to the soul of the Church of Christ, because they are in the state of grace and sanctification. II. — Not one of these, whether Catholic or Protestant, ceases to belong to the soul of the Church except by voluntarily and deliberately depriving himself of grace by the commission of mortal sin. III. — Every person. Catholic, as well as Protestant, deprives himself of sanctifying grace by the commission of one mortal sin, and will not be saved, unless that sin be repented of and forgiven through the mercy and satisfaction of our sole Saviour, Jesus Christ. IV. — No person loses the virtue of divine faith exce])t by a sin of infidelity. v. — As the body of the Church of Christ consists of all those who profess the same faith, are united in the same communicn, and submit to the government which He hath estab- lished, it not only includes sinners, but heretics and infidels also, provided they have been baptized; because the Church, being a visible society, includes all those who are united by those external bonds by which she is constituted a society, one in itself and dis- tinct from all others. Although, therefore, a Christian who rejects in his heart a revealed truth which hath been sufficiently proposed to him, loses at once the habit of faith, commits the sin of infidelity, and of heresv, also, if the proposition which he denies has been defined 2,d'l JtEV. G. CaOLLT, TIic sin of positive infidelity or of heresy is not committed except by a wilful rejection of the veracity of God. Difference between infidelity and heresy. The Cliurch of Clirist hath a body and soul. Who belong to the soul of the Church? Who belong to the body of the Church? 38S MAYNOOTII CO:\miSSION. Kev. G. Ckolly. The Church of Christ includes occult heretics and baptized infidels. Members of heretical societies may not be jjuilty of the sin of heresy, and, there- fore, ma}' not be real heretics. Catholic doctrine respecting material and formal heresy. Cardinal De Lugo In what sense Chris- tian societies, which are separated from the Homan Catholic Church, are called heretical. to I;c of’ fnitli by the Cliurcli, and severs himself entirely from the soul of the Cliurcli, yet he does not cease to he a memher of lier l;ody or visible ]iart, so lono- us the heresy is con- fined to his mind, or is oidy uttered privately. J5nt, if he utter the heresy, he v ill incur the ])enaltv of excommunication, which will not be the case so lono- as he coniines it to his own breast, because the (’hurcii Judoeth not of internal thinoint two eminent (merman theologians. La Croix and Layman. La Croix+, after having stated that there were persons who doubted whether there could be any jmrely material heretics in Germany, because they had the evidence of the truth of the Homan Catholic Clmrch before their eves, proceeds thus: “ Tt apjiears more probable that, even in Germany, there are persons who are only material heretics, because there are ])crsons there so sinqile or preoccupied by the doctrine of their ministers, that they firmly think they should not doubt about their faith ; ami, at the same time, they act so sincerely towards God in their own conscience, that, if they knew their own faith to be false, they would immediately embrace ours. Such persons are not formal, Imt only material heretics ; and that there are many such is attested by a great number of confessors and by authors of the largest experi- * Carflin.-ilis De Lupo de Virtute Fidel Divina?, disputatio xx., sectio 1. + De Fide cap. iv., Dubium iii.. Quas.^tio 21, Nos. !».3 and 94. He (piotes, in support of his opinion, amongst many utliers, the canonist Iteiffenstuel, who declares that material heretics, of whom there are many in heretical societies, are by no means to be reckoned among heretics. ANSWEIIS TO PAPER K. 38'J cncc in Oovinaiiy. 3'alcs esse nrakos testantiir confessarii i)luriini in Gcnnania autliorcsqiie exj)e;'ientissi:ni.’' OF Layman, Muzarelli, a celebrated Roman tlieolo^fian of tlie present century, declares that he w.is second to scarcely any writer on Moral d heoloo'y, “ Ooctissi- imis theoloo'iis inoralis,, ant nulli ant fere mdli secnndiis.”* Ainono;st other reasons For permitting Catholic priests to hapti/.e the children oF heretics, iF their i)arents shonld voluntarily send them For that purpose, he says, ‘‘ It may also he added, that though they may he taught False doctrines hy their parents or heretical miinsters, they sometimes lahonr under ignorance whicdi is ditiicnlt to he overcome, and are not pertinacious heretics; and conse [iiently, that they retain the giFt oF Faith which they have received in baptism, and may he saved iF they grieve with true contrition For the sins committed aFter ha])tism.”f De Lugo also says that such jjcrsons may he excused For a long time hy “ invincible igno- rance, because neither the (hvtliolic doctrines 'ojjposed to their errors, nor the serious obli- gation oF inepuring into and examining the motives oFour religion are sulllciently [woposed to them.'d Nor do Catholic theologians — (and when I (juote approved writers I wish to he under- stood to he confirming my own teaching by their authority) — propound the irrational opinion that every |)erson who is not a member oF the Roman Catholic Church is hound to rush into it without consideration or reflection. St. Alphonsus Liguori, ■who has been recently canonized — -a process which proves that his writings do not lean too mnch towards heresy — has extracted, without correction, the Following three pro})ositions From Bnsem- haum, whose work he has made the text-book oFhis Theology: 1. A heretic, so long as he judges his own sect to l)e more credible or equally credible (with the Catholic Church) is not bound to believe, because, as the Faith is not proposed to him, he would act imprudently by doing so. 2. When those who arc brought up in heresy are persuaded that we cast From us and ])ei'secute the Word oF God, that we are idolaters, pestilent deceivers, an.d that avc should thereFore be avoided as a pestilence, they cannot, whilst this persuasion remains, hear us with a saFe conscience, and they labour under invincible i/fiorance, since they do not doulit that they are in a good way. 3. IF a doubt occurs to these persons about the truth oF their own sect, they are obliged to make Further im^uiries, and to l)eg oF God to enlighten them. And if’ our Faith be then sufficiently proposed to them, they are obliged to embrace it."§ Nothing could be more reasonable than what is here stated. All those members, thereFore, of a heretical society, who are invincibly ignorant, whilst professing objective heresy, that they are contradicting a revealed truth, are not only not guilty of the sin of heresy, but, so far as this denial is concerned, are not guilty of any sin whatever. “ And indeed,” says De Lugo,|| “ I frankly confess that he to whom the authority of the Church to define articles of faith is not sufficiently pro])osed, can inculpably deny her authority, and can still make acts of Christian faith in certain mysteries, (as the Trinity and Incarnation), for whose credibility other motives are sufficiently proposed to him.” Again, all those avho deny the faith through ignorance, no matter liow gross and cidpable it may be, do indeed sin ; as from sloth, negligence, worldliness, and other bad motives, they may transgress any other precept of the Gospel, Imt Avhether they be I^rotestants or Catho- lics, they do not commit the sin of heresy. With regard to Roman Catholics, this is admitted by all our writers, because, even whilst they deny some particular doctrine of the Church through sinful ignorance, they still a irtually assent to it in their belief of all that tlie Church teaches; Avhich must be a paramount belief; that is, their assent to all the Church teaches must be of such a nature that the moment they kuoAv any proposition to be defined by her, they are prepared to receive it Avithout delay or liesitation. Some per- sons imagined that this doctrine ought not to be extended to heretics avIio reject the autho- rity of the Roman Catholic Church through culpable ignorance, because their deTiial of a jKirticular doctrine is not counteracted by any paramount general belief. De Lugo dis- cusses this matter Avith Ids usual ability. IlaA'ing stated the general doctrine, that igno- rance excuses from heresy, he continues thus:^ “There remain some difficulties. First, Avith regard to Avhat Ave have just said ; if the ignorance regard the A-ery authority of the Church Avhich a person Avishes to be ignorant of on purpose thul he niaij retain his errors, Avill this also excuse, so that not even he Avill be, properly speaking, a heretic? The reason ■* De TtesuHs Moralium opiniorum. Muzarclli held the office of theologian to the penitentiary at Rome, Avhich is equivalent to that of Pope's theologian, and his opinion may serve to show the estimation in which Layman’s work is still held at Rome. + Layman, lib. v., tract 2, cap. vi., No. 12. Ilis Avords are: “ Addi etiam potest, tametsi a parentibus et ministris suis hsercticis falsa dogmata edoceantur ; interdum ignorantia difficulter vincibili laborare et pertinaces haireticos non es.«e, ut proinde tales d'jnum fidei baiJtismalis retineant, et salvari possunt, si de peccatis post bap- tismum commissls, vera contritione doleant.” J Lugo De Fide disputatio xxi., sect. 1, No. 2.3, “ Credo etiam,” inquit, “ non paucos ex iis (hajreticis) excu- sari per longum tempus a peccato infidelitatis,” (et proinde h®resis) “ignorantia invincibili, quia nec iis suffi- cienter proponuutur Catholica dogmata suis erroribus contraria, nec obligatio gravis inquirendi et examinandi motiva nostra religionis.” S. Alphonsus de Pratcepto Fidei cap. ii.. No. 9. [| De Lugo De Fide, Disputatio xvii., sect. G. No. 122. ^ Ibid riisp. XX. sect. G, No. 193, “ An si ignorantia sit circa ipsam Ecclesi® auctoritatem, quam aliquis ex industria vult ignorare, ut suos errores retincat, excuset etiam, nec ille sit proprie h®reticus. Ratio dubitandi est, quia si ita errat circa ipsam auctoritatem Ecclesi® Catholic®, non videtur posse esse Catholicus, nec habere actum, quo universalitcr velit omnia credere, qu® Ecclesia Catholica jjroponit, et credit, cum ipsam Ecclesi® Catholic® .auctoritatem infallibilem in proponendo neget ; ergo ille error non est tails cum quo possit adhuc stare voluntas credendi in universum cum Ecclesia ratione cujus compossibilitatls dicebamus ignorantiam etiam affec- tatam non constituerc li»reticum proprie et in rigore.” Ri;v. G. Crolly. A member of a heret- ical society may be only a material heretic, and may be saved if he die either Avithotit having for- feited the gr.ace of baptism by grievous sin or avith true sorrow for tlie sins he has committed. Persons who have been eductited in societies separated from the Roman Catholic Church, cannot enter that Church so long as they believe her faith to be false. Members of heretical societies, who are invincibly ignorant of the truth of the Roman Catholic Church, may incul- pably reject her authority, and may, at the same time, make true acts of faith respecting other articles which are sufficiently pro- posed to them. 390 MAYNOOTH COMMISSION. Hev. G. (.’hollv. A per.'Oii iDiiy reject both tlie trutli and autl'.ority oC tlie Koinan Ciitliolie Church tlirough iftnoraucc, ami may still be a Catliolic. for doubting is, that if lie so errs about the very authority of the Catholic Chiu’cli, it does not seem possible that he can he a Catliolic nor make an act by which he wishes universally to believe all that the Catholic Church jirojioses and believes, since the infallibility of the Catholic Church herself in jiroposing articles of faith is denied by him. Therefore, this error is not one which can be reconciled with the will of believing universally with the Church, on account of which compatibility we said that even affected ignorance did not constitute a heretic in the proper and rigorous meaning of the term.” He rejilies to this objection, first, by quoting the authority of another celebrated Roman Catholic theologian,* who maintains that, in ortler to constitute heretical j)ertinaclty it is not enough fcjr a person to know that the doctrine which he denies has been ju’oposed by the Church, but that he must know, moreover, that the Church herself, which proposes the doctrine, is the true Church, and that the doctrine which ahe teaches, ex cathedra, is true doctrine. De Lugo then proceeds to explain and confirm this doctrine: “ The reason is clear both from what we have said and from the doctrine of the authors whom we have cited ; because, he who is ignorant of the definition and ])roposition of the Church is neither ])ertinacious nor a heretic, for he can still have the desire of firndy believing whatever the Church proposes ; now, in the same manner, he who is ignorant of the authority of the Church, can still have the desire of captivating his intellect to the obedience of faith, and of believing firmly whatever shall have been sufficientli/ proposed as revealed hij God. Therefore neither will ho be an infidel. For, as he is not a heretic wdio receives all that the Church has suffi- ciently proposed, so neither will the man be an infidel who has the desire of firmly believing whatever faith pro])oses, or whatever shall have been sufficiently ])ro])osed as revealed by fJod. Nor indeed is faith lost excej)t by a rejection of the formal object of faith, which is the veracity and testimony of God, as the same Suarez argues. But if he he not an infidel neither can he be a heretic, because heresy is a species of infidelity. AVhether, therefore, he be ignorant of the proposition of the Church or of her aiithority, he can be not an infidel, and therefore not a heretic, if he can, at the same time, have the will of believing all that shall have been sufficiently ju’oposed to him as revealed by God.” “ To the reason for doubting this doctrine which we have just mentioned, it may be answered, that in this case such a per.'posing a sufficient knowledge of the authority of this Church to have been obtained, which seems sufficient, formally speaking, to make him think, at least, in common with the Church, although, tlirough ignorance, he dissents materially from her in matters of belief. ’t He ])i’oceeds to consider whether a man be a heretic who, through culpable ignorance, not only takes his faith from a false Church, and rejects that which is jjroposed by the true Church, but who, moreover, thinks he should not I’eceive his belief from any church, but should rely entirely on the private spirit. lie even supposes him to imagine, through gross ignorance, that God could never s]>eak through a Church, and, therefore, to ha-\'e come to the absolute determination of rejecting all ]>ossible Church aiithority, in j)roposing matters of faith. This last case he thinks scarcely possible, because it is manifest that every one who can speak himself, can also manifest his will through the medium of others; “and, therefore, it is repugnant that any one should wish to believe God, and should not, at the same time, implicitly determine to believe the same God, speaking through the ministers of His Church, ])i’ovided it slimdd be sufficiently ]woved that they had authority to propose the word of God. Yet making this hypothesis, be it j)ossible or impossible,” he continues, “if that man should have the universal determination of believing God, whenever his revelation should be evidently credible, although, on account of that culpable ignorance, he should believe that God could never speak through a Church, and, therefore, should have formed an actual universal determination not to believe a Church, because, in fact, God will never speak by a Church ; still that man would not be, properly, either an infidel or a heretic. And though he should not be called a Catholic, quite absolutely, yet he coidd he called a Catholic as it were conditionally. He could not be so called, quite absolutely, on account of his ])erfectly absolute determination never to believe a Church. But he could l)e called a Catholic conditionally; because in that efficacious desire of believing every thing revealed by God, as often as revelation should be sufficiently ci’edible, is implicitly contained a con- ditional desire of believing the Church, if, be the thing possible or impossible, it should be sufficiently manifest that the revelation of God was ju’oposed by the Cluu'ch, which con- ditional desire woidd suffice to prevent ]>ertinacity against the Church. For the determina- tion to resist the authority of the Cluu’ch, if it were sufficiently proposed, could not coexist * Siiarez de Fide, disputatio xi.v., sect. 3, Ko. 12. For heretical pertinacity he requires “ cognitionem vel notitiam suffleientem auctoritatis Ecclesia; et quod doceat seu proponat veritatem illam, contra quam aliquis errat. And No. 14, he defines the requisite knowledge of the Church to be that, per quam ita proponitur Eccle- sia; auctoritas, ut obliget hominuin ad credendum, et ipsam esse veram Ecclesiam, et veram etiam doctrinam qufB ex cathedra docetur. Grotius, says Suarez, was so profound a philosopher and theologian that it was scarcely possible to find his equal. Ilis treatise on laws is quoted as an authority by Burke. t Do Lugo, ibid. 196-199. I transcribe the orignal of the last paragraph quoted in the text; “ Ad rationem ergo dubitandi responderi potest, hunc eo casu posse adhuc esse Catholicuni, quia cum ignor.antia de auctoritate et veritate Ecclesiae, potest luabere propositum, etvoluntatem credendi omnia, qua; proponet aliqua vera Ecclesia, quoties sufticienter proposita tuerit, infallibilis auctoritas illius Ecclesise, in qua voluntate includitur implicite voluntas credendi omnia quse ha;c nostra Ecclesia proposuerit, posita notitia sufficienti de auctoritate hujus Ecclesia;, quod sufiBciens videtur formaliter loquendo, ad lentiendum saltern in communi cum Ecclesia Catholica, quamvis materialiter propter ignorantiam ab ea in rebus creditis dissentiat.” ANSWERS TO PAPER K. 391 with that conditional desire, providetl it were efficacious, as I suppose it to be; and it is this determination that constitutes the pertinacity ro({uired for lieresy.”* Wlien, therefore. Catholic writers speak of an individual who has been hajdized and educated outside of the coimmiuion of the Roman Catholic Clmrcli as a heretic, they do not mean to say that he is a real formal heretic — tliis is often a secret knowm to (iod alone - — but siiu])ly that he belongs to a society wliich is se]>arated from tlie Churcli, aiid which professes doctrine w hicli slie has })rouounce I to be false and heretical. Sucli a person, according to the doctrine of De Lugo, might })ossess the virtue of divine faith; and he a Catholic, even though he rejected the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, through cul|)able or inculpable ignorance. Without delaying to set down a summary of tlie doctrine which I have quoted from authors of the highest reputation in the Roman Catholic Church, and merely directing particular attention to their words, I proceed, at once, to consider the punishments of heretics. The punishments of heresy are divided into s])iritiial and temporal. The principal S])iritual punishment of heresy is excommunication, by wdiicli a person is de])i’ived, not of divine grace, or of faith, hope, or charity, but of the use of certain public spiritual benefits, the administration of which Christ has left to his Church, such as the sacrifice of the Mass, the administi’ation and receiving of the Sacraments, the public ])rayers of the Church, Let us see what is necessary to incur these penalties. In the first place, it is necessary that the crime be committed with _/!/// deliberation. ^'■Full deliberation is also,” says De Lugo,-}- “necessary in order that any one be a heretic punishable by ecclesiastical penalties, because without that there is no mortal sin; and althongh, in this matter, the sin may be venial, from want of full deliberation: that, however, is not called lieresy (the italics are De Lugo’s) nor is it punished by the Church, Avhich has applied this name to that heresy alone wdiich is committed by a mortal sin, and wdth full deliberation.” Secondly, not only invincible ignorance, and that wdiich is not mortally but only vcnially culpable, but every kind of ignorance, even gross and atfected, wdiether it regards the truth and infallibility of the Church herself, or the fact of such a doctrine having been ])i’oposcd by her, “excuses from heresy, ami the punishment of heretics" That it excuses from the sin of heresy must be evident from the authorities I have already adduced, and whatever excuses from the sin of heres)/, also excuses from the spiritual penalties which tlie Church has attached to that crime. This is expressly taught by Scavini, in his tract on Faith, w hich is at ])resent the Maynooth class-book. “AVhat,” he asks, (tom ii., p. 450,) “ought to be the nature of the heresy on account of wdiich an excommunication is incurred ? I answer, it ought to be formal and manifested externally by some morally bad action, and with the intention of assertiny it ; for if it were otherwise, for instance, if it w^ere only material lieresy, or united wdth culpable ignorance, though little or no diligence had been employed in seeking the truth, nay, more probably, though the ignorance were expressly desired, the penalty would by no means be incurred.” J De Lugo says, “ It is a celebrated question wdiether it be necessary that a man should opjiose himself knowdngly (to the Church), so that any, even culpable ignorance, though it does, not excuse from grievous sin, excuses, nevertheless, from heresy and its punishments. Concerning invincible ignorance, and that also which is not mortally but only venially culpable, there is no doubt but it excuses, since he can neither be a heretic, nor incur the juinishments of heretics, wdthout mortal sin. „ . . . The moi’e true and more common opinion declares, that ignorance, of wdiatever kind it be, even yross and studied, excuses from heresy, and from the punishments of heretics."^ From this doctrine of De Lugo, a professor of theology, in Prior Park, in England, wdio published, in 1841, a Compendium of Theology, for the use of that seminary, wdth the appi’obation of the Right Rev. Dr. Baines, then Vicar-Apostolic of the Westei’n District, teaches, that amongst those wdio are born and educated in sects separated from the Catholic Church, there are few formal heretics, and, consequently, few who inciu' the penalty of excommunication. [| With regard to the infliction of “ temporal punishments” on heretics, there can he no difficulty as far as the Church is concerned, for since she has no temporal powder she cannot * Si ille homo haberet vohintatem universalem credemU Deo, quoties ejus revolatio esset evidenter credibilis etiam si propter ignorantiam illain culp.abilem crederet, Deum non posse unquam per Ecclesiam loqui, et ideo haberet voluntatem absolutam non credendi de facto Ecclesiae, quia de facto Deus nunquam per Ecclesiam loqiietur, adhuc homo ille non esset proprie infidelis atque adeo nec haereticus. Catholicus autem non esset dicendus omnino absolute, posset tamen dici Catholicus quasi couditionate. Non quidem absolute omnino, quia haberet voluntatem omnino absolutam nunquam credendi Ecclesiae. Couditionate vero posset dici Catholicus, quia in voluntate ilia efficaci credendi Deo omne revelatum, quoties revelatio esset sufEcienter credibilis, contineretur implicite conditionalis voluntas credendi Ecclesiae si per possibile vel impossibile, constaret sufficienter, quod revelatio Dei per Ecclesiam proponeretur, quae voluntas comiitionata sutScerct ad impediendam pertinaciam contra Ecclesiam : nam cum ilia voluntate conditionata, si elHcax esset (ut suppouo) non posset stare voluntas resistendi auctoritati Ecclesi® sufficienter propositae in qua voluntate consistit pertinacia ad hasresim requisita De Ldgo, Ibid., No. 201. t Disput. XX., Sect, iv., § 3, No. 153. t Qualis esse debet haeresis ut excommunicatio inourratur ? — E. Debet esse formaUs et exterius manifestata per aliqitam actionen moraliter malatn, et animo earn asscrendi ; si enim aliter esset, v. g. si esset mere materialis, vel conjuncta cum ignorantia culpabili licet supina, imo probabilius licet affectata . . . pcena minime incurreretur. The italics are the author’s. I have paraphrased rather than translated the words supine and affected, to render the author’s meaning intelligible. The explanation which I have given of these technical terms is taken from the author himself. — Tom. i., p. 33. § Disput, XX., Sect, vi.. No. 171 & 174. — I quote as much of these passages as is necessary for my purpose. “Quaestio Celebris est, an requiratur quod se se scienter opponat, itaut quaelibet ignorantia etiam culpabilis licet non excuset a peccato gravi, excuset tamen ab haeresi et ejus poenis. De ignorantia invincibili et de ea etiam qua; non est mortaliter culpabilis, sed solum venialiter, non est dubium quod excuset, cum non possit esse ha:re- ticus, nec haereticorum poenas incurrere sine peccato mortali .... verior et communior sententia dicit, quamUbet ignorantiam, etiam crassam et affectatam, excusare ab haeresi et haereticorum poenis. II Rey, Tractatus de Decalogo., No. 1 17. — His words are, “In communionibus a Catholica distinctis, paucos esse formales haereticos . . . paucos inter sectas a nobis divisas esse excommunicationi obnoxios. Rev. G. Ckolly. Punishments of heresy of two kinds, spiritual and temporal. Spiritual punisli- ments of heresy. Not only inculpable ignorance of the Church herself, as well as of the doc- trine which she pro- poses, but even tliat which is grievously sinful or expressly desired, excuses from the sin of heresy and from its penalties. 392 MAYNOOTII CO:\BIlSSIOX. liEv. G. Crolev. The Church cannot inflict temporal punishments on heretics. Of the right of the State to inflict tem- poral punishments on heretics. The e.xfcnt of the civil authority over those who are subject to it. inflict tcinportil ])uni,slinieiits. When sjteakinw of the tlifl’erence hotween ‘‘ tem})oral and spiritual matters,” I had occasion to e,\})!aiu the nature of the spiritual jienalties by which alone she can ])unish transuressors. Xor c:in there be tiny doubt as to the i>ower of the State, taking the (jiiestion as it has been projiosed, for it regards the employment of jdiysical coercion, on account of the crime of hei'esy, to Protestants incorporated into a nation, or forming a sect tolerated by the laws.” It would, in fact, be a jialpable contradiction in terms to say that a sect was tolerated by the civil law, and at the same time that the State could use compulsion towards it on account of its religious ojiinions. Put, perha])S, it may not be amiss to add a few words upon this much agitated (juestion. If, ill the Christian disjienSation, the civil ruler were ap])ointed the judge of religious con- ti’oversies, or had received an exju’ess commission to ])unisli heresy, the doctrine of state perse- cution (if, making this hypothesis, such a term could be used,) would be jilain and obvious. Put, ill fact, the Christian revelation has conferred no such power on the civil ruler. That revelation was jierfected whilst the rulers of the Avorld wore all Pagans; and it was towards these that Christ and His ^Vpostles preached the duty of civil obedience. Their preaching did not contain any new jiositiA'e doctrine on this head — it was simply a (dear development of the jirinciples of the natural law. The obedience due to Pagan princes Avas undoubtedjA' con- fined to temporal matters. In spirituals the early Christians shoAved by tlieir conduct that they considered themselA'es bound to disobey the commands of temjioral rulers, and that they ought to use the AA'ords of the blessed A])ostle Peter, to obey God rather than men. For three hundred years after the preaching of the Gosjiel this state of things continued — princes persecuted religious belief tniJiiKth/, and Christians ahvays jiisdji resisted, and yet, if it be true, that natural law gives to ciA’il rulers poAver over tlieir subjects in sjiiritiial matters, the.se princes really possessed a ])OAver Avhich they ncA-er exercised, but to tlnvart and oppose the Avill of God ! I do not see Iioav it is possible to give temjioral rulers the poAver of ])unishing religious error Avithout making them the judges of religious truth ; for, as each of them Avill hold the faith professed by himself, no matter Iioav absurd it inaA" be, to be true, and that Avhich is ojijiosed to it to be false, his punishments Avill ahvays fall on those AA’ho, hoAvever justly, dissent from himself. Practically it Avould lead to this, that the strong would jsersecute the Aveak. Nor is this a merely theoretical conse([uence, but a fact confirmed by Avoful experience. “The toleration of heresy,” says Sir James ^Mackintosh,* “ Avas deemed by men of all persuasions to be as unreasonable as it Avould iioav be thought to ]>ropose the iinjiunity of murder. The ojieu exercise of any Avor^hip except that established by law Avas considered a mutinous disregard of laAvful authority, in Avhich ];erseverance Avas accounted a A ery culpable contumacy.” . . . “ Wherever the Church aaus reformed by the gOA’ernment, as in all Lutheran, and in most Calvinistic countries, as aa cII as in England, the receh'ed ojdnion Avas that this authority (to interpret Holy Writ,) belonged to the civil lawgivers of each country; a doctrine Avhich, if understood, of the belief, the feelings, and the Avorship of religion, entirely overthroAvs its nature, but, if limited to its legal endow- ments and ju’ivileges, is no more than an identical proposition. Ail these Churches agreed in the grosser dejiarture from their mvn ])rinci[)les, Avhich led them to punish CA'en Avith death, a dissent from the creeds, Avhich they, by their dissent from human authoritA', had built on the ruins of a system adojited by all nations for many ages : they acted as if they were infallible, though theA’ Avaged Avar against that proud Avord. In order to escape the visible necessity of granting that lilierty of private judgment to all mankind, Avhich could alone justify their oavu assaults on Popes and councils, they, in efl'ect, A’ested a despotic poAver OA'cr the utterance of religious doctrines in lay soA’ereigns, Avho luvl not even the recom- mendation of professing to knoAv the subject in dis])ute.”f I do not allude to this subject for the ])ur]H)se of recrimination, but sim])ly to shoAv that no matter Iioav loudh’ a sect proclaimed liberty of conscience, it no sooner got the ujijier hand than it took up the Aveapons of ])ersecution, the use of AA’hich it had a iolently deprecated Avhilst th.ev Avere Avielded by its adversary. I think this supplies a strong argument against the right of the State to punish religious oiiinioiis, sini])ly liecause they are deemed to be false ; because, although the abuse of a poAver does not disprove its existence, yet I cannot belicA'e that God intended religious error to lie arrested by the action of a jioAver Avhich he foresaAV Avould be more fre(|uently opjiosed to truth than to falsehood — a poAver Avhich, for three luuidred years after the preaching of Ilis Gos])el he commanded all Christians to disobey in s]iiritual matters — a poAyer, against Avhose constant and Avicked persecutions He forcAvarned His folloAyers. The authority of the ciA’il ruler does not extend directly to religion — he has an adminis- tratiye jioAver oyer the temjMiral jiroperty of his subjects, but not OA’er their conscience. Faith, to be accejitable to God, must be the homage of the heart. Coercion can only make hypocrites. The ciyil magistrate can haye no right to force his faith ujion his subjects except it be true; if the subject belicA’e it to be fiilse it AAould be a crime to embrace it, and if he be jmnished for his refusal he Avill be jmnished for obeying God rather than man. Finally, cA’en though the ciyil ruler should jirofess the true faith before jmnishing an indiyidual for holding a different faith, he should be sure that he AA’as really guiltA' of the crime of heresy — a thing Avhich, generally sjieaking, is knoAvn to God alone. Persons might die from obstinacy, passion, or prejudice rather than embrace a faith, the truth of Avhich is sufficiently jiroposed to them, but it must be oliAious that the persons most likely to be subjected to these punishments are sincere belieA’ers, Avhilst they cannot at all reach the careless, the inditferent, or the unbelieving libertine. * Hist, of England, toI. ii., p. 2G6. f Id. ibid, p. 254. ANSWERS TO PARER K. 303 It is a very ijross error to iinaart of the community, considering the ignoi'ance and weakness of fallen man. Now, the crime of heresy is undoubtedly far more directly opposed to the su])ernatural than to the natural order, ami not to rcj)cat the reasons already given for excluding the crime of pure heresy from the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate, 1 thiidv the punishment ofopinions, simply bec:mse they were judged to be false, has been, on the whole, ])roductive of infinitely more mischief than of advantage to civil society. I am very far from saying or teaching that the civil government has a right to be irreli- gious itself, or indifferent to the truth or falsehood of the creed embraced by the j)cople over whom it has charge, (’ivil rulers do not cease to be Christians, and the more elevated their jxisition, the more strongly are they bound to promote the truth of('hristby all lawful means, by word, example, protection, and encouragement. And although conscience be a anctuary into which no human ])ower has a right to enter, it does not follow that a man can jmblish what he ])leases under this pretext, Avithout the civil government having a right to take cognizance of his o])inions. Even Aristotle and the Pagan philoso]»hers taught that the civil power had a right to ])iinish those who ])ublished opinions snlo’ersive of all religion and of social order. The eleventh article of the declaration of the “ Rights of Alan,” published by the Constituent Assembly of France, declared: “ That the free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the most precious rights of man, and that every citizen can, therefore, s])cak and write, saving that he must answer for the abuse of this liberty in the cases determined by the law.” But under this jweeious right of man, not onlv public speeches and writings, but even the most ])rivate conversations and suspected thoughts Avere punished Avith death. And indeed the free communication of thought is not a more sacred right than the free use of a man’s hands, Avhich, howeA'er, he may not u.sc to kill his neigh- bour. The true policy of a Avise government lies betAveen the exercise of intolerance and the permission of licentiousness. The State has a right to assist, to cherish, and to sAi])poi’t the true religion. Tt is a moral person, having necessities, interests, and dangers aa Inch constantly admonish it to have recoAirse to God. No State can long subsist Avithout a i)ublic morality, the surest foundation of Avhich is time religion. Religion is the cement of the social edilice: it impresses the seal of divine a]iproval and protection on the social contract Avhich binds the citizens to each other, and to the go\-'ernment. But the protection and support Avhich the soA’creign bestoAvs on the religion of the State is by no means incoiu])atible Avith a Aviso toleration, Avhich respects liberty of conscience, and takes care not to punish, as crimes against the State, erroneous oj)inions Avhich do not interfere Avith ])ublic order or Avith the legitimate action of the civil poAver. Fenelon Avrote, Avith his usual Avisdom, to the Pretender — the son of James II. — “ Above all things noAmr force your subjects to change their religion. No human poAver can force the impenetrable intrenchment of the liberty of the heart. Force can never persuade men; it can onlv make hvpocrites. When kings meddle Avith religion, instead of protecting it, they reduce it to servitude. Grant civil toleration to all, not by apj)roving of all as equally good, but by suffering Avith patience all that God suffers, and by endeavouring to reclaim men by SAA'eet persuasion.” I fear there are many pei'sons to bo found in all communions Avho l)elioAm themseh’es to be snperexcellent Christians, avIio regard all those aa Iio presume to differ from them in any matter, lioAveAcr trifling, prefty much as the Pharisee regarded the sinful publican, Avho Avill not alloAv any thing even naturally good to exist outside of the little circle of intoler- ar.ee in Avhich they have Inscribed themselves, and avIio, being secure of their oavu sanctity, seem to have nothing to do but to damn their neighbours. These excellent ])ersons Avould do Avell to remember that the good Samaritan, Avhom our blessed Lord has set before all ages as an example of mercA’, Avas a member of a society Avhich did not belong to the true Church. I hope I shall be ])ardoned for concluding this question by an extr.ict from Burke, Avhich, 1 fancA', is not altogether inapplicable at the })resent time, for it speaks of persons avIio raise a cry about persecution abroad for the purpose of being alloAved to practise it at home, AA'hose charitA' takes Aving and fleeth beyond the sea, Avhilst their bitterness remains and festers in their native land. “ But I flatter my.self,” says Burke,f “ that not a feAv Avill be found AA'ho do not think that the names of Protestant and Papist can make any change in the nature of essential justice. Such men Avill not alloAv that to' be proj)er treatment to one of these denominations Avhich Avoidd be cruelty to the other, and Avhich converts its A’ery crime into the instrument of its defence ; they Avill hardly persuade themselves that Avhat was bad policA' in France can be good in Ireland; or that Avhat AA*as intolerable injustice in an arbitrarv monarch becomes, only by being more extended and more violent, an equitable procedure in a country professing to be governed by laAV. It is, hoAvever, impossible not to observe Avitli some concern that there are many also of a difterent disposition ; a number of j)ersons AA'hose minds are so formed, that they And the communion of religion to lie a close and an endearing tie, and their countiy to be no bond at all ; to Avhom common altars are a better relation than common habitations, and a common civil interest ; Avhose hearts are touched Avith the dislresacif offoreif/»e7s, and are abundantly aAvake to all the tendernesses of human feeling on such an occasion, even at the moment that they are inflicting the very * On this point, -which frequently recurs, I shall quote the authority of S. Thomas Aquinas in my answer to the next (3rd) question. t Tracts on the Popery Laws, vol. vi., p. 21, 22, of Eivingtou’s edition. Ki;v. G. Crolly. It chiefly and primarily regards temporal matters. May punisli those who publish o])inions subversive of all religion .and of social order. Dcclar.ation of the “ Riglits of Man ”by the Constituent As- sembly of Prance. The State should have a religion as Avell as a public morality, compatible with a wise tolera- tion. Opinion of Fenelon. Opinion of Burke. 3 394 MAYXOOTII CO:VLMISSTOX. Rev. G. Crollv. Revolutionists do not trouble them- selves about the Pope’s opinion as to the right or duty of rebellion. The Catholic Church never has decided, and never will decide, the question whether rebellion may some- times be justifiable, or is always wrong. Doctrine of the Maynooth College class-book. same distresses, or worse, on tlieir fellow-citizens without the least stiner of compassion or remorse, d’o commiserate tlie distresses of all men snlfering Innocently, perhaps, meritori- ously, is generons and very agreeable to the better part of our nature — a disposition that ought, by all means, to he cherished. Hut to transfer humanity from its natural basis, our legitimate and homebred connexions; to lose all feeling for those who have grown up by our sides, in our eyes, the benefit of whose cares and labours we have partaken from our birth, and meretriciously to hunt abroad after foreign affections, is snch a disarrangoTnent of the whole systein of oiir duties, that I do not kuf)w whether benevolence, so displaced, is not almost the same thing as destroyed, or what elfect bigotry conld have produced that is more fatal to society. This no one cmdd help observing who has seen our doors kindly and bountifully thrown open to foreign sufferers for conscience, whilst through the same ports were issuing fugitives of our own, driven from their country for a cause which, to an indiiferent j'lerson, woidd seem to be exactly similar, whilst we stood by without any sense of the Impropriety of this extraordinary scene, acctish)r/ and practi^iiu/ injut^lice. For my part, there is no circnmstance in all the contradictions of our most mysterious nature that apj)ears to be more humiliating than the use we are disposed to make of those sad examjdes which seem purposely marked for our correction and improvement. Every instance of fury and bigotry in other men, one shouhl think, would naturally fill us with a horror of that disj)osi- tion. The eft’ect, however, is directly contrary. We are inspired, it is time, with a very sutficient hatred of the but with no detestation at all of the proceeding. Nay, we are apt to urge our dislike of such measures as a reason for imitating them; ami by an almost incredible absurdity, liecause some powers have destroyed their country by their persecuting s])irif, to argue that we ought to retaliate on them by destroying our own. Such are the etfects, and such, T fear, have been the intention, of those numberless books which are daily jirinted and indnstrionsly spread, of the pcn^ecutiuns in other countries and other religio ns persuasions . ’ ’ 3. ^Vhat is the doctrine taught in INIaynooth upon the question, whether the Pope can deciile as to the right or duty of revolt against the civil power, so as to bind the consciences of Roman Catholics? In the first place I beg to observe, that since the decline of the opinion which attributed direct or Indirect temporal power to the Pope as head of the Church, this has become a purely speculative question. We have had abundant examples of revolutions in Roman Catholic countries, both in Europe and in America, within the memory of persons who are still living, and in no one instance has the sufiieiency of the cause been submitted to the Pope for his decision. Nay, when revolutions became the rage in 1843, the revolutionists in France, Hungary, and Italy, were so far from consulting the Pope that the latter drove him out of his own temporal dominions. Not to speak of Protestant States, wliich would naturally object to allowing the Pope to interfere in their disjmtes with their Catholic subjects. It is not jirobable that even Austria, in the early part of the outbreak of 1848, "Would have submitted h -r claims to her Italian dominions to the decision of the Pope; and, I think, few j)ersons will assert that he had authority from Christ to decide the question. Secondly, the decision of the lawfulness of revolt, in a particular case, su])poses the decision of the general question, that it is sometimes lawful to revolt against legitimately consti- tuted authority. Now this momentous question has never yet been, and I ventiu’e to ])redict that It never will he decided bv the Catholic Church. Because Christ and the inspired Apostles contented themselves with teaching the duty ot allegiance without saying any thing as to its limits. We learn from Josephus that at the period of the introduction of Christianity the Jews considered it to be unlawful to pay taxes to the Romans, ])ecause they considered that Clod was their only lawful temporal sovereign. He says, that in the time of Gessins Florus the “ nation began to grow mad with this distemper,” and that “ it was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree.”* These ])assages explain the cause of the Jews ]>utting the question to our Lord, “ What dost thou think, is it laAvfnl to give tribute to Cmsar or not?” and it is very probable that the prevalence of these opinions caused SS. Peter and Paid to impress so stronglv upon Christians the duty of allegiance to the civil ])ower; because many of them were converted Jews who would lie likely to carry into the Church the sentiments prevalent amongst their countrymen. The Church, from the earliest times to the jiresent dav, has exactly followed the example of Christ and the Apostles in teaching flie duty of ohedience to the civil power, without prescrihing any limits at which it ceased. The early fathers declared that though Christians could not violate the law of God at the bidding of princes, vet, would they rather suffer death than rebel, even when they might liaA’e done so Avith OA'ery prospect of success. This doctrine Avas repeated by the late Po]>e Gregory XVI. in 1832, and it is laid doAvn thus in onr class-hook; “ It is to be observed,” says Scavini, “ that it is not laAA’ful to rebel against princes Avho command unjust things ; for besides the hallucination AA'hich is to be dreaded, if this principle AA-ere once admitted, hoAv mam', and hoAv great disturbances and cauIs Avould arise? Wherefore, all things are to be patienth' borne after the example of the first Christians rather than rise in rebellion against snch jirinces. Christ also delivered himself to him that judged him unjusttjf'\ ThirdlA’. AWiilst the consent of jirlnces and of subjects, or the preAxalent opinion of Chris- tendom, invested the soA ereign Pontiff’ Avith temporal authority, either direct or indirect, he * Antiquitie.v e.ommon consent, or as the |)ossossor of a power before which all tcanporal authority should bend, when the good of the Church reipiired it. Put it would be absurd to deny him indirect temporal power, as we do, and at the same time to hold that he was invested by Christ with authority to decide the temporal disj)utes which migdit arise between a sovereign and his subjects, so as to declare the latter absolved from their alh'gianee, and at liberty to rebel, provided a fitting ojiportunity presented itself. This would be, in effect, to assert the indi- rect temporal power; because at no time could the Po])c ex])ect that a temporal sovereign would obey his mere mandate, commanding him to divest himself of his authority. He could only effect this by declaring his subjects justified in depriving him of it; ami he would in reality possess the same power if he were invested with divine authority to declare when subjects w'ere freed from their allegiance, and might lawfully depose their sovereign. Fourthly. The Cdmrch and Pope have a right to interpret the divine and natimd law', and to make, as well as interpret, ecclesiastical laws; but they have received no power from Christ either to make or to interpret civil laws. With regard to the last, their oflice is confined to the teaching of the duty of obedience to the temporal ruler in all lawful things. The Po ])0 can command his spiritual subjects to observe the laws of God, and of the Church, ami can deprive them of her communion if they ]>rove contumacious; but he cannot deprive them either of temporal property, or of temporal j)ower. A ja’ince does not cease to be a law fid ruler because he may be a sinner, a heretic, or an infidel. The contrary doctrine, wduch was taught by Wickliff' and Huss,* was condemned in the Council of Constance. It is not for violating, in his own person, the natural, divine, or ecclesiastical laws, that a civil ruler can be de])osed. lie is bouml not to enact iniipiitous laws; and if he does enact such laws, his subjects are bound not to obey them; but it does not follow that lie therefore loses his authority. SS. Peter and Paul, who taught the duty of obedience to persecuting jirinces in temporal matters, did not think so. Experience proves that very holy persons are sometimes very unfit to be temporal rulers ; and rice versa. The reason of this is, that although the civil ruler cannot ordain any thing contrary to God’s lawg yet, as the objects of his law' should be temporal things, so should his legislation be ordained to the end of promoting the temporal hapjdness of the community over which he presides, by providing, as far as possible, for its individual members, peace and competency, and the practice of those virtues which are necessary for the tram|uillity and happiness of civil society Hence, according to St. Thomas Aipiinas, as a human law' should be ordained for the good of the civil republic,| it should not prohibit all vices, but only the more grievous, and chiefly those, without the prevention of which human society cannot be preserved, as homicide, theft, and the like.f He adds, that as the di\ ine law princijially regards the duties of men to God, or to each other as children of God, and human law their duties to each other, as members of society, so the latter has not enacted any thing respecting the divine w'orship, except inasmuch as it regarded the common (temporal) good of mankind.§ Suarez also maintains that the civil power regards not future but present — not spiritual but temporal felicity, because the power of Christian princes is neither greater, nor different in nature, from that which was possessed by pagan rulers. It is quite clear, therefore, that the prince cannot be dejiosed for the violation of the natural, divine, or ecclesiastical law, but for the violation of the law's of society, and of the civil contract existing between himself and his subjects. In fact, he may govern exceedingly ill — he may invade the dearest privileges of his subjects without committing any sin at all, because lie may sincerely lielievo that he is only doing his duty. Nor do subjects view' the question with relation to the moral guilt or innocence of the ruler. Certainly no one ever thought of deposing, for their jier- sonal vices, or for their w'ant of religion, Charles I., Louis XVI., Chai'les X., Louis I'hilijipe, or the Popes, against w'hose temporal rule their subjects often rebelled. The best Pope may be a very poor temporal ruler; he is not divinely preserved from invading tbe temporal rights of other princes, or from violating the civil contract in his own dominions, and I therefore cannot see how' he can lie said, as head of the Church, to be the judge of temporal disputes in countries over w'hich he has no temporal jui'isdiction wdiatever. He can command subjects to obey their rulers ; not to act from bad motives — not to violate God’s huv ; but he has not been appointed by Christ the interpreter of civil law', or of civil contracts. Now', as rebellion is only justifiable w hen the prince violates the civil temporal rights of his sub- jects, the Pope has not only not been constituted jure divino judge of this matter, but he might not even make a good arbitrator ; for these temjioral rights are not only various in various countries, but are modified by the temper and dispositions of the people, and by the institutions to w'hich they have been accustomed. For instance, Englishmen would doubt- less consider themselves fully justified in rebelling, if the sovereign w'ere to attempt to set up a form of government which is perfectly legitimate in Russia, and in many other countries. I will not surrender one atom of the spiritual rights of the Pojic, as sujireme head of the Church u])on earth, nor of the tempoi’al rights of the Queen, as sovereign of these realms. The relation betw'een the sovereign power and the subjects of a state is not only temporal in its nature, and in the end of its institution, but it is, moreover, the very foundation on which the entire sujierstructure of civil gov ernment rests. To invest tbe ecclesiastical authority w'ith pow'er to declare tliat the tie w'hich binds sovereign and subjects together has been broken, and that allegiance is no longer a duty, would be, in effect, to destroy the independence of civil government. A sovereign may sin by misgoverning; and if he be a liKv. (i. Cuoi.i.y. 'Die Pope, as liead of the Church, lias not a atron with God, that what he wrote for our utility, without any injury to himself, we may learn for the advantage of others, without any injury to oui’selves.”* Now, I think greater care or caution could not be taken to guard the mind of a student from receiving anv evil effects from a study which certainly does not occupy eight days out of the whole four years of his theological course. 1 wish to God as much care were taken to ])reserve the ])uritv of the lay student’s mind, whilst accpiiring the knowledge necessary for other profes- sions, which almost constantly fix his attention on delicate and dangerous matters. The caution which the ecclesiastical student receives, never to study such matters himself, exce})t when it is imperatively necessary, and then, as far as possil)le, under the veil of a dead language, must teach him never to allude to them in the course of his ministry, except he be certain that it is his duty to ilo so, in order to save a soul. I .shall transcribe the instruction which our class-book on penance gives to a priest, as to the mode of using this knowledge in the confessional. In that part of the treatise on j)enance which refers to confession, s]>caking of useful or necessary interrogatories, on the ])art of the confessor, Dr. Delahogue says; " 1. "J’he con- fessor slioidd ask notlung from mere curiosity, but only that which is either necessary or useful to him, to know the state of his penitent's conscience, or to give hiin those salutary admonitions of which he stands in need ; otherwise the l)urden of confession, already heavy in itself, would apj)ear Intolerable to the faithful, and a handle would also be given to the calumnies of heretics, who call it the torture of consciences, and a means employed by ])i’iests to find out the secrets of families. 2. I'he minister of j)enance, in his interrogations, is bound to considt for the integritv of the confession of his penitents, and to attend to the jiarticular condition of each in making them; for he shouhl proceed in quite a different way with regard to well- educated and learned peiiitents, who are fatigued and offended by inconsiderate ([uestions, and with regard to rude and illiterate persons, who slioidd be frequently interrogated about the more common kinds of sin against the commandments of God — against faith, hoj)e, charity, and justice, and sometimes concerning the chief mysteries of the Christian religio)i. “ The interrogatories should also be different according to the different age and sex of penitents, especially with regard to the manner in which they should be made. Above * Dc Jlatrimonio Disputatio, v. cap. unium tom iii , p. 457. ANSWERS TO PARER K. 397 all, the firoatest prudence is iiecessarv Avlien there is (piestion of sin aojainst tlie sixth ])re- eept of the decaloone; both that youn«f ])eiiitents may not accinire a knowledge of tilings, their ignorance of which is the greatest safeguard of their innocence, and that even married jiersons may not blush to hear what never even entered into tlieir thouglits. In these things it is certainly far more expedient to stop within bounds, than to go lieyond them, by imlis- criminately proposing interrogatories which may be necessary in some cases."’ .... After stating that, in order to jnstity the confessor in proposing any sncli (inestioii, lie mnst have a trell-Jhinided presumption that the jienitent lias been guilty of the sin — ad hoc reipiiritur bene fnndata pneaumptio (pue jioenitenti sit (pinsi intrin.sccn (jnaterms confessarins illam nierito conci})cret ex anditis in ejns confessioiie — he adds, that he should not even then ask the ques- tion coarsely and nakedly, but hint at it in a way which will be intelligible to him if he has really committed it. “ Wherefore,” he continues, “ whatever evils may hapjien to them from alfected dissimnlation, they can impute only to themselves; whilst, on the contrary, the confessor should blame himself for all the mischief that would follow, if, by questioning a jienitent about crimes which were unknown to him before, he should impart to him the knowledge, and suiqilv him with the occasion of sinning; or if he should diminish, in the estimation of chaste spouses, both the dignity of the sacred tribunal, and the reputation of that decency which is suitable to the minister of the sacrament.”* Dr. Delahogne's Treatise on Penance is the class-book on this subject, and was, moreover, expre.ssly compiled for the use of the students of Maynooth. There is at ju'esent no fixed class-book on matrimonv. The ju'ofes.sors of theology recommended on this subject a trea- tise written by (’arriere, a French author, which is much referred to, and with copies of which many of the students were already supplied. But the Board of Trustees rejected the compendium of this treatise, which was recommended l)y the professors, because, in his larger work on the same subject, Carriere taught that a temporal ])rince coukl institute impediments which would annul both the contract and sacrament of marriage. “ If,” says he,f “ the jadnee should institute a diriment im])ediment, the sacrament will be void. . . . . But there is this difference between the two j)owers (civil and ecclesiastical) that the ])rince can give civil effects to a marriage rendered null by the Church, but the Church cannot give the consideration of a sacrament — that is, the s})iritual effect to a sacrament — rendered null by the prince.” This doctrine is not in the compendium. Had Carriere's Treatise on Matrimony been set aside before we laid our recommendation before the Board, we would certainly have selected Scavini on this, at the same time that we recommended his treatises on other parts of moral theology ; and now that the students are suj)plied with complete copies of this author, there can be no doubt that his matrimonv tract will be the class-book until siich time (if it shouhl ever arrive, which, as matters stand at ])resent, is not very probable,) as the professors shall be allowed an o}>portunity of compiling treatises of their own. There is no tract actuallv in use on matrimony, as this subject fnans no part of the studies of any of the students during the present academical year. P>ut, with regard to the (|uestion which I have been asked, there is no dispute amongst Catholic moralists ; for they nnanimously teach, as a fundamental principle, that delicate subjects arc only to be alluded to w hen it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of souls ; that even then they are to be approached with the greatest caution in speech, and with the greatest jmrity of intention, ami that it is better tractised by his angels. 1 can say from my OAvn experience, both as a student of Maynooth College, and as a . -* Delahogue Tractatus De Sacramento Pmnitentiaj, Quaestio vii., De Interrogationibus ex parte Confessarii neeessariis aut convenientihus, p. 17.A-6. t De Matrinionio, par. iii. sectio ii., cap. ii., No. a(j3. I l.,iidovicus Bail. tom. ii. cone. p. 811. § Praxis Confessarii, § iv., No. 20, p. 29. II Ibid, p. 127, Ed.' Lugduni, 1832. Bev. G. CuoLLr. With regard to sins .against tlie sixth jirccept in particular. General doctrine of modern approved Catholic writers on this subject. 398 .AIAYNOOTH C0M:\IISSI0N. Kev. G. CtlOLLY. My own teaching on this subject. Effects of the May- nooth teaching on tfie morality of the priests, And of the people ■who frequent the confessional. rio'w the duty of allegi.ance is inculcated. professor of theology of more than ten t'ears’ standing, that the teaching in tliis estahlishinent is characterized by the greatest purity, and tliat all grossness, even in language, is carefully avoided. I have always impressed upon the students, 1. That casuistry, like all other human pursuits, was liable to be jnishcd beyond due limits; and 2. That the immorality which might be ])revaleiit at one time, or in one country, might be utterly unknown at another time, and in another country. It would, therefore, be no excuse for an Irish ])riest to question a penitent about a sin, because he saw it in a book, or because its frccjuency Avas attested by an author. I esj)ecially referred to the spotless j)urity and fidelity observed by both husband and wife in the married state in this country; and consequently taught, that no matter what foreign authors might say to the contrary, no ([uestions should be ])ro])osed to them on these subjects. But certainly, if a tree be known by its fruits, teaching tvill be known by its results. I, therefore, fearlessly a}>])eal to the results of the teaching in May- nooth, as far as morality is concerned. Surely, if the class-books and lectures in hlaynooth were immoral — if the eyes and cars of the stu lents were familiarized Avith such toj)ics, the results of tliis training Avould be manifested in their liA^es. Yet I A'enture to assert that there is not in the Avhole Avorld a more moral body of young men than the stAulents of IMaynooth. And, although I am not blind to the intemperate zeal of some of the Irish j)riests in teiiq)oral matters, or to the lamentable fall of a feAv, yet I think that, as a body, the }>riests educated in iMay nooth need not fear a comparison, in the point of morality, of Avhich I am noAv speaking, Avith any other body, lay or clerical, in the Avorld. And, going beyond the jiriesthood, 1 think I can confidently apjieal to the morality of that ])ortion of the Irish jieople Avhich frequents the confessional. If I did not Avish to aA'oid invidious comparisons, I might quote the unim])eachable testimony of the Earl of Carlisle, to ju’ove that Irish maids and matrons are more modest than the English. I might even allude to the fact, that shortly after the abolition of the confessional, as a divine institution, in some parts of the Continent, Protestant ministers sought its re-establishment as a means of checking sin, and that the Liturgy of the Church of England still recommends it to the sinner on his death-bed, Avhen it surely Avould not countenance a practice Avhich it suspected of an immoral tendency. But a retort, AA'liich is generally resorted to in the absence of argu- ment, in tlie present instance is utterly unnecessary. The only fair AA'ay to test the results of ail institution on the morality of a jieople is to see Avhat effects it produces on those Avho practically adhere to it. Now, apply this test to the confessional. I defy any one to show me a cruel husband, an unfaithful Avife, a dishonest servant, amongst those Avho regularly apjiroach this sacred tribunal. I do not deny that an individual may so act, that he may make a trade of going to confession, as he may turn to a base purpose any other religious duty, hoAvever sacred. But I speak of the general, and, indeed, of the uiUA’ersal rule. A Catholic no sooner abandons himself to sin, than he abandons the confessional. This fact I assert, because it is notorious; and if he did not feel the confessional to be the greatest restraint upon his evil passions he Avould not act in this manner. 5. In Avhat manner do the professors Avho lecture in dogmatic theology, execute the pro- A'ision of the Statutes, c. a'., s. 3: — “Let the Professor of Dogmatic Theology strenuouslv exert himself to iiujiress on his class, that the allegiance Avhich they oAve to the Ivoyal ^Majesty cannot be relaxed or annulled by any poAA'er or authority Avhatsoever?” In AAdiat Avay is this doctrine s])ecifically inculcated? At the time Avhen the Statutes Avere draAvn up there Avere distinct professors of dogmatic ane can relax or annul the allegiance of subjects to their sovereign, it must be either, because as head of the Church, he possesses supreme teiu])oral power over all the world, or over all Christian countries, or because the tem|)oral is subject to the spiritual power, which it can, therefore, when necessary for the attainment of its ends, alter and fashion to suit its own purposes. Now, the first of these suppositions is so untenable, that it has been refuted Ijy Ifellannine, himself, and has never been revived since his time ; and the second desti’oys the independence of the civil power. In fact the two propositions — the civil power is supreme and independent, and no other ])Ower can relax or annul the allegiance due to it — ai’e identical. I, and I dare say, the other professors of theology also, teach this doctrine when ex])lain- ing the nature and obligation of oaths. Because, as neither the Pope nor the Church can relax or annul the simple duty of allegiance, a fortiori, neither the one nor the other can dispense in the oath of allegiance. The oath does not in any thing change the duty of alle- giance, but binds the subject not to A’iolate it Iry the new tie of religious reverence. When I was a student, this subject was explained to the freshmen, previously to their taking the oath of allegiance, by the late Dr. Crotty, then President of the College. I cannot say whether this is done at present or not, Imt, I think, a change could be very advantageously made, both in the ]>lan and time of taking the oath. I think, that instead of a junior dean march- ing the students out to town, the oath sliould be administered in the common hall of the College, in presence of the heads of the College, and of the Visitors; and that the time for administering it could be very properly deferred until the students should have commenced their divinity course, when they Avould be better able to understand the iustructions Avhich should be giA'eu on this subject, either by the President or by one of the senior professors, in presence of both superiors and students.* (). In Avhat manner are the pi’OA’isions of the Statute, c. v., s. 2, carrietl into effect:— “ Let the coui’se of theology for the year be arranged at a previous deliberation by the President, Vice-Pi’esident, Theological Professors, counsel being preA'iously entered into, scil. the heads of sacred science to be exjdained, the authors to be used, the books to be consulted; but if the professor shall, by his oavii industry, have compiled any portion of this course of iustriu'tion, Ave order that such should be submitted to the same Council, and a decision be AA’aited for ?” Is it the practice for the professors to submit ti'eatises of their oavii Kev. G. Crolly. 'I’lie manner of acting when civil and ec- clesiastical laws conic into collision. Civil allegianco cannot be relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatever. Neither the Pope nor the Church can relax or dispense in the oath of alle- giance. * De Legibus, p. 148. I h.avc quoted the words of this passage in answer to the third question. t Ibid., cap. vii., }>p. 157-8. f I have not considered myself justified in entering into any lengthened arguments on this matter, which was authoritatively settled, in 1789, by the decisions of the Universities of Louvain, Douay, Paris, Salamanca, Alcala, and V,alladolid. The questions proposed Avero : i Has the Pope, or Cardinals, or any body of men, or any individual of the Church of Rome, any civnl authority, poAver, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence Avhatsoever, within the realm of England ? ir Can the Pope, or Cardinals, or any body of men, or any individual of the Church of Rome, absolve or dispense Avith his M.ajesty’s .subjects from their oath of allegiance upon any pretext whatsoever ? iii. — Is there any principle in the tenets of the Catholic faith by which Catholics are justified in not keeping faith with heretics, or other persons differing from them in religious opinions, in any transactions, either of a public or private nature ? The aforesaid universities unanimouslv’ replied to these questions in the negative. I make a fcAv extracts from the reply of the university Avhich was the first to ansAver these three interrogatories. The Faculty of Divinity at Louvain having been assembled, “ It aa-rs agreed, Avith the unanimous assent of all the voices, to answer the first and second queries in the negative. . . The Faculty considers the folloAving propositions to be beyond controversy : —1 . That God is the author of the sov'ereign poAver of the State in civil matters. 2. That the sovereign poAver of the State is in civil matters subordinate to God alone. 3. It folioAvs that the sovereign poAver of the State is in noAvise(not even indirectly, as it is termed), subject to, or dependent upon, any other poAver, though it be a spiritual poAver, or even though it be instituted for eternal salvation. 4. It follows that no poAver whatever, even a s])iritual poAver, or a power instituted for eternal salvation, not even a cardinal, or a pope, or the whole body of the Church, though assembled in general council, can depriv'e the sovereign poAver of the State of its temporal rights, possessions, government, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence; nor subject it to any restraints or modifications. 5. That no man, nor the whole body of the Church, can, upon any ground or pretence whatever, weaken the bond of union betAveen the sovereign and the people ; still less can they absolve or free the subjects from their oath of allegiance. 6. The Faculty of Divinity of Louvain has no hesitation in applying these prin- ciples, in their fullest extent, to the kingdom, and the sovereign power of the kingdom, of England. . . . Proceeding to the third question (in perfect Avonder that such a question should be proposed), the faculty most posi- tively and unequivocally answers, “That there is not, and that there never has been, among Catholics, or in the doc- trines of the Church of Rome, any laAv or principle which makes it lawful for Catholics to break their faith with heretics, or others of a different persuasion from themselves, in matters of religion, either in public or in private concerns. The Faculty declares the doctrine of Catholics to be. That the divine and natural laAvs Avhich make it a duty to keep faith and promises is neither shaken nor diminished, if those with whom the engagement is made hold erroneous opinions in matters of religion.” The Faculty declares, that these are the principles of all Catholics, and this declaration Avas borne out by the concurrent testimony of the ■ other universities already mentioned, which returned similar ansAvers to the same three interrogatories in the following year, 1789. The University of Louvain had answered in 1788. 400 MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. IvEV. G. Ckolly. Mode of arnmuinjf the theological leetures for each academical year. Connexion between science and religion. Comidlation of treatises by the j)rofessors. compilation to such a Council, and how is the decision given? Are there any house treatises in moral as in dogmatic theology? and if not, why not? As far as I re.nember, there has heen just one meeting during the last ten ytiars to arrange the cottrse of theology. Why no other meeting has heen called I do not know ; hut I think it quite essential that this Statute should not be neglected. According to the present system, there is scarcely any control over a i)rofessor, either as to the subject or the manner of his teaching. Im])ortant matters may, therefore, he entirely omitted from the course, which certainly should not be permitted. That ])art of the Statute wliich directs that the liooks to he consulted shall he determined by the Council, clearly supposes that such hooks shall be procured by the College, and that they shall he accessible to the pro- fessors. Now, such is not the case in any degree whatever. To confine myself to my own department, it is not likely that any person will obtain a Theology Chair who has not made himself tolerably familiar with the writings of the old scholastics and commentators on the Bible. But certainly no ])erson is fit to be a Professor of Theology who is not acquainted with the prevalent religious and anti-religious o])inions — with the arguments by which religion is assailed, as well as with those by which it is defended. As there is scarcely a single discovery in science which, in its infancy, at least, is not attempted to be brought into hostile collision with revealed truth, it is the duty of a ja’ofessor to study these matters, so far, at least, as to he able to understand them clearly, and to reconcile them with his teaching. Astronomy, geology, the different races of men, their languages, com- ]>arative anatomy, &c., have all been called as witnesses against INIoses. I know some ]/cr- .sons still think they can cut the Gordian knot, by boldly asserting that the earth is the centre not only of the solar system, but of the entire universe, and that God created the world about six thousand years ago, fossils and all, exactly as it aj)pears at present. Few ])ersons, I think, would have the hardihood to advance the first of these assertions at the present time, but it is not at all unusual to meet with the second. And yet I am sure that any j)erson who has studied the sidqject, even a little, will be inclined to thiidv the assertion that God created the fossil remains of animals as they are found at ja’esent in the hoAvels of the earth about as rational as it would be to solve the dispute about the origin of the Irish round towers, by asserting that they wore built by the Almighty. God could do both these things; that he did do either is equally improbable. A j)erson who has not taken the trouble of stiulying such matters, may he quite sincere in calling them absurd, and iji saying that Closes has settled them long ago ; but those who have studied them will be apt to give him credit for little more than ignorant dogmatism, and he may even bring the sacred writer into contempt, by attributing to him opinions which he never dreamed of I thiidv it should ho the object of all sincere friends of revelation to protect it from such indiscreet advocates, who, with the best intentions, do it more injury than its worst enemies. I think there should he such a control exercised over every jirofessor, and indeed over every indi- vidual in the College, as to insui’e the proper discharge of his duties. He should certainly he obliged to studv such subjects as would enable him to do this efiiciently, but the College library should, at least in a great measure, sujijily him with books. Now, this is not the case at all. Neither on science, nor on languages, nor on theology and Scripture, are modern books procured or rendered accessible to professors. Even the leading reviews are not placed at our disposal, and every one knoAvs that some of these are conducted by the most eminent literary and scientific men, and that sometimes a single article contains an amount of knowledge Avhich, half a century ago, Avoidd have been published in an ex])ensive quarto. The fact is, that if a professor wishes to keep himself enurant Avith the ])rogress of knoAA'ledge, he must incur a very lieaA'y expense ; and, if he should be indolent, he Avil) find it his interest to indidge his easy disposition. It is obvious that a fixed sum should be allocated each year for the purchase new hooks, and that, in selecting these, some of the professors, Avith Avhom the entire body shf)uld be in communication, should be associated Avith the President and Librarian. By the present arrangement, no professor can get a book out of the libi’ary Avithout obtaining the hare of both the President and Librarian — a lea\-e Avhich might be refused, eA*en if he asked it. But the truth is, I have never knoAvn such leave to l)e asked, nor have I ever knoAvn a jwofessor to get a single book out of the library. Instead of this absurd arrangement, every jirofessor should have a right to take a book out of the library for a short time, by giving jirevious notice to the librarian, unless it should be necessarv, at the same time, to keep the book in the library for general use. No ])rofessor has submitted any treatise of his oaa u compilation to the Council since I became a member of it. I haA'e stated, on a former occasion, that the Professors of Theo- lojXA' are anxious to undertake a Avork of this kind, provided they he not required to lecture more than once in the day. I should say that the state of the library is also an obstacle to the compilation of tracts, AA-hich I think AA’ould be Aery useful, Avere it only to expunge from the treatises AAdiich are put into the hands of the students many interrogatories Avhich, hoAvever useful they ma\* haA’e been at other times, or in other countries, could be most advantageouslA' dispensed Avith at present in Ireland. There are house treatises in both moral and dogmatic theology. They consist of the treatises compiled by Dr. Delahogue, the rest of the course being made iq> out of ScaA'ini, Avith the exception of a small tract on Grace by Perroni and the treatise on matrimony, Avhich, I dare say, Avill, as I haA’e already stated, he taken from Scaviiii These tracts, Avith the exce])tion of Dr. Dclaliogue’s, have heen only adopted for the present academical year, the subject of alloAving the professors an opportunity of composing treatises being still under the consideration of the Board. 7. In Avhat manner are the provisions of the Statute, c. a*., s. 4, carried into effect:— ANSWKRSTO 1’Al‘Kll K. 401 “ All the Masters hoin^ coiiveneil hy the President, and the Council being nnaniinous, let tablets he drawn ii]), setting forth the snhject-niatter and order of instruction, the authors re(iuired and a la])ted to the several classes ; and let these tablets, nidess changed hy the d'rnstees, serve as received fonnnlaries?” Is it the practice for the authors required and adapted to the several classes to he submitted to the Council of the President and Masters, and their unanimous approval to he taken before the tablets are drawn np and adopted as formularies? No meeting of the masters, to arrange the matter, the order of instruction, a7id the authors ada])ted to the sevei'al classes, has been convened during the last ten years. Indeed I am not aware that any such meeting was ever held. I am sure, however, that the defects in the management of the jiinior de|)artments of the (k)llege could not be remedied by any modification suggested by the masters, d'he whole system is railically and essentially vicious. 1 have heard that the want of a Professor of Sacred Rhetoric has been looked upon as a gi'ave defect. Now a new a])pointment of this kind is, in my o])inion, the very opposite of what is really reqiured, and, instead of remedying, a Professor of Sacred Rhetoric would aggi'avate the defects of the ])resent system, d'he fact is, that the English department enjoys the singular advantage of having over it not only a ))i’ofe.ssor, but a gentleman who acts in a great measure as a tutor, and that the defects of this de])artment are not to be attributed to the want of instructors, but to the students not being allowed cither time or o])portunitv to inqu’ove th.emselves in these essential matters. None but the mere juniors, who are incajmble of ajipreciating the niceties of style or of language, are j)crnutted to attend the Belles Lettrcs (dass. Idie ]>rofessor of this de])artment is, I believe, anxious to extend his instructions to the senior students. It is not, therefore, a new j'.rofessor that is required, but an arrangement by which the students may he permitted to avail them- selves of the means of improvement in the English de])artment which ai’e already in existence. The arrangement for attendance o)i the second teacher in the English department is still more faulty, lie is a layman, i\Ir. iMoore Stack, and is as well qualified as any clergyman Avith Avhom I am acipiainted to impart to the students a correct literary taste, and fir more capable of teaching them the graces of elocution. I shall certainly not be a pai’tv to the transferi'ing of this department to a clergyman, Avhicdi Avould inevitably be the effect of establishing a chair of sacred rhetoric. When are the students alloAved to attend Mr Stack's lectures? Simply, during the Aacations ! During two of these A-acations, Avhich, taken together, amount to one Jortnif/h/, no student is permitted to leaA’e the College, excejit on account of delicacy of health, or for some other s])ecial cause. But, during the summer vacation, the great mass of the students do always leave the College ; and this relaxation is absolutely necessary for most of them, after the labours of the acade- mical year. When iMr. Stack first became connected Avith the College, his lectures occupied a portion of the ordinary time of business; anrl had this arrangement been continued, CA'ery student Avould haA'e enjoyed the adA-antage of attending them. It Avas alleged, hoAvcver, that they interfered Avith the theological studies of the students, and they Avei’e then trans- ferred to the summer vacation alone. This being the case Avhen I aa'us a student, I, in common Avith a great many others, ncA'cr had the adA-antage of iMr. Stack’s instructions. The tAvo isolated AA'eeks, during Avhich students necessarily attend his lectures at ju-esent, are of little or no use, not only because the time is too short, ami the attendance too numerous, but because this ])eriod Avas ahvays set a])avt for necessary relaxation after hard and continuous study. There is, moreoA’er, no rcAvard for proficiency, and no ]mnishment for neglect in this department; so that these lectures are looked upon by sipieriors and students as mere A’acation amusements. Noav, if there be time during the ordinary course to alloAv the stu- dents to ]>aA- pro])er attention to Mr. Stack’s lectures, this should be arrangeil in the first instance ; and if there be not, it Avould be a ridiculous attempt at a remedy to establish a neAv professorship of sacred eloijuence. I am so far from thinking that it Avould be an adA-antage to get rid of the only laA'inan connected Avith the jirofessorial dejiartment in the College, that I think a large number of such persons might be A-ery usefully employed in that ]iart of the College course Avhich is dcA-oted to secular education. I may entertain peculiar vicAA’S on this as Avell as on other matters of detail ; but I certainly have no other motive than the good of the College in putting them foi’AA-ard, nor do I expect them to receive any greater consideration than is due to their oavu inti’insic merits. I am convinced that the disposal of chairs by public concursus has been the great means of procuring for the College AvhateA-er good it possesses. It Avas not only the best, but the only e.dectual check Avhich could liaA-e been deviseil to exclude incompetent persons. If this ordeal AA-ere dispensed Avith, chairs AAOuld be filled, not by accomplished scholars, but by expert cam-assers. It Avould not be difllicult to coniirm this 1)A- referring to facts; but, considering that the appointments are made by a Board Avhich, generally speaking, has no knoAviedge of the candidates, it is cpiite sutficient to refer to human nature. I Avould not, therefore, infringe on the principle of disposing of chairs ouIa- after a piddic concursus, on any account Avhatever. That jirinciple consists essentially of these tAvo parts: 1. That no cliair shall be dis])osed of except by concursus; and 2 . That no junior professor shall adAance to a senior chair except in fhe same Avay. I do sincerely believe that am- change Avhich Avould prevent a hona jidr concursus from being required on both those occasions Avould be fital to the College as a literary establishment. I think the provision of the statutes, by aa Inch no person is alloAved to A-ote at the concursus for a chair for Avhich he might liimself become a candidate, is both Avise and salutary; because a con- trary arrangement Avould inevitably result in the practical abrogation of the concursus for J{i;v. (i. Citoi.i.Y. Detects in the ni:in;i;.;einent of the junior ilepiirtiiKiils. Sliiilents are not allowcil an o])i)oitu- niry of attenilinjr the lectures of the I’ro- fessorof Elocution. Aihnission of laymen as teachers in the classical and otlicr literary departments. The advanta{re of disposing of chairs by public concursus. 402 MAYXOOTII COMMISSIOX. Kev. G. Crollv. Election of pro- fessors. Too much theology in the junior de- partments. Employment of lay tutors. tlie liio'lier cliuirs. I do not know tvlKit niny ko tlie sentiments of the present members of the lioard on tliis subject; but 1 do know tliat it rejected, on a former occasion, an ajiplica- tion to allow the junior professors to ascend, without a concursiis, to the senior chairs. I’ersonally it is a matter of complete iiulilierence to me whether the election of jirofessors shall remain with the deans, as at ])resent, or shall be transferred to the junior jirofessors. 1 told the Commissioners, on a former occasion, that I thou'ilit the senior ])rofessors should have a jireponderating ^-oice at the concursiis. Others, no doubt, think dilferently; and if their views shouM be carried out, or the iiresent system should be continued, I shall be glad to feel mvself relieved from the irksome duty of giving a useless A'ote at a concursiis. Indeeii T think that to make the junior jirofessors judges at the conciu’sus for the higher chairs — though this would be an improvement on the present system — would render impos- sible a reformation which I consider essentially necessary in order to render the College as efficient as it ought to be. I do not consider myself justified in entering into the details of this reformation just uoav, because, whatever might be thought of its merits I fear it would not be considered practicable at the present time. 1 may say, hoAvei-er, that, I think, there is ipiite too much theology in the junior department of the College. I cannot see ivhy theology should form one of the subjects of the concurnti'^ for a chair of mathematics, of Greek and Latin, of English, of Irish, or of modern languages. In fact I consider this, for manv reasons, most pernicious. In the first place it excludes all laymen from the scientific and literary departments of the College, which I regard as a great evil. In the second jilace it diverts the attention of the candidates from the studies Avliich would fit them for the chair for Avhich they are contending to tliose of another department which have no connexion Avith it. In the third 'place it ingxiir s in their OAvn department, the legitimate influence of those Avhose business it is to teach theology by making cA’ery jirofessor in the College believe that he is as good a theologian as the Prote.ssor of Theology. In the fourth place it ]iroduces this great evil, that it makes the junior professors de.sjiise their own departments. They are theologians — have stood a concursus in theology — and are only Avaiting for a vacancy to be candidates for a diA'inity chair. This feeling is knoAvn to the students, and necessarily makes them regard their early and most necessary studies as matters of little or no importance. I Avould cut the head off tliis Goliah at once by confining the matter of the concursus to the subject to be taught by the successful candidate. If I Avanted a Professor of Classics 1 Avould not examine him on theology and philosojdiy, but on Latin and Greek. In tlie same Avay 1 Avould hold the concursus for English in English grammar, composition, and literature, for Irish in the Irish language, for modern languages, in French, Italian, and German, for logic in logics, metaphysics, and ethics, for mathematics in mathematics, natural and experimental ])hilosophy, for theology and Sacred Scripture in tlieology, Sacu’ed Scripture, IlebrcAv, Greek, mathematics, and logics. I Avouid thus oblige tlie Professors of Tlieology an;l Sacred Scrijiturc to be thoroughly acquainted Avith CAmry dejiartment taught in the College, not merely to qualify them to be the judges at the A-arious concursus’, (although for this purpose it Avould also be requisite), but chiefly because I belicA-e this Aiiried knoAA'ledge to be absolutely necessary to make them competent ju’ofessors in their oAvn department. From the other jirofessors I Avould onlv require a thorough knoAvledge of the subjects Avhich they Avould be required to teach, and tluis I Avould secure to each department the sendees of the candidate best qualified to discharge its duties. I Avould not, of course, interfere in the slightest degree Avith A'ested rights, but as the present professors fell off, I think, by adopting the system of concursus, Avhich I liavm recommended, that a staff might be introduced Avhich Avould be able to impart a solid English and classical education to s'uch students as should not have acquired, before enter- ing, more than the common rudiments. For this ])urpose it Avouhl be necessaiy to have three tutors, not professors, in Latin and Greek. Two in the English department, as at present, but Avithout putting on either of them the burden of teaching French, one in modern languages, French, Italian, and German, and one in mathematics as an assistant to the professor, Avhich Avould enable the latter to devote himself more exclusively to exjieri- mental })hiloso])hy, and Avould aft’ord an opjiortunity of instructing the students in chemistry, and the iiopular branch.es of physics. I should not be sorry if many of these tutors should be laymen, avIio Avould jirobably lie less reluctant than priests, to act as mere teachers, and Avho Avould have applied themselA'es to the matters they Avould have to teach instead of the study of theology. The arrangement Avhich I am merely glancing at could be introduced, gradiially, Avithout any additional expense to the College, and beside the subjects already mentioned it should embrace geograjihy, and ancient and modern history. If the reforma- tion Avhich I liaA'e suggested in the senior as aa'cII as the junior dejiartments aa'ci’c carried into effect, and the same encouragement for publishing uoav Avorks, AA’hich is not unfrequently e.xtended to strangers, and to Avorks utterly unconnected Avith the College course, Avere giA’en to the professors, I am convinced that before long, not only theological, but classical, scien- tific, and literai’y publications Avould issue from IMaynooth. 8. In Avhat manner do the professors mingle Avith the students out of lecture? Do they . exercise any formal authority OA'er them? In Avhat mode are they enabled to secure that their pupils shall be modest and docile? ILia’c they any, opportunities of directing their conduct by tlieir example in the refectory, the prayer-halls, the public AA'alks, and during the hours of recreation? and if not, might such opportunities be afforded AAnth adA-antage to the students, and Avithout inconA-enience to the professors? The professors iieA’er mingle Avith the students out of lecture, they exercise no authority OA’er them, nor are they invested Avith any poAver aa'IucIi they could use to render them ANSWERS TO PAPER K. 403 modest and docile oven diirino; the time of lecture. As far as my experience goes, the students are most industrious and attentive at the lecture, almost every individual amongst them being laboriously engaged in taking notes during the entire time. But this is in no degree due to any authority 1 have over them, for, in tact, I have no more authority over the students of my own class, even during the hours of lecture, than one student has over another. Indeed 1 have not one-hundredth part of the authority which a student, wlio is a monitor, exercises over Ids fellow-stutlents. If 1 wished to correct a student I should complain him to a dean exactly as the last stu lent in College might complain him. Tins evil can never be I'eniedied so long as the ]^ower of conferring or refusing orders shall be vested exclusively in the President, Vice-President, and deans. This is a most dangerous power for any one of those who are called masters — may ruin a student for life by exclud- ing him from ordei’s at the cJid of his course. 1 am sure none of them would do such a thing unless he believed it to be right; but his judgment might be wrong, and whilst the late Dr. hlontague v/as President, he asked me to intercede with a bisho]) to get a stndent ordained, because, as ho authorized me to state, he had been excluded from orders at the end of his collegiate course witliout any sufficient cause whatever. Every professor should be invested with the authority of a dean, and the Iht of students to be promoted to orders at the end of the academical year should be submitted to a council conii:)osed of superiors and [irofessors, at least one week before it would be rea;l in the common hall. I vrould give a preponderating, but not an exclusive voice to the masters in this council, as I would give the professors a })rcpondcrating, but not an exclusive voice at the cojicuvsus. If this arrangement were made I tliink the masters an. I ])rofessors should dine with the students, .should mingle with them in the hours of recreation, and that the ];rofessovs, as well as the deans, should Ausit the stud\'-halls and take part in conveying religious instruc- tions. In order to allow' the heads of the College to associate on friendly terms wdth the students it would be absolutely necessary uUcrhj to abolish the barbarous custom of saluting Avhich exists in our College. Every time a student meets any of the professoi’s or masters he is obliged to take off his cap, and they must raise their hats in return. This practice is so annoying to both professors and students that they cannot Avalk at the same time, in any place, where they must frequently meet. I have, in fact, often remained in my rooms rather than go through the ordeal of passing large bodies of students. The times at wdiich religious instructions should be given, and the persons by Avhom they Avould be given should be determined at the commencement of the academlcad year, and these instructions should be attended by all the masters and jwofessors. There are also, occasionally, public exhibitions in experimental philosophy, to Avhich strangers are invited from a distance, and from Avhich most of tlie students and professors of the College are excluded ! I knoAv the excuse is, that thei’e is not room for all. But there should be room, for there ai’e a whole series of halls appropi’iated to the natural philosophy department, and by simply removing a pm’tition there Avould be abundant room for every one. I know from my experience, both .as a student and as a px'ofessor, that an occasional relaxation of this kind is so far from imjiairing the general studies that it advances them v'ery materially, in addition to the discontent Avhich it allays, and the kindly feeling W'hich it spreads tlirough the entire community. It Avould, in my opinion, promote the friendly intercourse Ixetween students and professors, and Avould, at the same time, be Amry serviceable to both if aiTangements AA'ere made each year for the deliveiy of a short course of lectures — say fi\-e or six — by one of the professors upon subjects connected AA'ith the studies of the College, but Avhich do not form a distinct portion of the course. The subject of the lectures, the time of their delivery, and the px'ofessor by aa'Ixoxxx they Avoxxld bo deliA'ex’ed shoxild be arx’anged by the Council axxd approA'ed by the Board of Trxxstees at the eixd of each academical year. This Avoixld alloAv time to prepare theixx cax’efxxlly, and they shoxxld be j)ublished by the College press (for Ave should have a px’ess of oxxr oAvn). The sixbjects of these lectxxx’es shoxxld be ixeither contro- A’ex’sial ixor pxxrcly theological, bxxt such as Scriptxxral geology, xxatxxx’al theology, Biblical archmology, the xxatxxx'al histox'y of xxxan, the coxxipax’ative stxxdy of iaixgxxages, &c. I Avoxxld, ixxox’eoAmr, x’eqxxix'e the ixcav Professor of Sacx'ed Scripture to cax'ry oxxt the ]daix for teaching Biblical Gx'eek, sxxggested by the late hir. Gillie, aixd, thxxs, ixxstead of confining the adA'aixced stxxdexxts to the stxxdy of Scriptxu’e aixd theology, I Avoxxld xxot oxxly px’cscrve the kixoAAledge of their eax’ly stxxdies bxxt even xxxake theixx improA'C and exxlax'ge it until the vex'y last day of their coux'se. Geokge Croli.y. Answers of the Rev. Henry Neville to Questions proposed in Paper K. 1. What doctrine is taught by you on the sxxbject of an oath pledgetl to, or a contx-act made with a Ixex'etic by a Roxxxan Catholic ; Avhether it is of equal validity and equal obli- gation Avith an oath pledged to, or a contract made Avith a Roman Catholic in the same matter ? A coxxtract or oath entex’od into betAveeu a Roxnan Catholic and a heretic is fully as valid and binding as Avould be the sanxe oath or contract entered into betAveen tAvo Roman Catholic parties. The obligation of oath or contract is exactly the same in both cases. That is, the circumstance of heresy in the partv ixx Avhose favour the oath is xxxade, or in the 3/2 J!kv. G. t-'uoi,i.v. No frieiullj' inter- course between supe- riors and students. Arbitrary power of excluding from orders. Superiors and stu- dents should dine together and meet in friendly intercourse during the hours of recreation. Students excluded from public exhi- bitions. Course of public lectures. Eea-. it. Neville. 404 ^lAYNooTii co:\i:mission. Hk\ . II. Xkvilll'. Validity of oatli and oontract made to lieretic', and oljli};alion of tlieni, same as if made in f.ivoor of Catholic party. riiysical coercion of liorctics not incul- cated at Maynooth at present. “alter contrahons” (the second contracting party), will in no way vitiate an oath or contract in itself just and lawful. We lay down tliree conditions as required for the licitness of any oatli — truth, justness, .and judginent — the same tliat are set fortit in .Teremias 4, — “ Tliou shalt swear as the Lord livetli, in truth and in justice and in judgment.” We teaclt, moreover, that there are cer- t iin circumstances in which a ])romissory oatli is invalid, ipso Jacto ; and others in which, tliough originally valid, it loses its hinding power. These, however, are not arbitrarily assumed, hut arise from the nature of the promissory oath, and must be admitted bv every one clearly apprehending the same. They are brietiy as follow: of the first class — absence of free use of reason, error in the suhstance of the thing sworn to (as, for instance, to swear to make a jn esent of a vessel which you think brass, but which is really gold), and limitation of the intention to certain cases or conditions, out of which the oath has, of course, no binding power. These arc circumstances invalidating an oath on the ])art of the swearer. On the part of the thing sworn to, there arc — its illicitness, its impossibility, its being under every respect futile and ridiculous (for instance, an oath to bend a straw), and its being calculated to impede some greater good (as, for instance, an oath to observe the precepts of Christ, exclusive of his counsels). Of the second class — a substantial change in the matter of the oath, the non-fulfilment of his condition or his part by the jierson with whom or in whose favour the oath has been made, the irritation of the oath by some jierson with whose previous right it interferes, and dispensation of the superior — but this last does not hold in the case of an oath made in favour of a third yiarty and accepted by him. Now. neither those circumstances nor the conditions mentioned above involve anv imper- fectness in tbe oath made to a heretic ; neither do they supply any grounds for distinguishing between it and the oath made to the most orthodox Catholic, and yet, wo recognise no other principles, whereon the validity or licitness of oaths are to be decided. AVuth respect to contracts, we require that the contracting yiarties be “ tnm naturaliter, turn civiliter habiles ad contrabendum,” (qualified to contract by possessing the conditions naturally and civilly re(]uired) ; secondly, that the matter of contract be in itself “ contra- hibilis” (capable of being contracted for) ; and thirdly, that such right or rights as ought to be transferred by the special contract which they engage in. be really transferable by the parties. This is the summary of our doctrine on contracts, lly the presence of these three recpiisites, a contract is valid and binding according to us, and therefore heresy or orthodoxy in the contrah.ents has no more to do with tlie validity of their engagements than has the colour of their skin or the fashion of their beard. Thus Catholic Theology, recognises no difi'erence between the oath or contract made by a Catholic to a heretic and those concluded between Catholics themselves. 2. AVhether the doctrine is still taught in IMaynootli College which is found in a note appended to the evidence of llev. Dr. Slevin, in the A])pendix to the Eighth lleport of the Commissioners of Irish Education Plnquiry, ]). 222, to wit: — “The spiritual compulsion of which the I’ope sy)caks, and the physical coercion employed by the laws in some countries against heretics, both regard a state of things when one or more would attempt to intro- duce heresy, and form a sect in a purely Catholic country. This appears evidently from the Pope's words quoted above (in his Bull 'Ad tuas m/nius,’ dated August 8th, 1748, and addressed to the Primate, Archbishops, and Bishops of Poland), in which he distinctly states, that compidsion of anij sort cannot he eruj/loyed, when they are tolerated by the laws. It is not fair, therefore, to wre.st a law, or an observation, that regards only heretics who are disturbers of social order, a’ld endeavour to a[>ply it to Protestants incorporated into a nation, or forming a sect tolerated by the laws?” The doctrine advanced by Dr. Slevin, in the evidence given by him before the Commis- sioners of Irish Education Enquiry, and supported by the words cited from the bull “Ad manus tuas,” is still inculcated at Maynooth in both its ])oints. The first point forms a necessary ])ortion of the teaching of Ecclesiastical Con.sures. They are declared to he of their very e.ssence, medicinal punishments, to be inflicted only where tliey are expected to result usefully, and therefore never to be inflicted where the only consequence shoidd be certain contempt for both the penalty and him from whom it proceeded, as would he the case invariably, were the members of an established heretical community made their object. Indeed, there can be no variety of teaching on the matter, as the doctrine of Theologians regarding it is fi.xed, and the practice of the Church uniform. The second point we treat as a histor.cal fact merely, for, as I have stated in my oral evidence, the doctrine which it supposes is held by no theological })rofessor in Maynooth. As a matter of fact, however, it is shown that those civil ])unishments were inflicted only on the innovators and proj)agators of heresy, and never even on them unless Avhen their doctrine, either from itself or from their manner of propagating it, was attended Avith danger to the tranquillity of the state. AA'e point out that the o])inions of the theologians of the time did not Avarrant the enforcement of those penalties, except in the circumstances described. The subject is thus treated in Maynooth at present, but ])robably it Avould bo best treated by being ])assed over in silence by all ])arties. Silence Avitli regard to a charge to Avhich all are equally obnoxious, Avould be best becoming all. Nor is this the less true, because a few fanatics may be still found amongst Catholics, Avho Avould resuscitate the exploded opinion — as fiinatics, and of the very same spirit, may be found amongst Protestants themselves, and are found by those who look equally coolly and unbiassedly at the faults or deficiencies of all. 3. AA'hat is the doctrine taught in Maynooth upon the question, Avhether the Pope can ANSWERS TO PAPEli K. 40 ') docido as to tlie right or duty of revolt against the civil power, so as to bind the consciences of Roman Catholics ? Tlie Tope cannot decide as to the riij;ht or duty of revolt against the civil power, so as to hind the consciences of Roman Catholics. 'I’lie duties of allegiance I)Oth negative and ])ositive are from the natural law, and consetpicntly the Pope ()eing tlie teaclier of the Churcli. has a rie:lit to teach concerning them as ])oints of morality, but no riglit to sit as judge of the dispute between a j>rinc(; and Ins people, and decide practically tliat he should be no longer tolerated as their prince. It belongs to him to detine and inculcate the general duties of allegiance as contained in the natural or divine law, that is, to teach, the monarch and people being given, what they shoubl do for one another, just as it belongs to him to inculcate the mutual obligations of parent and child, lie can furthermore, in ■|)articular cases submitted to him, pronounce whether or not certain acts of a prince are sinful, even whether they are op])osed to the obligations of a ])rince towards his people, simply liecanso such are merely moral decisions derived from ])i’inci|)les of the natural law; and it is to be set down as a rule, that whenever the (|uestio!i is purely one of the divine or natural law, the Pope always has a right to docido. iSuch right, however, though it may be most advantageously exercised to the prince himself, if he bo a Catholic, by admonishing and reprehending hum, should never be exercised directly I'or tlie subject against their ]>rincc — to do so, would be to give a sanction to insubordination, and virtually, if not ex[)ressly, to relax the duty of allegiance. The authority of the Pope with regard to allegiance being exactly this, it is evident that he can ])ronounce on the duty and right of revolt only on two conditions: first, that there is found in the divine or natural law, a warranty for revolt; and secondly, that it can be in practice a (piestion purely moral — not partly moral, partly civil. The existence of the first condition is denied by our theologians generally, and their opinion has received the express approval of the Holy See itself.* The second is absolutely impo.ssible, for as the roh'.tion between ])rince and ])eop!e is not merely a moral but also a social relation, and as its conditions are not defined by the natural or divine law. but are rather of conven- tional aiT.mgcment, its dissolution c.annot bo a question exclusively moral, nor even mainly such. Ui.v. If. Nkvii.le. Tlio I'opt; cannot ikciile in [larticnlar t iic right anil ilnt y of revolt, though it helongs to his oflico to declare the diiiies of allegiance in general. 4 Do you teach, or how do you deal with those chapters in the course of moral theology, which treat of the duties of the married state’? What is the class-book or house treatise in use in iMaynooth College on those subjects? I never interrogate the students on, nor in any form introduce to tlieni those delicate questions that regard certain duties of the married state. It is, of course, necessary that they should he instructed on the obligation of conjugal fidelity, that they may be able after- wards to instruct and admonish their people, should they find them ignorant of their duty, or sinning against it, but this is done as briefly as possible, and the students are referred to private study for any further information that j) 0 culiar cases may require for their decision. The class-book in Maynooth on the subject of matrimony, is the short Treatise of Carriere.f Afode of treating subjects relating to married state. 5. In wl'.at manner do the professors tvho lecture in dogmatic theology, execute the provision of the Statutes, c. v., s. 3 : — “ Lot tire Professor of Dogmatic Theology strenuou.sly exert himself to impress on his class, that the allegiance which they owe to the Royal i^Iajesty cannot he relaxed or annulled by any power or authority whatsoever? ’ In -what way is this doctrine specifically inculcated ? The provision of this Statute is executed by the Professors of Theolog}' — in the explana- tion of our fourth commandment of the Decalogue, or in thetreatise “ do obligatione statuum,” where the relation of prince and subject is treated of, in the treatise on oaths, where, amongst the examples of oaths that cannot be dispensed, is enumerated the oath of allegiance — in the Church treatise, in the question of the Pope’s temporal power, and occasionally in the treatise on laws. 6. In -what manner are the pros'isions of the Statute, c. v., s. 2, carried into eflect : — Let the course of theology for the year he arranged at a previous deliberation by the President, Vice President, Theological Professors, Counsel being previously entered into, scil the heads of sieved science to be explained, the authors to be used, the books to he consulted ; but if the professor shall, by his own industry, have compiled any portion of this course of instruction, we order that such should be submitted to the same Council, and a decision be waited for?” Is it the practice I'or the professors to submit treatises of their Duty oflov.'xlty — liow iiiculcatul. rr.ivisioii.s of statutes witli regard to class- books and subjects of study— bow carried out. "■ In a Compendium of Theology published within the last few years, by ,T. P. Gary, S. .1., and Professor of Theology in the Umian College, the nuostion isauswerc 1 as follows : — “Is it ever lawful to refuse obedience to the temporid power, andeanit be ever lawful to revolt ? U — I'he doetrineof Scripture, Fathers. Councils, and Sovereign Pontiffs, also of the Catechism of tlieCouncil of Trent, and of St. Liguori, and of the Encyclical of Gregory XVI. of August l.uth, 13.12, which expresses the sense of all Catholic tr.ulitioti, can be tlius bri.ily ree.apitulatcd on this question. 'Uo the first point. As it is evident that we should tiever obey human autliority in things clearly opposed to the divine law, so is it necessary to obey Princes, even those who are ill-disposed and abuse tlieir power, in matters of themselves lawful. Erotn these most pure sources (that is. Scripture and Tradition, thus speaks Gregory XVI. in his Brief of June !ith, 1832,) we are clearly instructed that the obedience which men are hound to render to the powers constituted by God, is a precept absolute in its nature, which no one can justly oppose. To the second point. It is never lawful to rebel. St. Liguori says. “ That the principle of .lolm Gerson, to the effect that the monarch can he lawfully judged by the whole nation, if he rule unjustly, is exceedingly pernicious — not only false, but most pernicious. Yet, what remedy is to be adopted in case the rule of the prince be exceed- ingly oppressive ’ Our remedy, according to St. Thomas, is to have recourse to God that he may assist us.” See particularly the Encyclical letter of Gregory XVT., 1.1th August. 1832. t The treatise of Scavini has been temporarily substituted by a regulation made since the writing of the above answer. 406 MAYXOOTII COMMTSSTOX. I!f;v. II. Nevii.i.k. own compilation to such a Council, and how is t!ie decision given ? Are there any house treatises in moral as in dogmatic theology? and if not, why not? The Statute in question seems to regard the time when there was only one course of dogmatic theology, and one of moral, read annually. At ]iresent there are four of each distinctly defined as to matter, and rotating amongst the four Professors of Theology, the Professor of First Year's Theology teaching this year -what the Professor of Second Year’s Theolotrv tauirlit last vear, and so throughout. Hence tlie assembling of the Council for the purpo.se specified in the Statute has become unnecessary. The books for class aretixed by the lloard of Trustees, and the authors to consult are, of course, at the selection of each professor, for himself, and for liis present class. The ))rofessors have compiled no treatises of their own. The reason is, that their time is too much occupied in the present system of two theological classes each day, to allow tliem to engage in the very arduous and engrossing task of compiling theological treatises. If tliis difficulty were removed, the professors ivould gladly undertake to repair the cfeficiency. It should be remarked, that since the present arrangement has been introduced, now more than twenty years, no Professor of iMaynooth has compiled a single Treatise of Theology — it was not so under the former system of one class a day. 7. In what manner are the provisions of the Statute, c. o, s 4, carried into effect: — “ All the Masters being convened l>y the President, and the Council being unanimous, let tablets be drawn up, setting forth the subject matter and order of instruction, the authors required and adapted to the several classes ; and let these tal)lets, unless changed by tlie Trustees, serve as received formularies?” Is it the ]n’actice for the authors recjuircd and adapted to the several classes to be submitted to the Council of the President and blasters, and their unanimous approval to be taken before the tablets are clrawm up and adopted as formularies ? For the reasons given in tlie previous answer, it is found unnecessary to carry out the provisions of the Statute referred to. Intercourse of pro- 8. In what manner do the Professors mingle with the students out of lecture ? Ho they coTfl^fecl^to exercise any foi’inal authority over them? In what mode are they enabled to secure that lialls diidiy. ' " their pupils sliall be modest and docile ? Have they any opj)ortunities of directing their conduct by their example in the refectory, the prayer-halls, the public walks, and during the hours of recreation ? and if not, might such opportunities be afforded wuth advantage to the students, and without inconvenience to the lYofessors ? There is no intercourse between students and Professors outside the class-halls. Huring the hours of business, the Professors find no difficulty in securing modest demeanour and docility on the part of the students. They scarcely ever find it necessary to reprove a student publicly in class ; but should it ever become necessary, the verbal reproof of the ‘ Professor is regarded as a most severe punishment. An extension of the intercourse of the students and Professors should be attended with advantage to the students, and I do not think it could materially inconvenience the Pro- fessors; but as I had answered on a former occasion, I think that the advantage derived should be inconsiderable, taking into account the vast number of the students compared Avith that of the I’rofessors. IIexry Xeville. Answers to Questions AxswEiis of the Ilev. Hexiiy Xeville to the Questions on Matruioxy. 1. State the reasons, as you believe, Avhy the Treatise of Bailly on Moral Theology in use at Maynooth, in 1826, has been placed on the Index, and subsequently discontinued by the Trustees as a house treatise? Before proceeding to answer the direct inquiry of this question, it is necessary to remove a misapprehension of some consequence which is implied in its Avording. It sup- poses that the i\Ioral Theology of Bailly formally has been placed upon the Index : such IS not the fact. The work prohibited is thus described — “Bailly, Theologia Dogmatica et IMoralis. Paris. Donee corrigatur.” This does not at all imply that objectionable pro- positions are contained in the moral as AAmll as in the dogmatic treatises: it merely declares that errors are contained in tlie xvork, as above described, on account of Avhich its use is forbidden. In truth, I have heard no conjecture made as to the parts Avith Avhich the authorities at Home have been dissatisfied ihat did not point out dogmatic propositions cxclusiA’ely. Some have ascribed the prohibition of Bailly’s Avork to his strong assertion of Gallican principles in his Church treatise. This I deem improbable. Those principles have, indeed, been always discountenanced; in no instance, hoAvever, positively reprobated by the Holy See, although occasions have existed, far more likely than any arising out of present circumstances, to call forth such reprobation. Moreover, I Jiave heard it stated, on competent authority, that tlie Pope himself denies this to have been the cause of the condemnation. I Avould not, however, Avonder if the A’ehemence Avith which he asserts the certainty of his OAvn position, and the utter falsity of the opposite, as instanced in the following expression, “ Theologi Ultramontenses sicut in presenti materia veritatem abje- cirunt, sic et concordiacie,’”*^ had at least a secondary influence in provoking the censure. The more common opinion is, that the doctrine of Bailly Avhich is chiefly found fault with at Home is that Avhich claims for temporal princes the poAver to institute diriment impedi- * Tract, de Eccles. cap. xiv. art. v. ANSV/EPvS TO PAPER K. 407 nicnts of marriage. This 0 ])inion does not rest on mere conjecture ; for a modern French writer on matrimony, Carriere, having, in the first issue of Iiis work, asserted this pro])Osi- tion to bo the more probable, was rather liarshly criticised at Rome; and, it is generally thought, commanded to retract. At all events, this assertion does Jiot appear in a second publication, whore he merely says, it docs not belong to him to decide such a controversy. The recent agitation of this very question in the dominions of the King of Sardinia renders tlie supposition 1 have adopted still more probable, and, at the same time, c.xplains how the Holy See came now to condemn a writer so long tolerated. It was discontinued in !Maynooth in conformity w'itli a rule of the Board of Trustees made at their last January meeting. 2. If the treatise of Bailly have been so discontinued by reason of any doctrine upon the sid)ject of marriage, among other reasons, state if such doctrine was taught at May- nooth, and if the discontinuance of the treatises will affect the teaching at ilaynooth, on the subject of marriage ? The proposition which, in my answer to the former question I have supposed to be the cause of Bailly’s condemnation, was never, to my knowledge, taught at Maynootli. It has been always admitted that the civil j)owcr can annex just civil impediments, but not voiding the natural contract, or rendering the sacrament null. Hence, our teaching is nowise affected by the discontinuance of these treatises. 3. It has been stated to the Commissioners that Bailly’s doctrine on the separability of- the contract from the sacrament in marriage has been disa]>proved of by the authorities at Rome who take cognizance of such subjects ; and for that, among other reasons, has been placed in the Index. If such should be the case, does Bailly, in making such dis- tinction between the contract and the sacrament in marriage, allude to a civil contract, or to a spiritual contract, as distinguished from the grace of the sacrament ? The opinion of the separability of the contract and sacrament docs not seem to be at present in favour at Rome. Ilis Holiness, in a private letter to the King of Sardinia, of September 19, 1852, and in an allocution of the same date, declares the contract to be never valid amongst Christians without the presence of the sacrament. I think it, how- ever, highly improbable that Bailly has been placed on the Index for this O]jinion, which is not peculiar to him, but is defended by numberless theologians beside, and is an imme- diate consectary of the ojhnion at one time supported by very respectable authors, and still held by many, that the priest is the minister of the sacrament of matrimony. As to the second part of tlie question — the contract spoken of in this opinion is not the civil contract — all admit that there can be a contract civilly valid without the sacrament — but the natural or ecclesiastical contract. 4. Is it taught at IRaynooth, that a marriage celebrated according to the forms of the municipal law, between a Roman Catholic man and a Protestant woman, but not according to the forms of the Roman Catholic church, is valid, so as to preclude the Roman Catholic man from contracting, during the lifetime of the woman, a marriage according to the forms of the Roman Catholic church, witli a third party ? It is taught at IMaynooth that such marriage is valid, understanding by the “ forms of the Roman Catholic Church ” spoken of in the question, the presence of the parish priest and witnesses. The impediment of clandestinity does not reach the I’rotestant party, who, to use a theological phrase, “ communicates his freedom (from that law) to the other,” since marriage could not be valid for one of the contractents, and invalid for the other. 5. Is it taught at Maynootli that a marriage celebrated in Ireland between two Roman Catholics, by a Roman t 'atholic clergyman, but not in conformity with tlie decrees of the Council of Trent, in respect of clandestinity, is a marriage valid, so as to pi’eclude the par- ties, during the lifetime of each other, from contracting a marriage according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Cliurch with other parties ? The marriage here described is taught to be invalid, the decrees of the Council of Trent relating to clandestinity being now promulgated in every part of Ireland. 6. Is it taught at Maynootli that a man who enters into a marriage contract which is valid by the law of the land, but invalid by the law of the Roman Catholic Church, may, on that account, without sin, abandon the w’oman, and contract marriage witli another woman ? The man, in the case proposed, is free to abandon the woman and contract marriage with another, as far as any obligation from the ecclesiastical contract is regarded. The exist- ence of the civil contract will, however, ordinarily entail many inconveniences on both — Hz., exclusion from all civil privileges, and liability to prosecution in case of second mar- riage; so that he will be bound to contract again with the same party, in accordance ivitli the essential forms of the Roman Catholic Church. This is the teaching of Maynootli on this (Riestion. ]{kv. 11. Xkvilj-e. Answers to t^uestions on Matrimony. Henry Keville. 40S MAYNOOTII COMMISSION. Eev, p. Mviiray, Brief Statement of the Tiieologicae Course of ]\Iaynootii Coelege. Office of Muyr.ootli Commission, Rev. Sir, ffi’d A])i-il, 18;')4. M'ill you he cnoil enouo-li to furnish to ns, for the information of Her iMajesty’s Maynooth (’ommissioners, a brief statement of the entire course of Divinity (Moral and Do^inatic), taiiylit in the C'olletie, mentionino- the names and subjects of the seyeral treatises, and the divisions into the })ortioiis each of vvliicli constitutes one year's course. We haye the honour to remain, your obedient Seryants, Henry We.st, John O'Hagan, •Rey. R. Murray, Colletre, iMaynooth, Centlemen, April hth, 1iou in his own scholastic prose, than our Protestant Poet Laureate has expressed it in his English lambics. I Secretaries. STATEMENT OF THEOLOGICAL COURSE. 409 et viatonun.”* What c-onstituti'S the lia])i)iness of the next life ou^lit surely to h^v. be the hii>'hest object of our lueutal juirsuit iu this. “The ]»ro])er study of luaukiiid is” 7 wt “mail,” or man’s works, but (Jod, and what a]i])ertains to him. There is, it is true, a knowleili«;e expre.sslv hidden, a curiosity exjiressly ])rohihited. A soheraiid devamt mind will not seek after the one, or indul<>;e iu the other. Hut what we may know is worth kiiowincl(iIiof/uc. This Treatise (which is in the form ofau appendix to the ]avceding,) discusses the questions on which we arc at issue with Protestants, regarding the veneration and invocation of Saints, the resjiect jiaid to their relics and images, Ac. The ordinarv ohjectious, that our doctrine is opposed to the one Mediatonship of Christ, Ac., that our jiractices are idolatrous or lead to itlolatry, Ac., are refuted in this Treatise. 0. De Gratia. Perrone. Owing to the ]ireviously limited jieriod of our ordinary theo- logical course, this abstruse but important and iiiterestiiig Treatise did not form a part thexeof, until after the estalilishment of the additional chair of theology iu 1S45. The Treatise is divided into three parts. In the first part (on Actual Grace), after the preliminary explana- tion of terms, various questions are discussed on the necessity of grace in reference to the errors of the Pelagians and Semipelagians, on one hand, and of the Jansenists and certain classes of Protestants on the other. Secondly, the gratuitousness of grace, or, in other words, our utter inability to merit grace by any mere natural efforts of our own. Thirdly, the relations between grace and free-will. Lastly, the tlistribution of grace, i.e. the affording of sufficient grace not only to the just and to believers, but to sinners and unbelievers, and to all of them. The second part (on Habitual or Sanctifying Grace,) treats of the nature and effects of justification, the dispositions necessary to attain it, the kind and degree of certainty each individual may or may not have of his own ]iersonal justification, the amissability of this grace, Ac. The third part treats of the merit of good Avorks, and the conditions necessary thereto, Avliich according to our defined doctrine, is entirely derived from the merits of Christ. This treatise of Perrone is one of his very best: but is perhaps too long and learned for a mere text-book. 7. De Sacramextis ix Gexere. Delahoytie. In this Treatise, as the title im])lies, are liandled a number of yencral questions regarding the Sacraments. The definition of a sacrament. The number and divine institution of the Christian sacraments. The sacramental effects. The Minister of the sacraments, and the conditions required on his part for the lawful and valid administration of them. The reci])ient and the dispositions reipiired on his ]iart for the lawful and valid reception of them. In this treatise are incorporated the questions debated between us and Protestants on the utility of the Church ceremonies, and their liarmony with the spirit of the Christian I’eligion, and on the use of the Latin language in the liturgy. 8. De Haptismo. 9. De Coxfirmatioxe. 10. De Extrema Uxctioxe. Most of the leading questions discussed iu these three treatises resemble each other iu their general expression. The nature and definition of each sacrament — its institution — its matter and form + — its necessity — its effects — its proper minister and fit recijxient or subject. In the treatise of Baptism the question of infant bajitism is, of course, discussed. 11. De Eucharistia. Delahoyne. The titles of the great dogmatical que.stions contained in this treatise are Avell known to all intelligent Protestants as well as Catholics — the Real Presence — Transuhstantiation — Communion under one or under two species — the Sacrifice of the jMass, Ac. It eml.aaces also several moral and ritual f[uestions. l:f. De PmxiTEXTiA. Delahoyne. The ]nincipal dogmatic questions in this Treatise are those on the power given by our Lord to the Church, of forgiving sins, and of forgiving all sins whatsoever, the jiroper dispositions Ixeing of course supposed — on the divine institution and obligation of Confession — on thetenqxoral jmnishment which generally remains due after the sacramental remission of mortal sin. But the treatise is maiuly occujxied in moral ([uestions. Such are the nature and conditions of the contrition and confession required on the pai’t of every penitent in order to receive valid absolution — the jurisdiction required in confessors — the various duties of confessors — the seal of confession, Ac. 13. De Purgatorio. Delahoyne. In this Treatise (which with the folloAving constitute Appendices to the preceding,) Ave confine ourseh'es almost exclusively to the simple proof * Eivluart. Dissertat. Procem. vol. 1. p. 8. + These terms, Matter and Form, w)iich occur in the treatises on the sacraments, are hoiTOwed by analogy^ from very' familiar objects, or at least may be made plain by illustrations drawn from those objects. Tims the table on which I am writing consists of matter and form — the matter being the wood, the form being the particular shape, viz : of table, into w'hich the wood lias been wrought. If the wood had been made into a chair, a pulpit, A;c., it would, with those different forms, have constituted material objects of a different sort in reference to human use. It is determined or shaped by the form to one object or the other. So ablution by water is what we call the pro-vimate or immediate matter of the sacrament of Baptism. It may be used for the purpose of cleanliness, health, etc., (as the wood may be made into a table, a pulpit, etc.) ; but it is determined, as we say, ad esse, sacramentnle by tbe union of the form — “ I baptize thee in the name of the Father, Ac,” just as the wood is determined ad esse tabula by receiving the form of a table. It is hardly necessary to add that such analogies or the language founded on them are not to be urged too rigorously in eveiy case, or indeed iu any case beyond what doctrinal accuracy may admit, or clearness and conveuienc’o of expression may require. ^9 L*. Murray, D.n. 410 :\IAYXOOTII COMMISSION. ]{Ev. P. Murray, and vindication of the doctrine laid down in the Creed of Pius IV. : — “ Constaiiter teneo " Purgatorium esse, aniina.s([ue il>i detentas fideliiim sulfragiis juvari.” 14. De Ixdulgextiis. Dclahogue. The chief dogmatical ])ro})osition in this Treatise is that a j)ower of granting indulgences lias been given by Christ to the Church. By an indul- gence wo understand a remission, before God, in whole or in jiart, of the temjioral punish- ment due to sin after the remission of the sin itself. Indulgences therefore, 1°, are not a remission of sin committed: they su])]iose the sin already forgiven. 2“, Still less are they a licence to commit sin. Neither the Church nor any body or individual in it has jiower of granting any such licence, in any circumstances, under any pretext, for any end whatsoever. If 1 claimed such ])ower for the Church, I would be guilty not only of a horrible slander against her, but of a gricYous ojiposition to her fixed doctrine and uniform teaching. It is melancholy and to our common reason humiliating to see (as I have seen in recent publica- tions,) the revival of an imi)Utation so absurd, so self-contradictory, so often denied and refuted. Nay, the remission of tem[)oral punishment by Indulgences, not only does not relieve the penitent from the performance of pious works, but, in every case, and as a condition absolutely necessary, ]>resupj)oses them. 15. De Okdine. In this Treatise various (questions regarding the different orders of the Hierarchy are discussed — the divine institution of the Priesthood — the superiority jure diviuo of Bishops over Priests, &c. The lawfulness and expediency of the obligation of clerical celibacy are also treated here. IG De Matrijioxio. In this Treatise are explained the necessity and conditions of the consent of the contracting ])arties — the nature of marriages contracted .sv/5 cunditione and per procuratorem, or by proxy, &c. The sacrament of marriage is also established, its sanctity, its indissolubility, the superior excellence of celibacy, the unlawfulness of polygamy, &c. TTie various impediments and the principles and forms by which the granting of dis])cnsations is reguLtted, make iip the longest and most intricate section of the moral division of the TTeatise ; and, being almost entirely based on positive law, have supplied an ample and far from neglected field for ingenuity of reasoning and diversity of opinion among theologians and canonists. 17. De iVcTiBus Humaxis. 18. De Conscientia. 19. De Legibus. 20. De Juee et Jdstitia. 21. De Coxtractibus. Of the general subjects of these very important treatises 1 have, if I remember well, said (juite enough in my oral evidence. 22. De Peccatis. Of this Treatise (parts of which are antici})ated in the treatises de Actihus Humanh, &c.), the sections chiefly read are those on the numerical and specific dis- tinctions of sin * — the distinction between mortal and venial sin — original sin and its O })unishment, &c. 2d. De Decalogo. Under the first commandment we treat of the theological virtues of Faith, IIo})e, and Charity, and Avhat we call the Virtus liel/f/iouis VthiAi regards the Aairious modes of worshi])ping God, as by prayer, Ac., and the sins opposed thereto, as su])erstition, sacrilege, Ac. Only the moral questions regarding faith are generally introduced here; the dogmatic and scholastic being reserved as preliminaries to the treatise dc Kcclesia. Under the head of charity are introduced the external works thereof, as alms-deeds, fraternal cor- I’ection, Ac., and the sins oj)posed thereto, as scandal, Ac. Under the remaining command- ments we treat of oaths ami vows; the obligation and mode of hearing IVIass on Sundays and holydays (ff‘ obligation, the servile Avorks to be abstained from on those days; the mutual duties of parents and children, masters and sen-ants, Ac.; the A'arious injuries that may be inflicted on person or ])roperty; lying, equi\'ocation, detraction, rash judgment, Ac., Ac. 24. De Pr(ECEptis Ecclesi.e. In this Treatise are explained the laAvs of fasting and abstinence ; a \-ery interesting subject — to discourse of. The other precej)ts of the Chimch are anticipated in other jiarts of the course. 25. De Obligatioxibus Statuum. Treats of the sjiecific moral obligations of the Clergy, of Religious, of J udges, of LaA\-yers, of Witnesses, Ac. 2G. De Bexeficiis. Very slightly touched on. 27. De Sijioxia. This Treatise, like the tAvo folloAA-ing, is almost entirely made up of positiA-e kiAv. It is full of legal distinctions and cramp definitions not easy to fix in the mind, and equally difficult to keep there. 28. De Cexsuris. Treats first of Censures in general — the nature of — the sort of sins for Avhich they may be inflicted— the formalities to be obser\-ed in the infliction of, Ac. Then folloAA-s the ex])lanation of the three censures of Excommunication, Suspension, and Interdict — their respecti\-e effects, Ac. 29. De Irregularitatibus. Treats of the canonical impediments to ordination or to the exercise of orders already received, Avhether ju’oceeding from criminal conduct {ex delicto j) or from incul|)able defect of body or mind {ex defectu)^ as confirmed ejulepsy, illegitimacy, Ac. On this list, Avhicli comprises our entire theological course, I have to observe, 1°, that there- are seA-eral treatises not included in it, e. y. De Deo et Dirinis Attrihutis, De A/u/elis, De Creatione Muudi, d'c. But the more important parts of some of these treatises come into other parts of the course. Thus the greater ])ortion of the treatise De Deo, Ac., is anticipated in S])ecial Metaphysics, that division of it Avhich is popularly called Natural Theology ; another section of it is introduced partly into the treatise de Gratia, partly into the treatise de Dicaruatione. There are other treatises, the more essential parts of Avhich are introduced into the Scripture course: and others, like that de Ane/elis, filled indeed Avith speculations • If a man commits two murders )ie is guilty of two sins numerically but not specifically distinct. If he commits one murder and one robbery he is guilty of two sins specifically as weU as numerically distinct. To ascertain the numerical and specific distinction of sins in all cases is by no means an easy matter. STATEMENT OF THEOLOGICAL COURSE. 411 (to a tlioolop;ian at least) of a most interestinri description, l)iit on topics about wlneli tlic Kev. Chnreli lias defined but little. The small amount of do^ma contained in those treatises is easily communicated by the Professor as occasion offers — and such occasions freijueutly ofler — in f^ointj tbrou^li the ordinary course. Then the better class of students — by whom alone most of the questions excluded from the ordinary course and not a few included in it, can be I'ead with jirofit — have abundant opjiortunitics of reading more extensively when they come to the Dunboyne class. I have to observe, 2°, that it sometimes bajipens that, owing to jiressui’e of time or of more important matter, some of the minor treatises, or those that may be easily read by ordinary students as a private study, are omitted or taught in a more abridged form. The following are the four divisions of the entire course, each of which forms the matter of one year's study. Though I mark them 1, 2, &c., the Commissioners are already aware that no one Professor is confined to any one division, but that each goes through the whole four, one division after the other. I. — ^1. De Religione. 2. De Trinitate. 3. De Actilms, Ilumanis. 4. De Conscientia. 5. De Legibus. (i. De Jure et Justitia. 7. De Contractibus. II. — 1. De Ecclesia. 2. De Matrimonio. 3. De primo, secundo et tertio Proecejito Decalogi. 4. De Peccatis. III. — 1. De Sacramentis in Genere. 2. De Eucharistia. 3. De Poenitentia. 4. De Purga- torio. 5. De Indulgentiis. 6. De Incarnatione. 7. De Cultu Sanctorum. 8. De Simonia. 9. De Censuris. 10. De Irregularitatibus. IV. — 1. De Gratia. 2. De Raptismo. 3. De Confirmatione. 4. De Online. 5. De Extrema Unctione. 3. De ((uarto, quinto, septimo et octavo Proocepto Decalogi. 7. De Obligationibus Statuum. 8. De Reneficiis.-" The treatises newly introduced into the course on the establishment of the new theological chair in 1845, or, though nominally in the course before, yet from pressui’e of time not generally read, and at that period made a hona fide portion of the course, were, 1. De Gratia. 2. De Confirmatione. 3. De Ordine. 4. De 4", 5”, 7", 8”, Proecept. Decal. 5. De Obligationibus Statuum. fi. De Reneficiis. 7. De Purgatorio. 8. De Peccatis. 9. De Indulgentiis. 10. De Irregularitatibus. 11. De Exti’eraa Unctione. The four last were always a part of the course, but not always read. On each of the preceding treatises to which no author’s name is subjoined, our present text-book is Scavini. Having as yet taught but a portion of one half-year’s course out of this work, I have given the above summary acording to the old text-books. The treatises I have taught oixt of Scavini are those de Actilus IIuma)iis, de Cotisciefifia, and a part of de Ijegihun. The work is, I hear, unobjectionable on the score of doctrine : but the treatises just named are but poorly executed ; they are greatly deficient in clearness, arrangement, and, above all, in solidity. I have looked into some of the mixed treatises, t. ^., those that are partly dogmatic and partly moral, and I find that important dogmatic questions are either omitted altogether, or treated in a merely catechetical form. In truth, the work professes to be but a moral course.f Thus, then, on all the dogmatic questions that come into the last fifteen treatises in the preceding list we have in reality no text-books, save in name ! The students are uoav compelled to jmrehase, beside the old house tracts still retained, the full course of Perrone’s dogmatic, and the full course of Scavini’s moral theology (neither being sold in odd volumes) and yet they have not a comjdete set of dog- matic and moral text-books ! !| Then Scavini, like Railly, bristles all over with foreign civil law — one main difference being, that we now have the modern code of Sardinia instead of the old laws of France ; Charles Albert instead of the Grand Monarqne. I sometimes dream that this new state of things is not the most perfect imaginable. How we shall be able to work ■wdth it I am utterly at a loss to know. I have the honour to be, Gentlemen, your obedient Servant, P. Murray. * These divisions are arbitrary and by no means well an'anged. How this has happened it would be idle to inform the Commissioners. There is no practical inconvenience in the present arrangement, and indeed could not be in almost any arrangment. + The title of the work is : — “ Theologia MoraUs Universa, in usum Clericorura dioeeesis Novariensis. Prolatis proprio loco tarn Concordatorum et Synodi Diacesani quam codiois Albertini cum coilice Austriaco general! collati Constitutionibus. Auctore Petro Scavini, &c.” t I announced, at tbe commencement of the present academical year, that Scavini had been substituted for Bailly ; and I requested the students to provide themselves each with a copy of the work. It was replied to me that the College had compelled them to purchase the old course — part of the entrance fees are for this purpose — and that having been partially set aside, they should not be compelled to purchase a new and complete course of Moral Theology. Nevertheless I repeatedly ttrged them to do so ; but without success. I am informed that there are but five or six copies of Scavini among the students of my class ! Mukbav, n.i). 3^2 412 MAYNOOTII C0M:\1LSSI0N. Eev. 1\ Muiirav, Outlines (referred to in tlie Evidence of Dr. ^Murray, Q. 55) of a Plan for the Employ- ment of tlie Dunboyne Scholars as Lecturers in the Divinity Classes.* As only a small portion of the Diinljoyne scholars would he quali/ied to lecture in theoloiry, it ha])pens fortunately that only a small j)ortion of them would he required for that purpose. The majority of them do not, either in capacity or acquirements, come up to the standard necessary for the respectahility and effectiveness of such a function. An unfit person set to ])reside over the theological exercises woidd excite onlv the contempt and laughter of the students. The abolition of provincial distinctions, as suggested above, would tend to bring about Home im])rovoment on the present state of things. The ridiculous spectacle of a person promoted to the Dunboyne, on the very lowest distinction, while another, who obtained premiums during the whole or the greater part of his theological course, is excluded, would he witnessed no longer. The following is a brief exposition of the plan I woidd beg to propose. Tt resembles, in all essential points, the system, as it has been described to me, of “ circles” which prevail in Rome and elsewhere: I. I would have the hour from seven till eight of each INIonday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday evening devoted to the exercise of what I shall henceforth call circles. Idiis is the hour during which the class of English Rhetoric in the junior, and that of Irish in the senior division of the College is held. The hour from five to six might answer, but the former ajipears to me more convenient. II. According to our proposed plan of amalgamating the four classes into two, there should be four lecturers, />., one in dogmatic and one in moral for each of the two classes. Or if it should a]>pear to those who will have the final establishment of this plan in their hands (if it ever be established), that it will be quite enough to have circles in but one dejiartment, c.//., in INIoral Theology only, then two lecturers will suffice. III. The matter of exercise in the circles should be the same as that of the professors’ classes for the time being. Thus, c.//., suppose a class now reading the treatise dc llelit/ione under the Professor of Dogma, and that de Jjer/ihus under the Professor of INIoral, the ])ortions of those treatises just now being read, or rather just noiv concluded, should form the matter of the exercises of the circle — the treatise de Relirjiune for one evening, that de Le;/ihus for another. IV. The exercises should be carried on entirely liy the students with each other, very much as it is (or at least used to be) on certain fixed days in the Logic Class, and has always been (for theology) on every day in the Dunboyne Class. Four students ai’e this evening named by the lecturer to interrogate on the next evening. The interrogators thus get preidous notice and time to prepare their questions or objections. When the next evening arrives, the questioner first in order takes his place, and the lecturer calls on some student {^pro lihitu and without previous notice), to answer the questions or olijec- tions to be jiroposed. This continues for one quarter. Then the next questioner takes his place, and another student is called to answer — and so on. Thus, during each hour, eiijht students would be exercised — four in interrogating or objecting, four in answering. V. The lecturer should sini])ly preside to keep onler ; to see that the disjnitation is carried on according to the laws of such exercises ; to throw in such brief corrections or other observations as he may deem fit, &c., &e. VI. The professors should have the absolute appointment of the lecturers, as, according to Statute, the Deans have of the monitors ; and as, indeed, we had until latelv, with regard to lecturers in case of sickness or absence. Students are appointed to the Dunljoyne Establishment at the close of their course. Not only their literary standing, but their whole conduct is taken into account. Resides, the President has the sole right of j)roposing, and has therefore an ahsolutc veto on even/ appointment. There can be, therefore, no fair ground for rejection on the score of conduct. Idle only thing then to be considered are their literary qualifications, of which the professors are the only competent judges. Then, the lecturers should necessarily have frequent Intercourse with the professors under whom they are respectively lecturing ; consequently they should be persons who have the confidence of the professors, and are likely to ]nill with them. Of course, in a case of serious neglect of duty, or violation of such rules as the lecturers would be subjected to, a power of removing from office, or otherwise punishing, should be vested in a fixed tribunal, constituted for the puiqiose — not, however, in any individual. VII. In case of a concursus for a vacant chair, I am decidedly of opinion that lecturers should have no claim to preference on the score of their lectureship. On such occasions nothing but superior fitness and merit (all things considered) should be allowed to enter, in the least degree, among the grounds of adjudication ; otherwise an opening would be made to endless manoeim’ing and intrigue. A'lii. I think the jwesent tenure of ])Iaces and scale of salaries in the Dunboyne Class objectionable. A student who has obtained the first premium, jierhaps the first ])lace in the first premium, through his whole theological course, in all the de})artments of Theology, Scriptiu’e, and Ecclesiastical History, is a])pointed. Another who has obtained the ven/ lowest j)lace, and that perhaps only once or twice (and such cases have liappened often This Paper arrived too late to be inserted as a Note to Dr. Murray’s evidence. DIVINITY LECTURERS. 41 P, onouo:]i), is appointed on the same day. Roth receive exactly the same salary, and have ItEv. a right to occupy their })laces for exactly the same period. IX. I wonld have no one appointed lecturer who had not studied at least one year in the Dunboyne Class. I would require two years, unless in the case where there was no fit ]>erson among those who had already passed two years on the establishment. I would have some fixed standard for such fitness, c.//., that no one should be qualified to be a])pointed lecturer who had not obtained such or such distinctions or premiums during his theological course, or during a determined part of it. The lectiu’ers should be allowed to remain a vear or two, or perhaps longer, beyond the present term of three years. This Avoidd be an additional help to keejhng the Dunbovne stocked, as far as possil)le, only Avith the cleA’crer men. There should be some A-arying scale in the Dunboyne salaries — regulated partialh', at least, by the standard of ]iast and present literary merit ; ])artially also, j)orhaps, by standing. Of course the lecturers should receiA'e more than others — at least cacteris jiuribnx. X. The professor should have a riyht to Ausit the lecture halls at any time during the hour of circles. He might lie recommended to A'isit them mice a Aveek, and hound to A’isit them once a fortnight. As there Avould be tAvo professors over each class, each class Avould be sui’e of a A'isit from either jirofessor once in the Aveek ; and, as the time of the A’isit Avould be, of course, left to the discretion of the professor, they Avould not knoAv AA'hat eA'enino; he might select in any Aveek, and Avould thus be ahvays prejiared for his coming. To bind the professors to more than this Avould be to defeat, in a great degree, one main object of the proposed change. XI. The exercises might be carried on from time to time in English, especially in those departments of theology that Avould be more likely to form the subjects of pastoral instruc- tion to the people. XII. The lecturer should correspond Avith the professor at stated times, to report on the state of the circles, &c. He should also report, at the close of the year, on the relatlA'e merits of the students ; such reports to be taken into account by the professor in forming his list of premiums and distinctions. XIII. The preceding outline no doubt may admit additional details, and imja'OA'ements in the details given ; but the plan taken substantially is recommended by the folloAving consi- derations, Avhich, A’iewed collectively, appear to me to possess irresistible Aveight. 1". It Avould give abundant exercise to the students, far more than they have or could have under the present system. 2“. The exercises Avould be peculiarly improA'ing, as being in the same matter just gone OA'er by the professor. They Avould be a rehearsal, a clinching and driving home of AA'hat had been already learned. 3“. They Avould be A'ery much easier on the students than the present calls under the professor. 4°. The students Avould be accustomed to the expression and exposition of theological ideas more nearly in the form in Avhich they Avould afteiUA-ards have to communicate them to the people — a great adA’an- tage. 5“. The plan carries out (Avhat has neA-er yet been done) the spirit and letter of the Statute, chap. 7, n. 9. 6°. Independently of the existence of such a Statute, the improve- ment to the clever men on the Dunboyne Avould be A^ery considerable. After their four years’ ordinary course, they study tAvo more as Dunboyne students, and then teach for a couple more. If any thing could tend to make them perfect scholars in eA'ery AA'ay, this should. 7“. The plan fully meets, and more than meets, the only reasonable objection to the proposed amalgamation of the four divinity classes into two. 8°. With all these advantages it can be attended Avith no inconvenience whatever. P. Morbat, n.D. DUBLIN: PRINTED BY ALEX. TIIOM AND SONS, 87, ABBEY-STREET, FOR HER majesty’s STATIONERY OFFICE. ih ..