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 MDCCCXLIX. 
 

 .11.^82 
 
 BOSTON COLLEGE LIBRARY 
 CHESTNUT HILL, MASS. 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 INTRODUCTION page 1 
 
 CHAPTER I. 
 
 AN ORDINATION A VISIT OF THE JESUITS EXPLANATION OF MY 
 
 VIEWS THE LAYING ON OF HANDS THE PRIESTLY POWER OF 
 
 ABSOLUTION AND OF SACRIFICE THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT AT 
 
 OXFORD THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT IN GERMANY THE NATURE 
 
 OF THE ABSOLVING POWER WHETHER JUDICIAL OR DECLARATORY 
 
 THE OPINIONS OF THE TWO CHURCHES COMPARED. P^gC 9 
 
iv CONTENTS. 
 
 CHAPTER II. 
 
 THE GROSSNESS OF SOME SUPERSTITIONS WHETHER SANCTIONED 
 
 BY THE CHURCH OF ROME CONTRAST BETWEEN THE RELIGION 
 
 OF THE ENGLISH AND THE ITALIANS THE VIRTUE OF MIRACU- 
 LOUS PICTURES THE REALITY OF THEIR MIRACLES ASSERTED AND 
 
 EXPLAINED A CONVERT IN A NUNNERY PARALLEL BETWEEN EVE 
 
 AND MARY THE RELIGION OF CHRIST BECOMING THE RELIGION 
 
 OF MARY THE NATURE OF THIS PROCESS EXPLAINED MARY 
 
 MORE MERCIFUL THAN CHRIST. . . . page 34 
 
 CHAPTER III. 
 
 • 
 
 VISIT FROM A CONVERT TO ROMANISM ARGUMENT DRAWN FROM 
 
 HIS EXPERIENCE OF HAPPINESS MOTIVE TO REST ENTIRELY ON 
 
 THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE CHURCH THE INFALLIBLE TRIBUNAL 
 
 AMONG PROTESTANTS CONTRASTED WITH THAT AMONG ROMANISTS 
 
 ARGUMENTS FOR INFALLIBILITY THE SCRIPTURES TRADITION 
 
 the fathers. ...... page 62 
 
 CHAPTER IV. 
 
 THE DEATH OF A CONVERT ADMINISTRATION OF FIVE SACRAMENTS 
 
 PRAYER THROUGH MARY HEARD SOONER THAN THROUGH CHRIST 
 
 ARGUMENT FROM EXPERIENCE THE MADONNA OF THE AUGUS- 
 
 TINIANS THE MEANS BY WHICH SAINTS HEAR PRAYERS GOD A 
 
 MEDIATOR TO THE SAINTS OPINIONS OF ST. CHRYSOSTOM THE 
 
 INFLUENCE OF THE WORSHIP OF MARY MARY MORE COMPAS- 
 SIONATE than christ. .... page 100 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 CHAPTER V. 
 
 INVITATION TO A' POLEMICAL DISCUSSION THE PROHIBITION OF THE 
 
 SCRIPTURES FOR SALE AT ROME UNIVERSAL IGNORANCE OF THE 
 
 SACRED VOLUME SALVATION ONLY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME 
 
 INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPES NECESSARY TO BE BELIEVED 
 
 WHETHER THERE BE SALVATION IN THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND 
 
 THE CHURCH OF ROME HAS NEVER CLAIMED INFALLIBILITY. 
 
 page 130 
 
 CHAPTER VI. 
 
 conversation with the professor of canon law the fete at 
 
 the jesuits' church, closing the year — the question of 
 
 infallibility residing in a council or in a pope seven 
 
 signs or tests by which to discern when the pope is in- 
 fallible and when fallible the alleged unsuitableness 
 
 of the scriptures as a rule of faith the same argument 
 
 APPLIED TO THE PAPAL DECISIONS. . . page 153 
 
 CHAPTER VII. 
 
 OPINIONS ENTERTAINED AT ROME RESPECTING THE MOVEMENT IN 
 
 THE ANGLICAN CHURCH THE BISHOP OF EXETER AND OTHERS AT 
 
 - OXFORD CAUTION AGAINST ROMANS INTERMEDDLING WITH THE 
 
 CHURCH OF ENGLAND SEPARATION OF THE TEMPORAL FROM THE 
 
 SPIRITUAL POWER OF THE POPES ARGUMENT DERIVED FROM THE 
 
 SUCCESS OF THE MISSIONS OF THE CHURCH OF ROME AN INDIAN 
 
 TRIBE CONVERTED THEIR HOLY LIVES WONDERFUL MIRACLE 
 
 CREDULITY PREVALENT AT ROME INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN TWO 
 
 DOCTRINES OF THAT CHURCH TRANSUBSTANTIATION AND THE 
 
 MASS THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION HUMAN MERIT INDUL- 
 GENCES. ......... page 181 
 
VI CONTENTS. 
 
 CHAPTER VIII. 
 
 THE ORIGIN OF THE CATACOMBS THE CHRISTIANS USING THEM AS 
 
 A REFUGE AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP AS A BURIAL-PLACE 
 
 FORGOTTEN AND AFTERWARDS DISCOVERED RESORTED TO FOR 
 
 RELICS A VISIT TO THEM DESCRIPTION OF THEIR PRESENT 
 
 STATE MEANS OR TESTS FOR THE DISCOVERY OF RELICS 
 
 COLLECTION OF MONUMENTAL INSCRIPTIONS FOUND IN THE CATA- 
 COMBS THEIR CHARACTER AND NATURE A CONVERSATION IN 
 
 THE COLLEGE OF THE JESUITS RESPECTING THEM CONCLUSION 
 
 AS TO THE RELIGION OF THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH. page 213 
 
MORNINGS AMONG THE JESUITS AT ROME. 
 
MOBNINGS AMONG THE JESUITS 
 
 AT EOME. 
 
 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 In committing the following pages to the press, it is 
 felt that some few words of introduction are required, 
 to account for their origin and to explain their nature. 
 
 Having visited Rome, not only to gratify and indulge 
 my taste for the arts among the most exquisite sculp- 
 tures, and the most beautiful pictures, the greatest 
 miracles of art in the world, — having visited that city 
 not only that I might look at the ruins, — the glorious 
 ruins, of the temples, and baths, and palaces of the 
 conquerors of the world, and to wander among those 
 scenes where lived and walked the heroes of the past, 
 but also and chiefly that I might see and study the 
 true genius of the Church of Rome, and judge for my- 
 
 B 
 
2 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 self as to her nature and character, I felt it to be my 
 duty to avail myself of every means in my power to ob- 
 tain information on the subject. 
 
 Two sources of information immediately presented 
 themselves. One was derived from my own means and 
 opportunities for personal observation : I therefore care- 
 fully attended all the various services of the Church, — 
 was a watchful observer at every procession, — attended 
 every exhibition of relics, — was at every church on all 
 unusual ceremonials, — attended every place at which 
 the Pope or the Cardinals were expected, — took my 
 place at every ordination, at every funeral of Cardinals 
 or Bishops, at every reception into a nunnery, at the 
 celebration of every festival, in short, at everything that 
 could give opportunity for judging of the true nature 
 and character of the svstem, as exhibited in its outward 
 manifestation of services, ceremonials and festivals. And 
 I am bound to acknowledge the debt of gratitude, 
 which I owe to some members of the Society of Jesuits, 
 and to some lay gentlemen of Rome, for the extreme 
 kindness and courtesy with which they facilitated the 
 prosecution of my object, securing to me access to places 
 where otherwise I could not have been admitted. The 
 results of my observations thus made have already been 
 published, in my account of " A Pilgrimage to Rome." 
 The second source of information was not so dependent 
 upon myself, but was opened to me by circumstances 
 as unexpected as they were gratifying. I allude to the 
 opportunity of close intercourse with the members of 
 
INTRODUCTION. 3 
 
 the priesthood, by which I might learn their opinions 
 and feelings, and receive their explanations of all that 
 was passing around me. It arose from the following 
 circumstance. During my constant attendance at all 
 the services of the Church of Rome, I was observed by 
 a Roman gentleman who held office in the Papal court ; 
 and being acquainted with him, he remarked one day 
 to my wife, that I seemed much interested in these 
 things ; and asked whether I would not like to make the 
 acquaintance of some of the clergy. Having learned 
 from her my wishes to that effect, he called some days 
 after to say he had been with his personal friend the 
 Padre Generale, — the Father-General of the Jesuits, 
 and had mentioned to him my wish to enter into com- 
 munication with the clergy, and he seemed to intimate 
 that this was sure to convert me to the Church of Rome. 
 He added that the Father-General had directed two 
 members of the order to wait on me, to give me any in- 
 formation which I might desire. These gentleman came 
 in due course. They soon presented me to others. 
 They introduced me to the professors of their establish- 
 ment, the Collegio Romano, and thus a series of conver- 
 sations or conferences on the subject of the points at 
 issue between the Churches of England and Rome, 
 commenced and were carried on, as occasion offered, 
 during the whole period of my residence at Rome. A 
 portion of my notes of these conversations constitutes 
 this present volume^ of " Mornings among the 
 Jesuits at Rome." 
 
 B 2 
 
4 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 I dealt with all frankness with these several gentle- 
 men, as to the object of their visit. They were under 
 the impression, which they were at no pains to conceal, 
 that I was disposed favorably towards their Church ; — 
 that I was one of those Anglican clergymen, who neither 
 understand nor love the Church of England, and who, 
 in a restless dissatisfaction and love of change, are pre- 
 pared to abandon her communion for that of Rome, 
 and who only wait a little encouragement and per- 
 haps instruction, before taking the last step. I was 
 very careful to undeceive them, stating that I should be 
 most happy to confer with them on the differences be- 
 tween the two Churches, but that I could not do so 
 under a false colour, — that I was devotedly attached in 
 judgment and in feeling to the Church of England, — 
 that I looked on her as the Church of God in England, 
 and the most pure, most apostolic, most scriptural of all 
 the churches of Christendom, — that, without unchurching 
 other churches, she was still the church of my judgment 
 and of my affections ; and that I had never for a moment 
 harboured the thought of abandoning her for any other 
 church, and especially for the Church of Rome. 
 
 My new friends, for such their subsequent conduct 
 proved them to be, seemed surprised at the decision of 
 my opinions ; and expressed their wonder, that I could 
 refuse to hold communion with the Church of Rome. 
 
 I stated that I felt very strong objections, as they 
 appeared to me, against that Church ; but that if those 
 objections were removed, — if they, who were Priests of 
 
INTRODUCTION. O 
 
 the Church of Rome, could remove them, — if they, living 
 at the fountain-head of that Church, could prove them 
 futile, in that case they should find me free to act, and 
 prepared to act on my enlightened convictions, and I 
 would without hesitation join their communion. 
 
 They generally asked me to state my objections, as 
 they felt assured that they would be able to remove 
 them. 
 
 This invitation led to a series of conferences or con- 
 versations with some of these gentlemen. We ranged 
 through a very large portion of the entire field of con- 
 troversy, between the Churches of England and Rome, 
 and much was elicited that was perfectly new to me ; — 
 new, chiefly as indicative of the opinions and feelings of 
 the enlightened and learned members of the priesthood ; 
 and I was sometimes startled at the opinions expressed 
 and the feelings avowed, as exhibiting a phase of mind 
 and feeling, which has heretofore seemed to me incom- 
 patible with enlightenment and education. I have 
 learned, and must bear about me for ever the memory 
 of the lesson, never again to regard the extremities of 
 credulity, as inconsistent with the most scientific at- 
 tainments ; or to suppose that what seems the most 
 absurd and marvellous superstition, is incompatible with 
 the highest education; or to think that the utmost pros- 
 tration of the mind, is inconsistent with the loftiest 
 range of intellectual power. There was in some of my 
 friends an extraordinary amount of scientific attainments, 
 of classical erudition, of polite literature, and of great 
 
6 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 intellectual accumen ; but all seemed subdued and held, 
 as by an adamantine grasp, in everlasting subjection to 
 what seemed to them to be the religious principle. This 
 principle, which regarded the voice of the Church of 
 Rome as the voice of God Himself, was ever uppermost 
 in the mind, and held such an influence and a mastery over 
 the whole intellectual powers, over the whole rational 
 being, that it bowed in the humility of a child before 
 everything, that came with even the apparent authority 
 of the Church. I never could have believed the extent 
 of this, if I had not witnessed it in these remarkable 
 instances. They seemed to regard the canons of the 
 Church, precisely as we regard the decisions of Scripture; 
 and just as we regard any unbelief of the statements of 
 Holy Scripture as Infidelity, so they regard every 
 doubt as to the judgment of the Church as the worst 
 infidelity. It seemed as if a doubt of it never cast its 
 shadow across their minds. 
 
 But my friends argued in these conferences at a con- 
 siderable disadvantage. They imagined, that I was 
 unacquainted with the controversy between the churches, 
 that I was disposed in my principles and views to join 
 the Church of Rome, that I was already convinced that 
 I ought to join her communion, and that my objections 
 were only a sort of make-believe. They imagined that 
 I entered on these conferences in an easy, free, unpre- 
 pared state and without any view to controversy ; and 
 they therefore were induced to express themselves more 
 freely and openly, less guardedly than perhaps they 
 
INTRODUCTION. 7 
 
 otherwise would have done. This placed them in some 
 respects at a disadvantage, which I am bound in candor 
 to acknowledge ; and one that was particularly service- 
 able to me, as calculated to secure to me the more free 
 expression of their real sentiments and feelings. But 
 at the same time it was not without its disadvantages to 
 myself. I dared not distinctly assume the position of a 
 Protestant controversialist, as it would in the first place 
 have led to their immediate withdrawal from all commu- 
 nication with me ; and in the next place, in case I ex- 
 hibited anything like a proselytising spirit, there was 
 every probability my passports would be sent to me, 
 with orders from the police to withdraw from Rome. 
 This necessitated great caution on my part, and obliged 
 me to hold back many things that I might otherwise 
 have urged, and in all faithfulness should have urged ; 
 and it obliged me to confine myself to one object, namely, 
 the obtaining information as to the sentiments and feel- 
 ings of the Priests at Rome. If I could draw them out, 
 — if I could elicit their real mind, — if I could ascertain 
 the real nature of their religion, — and their mode of 
 argument as developed in free and familiar conversation, 
 — if I could occasionally advance an objection that might 
 awaken a doubt, or suggest a new train of thought in 
 their minds, which might ultimately lead to better things, 
 then I should have obtained all I could under the cir- 
 cumstances reasonably hope or expect to obtain. And 
 thus we all labored, both they and myself, under certain 
 disadvantages, and to this must be attributed by the 
 
8 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 gentle and Christian reader, much of the peculiarities 
 that characterize these conferences, and strip them of 
 much of the point and life and spirit of antagonism 
 which some persons might have expected. 
 
 In all these conversations I acted for the best,, and to 
 the best of my feeble judgment. If I have done wrong, 
 either in my close examination of the services of the 
 Roman Church, or in my mode of conducting these 
 conversations, I have only to bow my head in meekness, 
 and pray that He, whom 1 desire to serve, may pardon 
 his servant. 
 
 I have now only to add in reference to the accuracy 
 of these notes, that they were always written on the 
 very da}' on which each conversation was held. While 
 actually in conversation, I often made it a point to make 
 a note of what they said, and my mode of doing so was 
 not discourteous, but seemed at the time to be giving 
 importance to their words, as if they appeared to me 
 deserving of an accurate record. But on every occasion 
 without exception, the moment they left me I imme- 
 diately committed the whole to paper. The conversa- 
 tions, as now presented to the public, are very little else 
 than an accurate transcript of some of my notes thus 
 taken at the time. 
 
CHAPTER I. 
 
 AN ORDINATION — A VISIT OF THE JESUITS — EXPLANATION OP MY VIEWS — 
 THE LAYING ON OF HANDS — THE PRIESTLY POWER OF ABSOLUTION AND 
 OF SACRIFICE — THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT AT OXFORD — THE RELIGIOUS 
 MOVEMENT IN GERMANY — THE NATURE OF THE ABSOLVING POWER — 
 WHETHER JUDICIAL OR DECLARATORY — THE OPINIONS OF THE TWO 
 CHURCHES COMPARED. 
 
 The day was far advanced, when the hour appointed for 
 the visit of the Jesuits had arrived. The morning had 
 been occupied by me in attendance at the great Church, 
 or Basilica of S. Giovanni di Laterano. It is the Senior 
 Basilica of Rome, taking precedence even of St. Peter's 
 itself. The object of my attendance there was to witness 
 the form of ordination. Ninety- two young men were 
 that morning ordained, admitted into the various orders 
 of the Church of Rome. They are seven in number, 
 and I was glad of the opportunity of witnessing the 
 ceremonial ; and certainly it was a deeply interesting 
 sight, for however I might dissent from the system of 
 the Church, and however strongly I might feel at what 
 might seem to be superstitious, or superfluous, or un- 
 
]0 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 scriptural, it yet could not fail of being a touching and 
 beautiful sight, the self-devotion and vowed consecration 
 of ninety- two men, in the flower and vigor of early 
 manhood, to the service of God. As the several candi- 
 dates for the various orders performed the prescribed 
 ceremonials, according to the rules of the Pontifical, — 
 as I held the Pontifical in my hand and carefully fol- 
 lowed every step in its performance, — as I saw some 
 standing, some kneeling, and some prostrate with face 
 on the earth, — as I observed some receiving one order 
 and some another, in different yet regulated forms, — as I 
 saw the laying on of hands, the tonsure, the giving the 
 chalice, the unfolding the chasuble, the tying the hands, 
 the anointing the fingers, the washing, the communion, 
 1 could not but feel that the formalities were very puerile, 
 but I felt still more my heart stirring within me in 
 prayer, that the Holy Ghost might indeed descend from 
 above, and make them faithful and fearless in preaching 
 the everlasting gospel of Christ. It was the Cardinal- 
 Vicar who conferred the orders. 
 
 I had returned home after this spectacle, and was 
 looking over the Pontifical, examining a point which 
 had much impressed me, when two visitors were an- 
 nounced. They were two Jesuits. They came in the 
 peculiar costume of the order. One was a Priest, and 
 the other a Lay-Brother, but according to the rule of 
 the order, as observed at Rome, they were robed alike, 
 the whole body, from the Padre-Generale himself, to the 
 lowliest Lay-Brother who is porter at the gate, being 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. ] 1 
 
 dressed in costume precisely the same. It consists of a 
 black cassock, extending from the throat to the ankles, 
 without any ornament beyond a little brass medal and 
 chain, appended to the waist. The cravat is white, 
 but so narrow as to be scarcely observable above the 
 cassock, and over all is a black cloak, neat, plain and 
 without sleeves. The hat is remarkable for the great 
 breadth of its leaf. It is not red like those of the Cardi- 
 nals, nor white like those of the Camaldolines, nor deco- 
 rated with rosettes and bands of orange, green, &c, like 
 those of the Prelates, all which seem so strange to our 
 English tastes. It is black and turned up slightly at the 
 sides, without any bow or other ornament. The costume as 
 a whole is neat, and seemly, and as elegant and becoming 
 as any ecclesiastical or academic costume can be. It 
 certainly surpasses in this particular, the style and ap- 
 pearance of the other monastic or religious orders ; for 
 it bears the stamp of studied neatness and propriety, 
 while that of some of the other orders is exquisitely 
 grotesque and ridiculous. 
 
 In a few moments we all were as much at ease, as the 
 peculiar object and nature of the visit could permit. The 
 interchange of mutual courtesies and some words upon 
 general subjects, soon led to the object of our meeting. 
 
 The reverend Padre opened it, by saying that he had 
 been directed to wait on me in consequence of my desire 
 for information as to some particulars in the Church of 
 Rome, — that he was informed that I was an Anglican 
 clergyman, who was wishing to withdraw from the 
 
12 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Church of England, and to hold communion with the 
 Catholic Church ; and that he came to assist me, as far 
 as lay in his power, in carrying out my desire. And he 
 concluded by asking me in an earnest manner and in an 
 under voice, whether there was anything particular 
 which I wished to communicate. 
 
 I did not choose to notice this sotto voce communica- 
 tion, but I said at once that there must be some mis- 
 take ; that some one must have misinformed him ; for 
 that I was an attached member of the Church of Eng- 
 land, — that I had as one of her clergy held preferment in 
 her, but had resigned my appointment, — that I was per- 
 fectly independent in my circumstances and my feelings, 
 — that I had always been warmly opposed to the Church 
 of Rome, as well as sincerely attached to the Church of 
 England ; and that I had now visited Rome, with a de- 
 sire to see and judge all things for myself, to change, 
 modify, or confirm my former opinions, after a free and 
 fair examination of everything to which I might be so 
 fortunate as to obtain access. 
 
 He stated at once and with extreme courtesy, the 
 pleasure he should feel in facilitating my object, and 
 expressed his readiness to give me all the information 
 in his power. But that he did not see why I should be 
 unwilling to join the communion of his Church ; since it 
 was allowed by all parties that there was a true Church 
 at Rome, and that there was no other than one, and 
 therefore he thought that, as an Anglican clergyman, 
 I might not be unwilling to do as did some others,— 
 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 13 
 
 namely, while at Rome, join in the communion of that 
 church. 
 
 I replied that, whether rightly or wrongly founded, I 
 felt great and strong prejudices against the Church of 
 Rome, — that all my feelings and experience were against 
 her ; and that I felt so many objections and difficulties 
 against communicating with her, that there was much 
 to be answered and removed before I could give him 
 any hope of my joining her ; but that I was fully pre- 
 pared to hear all that might be said in her defence, and 
 that I believed myself sufficiently open to conviction, 
 and sufficiently candid to acknowledge it, if convinced, 
 and sufficiently fearless to act on it. 
 
 He questioned me as to the nature of my difficulties, 
 and suggested naturally to me that I should state my 
 objections, that he might have the opportunity of re- 
 moving them. 
 
 I could not but acquiesce in this. It was precisely the 
 position in which I desired to be placed. But I felt 
 that my commencement must be with extreme caution, 
 lest 1 should awaken suspicion and elicit actual opposi- 
 tion. I wished to be an enquirer, rather than a con- 
 trovertist ; and I was led to begin with a point that ex- 
 actly suited my object with a man, who imagined me to 
 be one of those, who under the name of Anglican clergy, 
 have all their ideas and feelings, all their minds and 
 hearts with the Roman Church. The Roman Ponti- 
 fical was in my hands at the moment. 
 
 I told him, that I had attended at the ordination that 
 
14 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 morning at S, Giovanni di Laterano, — that I had ob- 
 served what was to mv mind a most remarkable omis- 
 sion, namely, the omission of the " laying on of hands," 
 as the act of ordination ; — that, although there was at an 
 early part of the ceremonial a laying on of hands, yet 
 it was only for the purpose of designation, and not of 
 ordination ; — as designating the person to be afterwards 
 ordained, and not as the act of ordination itself, — that 
 the candidates for orders were called ordinandi even 
 after laying on of hands, shewing that they were not re- 
 garded as ordained by that act, but only set apart to be 
 afterivards ordained, and that they were not called ordi- 
 nati until the chalice was given to them, with the words 
 " accipe protestatem, &e." " receive power to offer the 
 sacrifice of the mass for the living and the dead." I said 
 that this shewed that, in the Church of Rome, orders 
 were conferred, not by laying on of hands with prayer, 
 but by the delivering of the chalice, &c. ; whereas, 
 if, as some suppose in England, the virtue of orders 
 in the apostolic succession can only pass through the 
 hands of the ordaining bishop, there can be none 
 such in the Church of Rome. In her the virtue or grace 
 of the apostolic succession passes through the chalice, 
 and not through the laying on of the hands of the 
 bishop. 
 
 He replied by saying that the ordination was a con- 
 tinuous act, one that commenced with the laying on of 
 hands, and ended with the delivering of the chalice, — 
 that though the former was for designation, and the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 15 
 
 latter was for ordination, yet with the former was con- 
 nected the power of absolution, and with the latter the 
 power of sacrificing, — that by the former was conferred 
 the power of absolving sins, and by the latter the power 
 of offering the sacrifice of the mass. He argued thus 
 that it was to be regarded as one act. 
 
 After some further conversation on this point he went 
 on to say, that there were two distinct powers conferred 
 upon a Priest. One being inherent in his priesthood 
 and inherent in every priest, — a power over the literal 
 and natural body of our Lord, that is, the power of 
 transubstantiation ; the other being null and void unless 
 with the sanction of the bishop ; not inherent in his 
 priesthood, but ceded to the priest by the bishop, that 
 is, the power over his mystical or spiritual body, in 
 other words — the power of absolution. 
 
 I said that I was to infer from this that a priest could 
 celebrate mass, that is, could transubstantiate the bread 
 and wine into Christ, and offer him for the sins of the 
 living and the dead without the sanction of the bishop, 
 but that he could not absolve the sins of his people 
 without that episcopal sanction. 
 
 He replied that this was precisely the case ; that he 
 could celebrate mass without the bishop, but could 
 not absolve from sins without the bishop ; that the for- 
 mer power was inherent in his priesthood, the latter not. 
 
 I felt that he had placed himself in a difficult position 
 by this statement ; so I remarked, — If a priest has no 
 power to pronounce absolution, without the bishop's 
 
16 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 licence ; and yet can say mass without it, then there can 
 be no efficacy in the absolution which he reads, and 
 which the canon of the mass requires him to read. 
 Assuredly if he can celebrate mass of his inherent power, 
 he can give absolution of his inherent power; for that 
 absolution is part of the mass, and is therefore involved 
 in it. 
 
 His answer to this was very remarkable. He had 
 no way of escape but one, and that one he did not hesi- 
 tate to adopt. He said that the absolution involved in 
 the mass is of no value or efficacy,- — that it is only a 
 general absolution of persons of whose sins the priest 
 knows nothing, and of whose repentance he knows 
 nothing, and therefore it is of no efficacy or value, and 
 has no effect ; for, he continued, if the persons have re- 
 pented, then God has already forgiven them, and if they 
 have not repented, then this absolution in the mass can- 
 not help them. 
 
 I was conscious of the advantage which I might de- 
 rive from this statement, and I therefore took care to 
 dwell on it and to reiterate it, that it might become an 
 assumed point, an admitted principle between us to be 
 employed in our after-argument. I waited patiently 
 till our conversation should take such a turn, that 
 I might avail myself effectively of so important an 
 admission. 
 
 The conversation immediately took another direction. 
 He asked me respecting the movement at Oxford; re- 
 marking that the Anglican Church was now in a most 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 17 
 
 interesting state, — that it was giving great promise of 
 many and of better things, — that the late or present 
 religious movement within her, was now interesting all 
 Rome, and Europe, and the whole world. And he con- 
 cluded by asking me my opinion of the movement. 
 
 This was the very last question which I wished to 
 answer. I felt it might oblige me to avow my opinions 
 sooner as well as more strongly than I desired. I 
 feared the question might have been proposed with the 
 view to test me, to ascertain my party ; and thus to 
 determine the course he should pursue. I knew that 
 if I at once avowed myself a decided antagonist, he 
 would withdraw from all further intercourse with me. 
 
 I therefore answered his enquiry by saying, that I 
 had been careful to read all the " Tracts for the Times," 
 which were the profession of faith with those, among 
 whom the movement originated, — that I did not agree 
 with many of their statements and principles ; and that 
 I thought that my reverend friend was mistaken as to 
 their probable effect on the mind of the people of Eng- 
 land, — an effect of the very opposite character from 
 that which seemed to be the intention of those who 
 originated it. 
 
 He asked me, whether I did not think that they 
 tended to create a similarity or union of the Anglican 
 Church with the Roman Church. 
 
 I replied that such seemed to be the intention of the 
 parties. They seemed yearning for a union with Rome, 
 but that 1 apprehended a very different and opposite 
 
 c 
 
18 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 result; — that their proceedings would evoke, and indeed 
 had already evoked an antagonist spirit, which would be 
 altogether too powerful for them, and I feared would 
 do incalculable mischief to the Church. 
 
 He said he was aware that the Anglican Bishops in 
 general had set themselves against the movement, but 
 he seemed to treat their interference very lightly. He 
 then begged of me to explain my idea of the manner in 
 which the movement was likely to operate. 
 
 I answered, that the Anglican Church stood between 
 two systems, — between Romanism and Dissent. These 
 were the two extremes, to one or other of which all 
 who loved extremes were likely to precipitate them- 
 selves. The party of the movement desired to draw 
 her nearer and nearer to Rome, — to give her more and 
 more a similarity to the Church of Rome ; and by that 
 very course had led their opponents to run into the 
 opposite extreme. It had evoked an antagonist spirit, 
 that was sure to lead nearer and nearer to Dissent ; and 
 I added that my own conviction was, that the real evil, 
 the impending danger, was, the people forsaking the 
 Church of England, as a Church declining towards 
 Rome ; and then utterly overthrowing and destroying 
 her, — a danger like that which arose out of the proceed- 
 ings of Archbishop Laud, in the time of Charles I. ; 
 namely, the utter subversion of the Church of England. 
 
 He intimated that he had not seen the movement 
 in that light, but rather regarded it as one likely to lead 
 the Church of England towards the Church of Rome, — 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 19 
 
 that all parties of all Churches seemed agreed, that the 
 movement could not stop where it was, — that the active 
 movers would come over, and if honest in their state- 
 ments, and sincere in their opinions, must come over — 
 to the Church of Rome ; and that so far at least the 
 Church of Rome must be a gainer ; — that however it 
 might end for the Church of England, it must prove a 
 gain to the Church of Rome, — that they could not re- 
 main as they were, but must go further ; and he felt that 
 the course taken by such good men was certain to exert 
 a great weight and influence upon others. 
 
 I was silent, except so far as assenting to his opinion 
 respecting the parties engaged in the movement. He 
 observed this, and continued to say, that there was a 
 large section of the Church of England, — and that too 
 an increasing section, — steadily and surely inclining to 
 the Church of Rome ; that thus a great division existed 
 in the very heart of the Church of England, and that 
 thus there were many, who would embrace, and were 
 embracing the very system against which I objected ; 
 and he added that although I might not be aware of the 
 fact, yet he knew it from sources of information that 
 were not accessible to all, that multitudes in England 
 were privately coming over to the Church of Rome. 
 
 On my remarking in reply, that his statement was 
 very probable, and that the members of his order, the 
 order of Jesuits, were likely to have very accurate in- 
 formation, he said that the existence of such a division 
 in the Church of England, w T as a strong argument against 
 
 C 2 
 
20 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 my remaining in her, and that the multitude of good 
 men leaving her and entering the Church of Rome, 
 was a further argument for my forsaking the one Church, 
 and embracing the other, — in short that it formed a 
 strong objection to remaining in the Church of England. 
 I said, in as quiet a tone as I could command, as if 
 indifferent to the result of my words, that I did not see 
 how his statement as to the facts, whether true or un- 
 true, could affect the principle of the question, — that I 
 thought the argument derived from the existence of a 
 division or counter-movement in a Church, was an argu- 
 ment that cut both ways ; that at that moment there 
 was a division and movement in the Church of Rome, 
 arising out of the exhibition of the Holy Coat at 
 Treves;* and that several of the priesthood were the 
 leaders of the movement, — that these parties were calling 
 for a change or reformation in several particulars, — 
 that they were demanding that the sacramental cup 
 should be given to the laity, — that some of them were 
 actually administering it, — that they were celebrating 
 their services in the vernacular tongue, — that they were 
 calling for a rescinding of the laws on the celibacy of 
 the priesthood, — that this movement occurring in Ger- 
 many, was quite as marked in the Church of Rome, as 
 
 * This conversation was held, when the excitement in Germany was at 
 its height. The Roman government suppressed every newspaper of all nations 
 mentioning it. The Roman people were profoundly ignorant of it, and even 
 the English learned it only through the means of private correspondence. 
 Newspapers describing it were suppressed at the post office, and not delivered 
 even to the English residents. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 21 
 
 the movement at Oxford in the Church of England ; 
 and therefore, I added, the movement in Germany was 
 as cogent an objection to the Church of Rome, as the 
 movement at Oxford was to the Church of England. 
 
 He flushed and fired at this statement, declaring that 
 the movement in Germany was nothing, — that they 
 were only a set of rebels, — that they were merely a few 
 rebellious priests who would soon be brought down. 
 They were unworthy of notice, bad and rebellious 
 priests, who would soon be reduced to obedience. 
 
 I said that he seemed mistaken, — that as the papal 
 government excluded i( the Times," and other English, 
 German, and French papers, describing the movement, 
 not permitting the facts to be made known at Rome, it 
 was possible he was not aware of the extent and im- 
 portance of the movement, — that they circulated only 
 those papers which were hostile to the movement, and 
 that thus I apprehended he might be deceiving himself, 
 as to the extent and importance of the movement, which 
 had already succeeded to a considerable extent. 
 
 My reverend friend was thoroughly upset and irri- 
 tated by this turn of the conversation, and I was glad 
 to let it pass to other topics, even though connected 
 with the movement at Oxford. He observed that he 
 thought the Church of England very inconsistent to- 
 wards these men and towards herself, — that she admitted 
 the ancient and Catholic sacrament of penance ; that is, 
 as he explained it, she recognised the power of absolu- 
 tion, but that she did not exercise it, — that she went so 
 
22 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 far as to confer that power on her priests, but expelled 
 them for exercising it, — that the Lutheran and the 
 Reformed Churches had rejected the thing altogether ; 
 and were therefore consistent, but that the Anglican 
 Church admitted and recognised the thing, — conferred 
 the power on her Priests, — but did not exercise it, and 
 was inconsistent. 
 
 I said that I thought he did wrong to the Anglican 
 Church ; that she recognised and held a certain power, — 
 that she conferred this power on her ministers, — that 
 those ministers exercised that power, and were not, as 
 he supposed, expelled for it, — that it was their duty and 
 constant practice to exercise all, neither more nor less 
 than the Church designed to confer on them. I then 
 added, that I feared he had misunderstood her formu- 
 laries, — that she confers only a power to declare or pro- 
 nounce authoritatively God's absolution and forgiveness 
 of sins ; and that all her ministers exercise, and cannot 
 help in her daily services exercising this power, which 
 is all the Church confers on them ; and that therefore 
 she is thus far consistent. But as she does not pretend 
 to confer a judicial power to judge the sinner and 
 absolve the sin, as in the Church of Rome,, so her 
 ministers do not pretend to exercise that, and thus there 
 is no inconsistency. 
 
 His rejoinder to this was that our Lord conferred 
 two powers, one to " bind/' and the other to "loose;" 
 and that as the bishops of the Anglican Church exer- 
 cised the power of excommunication, they therein ex- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 23 
 
 ercised the power to " bind" the sin upon the sinner, 
 but never exercised the power of " loosing " by abso- 
 lution, taking away the sin. And that this was a great 
 inconsistency. 
 
 I answered that, by our laws, if a bishop excommuni- 
 cated a person for any canonical fault, he must take off 
 that excommunication, and again receive him, on his 
 open repentance, — that if he thus exercises one power, 
 he must under these circumstances exercise the other, 
 and that thus if the excommunicating and restoring 
 power of a bishop, peculiar as it was to the bishop, and 
 not to the priest, was the power to " bind," and " loose," 
 then both were exercised among us, and there was no 
 inconsistency. I then added that if his views were 
 carried out, it would imply that the power to " bind," 
 and "loose," belonged only to the bishops and not to 
 priests. 
 
 He avoided noticing this, and reiterated his statement 
 in another form, saying that we ought to sit as judges 
 on the sinner, and exercise a judicial power over him ; 
 either binding the sin on the sinner, or loosing him from 
 his sin ; and thus placing him sinless before God in 
 order to his salvation. 
 
 I said that his words implied or seemed to convey an 
 idea, for which I was scarcely prepared, and therefore I 
 asked, — if the " loosing " the sinner from his sin makes 
 him sinless before God and so secures his salvation, 
 would not the " binding " his sin upon the sinner keep 
 him sinful before God, and so ensure his damnation ? I 
 
24 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 added that one must be co-extensive with the other, 
 and it would be placing the damnation as well as the 
 salvation of the man, in the hands of the priest. 
 
 He avoided this, and, as if he had never heard me, 
 turned away to other subjects of a more general nature. 
 I felt very unwilling to keep him to the point, lest by 
 doing so he might be led to regard me as a controver- 
 sialist, prepared to dispute with him, rather than as an 
 Anglican clergyman in a friendly conversation, seeking 
 for information. 
 
 It was not long before we returned to the judicial 
 power of the priest. In reference to this he said, that 
 the priest was a judge to give or withhold forgiveness, 
 to bind or loose the sin as he judges best. He must 
 form his judgment to the best of his power, and bind or 
 loose accordingly; and then God confirms and fulfils 
 that judgment, binding in Hell, or loosing in Heaven, 
 according as the priest, who was his judge and reconciler, 
 should adjudge. 
 
 I asked whether, — seeing that the priest was but a 
 man, and therefore liable to an error in judgment, — 
 his judgment was always and certainly confirmed and 
 fulfilled by God, damning or saving, according as the 
 priest bound or loosed on earth. I added that my 
 question had special reference to such a supposed case, 
 as the priest making an error in judgment; as in that 
 case, although in error, it would seem that he had 
 unlimited power for saving or damning, if his judgment 
 on earth was always confirmed in heaven. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 25 
 
 He replied, that of course where the priest as judge 
 erred in his judgment, as to the repentance of the sinner* 
 and the absolution of the sin, his judgment was not 
 affirmed by God, — that in that case, though he bound 
 on earth, yet it was not bound in heaven ; and though 
 he loosed on earth, it was not loosed in heaven. 
 
 I said I wished to understand this point clearly, and 
 begged he would correct me if I was wrong, in inferring 
 that if the priest judged erroneously, as to the repent- 
 ance or non-repentance of the sinner ; and. if he acted 
 on that erroneous judgment, in binding or loosing the 
 sinner, it would then be of no avail. I asked especially 
 whether in such a case, the absolution of this judge, 
 sitting and judging judicially, was of any value. 
 
 He answered emphatically that it was " void." 
 
 I felt that now the argument was in my hands, and 
 my mind turned in secret to Him who alone could still 
 my nervous throbbings and excitement; and enable me 
 to speak with calmness and accuracy ; for, at times, when 
 I considered that I was dealing with men on whom I had 
 always learned to look as the most subtle controversial- 
 ists, I feared the truth might fail in my inability to 
 cope with them. 
 
 I reminded him that he had made two admissions, or 
 rather had laid down two things, which seemed to me 
 all-important in this point. In the first place he had 
 freely stated, that if the sinner had not repented, then 
 the absolution of the priest, however pronounced, was 
 " void." In the second place he had frankly stated, at 
 
26 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the commencement of our conversation respecting the 
 absolution in the mass, that if the sinner had indeed re- 
 pented, then the absolution was useless, inasmuch as he 
 was already absolved by God ; and having on repentance 
 received forgiveness from God himself, he did not need 
 the absolution of man. It would be reversing the words, 
 and reading, not " whatsoever is loosed on earth shall be 
 loosed in heaven/' but " whatsover is loosed in heaven 
 shall be loosed on earth." It was doing over again what 
 had been already done by God himself. I stated that 
 every man in England, on hearing his statements respect- 
 ing the judicial power of absolving, would argue that if 
 the sinner did repent, the absolution of man was useless, 
 inasmuch as he had already the forgiveness of God; and 
 if the sinner did not repent, the absolution, on his own 
 shewing, was void, as arising from an error of judgment 
 in the priest. I added, that this was a process of rea- 
 soning which ought to be answered, and that I should 
 feel glad if he could supply me with an adequate answer, 
 for if the point were placed in the form of a dilemma, 
 I could see no way of escape. As thus : — The sinner is 
 repentant or he is not : If he is repentant, the abso- 
 lution is useless and unnecessary, as God has already 
 forgiven him : If he is not repentant, the absolution is 
 void, as already admitted ; and therefore under these 
 circumstances, I could not see any advantage in the 
 judicial power over the declaratory power. 
 
 He perfectly understood me, as I thought, but in- 
 stead of endeavouring to solve the difficulty of the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 27 
 
 dilemma, he laughed at the idea of a declaratory power. 
 He said that a power to declare and pronounce the for- 
 giveness of sins, was not the power promised to the 
 Church, — that power was a power or privilege, not 
 peculiar to the Priesthood, but common to the Laity ; 
 — that the power promised by our Lord to his Church, 
 was a power peculiar to the office of the Priesthood ; 
 and that therefore it could not be the power of declaring 
 and pronouncing the forgiveness of sins, inasmuch as 
 all men, not only Priests but Laymen, not only men 
 but women, can pronounce and declare that forgiveness. 
 And therefore, he argued, the priestly power of ab- 
 solving, must be not only declaratory but judicial. 
 
 I said in reply to this, that however satisfactory his 
 statement might appear to the Italian mind, I appre- 
 hended it would prove otherwise to the mind of Eng- 
 land, — that it was there felt that a Layman could declare 
 God's forgiveness of sin, as well and as accurately as a 
 Clergyman, but not so authoritatively. I said, If the 
 sovereign of England sends a message of peace or of 
 war, or aught else, to the sovereign of France, it is sent 
 through a special messenger, a Herald or Ambassador, 
 or other authorised person. Such person comes with 
 authority. His message is declared with authority. 
 He is not the judge to decide judicially, whether there 
 shall be peace or war, but he is to " declare and pro- 
 nounce" with authority the message of the sovereign. 
 But any other man, even any woman, may deliver that 
 message as well, as clearly and as accurately, but not as 
 
28 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 authoritatively. All such speak without authority. The 
 appointed or authorized person alone speaks with autho- 
 rity. In the same way God sends forth his message, 
 through " the ministers and stewards of the Church." 
 They are the authorised Heralds or Ambassadors of 
 Heaven. They go forth with authority. And though 
 other persons may deliver the message of forgiveness of 
 sins, as clearly and as well, yet they do so without the au- 
 thority of the commissioned persons. Again, I continued 
 to argue, if a sovereign in the exercise of his prerogative 
 pardons a criminal, any person may tell that criminal 
 of his coming pardon, may " declare and pronounce M 
 his pardon ; but the criminal will not be satisfied or 
 comforted with the words of these unauthorised persons, 
 and he waits for the Sheriff or lawful officer, he waits 
 for the authorised person who alone can come with au- 
 thority, to " declare and pronounce ' the sovereign's 
 pardon. And thus we arrive at two points. — first, the 
 Official does not sit himself as judge, to act judicially 
 and confer the pardon, but only to " declare and pro- 
 nounce " the forgiveness of the sovereign ; and secondly, 
 he does it with authority, as the only authorised person ; 
 and therefore he does it far more acceptably and satis- 
 factorily, then can be done by any unauthorised person. 
 This I stated was the true position of the ministers of 
 the Church. 
 
 He seemed at a loss for a reply to this, acknowledging 
 that there certainly was a great advantage in the decla- 
 ration being made by an authorised minister or official, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 29 
 
 that there was some difference between the authorised 
 minister on one hand, and the unauthorised layman on 
 the other, pronouncing and declaring God's forgiveness 
 of sins. But still he thought it an inconsistency in the 
 Church of England, retaining the form in her liturgy, 
 and not exercising the power in her practice ; and he 
 felt this the more strongly as he could understand the 
 Lutherans, the Reformed, the Dissenters who rejected 
 the whole doctrine ; — they rejected all pretension to this 
 power, and therefore were consistent in not exercising 
 it ; but the Anglican Churches alone had retained the 
 hierarchy, the liturgy and other elements of the Church, 
 admitting the existence of this power of absolution, but 
 wholly neglecting to exercise it. He added, that Christ 
 gave to the Apostle Peter the power to bind and loose, to 
 absolve and retain sins, — that that power was inherent in 
 the Priesthood of the Catholic Church, and that it ought 
 to be exercised for the punishment of the sinner, and 
 for the comfort of the penitent. 
 
 I said, that I feared he had misunderstood the nature 
 of the power of which he spake ; and I endeavored to 
 explain my views of it. I commenced by stating, that 
 the words binding and loosing, absolving and retaining, 
 were words in use among the Jews in reference to 
 leprosy and to lepers. When a man was afflicted with 
 leprosy, the priest was required under the law to declare 
 him unclean, and therefore to shut him up or bind or 
 retain him, thus excluding him from the congregation, 
 lest he might infect others with his loathsome disease ; 
 
30 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and when the man was healed, the priest pronounced 
 him clean, and then loosed or absolved him and per- 
 mitted him again to mingle with the people. Now our 
 Lord in using this language, referred to that which was 
 familiar to the people. It is this explains our Lord's 
 words. On referring to the law of leprosy, as set forth 
 in Leviticus xiii. the words employed in the Septuagint 
 are of vast importance on this particular. When the 
 man was brought to the priest and seen to be leprous, 
 the priest was to declare or pronounce him unclean. 
 The word is peavEt, that is, the priest shall defile him, — 
 shall unclean him ; whereas the man was already defiled, 
 or unclean ; and the priest was not to give the leprosy 
 to the man, but only to declare and pronounce that he 
 was defiled or unclean by the disease. The priest is 
 thus said to do that which he only declares, or pro- 
 nounces is already done by God. Again, when the man 
 is recovered, and the priest sees him cured by the hand 
 of God, then he was to declare and pronounce him clean. 
 The word is KaOapisi, that is, the priest shall clean him ; 
 whereas the man was already clean of his leprosy; and 
 the priest was not to take away the disease, but only to 
 declare and pronounce that the man was clean. The 
 priest is thus said to do that which he only declared and 
 pronounced to be already clone by God. It is evident 
 that the priest neither gave the disease, nor cured the 
 disease, — neither imparted it, nor took it away. It was 
 the Almighty who both inflicted it, and removed it ; and 
 yet in the language of Leviticus, the priest is said to do 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 31 
 
 both one and the other ; and therefore it may be argued 
 that in the language of Scripture, the priest is said him- 
 self to do that which he is only appointed to declare 
 and pronounce to be already done in the providence of 
 God. This language pervades the whole law of leprosy, 
 being repeated again and again, see verses, 3, 6, 11, 13, 
 &c. And as the Septuagint was in general use in our 
 Lord's days, so his language, adopted from the Jewish 
 habit or mode of speech, was clearly understood ; and 
 when he desired his Apostles to bind and loose the 
 sinner, to forgive and retain the sin, he meant no more 
 than that they, like the priest in the matter of leprosy, 
 were to declare and pronounce the forgiveness of sins* 
 using phrases perfectly intelligible to Jews, implying 
 that God had already forgiven them. I added that as 
 the Church of England only gave this power to her 
 ministers, and intended no more than this in her Liturgy, 
 her ministers dared not proceed farther. They exer- 
 cised all the power they received or possessed, and 
 therefore were not liable to the charge of inconsistency, 
 as possessing a power, which they did not exercise. 
 
 He made no attempt to weaken this explanation of 
 the peculiar phraseology of the Jewish law, as adopted 
 by our Lord; but dwelt on the comfort and advantage of 
 allowing a judicial power to the priesthood ; and then 
 leaving this subject altogether, he entered upon a narra- 
 tion of the circumstances connected with the conversion 
 of a Lutheran minister of Germany, who had forsaken 
 all, and coming to Rome, was graciously received by the 
 
32 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Pope, and was led to embrace the faith and practice of 
 the Church of Rome. He then detailed the circum- 
 stances connected with the conversion of a Protestant 
 clergyman of America, who had come to Rome with his 
 wife and children, and was received into the Church. 
 He was now studying and preparing for admission into 
 the order of the Jesuits, and also for admission to the 
 priesthood. He had already been admitted into the in- 
 ferior orders. His wife, by the kindness of his Holiness 
 the Pope, was admitted into a nunnery ; and being 
 musical, assists in giving musical instruction to the pupils 
 who attend at the nunnery. She has not however as 
 yet taken the veil, or made those vows by which she is 
 to be for ever removed from her husband, and he may 
 be enabled to enter into the priesthood. 
 
 My reverend friend dwelt at considerable length, and 
 with lively interest, on the conversion of these parties. 
 He seemed to think his narrative might have some effect, 
 in inducing me to follow the example. But although I 
 watched narrowly his detail, yet I could observe nothing 
 in the way of argument or motive, that requires repe- 
 tition here. I did not interrupt his narration, but he 
 stated at the conclusion, his regret that he could not 
 meet me again for some weeks, as he was about to enter 
 upon what they call the u Retreat/ 5 that is, the ap- 
 pointed retirement in the more solitary life of a recluse. 
 In this retirement, according to the rule of the Jesuits, 
 he was to be engaged for some weeks, in reviewing 
 the past, and in meditation upon God and in re- 
 flections on the state of his own soul. In this soli- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 33 
 
 tude he was to be occupied in examining, for what 
 object God had sent him into this world, — how far 
 he had heretofore been employed in carrying out that 
 object, — what he had really been doing in time past 
 for the glory of His God ; and what he would now pre- 
 pare and resolve to accomplish for the future. He 
 dwelt on all this, in a manner that shewed he wished to 
 impress my mind with a sense of the holiness and de- 
 votion that characterised the order of the Jesuits. And 
 after courteously expressing many regrets, that he was 
 precluded by the rules of his order, from conferring 
 further with me till his " retreat " was concluded, he 
 proposed to introduce to me some other members of 
 the order, to converse with me in the meantime, and 
 give me any information I might require or they could 
 impart. I thanked him warmly for the opportunity 
 he thus afforded me of extending my acquaintance 
 among the Roman priesthood ; and with reciprocal ex- 
 pressions of kindness and courtesy we parted. 
 
 The next day he again visited me, and introduced 
 two others, who remained with me for some hours. He 
 himself immediately retired. And thus an unexpected 
 way was opened to an extended acquaintance with men, 
 whom I could not otherwise have known. They intro- 
 duced me kindly and courteously to their college, and 
 presented me to all their professors of the Collegio 
 Romano. Some of my conversations with these gentle- 
 men shall hereafter be narrated. 
 
 D 
 
31 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER II. 
 
 THE GROSSNESS OF SOME SUPERSTITIONS — WHETHER SANCTIONED BY THE 
 CHURCH OP ROME — CONTRAST BETWEEN THE RELIGION OF THE ENGLISH 
 AND THE ITALIANS — THE VIRTUE OF MIRACULOUS PICTURES — THE REALITY 
 OF THEIR MIRACLES ASSERTED AND EXPLAINED — A CONVERT IN A 
 NUNNERY — PARALLEL BETWEEN EVE AND MARY — THE RELIGION OF 
 CHRIST BECOMING THE RELIGION OF MARY — THE NATURE OF THIS PRO- 
 CESS EXPLAINED — MARY MORE MERCIFUL THAN CHRIST. 
 
 Very shortly after this interview, one of my friends, who 
 had undertaken to resolve my doubts and remove my 
 objections to the Church of Rome, visited me again; 
 and after some preliminary conversation, he invited me 
 to state my feelings. 
 
 I commenced by stating that I was very intimate 
 with many of the popular objections to the Church of 
 Rome; that those objections had considerable influence 
 upon many holy and good men ; that although some 
 persons regarded them as founded on what might per- 
 haps be regarded as an extravagant portraiture, as a 
 caricature of Romanism, yet they had considerable 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 35 
 
 weight, and ought to be clearly got rid of and removed 
 from the field of controversy. I stated that there ap- 
 peared to be many things that seemed not only extrava- 
 gant, but even impossible from their palpable absurdity ; 
 things that at times seemed so gross that no reasonable 
 credulity could stand them ; and had the effect of raising 
 an insurmountable objection against any communion 
 with the Church of Rome, if indeed these things were 
 part and parcel of her system, or in any way essential 
 to her completeness; and I added that if they were not 
 essential they ought to have been got rid of as offensive 
 to so many persons. 
 
 He replied, that he quite felt that there were many 
 things to which my remarks would very justly apply, 
 but that there were many others that were extravagant 
 or absurd only in appearance ; and that it not unfre- 
 quently occurred that those things that at one time 
 seemed liable to insurmountable objections, were after- 
 wards adopted by converts without the least scruple or 
 difficulty. He therefore wished me to specify some 
 illustration. 
 
 I referred in return to the miraculous picture of the 
 Virgin Mary, in the Church of S. Maria Maggiore — to 
 the miraculous image of our Lord as a child in the 
 church at Aracceli — to the miraculous image of the 
 Virgin Mary in the Church of the Augustines ; and to 
 several other pictures and images, which were said to 
 be miraculous, and which were worshipped with a special 
 and peculiar devotion — were crowned and carried in pro- 
 
 D 2 
 
36 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 cession precisely as the ancient heathens of Rome used 
 to carry the images of their Gods. I stated that these 
 things seemed very gross, and that usually in England 
 the advocates of the Church of Rome got rid of all ob- 
 jections derived from them by disavowing all these things 
 as abuses, as exaggerations, as bad or superstitious 
 practices, which were not acknowledged or practised by 
 the well-informed, and were not approved by the Church. 
 I therefore would take the opportunity of asking him, 
 living as he did at the fountain-head, and capable of in- 
 forming me with some authority, whether others or 
 myself could be justified in setting the objection aside 
 in that way — namely, by attributing these things to the 
 ignorance of the foolish and superstitious. 
 
 He answered without the least hesitation, and in a 
 manner that took me by surprise. He answered that I 
 had taken a very wrong view of these particulars, in re- 
 garding them as extravagant or absurd ; for, although 
 they might appear strange to me, as at one time they 
 had appeared to himself, so strange indeed as some- 
 times to be absolutely loathsome to his feelings, and 
 although he felt himself unable to justify them in them- 
 selves, yet there was no doubt of their being approved 
 in practice by the Church ; that they were no exaggera- 
 tion or caricature, but real verities, which at one time 
 were a stumbling-block and offence to his own mind. 
 He added that there was much that might be said in 
 their favor, for that the Italians were a people very 
 different from the English ; that the English loved a re- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 37 
 
 ligion of the heart, and the Italians a religion of the 
 senses ; the English a religion of the feelings, and the 
 Italians a religion for the taste ; the English an inward 
 and spiritual religion, and the Italian an outward and 
 visible religion; and that it was the intention of the 
 Church, as well as her duty, to arrange all the rites, cere- 
 monies, acts, services of religion, so as to be suitable to 
 an outward and visible religion, and calculated for the 
 mind of Italy ; and thus those particulars concerning 
 the crowning and processions of miraculous pictures 
 and miraculous images, however strange and absurd to 
 the English, have been sanctioned by the Church as both 
 natural and wise to the Italians. 
 
 I expressed in strong terms my surprise at the position 
 he had taken, expecting that he would have denied or 
 softened these things, instead of asserting and defending 
 them. And I took the opportunity of alluding to the 
 coronation of the picture of Mary, in S. Maria Maggiore 
 — a coronation by the present Pope, (Gregory XII.) 
 who crowned it amidst religious services with his own 
 hands; I also alluded to the procession which conducted 
 the same picture through the streets, in order to sup- 
 press the cholera, a procession in which the present 
 Pope joined bare-footed, and I asked whether we were 
 to regard these acts, in which all the chiefs of the church, 
 as the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops &c, took an active 
 part, as the acts of the Church, sanctioning the opinions 
 that pictures could work miracles, and that the pro- 
 cession of a picture of the Virgin Mary could possibly 
 
38 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 stay the virulence of the cholera, and that any particular 
 picture was entitled to any special or peculiar devotion, 
 as a coronation, — in short, entitled to more veneration 
 than other pictures. 
 
 To this he replied with frankness and decision, saying, 
 that he had no doubt, and that there could be no doubt 
 whatever, as to the miraculous powers of some Images 
 and Pictures ; and he explained the matter thus. It 
 sometimes occurred, he said, that some persons were 
 affected — specially affected or moved by some pictures 
 or images more than by others, that in praying before 
 these, their feelings were more touched, their sensibili- 
 ties more excited and their devotional affections more 
 drawn out in prayer ; that in answer to such prayer, 
 God not unfrequently gave responses which were more 
 marked than ordinary, and were to be regarded as mira- 
 culous answers to prayers made before miraculous pic- 
 tures or images. 
 
 I could not avoid shewing my incredulity as to all 
 this, and I certainly was as surprised as I was incredulous. 
 
 He observed this, but only continued to express him- 
 self more strongly, stating, that there was no doubt what- 
 ever as to the reality of many miracles of this nature in 
 answer to such prayers ; and that when the report of these 
 miracles spread abroad, when the public heard of them, 
 when the minds of the devout were excited by the fame 
 of them, then multitudes of persons naturally flocked 
 to such pictures and images to pray before them ; and 
 their feelings being excited, and their affections being 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 39 
 
 the more drawn out by the circumstance, there were 
 yet again other miracles wrought by God, and so these 
 images and pictures became miraculous. He added 
 that the picture of the Virgin at S. Maria Maggiore 
 was such, — that the image of Mary at the church of the 
 Augustinians was such — and that the picture of St. Igna- 
 tius praying to the Virgin in the Church of Gesu was, 
 with many others, also miraculous. 
 
 I must frankly confess that I was wholly unprepared 
 for this. In all my former experience of controversy in 
 Ireland and England, I had been told that all those 
 were the mere abuses of the superstitious, and not 
 sanctioned by the learned ; if indeed such things were 
 believed or practised anywhere. I had often heard them 
 denounced as mere fabrications — pure inventions to 
 injure the character of the Church of Rome, and I felt 
 much surprise to find them not only believed and prac- 
 tised but defended. I felt that it was opening out to 
 me a new state of things, a new phase of mind, and a 
 totally new system of faith or credulity which I had 
 never anticipated. A mind must be in a peculiar state 
 to believe in the miraculous powers of a picture or 
 image. 
 
 His explanation led me to advance a step in our 
 argument, and to say that his statements seemed to 
 imply that there was something peculiar to those images 
 and pictures, something inherent in them as compared 
 with others, something not in the Saint or Angel repre- 
 sented, but in these very pictures and images themselves. 
 
40 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I endeavoured to illustrate my meaning by suggesting 
 two pictures of the Virgin Mary placed side by side, 
 and asking whether one being supposed to be miracu- 
 lous, the people would pray before that one rather than 
 the other ; and whether he believed the Virgin Mary 
 would interfere with a miraculous answer for those who 
 prayed to her before that one rather than the other. 
 I added, that if such was the case, it went to prove a 
 belief that there was something peculiar, some virtue or 
 power, something miraculous in such a picture, in one 
 rather than the other ; and that the distinction proved 
 that the people did look for something in pictures and 
 images, more than the persons whom they were designed 
 to represent. 
 
 He gave the fullest assent to this, saying, that they 
 looked first of all to the Saint represented in the picture 
 or image, and that then, in case there was a miraculous 
 character, they looked also to that power or virtue. He 
 added, that his full belief was, that the Virgin Mary 
 was more partial to some representations of herself than 
 to others ; and that in order to induce the devout to pray 
 before these her favorite ones, she heard and answered 
 the prayers so offered, while she neglected those that 
 were offered elsewhere — answering the prayers offered 
 before one picture which she liked, and refusing those 
 offered before a picture which she did not like. 
 
 This was a degree of credulity, not to say superstition, 
 for which I was wholly unprepared : and I felt that there 
 must be something in the atmosphere of Italy, or some- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 41 
 
 thing in the training of the mind of Italy, that could 
 lead an intelligent, a travelled, and educated man to 
 such a state of credulity. I took occasion to remark, 
 — which I did with all possible courtesy, to avoid giving 
 offence, — that these things created an insurmountable 
 barrier between England and Rome. I frankly stated 
 that my judgment rejected, while my feelings recoiled 
 and revolted from them — that so long as they might be 
 regarded as mere abuses, or mere exaggerations of en- 
 thusiastic votaries, or as the pious frauds of Monks and 
 Friars, they might be borne with as things to be flung 
 away by the wise and good ; but if regarded as true, — 
 these pictures as miraculous pictures, these miracles as 
 true miracles, such worship of the Virgin a right wor- 
 ship, they then presented a difficulty which could not 
 be overcome. I felt it strange that all these things, so 
 denied in England by the advocates of Romanism, should 
 be so frankly avowed in Rome by the most intelligent 
 of her priesthood. 
 
 In reply to all this, which he received in a most amiable 
 spirit, he said that he could quite enter into my feelings 
 — that his experience was not small, and that he knew 
 of instances, where things that were at first viewed with 
 loathing were afterwards received with facility. He 
 mentioned the case of a lady, who had been a Protestant, 
 but who had entered the Church of Rome and a Con- 
 vent together. On going for the first time to confession, 
 the penance imposed for some little sin was — to say 
 the Litany of the blessed Virgin Mary ! She declined, 
 
42 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 stating how repulsive that Litany was still to her opin- 
 ions and feelings, so that she could not bring herself to 
 say it, and begged that some other penance, which she 
 could perform, might be imposed in its stead. Her re- 
 quest was complied with and she was satisfied. And 
 now her opinions and feelings have gradually and so 
 completely changed, that she is able to repeat this 
 Litany without the least repugnance. He continued to 
 say, that if I changed my religion, I should experience a 
 similar change in myself, and that what now seemed 
 revolting would become in time very easily received. 
 
 I felt that this was an unhappy case, as it seemed to 
 argue that the lady had only stifled her feelings and 
 concealed her opinions, and perhaps had become hard- 
 ened by use. And having already heard something of 
 her hard lot, her struggles with want, her admission 
 into a nunnery to enable her to live ; it looked as if her 
 sad circumstances had led to her steeling her heart, and 
 becoming careless as to any form of worship. My wife 
 afterwards met her in her convent, and had some con- 
 versation with her. She invited my wife to attend the 
 service in the chapel of the nunnery. My wife stated 
 that she had heard it was requested, that all who entered 
 the chapel should kneel and worship the Host, and that 
 no one was admitted unless on that understanding. She 
 replied that such was the case, but that my wife should 
 remember that God might be in the Host, and that 
 she might therefore safely worship him there. My 
 wife said that she knew very well, that God was not in 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 43 
 
 the Host more than in anything else ; and that be- 
 lieving this, she could not worship it without committing 
 idolatry. The lady rejoined, that surely she could kneel 
 and say her own prayers secretly, without saying them 
 to the Host. My wife replied that would be insincerity 
 and hypocrisy ; appearing in body to join in the worship, 
 while in spirit being far otherwise. The lady promptly 
 suggested, that even this was better than giving offence 
 to the congregation, by refusing to worship the Host. 
 Upon which my wife replied, it was better still to absent 
 herself, and so neither offend God on one hand or the 
 congregation on the other. This conversation left a 
 very unfavourable impression on my wife, as to the 
 simplicity and sincerity of the religious profession of 
 this converted lady. But to return : — 
 
 My clerical friend, after a pause, which I was unwill- 
 ing to break, lest I should express myself as strongly as 
 I felt, resumed the conversation, and said, that the wor- 
 ship of the Virgin Mary was a growing worship in 
 Rome — that it was increasing in depth and intenseness 
 of devotion ; and that there were now many of their 
 divines, and he spoke of himself as agreeing with them 
 in sentiment, who were teaching that as a woman brought 
 in death, so a woman was to bring in life ; — that as a 
 woman brought in sin, so a woman was to bring in holi- 
 ness ; — that as Eve brought in damnation, so Mary was 
 to bring in salvation ; and that the effect of this opinion 
 was largely to increase the reverence and worship given 
 to the Virgin Mary. 
 
44 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I said that I had read something of the kind, and 
 also that I had seen a sort of parallel in some of the 
 Fathers on the subject, but that it did not go so far as 
 the modern opinion. But in order not to misunder- 
 stand him, and to prevent any mistake as to his views, 
 I asked whether I was to understand him as implying, 
 that as we regard Eve as the first sinner, so we are to 
 regard Mary as the first Saviour ; one as the author of 
 sin, and the other as the author of the remedy. 
 
 He replied that such was precisely the view he wished 
 to express, and he added that it was taught by St. 
 Alphonso de Liguori, and was a growing opinion. He 
 seemed to think, from my seriousness of manner, that he 
 had made an impression on me very different from the 
 reality, for I was deeply grieved at his statement, in 
 which there was not the least allusion to Christ. Mary 
 seemed to be substituted for Christ. 
 
 I felt that he had gone very far, but I also felt he 
 had not gone farther than my own impressions as to the 
 religion of Italy, so far as I had seen it. I therefore 
 took the opportunity of saying, what otherwise I would 
 have been unwilling to express. I introduced it by 
 some courteous and apologetic expressions, to prevent 
 his taking any offence ; and assured him I felt happy in 
 being able to speak my mind to one so capable of under- 
 standing and appreciating my feelings, and I prayed 
 him not to be offended at my freedom. I then stated 
 with all the seriousness the subject demanded, and all 
 the solemnity I could command, that from all I had 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 45 
 
 observed of the religion of Italy, whether as exhibited 
 in the churches, displayed in processions, or expressed 
 in private, whether as exhibited in the forms of prayer, 
 in the object of worship, in the books of devotion, or in 
 the conversation of the people, that it appeared to me 
 to be characterised by one great feature, which forced 
 itself unceasingly on my mind. It seemed to me that 
 all tended to the honor of Mary, rather than to the 
 honor of Christ ; and that this seemed to me to be 
 carried to such an extreme, that I felt in my calm and 
 sober judgment, that the religion of Italy ought to be 
 called the religion of Mary, rather than the religion of 
 Christ I I again apologised for so strong an opinion, 
 but added that, feeling strongly on the point, I wished 
 to express myself with a frankness and sincerity, which 
 I hoped he would excuse. 
 
 I watched anxiously to see the impression of my 
 words ; I feared that, as they would have elicited a burst 
 of indignation, real or affected, among the Romanists of 
 England or of Ireland, so they might possibly cause 
 some offence even in Italy; but it was far otherwise. 
 He seemed quite unmoved, as if he received my words 
 as a matter of course — as expressing something very 
 natural and of no unfrequent occurrence. His reply 
 was made with perfect ease and entire frankness. 
 
 He stated, that my impression was very natural, that 
 such was really the appearance of things ; that coming 
 from Germany, where Christ on the cross was the ordi- 
 nary object of veneration, into Italy, where the Virgin 
 
46 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Mary was the universal object of reverence, it was no 
 more than natural such an impression should have been 
 created : that such an impression was very much the 
 reality of the case ; and that to his own knowledge, the 
 religion of Italy was latterly becoming less and less 
 the religion of Christ ; and that <( the devotion to the 
 most Holy Virgin," as he called it, was certainly on the 
 increase. 
 
 I was perfectly startled, not indeed at the statement 
 itself, for it was too palpably true to escape the obser- 
 vation of any one ; but that a man, a minister of Chris- 
 tianity, should describe such a state of things with the 
 manifest approval he exhibited. We were shocked. 
 
 He perceived this, and then proceeded to justify him- 
 self with an ingenuity and address that laid open the 
 system, and exhibited the worship of Mary in a new 
 light, at least in a light in which I had never seen it 
 before. He stated, that there was a great difference in 
 the bent or habit of mind, between English Protestants 
 on one hand, and Italian Romanists on the other ; that 
 Protestants habitually let their minds dwell on Christ's 
 teaching, on Christ working miracles, and especially on 
 Christ's suffering, bleeding, dying on the cross ; so that 
 in a Protestant mind, the great object was Christ in 
 the maturity of his manhood ; but that Romanists habi- 
 tually dwelt on the childhood of Christ ; not on the great 
 events that were wrought in maturity and manhood, 
 but on those interesting scenes which were connected 
 with his childhood. He then went on to say that this 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 47 
 
 habit of mind led to the great difference, that as Pro- 
 testants always dwelt on the suffering and dying Christ, 
 so Christ in a Protestant mind was always connected 
 with the cross ; and that as Romanists constantly medi- 
 tated rather on the childhood of Christ, so Christ in a 
 Romanist's mind was usually associated with his mother, 
 the Virgin Mary. He then continued to say that the 
 constant dwelling of the mind in contemplation on the 
 child, naturally led to more thought, more contempla- 
 tion, more affection, and finally more devotion for the 
 mother ; that when one thinks of all the little scenes of 
 His childhood, dwells on the little incidents of interest 
 between the child Jesus and the mother Mary, recollects 
 that she had him enshrined in her womb, that she used 
 to lead him by the hand, that she had listened to all his 
 innocent prattle, that she had observed the opening of 
 his mind ; and that during all those days of his happy 
 childhood she, and she alone of all the world, knew that 
 little child whom she bore in her womb and nursed at 
 her breasts and fondled in her arms, was her God — that 
 when a man thinks, and habitually thinks of all this, the 
 natural result is that his affections will be more drawn 
 out, and his feelings of devotion more elevated towards 
 Mary. And he concluded by stating that this habit of 
 mind was becoming more general, and that it was to it 
 that he would attribute the great increase, that late 
 years had witnessed in the devotion to the Virgin Mary. 
 My wife and myself were much struck with all this. 
 It was, I must freely acknowledge, perfectly new to me, 
 
48 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and greatly interested us. It was a new view of the 
 system, of the means by which the system is spread, and 
 quite a new phase of mind ; while the pleasing manner 
 and evident sincerity and enthusiasm of the man, gave 
 an additional charm to his words. "We did not conceal 
 the interest we felt in his statement, and he seemed 
 pleased at his success, and continued : — 
 
 He said, that all this devotion to Mary, however re- 
 pugnant to the feelings and judgments of Protestants, 
 was capable of being justified, or at least was capable of 
 being accounted for on a principle very well known, and 
 recognised among Protestants themselves. He said it 
 was to be ascribed to the feeling universal among Ro- 
 manists, that the Virgin Mary was more merciful, more 
 gentle and more ready to hear than Christ ; and he 
 added, that among Protestants it was often thought that 
 the Son, Jesus Christ, was more merciful, gentle and 
 ready to hear than God the Father, from their feeling 
 that in the manhood of Jesus Christ, there is that which 
 creates a sympathy in Him with them ; and that in the 
 same way Romanists feel that there is even more in the 
 Virgin Mary common with them, so as to create still 
 greater sympathy on her part. 
 
 On my wife remarking here upon the unsoundness of 
 the idea, which he attributed to Protestants, namely, 
 regarding the Son as more merciful and gentle and 
 ready to hear than the Father, adding that the Father 
 shewed his love in giving his Son, as much as the Son in 
 giving himself — On this he at once assented that the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 49 
 
 principle was unsound and wrong, and involved a very- 
 false view of the Godhead ; but that yet there were 
 many among Protestants who held it in their ignorance ; 
 and that many of them, influenced by it, do actually 
 pray to the Son more than to the Father. They feel 
 that the Son is Man as well as God, and that manhood 
 ensures a sympathy which makes him more accessible ; 
 and that the Romanists feel that Mary is altogether of 
 their own nature, and that this ensures a more perfect 
 sympathy, so as to make Mary more accessible than 
 Christ, and that this feeling leads them to pray with 
 more frequency, as well as with more confidence, to Mary 
 than to Christ. 
 
 It was impossible not to recognise the ingenuity of 
 this, and at the same time it was as impossible not to 
 acknowledge, that there was too much justice in what 
 he stated, as to the feeling of many Protestants. But 
 it was saddening indeed to the heart to witness the wiles 
 and subtleties, with which the fallen heart is ensnared 
 and the fallen intellect entangled ; and still more sad- 
 dening, even to fearfulness and trembling, to hear the 
 Saviour practically dethroned from his High Priesthood 
 and Mediatorship, and one of his creatures exalted to 
 his place, as the object of affection, devotion and prayer, 
 on the ground of so awful an error as that Mary is more 
 merciful, more gentle, and more ready to hear than 
 Christ. I knew the danger of speaking out, of speaking 
 my opinions openly, and yet I could not let such a 
 statement pass without some notice ; that even, if it had 
 
 E 
 
50 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 no effect on him, would at least clear my own conscience. 
 So I spoke of the love of Christ, a love exhibited in 
 leaving the heavens for us, — a love exhibited in all the 
 sweetness of his words, — a love exhibited in all the bene- 
 volence of his acts, — and above all a love exhibited in all 
 the mysterious agony in the garden, the infinite suffer- 
 ings of the judgment-hall, and the awful scenes of Cal- 
 vary, even a love still exhibited in the heavens, where 
 he yet pleads for the sinner, as if heaven were no 
 heaven to him, if his people be not there ! And I asked 
 how it was possible, that there could be imagined a 
 Being more merciful, more gentle, or more ready to 
 hear ? " God commended his love toward us, in that 
 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us ; " and 
 " greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay 
 down his life for his friend ; " and again, He pleads 
 himself with us, " Can a woman forget her sucking 
 child, that she should not have compassion on the Son 
 of her womb ? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not 
 forget thee." Here indeed is love expressed and proved, 
 and there is neither love expressed nor love proved by 
 the Virgin Mary ; while it seems the basest ingratitude, 
 the most heartless return to a Saviour of such infinite 
 love, " a love that passeth knowledge," to harbour for 
 one moment the thought, that it could be surpassed, 
 especially by one, who at the best is but a creature still. 
 I do not think, that this produced any serious im- 
 pression on my companion ; and certainly it had no effect 
 on his reasoning, farther than to say, that he thought it 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 51 
 
 a wrong principle for Protestants to regard Christ as 
 more merciful than the Father ; and so making that a 
 ground for praying more frequently to him ; but that 
 it was the very same principle, only applied to the 
 Virgin Mary, that led the Church of Rome to regard 
 her as more merciful than Christ, and therefore to pray 
 more frequently to her. 
 
 I observed here, that this took away the ground on 
 which they prayed to Mary so much more frequently 
 than to Christ ; and that to say the least of the system, 
 the praying to her more frequently than to him, bore 
 the complexion of Idolatry — as lowering him and ex- 
 alting her, and giving the love, the devotion, the prayers 
 to Mary, which ought to be rendered to God alone. 
 
 He rejoined by saying, that there was a distinction 
 always observed in the minds of the people, between 
 the worship rendered to Christ, and the worship ren- 
 dered to Mary. 
 
 I replied, that although the more intelligent and en- 
 lightened of the Roman Church, might understand and 
 be able to maintain that distinction, while in the act of 
 worship, yet it was evident that the mass of the popula- 
 tion, and of the children, were both incapable of under- 
 standing it or of observing it. I added that the distinc- 
 tion of their theologians between Latria, Dulia, and 
 Hyperdulia, had never been clearly defined ; and that I 
 had never met a member of the Church of Rome, 
 whether Ecclesiastical or Lay, who could clearly state 
 the difference between them. 
 
 e 2 
 
52 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 In answer to this he said, that however difficult it was 
 to explain — and he acknowledged it was very difficult — 
 yet it was universally known and understood, — that the 
 youngest children and the most ignorant adults, all re- 
 cognised the distinction, and could never fall into any 
 mistake respecting it ; but that feeling that Christ was 
 the Almighty God infinitely above them, and that Mary 
 was a creature like themselves, and of the same human 
 feelings with themselves, they conceived she would have 
 more sympathies with them, and therefore they prayed 
 more frequently to her. 
 
 To this I rejoined, by again expressing my conviction, 
 that it was impossible that the mass of the poor and 
 ignorant people, could understand the distinctions which 
 their most learned Theologians were unable to explain — 
 that although they were told that latria belonged to 
 God, hyperdulia to the Virgin, and dulia to the Saints, 
 — that although they were told of these three kinds of 
 worship, yet they could not distinguish between them ; 
 and most certainly could not act upon them — that fre- 
 quently they prayed in the same form, for the same 
 objects, and in the very same words, to God, and to 
 Mary, and to the Saints, without making the least dif- 
 ference between them. 
 
 I then referred to the well-known prayer, to the say- 
 ing of which, in the year 1817, an Indulgence of three 
 hundred days was attached. It was in the words. 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, Mary, I give you my heart and soul ; 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, Mary, assist me in my last agony ; 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 53 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, Mary, I breathe my soul to you in 
 peace." 
 
 Here, I said, was a prayer addressed to God, to the 
 Virgin, and to a Saint, — addressed to one and all alike, 
 addressing them for the very same objects, and making 
 no distinction whatever between them. Here was a 
 case, in which the three degrees of worship were all 
 demanded. There was God, for whom latria was re- 
 quired ; hyperdulia for the Virgin ; and dulia for Joseph. 
 And I added, that as the people used the same words 
 to each — employed the same form of petition to each 
 — asked for the same things from each — offered and 
 expressed the same devotion to each ; it could hardly 
 be asserted, that they were not worshipping them all 
 alike. 
 
 He evidently felt this a great difficulty. He acknow- 
 ledged that he knew the prayer, and that it was of fre- 
 quent use among the people, and that at first appearance 
 it looked objectionable ; but he insisted that the people 
 knew the distinction so well, that no man, or woman, or 
 child, could possibly fall into the error of praying to 
 God, and Mary, and Joseph alike. It might appear 
 to me, that their words and form and manner of wor- 
 ship being the same, the worship itself was the same ; 
 but that nothing was more certain, than that they ob- 
 served a distinction in their own minds, and did not 
 really pray to them, or worship them alike, even in that 
 prayer, which was addressed to Jesus, Joseph, and 
 Mary simultaneously. 
 
54 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I felt that reasoning farther on this precise point, was 
 neither profitable nor judicious ; and therefore only re- 
 marked, that I was well able to judge of the form of 
 prayer itself; and knew that it was addressed to all 
 alike, but that as to distinctions in the minds of the 
 people, neither he nor I could be competent judges. 
 Neither of us could read the heart, and therefore neither 
 of us ought to say anything, as to what may or may not 
 be in the secret mind of others. Our province is to 
 judge of the outward action, and that outward action 
 was one of prayer and devotion to all the three alike. 
 
 He made no objection to this, but directed our con- 
 versation into another channel. It was some time before 
 I could bring him back without any apparent effort to 
 the same point. He then resumed it, by alluding to 
 something that had passed between us ; and then re- 
 marked, as he had done on that occasion, that the devo- 
 tion to the Virgin Mary was very popular, that latterly 
 it was become increasingly so ; and that he knew per- 
 sonally of many facts, that proved it to be a growing 
 devotion among all classes. 
 
 My wife remarked, that she had been in conversation 
 with a religious Italian lady, who was lamenting the 
 vice and wickedness that abounded in Rome ; and who 
 concluded by saying, that her only consolation and hope 
 for Rome was, that the devotion to the Most Holy 
 Mary, santissima Maria, was so much on the increase ! 
 
 He stated that such was the fact, and proceeded to 
 relate some little incidents to illustrate it. He men- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 55 
 
 tioned the frequency with which he hears the poor and 
 simple people praying to the Virgin, — singing hymns 
 to her pictures at the corners of the streets early in the 
 morning, — appealing to her for protection in moments 
 of danger ; and he detailed a scene which he had him- 
 self witnessed. It was the case of a very little child, 
 that conceived itself in great danger, and immediately 
 cried aloud to the Virgin, * O Mamma, Mamma Mia, 
 Mamma Mia, O Mamma ! ' He supposed the little child 
 so well taught to regard the Virgin Mary as her hea- 
 venly Mother, and so truly pious and devoted, as to 
 have addressed these words to her ; and he was touched 
 to tears — the tear glistened in his eye as he told the 
 incident, being evidently touched at the idea of so much 
 piety in so young a child. 
 
 I remarked at the moment, that to me it seemed as 
 if the child was only crying for its own mother, at least 
 it was like the cry of some child in England, who had 
 never heard of the Virgin Mary. 
 
 He said that in the case he mentioned, there was no 
 doubt that it was the cry of a child appealing to its 
 Heavenly Mother. He added that there was something 
 among the Italians, — something in the Italian mind, and 
 Italian feeling, that led them particularly to devotion to 
 the Virgin — that while in Germany the prayers of the 
 Roman Catholics are directed to the crucifix, to the 
 figure of our Lord upon the cross, it is quite otherwise 
 in Italy, where all the devotion of the people, and all 
 their prayers, are addressed to the pictures and images 
 
56 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 of Mary ; that, however it was to be accounted for, the 
 fact was so, and that it was increasing and likely to in- 
 crease yet more. 
 
 I remarked that his words seemed to imply, that there 
 was a process of change gradually going on in the 
 Church of Rome, in reference to the Virgin ; and that 
 thus the religion of Rome was becoming more and more 
 the religion of Mary. I then added, that I had seen 
 some remarkable things in a work, by St. Alphonso 
 De Liguori. It was entitled " The Glories of Mary," and 
 among other things described the vision of St. Bernard, 
 in which he beheld two ladders extending from earth to 
 heaven, — two ways by which the sinner could have 
 access to heaven. At the top of one ladder appeared 
 Jesus Christ. At the top of the other ladder appeared 
 the Virgin Mary ,• and that while those, who endeavoured 
 to enter into heaven by the way of Christ's ladder, fell 
 constantly back and utterly failed, those on the other 
 hand who tried to enter by the ladder of Mary, all suc- 
 ceeded, because she put forth her hands to assist and 
 encourage them. I mentioned also, that I had seen 
 this as an altar-piece in a Church at Milan, where the 
 two ladders were represented, reaching from earth to 
 heaven ; Jesus Christ at the head of one, and Mary at 
 the head of the other ; and while none were succeeding 
 by the ladder of Christ, all were succeeding by the ladder 
 of the Virgin ! 1 added that this was degrading Christ, 
 in order to exalt the Virgin, and that it was represent- 
 ing her as a more merciful and effectual Saviour, than 
 
* THE JESUITS AT ROME. 57 
 
 the Saviour Himself! I felt that T could apply no 
 other language to this, than that I could not imagine a 
 more hideous blasphemy, than the language of Liguori, 
 or a more frightful sacrilege than such a picture beside 
 the altar of a Church. 
 
 He said mildly, that he could not approve of such 
 things, that such things undoubtedly were often said 
 and often done ; but that for himself he could not do 
 otherwise than condemn them ; that though he could not 
 go so far as to apply to them such strong language as 
 blasphemy and sacrilege, yet he could not but most 
 strongly disapprove of them ; but still he believed 
 they were capable, when rightly interpreted, of being 
 understood in an orthodox and unobjectionable sense. 
 
 I then alluded to other pictures of the Virgin Mary, 
 and I reprobated the practice of representing Mary, as 
 the chief or principal figure in the picture ; and Jesus 
 Christ being introduced as a subordinate figure — as a 
 figure that was merely accessory to tier's, a sort of ap- 
 pendage to her, as if he was introduced merely to shew, 
 that the figure of a female was intended as the figure of 
 Mary — as if, there being innumerable female figures in 
 such pictures, figures of various saints, it was necessary 
 to introduce the child Jesus to shew that this female 
 figure was intended for Mary. The figure of St. Cathe- 
 rine is recognised from all others, by the introduction of 
 the wheel. The figure of St. Margaret is similarly dis- 
 tinguished, by the introduction of a tower. In precisely 
 the same spirit the figure of Mary is recognised, by the 
 
58 MORNINGS AMONG * 
 
 introduction of the infant Jesus. But as with St. Cathe- 
 rine and St. Margaret the wheel and the tower are 
 mere accessories, by which they may be recognised, so 
 in the pictures of Mary, the child Jesus is nothing else 
 than a mere accessory to identify her ! I expressed my- 
 self strongly against this practice, as an awful dishonour 
 to Christ. It was making God the creator a mere 
 secondary to a creature. 
 
 He again expressed himself, as disapproving of such 
 pictures, saying that although others approved of and 
 liked them, yet he did not think them altogether 
 justifiable. 
 
 I then called his attention to a large number of pic- 
 tures, to be seen in almost every Church. They are 
 designed to represent the Virgin Mary in heaven, en- 
 throned above the clouds and encircled by angels and 
 cherubs, and even there she is represented with the 
 infant Jesus in her arms ! It could not possibly be that 
 either the Artists who paint, or the Priests who suspend 
 those pictures over the altar, suppose that Jesus Christ 
 is now an infant still, in the arms of Mary in heaven — 
 that He is still an infant in heaven ; and therefore it is 
 apparent that He is introduced, thus absurdly and im- 
 properly, as a mere accessory to distinguish the figure 
 of Mary from the figure of any other Saint! I added 
 that there were few things in the Church of Rome that 
 so offended us, as dishonouring to Christ, as this system 
 of making Mary the principal person, and Christ only 
 the secondary person in their pictures. It seemed an 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 59 
 
 index of the state of Italian religion, in which Mary 
 seemed first, and Christ second in prominence, as if it 
 was the religion of Mary rather than the religion of 
 Christ. I added yet farther, that it was singular that 
 in the Church of Gesu e Maria in the Corso ; where the 
 sermons are preached in English for the conversion of 
 the English, there are no less than three large altar- 
 pieces, — pictures larger than life, representing the Virgin 
 Mary with the infant Jesus in heaven ! 
 
 He said, that he quite agreed with me that such 
 things ought not to be — that the representing Mary as 
 enthroned in heaven, and our Lord as a child in her 
 arms, was ignorant, absurd and untrue — contrary to 
 right teaching; but that unhappily there was too much 
 of it. He went on to say, that the Church had never 
 done it — never sanctioned it ; and although it certainly 
 was done, yet as certainly it was without the sanction 
 or approval of the Church. 
 
 I said that the Church had tacitly sanctioned it. It 
 had ever been held that where any doctrine or practice 
 had been propagated, and the Church had not interfered 
 with it or condemned it, that she was then to be re- 
 garded as permitting it. I said that in this way, the 
 Church tacitly sanctioned the practice, for as these 
 things were not done in a corner, but were done in a 
 large portion of the Churches, so they must be known 
 to the authorities and permitted by them. I alluded 
 to a picture of the Virgin, in the chapel under St Peter's, 
 with an inscription that it had miraculously shed blood 
 
60 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 when struck with a stone ; and another picture of the 
 Virgin as Arezzo, which had miraculously shed tears of 
 grief, at hearing the profane language of some drunkards; 
 and another picture of her that was shewn at Rome, 
 which miraculously wept before the whole congregation, 
 at the invasion of the French. And more strange than 
 all, a picture of the Virgin and child at Lucca, of which 
 it was affirmed, that when some one flung a stone at the 
 face of the child, she most wonderfully transferred the 
 child to the other arm, and thus saved it from injury — 
 a wonder indeed for a mere picture to perform ! I argued 
 that all these, and a thousand similar things were known 
 to the authorities, and therefore the Church by permit- 
 ting them, did tacitly sanction them, and must be held 
 responsible. 
 
 He replied, by stating that, many of these things were 
 undoubtedly untrue, but that many of them were un- 
 doubtedly true — that in either case the Church had 
 never given her authority to any of them, — that indi- 
 vidual Priests, and Bishops, and even Popes believed 
 and sanctioned them, but the Church had never done 
 so. He added, that although they were exhibited in 
 Churches, approved by the Priests of those Churches, 
 and sanctioned by inscriptions on the walls of the 
 Churches, yet they were not authorised by the Church. 
 The people might believe or might not believe them, 
 but the Church was not responsible. She left her peo- 
 ple at liberty, and the responsibility lay with the Priests 
 and people themselves, and not with the Church. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 61 
 
 I said in return, that I was to infer that a belief in 
 such miraculous pictures of the Virgin Mary, was not 
 confined to the ignorant of the populace, but was re- 
 ceived among the learned and enlightened of the Priest- 
 hood. His words seemed to imply as much. 
 
 He at once replied, that he could not answer for 
 others, but that for himself he did not believe the greater 
 portion of such narratives — that the Roman Breviary 
 was full of such tales of wonders and miracles, as of 
 men, whose heads were cut off and yet who afterwards 
 took up their own heads, and carried them away in their 
 hands ! He added, laughing, that he could not believe 
 such things, of which some were unreasonable and 
 foolish, and even known and proved to be false and im- 
 possible. 
 
 In the Church of S. Stefano Rotundo, among other 
 representations of martyrdom, S. Dionysius is repre- 
 sented as walking in full episcopal robes at the head of 
 a procession, holding his head streaming with blood in 
 his hands ! It is said that, after being decapitated, he 
 quietly took up his own head in his hands, and walked 
 away with it to the no small astonishment of all ! 
 
 This was as much as I could expect. I pressed him 
 no more on the subject, and soon after our interview 
 ended. 
 
62 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER III. 
 
 A VISIT FROM A CONVERT TO ROMANISM — .ARGUMENT DRAWN FROM HIS 
 EXPERIENCE OF HAPPINESS— MOTIVE TO REST ENTIRELY ON THE IN- 
 FALLIBILITY OF THE CHURCH — THE INFALLIBLE TRIBUNAL AMONG PRO- 
 TESTANTS CONTRASTED WITH THAT AMONG ROMANISTS — ARGUMENTS 
 FOR INFALLIBILITY — THE SCRIPTURES— TRADITION — THE FATHERS. 
 
 I expected the promised visit of a reverend gentleman, 
 who had originally been a Protestant, and had entered 
 the Church of Rome. 
 
 Our conversation commenced, after his arrival, by my 
 observing to him, that I understood he had once been a 
 Protestant, and that he had now become a Roman Catho- 
 lic. I expressed myself as much gratified in making his 
 acquaintance, and being able thus to state my opinions, 
 feelings, and difficulties, to one who could understand 
 and appreciate them. I had felt that much and many 
 of the difficulties, that pressed upon the mind of an 
 English Protestant, were altogether unintelligible to a 
 mind, so peculiarly constituted and habituated as that of 
 an Italian Romanist, — that it might therefore be feared 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 63 
 
 that my feelings could scarcely be adequately appreci- 
 ated, by our mutual friend the Padre M — , so as to enlist 
 his sympathies : but that now that I had to converse 
 with one, who had himself been a Protestant, I felt as- 
 sured that he would understand and sympathise with me. 
 He replied by stating, that he had always until his 
 arrival at Rome been a Protestant, — that, after a long 
 and painful struggle, he was convinced of the course 
 which it became him to pursue, — that he therefore came 
 to Rome, and after some communication with the Jesuits 
 there, formally renounced his former opinions, and was 
 received as a member of the Church of Rome. He 
 entered into some details of his former history, in fact 
 the story of his life, and concluded by saying that he 
 had never known peace or happiness, until he had 
 taken the final step ; and then, and from that moment, 
 he had experienced a tranquillity of mind and a satis- 
 faction of feeling, a joy and delight which he had never 
 known before. Instead of being disturbed in mind he 
 felt calm, — instead of being restless he had peace, — in- 
 stead of unhappiness he had full satisfaction, — instead 
 of uncertainty, he had the most perfect certainty ; and 
 thus from the moment of his seeking rest, in the bosom 
 of His Holy Mother the Church of Rome, like the 
 wandering child in the bosom of its loving Mother, he 
 experienced in her embrace and communion the most 
 perfect happiness. He then added, that he believed 
 this happiness was experienced by all, who like him 
 embraced the Church of Rome, — that he knew it to be 
 
64 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the experience of others as well as his own, — that lie 
 could not regard it otherwise, than as the special gift 
 and blessing of God, — the reward of Heaven to those 
 who entered his true Church, and that if I took the 
 same step, I should assuredly be partaker of the same 
 reward. 
 
 I answered all this by stating that I could well un- 
 derstand it, as I had seen very much of the same nature 
 in the case of persons, who had acted in a manner the 
 very opposite to that which he had adopted. I had 
 known many persons, who had been brought up from 
 infancy, in all the principles and practices of the Church 
 of Rome, — who, by the reading of the Holy Scriptures, 
 or by hearing the preaching of the Gospel, had been led 
 to entertain doubts as to the verity of their former 
 faith, and to receive and adopt the simple and scriptural 
 principles of Protestantism ; and so to go on to the final 
 step of embracing the communion of Protestants ; and 
 such persons had often told me of the peace of mind 
 and happiness of heart, — the gush of joy and delight 
 that they experienced in forsaking by that act, what 
 they regarded as the unscriptural and unstable errors of 
 one Church, for the scriptural and stable truth of the 
 other; speaking with rapturous extacy of peace and joy 
 which they had never known before, and of the sweet- 
 ness of which they had previously had no conception. 
 I added, that I supposed this feeling among those who 
 embraced the Roman faith, and among those who em- 
 braced the Protestant faith — this feeling common to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. C>5 
 
 both alike, may arise from the casting aside the doubts 
 and difficulties, that had previously occupied and ab- 
 sorbed the mind ; but that I could not regard it as a 
 reward or recompense for the final step, — that I could 
 not think that God would give this reward to both 
 sides, to the Romanist for embracing Protestantism, 
 and to the Protestant for embracing Romanism. 
 
 He said in return, that he had sometimes heard of 
 such things, and that he was not quite sure whether he 
 ought to doubt or acknowledge them. But that for 
 himself and his own experience, he could entertain no 
 doubt whatever. For years the conflict had raged within 
 him ; principle struggled with principle, one series of 
 apparent truths held conflict with another series of 
 truths equally apparent, till he was tost to and fro, and 
 reeled like a ship upon the waves, now inclining to Pro- 
 testantism, and then leaning to Romanism, till he felt 
 all faith giving way, and to save himself from infidelity 
 he resolved to embrace the Church of Rome ; — that if 
 he had not clone so he must certainly have ended in 
 infidelity, — that he had been rushing headlong into 
 that awful abyss, till he was saved by entering the 
 Church of Rome, and from that moment all was peace 
 and joy, every doubt vanished and every difficulty fled 
 away, and all was now tranquillity and happiness. He 
 then assured me that if I would only take the same 
 course,— if I would resolve to fling away my doubts and 
 difficulties, — if instead of making objections and answer- 
 ing arguments, and requiring reasons and proofs, — if 
 
 F 
 
66 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 instead of all this I would but fling them to the winds, 
 and boldly and unhesitatingly enter the Church of 
 R.ome, I should escape all the harassing anxieties of 
 doubt, and all the awfulness of infidelity, and receive 
 my reward in the peacefulness and tranquillity of soul, 
 which he had himself experienced, and which it was 
 absolutely impossible I could ever experience otherwise ; 
 for that I must else continue in doubt and difficulty, and 
 that my doubts must increase, and my difficulty be- 
 come still more difficult, and my whole mind become so 
 mystified and perplexed and entangled, that I must 
 end in infidelity. There was no escape but in the 
 Church of Rome. 
 
 I could not but smile, while I thanked him for his 
 anxiety about my doubts and difficulties ; and I assured 
 him, that I had never any doubt or difficulty, as to the 
 truth of all required of me as a member of the Church 
 of England ; that the only doubts and difficulties of 
 which I was conscious, had reference not to the Church 
 of England, but to the Church of Rome ; — that, residing 
 as I then was in the city of Rome, the seat of that 
 Church, I was forced to consider whether I could hold 
 communion with her, — that having been invited to join 
 myself to her, I felt doubts and difficulties of so cogent 
 a nature, in my judgment, to such a step, that I had not 
 done so ; and that I never could do so, unless my ob- 
 jections to the Church of Rome were fully removed. I 
 added that my previous communications with Padre 
 M , arose from his proposal that I should freely 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. G7 
 
 state my objections, and thus give him an opportunity 
 of answering and removing them. 
 
 He replied by saying, that he had been under a mis- 
 take, but that it need not affect our communications, 
 as he could quite understand, and enter into my feelings 
 on the point, the more so as he had himself had long 
 and sad experience of the same state of mind, — that he 
 had indeed been bitterly tried and sadly perplexed by 
 difficulties, by prejudices and by distastes, — that he 
 was conscious of a feeling amounting to repugnance and 
 loathing of some things, and seemingly an impossibility 
 of believing others, — that in all these he had probably 
 felt as many and as great difficulties, as those which now 
 stood in my way, and opposed my union with the Church 
 of Rome ; and that if he had listened to them and con- 
 tinued to argue them out, as I seemed disposed to do, 
 he should probably have continued a Protestant to the 
 present day, or rather, as he immediately corrected 
 himself, he should probably have become an Infidel, for 
 he had brought himself to that pass, that he had rea- 
 soned himself into the belief, that the Church or reli- 
 gion of Rome seemed to him more natural, more reason- 
 able, more consistent and better put together, than the 
 Church or religion of Christ so far as it could be ga- 
 thered from the Scriptures ; and thus he must become 
 either a Catholic or an Infidel, embracing the Church 
 of Rome or none at all. He continued to say, that my 
 only as well as my most comfortable course, was to fling 
 aside all my mental difficulties, no longer to debate or 
 
 f 2 
 
68 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 argue the objections ; but remembering they had all 
 been already decided by the Infallible authority of the 
 Church, dismiss them for ever from my mind ; that he 
 had himself felt the advantage and comfort of this, for 
 that a doubt on any point, as for example, on Tran- 
 substantiation, never crossed his mind. Whatever dif- 
 ficulties might exist, they never troubled him now, for 
 he laid them all on the tribunal, which had already in- 
 fallibly decided them. 
 
 I said in reply to all this, that I could well under- 
 stand such a course, as an easy and effectual way of 
 disposing of some difficulties ; and that I had long been 
 in the habit of acting on it. I fully felt the value and 
 indeed the necessity for a tribunal, an infallible tribunal 
 to determine the religious difficulties of my mind, and 
 I knew and felt they could not be satisfactorily and 
 safely determined, by mere human authority, my mind 
 being so constituted, as to require the decision of Divine 
 authority to satisfy it; and that I therefore felt the 
 necessity of referring all to an infallible authority. 
 
 My friend seemed to accept this as all he required, 
 and was about to proceed with his argument, when I 
 continued to say, that I had found and felt that the 
 Holy Scriptures were the Word of God, — that they 
 were inspired by Him, and therefore were infallible ; 
 that being of Divine and not mere human authority, 
 they were an infallible tribunal to whose decisions our 
 difficulties should be referred, — that by God's grace and 
 mercy, my mind was completely subdued and submissive 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 69 
 
 to them ; so subdued and submissive, that no matter how 
 opposed to previous convictions any statement might 
 be, yet if only it was clearly maintained or justified by 
 the Holy Scriptures, I at once bowed to it as of Divine 
 and infallible authority. I added that the difference be- 
 tween him and me was, that he bowed to a supposed 
 authority, the inspiration and divinity of which I denied ; 
 while I bowed to an authority, whose inspiration and 
 divinity was admitted by all. He yielded to the de- 
 cisions of the Papal Bulls, while I bowed to the decisions 
 of the Holy Scriptures. 
 
 His answer to this was precisely what I had antici- 
 pated. He acknowledged that in appealing to the 
 Holy Scriptures, the Protestants appealed to that which 
 must be recognised as an infallible tribunal ; but that 
 he objected to the practical inutility of the Holy Scrip- 
 tures to such a purpose, as unfitted and inadequate to 
 the wants of the Church. He argued that this unfitness 
 and inadequacy, arose from their liability to a variety 
 of interpretations on the part of a variety of persons, — 
 that if ten men could be produced united on one 
 interpretation he could produce ten more insisting 
 upon some opposite or different one ; and neither had 
 right or authority to say the other was wrong ; and 
 thence he argued that this liability to a diversity of in- 
 terpretation, was a fatal objection to the fitness or 
 adequacy of the Holy Scriptures, for the determination 
 of controversies or the solution of difficulties. 
 
 I rejoined to this, that although the argument has 
 
70 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 often before been urged in many works of controversy, 
 yet it had never seemed to me to have weight in the 
 matter for which it was adduced, because the very 
 same objection in all its force was as applicable to the 
 system of the Church of Rome. If appeal be made to 
 the canon law, — if reference be made to the writings of 
 the primitive Fathers, — if the appeal be made to the 
 decrees of Councils, — if the reference be made to the 
 Bulls of Popes, — if, in short, it be made to any docu- 
 ments, supposed to contain the infallible mind of the 
 Church, there will be found as great a diversity of in- 
 terpretation, as if the reference be made to the Holy 
 Scriptures. They all have been and still are as liable 
 to diversity of interpretation as the Holy Scriptures ; 
 so that if he could produce ten men for one interpreta- 
 tion, I could produce ten more for a different interpre- 
 tation ; and for every ten Roman Catholic authors, 
 vvhom he might adduce as teaching infallibility, as resi- 
 ding in the Popes, and not in the Councils, I could 
 adduce ten others teaching that infallibility resides in 
 the Councils and not in the Popes. And I argued, 
 that if a liability to a diversity of interpretation, or 
 variety of opinion, were an adequate objection to the 
 Holy Scriptures, as the final tribunal of appeal in ques- 
 tions of religion, then a similar liability must be an 
 adequate objection against the writings of Fathers, the 
 Canons of Rome, the decrees of Councils, or the Bulls 
 of Popes. They all were liable to diversity of interpre- 
 tation, and variety of opinion. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 71 
 
 He acknowledged frankly and at once, that he thought 
 my answer was sufficient, so far as those writings, 
 Canons, Decrees and Bulls, that have been already 
 passed or written, are concerned. They are now written 
 documents, and as such they necessarily become liable 
 to various interpretations in the hands of able and 
 subtle men. They are all therefore in the same cata- 
 gory, and liable to the same objection as the Holy 
 Scriptures. He would fully admit all this. But he 
 thought that the great advantage of the Church of Rome 
 consisted in having one, who, as the Head of the 
 Church, was a living and speaking Judge, who could at 
 any moment determine infallibly the question under 
 debate ; and that it was better to refer such question 
 to the infallible decision of the Pope, as Head of the 
 Church, than to the Holy Scriptures, which every dis- 
 putant would interpret as suited his purpose. He then 
 went on to speak of the comfort of being able to fling 
 away the mental difficulties, and intellectual doubtings, 
 with which some minds were oppressed, stating how he 
 had felt it in his own experience ; and that I could 
 never know the end of such difficulties and doubtings, 
 until like him, I resolved to cast them all aside and lay 
 the responsibility of all the right or wrong, all the truth 
 or error connected with them, on the infallibility of this 
 infallible authority. And he concluded by saying, in 
 very complimentary terms, that as my mind was an en- 
 quiring one, and also a logical one, it was the more 
 necessary for me to take this course, as it was evident, 
 
72 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 from the very character of my mind, that I must end in 
 Infidelity if I did not embrace Catholicity. 
 
 I thanked him with all courtesy, for the complimen- 
 tary terms in which he was pleased to describe the 
 character of my mind. ; and I earnestly begged that he 
 would accept the enquiring and logical nature of my 
 mind, in apology for pressing so much for proofs and 
 evidences before I received any important statement* 
 The character of my mind required proofs, and must 
 be my excuse to him for asking what proof, what evi- 
 dence, what argument he could adduce, on which he 
 would ask me to believe in the existence of any Infallible 
 Tribunal on earth, other and besides the Holy Scriptures. 
 I observed that he had repeatedly asserted the existence 
 of such Infallible Tribunal, — that he had offered it to 
 me as a panacea or remedy for all my difficulties, — that 
 he pressed it as a resolver of all my objections to the 
 Church of Rome, — that he avowed it as the basis of all 
 his faith, as touching eternity ; and that he presented 
 the whole system of his religion, his faith and hope, and 
 the important step of embracing the Church of Rome, 
 as founded upon one point, namely, that there was a 
 living and speaking Infallible Tribunal on earth, other 
 and beside the Holy Scriptures. I therefore asked with 
 all earnestness and solemnity — As you say my mind is 
 a logical one, so you will believe that my mind requires 
 a clear, cogent, unanswerable proof of the actual exis- 
 tence of such a tribunal ; and I therefore ask — On what 
 evidence, proof or argument, do you present it to me ? 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 73 
 
 You say that all, — Catholicity, Protestantism, Infidelity, 
 depend on the reception or rejection of it. Heaven 
 and Hell depend on it. It requires a strong foundation, 
 for it has much to carry. 
 
 He assented to this, and said he would at once enter 
 on the question. He then proceeded to say that one 
 argument for the existence of this tribunal was, — ne- 
 cessity. He referred to the variety of opinions that 
 agitate and distract the Church, — to the conflicting ele- 
 ments which characterise the different sects, to the 
 difficulties that beset the pathway of every enquirer, — 
 to the doubts and conflicts, that perpetually oppress the 
 minds of thinking men, to the difficulties apparently 
 perhaps really, insurmountable, that surround some 
 minds, — he referred to these as creating a necessity for 
 some tribunal. He said the minds of men were in doubt, 
 and an infallible tribunal is necessary to resolve those 
 doubts, — that there are diversities of opinions as to 
 faith and practice, agitating various sections of the 
 Church, and an infallible tribunal is necessary to decide 
 between them/ — that there were sects and schisms in- 
 numerable, all maintaining opposite doctrines, and an 
 infallible tribunal is necessary to determine and settle 
 all. He thus based his argument on the supposed 
 necessity. 
 
 To this I replied by saying, that in the Holy Scrip- 
 tures we possessed that which all Christian Churches 
 regarded as the word of God, and therefore infallible ; 
 and that the necessity of which he spoke, was thus fully 
 
74 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 provided for. We have in them an infallible tribunal, 
 and we see no necessity for any other, and especially 
 such an one as decrees of Councils, or Bulls of Popes, 
 which are often directly contradictory and opposed to 
 one another, and all of which are liable to diversity 
 of interpretation as much as the Holy Scripture, so that 
 we gain nothing by leaving the Scriptures and flying to 
 them. I then added, that he had assumed a necessity 
 for some infallible tribunal, and I appealed to him, ask- 
 ing whether as a Logician, he was satisfied with his own 
 argument, — whether it was good logic or sound reason- 
 ing, to say that there are diversities of opinion, and 
 therefore there is a necessity for an infallible tribunal, 
 and therefore there is such a tribunal ; — whether such a 
 syllogism could be used in the College of Nobles, of 
 which he was a tutor ; — where was the vis consequently 
 by which he could conclude the existence of a thing 
 from the imaginary necessity or convenience of the 
 thing. I asked whether, as a logician, he really thought 
 that so important a point as the existence of an infallible 
 tribunal, was sufficiently demonstrated by a mere opinion 
 of the great convenience or necessity for it, in the pre- 
 sent state of the Church ; and I asked further whether, 
 as a Christian, he would think me justified in placing 
 all my faith, on that which seemed so inadequately 
 proved. 
 
 He paused some time before he replied. It appeared 
 to me, as I observed him, that he was struggling with 
 himself, as if he felt that the answer he was about to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 75 
 
 give, was other than he wished. His manner was dif- 
 ferent from the confidence and self-possession he had 
 previously shewn. After some moments, he smiled 
 good-hum ourediy at his own argument, as it seemed to 
 me ; and he frankly stated that it did not satisfy himself, 
 that he could not defend the logic of it, and that of 
 course the argument must go for nothing, adding freely 
 and with a good-humoured smile, that he thought I 
 should not be justified in changing my religious views 
 upon such grounds. 
 
 I could not after so frank an admission on his part, 
 press further on the point ; but I asked him whether 
 he could advance any further and more satisfactory 
 argument, reminding him that he had asked me to cast 
 aside all my reasonings, my doubtings, my difficulties, 
 and my objections, and to lay the solution and respon- 
 sibility of all on the infallible tribunal ; and that the 
 argument ought therefore to be logical, clear, cogent, 
 and unanswerable. 
 
 He answered by saying, that he could prove its ex- 
 istence, from the usefulness and convenience of such a 
 tribunal, so useful and convenient, that we must suppose 
 a good and beneficent God must have granted it to the 
 Church. He then repeated his former statement, touch- 
 ing similarly on the doubts, the divisions, the conflicts, 
 the sects of the Church ; and he argued that an infalli- 
 ble tribunal would be so desirable, so advantageous, so 
 consistent with the goodness and benificence of God, in 
 order to remedy these evils in the Church, that God 
 
76 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 may well be supposed to have established a tribunal so 
 useful and convenient. 
 
 I asked him quietly — Do you yourself think, that 
 your proving it to be convenient or useful or desirable 
 for the Church, is really proving that it does exist in 
 the Church ? Do you yourself think, that in logic you 
 are justified in inferring the existence of anything, from 
 the supposed usefulness of the thing ? 
 
 He at once and with the utmost candor admitted, that 
 his argument had so far failed, that I should not be 
 justified in believing the existence of an infallible tri- 
 bunal, on the grounds he had stated. He seemed per- 
 plexed, as if unprepared to enter further on the argu- 
 ment, or as if he had never before considered the point 
 with sufficient care. I was much surprised at his appa- 
 rent confusion, and could not well understand his being 
 so unprepared on so important a question. 
 
 I added, however, that the supposed convenience and 
 usefulness of an infallible tribunal, was the argument 
 most generally urged in its behalf, — the argument 
 usually unfolded in writing, and urged in conversation, 
 at least so far as my personal experience extended ; so 
 that it seemed to me to be the main basis or foundation 
 of this important matter ; and that I really was unable 
 to understand, how thinking and earnest men could 
 hazard all their faith and hope, and peril all the destinies 
 of eternity, on a principle founded, as it seemed to my 
 poor judgment, on so frail and inadequate a basis. I 
 felt myself that I could not do so. It would, I acknow- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 77 
 
 ledged, undoubtedly be very convenient and useful for 
 us, that Hell with all his horrors should be annihilated ; 
 but we are not justified in believing therefore that Hell 
 is annihilated. It would also without any question, be 
 useful and convenient for us beyond expression, that sin 
 should be abolished and driven from the world, but we 
 are not therefore to infer that sin is so abolished. The 
 annihilation of Hell, and the abolition of our liability to 
 sin, would be an act that in our e}^es might seem very 
 consistent with the goodness and compassion and bene- 
 ficence of God ; but we are not thence to infer, that He 
 has annihilated the one, or abolished the other. And 
 in the same way, I continued, our proving the conve- 
 nience or usefulness of an infallible tribunal, other and 
 besides the Holy Scriptures, or its suitableness to the 
 goodness of God, cannot be regarded as any adequate 
 argument to prove that God has actually established it. 
 The question is, not what God could or might have done, 
 but what he has done. 
 
 The conversation now assumed a most unexpected 
 phase. He frankly and at once, and with no little 
 emotion, acknowledged that his arguments had failed, — 
 that my answer was sufficient to set it aside, — that his 
 argument was illogical, and that at the best all he had 
 urged could not prove the matter before us, as so im- 
 portant a point required to be proved. All this was 
 confessed so frankly, so unhesitatingly, and with so 
 much evident earnestness as it seemed to me, that I 
 was taken quite by surprise. I began to imagine, that 
 
78 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 perhaps his own belief in an infallible tribunal was 
 shaking, and that as he so fully surrendered the foun- 
 dations on which he had built it, he might be disposed 
 to forsake the whole structure itself. 
 
 I paused for some moments to give him time to draw 
 his own conclusions, and at least to collect his thoughts, 
 for he seemed confused by the position in which he 
 unexpectedly found himself. After a while I asked, — 
 what further argument can you adduce, to demonstrate 
 the existence of this infallible tribunal ? 
 
 He answered " Really I do not just now recollect any 
 other. I thought that these would have been enough/' 
 
 I said — " But how do you prove to your own mind, 
 how do you at this moment satisfy your own mind, as 
 to the existence of this infallible tribunal ? " 
 
 He replied — " I have always assumed it, — I have 
 always assumed it, — I have always taken it for granted 
 without further consideration." 
 
 He spoke this with much emotion. I felt for him, for 
 he seemed both confused and humbled ; and I would 
 not have pressed him farther, only that I felt I had 
 perhaps a duty to discharge, — a duty to the truth of 
 God, — and a duty to himself, by endeavouring to 
 strengthen any doubts that might possibly have been 
 raised in his mind. I therefore addressed him with much 
 earnestness, and in all the kindness of holy brother- 
 hood, reminding him how he had some moments before 
 told me, that he had abandoned Protestant principles, 
 — forsaken the faith of his fathers, — given up the creed 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 79 
 
 and religion of his youth, and embraced the whole system 
 of the Church of Rome, — that he had cast all his diffi- 
 culties and doubts and objections, at the foot of this, 
 infallible tribunal ; and had done despite to his former 
 convictions, and done violence to his judgment, and had 
 done so in submissive obedience to the decisions of this 
 supposed tribunal ; I reminded him also of his having 
 invited me to follow his example, to cease reasoning, to 
 waive objections, to fling all aside and change my 
 church, my religion ; and stake all the interests of time 
 and the destinies of eternity, upon the credit of this 
 infallible tribunal of the Church of Rome, of whose ex- 
 istence or reality he was obliged to acknowledge he 
 had no adequate proof. 
 
 He replied with great feeling — " The truth is, I have 
 always assumed it. It never occurred to me in this 
 light before. I have never further questioned it. I have 
 always assumed it." 
 
 All this portion of our conversation was marked by 
 great emotion on his part, and I felt it difficult to 
 account for it. My opinions of the controversial skill 
 and acumen of the Jesuits, made me suspect that he 
 was only playing a part to throw me off my guard, and 
 lead me to express my real hostility to the Church of 
 Rome. I could not understand how a man trained in all 
 the intrigues and subtleties of the College of the Jesuits, 
 and specially selected to argue with and answer my ob- 
 jections, could have broken down so soon and so easily. 
 And I was therefore undecided as to the character of 
 
80 - MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 his emotion. Whether* it was the natural emotion of a 
 controversialist, who felt himself foiled when he antici- 
 pated an easy victory, or whether it was the emotion of 
 one who had perilled his all for time and eternity, upon 
 a position which he now felt to be untenable, I was at 
 a loss to determine. Perhaps it was not for me to form 
 any opinion. The Lord judgeth the heart. I only 
 know that he expressed himself with great earnestness 
 and emotion, repeatedly placing his hand on his fore- 
 head and repeating the words, " I have always assumed 
 it, I have always taken it for granted.'* I did not in- 
 terrupt the train of his thoughts, whatever they were, 
 but left him under the guidance of Him, who could 
 direct and order all his thoughts to the highest and 
 holiest ends. I felt however that if my friend was 
 sincere, his belief in the Church of Rome was already 
 shaken in its most vital part. 
 
 Some visitors were at this moment announced, and 
 our conversation was interrupted for a short time. 
 During the pause he seemed to be collecting his thoughts 
 and recovering himself, and as my object in all my 
 communication with him and others, was not so much 
 to overthrow his positions, and refute his arguments, as 
 to draw him out so as to learn quietly and unsus- 
 piciously, all he and they had to offer in behalf of the 
 system of Romanism, — as this was my object, learning 
 thus the mode of reasoning and seduction practised on 
 English Protestants, I resumed the subject and asked 
 him, whether he felt satisfied with merely assuming the 
 existence of an infallible tribunal. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 81 
 
 He then said — We can prove its existence, or rather 
 we may assume its existence without proof, in the same 
 way as we assume the existence of God without proof. 
 No man, he continued, can prove the existence of God. 
 It is incapable of proof. Instead of proving it we always 
 assume it ; and in the same way we need not prove the 
 existence of an infallible tribunal, but may assume it 
 without proof. 
 
 I replied, that we never assumed the existence of 
 God, except with those who admitted and believed it : — 
 that I could not speak of the practice in the university 
 and schools of theology of Rome ; but that I could 
 answer for the universities and schools of theology in 
 England ; where they would never assume the existence 
 of God, unless with those who believed and acknow- 
 ledged it. But with the Infidels we argued from the things 
 created, to Him who created them. Everything which 
 we see or know has a beginning, and this is not a thing 
 assumed, but a matter of every man's experience. Every 
 created thing, of which we have any experimental know- 
 ledge, has or has had a beginning. It must be the 
 result of some cause, and that the result of some pre- 
 vious cause, and that again the result of some still pre- 
 cedent cause ; but still however unseen, or distant, or 
 untraceable the various links in the chain of cause and 
 effect, there can be no result without a cause, and 
 consequently a First Cause, and this First Cause we call 
 God. Instead therefore of assuming the existence of 
 the first cause, we prove it; If the existence of an in- 
 
 G 
 
82 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 fallible tribunal on earth be parallel to this, it should 
 be proved as clearly. 
 
 He at once acknowledged that the cases were not 
 analogous, and he said that he could prove his position 
 from the Scriptures. He observed me smiling at this, 
 and he good-humoredly smiled in return, saying, that 
 he feared we could not arrive at any conclusion from 
 them, as we should be sure to adopt different interpre- 
 tations of each place ; and that it was necessary we 
 should commence with some point on which we were 
 agreed, and so argue from it, — that the Scriptures were 
 utterly useless for such a purpose, inasmuch as we could 
 not agree amidst the variety of interpretations, — that 
 they were always appealed to by all parties, and so 
 could really decide nothing satisfactorily, and therefore 
 he suggested that we were agreed on " the Apostle's 
 creed," and could argue from it. 
 
 I said that as he would not argue from the Holy 
 Scriptures, on the ground of there being different in- 
 terpretations or explanations of each place, I feared 
 that there might be the same objection to the Apostle's 
 creed; as we were as likely to differ in our interpreta- 
 tion or explanation of it. But I added, that I would 
 be glad to hear him on the subject. 
 
 He argued from the words. " I believe in the Holy 
 Catholic Church," saying, that the words implied that the 
 Catholic Church was one, — that there was a oneness or 
 unity in it ; that there were not many but one, — that 
 this oneness or unity required that it should have only 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 83 
 
 one head, to give utterance to the sentiments of the 
 Church ; and that this one head must be the seat of in- 
 fallibility, as otherwise the Church would become divided 
 instead of united, and many instead of one. 
 
 I could not but smile at this reasoning, and wondered 
 where the vis consequently was to be found. I said 
 however in reply, that it was the belief of all Protestants 
 that the Church was one in Christ, — that it had not 
 many but one head in Christ, — that it knew and ima- 
 gined only one infallible expression of truth, namely 
 the Holy Scripture ; and then I asked him, — when you 
 say that the Church being one, must have one mouth- 
 piece to utter her sentiments, where is the vis conse- 
 quentice ? And when you say that there being this one 
 mouth-piece, proves the existence of an infallible tribu- 
 nal, where is the vis consequents ? I appealed to him 
 as one practiced in the system of the schools, practiced 
 in the system of reasoning by s}41ogism, whether such 
 reasoning was admissible, and whether he could justly 
 draw such an inference from my believing that Christ 
 has a Holy and Universal Church, — a " Holy Catholic 
 Church. " 
 
 He exhibited on this, as indeed all through our pre- 
 vious conversation, the same apparent candor, as if he 
 was conversing upon a topic on which he felt indifferent, 
 and not at all as if he sought or contemplated my con- 
 version to Romanism. He acknowledged that his argu- 
 ment from the words of the creed, " the Holy Catholic 
 Church," was inconclusive and unsatisfactory, not calcu- 
 
 g 2 
 
84 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 lated to convince ; I therefore asked him whether he 
 thought he could prove his position by any other process. 
 
 He replied by saying, that he thought he should be 
 able to prove, that the existence of an infallible tribunal 
 was not inconsistent with Scripture, or with History, 
 or with Tradition, or with Reason. 
 
 I said, that could not satisfy me, as the existence of 
 the tribunal must first be proved. Its existence must 
 first be established, and then its consistency or incon- 
 sistency with these may be in a way of being debated. 
 I therefore again asked him to prove it. 
 
 He then said that he did not at that moment recollect 
 any further argument. 
 
 I then reminded him, that he had frankly admitted 
 that he had failed in each of the arguments he had 
 already adduced, — that he had withdrawn every one of 
 them, so that we were still as we were at the beginning ; 
 so I asked him for some new and additional argument. 
 
 He said that he had advanced all he had recollected ; 
 that he had thought that these would have sufficed, but 
 that he must admit that he had failed. 
 
 I then asked — Am I to understand that you forsook 
 your Protestant principles, and laid all your scruples and 
 objections and difficulties, — and you have told me they 
 were many and great, — at the feet of this infallible tribu- 
 nal ; when, as you now admit, you have had no conclusive 
 and satisfactory argument to prove even the existence of 
 such a tribunal ! Have you not taken a step of tremen- 
 dous importance on very inadequate grounds, — grounds 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. S5 
 
 that certainly do not justify a course of such overwhelm- 
 ing importance ? 
 
 He replied thoughtfully as before. " I have always 
 assumed it, I have always taken it for granted." 
 
 I then again asked him, whether it was possible he 
 could not produce any stronger proof for the existence 
 of this infallible authority in the Church of Rome ; — 
 since it was the position on which he based all his pro- 
 fessed belief, — that it was the ground on which he 
 asked me to change my Church and faith ; and that it 
 ought therefore to be established by clear and cogent 
 and irrefragable arguments. A man ought not to change 
 his religion or Church on slight grounds. I said that I 
 was indifferent to the common arguments on the subject, 
 as they were in all controversial works, and might there 
 be read by every one; but that I should be glad — and that 
 I was anxious, to hear what those arguments were, which 
 were still influencing his own mind. He had professed 
 a belief in this infallible authority, I asked him on 
 what grounds he then believed in it. 
 
 He answered at once, — He had always been in the habit 
 of assuming it, He had never questioned it, or thought 
 of it in the way in which it had now been considered. 
 A belief in it had been habitual with him. He had always 
 taken it as proved, and he had never questioned it ; but, 
 he added thoughtfully, after a pause, " I must consider 
 the subject, — I must reconsider it." 
 
 The tone and manner in which this fell from him 
 made me pause. The well-known character of all 
 
86 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 connected with the order of the Jesuits, made me won- 
 der at the want of talent, subtlety, and argument so 
 apparent in the part he had taken in this conversation. 
 I had been prepared to see an able, ingenious, and per- 
 haps profound controversialist. I had anticipated this, 
 from all I had ever read and heard of the Jesuits, and 
 especially those who were selected to deal with the 
 Anglican clergy; and I was conscious of feeling some 
 degree of trepidation, in the prospect of measuring 
 lances with such opponents. But here was a man with- 
 drawing his arguments, confessing their inadequacy and 
 invalidity, and acknowledging that he had only habi- 
 tually assumed the existence of infallibility in the 
 Church of Rome ! I was very far from being prepared 
 for this ; and I must candidly confess it, I did not be- 
 lieve the sincerity of it. It had frequently occurred to 
 me, that as he had once been a Protestant, — as he 
 seemed from some things that dropped from him, as to 
 his private affairs and his past life, to feel himself under 
 more controul at Rome than he liked, — he would readily 
 avail himself of a good excuse of again changing his 
 religion and Church ; and would fly to England, if en- 
 couragement and support were ensured to him. This 
 idea had several times occurred to my wife and my- 
 self, especially to her, to whom he had spoken much 
 as to his private history ; so that I thought at some 
 moments that he either could not consciously or would 
 not willingly maintain his argument against me; — I felt 
 perplexed. I sometimes thought that he might be a 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 87 
 
 very honest but misguided and mistaught man, who had 
 never fairly considered the matter, and was now for the 
 first time opening his eyes. And then again I feared it 
 might be the ruse of some subtle and accomplished 
 Jesuit, endeavouring by this appearance of candor to 
 throw me off my guard, and thus ascertain whether my 
 real object was to consider these questions, or to attempt 
 to raise doubts in the minds of the priests at Rome. I 
 felt that if I gave them reason to suppose, that I was 
 making any attempt at proselytising, I should immediate- 
 ly be ordered by the police to leave Rome ; and I there- 
 fore found it difficult to determine how to deal with 
 him. I resolved at last to be silent. I felt that enough 
 had been said to make an honest man reflect, and 
 that if he were only playing the Jesuit with me, my 
 best course was the appearance of indifference, in order 
 to foil his purpose. I therefore turned from the subject, 
 and did not again revert to anything theological for 
 some time. 
 
 After a conversation upon several topics connected 
 with our friends at Rome, I resumed our subject. 
 
 I said we had argued hitherto only as to the exis- 
 tence of an infallible tribunal, and there was a further 
 point on which I was anxious for information, and would 
 be glad to know his opinion ; I alluded to the locality or 
 residence of this infallibility. I said the point presented 
 considerable difficulties to my mind. I did not know 
 where to find it. If once I left the Holy Scriptures I 
 did not know where to go ; and even assuming that an 
 
88 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 infallible tribunal existed sornewhere, I yet could not 
 avail myself of it, for I knew not where to find it, — in 
 the fathers, — in tradition, — in councils, — in popes, — in 
 the Church diffused — I knew not where or to whom I 
 should go. Now assuming its existence somewhere, I 
 asked his opinion as* to whether it could be found in the 
 writings of the fathers. 
 
 His answer was — Certainly not. 
 
 I said that in this I agreed with him ; that I had read 
 a good deal of their writings, — that some of them were 
 undoubtedly master-minds, — that there were some beau- 
 tiful things in them ; but that there were also many 
 things of a very different character, indeed highly objec- 
 tionable ; some things wrong, some things puerile, some 
 things in one father opposed to other fathers, and even 
 some parts of the same father, opposed to other portions 
 of his own writings, so that on the whole they seemed 
 to me a very mistaken and uncertain authority, on which 
 no thinking man could depend. 
 
 He answered by stating his entire concurrence in this 
 sentiment ; saying frankly, that he had not read much of 
 the fathers ; but that from what he had read, with the 
 exception of St. Augustine, there seemed to him much 
 of weakness, much of puerilities, much of positive error, 
 though at the same time, mixed with much talent, piety 
 and learning ; but certainly unworthy of the position in 
 which some theologians seemed disposed to place them ; 
 and whatever good was in their writings, they were 
 wholly unfit for the uses to which some would apply 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 89 
 
 them, as authoritative interpreters of Scripture, or in- 
 deed as authoritative on any question of theology. 
 
 I expressed myself as glad that we were so far agreed, 
 and could thus lay aside the fathers, adding that they 
 themselves justified and recommended our doing so, by 
 the manner in which they treated" one another, con- 
 futing and opposing one another. 
 
 He added that St. Augustine had said, that he would 
 not believe anything merely on the ground that it had 
 been taught by any number of fathers, — that as such 
 the fathers had no authority with St. Augustine ; " and 
 why," he asked, " why should they have authority 
 with us ? " ' 
 
 I perceived that we were agreed thus far, and I there- 
 fore added that the fathers not only rejected each other's 
 authority, but also the authority of councils and 
 Churches, and demanded submission to the Holy Scrip- 
 tures, pointing to them, as is usual among Protestants, 
 as to the only seat of infallible truth. 
 
 He quickly contradicted me in this, and said that 
 the fathers did not reject the decisions of councils or 
 Churches. 
 
 I was prepared for this, and replied by saying, I would 
 let St. Augustine speak for himself, and opening a vol- 
 ume which I had purposely with me, read the following 
 passage from that father. " I ought not to adduce the 
 council of Nice, nor ought you to adduce the council of 
 Ariminum, for I am not bound by the authority of one, 
 nor are you bound by the authority of the other. Let 
 
90 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the question be determined by the authority of the 
 Scriptures, which are witnesses peculiar to neither of 
 us, but common to both." (Con. Max. 3. c. 14.) I said 
 this was a very clear rejection of the authority of coun- 
 cils, the more remarkable as the council of Nice was 
 one of them. 
 
 He remarked that he had not recollected the passage. 
 
 I then called his attention to another, where St. 
 Augustine says, " We do not say that you ought to be- 
 lieve us, that we are in the Church, because Optatus or 
 Ambrose have praised the Church which we hold, nor 
 because other innumerable bishops of our communion 
 have done the same, nor because our Church has been 
 proclaimed by councils of our colleagues, nor because 
 wonderful miracles of hearing and healing have been 
 wrought in those places where our communion is fre- 
 quented ;" and a little afterwards he adds, — " Laying 
 aside all such arguments, let them prove their Church 
 if they can, not in the discourses or reports of the 
 Africans, nor in the councils of their bishops, nor in the 
 writings of any controversialist whatever, nor by mira- 
 cles and wonders, which are liable to deceit, and against 
 which we have been forewarned and cautioned by the 
 words of our Lord. But let them prove it in the law, 
 in the predictions of the Prophets, in the songs of the 
 Psalmist, in the words of the Shepherd himself, in the 
 preaching and labors of the Evangelists, that is, in all 
 the canonical authorities of the sacred volume." I 
 added that in these passages from St. Augustine's trea- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 91 
 
 tise De Unitate (c. 16.) he seems to reject the autho- 
 tiry of fathers, councils, and churches, and appeals only 
 to the Holy Scriptures ; and " why " I asked, " why 
 should not we follow his example, and examine our 
 different doctrines by the Holy Scriptures, which we 
 acknowledge to be infallible, instead of appealing to 
 anything else ? " 
 
 He replied, that he could not go with me in appealing 
 to the Scriptures; as the variety of interpretation to 
 which they were liable would be an insuperable diffi- 
 culty ; and that while he had not distinctly recollected 
 those passages in St. Augustine, yet he had a perfect 
 recollection of that father's expressing himself very dif- 
 ferently elsewhere ; — that he recollected a passage in 
 which St. Augustine expresses himself as willing to 
 submit to anything the bishops required, or which their 
 predecessors enjoined; or the councils desired, or the 
 Church demanded, — that it belonged to them to possess 
 and exercise authority ; and that it was our province to 
 submit and obey ; that whether the things were in Scrip- 
 ture or not, if only the bishop or the Church desired it, 
 it was for us to submit and obey. Such was the opinion 
 of St. Augustine, founding the practice of infant bap- 
 tism, on the simple ground of its being ordered, not by 
 Scripture but by the Church ; and stating that any 
 resistance to the authority of the bishop or the Church, 
 was an act of rebellion. He added that though he did 
 not recollect at the moment where those opinions of St. 
 
92 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Augustine were, he yet had a perfect recollection of 
 having read them in his writings. 
 
 I said that-I quite believed such sentiments were to 
 be found in the writings of that Father, and that I could 
 myself fully enter into them, — that they seemed to me 
 to relate to the ordinary canons, ceremonies, &c, refer- 
 ring to the right conduct of Church matters, which are 
 not touched in Holy Scriptures, and which must be left 
 to the authority of the Church and its officials to 
 arrange. But, I added, u if you refer this language to 
 matters of doctrine and faith I cannot go with you, 
 and the conclusion at which we must arrive is this, 
 namely, that as there are different passages in the wri- 
 tings of St. Augustine, expressing different and opposite 
 opinions, — as not only one father can be cited against 
 another father, but as in this instance, a father can be 
 cited against himself, the most reasonable course would 
 be to lay them altogether aside, and certainly not to 
 appeal to them as an infallible tribunal." 
 
 To this he assented, and even went further, saying, 
 that they never were fitted for being an authority in 
 controversies, — that they frequently contradicted and 
 controverted each other, — that they often retracted and 
 confuted themselves and their own writings, — that many 
 of them held positive error, — that though some were 
 saints, there were others who were not saints ; and that 
 the writings of the fathers had been made too much of 
 by some theologians, being often too erroneous, too 
 fanciful and too puerile, to secure the respect which was 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 93 
 
 frequently paid to them. For himself, he added, that he 
 certainly could not be influenced by them. 
 
 I then asked where, as I must not look to the fathers, 
 where he would direct me in searching for an infallible 
 authority. Whether he would refer me to tradition ? 
 
 He replied promptly and earnestly, " Most certainly 
 not. Tradition is not a safe or infallible guide." 
 
 I expressed myself pleased, at finding we were thus 
 far agreed, for that though I had a profound respect for 
 tradition, in all that was within its proper and peculiar 
 province, I yet could not ascribe to it a shadow of 
 authority in matters necessary to salvation. 
 
 He said, that he quite assented to this, and agreed 
 with me thus far as to all that was purely traditionary ; 
 for although the words which the Apostles preached 
 were quite as authoritative and inspired, and therefore 
 infallible, as the words which the Apostles wrote, yet 
 there was not the same certainty about them. We were 
 not so sure of their identity. Words spoken were too 
 fugitive. The littera scripta was preferable. 
 
 I said that he had just expressed the feeling I always 
 entertained on the subject of tradition, for, admitting 
 that the Apostles' preached word, was quite as authori- 
 tative as the Apostles' written word, yet we were not so 
 sure that we possess the former, — we are not sure that 
 many things are not palmed on them, which they never 
 uttered ; that many errors are not fathered on them, 
 which were never begotten by them, — that that which 
 was purely traditionary was universally regarded by all 
 
94 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 acquainted with historical research, as essentially un- 
 certain, — that consequently I was unable to hold any- 
 thing as necessary to be believed in order to salvation, 
 which was derived only through ecclesiastical tradition ; 
 and that even if more credible than it is, it still would 
 remain too vague and uncertain for any enquiring or 
 thinking person to refer to it, or depend on it as an 
 infallible tribunal. 
 
 He stated broadly and strongly that he felt very 
 much with me, and that tradition — notwithstanding all 
 that was said of it — could never govern his mind. He 
 felt it was altogether too vague — too uncertain — so di- 
 verse at different ages and in different countries, that he 
 could not understand why it had been made so much of 
 in these controversies. He spoke freely of our divines 
 at Oxford — those whose tendencies were towards the 
 Church of Rome, as exhibited in the " Tracts for the 
 Times," in the " Ideal of a Church," in the " Sermon on 
 Tradition," &c. ; and thought they had made a great 
 mistake in making so much of tradition as they affected 
 to do — that it really had not helped them, except among 
 those ignorant of what tradition really was — that it had 
 rather raised in many minds, suspicions and prejudices 
 against them and their object, — that he deeply regretted 
 and deplored that men, who might have turned the 
 whole Church of England, and brought all the people 
 of England nearer to the Church of Rome, and even 
 into her arms, had lost so noble an opportunity, by ex- 
 posing their good cause, by making so much of tradition 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 95 
 
 — that many of them in their zeal without knowledge, 
 had acted with the utmost imprudence in their mode of 
 treating the subject — that they ought to have known 
 that tradition could never be established, — that it could 
 easily be shaken, — that it was variable and uncertain 
 and debateable in itself, — that with calm minds it could 
 never decide other questions. He dwelt long on this 
 point, and concluded by saying, that he fully agreed with 
 me that there was no infallibility in tradition, although 
 the whole history of the Church, he added, gave evidence 
 that an infallibility existed. 
 
 I felt that we had now arrived at an important point 
 in this our conference, and my heart was full of thank- 
 fulness, that the Spirit of all truth had thus far prospered 
 me, and given what I thought some measure of success. 
 It was clear that an appeal to the writings of the fathers 
 and to tradition was abandoned, and by mutual consent 
 rejected. I felt myself in this disencumbered of much 
 trouble, which I had feared would have been in my 
 way, if he had required of me to enter on that large 
 branch of controversy, which he thus readily abandoned 
 as untenable. And I was at the same time fearful of 
 being led to express myself in any terms, that might 
 awaken his suspicions or alarm him. I feared to say or 
 do anything, that might awaken in his mind a suspicion 
 that I was desiring to create doubts in his mind, and to 
 attempt to proselytise him, or even to lead him to think 
 that I was not merely seeking for information, and to 
 clear my own views, and to learn some answer to my 
 
96 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 objections, and to have my difficulties removed : but 
 that I was also playing and tampering with him. I 
 much feared creating such an impression, as would lead 
 him to think I was incorrigible as a Protestant, and 
 altogether beyond his hopes of conversion, which would 
 have led to his withdrawal from all further intercourse 
 with me. I was therefore very thankful to find myself 
 freed from all strife or difference about the fathers and 
 tradition, and thus disencumbered of a great source of 
 uneasiness. He evidently felt that he could not safely 
 rely on any argument derived from either of these 
 sources, and thus easily abandoned them. 
 
 I soon again took the opportunity of reminding him, 
 that at the beginning of our conversation, he had urged 
 me to lay aside all my objections and difficulties and 
 doubts as to transubstantiation, the sacrifice of the 
 mass, the worship of Mary, and other points ; and at 
 once to enter the Church of Rome, laying all these 
 doubts &c, at the foot of infallibility, which had already 
 resolved and settled them. I said that I should now 
 ask him to shew me this infallible tribunal, to tell me 
 where it exists — where I may find it and avail myself 
 of it. There may be, I said to him, a physician able to 
 heal my sickness of the body, but if I know not where 
 to find him, his skill will remain useless to me, and my 
 sickness remains unhealed ; and in the same way, sup- 
 posing that this infallible tribunal exists somewhere for 
 the solution of my doubts, it will remain utterly useless, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 97 
 
 unless I know where to find it in order to avail mvself 
 of it, and cast my difficulties at its feet. Where is it ? 
 
 He answered that it was in the Church speaking by 
 its infallible head — the Pope. 
 
 I said that I had always heard that it was someivhere 
 in the Church, but that men differed in the Church of 
 Rome, as to the precise somewhere. One class of her 
 theologians holds that infallibility resides in the popes. 
 A second class maintains that it resides in a council ; 
 and a third class asserts that it is not in either of these 
 separately or in both conjointly, but that it resides dif- 
 fused through the Church generally. I added that these 
 several classes of theologians always seemed to me to 
 argue very ably in proving that their adversaries are 
 wrong, but to reason very weakly and defectively, when 
 endeavoring to establish their own views ; and I therefore 
 expressed a wish to learn to which of these systems his 
 judgment inclined. 
 
 He answered my enquiry by saying, that the French 
 Divines held that infallibility resides in general councils, 
 and not in the popes — that the Italian Divines hold, 
 that it resides in the popes, and not in councils ; and 
 that the ancient Catholics of England used to side with 
 the Italians in favor of the popes, but that the modern 
 Catholics of that island have passed over to the opinions 
 of the French in favor of councils. He added for him- 
 self, that he held it was in the popes. 
 
 I said in reference to his own views, that I rather 
 coincided with him, not indeed in thinking that infalli- 
 
 H 
 
98 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 bility existed anywhere but in the Holy Scriptures, 
 which were inspired of God, and therefore infallible, 
 but that if it could exist anywhere else — in any of the 
 three seats or parties to which we had referred, the 
 preponderance of argument seemed to me to be decidedly 
 in favor of the papacy. Most of their arguments, I 
 said, seemed to me to be derived from something con- 
 nected with St. Peter — derived from some word spoken 
 to him, or some promise made to him, or some supre- 
 macy supposed to be in him ; and therefore they all 
 seemed to me to point to something in the popes as 
 succeeding him, rather than to anything in councils. 
 
 He expressed himself as much pleased and gratified, 
 at finding I agreed with him on that point, as it was 
 one on which his order — that of the Jesuits — held very 
 decided opinions. 
 
 I then said, that though my impression was that 
 in the question of councils, bishops, and popes, the 
 arguments rather inclined in favor of the claim of 
 the popes, yet, supposing that point settled, and all 
 difficulty removed from my mind on that point, there 
 was a further difficulty immediately called into existence 
 — namely, how it was to be ascertained when the pope 
 delivered himself infallibly. It was admitted, I said, by 
 all parties, that some popes had erred — that some were 
 heretical — and that with orthodox popes, they some- 
 times spoke fallibly, and sometimes infallibly. There 
 are many papal bulls, delivered ex cathedra of course, 
 which were directly opposite and contradictory to other 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 99 
 
 papal bulls, also delivered ex cathedra. And under these 
 admitted circumstances, the difficulty pressing on my 
 mind, would be the means or test by which I could dis- 
 tinguish between the fallible bulls, and the infallible 
 bulls. 
 
 He replied, that that was a very difficult part of our 
 enquiries, and that he thought it would be advisable for 
 me to have a conference, or meeting with the professor 
 of canon law — that he was one of the order of the 
 Jesuits — that he was from the nature of his professor- 
 ship, peculiarly competent to give me information on 
 that precise point, — that he was very learned and 
 talented, and had paid great attention to that depart- 
 ment of ecclesiastical matters ; and finally, that in a few 
 days he should arrange for a conversation on the sub- 
 ject, informing the reverend professor of my difficulties, 
 that he might be prepared before-hand to give all infor- 
 mation and satisfaction to my enquiries. 
 
 Soon after this, with friendly and mutual expressions 
 of a hope, that we might again soon meet to speak for 
 our mutual edification on these deeply interesting 
 matters, we parted. 
 
 H 2 
 
100 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER IV. 
 
 THE DEATH OP A CONVERT — ADMINISTRATION OP FIVE SACRAMENTS — 
 PRAYER THROUGH MARY HEARD SOONER THAN THROUGH CHRIST — 
 ARGUMENT FROM EXPERIENCE — THE MADONNA OF THE AUGUSTINIANS — 
 THE MEANS BY WHICH SAINTS HEAR PRAYERS — GOD A MEDIATOR TO 
 THE SAINTS — OPINIONS OF ST. CHRYSOSTOM — THE INFLUENCE OF THE 
 WORSHIP OF MARY — MARY MORE COMPASSIONATE THAN CHRIST. 
 
 It was not many days after the preceding interview, 
 that another priest of the Church of Rome called on us. 
 He was a man of considerable attainments, and singularly 
 accomplished in some particulars. He held a position 
 of great influence in the Church, and his learning and 
 character added yet more if possible to the influence 
 derived from his station. He came with the frank 
 avowal of his object — namely to attempt our conversion 
 to the Church of Rome. He felt, I believe, a very sin- 
 cere regard for us, and would have made any sacrifice 
 to accomplish what appeared to him so desirable a result. 
 But at the same time, I felt that great caution was re- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 101 
 
 quired on my part — that a word from him could send 
 me at a moment's notice from Rome — and that wisdom 
 and prudence demanded that I should rather endeavor 
 to draw out his opinions — to get at his method of rea- 
 soning with Protestants — to learn all he had to offer — 
 that I should rather endeavor to do this than to declare 
 my own opinions, and so by openly opposing him, ex- 
 pose myself to the danger of being sent from Rome. I 
 believed him to be really our friend, but I feared lest I 
 should make him as really our enemy. 
 
 We soon fell into conversation on the subject. 
 
 It commenced by his asking me, how he had been 
 occupied during the amusements of the carnival — how I 
 supposed he had been engaged, adding that he had taken 
 no part in the ordinary amusements of the season. 
 
 To this enquiry I had no reply to offer, and therefore 
 merely said, that it was to be presumed he was occu- 
 pied with something more suited to his sacred office. 
 
 He immediately rejoined with much complacency, 
 accompanied by some pride and joy — that sort of feel- 
 ing very general among them, when they have performed 
 what is called " a good work " — that he had been en- 
 gaged in receiving a Protestant into the bosom of the 
 Church of Rome. 
 
 I was very far from feeling any complacency at this 
 announcement, and I was anxious to learn which of my 
 countrymen was the unhappy victim. I could not un- 
 derstand how any one seeing the realities of Romanism 
 at Rome, could ever be persuaded to join the system ; 
 
102 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 so resolving to watch my opportunity, and seeing he had 
 some object in introducing the subject, I left him to 
 himself, merely remarking that I thought he had been 
 very naturally occupied. 
 
 He then told the circumstances with much simplicity, 
 that the man was dying — that he had no relatives near 
 him — that one of his companions had talked much to 
 him about sending for a priest — that he had never 
 avowed anything on the subject of religion, or of a 
 priest, — that as he was nearer death, my friend as a 
 priest was at the bedside of the man, — that he found him 
 so far gone as to be speechless — that he therefore stated 
 to him that he would kneel down and offer a prayer for 
 him. His words were " He was speechless ; so I said I 
 would kneel down and say one of my prayers for him. 
 I then immediately knelt down and said the ' Hail 
 Mary/ the ' Ave Maria.' 
 
 I was perfectly astonished, and could not repress the 
 expression of my intense astonishment that at such a 
 moment, when an immortal soul was passing into eter- 
 nity — when all the awful accompaniments of death were 
 around him, he could think of offering such a sentence, 
 for prayer it was not, as the " Hail, Mary ! ' I repeated 
 the words of the " Ave Maria" and asked how it was 
 possible that he had no word to offer — no counsel to 
 give — no message of forgiveness to announce — no gospel 
 of salvation to preach ? how it was possible that instead 
 of praying to Christ for forgiveness, praying to the 
 Spirit for grace, praying to God for salvation, he could 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 103 
 
 only have offered these words of worship to the Virgin 
 Mary ? I was deeply moved at what appeared to me, 
 a frightful neglect of the eternal interest of the dying 
 man ; and did not hesitate to express myself strongly, 
 as to the fearful responsibility he had incurred. 
 
 He seemed not to have heard me, as if he was ab- 
 sorbed in his own thoughts, so that my words were lost 
 on him ; and he said with eagerness that he had observed 
 as he knelt and said the " Hail Mary ! " that the dying 
 man moved his lips as if secretly repeating the words 
 after him, for being speechless he could not repeat the 
 words openly ; and that he said to the dying man, "and 
 can you repeat that prayer after me ? ' For, he said, 
 addressing himself to me, there is nothing against which 
 the feelings and prejudices of Protestants are more 
 strong and enduring than against praying to the Holy 
 Virgin, so " he added " I felt that when the dying man 
 could join me in that prayer to the Holy Virgin, he 
 must have been very far gone towards us." 
 
 " Very far gone indeed," I replied. 
 
 "Yes," he continued, "He seemed to repeat the 
 prayer after me, and feeling he must have gone very far 
 towards us, I asked him farther whether he could not 
 join our Church in all the rest. He shewed by his 
 manner that he could, and that he wished to be received 
 into our Church, so I heard his confession and gave him 
 absolution." 
 
 At this I was on the point of asking my priestly 
 friend, whose tone and manner was exultation in its 
 
104 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 highest degree, how he could hear the confession of a 
 man who was speechless ? and how a speechless man 
 could utter his confession ? but I checked myself on 
 recollecting that according to their canons, he was jus- 
 tified in exhorting the man to make confession, and 
 then in assuming a confession to have been made in such 
 cases, where the person is too far gone to be able to 
 speak; so I was silent. 
 
 He proceeded to say, that after having thus confessed 
 and absolved the dying man, there arose a doubt as to 
 whether the man had ever been baptized ; and though 
 baptism must never be repeated, yet, as Protestants 
 were very careless in administering baptism, it was felt 
 safe to give conditional baptism to such converts. It 
 was so customary he said, among the Protestant Churches 
 to baptize without properly pouring the water on the 
 child, that there was no certainty that there was a real 
 baptism ; and though they could not think of repeating 
 baptism, yet they always gave conditional baptism, in 
 such cases to converts. " And in this way " he added, 
 " I baptised the man conditionally, and then I had him 
 immediately confirmed, and he received the communion, 
 and then the extreme unction, and thus he received 
 almost at once no less than five sacraments ! " 
 
 He spoke this in a tone of exultation and triumph, as 
 if some great and good achievement had been accom- 
 plished. I must confess that I was amused, notwith- 
 standing the sadness of his statement and the solemnity 
 of the subject. It seemed so strange a proceeding for 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 105 
 
 a man, a minister of Christ at the bed of a dying man, 
 merely to offer as a prayer the (i Hail Mary," — it seemed 
 so simply said that when aprotestant prays to the Virgin 
 Mary, he must be very far gone, — it seemed so necessary 
 to apologise for re-baptizing a protestant — it seemed so 
 absurd to speak of a speechless man, making a confession 
 of his sins so as to receive absolution ; and above all it 
 seemed so inconsistent with all our views of true reli- 
 gion, to regard it as necessary, and even to make a boast 
 of it, that this speechless man had in so short a time 
 received the five sacraments — penance — baptism — con- 
 firmation — communion — extreme unction ! 
 
 And then to crown all, he told me in reply to my 
 enquiry, as to what protestant Church the man had be- 
 longed, that he was a Swiss, one of the soldiers of the 
 pope's troops! I felt that a poor Swiss mountaineer sent 
 to Rome in his youth, as a soldier for the pope's guards, 
 living all his life at Rome, and at last dying and speech- 
 less in a foreign land, and with a foreign tongue — I 
 felt that the scene was scarcely one for my friend to 
 boast of. It was one to awaken sadness of heart and 
 gentleness of feeling. The narrative however, was one 
 that gave me the opportunity of introducing an en- 
 quiry, on a subject on which I was anxious to have some 
 information. 
 
 I asked why, on so solemn an occasion as a death-bed, 
 when an immortal soul was about passing into the 
 presence of God — why did you pray to the Virgin Mary 
 instead of praying to Jesus Christ ? In common with 
 
106 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 all protestants, I would have prayed to Jesus Christ, or 
 to God through Jesus Christ. 
 
 He answered — that it was their opinion — the opinion 
 too of many of the Fathers, that God hears our prayers 
 more quickly when they are offered through the blessed 
 Virgin, than when offered through any one else. 
 
 I had anticipated this answer, owing to some things 
 previously communicated tome from another person; 
 and in order to draw him out to an explanation of this 
 doctrine, I merely said that I could not see how it was 
 possible for him to justify such an opinion. 
 
 He replied that there was warrant in Scripture to 
 justify it, for there was in the book of Revelations, a 
 vision in which the elders are described as offering odors, 
 which are said to be the prayers of the saints, so that it 
 was clear that the saints offered prayers for us. 
 
 I reminded him, that "saints " was always the Scrip- 
 ture name of christians, not dead but living christians ; 
 and that "elders/' that is "presbyters," describe the 
 ministry of the Church; and therefore that the vision 
 of the elders offering the prayers of saints, represented 
 the ministry of the Church offering the prayers of the 
 living christians. In all this there was nothing to justify 
 his praying to Mary. The vision described the elders 
 offering the prayers of saints on earth, and did not 
 justify our praying to saints in heaven. And after all I 
 asked, how such a vision could justify his saying the 
 " Hail Mary," at the bed of the dying man, and also 
 justify his statement that God hears the prayer offered 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 107 
 
 through the Virgin Mary, more quickly than that offered 
 to Christ. 
 
 He remained silent. 
 
 I therefore asked, how he supposed those persons 
 whom he regarded as saints in heaven, heard the prayers 
 of men on earth, and how he could justify the practice 
 of praying to them for this intercession, assistance or 
 anything else ? 
 
 He said that it was not a practice or duty obligatory 
 on them — that it was not enjoined or commanded by 
 the Church, that it was only recommended as good and 
 wholesome, at least it was so recommended by the 
 council of Trent. And therefore it was not necessary 
 to communion with them. 
 
 I replied that that was true in theory, but not in 
 practice ; for by making these prayers to saints part and 
 parcel of the public liturgy of the Church, so that no 
 man could join in her services without joining in these 
 prayers to the saints, she practically compelled the 
 thing. But, I added, since the Council of Trent declared 
 the practice to be good and wholesome, it would be well 
 that some reasons or proofs could be adduced to justify 
 the statement. 
 
 He answered promptly, that the argument from ex- 
 perience was decisive. He then paused for a moment, 
 as if recollecting himself, and then went on to say that 
 it was the experience of good catholics, that when they 
 prayed to the blessed Virgin their prayers were answered. 
 Many and many a time, he said, when a godly mother 
 
108 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 prayed for her ungodly son, who was wandering in the 
 way of sin and shame — praying that he might be brought 
 back to repentance and holiness — when a mother thus 
 prayed to the blessed Virgin for her son, she finds that 
 sooner or later her prayer is answered — that her son is 
 brought back repentant and holy ; and connecting this 
 with the blessed Virgin, who was herself a mother and 
 able to sympathise with a mother, she recognises it as 
 the answer of the Virgin to her prayers, and is there- 
 fore encouraged to pray to her again. He continued 
 to say it was the same way in praying to other saints. 
 When praying to them for any particular object, for 
 recovery from sickness — for deliverance from any trouble 
 — for the conversion of a beloved child — or indeed for 
 any object of prayer generally ; when praying thus to a 
 saint for these, it is often found by experience, that the 
 prayer is fulfilled and the object granted, and this ex- 
 perience induces them to pray again and again to the 
 saints. 
 
 I had never heard this argument before, at least in 
 this form, so to prevent all mistake I asked particularly 
 whether his argument was not one simply derived from 
 experience — experience of answer to such prayers. He 
 at once answered in the affirmative, adding that expe- 
 rience proved to be their best encouragement ; and 
 when I remarked that there was no point more liable to 
 be mistaken, than the supposed connection between 
 prayers and events; and that as it was God who alone 
 could dispose and order events, so it was to him alone 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 109 
 
 our prayers should be offered, he did not seem to heed 
 or to hear me, but went on with his own argument. 
 
 He said that many persons had been converted through 
 this method of prayer, through prayer to the blessed 
 Virgin and the saints ; and thus experience of the truth 
 asserted by the Council of Trent, that it was good and 
 wholesome, proved a great encouragement as well as 
 strong argument for it. And the more so, as the feeling 
 of devotion to the Virgin has a mysterious something in 
 it, that will ever linger about the heart of the man who 
 has ever felt it. It is one of those feelings that once 
 admitted can never afterwards be totally obliterated. 
 There it still clings around the heart, and though there 
 may be coldness to all other religious impressions — 
 though there may be infidelity or even scorn upon all 
 our faith — though there may be the plunging into the 
 wild vortex of every sin, yet still there will not unfre- 
 quently be found even among the very worst of our 
 people, a lingering feeling of devotion to the blessed 
 Virgin. It is as a little thread that still keeps hold of 
 the soul, and it will yet draw him back. All else may 
 be broken, but this thread, by which the blessed Virgin 
 holds him, still clings to his soul. Even in the most 
 wild, wicked and desperate men — even among the ban- 
 dits in their worst state, there is always retained this 
 devotion to Mary ; and when we cannot get at their 
 hearts in any other way — when every other argument 
 or truth or principle or feeling of religion fails to make 
 any impression, we frequently find access opened to 
 
] 10 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 their hearts, by this one feeling still lingering about 
 them ; and thus we find by experience that a devotion 
 to the blessed Virgin, proves often the means by which 
 we are able to lay hold of their hearts, and win them 
 back to our holy religion. 
 
 I said, that I had frequently heard of this devotion to 
 the Virgin, as characteristic of some of the very worst 
 persons in Italy — that after renouncing God, the Father, 
 Son and Spirit — after surrendering every element of 
 Christianity and devotion to Christ, they still sometimes 
 retain this devotion to the Virgin Mary. I said that to 
 my poor judgment such a state of things, instead of 
 being an argument in favor of this devotion to Mary, 
 was really its greatest condemnation. It was as if a life 
 of sin and vice and murder, was felt to be inconsistent 
 with a devotion to Christ, but at the same time perfectly 
 compatable with a devotion to Mary. It was as if they 
 felt they could not retain both Christ and sin, but that 
 they could retain both Mary and sin. This at least was 
 the apparent reasoning of such persons, and certainly it 
 was the plain matter of fact, as implied by what had 
 just been stated to be the experience of the Church. 
 At all events I added, it seems to imply that the Virgin 
 Mary is more accessible, more lenient, more loving to 
 the poor sinner, than Jesus Christ. 
 
 He repeated what he had said before on this point 
 expressive of the greater leniency, the gentler com- 
 passion and the closer sympathies of Mary ; adding that 
 he was borne out in such an opinion by that of the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. Ill 
 
 Fathers, of whom many were of opinion that even 
 Christ himself was not so wiling to hear our prayers, 
 and did not hear them so quickly when offered simply 
 to himself, as when they were offered through the blessed 
 Virgin. 
 
 I felt this was a hideous sentiment, and could not 
 forbear to say so, adding that when such opinions were 
 circulated by the priesthood, I could no longer feel 
 surprised at the extent — the extravagance to which the 
 devotion to Mary had gone in Rome — that I felt the 
 whole devotional system of the Church of Rome, the 
 prayers unceasingly offered to the Virgin, the innume- 
 rable pictures of the Virgin, the countless images of the 
 Virgin, the many churches dedicated to the Virgin, the 
 universal devotion rendered to the Virgin, the manner 
 in which all the services and prayers of the Church and 
 people are impregnated with thoughts of the Virgin — 
 the extent to which in conversation all classes went in 
 speaking of the Virgin, all had impressed me with the 
 feeling that the religion of Italy ought to be called the 
 religion of the Virgin Mary, and not the religion of 
 Jesus Christ. I added that it was impossible to justify 
 such a state of things. " If" said I, " I enter the 
 Church of the Augustines, I see there an Image of the 
 Virgin Mary as large as life. Some are decorating her 
 with jewels as votive offerings — some are suspending 
 pictures around her as memorials of thankfulness — some 
 are placing money in a box at her feet — some are pros- 
 trate in profound devotion before her — some are de- 
 
112 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 voutly kissing her feet and touching them with their 
 foreheads — some are repeating the rosary before her as 
 if acceptable to her — all turning their backs upon the 
 consecrated Host, turning their backs upon that which 
 the priest is elevating at the High Altar, and which he 
 and they believe to be Jesus Christ himself bodily and 
 visibly among them — turning their backs upon Christ, 
 and turning their faces to Mary, practically forsaking 
 Christ for Mary, with a prostration the most profound 
 before her Image — a prostration that was never sur- 
 passed in the days of heathen Rome, and can never be 
 justified in Christian Rome." 
 
 He said in answer to all this, that for his own part he 
 would not act thus, and that it was not right to judge 
 of the Church by the devotion of the ignorant. 
 
 My wife then interposed, and said she had witnessed 
 all this, and was shocked at what seemed to her to be a 
 most fearful idolatry, for while the priest was saying 
 mass and elevating the Host at one end of the Church, 
 and some of the people bowing before it, the Image of 
 Mary stood at the other end, and some of the people 
 were in precisely the same way bowing before it. Some 
 preferred what they believed to be Christ. Some pre- 
 ferred what they regarded as an Image of the Virgin. 
 
 He replied with much gentleness, that he never 
 prayed to the Virgin of the Augustines — that it was not 
 a sightly image — that it was really an ugly image and 
 had never excited his devotion, and in fact he had never 
 prayed before it ; but still he thought it scarcely fair to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 113 
 
 speak against this devotion to Mary as exhibited by the 
 more ignorant, inasmuch as they had learned its value 
 by experience. Many of those, whom we had witnessed 
 there, had no doubt offered many a prayer to her and 
 had found an answer. Many a mother praying for her 
 child had obtained her petition. They were poor people, 
 subject to privations, afflictions, sicknesses, and they 
 found relief and consolation in going to the blessed 
 Virgin. 
 
 He said all this in a manner embarrassed and hesita- 
 ting, as if feeling he must say something, but as having 
 no confidence in his own words; and when, observing this, 
 I reminded him that these poor people ought to have 
 been directed to Him, who is " the Father of mercies 
 and the God of all consolation," he seemed to feel the 
 truth of it, but was silent. 
 
 After a few words shewing the true source of relief 
 and consolation in all our distresses and afflictions, I 
 went on to say that there could be no answer from the 
 Virgin Mary, inasmuch as she could not hear the prayers 
 that were offered to her. I asked — How does the Virgin 
 Mary hear the prayers of men ? How do the saints 
 hear our prayers? 
 
 He looked at me as if he had never thought of the 
 point before, as if the enquiry had never occurred to 
 him before. He said nothing. 
 
 I therefore proceeded to state clearly the point in- 
 volved in my question. I said, that, as the Godhead from 
 its very nature was omnipresent and omniscient, it was 
 
 i 
 
114 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 easy to understand God's hearing our prayers, and know- 
 ing our devotion of heart. He could know our feelings, 
 our wishes, our wants, our sincerity, our prayers. But 
 the Virgin Mary was not omnipresent or omniscient. 
 The other saints were not omnipresent or omniscient, 
 and as neither she nor they could read the secret depths 
 of the human heart, so it was not easy to understand 
 how they could hear or know the prayers that were 
 offered to them. It should be recollected that one man 
 prays to the Virgin Mary in London, a second prays to 
 her in China, a third in America, &c. It seems hard 
 to conceive, how she can hear and know the prayers 
 offered thus by different persons in London, in China, 
 in America, &c. It seems difficult to understand, how 
 she or any saint in heaven can know the wishes, the 
 thoughts, the devotion, the prayers of the millions, who 
 are praying to them in so many different parts of the 
 world at the same time. If she or they were omnipre- 
 sent — if omniscient as the Godhead, all would be easy 
 to conceive, all would be intelligible ; but as they are 
 no more than finite creatures in heaven, this cannot be. 
 I asked therefore — how can Mary — how can any Saint 
 in heaven hear the multitude of prayers from the mul- 
 titude of hearts on earth ? 
 
 He said in reply that they were spirits, that they were 
 not like us on earth, but spiritual beings in heaven. He 
 spoke as if the difficulty had never occurred to his mind 
 in its strength before — as if he really thought that, from 
 their being not corporeal but spiritual, everything was 
 easy. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 115 
 
 I reminded him that their being spirits, embodied or 
 disembodied did not affect the question. They were 
 finite spirits, and therefore could not pervade the infi- 
 nite. They were not omnipresent. They were not 
 omniscient. They were only spirits, and not God, who 
 alone knoweth the heart, and therefore who alone 
 knoweth prayer. 
 
 I have seldom seen a man, habituated to controversy, 
 more perplexed than my friend appeared at this ques- 
 tion, touching the means by which Mary or the saints 
 could hear and know our prayers. For a moment he 
 seemed disposed to think it might be some privilege in 
 the possession of such spirits, but after some hesitation 
 and acknowledgment of the difficulties the question 
 raised, he threw out, in the way of suggestion, that it 
 might perhaps be that God reveals it to them — that 
 being in God's presence they learn it from Him. 
 
 I remarked that this was no more than a suggestion — 
 a mere perhaps — a supposed possibility. It was not a 
 settled fact on which a system could be based, and 
 therefore it was wholly inadequate to justify so grave a 
 practice. 
 
 He said at once, that he did not just at that moment 
 recollect any other way, in which our prayers or hearts 
 could be known to the blessed Virgin, or the blessed 
 saints. 
 
 T therefore said that his suggestion, though as good 
 as any other of which I had read or heard, defeated the 
 whole object of the practice. The practice of invoking 
 
 i 2 
 
116 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Mary and the other saints, was taught on the principle 
 that men ought not to approach God directly or imme- 
 diately, but indirectly through these as his favorites, 
 even as we would approach an earthly sovereign through 
 his courtiers. 
 
 He at once assented to this. 
 
 I therefore added, that if the prayers and aspirations 
 of votaries, are not heard or known to the saints until 
 God reveals them to them, — until they learn them 
 through Him, then the prayers and aspirations must 
 first go to God, and afterwards to the saints — must in 
 short go directly and immediately to God, and indirectly 
 and mediately to the saints. This utterly subverts the 
 whole system, which is based upon the opposite idea. 
 It supposes that the prayer first reaches God — that He 
 reveals it to the saint — that the saint then prays it back 
 again to God, presenting to Him the petition of the 
 votary ; and thus according to this system, God is our 
 mediator to the saints, and not the saints our mediators 
 to God. 
 
 He said that they did not regard the saints as medi- 
 ators of redemption, but only as mediators of intercession, 
 who were to intercede with God for us. 
 
 I replied that 1 was fully aware of the distinction, 
 but that it rather strengthened my argument ; for as 
 their province was to present our prayers to God, and 
 to intercede with God to hear and grant our prayers, 
 so it was especially essential to them as intercessors, 
 that they should hear our prayers and know our hearts. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 117 
 
 " You," I added " make the Virgin Mary and the saints 
 mediators of prayer. It is necessary therefore that they 
 be able to hear our prayers ; and the only explanation 
 you give is a suggestion that makes God our mediator 
 of prayer to the saints, instead of the saints being 
 mediators of prayer to God." 
 
 He evidently had nothing farther to offer. He saw 
 the difficulty, and after some hesitation, from which I 
 was not disposed to extricate him, being in hopes of 
 having raised a doubt or at least a question in his mind, 
 that might work there hereafter, he said — that at all 
 events the Council of Trent had not commanded the 
 practice. 
 
 To this I said, that the point for him and for me to 
 consider for our own soul's sake, was not whether the 
 Council of Trent commanded it or not. There could 
 be no question as to the fact, that the thing was prac- 
 tised ; and though it was attempted to justify it, by 
 saying we should approach an earthly sovereign through 
 his courtiers or favorites, and ought in the same way to 
 seek access to the King of heaven ; yet, when it is 
 considered that, according to his system, we must first 
 make our petition known to the king, and then the king 
 must make it known to his courtiers, or favorites ; and 
 then they must tell it back again to the king — when it 
 is considered that his suggestion requires such a parallel 
 as this, it must be felt that it requires no elaborate re- 
 futation. 
 
 He seemed to feel the difficulty of his position, and 
 
118 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to be revolving in his mind how he best could escape it. 
 But although he exhibited a desire to find an answer, as 
 if anxious to gain a controversial victory rather than to 
 attain a truth, I yet felt that the difficulty might, by the 
 blessing of divine grace, give birth to other difficulties ; 
 and so shaking his confidence in the imagined impreg- 
 nability of .his Church, might lead eventually to farther 
 and fresh enquiry. I could not expect that anything 
 that I could offer, especially under the peculiar circum- 
 stances and manner in which I was obliged to state my 
 views, could have any lasting effect on his mind, espe- 
 cially as I could so seldom give expression to my argu- 
 ment as if it were my own deep feeling ; but only as a 
 suggestion, as to what might possibly be the impression 
 on the minds of others. But I also felt much encou- 
 ragement, for I knew I was acting for the best, and 
 that it was my duty to leave the result, in a spirit of 
 prayer and faith, with Him who orders all things accord- 
 ing to the councils of his own will. In this feeling 
 therefore, when I observed him perfectly perplexed, I 
 pressed the difficulty in another form. 
 
 I added, that I could not see how the practice could 
 be " good and profitable," inasmuch as it lay on the 
 verge of idolatry. Without saying that it was idolatry 
 in the strict sense of the word, there were many who 
 could scarcely see how they could avoid idolatry, for 
 there was no certainty as to the real sanctity of these 
 saints — there were many enrolled in the canon of saints, 
 of whose title to that pre-eminence there was no great 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 119 
 
 evidence — at all events no very satisfactory or certain 
 evidence. In short no man on earth could speak with 
 certainty, as to the persons who are saints in heaven. 
 There were many persons who had no faith in the pro- 
 cess of canonization — no confidence in the process of 
 examination before canonization — no assurance of the 
 genuine sanctity of the persons canonized — even more, 
 who believed that some of those supposed saints were in 
 a far worse region than heaven ; and thus the praying 
 to them might prove to be praying to devils, instead of 
 saints, and so be the very worst species of idolatry. 
 
 He said, that though my objection might hold so far 
 as absolute certainty was required, yet that there was 
 moral certainty as to the sanctity of those who were en- 
 roll e4 or canonized as saints, and he thought that moral 
 certainty was sufficient in such a case — that we might 
 reasonably and safely proceed on moral certainty ; but 
 that at all events, men might pray to the Virgin and the 
 Apostles, as there could be no doubt as to their sanctity. 
 
 I replied that this objection did not apply to them, 
 but to St. Dominic, St. Francis, St. Thomas a Becket, 
 and some others. St. Dominic was remarkable as the 
 most ferocious of persecutors, St. Francis as the inventor 
 of superstitions, and St. Thomas as the disturber of 
 kingdoms — that the argument applied to such saints as 
 they; but that the objection, so far as the Virgin and 
 the Apostles were concerned, was that drawn from the 
 impossibility of their hearing the prayers that were 
 offered to them. 
 
120 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 He paused a moment, and then stated that the ancient 
 Fathers of the Church recommended the practice. 
 
 I replied by saying, that it was very true that some 
 of the fathers seemed to recommend the practice, but it 
 was equally true that some others of them as strongly 
 objected against it — that the most diverse and opposite 
 passages might be cited from them upon the point, not 
 only from different fathers, but even from the same 
 father, his writings in one place being the opposite of 
 his opinions recorded in another ; and I proposed at 
 once to produce passage for passage with him in the 
 library — to produce a passage against the practice for 
 every one he could produce in its support. And I then 
 suggested that if this could be done, the writings of the 
 fathers ought to be laid aside as contradictory, and 
 therefore of no authority on the subject. 
 
 He hesitated in his answer to this, but after a moment 
 replied, that the contradictions were only apparent and 
 not real, and could be easily reconciled. 
 
 I referred at the instant to St. Chrysostom, where he 
 cites the example of the woman of Canaan, not stopping 
 to pray to the Apostles but going to Christ himself, 
 " God," says Chrysostom, " is always near. If you en- 
 treat a man, you must enquire what he is doing and 
 whether he is asleep or at leisure, and perhaps the ser- 
 vant gives no answer. But with God there is nothing of 
 all this. Whenever you go and call on Him, He hears ; 
 with Him there is no want of leisure, no mediator, no 
 servant to keep you off. Mark the wisdom of the woman 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 121 
 
 of Canaan. She does not pray to James. She does not 
 beseech John. She does not fly to Peter ; but she 
 breaks through them all, saying, I want no mediator, 
 but taking repentance as my spokesman, I come to the 
 fountain itself. It was for this He left the heavens, it 
 it was for this He became flesh, it was that such as I 
 might have boldness to speak to Himself. I want no 
 mediator ; Have mercy upon me." I argued that this 
 was language against going to the saints, very different 
 from what my friend had employed on this point. 
 
 To this he replied, that he could adduce passages 
 from St. Chrysostom quite as strong in favor of the 
 practice, and that such as I had cited were capable of 
 explanation — that the woman certainly ought not to 
 have gone to St. Peter, or St. James, for that the Lord 
 himself was present. He was there in the flesh and 
 she ought to have gone to Him at once, and this was all 
 that was designed by St. Chrysostom. 
 
 I reminded him, that such an explanation might 
 apply to the fact in the gospel narrative, but that the 
 argument was not on the gospel narrative, but on the 
 exhortation of St. Chrysostom. He expressly says, in 
 another place " When we have a petition to make to 
 men, it is often the case that we cannot go straight to 
 themselves, and speak with them : but it is necessary 
 for us first to procure the favor of their ministers or 
 stewards or officers — but with God it is not thus. There 
 is no need of intercessors of prayer with Him, and He 
 is not so ready to hear our prayers, and answer graciously 
 
122 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 when we pray through others, as when we come and 
 pray of ourselves to Him." Now our Lord was not 
 there present, when St. Chrysostom gave this advice to 
 his people, and therefore the explanation does not apply 
 — does not touch the real point of the argument, namely, 
 that St. Chrysostom advises us not to go to the saints, 
 but to go directly to Christ Himself. 
 
 He avoided this precise point, and went on to say 
 that he could cite places from St. Chrysostom and 
 other fathers that were quite opposite to this ; and 
 though there might thus be the appearance of self-con- 
 tradiction in their writings, yet they could easily be 
 explained by a comparison with other places, — that 
 apparently contradictory passages might be cited in re- 
 ference to the blessed Trinity — to the incarnation, &c. 
 that this was particularly true in reference to the use 
 of images, against which there certainly were very strong 
 passages in some of the fathers, but those passages ought 
 to be explained away, instead of being regarded as con- 
 tradictory, or opposed to images, for it ought not to be 
 supposed that the fathers were opposed to images, St. 
 Gregory expressly saying that images might, be kept for 
 devotion but not for worship, and Epiphanius and others 
 were equally clear. 
 
 I reminded him, that when Epiphanius saw a vail or 
 curtain in the Church with a picture on it, he imme- 
 diately tore it in pieces, and forbid the practice. 
 
 He took no notice of this, but added that in the old 
 liturgies there were prayers to the saints, and as litur- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 123 
 
 > 
 
 gies were the truest tests or evidences of the opinion of 
 the Church, so they prove beyond answer the practice 
 of the primitive Churches. 
 
 I said in reply to this, that I was under the opposite 
 impression — that I had seen these liturgies, those that 
 go by the names of Basil, Nazianzen, Chrysostom and 
 others; and never saw prayers to the saints; — that there 
 were express prayers for the Virgin Mary, and the 
 Apostles, and the saints, but not prayers to them; — 
 that so far as my reading went, it appeared to me that 
 in the ancient liturgies generally, the prayers were for 
 the saints, and in the modern liturgies of Rome, the 
 prayers were to them ; and that this was some difference 
 indeed, and one that at all events took away the cogency 
 of what he had stated in reference to the liturgies, and 
 the practice of the primitive churches. 
 
 He denied this in a manner that, as it struck me, 
 shewed he had either never before heard my statement, 
 or had at least never examined the subject with much 
 care; and he seemed to regard his own statement as so 
 certain, as to be beyond contradiction ; so he turned the 
 subject, and reverting to the former point, said that the 
 practice of praying to the Virgin Mary was found to be a 
 holy practice — a practice greatly tending to promote holi- 
 ness in those that cultivate it. " When," he said warmly, 
 " we think of the purity and the holiness of the Virgin 
 — when we think of her as selected by God to bear his 
 Son in her womb — when we think of her as the purest 
 and holiest of creatures — the very thought of one so 
 
124 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 pure and holy, will dissipate every thought of impurity 
 and unholiness — the very thought of one so sinless, will 
 take away every thought of sin. A devotion to the 
 blessed Virgin prevents us from sinning, and a sincere 
 devotion to her is a great safe-guard against sin." 
 
 Such a sentiment as this could scarcely be heard un- 
 moved, by any one who loved the Gospel and cherished 
 a feeling for the glory of the Saviour. It was substitu- 
 ting Mary for Christ — substituting the thought and 
 recollection of Mary for the thought and recollection of 
 Christ — substituting the notion of her purity for the 
 reality of his purity, and substituting some fanciful 
 ideas respecting her, for the remembrance of his death 
 and sacrifice and atonement, as a safe-guard against sin. 
 It was a difficulty with which I had often to struggle, 
 in endeavoring to repress the strong and warm expres- 
 sion of my real feelings on such occasions of blasphemy"; 
 for I could scarcely think otherwise of the sentiment. 
 But I was, considering the natural warmth of my nature, 
 greatly restrained and preserved from shewing a de- 
 cision of feeling, which might have compelled my retire- 
 ment from Rome. 
 
 I therefore merely asked him, though with all the 
 earnestness which I felt, whether if attending the bed 
 of a dying man, he would feel himself justified in speak- 
 ing to an immortal soul, when about to pass into eter- 
 nity, and desiring him to fly to Mary — that in all his 
 doubts and perplexities he was to look to Mary — that 
 in all his fears and terrors he was to look to Mary — I 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 125 
 
 asked whether, considering his responsibility at such a 
 moment, he would address a dying man in language 
 that pointed only to the Virgin Mary and made no 
 mention of Jesus Christ ? I then read the following 
 words from the Roman Breviary. " If the winds 
 of temptation arise, if thou run upon the rocks of 
 tribulation, look to the star, call upon Mary. If thou 
 art tossed upon the waves of pride, of ambition, of de- 
 traction, of envy, look to the star, call upon Mary. If 
 anger, or avarice, or the temptations of the flesh, toss 
 the bark of thy mind, look to Mary. If disturbed with 
 the greatness of thy sins, troubled at the defilement of 
 thy conscience, affrighted at the horrors of the judgment, 
 thou beginnest to be swallowed up in the gulf of sad- 
 ness, the abyss of despair, think upon Mary — in dangers, 
 in difficulties, in doubts, think upon Mary, invoke Mary. 
 Let her not depart from thy mouth, let her not depart 
 from thy heart, &c." I asked him solemnly, whether 
 he would use such language, even though sanctioned by 
 his Breviary, in preparing a dying man for the presence 
 of God in the eternal world. 
 
 He replied unhesitatingly that he would, and then 
 went on to argue that experience justified him — that 
 experience proved that the prayers offered to the Virgin 
 were heard and answered — that mothers praying to her 
 who was herself a mother, with all the sympathies of a 
 mother, were heard and answered — that such prayers 
 for children in sin, or in danger, or in sickness, were 
 heard and answered ; and it was this practical experience 
 
126 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that proved the great encouragement to the devotion of 
 ourselves to the Virgin Mary. He then went on to say 
 that a Catholic devotion to the blessed Virgin, never in- 
 terfered with a right devotion to Jesus Christ, but re- 
 dounded rather to his glory; but that it required a 
 Catholic heart to see and understand this, — that one 
 who was not a Catholic could not understand it, — that 
 the ignorant often perverted it, going on in sin, under the 
 belief, that by praying to her she will pardon them, — 
 that all this was only the abuse of the system — that the 
 devotion to Mary was a holy devotion, and a source of 
 holiness. If we think of one so pure, so chaste, so holy, 
 the thought will keep us from sin. St. Alphonso de 
 Liguori was a proof of this, so devoted to the blessed 
 Virgin, and so holy in his life. The order of the Jesuits 
 was another illustration. Their devotion to the blessed 
 Virgin is known through the whole world, and as for 
 their holiness, they have been accused of ambition, of 
 intrigue, of politics, with opposing sovereigns and dis- 
 turbing the peace of kingdoms, but no one has ever 
 charged them with impurity or immorality. They are 
 a living proof that devotion to the blessed Virgin is 
 conducive to holiness. But, he added, it requires a 
 Catholic heart to comprehend this. To others it may 
 seem dishonoring to Jesus Christ, yet it is not so. The 
 Holy Virgin is never honored above Christ, nor as equal 
 to Christ, but only as His mother, who has a mother's 
 influence over him ; and thus all the homage and worship 
 paid to her, is really a homage and a worship to Him, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 127 
 
 inasmuch as it is only as His mother that it is offered 
 to her. 
 
 He ran on in this way for some time, and I feared to 
 interrupt him by any attempt at opposing or confuting 
 him. It would have given me the appearance of an 
 opponent rather than a listener ; and when I considered 
 the station and influence of the person, I felt particu- 
 larly anxious not to awaken suspicion, and desirous to 
 appear as an intelligent and enquiring listener. 
 
 I therefore said, that I was acquainted with some of 
 the works of the St. Alphonso de Liguori whom he 
 mentioned, — that among other things in his " Glories 
 of Mary," is the vision of the two ladders extending 
 from earth to heaven — that at the top of one is the 
 Virgin Mary, and at the top of the other is Jesus Christ ; 
 — that all who attempted to enter heaven by the ladder 
 of Jesus Christ fell back and failed, while all who tried 
 the ladder of the Virgin Mary succeeded by her assis- 
 tance. I mentioned this as I had already done in conver- 
 sation with another priest, and I asked whether such 
 language did not exalt the Virgin Mary, not only as 
 equal but as superior to Jesus Christ — superior in the 
 love and compassion and mercy of a Saviour, as if she 
 was a safer Saviour than Jesus Christ ? 
 
 He seemed thoroughly vexed and ashamed at this 
 quotation from an author and saint whom he had so 
 highly praised. He hesitated and seemed perplexed for 
 a satisfactory answer ; but at length said, that such lan- 
 guage was intended by Liguori, merely to express the 
 
128 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 love of Mary, and to shew how willingly and how effec- 
 tually she uses her influence as a mother, in behalf of 
 those devoted to her. He then added, that it was the 
 opinion of many of the fathers and saints, that God 
 hears more quickly the prayers that are offered through 
 the blessed Virgin — that so greatly is she in the love of 
 God, and so great in her influence with God, that the 
 prayers offered through her ascend to heaven more 
 quickly, and are heard and answered more speedily and 
 effectually than otherwise ; and this was probably the 
 meaning of Liguori in the details of the two ladders 
 from St. Bernard — that many sinners are troubled with 
 fears on account of their sins — that surely we all must 
 at times be in fear on account of our many sins — that 
 many such fearful or timid sinners come to Mary instead 
 of Jesus. They feel that she is so merciful, so loving, 
 so willing to save them, that they come to her instead 
 of coming to him — that when they think of Jesus Christ 
 they are afraid. 
 
 " Afraid of Jesus ! " I exclaimed involuntarily, startled 
 at the idea of Jesus being less attractive, less loving, less 
 merciful than Mary. " Afraid of Jesus, who died for 
 them — who shewed his love in dying for them, and yet 
 not afraid of Mary, who never professed or shewed any 
 love for them ! " 
 
 He immediately checked himself, and looked sus- 
 piciously and enquiringly at me. 
 
 I feared I had shewn my feeling too plainly, and 
 therefore in the hope of turning the subject, asked him 
 to explain the vision of the two ladders on his principles. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 129 
 
 He said expressively, that he had already explained 
 the doctrine of the Church — that as our Lord on the 
 cross desired John to behold his mother, and that dis- 
 ciple obeyed and took her to his own home, so he was 
 a type of the Church, which is in like manner ever to 
 look on Mary as its mother ; and therefore the Church 
 respects her, loves her, serves her, and venerates her as 
 its mother, to whom as a child, she comes for comfort, 
 consolation, grace and assistance in every time of need. 
 
 I replied, that our Lord on the cross desired the 
 Virgin Mary to look on the beloved disciple John, as 
 if he were her son, instead of Him now dying on the 
 cross ; and then desired the beloved disciple John to 
 look on Mary, now bereaved and desolate, as if she 
 were his own mother, and to take care of her as such. 
 And the narrative states, that John acting on this, took 
 Mary to his own home, and thus complied with the 
 dying wishes of Jesus Christ. " But," I added, " how 
 does this prove the moral of the two ladders, and those 
 seeking Heaven through Mary, succeeding and being 
 saved, while those seeking heaven through Jesus Christ, 
 fail in the effort V y 
 
 He replied, that he was unwilling to argue further — 
 that he had stated the doctrine of the Church — that that 
 doctrine in honoring Mary, was not dishonouring to 
 Christ — that it was a subject on which, as that of Images 
 and Pictures, there was much misunderstood, and that it 
 required "a Catholic heart" to understand it rightly. 
 
 He thus broke off the conversation. 
 
 K 
 
130 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER V. 
 
 INVITATION TO A POLEMICAL DISCUSSION— THE PROHIBITION OP THE SCRIP- 
 TURES FOR SALE AT ROME — UNIVERSAL IGNORANCE OF THE SACRED 
 VOLUME — SALVATION ONLY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME — INFALLIBILITY OF 
 THE POPES NECESSARY TO BE BELIEVED — WHETHER THERE BE SALVA- 
 TION IN THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND — THE CHURCH OF ROME HAS NEVER 
 CLAIMED INFALLIBILITY. 
 
 A communication had been made to me to the effect, 
 that the reverend professor of Dogmatic Theology 
 wished to have a theological discussion with me. Whether 
 this arose from a hope, that he might prove a means of 
 making a proselyte of me, or from a desire for a con- 
 troversial conference with me, in consequence of our 
 previous collision in the Collegio Romano, it is not for 
 me to state. A communication had been made to me 
 by a clerical friend of the Church of England, that the 
 professor had expressed himself thus desirous of a meet- 
 ing, and a formal message with an invitation or challenge 
 to a theological discussion was afterwards conveyed to me 
 by the reverend professor of Canon Law. I gladly accept- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 131 
 
 ed it ; I felt it might prove a new and additional source 
 of information, as to the real nature of the Church of 
 Rome, and the arguments by which she is supported, 
 though I certainly felt rather nervous at the prospect 
 of a controversy with two of the most able and subtle 
 of the order of Jesuits. A brother clergyman was with 
 me, and we knelt together and prayed with earnestness, 
 for the light and grace of which we felt in need. 
 
 On the appointed day we knelt together in prayer — 
 and soon afterwards the professor of Canon Law, and 
 the professor of Dogmatic Theology were announced. 
 At first our conversation was of a general character, but 
 soon turned to those subjects which were congenial to 
 all our feelings. 
 
 Some remarks had been made by me designedly on 
 the subject of the Holy Scriptures, with a view to 
 directing our conversation into a profitable channel ; 
 and i took occasion to remark on the ignorance of the 
 Holy Scriptures, so prevalent among the people of Italy 
 — so prevalent indeed, that it was impossible to argue 
 with them ; and that it seemed to English minds, a 
 practical illustration of that which was so often asserted 
 in England, namely, that the Church of Rome was 
 opposed to the circulation of the sacred volume. 
 
 The professor of Dogmatic Theology replied by say- 
 ing, that although it was very true that the people were 
 wholly unacquainted with the nature of the Holy Scrip- 
 tures, yet it was very incorrect to suppose that the 
 Catholic Church was opposed to their reading them — 
 
 k 2 
 
132 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that the Church set a great value on the sacred volume, 
 and venerated it too highly to let it be used commonly 
 or indiscriminately — that so far from forbidding its cir- 
 culation and perusal, the Church permitted it to all, 
 whom she thought likely to profit by it ; and forbade it 
 only to those who, being ignorant, would be likely to 
 pervert and misapply it ; but that it was a great mistake, 
 and indeed a calumny against the Catholic Church, to 
 say that she was opposed to the full and unrestricted use 
 and circulation of the Scriptures. 
 
 The answer I made to this was, that having resided 
 many years among a Roman Catholic population in 
 Ireland, I had always found that the sacred volume was 
 forbidden to them ; and that since I came to Italy, and 
 especially to Rome, I observed the most complete igno- 
 rance of the Holy Scriptures, and that it was ascribed 
 by themselves to a prohibition on the part of the Church. 
 
 He at once stated that there must be some mistake, 
 as the book was permitted to all who could understand 
 it, and was in fact, in very general circulation in Rome. 
 
 I said that I had heard the contrary, and that it was 
 impossible to procure a copy of the Holy Scriptures in 
 the Italian tongue, in the city of Rome — that I had so 
 heard from an English gentleman, who had resided 
 there for ten years — that I looked upon the statement 
 as scarcely credible — that I wished much to ascertain 
 the matter for my own information — that I had one day 
 resolved to test this by visiting every bookselling 
 establishment in the city of Rome — that I had gone to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 133 
 
 the book-shop belonging to the Propaganda Fide — to 
 that patronised by his holiness the Pope — to that which 
 was connected with the Collegio Romano, and was 
 patronised by the order of Jesuits — to that which was 
 established for the supply of English and other foreign- 
 ers — to those which sold old and second-hand books — 
 and that in every establishment without exception, I 
 found that the Holy Scriptures were not for sale. I 
 could not procure a single copy in the Roman language 
 and of a portable size, in the whole city of Rome ; and 
 that when I asked each bookseller the reason of his not 
 having so important a volume, I was answered in every 
 instance e prohibito or non e permesso, that the volume 
 was prohibited, or that it was not permitted to be sold. 
 I added that Martini's edition was offered to me in two 
 places, but it was in twenty-four volumes, and at a cost 
 of 105 francs, (that is four pounds sterling), and that 
 under such circumstances I could not but regard the 
 Holy Scriptures as a prohibited book, at least in the 
 city of Rome. 
 
 He replied, by acknowledging that it was very pro- 
 bable, that I could not find the volume in Rome, espe- 
 cially as the population of Rome was very poor, and 
 not able to purchase the sacred volume ; and that the 
 real reason the Scriptures were not at the booksellers, 
 and also were not in circulation, was not that they were 
 forbidden or prohibited by the Church, but that the 
 people of Rome were too poor to buy them. 
 
 I replied, that they probably were too poor, whether 
 
134 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 in Rome or in England, to give 105 francs for the 
 book ; but that the clergy of Rome, so numerous and 
 wealthy, should do*as in England, — namely, — form an 
 association for cheapening the copies of the Scriptures. 
 
 He said in reply, that the priests were too poor to 
 cheapen the volume, and that the people were too poor 
 to purchase it. 
 
 I then stated that if this was really the case — that if 
 there was no prohibition against the sacred volume — 
 that if they would be willing to circulate it, and that 
 really and sincerely there was no other objection than 
 the difficulties arising from the price of the book, that 
 difficulty should at once be obviated. I would myself 
 undertake to obtain from England through the Bible 
 Society, any number of Bibles that could be circulated, 
 and that they should be sold at the lowest possible 
 price, — or given freely and gratuitously to the inhabitants 
 of Rome. T stated that the people of England loved 
 the Scriptures beyond all else in this world, and that it 
 would be to them a source of delight and thanksgiving 
 to give for gratuitous circulation, any number of copies 
 of the sacred volume that the inhabitants of Rome 
 could require. 
 
 He immediately answered, that he thanked me for 
 the generous offer, but that there would be no use 
 in accepting it, as the people of Rome were very igno- 
 rant — were in a state of brutal ignorance — were unable 
 to read anything, and therefore could not profit by 
 reading the Scriptures, even if we supplied them gra- 
 tuitously. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 135 
 
 I could not conceal from myself, that he was pre- 
 varicating with me — that his former excuse of poverty, 
 and this latter excuse of ignorance, were mere evasions. 
 So I asked him, whose fault it was, that the people re- 
 mained in such universal and unaccountable ignorance. 
 There were above five thousand priests, monks, and 
 nuns, beside cardinals and prelates in the city of Rome, 
 that the whole population was only thirty thousand 
 families — that thus there was a priest, or a monk, or a 
 nun, for every six families in Rome — that thus there 
 was ample means for the education of the people, and I 
 asked therefore, whether the Church was not to blame 
 for this ignorance on the part of the people ? 
 
 He immediately turned from the subject, saying, that 
 the Church held the infallibility of the Pope ; to whom it 
 therefore belonged, to give the only infallible interpret 
 tation of the Scriptures. 
 
 This led the conversation in another direction. If I 
 had prevented this, it would have given me the appear- 
 ance of a partizan, as if I were more anxious to prove 
 and fasten a fault upon the Church of Rome, instead of 
 one who was searching for information, and was enter- 
 ing on a friendly rather than a controversial conversa- 
 tion. I allowed him therefore to lead me to the question 
 of infallibility, feeling that it was a subject which might 
 be turned to the advantage of truth. 
 
 I therefore remarked, somewhat carelessly in manner, 
 that I believed, or at least had heard, that there was 
 much difference of opinion in the Church of Rome, as 
 
1.36 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to the seat of infallibility— that I had heard of some 
 asserting it to reside in the Popes, — that others held it 
 resided in General Councils, while others still main- 
 tained, that infallibility was the exclusive possession of 
 the Church in general. I said that as far as I could 
 form a judgment upon such a subject, the preponderance 
 in the argument was in favor of those who claimed it 
 for the Popes — that generally all the various advocates 
 seemed to me to argue very powerfully, when disproving 
 the positions of their opponents, but became singularly 
 weak when endeavoring to establish their own ; but still I 
 thought the weight of argument was in favor of the Pope. 
 
 The professor, my opponent, seemed delighted with 
 this admission ; and seemed to take courage from it to 
 express himself very strongly, saying in the broadest 
 and clearest terms, that no man could be a true Catholic 
 — a true member of that Church, out of which there is 
 no salvation, who did not believe in the entire supre- 
 macy and infallibility of the Popes as successors of St. 
 Peter. 
 
 I replied that such a sentiment was by no means 
 universal — that it was so far from being held by the 
 Roman Catholics of England and Ireland, that they 
 would look on it as illiberal and untrue, — that they did 
 not hold it, and that no man in those countries would 
 assert that none could be saved unless in the Church of 
 Rome. 
 
 He said that it was impossible my statement could 
 be correct, as no man was a true Catholic, who thought 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 137 
 
 any one could find salvation out of the Church of Rome. 
 They could not be true Catholics. 
 
 I answered, that they seemed as zealous and as true 
 as others, and that there could be no mistake as to my 
 statement, for that some of the priests in England and 
 Ireland, had often in conversation with myself, denied 
 the doctrine of exclusive salvation ; and that I had 
 known some of the priests make the same statement in 
 the most public manner. 
 
 He again exclaimed, that it was impossible ; no true 
 Catholic could say so ; and if any one said it he was not 
 a true Catholic. 
 
 I repeated my words, adding that I had heard it too 
 often to be mistaken — that the people of England hated 
 exclusiveness, and bigotry, and narrowness of mind — 
 that the Roman Catholic priests when entering on con- 
 troversy, were therefore always anxious to disclaim all 
 notions of exclusive salvation for the Church of Rome ; 
 and that I had myself been repeatedly a witness to such 
 disclaimers, so that there could be no mistake. Whether 
 they were sincere in such disclaimers, it was not for me 
 to say ; but all those among them who aimed at any 
 popular influence always disclaimed it. One priest, a 
 Mr. Esmonde, whom I heard disclaiming it on a public 
 platform, was a member of the order of the Jesuits, and 
 therefore I suppose a true Catholic member of the 
 Church of Rome. 
 
 He again said with vehemence, that it was impossible ; 
 such persons were not true Catholics, and certainly were 
 
138 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 a great injury to the Church. The truth of the Church 
 was, that no man could be saved unless he was a mem- 
 ber of the Church of Rome, and believed in the supre- 
 macy and infallibility of the Popes, as the successors of 
 St. Peter. 
 
 I said that that was going very far indeed, for besides 
 requiring men to be members of the Church of Rome, 
 it required their belief in the supremacy and infallibility 
 of the Popes. 
 
 He reiterated the same sentiment in language still 
 stronger than before, adding that every one must be 
 damned in the flames of Hell, who did not believe in 
 the supremacy and infallibility of the Pope. 
 
 I could not but smile at all this, while I felt it derived 
 considerable importance from the position of the person 
 who uttered it. He was the chief teacher of Theology, 
 in the order of the Jesuits, and the chosen professor of 
 Theology, in the Collegio Romano — the university of 
 Rome. I smiled however, and reminded him, that his 
 words were consigning all the people of England to the 
 damnation of Hell. 
 
 He repeated his words emphatically, and with some 
 assumption of manner, as if he thought he could over- 
 awe or frighten me by the statement. He said that the 
 people of England would all certainly be damned eter- 
 nally in Hell, unless they embraced the doctrine of the 
 infallibility of the Pope. He looked at me with an air 
 of triumph. 
 
 " And what " said I, " what is to become of me ? I 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 139 
 
 do not hold, nor can I hold that doctrine ; and do you 
 consign me, and numbers of others like me, to everlasting 
 damnation, because I do not hold it ? " 
 
 He did not hesitate a moment in answering, that I 
 could not be saved, — that when once I had the oppor- 
 tunity and the power of hearing the truth, and being 
 informed of it, I could not be saved if I did not receive 
 it. But that if I had not the opportunity and power, 
 he could not speak so decisively. 
 
 I then looked at him with much seriousness, and 
 spoke with great deliberation, saying, that truth — the 
 truth of God was the great object of my researches, 
 and that I felt that the whole world was nothing in com- 
 parison with it — that I had read the Holy Scriptures 
 of God — that I had read the controversial writings of 
 Cardinal Bellarmine, Bossuet, and all the ablest con- 
 troversialists of the Church of Rome — that I had read 
 also the works of the ablest English writers in answer to 
 them — that for many years I had been seeking a mastery 
 over the intricacies of these questions— that I had come 
 to Rome to obtain a personal inspection of the Church 
 at its fountain-head — that I had many and long con- 
 ferences with several priests in Rome on the subject, 
 and that I was absolutely constrained, on a balance of 
 the arguments, not only not to believe but to reject 
 altogether the doctrine of the supremacy and infalli- 
 bility of the Pope, — that I therefore was one> who had 
 enjoyed every opportunity and power of adequate in- 
 formation on the point, and considering that I had 
 
140 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 arrived fairly and honestly, and to the best of my judg- 
 ment, and to the conviction of my conscience, at the 
 conclusion to reject this doctrine, I asked him whether 
 he would still consign me to the damnation of Hell ? I 
 spoke with a grave look, and in a solemn manner to 
 prevent trifling on so important a question. 
 
 He hesitated and said, that if I had indeed used all 
 possible diligence as I intimated ; and if I still found 
 my prejudices invincible — if I was still invincibly igno- 
 rant, he would not speak too decidedly. He was un- 
 willing to do so. The Church had made an exception 
 of such a case, but he hoped I should yet see and believe 
 it. His manner in all this shewed that his natural 
 courtesy alone prevented his declaring a decided judg- 
 ment. 
 
 I felt that quite enough had been said upon this 
 point; I had obtained the judgment of one professor 
 very clearly, and observed that the other professor did 
 not contradict him in the least ; so I suggested that we 
 should turn to some other subject. 
 
 He immediately proposed to me, to argue the ques- 
 tion of the possibility of salvation in the Church of 
 England, suggesting that as no one could be saved out 
 of the Church of Rome, he would prove that no one 
 could be saved in the Church of England ; asking me to 
 enter on the question, and undertaking on his part to 
 prove against me that the Church of England was not 
 the Church of Christ ; and that while I continued a 
 member of the Church of England, I could not be saved. 
 It was a formal challenge. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 141 
 
 I replied, that I could not assert that the Church of 
 England was the Church of Christ — that I believed and 
 held she was a part, a member, a branch of the Church 
 of Christ — that she held all necessary truth, and that 
 salvation was to be found within her, and that I was 
 prepared to maintain thus far but no farther. I could 
 not defend the proposition in the form in which he pro- 
 posed it. 
 
 He said that he would shape his argument so as to 
 embrace that view, and then, before he commenced, 
 we agreed that nothing should be asserted respecting 
 the doctrines of either Church, by either him or myself, 
 without producing the canon, or decree, or bull, or article 
 of the Church, containing it. He was not to claim for 
 the Church of Rome, nor to ascribe to the Church of 
 England, anything whatever, without producing the 
 authoritative canon of one Church, or the authoritative 
 article of the other. I was pledged in the same way, 
 and thus it was so arranged that there could be no rail- 
 ing accusations, no undue assertions, no claims on one 
 hand, or charges on the other, no assertions or denials, 
 as all was to proceed on the authoritative documents of 
 the respective Churches. I was careful to have this 
 settled between us before proceeding further, as I per- 
 ceived he was disposed to enter on the question, more 
 as a practiced and confident controversialist, than as a 
 sincere enquirer. He seemed a bold, lively, warm-hearted 
 man, experienced in the disputations of the college, 
 and confident in his own resources, and he seemed to 
 
142 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 have sought me rather in a youthful spirit of emulation, 
 and desire for a polemical tournament. He wished to 
 try his prowess and break a lance with me, and that too 
 in no unkindly or ungenerous spirit. I resolved there- 
 fore to meet him, so as to shew him that the argument 
 was not so clearly with him as he had imagined, and 
 that he might find in me his equal in argument,, though 
 certainly far from being his equal either in talent or 
 in learning. 
 
 He commenced according to the method, still prac- 
 ticed in the classes of the college, namely, arguing in 
 the form of a syllogism. He said — 
 
 The Church of Christ is infallible. 
 
 The Church of England confesses herself fallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is not the Church 
 of Christ. 
 
 I at once pointed out the fallacy or error of his argu- 
 ment, shewing as I had already stated, that the Church 
 of England did not pretend to be the Church of Christ, 
 but only a part or branch or member of it — and that 
 the fallibility of a part of the Church, was no proof she 
 was not a part of the Church, to which only, as a whole, 
 infallibility could belong. 
 
 He acknowledged this to be sufficient, and said he 
 would state his argument in another form. 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, is infallible. 
 
 The Protestant Church of England confesses herself 
 fallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is not a part of the 
 Church of Christ. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 143 
 
 I answered that the syllogism was as faulty as the 
 preceding one, but that I would at once meet it by de- 
 nying his minor ; that is, by denying that the Protes- 
 tant Church of England confesses }ierself to be fallible ; 
 I was not aware that she had made such a confession. 
 
 He laughed at me good-humoredly, and with a look 
 of triumph, and said that the Church of England had 
 confessed it, and he could produce the article. He 
 referred me to the Article XIX. 
 
 I produced the Article and read the words, " As the 
 Churches of Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch have 
 erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only 
 in their living and manner of ceremenies, but also in 
 matters of faith." I said that this Article of the Church 
 of England asserted that other Churches, and the 
 Church of Rome in particular, had erred, and were fal- 
 lible, but that she had said nothing of herself; and cer- 
 tainly had not, as his argument supposed and required, 
 confessed herself fallible. 
 
 He frankly acknowledged this to be a sufficient 
 answer, and that his argument had failed, but said he 
 would arrange his syllogism in another form, so as to 
 obviate this. He seemed however slightly — very slightly 
 annoyed, at finding himself so easily foiled in his first 
 two attempts. He proceeded with great quickness to 
 arrange his argument again. 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
 infallible. 
 
 The Protestant Church of England does not claim to 
 be infallible. 
 
144 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is not the Church 
 of Christ. 
 
 The ordinary mode of replying to this, would have 
 been by denying the major, namely, that the Church in 
 all its parts claimed to be infallible ; and this would 
 have opened the whole question of the infallibility of 
 the Church, whether as a whole in the Church general, 
 or in a part as the Church of England. I felt however 
 in my secret soul, that there was another mode of deal- 
 ing with it. I had in years long past pondered the 
 matter well and thoughtfully, and many years' experi- 
 ence and research alike confirmed my feeling. I had 
 never expressed it in private, nor had I employed it in 
 public ; and I thought that the present was an occasion 
 the most fitting possible to advance it. I knew that 
 my present controversy was with an able and learned 
 man, and not only so, but was with one of the most 
 influential Jesuits in Rome, assisted by another member 
 of the same order, profoundly versed in the Canon Law, 
 and therefore peculiarly competent to deal with my 
 argument. I felt therefore disposed to try it. I am free 
 to confess that I was somewhat nervous in advancing a 
 position so utterly untried, especially considering the 
 talents and learning of my opponents ; but I felt that 
 He, whose I was and whom I desired to serve, and who 
 had hitherto so wonderfully sustained me in many an 
 arduous struggle, would turn my success or failure to 
 some good account, by which His truth would be mani- 
 fested and his gospel glorified. So after some moments 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 145 
 
 pause for reflection, I requested my opponent to repeat 
 and kindly to write his syllogism on paper. 
 
 He wrote it as follows. 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
 infallible. 
 
 The Church of England does not claim to be in- 
 fallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is no part of the 
 Church of Christ. 
 
 Having read it carefully, I drew my pen over the 
 word "England," in the minor and in the conclusion, 
 and writing the word " Rome " in its stead, I returned 
 the paper as my answer. It was as follows — 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
 infallible. 
 
 The Church of Rome does not claim to be infallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of Rome is not part of the 
 Church of Christ. 
 
 On handing it to him in this altered form, I remarked 
 quietly that if his syllogism was legitimate as against 
 the Church of England, it must be equally legitimate 
 against the Church of Rome; and that therefore he 
 could not deny its conclusiveness. 
 
 The moment he read it he laughed heartily but good- 
 humouredly at me, and said that the Church of Rome 
 did claim infallibility ; and expressed surprise at my 
 minor, containing a statement so palpably incorrect, 
 and therefore so easily confuted. His companion joined 
 
 L 
 
146 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 him in his merriment, and they both seemed to rejoice 
 in a victory so easily and so completely gained. 
 
 I was in no other degree affected by this, than to feel 
 thankful that it gave me a little space to collect myself, 
 and to express my argument with precision ; I therefore 
 calmly reminded my friends, that the Church of Rome 
 had never on any occasion asserted her own infallibility ; 
 — that some of her members, and some of her advocates, 
 some of her individual divines had, without any authority 
 from her, claimed and asserted it for her and in her 
 name ; but that she had never in any form whatever, 
 either claimed or asserted it herself. 
 
 They replied with one voice, that the Church of 
 Rome had always and in all places claimed and asserted 
 her infallibility — that it was frequently done ; and so 
 well known and so universally recognised and admitted, 
 that they wondered how I could mean to question it. 
 They spoke with evident surprise, marvelling how I 
 could think of making so strange and unusual an asser- 
 tion ; and their surprise seemed so natural, that even 
 though they were Jesuits, I felt they were sincere. They 
 were really and truly surprised. 
 
 I answered with cool and deliberate words, shewing 
 by my manner, that I was conscious of the truth and 
 reality of my position, and that I could not be turned 
 from it by a laugh. I answered that there was no 
 Decree of any general Council — that there was no Bull 
 of any Pope — that there was no Canon or Article of an 
 authoritative nature in the Church of Rome, which 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 147 
 
 asserted or claimed infallibility for that Church. I re- 
 minded them, that this my statement was clear and 
 explicit, that it was of such a nature, that if it was un- 
 true or founded on an untruth, it could most easily be 
 confuted; and all they had to do was, that which I 
 now challenged them to do — to name the Decree of any 
 Council, or the Bull of any Pope, or the authoritative 
 Canon or Article, which claimed or asserted infallibility 
 for their Church. I added that the terms of our present 
 conference required, that as he claimed infallibility for his 
 Church, he should produce the authoritative document 
 asserting that claim, or he should at least state when 
 and where it was authoritatively asserted. 
 
 After some moments' pause, he said he could produce 
 several instances, and named the Council of Constance, 
 the Council of Basil, the Council of Florence, and several 
 other lesser authorities. I knew each of the decrees to 
 which he referred ; and therefore when he said that 
 one asserted the supremacy of the Church of Rome, as 
 the mother and mistress of all Churches ; and that ano- 
 ther held that every soul was subject to the Roman 
 Pontiff at the peril of his salvation ; and that others still 
 asserted, that every man must be obedient, and owed 
 obedience to the successor of St. Peter; and others 
 again that it belonged to the Church of Rome, to inter- 
 pret Holy Scripture — when he said all this, I reminded 
 him that all this was beside the real question — was 
 nothing to the real point before us — that my assertion 
 was, that no received Decree or Bull, or other authori- 
 
 l 2 
 
148 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 tative document of the Church of Rome claimed infalli- 
 bility, and that he answered me only, by producing 
 some which claimed supremacy and authority. 
 
 He said that supremacy and authority implied in- 
 fallibility. 
 
 I answered by an emphatic — No ! I said that in 
 England we felt that the law of the land was supreme 
 and authoritative — that we often felt that a specified law 
 was a bad law, — a mischievous law, a law that ought 
 never to have been enacted, and ought immediately to 
 be repealed; but bad and mischievous as we might 
 think it, we yet felt it was still the law of the land, and 
 was therefore possessed of a supremacy and authority 
 to which we are bound to yield obedience. But though 
 we ascribe to the law, and to the legislative power of 
 the nation, a supremacy and authority , we prove by our 
 efforts to repeal the obnoxious law, that we do not 
 ascribe infallibility to it. I then said that all the Decrees, 
 Bulls, Canons, &c. to which they referred me, only 
 asserted such a supremacy and authority, as demanded 
 the subjection and obedience of men to the Church of 
 Rome, or to the Pope as its head ; but not one of them 
 claimed or asserted infallibility for any party. 
 
 My opponent here did not deny the principle I had 
 thus laid down, but he seemed puzzled and perplexed, 
 at finding that all his documents failed in the precise 
 point of asserting infallibility. He referred to several 
 others, which he had not already named; but in a moment 
 after, he gave them up as inadequate ; all, when ex- 
 amined, were disposed of by my preceding answer. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 149 
 
 I shall never forget, while I live, the spectacle of 
 these two Jesuits, able, learned, and subtle as they were, 
 and long habituated to controversy, yet so completely 
 perplexed at this turn of the argument, as to be looking 
 at one another, and consulting and endeavoring to find 
 an answer sufficiently plausible. My opponent, the 
 reverend professor of Theology, seemed a little cast 
 down at first, but soon rallied and laughed at the 
 perplexity and singularity of his position. He laughed 
 good-naturedly, no longer at me but at himself, and 
 honestly said he had never seen the difficulty before — 
 that he had thought the point clearly settled, but that 
 it certainly was not so, — and that he could not see how 
 to answer me. 
 
 His companion, however, the reverend professor of 
 Canon Law, was not so good-humored on the occasion. 
 He was excited and annoyed at the failure, and asked 
 confidently and warmly — why it was that Protestants 
 were always charging the Church of Rome with arro- 
 gance and presumption and blasphemy, for claiming 
 infallibility, if, as would now appear from the argument, 
 she has never claimed it ; and why should it be made 
 by me and others like me, a ground of charge against 
 her, if we really believed she was not liable to that 
 charge ? And he asked somewhat warmly, whether my 
 habit of advancing this charge, was not a sufficient proof 
 that I believed that the Church of Rome really claimed 
 infallibility ? 
 
 I was unwilling to reply to this, in the warm spirit in 
 
150 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 which it was spoken, and I merely said that I had never 
 objected to the Church of Rome, that she had been 
 arrogant or presumptuous, or blasphemous in claiming 
 infallibility, or even that she ever claimed it or pre- 
 tended to it at all. I believed that, as a Church, she 
 never on any occasion whatever had advanced such a 
 claim ; I knew indeed that her advocates usually claimed 
 it for her ; and that her controversialists generally 
 asserted it for her ; and that the multitude imagined she 
 both claimed and possessed that divine prerogative ; but 
 I also knew that they were not the Church — that a 
 few learned advocates were not the Church — that a few 
 subtle controversialists were not the Church — that the 
 multitude of an ignorant people were not the Church — 
 and I knew also that the Church herself had never 
 claimed or asserted it. If I was wrong in this broad 
 statement, I was in presence of those who could easily 
 correct me. They could tell me when and where the 
 Church had claimed or asserted it. They could name 
 the Council and point to the Decree. They could de- 
 signate the Pope and point to the Bull. There never 
 was an assertion more easily confuted, if indeed it was 
 capable of being confuted at all. 
 
 They still asserted that the Church was infallible, and 
 claimed to be infallible, though they seemed in a quiet 
 way to acknowledge, that they could not further prove 
 their position. 
 
 I reminded them, that by the terms arranged for our 
 conference, they had no right to claim anything as a 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 151 
 
 doctrine of their Church, unless they could name or 
 produce the authoritative Decree, Bull, Canon, or 
 Article which asserted it ; and that on the present occa- 
 sion they assumed infallibility, as claimed and decreed 
 by the Church, but had altogether failed in adducing 
 the authority for their statement; and then I added, that 
 under those circumstances I had a right to argue, that 
 if a Church's not claiming to be infallible, was evidence 
 that it was not the Church of Christ, then the Church 
 of Rome, from the circumstance of this deficiency, could 
 not be any part of the Church of Christ j so I asked 
 them how they liked their own process of argument. 
 
 I must say in justice to both these gentlemen, that 
 they bore themselves with good temper, and Christian 
 good humor, in this trying and difficult position ; and 
 although at first they seemed to feel keenly, though 
 kindly, their difficulty, yet they joined us — the three 
 others who were present— in a laugh at the singularity, 
 and unexpected awkwardness of the position, in which 
 by their own process of argument they were placed. 
 
 Our conversation soon took a more general turn, and 
 did not revert to the main subject proposed for our con- 
 ference. We soon after separated. 
 
 When a short time afterwards we met again, it was 
 to consider whether the mass was a true and proper and 
 propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and the 
 dead, as stated in the canons of the council of Trent. 
 Our meeting was at the invitation of the reverend pro- 
 fessor of Dogmatic Theology, and our argument became 
 
J 52 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 unprofitable, and uninteresting to the unlearned, owing 
 to our time being spent chiefly on the question, whether 
 the words " ministering to the Lord," in Acts xiii. 2., 
 meant sacrificing or ministering in the ordinary sense of 
 the word. He asserted that it meant sacrificing in the 
 strictness of that word. I maintained that the word was 
 in several places in Scripture applied, even to secular 
 magistrates, whose work and office did not imply or 
 involve the idea of sacrifice. He acknowledged this, 
 but stated that my argument applied only to the word 
 " ministering," whereas his argument was that the 
 words " ministering to the Lord" had another meaning, 
 and involved the idea of offering sacrifice. 
 
 We soon after parted, and it never was my good 
 fortune to have the pleasure of again meeting the pro- 
 fessor of Theology — except when, on hearing of my ap- 
 proaching departure from Rome, he came to bid me 
 farewell. I was much pleased by his manner, and gra- 
 tified by his kindness. He spoke with earnestness, and 
 1 replied with some words of warm feeling and Christian 
 anxiety. I trust that our meeting and our parting were 
 not without profit to us both. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 153 
 
 CHAPTER VI. 
 
 CONVERSATION WITH THE PROFESSOR OP CANON LAW — THE FETE AT THE 
 JESUITS' CHURCH, CLOSING THE YEAR — THE QUESTION OF INFALLIBILITY 
 RESIDING IN A COUNCIL OR IN A POPE — SEVEN SIGNS OR TESTS BY WHICH 
 TO DISCERN WHEN THE POPE IS INFALLIBLE AND WHEN FALLIBLE — 
 THE ALLEGED UNSUITABLENESS OF THE SCRIPTURES AS A RULE OF FAITH 
 — THE SAME ARGUMENT APPLIED TO THE PAPAL DECISIONS. 
 
 The prospect of an elaborate conference with the reve- 
 rend professor of Canon Law in the Collegio Romano, 
 was one of considerable interest to me. It had been 
 promised, that he should be informed of my anxiety for 
 information as to the means or test by which I should 
 be enable to ascertain an infallible Bull from a fallible 
 one — to know a Pope pronouncing infallibly from one 
 pronouncing fallibly — to distinguish a decision ex cathe- 
 dra, from one non ex cathedra. The point was one of 
 no inconsiderable interest, and I felt no little pleasure in 
 the anticipation of entering on it, with one who was so 
 competent to deal with it — one who, from his learning, 
 
154 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 could state all that could best be offered on the question, 
 and at the same time one, who from his position in the 
 college, would add certain authority to his statements. 
 This professor was a Jesuit, one of the ablest and most 
 accomplished of his order, and certainly one of the most 
 elegant and most accomplished at Rome. I should have 
 felt somewhat nervous at the prospect of this conversation, 
 were it not that I had already had the good fortune of 
 making his agreeable acquaintance : and that the point 
 to be considered, was one in which all the difficulties 
 of argument would necessarily be on his side. 
 
 The professor came on the appointed day, accom- 
 panied as usual by a lay-brother, and dressed in all the 
 peculiar costume of the order of Jesuits. 
 
 Our conversation commenced, by my thanking him 
 for his kindness, in having made such gratifying arrange- 
 ments to enable my wife and myself and one of our 
 friends, to witness the fete at the Church of Gesu, which 
 belongs to the order. It was a fete celebrated on the 
 last day of the year. His Holiness the Pope had ar- 
 ranged to attend and to sing the Te Deum, as an act of 
 public thanksgiving, on the part of the Head of the 
 Church on earth, for the blessings and mercies of the 
 year that was then passing away for ever. He attended 
 in state. He was accompanied by the Cardinals. The 
 Swiss guards were arranged to preserve order. The 
 congregation, which w r as chiefly English, was large. We 
 were conducted by one of the Order, through a passage 
 within the wall of the Church, by which we entered a 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 155 
 
 small apartment, and were then led through a series of 
 chambers, apparently those of a convent, till we were 
 placed in a small gallery in the best possible position 
 for observing all, while we were ourselves beyond the 
 observation of any. As seen from this position, nothing 
 could surpass the picturesque beauty of the spectacle, 
 especially at the moment of the elevation of the Host. 
 The choir or chancel, with the High Altar, was splen- 
 didly illuminated. The High Priest, and his assistants, 
 were before the altar in their most magnificent robes. 
 Twelve youths from the College of the Propaganda 
 Fide, formed two lines connecting the corners or horns 
 of the altar with the rails of the chancel. They were 
 clothed entirely from head to foot in scarlet, and held 
 gigantic candles of wax in their hands. Those candles 
 were about five feet long, and not less than five or six 
 inches in circumference ; and as the priest proceeded 
 with the prayer of consecration, they all knelt still and 
 motionless as marble statues ; and as the priest elevated 
 the Host they all gracefully drooped their heads, and 
 slowly leaned forward their kneeling bodies till, they 
 almost touched the ground, and bent their large candles 
 all at the same instant, and with the most practised regu- 
 larity, till every candle seemed to bow in unison like 
 things of life, in devout adoration to the present and 
 visible divinity. As the eye wandered at this moment, 
 from our little gallery, whence we could view the whole 
 space of the Church — as it ranged from the splendid 
 illumination of the High Altar, and rested on the offi- 
 
156 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 dating priest in robes of white silk, damasked with the 
 richest foliage of gold, and then fell upon the twelve 
 youths in scarlet, bowing gracefully to the earth with 
 their gigantic candles, and then fell upon the aged 
 Pontiff, the claimant as Vicar of Christ, and anointed 
 Head of the Church on earth, and then looked on the 
 long array of Cardinals, those anointed princes of the 
 Church, robed entirely in scarlet, and then strayed 
 along the congregation, of which the ladies were clothed 
 in black and veiled, and the men were mostly in the 
 same color, while the Swiss guards were arranged 
 among them, relieving the mass of black costume, with 
 the brilliant scarlet and yellow of their peculiar and 
 antique uniform — as our eyes wandered over all this 
 scene in this magnificent and noble Church, with its 
 antique marbles and costly decorations, and its vaulted 
 roof was filled with the sweetest and most beauteous 
 music, we felt that we had never witnessed an} r thing at 
 Rome, in the way of a religious fete so perfect in its 
 arrangements, so picturesque in its appearance, and in 
 such good taste and perfect keeping in all its accom- 
 paniments. It was the perfection of a religious spec- 
 tacle, and exhibited the good taste and the worldly 
 wisdom of the order of the Jesuits. 
 
 We had great reason to thank some members of the 
 order for their arrangements in our favor. The only 
 persons similarly favored on this occasion, were an Italian 
 princess and her companion, who alone shared with us 
 the privacy and the advantage of this little gallery. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 157 
 
 Whatever were their motives for this kindness — and in 
 truth they were scarcely concealed, seeing that the 
 Cardinal Vicar had offered a mass with the intention 
 to move God to facilitate our conversion — it shewed a 
 nice disposition on their part, and gave to us on this, as 
 on some other occasions, increased facilities for observa- 
 tion. We thanked the professor, as the courtesy and 
 kindness of some of his friends of the order deserved, at 
 our hands. 
 
 My wife expressed her thanks in better terms than I 
 could command, at the same time giving lively utterance 
 to the gratification derived from the ceremony, as a 
 beautiful spectacle ; and saying that its beauty was such, 
 and that there was so much of the picturesque in the 
 coup d'ceil, that if transferred to canvas, it would make 
 a most attractive picture, — that there was exceeding 
 beauty as well as solemnity in it. 
 
 He observed in return, that it certainly was a beauti- 
 ful and most charming sight to any one, but that it was 
 much more so to those, who like himself viewed the 
 Pope and the assembled Cardinals, as the head and re- 
 presentatives of the Catholic Church— the whole Church 
 of God, and who looked on the beautiful spectacle, as 
 the act of the Church of Jesus Christ singing their Te 
 Deum, in praise and thankfulness, for all the mercies 
 and goodness they had received during the departing 
 year. 
 
 We said that we could quite understand the feeling 
 in which he had viewed it, and which he had so appro- 
 
158 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 priately expressed — and that we fully appreciated that 
 feeling, especially as we had understood that such was 
 the nature and object of the ceremonial, as designed by 
 those who had taken part in the spectacle. However 
 we might differ from him, as to the details of the cere- 
 monial or ritual portion of the spectacle, we were sure 
 to agree with him, as to the christian duty and privilege 
 of public thanksgiving for mercies received. If we could 
 not agree with him in the details, we could certainly 
 agree with him in the spirit of the act. 
 
 Our conversation then turned to my previous meeting 
 
 with our mutual friend, the reverend Signor . I stated 
 
 that he had given me much useful and important infor- 
 mation, of which previously I was not in possession — that 
 in reference to the worship of the Virgin Mary, he 
 had stated matters of considerable interest — and that 
 we had a long and deeply interesting conversation, on 
 the all-important subject of infallibility — on the necessity 
 for its existence and on the place or seat of its existence ; 
 and that, supposing infallibility to exist either in a coun- 
 cil or in a pope, I was disposed to go with him in think- 
 ing, that if it existed in either, the weight of argument 
 seemed to preponderate in favor of the Pope. 
 
 He was much pleased at this admission on my part, 
 and expressed himself as if he had understood me to 
 state absolutely, my belief in the existence of infallibility 
 in the Pope. He said I had admitted, that the pre- 
 ponderance of argument was with that opinion. 
 
 I reminded him that my observations were only on 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 159 
 
 the supposition, that such infallibilty did really exist in 
 either a council or a pope, but that the reverend Signor 
 
 had by no means satisfied me, that it really existed 
 
 in either the one or the other. But I could freely say 
 that, assuming it to exist in either a council or a pope, 
 my judgment was in favor of the pope ; and my reason 
 was, that all parties on this particular point, were fond 
 of adverting to the words of our Lord to Peter — " Thou 
 art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, 
 and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." All 
 those in the Church of Rome, who claimed infallibility 
 for that Church, appeared to base it on these words, 
 and on the words (C Feed my sheep," and " Feed my 
 lambs," which seem spoken to Peter, and to have con- 
 nection with Peter ; and therefore they appeared to me 
 to prove the infallibility of the popes, as successors of 
 Peter, much more naturally than the infallibility of 
 councils, which are not in any way connected with these 
 words. I said that I could not adopt the Roman Catho- 
 lic interpretation of the passage concerning the rock, 
 because I thought that our Lord meant to convey that 
 He built his Church on the fact, that He was the Son of 
 God as confessed by Peter, and not on Peter at all ; 
 but that, on the supposition of the Roman Catholic in- 
 terpretation being correct, namely that the words re- 
 ferred to Peter, I thought that if the words involved 
 infallibility, they involved the infallibility of Peter, and 
 his successors the popes, rather than the infallibility of 
 councils. 
 
160 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 The professor, as a member of the order of Jesuits — • 
 for that order hold universally at Rome, the very loftiest 
 claims and pretensions to infallibility, on the part of the 
 popes, as contradistinguished from those who hold that 
 the infallibility belongs to the general councils — shewed 
 evident pleasure at my statement, and he appeared by 
 his sparkling eye and joyous look, to think that if I was 
 not already a proselyte to his Church, I was at least in 
 a fair way for such a result, and that it remained for 
 him to conduct me to the final goal. He expressed 
 himself as greatly gratified with my views upon the 
 subject, and with the conclusion at which I had arrived. 
 
 I said that the difficulty between the reverend Signor 
 
 and myself, arose from his pressing me much to join 
 
 the Church of Rome, to abandon the Church of England, 
 and to fling aside all my difficulties and objections, 
 whether of mind or feeling, against the Church of Rome ; 
 to fling them all aside, and no longer doubting, debating 
 or arguing, to throw them on the responsibility of the 
 infallible tribunal, which had infallibly decided them. 
 I added that in reply to this request on the part of our 
 friend, I had asked him whether he could tell me, sup- 
 posing infallibility to reside in the pope, how I could be 
 enabled to judge with infallible certainty, when the 
 pope decided ex cathedra, and when he decided non ex 
 cathedra — when he was infallible and when fallible. I 
 said that this was necessary, inasmuch as different popes 
 had issued different and opposing bulls — that our mutual 
 friend, the reverend Signor had expressed himself as 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 161 
 
 unable to explain the matter fully, and had promised 
 that the professor himself should explain it to me. 
 
 He replied that the pope was infallible — that it be- 
 longed to him as the successor of St. Peter, to be the 
 head of that Church, which was to be so founded and 
 protected, that the gates of Hell should never prevail 
 against it — that our Lord's promise in these words 
 secured that this Church should be infallible — that this 
 favored and privileged Church, was the Holy and Catho- 
 lic Church of Rome, whose first bishop was St. Peter, 
 and whose successive bishops, as the successors of St. 
 Peter, were the infallible interpreters and expounders 
 of her doctrines, the vicars of Christ, and the infallible 
 heads of the Church. 
 
 I said in reply to a great deal that fell from the pro- 
 fessor upon this point, that the question at issue between 
 
 the reverend Signor and myself, was not whether 
 
 the popes were infallible, but how and by what means 
 I could discern a fallible decision from an infallible one. 
 I reminded the professor, that he was of course aware 
 that the popes were not always — were not at all times, 
 and under all circumstances, infallible — that pope Libe- 
 rius had avowed Arianism, and that pope Honorius was 
 a Monothelite, and that as popes were not exempt from 
 the worst of heresies, as these two examples demon- 
 strated, so the real difficulty was to find some certain 
 test by which to know when a pope was fallible, and 
 when he was infallible. 
 
 He answered in a tone and with a manner, that 
 
 M 
 
162 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 seemed, as I thought at the moment, to betray a shade 
 of annoyance at my pointed allusion to Liberius and 
 Honorius. He said however, that Liberius was acting 
 under restraint, and that he was not a free agent when 
 he avowed the heresy of the Arians, and that therefore 
 such avowal was not to be regarded as his real opinions. 
 He said also that Honorius was thought too mild and 
 lax in not punishing the Monothelites, and that it was 
 on account of this that he was called a Monothelite, and 
 not on account of his holding their heresy. He con- 
 cluded by saying, that if either of these popes had pro- 
 ceeded to decide anything ex cathedra, the decision 
 would then have been infallible. 
 
 I replied, that my reading of the histories of Libe- 
 rius and Honorius compelled me to adopt a very dif- 
 ferent opinion as to the orthodoxy of these popes — that 
 I was fully convinced that one of them was really an 
 Arian, and that the other was as really a Monothelite — 
 that I was aware that the order of Jesuits, as the sup- 
 porters of Papal infallibility, had advanced the state- 
 ments which the professor had just expressed, in order 
 to save, if possible, the infallibility of these two popes, 
 but that I felt that they had failed ; as all history was 
 clearly against them. However, I continued, your own 
 view shews that they acted and gave their decisions 
 under undue constraint, or under a misplaced lenity ; 
 and therefore your own view shews, that the popes are 
 not at all times and under all circumstances infallible. 
 
 This the professor hesitated to acknowledge. It was 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 163 
 
 more in his manner than in his matter. He merely said 
 that when the Pope uttered his decision ex cathedra, 
 there could be no doubt of the infallibility of the de- 
 cision. This at once conducted our conversation to the 
 precise point, which I felt most anxious to open, and I 
 saw that there could be no difficulty in entering on it, 
 but I desired much to do so without any appearance of 
 a controversial spirit on my part. I was anxious to stand 
 in his eyes as one looking for information and open to 
 conviction, rather than as one disposed to controvert and 
 impugn his statements ; and I was really most desirous 
 of learning the very point now before us, as I had never 
 yet been able to find anything on the subject, in the 
 writings of any divines of any Church. It was a subject 
 altogether new to me, and I feared that any preliminary 
 conversation might awaken suspicions or doubts in his 
 mind, which might prevent him being as communicative 
 as my object required ; and now, as on many another 
 occasion during these conferences, I felt fully the neces- 
 sity of turning in secret prayer to Him, whom I desired 
 to serve, that He might give me the power to restrain 
 my naturally controversial temper, and the wisdom and 
 the spirit to speak as became me. I felt nervous and 
 diffident of myself, perhaps more than I ought, when I 
 found myself under circumstances that prevented my 
 speaking as plainly and as strongly as I otherwise 
 might, lest I should appear as a controversialist, rather 
 than as an enquirer ; and especially when I felt myself 
 in the presence of men, whom I had learned to regard, 
 
 m 2 
 
164 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 whether rightly or wrongly, as the most able, the most 
 learned, and most subtle controversialists of the Church 
 of Rome. The result did not always justify my fears, 
 but those fears led me to look more frequently for the 
 guidance and the wisdom of Him, " from whom cometh 
 down every good and every perfect gift." 
 
 I said, that supposing the pope to be infallible when- 
 ever he uttered a decision or issued a bull ex cathedrd, 
 it was still necessary to know how we were to ascertain a 
 decision ex cathedra, from a decision non ex cathedrd, — 
 how, amidst the volumes of opposite and conflicting 
 bulls of different popes, we were to know an infallible 
 bull from a fallible one, or, as persons in England usually 
 express it, how are we to ascertain when a pope is 
 infallible, and when he is fallible. 
 
 He at once met the difficulty, and said that it was of 
 very easy solution. He stated that there were certain 
 requisites, certain essentials, which were "characteristic 
 of a bull ex cathedra, and without which it could not be 
 received as ex cathedrd, and that these characteristics 
 were very easily ascertained. He added, that these re- 
 quisites or essentials were seven in number, and that he 
 feared to weary me by their detail, but that otherwise 
 he would be happy to enter on them. 
 
 I did not fail to express with all fitting courtesy, my 
 wishes that he would continue so interesting a detail, 
 and I expressed the obligations I should feel for such 
 valuable information, especially as, coming from one 
 holding his important position at Rome, it could not 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 165 
 
 but possess much of authority in my eyes, and would be 
 sure to possess the same in the eyes of others. 
 
 Ke then proceeded to state, that there was no real 
 difficulty in ascertaining, when and under what circum- 
 stances the decision of the pope was to be received as 
 infallible : that there were certain requisites or essen- 
 tials ; and that the presence or absence of these would 
 be an adequate test by which to ascertain the point : 
 that these requisites or essentials were seven in number, 
 and were all very clear and very easy to be found. He 
 then described them in detail. 
 
 I. It was necessary in the first place, that before 
 composing and issuing the bull, the pope should have 
 opened a communication with the bishops of the univer- 
 sal Church — that in such communication he should ask 
 their prayers to the Almighty, that the Holy Spirit 
 might fully and infallibly guide him so as to make his 
 decision, the decision of inspiration. He added that by 
 thus previously asking the prayers of the bishops, he 
 would obtain the prayers of the universal Church for 
 Divine assistance, before he proceeded to form or publish 
 his decision. 
 
 I asked him how, seeing that there was a necessity 
 for this previous communication on the part of the pope 
 with the bishops — how I was to inform myself, that this 
 requisite or essential had really been borne in mind. 
 He merely replied, that it was very easy to be ascer- 
 tained, and then proceeded to the second particular. 
 
 II. It was necessary in the second place, that before 
 
166 . MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 issuing the bull containing his decision, the pope should 
 carefully seek all possible and desirable information, 
 touching the special matter which was under considera- 
 tion, and which was to be the subject of his decision. 
 And that he should be specially careful to possess him- 
 self of all available information from those persons, who 
 were residing in the district affected by the opinion 
 called in question, and who were found faithful in that 
 district, that so the pope might have all the requisite 
 information for an infallible decision, from the very 
 district in which the opinion, on which the decision was 
 sought, had its origin or its existence. 
 
 I asked in reference to this — how I was to be assured 
 that the pope was thus rightly and fully informed — that 
 he had sought and obtained the required information, 
 and was thus capacitated for proceeding to issue the 
 bull. He replied as before, that there was not the 
 least difficulty in ascertaining this, and so passed on to 
 the third particular. 
 
 III. He said that a further requisite or essential was, 
 that the bull should not only be formal, but should be 
 authoritative, and should claim to be authoritative : 
 that it should be issued not merely as the opinion or 
 judgment of the pope, in his mere personal capacity, 
 but as the decisive and authoritative judgment of one, 
 who was the Head of that Church, which was the mother 
 and mistress of all Churches, to whom all Christians 
 owed subjection and allegiance, and who was the living 
 voice of infallibility, and who as such, had the power 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME, 167 
 
 and the authority, to pronounce infallibly the decision 
 required. 
 
 I remarked, that this requisite could be easily ascer- 
 tained, as it must necessarily appear on the face of the 
 bull, the only difficulty being to obtain a true copy 
 of the bull. He then stated the fourth particular. 
 
 IV. It was again necessary, that the bull should be 
 promulgated universally ; that is, that the bull should 
 be addressed to all the bishops of the universal church, 
 in order that through them its decisions might be de- 
 livered and made known to all the members or subjects 
 of the whole Church. The pope was the fountain-head 
 of all episcopal jurisdiction, so as that there can be 
 no episcopal jurisdiction but from the pope; and as 
 episcopacy is the only channel through which every 
 grace flows to the Church, so it is necessary that the 
 bull, containing the decision of the pope, be addressed 
 to all the bishops of the universal Church. 
 
 I observed on this point, that the superscription or 
 title of the bull, would at once show whether this essen- 
 tial was forthcoming, and I begged the reverend professor 
 to proceed. He then passed on to the fifth requisite. 
 
 V. He stated that another essential was, that the 
 bull should be universally received ; that is, should be 
 accepted by all the bishops of the whole Church, and 
 accepted by them as an authoritative and infallible de- 
 cision — that, after promulgation by the pope, it should 
 be accepted and promulgated by all the bishops as 
 authoritative and infallible, or at least should be simply 
 
168 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 accepted by them without formal promulgation, or even 
 tacitly permitted by them without opposition, which is 
 held to be a sufficient acceptance in a legal sense. 
 
 I said that this was a point very difficult to be ascertain- 
 ed. I knew not of any thing more difficult to ascertain with 
 satisfaction, than whether any given bull was received 
 and promulgated, or simply received without promulga- 
 tion, or only permitted without opposition in any given 
 country. Some are received in Spain, which are rejected 
 in France; and some are received in France, which are 
 rejected in England and Ireland ; and some are rejected 
 in all these, and yet are said to be accepted in Italy ; 
 and the assertions made on all sides upon this fact were 
 so contradictory, that I knew nothing so difficult to be 
 ascertained to satisfaction. It opens out a prodigious 
 sphere of inquiry and disputation. He smiled, and 
 assured me there was not the least difficulty, and went 
 on to the sixth particular. 
 
 VI. Another characteristic, he said, was of immense 
 importance, indeed more absolutely essential than any 
 he had as yet named, viz. The matter or question, 
 upon which the decision was to be made, and which was 
 therefore to be the subject-matter of the bull, must be 
 one touching faith or morals, that is, it must concern 
 the purity of faith, or the morality of actions. And 
 this necessity arose from the fact, that faith and morality 
 are the matters upon which infallibility was designed to 
 be exercised, and for the preservation of which this 
 infallibility was given to the Head of the Church. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 169 
 
 I remarked that this was very reasonable, and that I 
 fully acquiesced in it ; but that an opinion prevailed very 
 generally in England, that the Church of Rome had 
 strained " faith " and " morality," to include all matters 
 of fact, even matters of history, whenever they seemed 
 to bear upon any question of " faith " or " morality ;" — 
 that this was practically illustrated in the celebrated 
 controversy between the Jesuits and the Jansenists, 
 where the point at issue was the mere matter of fact, 
 whether the opinions condemned by both parties, were 
 really contained in a specified book. I said that a 
 difficulty might arise in prosecuting our enquiries, as to 
 whether this essential was there. He seemed a little 
 annoyed at this allusion, so I begged he would be so kind 
 as to proceed to the seventh particular. 
 
 VII. This was the last of the series. He said it 
 was essential in the last place, that the pope should be 
 free — perfectly free from all exterior influence, so as to 
 be under no exterior compulsion or constraint. He 
 stated that the bull or decision of pope Liberius pos- 
 sessed the other essentials, but that this one was want- 
 ing. That pope had acted under compulsion — under a 
 fear of his life, and therefore as he was not free, his 
 decision could not be regarded as ex cathedra. That 
 bull thus issued was full of error. The pope therefore 
 must be free from external influence or constraint, in 
 order to his decision being received as infallible. 
 
 On this I remarked quietly, that it would be very 
 difficult for me or for any one in England, to ascertain 
 
170 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to anything like moral certainty, whether the pope at 
 the issuing of any bull was really under exterior influ- 
 ence, or whether he was perfectly free. I did not see 
 how it was possible to have certainty on such a point. 
 He said as before, that there was no real difficulty in this 
 or in any of the tests he had specified, and merely added 
 that these several essentials or requisites, were the tests 
 by which any bull was to be tried. If they existed, 
 then the Bull was ex cathedra, and was to be received 
 as infallible ; but if any of them were wanting, then the 
 bull was not ex cathedra, and could not be recognised 
 otherwise than as fallible. 
 
 I felt exceedingly interested in all this detail. It 
 was the first time I had ever heard of any means by 
 which to test the existence of infallibility. 
 
 Hitherto various bulls and decrees had frequently 
 been cited, and often one was asserted to be infallible and 
 authoritative, and another fallible and rejected. One 
 pope with his decisions were urged on one side, and 
 another pope with his bulls were cited on the opposite ; 
 and between conflicting bulls and opposite decisions, 
 and one bull rescinding a former one, and one decision 
 reversing a preceding one ; and amidst all this conflict 
 and confusion, I had never seen or read or heard of any 
 means, by which I could learn when a pope was fallible 
 and when he was infallible. I therefore felt considera- 
 bly interested in the details of the reverend professor 
 of Canon Law, and thanked him warmly for the infor- 
 mation he had imparted to me. I asked however several 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 171 
 
 questions, anxiously avoiding the appearance of unne- 
 cessary cavilling or captiousness, and putting them with 
 the manner of one who rather sought further information. 
 My questions referred to the difficulty which persons 
 like myself, resident in England, would experience before 
 they could ascertain whether the pope had asked for the 
 prayers of the universal Church — whether he had sought 
 and obtained the requisite information — whether his bull 
 was really received and promulgated universally, &c; and 
 I suggested that it was quite possible that other persons 
 in England, simple and unlearned men, unacquainted 
 with such subjects, and wholly unable to obtain infor- 
 mation on them, might feel these enquiries not only 
 difficult but absolutely impossible, and in any case alto- 
 gether uncertain and unsatisfactory. I suggested also 
 yet further, that if there was difficulty in ascertaining 
 all these minute particulars, in reference to any bull 
 that might be issued at the present day, the difficulty 
 must be enhanced a thousand-fold, when the enquiry 
 concerned some bull that had been issued some centu- 
 ries ago. It becomes not only a moral but even an 
 absolute impossibility, for ordinary men to carry out the 
 enquiry to any satisfactory result. 
 
 He replied, that all that was necessary for any man 
 in such cases was to go to his bishop — ask the bishop 
 respecting the bull in question — and the bishop would 
 inform him whether it was ex cathedra or otherwise. 
 Nothing could be easier. 
 
 I said that though certainly nothing could be easier 
 
172 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 than such a course, yet that I apprehended that nothing 
 could be more unsatisfactory to an English mind. It 
 proposed to leave the whole question of the fallibility or 
 infallibility of any given decision to the word of a 
 bishop, who was himself fallible and might be mistaken, 
 both as to the fact and as to the meaning of the bull. 
 It was not usual in England — it did not suit the charac- 
 ter of the English mind, to refer the decision of such 
 historical facts as the pope's freedom from influence — 
 the reception of his bulls, &c, to the mere opinion of a 
 bishop. Men there would be very apt to think them- 
 selves quite as good judges as to the matter of fact. 
 
 He said that the bishop was the legitimate channel 
 for all communications from the pope as the Head of 
 the Church and Vicar of Christ ; and all doubts would 
 at once be removed from the minds of humble and sin- 
 cere men, if they referred it to the bishop. 
 
 I replied that it would suggest itself to most minds, 
 that such a course was merely placing all their faith and 
 hope of salvation on the word of a bishop, a man like 
 themselves and admitted to be fallible. And I added, 
 that from my knowledge of the English mind and habit 
 of thinking, men in England — men of common sense and 
 ordinary judgment, in most things would prefer turning 
 to the Holy Scriptures, and judging for themselves. It 
 would be a most difficult thing to alter their habit in 
 this particular. They would prefer comparing the bull 
 with the Holy Scriptures, and thus learning not the 
 opinion of the bishop, who was but a man, but the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 173 
 
 judgment of God in his own word, for so they habi- 
 tually regarded the Holy Scriptures. 
 
 He laughed at me for this, and said that an appeal 
 to the Scriptures was absurd and impossible. It might 
 all be very well comparatively for men like himself and 
 me, who were well read and well versed in sacred lite- 
 rature ; but it was quite otherwise with men in general, 
 and especially with humble and illiterate or ignorant 
 men, in fact with the great mass of mankind. For, he 
 argued with a tone of great confidence, his whole face 
 lighted up with the expression of conscious triumph, 
 the Holy Scriptures are a volume that requires many 
 preliminary enquiries before it can be received. In the 
 first place, it will be necessary for the man to ascertain 
 the authenticity of every separate book, or portion of 
 the volume. In the next place, it will be necessary for 
 him to prove the divine inspiration of every part of it. 
 In the third place, the book is written in dead languages, 
 and the man must know how to understand them or 
 have them translated. In the fourth place, it is a 
 volume that has given rise to different meanings or in- 
 terpretations, and the man should be able to judge upon 
 these. All these he argued, are preliminary enquiries, 
 which are absolutely necessary to be made ; and as the 
 poor and ignorant man, the ordinary man, is incapable 
 of making them and judging on them, so the Holy 
 Scriptures can never be a fitting volume for such a man 
 to appeal to in matters of religion. 
 
 At this point of our conversation, where he seemed 
 
174 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 most confident and apparently conscious of a triumph 
 over me, as if he thought no answer could be returned 
 to his argument, I felt that he had given me a prodigious 
 advantage, of which he was wholly unaware. It was the 
 very position in which I had wished to place him, and I 
 could not have led him into a line of argument more 
 suited to my purpose. I felt in my soul, that the Lord 
 had delivered him into my hands, and could not but 
 render my thanksgiving in secret to Him, who gave me 
 the opportunity of dealing effectually with this matter ; 
 and I inwardly prayed that I might be cool and collected, 
 and effective in my reply. I hoped most fervently, that 
 it might have some effect upon his mind. 
 
 I began by stating, that while my own opinion on 
 the point was a matter of unimportance, yet I appre- 
 hended his method of argument would be met in Eng- 
 land in a very effective way, at least in such a way as I 
 should be unable to answer, unless he informed me 
 further than he had as yet done. I said that the most 
 ordinary and common-place men in England, would say, 
 that if they forsook the volume of the Holy Scriptures, 
 for the volume of the papal bulls — that if they ex- 
 changed the Bible for the Bullarium, they could gain 
 no advantage thereby ; for if, as he had said, there was 
 a necessity for a man to ascertain the authenticity of 
 each book in the Holy Scriptures, before he could avail 
 himself of it, then it was no less true that it was equally 
 necessary for a man to ascertain the much questioned 
 authenticity of each bull in the Bullarium — that if, as 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 175 
 
 he had alleged, the man must be carefully informed by 
 study on the inspiration of the sacred volume, before 
 receiving it as his Divine teacher, there will exist a simi- 
 lar necessity for his being informed by study on the 
 disputed infallibility of the papal Bullarium, before re- 
 ceiving it as his infallible instructor ; — that if, as he had 
 averred, the Holy Scriptures were written in the dead 
 languages, and a man must learn to translate them 
 before using them, the very same may be averred against 
 the papal bulls, which also are all written in a dead 
 language, and a man must learn to translate them before 
 appealing to them ; — that if, as he had argued, the Holy 
 Scriptures have been variously interpreted by various 
 men, and all this variety must be resolved by every 
 man before he makes the sacred volume his guide, it 
 might in like manner be argued that the papal bulls 
 have been variously explained, some received and some 
 rejected by a vast variety of persons, and men must be 
 able to decide on all these varying interpretations of 
 bulls, before accepting them as an infallible guide — in 
 short it would be argued, — fairly argued, by men of no 
 pretension to anything but the possession of common 
 sense, that every objection he urged against the volume 
 of the Holy Scripture, was liable to be urged against 
 the volume of the papal bulls. They were written in 
 a dead language. They were the subject of various in- 
 terpretations. They were the source of endless con- 
 troversies. Their number and names were doubtful. 
 Their title to infallibility was questioned. All men dis- 
 
176 . MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 puted as to which was fallible and which infallible. 
 Some bulls were directly contradictory of others ; some 
 actually and by name were condemnatory of others ; 
 some were admitted on all hands to be erroneous and 
 heretical ; and the whole combined, constituted a series 
 of volumes, almost as extended as a library, and there- 
 fore wholly inaccessible to the masses of a Christian 
 population. They could never become the guide of a 
 Christian people, and to this day have never yet been 
 translated into the language of any Christian Church. 
 While the Holy Scriptures on the other hand were 
 universally translated, were small in size, convenient 
 for reference, and incomparably more easy to be read, 
 studied and understood, than the endless intricacies and 
 scholastic niceties of the Bullarium. I said that men 
 in England would argue thus, and would feel that they 
 should lose rather than gain by exchanging their Bible 
 for the Bullarium — the Holy Scriptures for the papal 
 bulls. 
 
 I perceived that the countenance of the reverend 
 professor was undergoing a change. It betrayed im- 
 patience and irritation. He looked rather angrily upon 
 me - } but I was resolved to persevere, though in terms 
 and in manner as kindly as possible, speaking as if I 
 was stating the probable objections of others rather than 
 my own. I transferred the argument from myself to 
 others, and expressed myself as enquiring how I should 
 be able to answer such objections if advanced by others. 
 
 I therefore suggested that his argument on the sub- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 177 
 
 ject of the papal Bulls — that his seven requisites or 
 essentials by which a bull is to be tested before it is 
 recognised as ex cathedra or infallible, seemed liable to 
 the objection, that few — very few men indeed could pos- 
 sibly ascertain the existence of these tests. With all 
 the learning of the reverend professor himself, and with 
 what little reading I possessed myself, I yet feared that 
 insuperable difficulties would lie in our way ; and how 
 much more fairly might a simple mechanic or peasant 
 in England object that he knew nothing, and could 
 know nothing, about the Bullarium, with its twenty or 
 thirty folio volumes of scholastic matter in the Latin 
 language — that he could never ascertain whether these 
 seven requisites or essentials were present or absent — 
 that it would be impossible for him to learn satisfac- 
 torily, whether pope Boniface, or pope Hildebrand, or 
 pope Gregory, before issuing any Bull, had sought the 
 prayers of the universal Church — that it would be hope- 
 less for him to attempt to ascertain whether they had 
 sought and obtained all necessary information, in the 
 districts supposed to be most affected by the question 
 under consideration — that no effort that could be made 
 could assure him of the universal acceptance or promul- 
 gation of the bull, on the part of all the bishops of the 
 universal Church. Thus an unlettered man in England, 
 might fairly argue that, if it were necessary to enter on 
 all these enquiries, cumbrous, difficult and impossible 
 as they were, before he could be assured of the legality 
 and infallibility of each bull, there could then be no 
 
 N 
 
J 78 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 possibility of his getting even one step towards infalli- 
 bility ; and such a man seemed to me able to object with 
 much force, that if he was asked to abandon his Pro- 
 testant principles, and to embrace Roman views — to 
 exchange his faith in the Holy Scriptures for a faith in 
 the papal bulls — to build his confidence and hope no 
 longer on the inspiration of the Bible, but on the in- 
 fallibility of the Bullarium — that it was only involving 
 himself in a series of questions which he could never 
 solve, and encumbering himself unnecessarily with all 
 the difficulties of these seven tests, — all the subtleties in- 
 volved in the question of infallibility — all the disputes 
 as to whether that infallibility existed in the popes or 
 in the councils ; in short in a most cumbrous and diffi- 
 cult system : when, remaining in the principles of Pro- 
 testantism, he had the Bible — the word of God — in his 
 hands, a volume of easy access, a volume with whose 
 language he was familiar from childhood, a volume that 
 required practically no extent of human learning to 
 understand for all practical purposes in this life — in 
 short, a facile and convenient rule of life and faith, 
 which, as being inspired of God was necessarily infallible. 
 I suggested that any simple and unlettered man in 
 England might so argue, and the argument seemed to 
 me to involve a powerful objection ; one that required 
 an answer ; and I asked the professor whether he could 
 supply me with such an answer. 
 
 The whole manner of my reverend friend exhibited 
 his sense of the difficulty. He seemed to me to feel that 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 179 
 
 his argument recoiled on himself; not having perceived 
 that, while he had imagined his seven tests were over- 
 powering my scruples, they were really so many stum- 
 bling-blocks in the way. It had not, I must confess, a 
 favorable impression on his manner, as he seemed to 
 feel irritation at being foiled, rather than disposed to 
 give the argument due weight in his own mind. Nor 
 would I have pressed it so far, only that I felt it my 
 duty to lay the difficulty fairly and fully before him, that 
 it might, by that influence which is not the less potent 
 because it is unseen, work its own way in his mind, 
 when time and opportunity might afford it further con- 
 sideration. 
 
 He only said in reply, that he thought all these diffi- 
 culties would be removed by referring to the bishop, 
 whose decision should be final. He would at once say, 
 which bulls were fallible and which infallible, or rather 
 which were ex cathedra, and which non ex cathedra. 
 It appertained to the office of the bishop to do so. 
 
 I said it might, and very probably would be objected 
 by some minds to this, that the bishops of France gave 
 an answer different from the bishops of Italy on these 
 bulls ; that on one side of the Alps certain bulls are 
 pronounced infallible, which at the other side of the 
 same Alps are held to be fallible ; and therefore that a 
 reference to the bishop, could not be sufficient to satisfy 
 some thinking men ; at least I could not answer for the 
 people of Italy, but certainly such a system could never 
 satisfy the thinking and judging people of England. 
 
 N 2 
 
180 ■ MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 They habitually enquired and judged for themselves, 
 and never would leave such a matter of fact to the de- 
 cision of the bishop. 
 
 He argued, that I ought not to refer to the difference 
 of the French and Italian bishops, on the subject of 
 infallibility — that it was a very favorite system of argu- 
 ing among the English writers, but that it was really 
 of no importance, for the Church was one — was at unity, 
 and that I should find that the religion of France was 
 identical with the religion of Italy, so that however 
 differing on the point of infallibility, they were one and 
 united on every thing else. 
 
 I said that I apprehended we could not agree on that 
 point, as I thought there were other particulars on which 
 the difference was equally marked. 
 
 Our conversation soon took another turn. I felt that 
 enough had been said by me, and that the subject — the 
 special subject of our conference was sufficiently opened. 
 I therefore allowed him to lead away to other and more 
 general topics. As my wife was almost always present, 
 there was great facility for this whenever it was de- 
 sirable. We were all soon conversing on a variety of 
 points connected with the external aspect and form of 
 religion at Rome ; and the professor and we parted, 
 with expressions of mutual gratification in forming 
 an acquaintance, which promised to be profitable and 
 improving, as connected with our eternal interests. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 18] 
 
 CHAPTER VII. 
 
 OPINIONS ENTERTAINED AT ROME RESPECTING THE MOVEMENT IN THE 
 ANGLICAN CHURCH — THE BISHOP OF EXETER AND OTHERS AT OXFORD — 
 CAUTION AGAINST ROMANS INTERMEDDLING WITH THE CHURCH OF ENG- 
 LAND — SEPARATION OF THE TEMPORAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL POWER 
 OF THE POPES — ARGUMENT DERIVED FROM THE SUCCESS OF THE 
 MISSIONS OF THE CHURCH OF ROME — AN INDIAN TRIBE CONVERTED — 
 THEIR HOLY LIVES — WONDERFUL MIRACLE — CREDULITY PREVALENT AT 
 ROME — INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN TWO DOCTRINES OF THAT CHURCH — 
 TRANSUBSTANTIATION AND THE MASS — THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION — 
 HUMAN MERIT — INDULGENCES. 
 
 The movement among certain gentlemen at Oxford 
 furnished a frequent subject of conversation among my 
 reverend friends of the order of Jesus. It was evi- 
 dently a source of the largest anticipation, and there were 
 moments when nothing seemed too extravagant in the 
 way of hope as a result from it. It was generally looked 
 on as the beginning of the conversion of England, and 
 many an eye brightened, and many a cheek flushed in 
 triumphant expectation of her return to the arms of 
 Rome. The remarkable letter or rescript of the Car- 
 dinal-Vicar appointing a novena, that is, a nine days 
 
182 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 service, and promising a plenary indulgence, that is, 
 a complete exemption from purgatory and immediate 
 admission into paradise after death, to all who took part 
 in this Novena, praying for the extirpation of heresy, 
 the exaltation of the Church, and the conversion of 
 England to the Church of Rome — this remarkable docu- 
 ment had not yet been issued, but hopes were high, 
 conversations were frequent, and confidence was un- 
 bounded on the subject ; and masses were offered for 
 the conversion of individuals, for whom a peculiar interest 
 was felt. 
 
 The volume by Mr. Ward on the ideal of a Church, 
 which had been published in England a short time be- 
 fore, had found entrance into Rome. It was sent to me 
 by one of my reverend friends of the Collegio Romano ; 
 and when he came shortly afterwards, his mind seemed 
 full of the subject of the Anglican Church — its present 
 state and its future destinies. We were not likely to 
 agree on such a subject. As usual his companion re- 
 mained silent and took no part in the conversation. 
 
 He expressed himself in strong terms against the 
 Anglican bishops, for having set themselves against the 
 principles and practices proposed to be introduced by 
 the gentlemen at Oxford. He stated that they had 
 shewn their opposition, and although he regarded their 
 opposition as likely to fail in the end, yet they had 
 sufficiently shewn their feeling, and proved that nothing 
 was to be expected from them. He selected, however, 
 and excepted the bishop of Exeter, and it seemed as if 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 183 
 
 no language of hatred and scorn combined, could be too 
 strong to express his feelings respecting him. He said 
 in a rather exaggerating way, that the main body of the 
 most learned and influential of the heads of houses, pro- 
 fessors, and tutors at Oxford, were sufficiently well dis- 
 posed to a union with Rome — that the vast portion of 
 the rural clergy were inclined to glide over in the same 
 direction — that the great majority of the younger clergy, 
 fresh from the university, were over-zealous in the matter, 
 almost requiring restraint — that many of the aristocracy 
 and gentry, educated at the universities, were prepared 
 and wishing for the change ; and that while all minds 
 were thus directed to a great and grand object, one 
 worthy of the thoughts of a whole people — while the 
 mind of England, and England's Church, was forsaking 
 the principles and ideas of centuries, and now turning 
 to tradition and to the fathers — while the whole learn- 
 ing, and feeling, and yearning, and hope of the clergy 
 of the Anglican Church, was towards a return to the 
 bosom of their Holy mother the Church of Rome, and 
 sighing for Catholic unity — this high and holy feeling, 
 this onward and noble feeling was marred, and turned 
 aside by the littleness of the bishop of Exeter. That 
 bishop he stated, had raised a question about black 
 gowns and white surplices — a question of such paltry in- 
 significance and contemptible littleness — and by evoking 
 a host of enemies, and raising a hurricane of opposition, 
 turned all minds from the right direction, from the grand 
 subject, from the great object of true religion, and the 
 
184 . MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 right Church, and unity, and tradition, and all that was 
 truly precious, and likely to effect a glorious work; and 
 turned all minds to such anile trifling, as a dispute about 
 gowns and surplices. He had promised much, and no 
 doubt intended much, but b}' his littleness, and by his 
 energy and talent in turning little things into great 
 things, he had strengthened the hands of his opponents, 
 and utterly marred for a time the very work in which 
 he had himself been one of the most active and useful 
 labourers. A noble work was thus provokingly marred 
 by the imprudence and indiscretion of one of its parti- 
 zans, and no language was too strong to apply to him. 
 He dealt sharply too with the bishop of London. 
 
 All this and much more of the same nature, fell from 
 my reverend friend respecting the bishop of Exeter. 
 He shewed considerable heat, which seemed to me to 
 argue that the Jesuits at Rome were much annoyed 
 and disappointed at seeing the turn that things were 
 taking in England. It was not for me to undertake any 
 defence of either the bishop of Exeter, or the bishop of 
 London. 
 
 My friend soon turned to Mr. Newman and Dr. 
 Pusey, and stated that he felt they were doing a glorious 
 work, in impregnating the mind of the students of the 
 university, and especially the young clergy, with Catholic 
 principles. It was a subject of unmixed thankfulness, 
 that such doctrines should be so openly avowed and 
 taught in the very university of the Anglican Church, 
 after three centuries of suppression and silence ; and it 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 185 
 
 was impossible that the movement — the impetus which it 
 gave to the progress of Catholic truth, could fail to end 
 in the final triumph of the Church of Rome. It might be 
 checked or turned aside for a short time, but must soon 
 return to its main channel, and move on irresistibly to 
 its great destiny. It was impossible that Mr. Newman, 
 Dr. Pusey, Mr. Ward and other leaders could remain 
 where they were. They had gone so far that the}' must 
 necessarily go farther, and when they entered the Church 
 of Rome, they would be followed by the greater part of 
 the Anglican Church. They could not honestly remain 
 as they were.* 
 
 I said that I quite felt with him, that these persons 
 could not honestly remain in the Church of England ; 
 and that they were bound, holding the principles which 
 they possessed, to join the Church of Rome : — that if I 
 myself held their principles, I should do so : — but that 
 many persons felt a difficulty in justifying themselves to 
 their own consciences, in leaving the Church of their 
 own accord, without being compelled to do so by the 
 authorities of the Church ; and it was possible some of 
 these persons might be influenced to remain from this 
 feeling. 
 
 He said that such a feeling was very excusable, 
 where there was not a decided difference of opinion and 
 principle on essentials ; but there was a line somewhere. 
 As long as they kept within that line, they might indeed 
 
 * As the time of this conversation, Mr. Ward, and Mr. Newman, had not 
 openly joined the Church of Rome. 
 
186 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 remain, but when once they had gone beyond it — when 
 once they renounced or abandoned the essential princi- 
 ples of one Church, and adopted the essential principles 
 of the other — then to remain was not consistent, not 
 honest, and this was the case of these persons. He 
 said, they had passed the line, and he should be greatly 
 disappointed if any of them remained as they were. It 
 would not be honest — or becoming the honesty of Chris- 
 tian men, to remain in the Church of England. 
 
 I gave my full assent to this, adding that I was sure 
 he would not be disappointed, and that all these gentle- 
 men would ultimately join the Church of Rome. 
 
 He then panegyrised in very glowing terms, the con- 
 duct and talent of Mr. "Ward, and spoke in the most 
 triumphant tone of the approaching fall of the Church 
 of England — that it was an event for which God was 
 to be thanked, especially as it seemed to be His doing ; 
 as being a movement which sprung up spontaneously in 
 the heart of the Anglican Church herself. It did not 
 originate with Rome, though of course she watched it 
 anxiously, and assisted it to the utmost of her power ; 
 and, he added, smiling expressively, she has power, 
 and we shall soon see England with us again. 
 
 I said in return, that they would be wise to let Eng- 
 land alone, and in no way to intermeddle with her State, 
 or her Church. It might possibly lead to England in- 
 termeddling with Rome. 
 
 He asked me what I meant. 
 
 I replied, that the people of England did not like to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 187 
 
 be interfered with, and might be disposed to resent it. 
 I then said boldly to him, that I was fully aware that a 
 large portion of the people of the Roman states were 
 anxious to separate the ecclesiastical authority of the 
 pope, from the civil sovereignty — that they desired to 
 leave the Pope as the spiritual head of the Catholic 
 Church ; but, as far as I could learn their sentiments, 
 they were desirous to divest him of his temporal sove- 
 reignty — that they had expressed themselves in very 
 many instances, speaking freely to me as a stranger and 
 as an Englishman loving free institutions, as anxious 
 that the Pope should be reduced simply to the state of 
 a christian bishop, ruling the Church as such, but by 
 no means ruling the state as a temporal sovereign — that 
 this feeling seemed to me so general that all that was 
 required was, that some bold man should lift the standard 
 of revolution, and that the people would follow. 
 
 He smiled and asked how this, supposing it to be 
 true, could affect the question as concerning the A.nglican 
 Church. 
 
 I answered, that if Rome interfered too much with 
 the Church in England, perhaps England might inter- 
 fere a little with the Church at Rome— that there was 
 a powerful sentiment, an enthusiastic feeling for Pro- 
 testantism, and an unhesitating hatred of Romanism, 
 among a large portion of the people of England ; and if 
 these persons were once roused, they might evoke pub- 
 lic feeling — subscribe large funds — influence the govern- 
 ment — and encourage those Italians, and especially 
 
188 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 those Romans who desired to raise the standard of revo- 
 lution at Rome, and thus separate the temporal from 
 the spiritual power of the pope. It were wise therefore, 
 not to intermeddle too much with the Church of England. 
 This elicited a display of irritation and anger for 
 which I was scarcely prepared. I felt however that I 
 was speaking on good authority ; as the feeling to which 
 I referred was general among some of the most respec- 
 table of the citizens of Rome — that it was shared by 
 some of the most influential persons, and by a very large 
 portion of the tradesmen — that they all spoke with 
 especial dislike and hatred of the order of Jesuits, saying, 
 that as sure as any Jesuit was permitted to enter any 
 house, there was as surely destined to follow in his wake 
 a series of family disputes, so as that there could be no 
 peace in any family into which they were admitted — 
 that in consequence of this there was a growing feeling 
 at Rome, against not only the order of Jesuits, but 
 against the monks of every other order — that this feel- 
 ing was extending itself rapidly against all ecclesiastical 
 government, and especially against ecclesiastics holding 
 government appointments, and conducting the temporal 
 and civil affairs of the state, — that the whole body of the 
 laity, excluded as they were from all important, influ- 
 ential and lucrative offices, were dissatisfied with such 
 exclusion, and were predisposed to any revolution which, 
 by excluding ecclesiastics, and confining them to spiri- 
 tual matters, might lay open all the civil offices of the 
 state to the fair and honorable ambition of the laity. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 189 
 
 Feeling all this, and knowing that my reverend friend 
 must be well aware of it, I could not be much sur- 
 prised, that he felt angered or irritated at the use which 
 I made of it, namely, as a warning to him and his 
 friends among the Jesuits, not to interfere too much in 
 the affairs of the Church or State of England. 
 
 I felt that a change in the subject of our conversation 
 was desirable, as there was neither information nor 
 profit to be derived from the political aspect of Rome, 
 nor from the opinions entertained at Rome, respecting 
 the state of the Church of England; and therefore when 
 he said in a tone of triumph, that the Church of Eng- 
 land must soon fall utterly to ruin and pass away for 
 ever, or unite herself to the Church of Rome, I was 
 glad of the opportunity it afforded for changing the 
 subject of conversation. It led to some statements 
 among the most remarkable I had yet heard. 
 
 In arguing for the Church of Rome, and against the 
 Church of England, he stated that providence was 
 every day setting the seal of testimony to the former, 
 and withholding it from the latter. He said that this 
 was peculiarly visible in the department of missions ; for 
 that, while the missionary labors of the Church of Eng- 
 land, notwithstanding the commanding influence and 
 wealth of England, were without any success that de- 
 served the name, the preaching of the missionaries of 
 the Church of Rome had met with the most wonderful 
 successes — that the multitudes of heathen, who were 
 converted of late years, were beyond expression ; and 
 
190 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that from every quarter of the globe, the information 
 received was of the same happy and triumphant charac- 
 ter. The great God of Christianity was manifesting 
 his advocacy of His own cause, by giving the most ample 
 success to the missionary labors of His own Church ; 
 and this he continued, was an evidence and proof of His 
 favor and love to the Church of Rome, which elevated 
 her above the Church of England, and was so abundant 
 that ere long the whole heathen world must bow to the 
 truth and embrace the Church of Rome. 
 
 I replied that I had not much faith in the statements 
 sometimes put forth on the subject of missions. I men- 
 tioned the narrative of a friend of my own, who was 
 witness to the conversion of a whole tribe of American 
 Indians. He told me the whole tribe marched down to 
 a river, and that the Roman Catholic priest without a 
 word of instruction, sprinkled water on every one in the 
 usual form ; and that he then hung a little cross by a 
 string around the neck of each, and telling them they 
 were now Christians, he left them. My friend told me 
 that the Indians departed precisely as they came — heard 
 no preaching — received no instruction — exhibited no 
 sign of Christianity — made no profession of any faith — 
 and departed precisely as they came, as naked, as savage, 
 as wild and as ignorant and heathen, with this only dif- 
 ference, that each had a little cross suspended around 
 his neck ! I added that I fully believed the statement of 
 my informant, who would not deceive me, and that I 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 191 
 
 did not see how the Church of Rome could triumph 
 much in such alleged conversions. 
 
 His answer to this was very striking, as shewing a 
 degree of credulity which I could never have anticipated. 
 
 He said that I was altogether mistaken, in doubting 
 the reality of these conversions — that it was in this that 
 the interposition of God was so clearly manifested — that 
 those conversions partook very much of the miraculous 
 in their nature, at least could not be accounted for, often, 
 unless on the principle of a divine miracle. It was the 
 great and good God setting his seal to the work of his 
 own Church. These very Indians, heathen and savage 
 as they had been, were real converts ; and the proofs of 
 the reality of their conversion are undoubted and con- 
 vincing: so much so, that after the missionary had left 
 them — after he had remained absent from them for two 
 years — after they had been left without farther instruc- 
 tion of any kind beyond the memory of his teaching — 
 after he returned to his missionary station at the close 
 of these two years, and was again among these very 
 Indians, he of course, as was his duty, required of them 
 to come to confession — & confess their sins that they 
 might receive absolution ; he was agreeably surprised and 
 indeed over-joyed, to find that not one of them had any 
 sins to confess ! My friend went on to explain, that 
 there was no matter for the sacrament of penance, as 
 during these two years the Indians lived such converted 
 lives, such holy and christian lives, that there was not 
 one among them who had committed a single sin, and 
 
192 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 therefore had no sin to confess, and the missionary 
 priest was unable to confer absolution, inasmuch as there 
 was no matter for the sacrament ! 
 
 I could not but be surprised at such a statement, and 
 wondered in my own mind, whether my reverend friend 
 himself believed it ; and yet there was all the look and 
 stamp of earnestness and truthfulness in the man. He 
 seemed to believe it fully, and therefore, as unwilling to 
 wound his feelings, I merely suggested that the Indians 
 having no sin to confess, might have arisen from their 
 not knowing their sins — from their not knowing that 
 those customs, vices, immoralities, cruelties and idola- 
 tries, which they were constantly committing, were really 
 sins — in short they were so ignorant of christian truth, 
 and so left without religious instruction, that they were 
 unconscious of sin, and therefore confessed no sin. I said 
 that I could not otherwise understand his statement, 
 because the best and wisest and holiest christians that 
 ever lived, were conscious of sin ; and that if those 
 Indians were really converted, they must have been 
 conscious of sin ; and to suppose them otherwise must 
 imply that they were wholly unconverted. 
 
 This suggestion he rejected and flung from him at 
 once, and he eagerly added that the very missionary was 
 now at Rome — that he had just returned from America, 
 and was at the Collegio Romano, where he had himself 
 heard him narrate the facts ; and as a proof beyond 
 question of the reality of the conversions, and the holi- 
 ness of the Indians, he mentioned what he called a most 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 193 
 
 wonderful miracle that had occurred, when the mission- 
 ary was administering the holy communion to them. 
 He was holding the host in his fingers thus — my friend 
 suiting the action to the word — and as the poor Indian 
 was too far from him, the missionary priest could not 
 place the host in his mouth : the poor humble devout 
 Indian knelt so far away that the priest could not reach 
 him, and- — here my reverend friend lifted his hands in 
 an attitude of awe, looked devoutly to heaven, and then 
 earnestly and solemnly addressed me — the host flew 
 out of his fingers, flew over to the poor Indian, and 
 flew into his mouth ! " Oh ! ,; he added, in a tone of the 
 most reverential devotion, " the blessed Lord Jesus so 
 loved that poor savage, that he longed to enter into his 
 heart, and thus miraculously flew into his mouth ! How 
 anxious he was to get into him ! " 
 
 I could no longer doubt the sincerity of this priest. 
 There was a fervor, an earnestness, a devotion of manner, 
 that shewed he fully believed what he thus narrated ; 
 and the personal character of the man was such that I 
 had no right to doubt him after so solemn a statement. 
 He narrated it as a miracle wrought by God in behalf 
 of the Church of Rome. He mentioned it as illustra- 
 ting the blessing of God upon the missions of that 
 Church. He, believing that the age of miracles is not 
 yet passed, but that miracles are still constantly work- 
 ing, imagined that his narrative would be credited by 
 me. But it only proved to my mind, that the missionary 
 priest had wickedly invented the story to exalt and 
 
 o 
 
194 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 magnify his own labors, and was now telling it among 
 his brother Jesuits of the Collegio Romano, that such 
 of them as were simple and credulous and superstitious 
 enough to believe it, might spread it through the world, 
 as a new testimony of God to the Church of Rome. 
 My reverend friend evidently believed it, and expected 
 that I should believe it. 
 
 I shall never forget this portion of our conversation. 
 It was a practical confutation of those — and I must 
 confess I was myself once among the number — who sup- 
 pose that the Romish priests are all infidels — that the 
 simple and superstitious and ignorant may perhaps 
 believe what they are taught; but that the talented and 
 educated are infidel as to some of the doctrines which 
 they inculcate. I am fully persuaded that, while this 
 may be true of some, it is not true of many whose ac- 
 quaintance I was enabled to make during my residence 
 at Rome. They were educated, learned, astute and 
 talented men, and yet they believed things contrary to 
 all experience, reason and revelation. The reverend 
 Jesuit, who made to me the communication respecting 
 these Indians, was one of the most polished and educated 
 men at Rome. He was conversant with the entire range 
 of European literature. He spoke English, German, 
 and French, with almost the same facility as his native 
 Italian; and was as learned and astute as a man might 
 be expected to be, who was selected for a professorship 
 in the principal educational establishment of the order 
 of Jesuits at Rome. He fully believed, and expected 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 195 
 
 me to believe his narrative. This certainly is a phase 
 of mind not very intelligible in England ; but when it is 
 considered that these men are brought up from child- 
 hood in certain principles — that they are taught tobelieve 
 implicitly everything which the Church is said to teach 
 — that they never see the Holy Scriptures, which might 
 call in question the principles which they are thus taught 
 — that believing miracles are still as constantly wrought 
 as in the days of the Apostles — that looking on every 
 doubt in the mind as a horrid infidelity to be hated and 
 loathed, as the source of every woe here and hereafter — 
 that being thus habituated to receive implicitly every- 
 thing that seems to come in conformity with the Church, 
 their minds are in a different train, and act on a differ- 
 ent principle altogether, and they must not be judged by 
 the same rules as might hold among us, whose minds 
 are so differently constituted and trained. I am fully 
 convinced that in supposing all these men — however it 
 may be with some — to be secretly infidels, we do them 
 the greatest injustice. I am satisfied that multitudes 
 among them believe, with the fullest and most implicit 
 faith, the dogmas of their Church ; and therefore, instead 
 of regarding them as the hypocrites and monsters of 
 deception and wickedness, which such a supposition 
 implies, I regard them as melancholy evidences of the 
 fall of human nature, and sad monuments of the ship- 
 wreck of the human judgment, evidencing to the world 
 that no reach of human intellect, and no grasp of mental 
 genius, and no range of this world's learning, can bring the 
 
 o 2 
 
196 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 true and saving knowledge of God to the mind or heart 
 of man. The record may be a saddening one, but it is 
 true : " The world by wisdom knew not God." 
 
 It was impossible my reverend friend could fail to 
 observe my incredulity, both as to the sinless state of 
 the Indian converts, and as to the wonderful miracle of 
 the consecrated wafer or host. I could not believe them, 
 and I felt I ought not to leave him under the possible 
 impression that I did believe them. I expressed my 
 feeling in the most kindly and courteous terms, being 
 very unwilling to give unnecessary pain or offence ; but 
 I let him clearly understand that I had read and heard 
 enough of the missions, to hold a very decided opinion 
 as to the argument often drawn from them. I added 
 that I believed that the real difference between the 
 missionary results of the two Churches was this — that 
 the Church of Rome was generally satisfied with an out- 
 ward conformity, or rather an outward profession, how- 
 ever little the practice might be ; looking forward to the 
 opportunities which such conformity or profession se- 
 cured in reference to the rising generation ; while on the 
 other hand the Church of England almost universally 
 required the manifestation of a converted mind and re- 
 generated nature ; disregarding in a measure all the 
 worldly considerations of expediency, or value of ex- 
 ternal profession. I added yet farther, that under such 
 circumstances I was prepared to expect even greater 
 appearance of success under the system of Rome ; but, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 197 
 
 on the other hand far more of reality and spiritual life 
 under the system of England. 
 
 After a little further conversation on the subject of 
 missions, and the success said to be attendant upon them 
 — after he had made some allusions to the success of the 
 Jesuits in China, to which I replied by referring to the 
 Bull of Pope Ganganelli, condemning the compliances 
 of the Jesuits in that empire — after this, my friend still 
 urged that the Church of England was inclining to her 
 ruin ; and that I should be obliged ere long to leave 
 her, and that after all I should be necessitated to join 
 the Church of Rome. 
 
 I said that I was fully convinced in my sou], that a 
 Church which, like that of England, honored the word 
 of God, the Holy Scriptures, so as to make them the 
 sole rule of faith in things necessary to salvation, and 
 which held so much precious truth, would never be 
 abandoned by God. He had blessed her hitherto to 
 the salvation of millions, and I had no fears for her per- 
 manence ; but at all events I had not seen any reason 
 to suppose I could join myself to the Church of Rome. 
 She had too frequently erred in things of the greatest 
 importance. 
 
 He replied that God promised to be for ever with his 
 Church — that his Church was founded on St. Peter — 
 that that Church was the Catholic or Roman Church — 
 that by the promise of Christ it was infallible ; and that 
 I should find it impossible to prove her to have failed in 
 any particular. He went on upon this subject at some 
 
198 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 length, in a way very usual among the advocates of the 
 Roman Church, and asked me to prove that she had 
 erred in anything. 
 
 I answered that as he would probably defend as a 
 truth, anything I should object as an error, that I did 
 not see clearly how I could convince him, unless indeed 
 I could prove an absolute contradiction of one doctrine 
 to another. I said this with the view of leading to this 
 very subject. 
 
 He said that that would be an objection worth hear- 
 ing, and seemed to challenge me to the proof. 
 
 Fully expecting this, I replied by saying that I be- 
 lieved there were some very decided and positive con- 
 tradictions, in the system of doctrines received by the 
 Church of Rome ; and if it were not drawing too much 
 on his patience, I would endeavor to specify an instance, 
 and perhaps he might be able to remove the apparent 
 inconsistency by explanation. But, I added, while such 
 inconsistencies or contradictions remained unexplained, 
 it was impossible to recognise the infallibility of his 
 Church; and though I had presented the difficulty to 
 many eminent men for solution, I had never been so 
 fortunate as to find even an attempt at explanation. 
 
 I then called his attention to the fact, that the sacri- 
 fice of the mass is called " an unbloody sacrifice ;" that 
 when Protestants object, that if the sacrifice of the mass 
 be indeed identical with the sacrifice of Christ on the 
 cross, then this daily sacrificing of Christ must be asource 
 of daily suffering to Christ : — for, as the Apostle Paul 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 199 
 
 says, " He was not to offer himself often, for then he 
 must have suffered often since the foundation of the 
 world :" — when Protestants object, that if the sacrifice of 
 the mass be often offered, according to the system of 
 the Church of Rome, then the sufferings of Christ must 
 be often repeated, according to the words of the Apostle 
 — when Protestants object this, it is always answered 
 that there are no sufferings, because there is only M an 
 unbloody sacrifice," and that in the sacrifice of the mass, 
 Christ is offered only in " an unbloody manner." It is 
 therefore expressly stated in the Canons of the Council 
 of Trent, that the mass is an " unbloody sacrifice," and 
 all the catechisms of the Church of Rome distinctly 
 assert, that it is " an unbloody offering ;" and all en- 
 deavor to obviate the objection of Protestants, by saying 
 that Christ is offered in the mass in " an unbloody 
 manner," 
 
 He assented to this, stating that such was the doctrine 
 of the mass, that Christ was offered as a propitiatory sa- 
 crifice for the living and the dead, in the mass, and that 
 there could be no pain or suffering to him, though truly, 
 literally, substantially present in the host as the victim, 
 because he was offered in " an unbloody manner." It 
 was " an unbloody sacrifice," and therefore it gave no 
 pain like that on Calvary ; and he asked me where there 
 was any contradiction or inconsistency ? 
 
 I replied, that I had only stated one half my subject. 
 The other half remained to be told, which was this — 
 that the dogma of Transubstantiation, as defined by the 
 
200 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Council of Trent, and held universally in the Churcn 
 of Rome, taught that the bread and wine of the com- 
 munion were truly, literally, substantially changed, so 
 as that their whole substance was changed into the sub- 
 stance of " the body, and blood, and soul, and divinity " 
 of Jesus Christ. According to this doctrine the sub- 
 stance of wine is annihilated, and the substance of blood 
 substituted in its stead, so as that all is no longer wine 
 but bloody truly, literally, substantially blood. In the 
 offering therefore of this there is bloody a bloody offering, 
 and in the sacrifice of this there is blood, a bloody sacri- 
 fice ; and there is no point of doctrine in the whole 
 system of the Church of Rome, on which she usually 
 makes so determined a stand as this assertion, that after 
 the words of consecration the elements become flesh and 
 blood, and thus the inconsistency or contradiction to 
 which I refer is this — her teaching in one moment, 
 that in the mass the sacrifice is an unbloody one, and in 
 the next moment, that it is transubstantiated into blood ; 
 so that in one doctrine all is blood, and in the other 
 all is unbloody I 
 
 My friend made no attempt at concealing, that he 
 had never observed this before, but he was silent as if 
 revolving it in his mind. He continued so long without 
 replying, that I asked him whether he clearly under- 
 stood me, and saw the point which I urged. He said 
 fairly that he saw it — that it charged the Church with 
 using the argument both ways and in opposite directions, 
 asserting that there was blood, or teaching that there 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 201 
 
 was no blood, just as suited her purpose. He added 
 very honestly, after a long time for consideration, that he 
 had never heard the difficulty before — that it struck him 
 as very curious — that he did not see just then how to 
 answer it ; but that he would make it his business to 
 consult a certain Lecturer then in their College, and 
 also their Professor, to whom such questions belonged ; 
 and that after consulting them he would communicate 
 to me their opinions. 
 
 [When next I had the pleasure of meeting him, it 
 was at the Collegio Romano, where we walked and 
 talked a long time together ; but though he stated he 
 had consulted the parties referred to, I was unable to 
 get any intelligible explanation of the inconsistency 
 which I had urged, nor indeed have I ever heard it 
 explained by any one, to whom I have objected it.] 
 
 On reverting to our original point, namely, his state- 
 ment that the Anglican Church was hastening to her 
 fall, and that I should be necessitated to embrace the 
 Church of Rome, a variety of topics were touched on, 
 and among them the doctrine ' of the immaculate con- 
 ception ; on this he expressed himself as believing that 
 the Virgin Mary, the Prophet Jeremiah, and John the 
 Baptist, had all been born without original sin. 
 
 My wife remarked that she could not believe this, for 
 that the Virgin Mary recognised Christ as her Saviour, 
 which implied herself a sinner — that the writings of the 
 prophet Jeremiah were full of acknowledgments of sin 
 — that the Baptist certainly was without all claim to so 
 
202 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 peculiar an exemption, and she was opening the Bible 
 to shew the places to which she referred. 
 
 He said that the doctrine was founded on the words 
 of Scripture — that there could be no question as to the 
 immaculate conception of the most Holy Virgin, and 
 therefore her freedom from original sin ; and that in 
 reference to Jeremiah and the Baptist, it was expressly 
 stated that they were " sanctified from the womb," 
 implying that in their original conception in the womb, 
 they were immaculate, and as such exempt from original 
 sin. 
 
 I could not forbear smiling at such a frail foundation 
 for such a doctrine, and reminded him that the word 
 " sanctified, " as ordinarily used in Holy Scripture, 
 meant, being separated to a holy use, being set apart 
 from all profane or secular uses, and appropriated or 
 separated to the holy purposes of God, and that this 
 was the case of the Baptist. From the time of his 
 leaving the womb of his mother, that is, from the time 
 of his birth, it pleased God to set him apart, and sepa- 
 rate him for the holy purpose of being the Herald or 
 Forerunner of the Messiah. 
 
 He replied at once that this was a proof, if proof were 
 wanting, that we could never settle our differences by 
 referring to the Holy Scriptures, inasmuch as we could 
 never agree as to their interpretation. He would not 
 therefore refer to them, but would ask, whether it was 
 possible to doubt the miraculous and immaculate con- 
 ception of the most Holy Mary, or that she was perfectly 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 203 
 
 sinless — free from all original and actual sin alike ? On 
 perceiving that we dissented altogether on this point, 
 he continued to say that there could be no doubt that 
 she possessed merit — that she was meritorious in the 
 sight of God. On still perceiving that we dissented 
 from such an opinion, he continued to say that he did 
 not see how any one could deny that there was merit 
 in works, and that assuredly there was merit in the 
 sufferings undergone by the blessed Mary, in giving 
 birth to the child Jesus. There was no necessity what- 
 ever — no reason whatever why she should have subjected 
 herself to them, and therefore her having actually un- 
 dergone such sufferings was meritorious. It must have 
 possessed merit in the sight of God. She had some 
 claim upon God for it. There are many things, he 
 added, which the Church calls counsels, not commands, 
 and the difference respecting these is, that you are under 
 obligation or necessity to perform commands, — you must 
 obey them or you sin against God ; but you are under 
 no sort of obligation or necessity to perform counsels. 
 They are, as it were, an advice for increased usefulness 
 or increased holiness, over and beyond what is necessary 
 for salvation ; and if a man perform these, he has merit 
 in the sight of God, because he has performed them, 
 and thus has made himself more useful and holy than 
 necessary. There was, for example, no kind of necessity 
 upon the young man in the gospel, obliging him to give 
 all he possessed to the poor ; but there was counsel, 
 advice, — and he was not bound to take that advice, even 
 
204 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 though given by our Lord himself; but if he had fol- 
 lowed that advice, then undoubtedly he would have had 
 merit with God. 
 
 My wife replied to all this with expressions of sur- 
 prise, that any one could hold the doctrine of human 
 merit — that if we but knew our own hearts, we could 
 not but feel ourselves such poor unworthy creatures, 
 such poor miserable sinners, that it seemed impossible 
 to arrive at such a height of presumption, as to imagine 
 we could have merit in the sight of God. We never do 
 — we never can do enough for the God who has done 
 so much for us ; and how, she asked, how is it possible 
 for us to do more than enough ? Even after we have 
 done our very utmost, our all, we yet are unworthy 
 sinners ; and therefore our Lord has expressly said, 
 " After ye have done all, say, We are all unprofitable 
 servants, we have done that which it was our duty to do." 
 
 He said that the Church taught that there was a merit 
 in some works — that those works were not natural 
 works, but done by the grace of God, and that God was 
 pleased of his own grace to ascribe merit to them. It 
 was in this way the saints had merit with God. They 
 had by God's grace been enabled to live very holy lives, 
 and to endure many sufferings and to perform many 
 good works. They had been enabled to do all this only 
 by God's grace, and as all this was not necessary to 
 their own salvation, but was supplemental or supernu- 
 merary, so all this was meritorious, and thus gave them 
 an accumulation of merit with God. But still there 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 205 
 
 was nothing presumptuous in this, as it was from first 
 to last of God's grace. 
 
 I said here that I was anxious to understand him 
 clearly : I understood him as saying that although the 
 merit of works was only a merit ascribed to them of the 
 grace of God, and not truly and rightfully belonging to 
 them, yet that the merit was as effectual as if it truly 
 and rightfully belonged to them ; so that a man having 
 performed some such work, might fairly reckon on it 
 and take account of merit for it, and set it down against 
 his sins — against the punishment his sins deserved. I 
 added, that I inferred that this was his view, from what 
 he had just said of the merits of the saints, implying as 
 I thought, that by such works of merit, a man might 
 obtain or work out for himself more merit than he 
 wanted for his forgiveness and salvation. In short a 
 man could be more righteous, holy, and meritorious than 
 God required of him. 
 
 He assented to this. 
 
 I then asked, whether I was so to understand him as 
 implying that a man might, by following the counsels 
 of the Church, of which he spoke, obtain a large accession 
 of merit, and then set this down, so to speak, — if I might 
 speak it with reverence, — in a sort of account with 
 God, as if keeping a debtor-and-creditor account with 
 God ; and that thus by increasing the sum of his meri- 
 torious actions, so far lessen the balance of sin that was 
 against him, and thus lessen the amount of suffering or 
 punishment for his sins. 
 
206 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 He smiled and* said, that though it seemed an unusual 
 way of stating the point, yet the truth was very much 
 as I stated it — that this merit went to lessen, not the 
 sins as I had said, but the temporary sufferings and 
 temporary punishment due to his sins. He added that 
 the truth was that the Church taught more than this, 
 namely, that as a man could work out for himself more 
 merit than was required for his own salvation — that as 
 a man could thus accumulate merit, superfluous and 
 supererogatory, it formed or went to form a sort of 
 treasury of super-abundant merits in the Church. 
 
 I replied that I had so understood the doctrine of the 
 Church of Rome — that I had lately procured a small 
 volume just published by the order of Jesuits, setting 
 forth all st the pious works " to which certain specified 
 indulgences are attached ; and that in this volume it is 
 expressly stated, that the super-abundant merits of in- 
 dividuals — the merits which they have possessed over 
 and beyond what was required for their own salvation, 
 formed a sort of treasury of merit in the Church, and 
 that the pope as the head of the Church, had the dis- 
 posal of all this superfluous merit, and could apply it to 
 persons here or in purgatory as it might seem good to 
 him — that thus he could lessen the period of suffering 
 in the fires of purgatory, by what was called a partial 
 indulgence, and annihilate the whole by what was called 
 a plenary indulgence. I added that this was a doctrine 
 too evident in everything that was to be seen in Rome, 
 and that all my views of the truth of Holy Scripture — 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 207 
 
 all my opinions of God's revealed word — all my feelings 
 as to my own poor sinful soul, that ought to be humbled 
 to the dust, revolted against such notions. The doctrine 
 of human merit seemed to me unbecoming and unna- 
 tural, irreconcileable with human experience, and con- 
 trary to the plainest language of Holy Scripture ; but 
 bad and unseemly as it was in itself, it seemed to me 
 hideous and monstrous when carried to the outrageous 
 extravagance of constituting a treasury of superfluous 
 merits, for the pope or any poor mortal to distribute or 
 apportion to others in the way of indulgences to release 
 them from purgatory. 
 
 He said that he was not surprised at our repugnance 
 to it, and that he could not expect that we should re- 
 ceive it at first; but that after some more instruction 
 we should feel the difficulty pass away, in this as in 
 many other particulars. 
 
 My wife said that nothing could reconcile us to this. 
 It always was and always must be a fatal objection to 
 the Church of Rome, with all earnest and sincere chris- 
 tians. She could never forget that it was this very 
 point, carried out in the matter of indulgences, that first 
 led Martin Luther to the work of the Reformation; 
 and she added, that day after day it was forced upon her 
 memory at Rome, for whenever she looked on that noble 
 Church of St. Peter's, she could never fail to remember 
 the means by which much of it was erected ; — that a 
 large amount of the money to defray the cost of its 
 erection, was raised by the sale of indulgences ; so that 
 
208 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 in her memory and imagination the Reformation of 
 Luther was always connected with the erection of St. 
 Peter's — the unscriptural doctrines of human merit and 
 of papal indulgences. 
 
 I was unwilling that this subject should pass away 
 hastily, as if it were not a matter of the first and last 
 importance, and therefore I remarked^ with the view of 
 leading farther into the subject involving so much of 
 the essence of the Gospel, that Martin Luther felt very 
 strongly on the point of human merit, and that he held 
 that a man could never be justified by works, and could 
 only be justified by faith in Christ. He held that the 
 doctrine of justification was the question by which 
 a standing and a falling Church were to be distin- 
 guished. 
 
 He replied with great vehemence that Luther was a 
 bad man — an immoral man, inasmuch as his writings 
 led to immorality, and his life was horribly immoral — 
 that he held that no actions were good — that there were 
 no good works— that it was no matter whether a man 
 did good or evil — in short it was perfectly astounding 
 the wickedness which he taught ; and yet, he added, 
 Luther was a great man — a man of wonderful talent and 
 power, and he stopped at nothing. He was a great man, 
 but he was an awful one. He shewed in his writings 
 that his opinion was against all good works — that there 
 were no good works, and that even if there were, they 
 were useless. The zeal and vehemence of my friend 
 against Luther, led him to say more and to express 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 209 
 
 / 
 
 himself more strongly and warmly than is necessary to 
 repeat here. 
 
 I said that I apprehended that Luther was much 
 misrepresented, and indeed that the doctrine of the 
 gospel and of the Anglican Church, was much misunder- 
 stood, on the subject of faith on one hand, and works on 
 the other. I then narrated an interesting incident of 
 a Roman Catholic priest, who once called on me in 
 private to lay open the state of his mind. We had long 
 and deeply interesting conversations on many points, 
 but there remained what he regarded as a fatal objec- 
 tion to the Church of England and all Protestant 
 Churches. They all, as he said, flung good works aside 
 and taught that men could be saved without them, and 
 he felt that no man could be saved unless he lived a 
 holy life unto God. The reply which I made to him 
 was, that he was evidently under a mistake — that all 
 Protestant Churches, and especially the Church of Eng- 
 land, held the necessity of holiness or good works; but 
 in a different way, and for a different end from what he 
 imagined. The truth of the Holy Scriptures, I said, 
 was this : There is the Son of God, and there is the 
 Holy Ghost, both the second and third persons of the 
 Trinity — both the one and the other of these has his 
 own peculiar or special department in the economy of a 
 man's salvation. The work or office of the Son, Jesus 
 Christ, is to justify us, that is, to take away our sins, 
 and make us accepted through his merits in the sight 
 of God. This is called our justification, and it is ours 
 
 p 
 
210 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 solely through faith in Jesus Christ, without any works 
 or deserving on our part. It is wholly through faith 
 and without works. But this, I said, was the office or 
 department of Jesus Christ. There was then the office 
 and department of the Holy Spirit. He was to take in 
 hand those who were justified by faith, and He was to 
 make them holy, holy in thought, holy in feeling, holy 
 in desire, holy in aspirations, and holy in their whole 
 lives, leading them and teaching them, and enabling 
 them to live in prayer and humility and good works, 
 and all that partook of the example of Jesus Christ. 
 And thus, I continued, we hold that our justification, 
 which is the office of the Son of God, is solely by faith 
 and without works, while we hold that our sanctification, 
 which is the work of the Holy Ghost, is manifested in 
 every good word and work. Now Protestants hold both 
 one and other of these, but we do not like to confound 
 them. We hold that the justification by Jesus Christ 
 is necessary, and we also hold that the sanctification by 
 the Holy Spirit is also necessary — the former being 
 through faith, the latter being a consequence and never 
 a cause of the former ; and therefore it ought never be 
 said of our Protestant Churches, that we reject the 
 practice of good works. We put both faith and works 
 in their proper and relative places, and we do not like 
 to confound them, and we shrink from supposing that 
 there is merit in either one or the other. I added that 
 this view of the question completely satisfied the Roman 
 Catholic priest, and shortly afterwards he renounced 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 211 
 
 the Church of Rome, and is now a minister of the Church 
 of England. 
 
 My reverend friend listened to this very attentively, 
 and stated that he quite understood it, but he wished to 
 know why we denied merit to the good and holy works 
 of the justified man. 
 
 I answered this with an apology for having already 
 said so much, when I rather wished to be informed by 
 hearing his opinions ; but that if he could bear a little 
 with me, I would endeavor to make some excuse for 
 our Protestant views on this subject. I then said, that 
 we held that poor and infirm and sinful creatures, such as 
 we are, can do no good thing, that is, nothing good in the 
 searching eye of a Holy God, unless as His Holy Spirit 
 gives us His grace. It is not we, but the Holy Spirit 
 that does the good work in us. If we have a good thought 
 — if we have a holy wish — if we have an heavenly de- 
 sire — if we have done a good thing, it has been the 
 Holy Spirit who has planted it in us or enabled us to 
 do it. Whatever holy thought we think and whatever 
 good work we are enabled to perform, the praise and 
 merit belong not to us but to the Holy Spirit who has 
 done it in us. The merit is His and not ours, and it is 
 a wrong and injury to Him for us to claim it as if it 
 were ours. The great truth, I said, was this — our good 
 and holy works, so far from making us creditors with 
 God, as if we had a claim on him on account of our 
 merits, do really bring us in more and more debtors to 
 God. The more holy thoughts we have, and the more 
 
 p 2 
 
212 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 good works we do, even so the more are we made deb- 
 tors unto God the Holy Ghost, by whose inspiration we 
 were enabled to think the one or do the other. It has 
 been some new and additional afflatus of the Holy 
 Spirit, and it therefore makes us debtors more than ever. 
 This, I added, was the view I took of this subject, feel- 
 ing that our hearts were poor, weak, miserable things, 
 and that when rightly conscious of our real state as our 
 fallen hearts appear before God, the very last thought 
 that can be congenial to the mind, is that which could 
 have connection with human merit. 
 
 I cannot say that my reverend friend was much af- 
 fected by this mode of stating the subject. He heard 
 it however with marked attention and respect. It seemed 
 to commend itself to his better feelings, and I could 
 only pray that the time might come, when circumstances 
 might bring such views home to his convictions and his 
 heart. 
 
 He merely said that there was what the Church 
 called the humility of merit, and that the sentiments I 
 had uttered were of that nature. He then turned away 
 to some opinions of St. Augustine, and St. Bernard, 
 and on these we conversed for a short time, and soon 
 afterwards he retired with his companion. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 213 
 
 CHAPTER VIII. 
 
 THE ORIGIN OF THE CATACOMBS— THE CHRISTIANS USING THEM AS A REFUGE 
 — AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP — AS A BURIAL-PLACE — FORGOTTEN AND 
 AFTERWARDS DISCOVERED — RESORTED TO FOR RELICS — A VISIT TO THEM 
 — DESCRIPTION OF THEIR PRESENT STATE — MEANS OR TESTS FOR THE 
 DISCOVERY OF RELICS— COLLECTION OF MONUMENTAL INSCRIPTIONS FOUND 
 IN THE CATACOMBS — THEIR CHARACTER AND NATURE— A CONVERSATION 
 IN THE COLLEGE OF THE JESUITS RESPECTING THEM — CONCLUSION AS TO 
 THE RELIGION OF THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH. 
 
 During a visit at the Collegio Romano, a conversation 
 arose in reference to the catacombs, and the argument 
 to be derived from their inscriptions. Some remarks 
 respecting the Catacombs will be necessary to render 
 the conversation intelligible. 
 
 The origin of the Catacombs was in the days of pagan 
 Rome, and long previous to the preaching of Chris- 
 tianity. They seem now universally regarded as the 
 mines or quarries, from which the inhabitants of Rome 
 extracted those vast supplies of that kind of earth or 
 
2L4 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 sand called puzzolana, so generally used in their build- 
 ings. Quarrying in the Campagna for this, they carried 
 their shafts sometimes to a considerable depth, and on 
 striking on a vein they followed its windings, sometimes 
 upwards, sometimes downwards, now by long flights of 
 steps, and then by winding galleries. The branches from 
 the main shafts or galleries extend in every direction, 
 frequently so winding as to intersect each other, de- 
 bouching by a great variety of openings on the Cam- 
 pagna. These passages are narrow, ranging generally 
 from three to six feet. in width, and from seven to ten 
 in height. They are very rude and rough and rugged, 
 presenting in themselves, apart from the associations 
 which give them so deep an interest, nothing whatever 
 beyond the shafts, galleries, or passages of any mine. 
 They are cold, damp and dark, and constitute a sort of 
 gigantic honeycomb-work, extending for miles in dif- 
 ferent directions underground; and many a time the 
 wanderer of the Campagna — the desolate Campagna — 
 comes suddenly upon some deep hole — some dark hollow, 
 which if explored will be found to be one of the innume- 
 rable entrances to these quarries, or at least one of those 
 spots where the super-incumbent soil has sunk in, and 
 perhaps closed some branch of the Catacombs for ever. 
 Indeed this sudden falling in of the earth after heavy 
 rains, severe frosts, and occasional tremblings of an 
 earthquake, has been a source of much danger. Tales 
 are carefully narrated of scenes too horrible to describe 
 here, of those who heedlessly and without competent 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 215 
 
 guides, have entered these subterranean regions. The 
 earth falling in has crushed or smothered some, while it 
 has debarred for ever all exit for others, who have been 
 left there to perish miserably. They who thus sought 
 the Catacombs as the grave-place of others, found them 
 only a grave for themselves. 
 
 These quarries or mines of puzzolana, had long ceased 
 to be worked by the Romans. They seem to have been 
 exhausted, at all events they had been long closed as 
 mines before those events of Christian history, which 
 were destined to shroud the Catacombs with an inef- 
 faceable interest and charm. 
 
 It is unnecessary to notice the persecutions of the 
 primitive Church. The everlasting hatred — the frantic 
 fury — the deep malignancy — the atrocious cruelty, so 
 truly representing man as half-beast and half-fiend, that 
 so characterised these several persecutions, are matters 
 of history now familiar to all classes of Christians. They 
 are alluded to here only as the causes, which first 
 operated in investing the catacombs with their special 
 and peculiar interest. It was in these catacombs the 
 Christians concealed themselves from the horrors of their 
 persecutors. Some Christians, feeling themselves called 
 on to stand as witnesses for the truth, gave their testi- 
 mony with faithfulness and fearlessness, and willingly 
 and rejoicingly sealed their testimony with their blood. 
 They received the martyr's grave and the martyr's crown. 
 Others seem to have sought their martyrdom — to have 
 rushed madly to the tribunals, accused themselves and 
 
216 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 sought the crown of martyrdom as they might seek the 
 robe of marriage. It is not necessary either to justify 
 or impugn the motives of these persons, who seem to 
 have freely sought persecution rather than to have been 
 sought by it. But the immense body of the faithful, 
 feeling no such special vocation to martyrdom — feeling 
 confident that they would be enabled to stand faithful 
 if called on in the hour of need — rather fled before their 
 enemies and sought to retire from view, and hide them- 
 selves till the storm were overpast. They fled in vast 
 numbers and concealed themselves in the catacombs. 
 As the profession of Christianity became a capital offence, 
 it became necessary for all to fly for their lives — to fly 
 from home, kindred, property, all, and conceal themselves 
 until some change in the law or some mitigation in the 
 persecution might give them some hope of escape. In 
 the mean time family after family, as well as individual 
 after individual, fled from the city of Rome into the 
 Campagna ; and there entering the holes and shafts of 
 the catacombs, concealed themselves in the dark recesses 
 and winding passages and gloomy labyrinths of those 
 exhausted and neglected mines. We read of some of 
 the saints of the Old Testament, that " they wandered 
 about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, 
 afflicted, tormented, of whom the world was not worthy, 
 they wandered in deserts and in mountains, and in dens 
 and caves of the earth." And these had their followers 
 in the saints of the New Testament. They gathered in 
 crowds into these dark caverns. They flitted among 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 217 
 
 them like spectres, startling and frightening each other, 
 as meeting suddenly in these graves of the living ; now 
 shrinking in terror as from an approaching enemy, and 
 now meeting with joyous thankfulness some faithful 
 friend. There must have been a powerful bond of 
 brotherhood created by scenes like these, by a conscious- 
 ness of common dangers and mutual dependence, and 
 by the fact that they all were the sufferers for the same 
 high and holy cause ; and they were knit together by 
 the strongest ties of Christian brotherhood, and they 
 lived together encouraging and comforting one another 
 by that with which they themselves were comforted of 
 God, by the enduring, ennobling hope of eternal life. 
 
 This conversion of the catacombs into places of refuge, 
 and concealment for the miserable and persecuted Chris- 
 tians, led to their consecration to a yet higher and holier 
 purpose. It led naturally to their becoming the place 
 for Christian worship. It has been ever found in the 
 experience of Christianity, that affliction and sorrow 
 draw the heart from the things of this present world ; 
 and that times like those to which we are now referring 
 — times when no man could call his life his own, draw 
 men powerfully to their knees, and lead to a more fre- 
 quent, more earnest, more fervent attendance and devo- 
 tion to the worship of God. Such times lead true and 
 faithful men not only to more devotion in private for 
 personal comfort and strength, but also to more worship 
 in public for mutual encouragement and support. Accor- 
 dingly, amidst the deep afflictions and fearful sufferings 
 
218 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 of these victims of persecution, they assembled together 
 for the worship of God. They there knelt and prayed 
 and praised and read together. And those long passages 
 and dreary caverns resounded with the words of prayer, 
 and with the hymn of praise, and with the reading of 
 the word, and with the preaching of the gospel, as these 
 faithful and devout men, the children of persecuted 
 Christianity, and living martyrs to the faith of Jesus, 
 poured out their souls in prayer and praise. There 
 they excavated little recesses and called them Churches, 
 where they could assemble in larger numbers for the 
 common worship of God, and the communion of the 
 Lord's Supper. And there many a hardened heart was 
 melted into love, and many a broken spirit was healed 
 by the balm of Gilead, and many an afflicted soul .was 
 comforted of God. There must have been an inex- 
 pressible charm in the words of Holy Scripture under 
 such touching circumstances, and there must have been 
 a marvellous power in the gospel preached faithfully in 
 such strange scenes and stranger times. Nor was this 
 all. Even when persecution relaxed in violence, and 
 Christians were not necessarily exposed to death for 
 their profession ; and when therefore they were enabled 
 to steal forth from these dark caves and return to home 
 and relatives, still there was no relaxation of violence 
 against anything approaching to a public celebration of 
 Christian worship. It was necessary therefore to con- 
 duct it with the strictest secrecy — a secrecy so strict as to 
 be unknown to all but those whose faithfulness could 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 219 
 
 be entirely depended on ; and it was thence invested 
 intentionally with a veil of mystery, so as to ensure its 
 being kept secret from the uninitiated. This secrecy 
 became the more necessary, when discovery would have 
 been the certain martyrdom of the most zealous and 
 devoted of the ministry of the Church. All this led to 
 the worship of the Christians being secretly and myste- 
 riously celebrated in the catacombs. And those Chris- 
 tians who, living in the upper world, breathing the air 
 and enjoying the light of heaven, yet loved to join in 
 the common service, and in the holy communion, were 
 obliged to resort in the silent hours of night to those 
 holes in the Campagna, which led through many a long 
 and winding intricacy, to the secret recesses where they 
 could enjoy the ministrations of the Church. 
 
 And further still, these dark and dreary scenes, were 
 destined to receive a yet further source of interest. The 
 Christians who fled there and found safety there, were 
 not unmindful of their brethren who in the upper world 
 were called to the trials of martyrdom ; who not escaping 
 as others, or perhaps arrested in the moment of escaping, 
 were doomed to the sword, or to the scaffold, or to the 
 wild beasts of the Colosseum. They used to steal from 
 their hiding-places by night, and bear away the mangled 
 bodies and scattered bones of these martyred men, and 
 bringing them among their brethren, thank God for the 
 faithfulness of their testimony, pray to God to be enabled 
 to follow the example of patience and faith, and then 
 bury them in the recesses of the Catacombs. The Cata- 
 
220 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 combs thus became the graves of the martyrs. Too 
 soon and too often, alas, they became the scenes of 
 martyrdom. On some occasions when the fury of per- 
 secution raged with more than ordinary malignancy, the 
 persecutors would enter the Catacombs and slay the 
 unhappy Christians even in their hiding-places ; and 
 though in the intricacy of these deep recesses, the un- 
 happy ones were able easily to stop passages and remain 
 only in those places where none but those well ac- 
 quainted with the place could possibly trace them, yet 
 at times they were treacherously betrayed and surprised, 
 so as that the Catacombs became not only the graves of 
 martyrs but the scenes of martyrdom ; and besides this, 
 the Christians usually buried their dead in these places. 
 The pagan Romans, at least of the higher and wealthier 
 classes, usually burned their dead and deposited the ashes 
 in small cinerary urns or vessels. The Christian Romans 
 on the other hand, seem invariably to have adopted the 
 practice of burying their dead, perhaps from the Jewish 
 custom or from the prevalent opinion that the end of 
 the world was at hand, and that their bodies would soon 
 arise again for immortality. At all events, whatever 
 was the motive, the practice was universal. They made 
 no burial-places above ground, but taking the relics of 
 the dead into the recesses of the Catacombs, where so 
 many of the slaves and poorer classes of the heathens 
 were buried, they there deposited their brethren. They 
 cut a cavity in the side wall, so to speak, of the passage 
 or gallery, sufficiently large to contain the body, and 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 221 
 
 there they laid it. This system continued for years, 
 even for centuries ; and as the numbers of Christians 
 multiplied at Rome, so the number of burials multiplied 
 in proportion ; till all through the Catacombs, the walls 
 of the passages and galleries at both sides are full of 
 these graves, arranged sometimes two and three deep, 
 so that the stranger now walking through the Catacombs 
 is walking through long galleries of the dead, sleeping 
 on either hand in numbers beyond counting. There 
 lie buried the mangled forms of the most faithful of 
 martyrs, men who counted not their lives dear to them- 
 selves — there lie buried the bones of many an afflicted 
 and persecuted saint, who lived and died in the hope of 
 glory — there rest the mortal remains of many a faithful 
 Christian, whose life adorned the gospel he professed, 
 and commended it to the admiration of all men ; and 
 there lie the mouldering bodies of ten thousand times 
 ten thousand of those men, who have professed the 
 name of Christian, but whose hearts are known only to 
 Him, who shall reveal all secrets at the judgment-day. 
 
 Such is the interest associated with the Catacombs. 
 It is purely the interest of association, as in themselves 
 they possess nothing of attraction even to the curious. 
 But associated as they are with the persecutions of the 
 primitive church, consecrated by being the place where 
 the sacred services were celebrated, and hallowed as the 
 resting-place of so many Christians, they possess an 
 enduring charm to the Christian. 
 
 And yet it seems strange that they should have been 
 
222 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 so long neglected and forgotten. It is certain that soon 
 after Christianity had triumphed over Paganism, and had 
 become the established religion of the empire, the Cata- 
 combs ceased to be resorted to as the sacred and cherished 
 burial-place of the Christian dead. They were closed. 
 Erom being unused they soon became neglected, and 
 from being neglected they soon became forgotten. It 
 is a remarkable fact, that for many centuries the memory 
 of the Catacombs was forgotten, and even their existence 
 totally unknown. For ages all tradition of their uses— 
 their sacredness — their mouldering contents — and even 
 of their very existence, was utterly lost. In the city of 
 Rome, with all its crowding memories, this was lost. 
 In the Church of Rome with all its supposed con- 
 geniality with antiquity — with all its boasted veneration 
 and devotion to the ancient — with all its priests and its 
 monks, its convents and its monasteries — in the Church 
 of Rome, all memory of the Catacombs, as the refuge of 
 the persecuted Christian — as the place of the services of 
 the persecuted Church — as the burial-place of the mar- 
 tyrs and the saints of Christ, was as thoroughly lost and 
 as perfectly a forgotten and neglected thing, as in the 
 Mosques of Mecca. It was not till the sixteenth century, 
 that the evidence of their existence and their uses called 
 attention to them ; and the interest and importance of 
 the subject were forced upon the lazy and slumbering 
 inmates of the innumerable convents of Rome. 
 
 And even then they were destined to be desecrated 
 by a use that could scarcely have been anticipated. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 223 
 
 They were invaded by innumerable bands of monks and 
 friars, collecting from their graves the bones of the long 
 buried dead — disturbing the mouldering relics of mor- 
 tality — dragging them into the upper world — hawking 
 them from city to city, and from country to country ; 
 and driving an execrable traffic in them under the name 
 of relics. Every grave was rifled, every skeleton was 
 rent asunder, every bone was pounded in order to mul- 
 tiply splinters ; and when once the grave of some martyr 
 or saint was said to be discovered, the head was severed 
 and sent to one country, and the leg was severed and 
 sent to another, an arm was forwarded to one land and 
 a thigh to another, a tooth was extracted from the skull 
 and sent to some convent, and a rib severed from the 
 back sent to some monastery. And at the same time a 
 traffic of the most disgraceful and degrading nature, 
 was driven in all these, as lawful articles of ecclesiastical 
 merchandize. The demand for such articles was so 
 great in the superstition and ignorance of the times, 
 and the miraculous properties of such relics were so 
 extravagantly extolled, as of incalculable advantage to 
 the temporal and spiritual interest of the possessors, 
 that the demand of the market soon called forth an 
 adequate supply ; and such was the unscrupulousness of 
 the authorities at Rome, and so utterly profligate the 
 monks who were the merchants in this matter, that they 
 not unfrequently sold several different skulls as the only 
 true skull of some particular martyr, and several different 
 arms as the veritable arms of some favorite saint, so 
 
221 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that even at the present day, some saints have several 
 different heads and arms in different places. Sometimes 
 the traveller in Italy discovers some martyr who has 
 had two or three heads, and some saint who has had 
 four or five arms, and perhaps a still greater superfluity 
 of legs. The enormous amount of wealth which this 
 traffic brought into Rome is incalculable. The Cata- 
 combs as a mine of bones, proved incomparably more 
 precious than if they had been a mine of silver. 
 
 But disgusting and sickening as was all this, as an 
 indecency and an outrage upon the dead, and revolting 
 as it was to every gentle and Christian feeling, it yet 
 could not alter the facts of past history, nor strip the 
 Catacombs of their touching interest and real importance 
 to the student of Christian history. There the Catacombs 
 remained, there the graves of the Christians remained, 
 there the monuments of the dead remained ; and while 
 these remained it might be hoped that they would sup- 
 ply some evidences — some items of primitive customs 
 and primitive opinions, that might serve to illustrate 
 the opinions and the practices of primitive Christianity. 
 
 The best mode of visiting these scenes, at least those 
 Catacombs most generally, because most easily, visited 
 and explored, is by entering them through the Church of 
 the convent of St. Sebastian. It is narrated in the legend 
 of that saint, that he was a young and handsome soldier 
 — that for the crime of believing in Christianity, he was 
 bound to a tree as a target for the arrows of his comrades 
 — that having been shot through every limb till he 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 225 
 
 bristled with arrows, a human porcupine, he yet survived 
 by a miracle — that he again accused himself before the 
 tribunals, and was dispatched by decapitation. This, or 
 something of this kind, is the legend of St. Sebastian, 
 one of the most favored and popular of the saints at 
 Rome ; not so much from anything extraordinary in the 
 saint himself, as from his being so useful and fine a sub- 
 ject for the pencils of the artists. The fine and youthful 
 figure — the fleshiness and nakedness — the grace of the 
 position, and the expression of the face, all supply a 
 noble subject for the artist ; and the multiplication of the 
 pictures creates a multiplication of votaries. It is said 
 by the monks of the convent of St. Sebastian, that their 
 Church or Chapel is built over that part of the Cata- 
 comb where the bodv of the saint was buried. This is 
 by no means improbable ; at all events there is an en- 
 trance — and it is by far the best and most convenient — 
 into the Catacombs through the Church of the convent. 
 The monk who acted as guide or cicerone, on our 
 visit to these interesting scenes, was selected for his 
 office with admirable judgment, and as admirable taste. 
 He looked like a moving plague — a personification of 
 the malaria — a walking pestilence. There he was, an 
 attenuated thing, a living skeleton, with his brown cloak 
 around him to conceal the bones from view ; you might 
 fancy you could almost see the light of the candles 
 shining through his ribs ; and withal he looked a meek 
 and subdued man, one who spoke with vivacity — indeed 
 with enthusiasm, though his voice was toned with a sad 
 
 Q 
 
226 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and melancholy cadence. He was very calm, thoughtful 
 and silent, if left to himself, but exceedingly animated 
 and communicative when questioned. He spoke in rap- 
 tures of the subterranean Chapel, and gave all real and 
 needful information, as well as a good deal that was un- 
 real, respecting the Catacombs, that the general visitor 
 could require. He supplied each of our party with a 
 lighted candle. He led the way himself with steps slow 
 and solemn, and as stealthy as if he feared to disturb the 
 slumbers of the dead. On he moved, or rather glided, 
 through those dark passages and damp galleries, looking 
 for all the world like a ghost ; and but for the color of his 
 brown monkish dress, with his thin, haggard, attenuated 
 look, and at the same time his earnest and impressive 
 manner, he might well have passed for one of the ancient 
 inhabitants of the Catacombs called again to life. He 
 would stop at times, and carefully explain all the details 
 of some grave more remarkable than the rest, and at 
 other times he would pause, hold his candle in one hand 
 and mysteriously point with his other bony hand to 
 some spot or object — look unutterably mysterious, and 
 then drop his eyes to the ground and pass on without 
 another word. And then, when all was over, he looked 
 so poor and sad — so miserable and meek, and stood so 
 modestly looking for the gratuity usually given on those 
 occasions, with an expression that seemed designed to 
 move the visitor to more than ordinary liberality ; that 
 there really was no resisting the incomparable acting of 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 227 
 
 his silent begging. Poor man ! He earns hardly the 
 money he receives. 
 
 The graves of the Catacombs are excavated on both 
 sides of these passages. They are excavated in the 
 soil or tufo, which forms the sides of the passages, and 
 therefore can be examined with the greatest possible 
 facility. They are often smaller — much smaller than 
 might be expected, indeed so very small sometimes, as 
 to raise the question as to the manner in which the 
 bodies of the dead could have found room in them. 
 
 That these graves, at least for the greater portion, 
 were the graves of Christians, is very generally believed. 
 The grounds of that belief are not so certain as might 
 be desirable. It was certainly the custom of the Pagan 
 Romans to burn their dead. But this was true gene- 
 rally and not universally, for it was customary to bury 
 the slaves and the poorer classes ; and there is not a 
 shadow of doubt as to the Catacombs having been fre- 
 quently used as the burial-place of those classes of the 
 heathen population, long before their being made the 
 refuge of the persecuted Christians. And besides this 
 there is every probability that the Christians often buried 
 the bodies of their heathen relatives, among those of 
 other Christian members of the same family. The bones 
 of many who had continued in heathenism, were laid in 
 affectionate remembrance beside those of others, near 
 and loved, who had embraced Christianity. And thus 
 Heathen and Christian sleep side by side, in the last 
 and common resting-place of humanity. 
 
 Q 2 
 
228 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 This fact has been placed beyond a shadow of doubt, 
 by the number of monumental inscriptions, which are 
 certainly heathen, found in the Catacombs. Nor is it 
 a sufficient answer to this, to suggest that possibly they 
 may have taken the monumental tablets of heathens, 
 and employed them to cover the graves of Christians, as 
 this would only prove that there were the tombs of 
 heathens close at hand ; indeed this seems very certain, 
 for some stones have heathen inscriptions on one side, 
 and Christian inscriptions on the other, shewing that 
 they had taken a heathen stone, and reversing it, placed 
 it on a Christian grave, and then wrote a suitable in- 
 scription. 
 
 It was almost universal among the Pagan Romans, 
 to place over the monumental inscription the words 
 u Divis Manibus" which they sometimes contracted to 
 the first two letters, " D. M." the allusion being to the 
 gods presiding over the place of the dead. This and 
 other allusions to their gods, occurs frequently on the 
 monumental tablets of the Catacombs, thus demon- 
 strating the fact of the burial of heathens in those places. 
 
 The non-observance of this has led to some ludicrous 
 mistakes, even to the enrolling some heathens in the 
 roll of saints, and the worship of the bones of heathens 
 as the relics of saints. The following is a well-known 
 instance of this. 
 
 D. M. 
 Julia Evodia filia fecit castae matri. 
 
 This is a heathen inscription. The tablet is dedi- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 229 
 
 cated to the Manes, " Divis Manibus," and is similar 
 to thousands of others found on the graves and urns of 
 heathens. It is a memento which Julia Evodia, a daugh- 
 ter, raised to her mother. And without ever considering 
 that the lady was a heathen, the monks have disposed 
 of her bones as the relics of a saint and martyr ; and 
 never observing that it was the grave of the mother, 
 whose name is not given, they have christened the 
 bones by the name of the daughter, as the relics of Saint 
 Julia Evodia, who had erected the tablet ! 
 
 This is a well-known and amusing instance, of the 
 mistakes into which either their ignorance or their 
 avarice seduced the clergy of Rome in former days. 
 They now indeed exhibit some ingenuity in suggest- 
 ing that the D. M. of the heathen monuments, may 
 possibly have been adopted among some Christians, to 
 express Deo Maximo or perhaps Divus Martyr, and 
 thus endeavor to Christianise all those monuments of 
 the heathens found in the Catacombs ! The enlightened 
 and candid among them, laugh at the whole affair as 
 much as ourselves ; and this they can do the more easily, 
 as all that could have been gained by the mistakes or 
 deceptions of the old monks, has long since been ac- 
 complished. 
 
 On asking our emaciated and ghastly guide for the 
 signs by which he could ascertain the grave of a Chris- 
 tian from that of a heathen, he replied by pointing to 
 little crosses scratched on the wall beside or above the 
 graves. He pronounced these to be the signs of the 
 
230 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Christian faith of the departed dead. This seemed 
 reasonable, but it occurred at the moment that, as these 
 Catacombs were in the possession of these monks for 
 some centuries, so they could scratch these crosses over 
 any number of graves that might seem desirable. It 
 was clear they could never be detected, and the charac- 
 ter of monks has never been such, as to secure them 
 from all suspicion of " pious frauds." This appeared 
 still more probable, when having lingered a little behind 
 our party, in order to examine some grave more accu- 
 rately, I observed a gentleman occupying himself the 
 mean time, in making these crosses with the iron end 
 of his walking stick ! We agreed that there was no 
 appearance of difference between these and the other 
 crosses ; and so our young friend amused himself with 
 making a few more, and when we left the Catacombs 
 he congratulated himself, on having made half a dozen 
 saints or Christians at least during his visit ! 
 
 I was particularly anxious to learn the means, by 
 which the monks were able to ascertain the bones of a 
 saint — the bones of a martyr — from the bones of any 
 ordinary Christian. As the Catacombs were the great 
 treasure-house of relics, I wished to learn the tests or 
 signs by which those bones, which were to be venerated 
 as relics of saints, were to be discerned from the bones 
 of others. While residing far away in the distant scenes 
 of England, a man is compelled to rest satisfied with 
 what information he can gather from books on such 
 subjects ; and there is scarcely a strong statement can 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 231 
 
 be made by one party, that is not immediately contra- 
 dicted by the other, so that the mind of an enquirer is 
 held in suspense, amidst the hardihood of assertion 
 generated by the odium theologicum, by that compound 
 of the gall and vinegar of Calvary. But I have some- 
 times thought that there would be a satisfaction in 
 making the enquiry, and receiving the answer on the 
 spot. I resolved therefore to ask the question, amidst 
 the dark vaults and dreary graves of the Catacombs, 
 and to obtain my answer amidst the fleshless skeletons 
 and long-silent bones of the primitive Christians. 
 
 The poor attenuated skeleton of a monk, who seemed 
 to me as pious as he was poor, and as sincere as he was 
 attenuated, stated that one sign was a red mark, which 
 was sometimes observed beside a grave. This, he said, 
 was the blood of the martyr, which was thus sprinkled 
 on this spot, in order to remain as a sign of martyrdom. 
 Another sign was a small bottle, which was found at 
 many graves, but not at all. This bottle was found to 
 contain some deposit of a reddish hue, which it has been 
 inferred was blood — the blood of the person there buried, 
 and who therefore must have died the death of a martyr. 
 It at once suggested itself, that it was an easy matter 
 for the monks to multiply the number of their images, 
 whenever they were in need of a new supply of relics 
 for the market, as they had only to place a red mark 
 upon any grave, or deposit one of these little bottles of 
 terra cotta beside it. I felt that at least I could have 
 no great dependence on them, even supposing the signs 
 
232 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 were real and not fictitious, for there is no authority — 
 no ground whatever — not the shadow of authority or 
 ground for supposing, that either the red spot or the 
 bottle are signs of martyrdom, or saintship, any more 
 than of that Christianity, which holds salvation by the 
 blood of the cross. If they are signs of anything par- 
 ticular, they seem rather the sign of men who died de- 
 pending on the blood of Christ ; and whose surviving 
 friends gave to their graves that sign of their faith. The 
 truth is, no dependence whatever can be placed on these 
 signs, and I afterwards found that they were laughed at, 
 by the more learned clergy of Rome. 
 
 Our interesting but most credulous guide, seemed 
 fully to believe what he was stating ; and when I en- 
 quired as to the signs or tests of a saint — the means by 
 which the bones of a saint — not a martyr but a saint — 
 might be discerned from those of ordinary Christians, 
 he replied with the most perfect simplicity, that when 
 they were first discovered they emitted a sweet odour. — 
 a delicious fragrance] that ravished the senses ; and as 
 this certainly was not the ordinary property of dead 
 men's bones, it seemed to argue — if true — something 
 most marvellous and saintly. But this was not all. 
 When these bones were brought forth into the upper 
 world, they wrought the most wonderful miracles, the 
 sick were healed, the dead were raised, the heretics were 
 converted at the touch or sight of these bones, thus de- 
 monstrated to be the relics of some saint. There is one 
 instance on record. It was the case of a skull — a flesh- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 233 
 
 less, eyeless, tongueless, noseless skull. It was ques- 
 tioned, after certain exorcisms, as to the rightful owner, 
 and it answered its name, its residence, and told the 
 circumstances under which its owner was decapitated, 
 dying a martyr's death ! What other persons may think 
 of such marvellous doings — such exquisite perfumes from 
 bones, and such interesting colloquies with skulls — it is 
 not for me to say or determine. The poor monk, who 
 guided us through these dreary Catacombs, seemed re- 
 ligiously to believe them, and he was not singular in 
 doing so. The enlightened portion of the ecclesiastical 
 body, however, are quite as unbelieving as Protestants 
 on these particulars. 
 
 It was not possible that a source of evidence, so cal- 
 culated to illustrate and prove the character of primitive 
 Christianity, as the inscriptions in the Catacombs, should 
 fail to attract universal attention. It was fortunate for 
 me that I had paid much close attention to the great 
 mass of such inscriptions, collected from the Catacombs, 
 and deposited with admirable arrangement in the Vati- 
 can, as otherwise I should have been taken by surprise, 
 and have been wholly unable to deal with the arguments 
 of my friends the Jesuits, derived from those inscrip- 
 tions. I was one day in the Collegio Romano, in com- 
 pany with the Librarian, the professor of Antiquities, or 
 Archaeology, the professor of Dogmatic Theology, and 
 the professor of Canon Law, and some others of the 
 priesthood. These learned, and courteous, and agreeable 
 persons were members of the order of Jesuits, and were 
 
234 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 an ornament to any society with which they were con- 
 nected ; and they were not likely, when shewing to me 
 some tablets taken from the Catacombs, and selected on 
 account of their inscriptions, and deposited in the Col- 
 legio Romano, to omit the fair opportunity, which they 
 offered, of impressing me with the value of those in- 
 scriptions as evidences of the ancient faith and practice 
 of the Church of Rome. 
 
 I stated frankly that I had spent some time in the 
 Catacombs, and that I had no great faith in the con- 
 clusions, which some of my kind friends of Rome habi- 
 tually deduced from them. 
 
 They asked me, what were the conclusions to which 
 I referred, and why I should doubt what seemed so 
 evident to them. 
 
 I replied, that "the Congregation of Relics" once came 
 to a decision, as to the relics found in the Catacombs — 
 that that decision was to the effect, that the appearance 
 of a palm-branch graven on a tombstone, and the ap- 
 pearance of a vessel tinged with blood, were to be re- 
 ceived as sure and certain signs of a martyr's grave. 
 Such was their decision. But since that decision was 
 recorded, much more has been brought to light, which 
 has proved the erroneous character of that conclusion of 
 the congregation. For example. Some of those vessels, 
 supposed thus to have been vessels of martyr's blood, 
 have been found on careful examination to be of a form 
 and make long subsequent to the age of persecution ; 
 and to exhibit signs painted or graven upon them, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 235 
 
 which could not have been so graven or painted till after 
 the times of martyrdom, inasmuch as they were not in- 
 vented till years long subsequent. And again, in refe- 
 rence to the palm-branch, it has been clearly ascertained 
 that the graving of a sprig or branch, which they call a 
 palm, is frequently found on the graves of those who 
 were undoubted heathens ; and also on the graves of 
 infants too young for martyrdom, and also on graves of 
 a period subsequent to the age of martyrdom. The 
 decision therefore of the congregation of relics, has been 
 altogether rejected of late years, even among all the 
 learned of the Roman Church. It is altogether rejected 
 even by yourselves. I added, that the decision of the 
 congregation was well enough for the few items of 
 knowledge then in their possession ; but inasmuch as 
 their confident decision is now universally exploded, it 
 had shaken all confidence on my part, in the peremptory 
 statements so frequently made at Rome, in reference to 
 the inscriptions found in the Catacombs. I felt con- 
 strained to examine and judge for myself. 
 
 I perceived that this remark on my part had its effect 
 — the effect which I desired— in lowering the tone of 
 confident assertion and bold statement, which my friends 
 had been exhibiting while we were looking over the 
 library. They at once stated, however, that they were 
 not referring to the decisions of the congregation of 
 relics, respecting the graves of martyrs as distinct from 
 the graves of other saints ; but to the inscriptions and 
 figures graven upon the tablets as indicative of the fact 
 
236 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that certain religious practices, against which Protes- 
 tants objected in the Church of Rome, and which were 
 made a ground of protestation and separation, were re- 
 ligious practices prevalent among those who were the 
 saints and martyrs of the primitive Church. On my 
 asking to what religious practice they especially alluded, 
 one of my friends replied, by referring to the practice 
 of invocation of saints — praying to the saints, adding 
 that there was no doubt as to the existence of the prac- 
 tice, as it was evidenced in the inscriptions. 
 
 I asked — to what inscription, and what words, he 
 alluded, as I had observed nothing of the kind. 
 
 He replied, by boldly stating that some of the tablets 
 were inscribed with the " orate pro nobis, 33 or rather, 
 correcting himself, " ora pro nobis 33 
 
 I said that I had seen nothing of the kind — that I 
 had carefully examined the great collection of inscribed 
 tablets deposited in the Vatican — that some of them, 
 indeed the larger portion, had no evidence or trace of 
 Christianity, beyond a cross or some anagram or emblem 
 of Christ, as the ship or the fish, or the Greek letter X, 
 or the A, and O, or some other of the various symbols 
 of the Christian faith — that some commenced with the 
 solitary word '* Pax " — some concluded with the words 
 " in pace" or f( in Christo" implying that the person 
 either lived or died in peace or in Christ, in the peace 
 of God or in the faith of Christ — that I had observed 
 many inscriptions stating that the person lived in peace, 
 " vixit in pace" and only one vivas in pace, expressive 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 237 
 
 of the sigh or wish of the survivor, that the person 
 might live in peace ; and very few others of the same 
 import. And that in the large variety of inscriptions 
 which I had had an opportunity of examining, I had 
 never seen or heard of more than one with either ora or 
 orate pro nobis. 
 
 My friend replied, that there was no doubt of the 
 fact that there were such inscriptions, and that they 
 actually possessed one in the college, and that he had 
 seen the inscription, so that there could be no question 
 as to the prevalence of the practice of saying the orate 
 pro nobis — praying to the saints to pray for us. 
 
 I reminded him, that there were collected about two 
 thousand inscriptions — that these were taken chiefly 
 from the monumental tablets of the Catacombs — thafc 
 they were cited as the representatives of the opinions of 
 the primitive Christians — and that all he was enabled 
 to say was, that among these two thousand he had seen 
 one with this inscription ! I then added, that consider- 
 ing the heathens of Rome prayed to their departed 
 heroes, it was no more than natural that some few of 
 these, on embracing Christianity, more in profession than 
 in reality, might ignorantly continue the practice and 
 pray to some departed saint ; and that such an exception 
 could prove nothing in favor of the practice — that so 
 isolated an instance as one inscription could only serve, 
 like an exception, to prove the rule, and the real wonder 
 was that more could not be found, and the fact that 
 more were not found among the thousands collected, 
 
238 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 proved powerfully that it was not the practice of the 
 primitive Christians to inscribe the ora pro nobis on their 
 tombs. The inference was that they did not pray to 
 the saints. 
 
 He answered this by saying, that I must at least 
 acknowledge, that the inscription implied that the saints 
 in heaven prayed for us — that after they died they did 
 not lose their holy sympathies for us, nor their love of 
 prayer for those whom they loved in life, and whom they 
 left behind them in this vale of tears ; and that if they 
 thus prayed for us, it could not be wrong for us to ask 
 their prayers, now that they are in heaven, as we had 
 often asked them while they were yet upon earth. 
 
 I replied, that even his own interpretation of the in- 
 scription, implied rather that the saints in heaven prayed 
 for the saints on earth — that they prayed for us — and 
 that I felt that there was a wide difference between our 
 supposing that they prayed for us, and our praying to 
 them, I believed that it was a very early opinion among 
 Christians, that the departed Christians or saints were 
 in the presence of God, and prayed to God for them ; 
 but I felt this was widely different from our praying to 
 them— offering those prayers to them, which should be 
 offered only to God. 
 
 He expressed himself greatly pleased, at my acknow- 
 ledgment of such opinions as being prevalent very early 
 in the Church ; and he spoke as if he thought there 
 was little or no difference between their praying for us, 
 and our praying to them ; and then went on to say that 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 239 
 
 there was a marked distinction to be observed in the 
 inscriptions on the monuments of the Catacombs. One 
 class, he stated, contained such expressions as requiescat 
 in pace — may he rest in peace — may he be refreshed, 
 may he be comforted ; all this class are the monuments 
 of Christian persons generally, and these inscriptions 
 are prayers for the dead. The other class are the monu- 
 ments of martyrs, who pass at once into the beatific 
 vision of God, and who therefore do not need those 
 prayers for their peace, refreshment or comfort. There- 
 fore those prayers are omitted ; and this was the real 
 cause of there being so many monuments without 
 prayers. It was because there were so many martyrs. 
 
 I said that I could not assent to his ideas of either 
 class — that the fact of there being no prayers for the 
 dead, or to the dead, inscribed on the monuments, was 
 to me an evidence that the Christians of those days 
 neither prayed for the dead nor to the dead ; and that 
 this was a much easier way of accounting for the omission, 
 than supposing that all these were the monuments of 
 martyrs, a supposition for which, as far as I could judge, 
 there was not the faintest foundation. And as for the 
 statement that the words requiescat in pace, and such 
 similar expressions were inscribed on the tablets, I 
 could only say I had never seen such among all I had 
 examined, that is, among all the collection in the Vatican, 
 a collection larger than all other collections in the 
 world combined. Such an instance might be there, I 
 heard there was, but I saw nothing like it ; on one tablet 
 
240 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 indeed I had seen the natural and loving ejaculation 
 vivas in pace, may you have peace ! and this appeared 
 to me no more than a wish expressed to the dead, rather 
 than a prayer addressed to God. I added that I could 
 only speak of what I had myself seen. It was possible 
 he might have had larger and better opportunities of 
 informing himself, and that he had probably examined 
 them more closely; but that I apprehended there might 
 be some mistake on his part, and I would therefore feel 
 obliged by his shewing me some inscription of the kind. 
 
 The reply to this was, conducting me to several tablets, 
 and pointing to one on which was rudely engraved or 
 scratched, the figure of a man in a kneeling posture. 
 
 My friend pointing to this, and observing that I was 
 silent and could make nothing of it, said that there was 
 a kind of monumental language well known and under- 
 stood — that it was derived from a comparison of a large 
 number of inscriptions — that when a tablet was found 
 without a prayer for the dead, it was to be regarded as 
 the tablet of a martyr ; and that as martyrs go at once 
 into the vision of God, they do not need any prayers, 
 and therefore no prayers are inscribed on their tablets ; 
 that instead of such prayers there was some emblem, 
 as a representation of a person standing in the attitude 
 of prayer, or as the figure of a kneeling man, that is, 
 the figure of a man praying to the martyred dead ; and 
 thus embodying not indeed the words but the idea of 
 the ora pro nobis. He said that this was a matter very 
 well known and understood, by those who were ac- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 241 
 
 quainted with the language of the monumental inscrip- 
 tions. 
 
 I eould not but smile at this statement. I had seen 
 so many of these monuments without anything that 
 could imply a prayer for the dead, that I had concluded 
 from thence that the primitive Christians did not cherish 
 such « practice as praying for the dead, in the age of 
 the Catacombs. But my friend of the order of Jesuits, 
 assigned as the reason for so marked an omission, that all 
 such monuments are those of the martyrs, who were in 
 no need of such prayers ! Thus variously do different 
 minds look upon the same things. 
 
 I remarked in a doubting tone, that my friend seemed 
 to regard the kneeling or praying figure as the repre- 
 sentation, not of the martyr, but of some living friend. 
 
 He said that the monumental language demanded this. 
 A martyr could not require prayer, and therefore the 
 figure could not represent the martyr himself — that it 
 must therefore represent some one else, perhaps his 
 friend, or relative, or follower, who erected the tablet, 
 and who engraved his own representation on the tablet, 
 to shew himself in the act of praying to the departed 
 and glorified martyr — that this was the well-understood 
 language of such inscriptions, and that I might depend 
 on this interpretation. 
 
 I replied, that his process of reasoning did not strike 
 me as very logical. He found tablets without prayers 
 for the dead, and at once concluded that they were the 
 monuments of martyrs who needed no prayers ; and 
 
 R 
 
242 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 now he found a figure of a praying man, and at once 
 concluded it could not represent the man buried beneath 
 the monument, but the living man who erected the 
 monument. I understood that the monument, was 
 always the monument of the dead — that the inscription 
 was always with reference to the dead — that any picture 
 or image, or other representation, was designed for the 
 dead ; and that it was quite new to me, to hear of their 
 representing the living. I regarded it as representing 
 the dead, and accordingly in the monuments of the 
 Catacombs, such figures are always of the same sex as 
 the dead person. 
 
 [In a subsequent conversation at my own residence, 
 with one of my friends from the Collegio Romano, this 
 subject was renewed, and I was not a little surprised at 
 finding a new and different interpretation given of this 
 figure. It was then argued that the kneeling figure 
 represented the buried dead — that it represented him 
 as kneeling in prayer, and that it thus shewed that the 
 saints and martyrs in heaven pray, and that as they 
 cannot pray for themselves, so they must be praying 
 for us. In the Collegio Romano, the figure was said to 
 represent the living ; but at my own residence, it was 
 said to represent the dead or departed ! These incon- 
 sistencies are very frequent when arguing with different 
 persons.] 
 
 My friend replied, that I was quite mistaken in re- 
 garding the figure as the representation of the departed 
 one, for that the known language of inscriptions re- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 243 
 
 quired it should be the representation of the living 
 Christian, who erected the tablet ; and it was designed 
 to shew his belief in the martyr's enjoyment of the 
 beatific vision of God, and that he was thus praying to 
 the martyr to pray to God for him — asking for the in- 
 tercession of the martyr — really, an or a pro nobis ; and 
 it was thus a clear proof or justification of i( the Catho- 
 lic Church," in praying to the departed saints to pray 
 for us. 
 
 I answered this by saying, that I could not think the 
 figure represented the living Christian who erected the 
 tablet — that such an interpretation was forced and 
 unnatural, for that it was the custom of all ages, and of 
 all nations, to represent the dead rather than the living 
 on their monuments. I could not but think that the 
 figure was designed to represent the dead, as one who 
 had lived and died a praying man. 
 
 He at once caught at my words, and said that if I 
 regarded the figure as representing the departed saint, 
 then I must acknowledge it as evidence, that in the 
 primitive Church they thought the departed saints 
 prayed ; and that as they needed not to pray for them- 
 selves, they must be praying for us. 
 
 I said that I did not regard the figure as represent- 
 ing the departed saint as praying for us in heaven ; but 
 as having been a praying man in his life ; — that as the 
 words " in peace," and " in Christ," implied that the 
 departed had lived or died in the peace of God, and in 
 the faith of Christ, so the kneeling posture might imply 
 
 r 2 
 
244 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that he lived or died in prayer. I thought this the natu- 
 ral interpretation of the figure ; and 1 said that in Eng- 
 land, and I believed in other countries, and certainly in 
 the Church of St. Peter at Rome, the monumental 
 statues always represent the departed persons — -that it 
 was usual to represent them, not as they were when 
 dead, but as they were when alive — the warrior as a 
 warrior — the orator as an orator — the painter as a 
 painter — the clergyman as a clergyman ; and I observed 
 that all the monumental figures of popes and nuns in 
 St. Peter's, represented them as popes or nuns — repre- 
 sented them as they were on earth, and not as they are 
 supposed to be in heaven ; and that in the same way 
 we ought to regard this kneeling figure, as representing 
 the departed Christian as he lived or died on earth, a 
 praying man. He was represented kneeling, to shew 
 he was a man of prayer — a Christian man. There is an 
 example of it in scripture, where the conversion of St. 
 Paul is described in the simple words, " Behold, he 
 prayeth ! " 
 
 There was no direct reply to this, but it was stated 
 that I could not den}' that the saints departed prayed 
 for the Christians still on earth ; and that it was cus- 
 tomary in the primitive Church to pray for the dead. 
 
 I said that I believed it was a very early practice in 
 the Church to pray for the dead — that I thought it a 
 very foolish, though perhaps natural practice — that it 
 always seemed to me to be praying when it was too 
 late, like praying for yesterday, for a thing gone by — 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 245 
 
 but that cat all events praying for the dead, was a very 
 different thing from praying to the dead — that the two 
 seemed very inconsistent, the former being wholly use- 
 less as being too late, and the latter idolatrous, as offer- 
 ing a prayer to a creature which ought only to be 
 offered to the Creator. 
 
 It was evident that we were not likely to agree. The 
 truth was that, surrounded and assailed as I was, by four 
 of the reverend professors in their own College, I was 
 not disposed to be as gentle and as cautious as I might 
 otherwise have been. One of the party called on me 
 some days afterwards, in company with a lay-brother, 
 and we resumed the subject in detail ; but there was 
 nothing very important elicited. 
 
 As much use is made, by the priests at Rome, of 
 arguments derived from the Catacombs, a few more 
 words may be added on the subject. Those Catacombs 
 have for centuries been in the possession of the monks 
 of certain convents, and no one is permitted to enter 
 without the attendance of one or more of these ; and they 
 are constantly talking of new and wonderful discoveries 
 of inscriptions, and relics and chapels, which are sure 
 to confound all opponents of the Church of Rome. In 
 truth, they are able to invent any discovery that may 
 suit them, and make any arrangements within the 
 Catacombs, that may serve their purpose. They have 
 exclusive charge of the Catacombs, and they cannot be 
 regarded as over-scrupulous in their reported discoveries. 
 
 It is not however in the Catacombs themselves, that 
 
246 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 an anxious and earnest enquirer can obtain much satis- 
 factory information, respecting the practices or opinions 
 of the first Christians. It may be, and undoubtedly is, 
 satisfactory to one's curiosity, to witness those dark 
 recesses which were the scenes and theatre of some of 
 the most striking events in Christian story. But all, or 
 almost all, the monuments — the real mementos of the 
 past have been removed. The marble slabs that sealed 
 the graves — the tablets with their inscriptions, and all 
 else that was real and certain — all that could be 
 depended on as likely to throw light on the past, have 
 been removed. Some have found their way into private 
 collections, a few have a place in the Capitol, a few more 
 may be seen preserved in the Jesuit's College, while the 
 great mass has been removed to the Vatican, where they 
 form a great collection, great in number, in importance 
 and in interest. It may indeed take away somewhat of 
 the interest of such monuments, the seeing them, not in 
 their own position beside the graves of the Catacombs; 
 but still as there is no security against the Catacombs 
 falling in and burying them for ever, it was of immense 
 importance that they should be removed to some place 
 of safety, where they may be preserved for ever. No 
 place could be more suitably selected than their present 
 position in the Vatican. 
 
 In the long gallery, called, I believe, la galleria lapi- 
 daria, by which the series of galleries of Sculpture are 
 approached, there are said to be deposited and exhibited 
 for examination, four thousand monuments or works of 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 247 
 
 antiquity. Of these there is a very considerable portion 
 connected with Christian antiquity. Inserted in the 
 wall on one side are a vast number of monuments, 
 tablets, inscriptions, being memorials of the heathen 
 dead. In the wall on the other hand, are inserted a 
 similar series of analogous monuments, inscriptions and 
 tablets, the memorials of the Christian dead. The en- 
 quirer thus possesses at a glance all he requires for a 
 comparison of the practices and opinions of both Hea- 
 thens and Christians on these occasions. There is but 
 little difference between them, beyond that of the Hea- 
 thens beginning with the words " Divis Manibus" and 
 those of the Christian ending with the words " in 'pace." 
 Nor indeed ought much to be expected. The ties of 
 near relationship are the same, whether among Heathens 
 or among Christians. The natural love of husband and 
 wife — the mutual bond of parent and child — the pure 
 affection of brother and sister are one and the same, 
 whether among Heathens or among Christians ; and as 
 the griefs are as sad, and the mourning as deep in one 
 as in the other, so the language of affectionate and 
 sorrowing remembrance — the expressions of monumental 
 inscriptions must be expected to be much the same, 
 whether on the tablets of the cinerary urns of Heathen 
 Rome, or on the monuments beside the Catacomb-graves 
 of Christian Rome. * 
 
 * Among the heathen inscriptions, is one which struck me as a beautiful 
 memorial from a husband to his wife. It was to the effect, that never during 
 their union, had she done anything to displease him but once, and that was 
 by dying. 
 
248 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Day after day, and week after week, have I paused in 
 this gallery to examine these monumental inscriptions. 
 It always occurred to me, that if a belief in the suffer- 
 ings of the dead in purgatory — if a belief in the efficacy 
 of the prayers of the living in behalf of the dead — if a 
 belief in the matter of fact of the departed saints praying 
 for the living — if a belief in the efficacy of any praying to 
 or invocation of the departed saints — was held among 
 the Christians of the Church in those early ages, when 
 the Church used to hide herself — used to celebrate her 
 worship — and used to bury her dead in the Catacombs, 
 there ought to be, and there should be, some evidence of 
 such belief in the inscriptions so numerous to be found 
 in the Catacombs. The absence — the total and perfect 
 absence of everything of the kind, seems to argue power- 
 fully that no such things entered into the religious belief 
 of the Christians of those ages. 
 
 There are two things observable in those inscriptions. 
 
 The first is, that while some begin with the single 
 word pax, almost all of them end with the words npace 
 or in pace, or in christo, or some cross or other ana- 
 gram of Christ, expressing the same thing. There is 
 seldom any word connected with this. The inscription 
 will generally be found to contain the name of the dead, 
 and the age or number of years he may have lived, as 
 thus, " To Julius a pious and well-deserving son he 
 lived XX years in peace ;" or " To Evodia she lived 
 XXX years in Christ.'" A careful examination of a 
 large number of these inscriptions, gave the impression 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 249 
 
 that the intention was to convey the idea, that the 
 person had died "in peace," that is, in the peace of God, 
 or tf in Christ," that, is in the faith of Christ ; and that 
 nothing more or less was intended. 
 
 It is observable, that in a modern grave-yard in any 
 Roman Catholic country, there are always expressions 
 in the monumental inscriptions, which intimate the 
 belief of the Church of Rome. There is a request to 
 the passing traveller, to offer a prayer for the dead — 
 there is a statement setting forth that it is a good thing 
 to pray for the dead — there is a prayer that the dead 
 may rest in peace — there is a request for the assist- 
 ing prayers of the saints. These and others of a similar 
 tendency, are found in every cemetery in Roman Catho- 
 lic countries. But there is nothing like this — nothing 
 that has the faintest resemblance of this or of any 
 opinion approaching to any of these, is to be found 
 among the innumerable inscriptions collected from the 
 Catacombs. The whole collection of inscriptions thus 
 argues unanswerably, that those opinions that have been 
 of late years so universally received in the Church of 
 Rome, were wholly unknown in the primitive Church. 
 
 The other peculiarity in these inscriptions which de- 
 serves attention, is the system of graving signs or sym- 
 bols on the tablets. The cross, the ship, the fish are 
 frequent; and still more that common symbol of the 
 cross as the Greek X, with the R, as the two first letters 
 of x/xo-tos, combined with the A, and n, the whole being 
 intended to represent the dead as having died in the 
 
250 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 faith of Christ, the Alpha and the Omega. The ship, 
 like the ark of Noah, seems to represent the Church ; 
 and the dead is thus described as one saved in the 
 Church of God. The fish, l%0v?, a word composed of 
 the initial letters of lyjasq XpivTos ©es vioq 2&>ti^, was a 
 very favorite symbol, and accordingly sometimes appears 
 on the monumental tablets, implying that the dead had 
 died in Christ. The dove is often added as the emblem 
 of peace ; and Jonah and the fish as the emblem of the 
 resurrection. Indeed, in all those inscriptions, whatever 
 form they assume, there is conveyed the one plain and 
 simple statement, that the person who lay buried be- 
 neath the tablet, was a Christian; and all these several 
 forms, assumed perhaps from the varying tastes of in- 
 dividuals, seem to regard it as enough to describe the 
 dead as having died in the peace of God, and in the 
 faith of Christ. 
 
 This simplicity of primitive Christianity, is a very 
 interesting characteristic of those early ages. Indeed it 
 is quite refreshing to the spirit, which is so oppressed 
 by all the garish shew and complicated ceremonials of 
 the present times. It is absolutely a relief — a throwing 
 off a burthen to let the mind turn away from a series of 
 difficult and complicated doctrines — from a mass of dog- 
 matical mysteries and scholastical subtleties — from a 
 round of symbolical forms and unintelligible ceremonies, 
 so associated with every phase of religion at Rome ; 
 and to let it rest for awhile amidst the simplicity that 
 characterised the religion of those who were " the desti- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 251 
 
 ■ 
 tute, afflicted, tormented " of the Church, and were 
 
 compelled to hide themselves "in dens and caves of the 
 earth." The men who were faithful amidst the fiercest 
 persecutions, who counted it all joy to be able to wor- 
 ship God in the darkness of the Catacombs, and there 
 lived, and there died, were content to live in the peace 
 of God, and to die in the faith of Christ, and to inscribe 
 on the tombs of those " who resisted unto blood, striving 
 against sin," the simple words in pace or in christo. 
 It seems to imply that the times are changed, and that 
 we are changed with them when we yearn for more. 
 
 FINIS. 
 
LATELY PUBLISHED. 
 
 A PILGRIMAGE TO ROME. 
 
 By the Rev. M. HOBART SEYMOUR, M.A. 
 
 Second Edition. 
 In post 8vo., with Engravings, 
 
 Price 12s. cloth. 
 

 BX 1765 -S535 1849b 
 
 Seymour, Michael Hobartp 
 1800-1874* 
 
 Mornings 
 3t Rome? 
 
 BiriorisS the Jesuits 
 
 Boston College 
 Libraries 
 
 Chestnut Hill, Mass. 02167 
 
.