\ ■<(C ^vk' fin »^jL,O.Ji^J mc'^^ '!sy:kuy\/ tu mm.' . M' ''^%^^:^: 4^.^' 'o^6^^^7' '^^lk^te^4':'H^Ml^ -m .' ^^^' .VV,i^V!^^:^r^^''i^- i^ iv i' L' •y.-^p' wWy i'-^"^ "i:^- % W^^ ^ •^iT^^ r^^>^ » i=y i^:l=: __v ■<*>-- ^x. iisk*& '^• c> THE EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSES OF LORDS AND COMMONS, APPOINTED IN THE SESSIONS OF 1824 AND 1895, TO INQUIRE INTO THE STATE OF IRELAND. BOSTON COLLEGE LIBRARY CHEST>JUT HILL, MASS. LONDON: JOHN MURRAY, ALBEMARLE-STREET. MDCCCXXV, LONDON: Prinled by WILLIAM CLOWESJ. Noithumbeiland court. ADVERTISEMENT. Each question and answer in this volume is the same, word for word, as in the original Reports ; and no part of the evidence of a witness has been omitted without the cause of the omission being stated in a note. 110 CONTENTS, HOUSE OF COMMONS, Page Mr. John Dunn 1 The Rev. Michael Collins 47 Anthony F. Blake, Esq 1 17 Daniel O'Connell, Esq 141 — 246 Richard Sheil, Esq 207 Hugh O'Connor, Esq : . 292 Lord Killeen . ■ 300 The Right Rev. Dr. Doyle 316 The Most Rev. Dr. Curtis 406 The Most Rev. Dr. Murray 407 The Most Rev. Dr. Kelly 425 The Right Rev. Dr. Magaurin .... 479 HOUSE OF LORDS. Anthony F. Blake, Esq 501 Daniel O'Connell, Esq . 515 The Right Rev. Dr. Doyle 550 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Veneris, 4° die Junii, 1824. The Right Hon. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR. Mr. Joh7i Dunn called in ; and Examined. WHERE do you reside ?— At Ballynakill, in the Queen's County. How far is that from the county of Kilkenny ? — About a quarter of an Irish mile. How far from the barony of Galmoy ? — Eight or nine miles. You are a Roman Catholic ? — I am. You have lately acted as a commissioner under the new Tithe Act ?— I have. For what parishes ? — For the parish of Stradbally, the parish of Timahoe and Fossey, and the parish of Ballynakill. Are there a considerable number of Protestants parishioners in the parish of Stradbally? — There are- Have you acted as secretary to the meetings of the Ca- tholics of Queen's County ? — I have acted as secretary very often. Do you rent much land ? — I do, some hundred acres. You are acquainted with the feelings generally of the lower orders of the people, particularly Catholics ? — Yes, I am*. Is there any feeling of dissatisfaction amongst them on account of their condition, with regard to the state of the laws ? — Very great. Do they feel any practical inconvenience from the laws as they exist, as bearing upon their own class ? — Unquestionably they do. * Some pages of Mr. Dunn's Evidence are here omitted. They relate to the disturbances and the collection of tithes ; which subjects have now ceased to be of the great interest they were last year^ in consequence of the suppression of the Insurrection and the general operation of the New Tithe Act. The evidence taken by the Committee is so voluminous, that some omissions are absolutely un- avoidable : but, as it is the intention of this Work to give the evidence that principally bears on the Catholic Question, no omissions of this evidence will be made ; and, whatever has been said against the Question will be introduced into the text, as well as what has been said in favour of it^ with the strictest im- partiality. The evidence bearing on other distinct subjects, Avill hereafter be selected and published, if a work of this sort seems to be required by the Public. B )i MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Do you find that they are acquainted generally with their political circumstances ? — Generally speaking, they are very sensible that they are debarred the privileges the rest of His Majesty's subjects enjoy. From what privileges do you consider that the lower orders are debarred ? — They feel, in common with all the other Catholic people, that they have no chance of getting forward in the state ; and instances occur very often to satisfy them, that if they had the same privileges as the other classes of His Majesty's subjects, they would have similar chances of promoting their objects in life. Has any instance occurred in your neighbourhood, in which a Protestant of the lower class has advanced in life? — I think a very singular one ; a farmer's son, of rather the lower class, some few years back, went to Dublin, and got a clerkship in a house of business, was a well-conducted young man, got married, and into the corporation ; from his being a Pro- testant he had the honour to fill the ofiice of high sheriff of the city of Dublin, a very short time back, and is now a knight ; there is not a Roman Catholic around the neigh- bourhood that is not sensible that no such chance for any of them exists. Is this occurrence matter of conversation amongst them ? — Yes. Do you find, from your communication with them, they are well acquainted with the laws that bear upon them ? — I find by conversation with them, that they are fully sensible that they have not equal privileges with their other fellow- subjects. Could you mention any instances in which they display their feelings, either on public occasions or elsewhere ? — The instances are so numerous, it is hard to particularize any ; in all their conversations they will express their con- viction, that there are not the same chances for them as for the rest of His Majesty's subjects ; they will mention instances of such and such persons having fortunately got on in the world from their being Protestants. Do you mean this representation to extend to the lowest orders of peasantry ? — I mean to apply it to all classes of Catholics in Ireland. To those residing in the poorest cabins ? — ^To all classes, generally speaking. Do you think they occupy themselves in conversing upon those matters ? — I believe they do. Do they take a great interest in all public events that relate to them ?--Yes. MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 3 In the temper of mind which you have described, would they not be disposed very often to attribute the rise of any body who was a Protestant, to that circumstance, and to imagine that they were excluded from rising in the same way with him, when in point of fact they were not, when his rising had nothing whatever to do with his being a Pro- testant ? — That may occur ; but they are fully sensible that there is no chance for them under the existing laws. But still the chance might be for them, as well as for a Protestant ? — 'They are aware that they could not have a chance under the existing laws. Do you think that this sensibility to this disqualification extends over all the Catholic peasantry of Ireland ? — Generally speaking, I think it does, according to the best information I have. Has it been a matter of consideration with you, whether or not it does extend to all ? — It has been a matter of consi- deration with me ; the result of all that I know on the subject is, to believe they take a lively interest in all their affairs. Is that an opinion you have formed from your own observa- tion, as well as from your different friends that are acquainted with their feelings ? — It is. They would feel and value very highly, whatever went to adjust and assimilate the laws, so as to put all parties and sects upon an equal footing ? — They would. Will you describe to the Committee in what way such a measure would have a practical operation ? — I think it would tend in a great measure to compose the minds of the whole of the people. I am not prepared to say that it would exclu- sively be a measure that would restore every thing to what is most desirable, but it would, I think, go a great way in doing so. Would it not contribute to make the upper orders of Ca- tholics satisfied, and to lead them to bring their influence to bear in contributing to make the lower orders more con- tented ? — Certainly it would. Would it not have a considerable influence upon each class of Catholics, such for instance, as the Catholic bar, the Ca- tholic gentry, the Catholic farmers ? — I think it would. Would not rendering the Catholic farmers contented, with regard to their political condition, have a considerable effect in enabling them to lead the lower orders into more regular habits of obedience to the laws ? — I think it would have a decided effect in making them exceedingly more anxious, of course, to see that the lower classes should be as obedient as they could make them to the laws. B 2 ^ MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Do you think that the measures that have been adopted for putting down disturbances have been successful in establishing permanently a better disposition on the part of the people ?— I am afraid not. Have you any acquaintance with the disturbed districts ? — Yes. Have you been in them lately ? — Immediately prior to my coming- over. Do those measures produce any soreness of feeling upon the people ? — It produces soreness, because the class of men, that I really believe has nothing to do with the disturbance, I mean the actual occupiers of the land, is made to pay the ex- pense attending upon it. Do those measures produce more than a temporary effect upon the lower orders, with respect to the peace of the country ? — I can only speak my opinion as to that ; I am afraid they only produce a temporary effect ; while the power is over them, it keeps them tranquil'. Can you state to the Committee, whether the prophecies that have been circulated of Pastorini have produced any effect in the country with which you are acquainted? — The people laugh at them ; nothing beyond that. The pastoral address of the Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese lately disabused them of any idea that they might havehad of their truth. What has been the opinion entertained with regard to the miracles in your country ? — I think it has caused among the people a profound veneration for the Deity, to whom alone they attribute the working of miracles, not to men. They believe that those miracles have been performed? — There is a general belief, that, in certain cases, people have been restored. You believe that those miracles have been generally be- lieved amongst the Roman Catholics in that part of Ireland r — They have. The miracles of Prince Hohenlohe ? — They do not consider them the miracles of Prince Hohenlohe or any man. You stated, that the effect produced by the belief of those miracles, has been to give the people a more profound reve- rence for the Supreme Being ; is that the only impression you believe it has produced ?— I do not know of any other ; it makes them more attached to the discharge of their reli- gious duties. Are not you apprehensive of this, that a particular inter- position of Providence, a miraculous interposition of Provi- dence, being believed by the lower class of people to have MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. O taken place at this particular time, may be attributed by them to causes which connect themselves with the present disturbances and the present state of society in Ireland ? — I do believe it has not had that effect in my quarter of the country ; I do believe it has not. If you could put yourself for a moment in the situation of an uninformed and ignorant peasant; do not you believe there have been attempts made of late to excite those people to fresh acts of disturbance ? — I have great apprehension that it has been so ; but I am not able to state that. Do you not believe, that whatever may have been the ori- ginal causes, that religious motives have been introduced ? — I do believe not in either the county Kilkenny or the Queen's County ; I never could find that religion had any thing to do with the disturbances. Not even in the progress of it ?— No. Do you not believe, that persons engaged in those distur- bances have been almost exclusively Roman Catholics ? — I believe they have ; I believe, the body of the people being Roman Catholics, that those persons are of that communion. Do you not believe, that almost necessarily when those dis- turbances, from whatever cause, had been once produced, that religious motives must intermingle in their views ? — With respect to what happened to Mr. Marum, who was a Catholic, I do believe the death of that man Avas accelerated by his interference in taking the lands of the Mr. Steeles', who were of the established religion ; and with that impres- sion on my mind, I cannot think that religion had any thing whatever to do with that disturbance. Do not you believe the object of circulating the prophecies of Pastorini was to induce the people to expect some distur- bance in 1825 ? — I do not know how to form an opinion ; I never knew any person of the 'least respectability who lent any assistance in circulating them, but on the contrary, they treated them with ridicule. Do not you believe, that the persons who circulate those prophecies have some object in doing it ? — I believe they must have some object. Do not you believe, that that object was to assist the dis- turbances that were expected to take place ? — I cannot form an opinion. Do you believe it was without any object ? — I cannot sup- pose but there must be some object. Has it never come to your mind to ask why those Pastorini's prophecies have been circulated ? — I have constantly put the uestion to myself, and within the whole routine of my 6 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. district I never could find that those prophecies had any ex- istence. Do you not believe there is reason to apprehend that those prophecies have been circulated? — I have no reason to believe that they would be extensively circulated. Nor any apprehension that they would ? — I had some ap- prehension. To what do you attribute the Roman Catholic bishops hav- ing thought it necessary to address their flocks with regard to those prophecies? — I must attribute it to their having know- ledge that the works were circulated to excite bad blood in the people ; 1 must attribute it to that. Do you think that those were false apprehensions on their part, or do you think they were well founded ? — I do believe, in the county of Kildare, they were well founded. Why do you suppose that particularly in the county of Kil- dare, which was one of many disturbed districts, those prophe- cies have had that effect ? — It was there that I found the pas- toral address of the bishop, taking notice of those prophecies, had been addressed. The Roman Catholic clergy were so apprehensive that those prophecies of Pastorini might have increased the disturbance in the county of Kildare, that they addressed to them the pas- toral letter ; and you think yourself, that they must have sup- posed that the people in the county of Kildare were affected by those prophecies ; then on what rational ground can you state, that the people in the county of Kildare should be affected by those prophecies, and the lower classes in the other parts of Ireland should not be affected by them ? — Because I have been repeatedly informed, that in the county of Kildare, what is called ribbonism, had found its way there; but I cannot discover that in other parts of Ireland it had prevailed. It was an association that, I understood, bound themselves by an oath. Whenever the system of orangeism sets up, the other begins ; and when once they begin, no one can say where they end. If in anyparts of Ireland Pastorini's prophecies have at all con- nected themselves with the disturbances, do not you think that the belief of a particular interposition of Providence by miracles to have taken place in the Roman Catholic church at the same time might have operated to augment those disturbances, and to induce the people to give credit to the prophecies, and to think that something particular was about to take place at this particular time ? — If the Roman Catholic church, or any minister of that church, were to preach to the people, that those prophecies were valuable, that might be so ; but when MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 7 I find them treat those prophecies with ridicule and contempt, I cannot believe that that is the case. For instance, in the county of Kildare, where you think the Roman Catholic people were affected by those prophecies ; do not you think, that upon the minds of persons so circum- stanced, the belief that miracles were working at this day in the Roman Catholic church would operate very much to augment the effect produced by Pastorini's prophecies ? If Pastorini's prophecies were at all sanctioned by the authorities of the Roman Catholic church, it would be so ; but when I find them treated with disrespect, I cannot believe so. Do you believe, that in the disturbed districts of Kilkenny, the people give credit to those prophecies, or do not ? I do believe the body of the people do not give credit to those prophecies. Do you think they believe that the present church establish- ment is likely to be permanent ? — That is a question very hard for me to answer ; from all the knowledge I have of the feel- ing of the people, I have no reason to suppose that they have any expectation of the present church establishment bein"- in any respect invaded or disturbed. Do you mean to extend that answer to the disturbed dis- tricts in Cork, Limerick, and Kerry? — I am not informed but by the public reports, of what may be the condition of Cork Limerick, and Kerry. Do you mean to express an opinion that ribbonism exists in general only in those districts, where orangeism had pre- ceded it ? — Yes. You do not mean to make that observation general ? I con- fine myself to those parts of the country with which I am ac- quainted. The Committee understand from you that there is no rib- bonism in Kilkenny ? — I do not believe there is. There is no orangeism in Kilkenny ? — Very little. Is there in Kildare ? — I cannot have a knowledge of it. In the Queen's County ? — I cannot have a knowledge of it. The Committee understand from you, that you thou^-ht there was ribbonism in Kildare ? — I stated the reason upon which I formed that belief. Have you any knowledge that there was orangeism in Kil- dare ? — Unless by public report. Can you have knowledge upon the subject ? — I cannot. Then do you or do you not attribute ribbonism in Kildare, to there having been orangeism ? — My reason is, that where- ever orangeism raises itself to a certain height, there I believe associations of ribbonism find their way immediatelv. 8 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Did you ever hear as to ribbonism havin£^ been very exten- sive in the province of Connaiight? — I heard it was so. Do you believe that orangeism had been known or did exist in the province of Connaught at all, before the ribbonism? — I do believe it did exist both preceding and subsequently. Is the Committee to understand that you consider the pre- valence of ribbonism in the province of Connaught to which you referred, as attributable to the antecedent existence of orangeism in the same part ? — I am not at all acquainted with the province of Connaught, so as to enable me to speak dis- tinctly upon that subject. Have you ever heard that orangeism did exist in any and what part of the province of Connaught, antecedent to that system of ribbonism ? — I do not know when either the orange or the ribbon system commenced in the province of Con- naught ; I am a long way from it, and have very little inter- course with it. Will you specify any part of the province of Connaught, in which you conceive orangeism to flourish or even to exist ? — I have already stated, that I am very little acquainted with it ; I have only the report that I may take up from the public press on that subject. Will you specify, amongst those parts of the country of which you have been hitherto speaking, any one spot in which orangeism had existed, and in which you conceive it has occa- sioned the existence of ribbonism? — Orangeism did exist, to a considerable extent, at Mountmelick, in the Queen's County, and at Mountrath. But not in Kilkenny ? — I do not think it has got much in the county of Kilkenny ; there is a report that orange business is going on in the city of Kilkenny, and in other small towns. Will you mention, whether Mountmelick and Mountrath are the seats of any of the disturbances, of which you have hitherto spoken in your examination ? — Mountmelick and Mountrath have been almost^the scenes of annual disturbance in the Queen's County. You have been speaking to day of certain disturbances ; have Mountmelick and Mountrath been the scenes of any of those disturbances ? — Of those particular disturbances I do not say they liave, they have been the seats of annual disturbance. Have there not, for several years past, annually been dis- turbances, and sometimes sangviinary disturbances at Mount- melick, and sometimes at Mountrath ? — There have. Were not those upon particular days in the year ? — They happened upon particular days. Will you mention the days ? — The tv/elfth of July is gene- MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 9 rally the celebrated day upon which those occurrences take place. Is the Committee to understand, that the ribbon system pre- vailed generally throughout the year, in those places ? — No ; because I have already stated, that from all the information! have been able to collect, the ribbon system has got into nei- ther the county of Kilkenny, nor the Queen's County. Then, is the Committee to collect from your evidence, that in reference to the district of which you have been speaking, you think the orange system has got into Mountmelick and Mountrath only, and the ribbon system into no part ? — I think orangeism has got into almost every town in the Queen's County, but those places are the grand depot of them. But that the ribbon system has not got into any part of the dis- trict of which you have been speaking ? — Not to my knowledge. You have stated, that there was ribbonism in the county of Kildare, and that you derive that opinion from the titular bishop of Kildare's pastoral address ; how did you derive that opinion ; from that address, from the general reasoning of it, or from its positive assertion ? — From his general reasoning, and from his cautioning the people against entering into such a dreadful society. I heard that they committed outrages, by impeding the canal boats ; and dreading that the outrages would lead possibly to the production of that system, he felt it his duty to caution them against it. He cautioned them not to enter into any such society ? — He cautioned them against the evil of it, and he cautioned them not to enter into such association, or any thing that would make them riot ; and, generally, to be obedient to the laws. Does that state, that he has any reason to expect they had entered into such associations ? — I am not aware that he has stated that he had any reason. Will you state to the Committee, in what instances, and in what places, to your knowledge, ribbonism has foUov/ed the establishment of orange lodges? — To my knowledge in no case; I cannot speak of my own knowledge. In what place have you heard that ribbonism has followed the introduction of orangeism? — In the north of Ireland. But not in any of the counties with which you are acquainted? — Not in the places of which I have been speaking. Is not the disposition to believe in Pastorini's prophecies alluded to by Bishop Doyle in his address ?— Yes. Have you any reason to believe that the prophecies of Pas- torini have been circulated in the districts of the Queen's County and county of Kilkenny, with which you are acquainted ? — No reason whatever ; and I believe they have not ; I have 10 MR. JfOHN DUNN EXAMINED. taken great pains to ascertain if I could trace them, and I could not. You stated in the course of your examination, that it is your impression, that the body of the people do not believe the pro- phecies of Pastorini ; upon what grounds is that impression formed ? — I stated, that I believed that the body of the people do not believe in the prophecies of Pastorini, and I formed that opinion from hearing their expression to that effect. In what county have you heard the body of the people ex- press themselves to that effect ? — I should not have used the term " body of the people ;" but those that I came into con- tact with in Queen's County and the county of Kilkenny. Have you conversed pretty generally with the people of those counties upon the subject of Pastorini's prophecies? — I have very often conversed with them, and endeavoured to get at what their opinions and feelings were, and I have found that they paid, generally speaking, no attention to them. Have you found that they are acquainted with them, or that they are ignorant of them ? — In general the people are igno- rant of them. Have you found any people in the course of your conversa- tions, who have seen and read these prophecies ?— Yes, About what number? — I do not recollect more than two or three. Of the lower orders ? — No, the better class. Those persons disbelieve them ? — Yes. Is it your impression that those prophecies have not been in any degree circulated amongst the common people, in either the county of Kilkenny or the Queen's County ? — It is my im- pression that they have not. What are the grounds of that opinion ? — Having made in- quiry in every way, I could not find that they had been distri- buted among them. How old are the prophecies of Pastorini ? — I hope I shall not be laughed at for saying I really do not know. When were those prophecies first made current in Ireland 1 —I do not know. Is it not within these two or three years ? — I believe not. The miracles, you say, are generally believed? — Yes. By respectable Catholics ? — 'Yes. And the prophecies of Pastorini are not believed by respec- table Catholics ? — No. What is the reason of that difference in respect of the mi- racles and the prophecies ? — People have the evidence of their eyes and their senses of the miracles ; but they do not see how the prophecies of Pastorini are at all connected with them. MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 11 Mow can people have the evidence of their eyes and their senses with respect to any prophecy of a future event ? — If they see them carried into effect, they have both. If the prophecy relates to a time that is not yet arrived, how can the evidence of our senses be at all applicable to such prophecies ?— I have already stated my conviction, that the prophecies are not paid attention to, or believed. You have already stated that the miracles are believed ?— But not in consequence of those prophecies. What is it that makes that difference, that the miracles should receive so much credit, and the prophecies receive so little ?— It is not an unusual thing at all, for that all-seeing Being, when it is His pleasure, to perform miracles ; i'hey are not a novelty ; it has occurred from the earliest periods downwards. Are not prophecies also from time to time given by that same Being ; is there any thing more extraordinary in a true pro- phecy than there is in a real miracle ? — No, I think not in a true prophecy. Can you give any other reason why the miracles should be treated with so much respect, and the prophecies with so little ? •—They are not held as prophecies. That is the fact; what is the reason of it? — I am sure I do hot know how I should answer that question ; but that I know they are not held as prophecies, and the church does not sanc- tion them. Has the church given her sanction to the miracles ? — Yes, I believe so. The church has not sanctioned the prophecies ? — I never heard of it. Do you believe the reason why the miracles have been so generally received is, that the church have sanctioned them, and that the prophecies have, on the contrary been rejected, because they have not the sanction of the church ? — I do believe that the reason why the miracles are so generally believed in is, that they are so extremely well authenticated by those who believe in them, and by respectable members of the church. Do you believe that if Dr. Doyle had published a pastoral letter in which, instead of treating the prophecies of Pastorini as contemptible, he had sanctioned them, and given them credit, that they would have been generally believed in Ireland? — I believe that they would not, nor the act of any one indivi- dual, without the concurrence of the whole church. Have you known any other miracles received in your part of the country previous to those that have made so much noise? — Not within my time, but the one in the Queen's County. 12 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Do you mean the recent one? — I mean the case of Miss Lawler. Did you ever know of any miracle previous to that ? — No. Or in any other part of Ireland ? — No. Did you know Miss Lawler's family ! — Very well. Have you conversed with members of that family upon the subject of that event? — I have. Are there not parts of the penal laws that are considered very inconvenient to Catholics, even in respect of their pro- perty? — Certainly; they are considered very inconvenient in every respect. Must not a Catholic, before he is able to purchase land, or even bequeath it by will, or in short do any thing that gives him a right over property, take oaths that are called qualifi- cation oaths ? — I am not aware of that circumstance. Is the Committee to understand you to say, that, generally speaking, the Roman Catholics believed in this miracle of Miss Lawler? — I do believe they did believe in it. Do you yourself believe in it ? — I do ; I do believe that the young woman was restored to the perfect use of speech, after being deprived of it for years ; I know the fact to be so, and that solely and purely through that great, powerful, and Om- nipotent Being that performed the miracle ; and that the prayers of the young woman, the prayers of those that were acceptable, may have had some effect in producing it, ^but the act was from God alone. What instrumentality do you consider Prince Hohenlohe had in that ? — I do not know of any except the prayers of people imploring the Father of Mercies to restore the young woman. Do you believe that effect could have been accomplished without the intervention of Prince Hohenlohe .'' — Certainly I do. That it was not accomplished by any human means ? — No. With respect to prophecies, although you have not been able to trace the dispersion of those prophecies in the Queen's County, have you any reason to believe that they have been actually dispersed and circulated in other parts of Ireland ?— I have not. In Doctor Tuohy's address, he makes use of these expres- sions, '"I have reason to know, that even under the pretext of religion, the poor credulous people are led astray by these wicked advisers, telling them prophecies of wonderful events to happen in the years 1822, 1823, and 1824;" does not that refer to Pastorini's prophecies ? — 1 really do not know ; I never read them ; I am not aware what prophecies he alludes MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 13 to, it may be Pastorini's, but 1 have heard of other prophe- cies being amongst the lower class of people at different times, that of Columb Kill, and others, seem to have been all now- forgotten for Pastorini. Before you made those inquiries to which you have referred, among the lower class of people, as to the effect of Pastorini's prophecies, and the effect of credit to them, did you not take the trouble of reading the prophecies before you asked those questions? — I did not. Ig there any levy of money, under the denomination of Ca- tholic rent, going forward in your neighbourhood ? — I have not heard that it was in my immediate neighbourhood. Have you had any opportunity of observing any instances of its levy ? — No. Do you know of any persons in your neighbourhood being employed in collecting it at present ? — [ have not heard of any person in my neighbourhood being employed in collecting it. How long is it since you left that neighbourhood ? — About ten days. Do you expect it to be levied in your neighbourhood ? — I think it is likely it will. Can you tell the Committee the nature of that levy ? — I have only my information from what I read in the public papers. You are not a member of the Catholic Association ? — I am not. You were a member of the Catholic Board ? — I was. When did that cease to exist? — Some two or three years back. When did you cease to attend it? — I never was a member of the association. Were you in the habit of attending the Catholic Board ? — Yes ; whenever my business carried me to town, I went to the board. Will you explain to the Committee what were the objects of the Catholic Board ? — I know of no object whatever, but to endeavour to procure an equal participation in the benefits of the British constitution. In what manner did you become connected with the Catho- lic Board ? — •! went there as residing in the Queen's County, and the people in the Queen's County voting that I had pos- sessed their confidence. Will you describe the nature of that meeting? — ^The meet- ing was convened altogether in the county, for the purpose of addressing petitions to both Houses of Parliament. Was it by the high sheriff? — No ; a number of respectable 14 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Catholic gentlemen affixed their signatures to a requisition, calling upon the Catholics of the county to meet for the sole purposes of preparing petitions to both Houses of Parlia- ment, praying for a repeal of the penal laws, and in pur- suance of that the meeting was held. Do you conceive the present Catholic Association differs In any and what respect from the Catholic Board ? — I am not a member of it. Can you form any opinion as to whether the circulation of their proceedings in that part of the country, has a beneficial effect or otherwise upon the public tranquillity of the dis- trict ? — I do not think it has any effect w-hatever in disturbing the tranquillity ; many are of opinion that the proceedings are not sufficiently temperate, although they attribute nothing but honourable and pure motives to the principal actors in it ; still they would be considerably more pleased if there was more temper, and that is my own decided opinion. Do you think the circulation of their proceedings contributes to irritation or otherwise? — I do not think it has any effect. Have you any reason other than from the public prints, to enable you to form^a belief whether the Catholic rent is in progress of collection? — None whatever ; I have heard one gentleman say that he had paid, and another that he would pay a subscription. Did you hear those gentlemen mention to whom they had paid it? — It was some very trifling sum ; I do not recollect to whom it was paid ; one of them said, he had sent the sub- scription of one pound or guinea. To whom ? — To the Catholic Association. Did he send it up to Dublin or to any person in the coun- try ? — To Dublin, he said he had sent it. Have you any reason to know whether there is any person in the country that is authorized to receive subscriptions there? — I do not. Was any Catholic rent paid to the Catholic Board, to which you stated you belonged ? — No ; there was a subscription for defraying the expense of sending petitions to Parliament. Is your opinion, respecting the proceedings of the associa- tion in reference to the temper of them, the opinion of the generality of Catholics in your county? — A great many concur with me in opinion. Is not that an opinion which prevails very much among the Catholics in the country parts of Ireland ? — I think it does. Have you been applied to, to belong to the association ? — No. You have stated the manner in which you became a mem- MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 15 ber of the Catholic Board ; do you know how the Catholic Association has been formed ? — No, unless by public report. There has been no nomination of a similar nature to that which was made to the Catholic Board, when you were de- clared to possess the confidence of the Catholics of your coun- ty ? — None, that I know of. Did the persons who said they had paid the rent say, that they knew for what purposes it was to be applied ? — ^They told me that they did know for what purpose it was to be ap- plied ; that it was to defray the expenses "of presenting peti- tions, to see that an equal administration of justice, and a fair representation of the condition of their body, should be had ; those are the principal things they told me it was for. Then there were three distinct objects ; one had reference to presenting petitions, another was to have a pure adminis- tration of justice, and the third was to see that the public press should be properly conducted ? — Yes. And it was not all confined merely to presenting petitions ? — ^The persons who subscribed asked me to subscribe, and I said I should not. Have there been meetings lately in different counties, for the purpose of petitioning Parliament upon the Catholic question? — I have heard there was. Have you not attended any ? — No ; there has not been any meeting in the Queen's County. Do you know whether they entered into resolutions at those meetings? — -Except from the public papers, I know nothing. Did you see in the public papers, any resolution which ap- peared to be an agreement on the part of the meeting with the association? — I did. Have you been in the habit of attending the assizes at Kil- kenny, or the assizes in the Queen's County, as a juror ? — I have been always in the habit of attending the assizes at the Queen's County, not at Kilkenny ; my residence is in the Queen's County. Have you frequently acted on juries ? — Very frequently. Both civil and criminal ? — Till the last assizes, I never was in the criminal court. Did you find on the jury with you gentlemen of the Roman Catholic persuasion of your own rank ? — Very rarely. Did you act with Protestant gentlemen on the jury ? — Con- stantly. It it your impression that the conduct of those jurors has been at all influenced by religious feelings? — It is my opinion, that the Protestant jurors are as honourable and conscientious men as can be found any where. 16 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. And you have all cooperated together in the administration of justice? — Yes. You never found religious feeling actuate a jury? — Never. In your own town, do Protestants and Catholics mix; on what terms do you live in that town ? — I think I may best describe it, by stating that at my own table you may gene- rally find the clergy of every communion as often as I can have them. That is at the town of Ballynakill ? — Yes. You have no kind of differences or disputes? — None. Is there an orange lodge at Ballynakill ? — No ; if there was, we should soon have disturbances enough. Are there many Catholics in your rank of life, in that county ? — There are many about my standing. Are many of those gentlemen magistrates ? — There is not a Catholic magistrate in the Queen's County, save one. Are there many gentlemen in the county, of the middle class of persons, Catholics, fit to act as petit jurors? — A great number. You say, that very few have acted with you on the juries? ■ — Very few. Did that produce any observation among the people ? — Yes ; a constant subject of conversation amongst them. How does it happen, that they are not called on the juries? I cannot tell that ; I see them in attendance. I believe they are summoned ; but I rarely see them serve. Are they summoned ? — They tell me they have been sum- moned. Then, as far as the sheriff is concerned, they are sum- moned in the same manner as their Protestant fellow-sub- jects.? — The practice is, in Ireland, that the bailiff is fur- nished with summonses to fill up very often, and if the per- son serving does not give them a certain fee, they will return them ; if they get a certain fee, they will not return them. Then, is the Committee to understand, that it is not de- sired by themselves that they should be summoned? — Some of them wish it. You have no reason to doubt, that the sheriff, in issuing the summonses, extends them equally to Roman Catholics? — • I would not be understood as making any imputation upon the sheriff. The summonses are in blank? — They are often furnished with blank summonses. Are those blank summonses signed by the sheriff? — They would purport to have his signature. Are the Catholics generally desirous of serving on juries ?— MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED, 17 They are ; they like to be mixed, and to be considered as fel- low citizens. Do you know whether there are any number of gentlemen of the Roman Catholic persuasion in the Queen's County, that from their rank and their intelligence, are fit to be ma- gistrates ; is there any gentleman of fortune and situation in the county, resident, who would be qualified to be a magis- trate ? — There are many gentlemen in the Queen's County of equal fortune and acquirements with several that are magis- trates. We have no large Catholic proprietors in the Queen's County ; but there are many gentlemen that are equally well entitled to be magistrates with many of those that are in the commission of the peace. Have you any Catholic grand jurors in the county?- — No. Do you mean to say, that there is not one Catholic magis- trate in the Queen''s County ? — I do not know, whether the residence of Mr. Michael Delaney is in Queen's County. I believe he is in the commission of the peace in the Queen's County. Is Mr. Fitzpatrick, of Urlingford, a magistrate? — He is out of the commission of the peace, but he is in the county of Kilkenny. Was he in the commission of the peace ? — Yes. Will you explain to the Committee, how it is that if the Catholic jurors are summoned equally with the Protestant jurors by the sheriff, they do not serve equally in civil eases ? — I cannot pretend to answer that ; I can only state the facts I know. Does it arise, in point of fact, from there being a smaller number of Catholics qualified to be jurors in civil cases than of Protestants, or does it arise from any other cause? — I can- not say that there are a smaller number qualified to be jurors in civil cases ; but my idea of qualification for serving upon a jury in a civil case is, that every freeholder of 20/. or 50/. is qualified, and I think there are a very great number of both classes of such persons in the county. Such persons are returned by the sheriff as qualified ? — I do not know ; they are registered. Do you apprehend that any undue means are taken to pre- vent their serving ? — I would not be considered as casting the slightest imputation upon the sheriff. By other persons ? — I do not know any other person that could do it. Do not persons frequently endeavour to avoid being jurors ? — Both Protestants and Catholics very often wish to avoid it. Is it not very difficult often to procure good jurors ? — I think c 18 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. not; I rather think we are proverbial for having good juries on the civil side. Is it not a matter of difficulty sometimes to procure a suffi- cient attendance of jurors in civil cases ? — I will not say that it is a matter of difficulty to procure attendance, but I have often seen gentlemen in attendance endeavouring to avoid serving. And you have seen that on the part of Catholics as well as Protestants ? — Yes, I have. You stated, that you thought that all the Catholics, even the lowest order, take an interest in what is called the Catholic Question ? — I say that, generally speaking, I believe they do. Have you ever heard any of the very lowest orders express anything on that subject ? — Very often ; my own working men express a great wish that the question were carried, and that all were alike. You have heard that from your own labourers ? — Frequently. Are they acquainted with the particular laws which affect the Roman Catholic body? — I think you will find a great deal more information on that subject than you can expect ; they are fully sensible that they are not on an equality with other subjects in many particulars. They have a general knowledge that they are not placed on a footing with their fellow subjects? — Yes; I have generally found, that men of my standing are most anxious to press upon them not to enter upon the consideration of the question, but to leave it to us. But notwithstanding that they will think about it ? — They will be always inquiring and asking what prospect there is. Is there much want of employment in the neighbourhood of your county ? — Very great indeed. In that district of country which you have before alluded to, called the colliery country, is there a want of employment amongst the great population there ? — The want of employ- ment extends in a great measure there. What are the wages paid for labour ? — The wages paid in the quarter of the country I am in is about eight pence a day, when men are actually employed. Are many of them employed regularly every day through the year ? — It is impossible they should be employed every day through the year, for if there is bad weather they cannot be employed. Excepting bad weather? — I believe there is not above one man out of six that has constant work, I might say one in ten Are there any that are altogether out of employment ? — I will not say altogether, because they may occasionally get a MR. JOHN DTJNN EXAMINED. 19 day's employment, but there are many that have not one clay's work in a week. How do they manage to live ? — In the most wretched state. Have they land? — No. How do they find their food ? — Generally from the humanity of their fellow-creatures of their own class, and those a little above them in life. Can you form any idea, taking the whole of the labouring class in a district, what would be the average earning per day per man upon the whole year ; taking into account what they receive for labour, either by money or by land, how much a day would it make in your opinion? — I have been turning it a good deal in my mind, and 1 think they would not make more than from four pence to five pence per day, one day with ano- ther ; I mean those that are tolerably well employed ; the others nothing like it. What is their general conduct, are they tolerably orderly people ? — Whenever they get employment, you find them ex- ceedingly willing and anxious for labour, and at a very mode- rate compensation, and they are then exceedingly well con-^ ducted. Generally speaking, is their disposition orderly and quiet ? — Generally speaking it is so, and to the want of employment I attribute, in a great measure, much of our unhappy state. Is there a great anxiety on the part of the people to be em- ployed ? — The greatest possible ; the anxiety of the creatures to be employed, for any kind of remuneration, is wonderfully great. Are they industrious ? — Very industrious indeed, if they can but get employment. Have you known of the execution of any works, either public or private, by task-work ? — It has been a practice I myself have introduced, upon a pretty extensive scale, and I have found them eager for it, and to labour incessantly before and after hours. Have you known any instances in which it has become ne- cessary to restrain their exertions in task-work, lest it should prejudice their health ? — I have known it myself; I have often had occasion to point out to my labourers, that I had appre- hension they were labouring too severely, to the prejudice of their health. Is the general system, as far as you are acquainted, payment in money for labour, or payment in account for rent ? — The general system is, for the farmer to let ofiTa small portion of land, and he puts a rent upon it, and he takes this rent in labour, giving the balance of any thing that is over the rent c 2 20 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. to his people. They prefer themselves, getting a little ground that they may have to cultivate. Is the execution of the public works under the authority of the grand jury, generally paid for by money payment, or by allowances in account ? — I am very apprehensive that persons employed under the overseers, very often are in the habit of paying for the labour, by giving articles of food, and matters of that kind, to the actual labourers ; but very often they are paid in money too. Do you conceive it would be a great improvement in the execution of public works, were all those public works paid for in actual money ? — I think it would. Does the present system, wherever it exists, of paying for county works by allowances in account, or by giving articles of food, ever lead to giving the preference in the execution of county work to the tenants of the individual who has ob- tained the works? — 1 am not prepared to say that, to my knowledge, any preference for county works is given to the tenants of any individual. ''. What is the rate of daily wages at which the county works are performed? — I believe they give ten-pence a day. And three shillings a horse ? — They procure it on as good terms as they possibly can have it. It is ten-pence a day for labour, and three shillings for a man and horse ? — I believe two shillings and sixpence for a man and horse. Is that the usual rate of labour in the Queen's County ?— It is ; but the public works are executed at a period of the year when the days are more lengthened, and they give a little extra on that account. Under the present system, is not the great press of public works thrown almost altogether upon a certain period of the year ; namely, that immediately preceding the assizes? — Yes. Do you not conceive that more profitable employment would be afforded to the people, in the execution of public works, were it possible to distribute more evenly the labour of the year ? — ^That system is carried into execution in the Queen's County to a great extent ; they are endeavouring to manage public works, so that it shall not fall at any particular period too heavy. The plan is to set apart a certain number of perches of road to some respectable gentleman, and he sees that the repairs are kept up at a certain rate. Where the contrary system prevails, and the execution of public works takes place almost entirely just before the assizes, does not that throw the execution of works in summer to the time of early harvest, and throw the execution of works in MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 21 winter to the time of planting potatoes, and preparing for the spring work ? — It does. How long has this new system, which you have described, been acted upon in the Queen's County? — I should suppose for the last three or four years. Is that sj'stem, which you have been describing, the opera- tion of that part of the grand jury law which is commonly called the Supervisor's Act ? — It is. Are there a great many destitute and infirm persons in that part of the county in which you live? — There are. Is there any provision for them ? — None whatever. Do you think it would be desirable to introduce a system which should provide for destitute and infirm persons ? — Un- questionably it would ; it is dreadful to leave the country with- out it. Have you not a house of industry in the country?— No. Do those people that you have alluded to, in general, live by themselves or with families ? — They live detached, up and down, by themselves sometimes, when they can have a hut; and subsisting upon the charity of their poor fellow creatures for their night's lodging and their meal. So long as that exists, do you think it is possible to have habitations in the country which shall be altogether creditable ? — Certainly, it is impossible. Are you at all acquainted with the management of the poor laws in this part of the United Kingdom ? — Very little indeed. Is there not a very great distinction in the part of the coun- try with which you are acquainted, in the state of the poor upon those estates which are well managed, as compared with the state of the poor upon the estates which are the property of absentees, or which are not well managed?— The most striking ; for instance, there is Lord De Vesci ; he is a most excellent landlord ; there are no poor upon his estate, gene- rally speaking. What do you mean by that ? — He is everlastingly doing good acts to ameliorate their condition. Does Lord de Vesci possess the entire property in that pa- rish ?— No. Is the condition of the people in those parts of the parish which are not the property of the nobleman you have named, diflTerent from that on his estate ? — Very different indeed. If there was a parochial and compulsive provision for the poor in that parish, would not the effect of that be, to tax the property upon which the lower classes are in the best state, for the support of those parts in which the poor are in the worst state ? — Certainly, it would operate in that kind of way. In the event of any provision being made by law for the 22 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. poor in Ireland, do you not conceive, that on principles of jus- tice it would be essentially necessary that each townland only should contribute to the maintenance of its own poor ? — I do think so. Do you think it is possible, that the landlords, generally throughout Ireland, could act as liberally as Lord de Vesci does; do you think the landed gentry of Ireland, generally, are so circumstanced, in a pecuniary point of view, as that they could make the same expenditure for the poor that Lord de Vesci does ? — To a certain extent they could ; but it is on the absentees' estates that the w^retchedness exists principally. Do you think the gentry are in that state, with reference to their property, that they can afford to be as liberal as Lord de Vesci ? — I do believe, that generally speaking they are, to a certain extent. Are the other proprietors in that parish, in your opinion, people that are possessed of the same means of doing benefit to their tenantry as Lord de Vesci ?— I know they are not pos- sessed of property to th6 same extent, and they do not in general act at all like him. Are they capable of doing so ? — I think they might, in pro- portion to their means, but they do not. In the event of the introduction of any system for the relief of the poor in Ireland, by whom would you propose that the system should be administered? — I believe the overseers would be very fit and proper persons. Are you acquainted with any parishes in Ireland, in which there are no individuals to whom you could intrust the power of overseers ? — I am not acquainted with any parish just at this moment, but I should suppose in every parish some fit and proper person could be found. To what districts do you confine that observation? — To dis- tricts of the Queen's County, that I know, and the county of Kilkenny. Do you believe those districts to be above the average in point of resident gentry, or to be taken as a fair average of the general state of Ireland .' — I think them above the average. Have you any doubt but that in many parts of the country there would be parishes found, in which there would be no in- dividuals qualified to act? — There may be parishes found so circumstanced. Have you any doubt of it?~None ; I think they should be individuals of very respectable rank. What is the extent of your parish of Ballynakill ? — In the parochial book it is returned to me as containing from four to five thousand acres ; I think it is about six thousand acres. MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 23 Do you know the population of it? — It is very dense. Are you aware that in England every man, who cannot get employment, has a right to receive a sum of money, sufficient to enable him to purchase his food, from the parish ? — Yes; I am aware that, generally speaking, each parish is obliged to sustain them. Provided he cannot get labour ? — Yes ; I am only aware that each parish in England, is bound to maintain its own poor. Does not that mean to provide those people with the means of living, who cannot earn it by their labour ? — Unquestionably. Supposing every person in your parish, that could not earn his livelihood by labour, had an opportunity of going to the overseer, and receiving from him what should be sutficient to purchase him the food he requires, have you any idea of the charge that would make upon the parish? — No ; the numbers are very great of old, infirm and decrepit. Suppose that every able-bodied labourer had a right to go, as well as the old, infirm and decrepit, and receive money to buy himself food; under those circumstances, would there not be a very great charge upon the parish.-' — Avery great indeed. Would not a great part, or almost the whole of the labour- ing population, apply for relief? — I think not ; if they could get labour, the Irish are willing to work, and I know many instances where they are unwilling to expose their distress. Have you any idea that it is probable that the labouring people will have the means of getting labour? — I am not aware of any thing at this moment, for the depressed state of agriculture is so great, there is no inducement on the part of the farmer, to embark in any speculations that would give them employment. Would not a certainty existing that provision and relief could be got from the public fund be a new inducement to early marriages in Ireland ? — I do not think it could ; for I think the great evil is the early marriages at present ; I think that any thing like poor laws should be on a very modified scale. If any circumstances were to occur to check the habit of early marriages, would not the existence of the poor laws con- tribute to counteract them? — If there was a modified plan of poor laws well regulated, I think they could be so done as that they could Hot be available for those purposes ; I do not think it would accelerate early marriages. Do you feel certain that you can adopt the principle of poor law, and by any means limit it in its operation? — Yes, I do think that possible. Do you think that in a season of very great disti*ess, suppo- sing the law was limited merely to the infirm and decrepit, 24 MR, JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. that you could prevent it from being extended to other classes of the people ? — Certainly, I think I could. You are aware that there are a great number of Irish la- bourers come over to this country in the summer? — Yes. Do you think that those people would come to England for employment if they could be supported out of the parish rate at home? — I think they would, for the reason I have already assigned ; I find that they are unwilling to be supported by charity. You think they would go on coming to England ? — I would not leave it in their power to be supported from the parish. Have any gone from the Queen's County to look for perma- nent employment in England ? — A good many. Have any of them been obliged to come back, because they \vere not allowed to remain in England ? — A great many came back, because they were not allowed to remain. Were they people that were refused relief in England, or that were prevented from settling by residence, as interfering- with the people of England ? — I understand from a great number ^of them that the labourers of that class of life in Eng- land, have great jealousy of their coming in amongst them, and taking their employment from them. What do you think is the average extent of parishes in your neighbourhood? — I think about 5000 acres; Stradbally ex- cepted, which I found contains about 1400. Do you not think that the establishment of poor laws, how- ever modified, would greatly aggravate the evil of which you, in the former part of your evidence, complained ; namely, the pressure upon the population by parochial charges ? — If the charge of the poor laws were to fall exclusively upon the occupier of the soil it would bring his ruin immediately. Must it not necessarily fall upon the occupier, inasmuch as the landlord, for instance, if he has his ground to let, would immediately upon the lease being expired, or his getting pos- session of the ground, raise that charge upon the occupying tenant, which he would be chargeable with in order to main- tain these poor laws 1 — If it is the wisdom of the legislature to direct the occupier to pay any charge for any definite object, that may be received in discharge of his present engagements. Do you think that Parliament can control the landlord, in demanding a certain price for the land that he lets ? — Cer- tainly not ; but as it is I do not suppose it will interfere with the property of gentlemen ; but I speak now of the state that the country is in under demises for years and for lives ; and it might interfere so as to regulate the proportions to be paid by the parties, MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 25 You stated the average size of parishes may be taken at about 5000 acres ; what is the average size of the town lands ? — Town lands vary very much ; I have found some town lands not to contain 100 acres, and others six or seven hundred acres. Are not the parishes then, almost, too large districts to be overlooked by overseers appointed by the parish ; would they not be too large for overseers? — I think not. Supposing those overseers to be over town lands, are there not many town lands in which there are many inhabitants in which there is no person fit for the situation ? — I think there are town lands, in which there would be no persons applying for relief. What is the state of leases generally in your part of Ire- land? — Lands are, generally speaking, demised for leases of three lives or thii-ty-one years. Do the persons to whom those leases are granted, generally occupy the whole of the land so demised? — Many do, and many do not. In the cases of those who do not, how do they demise thera again ? — They often set them for one life, or two or three lives, or a certain number of years. What does the man who has this lease for one life or num- ber of years, how does he deal with the land, does he sub-let it again? — Sometimes he does ; too often. Does the person who demises from him ever again sub-let?^ I am sure there are cases of such sub-lettings. What is the greatest number of tenants that you know under the head landlord? — Probably they go down to five. Each of the tenants endeavouring to obtain a profit rent out of the other, to whom he demises? — Exactly. What portion of the land in your neighbourhood, do you think is occupied by the head landlord? — None at all. What proportion do you think is occupied by the first lessee without sub-letting? — Very many occupy the entire, and several sub-let in the immediate neighbourhood : I myself occupy all the lands I have got, with the exception of work- men's gardens. Do you think that the inimediate lessees occupy half the land in the district with which you are best acquainted ? — I think they do at present ; but I think they did not some three or four years back. What has caused that difi'erence? — The distress of agri- culture has brought down the immediate tenant, and he has pulled down the person who demised to him ; and a great number of the middle men are all knocked down. 26 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. So that the person who was formerly an under tenant, now holds immediately from the head landlord ? — A great many of them do. Are those persons possessed of much capital ? — Several of them have a good deal of capital, and many have not. Adequate to the management of the tracts they have ? — I think there are many that have not sufficient for the tracts of land they have. What is the size of those holdings generally ? — The farms vary very much, it extends as low as to a solitary acre ; from fifty acres down to one. What is the average size of farms let to the immediate lessee of the original landlord ? — It generally goes from about 50 acres to 250 ; I mean the cultivated low lands. What description of houses are occupied by the immediate lessee of the original proprietor ? — Very often but very in- different thatched houses. Are many of them slated? — Some of the great proprietors that live at home build most capital houses for their farmers, particularly Mr. Cosby ; I have heard Lord Lansdowne also does so. Those are slated houses? — Yes; and for his mountain farmers, comfortable thatched cottages. Are the houses of the immediate tenants of the original landlords always repaired by the lessee, or ever by the land- lord? — Always by the tenants. And in the case of a sub-tenant; are they always repaired by the sub-tenant? — Always repaired by the tenant in oc- cupancy. Generally speaking, are the resident landlords of the county, and particularly in your immediate neighbourhood, all attend- ing very much to the comfort of their tenants ? — I think they are all attending to the interest of their tenants; but the two I have mentioned pre-eminently so. Sabbati, 5° die Junii, 1S24. LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR. Mr. Joh7i Dunn, again called in ; and Examined. You stated yesterday, that the holdings vary from about 50 to 250 acres generally? — Yes, I did^ By those holdings, you mean the holdings immediately from the landlord? — I do. MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 27 Supposing a holding of 200 acres is sub-let by the imme- diate lessee, into how many different parcels does he frequently divide it?— It varies very much, sometimes it may be let into five different parts, sometimes double the number, some- times half. Supposing a holding of 200 acres is divided into five parcels, each of 40 acres, will the tenant of those 40 acres be able to cultivate them by his own family, or must he employ other labourers ; the question referring to farms generally arable ? — It often occurs, that they are cultivated by the family of the master, and very frequently he employs hands to assist. How many acres do you conceive a family, with the average number of hands in it, is capable of cultivating ? — A family, comprising the master and four sons capable of labour, and two daughters, which is a moderate family in Ireland, six in number, besides the father and mother, I should suppose fully equal to a farm of from 30 to 40 acres, occasionally having help in the harvest or hurried times. In point of fact, how many houses and cabins do you think there are generally erected upon a holding of 40 or 50 acres in your neighbourhood ? — In some instances there is not more than one, and in very many instances there may be five to six or eight huts for the habitation of the wretched occu- piers. How do the inhabitants of those supernumerary cabins era- ploy themselves ? — Generally, for any spare time they may have from the cultivation of their own farm they endeavour to procure labour in the immediate neighbourhood. Is that labour to be had constantly ? — No, very rarely. How much land do the occupiers of those small cabins occupy? — Sometimes, but one acre, sometimes two; and I think, scarcely more than five or six acres. Is the whole of that generally cultivated as potatoe-ground ? — When they have but one acre it is generally the greater part under potatoes, and the part they are able to manure the current year will have a crop upon it the succeeding year, having corn that year. How much land do you conceive to be necessary to be attached to a cabin for a family occupying it for a potato- garden ? — I should suppose, about three acres would be as much as they could well manage if they had not a cow. Generally speaking, the occupants of those holdings have not a cow ? — They have not. How do they provide themselves with milk ? — There are large dairies, generally speaking, pretty much through the country, and they dispose of their butter-milk, they sell it. 28 ME. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Is it necessary for a man to have three acres to provide his family vv^ith sufficient food ? — No, I think not. What is the smallest quantity of land a man ought to have, to provide a common family with their means of subsistence ? I do not think he could do it at all w^ith less than two acres, if he has a family of six children, and the father and mother, because they generally have a pig to feed. What would he pay commonly an acre for that ? — The rent varies very much, according to the nature of the soil, gene- rally the poor creatures are charged very high rents. What in your neighbourhood is the average rent .''—I should suppose something about two pounds or guineas an acre. How does he pay his rent ? — Generally by his labour, and the sale of a pig he endeavours to feed. The pig he looks to most particularly, as his main prop and support. How does he feed the pig ? — On the oiFal of the potatoes ; the smaller ones that are not tit for his own table are laid aside for the feeding of the pig ; and the peels and refuse of that prepared for his family. This pig is allowed to run about ? — He occupies a part of the dwelling with the poor creatures, and runs about. I have stated that the usual practice is, that the portion of their ground which they are able to manure this year for their potatoe crop, the current year they grow corn upon ; then they bring it round to potatoes again. The pig is not shut up to be fattened as in England ? — No. Does not a pig get a considerable quantity of his food by walking about .^ — Yes. What quantity of land does this poor man till for corn ? — The proportion of his garden, I have already stated, which he is able to manure this year, he puts a corn crop in. Then one acre of land would produce him sufficient potatoes for his family, would it not.? — I think that the potato-crop would not, unless it was a very good year, afford him suffi- cient for his family ; and that those who have a corn-crop, must have resource to that. How many barrels of potatoes would an acre produce ?— I think about eighty barrels to an acre is about a fair crop; they are not able to get manure to produce what other men might get from it. Those barrels are twenty stone to the barrel. Are there not great numbers of people who live without having this quantity of land ? — A great number indeed. There are m.any that have no land at all ? — A great number. MR. JOHN' DTN'N EXAMINED. 29 How do those people live ? — They endeavour to procure from farmers a portion of ground manured each year, for the cultivation of the potato-crop, for which they pay very high rents. Is that called Conacre? — It is. What do they pay for it ? — When the land is very well cul- tivated, and highly-manured, I have known it in my neigh- bourhood to go so high as ten guineas an acre ; in proportion to the excellence of the manure, the rent is charged. How do the people pay for that land ? — They pay by their labour, if they can get employment ; if not, they must make out the money ; and we often have great wretchedness with their little crops, selling by auction for the amount of such rents so contracted. Are there many people who live continually on charity?— There are a good many. At what age do they buy their pig ? — It varies very much ; some will buy of a very tender age, and keep it to what is called store ; then it is sold ia the public market to a man who keeps it on some months longer, till it is in condition for the bacon-house. Are they able to sell several pigs in a year ? — Many of them do buy and sell several ; keeping them for a short time. Is there much land underlet in your neighbourhood ? — Yes, a large quantity. Is it not the habit of the wives and families of persons who underlet lands in this way, to act with great kindness to the common people ? — Yes ; 1 know numbers of them who have had certain leases to themselves, take great care of the poor creatures to whom they have let their land. Would you say that of the Protestant gentlemen as well as of Catholics? — Unquestionably, I know no difference; we know of no distinction. I find them as charitable and humane as Catholics ; I know no difference. Practically they are very useful to the lower orders of the people, living on the lands and in their neighbourhood ? — Practically I know not what would become of much of the property of absentees, but for the middlemen ; they are kind, generally speaking, and good-natured and humane to their under-tenants ; if they were not, the country would be much worse off than it is ; there are many cases of exception, some very sanguinary men, and very oppressive. Do you apply that locally to the part of the country from which you come, or generally ? — I have applied all my answers locally. Is there much absentee property in your neighbourhood.''—' 30 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. There is a ^ood deal ; but latterly it has been the practice of one great proprietor to visit Ireland almost every year, and his tenantry are contented and happy, and reap great advantage from his lordship''s visits ; I refer to my Lord Lansdowne. In the case of the absentee estates in your own neighbourhood, are there generally resident agents upon them ? — I reside on an absentee's estate ; Lord Stanhope is the proprietor of the estate on vv^hich I reside ; the agent is not resident, but there cannot be a kinder agent, or better landlord. Are the agents generally paid by salaries or per centages ? — The tenant is bound by lease to pay sixpence in the pound re- • ceiver'sfees ; and I have heard that the noble proprietor pays a like sum : I do not know whether that is the case, but as tenant to Lord Stanhope, I pay sixpence in the pound receiver's fees, as well as the rent. Is that a usual mode of paying a receiver ? — I beg to say, that whenever an absentee does visit his estates in Ireland, the condition of the poor tenantry is wonderfully bettered by it ; it is a most desirable thing. You mentioned yesterday that there were Orange parties at Mountrath ? — I did. Has not the landlord of the town of Mountrath, and the neighbouring country, made an exertion to check the proces- sions ? — I am most happy to have an opportunity of stating, that he has not only made exertions but he has completely succeeded, and has restored to that part of the country, that was a disgrace to the county, perfect good-will and harmony, and has altogether removed that dreadful hydra that cursed us annually; thelandlordis SirCharlesCoote,andthe whole coun- try is affectionately devoted to him for having done so. In what way did he succeed in stopping the practice ? — I believe him to be the principal proprietor of the town of Mountrath, and being on the spot, his influence had the natu- ral effect of putting an end to those shocking scenes we annually had there. Has not he given public notice that he would refuse to renew leases, or grant lands to any person who took a part in those processions ? — I heard that he made use of every exer- tion within his reach to put them down and get rid of them, and he has succeeded. Was there any resistance made to his wishes .'' — Never, that I am aware of. The expression of his desire that it should cease was enough ? — I understood that there was some little show of resistance, but it gave way at once ; Sir Charles, 1 believe, was determined, and they found it more prudent to give way. MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 31 Have the lodges been broken up, or only the annual display of meetings discontinued? — I cannot speak positively to that ; I have heard that the lodges are continued, but there is no annual display. Are there Orange lodges at Mountrath ? — I believe there are ; I have heard so. Is there much outrage at Mountmelick on account of pro- cessions ? — Yes ; I have heard, and believe so. At what time of the year do they take place ?— On the twelfth of July annually. Are those disturbances productive of bloodshed? — In some places they have been, particularly at Mountrath, lives have been lost from time to time, and always the lives of Roman Catholics ; one party are armed, and the other party are not. There is no Catholic organization of any sort there ? — Not that I am aware of, and I have taken great pains to be in- formed upon it. Has not Doctor Doyle's effort to check the progress of in- surrection been perfectly successful, in the diocese over which he is the Catholic bishop? — I attribute much of our state of tranquillity, and altogether putting down that insurrectionary spirit, to his persevering exertions. When it began to show itself in one part of his diocese, how did he act 1 — He met it at once. Did he do more than publish the address of which the Com- mittee have heard ? — Yes ; he made a visitation of his diocese, and publicly from the pulpits exhorted the people, which I think has had the happiest effect. Has Doctor Doyle introduced any changes in respect of the charges of the priests, in his diocese or the stations ? — Very great. Of what nature are those changes? — It was the practice heretofore, for the Roman Catholic clergyman, when he called to perform his duties at Easter and Christmas, to dine with the family whom he relieved from the trouble of going to the place of worship. Doctor Doyle has prohibited that, and under no circumstances will allow that his clergy shall stay to be maintained at the house where they attend for religious purposes, save for a breakfast or a snack ; they are not allowed to dine : it was the practice for the Roman Catholic clergy- man to attend to administer the sacrament, not to give the family the trouble to go to their places of worship, which are often at a great distance. That is the meaning of the word station ? — It is. They commonly assemble in respectable farmers' houses ?— Yes, 32 aiR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. Were those entertainments attended with expense to the parties at whose house they took place ? — Certainly, they were attended with expense. Is a snack or breakfast, matter of expense ? — Nothing at all like what the other will be. The entertainment was a considerable expense, was it not, to the parties ? — I would say considerable, when compared with a breakfast or snack, very considerable. Has he introduced any other changes with respect to his clergy ? — Yes, he has ; he has prohibited them altogether from appearing at places of public amusement or resort, or at hunt- ing parties ; and in all cases where any parish priest has died, and there was a plurality of livings, he has separated them, and sent additional clergy to such parishes so divided. Do you conceive the number of the Catholic clergy, in those parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted, to be ade- quate, in point of fact, to the increase of duties which the in- crease of population has cast upon them? — I think they are barely adequate ; I think a lesser number would not perform the duties. Has Dr. Doyle taken any pains to introduce schools, and lending libraries among the Catholics ? — In every parish of the diocese with which I am acquainted he has been most solicit- ous to have schools introduced, and libraries for the use of the people. Have the goodness to state to the Committee what those libraries are ? — They generally consist of religious tracts. The Life of Christ is one ; the Death of Abel another. Is Reeves's History of the Bible one of the books ? — I have not met with that ; but the works of Dr. England, and the works of Bishop Challoner I have just seen ; there were books of that description. For what purpose are those books placed in those libraries ? — For the reading and instruction of the children, and the education of the more advanced people, that have not, in their early period, been educated ; they are read in chapel prior to the service on Sundays. Are those books much read, and has the establishment of lending libraries given satisfaction? — They are very much read, and I think the establishment has given great satisfaction. How are those lending libraries supported; from what funds.'' — The priest generally endeavours to raise a small fund in the first instance, and then the person who chooses to borrow any particular work, pays a small trifling sum for the loan for a certain period, and on the restoration of the book, when he takes another, he pays a small sum again ; and when it comes to a pound, they add to the library again. ME. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 33 Has the bishop prohibited works of a controversial descrip- tion ? — I have not seen any books of a controversial description in their libraries. Do you know whether the bishop has prohibited them ? — I believe they are very anxious to put away books of a contro- versial nature. Do you know of any arrangement between Catholic and Pro- testant clergymen, for the establishment of schools ? — In the town in which I live there is a school, maintained by subscrip- tion from both classes ; and there are children of both descrip- tions attending ; we have no other aid. Is there any arrangement between the clergymen of the two religions, with respect to the books ? — I know there are some arrangements, that neither are in the slightest degree inter- fered with, with respect to their principles ; nor they do not allow any thing of that description in the school. You do not know whether there is any common agreement about the books to be read by the children ? — I do not know to my own knowledge ; but I take for granted there must be an arrangement between them. Are you acquainted with the arrangement made at Mary- borough ? — I have heard that there was the very best under- standing betv/een the rector and the Roman Catholic priest, and that they were likely to get on very well together. Are the schools you have alluded to, extensively established in Dr. Doyle's diocese ? — I believe in every parish. Are they exclusively maintained by Catholics ? — Certainly not ; the Protestants at Ballynakill subscribe with the Catho- lics ; and the Protestant children as well as the Roman Catho- lics attend the school. Did Dr. Doyle endeavour to prevent imprudent and early marriages in his diocese ? — I have heard him constantly speak against the imprudence of early marriages, and regret it, certainly. Do you know whether he has ever advised his clergy to dis- courage them ? — I do not. How long has the school at Ballynakill been established ? — Two or three years. Was it established before Dr. Doyle came into that diocese ? —No. Was it by him it was established ? — By his direction and order. The library was established at the same time ? — Certainly. How many volumes do you believe there are in the library ? — I declare I cannot give an answer ; they are lent out, and D 34 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. the people exhorted to read ; and as the fund is increased, they are adding every day to their library. Is the Bible read in that school ? — I believe not. Is the Bible one of the volumes that are in the library ? — I never saw it. Either the Old or the New Testament ? — I have seen the Old and New Testament in the possession of many of those that are at the school, but whether it forms part of their library, I am not prepared to say. Do you know whether that school receives any assistance from the Kildare-street Society? — I know it does not. Are there any books of history in the library ? — Yes ; I think I have heard that the History of the Church is one. Do you recollect the name of the author of that history ? — . Indeed I do not ; I did not examine it so particularly. Is there any History of England in the library ? — No ; I never heard that there was ; it may be there without my knowledge. Is there any History of Ireland in the library? — No. Are there any books except religious books in the library? — I believe not ; all books on morality ; I am given to under- stand that is the nature and description of the books that they have in their library. Do you mean to say there are no books, except on general morality, and none that inculcate the peculiar tenets of the Roman Catholic faith ? — I am not prepared to answer that question ; I do not know. Are there not some books in the library on the tenets of the Catholic religion ? — I am sure there are ; I have no doubt at all upon that. And some books of Catholic devotion ? — I can have no doubt that there are. Could you tax your memory to recollect the names of the different books ? — I cannot at all. Any of them.? — I really cannot at all. You mentioned the Life of Christ ? — Yes ; I recollect tak- ing that up and looking at it ; but I have not been particular in examining so as to see what the titles of the other works are. Are there any other schools in Ballynakill besides that? — Yes ; there are private schools. Have you gone to those schools from time to time ? — No ; I do not think I have. Then you can give no account of them ? — No ; except in the general way. Do you know what is paid for the education of the children MR. JOHN DUNS EXAMINED. 35 in those privale schools? — It is something very moderate, but I cannot say exactly. You cannot say how much a quarter ? — No ; I never took the trouble of inquiring. Are there Protestant children attending the school at Bally- nakill ? — There are. Does the Protestant clergyman ever visit that school ? — I have not seen him in it ; but I think it is likely that he does ; I had a considerable hand in its formation, and the fundamen- tal principle was, that nothing on the subject of religion should be introduced ; they should be merely taught to read and write, and account; and all religious instruction left to their clergymen. Out of what book are they taught? — I believe Enfield's spelling-book is the principal book they have got ; and then I be- lieve, Scott's Elocution ; I think I have seen Goldsmith's Greece and Rome in it, that I took them up and approved of them, and that I thought them very fit books and very instructive. In that school or any schools you have ever been acquainted with, have you ever known or heard of any of the following books being read, the History of Irish Rogues and Robbers, Moll Flanders, or Tom Paine's Works.? — No. What books do the lower description of schoolmasters teach, what are called the hedge schools ? — I have often gone for the purpose of looking, and have seen generally a little work, "Reading made Easy," and Enfield's Speaker, and a little Primer ; I have not seen any thing beyond. Have you ever met with a book which you considered as immoral or improper at those schools ? — Never. What is the conduct of those various schoolmasters ? — I be- lieve they are well-conducted men ; they are very sharply looked after, and if we found the least impropriety they would be dismissed. Who looks after them? — The clergymen, and the better class of both communions. Their practices then are very well known and watched ? — They are, as far as my knowledge goes. Do you consider them as of any great use in the country; do they succeed in teaching a great many people ? — I do con- sider them as of very great use; there are 150 or 160 boys and girls educated in that school I have referred to, in Bally- nakill ; I think the greater number of them are Roman Ca- tholics, for the population in that part of the country is Ro- man Catholic. Is not the Bible read by the Protestant children in that school ? — I believe not. D 2 36 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. By neither Protestant nor Catholic ? — By neither one nor the other. Is the Bible read much by Catholics? — Very much. Has every respectable Catholic family a Bible in the house? —Yes ; I believe so. And every part of the Bible ? — Yes ; they are recommended very much to read it; but to read it with great caution, and great humility of heart. Is there not a considerable sale of Bibles in Ireland, by the Dublin booksellers ? — I am not able to speak to that, from my own knowledge. There is no difficulty in purchasing a Bible? — I should think not. There is no restriction ? — None whatever. Any Catholic is permitted to go into a bookseller's shop, and buy a Bible .^ — Certainly. And he is not prevented by his priest from reading it .'' — No ; they are exceedingly anxious that they should read it, but that they should read it with great humility of heart, and in- voke the spirit of the Holy Ghost to assist them, and they never wish to prohibit any decent man from reading it. Do many Catholics read the Bible? — I think a great many Catholics, of the better educated class, read it, and read it attentively. In the event of a system of education being provided for Ireland, which prevented any interference with the peculiar religious opinions of Catholic and Protestant, do you not think it would be more desirable to have schools established for Ca- tholic and Protestant together, than to have separate establish- ments for the Catholics and Protestants? — I should rather a great deal see them together ; and if their morals, and their religious instruction, were left to their clergy, and the two united, and brought up together, I think it would be produc- tive of the greatest advantage. At what periods, at the school at Ballynakill, are the chil- dren taught their religious duties? — Generally on Saturdays ; but it is the practice of the Roman Catholics to have their chapels, on Sunday, set apart in the mornings and evenings for the religious instruction of the Roman Catholic children. Is one day, Sunday, sufficient for the purpose? — Sunday is the great day that they are all congregated together ; and they are carefully instructed, both in the morning and evening, in their religious duties. Supposing one day in the week, besides Sunday, was alto- gether given up for the purpose of the clergy teaching their religious duties to the children, would not it be a good manner MR. JOHN DUXX EXAMINED, 37 of supplying sufficient instruction, without any interruption of other duties? — I should think it would. Is it the Protestant version of the Bible which you say is read? — I believe, in Catholic families, it is the Douay version which is generally used ; I very often take up the Protestant version, and read it myself. 1 do not know whether my prac- tice may be common or not. In general it is the Douay version? — I believe it is. Can you say whether it includes both Testaments, the Old and the New ? — In some cases, I believe it does not ; in some cases I believe it does. Are the Douay editions generally with or without notes ? — The Douay version 1 generally see in Catholic families, is with notes. What is the impression made, in your neighbourhood, on the public mind, particularly amongst the Catholics, on hear- ing you were summoned to attend the Committee of this House ? — They seemed very much gratified that any one of their body would be called before Parliament, that a repre- sentation should be made from themselves ; they seemed to hail it as a prospect that their case would be carefully in- quired into. It gave satisfaction through the country, to find that one of their religion had been sent for to explain the condition of them to Parliament.'' — I think it did. To what class of persons do you allude in particular, and of what number had you an opportunity of collecting tiie opinion ? — I certainly made no counting of them ; when I received the order of the House, I lost very little time in proceeding ; but all classes, high and low, expressed great satisfaction ; and if I were disposed to be flattered, I should have been flattered by the expression of their sentiments. Was the appointment of this Committee generally known? — Very generally known, and hailed as a very favourable omen for our country. You speak of Dublin, as well as of the country? — My stop in Dublin was but for a few hours. You did not collect any sentiments in Dublin? — I did not stop to collect any sentiments there, but those I saw expressed great pleasure at the appointment of the Committee, and at the circumstance of my being summoned over to give evidence. Have you, as secretary of the Catholics of the Queen's Coun- ty, and as a member of the Catholic Board, had a consider- able opportunity of collecting the opinions of the Catholics on religious and other subjects? — I have. What should you say was the opinion of the Catholic body 38 MR. JOHN DDNN EXAMINED. in respect of the Protestant church establishment in Ireland ? — I firmly believe the Catholic body have no desire whatever to intermeddle with it ; when I say intermeddle, I mean to disturb it, or to appropriate any part of it, to divert it from the establishment ; but, in common Vv'ith the Protestants, they would wish to be relieved from a portion of the burden of it. Have you, in the conversations at meetings of Catholics, or communications with Catholics, ever heard any speculation advanced of a change in that establishment being desirable to the Catholics of Ireland? — Never; nor do I believe the Ca- tholics either wish or desire it. Do the Catholics feel that that church has been established permanently by the settlement of the Union? — I think they do. On your own part, and the part of those with whom you are acquainted, do you think there is any desire to interrupt this settlement? — For my own part, I have no wish to inter- rupt that settlement ; and I believe that is the feeling of all those with whom I am connected or acquainted. Is your belief of the opinion you have just expressed formed from conversations and communications on the subject gene- rally with the Catholics? — Formed from repeated conversa- tions with the respectable Catholic proportion of the people had repeatedly on the subject, and hearing their opinions ac- cord completely with my own. Are the Committee to understand, that you have collected this from repeatedly conversing with them on the reasonable- ness or permanency of the church establishment of Ireland ? — From repeated conversations, the consequence of the discus- sion of our question in both Houses of Parliament, and the establishment being so much introduced, as a desirable thing on the part of our body to destroy, break down, or invade. Supposing the Catholic question to be carried, is it a matter of speculation or at all desired, that the Catholic bishops should be allowed to sit in Parliament? — I for myself can say, and all those with whom I am intimately connected, most sin- cerely desire that they shall not ; we hold it to be a place not exactly suited for such characters, and I never hope to see any of them in it ; they may easily be better employed. Have you understood, that there has been a question with regard to a veto on the Crown in the appointment of Catholic bishops ; do you think that an objection to that measure ge- nerally pervades the Roman Catholics throughout Ireland ? — That is a very delicate question ; there is a great variety of opinions upon it; under the existing circumstances of the condition of the Catholics I can only give my own opinion, if it is thought worthy of being had ; I should be exceedingly MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 39 sorry to concede to the Crown, under the present existing cir- cumstances, any interference, directly or indirectly, with the appointment of our bishops. Do you believe that to be the general opinion of the Catho- lics? — I believe it to be so ; but if the question of emancipa- tion were carried, and matters became settled and well under- stood, I have then very little doubt, that a very little time would remove much of the objection, but not the whole, that exists at present to the interference of the Crown in the ap- pointment of our bishops. Could you state why that objection should exist for the pre- sent, supposing the question to be carried, and not to continue after a certain period ? — My own impression is, that circum- stanced as the Catholic body is at present, an excluded and proscribed sect in their own country, the Catholics would take up the opinion, that if the Crown had a right of nomination and interference in the appointment of their bishops, their object would be to select unworthy personages for filling the high situations which have been alluded to ; but if we become one and the same people, and those obstructions removed, I think the good feeling that would be inculcated would at once show, that the danger now that appears so very strong, would not then exist in reality. You see no objection then, in point of ecclesiastical disci- pline, to the interference of the Crown ; your objection to th6 interference would rest on your apprehension of the manner in which the influence might be exercised ? — I am under the impression, that it is an ecclesiastical regulation, and that it might be so managed in the event of these matters occurring. That being the obstacle opposed to Catholic emancipa- tion, how would you propose to remove it in the first instance? — ^As a Roman Catholic, and communicating w ith the respect- able portion of them, wc have always deeply regretted that our emancipation has been so mixed up with ecclesiastical matters ; we have always considered it most unfortunate that the questions have not been separated ; our earnest wish would be for every possible guard and barrier, and fence and protection to the established church, and that all her rites and immunities should be preserved ; but to let the body have their political emancipation, we cannot discover how the ex- clusion of the laity from corporate rights, from filling the office of sherifl's, and from seats in Parliament, can have any con- nexion whatever with our religious habits and feelings. Then you do not think that the objection to such eccle- siastical arrangements w^ould proceed from the Roman Ca- tholic laity ? — Nor do I believe that it would from the clergy if 40 MR. .JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. the question was once settled, and matters allowed to come to a proper understanding, which I think they would do in a very little time indeed. What do you mean by the guards you refer to ? — I mean by that, that I would suppose that it was quite fair and reason- able that the Lord Chancellor of England, and other of the ministers, that those should be exclusively fitted for their sta- tions by taking the test oaths as they stand at present. You mean, that they should be Protestants? — I do, exclu- sively so. Does it appear to you, that the Catholics consider it a grievance to have to support the Protestant clergymen ? — They feel, in common with their Protestant fellow-citizens, the great burden of supporting the Protestant clergy of Ireland ; but I have it from several of the rectors, to whom I pay tithe, that the Roman Catholics pay them with greater facility and pleasure than those of their own communion. Does it occur to you, it would give satisfaction to the Roman Catholic people, if their clergy were rendered more indepen- dent by receiving a provision from the state ? — I think, as we are now circumstanced, it would not; I think the people's affections would be alienated from them if they were to accept any thing from the Crown. Do you think they would accept it? — I believe one out of fifty might ; but in general I think they would not. Have the goodness to state the grounds on which you think that would produce an alienation of the people from the priesthood ? — The expression of the opinion of a large body of Catholic people whom I have heard from time to time speak upon the subject. Have they stated any reasons why they would not repose the same confidence in a priesthood paid by the state ? — Yes ; I have heard them state as one, that they conceive they would not be so attentive to their religious duties as they are at the present moment ; that they would be more obedient and ob- sequious to persons in power, than attentive to their religious duties. Would those objections be removed by the question of eman- cipation being settled? — I have already stated, that I thii*k they would. How does it occur to you, that the priesthood would be less obsequious or more attentive to their duties if Catholic eman- cipation were granted ? — Because the people would then re- ceive, I conceive, equal advantages, by being admitted to a participation of the blessings of the British constitution. Do you not think such a measure would tend greatly to MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 41 alleviate the difficulties and the expenses to which the poor are now put in Ireland ? — I think the poor people would prefer the trifle, the miserable and trifling pittance they do give, to having the clergy paid by the Crown at the present moment. Can you state what is given ? — I believe I can ; at Easter time and at Christmas time, the adults of the poorer classes visually give from five to ten pence per head ; and in a great many instances, nothing whatever. The better classes go on from 2s. (jd. to 5s. half-yearly ; and in a very few instances, the clergyman may have a pound half-yearly from the better class of Catholics, who usually accompany it Avith a little oats for the maintenance of his horse, probably a barrel, or, I believe, in most cases not exceeding two. At chris- tenings they have very small dues from the poorer people, and very often perform them without any fee ; the better class may give them from half-a-crown to half-a-guinea or a pound. At interments they usually get a fee, something about a pound, from the most respectable ; and downwards, to very small sums. At marriages it is usual to have what is termed bride cake ; and at a respectable marriage, a clergyman may get from five pounds to ten or fifteen pounds, each person gives a pound, or whatever he pleases. I believe these to be the principal sources from which they derive their emolu- ments. What do they get at the marriages of the poorest people? — I think I have heard from half-a-guinea to one pound ten shillings. What do you suppose is the income of the Catholic clergy- man of your own parish ? — It has been considered the best parish by much in the diocese ; the priest died about two months back, and the parish is now divided into two. Here- tofore it was considered to produce better than 400/. a year ; now that will make for each parish priest, as I am informed, and I believe correctly, something about 200/. a year. What number of curates are there?— For this they will maintain one curate for each 200/. ; the 200/. includes the whole of the things that come in. Is the curate maintained exclusively at the expense of the rector? — Certainly, the curate has one-fifth of the produce of the parish arising from the dues I have spoken to, the clergy- man being obliged to maintain him besides. What is the general opinion as to the value of the parish to the Protestant rector ? — I can speak positively to that, from being the commissioner in the case ; it is something about 440/. a-year, with a charming glebe house, and about 3.3 acres of very prime land. 4;^ MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINE!). Independent of the glebe house and these 35 acres, the Ca- tholic receives as much as the Protestant ? — No, the Catholic receives 200/. ; and heretofore the parish of Ballynakill com- prised the parishes of Abbeyleix, Ballynakill, and Ballyroan ; now, in Abbeyleix, I believe, the Tithe Bill has not come into operation, but I believe the rector expects above 500/. per an- num, independent of his glebe house and lands ; Ballyroan I know, because the Bill has been in operation, I think it is 440/. per annum, and Ballynakill cannot be under that sum, but we have yet two years of the average to ascertain. Ballynakill is the parish which was divided by the Catholic clergyman into two? — Yes. It paid 400/. a year before it was divided to the Catholic clergyman ; what does it pay to the Protestant? — Something more than 1,300/.; for, besides glebe houses and lands, it is composed of the three parishes I have referred to ; and Dr. Doyle has divided the parish, thinking 200/. a year enough for a Catholic clergyman. Then the Catholic clergyman receives about one-third what the Protestant does ? — Yes, independent of the glebe lands and house. Do you mean to say, that before the division which was made by Dr. Doyle, the Catholic parish or Catholic union was precisely co-extensive with the Protestant ? — The Catholic union comprised the parish of Abbeyleix, the parish of Bally- roan, and Ballynakill. Which was the largest of the two, the Protestant or th6 Catholic ?^ — The Roman Catholic equalized those three Pro- testant parishes, and was, in point of extent, fully equal at all events. How much do you say the Protestant clergyman received out of all these parishes ? — ^The Protestant rector and vicar of Abbeyleix, will receive, I am informed, under the Tithe Bill, something more than 500/. per annum ; in Ballyna- kill the sum will not be under 440/. and I think it likely it may be a little over ; and in Ballyroan the Bill is in operation, and the sum agreed for there, I think and believe, is 440/. And the glebe house besides ? — The glebe house of Abbej^- leix and the glebe lands, with the glebe and glebe lands of Ballynakill. Do the Protestant clergymen reside in either of these glebe houses? — ^The Protestant clergyman of Abbeyleix has always resided in his parish ; I believe his curate resides in the glebe house ; the Protestant clergyman of Ballynakill having been lately appointed, intends, I have heard, residing in his glebe- house. MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 43 The result of this then is, that there are three Protestant parishes pretty nearly co-extensive with two Roman Catholic, as they now stand? — Yes; the two producing, as I think, 400/. a-year ; each 200/. And the Protestant producing, independent of the glebe- houses and lands, 1,380/.? — Yes. Are not the Catholics as much interested in the present set- tlement of the landed property in Ireland as the Protestants? ' — Yes, to the full extent ; we are very sensible, that if the least interference in the settlement of property was to take place, our properties in common would go into the scramble, and we should lose all. When you say the Catholics, you mean the existing Catho- lic proprietors ? — Yes, certainly. Is there not a great extent of the landed property in Ire- land now in the possession of Catholics ? — There is, to a great extent ; I speak of my own knowledge, independent of my own neighbourhood ; in my own neighbourhood, there are Catholics residing, who possess considerable estates in fee, in the counties of Tipperary, Wexford, Kilkenny, and elsewhere. Has not a large quantity of landed property been purchased of late years by Catholics ? — Yes ; whenever opportunities have presented themselves, they have endeavoured to pur- chase. Are there not Catholics who have large estates under per- petual leases? — Yes. And also under leases, that have a considerable time to run ? — Yes. Then the Catholics are interested, in your opinion, in pre- serving the settlement of the landed property in Ireland .? — They are ; they are under the conviction, that if any unfortu- nate scramble took place, in common with the rest of their fellow-subjects, they would lose their property also. Would it be possible to restore to the old proprietors the property taken from them?— No ; certainly not. Could the original proprietors be discovered? — I believe they could not. You believe there is no ground for the view^s which Catho- lics have been represented to have, of interfering with the settlement of the landed property in Ireland ? — Upon that, I conceive, I am well informed ; and my opinion is, they have no foundation whatever. Is the majority of the present Roman Catholic property in Ireland held under the same holdings as the Protestant pro- perty ?— Precisely. And very little under the original holdings ? — I believe 44 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. there is very little from the original holders ; I am not aware of any. You were examined yesterday, with respect to the circula- tion of Pastorini's prophecies ; were you aware, that hand- bills had been circulated in the county of Limerick, contain- ing an extract of those prophecies, and observations, trying to inculcate the probability of their being fulhlled? — I never heard it until this day : I never heard of such an occurrence. Then those handbills having been so circulated in the county of Limerick, are you of opinion they could have been circu- lated by individuals having any other views but those of pro- moting insurrection and disturbance? — I conceive they cannot have had any other object in view^ but that of promoting in- surrection and disturbance, and that they must be the bitter- est enemies the Roman Catholics can possibly have. You stated yesterday that there were no Roman Catholic grand jurors in your county ; do you mean to say there are none placed upon the grand jury, or none qualified to be grand juries ? — I meant to say that I think there are Roman Catho- lics in Queen's County of equal respectability and intelli- gence, and possessing equal property with many serving on the grand jury ; but I am not prepared to say it is done from any invidious or unkind motive. Have there never been Roman Catholics on the grand jury? — I never recollect an instance of a grand juryman there of the Roman Catholic persuasion. Have you ever known gentlemen of that description attend the sheriff, with a view to be put upon the jury? — Never. Then would the sheriff have the power? — I am not aware whether they ever did. Was it from non-attendance, and not indisposition on the part of the sheriff, that they were not placed upon the jury? — I do not know whether they waited upon the sheriff, for the purpose of being placed upon it, or not ; I have no knowledge one way or the other. What number of Roman Catholics, of rank and considera- tion, have been left out of the grand jury of the Queen's County ? — 1 do not say any have been left out, but have not been called upon it ; there is one possessed of an estate in fee, and I think others of equal respectability, having considerable property, though not in Queen's County, but there are a great many Protestants, who serve on the grand jury in the Queen's County, who have not an estate in fee. Are you aware whether the Roman Catholic gentlemen con- sider this a grievance ? — The Roman Catholic gentlemen are in the habit of talking the matter over, and they do consider it a grievance. MR. JOHN DUXN EXAMINED. 45 Are you aware that that is not the case in adjoining coun- ties? — I am aware in the county of Kilkenny, and the county of Tipperary, it is otherwise ; and I would mention Waterford too, and I believe Wexford. Do you consider that the Roman Catholics have, generally speaking, been advancing or otherwise, in property, during the last seven or eight years? — I consider that they are ad- vancing in property. In what species of property? — Both in commercial and landed property. Do you conceive that the majority of middle men, in the south and west of Ireland, have been Catholics or Protes- tants ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the districts re- ferred to, to answer that. Do you consider that the acquisition of landed property, by the Roman Catholics, has been principally in the shape of fee simple, or of leasehold property ? — I think the greater propor- tion in leasehold property, giving fines upon it, and getting perpetuities, rendering it a valuable interest. Do not you consider that the great depression in agricul- tural produce has fallen much more severely on those possess- ing leasehold interests than on those who are owners in fee? — The proportion of leasehold interests being much greater than the fee, the depression must have affected both, but I think those who have purchased within a few years back have suffered immensely, in common with those who have given large fines on perpetuities. Do not you think that the advance in agricultural prices during the war, tended to create a great increase of property in the hands of lessees, ascontra-dis tinguished from their landlords ? — I think it did. Do not you think that circumstance operated very much to raise into respectability a great class of Roman Catholics? — I think it did, equally with the Protestants; where Roman Catholics were greater in number a greater number were ad- vanced, where it was less a lesser number were advanced. You think the depression in those prices has operated in a corresponding manner, but in the opposite direction ? — Exactly. Have you any knowledge in what degree Roman Catholics are proprietors of bank stock in Ireland ?— No, I cannot form an opinion ; but I know that Roman Catholics hold a great quantity of bank stock, and all kinds of government securities. Can you say whether the Royal Canal was a mode of in- vesting money in which Catholics were engageil ? — I know nothing of the Royal Canal, thank God, nor any thing of that nature. Do you conceive that the majority of men of capital and of 46 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED/ persons employed in commerce in Dublin, are Protestants or Roman Catholics?— I think it would be a very diflicult task for me to state that, as I am not in the habit of asking men their creed ; but I know a vast number of Roman Catholics of considerable wealth in Dublin, commanding great capital. Are the Committee to understand that you do not know the proportion of Protestants and Catholics in Dublin ? — I do not know which is the majority of them ; I never took pains to ascertain the creed of them. Is there any merchant in Dublin about whose creed you have any doubts ? — There are several whose creed I do not know. With whom you are acquainted? — Yes; there are several with whom I have intercourse whose creed I do not know at this moment. In your opinion what would be the effect of improved edu- cation and increased wealth on the Catholic body in Ireland? — • Educate them w^ell, and I apprehend they will sooner see their state of degradation ; I do not think any thing can more con- vince them of their degraded state, than to educate and bring home to their full comprehension, that they are not on a footing with their fellow citizens. To what class of society do the priests of your part of the country usually belong ? — The higher ranks of society in the Queen's County are of the established church. From what ranks of society are the Catholic priests in your county drawn ? — They are generally taken from the humble classes of farmers, but within the last ten or fifteen years the Roman Catholics bishops have been considerably more parti- cular, and they will not accept of those that are not from a better or higher grade of Catholic families. It is very desirable that they should be drawn from the higher classes ? — It is so considered. Do not you think, that giving the Roman Catholic clergy a respectable and suitable maintenance would have a great effect in producing that ? — Without conceding to the body political emancipation, I am under the impression that it would not be accepted of; nor would it be of any value ; the people would look on their clergy Avith a jealous eye, as more under the influence of those from whom they had money than attentive to their religious duties. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 47 9° die Junii, 1824. The Reverend Michael Collins called in ; and Examined. You are a Roman Catholic clergyman? — I am. You reside in the county of Cork and officiate there ? — I am parish priest of Skibbereen, in the county of Cork. How many years have you resided there ? — Since March, 1814. Previously to officiating at Skibbereen as parish priest, were you not officiating in another part of the county in that capacity? — Yes, at Castletownroche and Bally holy. The neighbourhood of Castletownroche has been very much disturbed of late ? — So I heard. The part of the county in which you have resided latterly about Skibbereen, has that been disturbed ? — No; save only the riot occasioned by Mr. Morrett's tithe exactions, where one police man, and two of the country people and a bailiff were killed. Was the condition of the peasantry of the lower orders, at the time you left the town of Castletownroche, better or worse than that of the parish to which you have now gone ? — Better, I conceive ; but then there is a diilerence in the periods of time ; in March, 1814, or the succeeding month, the war ceased, and a depression in the value of land imme- diately ensued, and a consequent cessation of employment of the poor. The question refers to the actual condition of the people with respect to comfort — has their comfort in general been higher at Castletownroche than at Skibbereen? — Yes, the farmers were more substantial ; they had larger farms, and the labourers, as far as I could judge, more comfortable and better fed. They had pretty constant work in that part of the country ? — Yes. Are you well acquainted with the condition of the peasantry in both parishes ? — I have had opportunities of knowing it, and have availed myself of them. What do you consider to have been the causes which led to the late disturbances? — I conceive the causes of discontent . are many : first, the sudden depression of value in the pro- duce of land, and the inability of occupiers of land to pay the rents assumed during the war ; secondly, the consequence of this inability, the non-employment of the labouring poor ; 48 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. the pressure of heavy rents ; the pressure of tithes and local taxes ; but principally the exactions of landlords and tithe owners, and other tithe agents ; the mal-administration of jus- tice ; the partial and corrupt administration of justice. On the part of the magistrates ? — On the part of the ma- gistrates and in the manor courts ; and the impression upon the minds of the common people, that there was no law for them but the will of the magistrates ; and that there was no law from which they could derive redress, no fixed law of the land, except through the interest or favour they may happen to possess with magistrates. Do you conceive there was any political cause ? — I think there was one great cause that will always, so long as it exists, predispose the people to disturbance, and to suspect (perhaps without cause) the administration of justice ; that is, their being, in their own minds, a degraded and oppressed class, when they compare themselves with other classes of the king's subjects. Do you allude to their political disabilities ? — I do most distinctly. Do you think that is felt by them as a cause of grievance? — I know it is. It is not felt as a practical and immediate grievance ; but it is felt by them as a cause why they have not the same confidence in those in power as the favoured classes have, and why they are oppressed, because they consider them- selves to be looked on as belonging to a degraded caste. Can you give the Committee any instances from which you are led to conclude that they do take a lively interest in that question? — There was a measure lately proposed by the asso- ciation in Dublin, called the Catholic Association, to raise a fund for the redress of Catholic grievances, and for the pro- motion of what they called the Catholic cause in this country through the medium of the press ; the proposal was, that there should be a monthly penny or half-penny subscription, accord- ing to the ability or will of the individuals for the promotion of that object, and wherever that project has been introduced, it has been taken up most ardently by the people. Do you knowi^ of any collection having been made ? — Yes ; to produce a collection, it is necessary that some individual or individuals should take the lead. I have not in my parish in- troduced it, nor has any other individual yet. I have not in- troduced it, because I am the Catholic clergyman, and I do not wish to combine much politics with my duty as a priest ; but if it were introduced, I would second and promote it. I have particular reasons for not so doing at present, for I am under the necessity of endeavouring to build, by voluntary subscrip- REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 49 tions (having no other means), a Catholic chapel, and I ap- prehend, that the raising such a subscription at present would impede the progress of the chapel ; but I know that in the town of Cionakilty it has been introduced, and I have been assured lately, that the farmers, and even the labourers, most ardently embrace the opportunity of manifecting their attach- ment to what they call the cause of the Catholics, by contri- buting. You consider that as a proof of the interest they take?— Yes. How much money has been raised ? — I was told by a person that acted as secretary, that in one month they had ten pounds ready to be transmitted, and that there might be ten pounds more for local purposes, and to defray some expenses of pub- lication. Was it all collected in pennies ? — In pennies. That was remitted to the Catholic Association? — It was to be remitted to the Catholic Association. Do you conceive that the granting the Catholic Question, as it is called, would contribute immediately to tranquillize the minds of the people? — I do not conceive it would imme- diately produce tranquillity ; but I think it would lay such a foundation, that if it were accompanied with a redress of other grievances, it would lead to the tranquillization of the country, and to what I conceive to be the cordial union iu social and civil matters of the people of all classes and reli- gious sects ; the people would be amalgamated into one common mass. Do you think that, without that foundation, the other mea- sures you have alluded to woidd be sufficient ? — I think they may produce temporary quiet, but I do not think the country would be permanently so ; when I say that I think the coun- try would not be perm.anently quiet, I mean to say, that I do not think the people generally would have that affectionate attachment to the present order of things, as would induce them to step forward and support the existing government in any exigency. You have alluded to the general impression, that justice was not fairly administered; in that observation, you allude to the conduct of magistrates generally throughout the country? — Yes. Can you state to the Committee, to what extent you think that defect in the administration of the law is felt, and any instances which you think would throw a light upon the sub- ject? — I think that evil has been considerably diminished since the introduction of the gystem of holding petty sessions, £ ^ 60 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. whereby the magistrates act in open court, and under the re- straint of the public opinion ; they are more or less cognizant by public opinion, and their acts are liable to be scrutinized ; but before that institution, I do know several instances, I have known magistrates who had no other visible mode of support, but the trade they carried on as magistrates. Do you mean taking fees? — Receiving presents to a large amount, having their work done, presents of potatoes, corn and cattle, and presents of money too. Having potatoes dug for them? — Having potatoes dug for them, their turf cut, and their other work done, if they had any to do ; they were supported by the contributions thus raised, and by donations in money. I do not state this of my own personal knowledge, but as the common belief. Do you speak of that part of the county v/here you are now established, or of that part of the county where you lived be- fore? — ^Thatpart where I live at present. Were those matters notorious? — As notorious as the noon- day sun. Does that subsist still ? — I cannot say that it subsists to the extent that it subsisted heretofore. You speak as to the extent of the evil, but with regard to the impression as to the facility of obtaining strict justice, ■was that felt in the former parish in which you were, as well as in the latter? — 1 certainly must own, that I did not hear of any complaints in the part of the country where I resided, when parish priest of Castletownroche. How long have you been in your present parish ? — Since the year 1814. The principal reason why no complaints existed in Castletownroche, is this, the gentlemen that had the com- mission of the peace in that part of the county were princi- pally gentlemen of high rank and character; and if others came into that office, they were under their control, more or less ; and I do conceive, that where gentlemen of high rank and character resided and acted, there was less abuse than where the office of magistrate was committed to persons of little property, and of very inferior education. Have not several of the objectionable magistrates in that county which you have gone to reside in, been removed? — Some of them ; and some meritorious magistrates too. Have you known instances of particular misconduct on the part of magistrates? — Indeed the instances were so numerous in that part of the country, they were so constant, as scarcely to excite particular notice; I have known instances within my own knowledge. is there any delicacy on the part of magistrates; in inteiv REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 51 fering with respect to complaints made by the tenants of other gentlemen against their landlords ? — Yes ; I do not know whether that has been diminished since the institution of the petty sessions, because, I take it, they now think it compulsory upon tl'.em to listen to complaints ; but before the institution of petty sessions, that sort of etiquette existed ; a man applying for justice was often obliged to shift about in vain from one magistrate to another. It was thought an unneighbourly and unkind thing? — Yes, and a breach of gentlemanly conduct, to take informations where gentlemen were concerned. Do you consider that the lower orders are attached, or otherwise, to the gentry of the country ? — I do not think they are very much attached to them. Do not you consider, that sometimes that unwillingness was caused by a belief that the complaint was very often frivolous ? — No, I do not think so on that ground, but it was conceived it would be a breach of respect and regard. Are the Committee to understand, that when a tenant came to a magistrate to complain against his landlord, that if the magistrate found what was the nature of the intended complaint, he declined hearing it altogether; that it was not that he refused to act upon it, having listened to it, but that it often occurred that he refused to hear the statement of it ? — If the person of whom the complaint was made were a gen- tlem.an, or ranked as a gentleman, and he were on good terma with the magistrate to whom the application for redress was made, the magistrate very often declined interfering, because it would lead to a personal result between him and the gentleman. In any of those cases in which you have known magistrates decline receiving informations, v/ere they, in point of fact, applied to when there were other magistrates, who lived nearer the residence of the complainant, who had been passed over? — In general the application was made, first to the ma- gistrate nearest, and then to one more remote ; the nearer magistrate would probably not interfere, because he would assign some pretext, the remote magistrate would not inter- fere, because the nearer did not. When you speak of magistrates of that district, do you describe middle men in general, or gentlemen of property ? — There are a very few gentlemen of rank in the district, but where gentlemen of rank and education reside and act, justice is generally very fairly dispensed. Is not Lord Carberry a resident in the county ?— Not inline* diately in the part where I reside. 6 ^ r 52 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Spending a very large income in the country? — Yes ; he has a large income. You have stated, that you do not think, there is much at- tachment on the part of the peasantry of Ireland to the gentry ; but where a gentleman, having patrimonial interest in the soil resides, and conducts himself vv^ell to the people, is there not a great disposition to be attached to him ? — A great dis- position ; but I am afraid there is a feeling amongst the peo- ple that deducts considerably from that attachment ; they feel that they exist more by sufferance than by law ; but wherever they are treated kindly they are grateful, because they think the kindness extraordinary, and the result of natural benevo- lence rather than of the law ; nevertheless, though they are grateful to the individual, they are disaffected to the system. Since the establishment of petty sessions, do the magistrates ever act in their individual capacity out of petty sessions ? — Yes ; instances have come to my knowledge. In what cases ? — In tithe cases ; I have heard of their act- ing out of petty sessions in other cases too. In tithe cases two magistrates must act. To what kind of tithe cases do you allude ? — I was going to state, what the Committee are aware of, that there is an Act of Parliament that enables magistrates, not being clergymen, to adjudicate tithes in a summary way, upon a complaint made by tithe claimants for the substraction of tithe. Veneris, 11° die Junii, 1S24. The Right Hon. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Michael Collins again called in ; and Examined. Before you left the county of Cork, was it generally known that you had been summoned over to attend this Committee ? > — It was. What impression did it make upon the people of the coun- / try ? — it appeared to me to have excited sensations of delight amongst the Catholics in our neighbourhood, and among the people interested in the general welfare of the country. What did they understand by the summons you had received? —They understood the summons was for the purpose of eliciting REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 53 information as to the real state of the country, and the causes of distress and discontents that exist. You have stated on a former day, that a leading cause of disturbance was the discontent felt by the people in conse- quence of the laws that deprive them of certain political pri- vileges ? — Yes ; it appears to me that that is the root of all the discontents. Does that keep their minds in a state susceptible of any in- surrectionary contagion in the neighbourhood, coming from the neighbouring counties ? — They look upon themselves as disfavoured, almost as aliens in the country, having no com- mon interest with the more favoured part of the community. Any neighbouring disturbance spreads rapidly amongst them? — I am satisfied, that notwithstanding the influence of the priests and the exertions of the gentry, and the remon- strances used to the people in our part of the country, which I think contributed to keep them quiet, that the flame of insurrection, which was arrested by the suppression of the explosion, if I may so call the open attack made by the popu- lace upon the military near Macroom, had it reached our part of the country, would have been caught and have spread through it ; I am convinced of it. Have they any definite notions of the manner in which the penal laws aflect them ? — No, I do not think they have any definite notions upon that point ; they look upon themselves as contrasted with the Protestants of their own rank, and as degraded compared with them. They feel themselves insulted, and are sensible of what they consider the insolence which the Protestant peasantry feel on account of the privileges they enjoy. Do they fancy they are more degraded than they really are? — I think they do, for they are not fully aware of the extent of the repeal of the penal code. They fancy the Protestants are more protected than they really are ? — They fancy that whenever there is a competition and contest between them and the Protestants, the Protestants would be always the favoured party. Does this feeling contribute to counteract the good effect of measures that are intended for their good? — I am satisfied it does. It perpetuates jealousy and distrust. In cases where landlords act with great kindness towards them, is not that benevolent disposition considerably counter- acted by the general feeling of the people in regard to their political condition ? — It is ; they are sensible of the kind- ness of individuals, but they are still discontented with the By stem. 54 BEV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Are there any recollections prevalent in the county, with reg-ard to the old times, the conquest of Ireland by the English ? — There are those recollections ; they appear to me to be up- held and perpetuated by the distinction created by the law. Have they traditions in the country of what happened in those times ? — They have traditions and tales about the mas* sacre and execution of priests, the priest-hunters, and the difficulty they had heretofore in hearing mass; they were obliged to resort to bogs and morasses for that purpose. They have also recollections of the liberty, and what they conceive the privileges they enjoyed formerly, compared with their present degraded state. Do they feel that their religion Avas persecuted in former times ? — They know it was ; and there are many people living still, that will tell you tales of persecution, and tales of pro- tection affonled by individual Protestants. Do they refer to periods during the reigns of Queen Anne and George the First ? — They have not those distinct historical recollections; they talk of Elizabeth frequently, they talk of the invasion of the Spaniards in 1601, and of Lord Tyrone coming down to assist them, of Lord Mountjoy and the massacres of that period. Do they recollect any thing about Cromwell, or know any thing from tradition ? — They have Cromwell's Bridge, and there are many places that are pointed out by the name of Cromwell ; they know even the individuals that are descended from the soldiers of Cromwell. Is there such an expression as, *' The Curse of Cromwell" ? •—Yes, I have heard that expression. What does it mean? — I do not know what definite meaning it has; I think it means, that such a calamity as Cromwell brought upon the country may fall upon you. How is the expression usetl ?— It is used as a curse. At what period in the last century, between 1700 and 1800, did the persecution of the priests cease to exist ? — I believe no practical persecution existed beyond the year 1779, nor for some time before that, I believe, because there was a law passed, that enabled priests to register themselves as parish priests, or as priests of particular districts, and allowed them to officiate. In the reign of George the First and George the Se- cond, was there not a good deal of persecution? — Yes; it is frequently recollected ; I recollect myself hearing my father tell a story of an uncle of his who v/as a priest, having been met by a gentleman of influence in the country at a funeral, it was the old Sir John, or Sir Richard Cox, the REV. -MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 55 son of the Chancellor of that name ; at this funeral a number of priests attended, but they did not accompany the funeral in any badges that would designate them as clergymen, they were all dressed as farmers ; he supposed them to be priests, and came up to them, and asked one of them what he was ; one said that he was a farmer, and another said that he was a shoemaker, or something of that kind, endeavouring to elude his inquiries, because they knew they should be taken up ; this old gentleman said he was a farmer ; he was recognised about ten or twenty years afterwards, in different parts of the county, by the said Sir Richard Cox, and saluted as a farmer by Sir Richard, though he knew he was a priest under the protection of the law. What effect have these penal laws, with regard to the Ca- tholics, upon the lower classes of Protestants, with respect to their treatment of Catholics ? — It gives them a sort of confi- dence to commit crimes against the Roman Catholics in many instances ; it produces insolence in their demeanour and in their conduct, and, on the other hand it produces, in the Ca- tholics, irritation and something like indignation ; however, those feelings are often superseded by the more natural feelings of good neighbourhood and social affection ; it is only when distinctions are generally encouraged in the country, by a political party, that the bonds of society are broken asunder, and then they range themselves under their several banners. Is the same kind of influence discovered working amongst the upper orders of Protestants? — I do think that a sort of politeness, the effect of a good education, restrains in a great measure the expression of such feelings, where they exist ; but, however, there is, amongst the upper order of Catho- lics, a certain humble feeling, which prevents them from feel- ing that they are upon a level with Protestants of the same rank, except in places where the superior numbers of the Ca- tholics more or less counterbalances the effect of the penal code. Do vou allude to a habit of submission ? — Yes ; and even a Catholic gentleman, should he get the commission of the peace, or any other situation, or any other office of honour or of emo- lument, does not rely upon his tenure as confidently as a Pro- testant of the same rank does ; he thinks it is more or less pre- carious ; that he is not sure of holding his place ; that he is liable to be removed, he knows not how or why. Will you explain what you mean by the penal code •. — Those disqualifying laws, that deprive the Catholics of certain privi- leges which Protestants of the same rank in life enjoy. Having described the effect of the penal code upon the body 56 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. of Catholics, will you explain to the Committee in what way you conceive the removal of that penal code would operate, in producing- a better feeling and better disposition ? — I think the removal of those artificial distinctions created by law be- tween Protestants and Catholics, as they affect the social and civil relations, would tend to obliterate those unpleasant re- collections and feelings that are perpetuated by the penal code ; that the Catholic would feel himself elevated, and the Protestant sunk to his proper rank ; that there would be no distinctions between Catholics and Protestants, except the distinctions which the natural relations of society would pro- duce ; the Catholic peasant and the Protestant peasant would be upon a common level ; the Catholic gentleman and the Pro- testant gentleman would be upon a common level ; and the Catholic peasant would respect the Protestant gentleman, not because he is a Protestant, but because he is a gentleman ; the Protestant peasant would respect the Catholic gentleman, or would cease to despise him ; and in fact, the interference of religious feelings with social and political duties or rela- tions would be altogether removed. Would it contribute practically and extensively to quell the spirit of insurrection ? — I am convinced it would ; and that by the extinction of the undue superiority on the one hand, and the undue humiliation on the other, the inhabitants of all de- nominations would all soon fall into one cordial feeling with respect to civil and political matters, and that there would be no religious distinctions between Protestants and Catholics, except their going on days of worship to their several places of worship. Do you think it would produce immediate tranquillity in the country? — Not that single measure. Would it prepare their minds to become more tranquil ? — I think it would prepare their minds in that way ; nor do I think that in all cases the irritations that have been provoked, by the long continuance of that code, would be elFaced from the minds of the present generation instantly ; but I am sure, that, in ten or twenty years, no traces of religious differences, connected with political matters, would exist in the country. It would lay a foundation for all measures calculated to im- prove their condition, having their proper and full effect ? — It wo\ild ; it would produce a moral revolution in the country, or rather a moral reformation. Without the repeal of this penal code, do you think that the various measures that have been suggested, if carried into effect for their improvement, will have the effect they ought to have ? — I do not think they would. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 57 What effect do you conceive the removal of this penal cocW would have, in respect to strengthening the connexion between Ireland and England ? — I think that the connexion between Ireland and England would, in that case, be consolidated and indissoluble ; for in spite of the operation of that code, it is every day strengthening, from the confidence which the Irish people generally have, that it is to England alone they are to look for justice and relief ; from the sense they have of the equity and magnanimity of the English people. They think that England has hitherto done much for them, and is likely to do more ; this impression has been particularly made upon the minds of the peasantry ; and notwithstanding the preju- dices that existed against the English heretofore, arising from the recollections of former persecutions, they have latterly attached themselves to England, especially since the year 1822, they looked to England, and to England alone for relief, both from what they conceived their present grievances, and for future improvement and prosperity. Every reflecting man in the country considers the destinies of Ireland are bound up with England. Do you find a feeling growing generally through that part of the country you are acquainted with, in favour of England ? — Universally ; when the agents of the relief com- mittee came over, they were hailed as deliverers by the people. Men carried bonfires on their heads through the streets, sa- luting them ; men carried pitch barrels on their heads, the upper parts of them on fire ; and this joy and gratitude were testified not only in the town, but in the country, wherever Mr. Waddington and Mr. Warmington went. I myself wit- nessed the gentlemen shedding tears, so much were they affected by the gratitude of the people. Are they acquainted with the proceedings in Parliament, sufficiently to know that their condition is matter of consider- able attention ? — Those that can read are very anxious to get political information, and they diffuse that information among their uninformed neighbours. And they have some acquaintance in this way, with what is going forward in Parliament in respect to their condition ? — They have a great anxiety to get information on these points. Supposing that those political distinctions were abolished, do you think the minds of the well informed portion of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity would thereupon become perfectly satisfied ? — As Roman Catholics they would, certainly. Do you think, with respect to the establishments of the country, with respect to the existing Protestant church esta- blishments, that that would not remain a cause of complaint 58 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED- and grievance? — Not at all; the church establishment is a temporal establishment, as connected with the constitution of the country ; they have no jealousy on that score. Do you sincerely believe that, generally speaking, in the minds of the Roman Catholic clergy, there is not any dispo- sition to disturb or dispossess the Protestant hierarchy? — I do most sincerely believe it, and would make the most solemn declaration to that effect ; I can undertake to say, that not a single Catholic clergyman in Ireland will contradict what I aver, that they, as Catholics, have no views whatsoever to the disturbance of the establishment. You think there may be upon the minds of many persons, Protestants or Catholics, objections to the present mode in which the church establishment is administered? — There are many persons, Catholics and Protestants, who read books upon political economy, and who derive information on these points, not from Catholic writers, but from the most eminent Protestant writers, and who entertain opinions respecting the church establishment in Ireland, that it would be more con- sistent with the public good if that establishment were re- duced ; but with no views whatever of substituting a Catho- lic establishment, or giving any portion of the temporalities of the Protestant church to the Catholic church. There are political opinions upon that subject, which Ro- man Catholics, as well as Protestants, entertain ? — In com- mon with Protestants, but not at all connected with their feelings as Catholics ; none of those opinions emanate from any feelings or opinions connected with the Roman Catholic religion. If the Protestant establishment in Ireland is at present ex- posed to any danger, do you think that it is from the part of the Roman Catholics, or from the part of the political economist, that that danger is to be apprehended ? — I con- sider that the Roman Catholics, as such, have nothing at all to do with the danger. You understand, in giving your answers, that you are speaking alone of the church establishment of the Protestant religion in Ireland, as established by law, and particularly by the Act of Union? — The Protestant religion, as established by law in Ireland, which is the established religion of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. And as such, no Catholic clergyman has the slightest dis- position to derange that establishment ? — Not the slightest ; nor th^ least ambition to acquire any portion of the property of that establishment, nor to elevate themselves by its decline. If the measure of emancipation was carried, would the Ca- BEV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 59 tholic clergy, or the Catholics in general, have any idea of expecting that the Catholic bishops should be allowed to sit in Parliament? — No, they have not the least; indeed the idea would appear ridiculous; I am convinced, that if there were a revolution in Ireland, that would separate it from this country to-morrow, the Irish people, though arranging for themselves a system of temporal support for their reli- gion, would have no representative establishment for the Catholic clergy, nor raise them to any political honours; nor are they ambitious that their clergy should be raised at all in rank higher than they are at present ; they wish to have them merely religious ministers. Are there many Protestant peasantry in the part of the country where you reside ? — There are a good many. Do you know what proportion they bear to the Roman Ca- tholic peasantry? — I think the Protestant peasantry may be as about one to fifteen in the country parts ; in the town part they are more numerous. You say those Protestants behave themselves with insolence towards the Roman Catholics ? — There is not that exaspe- rating insolence in their manner, but in their conduct and their manners ; they betray a consciousness of superiority, which operates upon the Catholic minds. You have also said that the Roman Catholics have an idea that those lower classes of Protestants have the privilege of committing crimes with impunity ? — Yes. Does that arise from any instances of such impunity having occurred? — Instances have occurred, and it always happens that the Protestant peasant will have a much better chance of eluding justice than the Catholic. It is an opinion upon the minds of the Roman Catholics ; I cannot refer to any parti- cular instances at present, but I have the general recollection and impression upon my mind. The impression prevails upon the minds of the lower or- ders ? — Yes. Have you ever used any means to disabuse them of that impression ? — I have used means to disabuse them of the im- pression, that there existed no fixed rule of law, which, if duly administered, would render it unnecessary for the com- mon people to resort to illegal means for the redress of griev- ances. I have endeavoured to propagate the opinion among the people, that such a rule existed, and to elevate their minds, and to lead them to rely on the laws that are in force. I have endeavoured to tell them that the Protestants are on a common level with themselves ; but they conceive that the 60 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Protestant must have more favour, and has more favour with those who are the ministers of justice than the Catholic. They pay no attention to your explanations ? — Those expla- nations I do not give in public ; it is only in my private com- munications with the people. In my public addresses, when there is any danger or apprehension of disturbance, I dwell upon the Christian duties, the principles of submission to the existing laws. I also dwell upon the claims which the go- vernment has upon the obedience of the people ; and I refer them in like manner to the equity, and to the great kindness that Britain has manifested to their country. I also endea- vour to convince them, that they are very wrong in general with respect to their Protestant landlords and neighbours ; that many of them are practically kind to them, that they ought to rely on them, and that they must bear patiently evils that cannot be cured by violence, but may be cured by sub- mission and Christian forbearance, on their part. Your private exhortations, endeavouring to disabuse them as to the opinions they entertain with respect to their Pro- testant neighbours, do not produce an effect to counteract the impression that they have? — No, they do not. You stated that the Roman Catholic peasantry have a lively recollection of the penal code, and the evils they suffered from it? — They have. They frequently refer to it ? — They mention it in the tra- ditionary tales of the history of their country ; and those re- collections are revived when any instance of abuse or violence occurs. Have you heard them allude frequently to the periods when that code has been relaxed ? — Yes ; they contrast the present days with what they were formerly. Do they look with sentiments of equal gratitude to the re- laxation of 1779, as with sentiments of abhorrence to the previous state ? — They do. You have stated that you have heard instances mentioned in which persecutions have been referred to by them ; do you recollect instances in which they have mentioned the relaxa- tions which have been made ? — I recollect instances where they have compared their present condition with what they were formerly ; and they ascribe this to the change of laws, as they regard the Catholics. Do they use the word Sassenagh in your part of the coun- try ? — Yes. To what does that apply ? — It has departed from its origi- nal meaning of " English'" to <' Protestant" REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 61 Is it used as a term of approval or reproach ? — It is neither one nor the other, the true meaning of it is Englishman ; there is no Irish term for Protestant. They first knew a Pro- testant in the person only of an Englishman, and therefore they have identified it with him ; nor have they any Irish 'term for Catholics, they say Catholicky in Irish ; but when they contrast a Protestant with a Catholic, Erinech (Irishman) is the term for Catholic. Have you any Irish name for Papist ? — No term but Ca- tholicke. Is not that rather considered a term of reproach to call a man a Papist, instead of calling him a Roman Catholic ? — In the mouth of a Protestant it would be a term of reproach. But not in the mouth of a Catholic ? — No ; then it is only used in irony or jest. Have they any term for an Englishman that has become a Catholic? — They say he was an Englishman, but he is now become an Irishman ; but then in expressing those words, they have not the original ideas annexed to the words Sasse- nagh and Erinech; in their meaning it is " Proteslant," and *< Catholic,'''' they forget the original meaning of the words, and they only retain their present signification. Do you conceive the present disabilities of Roman Catho- lics affect them at all in any degree analogous to that in which they were afiected under the old penal laws ? — I believe they produce a moral degradation and abasement in their minds ; they debase them below their proper level, in their own minds ; it is a demoralizing effect that is produced. How is that effect produced? — They look upon themselves as more or less aliens in their own country ; as a degraded cast, having a privileged order above them ; for instance, a Roman Catholic peasant knows that if he should have a son or grandson, that by chance would acquire learning or riches, let his talent and merits be ever so great, should he go to the bar, he must stop short after a certain course ; he knows, that though his son may be a lawyer or attorney, he cannot become a judge, attorney-general, nor even a sub-sheriff of a county. He knows that, as a Catholic, he could not have so much interest with the Protestant sherift', as a Protestant has in nominating jurors. I will give a practical illustration that occurred the other day, in appointing the quarter-ses- sions grand jury at Bantry ; some Catholic persons of con- siderable opulence there, felt themselves aggrieved because they were excluded from the grand jury at that quarter-ses- sions ; while Protestants, having no property but a half- pay of forty pounds a year, were put upon it, a gentleman 62 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. worth three or four thousand pounds in cash was excluded, and a half-pay officer (a Protestant) put upon the grand jury. Did that occur in more than one instance ; was there more than one person of very small property summoned to attend, and more than one Catholic of property excluded ? — I under- stand that the great proportion of the Protestants upon the grand jury, were persons of comparatively small property. Do you know the names of the Catholics that were ex- cluded ? — A Mr. Connell was one of them, I will give another instance which occurred the other day at Skibbereen ; I know a young gentleman, a brewer, who makes by his brewery from seven to eight hundred a vear ; I heard it complained of in his family that it was a hardship that he, being a Catholic, should be excluded from the grand jury, while other persons having very little property in the country were put on. Were there any Roman Catholics upon the grand jury? — Certainly there were. Of property, or without? — Some without property, and some with it ; but in this place, there appeared to have been particular interest. Then the exclusion arose from the want of interest on the part of those excluded, and not from their religious opinions.-' — No ; but there is less regard ciBteris paribus under equal circumstances paid to the Catholics than to Protestants, upon those occasions. Do you conceive that there was no Protestant of property that had equal reason to complain of not having been sum- moned ? — No, I believe not; I did not hear any complaint ; all the respectable Protestants were summoned. Do not you think it more likely that you should have heard the Roman Catholic complain, than the Protestant complain ? — Yes, it is more likely ; but M^iether that was the effect of religious feeling or not, the impression upon the Catholic mind is, that it is the effect of religious feeling originating in political distinctions, whether it is intended or otherwise, it has the same effect. If the due proportion of Roman Catholics were upon the grand jury, how can you account for the omission of one or two Roman Catholics being construed by the people into a wish to exclude Roman Catholics.? — The number of Catholics upon the grand jury was few indeed. What is the proportion of persons of property in the county, Roman Catholics and Protestants ? — If you abstract from the property those who have the fee in the land, you will find more acquired property among the Catholics than amongst the Protestants. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 63 Is that landed property, or chattel property ? — Partly landed and partly chattel ; I speak of that particular part of the country where I reside. You have stated, that a feeling of degradation on the part of the Catholics, and of insolence on the part of the Protestants, is very much diminished v.- here the number of Roman Catholics greatly preponderate? — Yes ; the insolence on the part of the Protestant is lessened. Does the number of Catholics preponderate in your neigh- bourhood ? — They are in the proportion of one to fifteen. Then how do you account for the operation of this feeling of degradation on the one side, and insolence on the other, since, according to your view, the number of Roman Catholics does preponderate ? — The insolence is not manifested by the one party, because it would lead to personal exasperation, which would perhaps end unfavourably ; but though this feeling does not manifest itself on every occasion, yet it is knov/n to exist. Then the Protestants in your neighbourhood do not show this insolence? — No, they do not, as far as I know ; I have heard a Catholic peasant talk, how he was told in joke, by his Protestant neighbour, that they should all become Protestants in a short time, and that they should all be soon one way. Then the Catholics in your neighbourhood do feel that degradation to which you have alluded? — They do. Notwithstanding their preponderance in number? — I said that feeling was diminished by a preponderance of number. You have told us of the joke of the Protestant peasant — has not the Roman Catholic occasionally his jest in return? — I believe they may have their jests, but these jests are accom- panied with a little acrimony, between joke and earnest ; a perpetual bad feeling exists among them, and it is only the more genial flow of natural good feeling, that counteracts, in a greater or less degree, these divisions. And those are counteracted where the number of Roman Catholics predominates over the number of Protestants ?—- They are counteracted in some measure. You have stated, that if the measures which have been submitted to Parliament for removing those disabilities were adopted, you apprehend, that within twenty years, the feeling of animosity would be altogether extinct? — Yes. You stated, that the dissatisfaction of Roman Catholics arises, not from a positive sense of injury, but from the cir- cumstance that the higher order of the Roman Catholics do not stand upon an equal footing with the higher order of Pro- testants?— I said, that in their relative situations the Catholic; 64 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. peasant did not feel himself upon an equality with the Pro- testant peasant ; that in their several gradations they do not fee! themselves upon the same level. You stated the reason to be, that if they entered into the professions they could not attain the same eminence as the Protestants ? — Yes ; these are some of the reasons. So long as there was any obstacle to their attaining the same eminence as the Protestants, do you think the dissatis- faction would continue? — As long as those situations are not attainable, to which the generality of the .people, whether Protestants or Catholics, might aspire, there would be some degree of it ; but in proportion as you diminish the number of restrictions in the penal code, you diminish the sense of injury. ••. You stated, as an instance, that a young Roman Catholic going to the bar, could not hope to attain the highest situa- tion? — I wish to call the attention of the Committee to what appears to me to be the contrast between the feeling of the Catholic peasant and the Protestant peasant, Avho have sons on their outset in life ; the Protestant feels that his son may rise to the highest degree that his abilities may enable him to do ; under the existing laws, there is no im.pedimeni to his pro- motion, no limit where he must stop short ; whilst the Catholic feels he may go to a certain length, and must stop there. So long as there is any limit, you conceive the dissatisfac- tion will continue ? — I conceive there must be dissatisfaction, because the parent has an interest in the well-being of his offspring, and he feels for generations to come as much he does for the present generation. Do you think the people sympathize more with the Roman Catholic gentry, or with the Roman Catholic priests.? — I think they sympathize more with the priests. Do you not apprehend then, that any thing that puts the Roman Catholic priesthood in a situation of degradation as compared with another priesthood, would produce the same feeling of dissatisfaction in the peasantry that you attribute to the comparative difference in the situation of the gentry .? — No ; the Roman Catholic gentry, and even the peasantry, are upon principle hostile to the mixing of temporal wealth with the condition of their clergy. They think their clergy will be more upriglii and zealous when they are moderately supplied with the means of support, than when they are surrounded with riches and honours. They would not like to see their priests too rich ; the people would say, they would become like other priests. Their respect for the priest is in proportion to his poverty ? REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 05 —In proportion to his conduct ; but they think his conduct will be improved by removing from him the ordinary tempta- tions that produce misconduct and corruption in the human mind, which consist in the acquisition of inordinate M^ealth. You believe the Roman Catholic peasantry reason in that way ? — I know they do ; they are jealous when they see their priests rich. How do you account then for their remembering acutely the degraded state in which their priests were in former times ? — Because then their priests were persecuted ; they were hunted from bog to bog, and from hedge to hedge. They were obliged to celebrate the offices of religion in bogs and mountains. You say they are very anxious to read the newspapers in that neighbourhood ? — They are. What are the newspapers principally circulated in your parish ? — ^The Southern Reporter and the Cork Chronicle, when they can come at them ; but they cannot often come at them. You have mentioned that the Roman Catholic peasant feels, that if he had a son whose talent led him to one of the learned professions, to the bar for instance, that he feels disap- pointed at his being liable to be stopped at a certain point ; do you mean to say by that, that if any certain point were reserved, they would not have a feeling of resentment about it. Suppose withholding the great seal, the chancellorship was thought necessary ? — That, I conceive, to be an extreme case. I do not think, that if they got every thing else, that would be reasonably required ; I do not conceive that they would be discontented at being excluded from the great seal, if it were deemed necessary to withhold it. In fact they do not reason so acutely upon those points; and if the number of cases in which they are degraded, as compared with their Protestant fellow subjects, were diminished, their dissatisfac- tion would be likewise diminished. Supposing the legislature of the country were disposed to comply with the Catholic claims, but that a certain number of the great offices of the state were reserved ; do you think that would excite dissatisfaction ? — I am convinced it would not. You stated, that the impression upon your mind was, that the law was not equally administered to Catholic and Pro- testant ? — I did not say that was the impression upon my mind in all cases ; I said that was the impression upon the minds of the people. You said that you could not recollect particular instances, F 66 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. but there were instances ? — There certainly were instances where I had reason to think so, tliough I am not sufficiently acquainted with the facts ; perhaps I have been myself de- uded by the prejudice and distrust excited by the law. In fact, do you conceive the case to be so ? — I do, in many instances. Then the impression upon your mind is, that the law is not equally administered to Protestant and Catholic ? — It is indeed. By the magistrates in the country ? — I do not mean to say that there are not a great proportion of the magistrates that do act fairly : but I mean to say, that prejudices do exist 'pon the minds of the magistrates, and misconceptions upon tLr" minds of the people ; they may both be excited by the distinctions created by the laws. Do you mean to apply that to the immediate neighbourhood where you now reside, or generally to the county 'i — I apply it generally to the county. I would wish to say a word or two in explanation of a question put on a former day, regarding the state of Castletownroche; I do not recollect distinctly the words of the question that was put. I was asked whether the same causes of disturbance regarding the administration of justice existed in Castletownroche. I said, that I did not, in Castletownroche, recollect any cause of complaint. I re- peat the same answer still, as far as regards that part under my immediate cognizance ; but I have heard of complaints existing in that part of the county, of magistrates being there who were unfit for their office ; in the neighbourhood of Glanworth and Doneraile, and extending north-west towards Newmarket. Among those magistrates who have not administered jus- tice as they ought to have done, were there any Catholics ? — In my own part of the county they were Catholics ; but the magistrates I have in my eye in that part of the county were not Catholics. Do the peasantry generally hold the Roman Catholic gen- tlemen in more estimation than the Protestant gentlemen ? — I do not think that they do ; they have naturally more confi- dence in the Catholic than in the Protestant ; but they often find as they think, that the Catholics are too anxious to cul- tivate the favour of the Protestant gentlemen, and to retain their good will, will often join the ascendency party against themselves. Has it come to your knowledge that the farmers prefer holding their farms from Catholics to holding from Protes- tants ? — ^They make no distinctions in that point, provided REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 67 they are well treated ; but they have equal cause to complain both of the one and the other ; and they have equal causes of satisfaction with respect to them both, that is, they find ^ood Catholic landlords and bad Catholic landlords, and good Pro- testant landlords and bad Protestant landlords. You are very well acquainted with the description of per- sons who form usually the county of Cork grand juries ; do not you conceive that a fair proportion of Catholic gentlemen are usually invited upon the county grand jury ? — The county of Cork is very large, and my knowledge of it is rather limited ; I have known of two or three Roman Catholics being occa- sionally summoned upon the grand jury ; and I have known instances where they were altogether excluded. I conceive that many Roman Catholics possessing a greater property than some of the Protestants summoned on the grand jury were excluded. The greatest, number of Catholics summoned at any one time never has, I believe, exceeded two or three. How many Roman Catholic gentlemen of sufficient property to serve on grand juries do you conceive there are in the county of Cork ? — I am not prepared to answer that question ; but it is the general impression upon my mind that there are a good many. When those gentlemen were summoned upon the grand jury, were there not a considerable number of Protestants of considerable property not summoned to attend the grand jury ? — I believe there were a great number of Protes- tants possessing more property than the two Catholics, who were not summoned, and more than it would be neces- sary to summon ; but then I say there were many of less pro- perty than the Catholics upon the grand jury, and Protestants also of greater property excluded. Have you ever heard of the high sheriff being obliged to call in gentlemen to serve on grand juries, two or three per- haps every morning, in consequence of disappointments from gentlemen who were put on it ? — I am not at all conversant with the subject ; I am so far removed from those who ma- nage these things. Have you not heard in the county of Cork, the practice is to invite gentlemen to attend the grand jury ; and that they frequently decline it ? — I may have heard it. May it not have been the case with regard to Roman Catho- lic gentlemen ? — I know there were several Catholics of much more property than some Protestants upon the jury excluded from it. Can you mention the names of the Catholic gentlemen who are qualified to sit upon grand juries in your opinion ? — I 68 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. really would not undertake to say ; 1 never turned my atten- tion "to that point ; there is a Mr. Roche of Ahaddir, who has got a good property ; I do not know whether he is on the grand jury. That is a very lately acquired property ? — ^There are very few Roman Catholics in the county of Cork that have had an hereditary patrimonial property ; with the exception of two or three, there is Mr. Rochfort, he lives near Kinsale at Gar- ristown, two brothers, Coppingers, Mr. Barry of Lamelara, Mr. Deecy of Clonakilty, and Mr. Goold. There have been Protestants appointed upon the grand jury that have not, as I have heard, three thousand a year, nor one thousand a year, nor five hundred a year. With respect to Mr. Rochfort, in the first place, does not he frequently serve upon grand juries ? — I have seen his name upon grand juries. Mr. Coppinger, of Barryscourt, frequently attends ^ — I have seen his name. Mr. Barry, of Lamelara, have you seen his name upon grand juries ? — ^Yes, I have. Mr. Roche, of Ahaddir, he is a person of very lately ac- quired property ; a man who had been very low in life ? — I do not know what his situation in life formerly was. Did you ever hear the fact, that he had been a shoemaker ? —I did. When did he acquire his property? — During the war. Are you acquainted that it is more a funded than a landed property? — I believe he has got a landed estate. Very small, compared to his funded property ? — Yes. Mr. Deecey is a person of lately acquired property ? — Yes; he is a man of excellent education, and enjoys an estate, pur- chased by his father, I think, of two thousand a year. Has he never been summoned to attend grand juries ?— Never. Does Mr. Deecy rank, in fact, with the gentlemen of the county who usually attend grand juries? — I do not know. He would be considered a gentleman, and no one can deny he is a gentleman, both in education, in manners, and in every other reasonable qualification ; he is received in society as a gentleman. Will you be so good as to name those Roman Catholic gen- tleman of the county of Cork, whom, like Mr. Deecy, you conceive to be qualified in point of character, and in point of property, to sit on the grand jury, who are excluded from the grand jury ? — I am not prepared to name any others, be- cause I really am not acquainted with them. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 69 Then why are you under the impression, that the Roman Catholic property in the county of Cork is not fairly repre- sented on the grand jury ? — I did not state that I was under any such impression ; the question was put to me, and it did. not seem to me to arise from any thing I had stated before. Then you have no reason to believe, that in the selection of the grand jury in the county of Cork, the Roman Catholic property is not fairly represented on the grand jury in that county ? — There is more property diffused amongst the Roman Catholics than we are aware of, and than is represented there. The question does not refer to the merchants of the city of Cork, or the property acquired in trade; the question refers to that property that is generally represented upon the grand jury, landed property ? — There is more property diffused among the Catholics than is represented there ; because, if you have the Catholics represented in proportion to the num- bers, you will find the number of Roman Catholics having moderate property much greater than is supposed to be. There are Protestants upon the grand jury that have consi- derably less property than Catholics who are excluded ; and, as Catholics ought to be represented in proportion to their number and property, I would say they are not adequately represented there. According to the principles upon which grand juries are selected in the county of Cork, and the other counties in Ire- land, is not a fair selection of Roman Catholics made ? — The whole number of Roman Catholics upon the grand jury is only as three to twenty-three ; I will not admit that the Ca- tholic property is to the Protestant property in the county of Cork, only as three to twenty-three. You have been asked, as to the number of Roman Catholic gentry resident in the county, whom you conceive to be com- petent to act as grand jurors, how many should you think ? — I could name a great number of gentlemen of moderate pro- perties, I have only named four or five ; if I got an hour to consider I could collect a great many ; but I never have turned my mind to these points ; I am not prepared, upon the emer- gency of the moment to state a great many. When you say you will not admit the property of the Ca- tholics to be as three to twenty-three, do you not admit that the proportion of Protestant gentlemen, qualified to sit on grand juries, exceeds twenty-three to three ? — I can neither admit nor deny that. Did you ever observe that on the list of the county of Cork grand jury, the eldest sons of gentlemen, who perhaps are too 70 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. old to attend themselves, and the brothers of gentlemen who cannot conveniently attend themselves, are frequently sent afe representatives of the head of the family and the property ?— *• Yes ; and the agents too sometimes ; there is a Roman Ca- tholic gentleman, whom I may name, the agent of a great property, Mr. Leahy, he wiis never summoned so far as I heard. He served in the city grand jury ? — Yes ; but I never heard of his serving upon the county grand jury. Lord Cork's property lies in the city ? — And a great deal in the county. Mr. Leahy is the agent of Lord Cork ? — He is. Are you not aware that in the county of Cork, and other counties adjoining, it is the practice not to allow agents to represent the proprietors of soil upon grand juries .''^— I thought from what Lord Ennismore said, that it was done. In a former part of your examination, you stated cases that happened at Bantry and Skibbereen, in which Protes- tants of very small property had been put upon grand juries, when Catholics of much larger property had not been put upon grand juries, what grand juries were those you alluded to, and were they sessional or assize ? — Quarter sessions. Do you consider yourself competent, from your knowledge of the general state of the county of Cork, to give satisfactory information to the Committee, Avith respect to the returns of the grand juries ? — No ; I do not consider myself competent to speak on that at present. You stated in a former part of your examination, that you were of opinion that if the penal code was repealed, all remem- brances of it would be obliterated in the course of ten or twenty years, is it not your opinion that the mere repeal of that code would remove at once the cause of the evils that now exist in Ireland, in respect to Catholic disabilities ? — I know it would remove at once the cause. Then you do not mean to say, that it would take so long a period of time before a considerable effect would take place in improving the state of the country? — No; I should think the operation would commence immediately ; it may be slow. Will you explain in what way you think it would come into operation, and why so long a time would be necessary to give it full effect ? — In the first place, the Roman Catholics would feel that they were raised from the humble state in which they were, and would have more confidence in the laws ; they would feel that they were placed upon a level with their Pro- testant fellow-subjects ; they would feel that they had no longer a just cause of complaint of the system. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 71 Do you conceive that the Protestants would not imme- diately abstain from that line of conduct, which at present gives offence to Catholics ? — I should hope they would ; they could have no motive for continuing it. Would not it take some time altogether to obliterate that feeling ? — It might take some time undoubtedly ; the Pro- testant belonging to a certain party which was very obnoxious in the country, might feel some exasperation for a long time after the penal code ceased. When you speak of the effect of the penal code, in debasing the mind of the lower orders, do you mean to say, that it pro- duces a want of self-respect ? — I do. Does it diminish that feeling which is natural to every one, to better his condition ? — Certainly it does. In your reading upon subjects of political economy, have you not found it stated that that feeling is the great principle of all improvement of the lower classes of people ? — Undoubt- edly, they would not feel themselves so debased and degraded as they are at present, if the penal lav/ was repealed. Is not the want of that feeling necessarily attended with a great obstruction in the way of the improvement of the lov/er orders, for want of a general disposition amongst them to acquire comforts and to improve their habits of life, with regard to food and all the comforts and conveniencies of life? — There is a great moral debasement and degra- dation arising from it, which renders them insincere, crafty, cringing, flattering, and disposing them to make professions that they do not feel ; and I think they are more or less careless about the improvement of their condition. Then the peasantry living under such circumstances, if the means of bettering their condition w^as placed before them, would they so readily make use of them, or so certainly adopt them, as if the political institutions of the country placed them upon a better footing ? — If the question means whether they would not be disposed to eat better food, and wear better clothes than at present, I should say they would ; but, as to the moral means of improving their condition, I do not think they would avail themselves of them. Supposing they were able to earn somewhat better wages, would they be more disposed to increase their comforts, or to expend them in gratifying their passions? — I think that at present, among the many other causes of the demoralization of the people, is the facility with which they can acquire the means of gratifying their passions, the cheapness of whiskey ; 72 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. and I do think, that whilst that cause exists, they will be dis- posed to drink too much. Considering only their acquiring the means of improving their condition, circumstanced as you describe them to be with respect to their feelings, and their debasement of mind and want of self-respect, do you not conceive that those means would not be applied to improving their comforts, but that they would be applied rather in gratifying their passions ? — I do ; they would be applied in gratifying their passions. Have you considered, generally, the effect of political insti- tutions in keeping a people in a distressed and very low state of existence, and in preventing them from making progress to place themselves in an improved condition, when the means of so doing has been afforded them ? — I think people under an improved state of political arrangement, have a greater inte- rest in their future comfort, and in the comfort of their off- spring, than they have under a degraded state. Have you ever considered and reflected upon the effect of the British laws, in placing the lower orders of the people of England in their present happy and flourishing condition? — I have often ascribed it to the consciousness that the British people enjoy, of the real liberties and equality that exists among them. Is it not matter of history, that the condition of the lower orders of the people in every country, mainly depends upon the political institutions they live under? — I think it is a sort of political maxim. That in proportion as they are protected by the laws, and enjoy civil liberty, and are respected by the upper orders, and have proper feelings of respect for themselves, that they will use the best opportunities they acquire of improving their condition, by obtaining comforts, instead of giving way to the impulse of their passions ? — I do. You have stated it to be your opinion, supposing the re- maining disabilities under which the Roman Catholics la- bour, were removed, there would be no cause of animosity between Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland ? — Yes. Was not a great change made in the condition of the Ro- man Catholics in Ireland, by the Act of 1793 ? — Yes. Have the feelings of animosity between the Protestants and Roman Catholics diminished since that period ? — They have diminished in some places, and increased in others. Do you think they have diminished in proportion to the relaxation of the laws ? — No ; in many places they have been diminished to such a degree only, as left the Catholics much REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXA.MINED. 73 more sensible of the remaining humiliation, whilst the party that enjoyed the monopoly of power, felt exasperated at les- sening this monopoly, and seemed anxious to preserve the re- mainder, by insulting and persecuting the Catholics. Then why should the removal of the remaining disabili- ties tend to lessen that exasperation of which you have last spoken? — Because on the one hand, there could be no motive or means for persecution, the remaining monopoly having ceased, and on the other hand, the natural operation of the human mind would be to forget past sufferings. You do not propose any thing more than that the Roman Catholics should be qualified to get power? — Nothing more. Might not the Protestant still have the means of retaining possession of that power? — I do not think he could, because the wisdom of government would frustrate that. You have drawn a comparison between the number of Ro- man Catholics in Cork, who are eligible to serve upon grand juries, and the number who are actually appointed to them ; do not you think the same comparison might be instituted, as to the actual appointment to offices ; supposing the Roman Catholics were declared eligible to certain offices, do not you think the same comparison would be drawn, with respect to the actual appointments to office? — It would be entirely with the government to make the appointments, and if they were not fairly administered, discontent v/ould be excited ; but I presume they would be fairly administered. Do not you think, that as much discontent would exist, if being eligible, they were not actually appointed, as now arises from their being actually ineligible? — No, 1 do not think so; because the exclusion by law is a sort of stigma affixed upon the front of every Roman Catholic ; he is excluded at present, because he is excluded by law ; but being legally eligible, he could have no just cause of complaint ; if some Catholics were not appointed, it might be referred to individual incapacity, or other reasonable grounds. The cause of complaint is not the mere loss of emolument or power of office, but the distinction which the ineligibility for office creates, between a person qualified to hold it, and a person disqualified? — Yes ; it is partly both ; but principally the unjust distinction which the law creates between Protest- ant and Catholic. Then why do you think the Roman Catholic would be per- fectly satisfied with a state of law which excluded him from the great offices of the state ; in answer to a question, you said, that "if the Roman Catholic was admitted into certain offices, he would not be dissatisfied if he were not admitted 74 REV. MfCHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. into all ;" supposing those few great political offices from which the Roman Catholic remains excluded, had actually the appointment to all the remainder, do not you think that ex- clusion would still imply some distrust in the Roman Catho- lic ? — No, 1 do not think it would ; because the Roman Ca- tholic would be reconciled to it from the great state necessity that would induce it. What is the state motive? — With regard to the empire ge- nerally ; the act would be founded upon the general interests of the empire. In what way do you think the interest of the empire would require the exclusion of Roman Catholics from certain great state offices 1 — Because the people of the empire might not be satisfied, nor might deem it compatible with the constitution, as it exists, that Roman Catholics should be admitted into these high offices of the state. If that was the general feel- ing of the people, the Catholics w^ould be satisfied to be ex- cluded from those offices. Would the Roman Catholics admit that the impression of the people of England was a just one ? — I am not prepared to say that they would admit that it was a just one, but the peo- ple of England having that impression upon their minds, the Catholics would be satisfied. Supposing that the people of England had a general im- pression that it was for the general interest of the country, that they should continue to labour under their present dis- abilities, would the Roman Catholics still remain satisfied ? — No, for this reason ; that in their minds those disabilities are so palpably and obviously contrary to the first principles of justice and policy, that they would not believe that the people of England could think it necessary, for the general interests, to continue them, they would not be satisfied. Why should not the Roman Catholic contend for admission to all offices, however high the trust? — Because, under the present constitution of the empire, the attainment of that does not appear possible ; such a change might produce a convulsion in the empire, and therefore the Roman Catholic, being under the influence of moral motives, would be satisfied with a state of things which it would be morally impossible to change. Speaking metaphysically, he may be discontented, but for all practical purposes, as a person under the influence of moral impressions, he should be content and satisfied, rather than risk a convulsion in the state, because the evil of sub- mission to that would be so very little, compared with the evil of disturbance, that he would rather submit. He would be content with eligibility to office, satisfied that REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 75 those offices, which have the appointment to all other subor- dinate ones, namely, the high offices of the state, should remain in the hands of Protestants ? — I do not say all the high offices of the state. I can point to offices of the state that I think they might be admitted to. The King is essen- tially a Protestant by the constitution of the country, and as the chancellor is supposed to be the keeper of the King's con- science, he must be equally a Protestant ; but with the ex- ception of the King and the chancellor, I do not see any other office to which they might not be admitted. What do you think of the office of the Lord Lieutenant?— I think he might be a Catholic. Administering the whole of the church property of Ireland ? — If he happened to be a Roman Catholic, he might delegate to a Protestant chancellor the administration of church pa- tronage. And the same with the chief secretary of the Lord Lieute- nant ; you would think it proper to provide, that in case the chief secretary should be a Roman Catholic, that another officer should exercise the church patronage? — Yes, on the same principle as Roman Catholic priests protest against the interference of Protestants in the appointment of Catholics to the cure of souls ; on the same principle we would disclaim any interference in the appointment of Protestants for the cure of souls. Do you think when the disabilities were removed, that the Roman Catholics, as a body, w^ould acquiesce in the present ettlement of church property ? — I am satisfied they would. In practice, have you found that there is dissatisfaction ex- cited in consequence of the Catholics not obtaining the bene- fits conferred by the Acts of 1793, with respect to admission to the offices which they are entitled to hold under that Act? ■ — Yes, considerable dissatisfaction is entertained. To what do you attribute their not being admitted to those offices in any degree whatsoever, compared with the Protest- ants, and with the number of Catholics who are capable of holding those offices ? — To the exclusive predominance of that party in Ireland, hostile to Roman Catholics. Do you believe that the reservation of those offices, to which Roman Catholics are at present not capable of being admitted, does contribute in fact to prevent a fair admission to those offices, which they are qualified to hold under the Act of 1793 ? — I do believe so. The Catholics are aware, that very considerable concessions were granted by the Act of 1793 ? — They are. That they were rendered eligible to a certain number of 76 REV. iWICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. offices by that Act? — They are ; but I think a great propor- tion of the Catholic populace are not aware of the actual extent to which the penal code has been repealed ; for in- stance, they are not generally aware of the late Act respecting their admission to offices in the army, because those things have been done by piecemeal. Is there a full confidence among the Catholics in the inten- tion with which these Acts were passed, with respect to the conferring favours upon them? — I think that confidence is very much lessened by the events that have occurred since ; they think that persons have got into power, who were hostile to them, who have endeavoured to impede the good effect of that Act of conciliation and justice as much as possible, and have defeated the benefits, with respect to Catholics, that might be derived from it. In fact, it is not the general opinion, that the intention of the legislature has been defeated? — It is. Have you any reason to doubt, that the Act which admitted the Roman Catholics into all ranks of the army and navy, has been fairly acted upon ? — I have no opinion upon that subject, either way. You have no reason to doubt it? — I have no reason to doubt it. And yet the Roman Catholics are not aware of the exist- ence of that Act ? — A great proportion of the populace are not aware of it. Although they are become eligible to hold any office in the army, yet, in point of fact, it has so little affected their situ- ation, that they are not aware of their eligibility? — It is since the peace that that Act passed ; if there was a war they would be aware of it, but there has been no opportunity for their being made aware of it. Was not that Act passed without much public discussion ? — It was ; I thought it was introduced in a clause in the Mu- tiny Bill, till I heard from a gentleman, the other day, that it was a special Act. Does the circumstance of no Catholic having been ap- pointed to the assistant-barrister's office, produce much dis- satisfaction ? — It does. Is it a matter of common observation, that very few Ca- tholics have been appointed to offices since the year 1793 ? — It is ; for instance, no Catholics have been admitted into the corporation of Dublin since that, very few Catholics have been appointed into high situations in the revenue, and no appointments have been made to the office of assistant bar- rister, the commission of bankruptcy, and other situations. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 77 What do you call high situations in the revenue ? — Such as commissioners and collectors : there was one commissioner and only one collector a Catholic, they were appointed, I heard, under the administration of the Duke of Bedford. You are of opinion, that supposing the political distinc- tions were removed, there would be no cause of animosity between Protestants and Roman Catholics remaining ? — I am. Do you believe in the miracles which have been performed ? — 'As a Roman Catholic, I am at perfect liberty to believe or disbelieve. Do you actually believe ? — I believe in some, and in others I disbelieve. You believe there has been of late a decided manifestation of God's favour to the Roman Catholic church ? — I think that, under the pressure of temporal persecution, Almighty God has supported and encouraged His church in Ireland. Do you not think that the circumstances under which those miracles were, in your opinion, performed, show a decided manifestation of God's favour towards the Roman Catholic church ? — It might be a manifestation of favour for the pur- pose of confirming the wavering in their faith ; many Catho- lics thought that they might be deserted by the Providence of Almighty God ; they do not doubt that it was a manifestation of divine favour, to confirm them in their faith. Do not you think that the result of those miracles must be a decided impression on the part of the educated and unedu- cated of the Roman Catholic community, that God's favour was manifested in behalf of the Roman Catholic church ? — To such of the Roman Catholics as believe it has that effect, to such as do not believe, and there are a great many of them, both amongst the ecclesiastics and the laity, it has no effect. Do the lower orders, who have heard of them, generally be- lieve in them ? — The lower orders generally believe ; but they have never been proposed as matter of faith, nor have they been proposed in that authentic way, which would render it imperative upon Roman Catholics to believe. Still, practically, there is a general belief in them amongst all classes who have heard of them ? — I cannot say amongst all classes ; for instance, in my part of the county, at least a hundred and twenty miles from the place where they were ope- rated, there is not a general belief, nor even a knov.ledge of the facts. I heard, tliat in Leinster it is very general, and that confidence in God's Providence is in proportion. I read the vouchers published by Doctor Doyle and others, and I must own I thought I saw a strong testimony in those vouch- ers ; I could not account how thev occurred. 7CS REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Are you aware of the fact, that any Roman Catholic bishops were appointed to examine the evidence, and to state their opinions upon the evidence? — I am aware of the fact, that Doctor Doyle did examine, and that Doctor Murray did exa- mine ; but I know they did it of themselves, without any ap- pointment. Did not the two bishops, who undertook to examine into, the credibility of those miracles, express publicly their opinion that such miracles were actually performed ? — They did. Did you ever hear of any other bishops who dissented from them, as to the degree of credibility which was to be attached to them ? — I have not heard of other bishops, but I should not be surprised if there were others. Have you heard that any bishop has publicly expressed a dissent from those two Roman Catholic bishops? — It would not be expedient for a bishop to express his dissent, as to facts publicly affirmed, if he had not examined into them ; neither is he called upon to approve of alleged facts that he has not had an opportunity of examining and ascertaining. If the only men who examined the facts stated a decided opinion that the miracles were performed, and no other bishops dissented from that opinion, nor instituted any in- quiry for the purpose of enabling them to form an opinion for themselves, do not you think that the published opinion of the two bishops who did examine, must tend to create an uni- versal impression on behalf of those who read their opinion, that the miracles were actually performed ? — Yes ; it carried motives of probability and credibility with it, but it carried no motives that rendered it imperative upon the Catholics to believe. But the tendency must be to produce a general belief; the character of the parties and their situation would induce a general confidence in their belief ? — Yes, it would. Then the Committee understand you to say, the Roman Ca- tholic population are of opinion that the efficiency of the priesthood is best secured by the circumstance of their not being in possession of large emoluments ? — Certainly. If that is their opinion with respect to their ov/n priest- hood, is it also with respect to the priesthood of other reli- gious persuasions ? — They have no interest in the priesthood of other religious persuasions. Have they no interest with regard to the payment of tithes ? 'T— They would pay their tithes as a matter enjoined by law ; but they have no interest in the purity of character and con- duct of the priesthood of other denominations. The question does not refer to purity of character, but to REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 79 temporal emoluments, have not they a direct interest in less- ening the emoluments of another church ?— The Roman Ca- tholics have no interest in lessening the emoluments of the established church more than they have in lessening the quan- tum of rent vv^hich they pay to their landlord. They are equally satisfied to pay the tithe to the Protestant clergyman as they are to pay rent to the landlord ? — No, I do not think they are. Why are they not ? — In the first place, the tithe is imposed as a tax, the rent is a matter of convention between the land- lord and the tenant ; the rent is so much money paid for a quantity of land, like paying for the use of a machine, and paid by agreement ; and the tithe is paid not for the rent of the land, it is paid not only out of the machine, but the capi- tal and labour vested in it. There is nothing in the circumstance of its being paid to the minister of another church that makes it objectionable to the Roman Catholic peasantry ? — ^They would not pay it to their own church. They do not object to the payment of tithes as a due to the Protestant clergyman ?— Not as a due to the Protestant cler- gyman ; but they would wish to get rid of it, in common with many Protestants. Just in the same way that they would wish to get rid of their rent? — In the same way that many Protestants would wish to get rid of the tithes ; in the first place, they look upon the tithes as an impost placed upon the public, for the upholding of a corporate establishment ; they look upon them as the public property of the state ; and many Catholics, in conjunction with many Protestants, think, that the state might appropriate a great part of that property to more useful pur- poses, and in a more effectual manner, than at present ; but, as Catholics, they have no feeling with respect to the con- version of tithe into a means of support for their own priest- hood ; neither do they object to it as Catholics, but as think- ing men. You are speaking of the feelings of the peasantry ? — No ; of the gentry, and intelligent Catholics and Protestants. Will you state what the feeling of the peasantry is with respect to the payment of tithe ? — They look upon it as a hardship, as it takes a tenth part, and sometimes more, of the value of the produce of the land ; and on account of its variableness and uncertainty, and their inability to pay it. They do not object to it as a payment made to the minister of another church ? — They do not object to it as a payment 80 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. made to the minister of another church, as contrasting that minister with the minister of their own church. They would rather prefer the payment of dues to the minister of their own church, in order to secure his compara- tive poverty, than that he should be paid out of the tithes?-— No, I do not say that ; if it were the will of the legislature that they should be relieved from what they pay at present to the ministers of their own church, by paying part of the tithes to them, I believe they would have no objection ; but if they were allowed to get rid of tithe altogether, and left at liberty to give or withhold a part of it from the ministers of their own church, they would withhold it. In order to put it into their own pockets ? — ^To get rid of the burden of it. Do not you think that the universal impression among the population is this, that if tithe is to be continued, it is more just that it should be paid to Roman Catholics than to Protestants ? — I do not think so. In point of fact, if they are to pay it, they have not the least objection to pay it to the Protestant clergy ? — It is altogether matter of indifference to them, if they are obliged to pay it, to whom they pay it ; they certainly would wish to be relieved of part of the burden of paying their own priests. At the same time I do think, that if the choice was given them, and that they were told, you must pay tithe to somebody, you must choose between the Catholic and the Protestant clergy, they would choose their own priests ; but if they were told, you shall get rid of tithes, and you have in your power to give or withhold it to your own priests, they would withhold it. A large body of Roman Catholics have lately expressed an opinion, in a petition to the House of Commons, that in order to ensure permanent peace in Ireland, first of all, that the political disabilities must be removed ; but also that the pre- sent church establishment of Ireland must be reformed, and its temporalities reduced, and that the corporations must be disfranchised ; that is a petition which has lately proceeded, not from the Roman Catholic Association, but encouraged by them ; it comes at their instigation ; do you concur in that petition or not? — I deem it very inexpedient and improper in the Catholic Association to mix up extraneous matter with what ought to be the single object of their labours, the repeal of the penal code. Why improper? — Because as Catholics, they ought not to come forward ; they may come forward in conjunction with Protestants, but they ought not to mix up that question with REV. MICHAEL COLLIX?? EXAMINED. 81 theii' character as a Catholic association ; I tliought it was very improper. Do not you think it was perfectly open to them, and per- fectly fair, if they thought, that in order to insure the per- manent peace of Ireland, something more was necessary than to remove the political disabilities; was not it perfectly fair and candid in them to state it? — To state it as individuals in connexion with other religious denominations would be per- fectly fair, but to state it as coming from a Catholic body, and as speaking the opinions of the Catholics as such, I thought unfair, and not justifiable. Do you agree with them as to the main fact ; do you think, that in order to insure the permanent peace of Ireland, that those other measures are necessary ; namely, the reduction of the temporalities of the present church establishment, and the disfranchisement of the corporations ; or do you think they are not ? — •! should not be inclined to think so ; but I have not made up my mind upon that point. Then how do you reconcile that last opinion with the former one, that if political disabilities were removed, there would cease to exist any cause of animosity ? — Because then it would not be between Catholic and Protestant, but between the people and the clergy. Would not the question of reduction of the temporalities of the church, be a question between Protestants and Roman Catholics? — No ; it would be as much a question between the Protestant clergy and the Protestant laity, between Protestant and Protestant, as between Catholic and Protestant ; in fact, the word Catholic or Protestant w^ould not intervene at all. Y^ou are then of opinion, as far as you can form a judgment upon it, that although, if the political distinctions were re- moved, th3re would be no cause of animosity between Pro- testants and Catholics, yet, that in order to secure the per- manent tranquillity of Ireland, some more permanent reform must be made.? — I would incline to think, that it would con- duce to the amelioration of the country, but I do not think it would be necessary to the tranquillization of the country ; I would rather wish that those reductions were made, because I think the country would be the better for it ; but I say that as a person speaking, not as a Roman Catholic, but from my own reflections, and from reading the Edinburgh Review, and other Essays on Political Economy. Do you think that that petition which has been referred to, speaks the opinion of Roman Catholics generally ? — -There are many that coincide with it, and many that do not. G 82 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Will those that do not coincide with it express their dissent in any way? — No ; I think there are many Catholics that dis- approve of the conduct of the Association in bringing forward that question, as connected with the Catholic cause, but who do not feel themselves called on to express their dissent. This petition is not the petition of the Association ; it is a petition of the undersigned Catholics ; it does not profess to be the petition of the Association ? — As connected with Catholic disabilities, or arising from Catholic feeling, I do not approve of the petition at all ; it does not speak the sense of the people. Do you think it likely that those whose sense it does not speak will state explicitly how far they agree or disagree with it; if it is improper and unjust, according to your opinion, that the petition should be presented, do not you think it would be becoming in others, who entirely dissent from it, if they were to disavow it ? — I should think the expression of such a dissent would be misconstrued into a disavowal of the sentiments entertained not as Catholics, but as Irishmen generally, or as inhabitants of the country. As Irishmen generally, they entertain those opinions, but as Roman Catholics, they do not think it becoming in them, when they are petitioning for a relief from disabilities, to state those opinions to the legislature? — I do not think they are at all connected with their grievances as Catholics ; many of them may join with Protestants in entertaining that opinion, but 1 do not conceive they are more called upon to disavow those sentiments than Protestants are. As to the dissolution of the Union, what do you think is the general impression with respect to that, which has been stated by some Roman Catholics to be essential to the restoration of tranquillity? — As to the dissolution of the Union, I thought it one of the most mischievous, and false I may say, political propositions that could be propounded. For my part, I do think that the well being of Ireland is intimately and inse- parably connected with England ; and I believe that it is the general feeling throughout Ireland, that the project of dis- solution is both visionary and mischievous. You entirely dissent from that proposition? — I do most cordially. I do not see what good can arise from the separa* ration of the countries ; on the contrary, I can fancy the greatest evil to our unfortunate country from such an event. The question does not refer to the actual separation of the countries, but the restoration of such a state of things as existed previously to the Union ? — I do not think that the REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 83 condition of Ireland would be better, in case of such a resto- ration. I felt, I must own, very much grieved, when I saw sentiments to that effect expressed by some of the leaders of the cause. You thought it would be mischievous to the cause of the Roman Catholics ? — No ; I thought that the repeal of the Union would be attended with great mischief to the country. Do you think that is the feeling of the Roman Catholics ge- nerally ? — I do. Then why do they not disavow what is expressed by the Association, which affects to speak in their name ? — I was not aware that the Association had expressed those sentiments. Have not a great many Protestants expressed opinions of the expediency of reforming the church, and reducing the temporalities of the church in Ireland ? — I have under- stood so. Have there not been a large body of members of Parliament voting for such a measure? — Certainly. May not, in your opinion, a considerable reformation take place in the administration of the Protestant church, without at all affecting the security of its establishment ? — I think so. Might not, also, the temporalities of that church be placed under a different distribution without affecting the security of the Protestant religion ? — I think they might. Is it not possible, that such a reformation, and such a dis- tribution, might essentially serve the cause of the Protestant religion ? — I think it might. In any views you take, or the Catholics generally take of those subjects, you take them as common subjects in the country, in common with the Protestants ? — Certainly. If Catholics have expressed opinions that more extensive reforms are wanting in Ireland, besides the repeal of the penal code, are there not abuses with respect to magistrates, grand juries, and other public affairs, to which that opinion, as to extensive reform, may be applied ? — ^There are. If the effect of the new tithe laws shall ultimately be to make the payment of the tithe the business of the landlords, so that the Catholic occupiers of the land may be relieved from tithe, will they concern themselves much about the benefit the Protestant clergy will derive from the new tax that will be paid in lieu of tithe? — I believe the greater part of those who occupy land, if they were relieved from the pressure of tithe, would not care who received it, if the tithe was paid by the landlord and not by the occupier. Then all soreness of feeling, and all hostility that may exist in the minds of Catholics with respect to tithes, would be G 2 84 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. done away by changing the manner of payment, making that payment either a payment by the landlords or provided by sub- stituting land in place of tithes ? — I do not see if the burden was placed upon the landlords, that it would remove all cause of complaint on the part of the occupiers with regard to tithe ; but undoubtedly if land was substituted, all cause of complaint would be removed. Are you not aware, that the Tithe Act provides, that in all new leases made in a parish, where it is brought into opera- tion, that the tithe is to be paid by the landlord ? — It makes such a provision ; but how can you prevent the landlords from throwing the tithe upon the tenant ? If the effect of the change shall be, that it shall not throw it upon the tenants, but that it shall become a tax upon land purely, and that the reservation of rent to be paid by the tenant shall be a fixed sum, having no connexion with the tithe, will he not, under those circumstances, be completely relieved ? — If the tithe is absorbed in the rent, and the rent not increased beyond the true value of land, he will be com- pletely relieved in that case. Will not the tithe so payable by the landlord, be in the nature of a tax on rent, and therefore wholly payable by the landlord, and by no means possible to be paid by the tenant ? — If the thing could be so contrived that the tithe must be paid by the landlord without falling on the tenant, the tenant can have no cause of complaint. Do you think it is possible that can be done ? — I think it very difficult. Supposing the burden of the tithe were in any shape to be thrown upon the landlord, would not then the tenant have to pay him an additional rent ? — If the tenant's lease were pre- vious to the enactment of such a law, the tithe would fall upon the landlord during the lease ; but at the expiration of the lease, I cannot see how it could be left on the landlord without being transferred to the tenant. Do not you think that if in any way landlords were to take upon themselves the payment of the church, leaving it to their tenants to reimburse them as to those tenants might seem fit, that it would go a great way towards removing the pressure that now prevails ? — It would certainly. Do not you conceive that the amount of rent which a tenant can afford to pay, depends upon the comparison of the pro- duce of his land and the expenses which he has to incur ? — As a general proposition, that is true ; but in the particular circumstances of Ireland it is not true, because the population of Ireland is so disproportioned to the means of employment ; REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 85 that is, the population having no means of employment but agriculture, there is always more competition for lands than the due value of land would justify, the rents offered are generally above the value of the land compared with what they ought to be. For a moment setting out of the question those excessive rents which arise from great competition, and taking only the general principle, a comparison of the produce on the one hand and the expenses on the other, is the criterion which would measure the amount of rent, supposing the demand for land not to be excessive ? — Yes. Then do you not imagine that the tithe which the tenant has to pay, is part of those expenses which he sets against the value of the produce in calculating the rent he can afford to offer ? — Yes ; if you can give a permanent character to the amount of the tithe. Then supposing that by any legislative enactment, it were possible to throw that tithe entirely upon the landlord, and absolutely to exonerate the tenants from the payment of such tithe, would not the tenant be able to give a higher rent for his land, than he could afford to have given for it before, be- cause his expenses would be diminished, the produce remain- ing the same ; tliere being therefore a greater surplus produce remaining after payment of his expenses, he could afford to increase his rent ? — He would have a certain profit and cer- tain surplus after paying the expenses. Therefore the competition for that land which thus would give a greater profit, would lead to a higher rent being of- fered for it ^ — It would, I think. Consequently, if the rent increased as the tithe was taken off, the tenant would appear to be in the same condition in which he was before ? — Yes, it comes to the very point which I was observing; I do not see how the tithe can practically be transferred from the tenant to the landlord. Therefore you are of opinion, that no legislative enactment could practically relieve the tenant from the payment either of tithe, or of an amount of rent equal to .the tithe ? — Except in this one view ; the great grievance of tithe at present is, the precariousness of its amount, and the mode in which it is generally exacted ; if the tithe could be made analogous to rent, fixed, and payable by the landlord, the landlord would be responsible for it, and the tenant would be considerably bene- fitted ; it may unfortunately turn out, that the rent would be raised, but I do not think the rent would be raised to the full extent of the tithe. Would not the same extreme competition, which now leads 86 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. a tenant to offer for any given piece of land more than its real value, equally stimulate him to offer an increase of rent equal to the amount of tithe taken off? — I consider that the landlords in general would see that it was not their interest to accept what the tenants might offer, inasmuch as they would see that the tenants could not pay it. Does the landlord generally exercise that discretion now ? — In many instances they do, but in general they do not, be- cause the ])rices are in such a fluctuating state. Would it not be perfectly fair for the landlord to accept an augmentation of rent, equal to the tithe that had ceased ? — I do not see why he should hot, if the amount of rent was fair before. Ought not a part of those very high rents that are offered and paid by the lower classes, f o be considered as a payment for the risk that is incurred, in letting that class of people have land, in addition to the payment for the rent of the land ? — I do not see how it can be considered in that point of view. *' Is not there a considerable risk in making that description of persons a tenant ? — Not a greater risk than if any persons had a rent laid upon them, that was disproportioned to the value of the land. Do you conceive the rents imposed are settled by the land- lords, by having any arbitrary power of fixing the rent .'' — Yes ; in consequence of the number of competitors for land, the landlords can fix the rent. Why do not they fix a higher rent than they now take?— They fix more than they are likely to get ; and if they fixed a higher, they would not get it, but they w^ould frighten their tenants away altogether. Must not the rents be fixed by the prices at the markets ? — By the prices of markets, compared with the number of bidders for land. Practically, have not the rents for land risen and fallen, as the markets have risen and fallen in Ireland ? — They have, but not in the same proportion. Is not the tithe tax that is fixed by the new Act, regulated according to the rent of the land, as well as the extent of it, that is relieved from tithe ? — I am not aware. If a tax is imposed according to the rent of land, is not such a tax absolutely a tax on rent ? — Certainly. Then if it is a tax on rent, and if the rate of rent paid by the farmer for land is regulated by the price of commodities^ how can the landlord make the tenant pay that tax? — If the rent of land be fairly regulated, and always regulated by the PEt. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 87 price of commodities, and the tithe becomes a tax upon that rent, of course it must be paid by the landlord. Will you state whether you consider that the number of the Catholic clergy has increased in the same proportion with the population of their respective parishes ? — There has been an increase in the number of Catholic clergy, but I do not think the number has increased in proportion to the po- pulation. Then do you conceive that the duties cast upon each Catho- lic clergyman have considerably augmented of late years? — 1 do not believe that at any time there Avere an adequate num- ber of clergymen for the performance of the duties, and they are still less adequate in proportion nov?^ than ever, in conse- quence of the increase of population. Is not the deficiency in the number of Catholic religious instructors of the people felt as a great inconvenience, both to the clergy and to the people ? — It is. Do you consider the number of persons that attend to the religious duties diminishes or increases ? — They diminish in consequence of the inability of the priests to attend to them all. In consequence of the inadequate number of the Catholic clergy, is it not difficult, if not impossible, in many instances, to exhort the people in the way of sermon after mass ? — It is; because the clergyman may have to ride to two chapels which are four or five miles asunder; after celebrating mass in one chapel, he must post away to the next, and after having done his duty there, there may be two or three sick calls waiting for him ; he may have to baptize children, and he is ex- hausted from the labours of the morning, being the whole time without food in consequence of the discipline of the church. Do you not attribute a considerable proportion of the dimi- nution of the parishioners in attending their religious duties, to the want of sufficient means of exhortation in the way of sermon? — I do, certainly; and the want of opportunity of catechising children, and giving them moral instructions on Sundays. Is your parish co-extensive with that of the Protestant cler- gyman? — My parish embraces a district in which three or four Protestant clergymen officiate. What number of coadjutors do you employ in that dis- trict ? — One only ; I have not the means of supporting more. Can you form any estimate, as to the value of the Protes- tant livings to the incumbents ? — In my district there are nearly three or four Protestant livings ; there is first, the 00 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. parish of Creagh ; the v/hole of that parish is comprised in my district, and it was farmed, two years ago, by a tithe far- mer; lie paid, I am not sure whether it was five or six lum- dred a year, but I believe it was five hundred ; he complained at first, that he lost by the contract, and I believe he got some compensation from the clergyman ; but I have reason to believe, that he recovered the full amount of what he agreed to pay, and a considerable profit besides ; he let the tithes to the people ; took notes for the payment ; in conse- quence of the badness of the times, he complained to the clergyman that the people were unable to pay; he got then a reduction or a remission of part of what he was bound to pay; 1 believe he afterwards recovered the full amount of the notes from the people. Will you state the amount of the sum ? — I think that he received 100/. or 200/. That is but a proportion of the parish which you have ?— That is a small proportion of the parish ; then there is the parish of Abbeystrowry ; that is a vicarage, formed by lay impropriators; there are eighteen plough lands in that parish, of which twelve are in my district ; there are two or three plough lands of a parish called Aghadown in my district, be- cause they are all inclosed by natural boundaries in my dis- trict. The parish of Tullagh, with the exception of an island, called Innisherkan, is in my district. Is there another rector in that division of your parish ? — There is a Protestant rector and a Protestant curate. Will you state what the amount of their revenue is ? — I be- lieve in the parish of Abbeystrowry it is worth 500/. a year to the lay impropriator ; and then the other parish to the rector, I believe, may be worth 400/. a year. That is Aghadown ? — I have only a small proportion of Aghadown ; in the Avhole of the district over which I am, the tithes are about 1600/. a year, at the present reduced rate; but it was a great deal more than that during the war. Can you inform the Committee, what the amount of your property is, as clergyman ? — I ought to observe, that Mr. Hughes, the rector of the parish of Creagh, when a proposi- tion was made to introduce the new bill, would not take less than 800/. a year. During the war the emoluments of my parish, between my coadjutor and myself, might approach 300/. a year; two parts were the property of the parish priest, and the third part the property of the coadjutor ; since that, in consequence of the depression of the times, the receipts between the coadjutor and myself do not exceed 240/.; some years they have been less. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 89 You have stated the proportion of Protestants to Catholics, is as one to fifteen ; do you mean in that district ! — Yes. What may be the number of your parishioners ? — I think they approach ten thousand. From what sources is your income derived ? — In the first place we get from every farmer in the parish, at Christmas and Easter, two ten-pennies, making 3s. 4cZ. ; many of the farmers, in consequence of the badness of the times, have not been able to pay us ; and then we are paid something- on the occasion of marriages, from \0s. or 15s. up to 31. or guineas; christenings average about 3-?. 4c?. each, when they they are paid ; sick calls are not paid for, generally ; I am now eighteen years a clergyman, and I could undertake to say that, during that time, I have not received 4/. for attend- ance on the sick. Do you receive any thing on confessions? — At the periods, confessions at Christmas and Easter, the 3^. 4rf. are paid by the farmers, but this is not paid in consideration of confes- sion ; but we go about through the villages in the country, we attend a day in each village, where the people meet us, and that is the occasion of paying their Christmas and Easter dues ; but whether they confess or not, it is considered that they are bound to pay, and many come to confession who pay nothing. What is the usual and average number of people married in your parish ? — In my parish, I have had some years sixty marriages : the year before last, they were about thirty-six ; and at Shrovetide this year, I had forty marriages ; then I expect there may be about ten or fifteen more in the course of the year. What is the usual rate you receive on marriages? — That depends on the circumstances of the parties ; some are so poor, that they pay nothing. Is there no fixed or stipulated rate of payment.' — It depends upon their circumstances ; that is, from poor farmers we ex- pect a pound or a guinea: from persons a little richer again, a guinea and a half or 40^., and from the very richest of them, 3/. and three guineas. What is the highest amount you ever received upon a v/ed- ding? — Thirty guineas. What class ? — A gentleman of large fortune, a man sup- posed to be worth 10,000/. Is it not the habit to make a collection upon a marriage ? — In the diocese of Cloyne it is, but in the diocese of Ross, where I reside, it is not. I have received 20/. at a marriage, in Castletownroche ; there were twentv farmers present, who paid 20/. 90 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. That practice does not prevail in your parish ?— It does not, nor ever did. When it has come to the knowledge of the priest, that an illicit intercourse has taken place between two parishioners of the lowest class, is it not the common practice to recom- mend that they should be married ? — It would be the duty of the clergyman to do so ; but it has often happened that per- sons professing themselves to be Roman Catholics, and apply- ing to me, or other clergymen, circumstances may exist that would render it our duty to refuse to marry them ; and in that case they sometimes resort to the Protestant clergy, and are married as a matter of right. The Protestant minister can- not refuse ; for instance, a young couple may, without the consent of parents, wish to get married ; I refuse to marry them without that consent ; they go to the Protestant clergy- man, and get married. Do you mean that it is the practice, under those circum- stances, to apply to the Protestant clergyman, they being- Roman Catholics? — It has been the case very often. They being Roman Catholics? — Yes ; for instance, accord- ing to the laws of our church, the children of brothers or sis- ters cannot be married: I refuse to marry them. They have only to apply to the Protestant minister, and he is bound to do so. Do they not incur your displeasure, as their pastor, to a certain degree? — They do; we cannot administer the sacra- ment till they do penance, and conform to our laws. But they invariably do return to your church ? — They always do ; it very often happens that persons wish to get married without the consent of parents or guardians, and we refuse to marry them. Is not one considerable source of emolument to the Ca- tholic clergymen that of praying for the repose of souls ? — It very often happens that pious persons will desire a clergy- man to celebrate mass for the repose of their souls, and leave a bequest, or give donations for that purpose; but it very rarely occurs in country parts, and forms scarcely an item in the property of the clergyman. I do not think it has ever been 3/. in the year to me. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 91 Lnnce, 14° die Junii, 1824. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Michael Collms again called in ; and Examined. In what state are the chapels of the Catholics, in the coun- ty of Cork ? — In general they are in a very bad state, they are too small in general for the congregations that resort to them ; efforts were lately made in some places to build new chapels, upon a scale more suited to the number that required them, but the poverty of the people, and the pressure of other de- mands for the established church, has rendered the progress of those buildings slow indeed, and in some instances they have failed altogether, for a time. I have myself an old chapel, in the town of Skibbereen, in such a state, that I daily fear some accident may occur whenever the people are assembled in it, in consequence of the decayed state of the roof and the ■wall ; it is altogether too small for the congregation, so much so, that more than one half of the congregation are obliged to kneel in the yard, or on the highway, under the open air, and they cannot hear the instructions of the priest ; I made an attempt to build a chapel upon a larger scale, and in a more eligible situation ; I had no means but a half-penny collection on Sunday, at the chapel, from the poor as they went in ; a great number of the people going there have not often the means of paying a half-penny, they are consequently excluded, and lose the benefit of religious worship and religious instruc- tions ; however, after a continuance of exertion since the year 1818, we have raised 4 or 50%L with which we commenced a chapel last year, and we have succeeded only in raising a part of the walls ; we are going on very slowly, and do not expect to have the walls finished this year, for want of means ; I have some idea of applying in town here for aid. What number of persons did the old chapel accommodate? — • I do not think it would accommodate more than 1000 persons. How many attend the service? — We have two masses in the chapel, and at each mass about 2000 persons, or more, attend. So that more than half of them are obliged to be in the open air? — More than half, and a great many stay away ra- ther than be in the open air ; the old, and the infirm, and the delicate. Do many of them stay in bad weather ? — In bad weather they must stay away. 92 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Do many of them remain in bad weather, often ? — Of those that come, a great many must stay outside, because if any number exceeding 1000 comes there, they must remain out- side. Is it the practice of many to remain outside during severe weather ? — It is ; you may see them in severe weather, and under the pelting of storms, with their hats ofF, kneeling in the mud. Is the description you have given of your own chapel one that may be applied to other chapels in the county I — I think it may, generally ; but in our district we have a greater num- ber of poor than in many other places ; as an illustration of that, I would observe, that the whole number in my district does not exceed 10,000 souls, and in part of that district, that is the part adjoining the town of Skibbereen, there were, in the summer of 1822, more than 6000 paupers on the charity list; and in the other part there were nearly 3000 paupers subsisting upon the charity received from England in that year. Were those people wholly destitute of employment, and of the means of providing money for the purchase of food ? — They consisted partly of poor farmers and partly of poor la- bourers ; the poor farmers, in consequence of the pressure of rents, were, early in the year, obliged to send to market their wheat and oats, and other grain ; the amount of these did not pay their rents, the crop of potatoes had fallen short, and they had no means of subsistence in the latter part of the summer, they were obliged to resort to public charity; the poor labourers had no employment whatsoever, and they were obliged to subsist upon public charity. I have a note of the number of families and individuals in the town and county, taken from the poor list at the last return, in 1822 ; in town there were 790 families, consisting of 2889 individuals, in the county 715 families, consisting of 2234 individuals, the whole making 1505 families, containing 6123 individuals, and that only in part of a district under my care ; the popu- lation in the whole district does not exceed 10,000. In other times of scarcity, Avhen relief has not been sent from England, how have those people been supported? — The farmers generally raise as much potatoes as support their fa- milies ; in summer they have a little milk (sometimes some of them have no milk) ; they have a little milk or fish ; but through the winter, they must, in general, eat those potatoes without any accompanying food. Merely with water and salt ? — With water and salt. Have they no fish upon that coast ? — Wherever an opportu- REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 93 nity of fishing exists, the fish taken enters into the calculation of the rent, and the rent is raised in proportion to the oppor- tunity of fishing, so that they cannot keep the fish for the subsikence of their families; they are obliged to sell it as part of the means of making up the rent. In the year 1817 was there a great want of food in the dis- trict ? — There was. How were the people provided with the means of subsist- ence? — There was as great, or a greater famine in the year 1817 than in the year 1822, and many perished in that year. There was a local subscription in my district for their relief, which enabled the managers to buy in potatoes rather early in the season, and to sell them out at a reduced price ; but there was more employment in 1817 than in 1822, and the reason is this, in 1817 there was a higher price for grain than the year 1822, and the farmers who were enabled to sell their grain got a better return, and were enabled to give employ- ment to more of the poor. Was that local subscription sufficient to assist all the peo- ple ? — It was suflnicient to save many from perishing that would have perished ; others did die of the diseases contracted from hunger. Were there many died ? — A good many fevers commenced that year, and the eflTects of famine continued during the great part of the ensuing years ; the ensuing winter and summer of the years 1817 and 1818. For how many months did that distress for food in 1817 continue ? — It continued from the month of May until the be- ginning of September. Were the great body of poor entirely dependent upon cha- rity during that period ? — They were. Were there any other means of affording charity than that of subscription ? — There was some aid from the government. The question refers to private, individual charity ; to what extent was that carried ? — A benevolent individual in the town of Skibbereen, who had no landed property there, gave 100/. ; and another benevolent individual, who had no landed pro- perty, gave 70/.; but the landed gentry, with the exception of one proprietor, gave very little. Did the farmers give potatoes and food to the people ?-— The farmers, who had food to spare, exercised their usual charity, that is, they gave to the roaming beggars some little pittance; the whole country was swarming with persons wan- dering through it, women, and shoals of children following them; they went from farm-house to farm-house, and they might get at each house a potatoe or two ; in many places 94 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. they were refused, because such was the scarcity and the temp- tation arising- from the high prices, that the farmers were more stingy than they used to be in former periods. Is it the custom for persons that have meal and potatoes, to sell it to the poor people upon credit ? — Yes, it is. Making the time of payment correspond with the probable return of better times? — They sell it upon credit, at usurious prices. I have known gentlemen who speculated in that way, persons classing as such, men of 500/. or 600/. a-year, de- rived from profit rents, being also partly farmers, and partly in the corn trade ; in the year 1822, when the current price of wheat was only 22^. a bag, those persons sold their wheat on credit, at 30^. and a guinea and a half a bag, payable at the ensuing Michaelmas ; and if payment was not made at Michaelmas, the price was to be raised from 30^. to a guinea and a half; and so on, according to the delay of payment. Did they sell potatoes on the same principle? — Yes. Was it to the poor people that they sold this food? — They sold it to such of the poor, as could give security for the payment. Did the poor people pay them when they were able ? — Yes ; I have not heard of any cases where payments were not made in that or the subsequent year ; probably they were not so punctual as they would have been, had they employment. Was not this plan of selling upon credit, a matter of accom- modation to the poor ? — It was a very limited and local ac- commodation, because the higher prices that prevailed in Dublin and in other parts, than were given in and about Skib- bereen, induced the speculators in the corn and potatoe trade, to buy up all the grain and potatoes, for the purpose of ex- portation ; and it likewise induced the landlords to compel their tenants to send into their store-houses the whole of the grain, and part of the potatoes which the families of the te- nants would want, with a view of having them sold in the Dub- lin market. I know the tenantry upon an estate in the neigh- bourhood of Baltimore, who had they been allowed to retain the potatoes and grain grown by them, would have suffered nothing from the scarcity ; but in consequence of the high prices (ten pounds a ton) that were given in Dublin, they were obliged to give up to their landlords, or their agents, a greater proportion than they ought to have done consistently with the subsistence of their families ; in the course of the summer, they ran short of food, and to supply themselves, they were obliged to sell every disposable article they had ; they were obliged to sell their stock and household furniture. I made known the circumstance to a landlord on the occasion, REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 95 and his agent took offence at me, for stating the fact to the landlord, and soliciting some relief for the tenantry ; the noble lord sent to the agent the price of two tons of potatoes, that is 20/. and in consequence of that, 1 incurred the displeasure of the agent for interfering at all. Is there any distress existing at present, from the want of food in that district ? — I think a good deal of distress is be- ginning to show itself, more indeed from want of employment than from want of food ; in this way, when the price of food rises, and the rate of wages does not rise in the same propor- tion ; or when there is not employment for the whole of the people, distress exists ; when food is very cheap, there is no distress, because the people are very liberal. In the last year, potatoes were down to three halfpence, and a penny a weight, that is 21 lbs. ; this year they have risen to seven- pence, eight-pence, nine-pence, and ten-pence ; there was as much and more employment last year than there is this year ; and the consequence is, that the whole of the country, when I left it, was covered with shoals of vagrants, going about seeking relief ; women and children begging. Were the people belonging to the country, or strangers ?— People belonging to the country, and some strangers too. Is it not the practice, when a scarcity is apprehended, for the people, for a considerable time, to live very sparingly ?-^ It is. To what extent will they carry that practice, with regard to eating a sufficiency of proper food ? — Instead of eating three meals a day, they will eat but two ; and instead of two meals a day, they will live upon one ; I have known the families of farmers live upon one meal a day. For any considerable time ? — A month or six weeks. Is there much sickness in consequence of this scarcity ? — In general, fever and dysentery ; though I must say, that in the year 1822 there was less sickness than in any other period of distress, and the reason of that appears to be, the ample and timely supplies received from England. Has any plan occurred to you by which these occasional famines could be relieved ; any general plan of providing for the poor ? — I conceive the great cause of scarcity and distress is, that there is nothing to draw off the surplus population from exclusive dependence on the soil for support ; they must consequently look to land alone for the means of employment. The land proprietors have taken up an opinion latterly, that the cause of their distress is the over-stocking the land with people ; and as the leases fall in, they get rid of the surplus population by turning them out entirely from their lands. 96 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Those poor people, not getting employment, either erect tem- porary habitations like sheds on the highway, or they come into towns and crowd themselves into small apartments, per- haps four or five families would live in a garret or small hovel, huddled together there, without clothes or bedding, or food, living upon the chance of employment in the town as labourers. That employment they cannot procure. It is only three weeks or about a month ago, that I saw on an estate, to which I alluded before, a certain farm that had forty families residing on it, thinned in this manner. What was the extent of it ? — I suppose it might be 500 acres, including the bad land ; a great deal of bad land upon it. Those forty families consisted of 200 individuals. When the lease fell in, in pursuance of the general system adopted amongst the landlords, twenty-eight or thirty of those fami- lies, consisting of 150 individuals, were dispossessed ; they were allowed to take with them the old roofs of the cabins, that is the rotten timber and rotten straw ; and with those they contrived to erect sheds upon the highway. The men could get no employment, the women and children had no re- source but to go to beg ; and really it was a most affecting scene to behold them upon the highway, not knowing where to go to. This system is becoming prevalent, and therefore I conceive the cause of distress to be the excess of population with want of employment ; and there being no legal provision for securing subsistence for those poor people that are thrown as destitute vagrants upon the world. Have not potatoes been a very considerable export from the district of Skibbereen for many years past ? — They have. To Cork and Dublin ? — To Cork and Dublin, and Water- ford and Limerick also. If it were not for the exportation of potatoes from that dis- trict, do you not think there would be sufficient food to feed the population of that district ? — Yes, if all the potatoes re- moved there, except in cases of failures of crops, which is a matter of frequent occurrence ; but if exportation were dis- couraged, potatoes would not be grown to the extent they are. The question refers to the average of years ? — Upon an ave- rage of years I think there would. Do you think in any year, even a year of the greatest dis- tress, there has not been sufficient potatoes grown in the dis- trict for the consumption of the population, had they all re- mained in the district ? — I apprehend not ; I think in the year 1822 there would not have been a sufficiency. Did you make a statement with regard to an alteration in REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 97 the mode of letting land similar to that which you have now made to the Committee, in a letter to the London Tavern committee ? — I did. Will you look at that letter, and see whether it is a copy of your's ? — This is a part of the letter. It is this. — " The mid- " dleman being bound by contract to make good engagements *' which the change of times disables him to fulfil, cannot ** exercise towards the tenant that lenity which he does not ** himself experience ; hence he is forced to exercise against '' the occupier a severity from which in many instances his *' natural disposition revolts. But the occupier is the last and " greatest sufferer. After an unavailing struggle for some *' time to retain a house and holding for his family, by *' parting with every thing in the hope that times might mend *' and prices rise, he is finally dismissed from his farm, stript ** of all he ever possessed, and forced to seek shelter in some *' lane in the next town, in the hope of subsisting as a day- *' labourer. " The redundant population of this island is looked upon by them as a main cause of the decreasing value of land, and of the inability of tenants to pay rent ; it has therefore become a favourite object with the owners of land to thin the popu- lation on their estates, under the idea that being too nume- rous, they consume the whole produce of the land, and leave nothing for the owners ; yet if this plan be acted upon, as it is beginning^ to be extensively, what is to become of the people ? they have not the means to emigrate, nor can they get land or employment at home. A poor man thus dismissed with his family, from his dwelling and land, with perhaps one or two cows, a few sheep or a horse — the whole of which may not, at existing prices, be worth five pounds, — seeks, in the first instance, to procure a lot of land from some middle man, who has cleared the farm of the pauper tenants whom he had previously ruined, and who is induced to take him as tenant, because he possessed a cow, a horse, or some sheep ; the rent is such as the middle man chooses to impose, the tenant being willing to promise any thing rather than go into a town, where he knows he cannot find employment, and hoping to get subsistence for a year or two, on Ins new holding ; but at the end of a year, all that he has is seized for his new master, and he is ultimately compelled to seek an asylum in some hovel in town, trusting for his support to the precarious chances of daily labour." Are there a great number of persons, throughout the coun- try, circumstanced like those you have just described ? — Tlje H 98 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. system is becoming more general ; the system of turning off the surplus population is becoming quite prevalent. Are you of opinion that any plan can be devised for giving relief to the poor in cases of emergency ? — I think that the tendency, on the part of landlords, to turn off, in that un- merciful way, their surplus stock, as they call it, of men, would be considerably checked, if there was some legal obli- gation imposed upon them to provide for those poor people till they could provide for themselves, or to do as I heard was done in Scotland by the Marchioness of Stafford, when she lessened the population upon her estates. She procured tem- porary accommodation for the deprived tenants, shipped them at her own cost for America, and settled them there ; I have heard that she did so ; and those people are much better off than they would have been had they continued in the Highlands. Do you think that any plan of emigration, carried on at the expense of government, would prove effectual ? — I think that a plan of emigration might answer very well for the present, but unless some other plan was adopted to check the pro- gressive disproportion between employment and population, the evil would be of constant recurrence ; and then the sys- tem of emigration should be kept up perpetually. Do you think any part of the principle of the English poor laws could be introduced.? — I think so; under the existing circumstances, and under certain modifications, I think that the principle ought to be adopted in some way applicable to the state of the country. Would you carry that principle further than the support of the aged and infirm ? — I would carry it as far as is necessary to protect the poor, and to produce a community of feeling between the proprietors of the land and the population ; so that it would be the interest and duty of the proprietors to provide employment for the population ; and so that the people would feel they had some tie upon the land, and that mutual good feeling would be the result ; then they would feel an interest in the continuance of the existing order of things. Do you think any measure would be useful in Ireland, the effect of which was to render the increase of population still more rapid in that country than it is now is ? — That is a very abstract question ; but I should say, certainly not, if other circumstances did not render such a measure absolutely ne- cessary. Then supposing that the tendency of poor laws elsewhere has been found to lead to an increase of population, do you think the introduction of the poor laws in Ireland would do REV. MICHAET. COLLINS EXAMINED. 99 good ? — If the tendency of the poor laws elsewhere has been found to produce an increase of population disproportioned to the means of employment, I should think that it would not be a useful measure, except existing; necessity authorized it ; what I mean by an existing necessity is this ; that the people at present are in so destitute a state, that if some legal pro- vision is not made for them, they must perish, either by famine or by pestilence, or by the sword, for disturbance must continue. Supposing a system of parochial rates to be introduced into Ireland, would not the effect of it be to tax the property of landlords who might by possibility have improved the con- dition of their tenants, for the benefit of adjoining estates where such care had not been shewn ? — I think a qualification might be introduced in the bill that would meet that evil. Do you think that any law which has a tendency of securing people's support, independent of their own exertions, can be favourable to the condition of the lower orders in Ireland? — I think that there exists in human nature a principle which will always induce men to prefer acquiring their subsistence from their own exertions rather than in an eleemosynary way; that men will always prefer deriving their support from their own labour to deriving it from a system of alms and charity. Will not those feelings exist in a very different degree in different persons ? — A great deal will depend upon good edu- cation, and habits derived from comfort ; I know that the people in general in my country would prefer w^orking for their hire than procuring subsistence by begging. Do you not think there are a great number of an opposite feeling, and who would become idle from a certainty of being provided for by the poor laws ? — Many instances perhaps may be found, but in laying down a general rule, we must advert to the greater number of cases. Do you not think, in other words, that it would increase the number of paupers ? — Indeed I do not think it would, if checked by other circumstances ; for instance, in Scotland, Mr. M'Culloch tells us the same law exists as in England for the relief of the poor, yet from the system that I understand exists there, both as to education of the people and providing for them employment, and preventing the progress of popula- tion from exceeding the means of employment, these poor laws are, in a manner, inoperative there ; they are not carried into effect as in this country, though the poor laws are the same as here. Have you found any difference of late years in the dispo- sition of your parishioners to coine to confession ; have they H 2 100 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. been more or less disposed than they formerly were? — In' my immediate district, I find in general that they are as well dis- posed, with this qualification, a great many of them are not so well instructed as we wish. It appears to me that they are not instructed, from the want of an adequate number of teach- ers and clergymen, and I fear many are falling off on that account. Do you find any difference in the disposition of your pa- rishioners to confess, in consequence of a more tranquil or a more disturbed state of the country ? — I should think that if the country were disturbed, they would not come to confes- sion at all. I have heard, and I believe that in the parts of the country that were disturbed, it formed a part of their con- federacy not to go to confess to the priest. That where illegal oaths were administered, it formed part of the obligation not to go to confession ? — To abstain altogether from confession : first, lest the consciences of those going to confession would be acted upon by the priest ; se- condly, as it would be altogether useless to them whilst they were in that state. So that the obligation of this secret oath was paramount to the conscientious influence of the priest? — Yes, upon such as took the oaths ; but when they were stimulated by the priest to come to confession, they were told, that the first thing necessary to enable them to make a good confession, was to withdraw from illegal associations, and to consider themselves bound to violate that oath ; that illegal oaths were not binding on the conscience. Has the priest any moral power of compelling his flock to come to confession — is there any spiritual censure consequent upon the neglect of that duty I — .There is a general law of the church which renders it obligatory on persons to confess at least once a year, and there is a censure annexed to their not doing so ; but the influence of this censure upon the minds of people depends upon the influence of public opinion; and when they are more under the influence of their bad feelings or dispositions, they set at nought our menaces. It is not followed by any interdiction from the rites of the church ? — They will apply for no rites of the church until they come to confession, with the exception of marriage alone. Suppose a person was to apply to you to be married who had not confessed within a proper period, would any objection be taken ? — We would exhort him to come to confession, and he might come to confession ; but I should apprehend that it would be a matter of form on his part ; he will bend his knee REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. lOl to the priest, and if he be disposed to make a frank and free confession, he would disclose his sins ; but if he chooses to comply only with the letter of the law, we cannot take notice of it, because we cannot take notice of any thing that is done in confession out of the tribunal. Do you apprehend that the force of those sacred oaths ever extends to this point, that it should not merely keep an indi- vidual away from confession, but that it should induce him, when at confession, to make only a partial confession ? — I should fear it would, and particularly among the uninstructed, for there are a great many of the people very ignorant. I should think it would ; I cannot speak from my own know- ledge. It has been stated to the Committee by several witnesses, that the lower orders are very much in the habit of taking false oaths in courts of justice and elsewhere ? — I am afraid they are. Can you explain to the Committee from what cause that arises ? — The poverty of the people in a great measure, their extreme poverty and their ignorance, and above all, the in- fluence of immoral men in comparatively a high station of life, such as their landlords, who want to get their votes at elections, or the agents of those landlords, men who, though they rank as gentlemen, probably have no more regard for the morality of an oath than those poor people themselves. Do you mean the influence of their example r — Their ex- ample, their authority, the influence of w^ealth over poverty, and all those causes put together. Does any part of it arise from the want of a sufticient num- ber of religious instructors ? — I should take that to be the great cause of their not being sufficiently instructed ; but they all generally know more or less the nature of an oath. Have you and your assistant in your parish sufficient oppor- tunities of attending to all the religious duties of the nume- rous people living in it? — We endeavour to instruct them, but many of them cannot hear our instructions from the smallness of the places of worship ; and then our duties are very labo- rious, our number being small. We have two chapels to attend to, and each of us celebrates two masses on Sundays and holidays, in each of those chapels. What other laborious duties have you to perform in the course of a week ? — The sick are very numerous, and they must be attended. Do you attend all the sick that apply ? — Certainly; and the confessional is a labour that must be likewise attended to, though, from the fewness of our numbers, we are not able 102 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. to hear the whole of those who apply ; and in a wide district of country, the priest on horseback loses a great deal of time in going from place to place. It has been stated to the Committee, that a person guilty of perjury can get absolution ; is that true ? — I should be glad to know what is understood by absolution ; perhaps the person that made that statement did not know the Catholic meaning of the word absolution. It might be true or false in his sense. Is it m point of fact true that a person being guilty of per- jury can get from the priest absolution, under any circum- stances, understanding, by the term absolution, a full pardon given by the priest for the sin of perjury? — Undoubtedly there is no sin for which pardon cannot be procured by repentance, but it must be a sincere repentance ; there is no sin that can- not be absolved by sincere repentance. Will you explain freely your view of the nature of absolu- tion ? — By absolution is meant, that when a person comes, and discloses the state of his conscience to a priest having autho- rity to hear him, with the necessary accompanying disposi- tions, such as sincere sorrow and contrition for his sins, and forms a resolution to sin no more, and a resolution to make adequate atonement both to God and his neighbour for his sins ; fo God by penance imposed upon himself, to the neigh- bour by the satisfaction enjoined by the duties of justice and charity ; — a person coming with these dispositions, resolved to forsake sin, never to return to it, and to make restitution in the way I have described, may get pardon and absolution ; but the condition of that absolution is, that he shall promise, in the most sincere manner, never again to commit those or any other crimes, never to resort to the occasion of them. If he belong to an illegal society, if he resort to improper com- pany, if he frequent improper places, he must promise to avoid these occasions of sin ; in fact, he must promise to be- oome a new man ; and on those conditions,tif they be sincere on the penitent's part, we think the priest empowered to pro- nounce a sentence of absolution. Does this doctrine differ at all from the doctrine of the es- tablished church ? — There is something analogous to it in the established church, I believe ; in the Liturgy there is a form of absolution given, but it is more a form of prayer than the judicial act of a confessor, empowered, as we conceive, to ab- solve, " whose sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto them ;" and we believe they have this power when the peni- tents bring the necessary conditions, but without those condi- tions, it is not in the power of a bishop, or even the Pope, to absolve even for a venial sin. REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 103 You have stated, that there is no sin for which a person cannot obtain absolution by repentance ; would you extend that even to murder? — Undoubtedly ; even in the established church a clergyman accompanies a murderer to the place of execution. Do you speak of before or after trial ; do you mean, that before trial a person who confessed to his priest that he had committed the atrocious sin of murder, that before trial the priest, upon those conditions, would absolve him? — Undoubt- edly ; and if he be truly penitent, why not ? will that injure the morality of society ? He is disposed to make restitution as far as he can, even with his life, if necessary, to offended justice, but he is not bound to denounce himself; but, in practice, murderers in the custody of the law are, I believe, seldom or never absolved until the eve of execution. By the discipline of our church every priest approved by the bishop, and licensed to hear confessions, has not the power of absolv- ing in all cases ; there are a certain number of atrocious crimes that the bishop reserves to himself, and some of them are even reserved for the Pope; but in countries where access to the Pope's penitentiary would be too difficult, the power is delegated to the diocesan bishop, and the bishop can delegate the power to the priest under him, so that a person guilty of murder applying to me in my own parish for absolution, I can- not absolve him, I should refer him to the bishop : this is done in order to impress upon his mind the atrociousness of the crime, and in order to make him more sensible of the necessity of repentance, and in order to make the crime more horrible in his mind. There are many sins that are thus specially reserved by the bishop, such as the sins of wilful perjury before a magistrate, or in courts of justice, or perjury generally, being engaged with any illegal associations ; the atonement in the case of perjury would be, first, the atone- ment arising from the obligation of satisfying the ends of jus- tice ; if the perjurer had been the means of depriving his neighbour of his property or character unjustly, it would be enjoined on him to restore the ill-gotten property, or, if he had not got it himself, to compel the party who has got it to do it ; if he was the cause of loss of life or limb, he was bound, as far as he could, to make adequate atonement to those concerned, then the atonement between himself and his God would be prayer, fasting, alms-deeds, and self-denial, practised in every way. Would the atcmement be a preliminary condition to abso- lution, or only a contingent condition? — The atonement to justice must be preliminary, that must be satisfied in the first 104 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. instance ; if any person comes and accuses himself of robbery, or fraud, he cannot receive absolution till he has made resti- tution, if he be able ; if a person connected vs'ith an illegal association were to come to confession, he must withdraw^ himself from that association before he is absolved ; I should also add, that all persons coming to confession, and profess- ing to bring with them the necessary conditions, are not im- mediately absolved, they are deferred from time to time, ac- cording to the nature and enormity of their sins, until the confessor is satisfied of their being truly penitent. What has been the feeling of Catholic priests in general, with respect to schools for the education of the lower classes; have they felt it consistent with their duties to encourage them, or have they felt any difficulty on that subject ? — Not the slightest difficulty, provided the mode of education were consistent with the principles of their religion ; on the con- trary, we should all hail with gratitude those benefactors that would assist us in conveying maral instruction to the poor people. Have the priesthood generally objected to schools, the ob- ject of which was merely to teach reading, writing, and arith- metic, unless those schools conveyed moral and religious in- struction, according to the form of the Catholic church? — They have not objected to such schools ; they would prefer schools in the way described, but as they cannot get them in that way, they would have no objection to the establishment of schools that would give elementary instruction to the poor, it would enable the poor to acquire religious knowledge after- wards. Have they objected to the reading of the scriptures in those schools? — They have. Is that an objection generally founded upon the principles of the Catholic church, or does it arise from a particular view taken by individual priests? — It is an objection founded upon the discipline of the Catholic church, and partly their principles too ; I will state my reasons. Will you state the extent to which their objection goes? — It is a principle with Catholics, that the right of private judg- ment in the interpretation of the scriptures must be excluded, and can never be admitted ; and therefore placing the scrip- tures in the hands of youth, unaccompanied with interpreta- tion, or with the means of interpreting them according to the sense of the church, would in the mind of a Catholic, be lay- ing a foundation for diversity of opinion in religious matters. Indeed the ultimate principle upon which Protestants diffisr from Catholics? is the right of private judgment allowed by REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 105 Protestants, and the exclusion of that right by the Catholics ; any principle that goes to establish the right of private opi- nion in matters of faith, instead of the public sense of the church, is a principle that Catholics cannot recognise ; put- ting the scriptures into the hands of uninstructed persons un- accompanied by interpretation, would, in the opinion of many Catholics, lead to establish that right of private opinion which they consider to be the root and fountain of all the sects that have appeared throughout the world. Are there editions of the scriptures accompanied by any comments, the reading of which in schools is sanctioned by Catholic priests? — Yes ; the priests would be very glad to put the scriptures into the hands of their people generally, accom- panied by the comments, or unaccompanied by the comment, if the people were prepared to receive them ; but putting them into the hands of youth as school-books, they consider would make them too familiar with them, and tend to lessen the re- verence due to them. Is there any school with which you are connected, at Skib- bereen? — Yes ; I have got a school under my own care. How many children are there in that school ? — One hun- dred and fifty ; the reason there are not more is, that the poor cannot spare their children. I suppose I would have five hundred children in the school, if I had the means of feeding them. Is there a great anxiety on the part of the people in the country for education ? — A great anxiety. What funds have you for that? — I pay the master 20/. a year, which I raise by a tax of two ten-pennies, which I lay upon the sponsors at each baptism ; there are two sponsors at each baptism, and they each pay me a ten-penny ; that does not make up the whole salary ; I pay the rest out of my own pocket. Is Reeves's History of the Bible used in that school ? — It is. What other books are used in the school ? — Chaloner's " Think well on't," and Fleury's Historical Catechism ; then there is Dr. England's System of Education for children, which consists of reading lessons, conveying moral and useful illus- trations taken from sacred history, and a little natural his- tory ; Murphy's Catholic Education, in three volumes. Those also contain moral instruction, and some inquiry into natural history, or pleasing and attractive stories that excite moral feelings, or convey some knowledge of arts and sciences. Do you make use of the tablets, as they are called, pub- lished by the Kildare-street Society t — I do not know whether 106 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. they are the tablets of the Kildare-street Society, but we have tablets. Is Dr. England a dignitary of the Roman Catholic church ? — He is now bishop of Charlestown in America, but he was a distinguished clergyman in Cork. Has not the great objection which has been made in some places by the Roman Catholic clergy against reading the scriptures, been principally against the introduction of the Bible in schools as a school book ? — Certainly, they consider it altogether an unfit book to be put into the hands of children. Have you ever heard the Catholic clergy and the dignitaries of the Catholic church admitting the principle of reading in the school the gospel of the day, reserving to the priest, after school hours, the right of explaining that gospel to the chil- dren ? — I have heard, since I came to town, of such a thing ; but I did not know it till I came here. The bishops in the south are averse to any communication with the Kildare-street Society, because they conceive there is a latent purpose in the perseverance with which the Society adhere to the introduc- tion of the scriptures into the schools ; they conceive there are ulterior views to Protestantism ; and that it is now only laying the foundation of proselytism, expecting to get hereafter a hold on the minds of the people ; and therefore the bishops are adverse to any communication with the Kildare-street So- ciety. Have you seen any tract of that description put into circu^ lation in the south of Ireland ? {handing a tract to witness). — I did not see this exactly, but I know there are many of that character in circulation. What is the title of it ? — " Latin prayers, not fit for Irish- men." Do you think, that the circulation of tracts of that descrip- tion amongst the Catholic peasantry has augmented their dis- like to the reading of the scriptures ? — Undoubtedly it has ; they cannot distinguish the Kildare-street Society from the Hibernian Society, or the " Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge," the grand object of which societies is the proselyting of the Irish peasantry by educating them with Protestant masters and Protestant books. Is it not the professed and declared object of some of those societies to make proselytes ? — It certainly is the object of the Hibernian society, and it is an avowed and known object of the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge. There is a school established upon that principle in my parish, and REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 107 there was an attempt made to force the children of my parish to go to it, but the attempt failed. Have you known any attempt made to carry the children to Protestant places of worship? — Yes. Some of the Catholic children attended it, and they were taken to church : in fact, the school is held in the church. There was another attempt in Bandon ; Catholic children were lured into the school by promises of clothing and food occasionally, and after being there some weeks or months, they were marched to the Pro- testant place of worship. I think it was a meeting-house, not the church. In fact, has not the opposition which has been made by Ca- tholic priests to the establishment of schools indifferent parts of Ireland, been with a view of preventing this progress of making proselytes ? — Certainly, we should hail education most cordially if it were given to us upon fair terms. Do not you conceive, that it would have a very beneficial effect in Ireland if it were possible to educate the Protestants and Catholics among the peasantry in the same schools ? — In many parts of Ireland that is impossible, because you would find no Protestants : if it were possible I do not know that it would have effect, either one way or the other. I do not think it would have any effect either good or bad. Do not you think it might tend to do away the spirit of acri- mony between the two sects ? — I do not think that will be ef- fectually done away by the common intercourse of life, if they were upon one common level in the eye of the lav/. Do not you think it would be mainly accessory to such a happy effect, if the children of the two persuasions could be put together, and educated together, without causing jealousy on the part of the Catholic priesthood?— I do not think it would have any material effect either for or against it alto- gether ; practically, the great bulk of children are educated together at the same schools: I myself was educated at the school of a Protestant minister. The question refers to the peasantry of the country ? — Even those persons are educated together, for you will find Catholic children in the schools of Protestants, and Protestant children in the schools of Catholics. Do not you think, that if the means of mixing them together could be found, that it would facilitate the means of educa- tion, and be a great encouragement to Catholics to contribute to those funds without fear or jealousy ? — I think it would be a desirable thing, but I do not think it would have the effect that is anticipated. You have stated, that it being the doctrine of the Catholic 108 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. church, that there is no right of private interpretation of the holy scriptures, and that, therefore, it is an objectionable thing: to put the scriptures without comment into the hands of uninformed children, does that apply to the doctrinal parts of the scriptures only, or does it embrace every part of the Bible, moral as well as doctrinal ? — It does, because there have been misinterpretations of the moral parts as well as the doctrinal. Do not you think there are parts of the Bible of which there cannot be misinterpretations, and do not you think, that if there are such parts, they might be extracted and put into the hands of the children without comment, and without any in- terference on the part of the schoolmaster ? — I do think, that if there was a frank and open communication between both parties, that books might be selected that would be unobjec- tionable to both parties ; I do think that an accommodation might take place if it were deemed necessary. Have not many prelates of the Protestant church objected to reading the scriptures without note or comment ? — Yes ; I have heard of Dr. Marsh for instance, and I have heard that the presbytery of Scotland object to the introduction of scrip- ture into the schools without note or comment. I have heard that Bishop Marsh has objected to the Bible societies, and the Archbishop of Armagh withdrew himself from the Bible asso- ciation, on the grounds that the tendency was to produce an indefinite propagation of different religious sects. That is precisely the opinion of the Catholic church, is it not ? — It is. As far as your observation goes, do you conceive that the lower classes are most likely to be made anxious for education for their children, when their instruction is given entirely gratuitously, or where they make some small payment on their own part for it, in which case do you think they attach the greatest value to the instruction conferred ? — Those that are able to pay have an objection to merely charitable education ; but there are few of that description in Ireland ; but it would be desirable that a system should be established that would as much as possible throw into the shade the character of a cha- ritable institution ; that is, that the people should pay some- thing, so that they would not have the name of charity schools. The question refers to schools established by private pro- prietors upon their own estates ; you think that a school to which the parent should make some small contribution would be more gratifying to their feelings ? — It would ; but then a school altogether established upon that principle would exclude a great proportionof the population who are unable to pay anything. REV MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 109 How is the fact with regard to the school you have estab- lished ? — A great part of the children are mere paupers ; those that are able to pay any thing prefer going to other schools, instead of going to the poor schools. Are any of the children prevented attending the school on the ground of not having decent clothing?— A great many. I often ask ragged children in the streets, why they do not come to school, and they say they have not clothes, besides that they have no food. Their estimate of the necessary degree of clothing is not very high ? — No ; they v/ould be content with very little. It has been stated to the Committee, that lives of thieves and other improper books have been found in schools in the county of Cork ; what information can you give the Commit- tee with respect to the use of that sort of books ? — In conse- quence of a statement to that effect made in the House of Commons by a member of the House, the report of which made a great sensation in Ireland, a correspondence on that subject was commenced, and is now carrying on between the Catholic Association and Catholic priesthood, in the south. The priesthood have made returns of the state of education in their several parishes ; the books used in these schools, and the number of schools and scholars in each parish, and they all concur in declaring, in the most solemn manner, that those books have not been read in the schools as school books, nor found there at all. There may be instances in which books of that kind have found their way into a school, but they were never countenanced by the Catholic clergy, nor by school- masters ; nor is it fair to say, that because an improper book happens to be found in some few schools, it is the school book of the country. For I doubt very much whether in the highest places of education some objectionable books may not have been surreptitiously brought in now and then ; but charac- terizing the education of the Irish peasantry as being contined to books of that description, is a very unfair imputation, and a very unfounded one. You stated the other day, very clearly and distinctly, what you conceived to be the feelings of the people upon the sub- ject of what is commonly called Catholic emancipation ; you were questioned as to the effect the enactments of 1793 have had upon the minds of the people, and you seem to think that they have not had much permanent eflect in doing away the sore feelings that had prevailed previously to that ; and you seem to think that the cause of that was, that in point of fact, in many respects, those enactments have not been operative ; it is your opinion then, that they conceive that although that 110 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. relaxation has taken place, that an exclusive system still pre- vails ? — Yes. You seem to think that if the remaining disabilities were done away, even though there were a reservation of certain great offices of state which it might be deemed expedient, for the security of the Protestant establishment, to keep in Pro- testants hands, that the Catholic population would in that case be satisfied ?— Yes, they would be so far satisfied, that the existing discontent would cease. Do you think they would consider that as a proof, that the exclusive system was abandoned? — Undoubtedly they would. Allow me to say, that when I was questioned as to certain great offices of state, I explained that I meant only two offices, that is the chancellorship and the royal authority. Even if the progress of the operation of any such removal of the disabilities were slow, if Catholics were only to be gra- dually admitted, do you still think that the feelings under which they now labour would be done away, from their notion that ultimately they would be admitted practically as well as theoretically to the full benefits of the constitution ? — I am convinced that the existing soreness and irritation would be considerably diminished by that hope. Have not several parish priests been exposed to great hard- ship from being prosecuted for marrying Catholics and Pro- testants ? — Yes, 1 have heard of many being exposed to hard- ship, either from actual prosecution, or from apprehension of being prosecuted, and many have been threatened ; in that case we act with very great caution. Were there not some prosecutions, within the last year or two, of this kind ? — I heard of some. To what punishment are you subject for marrying a Catholic and a Protestant ? — The law is rather strange ; there are two punishments, first, we are liable to be hanged, and then to a fine of 500/. Is it not matter of difficulty, sometimes, to be quite certain of the religion of the parties ? — Certainly ; any person that wished to lay a snare for my life might do it, by pretending to be a Catholic. Was a priest of the name of Blake prosecuted, within the last two years, at the assizes at Galway ? — I do not know whether 1 read that trial, but I recollect to have read a trial, I believe in the diocese of Tuam, of a priest prosecuted within these two years ; he was nevertheless acquitted, because the testimony was not conclusive, but there were other priests that were found guilty. Does any law affi>rd you protection during the administra- REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Ill tion of service in your chapels, from disturbance and riot ? — No, except the common law of the land, when an actual assault takes place, or where a riot takes place ; but there is no law such as exists in England, for I consulted a lawyer on one occasion, and he told me, that the law that existed in England for that protection did not apply to Ireland. Are not all dissenting houses of worship, Catholics and Protestants, and the clergy belonging to them, protected by special Act of Parliament ? — I understand they are in Eng- land. Do you conceive that a magistrate can with impunity in- terrupt you in the performance of your sacred functions, on a Sunday ? — Any common man can do it that chooses to do it, unless he commits a riot ; I consulted a lawyer, and he told me that any man might do it, unless an actual riot were com- mitted ; and it was my intention to petition the legislature on that point, for some protection for the Catholic priests. Is it not in the power of any magistrate to come to your chapel on a Sunday, when you are performing mass, and to turn you and your congregation out, for no other reason than that you are performing mass ? — He can be punished under the common law, as an intruder and breaker of the peace, but if he were to make a noise in the chapel, and sing a song during mass, I cannot prevent him. A magistrate has no greater power than any other person ? —No greater power. In point of fact, does such interruption take place? — Very often ; even some of the Whiteboys interrupted a priest who remonstrated against the Whiteboy system. So that that interruption takes place as frequently with Catholics as Protestants ? — Yes ; Protestants never interfere with us at all, indeed they dare not do it, the people would fall upon them. Speaking generally, without particularizing the individual instances, has it more than once happened to you to be inter- rupted in the performance of your religious functions in your chapel, by the disorderly conduct of individuals ? — It has. And in those cases what means of redress have you felt to be within your power ? — I have had no legal means of redress, except the moral influence of having the great bulk of people on my side, might deter people from doing an act that might bring summary punishment on them. In the cases to which you allude has the performance of service been interrupted or prevented ? — Interrupted, and prevented in one or two instances. In those cases of disturbance to which you allude, were the 112 EEV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. disturbing parties of your own communion or not? — They were of my own communion ; the truth is, a Protestant could not come there unless he had a military power to support him, because he would bring the whole rage of the populace upon him immediately. Have you known the collection of church rates, of rates for building and repairing churches, produce disturbance in the parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted ? — Yes ; very recently. Will you explain the circumstances ? — The island of Innis- herkin is a small island, forming part of the parish of Tullah, and being off the harbour of Baltimore. The island is not in my district, but the main part of the parish is ; it is separated from the main land by a distance of about a mile. The inhabitants are about a thousand, having about 200 houses. They are very poor ; so much so, that when the attempt was made by the priest residing there, not long since, to levy an assessment of threepence-halfpenny per house for the repair of their old chapel, which was in utter ruin, (it was a mere hovel, partly covered with ragged straw, and without door or window) he failed in raising that sum, from their inability to pay it ; and shortly after the churchwarden, residing on the main land, came in with his assistants, to levy a tax of 4.?. 6ti. in the gneeve, imposed by the church vestry, for the repayment of a sum of money, advanced by the Board of First Fruits for the building of a church on the main land, to which they were liable. The common people thought it hard and unnatural, that whereas they could not contribute any thing to shelter themselves from the wind and rain in their chapel, they should be obliged to pay a heavy tax for a church not in the island, but far from them ; and particularly when they recollected that that church was built more for ornament than for use ; inasmuch as a good church had pre- viously existed in another part of the parish, which might have been kept in good repair, at a moderate expense. But it was deemed more ornamental, and more picturesque to transfer the site of the church to a prominent point at the opening of the harbour, where it would have a pretty effect of landscape.. The church was buiit there, and a tax has been these five years annually levied upon the small and poor popu- lation for the building of that church, unnecessary, both in the minds of Catholics and Protestants, for the Protestant 'clergyman was, as I heard, against the building of that church ; but the people resisted the payment of the tax, though the priest and I, who had occasion to go there, remonstrated with them upon the folly of their attempting REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 113 to resist in that way ; but they are very warm in the expres- sion of their passions, and they said they would sooner die than pay such an unnatural tax as that ; nevertheless it was levied, and they resisted. An order came down from the Castle of Dublin that the police should be sent there, and an old woman was brought out, and was to be tried at the last sessions in Skibbereen, for this breach of the law; yet their own chapel is in ruins. Is it probable that an arrangement will be made to diminish the number of holidays ? — I should prefer that that question should be asked of some of our bishops ; I know it is pos- sible, because I know the number has been diminished in France and in Italy. In France, the number of holidays are fewer than in Ireland ; there are only four holidays in the year there. What are they ? — All Saints day, Ascension day ; 1 believe the feast of St. Louis, and the 15th of August, being the As- sumption of the blessed Virgin, and Christmas-day. And Good Friday ? — Good Friday is not a holiday in the Catholic Church. You were lately in Rome ? — I was there last spring was four years ; 1 have not taken the number, but I know they are considerably reduced. What is the number observed in the Catholic church in Ire- land? — The Circumcision, on January 1st; the Epiphany, January 6th ; the feast of St. Patrick, March 17th ; the An- nunciation of the Blessed Virgin, March 25th; the feast of St. John the Baptist, on the 24th of June ; of SS. Peter and Paul, the 29th June ; the Assumption of the Blessed Vir- gin, August 15th ; All Saints day, November 1st; and Christ- mas-day. The moveable feasts are, Easter Monday, Ascen- sion Thursday, Whit-Monday, and the feast of Corpus Christi. Is it not commonly the practice of gentlemen to apply to priests on particular days, to exempt the people from the holidays ? — It is. And no objection is made to dispense with it ? — Where the observance of a holiday would be attended with any material injury to a poor man, the dispensation is always granted. Or to his industry ? — Yes. With reference to the case of Patrick Collins, who was ap- prehended under the Insurrection Act ; the Insurrection Act was enforced in the district in which this occurrence took place ? — The whole county was proclaimed. Is it an offence against that Act to be out after that hour ? — It is an offence against that Act ; but that Act is not en- 114 REV. MICHAEL COLLINfS EXAMINED. forced in that part of the country against any body ; we are out at all hours ; it was not, and is not, at all enforced in practice, on account of the existing tranquillity of the country. The Act was legally in force ? — It was legally in force. By that Act it is an offence to be absent from home after sunset? — Yes. And this individual was guilty of that offence ? — He was, in common with every other person of the country ; he, seeing every one out after sunset, thought it was no offence in him to be out ; his complaint was, that he was selected for that purpose without cause. His complaint was, not that he was apprehended without legal cause, but that the law was enforced against him, it not being enforced invariably against all ? — It being enforced against nobody else ; and then his being sent to Cork, as a person suspected of illegal practices, and not being brought to trial. When he was brought before Serjeant Lloyd, although there was no information, still Serjeant Lloyd did not liberate him, but remanded him to prison ? — Because the learned Serjeant did not know what charge was made against him ; he could not know it until the informations were produced. You stated that you considered many Catholics to disap- prove wholly of the conduct of the association, in mixing up other matters, such as church reform, the question of the union, and other questions, with the consideration of the Ca- tholic question ? — I am sure that has not the concurrence of the Catholics generally. You were further asked, whether the Catholics had dis- avowed the association in these respects, and you stated they had not ; do you conceive that an indisposition on the part of the Catholics, to disavow the association in these respects, proceeds from an apprehension that they might thereby injure the discussion of the Catholic question itself ? — I do ; they do not wish to have any thing like the appearance of divisions among themselves ; and though the Catholic Association might be in error in one or two points, they still look upon them as a useful body. Does that public body express the Catholic opinion gene- rally ? — It expresses it in some points, it is not a representa- tive body, nor is it assumed to be such, but only a number of persons who have associated together for the promotion of the Catholic cause, and those persons have their individual opi- nions. Do you conceive that the power of the Catholic Association REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 115 depends altogether upon the continuarice of the Cathblic dis- abilities? — The association would become extinct if the dis- abilities were removed, they would no longer have any ground to work upon. Do you conceive that a petition to Parliament, \Vhich not only contained a prayer for the removal of those disabilities, but contained a great number of prayers upon political sub- jects, unconnected with the Catholic question, would meet the assent of the great mass of Catholics of Ireland ? — I do think that petitions coming from them as Catholics, contain- ing allegations and prayers to that effect, would be approved by the Catholics generally ; many Catholics, who disapprove of the mode of getting up these petitions, concur, neverthe- less, in the speculative opinions and sentiments expressed in them, but not as Catholics. Do you wish to add any thing to the evidence you have given .'' — 'Yes ; there are some things I was questioned very closely, regarding the distinction between gentlemen of patri- monial property and gentlemen of the inferior class, in the abuses of their office as magistrates, and whether I imputed the same to gentlemen of high rank ; I said, I did not gene- rally, but I have known gentlemen of high rank to be accused of similar things ; that is to say, gentlemen possessing, or known to possess hereditary influence, arising from their con- nexions and their property in the country, but pdl'haps a di- minished property just now ; I do not want to make any par- ticular allusions, but I want to show, that even gentlemen of that class were sometimes accused of being concerned in those mal-practices, though not generally. Then you consider it rather belonging to persons whose cir- cumstances are narrow, than those distinguished by any cri- terion of birth or station? — Yes, instances of that sort were very likely to be the result of straitened circumstances. I was questioned pointedly with regard to the insolence of the Protestant peasantry, founded upon the view they have of their legal privileges, and I was asked, why I did not disabuse them ; I had not instances then in my memory, but instances have occurred. Is there an Orange lodge amongst the yeomanry ? — There is ; that is termed an Orange corps. Are there many Protestants there ? — A great many ; that corps is exclusively Protestant ; there were a few Catholics, two or three, in it- Are there any other Orange lodges in the western part of the county of Corkr — I think there was one at Dunmanway ; I have heard, that at the Dunmanway fair, in 1821, the I 2 116 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Protestants attacked the people, and tbey wished to give the affray the character of rebellion. An appeal was made by them to government ; however the government had the good sense to send down an agent, and the result of his report was, that the aggression was on the part of the orangemen ; they either had cut down, or pretended that some timber was cut down, by people to make pikes ; it appeared that the tim- ber had been cut down by the owner of the land six months before. Who was the agent sent by government ? — Major Mahoney at Dunloe, in 1821. That corps is still embodied ? — I believe the Dunmanway and Clonakilty corps are in being still ; it was considered as tlie interest of the Protestants to give the character of dis- turbance to the country. I have known an instance, where a man went into the parish of Killmore, pretending that he w^as an agent of the Whiteboys, to stimulate the people to rebellion ; he had, I believe, Pastorini's prophecies ; he was taken up by gentlemen there, and brought a prisoner to Clo- nakilty ; he made a reference to a magistrate in Cork, who sent him down a testimonial, that he came as an agent from government, and he was liberated, when it turned out that he was a spy, when he was actually inflaming the people to rebellion. By whom was he apprehended in Clonakilty.? — By Mr. O'DrischoI, and by the Rev. Mr. Kenny. Do you know whether the prophecies of Pastorini were, in fact, circulated by this individual ? — I do not know whether they were circulated by him ; they were talked of in our county ; but last Easter Sunday my clerk took down some- thing of that sort of unintelligible farrago from my chapel doors, which I suspected was put up by some orangeman, but we could not trace it. Have you ever seen any tracts relating to the Antichrist, printed by the Religious Tract Society!^ — I have heard of their circulation; I have heard of their being dropped by people travelling in gigs, and picked up on the road by coun- trymen. Has the Orange lodge at Clonakilty an annual procession ? No ; they used to go to Bandon, to contribute to the proces- sions there. Are the processions at Bandon continued? — I believe they have desisted ; they did go in procession last year. Was there any riot? — I do not know, last year; but the year 1821 there were two murders ; a woman was shot, and the consequence was, that the Papists, as they were called, A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 117 murdered an innocent and poor Protestant at the fair of Ti- moiogue, about three days after the murder of the woman, by a cannon-shot. The orangemen carried a field-piece, loaded with stones ; they fired at the people, and they shot the woman. That was at Bandon ? — That was at Bandon ; three days after that an innocent poor man, a Protestant, was pointed out by some mischievous individual, at the fair of Timologue, as one of the Bandon orangemen, and the people assailed him, and murdered him. Is there an inscription over the gate at Bandon now ? — No ; that is down ; I do not know whether it was ever there. You never saw it ? — No ; nor never saw any body that did see it. Veneris 25° die Februarii, 1825. LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR. Anthony Richard Blake, Esq. called in ; and Examined. You are a Roman Catholic? — I am. You were absent from Ireland for some years till within a late period ? — Yes, for several years. Upon returning to Ireland, did you observe any alteration in the state generally of the country and the condition of the people ? — I left Ireland at a time of life at which one is not in the habit of considering very much the state of the country, about the age of nineteen ; but I was certainly at that time old enough to have some general impressions upon the sub- ject ; I think I have observed a change, and a change consi- derably for the better. Have you had opportunities of ascertaining the present con- dition of the lower orders of the people? — My duties, as a Commissioner of Education, took me during the last autumn into several counties of Ireland ; I observed then, with satis- faction, that the lower orders of the people appeared much more decently clad than they were when I left Ireland origi- nally, and I thought their general appearance considerably improved ; there is one subject on which of course I could give some information to the Committee, the important sub- ject of Education ; but upon this I submit that it would not be proper for me at present to speak, inasmuch as it will be myduty, with my colleagues, to submit facts and opinions upon it to the Crown, from whence our authority issues. il8 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. [ The Witness was informed that the Committee would abstain from proposing any Questions on that subject.'] Had you any opportunity of ascertaining to what degree the labouring class of the people was employed? — During the period I last referred to, the autumn of 1824, it appeared to me that the lower orders of the people were very generally employed, and I thought I observed habits of industry growing up amongst them. In what part of Ireland did you observe that ? — I was through the whole of Connaught in such a way as to enable me to form some opinion, because I dwelt a little in the different counties ; I was also in parts of Leinster and in part of Mun»ter. Had you any opportunity of ascertaining to what extent any feeling of discontent or disturbance prevailed amongst them, in any parts ? — So far as I could form an opinion from the out- ward appearance of things, I should conceive that there was not any disposition to disturbance existing at that time ; with respect to discontent, any opinion that I may have upon that subject is formed more upon information than observation, so far as relates to that particular tour ; I had conversations with the clergy of both denominations, (Protestants and Ro- man Catholic,) and with the gentry of all descriptions ; I have thus learned the state of the public mind through the interior of Ireland, and I am sorry to say that discontent, to a very alarming degree, prevails amongst the Roman Catholics, and that the most painful and lamentable dissensions exist, and are hourly increasing between them and the Protestants. Is that discontent general among them ? — I think there is a general feeling of discontent amongst the Roman Catholics, at the state of the laws respecting them ; I think at the same time that there is a general degree of satisfaction at the course pursued by the present government of Ireland towards them ; I am satisfied that this is the general feeling, from conversa- tions which I have had, particularly with the Rom,an Catho- lic clergy. In what manner was this discontent described to you to exist, and with respect to what particular parts of the law? — I should not say that it existed so far as my information went, or the impression which I received, with reference to any par- ticular part of that general code which creates disabilities in respect of the Roman Catholics ; there is a discontent pre- vailing universally amongst them at the general spirit and tenor of those statutes, by which the whole body is de- pressed and placed below the Protestants, without reference to rank, character, property or information. Did you discover that there was a general acquaintance A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 119 amongst the Catholic body, with the nature and extent of the existing penal disabilities ? — There is a general know- ledge amongst the Catholics, that Catholics as Catholics .are put below Protestants ; they know that the powers of the state, executive, legislative, and judicial, are by law required to be administered by persons who, as their qualification for administering them, must forswear the Roman Catholic reli- gion ; this produces continual irritation : I speak from con- versations with the Roman Catholic clergy and the Roman Catholic gentry as to the feelings of the lower orders; from personal observation as to those of the middling and higher orders. Has the information you have received induced you to form a belief, that the lower orders take much interest in the pre- sent state of the penal laws ? — Certainly ; I think, from what I have collected, that they feel that interest in two ways ; in the first place, their pride (and there is a sense of pride among the lower orders as well as among the higher) is wounded by the sense that they belong to a degraded class ; in the second place, there is a feeling amongst them, a feeling, however, which I am persuaded is a mistaken one as applied to the Judges of Ireland, that they have not an equal chance of an equal administration of justice with the Protestants ; they do not consider that a Protestant and a Roman Catholic stand upon equal ground, wherever questions arise between them which are to be disposed of by authorities exclusively Pro- testant ; they all consider that there is in the law a feeling of hostility towards the Roman Catholic religion, which is likely to pass from the law to those who administer the law, and to extend from the Roman Catholic religion to those who profess that religion. Did it happen to you to have any conversation with any of the lower class upon the subject of those laws ? — Not during my last tour ; I do not think I had much conversation wath the lower orders upon that occasion. I did not wish to speak to them upon political questions, while engaged in the duties upon which I then was ; at other times I have. Did you find, in conversation, that they were sensible of their political condition? — Certainly ; it is impossible to speak, at least I have found it so, to a Roman Catholic upon the state of the law, without perceiving that it creates a sense of hard- ship and grievance in his mind. Do they feel much interest in the various proceedings that take place, with a view of altering the law ? — I cannot speak to that from personal knowledge, so far as relates to the lower orders ; but I understand from others, that they mani- 120 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. fest the utmost anxiety to learn what the neAvspapers contain, what Parliament is doing, and so forth, whenever a question relating to the Roman Catholics is under discussion. Can you state to the Committee the precise disabilities under which the Catholics now labour ? — For that purpose I should beg, with great deference, to refer to the Act of 1793, which the Committee, I presume, are aware, is an act of ge- neral qualification, subject to particular exceptions. The Act of 1793 repealed all disabilities to which the Roman Catholics were liable, subject to particular exceptions. Can you mention any particular disability which excites dissatisfaction ? — Where there is a general code of disability, it is difficult to point out the particular parts of that ge- neral code which create most dissatisfaction; the exclusion of Roman Catholics from that general range of office to which men of superior talent, property, and education aspire, ne- cessarily produces amongst them a degree of irritation pro- portioned to their wealth and intelligence, and which must therefore go on increasing in proportion as their wealth and intelligence increase ; thus the powers of property and know- ledge, which, honoured and directed by the State, are calcu- lated to promote public happiness and peace, are so dealt with by the laws of exclusion, as naturally to produce discontent and disorder. The exclusions which go most home to the ge- neral feelings of the people, are those which apply to Parlia- ment and the Bench. Parliament makes, the Bench adminis- ters, the laws of the empire ; the Roman Catholics are excluded from both. This, it is said, is essential to the security of the Protestants ; then, what becomes of the Catholics .'' If Protestants woidd feel insecure, were Catholics mixed with Protestants in Parliament or upon the Bench, what must Ca- tholics feel, when both are filled by Protestants exclusively ? The fact is, that they consider these exclusions as rendering Parliament and the Bench hostile to them, and therefore they place confidence in neither. Did you ever find it a matter of complaint that they were obliged to take what are called the Qualifying Oaths, in all matters concerning the purchase and devising of landed pro- perty? — I have not heard that made much matter of com- plaint ; but it must be matter of disgust to any Roman Ca- tholic ; and I really should think it must be to any educated Protestant, to stand in a court of justice and hear the oaths or declaration which are administered to Protestants, as qualifi- cations for oflice. I would state to the Committee, if they would allow me to do so, what happened to me, when in the course of the year before last I was appointed to the. office I A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 121 now hold in Ireland ; I had some appointments to make to offices under me ; the persons I appointed were Protestants ; they went to qualify with me; I had to qualify first, because out of my right theirs was derived ; I qualified, by taking an oath, which commenced with a declaration that I professed the Roman Catholic religion ; I abjured all those doctrines which have been erroneously imputed to that religion ; and having concluded, the persons who acted under my authority, who derived their offices from my grant, who existed as officers at my will, were obliged to swear that I was an idolater ; were obliged to commence their qualification by declaring that the religion professed by the person from whom they derived their appointments was superstitious and idolatrous. These tests are calculated to excite very unfortunate feelings ; they pro- duce in those who take them a feeling of contempt for those who are called idolaters, and a feeling in those who are called idolaters, that they are unjustly and cruelly treated. Is it not a matter of complaint, the tenets that Catholics are obliged to abjure in the oaths they take ? — I have heard it complained of; but candour obliges me to say, that there is in history proof that among some Roman Catholics some very obnoxious tenets were formerly held ; such as the de- posing power; and in my humble judgment, a Roman Catho- lic ought not to feel offended, if he be called upon to disclaim doctrines or positions which strike at the civil independence of the state ; and which, though they never formed any part of the Roman Catholic faith, were yet at one time taught by au- thorities in the Roman Catholic church ; but these doctrines are now universally exploded in these countries ; and I should cer- tainly wish to see one simple oath of allegiance established for all the King's subjects, Protestant and Roman Catholic. I must add, that I never heard a Roman Catholic object to that part of the oath prescribed by the Act of 1793, by which the Roman Catholic pledges himself to support the Protestant government, and solemnly disclaims any intention of attempt- ing to substitute a Catholic for the Protestant establishment. Do not Catholics experience great inconvenience, and have they not sometimes experienced serious injury, from the man- ner in whicli they are required to take those oaths, and from the difficulty of preserving the evidence of having taken them? — I have heard that stated as matter of complaint, but I am not aware of any practical injury arising from the state of the law in that respect. Are they not obliged to take them at sessions or courts of justice .'^ — You are obliged, when you are appointed to oflice, J22 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ,. EXAMINED. to take the qualifying oaths within a certain time before cer- tain courts. The affidavits are made matter of record ?— The oaths which you take are not affidavits, they are tests which you subscribe, and which remain on record. Are not those records kept, particularly in the country, in a very negligent manner ? — I cannot state that ; I am not aware of the care given to those records. Can you give the Committee any information with regard, to the proportion which the Catholic population bears to the Protestant? — I cannot of my own knowledge; any opinion which I may have upon that subject is formed, in some degree, with reference to the returns lately made to the Commis- sioners of Education ; returns, however, which do not afford any thing like certain data, with respect to the proportion which the uneducated part of the Roman Catholic population bears to the educated. In general, from the information you have acquired, do you feel any reason to doubt the accuracy of the common mode of assuming the proportion that the Catholics bear to Protest- ants, to be in the ratio of six to one? — I must confess I am rather disposed to doubt that ; I should think not six, perhaps five ; but I speak very loosely. The Committee would, I sup- pose, wish to have opinions entitled to carry some degree of authority with them, which mine really are not, upon that subject. Have you turned your attention to the circumstances which exist with regard to the management of landed property in Ireland? — My duties as Chief Remembrancer of Ireland re- quire me in some degree, in rather an extensive degree, to attend to the management of landed property ; all the estates which are under the control of the court of exchequer through receivers, are under my immediate direction ; all sales which take place, take place under my direction ; in that way I have some opportunities of seeing what the state of landed property is, the value of it, how managed, how rents are collected, and so forth. What appears to you to be the case, with regard to the rate of rent that has been required, as to its being a proper rate or an excessive rate ?— Perhaps I should answer that question best, by stating one or two facts ; since my appointment to office in Ireland, I have anxiously attended to the state of the receiver's accounts ; I found when I was appointed those ac- counts very much in arrear, and when I got in the accounts I found the rents very much in arrear ; upon inquiry it appeared A. R. BLAKE, ESQ,. EXAMINED. 123 to me,, that the arrears were generally occasioned by the very high rate at which land had been let, and in consequence of that, I recommended in the case of lands in the hands of the court, where the persons to whom those lands belonged were persons for whom the court had a right to act, as infants and persons of that description, or where general consents could be obtained, that the state of the property should be examined, that inquiry should be made as to the rate at which the lands were let, and where it was found that the land was let very high, that abatements should be made, and that those abate- ments should be retrospective — so far as it should appear upon inquiry, that the rents which had been reserved were for the past period beyond those which the tenants could fairly pay ; that recommendation has been acted upon very much, and the result is, that the rents having been reduced, the lands are now let on what appear to be fair and reasonable terms, such terms as enable the tenant to pay to his landlord a fair rent for the enjoyment of the land, and enable himself to live by it ; these rents are paid pretty regularly. The tenants have also been relieved from the old arrear, so far as it appeared to have been produced by their holding at an exorbitant rent ; this has produced a very good etfect ; the arrears lay as an incumbrance upon them, pressing them down, and dis- couraging them altogether; since they have been relieved from it they have become more active, their energies have revived, and their rents are paid. Have many instances come before you of severity of con- duct, in enforcing the payment of rent, by distress or other- wise ? — I have found generally, I think, that distress for rent is more common in Ireland than in England ; I think it is a rare thing in England to see cattle in pound for rent, but in travelling through Ireland you scarcely see a pound without some wretched horses, or cows, or sheep in it, which you are told have been put there for rent. I think a pound thus filled one of the most distressing objects that strikes the eye in Ire- land. Have instances come before you of the sub-letting of land to any great extent ? — Yes. Do you find that to be at all a general practice ? — Very ge- neral, and as mischievous as it is general. In what way do you consider it to be mischievous ? — I do not think that the man who sub-lets, has that sort of feeling towards the persons to whom he lets, that the proprietors of the land would have; at least that the proprietor of the land in England would have. I know that, from my own experience 124 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. of the manner in which landed property is managed in this country. Is not that system of sub-letting carried on in succession, from one sub-tenant to another sub-tenant, in many cases in a long series? — I have known, I think, two or three persons in- tervene, between the owner of the land and the occupier of the soil. Do you know whether this practice is carried on with the consent of the landlords ? — I believe the contrary, if by the question is meant the head landlords ; and it has occurred to me, that it is a subject that calls for legislative interference. What difficulty have landlords encountered in preventing it? — Unless landlords introduce covenants into the leases which they grant, to prevent sub-letting, they cannot prevent it ; and as it is a principle of the law of England to favour commerce, if you introduce a covenant against under-letting or assignment, and you once permit an assignment or an un- der-letting, the covenant is gone for ever, even though you should expressly restrict the waver to the particular case. Do you mean, that if you wave it in the case of A. the waver will hold good in the case of B. ? — Yes; I will put a case: suppose I grant a lease to A., with a proviso in it, that A. shall not assign without my leave; A. assigns to B., and I consent to that ; B. may go on assigning afterwards, without my consent. Does not receiving of rent from a sub-tenant deprive you of every remedy that you may have attempted to secure by covenant ? — It may, or it may not. In cases where landlords have done no act to wave their right, and have appealed to courts of justice to enforce their covenant, have they not met with great difficulties in doing so P — I can only speak to that point, with reference to my practice when at the bar, and my practice at the bar was not of that description that could bi'ing me much acquainted with cases of the character alluded to ; but I conceive a landlord must always find difficulties, so long as the principle and po- licy of the law be in favour of assignment. Whatever the opi- nion of a court may be, as to the expediency of it, they are bound by the policy as settled by decisions ; it has very fre- quently occurred to me, that there is in the English statute book, a statute which is very familiar to every lawyer, the sta- tute of Quia emptores, a principle which might be acted upon and extended to Ireland, so as to correct this mischief; the statute of Quia emjjtores was passed in England, for the pur- pose of preventing sub-infcudation of manors, that sub-infeu- A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 125 elation of manors pi'oducing in England the mischief which sub-letting now produces in Ireland. Is it your opinion, derived either from your own experience, or the information you possess, that a landlord would expe- rience very great difficulty in devising covenants, upon the ef- ficiency of v/hich he could rely, for the purpose of preventing sub-letting? — I think he would find difficulties, creating al- most an impossibility. Are you of opinion that the taking away the power, of dis- tress from the middle-man, and giving it only to the head landlord, would answer any beneficial object? — I think it would, because it would relieve the unfortunate occupier from double or treble distresses ; but there is a practice which pre- vails very much in letting property in London for building, Avhich if it were made an universal practice by law in Ireland, would I think, in a great degree, cure the evil that I have al- luded to, and which is alluded to in the question put to me. In London, Vv'here a person possessed of any very extensive property makes a lease to a builder, he agrees with the builder to join with him in making sub-leases, so that the lessees shall be his tenants, and not the tenants of the builder ; thus the rent which originally extended over five thousand feet, becomes apportioned among houses, covering fifteen feet, twenty feet, forty feet, and so on, and the tenant getting a lease to which the head landlord is a party at an apportioned rent, paying that rent whether to the head landlord or to the builder, ac- cording to the reservation in his lease, is secure : I think that would afford a principle for legislation as to Ireland ; I mean, that all sub-letting should be prohibited, unless the landlord be a party. Do the modes come under your knowledge, which are most resorted to by landlords in Ireland, for preventing sub-let- ting? — I cannot speak to that question ; I am not acquainted with the modes they have resorted to ; I suppose covenants. Has it come under your knowledge, that it is ever the prac- tice to let at a certain rent, that rent not being intended to be received, and a covenant being entered into on the part of the landlord, not to take that rent in the event of the tenant not sub-letting ? — I have heard of such attempts to prevent sub- letting, but I should think the attempt would be very likely to fail ; very nice questions of law or of equity would arise upon it. There might be a question, whether the difi^erence of rent should be considered in the nature of a penalty, and if it is to be considered in the nature of a penalty, whether an act done with a different intent might not nevertheless for ever wave it. 126 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED, You saji that you never heard that oath complained of, by which persons of the Roman Catholic persuasion are required to disclaim using any privilege they obtain to the injury of the established religion of the state? — Never. You have, as being of an old Roman Catholic family in Ire- land, had much opportunity of intercourse M^ith the body of the Roman Catholics ; have you had opportunities of very great communication with the Roman Catholic clergy in Ire- land? — I have. Have you had opportunities of speaking to them on sub- jects connected with their religion, as it affects the State?-— Frequently. Upon the entire of your communication with the clergy, and with the laity of the Roman Catholic body, have you any rea- son to suspect that there is any wish or object on their part, hostile to the Protestant establishment of the country? — I never found amongst the Roman Catholics, any feeling of hostility to the establishment, so far as civil rights were con- cerned ; except a notion that the property of the church was public property, and was more than the church ought to pos- sess ; that feeling I have perceived amongst some Roman Ca- tholics, but not more than amongst Protestants. Did you ever perceive any feeling or disposition to have transferred to their own body the property of the established church? — Whether the clergy, as men operated upon by the natural feelings of men, would wish it, I cannot state, other- wise than by conjecture ; as to the laity, I believe they would deprecate it very much ; I have heard the clergy themselves declare that they would not wish it, and I dare say when they said so, they spoke what they felt and thought at the moment ; but if the offer was made to them, one would not answer for its being refused. Have you any means of forming a judgment, whether the Roman Catholic clergy would be pleased, if they were not sup- posed to be surrendering the principles of the laity, to accept a provision from the State? — My opinion certainly is, that ac- companied with the settlement of the Roman Catholic ques- tion, and so regulated as not to prejudice their independence, they would receive a provision from the State with gratitude ; that is the opinion which I have formed from conversations with them, particularly with the superior clergy ; and my own opinion is, that it is a thing which, in the event of a set- tlement of the Catholic (question, would be most desirable. Do you think such a provision being made for them would be attended with any beneficial effect, in attaching the lower class of people to the state and government of the country? — A. R. BLAKE, ESQ,. EXAMINED. 127 I think it would produce a good feeling amongst them ; it would make them understand, that their church was not looked upon with any hostile feeling, but the contrary ; I think it would also be a very great relief to them, because I be- lieve that the dues which are collected from the lower class of people by the Roman Catholic clergy are felt very heavily; I do not mean to censure the Roman Catholic clergy for col- lecting those dues, they are their only means of subsistence ; but I believe the payment of them is often felt very severely by the lower orders. The members of the Committee may re- collect what passed in the county of Gal way, when the ribbon system spread so much there ; they will probably recollect, that one of the grievances complained of was the amount of the dues paid to the Roman Catholic clergy ; they were com- plained of as much as, or at least in common with the tithes. Do you think, that the settlement of what you call the Ro- man Catholic question, and the making a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy, such as they would be willing to ac- cept of, would, or not, be calculated to give additional secu- rity to the Protestant establishment in Ireland? — I think that settlement, upon wise and sound principles, would be above all others a measure calculated to give strength to the establish- ment, and repose to the country ; I think the present state of the law is obviously erroneous ; it is calculated not to secure, but to endanger the establishment, it creates bad feelings, and affords no security against them. The Act of 1793 took things at the wrong end ; it elevated the lower orders, and left the higher in a state of depression. The security of the Protest- ants in Ireland is in the strength of property against num- bers ; what you have done is to grant to the Roman Catholics a privilege in which number tells against property, and to withhold a privilege in which property tells against number ; you allow the lowest orders of the people to vote, and you do not allow the higher orders to sit. I certainly should consider, in the settlement of the Catholic question, if ever it is to be settled, that the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise in counties ought to be reviewed and altered. Do you think that a raising of the qualification that should entitle the freeholder to vote, would be calculated to meet the mischief you have adverted to ? — I think it would in a very great degree ; though I am a Roman Catholic, I speak with a sincere desire, that whenever the Catholic question is settled, the rights of the established church should be secured ; and I think they would be secured in proportion as you increased the political power of property, converted public discontent 128 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. into satisfaction, and engaged the Catholics in the service of the State, by adequate honours and rewards. This would attract all the hopes and desires of the Catholics to the State, and would counteract any bias they might have against the Church, which is connected with the State by an indissoluble union, and must therefore stand or fall with it. Do you think that raising the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise, if it was accompanied with the set- tlement of the great question you allude to, would be very unpopular amongst the body of Roman Catholics ? — My opi- nion is that it would not ; it is possible that against that, as against any thing else, a cry for a moment could be raised, but I do not think that any permanent feeling of discontent w^ould be produced by it. Have you in your observations as to the state of the country in Ireland, from what you have yourself seen and learned in communication with others, had any reason to think that the want of a respectable yeomanry is amongt the evils that that country labours under ? — I think it is one main cause of the evils that the country labours under ; and my notion in recom- mending a change in the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise, is materially influenced by the hope, that it would induce gentlemen who wish to have political influ- ence in Ireland, instead of parcelling out their land amongst a mob of wretched cottiers, to raise up and encourage the growth of a respectable yeomanry in the country. Are you of opinion that any mischief which might grow from any diminution of the authority of the landlord, that might arise from the improved description of tenantry and the independence of the tenantry that would be produced by such a measure, would be completely counterbalanced by the benefit that would arise from the establishment of such an independent body in the country ? — I think it would, because the power which would exist would be a power to be exercised by persons having something of a stake in the country, which the mere forty-shilling freeholders have not. Are you of opinion that it would take them from their sub- jection to the interference of the clergy, and in the next place, give them, as owners of property in the country, an inde- pendent personal interest ? — My notion is, that if the Catho- lic question were settled, and the freehold qualification raised, the Roman Catholic clergy would no longer be tempted to ex- ercise political power at elections ; or if they were disposed to do so, that they would not have a body upon which they could act as at present, and that it would induce those gen- A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 129 tlemen who wish to have political power through freeholders, to create freeholders of a respectable class, who would be the means of preserving order in the country. Do you think that such an arrangement would be injurious to those fair interests which the Roman Catholics are en- titled to have in the country ? — My notion is, that the Roman Catholics ought not to have an interest according to their number, but according to their property ; under that impres- sion I think that it would not injure any power or influence which they ought fairly to have in the State ; coupled, how- ever, with measures which would place them in what I con- ceive to be the situation and estimation in which their pro- perty ought to place them. From the nature of your view of the state of Ireland, par- ticularly of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, if this Roman Catholic measure were conceded, and were accompanied by a respectable provision for their clergy, and by this measure that has just been mentioned of raising the qualification of freeholders ; and if the laws in that amended state were fairly and justly applied, so as to give the Roman Catholics a rea- sonable share of political power and influence in proportion to their property and their claims, do you believe that we should have a reasonable prospect of peace and tranquillity being restored to that country ? — I certainly think we should, and for this reason ; I do not conceive there is any political curse upon Ireland that is to prevent Ireland from being as happy and peaceable as other countries, if instead of attempt- ing to fit the people to the Constitution, the Constitution be fitted to the people. What eff*ect would such a state of things described in the last question, have upon the connexion between Ireland and Great Britain ? — If I did not think that it would have the eflfect of confirming that connexion, and rendering it, I hope, eternal, I would myself, though a Roman Catholic, be against it ; because I do think that the Roman Catholics, in their pre- sent state of connexion with England, are much happier and much better off'than they could ever be separated from England, although they should become the ascendant body, in all re- spects, in Ireland ; they derive advantages from their con- nexion with England, which Ireland could never afford them in a separate state. If a provision were made for the Roman Catholic clergy by the State, is it your opinion, that the influence of the priest- hood over their flocks would be thereby materially dimi- nished ? — I do not think any wholesome influence that the priest has over his flock would be diminished. 130 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. Have the Catholic clergy at present any other provision than that which they derive from the voluntary payments of their flocks ? — None. The fee upon marriage is one of their principal resources ? —It is. It is usually that for which the highest price is paid ? — I understand so. In your opinion, has that circumstance any influence in pro- ducing early and improvident marriages ? — There one must speak again with reference to the nature of man ; if the priest gains by early marriages, there is nothing more likely to en- courage them. Is it not the opinion that such is the effect of it ? — I have heard it stated ; I have heard the priests assert the con- trary. Are you acquainted with the manner in which freehold votes are very generally made throughout Ireland now ; namely, that the freeholds are granted by the landlord, and that the freehold leases are, in point of fact, retained always in the possession of the landlord, and produced only at the time when there is a registry, or when there may be occasion to produce them ? — I was not aware of the fact. You have no reason to believe that that practice has ever prevailed ? — I am not aware of it ; it may prevail, without my knowing any thing about it. Does your experience enable you to say, whether it has been the usage for the Catholic freeholders generally to vote at elections according to the wish of their Protestant landlord ? — Formerly, I believe it used ; latterly, religious feelings, I am told, frequently carry the tenant away from the landlord, particularly through the activity of the clergy, who are sti- mulated by the increasing eagerness of the laity for emanci- pation. Do you believe that, in consequence of the diffusion of knowledge amongst the lower orders of Catholics, the exer- cise of a free independent opinion is more likely to prevail, than upon former occasions ? — I think there is, every day, more knowledge and more property spreading through the Ca- tholics, and of course, in proportion as it does so, a more independent feeling will arise among them, and a keener sense of the political inferiority in which they at present stand ; but with respect to that description of tenantry which has been induced to vote against, their landlords, I should not be in- clined to think that it was very much from a feeling of inde- pendence of the landlord ; I should rather attribute it to a disposition to oppose those whom they consider hostile to A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 131 their reiigion, a disposition which the clergy, of course, have the best means of exciting and calling into play. Is it your opinion, that the existence of the laws, as they now affect the Roman Catholics of Ireland, has a tendency to produce a peculiar degree of union amongst that class as Roman Catholics ? — I have no doubt of it ; they are bound together by the common sense of a common grievance. Do you not conceive, in consequence of the existence of that union, if it should be acted upon at elections generally, and more especially in counties, the result of it must be, to give a decisive influence to the Catholic body, as things now stand in the counties ? — I think it would give to the Catholic body a degree of influence beyond what the just weight of their pro- perty would otherwise entitle them to ; it enables active Ca* tholics, clergy and laity, to alienate the lower orders from their landlords, and through their numbers to carry all before them, driving Protestant property, when opposed to them, utterly out of the field. Is it your opinion, then, that the influence of religion, and the priest, would be stronger than the influence of the Pro- testant landlord ? — Speaking from facts, I should say, yes. I have heard of acts of interference at the Dublin election, the Leitrim election, and the Sligo election, and other places. Have you, in your knowledge, ever met with any objection being taken to the purchase of land, on account of the title being derived from forfeiture ? — Never. Have you known of much property being invested by Roman Catholics in the purchase of landed estates in Ireland ? — I left my native county, the county of Galway, about twenty years ago ; I returned to it in the last year ; I found there a new race of landed proprietors, principally Roman Catholics ; the Roman Catholics are persons very much engaged in com- merce ; they have also, within the last thirty years, entered very much into professions. They make money in commerce and pro- fessions, that money settles into land, and thus the landed interest of the Roman Catholics is increasing to a great extent. Do you know whether any of the landed estates so pur- chased, were lands that had been forfeited, and the owners of which, who have sold to Catholics had become possessed of them, in consequence of the forfeiture of the original proprie- tor ? — A great deal of it must, when it is considered to what extent forfeitures took place in Ireland ; I should say of my own family, we forfeited; we lost considerable property; we have since purchased other property, which we will not give up in a vain pursuit of the old. . K 2 132 A, R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. Is the Catholic landed interest very much interested in the present settlement of property in Ireland ? — To the extent of the interest which the Catholics have in the land, they are of course equally interested in preserving property, with the Protestants. Besides purchases of estates, has not a great deal of Ca- tholic money been lent on mortgages ? — A great deal ; persons of that description in Ireland, as well as in England, are now seeking for good mortgages. Are not the Catholic tenantry very much interested in the existing leases? — In proportion to the interest which they have under their leases. When you speak of raising the qualification of electors, do you, in your idea, limit it only to freehold leases; or would you say, that in a county, the qualification of a man having the fee of his forty-shillings freehold, should be raised also? — I confine myself entirely to persons who derive under leases ; if a man had the ownership of property, I should say he ought to be permitted to vote, because he is the proprietor, the leaseholder is not ; and I take that to be one of the great distinctions between the forty-shilling freeholders in England and in Ireland ; in England, a forty-shilling freeholder in general has a property of his own to that extent ; in Ireland, it is quite the contrary. Supposing a lessor pays to his landlord a rent of five pounds a-year, ho ought to be able to get out of that property, a rent of seven pounds a-year, in order to give him a forty- hilling interest in it ? — Certainly. Do you believe that that is generally the case with respect to the lower class of freeholders ? — I believe quite the con- trary. In general they pay what is originally a rack rent for the land, they then build mud huts upon it, and if they make out of the land a profit of forty shillings a-year, a profit pro- duced by the sweat of their brow, they reconcile to themselves to swear that they have an interest in it to the extent of forty shillings a-year, whereas the gain is produced not through an interest in the land, but through their labour. So that in point of fact, when their interest comes to be examined by this test, it is not an interest bona fide of forty shillings a-year ? — Quite the contrary ; I referred in a former part of my evidence, to cases that were before me, upjii receivers' accounts in Ireland ; I found frequently, that a greai mass of tenants, who were in arrear in consequence of holdi.12; at exorbitant rents, had sworn to forty-shilling freeholds. Have you ever considered what amount of qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise vv^ould suit the present A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 133 state of Ireland ? — I am speaking entirely with reference to leaseholders ; and speaking with regard to leaseholders, I may perhaps be considered too aristocratical in my notion, but I should say the qualification ought to be, to the extent of twenty pounds a-year ; having reference to another object which I mentioned in a former part of my evidence, that of creating, if possible, in Ireland, a respectable yeomanry, and preventing the sub-division of land ; but I have thought more of the principle than of a standard for regulating it. Do you think, generally speaking, that the forty-shilling freeholders exercise any free choice at elections ? — My opinion is, that they have none. How do you think they are controlled.? — I believe they are controlled either by an absolute landlord, or by the sort of in- terference through religious feelings v/hich I have already mentioned. Can you state to the Committee, the kind of control that is exercised over those forty-shilling freeholders, so as to com- mand their votes ? — I can speak only from hearsay ; the land- lord of course has the pov/er of distress ; the priest or other partisan may act upon their religious feelings or prejudices. Do you believe that those measures, which you have stated as likely to be beneficial with respect to the raising the quali- fication voters, ought not to be considered as completely dependent upon being combined with their complete emanci- pation ; that is, do you conceive that the raising the qualifi- cations, and depriving, of course, the forty-shilling freeholder of his right, could be eflfected without occasioning the most serious discontent, unless it were accompanied with the other measure you have suggested ? — I have already, I think, stated an opinion, which must be considered as an answer in the aflirmative to that question ; at the same time, I should wish to understand, what is meant by emancipation, in the ques- tion now put. If by emancipation, is meant the universal removal of all disabilities, my opinion does not go to that extent ; but it does go to the extent of representation in Par- liament, and admission to the Bench. I do not think, that if representation in Parliament were conceded, and the Bench Avere open, that there would be much objection to some extent of exclusion from political office ; the other exclusions, from Parliament and the Bench, are the exclusions particularly felt. What should you say with respect to corporate offices ? — Corporate oflEices were not in my view particularly ; with regard to corporate offices, there is at present a means of 134 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. relief to Roman Catholics, which is not generally known ; the Crown may exercise a dispensing power in corporations. Have you known it exercised ? — I have not known it exer- cised, and I do not know that the Crown could be well advised now to exercise it ; because a class of statutes must con- stitute a policy calculated to fetter the discretion of the Crown. If the law were to be altered in other respects, so as not to form an exclusion from Parliament and the Bench, would not that affect your opinion as to the propriety of exercising a discretion in corporate offices ? — It certainly would ; there would be no longer existing in the law that policy, or sup- posed policy against the exercise of it, which the present state of the law, I think, creates. Do you consider that it would be sound and good policy to leave at the discretion of the Crown, or of the advisers of the Crown, the exercise of this power, in such corporations as it might think fit, without its taking place at all ? — I did not mean to express any opinion upon that ; I only mention the fact of the law creating a difference between the two cases of offices under the Crown and corporate offices ; I think exclu- sion from corporate offices may be felt, and would be felt as a "very severe grievance ; but if you can produce a beneficial eflfect in any way, I do not think the theory is of so much import- ance. With respect again to Ireland, I believe there is a misapprehension, very general, upon another point ; I believe it is generally understood, that the Test Act is in Ireland repealed ; the sacramental test is not repealed in Ireland ; it is only repealed as to Protestant dissenters ; a circumstance which forms a curious principle in the law. A protestant of the church of Ireland may be ruined unless he receives the sacrament, but a dissenter is safe. The Act of 1782, which relieved the Protestant dissenters from the Test Act, provided only that His Majesty's Protestant dissenting subjects should not be bound by it ; and I apprehend it would be necessary to plead, that you were a Protestant dissenter, if an action was commenced against you, and you wished to have the benefit of the statute. Do you then think the Catholics generally would acquiesce in the proposal of raising the qualification for voting, pro- vided it was accompanied with Catholic emancipation, or with the admission to Parliament and the Bench ? — My belief is, that they would ; a belief founded upon extensive communi- cation with them ; but I speak only of the principle of a rise, not of the extent to which the rise should go. I have not dis- A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 135 cussed the amount' at which the qualification should be fixed with many persons. Do not you think a considerable outcry would be raised in Ireland, if it was proposed to raise the qualification of forty- shilling freeholders ? — If the forty-shilling freeholders were persons of independent property, exercising through their property a free choice, I think it would produce a very serious outcry ; but I do not think they are persons of a description likely to have much feeling upon the subject. Do you apply the observations you have made with regard to forty-shilling freeholds, to forty-shilling freeholders in cities and towns ? — Certainly not, for a very obvious reason ; I speak of those places in which property is the qualification ; if in cities and counties property were the entire qualification, I would have it raised there ; but, if property be not the entire qualification, then the question stands there upon quite different grounds ; if a man who serves an apprenticeship of seven years be entitled to vote without regard to property, there is no reason why the freeholder of forty shillings a-year should not vote also. In point]of fact you mean to limit your observations to coun- ties ? — To counties. Do you know whether in point of fact the description of forty-shilling freeholders who vote in cities or counties, are in point of property the same description of persons who vote as forty-shilling freeholders in counties at large ? — I apprehend quite otherwise. Are they not in many instances merchants and persons of property, who acquire forty-shilling freeholds in order to give them a political right ? — The persons who are forty-shil- ling freeholders in cities, are generally speaking merchants or respectable tradesmen ; they are not paupers, as most of the people who call themselves forty-shilling freeholders in coun- ties are. In case the forty- shilling franchise were to be altered in cities and towns in the same way as you have described in counties at large, would not the practical effect be to throw the return altogether into the hands of the freemen ? — I can- not say that I am sufficiently acquainted with the state of pro- perty in corporate towns to answer that question. Have you ever formed any rough calculation of what num- ber of persons in Ireland, a change of the qualification to twenty pounds would disfranchise? — I have not considered the extent to which it would go ; but I have considered the class to which it would go ; and the more extensive that class, the more necessary in my judgment the change. 136 A. R, BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. From j'our experience, are you able to say whether the feel- ing of the great body of the lower orders of the people is strong- and keen upon the subject of what is generally called the Catholic question ? — I believe it to be so ; I do not think I ever spoke to a Roman Catholic, high or low, that did not be- tray something like irritation upon the subject. Do you think that feeling begets any want of confidence in the administration of justice in any of its departments, parti- cularly amongst the magistrates? — I am acquainted only with the superior courts of Ireland ; I may have a little feeling upon the subject, as belonging to one of them, but I am con- scientiously satisfied that they administer justice as purely and honestly as any courts upon the face of the earth. If I were to say what influence I think the Catholic disqualifications have upon them, I should say it was to turn their feelings in a direction favourable to the Roman Catholics ; the lower or- ders however think the contrary ; they think that the Judges being all Protestants, have a leaning against the Roman Ca- tholics ; they consider the exclusion of the Roman Catholics unfair ; that the object of it is to give the Protestants an un- due advantage in the distribution of justice. You are speaking of the higher courts ? — Yes, with which alone I am really acquainted. Can you state what effect the plan of raising the qualifica- tion would have upon the Protestant interest of the country ? I think the Protestants constitute, to a very considerable ex- tent, the landed proprietory interest of Ireland ; and there- fore, in proportion as you increase the power of the pro- prietory interest, and diminish the power of mere numbers without property, you strengthen the Protestant interest. At present the Protestants insist upon the ascendency, the Ro- man Catholics seek equality ; this equality, to the extent of their property, they ought to have, but no farther ; if equality to this extent were established, it would, I think, satisfy the Roman Catholics, and certainly would not prejudice the Pro- testants ; it would take from the Catholic multitude the vast political power which they now possess, and would open to the Catholic gentry the capacity of enjoying another species of political power which they do not now possess, the capacity of sitting in Parliament, a capacity however from which they could only derive any benefit through the will of the property, Protestant and Catholic, of the country. This would not shake the true lep:itimate ascendency which belongs to the Protestants, in proportion as they form the preponderating proprietory interest of the country ; on the contrary, it would secure that ascendency on a rock, upon the genuine sound A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 137 principle of the British constitution, which makes property the basis of all political power and ascendency in the state ; while the Protestants claim ascendency on other ground, the Catholics will consider it hostile, and oppose it; but once put on its true ground, the hostile character would cease, Protest- ants and Roman Catholics might then regard each other as fellow-citizens, and uniting as such, render their common country happy and prosperous. Can you state whether the subject is viewed in that way, at present, by the Protestant proprietory of the country? — It would not be right for me to mention names ; but I have cer- tainly conversed with gentlemen in Ireland, who I know have been adverse to what are called the Catholic claims, who told me they would be favourable to a settlement upon that prin- ciple. The twenty pounds freeholder would be in a situation to exercise his franchise, without any regard to his landlord ? — I should rather think the contrary; I think there must be a connexion between the landlord and the tenant at all times, and that the tenant would be inclined, though not from the same slavish feeling as at present, still to follow his land- lord's interest ; I have found that to be very much the case in England. You mean, that it would be a more honourable feeling ? — It would be a more honourable feeling; indeed I should say that a twenty pound freeholder would feel it more his interest to go with his landlord, than the mere wretched forty-shilling freeholder, for he has an interest to secure which the other has not. You have stated in a former part of your examination, that under the present state of the law, there is an impossibility in framing a covenant by which the landlord can prevent alienation? — There is a difficulty approaching to an impos- sibility. In looking to an alteration of the law, by way of giving the landlords an efficient control over their property, can j'ou sug- gest any regulations which would be calculated to meet that object ? — I already alluded to the principle of the statute of Quia onpt ores ; I should think that regulations might be framed to give effect to that principle; for instance, if it were provided by law, that no person should underlet without the consent of the landlord, that the landlord should be a party to every lease, or to every sub-lease or sub-contract, and that the tenant paying a rent according to the reservation in that sub-lease or sub-contract, should be free and discharged from all liability; you would in that way, I think, in a great 138 A. Ft. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. degree prevent sub-letting, because the landlord would not be very willing to give his consent to sub-letting in such cases ; and on the other hand, you would prevent one of the present mischiefs of it, because the sub-tenant would no longer be subject to those double and treble distresses. Do you mean that it should be provided by law, that there should be no sub-letting, without a special consent to sub-let? — Without the landlord being a party to the instrument by which the land was sub-let. And that all sub-letting should be ineffective, unless the head landlord was a party to it? — That all sub-letting should be ineffective, unless the head landlord was a party to it ; and I would go further, and provide that the person attempting to sub-let otherwise, should be without any remedy for the reco- very of his rent; this, I think, would be an effectual means of preventing it. How would you have the power of recovering the rent in a sub-lease ? — That rent being paid according to the redendum, the tenant should be freed and discharged. Supposing the rent is not paid according to the redendum, it forms part of the landlord's rent, as well as part of the mesne tenant's rent ; would you give a power of distress both to the landlord and the mesne tenant ? — No ; only to the person to whom the rent was made payable. Would not the landlord be unwilling to join in that ? — I think he would ; and I think so much the better. That would go to prevent sub-letting ? — ^To a certain de- gree. It constantly occurs in London ; the granting of leases, to which the head landlord is a party, in which the rent is re- served either to him or the middle man, and by which the te- nant paying the rent, is completely discharged. Then the landlord, in the event of his becoming a party to such a lease, would have no remedy against his immediate te- nant ; except his having made a contract with him to that amount, he would have no power of distress ? — He would have no power of distress as against that part of the land granted to the under-tenant, unless to the extent of any rent reserved by that under-lease to him ; if rent is reserved to the head landlord, it might be distrained for by the head landlord ; if not reserved to the head landlord, but to the middle man, it might be distrained for by the middle man. I am spearking very loosely upon these subjects, merely answering at the moment. Do the Committee understand you rightly to say, that the existence of Roman Catholic disqualification is a common grievance, which enables the priests to exercise an inlluenco A. R. BLAKE, ESQ,. EXAMINED. 139 at an election? — It creates a feelings of discontent, of a reli- gious nature, through which feeling the priest is enabled po- werfully to act at elections, he is enabled to say to them, for instance, this man is against your religion, this man is for your religion ; lam told, he has said so. You conceive, that by removing the Roman Catholic dis- qualification, you would deprive the priest of that power ? — I do not think I should, entirely ; I should lessen the tempta- tion to the exercise of it, and I should diminish the power also, by setting at rest the Catholic question, and raising the qualification from 40^. to 20/. a year, or to such sum at least as would raise the class of freeholders entitled to vote, so as to render them, in some degree, persons of intelligence and property, likely to have a will of their own. Would not the exclusion of all freeholders under 20/. a year, exclude a great number of persons who have considerable capital on their farms ? — I do not think it would. The Committee understand you to state, that in cases in which persons swear to 40.5'. freeholds, they have, in many instances, little interest, if any, in the lands ; do not you con- ceive that even in the case of 20/. freeholds, persons might swear to those freeholds, w^ho had a very inferior interest in the lands than that.^ — I do not think they would ; I think common decency and shame, and the obvious means of instant detection, would operate to prevent it ; a man, who comes to swear to 20/. must have some property in his hands. A man in Ireland, who would have an interest of 20/. is of a totally different class from the 40^. freeholder ? — Yes. Would it not, in your apprehension, exclude in towns a con- siderable number of persons who are householders, who have not an interest above the rent they pay for their houses, to the amount of 20/. ? — I have already stated that I do not mean my observation to apply to tov/ns. The freehold runs in virtue of residing in a house ; w^ould it not exclude in towns a very large proportion of persons, who derive their freeholds from residing in those houses alone, without any regard to land ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the state of towns to speak upon this subject ; 1 had in my mind the general appearance of the 40^. freeholders, which is the appearance of a rabble. There may be persons of re- spectability having only 40-^. freeholds ; there is no general rule without particular exceptions ; but I think the injury which they might sustain would be as nothing, compared with the benefit the state would sustain from the general regu- lation. You are not aware that a very large proportion of 405. free- 140 A. n. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. holders in towns, do derive their freeholds in virtue of holding houses in towns, without having land ? — No. Do you apply the 20/. qualification to the rent that the free- holder pays, or to the profit that he makes ? — I mean that whatever rent he may pay, to whatever extent he may pay it, he should be able to swear that he has an interest beyond that rent, to the amount of 20/. a year ; that if he pays 500/. a year, the property should be worth 520/. Would not that have the effect of excluding a very large number of persons, possessed of considerable capital, com- pared to the capital of those who now vote ? — I should appre- hend not, because a capitalist taking land in Ireland, with a view to improvement, would certainly, if he acted to any ex- tent, soon gain an interest in it through improvement, to the amount of 20/. a year. Do you not conceive that the raising of the franchise to 20/. would disqualify, in towns and cities, a large proportion of the out-freeholders, and would create great discontent and disturbance in those towns ? — When one is considering any proposed measure, one is not be governed by the evils which may be in your way, according to a particular view of it ; you must look to the right and to the left ; you must judge by comparison, weighing advantages against advantages, and disadvantages against disadvantages ; and I think the satis- faction to be produced by the measure in question would be much greater, and much more important, than any dissatis- faction that would be produced by it. Are you not aware that a great number of 40s. freeholders, who exercise the right of franchise in Ireland, are not of so respectable a class as voters from towns ? — I consider the mass to be mere rabble. Has not the effect of the Act of the year 1793 very much tended to induce the landlords to split their land into very small portions ? — I apprehend, inasmuch as it enabled Ro- man Catholics to vote at elections, that it has induced land- lords to make Roman Catholic freeholders ; and as the Roman Catholics are the most numerous body, they are enabled to manufacture freeholders to a much greater extent, under the operation of that Act, than they could before, and conse- quently to split their land. If the elective franchise was confined to freeholders of 20/. a year, would not that have a great effect in consolidating the land? — I think it would, and that that would be one of the benefits that would result from it. Might not it have the effect of turning adrift a vast num- ber of people, who now have considerable interest in the A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 141 land? — The persons who now have an interest in the land would not, so far as their interest in the land goes, be af- fected by such Act; it might prevent landlords from creating new freeholders ; it would not enable the landlord to turn the present freeholders out. Are you aware of the state of property, and sub-division of property, upon collegiate and bishops' lands, where no freeholds can be created ? — No, I am not. Daniel O'Connell, Esquire, called in ; and Examined. Have you had opportunities of becoming acquainted with the condition of the lov/er orders of the people of Ireland, in an extensive district of that country ? — I may venture to say, that I have had many, and long. Have you observed any very great increase of numbers in the districts with which you are acquainted 1 — Very great ; I know many instances, in the remoter parts particularly ; for example, I know of farms upon which I remember but two dwellings, I speak of two farms that I have in my mind at this moment, upon which there are at present, 1 believe, nearly a hundred families. Can you inform the Comm.ittee, about what period the great increase of numbers commenced ? — No, because it has been increasing as long as I recollect ; I was out of Ireland from the year 1789 till 1795, between France and England. Was there any great progressive increase of population throughout the early part of the last century in Ireland, up to the period of 1789 ? — 'That I only know as matter of history. Can you state to the Committee any circumstances, that you consider as causes of the modern and very great increase of the population ? — Perhaps it is prejudice, but we have been apt to attribute it to the relaxation of the penal code in 1778, which, for the first time since the reign of Queen Anne, en- abled the Roman Catholics to take leases, and have tenures, and thereby fix them more to tlie soil, allowing the produc- tive qualities of Irish soil to come i-ito operation ; and as I consider it to be capable of feeding four times the number of its present inhabitants, I think that the law, allowing the people to become holders of the soil, must necessarily have had the effect of increasing the population. What, under your observation, is the state of the lower orders in respect to their modes of living? — The state of the lower orders, in my observation, is such, that it is astonish- ing to me how they preserve health, and above all, how they 142 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. preserve cheerfulness, under the total privation of any thing like comfort, and the existence of a state of things that the inferior animals vi^ould scarcely endure, and which they do not endure in this country. Is that state of circumstances of the people general through- out the part you are acquainted with ? — It is general in the labouring classes throughout a great deal of the part I am acquainted with ; it is varied by local circumstances in parti- cular districts, for example, the facilities of procuring firing, change very much the comfort of the Irish peasant ; in the richer districts of Tipperary and Limerick, the peasant is a most miserably circumstanced creature, he wants firing, and frequently is at a distance from water, in the mountain dis- tricts particularly ; in the remoter one of Kerry and Cork there is water in great abundance, and he can have firing with great facility, and that adds to his comfort much, and to the duration of human life also. What particular parts of Ireland do you speak of ? — The parts of Ireland that I am best acquainted with, are the coun- ties of Clare, Limerick, Kerry, and Cork ; I have gone that circuit for many years ; I have some property extensive in itself, but inconsiderable comparatively in value, in the county of Kerry, and I am well acquainted with those counties. What is the general state of the habitations of the lower class ? — It is impossible, I think, (I express myself strongly,) it would be extremely difficult to have any thing worse ; the houses are not even called houses, and they ought not to be ; they are called cabins, they are built of mud, and covered with thatch partly, and partly with a surface which they call scraws, and any continuance of rain necessarily comes in. I have ob- served at night, however, that there is this advantage in their being built so there, that where they have firing the entire house warms, and it is like a stove, and it produces almost the effect of a vapour bath upon the inhabitants. What sort of furniture have they in their houses ? — Nothing that can deserve the name of furniture ; it is a luxury to have a box to put any thing into ; it is a luxury to have what they call a dresser for laying a plate upon, or any thing of that kind: they may have, they generally have little beyond an iron cast metal-pot, a milk tub which they call a keeler, over which they put a wicker basket, in order to throw the pota- toes, water and all, into the basket that the water should run into this keeler ; that is frequently the extent of their fur- niture. With regard to their bedding, what does that consist of ?— - Nothing but straw and very few blankets in the mountain dis- DANIEL 0'C0NNEL[,, ESQ. EXAMINED. 14-3 triets ; by the sea they are better off and more comfortable, they fish occasionally. Are they without bedsteads ? — In general without bedsteads ; the entire family sleep in the same compartment ; they call it a room ; there is some division between it and the part where the fire is ; they separate the sexes by very slight partitions, and yet I do not believe, and indeed I am convinced, that that species of promiscuous lying amongst each other, does not induce the immorality which one would expect from it ; cer- tainly no immorality between persons closely related, such a thing is not heard of. Have you known any instances in which immorality has been imputed ? — None at all even imputed ; I do believe the Irish peasant would destroy himself if he thought it was seriously imputed to him. Have they blankets to put over the straw sufficient to cover it ? — In general not. Do they sleep in their clothes ? — In the county of Kerry they seldom sleep in their clothes, they are better off in the remoter parts of it with respect to blankets ; so in the remoter districts of the county of Cork ; but I have reason to believe, that in Limerick, and in a portion of Clare, and in parts of the county of Cork, they sleep in their clothes ; I know that near Dublin they sleep in their clothes, and that upon recent investigation, within eight or ten miles of Dublin, out of fourteen or fifteen families, there were only two found in which there was a blanket. Of what description is their ordinary clothing? — In the southern provinces they wear a frieze jacket, and the breeches of frieze, the waistcoat generally of flannel ; they are very ambitious of wearing something of a cloak made of frieze, a large coat ; any of them that get at all above the world now, are desirous of having a kind of cotton work called corduroy trowsers. Have they stockings generally r — In general they have not, at least in ordinary use, in those counties I have spoken of ; neither men nor women do in general wear shoes and stockings, it is dress and luxury. Have they sufficient clothes, in case of being wet, to change ? — Speaking of it as a general rule, they have no clothes to change ; they have none but what they wear at the moment ; of course, in the various grades of poverty and its shades, there are differences, but I speak of the general state of the Irish labouring peasantry. With respect to their food, of what does it consist ? — Except on the coast; of potatoes and water during the greater part of 144 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. the year ; potatoes and sour milk during another portion ; they use some sait with their potatoes when they have nothing but water ; on the sea coast they get fish, the children repair to the shore, and the women and they get shell fish of various kinds, and indeed various kinds of fish. Do they suffer any inconvenience in that season of the year which takes place between the going out of the old potatoes and the coming in of the nev/ ? — Almost always great distress, aggravated by the difficulties with respect to tithes. The Irish Acts enable the peasant to hold a kind of battle with the tithe owner upon every thing but potatoes ; with other things he can serve a notice to draw, but with potatoes it. is not so ; there is no statute provision respecting the potato, and then if the peasant begins to dig his potatoes he is completely at the mercy of the tithe owner ; and it is right to say, that he is in general not very harshly dealt with where the clergyman has the tithe himself; but when they are in the hands of lay- men, and frequently persons of the same persuasion with himself, is very badly dealt with ; if he begins to dig he has no mode afterwards of defending himself against the demand. That is, if he begins to dig previous to making an arrange- ment or bargain for his tithes ? — Yes ; and that is the interval that takes place between the going out of the old potatoes and coming in of the new harvest, because the bargain for the tithe is not made or te.idered to him at that early period ; he has great distress in general at that time. Have they the means of purchasing potatoes during that season, if their own stock is exhausted ? — Money is an article that the Irish peasant knows excessively little of; he has not the means. Is there no employment sufficient to afford the means of acquiring money in cases of difficulty? — Certainly not; I do not believe there is in the world a peasantry more ready to accept small wages for employment than the Irish peasant. Is there any thing like a demand for constant employment for the labouring class ? — There is not, according to my knowledge and experience, even any thing that could be called an occasional demand ; that is, the demand is so small that it scarcely deserves the name, it is rather an accidental demand than even occasional. Could you give the Committee any idea of the proportion of the people that are without employment ? — To attempt it numerically is m.atter of conjecture, but there certainly is not one out of twenty employed ; that is, there is nothing like constant work for that number. What is the customary wages for a man's labour when DANIEL O'CONNEL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 145 employed, independently of considerations of rent ? — I cannot say that, except in the remote district of the county of Kerry, where I take it to be when there is employment, sixpence a day without any meal, and four-pence a day with ; and yet I say that, from perhaps not a very distinct recollection, it is not more than that. I believe, during 1822, they cheerfully worked at two-pence a day without victuals, being paid in money. Under these circumstances of a want of employment, how do the people contrive to provide themselves with food ? — Every man cultivates the food of his own family ; potatoes and land becomes absolutely necessary therefore for every Irish peasant, and he cultivates that food, and he makes the rent in general (I am and have been speaking of the poorer class of peasantry) by feeding the pig as well as his own family upon the same food ; and if it be not wrong to call it so, at the same table, upon the same spot with that pig, he makes the rent, besides any chance he gets of daily labour. Is there generally a facility of acquiring land ? — Great diffi- culty : the lower class of tenantry, the mere peasant, it is painful to look for rent from, and he is supposed to injure the farm, and he does to a certain extent, and he has no capital to reinstate it, and they find therefore great difficulty in getting land, a difficulty increasing with the number of the popu- lation. What rate of rent is charged on this class of occupiers ?-~I cannot state that; the county of Clare subsists a good deal upon what are called conacres, that has been introduced but lately at all into Kerry, and not at all into my part ; and in my part of it, the land is reckoned by the quantity of cows grazing ; it is divided into plough lands and gneeves. What is the conacre system ? — I am not very familiar with it; as far as my knowledge of it reaches, it is this; I speak, however, with diffidence of it ; it is a right to plant a crop, paying sometimes six, eight, or ten pounds an acre for that right by the single year, and the crop is detained till that rent is made up, in whatever way it can be made up; but then 1 should take a peasant to be wealthy that took an acre. How does the peasant pay his rent who takes land by the year ? — The lowest class of peasant pays it by the price of his pig and his labour, whatever chance of labour he has ; the better class than that pay the rent by the produce of butter; in the mountain districts of oats, in the district something better than that ; in the remote parts of the county of Cork they pay their rent by the produce of barley, and in the richer 146 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. parts, the better farmers by the produce of wheat ; by the produce, I mean the money produced. How does a man pay the rent for a conacre ? — I am not prepared to answer that ; I am not sufficiently acquainted ; but I should take it in general by labour, and by the sale of the pig. From a former part of your evidence, it would appear there is difficulty in finding labour ? — The only places which I am at all acquainted with conacres are in the vicinity of towns; my own residence is necessarily, the far greater part of the year, in Dublin, and my professional avocations are sufficient to prevent me from being acquainted with the minuter details of farming. Are there not a great number of the lower orders that cannot even obtain conacres for the potatoes ? — Yes, that is the im- pression upon my mind. In what manner do they contrive to live ? — I cannot tell that ; I speak of there being such, not of my own knowledge, but as a general impression. Have circumstances occurred, within your knowledge, of hardship, in respect of distraining for rent ? — Very many. Is it a general hardship in the country ?— It is a general grievance, very much aggravated by the necessity of sub- lettings ; there are frequently six and seven between the pro- prietor of the fee and the actual occupier ; and whenever any two of those happen to differ in the state of their accounts, the man who claims more than the other has paid, or is will- ing to pay, settles the dispute, by distraining the actual occu- pier ; and that occurs, in many instances, where the occupier has paid his own rent to his own landlord. Then every superior tenant of the sub-tenant's has a right of distress over the actual occupier ? — Unquestionably. Have cases come to your knowledge, of hardship arising from that? — The greatest cruelty and oppression, and it is attended with this additional oppression : a recent statute, •which was passed about the year 1817, for the first time, enabled the landlords to distrain growing crops in Ireland. My own opinion is, that that statute has contributed extreme- ly to the disturbances in the South, because in all those cases of sub-letting, it gave to every one of those individuals the power of distraining the growing crop, that growing crop being the subsistence of the family of the peasant ; and if he can forbear from digging the potato himself, he cannot re- strain his v/ife and children. I have known numerous in- stances, where informations as for a felony were sworn before DANIEL O'CONNF.LL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 147 a magistrate ; the wretch was committed to a jail for two or three or four months, till the ensuing assizes, when it was discovered it could not be a felony ; but then the wretch had lain in jail during that time, and his family of course exces- sively ill off. The worst of the crimes of the South I attribute a great deal to the effect of that Act of Parliament. Are the lower orders severe in their dealings towards one another, in regard to enforcing distress? — They are harsh and unfeeling towards each other in pecuniary matters. Do they exercise the right to the fullest extent of enforcing what is due to them, under all circumstances? — ^They do ; I have known persons who would be perfectly ready to die for each other in personal quarrels, as harsh about a shilling or a sixpence as if they had no previous acquaintance with each other whatever. Have instances of grievance occurred to you, and hardship, arising out of the practice of ^bringing ejectments for rent ?— Yes ; the stamp duties, with respect to the tenure of land, of course are paid by the tenant ; and with respect to a peasant, the amount of stamp duty would be more money than he could possibly command ; the consequence of which is, that he deals in general upon parole, or upon a contract, written upon unstamped paper. The effect of that is, that it gives the landlord a constant power of breaking through the contract, without any remedy. Not even a civil bill action will lie for a breach of the contract, because it requires that it should be stamped before it can be produced ; the consequence of which is, that every species of landlords have the means of bringing ejectments, and turning the tenants out. Before the civil bill ejectment was allowed by Act of Parliament, a landlord was cautious of bringing an ejectment, for even if defence was not made, it would cost him fourteen or fifteen pounds, at the cheapest, to turn out a tenant ; but the civil bill eject- ment has very much increased the power of lower landlords, for by means of that he can turn out his tenant for a few shillings ; and that horrible murder of the Shees w^as occa- sioned by a civil bill ejectment, brought in that way. I wish to express this opinion strongly to the Committee, that the Acts of Parliament, passed since the peace, giving to Irish landlords increased facilities of ejectment and distress, have necessarily very much increased the tendency to disturbance in Ireland ; there have been several of them within the last ten years. Have those laws produced this effect, by being made use of by the upper class of landlords ? — Yes ; they have been used by the upper classes of Irish gentry in the South. The resi- L 2 148 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. dent gentry were in general very much involved in debt, and could not contrive to get their living ; they were pressed them- selves, and without making any further apology for them, they certainly used their tenants quite as severely as any one pea- sant did another. There were of course many exceptions ; I do not mean to speak of it as an universal proposition at all. Do you speak of the landlords or the middle men ? — I speak of both ; but the landlords however, in general, are persons who have leases of lives, renewable for ever. I do not know that I include in it many, who are actually seized in fee. Will you be good enough to mention the statutes you refer to as having passed since the peace? — I refer to two or three. I will be prepared on a future day to give the Committee the precise statutes, but I can describe them generally ; the sta- tute that gave the power of distraining the growing crops, the acts that enabled the civil bill ejectment to be brought ; the one statute enabled the civil bill ejectment to be brought, and another, I believe two others, extended it, and facilitated the means of bringing it. Those are the statutes I allude to ; the precise years and chapters I shall furnish the Committee with. Do the tenants suffer much under the custodiam process ? — There are many instances in which the tenants suffer exces- sively under the custodiam process. Will you explain the nature of the custodiam writ ? — The custodiam is a grant from the Crown to the creditor of the debtor''s land. It commences in the court of Common Pleas, by a civil outlawry ; and that outlawry being estreated into the Exchequer, a grant is made in the Exchequer, called a custodiam ; the potential effect of which is to entitle the cre- ditor to all the rents of the debtor, and to enable him, by a motion, which is a matter of course, a side bar rule, as it is called, to compel the tenants of the outlaw to pay their rents to the custodie ; and also, by another order or motion in court, to demise under the court any lands not in lease. The mode in which rents are levied under it is by personal demand ; and if there be a refusal, an attachment-liberty is given occa- sionally to distrain ; but the usual course, and that most pro- ductive to the attorney, and I may add, therefore, that gene- rally pursued, is by attachment. The outlaw will himself distrain the tenants ; he has other creditors, who have mort- gages and annuities, and conflicts eternally take place between them, which may be settled, and ought to be settled by the court, upon motion, but which frequently are not ; and when they are not, the person who actually suffers is the occupying tenant, for he is compelled, under distress, to pay his rent ; DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 149 and after he has paid it to one, he is attached for not paying it to the custodiam creditor. I have known instances, in which the wretched peasants have Iain in gaol for years, under that process of attachment ; and it is cruel to the debtor, be- cause the legal expenses of it are enormous. Are the instances numerous that have come under your knowledge ? — I have been twenty-seven years at the Irish bar, and the instances are very numerous that have come within my knowledge, where, in really fair cases (tenants will col- lude, of course, with their landlord, and things of that kind will occur, but I have known an immense number of fair cases), in which the effect of that process has been most grievous, most oppressive; and that without the slightest tinge of blame to those who administered the law in the country. Is not this form of proceeding by custodiam, a form of pro- ceeding peculiar to Ireland, as distinguished from England ? — I take it to be so, though I should speak even of Irish prac- tice with diffidence, but of English still more so ; but when we have occasion, in arguing questions, to refer to authorities, we get very little assistance from the English books. That proceeding certainly is not known in England ; I say certainly, because if it were, the reports would contain cases upon it. Is not one effect of the proceeding by custodiam to defeat the claims of prior creditors ? — They may be postponed ; de- feat is, perhaps, too strong a word ; they are postponed necessarily, because, in judgment debts, the priority is accord- ing to the date of the judgment ; the proceedings by what is called an elegit, which is a mode of getting possession of either the rents or the land of the debtor. Those proceedings derive their force according to the priority of the judgment in point of date ; but in the custodiam proceedings, it is according to the date of the inquisition. Does not proceeding by custodiam tend to complicate and defeat the ordinary proceedings by ejectment ? — Yes ; inno- cent landlords are put to great inconvenience by it, because unless the attorney makes search for custodiams, the landlord, to whom rent is fairly due, and due even from a fraudulent tenant, is defeated in that ejectment, merely because he has not gone through the form of obtaining the consent of the attorney-general, and bringing ejectment in the Court of Ex- chequer ; if it be brought in any other court but that, the proceedings are often made void ; and I have known instances in which landlords have lost a year's rent over and over again, and that to a large amount, merely because there were cus- todiams against their under tenants. 150 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESd. EXAMINED. Have you known many instances in which a custodiam has been fraudulently obtained, without the knowledge of the party against whom it was granted? — I have known that occurrence frequently ; I am convinced it exists daily ; and I have known instances of custodiams either obtained, or at least continued by the debtor himself. Have you any doubt that it would be a very considerable improvement in the law of Ireland, as relating to landlord and tenant, if the practice in Ireland, or the law in Ireland, were to be placed upon the same footing, as to custodiams, as it is in England ? — I am quite convinced that the proceeding by custodiam at present in Ireland, is a grievance of an op- pressive nature ; but I am not prepared to say, except as far as it may be merely abolished, that the merely assimilating it to the English practice would be of great good. Have many tenants of late been turned off the lands, in the part of Ireland you are acquainted with ? — Within the last eight or ten years, many tenants have been turned off the land. Is that habit increasing amongst landlords of clearing their farms ? — I think it is at a stand ; the depreciation of prices made the tenants so unpunctual in paying, that many land- lords have endeavoured to clear the farms of them altogether, and to hold them in their own hands, sometimes feeding cattle upon them ; in general they make cattle dairies, but on the fattening lands there have not been occupying tenants for some years. What becomes of the families that are turned off, how do they contrive to exist ? — They exist among the wretched class of labourers, or they go about begging ; the man goes to England or some remote parts of Ireland to get labour, and the wife and children go begging during the autumn of the year ; that occurs upon some estates in fee, where there is no middle man at all ; I know it in one district very extensively upon an estate in fee. You alluded to the operation of the Civil Bill Ejectment Act, the Committee wish to know, whether that Act altered any thing but the process by which the ejectment was effected ? — Yes, it did ; it altered a good deal ; in the first place, that Act altered and took away the exceptions which formerly existed from the ejectment ; there were some ex- cepted cases, in which an ejectment for non-payment of rents did not lie at all, as a case of infancy, coverture, and impri- sonment, that Act took away those exceptions totally ; it also, according to my recollection, and I believe I am accurate, altered this, that it gave ejectments against absconding DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ,. EXAMINED. 151 tenants, as they were called, where the premises were left vacant, it gave to two magistrates the power of declaring that vacancy ; and any thing that increases the power of the magistracy in Ireland, I take to be a great alteration, not for the better but for the worse ; it gave that power to magis- trates to declare the tenement vacant, so that it altered, by taking away the excepted cases, and bringing them within the ejectment statute altogether, such as the cases of infancy, coverture, insanity, and any person out of the realm, or in prison ; it also increased the class of cases, by cases against absenting tenants' deserted possessions. You do not mean to apply the observations which you make as to increased hardship upon the tenant, which the Act imposed to the case of absenting tenants, that is not the part of the Act of which you complain ? — No, its general opera- tion ; but I have known cases where men were voted to be absenting, that really were not, and therefore cases of hard- ship in that respect, and I consider the Act as being liable to abuse ; the theory of the Acts was, perhaps, good ; I speak of their application to the state of society and peasantry in Ire- land, as stimulating to insurrectionary movements, and creat- ing an oppression upon the peasantry. With respect to the Act which has been adverted to, which gave the power of distraining growing crops, was there not a provision in that Act to meet the case of a tenant who had already paid his rent ? — As I remember there was, but that was only giving him a legal remedy against another person ; it is quite useless to talk of an Irish peasant having a legal remedy ; he has not money enough to pay the stamp duty upon what they call a latitat, the first process. You have stated, that the usage generally in the counties you referred to was, that the tenants held by parole agreement, or by a written agreement, not recorded on stamped paper ? — I stated that as one of the ill effects of stamp duties upon tenures. You are perhaps aware, that that has not operated very extensively to the prevention of the registry freeholders, which can only be made upon stamped instruments ? — With respect to the registry of freeholders, there being landlords, having a particular stimulus to register freeholders, they would go to the expense of the stamp duty ; and besides that, the tenant there is supposed always to have an interest in the land, so that the case of traffic in freeholders is not applicable to my observation ; I have known, however, many freeholders registered upon unstamped paper of late years ; if the inferior 152 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESa. EXAMINED. officer be in that interest, the thing may take place and easily. In cases of the creation of freehold interest on stamped paper, have you known any instances, in which the freehold lease, though executed, has not been delivered over to the pos- session of the tenant, but has been kept in the hands of the landlord ? — Yes, I have known instances of that, and the com- plaints of it are not at all unfrequent. Arising out of that, even in those cases where there is a stamped agreement between the parties, and where therefore the tenant has a legal instrument ascertaining and establish- ing his right, the same species of dependence which you have already alluded to still subsists, if that instrument remains in the hands of the landlord? — It does, and I have known it exercised ; certainly to exercise it at all would be improper ; but I have known it exercised very improperly. The Committee understand you to state, that you have known instances of freeholders being registered, where the leases under which they were registered were on unstamped paper ? — Yes. Can you state any instances in which you know it of your own knowledge ? — I am not prepared to mention names ; it would be impossible for me to state particular instances ] I have known the thing occur. It is illegal, is it not? — It must be illegal, because neither tenure nor contract for land can be made in Ireland without a stamp. Are you aware, that the certificate runs that it is upon stamped paper ? — Yes ; but that is recent. Therefore the clerk of the peace would be the person who would be in fault ? — Since the passing of that Act, which is certainly a recent Act. Are you of opinion that there is any great difficulty in making registries of freeholders without the business being very accurately performed according to law? — The greatest facility ; the clerk of the peace can appoint his deputy, any man can be his deputy for the moment, and it is the easiest thing in the world to register freeholds upon the present sys- tem, without either freehold or valid tenure to constitute a freeholder ; there must be first tenure, that is to say, a grant for a life or lives to constitute a freehold ; in order to registry there must be at the utmost such a rent as would leave the freeholder a profit of forty shillings a year : now I have known numerous instances, where, if a peasant was made to swear that he had a freehold of forty shillings, he would have perjured himself in the grossest way ; and in those instances a friendly DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 153 magistrate or two may very easily get into the room ; an adjournment of the sessions for the purpose of registry is the easiest thing in the world, because the Act of Parliament gives validity to the registry, notwithstanding any irregularity in the adjournment of the sessions, therefore two magistrates can come together very easily, get the deputy of the clerk of the peace to attend, and they can register upon unstamped paper if they please. They can register with the life described in such a way, that that life will be either dead or living, as they please, at the next election ; John O'Driscol or Timothy Sullivan, or any thing of that kind. Frauds with respect to the registry of freeholds are very considerable; but still it is, I take it, a very great advantage to the Irish peasant upon the whole, to have the power of voting given to him by forty- shilling freehold. Not in this manner and under these conditions? — Not in its abuses ; but I speak of abuses, which with a vigilant ma- gistracy would be prevented or much diminished. Do you think those abuses are general in the counties you have alluded to? — Abuses exist, but I do not think them by any means general ; they are frequent. Do you conceive that the multiplication of oaths, with refer- ence to the registration of freeholds, and with reference to the proceedings at elections, as well as other oaths which are administered to the peasantry of Ireland, has had the effect of rendering them in any respect indifferent to the obligation of an oath? — Yes, I am convinced of it ; the frequency of oaths has had a most demoralizing effect upon the peasantry of Ire- land; my opinion is, that the civil bill jurisdiction of the county courts is most frightful and horrible in its effects upon the morals of the Irish people. The allowing a single indivi- dual to decide, who cannot possibly be acquainted with the bearings of character, in the first place, it is not bringing jus- tice home to the peasant, it is bringing litigation ; then a sin- gle individual decides, he has an immense number of causes to decide, he cannot possibly weigh the character, for he cannot be acquainted with its shades; in the next place, it is not pleasant to him to have that task ; the jury keep each other in countenance, one man is not reproached with having discre- dited a witness, there are twelve on the jury, and therefore they protect each other ; the assistant barrister is not so, he has not that protection ; then if he decides, arid I have seen this to a frightful and horrible extent, if the barrister decides, he will necessarily decide in favour of the flippant and dis- tinct swearer ; the swearer who has been trained to swear distinctly up to the fact that shall constitute the law. To 154 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. have a conscience is an inconvenience, therefore in the civil bill court, if he is a man of character, scrupulous of his oath, he does his friend no good at all, but the ready and distinct swearer is beyond value ; and it has had this effect, that in their dealings the peasantry, in most of them, employ their children at a very early age, to be their witnesses, and they produce them at an age that it is actually frightful to look at them. I am, in my conscience, thoroughly convinced, that if a society were instituted to discourage virtue and coun- tenance vice, it would have been ingenious indeed if it had discovered such a system as the assistant barrister's court ; without meaning, in the slightest degree to impeach the inte- grity of the gentlemen who hold that situation in Ireland, some of whom are not very competent, to be sure, in point of intellect, but many of whom are extremely competent; and as to the appointments of the last eight or ten years, particu- larly, they have been improving certainly in respect of ap- pointment. Are not the evils w^hich you have described as incident to the civil bill jurisdiction, augmented by reason of the places in which the court are held, which bring individuals from a very great distance, and where, consequently, their character is little known? — That inconvenience is merely pecuniary; and the hardship' of travelling, that, in my mind, is but a very slight inconvenience ; the great inconvenience is the im- morality ; when questions are tried by jury, there is a bonus held out to men to be of good character ; for they obtain cre- dit by it, and the trial by jury gives ordinarily a stamp upon character ; now it would seem to me, that the legislature ought to encourage, as much as possible, every thing that shall have a tendency to make character valuable ; the civil bill jurisdic- tion, w^hich takes away the trial by jury, takes away the ten- dency of value to character, and gives a tendency to flippancy of swearing. Do you conceive it would be practicable to try by jury the number of cases which necessarily come before the assistant barristers at sessions ? — I think the number of cases, in itself, a great evil ; I know that the tendency is to multiply them most unnecessarily ; I know that full well. I know that, in practice, decrees are obtained without a service of civil bill at all, and very many decrees. I know, in practice, instances, and the cases are not few, in which individuals obtain decrees in this way ; they fill a civil bill at the sessions ; John Brown, for example, wishes to get a decree, and he fills a civil bill at the sessions in the name of John Geary or John Sullivan, there is no service of course '; he goes in, and though he is the DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 155 personintending to have the decree himself, he proves the case, and gets the decree, and goes and makes the distress, and sells the goods, before there is a possibility of discovering the fraud. That has been attempted to be met by taking the bai- liff up for a capital felony, as for stealing the cattle, or vs^hat- ever he seized, and when the assizes came on, I have seen him indicted for the felony, and he produced the civil bill decree ; then it was said, it was a fraud, and the man ought to be pro- secuted for the fraud and for the perjury ; for the perjury it is impossible, for who is to identify the person to be the swearer at the sessions. Is it not a phrase, perfectly understood in the country, " stealing a decree ?" — 'Perfectly understood ; I have known this flagrant instance; there was a tenant of mine, who, for a cottier tenant, was comfortable ; the man had five milch cows, he got a typhus fever, which extended to his wife and chil- dren ; while he was lying in that state, two decrees were stolen upon him, every particle he had in the world was sold, and he was reduced to complete beggary : when I came to the country afterwards, and he made a complaint of this, I found that the man who had done so, was also living as a tenant of mine, and I had no remedy in the world but to turn him off, for I found it impossible to institute a prosecution with suc- cess. Do you mean, that that man owed nothing to the other ?— He did not owe a shilling. Under what pretence did he obtain those decrees? — One of them was under the pretence of what they call " sheaf;" that term requires explanation ; the outgoing tenant in Ireland, almost universally, is entitled to a portion of the crop which they call sheaf, it is in some places the third sheaf, and they talk of a sheaf of potatoes, a sheaf of twigs ; and one of those decrees was obtained, under pretence of a title to sheaf; it happened to occur to the man that was taking it to fill it in that way ; the other was as for a debt. And he went and swore to this ? — He had it sworn to ; he either swore it himself, or got somebody else to swear it. Is not the hurry of the mode of proceeding in the civil bill court, such as to leave it open to those frauds which you have alluded to, and to many other frauds ? — It must necessarily ; the hurry is excessive ; it is impossible to have any thing more undignified, or unlike a court of justice in general, than the civil bill court; there are two or three attornies talking to their clients on every side ; they are taking their instructions, and examining the witnesses for the next causes, Avhile the pause is going on. There is a great deal of vehemence of 156 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. character about the Irish ; the plaintiff and the defendant and their wives and their witnesses are all bawling, at the same time the attorney screaming. There is no poetry in saying, that justice is frightened away. What quantity of time do you suppose is given to the dis- posal of those cases? — Six thousand cases have been decided in a week, as I understand. Do not you connect the hurried mode in which the business is transacted, in some degree with the circumstance of the as- sistant barristers being also practising barristers in the supe- rior courts ? — Yes, I take it that it is a great evil in the sys- tem that they are practising barristers ; I do not mean at all to disparage my own profession ; yet we are men, and the civil bill attornies employ the assistant barristers ; and the civil bill clients employ the assistant barristers ; and in spite of the highest feelings of a very high profession, that will mingle, it ought not to be allowed to exist. Then you conceive it would be an improvement upon the present system, if the office and functions of the assistant barristers were made more exclusively judicial than they now are ? — I think it M^ould be a great improvement ; my own ab- stract opinion is, that the evil of serving process for the re- covery of small debts, and the necessary increase of oaths, is much greater than any that would occur, if they were irreco- verable. 1 think, in the balance of evils, it would be better that small debts were irrecoverable; and I believe that few small debts would be unpaid, if there was no legal process, for no man would get credit but a man who had a character for punctuality; and that again would operate upon society as an additional bonus to character and fidelity. I think it Avould be better therefore if debts, under perhaps 51. or more, were irrecoverable, and the assistant barristers were lessened in number, and increased much in salary, for if you do not pay the workmen well, you will not have good workmen; and that they went stated circuits, and that they tried every ques- tion by jury, and that the magistrates were not exempt from serving upon those juries, as constituting part of the sessions court, which is another evil wherever a jury is attempted in those cases ; but the evils of the civil bill court are nothing in point of perjury, and every abomination, compared to the evils of the petty courts in corporate towns and boroughs, where the manor courts continue to exist in Ireland ; in the manor courts, the most indecent proceedings take place: a vulgar fellow, a hedge schoolmaster, or driver to an estate, is made seneschal, that is, the judge of the court; he holds the court generally in a miserable whiskey house. It is almost an DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 157 universal rule that the jury will not g'o together, unless they get a certain portion of whiskey ; and I have known instances, I say known, because they were proved before me; I have known an instance in which it was proved before me, for they reserve their quarrels for me to decide when I go to the coun- try, that the jury decided for the person who gave them most whiskey, having declared that they would do so. Are the juries sworn in those manor courts ? — They are, and returned by the seneschal. You are speaking now of manor courts? — I am speaking now of manor courts. I hardly know one person of respecta- bility as seneschal ; I knew one, but he was a magistrate, and he was deprived of the commission of the peace upon that account ; 1 think improperly. Do you mean that he was struck out of the commission be- cause he was a seneschal ? — Yes ; he was nearly connected with myself. Will you state the instance? — A Mr. M'Carthy. In what part of the country ? — Mr. Jeremiah M'Carthy, in Newmarket, in the county of Cork! I made the inquiry, and I found that was the cause of his being struck out. What is the amount to which the manor court is limited? — That varies according to the patent. In the manor in Ire- land, where the patents have not been preserved, except those which have been officially enrolled, and particularly those be- longing to titles after the usurpation ; the evidence of the jurisdiction is usage giving evidence of prescriptive right ; and there the more aggravated the abuse, the stronger the evidence of the usage is. Would there not be, in most of those places where those local jurisdictions, exercised by seneschals, exist, considerable difficulty in finding proper persons to fill that situation ? — • There would ; they have fallen into great disrepute, by rea- son of the people who have filled them; and in general, it Mould be considered an offence to ask a man to act as se- neschal. How would you propose to remedy the evil ? — To abolish the seneschal courts ; I take them to be unmixed evil, in- creasing litigation, and a most frightful source of perjury. I know of no one advantage to be derived from them. Do you know whether those seneschals derive fees ? — Yes. When you speak of abolishing the seneschals, you only mean so far as relates to judicial proceedings before them ?— • They are only for judicial proceedings ; they have no other function ; in Ireland, the seneschal of certain boroughs is the returning officer ; I do not at all speak of him, but I am 158 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. speaking of the country in general. The manor courts do nothing else. Do not the abuses you have described in the civil bill court arise very much from the facility with which you can obtain evidence of the service of process, in cases where no service of process has in point of fact taken place ? — Very much ; it is the easiest thing in the world to obtain the evidence of the service of an unserved process. In the event of the civil bill court remaining, would it not be a great improvement if the service of process were to re- main in the hands of the officer of the court ? — It would ; but those experiments are also dangerous. Who shall answer for his fidelity; he would have at his disposal this question, who should recover and who should not. What is the present character of the individuals who are employed as process servers throughout the country ? — It is considered, upon cross-examination, quite sufficient to esta- blish that a man is a process server, in order to have done with Jiis evidence. Are there any circumstances which distinguish the effects of the execution of process of the seneschal court, from those which attend the execution of the decrees of the civil bill court ? — Yes ; murders ensue upon it, at least manslaughter ; human lives are lost, and that not unfrequently, in executing the decrees ; they are executed by the parties who go in a vio- lent way ; injustice has been perpetrated by the decree, which gives a natural tendency to resistance, and each party arms himself as well as he can ; a battle actually takes place, and human lives are lost. I have known that. This relates to civil bill decrees, as well as those of manor courts ? — Even upon civil bill decrees those battles are fought ; there is, however, something more in the civil bill decree, for the sheriff must sign that decree ; and there is an attor- ney upon it, who, although civil bill attornies do not rank as high as the others, yet he has a character, and will be cautious. The execution of the decrees of the civil bill court is put in the hands of the party ? — It is ; the sub-sheriffs frequently sign the warrant in blank; that is a bad practice, condemned of course every where. Do you mean that the parties insert their own names? — They insert what names they please ; they do not insert the names of the plaintiff. The courts of conscience are exces- sively injurious. Would not the requiring of juries in civil courts have a tendency to diminish the quantity of litigation ? — Certainly, DANTEL O'CONNELL, ESQ, EXAMINED. 159 to diminish perjury, to increase the vahie of character, and of course to diminish the readiness of men of bad character to swear ; it would have all the advantages of trial by jury, which, to my judgment, are very great. Would it become impossible to carry on the civil bill suits, in your opinion, by having juries ? — I think not ; I think that by not allowing actions to be brought for very small sums, and by having regular circuits, six or eight circuits in a year, civil bill circuits, that justice would be brought home to the doors of the poor in Ireland, without bringing litigation and chicanery. Do you know what are the opinions of the assistant-bar- risters upon this point of having juries ? — I have spoken to many of them upon it, excellent and intelligent and honour- able men ; and I find that there is a facility in every body to believe, that he can do by himself, that he does not choose to have assistance ; the opinions of the assistant-barristers are rather against it, they have a power to impanel a jury to try facts, which they never exercise, at least very seldom. Is it your opinion, that if the business under the civil bill process was conducted with more regularity, and with more certainty as to the administration of justice, than it is at pre- sent, that that very circumstance would have a very great ten- dency to diminish the number of actions ? — I am convinced it would, a very great tendency both upon the clients and the attornies; and that if the attorney's emoluments were allowed to be increased at the Avill of his client, it would also diminish the number much by taking away his interest to multiply the number. In point of fact, is not the jurisdiction exercised by the as- sistant barristers on the Crown side beneficial ; is it not con- ducted with the greatest order and the greatest regularity? — I think the assistant barrister is decidedly useful in Ireland, on the Crown side. 160 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Martis, 1° die Martii, 1S25. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR. Daniel 0'Co?inell, Esquire, again called in; and Examined. Are you of opinion that sufficient time is allowed by the assistant barrister at the Quarter Sessions, for the business of the Crown court ? — As the Crown business is done at present, I do not think that sufficient time is allowed ; it is not, strictly speak- ing, the duty of the assistant bari'ister ; he is only one of the ma- gistrates, and his duty being the civil business, he feels, as it appears to lue, that he discharges his duty if he does the civil business ; and then the criminal business being matter of supere- rogation, he is anxious to get rid of that as fast as he can ; there- fore I do not think that sufficient time is given to the criminal business. Does his attendance upon his professional duties in Dublin, interfere with his duty as assistant barrister in the Crown court ? — Yes, my opinion is that it does ; the more an assistant barrister is employed in Dublin, the more efficient he ought to be, the success being evidence, as I conceive, of his efficiency ; and there- fore the more efficient any man is, the more it is his interest to shorten the time below, and to be in Dublin attending his own business, so that the best workmen are necessarily in the greatest hurry to get rid of the civil business. Is the assistant barrister by law chairman of the CroAvii court ? — I take him to be chairman of the Crown court by law, but with a single voice only; according to my judgment, no casting voice ; and I have known him over-ruled by the magistrates ; and I never knew him overruled, that he was not improperly overruled; upon the Avhole, I think the attendance of a bar- rister at the sessions, calculated to do great good and no harm at all, if he had leisure enough to attend to it. How is the business conducted in the Crown court generally ? — Very badly in the southern provinces, with which I am ac- quainted practically ; I know nothing of the northern sessions, the province of Ulster, but in the others it is badly conducted ; the grand juries are selected from improper persons, low persons ; the venders of spirits and beer, find it a profitable trade to be grand jurors, because they can vote against the finding of bills for their customers ; the grand jury therefore, in general, is badly constituted, so tliiat of late I have known some assistant barristers make out a good grand jury out of the half-pay officers who hap- pened to be resident in the neighboiu-hood. DANIEL 0''C0NN£LL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 161 You do not apply that observation to all the southern pro- vinces ? — No ; but my opinion is, that in all the southern pro- vinces the grand juries are not well selected ; as far as I know they are not ; I mean the grand juries at the quarter sessions; I do not of course speak of the grand juries of the assizes ; no gen- tleman, who is in the commission of the peace, can be upon that grand jury at all, for he is part of the court; so that all that class are thrown out of it; and such gentlemen, for there are several who do not condescend to take the commission of the peace, or who do not wish to take it, would feel themselves hurt, as far as my knowledge goes, if the sub-sheriff were to summon them on the session grand jury. Can you point out any other class but magistrates, who are excluded from those grand juries? — No; revenue officers are by the statute. Is it the practice to appoint Catholics? — As far as I know, it is ; I do not know that in the south any religious distinction is made on the sessions grand juries at all, or if at all, very little ; it is certainly not a subject of complaint. What is your opinion with respect to the appointment of petit juries at sessions? — It is equally bad, or perhaps Avorse; the criminal practice at the sessions is to have almost every cause tried with a double aspect ; a prosecutor in the one number, as soon as he has given his evidence, goes into the dock, and the prosecuted comes upon the table to prosecute; they send up cross indictments; there is scarcely any doubt that mutual batteries have taken place. Are there cross indictments in cases of larceny ? — They scarcely ever try larcenies at the quai'ter sessions in the south ; in the county of Kerry, with which I am best acquainted, I have known but one or two instances of petit larceny tried at sessions. Are the proceedings of the court conducted Avith order and regularity? — No, they are not, except when the personal cha- racter of the assistant barrister is of a more decisive nature ; it depends altogether on the decision of the individual ; for example, the gentleman who filled the chair in the county of Limerick, a most respectable gentleman, Mr. Lloyd, kept his court in great order ; I have known other very valuable men, who have not kept their courts at all in order. What class of the profession practise in those courts ? — Bar- risters scarcely at all, except in the county of Cork ; there are some barristers who are resident ; from the quantity of property in Cork, it forms a kind of exception ; I understand there is a little of that in Waterford also, or rather there was ; but in Cork, from the quantity of commercial property, and the Recorder of Cork, Mr. Wagget, having qualities to make him an excellent M judge; he is a gentleman of private fortune^ wlio was in a Very successful career at the bar, and av^s quahfied to reach the very highest station in it ; that gentleman is Recorder of Cork, Avith a very small salary, which he has repeatedly refused to allow to be increased. In his record court, the trial is by jury, and the pleadings are in his court regularly filed, as regularly as in the courts above ; he sits at least once a week to try records, and tries questions of very great magnitude ; there is a bar established in Cork by that means ; out of Cork, with the single exception of WaterfoiTl, I believe there is no local bar ; the consequence is, that the sessions business is done altogether by attorneys, and the class of sessions attorneys is not the most respectable; but I should s^y, that very respectable men also do practise, especially the young men ol* respectable connexions, and in the commencement of their career, practise in the sessions. • Is it considered discreditable for a respectable attorney to prac- tise in the court of quarter sessions in Ireland ? — It still con- tinues, to a considerable extent, to, be so ; it was considered quite disreputable, and it was so by reason of some of the leading men of the profession of attorneys, having formed rather a fashionable club in Dublin, in which it was a rule that no man should be ad- mitted, who practised in the sessions court, so that they them- selves stigmatized the sessions practitioners; that, however, is diminishing, from the reason I stated, that respectable young men do certainly now practise : the relaxation of the Popery laws has given a better class of attorneys than existed in the counties before. Are the fees regulated by Act of Parliament ? — The fees of the Civil Bill court ai'e regulated by Act of Parliament. I am ignorant v/hether the fees of the criminal court are regulated by Act of Parliament or not. What is your opinion Avith regard to the effect of those fees, in preventing respectable attorneys practising in those courts ? — I am persuaded that the limited nature of the fees is an evil every where, that prevents respectable attorneys practising, when they get into general business ; and it has a natural tendency to excite attorneys when they do practise, to multiply the number of cases, in order that the number may make up to them emoluments, which ought to be created by a lesser quantity. Since the stamp duty has been taken off "the process, is it not in the power of any man to summon another, and place him un- der the vexatious circumstances of being called upon to appear in court, without incurring any expense whatsoever? — It is, cer- tainly ; he can do it, of course, at a great deal less expense since the stamp duty was taken away ; but as long as courts exist for the recovery of small debts, which I beg again to say, as far as my own humble judgment goes, is against that judgment, I think DANIEL O'CONNELL, lESQ. EXAJftlJfe'D. 16S it would be better not to have courts for the recovery of small debts ; but as long as they do exist, the cheaper they are made, in my opinion, the better ; the principle seems to me to be cheap- ness ; my great objection to those courts, is the immense quantity of perjury they necessarily engender. Your observations apply only to the southern provinces, and not to the northern? — I have said so, that is, when I speak from my own knowledge ; a great deal (speaking from imbrmation) of the mischief of civil bills, I understand, does extend also to the northern districts, but I do not know it of my OM'n knowledge ; I know nothing of the mode of empannelling grand juries in the north, even from hearsay, if I may be allowed that phrase. Are you acquainted with the manner in which justice has been administered by the magistrates throughout the south of Ireland? — I think I am; it has made a very unfavom*able impression upon my mind. The mode of administering the criminal law by the magistrates, has been very bad, and continues, though the petty sessions hav€ given some improvement, to be, in my judg- ment, bad. Can you state, generally, any practices which have prevailed, which have rendered the administration of justice such as you have described it to be ? — The administration of justice is divided into ministerial acts, which are preparatory to trials in cruninal courts, and judicial acts, v/here the magistrates inflict penalties and decide cases. Now, in ministerial acts, there was a great flip- pancy in sending persons to trial upon informations brought in writing to the magistrates, and sworn to wdthout due examination or caution, so that in the southern counties the difference was very great between the number of persons found in the calendar at such assizes, several of w-hom were months in gaol, and the number indicted ; and a very great dispi^oportion between those indicted and those convicted ; now, a vigilant and a paternal ma- gistracy would certainly have prevented those cruel grievances. Have abuses prevailed with regard to the manner in which summonses for attendance have been granted ? — Great abuses ; the jurisdiction which has been extended with respect to tithes by an Act of Parliament of five or six yeai'S ago (I speak in round numbers) has been attended with very grievous consequences in many places ; I know an instance, in which (it was one of many) peasants were summoned by two magistrates ; the tithes being let by an absentee clergyman, who had two very large parishes, and only two or three Protestant inhabitants ; he let them to an indi- vidual who did not think the people a bit the better for his being a Roinan Cathohc himself; I have known him to get summonses from two magistrates who resided nineteen miles from the farm, and the people went with their witnesses the nineteen miles ; and M 2 164 DANIEL oVoNNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. as soon as it was found they had their witnesses, and were ready for the cause, the magistrates at once adjourned the court for a week ; so that they had thirty-eight miles to travel, with their witnesses, without effect. Were there magisti'ates resident nearer than the nineteen miles ? — Oh yes, many. Those two magistrates were certainly very singularly circumstanced, for one of them is in the depot for transported convicts, and the other I saw discharged as an insol- vent the other day ; they would have harassed the people three or four weeks more, if I had not been in the country. Is it not the case, that the party who sues for tithes before the magistrates, is empowered to choose the magistrates before whom he will bring the cause "^ — Certainly. And there is no option in the party complained against? — None in the world ; as I remember the Act of Parliament, how- ever, there are some exceptions. Magistrates, who are tithe- owners, are, I think, excluded ; but then, if they do act, what is the remedy of the peasant? only an application to the court of Kings's Bench ; it is quite idle to talk of that to an Irish peasant. Are either of those magistrates, to whom you have referred, still in the commission ? — No. How long have they ceased to be? — Perhaps three or four years. Have any instances come to your knowledge, of abuses in issuing summonses ? — Oh, yes ; summonses have been issued for very ti-ivial matters. Favouritism subsists in the south, that is very little aggravated by any religious differences ; but it is sometimes tinged with that. Has the authority of magistrates been in any degree perverted, so as to turn it into a grievance in this respect ? — Yes ; my opinion is, that the magistrates, taken all together, have not that feeling that men ought to have, who hold any species of judicial station; there is not the generous sentiment of abhorrence of wrong and oppression among the class of men who are magis- trates in Ireland, which there ought to be. It is a convenient thing for a man to have a commission of the peace in his neigh- bourhood ; he can make those he dislikes fear him, and he can favour his friends ; a great deal of that prevails, and must neces- sarily prevail, in a state of society such as subsists in Ireland. Can you mention any instances in which the judicial autho- rities of magistrates have been abused ? — The instance, I gave, was one in which judicial authority was abused ; we have com- plaints professionally coming constantly before us, of the modes of inflicting fines for various offences ; and we have reason to be- lieve, the complaints are well founded, though it is almost im- possible to procure redress for them. DAXIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 165 What opinion prevails among the lower orders of the people, in respect of the administration of justice by the magistrates ? — The lower class of the people conceive, that it is not the justice of the case that is to decide it before the magistrates, but the per- son Avho has most favour and interest ; and the moment they have any thing to be decided before magistrates, they ransack the entire neighbourhood to get letters of recommendation to the ma- gistrates. Do they adopt any other means of influencing magistrates in their favour ? — It is familiar in belief, and I have no doubt of it, that magistrates have received money and various articles : where they could not give money, eggs ancl butter, and fowls, and pre- sents of various kinds. Do they ever give free labour ? — Yes ; and free labour where they can give nothing else ; and immorality where females are interested ; complaints of that description have been made, that they purchase favour in a mode which is not difficult to be under- stood. What effect has the system, that has been recently introduced of bringing magistrates together at petit sessions, produced on the general administration of justice? — I think that it certainly has improved it among the magistrates at petit sessions, there being several ; and it is likely, that there is at least even one of the better class, and he necessarily influences the conduct of the ses- sions ; but when they are disposed to act harshly at all, it protects them better to act in numbers than if one was to act alone ; it has that drawback. What impression has this alteration made upon the opinion of the lower orders of the people ? — I do not think that as yet it has made a much more favourable impression ; they conceive, that the questions are decided by the majority of votes, and they still canvass as they used to do ; it has not been in the south long enough in operation to make a favourable impression, at least to abolish and chive away the preconceived notions*. * The following is taken from Major Wilcock's evidence, p- 109. Do you consider that the magistrates (of the county of Limerick) were to be charged with a general negligence of their duties in the administering justice be- tween the lower orders ? — I think there was a very great cry out, that justice was not administered generally. Have you been told of any existing complaint ? — I have, I believe. Was there a complaint, with regard to the system of fees taken by magistrates? — Yes ; I did hear that some magistrates took fees, and took them, if I may be allowed the expression, in kind. Will you explain what you mean by taking fees in kind? — Getting their turf drawn home and other things. Any 166 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. In what manner was this alteration effected by government, of inducing the magistrates to act in petty sessions ? — As far as my knowledge goes, the judges, on going out on the circuits, were spoken to, to recommend it in the various counties ; and I know, in point of fact, the judges did so recommend, and repeated the recommendations. To what extent did that measure of revising the magistracy go, which was lately adopted in respect of purifying the magistracy ? — It struck out some very bad men ; it left in several ; and it was used occasionally, to deprive of the commission of the peace most excellent men, without any cause ; it was peculiarly severe upon the Roman Catholic magistrates. Mr. Garrett Nagle was a man of very respectable character, and of an old family ? — Yes, both ; but in the county of Cork, most of the Catholic magistrates were struck out, but some of them have since been restored. Do you know any thing with respect to the effect of the exclu- sion of the Roman Catholics, from the direction of the bank of Ireland ? — Yes : for the last two-and-thirty years Roman Catho- lics have been eligible to the situation of bank directors, but not one of them has been elected, although an immense deal of bank stock belongs to the Catholics ; in their fair proportion, it is im- possible to say, that they ought not to have two or three of the bank directors always Catholics; it was injurious to the Catholic commercial men during the war ; and in times of commercial spe- culation, I think the result has been highly beneficial to them, and accounts, in my mind, for the superior wealth of the Catholic commercial community in Dublin over the Protestant ; they were thrown upon their own resources, and obliged to make fortunes by degrees, and such are the men who keep their property. Any thing else ? — Assisting in planting their potatoes, and things of that kind. Were those fees taken upon the discharge of magisterial duty, or upon any other occasion ? — I cannot take upon me to say what the agreement between the grantor and grantee was, but it was for some service, I should suppose, rendered by the magistrates. Do you conceive that those presents were made for service rendered in the capacity of magistrate ? — I think they arose out of magisterial influence. Were those magistrates middle men, or resident gentry ? — They were resident gentry ; I think they possessed some property, but very much embarrassed. The observations which you have made, apply to the time before the reform of the magistracy ; before the introduction of petty sessions ? — Certainly. Was there any feeling in the county, with respect to the participation of some magistrates, in illicit distillation, and in the system of fees ? — There certainly was ; particularly in the western parts of the county of Limerick. Did that belief, within your observation, tend to deprive the magistrates of the confidence of the people at large? — I think it did. DANIEL O'CONNELL ESQ. EXAMINED. 3l6T Was not there a difference of opinion, with respect to the effect of the Act of 1793, as to its effect on the charter, in order to procure the admission of Roman Cathohcs to the bank direction? — There was; there were three opinions taken, two of them were unfavourable to the Cathohcs. Mr. Ponsonby, who gave one of the opinions, was afterwards himself astonished at having given it ; Avhether it is that we conceive ourselves better lawyers now, from attending more exclusively to the profession of the law, I cannot say ; but no lawyer at present in Ireland, has the least doubt on the subject, that they were ehgible all along. By the Act of 1807 or 1808, when the bank charter was re- newed, there is a clause saving all rights that existed under the former Act of 1 793 ? — As I remember there is ; I speak from recollection not recently refreshed ; if I recollect right, there was a clause brouglit in to empower Catholics to become bank direc- tors, and that Sir Samuel Romilly declared in the House, that it was not necessary ; I may be mistaken in that, but I understand it to be the universal opinion of the profession, and speaking of so humble an individual as myself, I have no doubt that Cathohcs are eligible. But no CathoHc has been, in fact, ever yet elected ? — No Ca- thohc in fact has ever been elected. Do you know whether, in the subordinate officers employed by the Bank, there is any instance of any Catholic being admitted to a clerkship, even in the bank ? — I understand there are six or seven instances, or from that to ten ; but the thing in Ireland which is most grievous, is not perhaps the letter of the law that excludes the Catholics, but the spirit in which the letter is acted upon. Do you know whether there are any other instances in which the Act of 1793 rendered the Cathohcs admissible to offices not immediately under the government, but in different departments, to which they have never been admitted ? — To franchises, such, for example, as the freedom of the city of Dublin ; for the same period the Cathohcs have been admissible to the freedom of the city of Dublin, there has not, I believe, been a single instance of a Cathohc obtaining that right ; in general, the persons were too poor to enforce it. At my own expense, I found a man of the name of Cole, and I got a peremptory mandamus from the King's Bench about five years ago, but he died in a fortnight after ; and from that until the present year the matter rested, when some means were found to bring on the question again. We have ob- tained a mandamus. It is not returnable as yet ; it will be re- turnable the next term. In a case in which the individual had been a Protestant, he would have been admitted at once, and it 168 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ.. EXAMINED. was so sworn in his affidavit, and not denied in the affidavits of the corporation, on showing cause, as I recollect. Do you know whether, in other corporations, the same adher- ence to the exclusion is still continued ? — In the corporation of Limerick, as much as in the other ; but that was rather to keep it in the hands of a particular family ; the religion mixed there with self interest. In Cork it is an inconvenience, but it is not so strict. I am not aware of any other corporation in which it has had that effect, and that particularly, because the corporations with which I am acquainted, are not, in general, open corporations, except Dubhn. Do you know the circumstances of the corporation of Water- ford ? — I am not acquainted with the details of that corporation ; but there are Catholic freemen there, and there are Catholic free- men at Cork. You have said, in answer to a question, that you attribute, in some degree, to the exclusion of the Roman Catholics from the Bank, the superiority of their wealth in Dublin ; on what obser- vation do you ground the alleged fact, that the Roman Catholics are superior.'^ — Many circumstances have made me very intimately acquainted with the city of Dublin, and the commercial men in it. There is, first, my professional opportunities ; one reason also is, the political part that I have taken, which has brought me into immediate connexion with the Catholic mercantile men. The op- position to us has made me know, tolerably well, the Protestant commercial men ; and both causes have given me a knowledge of what we call the liberal men. Now, from these causes combined, I am able to say, with a good deal of confidence, that the prepon- derance of the commercial wealth in Dubhn is with the Catholic merchants. My profession gives me private information of the amount of property. Do you mean to include in that, merely the Roman Catholics themselves, or that proportion of the Protestants supposed to be fa- vourable to their opinions ? — I mean to say, that the Roman Ca- tholics themselves have the absolute preponderance, in my judg- ment. Can you form any estimate of the commercial wealth of the city of Dublin, on the whole ? — I should be afraid to state any guess upon that subject. You have mentioned the spirit with which the laws have been administered in Ireland ; what influence has that had, in respect to the concessions made to the Roman Catholics in the year 1793.'' — It has not allowed those concessions to go fully into effect, as the legislature intended. The instances I have given are instances of that description, Avhere the legislative benefit has not been re- alized. There are others. DANIEL OVONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 169 Have you ever known, in the case of purchases made by Roman Cathohcs of landed property in Ireland, any exception taken to the purchasing of lands, the title of which depended upon confis- cation or forfeiture ? — No objection, certainly ; on the contrary, in advising a purchaser to buy, as a professional man, I infinitely prefer that it should have been a forfeited property, and for this distinct reason, that then the origin of the title is easily traced ; for after the usurpation, all those who obtained forfeited property took out patents for it, and therefore we easily find the patent, and direct the searches merely for subsequent periods ; so that I take it to be an additional advantage in carrying an estate to market in Ireland, that it was a forfeited estate. I myself, in the small property I possess, have lands that are forfeited. Have you ever known purchases of landed property in Ireland, to a considerable extent, made by Catholics.'' — O yes; and indeed, circumstances having placed me a good deal in the confidence of wealthy Catholics, and knowing a good deal of their purchases, I do not think I could call to recollection the purchases, by Catho- lics, of any thing but forfeited estates. The instances in which they have purchased them are beyond a doubt very numerous. I speak from positive knowledge. The Catholic body, as a body, would have no interest in re- versing the forfeiture ? — The Avealthy Catholics would be ruined by it. Have you any means of informing the Connnittee, vvhat pro- portion the property that never was forfeited bears to that which was? — It must be extremely small. I know of but one instance within the scope of my knowledge, of a property that never was forfeited, and I possess that myself. Then the inference to be draAvn is this, that almost the whole of Ireland has, at one time or other, been forfeited .'' — I believe the whole of Ireland has been two or three or four times forfeited, the northern forfeitures were, many of them, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth ; the southern were at the Usurpation, and again at the Revolution. During the reigns of James the First and Charles the First, there were immense forfeitures, both in the north and in Connaught. There were some in the reign of Edward the Sixth ? — Yes ; those were principally church lands. The quit rents, which show pretty well what estates have never been forfeited ? — I take the distinction between crown rents and quit rents to be this : crown rents show where it was forfeited ; quit rent, in its signification, was a kind of composition for a bad title, for quieting the title, and may exist as well after forfeiture ^s in lands not forfeited. 170 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESa. EXAMINED. Is it within your knowledge, that there is a considerable sum lent out by Catholics on mortgages of estates, in addition to the land purchased by them ? — Very considerable, in addition to their landed property. Except in Dublin itself, the Irish Catholics have not, until latterly, got into the habit of placing their money in the funds ; they have lent their money on landed security. Judgments and mortgages were, till lately, considered nearly equal in value, in practice in Ireland. Are there not a considerable proportion of the tenantry greatly interested in the present state of things, by the possession of very long leases ? — There are ; and on forfeited estates I am quite convinced that any measure so ruinous to all the wealth and pro- perty and intelligence of the Cathohcs in Ireland, as any attempt to get back for the old proprietors, if they could be traced, the forfeited lands, could not be devised ; in short it is a thing utterly impossible. Do you believe that any attempt to do that, would create gene- ral alarm among the Catholic body in Ireland ? — I am convinced it woidd not only create general alarm, but that if they had the least notion it would be done, there is nothing which would excite to actual civil war so soon. Can you institute any comparison between the state of Catholic property now, whether landed or personal property, with what it was previous to the year 1778 ? — In numbers or numerically, I cannot do it ; but it has increased (the only phrase at all to express such increase is,) enormously, and it is increasing every day ; the Union has tended very much to increase the resident Roman Ca- tholic property in Ireland ; it drained off for ever}^ purpose of co- lonial government, and from the expectation of promotion in the army and navy, the Protestants; the Protestants being of a wealthier class, Avhen the wai* prices fell, they could not endure the misery which the Roman Catholic peasant endured from habit, and therefore they auctioned off every thing, and went off to America in numbers; these things, as far as I have observed, have a daily tendency to increase the resident numbers strength and wealth of the Roman Cathohcs in Ireland, as compared with the Protestants. As compared with the period antecedent to 1778, your opinion is, that the CathoUc property, in proportion to the Protestant property, is infinitely greater now than it was then ? — Beyond any possible comparison certainly, and that applied to every kind of weakh ; the Catliolic commercial property was very much shaken before 1778, by the decisions, wliich made judgment debts disco- verable ; which means, that when a Catholic liad a certain kind of property, any person filing a bill in chancery, merely stating DANIEL 0'*CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 171 the owner of the property to be a Catholic, and that he, the plaintiff then M^as a Protestant, he Avas entitled to a decree for the property. The state of the law before 1778 was such, that accumulation of property in the hands of a Catholic was difficult? — Of landed property impossible, but even of personal property, the moment they laid it out on any security affecting land, and a judgment in • our country is not a lien on land, but is convertible into a lien, it was held that the convertible nature of the judgment into a lien on landed property, though not brought into action by what we call an elegit, still rendered it discoverable. Are the Committee to understand, that it is your opinion, that of the emigrants, a much greater number of Protestants have gone to the Colonies and the United States, than Catholics ? — A great number of poor Catholics, but of the wealthier yeomanry a greater number of Protestants ; for the Catholic yeomanry ai'ose only during the war, and they descended more easily into an inferior station than the Protestants, who had never been in so low a state. You have stated that many Roman Catholics are very unjustly excluded from being members of particular coi-porations in Ire- land ? — In the city of Dublin especially ; raid I understand Derry, but I may be mistaken. Are you to be understood to state that to be more in practice than in law ? — The law certainly does not exclude them. Has any remedy ever occurred to your mind to prevent this practice ? — Yes. Have the goodness to state it ? — By making it punishable by a pecuniary fine, to refuse the undovibted right of a poor man, and by giving double or treble costs, which would easily encourage respectable attorneys to speculate, by advancing their own money to enforce the right ; if treble costs were given, the attornies would be natui'ally looking out for the clients. Do you think that woidd be a perfect remedy in all cases ? — I think it would be an excellent if not a perfect remedy, because it would go to the extent of the evil ; perhaps if I had the preparing an Act of Parliament, some legislative provisions to facilitate the modes, so as to prevent the apphcants from being defeated in matters of form, where in substance they were correct, might be made; but Avith the two things together, preventing the ri^ht being impeded by mere technical forms in the corporation, with which by-the-by, a man Avho is not already in the corporation, cannot be so well ticquainted, and a proA'ision of tliis kind, that every question of right should be the matter tried, and tried in one of the superior coiu'ts, for example, the court of King"'s Bench, and there need not be a better, the thing would perhaps approach 172 DANIEL OVONNELL, ESG. EXAMINED. to perfection ; but we should not do any thing to encourage per- sons not entitled to be the right, unjustly to claim it ; that would be an evil. Have you ever looked at the Act which has been passed here, for the admission of freemen, or for the regulation of their claims, in the town of Coventry ? — Never, I have not seen it. Do you apprehend it would be a beneficial regulation, if in every corporation, they were bound to examine the claims of freedom, at the first meeting after the petition for freedom was presented, previous to doing any other business, save and except the election of mayor or sheriff? — I think that certainly would prevent what is called in Ireland " cushioning," a technical phrase, referring to the not deciding upon the claim at all ; that is a practice which has been much complained of. Do you think that if means can be devised to prevent the ap- plication of the corporate funds by the corporation, to the vex- atious defences set up against applications for freedom, that would have a beneficial effect ? — O, certainly ; if I had had it in my contemplation when I answered the question awhile ago, I Avould have added, that it would be a great additional advantage, if, where an unfounded resistance to a just claim was made, it might be in the power of the judge to certify his opinion of the verdict, and then that the individuals should be themselves responsible, as Avell as the corporation funds, and that the corporation might have a remedy over for the costs which they were put to, against the individuals ; a legal provision to some such effect, would pro- bably diminish the resistance to the claims of poor men. Have there been many applications within your knowledge, to the court of King's Bench, against the corporation of Dublin for refusing admission to that body ? — Very few ; I have known but of two instances of Catholics applying. Coles, the man for whom I applied, had an unquestionable right, but he never would have applied if I had not done it at my own expense ; the Adcocks and Henderson, for whom we lately applied, had certainly a right, but they never would have applied if Ave had not done it for them. They were the children of Protestant parents ; their father had exercised the right till the very moment of his death, and die grandfather in the case of Adcocks. Do you recollect any case of an application in respect of the corporation of Derry ? — No, I do not know it ; I have not heard much of Derry, beyond what I have already stated. Have you known of applications made for the franchise in other cities, besides Dublin ? — Limerick is familiar to me. Those applications have been continued for many years ; have they not? — Those applications have been continued for many ^ears ; the Limerick corporation^ being experienced in the modes DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 173 of delay, and they have used an extreme deal of ingenuity to in- terpose delays ; they have, under the appearance of fairness, insti- tuted tribunals to try the right tliemselves, in the first instance ; the real meaning of Avhich is, a tribunal to exclude, in all possible cases, as many persons as possible. Are you quite sure that the Adcocks and Hendersons were Catholics ? — I am quite sure ; I prepared their affidavits, and saw the Adcocks take the Catholic oaths. Do you know any thing of the case of a Mr. Kirkland.'' — Yes ; I know Mr. Kirkland very well. He is a Protestant .'' — He is a Protestant, but I do not know of what class ; all Protestants are on an equality in Ireland as to civil rights. He has apphed to the corporation of Dublin for his freedom ? — I understand he has applied, and I believe more than once, but he certainly has applied, and I understand he has been refused ; he has given proofs of what we call liberality, and that is almost as bad as popery in the eyes of the corporation. Do you know any thing of the foundation of his claim for ad- mission .'' — No, I do not. Do you think it impossible that the corporation of Limerick, in instituting the tribunal to try the right, had nothing else in view but to defeat it ? — I have known a great deal of the corporation of Limerick, and I am quite convinced that they had nothing else in view ; they have used every species of dexterity for years to avoid the trial of the right, and to leave the corporation and its property in the hands of an individual, who appoints the sheriff, and every thing of that kind. I was present when a gentleman declared, that his uncle had not nominated the two sheriffs, for it was he who had nominated them ; that his uncle had given him, for two or three years, the nomination of mayor and sheriffs ; this occurred in a court of justice. On what occasion was that ? — The name of the case was "Lord Kiltarton against Mr. George Pitt," a barrister ; Pitt was sued as assignee of a covenant. The case was tried before my Lord Chief Baron ; we, for the defendant, challenged the array of the jurors, on the ground that both sheriffs had been nominated by Lord Kiltarton, the plaintiff; and when the challenge was given in, the gentleman I allude to (I do not wish to mention his name), got up, and said in open court, " Do not persevere in that challenge, for, upon my honour, for the last two or three years, my uncle has given me the appointment of mayor and sheriffs, and all the mem- bers of the corporation ; and it was I who nominated the present sheriffs, and not my Lord Kiltarton." What was the year in wliich this happened ? — I cannot mention the year, but I believe about 181 1 ; it was at least as early as that. 174 DANIEL ©""CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Do you put the corporation of Dublin and the corporation of Limerick on precisely the same footing ? — By no means. The corporation of Limerick has been the property of a single indi- vidual, its revenues and all ; the cor})oration of Dublin certainly has not ; it has belonged to a party, but not to an individual. You do not think the cases are in any degree parallel .'' — It would be going too far to say they are not, in any degree, parallel ; they are parallel to a certain extent ; the lines extend the same way, but they are by no means co-extensive. Have you ever known of any Catholic sitting upon the com- mission grand juries in Dublin .? — I have heard of CathoKcs, I think, sitting upon the commission grand jury ; that has been a disputed question ; but my own recollection is, that on the com- mission grand juries they have, but on the term grand juries, in the city of Dublin, never ; though for thirty-three years they have certainly been eligible to that situation. Do you suppose the reason of that to be, that in the term grand juries they have the power of raising money on the citizens by presentment, and not on the commission grand juries.? — I do not think Catholics would have been on the commission grand juries, if they had any power of raising money, or the general power of appointing to various offices ; the term grand jury in Dubhn has a great deal of patronage, as well as the power of taxation to a great extent ; it is, in my humble judgment, very badly consti- tuted; there are men of very small property upon it constantly, while Cathohcs of great wealth, who are taxed by those men, are never on such grand jury. Do you find that that exclusion extends as much to the rich Protestant merchant, as to the Catholic merchant ? — There are rich Protestant merchants excluded certainly; but if a rich Pro- testant merchant thought it wise to meddle in corporation politics, he might be easily upon it, unless he was a gentleman who took what we call the liberal side ; but any Protestant merchant, who chose to meddle in corporation politics, of wealth, would easily be upon those grand juries. The members of that grand jury are principally supported by offices under the police aldermen and sheriff's peers, and so on. Do not those grand jvirors principally consist of the corporate offices ? — Yes. Is it not Avithin your knowledge, that the greatest proportion of the wealth of Dublin is excluded from those corporate offices ; — Practically I think it is, for the corporation is in general consti- tuted of men not wealthy, or not commercial men ; but that is because they are excluded by reason that several of the wealthy Protestants do not think it worth their while, and not having an adequate object to become corporators ; those poorer persons make OANIEL O'CGNNET.L, ESQ. EXAMINED. 17-5 money of it, and have patronage which is equal to money ; they therefore devote themselves to the measm'es which bring them for- ward in the corporation. Do you tliink that because a man in Dubhn is a Catholic, what- ever his wealth and respectabihty may be, he is more excluded from sitting on those grand juries, which have the power of raising vast sums of money, than a Protestant ? — O, certainly, much more ; for example, the law as it stands at present precludes him from any office in the corporation: a Catholic at present cannot be mayor, or sheriff, or alderman, or common council-man ; he cannot be master or warden of any of the guilds ; he can hold no situation in the corporation but that of mere freeman ; and as the grand jurors are constituted almost entirely of corporation official men, therefore they are infinitely less likely to be on the grand jury than Protestants of any class. Does there not exist as much dissatisfaction among the wealthy Protestant community, at being excluded from those grand juries, as exists among the Catholics ? — I do not think the degree is as great ; there does exist dissatisfaction certainly. I believe the wealthy Protestant merchants concur with the Catholics in being dissatisfied with the present system, and are much dissatisfied with it ; but this dissatisfaction is imbittered to the Catholic by reli- gious dissension, to a degree which increases the unpleasantness of the feelinor a great deal. Is It your opinion, that there is no remedy for those inconve- niences that arise out of the corporation system of government, ex- cept by a total change in the charter of incorporation ? I do not think a total change at all necessary ; I think by a fau' and liberal spirit actuating the government, and particularly the not giving promotion in the variovis offices in the patronage of government, to violent partisans of any kind, much may be done to bring the corporation of Dublin to be practically useful ; but I think, as the offices are given only to those who distinguish themselves in a par- ticular way, it is a stimulus to that course. Can the government prevent the coi*poration distributing the offices in their gift, as they like ? — The government of Ireland, I take it, have complete control over the corporation of Dublin ; for there are so many offices in the gift of government, removeable at pleasure, to be given to Dublin corporators, particularly those con- nected with the pohce, that if the government chose to point out that the)^ should shape their course in a different way, the thing would be done in half an hour, as L conceive; I mean, very speedily. Do not you tliink, that some events have happened lately, which prove that the government have not that complete control over the corporation ? — I tliink not ; the Irish government is divided ; there is a certain portion of it with which the corporation acts, and 176 Caniel o''connell, esq. examined. whose power enables the corporction to act against another portion of it, You have stated, that Protestants are excluded as well as Catho- lics from serving on the different grand juries, as being what you call liberals ; you mean by that, those that are considered generally favourable to the Catholic claims ? — I do. Do you conceive that, under the present system, that prejudice exists against the admission of Protestants into any offices, who do not maintain opinions favourable to the Catholic claims? — Oh, yes ; so much so, that it would be utterly impossible for any man who entertained an opinion favourable to the Catholics, to become a sheriff of Dublin, utterly impossible ; on the contrary, no man can now be sheriff of Dublin, who does not give an unequivocal pledge of his hostility to the Cathohcs. Does that extend to all offices, to that of Lord Mayor ? — No ; the Lord Mayor is generally taken in a certain rotation. There are some aldermen, liberal ; Alderman M'Kenny is a liberal man, and Alderman Smyth, the late Lord Mayor, also. Are the majority of the aldermen supposed to be liberal ? — The majority of the aldermen are supposed to be liberal, or at least disposed to liberality. Explain how you account for the circumstance, as no person can be alderman who has not served the office of Sheriff, of its being necessary to give that pledge, before men are elected Sheriffs ? — The pledge has been of a later date. There was a time when a better feeling existed in the corporation of Dublin ; and the revo- lutionary pi'inciple, which had a bad effect elsewhere, made a kind of community of feelings among the Irish, in many instances ; and there were a class of men who grew up and got into wealth, being- corporators, who, without going to the extent of revolution, had liberal pohtical notions generally, and some of that party have got into the court of aldermen; they are most worthy and excellent men. What is the pledge of hostility which a high Sheriff' of Dublin is obliged to give, before he can fill that situation ? — He is obliged to give a pledge of toasting at all public dinners, that which is con- sidered, and intended, as an insult to the Catholic population, "The glorious and immortal memory.'" Do you consider drinking that toast, a pledge of hostility against the Roman Catholic population of Ireland ? — It certainly is in Dublin, and generally, in Ireland it is considered so, and, as far as I have ever heard , intended as such ; I never knew any man give it in public, that did not mean it so. " The glorious memory," is, the health of King William ? — " The glorious memory,''"' is not the health of King William alone, for it is current in Ireland with the brass money and wooden shoes, popery and slavery, and a great deal more. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. ITT What is the date of that pledge ? — I cannot exactly say. In the south it would not be done at all. Do not Roman Catholics frequently drink the health of King- William ? — I have known Cathohcs give the health of King Wil- liam, as I should give it myself, as an assertor of the principles of civil and religious liberty. Do you think it is ever drunk with that feeling by the high Sheriff of DubKn ? — Never ; on the contrary, the high Sheriff of Dublin drinks it with a view to put down civil and rehgious liberty^ Can you say what is the sense in which a man drinks a toast ? — Yes ; from the general tenour of a man's conduct, and the pre- ceding discourse ; and many of those gentlemen to whom I impute that, would be greatly astonished, if I formed any other notion of it. On what occasion does the Sheriff give that pledge ? — There is, generally, a meeting at Morrison''s, previously to an election of sheriffs, of the gentlemen who influence the elections in the com- mon council : they arrive about the hour of eleven ©""clock, and they canvass who shall be sheriff; and no man has any chance, at present, of succeeding, imless he gives the pledge ; and when the corporation meet, it is announced openly, that he has pledged himself to give that toast. Has not " The glorious memory"" been drunk by the corpora- tion of Dublin for many years ; is it not a sort of charter toast ? — I do not think it has : the impression upon my mind is this, for some time after I was called to the bar, I do not think it used to be drunk ; and, certainly, it was given up for some time. Do you believe that the corporation of Dublin, or any other gentlemen, could really intend to give that toast as an offence to the Catholics ; or is it not more likely, that the Catholics have taken tliis as an offence to themselves ? — Oh, no : certainly they mean it as a sign of superiority and triumph, and that they deter- mine not to allow the civil equalization of things that we are seeking for ; it is a kind of Shibboleth of party, denoting foregone triumph, and bespeaking future degradation to us. Are those feelings expressed in the toast, as announced ? — In general they are ; and, as appears by the newspaper reports, in the most offensive shape. We know of them, of course, only from the newspapers ; they are generally accompanied by very violent de- clarations of hostility to the Catholic claims. What do you conceive to be the date of the Orange Associa- tion ? — About the year 1795 is the date of the Orange Association. Have you any doubt that that toast has existed, and been the usage, ever since the reign of King William ? — I am sure that par- ticular toast has existed ever since the Revolution ; that is the reason that quite convinces me of its offensive nature, for it was a kind of charter toast after the violation of the treaty of liimerick, N 178 DANIFL O'CONNFLL, ESQ. EXAMINED. and the enactment of the penal laws ; it was one of the pledges that kept men together during that period, when the Cathohcs were thus excluded, and all the invasions upon their properties and rights committed. The Committee may collect, that it has not been taken up as a recent invention, for the purpose of insult, but merely persevered in .'' — Persevered in ; and felt more, as the government and the law have become favourable to the Catholics : while the govern- ment was hostile to the Catholics, the individuals giving tliis toast were considered quite in accordance to the government, and not noticed ; but when the law put the Cathohcs, to a certain extent, under the protection of government, and we became, to a certain degree, subjects, the Orange party, with their great and volunteer association going beyond the law, and threatening us beyond it, the toast had an effect ^vhich it had not before. Do you beheye that, in point of fact, the Cathohcs used to take offence at it, thirty or forty years ago ? — Yes, I am quite sure of that. I have known among Catholic gentlemen, and persons of an Orange cast, quarrels arising constantly ; and their considering it a personal offence, and retaliating in an offensive manner on Pro- testants who pledged that toast in their presence. Have you not heard, that about thirty or forty years ago, the Roman Cathohc gentlemen used to join in drinking the toast .'' — Yes, as " The glorious memory" ; after the year 1782, there was a better spirit created in Ireland between the Catholic and Pro- testant ; they almost forgot their dissensions : and at that period, if " the glorious memory" had been given in the presence of a Catholic, he would have joiw'ed in it ; for, after all, the spirit of civil and rehgious liberty is as dear to us as to the Protestant. Do you not believe, that the Roman Catholic population in Dublin used to turn out, and go round the statue of King William on his birth-day ? — Yes ; the Catholics at that period, fired over the statue of King William, and joined in it heartily. You state that the corporation of Dublin were encouraged in illiberahty, by a portion of the government ? — I state that as my opinion ; and it is very strongly my opinion. Upon what facts do you form that opinion ? — Knowing that there is a portion of the government of Ireland, what we call " Hberal," and conceiving, and in the same manner knowing that there is a portion which we call " illiberal," and seeing that the men get promotion in the city of Dublin, m^io belong to the illiberal party, I think, to my mind, there is not so decisive a proof of en- couragement as giving office and emolument. Can you state the cases in which that has been done ? — It is not pleasant to name individuals, but I will name Alderman Darley for example ; he is notoriously an extremely ilUberal person, he DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 179 has lately been promoted, by getting an additional office, estimated at 760/. a year; Alderman Fleming Avas the rival candidate, but Alderman Darley was preferred by the illiberal and more powerful part of the Irish government ; the contrast between the two is very striking to us, and yet Alderman Fleming's liberahty was not so very decided, that it ought to have much injured his promotion. Is that the only instance ? — No ; but take them all round, I do not think you will find one of the liberal party in office ; at least it does not strike my recollection, that there is one of the liberal party holding one of the offices government bestow. Alderman M 'Kenny is totally excluded ; Alderman Harty, who is liberal, is totally excluded ; Alderman Smyth, I believe, has got no situ- ation imder government, and he is liberal ; and I undertake, if the names are mentioned of those who hold the offices in the gift of the Irish government, they would all be found to be the fiery partisans of the Orange faction. Can you state how many cases have occurred during Lord Wel- lesley's administration ? — I cannot state how many, but all that occurred were of that description ; it would, however, be unfair to attribute it to Lord Wellesley personally. Can you conceive any reason, why Alderman Darley should be preferred to Alderman Fleming, beyond differences in then* reli- gious opinions ? — I cannot ; I am not in the state secrets ; but I believe Alderman Fleming to be a very worthy man. Have you any reason to believe, that for a great number of years back. Alderman Darley has ever attended any Orange lodge or society ? — Attending Orange lodges is not to my mind a criterion ; I suppose, since the passing of the Act of last year, he has not at- tended, but he is linked as much with the Orange party as possible. Have you any reason to think, that in any one instance, in the discharge of his duty as a magistrate. Alderman Darley has ever shown any favour or partiality to a Protestant, rather than a Ca- tholic ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted Avith the detail of his duty in his office, and besides, in his office, there is a barrister or two ; I do not insinuate that it is so, but certainly I would rather be an Orangeman than a Cathohc, if I was going into his office. That is your own opinion rather than a fact ? — Alderman Darley was an Orangeman notoriously ; some years ago, he was the person that immediately after the king left the room, when lie was in Ire- land, gave the offensive toast, insulting the king himself; the strongest Instance imaginable in my judgment ; so that it is not my opinion merely, but is founded on facts of a decisive and un- equivocal nature. Alderman Darley goes to the house of those who are not Orange- men, whereas he expects the Protestants to come to his own office ? N 2 180 DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. —I think he had no right to come to me in this country ; they do not arrest for constructive breaches of the peace. Will you give your construction of an Orangeman ? — Strictly speaking, an Orangeman is a person who has been sworn according to the ceremonies, which vary in the Orange lodges ; there have been, as I understand, five or six variations in the signs and pass- words of the Orangemen ; they were of a worse character, as I understand, formerly ; and they have become more mitigated in latter times. The Orange system is, to my judgment, something formed upon the freemasonry ; there is a grand lodge in Dubhn ; there are lodges held in the country, and affiliated from the grand lodge. No man, strictly speaking, is an Orangeman, but a man, who, at one time or other, had the password and sign, and had taken the Orange oath, so that he could go into a lodge, as a free- mason may go into their lodges ; that is in strictness my opinion of an Orangeman. There are outlyers who do not belong to a lodge, and I never considered those persons, though we may familiarly so term them, as Orangemen. Strictly speaking, do you think Orangemen, according to your definition, exist to a great number in Ireland ? — Yes ; the num- bers are so much exaggerated by the partisans, that I am not able to form a very decided opinion upon it ; I should take it there are from twenty to twenty-five thousand men affihated in the lodges in Ireland ; I must, of course, speak from conjecture on that subject. In applying the term Orangeman in all the discussions which unfortunately take place in Ireland, do gentlemen who take part in them confine themselves strictly to the persons Avho are mem- bers of that society, or do they apply the term to Protestants indiscriminately? — Oh, never; there is notliing better marked amongst us than the distinction betwixt Protestant and Orange- man ; for myself, some of my nearest relations, and most of my dearest friends, are Protestants ; it is universal, down to the lowest peasants to discriminate between Protestants and Orange- men in the southern provinces. Is there any intermediate class of Protestants which are neither what yoLi would ca.x liberal, nor yet fall within the description and definition you have applied to Orangemen ? — Yea, there is ; we make a distinction between Protestants and liberal Protes- tants, but we make a marked distinction between Orangemen and both those classes. A liberal Protestant in Ireland is an object of great affection and regard from the entire Catholic population; amongst ourselves we always talk of him as a protector and a friend ; a Protestant, who is not an Orangeman, is spoken of as a Stranger merely would be, but without feelings of hostility ; the DANIEL oVONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED, 181 Protestant who is an Orangeman, is considered as decidedly an enemy, and the extent of that enmity depends upon the peculiar education and habits of the individual who speaks of it; the peasantry speak of them as of Exterminators, I mean of a sworn or affiliated Orangeman. Do you think that if there are twenty-five thousand Orange- men in Ireland, scattered all over the face of the country, as they are in different parts of it, it is possible for them to produce all that disturbance of which we have heard in various speeches, in and out of Parliament ? — I believe as far as my evidence here goes, I have not attributed the disturbances to the Orangemen solely or exclusively ; on the contrary , the first day I was examined, I spoke of other causes. I do not know that It has ever been attributed to Orangemen alone ; and my opinion is, not that the disturbance is created merely by their being Orangemen, nor if the number was doubled, would it be created by that. Is not the Avord Orangemen frequently applied to persons, who though not members of an Orange lodge, are known by the vio- lence of their principles to be fit to belong to It ? — Yes, it is. Is It not applied to such Protestants as are adverse to the Ca- tholic claims ? — No ; there are many Protestants who are adverse to the Catholic claims, and are not considered as Orangemen ; no man is considered an Orangeman, Avho has not shown some activity in his resistance, and who has not marked in some way himself a distinction, or been supposed to have marked it, be- tween Catholic and Protestant, or at least, who is not at least accused of it. Do you think there are many gentlemen belonging to Orange lodges, who fill the situation of magistrate in the north of Ire- land? — I speak of the north of Ireland from information, not of my own knowledge ; I am therefore less competent to give ac- curate infornlation, but according to the Information I have, the impression made upon the Catholics, and those in particular who take an active part upon the subject, is, that there are a number of Orangemen in the magistracy of the north ; but the great evil which is complained of, is the number of Orangemen that are in the armed yeomanry. Do you know the amount of the armed yeomanry in Ireland ? — I do not ; the relative proportions of the north and south are very disproportionate; in the south the number of yeomen is small, the great proportion of the yeomanry are in the north. Supposing there are but twenty-five thousand Orangemen in Ireland, can there be a great proportion of them in the yeomanry corps ? — My opinion is, the greater proportion of Orangemen in Ireland are in the yeoma.nry corps, r ll^ DANIEL ©■'CONNELL. ESQ. EXAMINED. Have yon any facts by which you can justify that opinion? — Only the information which we constantly receive from the north. In many instances the Catholics complain to us, or to me pri- vately, and through the Catholic clergy. The information I thus receive, of acts of mal-administration of the law, and par- tiality, and of oppression of Catholics, and of favour shown to Orangemen ; such are the sources of my information, and ai-e my grounds for the opinions I express. Do you consider the dissensions Avhich unfortunately prevail between Orangemen and Roman Catholics, as in any consider- able degree instrumental in having produced the disturbances in Ireland ? — Yes, if not produced, greatly aggravated, and tended much to continue them, particularly by reason of the notion that the government was connected with the Orange system, and by that means creating a recklesmess in the minds of the peasantry, and exciting a perpetual and irremediable hostility, while the Orange system shall last ; but the disturbances of Ireland lie much deeper. They are created by the peculiar state of the country, by poverty, the nature of tenure, tithes, church rates, and various other matters. The Orange system aggravates and perpetuates the evil. Can your recollection assign any instance, in which it has ever become necessary to apply the Insurrection Act to any one of the northern countries ? — No. Do not you think that rather affords a presumption, that the dissensions between the Protestants and Roman Catholics have not been, in any considerable degree, the cause of the inducing the necessity of applying that Act ? — I do not think it does. There are more resident gentry in the north, and there is less disturbance Avhere there are resident gentry. There is a constant application of armed force in the north. The Catholics in the north are, I believe, more organized into ribbon-men, and the ribbon-men do not, if I may so say, choose to fritter away their strength in those driftless acts of outrage, which the peasantry in the south do. With respect to the stabihty of the country, if a foreign enemy were to invade it, the north is in greater danger from its Catholic population than the south ; they are better organized. We have a great deal more trouble to check ribbon- ism than to check whiteboyism in the south. By we, I mean the Catholic Association, and those who have taken an active part in Catholic politics. You consider the insurrectionary movements which have taken place in the south as distinct from ribbonism? — Entirely; the only feature they have in common is, that the insurrectionary jnovements in the south were also coupled witli secret association, DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 183 and oaths of obedience and secrecy : they have that feature in common. It is astonishing to what a degree of fidehty an Irish peasant obeys his oath of secrecy. In speakmg of the influence of the Orange association, in pro- ducing mischievous consequences in Ireland, do you think the Ribbon associations have been promoted by the Orange associa- tions .'' — The Ribbon associations owe their origin entirel}^ to the Orange associations ; and I even think, that if the Orange pro- cessions alone were suppressed, that would go very far to suppress Ribbonism ; but the men excuse themselves thus, that they must be prepared for the next twelfth of July, or fourth of November, or Derry day, or whatever they call it, when the Orange pro- cession is to take place. Do you know at what time the Ribbon association began in the north of Ireland ? — No, I cannot say when it began. My own opinion is, that it is a continuation of the Defender system, which immediately ensued on the original formation of the Orange as- sociation in the north, and was connecting itself with the French Revolution, looking at a complete revolution in Ireland, and a separation from England. The Defender association was at first confined to the lower classes, but had the bad feature of being almost exclusively Catholic, as the Ribbon sj'stfem is exclusively Catholic. Before the Defender system was put down, the Pres- byterians joined a good deal among the Defenders, and thus combined, they mixed with the United Irishmen, when the events of the rebelhon put down the Defenderism. Since that period, in proportion as the Orange irritation increased in the north of Ireland, has that of Ribbonism increased. Do not you think the extension of the Ribbon system, within the last few years, has considerably tended to spread Orangeism? — Unquestionably they act on eacli other ; the existence of Rib- bonism makes it necessary for one perhaps to become an Orange man, and the existence of Orangeism has certainly created many Ribbon men. Does not it appear that the outrages that have taken place, in the north of Ireland, have generally taken place in consequence of conflicts between the Ribbonmen and Orangemen? — No; a great many of them, in my opinion, and I have looked at them pretty closely, have originated M^ith the mere insolence of triumph of the Orangemen, speaking of the lower classes of them. In their lodges they work themselves up into a great hatred of po- pery ; they go out ; they are armed with muskets and ball cart- ridges ; and, at the slightest sign of disrespect to them, they fire at the peasants. Do you mean to say that they go out with ai*ms to fairs, for instance, where men of both political feelings assemble, tliat on&. 184 DAMIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. party goes armed and the other is unarmed ? — I have not the least doubt that if that were the subject of inquiry, it could be estabhshed, that the Orangemen go to fairs imarmed ; certainly the Catholics, many of Avhom are Ribbonmen, go equally un- armed, but the Orangemen, in general, leave their arms in a depot, about a mile or half-a-mile from the fair. In the evening particularly, a riot is easily excited, and the Ribbonmen are equally willing to commence it with the Orangemen ; then the practice has been for the Orangemen to retreat upon their arms, and take their arms and shoot away, and many lives have been lost. Will you mention any circumstances of that kind which has occurred ? — The names of the places are not familiar to me at this moment ; but in the county of Monaghan, six or seven lives "were lost, about eight years ago, in that way ; but I have no he- sitation at all in saying, that in the course of a week I can give many names of places where that occurred ; the facts themselves have come to us very distinctly. You stated your recollection of a riot which took place at Maghera, where the Orangemen went into that town, with arms in their hands, to attack the Catholics ? — No ; my recollection, but I speak from loose recollection, is, that the Orangemen were imarmed when the riot commenced ; my recollection is, that the Orangemen were the persons attacked originally ; and then, after the riot commenced, my recollection from information is, that they supplied themselves with arms. In that case had the Orangemen formed any depot of arms in the neighbourhood ? — So I understood. With reference to the possible events of that evening ? — Yes ; and there were five or six Catholics shot. AVere there anv Protestants shot ? — No, not one ; there could not be any shot, for there were no arms on the other side. In the case of Maghera, did the Orangemen go back to their houses to get their arms, those houses being in the neighbour- hood ; or had they previously prepared their arms in the depot, with reference to the possibility of their being obliged to use them ? — I imderstand they had left them a quarter of a mile or half-a-mile from the town, and left them in a depot ; not in their houses certainly, for they could not have gone there. That was the representation made in public. Was there any person of any note arraigned, for being accessary to this murder ? — There was a Mr. Kennedy, the son of a Presby- terian clergyman, arraigned for it ; he was acquitted, and I be- lieve honourably acquitted. Do you know the position of the town of Maghera ? — Not at all ; I have never been there. DANIEL O'CONKELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 185 One of the causes of the superior tranquillity of the north of Ireland, you state to be the residence of the gentry ? — So I have understood. A great many of those gentry are Orangemen ; are they not ? — Some of them are, I dare say. Did you not state the majority of magistrates, in the north of Ireland, to be Orangemen ?— I do not know that I said the ma- jority, from information perhaps I did ; but I said many magi- strates were, in the north. I would not say, if I did, on reflec- tion, that I apprehended the majority of them were; but many, and many active magistrates were. Is it not a matter of fact in Ireland, that at the time of the Defender system, to which you allude, the Orange Association lent much assistance to the government in the suppressing the rebellion ? — I do not think the Defenders made the rebellion ; the Defenders Avere merely organized when the Orangemen were desolating the country. The Orangemen, described by Lord Gosford in his speech, turned six or seven hundred famihes out of the county of Armagh, by wrecking their property, and in many instances undermining their houses, and threatening them with Hell or Connaught, without any other cause whatsoever but their being Roman Cathohcs ; to resist that persecution was the origin of the Defender system. The Defender system, as I un- derstand, commenced as a re-action to that, as a protection from that kind of system. At the time of the rebellion, in 1798, is it not a matter of notoriety in Ireland, denied by no man, that the Orange Asso- ciation did lend material aid to the government, in defeating the conspiracy at that time ? — My opinion is very much the reverse ; my notion of the notoriety of the fact is, that calhng it notoriety, is not an exact representation of the fact; the rebellion of 1798, commenced with the Presbyterians and Dissenters as United Irishmen ; the upper classes of the Catholics had no kind of connexion whatever with it in the north ; when the Dissenters, who had been united Irishmen, were defeated especially at Saint- field, and after the murder of Lord O'Neil by them, then they got protection by becoming Orangemen, and they joined most heartily in prosecuting and brii>ging to deserved punishment, in many instances, men who had joined them in rebellion ; but I think the rebellion of 1798, was very much brought to explode, to use an expression employed by an Orangeman in the Irish parliament, by reason of the Orange lodges and the Orange system. There were many Catholics among the United Irishmen, were there not ? — Scarcely any among the leading United Irishmen ; the leading United Irishmen were almost all Presbyterians or 186 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Dissenters; in the north the lower classes of United Irishmen were at first ahnost exclusively Dissenters ; it spread then among the Roman Catholics, and as it spread into the southern counties, and of course, as it took in the population, it increased in its numbers of Roman Catholics ; in the county of Wexford, where the greatest part of the rebellion raged, there were no United Irishmen previous to the rebellion, and there would have been no rebelHon there if they had not been forced forward by the esta- blishment of Orange lodges, and the whipping and torturing, and things of that kind. There Avere many Roman Catholics in the ranks of the United Irishmen, were there not ? — Yes ; but it is a singular fact, that the number of Roman Catholic gentlemen, who were engaged in the rebellion of 1798, was extremely few. At that period, the Defenders and Orangemen were openly engaged in the field ? — The Defenders have become United Irishmen, and they joined the Dissenting United Irishmen; I have heard, that the Defenders were originally Roman CathoKcs, and the Dissenters came amongst them, and then Defenderism was merged in the United Irishmen, and of course, the Orange- men being at the side of the government in the rebellion, the De- fender coalesced with the United Irishmen, and being United Irishmen, were of course against the Orangemen. They became opposed to one another ? — Yes, in open battle, more than once, as I believe. Do you not think a great deal of the ill-will, which you de- scribe as existing in the Roman CathoHc peasantry, in the present day, towards the Orangemen, may have originated in something of that kind ? — I do not think it can at all have so originated ; an Irish peasant is not a speculative character ; he has not leisure for much speculation ; the practical and continued instance of insult and triumph over him, is much more likely to stimulate him than any thing of that kind ; and I am sure they have totally forgotten the rebellion, and all interest in it. You are acquainted with the oaths of Orangemen, are you not ? — I have seen the printed oaths of Orangemen, and I had information, that the secret oaths were different; I have had that information from persons Avhom I have reason to confide in. You have had such positive knowledge on the subject of the Orangeman's oaths, that you do not hesitate to describe publicly what they are, and Avhat they are not ? — I do not know that I have described publicly the Orangeman's oaths ; I do not believe I have ; the Orangeman's passwords and signs, I have had from various sources. My first information was from a gentleman who is now dead. Captain O'Grady, of the Limeric Militia- Was he an Orangeman ? — No, he was a Catholic ; but he was DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMIilED. 187 in the north in the mihtia, and that regiment joined with the king's troops in putting doAvn the rebelhon. It was Captain O'Grady gave you your information ? — He was the first ; he has been dead many years. Have you had any other information on the subject ? — Yes, frequently. From Orangemen ? — Yes, from Orangemen. From such information as you could rely upon ? — From such information as I thought I could rely upon with great confidence, details given me upon the subject, and tracing out for example ; the system has changed four or five times. If you are reported correctly, you stated in a speech you made on Saturday, that you were ready to prove at the bar of the House of Commons, that one of the secret oaths of the Orange- men, was a verse taken from the 68th Psalm and the 23d verse, " that my foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same ? " — Not an oath at all ; and the very terms of the verse shew that it could not be part of an oath. Will you have the goodness to state, what part of the system it forms ? — A password it formed, as I understood, or something of that kind ; it does not at present ; it has been changed, as I understand. Are you prepared to state, that it ever was part of the Orange system in Ireland ? — It was a password ; I am prepared to state, from my information ; it w' ould be impossible for me to be an Orangeman, and therefore I can speak only from information- Was your informant an Orangeman ? — Yes, my informant Avas a person, who was stated to me to be an Orangeman. Your informant was stated to you to be an Orangeman ? — To have been an Orangeman. The informant did not give that account of himself, did he ? — I got in writing, from the informant upon that particular subject, the information ; I refused to see him, because, circumstanced as I am in Ireland, I do not like to hold personal intercourse. Do you believe he Avas an Orangeman ? — I do. What was his name ? — I should certainly wish not to mention that ; I pledged my sacred word of honour, that I Avould not mention the name of a person Avho came to me on this subject ; a most solemn pledge as a gentleman that I would not give his name. I gave money to my informer ; I was also to give more money, after giving as solemn a pledge as a gentleman could, that I would not mention the name ; but at the time I made the pledge, that he should come forward by svmnnons in a court of justice, for I v,ould not give any pledge that should exclude evidence from a court of justice. 188 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Do you mean that he took money for the information he gave you ? — He did. Can you state any other information he gave you ? — Yes, he gave me a detail of the making of an Orangeman at great length, the ascent to the hill of Bashan. Precisely, did he communicate to you the nature of the ques- tions by which Orangemen may know each other ? — Yes, the qviestions ; at that time he gave me in writing a detail of. Do you happen to recollect them ? — No, I do not ; but I have them. Would you recollect them, if you heard them ? — Probably not in detail, but it is likely that to-morrow I might have them ; but certainly I could get them by writing to Ireland. Was one of the questions, " Where are you coming from .''''''— I believe so. " From the deep," was that the answer? — Yes. " Where are you going to; to the hill of Bashan .?" — There Avas the hill of Bashan. " Was it a high hill ; a high hill even as the hill of Bashan ;" do you recollect whether that was the nature of the lecture ? — I do not. Was there any harm in the lecture, in any part of it ? — In the lecture itself none. Did you hear of any other in which there was harm ? — I got from one person a lecture, and from another a lecture, resembUng much that which was just said ; and I read it at the Catholic Association, and it was put into the newspapers. Your informant did not tell you that the words " the high hill, the hill of Bashan," and the password " Sinai," were the only words in the M^hole of the 68th psalm, that form a part of the Orange system, did he ? — One informant confined himself to that, but did not say they were the only words ; that informant, (for I am desirous to say every thing which I can, without a breach of faith,) I gave money to also ; that person I believe to be a person of the name of Tobin, the person who gave me the information now referred to ; and from the person whom I be- lieve to be Tobin, there was nothing of the 68th psalm, but some- thing so nearly resembling that which is now stated, that I have very little difficulty in considering it as identical. Are you much in the habit of getting information you pay for ? — It depends upon its nature ; I would not pay for it, if I did not think it was worth the money that I gave for it. How would such evidence be received in a court ? — It is con- stantly received in court in criminal cases, and necessarily re- ceived ; one would not have a single conviction in the south of Ireland of those horrible outrages, if the persons were not either DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 189 paid or expecting to be provided for ; they could not return among their friends again, government must necessarily provide for them ; but in my case, whether it was in a court of justice or not, I would not have the least hesitation in giving a large sum of money to have the Orange system explored ; I would give five hundred guineas willingly. Have you ever published the offer.? — ^Yes, I have made it known ; and I have had many offers wliich I have rejected. In making this information public respecting the Orangemen, which certainly reflects very nmch upon their character, do you not think it would have been as well if you had published the terms on which the information had been procured, as far as regards the Orange Association .'' — Certainly, if it had lain in my Avay I would ; I would not do any thing derogatory to any liuman being, without giving him perfectly fair notice at the time ; I originally published that in the Catholic Association wliich has been mentioned ; I also distinctly mentioned that I had given money for the information, and that I was to give more. If Lord O'Neill Avere to protest, or any other respectable Orangeman in Ireland, denying the fact which lias been asserted by you, that this ever was a part of the oath of an Orangeman, would you disbelieve his assertion ? — I would believe every thing that a gentleman in that rank of life asserted ; I would believe that he Avould not assert positively that which was untrue ; but this would remain on my mind, that the lower classes of Orange- men indulge in a system, and have tests and passwords, which the honoui-able member Avho has declared himself an Orangeman, (Mr. Brownlow) I am quite convinced would be incapable of acceding to ; I would not think existence worth having, if I could believe a gentleman of rank and station could assert on his honour what was not strictly true. Did you never hear of an Orangeman supporting the Roman Catholic claims ? — I never did. Did you never hear of the circumstance of some Orangemen in the House of Commons, who supported the Catholic claims ? — I never did. Is it a popular opinion in Ireland, that all the members of tlie House of Commons who resist the Roman Catholic claims, are Orangemen ? — Oh, certainly not. Not even a popular impression ? — Certainly not. Is not Mr. Goulburn called an Orangeman in Ireland.? — Yes. Is Mr. Leslie Foster called an Orangeman in Ireland ? — No, I never heard that Mr. Leslie Foster was an Orangeman, nor do I believe that he is. Is it your impression that Mr. Goulburn actually is an Orange- 190 DANIEL 0''C0NNELL, ESQ. EXAMTXED. man ? — It is my opinion certainly, that lie is not at present ; certainly not since the Act of Parliament. Or that he ever was ? — I heard from a person of high credit, that Mr. Goulburn said in his presence, that he had taken the Orange oath. Was that the same informant who has given you the rest of your information on other subjects ? — No, not at all. Was he paid for that information ? — Not at all ; he was a per- son incapable of being paid for any thing. You are persuaded that the information was not correct ? — If I had the honour of hearing Mr. Attorney- General say so, I would be most thoroughly persuaded of his veracity ; or if it were denied by any body that was authorized to deny it, I should cease to believe Mr. Goulburn to be an Orangeman. Have you ever heard that Mr. Dawson was an Orangeman ? — No ; I heard that Mr. Dawson was not an Orangeman. Is not he reckoned as bad ? — Oh uo ; he is reckoned bad enough, but not so bad as that. Mr. Dawson is a gentleman whom we expectj one day or other, to be voting for the Catholics. I am not without my hope of it. What is your impression, as to the extent of the Population in Ireland ? — My impression upon the extent of the Population of Ireland is, that it must exceed Eight Millions. On what do you found that impression ? — The parliamentary returns made it nearly seven millions. I am convinced that is extremely underrated in the county of Mayo. I have reason to believe, that during the distress of 1822, there were some Usts made by two gentlemen, peculiarly accurate in taking down the names of the persons relieved there. There were jealousies amongst those that received the English money, and they were, therefore, cautious in taking down the names of persons relieved. You mean the charity fund ? — Yes; the " English money" is another name for the charity fund. I understand, that the num- ber of persons relieved by name exceeded the Parhamentary return by something like eleven thousand; so that there appeared in that county, upon the number of persons relieved, eleven thou- sand more persons than the return gave in the entire county. Have you sufficient data, assuming the number to be eight millions, for stating to the Committee what you conceive to be the actual number of Pi'otestants and Roman Catholics ? — Those things must be conjecture, to a certain extent. I have seen, for a number of years past, a manifest increase in the relative propor- tion of Catholic and Protestant ; a very great increase of the Ca- tholics, and a positive diminution, within my knowledge, of the number of Protestants in the southern district, and in Dublin. The amount of the Protestant population, in the different pro- DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 191 vinces, varies considerably, of course ? — Yes ; and the Catholic population is increasing in all. We were about, if we could, to enumerate the Catholics and Protestants throughout the country. If there had been perfect tranquillity, and no danger of the thing being abused, it Avould have been done by the Catholic Associa- tion; but in the southern counties, the relative proportion is enormous. Which do you conceive to be the most Roman Catholic county in Ireland? — It is impossible to say that. Waterford is an ex- tremely Roman Catholic county ; Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Cork, is each a very Roman Cathohc county ; and there is a great deal still of resident Protestant wealth. Galway, Tipperary, are very Catholic counties. Do you conceive the proportion of Roman Catholics to Protes- tants is the same, or nearly the same, in the counties you have enumerated.'' — It is nearly the same. In my own barony of Iveragh, in the county of Kerry, the return of the population, as I remember, was 14,680; there are about 72 Protestants ; and there are no Protestants in the world, less apprehensive of Roman Catholics, or Papists, than they are. "NVe live in perfect harmony. Do you conceive that to be a fair specimen of the relative pro- portions of the county of Kerry ? — Yes, very nearly. What should you conceive, in the county of Kerry, may be the proportions of Protestants to Cathohcs ; do you think twenty to one ? — They are fifty to one, and probably a hundred to one, in the whole county. There were many Protestants formerly there, whose famihes have become Roman Catholics. Before the elective franchise was extended to Roman Catholics, the Roman Catholics had Protestant freeholders about them. They brought in Ger- mans called Pallatines, in the south. All the family descendants of those persons have become Roman Catholics, almost without exception. If you Avere to be informed, on sufficient authority, that in some of the counties you have enumerated, the ratio of the Pro- testants to the Roman Catholics was five times greater than in others, would you beheve it ? — Yes, I would. My arithmetical information on the subject is so loose, as that I could beheve it from authority ; for example, the proportion in Galway I take to be greater than Tipperary. In which do you conceive it to be greater, in Kerry or in Clare ? — I am unable to answer as to the relative proportions. The proportion of Catholics I know to be very great in each ; perhaps there arc more Protestants in proportion in Clare. What do you conceive to be the most Protestant county in Ireland ? — I am unable to say that ; for it would fix its station 19^ DANIEL 0''C0NNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. in the north, which is the part of Ireland with which I am the least acquainted. Were you ever in the county of Artrim ? — Never. Were you ever in the county of Down ? — I cannot exactly say ; if I was, it was only passing to Monaghan. Were you ever in the county of Derry ? — No. Were you ever in the county of Armagh ? — Never. Were you ever in the county of Fermanagh ? — Never. Were you ever in the county of Donegal ? — Never. Were you ever in the county of Tyrone ? — Yes ; passing from Monaghan to Athlone. Were you never more in Derry, than merely passing through it? — No; I have never been in the north, except when going specially to Monaghan. Are you able, in any other manner than this, to form an esti- mate of the proportions of Protestants and Roman Catholics, in the north of Ireland ? — From information merely ; having a good deal of communication with members of the Catholic clergy, and with professional men from those counties, and with the indi- viduals belonging to it who were members of the Catholic Asso- ciation. The only information that I could give, would be derived from those sources, necessarily somewhat rude and indis- tinct ; and reading the statistical account of the parishes pubhshed by Mr. Shaw Mason. If it should be the fact, that the ratio of Protestants to Roinan Catholics in some of the northern counties, is three-fold greater than it is in others, could you name those counties in which the ratio was the greatest ? — I could not. Can you offer any opinion whatever to the Committee, as to the actual number of Protestants in the province of Ulster ? — I cannot. Could you, in the province of Leinster ? — I could not. Or of Connaught 'n' — No. Which do you conceive to be the most Roman Catholic dis- trict, the province of Munster, or the province of Connaught ? — I should think, pretty much on an equahty. But in these things I am speaking loosely, as a person would do who had other occupations to attend to, and no precise arithmetical data, at the moment, to go upon. Speaking loosely, what number of Protestants should you sup- pose there were in Ireland .'' — Fi'om my notion of the population, I should think, that if there were an enumeration, the Protestants of Ireland will not be found to amount to any thing hke a million, including Quakers and dissenters of every class. What proportion of the number should you suppose belonged to the Church of England .^—.- 1 should conceive one half belonged DANIEL o'*CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 193 to the Church of England, but not more ; the number in the Church of England is, I think, lessening in the lower classes of Protestants, and increasing in the higher. Have you any particular reason for assigning one-half as the proportion of the EstabUshed Church, rather than a thu-d or a fourth, or two-thirds or three-fourths? — Only that general im- pression, that by a number of particular facts from time to time, has formed on my mind nothing, with a minuteness that would belong to pohtical arithmetic. Can you give any information to the Committee, with respect to the relative proportion of property held by Protestants and Catholics there ? — No, not with respect to the relative propor- tions ; the only tiling I can say upon that is, that the amount of fee-simple estate in the hands of Protestants is much greater, in- cluding the estates of absentees ; but I know that the relative proportion is diminishing daily, by the increase and acquisition of landed property by the Catholics. Do you think the proportion is precisely in the inverse ratio of the population ? — Oh, not precisely ; but of the estates in fee, I should think it would be a very good general term ; but out of the fee, there are derivative interests of great value in the hands of Catholics, as the freeholds for lives, with or without a clause of renewal, and long terms for years. Would it be too great a proportion to say, that the property in the hands of the Protestants was, as compared with the pro- perty in the hands of the Catholics, as ten to one throughout Ireland ? — Of estates in fee I should take it that it would not ; my opinion is, that certainly the Cathohcs ai'e not seised in fee of more than one-tenth of the country, if so much ; but the derivative interests diminish the balance of Protestant property very greatly. Should you be surprised if any person informed you that there are counties in Ireland, in which the Protestant population, as compared with the Cathohc, is three to one ? — I should ; and I should be convinced in my mind, that that individual, if he was one of credit, was himself misinformed. I have no doubt upon my mind, that there is no county in Ireland in which the majority is not Catholic, and even where Cathohcs were, to a certain period, totally excluded. Until lately, the Catholics were not admitted into the town of Bandon, they are now the majority ; until lately, they were not admitted into Derry ; they are nearly equal, if not equal at present, according to a return which I saw some short time ago. Do you think that any person would be mistaken in his de- claration, if he said that in the county of Antrim the Protestants were three to one .'' — 'That would be my opinion. 194 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. The question indudes all, except Catholics ? — I should think so. Do you think you are correct in your calculation, that the members of the church of England are, with respect to Presbyte- rians, as one half of the whole Protestant population ? — I spoke from loose information upon that subject ; I do not mean to con- vey any idea of correctness or accuracy ; having to answer the question, I must answer it as nearly as I could. Have you registered any freeholders on your property in Ire- land ? — I have registered freeholders on the property which I ac- quired from my father ; on the property I have lately acquired fi'om an uncle, I have not as yet registered them. Did you pay the expense of registering them, or the freehold- ers ? — I paid the entire expense. What is the expense of registering a freeholder ? — The officers did not allow me to pay any thing ; the expense was merely the expense of taking the people, paying their expenses to the place where they were registered ; the professional man, who filled the forms, did not allow me to pay any thing. What is the expense, if it is paid ? — I cannot state that ; a hilling, I think, is to be paid to the clerk of the peace. Have you known many instances in which landlords have not egistered their freeholders ? — Oh, very many. Have you known many instances in which the freeholders have paid the shilHng to register themselves ? — Yes ; I have known an instance in which the freeholders did, and I know the peasantry are anxious to register themselves ; they feel the value of it. You think, that quite the lower class of the peasantry put a value upon their freehold ? — Oh, a great value ; they feel that it makes them of importance ; they must, once in seven years, be courted, and in the mean time be attended to. In point of fact, are they courted every seven years ? — Yes ; and even the landlords themselves court them when the election is going on. Is it very much the fashion, among the landlords, to canvass their tenants, or for any of the gentlemen proposing themselves as candidates, to speak to the forty-shillings freeholders on the subr ject ? — I do not think they speak to them individually, but I know that they court them, which was my expression ; the driver and the land agent go round to them. Are they not generally sent round to canvass the freeholders ? — ^Not to canvass at all, but they do go to the freeholders, and serve them ; they are, to a certain extent, obliged to look to the interest of the freeholders. Is the term in use ever, to " drive them in to vote .?"— Yes, I DANIEL 0"'C0NNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED* 195 have often heard that term, and I have seen it done ; that exists, I am told, a good deal in Connaught. Are there not many places where the freeholders are under such obligations to the landlord, that they cannot refuse to vote as he pleases ? — Certainly ; the landlord has gi-eat dominion over the freeholders ; so much so, that they are in many instances consi- dered part of the live stock of the estate. In those cases, do the freeholders put any great value upon their franchise ? — There the franchise is of value, for it gives, where it is bona fide, a term, a hfe; and in Ireland, where land is so valuable to the peasant having a long tenure, is always va- luable. The tenure is a freehold, whether it is a man's own Hfe or any other life which is in the lease ? — It is ; they say that any uncer- tain interest in point of law is a freehold for ever, for a life or lives, no matter of whom, but no number of years. Have you ever known an instance in which upon the falhng in of a lease, the land happened to be let from year to year for any time ? — The common practice, since the depreciation of prices, is to have a tenancy from year to year ; the leases which were made during the war prices, in the southern counties, were so high that the tenantry were unable to pay them ; where the landlords treated them well, they merely got up the leases, and they let the land from year to year at abated rents ; and since the better times, as they are called, have commenced, very few new leases have in ge- neral been made. The question refers to the case where a farm has gone out of lease, from the landlord not being able to determine immediately how to dispose of it, Avhether the tenants were left as tenants at will for a certain time ? — That is a very frequent case. Is there any great anxiety, on the part of those tenants, to have leases ? — Great anxiety ; all the peasantry in Ireland, I think, are extremely anxious to get a lease ; and for this reason, they have so httle capital that they have very little to lose, if the times should fail totally ; and if the times should rise, the advan- tage of the tenure is great. Supposing it were proposed to grant those persons a lease for twenty-one yeai's without a life, would not they be desirous that a life should be annexed? — Very desirous, in order to have a chance of an increased term, in addition to the twenty-one, and very desirous of having a freehold tenure. Does the elective franchise form a part of that desire ? — It does. You have mentioned, that the landlords court the freeholders ? — To a certain extent, they do. Does your experience in Ireland enable you to state, whether o 2 196 DANIEL o'*CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. any other but the landlord and the candidate, court the tenants prior to an election ? — Yes, those who take political interest in the event of an election ; in my own county, my brothers and myself court the freeholders universally ; and so in other counties. Can you specify any class of persons in particular, who very frequently court the freeholders? — No, not very frequently; but, conceiving I understand the drift of the question, I have not the least hesitation in meeting it, if it is put directly. It relates, I conceive, to the Catholic clergy. Do they very frequently? — Not very frequently, nor, until recent periods, scarcely at all; at present, and for some short time, they have ; and I think they are now much in the disposition of courting the freeholders. I think the disposition is increased to court the freeholders. Can you assign any reason for that increase of disposition on the part of the priesthood ? — Yes ; an increasing intelligence among the priesthood themselves; an increasing sense among the Catho- lics generally, of their degradation and the injustice done to them ; an increasing or increased unanimity amongst the Catholic body, enabling us to work more together, and to use, for what we con- ceive legitimate pohtical purposes, all the influence we possess, the deep and settled anxiety on all our minds to procure emanci- pation, that is, an equalization of civil rights. Are you able to specify any particular instance in which that interference prevailed ? — I understand it was successfully, and I think usefully, exerted in Sligo. I have known it exerted in the city of Cork with great success, and I think eminent utihty, in the return of Mr. Hutchinson ; to a certain extent, but not near so much as is supposed, it was used in the county of Dubhn ; but it is right to add, that I never knew an election yet, in which the Protestant clergy did not take a most active part, from the first to the last ; it was not so great in the county of Dublin, purely be- cause it was unnecessary ; we laymen did it ourselves. Have you not heard that it was in the county of Leitrim ? — It might have been so, but I have not it in my mind ; in Cork, it was principally managed by one of the cleverest, and I think one of the worthiest, men I ever knew, the present Roman Catholic bishop of Charlestown jn North America, the Right reverend Dr. England. Do you feel yourself at liberty, without infringing in the .slightest degree upon that feeling which the Committee would not wish to violate, to specify the modes by which the priests approach, and influence, and command the votes of the freeholders ? — Upon any subject connected with the Catholics of Ireland, their religion, or clergy, I beg to say, that I have not the slightest delicacy in giving the fullest and most entke information in my power, to the DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 197 fullest extent; I have not therefore the least objection to specify any thing I know ; and if I have a desire, standing here, it would be to be probed to the fullest extent. I should therefore be pleased that the questions should be put in the most direct shape. Will you have the goodness to specify the modes by which the priests approach, and influence, and command the votes of the freeholders ? — My answer to the question is, that the manner which they use is that of persuasion, by pointing out to the people the distinction between the candidates ; as, for example, shewing them that one is hkely to vote, or declared he will vote against the Catholics ; that the other has declared he will vote for their political interests ; but by persuasion simply. They never, in any instance within my knowledge or belief, and I am convinced it never has existed, that any of the rites or ceremonies or sacra- ments of the Church, have been prostituted for that purpose, or directed towards it in any tendency; I am convinced they have not. Do you recollect the general election of 1812 .'' — Certainly I do recollect that election. You were in Cork at the time, or shortly previous to the elec- tion for the county ? — I certainly was there shortly previous ; it is my circuit, and I stiU attend the Cork assizes. Were they shortly before the election ? — A few weeks before. Did you hear that the Roman Catholic priests had threatened to excommvmicate any of those who voted against one of the can- didates ? — I heard it, but I was quite apprized that it was per- fectly unfounded ; it would be very easy, on this subject, to give the most decisive information. I am quite sure that a Roman Catholic priest has not a right to excommunicate for a mere poli- tical matter, and he would, if he did, be instantly laid under an interdict by his bishop ; there is not one who has a franchise, Avho would not know that an excommunication for any political matter, would be ipso facto void. Did you hear whether they made use of any other threats from the chapels, from the altar.'' — I heard it rumoured about that time, but I am quite convinced that it was totally unfounded ; I am perfectly sure that either of the gentlemen who were the bishops, would not have allowed any such thing ; they were then the right reverend Doctor Moylan, bishop of Cork, as loyal a gentleman as ever lived, as pure and perfect a gentleman. I am quite convinced that he would have silenced any priest respecting whom such a fact was brought home ; and that the right reve- rend Doctor Coppinger, who is a gentleman of the very first class in point of family and education, he is the bishop of Cloyne, and he most assuredly would not have permitted any of his clergy with impunity to have taken such measures ; he is a man of great piety. 198 DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. You were in Cork while the poll was taking down, were you not ? — No, I was not. Did you happen to hear, that in any instances the Roman Ca- tholics had turned by force out of the booths, those who were about to vote for one of the candidates ? — I do not think I did, but that might take place ; in the best regulated counties, at elections there are riots. Have you known any instances of Roman Catholics having been, after an election, ruined by their landlords for having voted against them at elections ? — Yes. Have you known many such instances ? — No, I think not many. Do you think the Roman Catholic tenantry Avould be likely to endanger their ruin in consequence of such persuasion as you refer to? — No, I do not think they would; in the county of Cork, one gentleman, averse to the Roman Catholic interests, would bring five or six hundred Roman Catholics to vote for a member who in Parliament would vote against the Cathohcs. Have you not known many hundreds of Roman Catholics, forty-shilling freeholders, carried through the interest of the clergy agamst their landlords ? — No, I have not. Have you any doubt that many hundreds have been ? — Not through the interest of the clergy alone ; the clergy, when they take a part in elections, have influence ; and I beg to repeat, that it is only latterly, I think, that the disposition is increasing in Ireland, in consequence of the state of affairs, but they make part of the Catholic influence ; I do not think it has ever gone to that extent; several have in my judgment been so influenced, but to say hundreds is beyond my idea of it. Have you ever known instances of almost the whole tenantry of landlords being carried against him by the priests ? — I have heard of instances of that kind, and believe that such things have ex- isted, by priests aided by Catholic laymen. Do you think that mere persuasion would induce the tenantry of an Irish landlord to incur the risk of his displeasure ? — I do, certainly; I have seen intense interest in a forty-shilling free- holder, and he is after all so near the labourer, though there is a grade between them, that if his feelings are warm he will make the sacrifice, and become a labourer ; and then, on the other hand, the persons in whose interest he has voted, will be induced to pay a gales rent, which is the utmost that can be due of him, to clear him of rent, and then he is able to pay his rent in future, and his landlord has not dominion over him. Admitting that the Roman Cathohc clergy do not make it a matter of sacramental obligation, do you not believe that they have recommended it as a duty due to their religion, and as a DANIEL o'cONlfELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 199 service well pleasing to heaven, to take a particular course ? — I do not think they have recommended it more than I should my- self ; I think they have said, You are a Roman Catholic, and a man has asked you to vote who will vote against you ; it will not be just and honest to vote for a man, who in Parliament will vote against you. Do not you think an observation of that kind, proceeding from a Roman Catholic clergyman, would have all the effect of a com- mand, with a vast proportion of the Catholic tenantry of Ireland? — Certainly not all the effect of a command ; its influence would depend upon the sort of man the Catholic clergyman was, if he was a man devoted to the duties, it would have a great effect ; where he was at all relaxed in his conduct it would not have the least. As to the Catholic clergy in Ireland, their influence is in- creasing very much, from causes, in my judgment creditable to them ; they are educated at a much earher period of hfe from being educated at Maynooth, and having early education, and we conceive the Irish people have a propensity to make good use of their opportunities of learning ; they have become a much better class of men than they were formerly, they read a great deal. In the existing state of things in Ireland, do you conceive, that most of advantage or injury follows from the interference of the Roman Catholic clergy in elections ? — My opinion is, that at pre- sent it is all advantage ; I know they never interfere in doubtful or mixed cases, and that they interfere only where there is that de- cided hostility on the one part, and decided advantage to the Ca- thohc interest on the other, to the interest of emancipation on the other ; I think it is to that extent decidedly advantageous, be- cause I cannot conceive any thing more degrading than an unfor- tunate CathoKc peasant brought to the poll, to contribute to the return to Parhament of a man who will vote agamst Catholic rights ; I cannot conceive any thing more derogatory to human nature than that. Was not it a matter of notoriety in Sligo, that both the can- didates were as adverse to the Catholic claims as they could be ? — It was considered not ; it was considered, that the successful candidate would vote for them, and I think he will ; that was as far as I heard the impression. Do you conceive, that this influence of the Catholic priesthood in election matters would continue in its present state, if the ques- tion of emancipation were carried ? — I am convinced it would be totally at an end, by carrying the question of emancipation ; the causes which give it efficacy at this moment Avould thereby totally cease, and tlie effect wouki follow ; tlierc is not any thing like a blind submission of the Catholics to their clergy, not at all. Does your mind suggest any other cause which would survive the carrying the Catholic question, that could give to the Catholic 200 DANIEL 0''C0NNELL, ESQ,. EXAMINED. priesthood the power of influencing the electors ? — No ; I think it would be unwise in government, if emancipation were carried, (and until it was carried the Catholic clergy would not accept of a provision) to leave them unprovided ; and I think it would be extremely wrong in the government, to give them any part of the revenue of the present church establishment, and that they would not accept of it ; but I think a wise government would preserve the fidelity and attachment of the Catholic clergy, by what I call the golden link, by pecuniary provision, so that the government should be as secure, in all its movements towards Foreign powers, of the Catholic clergy, as they now are of the Protestant clergy ; that they should be, in short, a portion of the subjects of the go- vernment and the state identified with them. Is it your impression, that if the question of emancipation was carried, and there w^as an election to take place, in which a Pro- testant and a Catholic were candidates, the Catholic priest would not interfere ? — I am quite sure he Avould not interfere, if he were a respectable man, and that if he did his influence would be lost; that it Avould be ascribed to political motives ; that he would lose his character with his flock ; that they would understand there was nothing further between the two sects in political controversy. The Catholic laity of Ireland are most decidedly adverse to any other establishment of their clergy, than that which they would Avish the government itself should give them, by way of donation; because our wish wovild be, that the government should have proper influence over them, which a certain pecuniary connexion would give. Our wish would be, that the government should be strong by the combination of the subject. Our anxiety is, to be- come suljjects out and out, as the Protestants are. In the event of emancipation being carried, you do not conceive, that on the part of the Catholic clergy or laity, there would be an objection to receive stipendiary support from the state, provided the ecclesiastical subordination of the Catholic clergy was still kept up ? — I am convinced there would not, if it was regulated with the heads of our church, so as not to create an independence over the bishops in the priesthood, an independence which cer- tainly Avould be resisted by the bishops, and by the laity, as de- structive to religion, and an independence which would be equally iiijurious to the state, by creating dissension, and differences, and heart-burnings, and one that could not well be realized. The mode of provisions should be regulated by the bishops ; they should be the persons to come into contact with the government. There are not, in the world, a set of men more disposed to be perfect friends Avith the government tlian the Roman Catholic bishops. Do you conceive it possible for any proposition for the pay- ment of the Roman Catliolic clergy to be acceptable, either to the DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESa. EXAMINED. 201 clergy or the laity, independently of tlie question of emanci- pation ? — Without emancipation, it will certainly be rejected. It would not be entertained for a moment, without emancipation. If a clergyman accepted of it, though the bishop may keep him in the parisli, and though the people may, such of them par- ticularly as were of a religious cast, attend and receive spiritual assistance from him in cases of necessity, he would lose their con- fidence altogether ; he would be in a kind of civil excommu- nication, if I may use the expression, and certainly be totally useless, as holding any connexion between government and the people. It would be, in my opinion, an additional cause of irritation, to give the clergy a provision before the Catholics were emancipated. Have you had communication upon this subject, with the clergy high in the Roman Cathohc church of Ireland ? — I have spoken upon the subject ^vith those gentlemen. There will, some of them, be in town to-day or to-morrow; without pledging myself at all for them, I understand that their sentiments coincide en- tirely with those I have the honour to express. Have you had communication also with prelates, who are now no more ? — I have. Were their opinions, the opinion particularly of the late re- spectable Catholic bishop of Kerry, in coincidence with your own.'' — He was a cousin german of mine, a man of very clear and distinct intellect, a very well informed gentleman ; his views were in entire coincidence with those I have expressed ; he was anxious for that arrangement, and I am sure anxious for it, from the purest motives. Your opinion is, that coupled with emancipation, that would be accepted by the Catholic clergy ? — My opinion is, that coupled with or following emancipation, it would be acceptable, but not preceding it ; and my humble opinion is, that it would be a most desirable thing, to have that species of settlement take place after emancipation. If emancipation were conceded, and this settlement made, what would be the probable effect on the influence of the Cathohc clergy, in respect to the general administration of government, and in respect of the general tranquillity of the country ? — The consequence, I take it, would be precisely this ; that the Cathohc clergy would become in the nature of officers belonging to the Crown, forwarding the views of government in every case where there was not something that revolted in general, such as harsh or unconstitutional illegal measures ; but that the general tenor of their conduct would be decidedly in support of the government, and perhaps even in instances that theoretic friends of the consti- SOS DANIEL OCONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. tution would not wish for ; 1 believe the propensity of the Ca- tholic clergy is very much towards an unqualified submission to the law, and to the government whatever it may be. Would it in your opinion have any considerable influence in preserving tranquillity in the country ? — I am sure it would ; I have said, that some political measures are necessary, in my opinion lessening the dominion of landlords, making it obligatory upon them to select better tenants, and various measures of that kind; and with those political measures, I am decidedly of opinion there will be every prospect of order in every part of Ireland, if emancipation was honestly looked into. What do you mean by its being obhgatory upon him to select better tenants .'' — The statute law of Ireland gives a landlord most unlimited power over his tenants, to impoverish them totally, and then turn them out at once ; if those laws were altered, and the landlords were left a good deal to common law, they would be obliged for their own sakes, to seek for persons of character and solvency, and not to hold an auction, as they do so frequently at present, allowing the highest bidder to take the land without re- ference to his character. Do you conceive, that if an arrangement were made for giving stipends to the Roman Catholic clergy, and that connected with Catholic emancipation, it would do away much of the opposition of the Protestants of Ireland to the measure of Catholic eman- cipation ? — I should suppose that where the opposition is, as I presume it is in some instances conscientious, it would do so ; but my own opinion is, that the great majority of the Irish Pro- testants, who are unconnected with local interests and electioneer- ing purposes, and corporations, and influences of that description, are already favourable to emancipation ; I know an immense number of the independent portion of the Protestants of Ireland are favourable to that measure. What is the general amount of payment of the priests through- out Ireland ? — I should suppose 150/. per year would be a high average for a parish priest himself, independent of his curate. What is the amount of the salary of the curate .'* — A curate, if he resides with the clergyman, has ^01. or 30/. a-year, with his horse kept for him ; if he does not reside, he has one-third of the benefice of the parish ; every Catholic clergyman in Ireland must have a horse, for he is liable to be called out every hour of the day or night ; the average for the priest therefore, independent of his curate, I should think high for a clergyman. You think 2001. a-year for a parish, would be a sufficient sum to cover the expenses of priest and curate ?— I should think so, certainly ; 200/. for each parish. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 203 How many parishes are there ? — About 2,500. The bishops have generally parishes, have they not ? — Yes ; they could not subsist without them. What, in your opinion, should be the stipend of the bishops ? — That is a very dehcate subject; but I should think eight hun- dred or a thousand a-year, and an archbishop fourteen or fifteen hundred. Can you inform the Committee, from Avhat sources the present income of the Roman Catholic clergyman is derived ? — As well as I know it, it is this ; speaking now of the country parishes, there is an obligation in Ireland of going to confession and com- munion twice a-year, at Easter and at Christmas, including some period before and after Easter, and before and after Christmas ; they get, in general, two shillings a family at least, and where they are more solvent, two shilhngs from the man, and two shil- lings from the woman, at each of those stations ; they do not get it at the time of confession, confession cannot be connected with money, because, as the absolution is a portion of the sacrament of confession, it is necessary in the Catholic church, that it should not be at all connected with money. Does the Catholic priest get the 9,s. from each person at each confession ? — A shilling on each occasion, according to the sol- vency of the parties ; they are expected to get something at each christening, a shilling or two ; they get 5s. in general for each marriage ; then the wealthier Catholics pay a pound or a guinea ; then they get money for saying masses for the dead ; and after a person of any solvency, or a more decent farmer, has died, his relations make it a point of piety to have masses said for him, and contribute for that purpose ; the priest says those masses at his leisure. Is it not the practice, at marriages and burials, for the priest to go about, and collect offerings from the persons who assemble to do honour either to the marriage or the burial ? — No, I do not know that the priest ever went about ; it was usual at marriages, and still subsists at some places, that a collection is made by a friend of the man or the Avoman, frequently by a friend of the man among his friends, and a friend of the Avoman among her friends ; and during the Avar, Avhen the peasants were solvent, there AA^as a rivah'y among them Avhich should give the priests most. You alluded to the benefit AA-hich had been derived from the education at Maynooth ; do you think the persons Avho have de- rived their education at Maynooth Avere superior to those Avho had been educated elsewhere ? — In point of information, I think they are ; in point of allegiance, under a proper system, they certainly Avould be, because foreign education of the priests may be made a dangerous instrument ; and I have some reason to apprehend that 204* DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED, that danger is not quite visionary ; at this moment those educated at Maynooth are better educated ; for no one could go into the priesthood formerly young, they must have remained until they were twenty-three, and three months before they could be priested ; they could not go abroad before they were priested, for though they got foundations, it was necessary for them to have the benefit of masses in the churches where they were founded, to contribute to their support. That education, pro- perly speaking, began about the age of twenty-four; whereas now, at Maynooth, it begins at the earliest periods; and when they enter Maynooth at seventeen, they mvist be very excellent scholars ; and the system of exclusion is very much, from every thing but their studies and collegiate duties; and the human mind obtains infinitely more of learning when it has facilities, than the mere system necessary for the particular profession actually requires. Have you turned your attention to the qualification of the free- holders of forty shilhngs ? — Yes. Are there not at present a number of persons, in consequence of that low qualification, put upon the register books, who are by no means fit persons to enjoy the elective franchise ? — I do not know that ; that is not my opinion ; I have a very strong notion of the advantage of extending, under proper regulations, so as to avoid tumult or luidue influence, the elective franchise ; I do not know any householder to whom it would be improper, if the thing were well managed, to give the right to vote, if the mode of taking the vote was well managed. Do you conceive, that the system of forty-shilling freeholds, connected as it now is with the law, between landlord and tenant, is such as to insure fair representation ? — It is impossible to say that; it has its advantages and disadvantages; it gives to the owners of great estates great influence, that I believe is a good deal in the spirit of the modern practice in Parliamentary repre- sentation ; it opens the door, however, for considerable frauds, and though I am quite convinced of the frauds, I see great diffi- culties in altering it. I should be glad, though it is a very crude opinion, if the qualification were five pounds. Do you conceive, that raising the qualification to five pounds, Avould. when accompanied with the concession of Avhat is gene- rally called Catholic emancipation, give satisfaction in Ireland to the Roman Catholics ? — Conceding Catholic emancipation, in the spu-it in which it ought to be conceded in order to be useful, it ought to be, if given, given in a liberal spirit ; 1 think the inha- bitants of Ireland would be so connected with the government, and the present distinction so much abolished, that whether forty shillings or five pounds, v-ould be a question equally affecting DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. ^5 Roman Catholics or Protestants, and that the CathoHcs would he satisfied with any arrangement which the Protestants were satisfied with. You do not conceive, that so connected, any dissatisfaction would prevail on the part of the Roman Cadiohcs ? — That is my impression; I think if it were so connected, no dissatisfaction would arise. Do you conceive it would be practicable or safe to alter the elective franchise, to raise the c{ualification without comiecting it with Roman Catholic emancipation ? — I think it would be totally unsafe; I think it would be a most dangerous attempt in legislation to increase the quahfication, and thereby disqualify a great many Roman Catholics, without giving them emancipation. The answer you have made, is taking the qualification of five pounds instead of forty shillings ; would you conceive, that the same answer would apply, if the qualification was raised still liigher than five pounds ? — No ; my opinion upon that subject, as I said before, is not a very decided one; I would see the advantage of some increase, but I should be afraid of going as high as 10/. Are you of opinion, that such an alteration of the qualification would, in effect, diminish the body and influence of the Roman Catholics ? — I do not think raising it to 51. or 10/. or 20/. would diminish the Roman CathoUc influence. The occupiers of the soil are almost all, or so many of them, Roman Catholics, that 10/. or even 20/. would not make an essential difference in that respect, and might have a contrary effect ; for the forty-shilhng freeholders are more the property of the Protestant proprietors, and it might weaken what might be called the Protestant interest, to increase the qualification. Do you make a distinction between the alteration of the fran- chise in counties and cities ? — I do not, in that answer. As far as I know of cities, the forty-shilling freeholder is that which ought to be allowed to subsist ; I think in cities it ought not to be increased. Where there is concurrent right in freemen and freeholders, the effect of the alteration of the elective franchise of the free- holder would be, to throw a kind of superiority in the hands of the freeman ? — Undoubtedly ; my answer as to cities is in re- lation of that ; I know of no city or town that, in itself, has the right of representation in Ireland, in which the freemen do not vote. Mallow is not an exception, for that is a manor, not a mere town. In the event of the qualification in cities being raised, would not the effect be, to place the return in the hands of the corpo- rations of those places ? — The effect^of striking out the forty- shilling freeholds in cities would be, to place the return in the SO0 DANIEL O'CO^TNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. hands of the corporation of those places, completely and irre- trievably. Would not that be a measure that would give dissatisfaction, and produce danger in those places ? — Great dissatisfaction to a very valuable class of people, thriving commercial men. Have you ever considered that it is desirable that the forty- shilling freeholder or indeed any freeholder holding liis freehold by lease, should not vote, unless his rent had been paid ? — I should think it certainly an advantage, but there are great diffi- culties about carrying it into practice ; I think it would be a great advantage, if practical. Would it not have the effect of disfranchising, at any election you have known, nine-tenths of the freeholders? — Yes, at any election I have known hitherto, certainly it would disfranchise a great many. Would it not secure this object, that the freeholder would be a person of more substance and property than at present ? — Yes, if he had bona fide paid his rent ; but it would enable a direct bribe to be given for his rent, or the candidate would qualify him to vote, by having some friend to pay the rent. Would it not raise the freeholder to a more independent si- tuation? — It certainly would, and would be, I am convinced, upon the whole, a decided benefit to the system ; the only dif- culty is the mode of carrying it into effect. Would it be more difficult to carry it into effect, than raising the qualification ? — I believe not ; the question comes suddenly upon me, but my opinion is, it would be the easier of the two, to have the rent paid off. Why do you think that qualification for voting in counties, that is not attended with any inconvenience in England, should be attended with inconvenience in Ireland? — In England, I understand that the greater part of the forty-shilling tenures are fee-simple tenures, where the persons who possess the votes have absolute dominion, and are not therefore the property and serfs of any other person ; in Ireland, it happened that they are made freeholders for election purposes ; and it seems to my mii;id, that they make the same distinctions as in corporations, regular freemen and occasional freemen. If, therefore, the state of society, with reference to rural arrangements in Ireland, was to be more assimilated to that which exists in England, the objection to forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland would vanish ? — In my mind, it would be totally done away; in my humble judgment, it would not be at all right to meddle with them ; I have not expressed any opinion favourable to raising the franchise at all. Do you think that that species of improvement in Ireland, whicli there is fair reason to believe exists, has a tendency to RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. place the social system in Ireland more upon a footing of simi- larity to that of England in that respect, and therefore to correct the evil of forty-shilhng freeholders? — I am entirely of that opinion ; I think the progressive improvement in Ireland is such, as is calculated to do away a great deal of the inconvenience of the present system, and to render it quite unnecessary, if it ever were necessary, to make any alteration certainly un- advisable. Would it be Hkely that the great proprietors will, parcel out their estates in fee-simple freeholds, as long as the present system of political influence exists in Ireland, tlirough the means of forty-shilling freeholders.? — I do not expect that the proprietors of Ireland will ever make donations of the fee, or sell it ; but persons acquiring property, may purchase small estates ; a most desirable thing, if we could see it in Ireland. Jovis, 3° die Martii, 1825. The Bight Hon. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHA.IR. Richard Shiell, Esquire, called in ; and Examined. Do you know any thing with respect to the administration of jus- tice on the circuits ; and if so, have the goodness to give a statement of any thing, in consequence of which inconvenience has been sus- tained ? — If I am asked Avith respect to what I have observed on my own circuit, independently of what I know has taken place in other parts of Ireland, especially in Dublin, I answer, that I have observed upon my own circuit what I conceive to be at least imperfections in the administration of justice, arising from two soiu'ces ; the first I conceive to be rehgious ; and the second ainsto- cratic. I have observed that there is not that just regard for the rights and interests of the lower orders, which I believe is enter- tained in this country. In the county of Wexford, for instance, it is an habitual observation among the Bar, that in cases between landlord and tenant, there is, I will not say an undue partiality, but there is a strong partiality existing in the minds of juries in favour of the landlord. I know it is commonly said among the Bar on my circuit, that in cases between landlord and tenant, the tenant has but a slender chance, unless his case be almost irresistible. I consider that the feeling by which juries are influenced, is in a great measure aristocratic, but I think the aristocratic feeling is S08 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. not unconnected with a religous one ; the Aristocracy of Ireland are chiefly Protestant : I may say ahnost entirely so, because they are to a great extent, masters of its fee-simple. I think that what is called an esprit de corps connected with religion, is thereby produced; Protestants are thus allied together, and where the rights of a person of an inferior class come into collision with those of a person belonging to the higher order, the religious feeling mixes itself with the aristocratic sentiment. The obser- vations which I liave just made, are applicable to the county of Wexford; I cannot say that I can illustrate the justice of those observations by any cases which have fallen within my own know- ledge, but I know tliat the partiality for the landlord among the jury, is matter of familiar observation at the Bar. In speaking of juries, you refer to the record juries? — Yes, I do. Of what description of the community are the juries generally composed ? — In the county of Wexford, there are very few Roman Catholics who are possessed of considerable property; and I believe that the majority of the jurors who try civil cases in the county of Wexford, are Protestants. The question referred to the class of the community ; as to property, from which they were taken ? — I believe in that county of which I particularly speak, jurors are generally selected from a class of very highly respectal)le yeomanry, persons possessing four, five, or six hundred a yeai\ Are they tenants or landlords ? — I believe they are generally what are called middle men You speak of the petit juries ? — Yes, of the record juries. I shall mention the instances which have occurred on my circuit, that appear to me to shew tliat there is something vicious in the administration of justice, arising in a great degree from the nature of the law itself; I begin with the case of Lawrence against Dempster, in which I happened to be counsel. The Insurrection Act was proclaimed in the town of Nenagh, in the county of Tipperary ; Mr. Dempster is a magistrate for that county ; he had a quarrel about an hour after sunset, (and it was a question whether the hour had elapsed, and that was left to the jury,) with a Mr. Lawrence, respecting a subject wholly unconnected with politics; very unwarrantable language was used by Mr. Law- rence towards Mr. Dempster. It is right that I should mention, that it was proved that at this time the wife of Mr. Dempster was walking in the streets of Nenagh, accompanied by some of her female friends, and many persons were at the time in the street ; in consequence of gross personal language addressed to Mr. Dempster as an individual, but quite unconnected with his magisterial capacity, Mr, Dempster ordered Mr. Lawrence to be RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 209 arrested under the Insurrection Act, inasmuch as he was out of his abode an hour after sunset ; the latter was, under this order, committed and detained in custody for, I beheve, three days ; a verdict for 75/. only was recovered, in an action brought by Mr. Lawrence against Mr. Dempster, I conceive that unless there had been persons upon the jury, and I was assured of the fact, who were resolved to support the magistrates at all events, and who acted upon the principle that magistrates, even when grossly in en-or, or when acting corruptly, ought to be sustained, the verdict would have been much more considerable. A point was saved at the trial; the question was, whether the action ought to have been trespass or case ? It was brought before the court of Common Pleas ; three of the Judges, Mr. Justice Moore, Mr. Justice Torrens, and Mr. Justice Johnson, all con- curred in saying, that the conduct of Mr. Dempster deserved the strongest reprobation ; Lord Norbury Avas the only Judge who stated, that in his opinion, his conduct did not deserve much censure, and that at all events magistrates ought to be supported. What 1 am now stating, is within my own personal knowledge. The case was reported in the Dublin Evening Post. I think that Mr. Dempster was guilty of a gross perversion of the power intrusted to him, and I think that he ought to have been de- prived of the commission of the peace ; he was not deprived of the commission of the peace ; he remained after the facts I have detailed, still intrusted with this Important power ; and further, the magistrates of the county of Tipperary came to a resolution, that he was an active and useful magistrate, to prevent his being deprived of the commission of the peace. 1 think that the office of magistrate is connected Avith the administration of justice, and that to permit a man, Avho had abused the Insurrection Act in such a way, to continue in the exercise of magisterial functions, was highly censurable, and affords evidence that due means are not adopted to improve the administration of the law. Do you recollect the language which AA^as used by Mr. Lawrence to Mr. Dempster upon that occasion "^ — I do not recollect the exact words that were vised, but I recollect that it was impos- sible that grosser language could be employed ; I can recollect some of the words, which I should almost blush to mention. Mr. Dempster's family were in the street at the time .'' — His wife was in the street, but not within hearing. Was that proved .? — At all events it was not proved that she was within hearing. Do you know the persons that were on the jury .? — I do not know the names of the persons that were on the jury, but I was told by the attorney who employed me in the action, and who was extremely well acquainted with the county, (iVIr. Lanagan, p SiO RICttAflt) SttlEtt, ESQ. EXAMINED. a very clever and intelligent gentleman) that some of the jul'ors acted upon the principle of giving as little damages as possi- ble against any magistrate. Did he state to you the ground of his opinion ? — He did not state that : 1 did not ask him the question, because I conceived, that from his familiar acquaintance with the habits and feelings of the country, he must have been acquainted with the fact. Do you know of what religious persuasion Mr. Dempster is .'' — He is a Presbyterian ; he is a Scotch Presbyterian ; he was the surgeon of a regiment quartered in that part of the country, and Settled there ; I beheve him independent of that fact, to be a respectable man, though I think he displayed too much alacrity in what he considered the discharge of his official duties. On that occasion, or others ? — I speak from public report ; I think it my duty to mention, that complaints against Mr. Demp- ster came from persons very much disposed to find fault with magistrates ; I know he was extremely unpopular in Nenagh, Do you know from what parts of the county the persons com- posing the jury, were drawn ? — I do not. Do you know whether they were Protestants or Catholics, or both ? — I believe both. Is it not the custom in the county of Tipperary to put Pro- testants and Catholics indiscriminately on juries ? — I believe in civil cases it is the practice to put Protestants and Catholics in- discriminately on juries ; but I am sure that in cases which are either political or conceived to be so, or which have any connexion with the disturbances of the county, Roman Catholics are stu- diousl}r excluded ; I should violate confidence if I stated my authority, for the fact was commvmicated to me in confidence. Was a panel returned which was intended solely for the trial of this particular case ? — No, there was a general panel ; as well as I recollect in that particular case, the jury were chosen by ballot, which is the fairest mode ; the names were put into a hat, and then drawn ovit. How do you account for the former statement you made to the Committee, that in cases where magistrates were engaged in a trial, the Catholics were more particularly excluded than in other cases ? — If I stated that, I stated what I did not intend to do, and I conceive I must have been misapprehended. Do you consider that in this case there was any special ex- clusion of Roman Catholics from the jury ? — I am sure there was not ; but I beg to add there appeared to be individuals of strong opinions, respecting the necessity of supporting the magistracy : upon the jury it was a mere matter of accident, and I do not mean to say, that in that instance any improper measures were taken by the sheriff or any other persons, for the purpose of pro- RICilARtJ SHIELt, ESQ. EXAMINED. Sll Curing a corrupt jury ; but the state of the law is such, that men's passions are marshalled against each other, and that there- by it almost inevitably happens, that in political cases, men will be swayed by undue motives ; I conceive the remedy for tliat will be to abolish those distinctions which have generated this result ; the vice is in the law itself. Do you conceive that the influence only operates on one side ? — No cases have come within my own knowledge, from wliich I should conclude that Roman Catholics were swayed by their political passions ; but I think it extremely likely that they would be so- This, if the case, is also the fault of the law. Do you know the proportion of Roman Cathohcs and Protes- tants, who were on this particular jury ? — I do not ; but a single juror, it is quite obvious, exercises an absolute dominion over a jury, in the reduction of damages. Did the jury retire from the box ; and if so, for what time were they out ? — They were out for about four hours ; the Judge did not remain to receive the verdict by the consent of the par- ties, in consequence of the lateness of the hour, and it being un- derstood that they would not be very likely to agree, it was con- sented that the registrar should receive the verdict. Were you present in the court of Common Pleas, when this case came on? — I was; I argued the case in the court of Common Pleas. Of what class of society, chiefly, was this jury composed .?— They were persons of the better class ; they did not belong to the aristocracy of the county, not that class from which the grand jurors are generally selected ; but they were respectable indivi- duals, gentlemen ; some of them, probably, of a thousand or fifteen hundred a-year, and others possessed of four or five hun- dred a-year. Were they of that class of persons, out of whom magistrates are selected ? — I believe some of them were magistrates ; I think Mr. Pennefeather was one of the jury, who was a magistrate. Can you state what the circumstances of Mr. Dempster were, whether he was a person in needy circumstances ? — He was a surgeon attached to a regiment ; he is a Scotchman. Was not the verdict of 75^. damages, proportioned to his cir- cumstances ? — I do not think it was, because he married a lady who has seven hundred a-year. Did you advise moving for a new trial, on account of the in- adequacy of the damages ? — I did not ; because there is no in- stance in which a plaintiff" can set aside a verdict in liis favour, no matter how small the damages may be. What was Mr. Lawrence ? — Mr. Lawrence had been in the army. P2 212 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Was lie a Catholic or a Protestant ? — He is a Protestant. I am quite satisfied that Mr. Dempster was actuated by no religious feeling towards him, nor would he have been actuated by any such feeling towards him, if he had been a Roman Catholic. Mr. Dempster is not affected by the passions which prevail throughout Ireland ; he is a Scotch gentleman, Mr. Lawrence is Irish ; and I recollect this circumstance, that a friend of Law- rence\s said, and this is, I think, remarkable, " Upon what prin- ciple could you possibly arrest Mr. Lawrence.'' for Mr. Lawrence is notoriously a loyal man." The person I allude to was a Mr. Rowan Cashell, a relation of Mr. Lawrence; he proved that he said to Mr. Dempster, Why should you arrest Lawrence, when he and all his family are loyal men ? and he added, that he meant by that, that they were strong Protestants. When this committal took place, was the county under the Insurrection Act ? — Not the whole county ; that part of the county was. Do you not think, that a disposition to support the magistrates might arise in any disturbed county, without the influence of any religious feeling whatever ? — I certainly think so. And that that disposition to support the magistrates might fairly be attributed to apprehension, that the disturbances which prevailed might arise under the circumstances of any country whatever ? — I certainly do think so ; but I think it right to add, that I conceive that disposition is not at all unconnected with the spirit of domination j^roduced by the sense of superiority arising from religion. Mr. Dempster was a Scotclunan ? — He was. How long had he resided in Ireland ? — I think about four or five years ; I know the gentleman personally. Do you think he got so infected with this spirit of domination during four years residence, as to commit Mr. Lawrence to prison under the influence of those feelings which arise from the spirit of domination ? — I do not think so ; and I did not state that I conceived that he was influenced by that sentiment. But the Jury, I conceive, were influenced, in their adjudication of da- mages, by that sentiment. Do you not think it possible that Mr. Dempster, under the in- fluence of irritated feelings, if he had been a magistrate acting in Scotland, might have committed this abuse of magisterial autho- rity ? — I think it possible ; but I think it not hkely, that in a well ordered community he would have been guilty of a violation of the law, which would have excited tlie reprobation of every person in his own class of society. Did he ever afterwards express any regret at having been misled by passion to abuse the authority he had as a magistrate ? RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 213 — He did not ; on the contrary, I rather collected that he ex- pressed no dissatisfaction at it. Mr. Lawrence was what you call a loyal man, and all his im- mediate relations Avere strong Protestants? — I stated that a rela- tion of Mr. Lawrence's stated upon the table, Avhen he was ex- amined as a -witness, that Mr. Lawrence Avas a loyal man ; and he defined his loyalty to be strong Protestantism ; I think it right to add, that I am not perfectly sure about the last. Do you think there were loyal men, and strong Protestants, on the jury ? — I am sure there Avere very strong Protestants, and therefore a ery loyal men, according to a certain, but A'ery im- proper and offensive definition of the Avord. HoAV do you accovmt for it, that those feehngs of loyalty and of strong Protestantism, did not operate Avith the jury to induce them to take part with Mr. LaAvrence, he being a loyal man and a Protestant ? — I think that the anxiety to support the magistrate, superseded every other consideration. Then, has not the anxiety to support the magistrate in a dis- turbed district, overpoAvered that community of feeling Avhich existed between a jury and a suffering Protestant.'' — I do not think that the fact of Mr. Lawrence being a strong Protestant had any effect upon the jury, because no political feeling was the origin of the contest betAveen them ; the jury were perfectly im- partial, as far as religion Avas immediately concerned, betAveen the parties, as they were both Protestants. The ground on which I rest my opinion that this case illustrates the imperfect administration of justice, is the simple fact, that Mr. Dempster was allowed to continue in the exercise of magisterial functions. In this case, there Avas no opportunity of challenging the jury, it being a civil case; Avas there.'' — There Avere no challenges; there Avould have been grounds of challenge if the parties had been related, and other grounds unnecessary to be mentioned. There was no ground of peremptory challenge, without cause assigned ? — No. Could there have been a verdict in favour of Mr. Lawrence, if Mr. Dempster could have proved, by the Dublin Gazette, that he Avas authorised, in point of strict law, to exercise this power under the Insurrection Act.'' — That Avould have been a mere matter of pleading; if the Gazette had been produced, the ob- jection that the action ought to have been an action on the case, and not an action of trespass (Avhich it Avas) Avould, I think have been good ; but even if the Gazette had been produced, and the action had been on the case, and not trespass, damages ought to have been recovered. Might not the jury have taken that omission into their con^ 214 BICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. sideration, when they awarded the damages; might they not have argued, here would have been no damages, provided Mr. Dempster could have produced the Dublin Gazette ? — I am sure the jury did not take that into their account, for the Judge drew their attention to the points they were to consider, and that was not included. This case was tried by the Chief Justice ? — It was. Did you ever hear that there was a communication between the government of Ireland and the Chief Justice, as to the pro- priety of removing Mr. Dempster from the commission of the peace.? — I read in one of the papers, that Mr. PeeJ made that observation in the House of Commons, but I had never heard it before ; I conceived that Mr. Peel might have referred to Lord Norbury, the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, who expressed an opinion favourable to Mr. Dempster. Supposing a communication was actually made by the Irish government to Lord Chief Justice Bushe, of the covirt of King^s Bench, with respect to the propriety of removing Mr. Dempster from the commission of the peace, and that the Chief Justice having tried the case, gave it as his opinion that there was not sufficient ground for the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to exercise his authority, and to remove Mr. Dempster ; in that case, Avould not you think the Lord Chancellor was justified in abstaining from the exercise of such a power ? — I must, in candour say, not- withstanding the high respect I entertain, and something stronger than respect, towards the Chief Justice of the King's Bench, who is a very distinguished person, that I should not con- ceive that even his authority ought to supersede the effect which the powerful facts ought to have produced upon the mind of the Lord Chancellor. As a general principle, do you not think that it would be un- safe in the Lord Chancellor to exercise his authority in contrar diction to the opinion of the judge who had had the whole merits of the case disclosed to him in evidence ? — I do not, where the facts are clearly established, independently of the authority of the judges. The Judge takes notes of the case ; he states the facts in those notes ; if he submits his notes, and thereby submits the facts to the consideration of Chancellor, I think the Lord Chan- cellor is just as competent to judge as he is; and I do not think that any Judge who superintends the trial of a case, is at all more competent to form a decision respecting the propriety of removing a magistrate, than any other person. Do you think a judge, who reads the minutes of evidence in a case, is quite as competent to form an opinion of the precise merits of that case as the judge who tries it, supposing of course RICHARD SHipjiL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 215 each to be equally gifted, and each equally impartial ? — I tliink, upon a given state of facts, the judge who tries the case, and any other judge, are equally competent to decide ; and I think it very possible also, that a judge even of the very highest faculties and the purest judicial integrity, may have particular views re- specting the propriety of sustaining magistrates, in entertain- ing which, he may labour under a very great and pernicious mistake. Can you undertake to say, from your recollection of the words used by Mr. Dempster, and the general tenor of that language, that the attack by Mr. Lawrence on Mr. Dempster was purely personal, and had no reference whatever either to politics or to the existing disturbances in the country, or to any thing at all con- nected with Mr. Dempster's magisterial capacity ? — I am perfectly certain of it, because the dispute arose from a servant of the brother, I think, of Mr. Lawrence, refusing to let a horse be- longing to Mr. Dempster, into a field attached to a barrack. That was the origin of the whole dispute. Have the goodness to state whether it is the practice in Ireland, to enforce the Insurrection Act upon respectable persons .^ — It certainly is not; and the only instance in which I recollect, that a person belonging to the class of gentlemen was arrested under the Insurrection Act, was another instance in which that very Mr. Dempster was the committing magistrate; it was the case of Mr. Gleeson, a repectable professional man, an attorney, who was committed by the orders of Mr. Dempster, for being out of his house at nio-ht, in the town of Nenaoh. In point of fact, the same communication and intercourse subsists between parties not suspected of violating the law in a district proclaimed under the Insurrection Act, as before.'' — I think the same sort of intercourse subsists between persons of the better class. Was that case of Gleeson ever made the subject of a trial .'^ — It never was made the subject of trial ; an action was brought, but the statute that requires the service of notice upon a magistrate, was not complied with ; that was the reason, and none other, why the action was not brought to trial ; I myself had a brief in the action, and on that account I am acquainted with the facts. Can you state the date of that occurrence ? — I cannot exactly state it. Had a year intervened ? — I think it was in the year 1823. Can you state what circumstances of life Mr. Lawrence was in ? — Mr. Lawrence is a person of very respectable family, I believe ; however, that his circumstances are now, and were then, extremely impoverished, I believe that his respectability, which perhaps will appear singular in Ireland, has sustained some dimi- ^16 RICHARD SHlELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. niition in consequence of his being considered addicted to quar- relling, and his having been reputed a duellist. Is he considered in society, on a footing with Mr. Dempster ? — I believe he would be considered in society on a footing with Mr. Dempster. You do not impute to the jury that they were influenced by religious feelings?— I am sure that they were not influenced by rehgious feehngs ; they were influenced by what I conceive to be an undue anxiety to support magistrates through (to use a vulgar phrase) thick and thin. By what you call an aristocratic sentiment? — Yes; by that which, when it comes into its operation, with reference "to the lower orders, is tainted Avith religious feeling ; perhaps without the persons swayed by it being perfectly conscious of the origin of the motive by which they are governed. You state that in point of circumstances, Mr. Dempster and Mr. Lawrence were very much on a footing ? — Yes ; when I say that, I think that the spirit of aristocratic domination is connected with religious domination; I do not apply the observation so much to this particular case, as to the general effect of the system of religious distinction on the whole class of the people. In this particvdar case, you neither impute a religious feeling, nor an aristocratic sentiment, to the jury? — I think that the dis- position to support magistrates improperly, arises from an aristo- cratic sentiment ; from a desire to keep down and trample upon the lower orders. Do not you think the jury might have naturally taken into consideration the very great provocation Mr. Dempster had received, that might have deprived him for a moment of the exercise of his sound intellect? — I not only know that they did, but that they ought, and that the Chief Justice directed them, to do so ; but I think that 151. was not by any means a proper reparation for an imprisonment of three days, and where the Insurrection Act was converted into an instrument of personal vengeance. Had Mr. Dempster any property separate from his wife's? — I am not aware. How long had Mr. Dempster been in the commission of the peace ? — I do not know. Is this the only instance in which you call into question the conduct of Mr. Dempster as a magistrate ? — I have just men- tioned the case of Mr. Gleeson, who was arrested by Mr. Demp- ster for bein^^ out of his house in the town, an hour after sunset. Mr. Gleeson is an attorney in considerable practice ; is he not ? ■ — No, he is not in considerable practice. What amount of damages should you yourself have thought RICHARD SHIEtL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 217 sufficient, in the case of Mr. LaAvrence ? — I should have thought that, under the circumstances, 300/. would have been a proper verdict. What were the damages laid at ? — The damages were laid, I believe, at 2000/., but that is no test ; it is a matter of caprice with the professional man who draws the declaration. I think it right in fairness to add, that though I mentioned that ]Mr. Demp- ster had married a lady with 700/. a year, I beHeve the estate o that lady is encumbered, though that fact was not brought to the attention of the jury ; that circumstance I know from my own personal knowledge. Have you not expressed an opinion, that public men in Ireland are influenced by undue partialities in administering justice and favour toAvards Roman Catholics? — I do not think that I said public men ; I will say this, that I believe the judges of the land are free from any impure motives connected with religion ; but I am convinced that sheriffs, who must be Protestants ; that magis- trates, a majority of whom are Protestants, and who are strongly swayed by political feelings; that jurors, who are selected by Pro- testant sheriffs, and especially the jurors of the city of Dublin, are governed by impure motives ; and if it be not out of order to men- tion it, I have the authority of Mr. Edmund Burke for saying, that it is impossible that thf law should be administered purely, while the law remains what it is, and continues to be administered by Pro- testant sheriffs, magistrates and jurors. He says so in his letter, written in the year 1782, to an Irish peer ; his words are, " The Catholics are excluded from all that is beneficial, and exposed to all that is mischievous, in a trial by jury. This was manifestly within my own observation." The question refers to the duties of chief secretary of Ireland, for instance ? — I am sure that no person, who would hold so high an office, could be swayed in a case of personal wrong, and where merel}'^ the rights of two individuals concerned, unconnected with rehgion, were by any improper motives ; but I certainly do think, that public men in Ireland, and I think it is but human nature, are swayed by an anxiety to support the members of that party, by whom they are themselves supported. Do you recollect making a statement of this nature, that when Mr. Peel was chief secretary for Ireland, a claim was preferred to him, on the part of a man in hmnble life, a fisherman in the county of Waterford, who had been instrumental by the greatest activity and courage, in saving the lives of several soldiers who were ship- Avrecked, that an application was made by Mr. M'Dougal, who stated this case to Mr. Peel, and stated his knowledge of the truth of the statement which he made, and applied for some mark of favour from the government towards that meritorious individual ; 218 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. that Mr. Peel's ansM^er was, what class does this person belong to : the reply was, he is a fisherman; that Mr. Peel then said, that is not what I mean, is he a Protestant or a Roman Catholic ? that the answer to that was, " he is a Roman Catholic ;" that Mr. Peel then dismissed the case, saying, " if that is the case I decline in- terfering ;" is that a correct statement of the outline of the case, as stated by you ? — No, it is not. Then have the goodness to state the circumstances, as stated by you ? — I will. Mr. M'Dougal mentioned to me, that the person of the name of Kirwin or Kirewan, had saved the lives of eleveij persons in the army, three of whom were officers, and that he, from motives of pure humanity, and having no acquaintance with any person in avithority, went to the castle and applied for a remunera- tion for this individual, and that he was asked at the castle ; (I am now stating what Mr. M'Dougal mentioned to me ; I will after? wards state how far I may have perhaps modified or coloured those facts ;) he was asked, I say, at the castle, and with emphasis ; (but he did not state that it was by Mr. Peel, I believe he stated that; it was by Sir Edward Littlehales,) whether the individual in quegr tion was a Protestant. Mr. M'Dougal not only mentioned these circumstances to me, but he also mentioned them to a very respect- able merchant of the city of Dublin, Mr. Nicholas Mahon ; who, when some controversy arose as to the truth, or the full extent of the truth of my statement, corroborated the body of the facts which I had pubhcly mentioned. I think it right to add, that Mr. M'Dougal requested me not to mention these circumstances ; from which obligation, I conceive, that his death has completely released me ; as I supposed he was apprehensive, that a disclosure of this conversation might prejudice him in his advancement in his profes- sion ; whether he was right or not I do not know. I did not state in public that Kirwin received no reward ; but perhaps I was guilty of jsome I'hetorical artifice, in not adding^ that he received the reward of 30/. which was the only reward that he did receive for saving the lives of eleven persons. I certainly did insinuate, that the question, whether Kirwin was a Protestant, had been put by the authority of Mr. Peel ; and I did conceive, that the person who had this conversation with Mr. M'Dougal, had been instructed to ask that question ; perhaps I was not warranted in drawing the inference, but I certainly did not state, that Mr. Peel gave no re- muneration to the individual in question ; on the contrary, I know that the individual in question received the small sum of 30/. and received nothing more. Did Mr. M'Dougal inform you, that the only communication he ever had with Mr. Peel on that subject was in writing ? — Mr. M'Dougal did not state that to me; allow me to add, that a few days before I left Dublin, the incjividuaj cpncerued in this act of RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED, 219 very signal humanity came to Dublin, in consequence of his having seen that I had made mention of his name, and he asked me to di'aw a memorial for him to the Lord Lieutenant, setting forth the extent of his services ; which memorial I was prevented from drawing by the necessity of coming over to this country. Kirwin stated to me, that he himself and Mr. M'Dovigalhad an interview with Mr. Peel ; how far he was right, I cannot state. I know the f)ropensity among the lower classes to put forth every thing in a ight the most favourable to themselves ; I am inclined to think he must have been under some mistake, and that he saw some other person whom he mistook for Mr. Peel ; Kirwin is thirty-six years of age, and when he asked for some small place in the Revenue, he stated that Mr. Peel observed, that he was too old ; which I ap- prehend Mr. Peel would not have stated, for he is a very strong and healthy man ; I conceive therefore it is unlikely that he could have had such an interview, for the person who told him his age was an obstacle to his appointment, must have been mocking him. Did Mr. M'Dougal tell you, that he wrote a letter to Mr. Peel, in which he stated that this man was in the utmost pecuniary dis- tress, and had been actually in prison some time for a debt of 6^. ; Mr. M'Dougal having himself released him from prison, and think- ing it a great reflection upon the town in Avhich he lived, that such a man should have remained in prison ? — Mr. M'Dougal did not mention this fact to me, but I do think that Mr. M'Dougal stated to me he had written a letter to Mr. Peel. Did Mr. M'Dougal tell you that Mr. Peel's answer to that letter was to this effect ; that General Doyle, who commanded the dis- trict, had been instructed to examine into all the claims that had been preferred by persons who had been instrumental in saving lives from that ship ; that he begged Mr. M'Dougal would see General Doyle would lay the claims of this individual before liira, and that General Doyle would make a report to Mr. Peel upon the subject ? — He did not ; but Kirwin subsequently told me that he had a conversation with General Doyle, and that General Doyle put it to his election, whether he would take 30/. or wait until he should get some small place ; and that he preferred taking the 30/. : and Kirwin said also, that it was mentioned to him, that his name was taken down at the Castle in the list of promotion for some petty office ; but that he had not been appointed, although some years had elapsed, and he requested me to draw a memorial for him, calling the attention of government to that fact. Did Mr. M'Dougal conceal from you the important fact, that the whole case had been referred to General Doyle, with instruc- tions to inquire into the whole of it ? — Mr. M'Dougal did not men- tion it; it was at the bar mess at Kilkenny he mentioned the cir- piynstaiiees I have detailed. Mr. M'Dougal was a gentleman of 220 RICHARD SMIELL, ESa. EXAMINED. what I call liberal opinions ; he was favourable to Roman Catholic emancipation ; we were observing in conversation, that the most profitable course a Protestant could pursue in Ireland was to sup- port the doctrines of Ascendancy : he did not mention the facts for the purpose of public statement, but, on the contrary, laid me under an injunction of secrecy, which I obeyed while he lived. But he concealed the fact, that this case was referred, with others, to the General commanding in the district ; that 30/. was presented to the individual, that having been reported by the General to be a remuneration for those services ? — Mr. M'Dougal laid no stress upon any circumstance except upon the question having been asked, whether Kirwin was a Protestant, and that it should have been made an ingredient by men in power, in the consideration of the extent of his remuneration. That was the gist of the conversation. Are you aware of the fact now, that this case was referred to the same individual to whom evei-y other case had been referred, which individual being a general officer of the district, was instructed to report to the government what sum he thought was a just'remune- ration to each individual respectively for the services they had per- formed, and that the sum named by General Doyle as a proper remuneration to Kirwin was 30/. , and that 30/. was paid to him ? — I am not aware that any such reference was made. You are aware of it now, by the communication you have had subsequently with Kirwin? — I am merely aware of this, that General Doyle put it to his election whether he would take 30/. or take the promise of promotion ; but I am not aware that there was any reference made to General Doyle, I am merely aware of the naked fact I have mentioned. You are aware that the individual had an offer from the general officer of the district, either that he should receive the sum of 30/. to be paid immediately, or if he preferred it, that his name should be placed upon the list of candidates for small appoint- ments in the revenue ? — I am ; and I beg to add, I conceive that the question as to whether he Avas a Protestant, if ever put, was put with a view to ascertain whether he should be placed in a situation of respectability or weight, and that religion in Ireland does decide the place which an individual is to hold in connexion with the government, or in any of its inferior departments. What was the employment of Kirwin .f* — I heard he was a fisherman, but he himself told me, since my statement, that he was a farmer, and he certainly appears to be a very decent man, he reads and writes ; I should call him a very intelligent man. Mr. M'Dougal informed you that lie was a fisherman, did he not ? — I think he did ; but I afterwards, in conversation with himself, found he was a farmer ; he lives on the sea coast. What place of weight and responsibility could an individual KTCHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINEIV. 2S1 who was a fisherman, and had remained in prison for a debt of G/. expect from the government ? — I think that weight and re- sponsibiKty are relative terms, and that a person in an inferior class may be trusted with employments that are of consequence and require fidelity and good conduct, the salary of which at all events is of moment ; I think that a salary of 60/. a-year given to this humble man, if employed in some small office, would have been a matter of great importance to him ; and I think that the question whether he was a Protestant, if at all put, (which I be- lieve, although I do not positively state it, I had it merely on the authority of Mr. M'Dougal,) was put with a view to determine whether he should be employed, and in what way. How do you reconcile that answer with Kirwin''s own state- ment, that the offer of a place was made to him if he preferred waiting for a place rather than receiving a sum of money at once ? — I think the nature and importance of the place was to be de- termined by the religion ; if he had been a Protestant he would probably have been employed in a situation of that class to which Protestants are usually promoted. Do you know the places to which Kirwin would have been eligible ? — There are many situations in the police, many situa- tions in the revenue ; for instance, the place of Avater-guard; and other places which he might have held. Supposing the place of water-guard should have been esta- bhshed since the claim of Kirwin was presented to the govern- ment, you would not in that case draw any inference from his not beuig appointed to that ? — I mention the place of water-guard merely as illustrative of the sort of place he might have held ; of course analogous places must have existed before that of water- guard was established. Do you know that in many instances places in the revenue are places of promotion, and that it is absolutely necessary to belong to a subordinate class before a man can be promoted to a higher ? — I am aware of that ; but I think the most inferior situation in the revenue would have been an object to this poor man. Mr. M'Dougal did not state to you, that Mr. Peel was the person who put the question as to his being a Protestant or a Roman Cathohc? — Mr. M'Dougal did not state to me, that Mr. Peel was the person who put that question ; he stated, that it was put by a person attached to the Castle, but I conceived it was suggested by Mr. Peel. I think I have a right to add, I am not disposed to think so now. As at present informed, do not you think, that if General Doyle suggested that 30/. Avas a fit remuneration to be made to Kirwin, and if 30/. was paid to him, that no impression unfavour- RICMARO SttlELI., ESQ. SXAMl•^iE6i able to the government, in respect to its partiality, ought to arise upon that case ? — I conceive, that if the sum of 30/. only was paid to a person who had saved the lives of eleven men in the em- ployment of government, such a sum was an inadequate remu- neration. Supposing the general officer, who was requested to inquire into that and other circumstances, reported 30/. to be a fit sum, regard being had to the class of life of Kirwin, do not you think, that then a person in the situation of chief secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and who could not, of course, make personal inquiry, would be justified in acting upon the opinion and report of the individual who had been directed to inquire ? — I think that the secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, having learned that the lives of eleven persons in his Majesty"'s service had been saved by the ex- ertions of an humble man, ought to liave been greatly struck by an action so heroic and so useful, and should not have made the report of a general officer, the medium by which his own estimate of the moral merit of such an action ought to have been deter- mined. You do not suppose that General Doyle lessened the reward to Kirwin, because he was a Roman Catholic ? — I am sure he did not : but I cannot answer for the moral scale by which General Doyle estimated the value of Kirwin's conduct. You think that 30/. was an inadequate reward for the service performed ? — I certainly do. Three officers were saved, and eight soldiers ; and that at a moment, when, I am sorry to say, others were committing acts of the greatest barbarity. Who were the persons employed to report on the facts ; were they not the general officers of the district .? — I presume that to be the case. Was it likely that General Doyle, an officer himself, would undervalue the services of a man who had been instrumental in saving the lives of soldiers ? — I will not undertake to dispute on the point of moral taste. I cannot pronounce upon the ethics or mihtary sensibilities of General Doyle. In the statement you have made, you stated, that the person at the Castle with whom M'Dougal communicated, retired to an- other room, and upon his returning, asked whether Kirwin was a Protestant or a Catholic ? — I did ; and I think it noAv right to mention, that in that particular, there was perhaps a rhetorical colouring in the specification of so minute a circumstance, which was not perhaps perfectly warranted : I cannot now positively say that Mr. M'Dougal did not state to me, that it was upon the return of the inferior officer at the' Castle that the question was put ; but speaking as a conscientious man ought to do upon so litCHAitb SHIfetl, fiSQ. tXAMf^lB. ^SB important an occasion as the present, I think it right to maintain, that I do not distinctly recollect that he did state it : upon the other hand, I will not negative that statement. The inference Avhich was natural to be drawn from that state- ment to you was, that the person so retiring had, in the interval, a communication from Mr. Peel ; and that, in consequence of that communication, the question with respect to religion, was after- wards put? — Unquestionably it was my object to convey by in- sinuation, what I did not think judicious directly to affirm ; but I think it right to add, that my own firm conviction is, that re- ligion is, more or less, made the test in the allocation of even the most minor office in Ireland. Your intention was to convey an impression, that that question with respect to religion was put by the directions of Mr. Peel, either at that moment given, or previously communicated ? — My object at that time was to intimate to the pubUc, that the sug- gestion had been made by Mr. Peel ; my impression then was, that the question was put by his direction ; I now think, from the manner of Mr. PeePs examination, that Mr. Peel did not in that specific instance direct the question to be put, but that it was asked by an inferior officer, from his knowledge of the habits and the mind of the then Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, under whom he acted, and from the principles on which promotion is carried on. You have no distinct reason for making that assertion ; you had no ground except your own surmise for stating that that question had originated with Mr. Peel.'' — I did not state that question had originated with Mr. Peel ; I merely left it to be inferred. Had you, at the time you left it so to be inferred, any distinct ground whatever upon which you could rest such an assertion 2 — I have this fact ; that a person in the employment of Mr. Peel, Avho must have been acquainted with his habits of thinking and his feelings, had asked the question, and I think I was not unfair in attributing that question to a higher source. Are you quite sure that Sir Edward Littlehales was the person who put that question to Mr. M'Dougal ? — I am not sure of it ; Sir Edward's name was mentioned to me in the course of the con- versation, but whether in reference to this particular part of the case, I cannot take upon myself to say ; I believe it was his name that was mentioned, but I cannot positively affirm it. Do you think it fair to infer, merely that a particular question originated with an individual whom you name, when all you know is, that it was put by another person, between which person and the individual named, you think there is a general accordance in pohtical sentiments ? — I do think it quite fair ; I think it very S24 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. natural that the " winking of authority''"' should be attended to by any persons holding inferior capacities. In this case you imply a particular fact, although you admit that you have no reason whatever to believe that fact actually to have taken place ? — I found a specific fact ; I found that the question was asked by a person in the employment or in depen- dancy on Mr. Peel. How do you know that fact.? — I was told by Mr. M'Dougal, that the question was asked by a person at the Castle, who was the individual through whom the communication was made to Mr. Peel ; he told me that the question was asked of him just before he had the interview with Mr. Peel. And by Sir Edward Littlehales ? — I do not state that posi- tively ; I endeavour to distinguish between my perfect recollection and my more obscure belief. Did Mr. M'Dougal state what passed between himself and Mr. Peel.? — He did not; the conversation between Mr. M'Dou- gal and me did not at that time produce any deep impression upon me ; it was casual ; it was stated merely in common convivial intercourse, without any object whatever upon the part of Mr. M'Dougal. I afterwards happened to recollect it, and I found that it illustrated the general principle upon which the govern- ment had acted ; Avhen I find all the inferior offices almost uni- versally filled with Protestants ; vv'hen I find the pohce filled by Protestants, I cannot help thinking that it is the principle by which government are swayed. You stated, that what you meant to state was as a charge against Mr. Peel ; that the application for reward being made to him in favour of an individual, he wished to ascertain the religious creed of that individual, before he decided on the amount and nature of that reward ; that was the charge which you meant to bring against Mr. Peel, and which you distinctly stated. It now appears that you had no grounds upon which you could have been warranted in asserting that the question, admitting it to have been put by any body, did arise directly or indirectly from Mr. Peel.? — I did not distinctly state that the question was put at the instance of Mr. Peel. I now state that, in my opinion, a ge- neral system exists in Ireland, which would have prompted the question ; and that I should conceive that Mr. Peel, acting only in consistency with the principles which he had ever avowed, would not only naturally, but perhaps justifiably, have asked the question. You infer then, from the question which was put by an infe- rior officer about the Castle, that the answer to that question would be considered as a matter of some importance by the supe- rior officers of government ? — I do ; I think that the persons at RICHAUD SHIELL, V.SQ. EXAMINED. 225 the head of the government would not have been swayed by any rehgious consideration, in determining what sum of money ought to be given to Kirwin. I think his rehgion would have been entirely left out of the mere pecuniary question ; but I think the government would have been swayed by the consideration of his rehgion in determining to what place he should be advanced ; and that is the reason why I think the question was put. Were you rightly understood, that this communication from Mr. M'Dougal to you was not a formal communication for the purpose of placing you in possession of those facts, but a casual observation at a dinner table, with perhaps other persons pre- sent? — It Avas a casual conversation; there were other persons present, but it was told to me in a whisper; Mr. M'Dougal mentioned to me, that when the question was put to him whether Kirwin was a Protestant, he answered, that KirAvin did not ask whether the eleven persons whom he saved were Protestants at the time he was plunging into the sea. It Avas not then a formal communication made by Mr. M'Dougal, for the purpose of your instituting any public pro- ceedings upon it ? — Certainly not ; it was merely accidental. Are you at all aware how many persons were engaged in saving the lives of the soldiers at that shipwreck ? — I beheve that no individual whatever exerted himself to save the Hves of the sol- diers on board the two transports that were wrecked, except this individual ; I believe the crowd on the sea-coast assembled toge- ther for the purpose of plundering the wrecks, a practice not confined to Ireland, but which prevails as extensively on the coast of Cornwall ; so far was their barbarity carried, that they actually cvit off the fingers of the dead bodies of some women for the purpose of obtaining rings. But you understood there was no other individual actually employed in saving the lives of those soldiers.? — I believe no other. From whom do you get 3^our information ; have you examined into it yourself? — I recollect the statement made in the public newspaper at the time ; I recollect the statement made by Mr. M'Dougal ; and I have also the statement of Kirwin himself. How great a length of time elapsed between tliis conversation which you had with Mr. M'Dougal and the public statement which you made, to which your examination has been directed ? — I cannot state with much distinctness; I think about three or four years. Had you made inquiry into the facts in the interval at all ? — I made none ; I knew that those transports had been wrecked ; I knew that this Kirwin had distinguished himself by his humanity, §96 filCHARD SHIF.LL, ESQ. EXAMINED. and I believed Mr. M'Dougars statement to me (he was a highly respectable gentleman) to be fact. It was then from your recollection of this casual conversation ■with Mr. M'Dougal at this table, and without any particular inquiries as to the conduct of Kirwin in the mean time, that you made the public statement to which reference has been made ? — It was; and in making that statement, I selected the fact with no other view than that of putting the general principle in a more conspiciious light. Have you heard that any other persons were rewarded for having shared in the merits of that transaction to which you refer ? — No. Did Kirwin go out in a boat ? — No ; he is a very expert swim- mer, he swam repeatedly from the shore to the wrecks, and saved the lives of eleven men. Did he state that he was dissatisfied with the reward at the time ? — No ; he appeared on the contrary to be grateful for the little which had been done for him. Has not the 30/. he then received been the chief source of his prosperity since ? — I hardly think, that even in so wretched a country as Ireland, 30/. would be considered as having made a man's fortune. If he had remained in gaol from inability to pay 61. do not you think that 30/. makes a great difference to a man in that situation of life ? — It makes a difference ; but I think government should have taken into their consideration the extent of the service he had performed, and the nobleness of the action, as well as the poverty of his circumstances. Why do you think government ought to have acted upon the representation of Mr. M'Dougal alone, in preference to that of General Doyle ? — I am not disposed to say so ; for it would be very unreasonable, that the government should have preferred the mere dictum of Mr. M'Dougal, to the authorized statement of General Doyle. Did Mr. M'Dougal say, that he had advised a larger sum to be given to this man ? — He did not tell me that he had given any advice at all. He did not tell you, that he had received any reward ? — He told me he had received some reward. Did you mention that in your speech ? — I did not ; and I have before mentioned that ; I perhaps deserve some sort of blame for not having added the fact ; but I consider, that if I had men- tioned, that a man who had saved the lives of eleven persons, among whom there were three officers, had received so miserable a sum as 30/. as a reward, I should not have stated any thing redounding to the credit of government. EICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 287 Do not you think that the officers themselves ought to have given him something ? — I do ; Kirwin said the officers did not give him a single penny. Do you know, that in Ireland, country servants are engaged for five and six pounds a year ? — Yes ; but this man is above the condition of a servant ; he told me, he farms lands at present, for which he pays 100/. a year ; whether his doing so, arises from his having received 30/. I must leave to the Committee to determine. You say, that you merely stated this case, as an instance of the injustice which you knew to prevail in the government, that of excluding the Roman Catholics from situations to which they were otherwise eligible? — I stated that my object in mentioning that circumstance, was to put in a more conspicuous and striking point of view, the principle upon which, I was convinced, that government acted. Upon what facts does your con\action of the mode in which government act, rest.'* — A great majority of the people of Ireland are Roman Cathohcs ; the police which is selected from the lower orders, are almost entirely Protestants. This remark is equally applicable to other pursuits and professions. 1 shall take my own profession as a strong example. Since the year 1793, there have been about one hvnidred and tAventy Roman Catholics admitted to the bar ; some time ago I went to the hanaper office, to ascertain for the present Attorney-General for Ireland, the number of Roman Cathohcs who had been admitted to the bar since 1793 ; I found there had been one hundred and five Roman Catholics and about eight hundred Protestants admitted up to the same period ; not a single Roman Catholic barrister had been promoted, with the exception of Mr. Farrell, (who has been recently appointed, I believe through the personal regard of Lord Wellesley) to any place to which Roman Catholics are admissible by law. The exclusion of so large a body from all employment, led me to the conclusion, that the profession of the Roman Catholic religion was an obstacle to professional promo- tion. It is right that I should here observe, that Mr. Blake, a Roman Cathohc, has been appointed Remembrancer of the court of Exchequer. For that gentleman, Lord Wellesley is known to entertain a strong friendship, which may account for his selec- tion in despite of his religion. He was not a member of the Irish bar, nor is his office, I believe, necessarily connected with the bar. Its duties were formerly filled by ]\Ir. Thompson, an attorney. It is right that I should observe, that my remarks, as to the exclusion of Roman Catholics, were not intended to apply to Lord Wellesley's administration. Let me be permitted to men- tion, as an exemplification of this sectarian principle of selection, a fact in an individual case. Mr. Bellew, who is connected 'vvitb Q 2 S28 RlCHAilD SHIllLL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Lord Finga], and who is a gentleman of a most respectable Ca- tholic family, told me, that Lord Castlereagh had, about the time of the Union, promised him the situation of assistant bar- rister, and when a vacancy occurred, he appHed to the govern- ment to fulfil the promise : he was then informed, that there were reasons which precluded the possibility of appointing him ; but that to reward him for the disappointment, he should receive a pension of 400/. a year, being the salary of assistant barrister ; he added, that he had no doubt upon his mind, that government de- clined to appoint him on account of his rehgion. Is he alive now ? — He is. Did Mr. Bellew mention in what year it was that this took place ? — No, he did not. I believe it was Lord Redesdale who prevented his appointment, inasmuch as Lord Redesdale was of opinion that no Roman Catholic should have a situation in the administration of justice, at all connected with judicial power. Did he get the pension ? — He did, and it was afterwards in- creased ; thus the individual was rewarded, but the class to which he belonged was stigmatized. The government have a great patronage connected with the Irish bar ; there are nearly as many places as there are barristers ; and I think when I find that no Roman Catholic has been appointed since the year 1 793, with the exception of Mr. Farrell, and when I consider that there are many individuals of the Catholic bar, of talent, knowledge, and assiduity, of whom none are promoted, I must conclude that it is their religion which stands in the way of their promotion ; it is the opinion of the Avhole bar that if Mr. Bellew had been a Protes- tant, he would have reached the height of his profession. In consequence of his not having been appointed King's counsel, he has much less business in chancery, for which he is admirably qualified. None but King^s counsel can be much employed in the Irish Court of Chancery. The individual who follows seven or eight King's counsel, cannot expect a very favourable audience. I mention Mr. Bellew's case as one of severe hardship. Mr. Thompson, to whom you have referred, is a barrister, is he not ? — I always imderstood that he was an attorney. These facts illustrate the justice of my assertion, that religion enters into the consideration of the government, in the allocation of its rewards, and in making appointments to situations which Catholics are capable of holding. Sometimes an individual at the bar holds language, with respect to government, which might make it difficult to select him ? — Sometimes individuals use language which may provoke the re- sentment, and perhaps in some cases incur even the just censure of government ; but allowance ought to be made for the use of expressions which are prompted by what those individuals regard RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.' 229 as monstrous wrong ; that language is suggested by not mal emotions. In the midst of large assemblies, the passions of men become heated, and if vehemence of expression is employed, it is provoked by injury, and by that state of feehng which is pro- duced by the law. But the individuals alluded to are few in number. There are not above two or three Cathohc barristers who take such an active share in political proceedings, as can be offensive to government. The rest of the bar*, although greatly irritated by the injustice of their exclusion from place and honour, from motives of personal prudence abstain from all interference, yet the silent and more accommodating persons are as much over- looked as the bolder and more angry few who complain of politi- cal injustice. I may be permitted to add, with respect to the individuals who take a part in public proceedings, that I am per- suaded they not only Mould not employ vehement language in public assemblies, but that if the Catholic question was settled, they would scarcely enter into any public assembly whatever ; at least I can answer for myself, if I had a fair chance of reaching that station in my profession for which my faculties may perhaps disqualify me, but in the Avay to which, in addition to the dis- qualification which may be produced by my incapacity, the law- has created exasperating impediments ; I say if those obstructions were removed, I should take no further part in political concerns, for I am satisfied, that so far from assisting the advancement of an advocate in his profession, an interference in politics arrests his progress, and if I interfere at present, it is because I consider it a duty to use every effort to procure a removal of the disquali- fications under which I labour. Do you think, in case the general question of Catholic emanci- pation were settled by Parliament, there would be a power exist- ing in any individual to get public assemblies together, and to create a combined operation in Ireland ? — I am convinced that it would not be in the power of any man, no matter hoAvever great his influence might be, nor no matter how perverse his ambition might be, to draw large convocations of men together in Ireland ; nothing but the sense of individual injury produces these great and systematic gatherings, through the medium of which so much passion and so much inflammatory matter is conveyed through the country. Let me take the question of the Union as an ex- ample ; there are many who suppose, that if the Catholic ques- tion Avere to be satisfactorily arranged, the merits of the Union Avould be discussed. But I am convinced, that if the Catholic question Avere settled, a great body of the population, so far from being dissatisfied, AA'ould be perfectly contented Avith the Union, or be indifferent to it. Whenever any mention is made in a Roman Catholic assembly of the evils of that measure, it is m^de richArd shiell, esq. examined. for the purposes of rhetorical excitement, and not with any serious view, upon the part of the speaker, to disturb that which, in my humble judgment, is perfectly indissoluble. In answer to the question, I beg to add this, that I am perfectly convinced that neither upon tithes, nor the Union, nor any other political subject, could the people of Ireland be powerfully and permanently ex- cited: at present individuals feel themselves aggrieved by the law, and it is not so much from public sentiment, as from a sense of individual injustice, that they are marshalled and combined together. Do you happen to know the proportions of Roman Catholics and Protestants who are employed in the Police ? — I myself do not know it exactly ; but a Parliamentary return has been pub- lished on the subject, and I believe in the county of Limerick it appears there were not above forty police men Catholic, out of a hundred and fifty. You stated the inequality of the nvmibers as the ground upon which you formed an opinion, that the government was influenced by that principle in making the appointment ? — When I find a decided minority of Roman Catholics in the police, where there is so decided a majority in the population, and where I find the pohce are selected from the lower orders, I must consider religion as the principle on which the selection is made. In Dubhn I be- lieve almost the whole pohce are Protestant. By whom are the police men appointed ? — I believe the pohce men are appointed at present by the chief constables. Speaking on the subject of the police, I may be perhaps allowed to mention the case of one Delap, as connected with the administration of justice, from which subject the examination has diverged. I Was about to state several facts, which shew the administration of justice is not perfectly pure, when I was led from that topic to other matter; I am prepared to state other facts. Did you ever know an instance in which the question of reli- gion actually interfered with the appointment or non-appointment of a police man ? — No ; for my occupations are of such a nature as put me out of the Avay of obtaining knowledge of that kind ; but I can mention a fact which exhibits the feeling of the people upon the subject, and their suspicions generate as great an evil as if that principle operated. I recollect a police man was found guilty at the last assizes at Clonmel, of murder, I walked through tlie streets after the conviction, and attended particularly to tlie observations of the lower orders respecting this conviction. Many of the people said, " We are sure he will not be executed, be- cause he is a Protestant:" that is a most fatal feeling, and means ought to be taken to remove it. Do you think that individual ought to have been executed "t — RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 231 He ought not to have been hanged, because, though it was mur- der in law, it was not in morals : he had drvmk too much ; he was returning to the place where he was quartered from Clonmel, upon a car ; a peasant lad came out on a sudden, in the dusk of the evening, from a house on the road, and made some clamour or noise. The police man conceived that this boy was going to shoot him ; he resolved to anticipate him, and shot him dead ; the boy had no arms in his hands. Under these circumstances it was thought by the judge that the police man ought to be spared ; but the lower orders, without knowing any thing of the facts, said, as a matter of course, " He is a Protestant, and of course will be pardoned."" Do you think the proportion of the population is a considera- tion which ought to guide the government in their appointments ? — I think it ought to be taken into consideration ; government should endeavour to conciliate and tranquillize a great body of the community, who not only have the power of acquiring wealth and intelhgence, but have actually acquired both ; they ought to take into consideration the feelings of that great body, who not only find themselves branded on account of their religion, but who sustain actual and positive depi'ivation. A wise government, in its appointments, ought to regard the feelings of the majority of the people. You go the Leinster circuit.'' — I do. Do you happen to know the proportion that Roman Catholics and Protestants bear to each other in the Excise department ? — I do not ; but I know the Custom-house of Dublin was filled not only with Protestants, but with Orangemen ; that evil, I believe, has been cured; I believe a great purification of the Custom-house has taken place. In what mode has the purification been effected ? — I believe, by the Commissioners appointed for the purpose. Has it been by the removal of the Protestants, or the insertion of Catholics.'' — I believe it has arisen from making a selection from a better and a more fitting class ; the Custom-house was an object of patronage with the government ; Members of Parliament constantly exercised their influence for the purpose of obtaining small places connected with the Custom-house : in consequencej very unworthy persons were appointed ; those persons were gene- rally Protestants ; being brought together into one office, their feelings were strengthened by cohesion ; they valued themselves on their religion ; men assumed the pretensions of high gentlemen, who had only one qualification of a gentleman in Ireland, namely, the Protestant religion. What principle do you suppose influenced the Members of Parliament in reconnnendirig those per.jons ? — The Members of 232 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Parliament who recommended the individuals did not probably take their religion at all into the account ; but the persons em- ployed in the Custom-house were of the description I have men- tioned, and put on all the airs and insolence of Orangeism. Do you know that in the Revenue there are very few Ro- man Catholics? — I do not; I know some persons who have been employed in the Custom-house ; I learned from them, that the clerks were Orangemen ; their discourse turned upon the necessity of keeping Papists down. The point with which 3'ou set out was, that there was not a fair opening to the admission of Roman Catholics, and that the Roman Catholics were excluded by the practice of the govern- ment? — I stated it with reference to the police, and with re- spect to my own profession, of which, of course, I have more accurate knowledge ; with respect to the Revenue, I believe the majority of persons in employment are Protestants, and also Orangemen, but I am not able to state whether the principle of their original appointment Avas connected with religion; the supporters of Ascendency would naturally take rehgion into account. Are you aware that Mr. Thery, the Commissioner of Excise, and Mr. Troy, who is at present Collector of Limerick, are both Catholics ? — I am aware of it ; Mr. Thery told me he was appointed in consequence of a special recommendation from Mr. Edmund Rurke, given many years ago, and afterwards attended to. Do you know at what time they were admitted ; by what Ad- ministration ? — I believe it was by the Bedford Administration. You mean to say then, that, in point of fact, the Roman Catholics do not enjoy a fair proportion of the patronage of government ? — I am sure of it ; the promotions at the bar establish the fact. Do you know any thing of the Post-office in Dublin ? — No ; I know only one individual who holds a place in the Post-office of Dublin, and he is a Roman Catholic ; but he has informed me, that the conversation wliich takes place in the Post-office among the clerks (persons holding offices analogous to his own) per- petually turns upon the necessity of supporting Orangemen, and keeping the Papists in subjection. Do you know the proportion of Roman Catholics and Pro- testants in that establishment ? — I do not. Wliich do you think preponderate ? — If I may be allowed to conjecture, or to do more than conjecture, and to presume that government act, with respect to the Post-office, in the same way as I believe they do with respect to other departments, I should say that Protestants preponderate. 'Jlie Pobt-office is not a department on wliich you have formed RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 233 your opinion of the conduct of government, in this instance ? — No; but when I find that my Lord O'Neill is at the head of the Post-office, and is also notoriovisly at the head of the Orange party, I presume that his opinions have not only been conununi- cated to those who act in inferior departments, but if he has any patronage, of course he exercises it in favour of persons who sym- pathize in politics with himself. If you found that the majority of persons employed in the Post-office were Roman Catholics, what Avould be your infer- ence ? — My inference certainly would not be, that they had been appointed in consequence of being Roman Cathohcs ; and I should not be able to account for the circumstances, unless they were persons eminently well qualified, who had been recom- mended, on the ground of that quahfication, by an excellent officer, Sir Edward Lees. In the case of Protestants, you would conceive they had been appointed in consequence of their religion? — I think it would assist their appointment. If I were opposed to the Catholic claims, and anxious to support the system of Ascendency, I should consider the most efficient mode of supporting that sys- tem would be, to exclude Catholics from even inferior situations, and thus deprive them of the influence which those situations would confer. By holding such employments, Roman Catholics Avould obtain another step on the ladder. The greater the in- fluence of the Catholic body, the more diffScult it must be to resist their claims to emancipation. It is with a view to ulte- rior objects, that they are excluded from minor offices. It is in order to diminish the weight and consequence of the whole body of Cathohcs, and sustain the general system of Ascendency, that they are denied their due pai'ticipation in the places of emolu- ment, to which they are admissible by law. This is the result of the general spirit of the penal code, which, independantly of its evils upon society, works much individual wrong. If it should appear that the majority were Roman Cathohcs, why would not you attribute that circumstance to favour to the Roman Cathohcs, as you state, that if the majority were Pro- testants, you would attribute it to favour and partiality to them .'' — Because there is reason for the one, and not for the other. You stated, that you conceive appointments ought to be made according to the proportion of the population ? — I do. Do you think that principle has apphcation to the bar? — I think government ought to take it into consideration. I know that the appointment of Mr. Farrell has been a most popular measure ; I know that it gave great satisfaction to tlie people, and I am sure it would be conducive to the purposes of tran- 234 RICHAUD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED quillity, if the lower orders saw persons of their own religion intrusted with office and autliority. Do you mean to say, that founding the principle of selection on the proportion of numbers, a less qualified person ought to be appointed to any situation, merely on account of that supposed proportion between the numbers ? — I do not ; but I know, and it IS the opinion of the persons highest at the bar, that Roman Catholics are fully as well qualified as Protestants- Then you mean to infer, that, cccteris paribus^ the claims of merit, regard ought to be paid to mmibers ? — Certainly ; with a view to the conciliation of the people, it is more important to conciliate the majority of the people who are Catholic, than to gratify the cupidity of the majority of the bar, who are at present Protestant. Besides, Roman Catholics being excluded from the higher offices, the government ought, injustice, to make up for that exclusion by appointing them to the inferior. You state, that the proportion of Protestants to Catholics, at the bar, is about five to one ? — It was recently so ; but that pro- portion is becoming essentially difFetent. The Roman Catholic bar are rapidly increasing, and they will, in my opinion, increase in a greater proportion than the comparative property of Protes- tants and Catholics would lead one to svippose. A Roman Catholic who acquires money in trade, makes his son a barrister. It is a feather in his cap to have a counsellor in the family. The bar in Ireland enjoys more station than in this country; and to enrol his son in this class, who, from the absence of persons of real rank, enjoy an artificial importance, has become an object of ambition. There are more Roman Catholics in trade than Protestants, and, in consequence, the number of Ro- man Catholics sent to the bar from this motive, must exceed the number of Protestants. Besides, the Protestant church enables its members to provide for their families, by making parsons of their sons. The Catholic is deprived of this source of provision, and sends his sons to the bar. I recollect, that about two years ago, eight gentlemen were called, in the same term, to the bar : four of them were Protestants, and four were Catholics. Previous to four years ago, the proportion of Protestants to Roman Catholics was considerably greater ? — Yes. The proportion of Roman Catholic barristers you think is augmenting ? — Yes, rapidly ; and in the course of a few years, the number of Catholics and Protestants, I think, will be nearly the same. At present they are five to one, and before a late period, the proportion of Protestants Avas greater.!^ — Yes: I shall mention a reason why the number of Protestant barristers should, as yet, so RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 235 much exceed that of Catholics ; Protestants come to the bar, not only Avith a view to rise in their profession by the exercise of their talents, but because the expectation of patronage allures them to a profession to which so many places are annexed. Do you think it possible that any previous government, finding the proportion of Protestant barristers to Roman Catholics, sup- posing their acquirements to be equal, could have gone upon the principle of appointing Catholic barristers in the proportion of the Roman Cathohc population to the Protestant .'' — Not, cer- tainly, in the same proportion ; but I think that Cathohc bar- risters ought not to have been excluded, and regard ought to have been had to the feelings of the great body of the people, which would have been conciliated by their nomination of Roman Catholics. You stated, that the Roman Catholics bear a great dispropor- tion to those of the Reformed Church, in the Police in Ireland? —I believe that appears from the Parliamentary return. Did you ever hear that the Roman Catholics had a di^clyia- tion to serve in the police in Ireland ? — I never did ; on 1 he contrary, I am sure they have no objection. Did you never hear that they looked upon the police as 1 he realization of some old prophecy about a black militia which was to arise, at this period, and to kill all the Roman Cathohcs ? — I never heard any such thing. Have you turned in your mind the question of the qualifica- tion at present required for a Roman Catholic freeholder ? — I have not given it a great deal of attention ; but this I will say, that if it was put to the Roman Catholic body whether they would accept of Roman Catholic emancipation upon the indis- pensable terms of raising the qualification of the freeholders. Ca- tholic emancipation is a matter of such paramount moment, that the people would be ready, and more than ready, that they would be most anxious, to accept of emancipation even upon such conditions; and I further think, that so far from its being an injury, it would be a benefit to the lower orders, that the quali- fication should be raised, and that the mass of the peasantry should not be invested every five or six years with a mere resem- blance of political authority, which does not naturally belong to them, and which is quite unreal. Do you think it would be in any respect practicable to effect an alteration in the qualification of the freeholder, unless accom- panied with the measure to which you have already alluded ?— I think Catholic emancipation shoukl bt' made the precursor of such a measure ; I am convinced that if such a measure Avas at- tempted without Catholic emancipation, it would only tend to produce deeper bitterness of feeling than now exists. 236 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Are you aware of the proportion of Roman Catholics and Protestants in the Excise ? — I am not. Are you not aware that the gaugers in the excise are generally Roman Cathohcs ? — I am not. What is your opinion respecting making a government Pro- vision for the Catholic clergy ? — I am convinced that the Roman Catholic clergy would accept of such a provision, if Roman Ca- tholic emancipation were to precede it. Would they accept of it without emancipation.'' — I am sure that they Avould not. Do you think that it would cause any jealousy on the part of the Roman Catholic laity ? — I think that if the provision to be granted by government Avere to be subject to the control of go- vernment, in individual cases there would be much jealousy, because the appointment would be referred to unworthy motives ; I think the provision for the Roman Catholic clergy must be made in its allocation to individuals, independent of the govern- ment. You think it must be allocated to the duties, and not to the persons ? — I think that there must be an allocation made to the duties, and that the individuals who are to fulfil those duties, and to be paid for their performances, must be selected by the hierarchy and not by the government ; I think it would be very injurious that a parish priest, receiving three or four hundred a year of the treasury, should by named by the government. Do you think Catholic emancipation would be a perfect mea- sure Avithovit the payment of the priesthood, and without raising the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise ? — With respect to the raising the qualification of freeholders, I am not perhaps very well competent to judge, for I have not resided much in the country parts of Ireland, nor am I much acquainted with the lower orders ; but I am well acquainted with the Roman Catholic clergy, and in my opinion, if a provision were granted to them, provided always it was made independent of the go- vernment (that is indispensable) the result would be, that the lower orders would not be alienated from the priesthood, but that the influence of the latter would continue to be usefully and legitimately exercised, that they Avould be perfectly reconciled with the government, and that the Roman Cathohc gentry would be induced to send the younger members of their families into the Roman Cathohc church, a better system of education would be established, and the intellectual habits of the priesthood would become more refined. You mean, that the provision should be inahenable, after it was once granted ? — I mean, that when a vacancy occurs by the death of a parish priest (I take the case of a parish priest as an RICHARD SHtELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 237 example) the person who is to succeed is not to be selected by the government ; that is all I mean to say. If the appointment were to be made by the government, two evils would result ; in the first place, the lower orders would be quite ahenated from their clergy (which wovild be a most serious evil) ; and in the second place, I conceive that unworthy persons would be appointed. How is the appointment made at present ? — The appointment of the parish priest at present is made by the bishop. The Roman Cathohc bishop of the diocese has the absolute appointment to all the parishes within his diocese.? — Yes; but the Roman Catholic hierarchy, though absolute in name, are greatly under the influence of pubhc opinion ; they generally select the individual whom the parishioners wish to nominate. They consult the wish of the parishioners in the appointment ? —Yes. Do you think any interference whatever, direct or indirect, on the part of government, in the appointment of the bishop, would be equally objected to ? — I myself, at one time, supported what is commonly called the veto. My opinion Avas, that Roman Ca- tholic emancipation, or in other words, the liberty of my countr}^, ought to be purchased, even at some hazard ; but I think the measure of a veto would (I will not say whether on just or unjust grounds) be extremely unpopular. The public mind has been heated upon the subject ; the passions have been highly raised, and will not subside with rapidity ; and I think that if the govern- ment were to insist on a veto, it would impede, for some time at least, the beneficial results of Catholic emancipation. Do you mean by veto, the giving the crown an absolute vote ? — I do ; but I think any interference in the appointment of bishops objectionable ; I am not sure, however, whether in the course of two or three years, when the people had become habi- tuated to the exercise of this restrictive power, the public feeling would not become, if not reconciled to it, at least apathetic on the subject ; but I certainly am apprehensive that if the govern- ment possessed, without ever directly exercising this power, some suspicions as to the rectitude of the motives of men in office in interfering in the appointment of bishops would exist, and that suspicion would in itself be an evil which ought to be avoided. Do not you think, after the measure of general emancipation has been carried, supposing it to be carried, and the administra- tion of the government with respect to the highest offices remained in the hands of government, their motives with respect to the ap- pointment to subordinate offices would be very narrowly inquired into by the Roman Catholic body ? — I am sure they would not ; I think that Roman Cathohcs would obtain, if not places of high authority, at least places proximate to authority. Roman Catlio- Q38 RICHARD SHifeLL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Jics would obtain seats in Parliament, some would support and otliej s oppose the government, all sectarian sentiment would be merged in political interest ; such Roman Catholics as displayed talents would, I presume, be advanced by government for their sei'vices, and if a few only of the Catholic body were promoted, all suspicion of partiality would be at an end. That is on the assumption that the removal of disability by Jaw is perfectly and fairly acted upon by the executive govern^ nient, and that individuals, according to their merit, being Roman Catholics, are promoted to the higher offices of the state ? — I have assumed that the government would act with impartiality to a certain extent, but althovigh the government should show some leaning in the distribution of its favours towards Protestants, and as they are seised of the greater part of the landed property of Irela,nd, for a considerable time the principal places would be given to the members of the established church, I still think the Jloman Catholic body would not be sore upon the subject, if they saw Roman Catholics raising themselves to real distinction, and obtaining the power of protecting the community to which they belonged ; they would not murmur at some preference being still manifested towards Protestants ; a single individual of talent in the House of Commons, professing the Roman Catholic religion, and repi-esenting the feelings of the Roman Catholics, would to a great degree allay the spirit of hostility which prevails among the great body of the people of Ireland ; because they would then feel that their rights were asserted, and that they had a voice in the legislature. In the profession of the law, where the possession of property cannot be expected to have great weight, some reference would be made to the respective numbers at the bar, of Roman Catholics and Protestants ? — I think the Roman Catholics wovdd not be so un- reasonable as not to take into account, in the first place, that the Protestants at the bar are more nvnuerous, and in the second, that they have more patronage and more influence ; but I think they would justly resent the omission to raise qualified persons to the rank of King's counsel. Or to the judicial bench, if they have talent ? — I doubt that ; there are but twelve judges, and no individual can complain that he is not appointed to the judgment seat, as matter of personal injustice; it is, indeed, unjust that a whole class should be inca- pacitated by law. The exclusion from the bench is a political grievance which affects the whole body of Catholics, and carries a stigma with it ; the ineligibility of the body is quite distinct from the non-election of the man. The omission to raise a Roman Catholic of high merit to the right of King's counsel is an indivi- dual wrong, it throws him back in his profession, touches his pecu- RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 239 niary interests, places his inferiors in acquirement above his head, and wounds his honourable pride. There is a power of granting a patent of precedency to a Roman Catholic ^ — Yes ; but it has never been exercised. When you express that the Roman Catholics would consent to the freeholders qyahfication being considerably raised, you conceive it would be a general measure, extending to Protestants as well as Catholics ? — Certainly ; if a distinction was taken, our elections would be scenes of religious agitation. But that the qualification for Presbyterians, Dissenters, Church- men, and Roman CathoHcs should be the same .? — Yes ; and I think, that when the election law is about to be modified, it would not be injudicious, if persons having beneficial chattels real, should be entitled to vote ; a man, with a lease for 999 years, which yields him forty or fifty pounds a year, should have a vote. Do you think an arrangement of that kind, which would dis- qualify persons actually in possession of that francliise, and wliich they had exercised, and never abused, would give satisfaction to them ? — I think the great body of the people of Ireland, particu- larly the freeholders, are greatly swayed by the higher class. I am sure that Mr. 0''Connell''s influence is so great, that if Catholic emancipation were passed, he would reconcile them to the surrender of that, which is to a great extent, but an imaginary right. Do yovi think he would reconcile the Presbyterian dissenters to it ? — There his influence would be without effect ; I am not at all acquainted with the north of Ireland, and I cannot say how the Presbyterians would feel ; but with respect to the south of Ireland, I believe the tenant, who has by virtue of forty shillings, a qualifi- cation to vote, would yield what is but a wretched appendage to his few acres of land, without much regret. Supposing another gentleman should arise, who took another view of this from IVCr. O'Connell, and should protest against the opinion of Mr. O'Connell, and should hold, that they were in pos- session of this right ; that it was a right they had always exercised ; that they had never abused it ; some person like Doctor Doyle for instance : do not you think he might create a considerable party in the south of Ireland, in favour of retaining the elective fran- chise ? — I think not ; I think, indeed, that the lower orders in Iceland, can be easily influenced by an appeal to their religious feel- ings : they feel greatly irritated at seeing every Protestant that passes them, their superior ; there is the point on which they are sore ; with respect to the elective franchise, I do not think any individual Avould be able to excite any permanent feeling ; the subject is not naturally connected with religion. Being easily excited on subjects connected with religion, sup- posing those to whom they looked up in religion were to consider 240 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. this a diminution of their influence, and were to protest against it, do not you think the influence of persons, who took that view of the subject, might create a considerable impression ? — I think that the Roman Cathohc, of the lower orders, could not be induced to think, that his religion was endangered by a general modification of the elective franchise. On the subject of the veto, the clergy have naturally exercised a very considerable influence ; but there is no such connexion between the elective franchise and religion, whicli would give any man the means of exciting the religious passions on that ground. Have not cases occurred recently, in elections for counties, in which the influence of the priest has been very greatly exerted ? — No doubt about it ; but the influence of the priest in elections, arises from the question of Roman Catholic emancipation, and none other. It is in reference to that question, that it is exclu- sively exercised. If a priest came forward at an election, and directed the people not to vote for any man who would not sup- port Parliamentary reform, the people would not listen to him ; but when he tells them, not to vote for any man but who Avill not support the Catholic claims, he makes an appeal, which in my opinion is justified by reason and sovmd sense ; he could not, I think, produce any impression on the lower orders, except on some subject immediately involving a religious question, and not colla- terally connected with it. If he said, " do not vote for any man who will vote for the dis- qualifying of the freeholders," would not he make an impression ? — I am sure he would not ; and I am sure the priests would feel no interest in the subject, and would not interfere. In the county of Dubhn, the clergy exercised influence at the last election, but it was on a subject in which the clergy and people had a common concern ; besides the passions of the people ai*e at present ex- tremely inflammable. It is only necessary to apply a spark to set them on fire ; but even now it would be impossible to excite the people on a subject not involving their religion, and if eman- cipation were passed, a different feehng would speedily prevail, and the power of excitation would be diminished, because the popular passions would be allayed. It is the law which now creates the materials of public excitement. Supposing the civil disabilities of the Roman Catholics were removed, and that in a county election there were two candidates, a Protestant and a Roman Catholic, do not you think it would be possible for the priest to make a very strong appeal to his flock, in favour of the Roman Catholic candidate ? — He might make an appeal, but I think it would be unavailing ; there would be an end to their political resentments. Even now, the Catholic priests are in the most cordial intimacy with Protestants ; they RICHATID SHTELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 241 perpetually dine with them ; habits of close friendship exist be- tween the Roman Catholic priesthood and the Protestants ; there is no individual distaste towards the Protestant existing in the mind of the Catholic priest ; he feels an antipathy only to the system by which he and his countrymen are kept in what he con- siders a state of degradation. Then the existence of civil disabilities has created no disgust between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants? — I think where the Protestant gentry do not oppose Catholic emancipa- tion, the priests and they are upon a good footing ; but that where a Protestant gentleman opposes CathoHc emancipation, he at once becomes an object of antipathy to the priesthood, in com- mon with the rest of the Cathohc community. You do not mean your last answer then to apply generally, as describing the state of feeling ? — No ; I confine it of course to what we call liberal Protestants, to whom the priests entertain a partiality. AVhat are the others called? — They are classed under the comprehensive name of Orangemen ; some, of course, are more conspicuous for theu* hostiUty than others, and incur a corres- ponding aversion. You make a distinction between a man who is an Orangeman and a man who is tinctured with Orangeism ? — There are some professed Orangemen, men who make Orangeism a matter of boast ; they are extremely obnoxious. Others, who merely oppose Catholic emancipation, are looked upon ^\^th feehngs of more mitigated aversion. As the admission to Parliament, in case of the question of Catholic emancipation being carried, could be granted merely to Catholics of the higher orders of society, are you of opinion that such a boon granted to them would be a reasonable ground, or a probable ground of satisfaction to the lower orders of freeholders, for the loss of the elective franchise, if the amount of the qualifi- cation be raised, and the forty-shilling freeholder done away with ? — I am convinced of it. Would not the circumstance of granting emancipation remove all prejudices that might exist in respect of the alteration of the quahfication of freeholders ? — I am convinced it would. Have you read the statement of Mr. Burke on the subject of the elective franchise, where he describes the value of it to a poor man ; do you recollect the arguments ui'ged in 1 793, that there was actually a distinction made in the letting of land between Roman Catholics and Protestants, that the Roman Catholic was never courted by a rich man who was his neighbour ; but that the Protestant received civility from him in return for his vote, and that a great practical distinction arose in consequence of the 242 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. disability under which the Roman Catholic laboured? — I re- collect that argument was used, and I think if there were only a few freeholders, that argument w ould hold good ; but where an immense number of freeholders can be made by a single person, (I think the Earl of Glengal has made 2,000 freeholders in the county of Tipperary,) there is then an end of the prerogative which a freeholder is supposed to possess. The peasantry are driven in droves of freeholders to the hustings : they must obey the command of their landlord ; it is only in cases of peculiar emergency, and where their passions are powerfully excited, that a revolt against the power of the landlord can take place. In the county of Dublin there were two strong reasons why, at the last election, the tenant did not obey the landlord. The first was, the intense interest which was felt in Catholic emancipation, and upon no other subject could so intense an interest be felt ; and in the second place, the peasantry were put, by their utter misery, arising from their fall of prices, beyond the landlord's power; the landlord could not injure them, for they had nothing to lose; they had no interest in their lands, and the argument put to them by Mr. CConnell was this, if you disobey your landlords what will be the result ? they must seek for other tenants ; where will they get them .? at the mendicity association in the city of Dublm. The county of Dublin election affords no illustration of the rest of Ireland ; it stands on its peculiar grounds. Do you think a powerful appeal might be made to the people on this ground, supposing the arrangement which you think on the whole a desirable arrangement, were to be carried into effect, here is an arrangement made by Parliament, the effect of which is to open Parliament and Office to the upper classes of the Roman Catholics, but the compromise required on your side is, that you, the great mass of the people, who never can sit in Par- liament, and to whom Office is no object, are to be deprived of the only privilege that, practically, you are likely to enjoy ? — I do not think any efficient appeal could be made among the lower order of the Roman Catholics (independently of some points in which I think their interests are deeply concerned) ; a feeling of wounded {)ride is excited by the state of the law ; they think that they be- ong to a degraded caste ; this sentiment operates strongly upon them, and a mere imagination on their part will produce practical results, just as pernicious as if the grievance were admitted to be as substantial as I am disposed to think it. The people conceive that they are degraded by the law ; that Protestants are placed above their head, and that the Protestant in authority will have a leaning towards the members of his own class. This feeling produces deep concern. Let me add, that this feeling is justified and provoked by the perpetual occurrence of irritating circum- RiCliARt) SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 243 Stances. The lower order of Protestants assert their superiority to the poorer Catholics in every incident where they are brought into comparison. Allow me to give an example : Sander's news- paper in the city of Dubhn contains most of the advertisements of servants ; every servant who is a Protestant makes mention of his religion in his advertisement for a place ; he thereby intimates that he belongs to a better class in society ; that he is probably a more decent and respectable man ; assuredly, this superiority, as- sumed by the lower classes of Protestants in society, must be ex- tremely galling to the Roman Cathohcs ; it meets them at every step. To return to the question put to me, I conceive that the Roman Catholic freeholders would be reconciled, by the ascent they would make in the political scale, to the deprivation of what is in reality no substantial enjoyment. They would purchase equahty yviih the Protestant servant and mechanic, at the expense of a useless vote. If they argue so sensitively on points of this nature, cannot they argue equally sensitively on this point ; or may not a person make use of that argument to dissatisfy their minds with this ar- rangement, by which they are the only losers ? — I do not think that any person who engaged in such an enterprise would suc- ceed ; when the qualification of a freeholder is raised, there is an incentive to honourable exertion given to the peasant : you do not tell him he shall never vote, but you tell him, that in order to exercise this privilege he must acquire an interest of five or ten pounds a-year; he has always hope before him. The Roman Cathohc peasant would not consider himself as deprived of any valuable possession ; most of the peasantry would expect to be able by industry to raise themselves at last to the qualification; a freehold would become an object of ambition, and would be a real and honourable privilege. Will not the Catholics, in case emancipation is carried, consider that measure as merely conferring advantages upon the upper orders? — Certainly not. Will it be to them and by them considered as a measure con- ferring advantages upon themselves ? — They think it will confer great advantages upon themselves, and it will, in my opinion, confer those advantages by producing a reconciliation between the higher and lower orders, by banishing the suspicion of injustice, and generating an amicable sentiment towards the government, which will conduce to the gradual diffusion of peaceable points, by teaching the people to look up to the law as their certain protec- tion, instead of seeking redress by acts of outrage, and by effacing that hue of religious demarcation which has rooted a disposition to insult in the privileged and fevered class, and a feeling of deep resentment in the lower orders of the community. The Catholics R 2 244 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. are constantly made the objects of the most galling contumely. I shall mention an example aiForded by a person in the employ- ment of government ; a gentleman at the head of the police in the county of Wexford, not long ago told a number of Roman Catholics who happened to be assembled together, that he would direct his police men to shoot the Papists hke rats. This insult excited the strongest feeling of resentment among them; the result was, that an investigation was directed by the lord lieu- tenant into the matter; the Roman Catholic Association sent down counsel; it was ascertained that those words had been spoken, and the gentleman who had spoken them was removed from that place and sent to another. It is quite obvious that such words would never have been used, if the ignominious dis- tinction between Catholic and Protestant were removed. If a Protestant gentleman employed language so insulting, what may not be expected from the lower orders of Protestants. The word *' Papist" is constantly in their mouths. The degradation with which it is supposed to be attended, excites feelings of the deepest animosity among the people. There would be an end to those animosities at once if the Catholic question were settled, because there would be an end to that injurious ascendency, which is per- sonal as well as political. Do they conceive that granting emancipation would, from this situation of degradation, raise them to a footing of proper equality ■with their fellow subjects ? — I am certain of it. Do they talk much about the question, or take much interest in it ? — It is, I understand from those who know them best, the subject which chiefly occupies their attention. Do you mean among the lower orders ? — Yes, among the lower orders. Why are they to be considered as disqualified from exercising the elective franchise, if they are in the constant habit of talking on elective matters ? — They all know the power of their landlords. The landlord requires a very high rent, which generally speaking the tenant is not able to pay, and if the tenant disobeys the land- lord at the election, he will not of course take into account the inabihty of the tenant to discharge his rent, but will immediately distrain him. The peasantry therefore have no discretion on the subject. Deducting that influence from the landlord, you think that from their general intelligence they are capable of making a pro- per distinction between the individuals who are candidates for the county, and thus exercising their elective franchise ? — They may be quahfied to form a judgment upon the Catholic question, which is a subject that touches them nearly ; they have perpetual opportunities of observing and feeling the practical evils that re- RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 245 suit from the penal code; and they are therefore qualified to judge upon the fitness of an individual to sit in Parliament, so far as that question is concerned. It is upon that question only that they now exercise any opinion. What do you think would be the effect of a law, which raised the qualification to a twenty-pound freehold, would it be to throw more power into the hands of the Protestant voter than he at present possesses ? — I am not very well qualified to give an opi- nion upon the subject ; I have heard among Roman Catholics themselves, a great dissent of opinion with respect to it. I believe, that in some counties it would operate in one way, and in other counties in a different way ; but I am sure of this, that free- holders, whose qualification was raised, would be quite free from religious prejudice, and would be disposed to consult their own. individual interests in giving their votes, without any'sort of re- ference to the particulai form of Christianity professed by any candidate. You think there would not be any partiality, on the part of a Roman Catholic voter, in favour of a Roman Catholic candidate? — I think that after a year, or some such short period, aftei' the question had been carried, no such partiality would be mani- fested. I know that at first there might be some ebullition of popular sentiment ; even now, a Protestant, entertaining opinions favourable to the Roman Catholic claims, is rather preferred to a Roman Catholic by the people, than regarded with any evil eye. I am quite convinced that elections wovild, in Ireland, be decided by higher personal and political qualifications, and by the as- cendancy of wealth and rank. As an illustration, I beg to mention that the plebeians of ancient Rome, who were excluded for a considerable time from offices of honour and emolument, which excited deep animosities in the commonwealth, elected a patrician to the praetorship, immediately after the power of electing a plebeian had been obtained. Livy says, that the circumstance deserves note. There would be an end to all re- ligious faction in Ireland, when the law had ceased to provoke it ; and former feuds would be speedily forgotten. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Veneris 4 die Martii, 1825. LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR Daniel O'Connelly Esquire, again called in; and made the fol- lowing Statement: In consequence of a question proposed to me, by an honour- able member of the Committee, respecting the Orange lecture, I thought it right to look out for the entry of that which he alluded to, and I have brought it here ; it is what I got as the Orange lecture, taken from the 68th Psalm, and it entirely con- firms his statement of it; with the permission of the Committee, I willreadit — "From whence came you?" " From the deep," — «'What deep?" " The deep of the sea,"' — «' Whither go you?" *' To the hill." — " What hill ? " " Even an high hill as the hill of Bashan." — "Who shall conduct you thither?" "The Lord of whom Cometh salvation." — " Have you a pass-word?" " I have." — *' Will you give it to me?" *' I did not obtain it so myself, but I will divide it with a true brother, knowing him to be such;" then the querist, " Begin — Answer — no, do you begin. Que- rist, Re-answer. Mem. querist, ber. Re-mem-ber." This is the entrance pass-word, and is accompanied with three knocks ; the grand pass-word is " Sinai." The sign is made by putting the fourth finger of the right-hand to the mouth ; the answer is, by the other person placing his right hand upon his left breast. I beg leave to add to that, that of course my own private belief goes entirely with the assertion of the honourable member, being quite convinced that he would say nothing of his own knowledge but what was perfectly true; and if I shall ever have an opportunity of speaking upon this subject again in public, I will take care to accompany any thing I say, with the confidence I have in the honourable gentleman's asser- tion, and having said that I would wish to point his attention to the psalm itself, because I give up my informer entirely; and may I be allowed to say, that the gentleman to whom I gave my honour not to mention his name, though he knew me well, as I understood, was a student of Trinity College, but I could not tell his name positively, I only conjecture his name ; I con- sider him therefore, and the person who informed me for money, as certainly persons on whom no faith can be distinctly relied, that I think right to say now. The psalm itself is the 68th, it begins " Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered; let them also that hate him flee before him." The hill of Bashan is mentioned in the words of the 15th verse; " The hill of God DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 247 is as the hill of Bashan, an high hill as the hill of Bashan;" those are the very words, and the 17th has the pass-word, " Sinai." " The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels, the Lord is among them as in the holy place of Sinai." Then, " Who shall conduct you thither? The Lord, of whom cometh salvation." That is taken from the 20th verse. " He is our God even the God of whom cometh salvation ;" Then the place they come from — " From the deep — what deep?" The deep of the sea, is taken from the twenty- second verse. " The Lord hath said I will bring my people again as I did from Bashan, mine own will I bring again as I did sometime from the deep of the sea." Then it is in the next verse, comes the object of bringing them from the deep of the sea. "That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and that the tongue of thy dogs may be red through the same ;" so that as they come from the deep of the sea conducted by the Lord God, how easily a vulgar furious person of the lower class might add this verse to that very one from which the first part is taken, as in fact it makes part of the same sentence. I wish to give that explanation as the reason that my credit was attached even to a person that I would not easily believe ; however I repeat again, that what the honourable member said, has considerably aflfected any belief I had upon that subject; in as far as gentle- men of his class are concerned, I am convinced ; but there are low and vulgar persons also Orangemen. Will you be good enough to inform the Committee, from what law offices Catholics are excluded in Ireland? — TheCatholics are excluded from all the superior offices of the law ; from the office of Chancellor, from the office of the Master of the Rolls, the Judges of the Court of Exchequer, Common Pleas, King's Bench, Admi- ralty Courts, Ecclesiastical Courts ; of course from all those sta- tions : they are also excluded from the office of Attorney or Soli- citor General, or Serjeant, Counsel to the Revenue Boards,which in Ireland are places of very great emolument, and also from the office of King's Counsel, the salary of which, I believe, is about thirty-six shillings a year, the advantages of which are very great even in this country, but are infinitely greater in Ireland, where we practise in all the courts, and where prece- dence is infinitely more valuable to each individual : Catholics cannot be Masters in Chancery. Can a Catholic be a proctor in the Ecclesiastical Court? — In practice they are not allowed to be so ; I do not recollect whe- ther the law precludes them, but in practice they are not; I believe the law excludes them. Catholics are not allowed to be advocates, although in point of law they may be such; Mr. Lynch, a gentleman of the bar, a Catholic, applied for a man- 248 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. damns, he being qualified in every other respect, in such a way, that if he were a Protestant the right would have been ad- mitted at once : he was a doctor of laws, and he applied for a mandamus to compel Doctor Duigenan to admit him to prac- tise as an advocate ; but it was held by the Court of King's Bench, that it was discretionary with the Judge of the Ecclesiastical Court to admit an advocate, and no Catholic has been admitted as an advocate : the practice of the Ecclesiastical Court is, that if there be one advocate in a cause, other counsel may assist him, as they call it, who are not advocates ; but the consequence of that is, that the conducting of Ecclesiastical causes is taken away entirely from the Catholic barristers ; and every gentle- man who knows the profession, knows that no young man rises into considerable business with us that did not begin by being a conducting counsel in particular causes, doing the business out of court, preparing the pleading, advising each stage of the proceeding, having the agent or proctor communicating with him confidentially in the cause. Catholics cannot be sheriffs or sub-sheriffs? — Catholics can- not be sheriffs ; it was the received opinion that they could not be sub-sheriffs; my opinion is otherwise, and accordingly for the last two years thei-e have been Catholic sub-sheriffs ; they have acted upon my opinion. There is an Act of Parliament distinctly making void certain acts of sub-sheriffs; but from the entire construction of that Act I think they are not disqualified, and I published an opinion upon it, showing my view of their capacity to be sub-sheriffs ; and for the last two years they have been so sometimes. Are Catholics excluded from all corporation offices? — From all corporation offices regulated by the Act of Settlement, the new rules and regulations to the statute of the 15th and 16th of Charles the Second, to the best of my recollection; the Act of Settlement authorized the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Coun- cil to make rules and I'egulations by a proclamation, which should have the force of law, in the arrangement of corpora- tions in future, to avoid danger from the republican settlers who had got possession of the corporations ; I mean the Crom \ wellian settlers ; and by those rules and regulation no corporate office can be held without taking the oath of supremacy, which Catholics do not take. In the statute of 1793, there was an ex- ception; that statute does not extend to any thing contrary to the new rules and regulations. I believe the framers of that Act were not apprised of the extent of exclusion that was created by that exception. The new rules and regulations apply to all the principal corporations in Ireland, to everyone worth speak- ing of; and the result of them is, that the Catholics cannot be DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 249 mayors, sheriffs, aldermen, common councilmen, sub-sheriff in corporations, town clerks, master or warden of any guild, or fill any station in a corporation save that of simple freemen, which is not a station, but is the possession of the franchise. Can Catholics hold the office of governor of a county? — No. Or that of custos rotulorum ? — No. Then after the description you have given of the offices from which they are excluded, the following are the whole of the remainder that are excepted in tTie Act of 1793, namely, the office of Lord Lieutenant, Lord Chancellor, Lord High Trea- surer, Secretary of State, Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu- tenant, Keeper of the Privy Seal, Vice Treasurer, Privy Councillor, Teller or Cashier of the Exchequer, Auditor Ge- neral and Postmaster G eneral ? — Yes ; but in that list there are most important situations omitted, an omission that is the cause, perhaps, of all we consider grievous ; we are excluded from both Houses of Parliament. They are not excluded from any honorary distinction, such as Knights of St. Patrick ? — No ; "not from titles of honour, they are not excluded ; the first titles in the nation are the right of and are enjoyed by Catholics. And they are excluded from no rank in the army ? — There is a clause in the annual Mutiny Act*, that dispenses with the putting of the oath of supremacy ; that has been called amongst us Mr. Croker's clause, a clause which allowed the superior offi- cers to admit an officer to take rank in the British army, without taking the oath of supremacy, and took away the penalty which the superior would otherwise have incurred, if he had omitted it ; the practical effect of that I take to be, that at this mo- ment the army is as open practically to the Catholic as to the Protestant, throughout all its ranks. Does that extend to the navy ? — My opinion is, that it does. Can Catholics be commanders in chief? — I speak now from a recollection of the clause, but the clause seemed to me to be universal. Are not Catholics obliged to take what is called the Qualifi- cation Oaths of 1773, in order to be able legally to buy or sell, or bequeath lands? — The penal code is, in my judgment, in full force against any Catholic who has not taken the oaths prescribed by the repealing statutes ; the mode in which the re- peal has been hitherto made, is not by repealing the statutes themselves, but by leaving them in full force, except as not applicable to persons who shall have taken the oaths ; the con- sequence is, the Catholic can enjoy no right unless he has taken the oaths ; and the grievance of a very serious nature, that, if * The Clause is not in tlie Mutiny Act, but an Act passed on purpose to opeti tjie Army and Navy to Catholics 250 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. there be not something further done, will affect Protestants deriving titles through Catholics, as well as Catholics, is just this, that if the evidence of having taken the oath be lost, the property is as discoverable at this moment, according to the Irish phrase discoverable, M^hich I before explained, as it was in the reign of George the First. Then, in point of fact, all the Acts of Anne and the subse- quent Acts, passed by the Irish Parliament, against Catholics, are still the law of the land ? — I would not venture to commit myself so far as that, but if any have been repealed they are extremely few ; some particular clauses as to schoolmasters, I think, have been directly repealed, but all the laws affecting landed property are in full force, and so late as the last term we had a question argued in the court of King's Bench, where a Protestant landlord brought an action of covenant against a Catholic tenant ; the defence set up by the Catholic tenant was, that he was not bound by his own covenant, inasmuch as he had never taken the Catholic oaths. What was the result of that action ? — The court did not pro- nounce judgment upon it ; I was concerned for the Protestant landlord, I argued it for him against the Catholic; it was argued by Mr. Perrin for the Catholic fraudulent tenant ; the court took time to consider for two or three terms, and in the mean time the parties compromised, and the question has not been decided ; I had arranged that the compromise should not be known to the court, but it broke out before the court gave its judgment. Can you illustrate the meaning of the word discoverable ? — What is called discoverable is this: by the statutes of Anne, the property then in the hands of Catholics was converted from its regular hereditary nature, into gavelkind, that is, a qualified gavelkind, not following the custom of Kent exactly, but a special gavelkind, giving all the sons an equal title to the estate as long as they continued Catholics ; and it took away from the father the power of making any limitation, or affect- ing the property with any charge whatsoever, save bona fide debts to Protestants: that was the effect of the law as to property then in the hands of the Catholics ; but the law went further, and prevented Catholics in future from acquiring any property, or taking by a purchase, or taking in any ways except by that gavel- kind descent, or taking any tenure beyond an occupation lease for thirty-one years ; so that if a Catholic took by marriage settle- ment, by will or by purchase, in its ordinary meaning, that is, buying or by lease, other than a thirty-one* years' lease, or if he had more profit upon a thirty-one years' lease than a third penny, as, for instance, if he paid twenty pounds, and the land became Avorth thirty-one pounds, in all those cases any DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 251 Protestant who chose to file a bill in a court of equity, merely statingthe title thus acquired by a Catholic, in general terms, and stating that the individual possessed of the interest was a Catholic, and that he himself was a Protestant, and that he, upon those premises, prayed, and was entitled to, the relief of having the interest or estate, or whatever it was, taken away from the Catholic, and vested by the decree of the court in him, the Protestant ; and the Act took away entirely the de- lays from the Court of Chancery and the Court of Exchequer, and compelled the immediate answer upon oath upon the first process, and took away any demurrer to such bill ; it did not allow the Catholic to demur, so that all technical forms were waved, and he was obliged to answer upon oath. Thus the Catholic, who was put out of all civil offices from his respect to an oath, was put upon his oath at once as to his pro- perty, and whether he was a Catholic or not. Do the Committee rightly understand it to be your opinion, that this is the law of Ireland still, in all cases in which the Catholic has not taken the Catholic oaths ? — I have no hesita- tion in saying, that it certainly is. The Bill was called a Bill of Discovery ; any land that could be the object of such a bill, was called in Ireland Discoverable land. Then any land held by a Protestant, if derived from a Catholic, is liable to a Bill of Discovery? — Before 1778, any land held by a Protestant, that was tainted in its progress to him, by having been for one moment in the hands of a Catholic, either as a trustee or otherwise, was discoverable in the hands of that Protestant; and instances were very frequent in which Pro- testants lost their estates and properties by Bills of discovery : one instance is upon record, in which a gentleman entered into Trinity College, Dublin, as a sizer, became a clergyman of the Established Church, lived for fifty years a clergyman of the Established Church, acquired an estate, and left it to his son, a Protestant ; and his son lost tliat estate by a bill of dis- covery, because the Father had entered Trinity College after fourteen, and never regularly conformed ; the father was born of Catholic parents, he was probably twenty when he went to Trinity College, Dublin, and entered as a sizer there. Having become a Protestant in the meantime ? — He could not have entered without being a Protestant. He was deemed to have been in law a Catholic, because he had not conformed before fourteen j'ears of age ? — He was, ac- cording to the legal phrase, plainly a Papist in point of law, because the son of every Papist was by law taken lyrima facie to be a Papist, unless under the age of fourteen he went pub- licly to church; he was a Papist for his life, unless he con- 252 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. formed; and it is right I should add, from my professional experience, there was scarcely one instance of regular con- formity in Ireland ; conformity that would bear the test, ex- cept in Dublin, What is regular conformity, according to law? — Regular conformity was taking certain oaths ; the oaths of supremacy, receiving the sacrament in church during divine service, filing a certificate in the superior courts of having taken the sacra- ment during divine service, and of having taken the oaths at sessions. The statutes were equivocal, if the certificates were filed in the superior courts ; there ought to be two of them ; that was sufficient. Now the first defeat that appears upon the conformities is this, that in general it was certified that the person received the sacrament after divine service, and not as the statute required it, during divine service ; that is a very common defect in the conformity. The next was, that it was required to file a certificate in the court of the sessions, of taking the sacrament ; and that the certificate of having taken the oaths was to be filed in the court above. The consequence was, that in the country the mode in which they proceeded was this ; they filed the certificate of having taken the sacra- ment accordingly in the court of sessions, and they took a cer- tificate from the court of sessions, of having filed that certifi- cate there, and of having taken the oaths, and they filed that certificate in the courts above. Now that was not considered sufiicient ; the certificate in the superior court was the only thing that, according to law, could be looked at, and that was only a certificate that somebody else certified, that the sacrament had been received. There were two certificates necessary ; one was a certificate of having taken the sacrament, the other was a certificate of having taken the oaths. If both those were filed in the superior courts, it was sufficient ; and therefore, when they conformed in Dublin, they put the clergyman's certificate in tiie court of King's Bench ; and they took a certificate from the court of King's Bench, that that certificate was there, that that person had taken the oaths ; and they filed that certificate in Chancery, where it should be filed. That was good conformity ? — That was good so far, because both Avere in the superior courts ; the Chancery certificate, and the taking the oaths in the court of King's Bench, was in a superior court ; the certificate of having taken the sacrament, was also in a superior court ; but I never saw a good certificate from the court of sessions below ; they always left one certifi- cate, that is of having taken the sacrament, in the sessions court below ; they only took to the superior court a certificate, that that certificate had been filed at sessions, and that the D.VNIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 253 oaths had been taken ; and that was held under the words of the statute not to be sufficient. How is the case with regard to landed property, purchased by Protestants from Catholics, since the year 1778? — In prac- tice it has not been looked to much ; very few Catholics have sold landed property ; they have been rather acquiring than selling ; but in practice no barrister could allow a Protestant client to purchase a property from a Catholic, without taking special care to see that a certificate of his having taken the oaths was enrolled in the court of Chancery. It would not be a good title without ? — I should not consider it so ; I would call it a bad title. Is the oath required to be taken, the oath of the Act of 1773?— There are the Acts of 1773, 1778, and 1793, that include oaths. Do they all relate to purchases of landed pi'operty ? — All those that are required are necessary, in order to give title to land. Does any practical difficulty arise in taking those oaths ac- cording to law ? — Some little delay, but no substantial diffi- culty in taking them ; the great defect at present is, that they may be taken at sessions, and the roll kept there ; there is no obligation to transmit that roll to Chancery ; and as the re- cords of the inferior courts in Ireland have been hitherto very badly kept, there is a danger of the loss of the evidence of having taken them. Can you mention to the Committee, any other disabilities, to which Catholics are liable, under the existing laws ? — I have not, upon my recollection at this moment, any other ; to the best of my recollection, I have gone throuoh the actual dis- abilities. An impression has gone abroad, particularly in Ireland, that the priests of parishes throughout Ireland, have got recoi'ds of the forfeited estates in Ireland ; will you state, whether that has come within your knowledge ? — I am thoroughly convinced, that there is not one single particle of truth in it ; that it is as unfounded as any thing can possibly be ; and having been ex- amined, as to the forfeited properties the last day, and having been asked, whether I had any myself, I would wish to add this, both m)^ brothers are in independent circumstances, wealthy for country gentlemen ; they are both younger than me ; all the property of each of them is forfeited property ; and I just closed a purcliase for my youngest brother, of an estate near the town of Threlin, a fee-simple estate, producing at present about 700/. a year, which was forfeited at the usurpation, by a Colonel Roger M'Eligot, and in that in- 254 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. tlXAMINEt). Stance we considered it a better title for having been forfeited ; and the way that I knew it was the forfeiture of a Colonel Roger M'Eligot, was, by it so appearing upon the patent and the official documents making part of the title. Are not Catholics prohibited, as Catholics, from having arms in their possession ? — There is a higher qualification re- quired for a Catholic to carry arms than a Protestant ; he must have 100/. a year in freehold estate, or a thousand pounds per- sonal fortune. Every Protestant may carry arms? — Every Protestant in Ireland may carry arms. He must also take the oaths ? — Certainly ; the entire penal code is enforced against any Catholic who has not taken the oaths ; there are recent Acts, requiring the registry of arms of Protestants as well as Catholics, but those are expressly tem- porary statutes ; and I do not speak of those temporary statutes applying to disturbed times ; but with the exception of those temporary statutes, the right of every Protestant to carry arms in Ireland is, in my opinion, unqualified. Do Catholics generally take those oaths, is it a matter of course for them to take them?— The Catholics are always per- fectly ready to take the oaths ; I never knew a Catholic refuse to take them. Are they all aware of the necessity of taking them ? — They are not all aware, by any means, of the necessity of taking them ; when it was necessary to take them before an election, so as to have a certificate of their having taken them at the election, all Catholics had taken them ; but when the law was relaxed, so as to enable them to be taken during the election, it became useless for the candidates to object that the certifi- cate of a Catholic was not ready to be produced, for the objection could only pospone the vote a few minutes ; the con- sequence is, that the candidates no longer object, they give up an objection that would be futile, and as, therefore, practi- cally, the certificate is not called for, the Catholics are begin- ning very much to neglect taking the oaths ; and in the next ge- neration, if some alteration is not made in the law, great con- fusion as to property will ensue. Are Catholics all obliged to take those oaths, to qualify for voting at elections ? — To this extent, that in point of law they have not a right to vote unless they have taken the oaths ; at present they need not have a certificate beforehand, for they may take them during the election if the objection be raised. I was two or three times assessor to the sherifts, and at that period there was not any difference on the subject of these oaths. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 255 In the event of a petition against the return, would the votes of all those persons who could not produce a certificate, be disallowed ? — In my opinion they ought to be ; however the question would arise thus, if the Catholic takes the oath at any time, it has under the statute of 1793, a retrospective effect, and a question would arise upon that objection to him, if he had taken it before his vote came before the committee, it would certainly be contended that that was sufficient, besides, it could not well come before the committee, unless an objec- tion were made at the election, and if it were made at the elec- tion it would have been obviated at once. Has not, in practice, the entry of the clerk of the peace been sufficient at the time of election ? — No ; the clerk of the peace was directed by the statutes to keep a roll, that roll would be sufficient, for it was from that the certificate was taken. Are you aware that by an English Act of the 31st of George III. Catholic places of worship and Catholic clergymen are protected from disturbances, during divine service? — Yes. Does the same privilege and protection exist in Ireland ? — No, it does not : there is no statute protecting Catholic places of worship or divine service in them, except the Whiteboy Acts, when a county is disturbed, and no county, unless dis- turbed, is within the purview of the Whiteboy Acts ; they are called into operation, and the felonies created by those statutes are constituted felonies by the fact of the county being dis- turbed ; whenever a place is so disturbed, then it is either a misdemeanour or a felony to disturb divine service in a Catholic place of worship, or to injure the building itself; they get, therefore, protection by statute only by the Whiteboy Acts, the Catholic clergymen having been frequently the object of those Whiteboy disturbances, as well as the owners of tithes. Is not the state of the law, with regard to intermarriages of Catholics and Protestants, veiy much complained of? — It is much complained of, and I have known it in practice attended with great mischief; it was not at all generally known, and is not even now universally known, that the marriage of a Pro- testant and a Catholic by a Catholic priest, is void ; recent circumstances, and the great circulation of matter through the press, have made it known ; but I have krtofrn one instance of a Protestant of ancient estate who married a Catholic lady ; the priest married them, they w^ere both quite ignorant that that was a void marriage ; they had three or four children ; he had not the estate at the time of the marriage, the estate de- scended upon him afterwards, and when he came to consult counsel upon some of the arrangements of the estate, he dis- covered that his three eldest children were bastards, and could 256 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. not inlierit, and then he went, after six or seven years cohabita- tion, to church and married the lady over again ; she continued a Catholic, and does still. What penalties are Catholic priests liable to, for marrying a Protestant and a Catholic ? — There are two penalties by the law ; the old statute makes it a capital felony, and the sta- tute of 1793 gives a penalty of 500/. so that if both those statutes co-exist, there is first a capital felony, for which he may be hanged, and then there is a pecuniary penalty of 500/. ; but my own humble judgment is, that the necessary effect of the latter statute is to repeal the former ; it repeals it by neces- sary implication. Have any instances of late occurred, in which priests have been prosecuted for marrying Catholics and Protestants? — Several ; a case occurred in the county of Galway, and there is a priest now from the county of Derry, a fugitive for having married a Catholic and a Presbyterian ; that is now depending. The consequences of a marriage of that kind being cele- brated, are to illegitimatize the issue? — Certainly. And to create a confusion with respect to property? — Yes. You feel it a very desirable thing, therefore, that the thing should be prevented ? — Certainly, that some arrangement should take place upon that subject. Do not you think it would be a very desirable thing, if the Roman Catholic bishops were, in their several dioceses, to issue a cautionary letter to their several priests, to request them to attend to the provisions of the law upon the subject? — I believe that that letter is unnecessary, because, in every case where a Catholic clergyman can abstain conscientiously from doing it, he is directed so to abstain ; but there are cases In which he would feel it his duty, from motives of conscience, to marry persons particularly circumstanced, as where family peace and concord would be interrupted, and cases where one can easily conceive it may be necessary for the prevention of immorality, and preventing the continuance of immorality. Could not that be equally effected by the ceremony first being performed by a Protestant clergyman ? — It could ; but there are cases where that cannot be arrived at so easily. You mean, there are some cases of extreme urgency, that would not wait for the performance of the ceremony by a Pro- testant clergyman ? — Yes, or there would be reasons for pre- venting it. Again, the Catholic clergyman is equally guilty in point of law, whether he knows that the party is a Pro- testant or not. There was a case tried at Galway, where the parties repi-esented to the priest, that they wei-e Catholics, and he incurred a capital felony, if the capital felony still DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ., EXAMINED. 257 exists, by marrying persons who he was convinced were Ca- tholics. Was not there a case of that sort that occurred in the county of Roscommon ? — There was. Was not that case one in which the party who was mar- ried represented himself to be a Catholic, and afterwards turn- ing out to be a Protestant, he went and instituted an action against the priest, jand recovered penalties? — Yes, 500/. Do you recollect the name ? — I do not recollect the name of the case. It occurred last summer ? — Within the last eighteen months. The facilities of marriage in Ireland are great ; and my own opinion is, that they ought to be so ; that immorality is pro- duced by their not being so, and no other result ; and I do not myself think there would be the least inconvenience in making the celebration of marriage more public, and allowing the clergymen of the various classes of Dissenters and Catholics to marry, where either of the parties was of the communion of the person celebrating the marriage. Are there not a class of priests that go by the name of Fa- ther Tack'ems ? — There are individuals in that class, that have been silenced by their bishops, deprived of their livings for misconduct, who have supported themselves afterwards by celebrating such marriages ; but, as I remember, there is a statute making that species of celebration a transportable felony in the priest, although it does not render the marriage invalid, making it penal in him to follow that trade. No Catholic clergyman, who is not under censure of his bishop, has ever acquired that appellation, or has, I believe, deserved it. What is the state of the law, with regard to Catholics attending vestries ? — At present Catholics cannot attend vestries whenever any question arises respecting the building or repair- ing of churches ; they are excluded by a statute passed in the reign of either George the First or George the Second, from such vestries ; and sums to an extremely large amount are levied upon the property of Catholics, for it is the occupier that pays the parish cess, by very small vestries of Protestants, in con- sequence of that statute. If the Catholic conforms to the Protestant religion, and then relapses to the Catholic, in what situation is he under, by the laws of Ireland? — I should speak with great diffidence upon that subject, because, whatever opinion I formed upon it was not, I believe, consistent with an extremely high authority in the law ; but my opinion is, that if, after a relapse to Poperv, the person takes the Catholic oaths at the sessions, there is no question made as to the relapse, and he is precisely in the same s 258' DAKIKI. O'CONNELL, ESQ. EX.\MINED. situation as if lie had been a Protestant. There is, however, a difference of opinion among the highest men in the profession, upon the subject. Mr. Saurin is of the opinion I am, but I understand there were doubts entertained upon the subject at one time, by most respectable authority. Has any case been decided to settle the point ? — The point has not been settled ; but I ventured to advise a gentleman of considerable fortune so to qualify ; and one gentleman in par- ticular, who left a property to the amount of 4000/. a year, did so ; and although he disinherited his eldest son, his will has not been questioned. Was the case in which that doubt arose, a case respecting the capacity of the person to make a will ? — It was. Does not that rest somewhat on a different foundation. You are aware that some persons ai'e of opinion, that the disabilities under the old statutes attach not upon the making of a will, but on the taking under it ; and therefore, that although a person were in the situation of being considered as having re- lapsed to Popery, still that would not disable him from making a will ? — The doubt, I understood, arose in the mind of the person to "whom I alluded, particularly upon the statute of 1782. The persons who took in the case, who were the youngest sons, were Protestants ; the eldest son was a Catholic ; although the father returned from the Protestant religion to the Catholic, he disinherited his Catholic son. What is the law respecting the conversion of a Catholic priest to Protestantism? — The law has been totally altered upon that subject lately ; till very recently, whenever a Ca- tholic Priest was converted to Protestantism, he had a provi- sion upon the county for 40/. a year, that is taken away ; he also was a recognised minister of the Established Church by the very act of conversion : his orders are still recognised, but there has been a recent statute, preventing him from officiating without either a license or some immediate authority from the ordinary of the diocese. Is that power in grand juries rescinded ? — To my recollec- tion it is. Are you aware what statute it is? — It is within the last three or four years. He is disabled, as all persons in the Protestant Church are disabled, from officiating in any particular diocese without the authority of the ordinary ; but are you aware of any particular statute which disabled him in any other way? — I can venture to say, there was a particular statute, and I shall be able to- morrow, with the index, to point it out. If Roman Catholics were admitted to the right of voting in DANIEL O'COXNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 259 vestries, do not you think it would be veiT difficult to pass any question for the building or repairing of churches in Ireland? — I do not think any fair case would be resisted; of course, upon this subject, it is a speculation, but, as far as I have seen, my own conviction is, that no fair case would be resisted ; indeed, I am deeply convinced that a fair case would not. In discussions respecting Roman Catholic hardships, it is not stated as the greatest hardship of all, that the Roman Ca- tholic is called upon to contribute to Protestant churches ? — The greatest hardship is, that he is called upon to build and repair churches, whei'e that building is totally unnecessary, as it is in a great number of instances in the south ; in the county of Kerry, for example, I know parishes where churches have been built for a single individual or two. I know many in- stances, and that there is one going on at this moment, in the parish of Jaghadoe, in the county of Kildare ; there is but a single Protestant in the parish, a Mr. Grierson ; they are building a church there, that I understand will cost about 1,000/. the Catholics offered to build a dwelling-house for Mr. Grierson. Is it not the fact that Protestants have disappeared from many parishes, in consequence of their not having a place of worship to go to of their own ? — I am not at all aware that that is the cause ; that the Protestants have disappeared from very many parishes is certainly the fact ; they have melted into the mass of the Catholic population by marriages ; and in some respect perhaps by the great readiness to attend the sick in contagious diseases, of the Catholic clergymen, who have not families and have no apprehension of bringing to their own fannlies contagious disease ; a Protestant parson may risk his own person very well, but if he catches a contagious disease his wife and children will be likely to get it from him, and that must operate upon the minds of the very best men ; it is not so with the Catholic clergyman, he has nothing to risk but himself, and he goes amongst the persons in contagious dis- eases, particularly the lower orders. Have you not understood that wherever churches have been built a congregation has appeared ? — A small congregation I apprehend always appeared wherever there was a church built, and for this distinct reason, that there were several offices always chargeable upon the parish, annexed to the church ; as for example, parish clerk, sexton, bell-ringers and sweeper of the pews, frequently a sextoness ; those offices make a small congregation ; but I have seen that when the persons who filled those offices got seriously ill and were near dying, they almost S 2 260 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. ■universally, indeed I believe universally, sent for tKe priest and died Catholics ; I have known several instances of that. Do not you conceive the necessary consequence of not having a place of worship for one particular class of Christians, is to drive them to avail themselves of another form of Christian faith? — Cei'tainly; wherever there are Protestants my opinion is there certainly ought to be a place of worship for them as convenient as possible. Are there any legal restraints upon Catholics with respect to acting as Guardians? — They cannot be guardians, as I recollect, of Protestant children, they must take the oaths before they can be guardians of their own children, or any other children; but taking the oaths is never considered a hardship, except from the nature of the oaths themselves ; for example, we are obliged to swear that we do not believe it lawful to murder any person for or under pretence of his being a heretic ; now I never took that oath yet, that I did not feel excessively degraded at being obliged to swear such a thing, as that it is so cruel to impute to any body so horrible a thing as to believe that doctrine. Those oaths are long oaths, are they not ? — The oaths are very long. Are there any other obnoxious abjurations contained in them? — I do not recollect at present any thing else that is ob- noxious ; there is a great deal of matter besides that, which is perfectly unnecessary, but from the state of calumny upon the Catholics in general, we are not sorry to disclaim those tenets in the most unequivocal and distinct way. Are they not considered by Catholics as casting calumny up- on them ? — They are considered as perpetuating the recollection of calumnies, for the necessity of refuting a calumny always presupposes its existence; and when you ask a person to refute it, you give it a kind of credit in the first instance, so that it would be supposed, if it was not refuted it would be believed. Will you be so good as to state to the Committee, what the effect of the law has been with respect to yourself, as to your own practice in the courts? — I feel it an excessive grievance that I cannot be King's counsel; from my general political prin- ciples, my own opinions being strong upon the subject of Par- liamentary Reform, I should not be likely to get any office other than that of King's counsel, which is not considered a marked political favour; but not being King's counsel is certainly a very gi-eat pecuniary loss to me, and it leaves me still, in the twenty- seventh year of my professional exertions, obliged to work in all the minor branches of my profession at the same time that I am working in the superior ones; I believe in the presence of the Attorney General for Ireland, I may say that I do as much DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 261 business as any man at the Irish bar ; my professional receipts last year were upwards of 6,000/. without of course any portion of it coming from government, or any source but the ordinary practice of my profession. It would be an amazing conveni- ence to me, and I think it would increase my emoluments, by increasing the fees, and would diminish my trouble very con- siderably to be King's counsel. Have you not known that several gentlemen differing politi- cally from the government, are King's counsel? — I have known great fairness in that respect, and I may be mistaken ; but I should certainly expect from the noble lord at the head of the law in Ireland, that my political opinions would not prevent me from being made King's counsel by him or any portion of the Irish government, if I was competent to be so. Does not it also operate as a great inconvenience to other gen- tlemen, that when persons are desirous of having the advantage of your leading for them, they are obliged to decline the ser- vices of other gentlemen.^ — I will say distinctly, that I know that a number of Protestant gentlemen are suffering very consider- ably in their profession, by my not being King's counsel. I know instances every term, in which the agents come to me, and although my wish, in point of delicacy, is totally to decline the nomination of other counsel, when I suggest a name, sometimes they say " He is your senior, I would be very happy to have him as counsel, but -neither 1 nor my client will put any man over your head." I know that several Protestant gentlemen suffer very considerably by my not being King's counsel. Have any gentlemen M^ho are junior to you been appointed King's counsel? — Very many; the greater part of the prac- tising King's counsel are my juniors, and two of the judges; it is right to make a junior to me King's counsel of course, but I do not know of any junior, who had as much business as my- self, who is put over my head; Mr. Blackburne is my junior, certainly high in the profession, but that could never create a jealousy in my mind, he is one of the best lawyers in the pro- fession. Do you know any instances of the interference of Protestant clergymen at the last Dublin election? — I know of one parti- cular interference ; the original autograph of the following letter was in my possession, written by Dean Langrishe, to a person of the name of Bartholomew Senior, during the late contested election for the county of Dublin; the original was in these words, " Senior, as you are a staunch Protestant and an honest man, I suppose you can have no difficulty in voting for Sir Compton Domville. Do not by any means fail in attending at the hustings, and be as early as possible. I believe your sou hab 362 DANIEL O CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. got a vote also; pray fetch him with you. J. H. Langrishe.'^ That Senior I understand holds some office connected with the church. With regard to the population of the county of Kerry ; which barony of the county do you conceive to contain the greatest number of Protestants? — I should suppose Trughanamy, in which the town of Tralee is situated. Is there not a kind of Protestant colony in the town of Tar- bert? — I believe not; there were some Protestants brought in from the county of Limerick, by Mr. Leslie for his yeomanry corps, and they constituted for some time an Orange lodge there, as it was said, but the far greater part of the population of Tai'bert, is Catholic, as in the other towns; that is, the great majority of them must be Catholic. The corps of yeomanry which is at Tarbert, is considered to be a Pi'otestant corps? — It is considered as an Orange corps; there are some Protestants in it, but besides those, the others mostly are Orangemen ; there are some few Catholics I under- stand. How has the tranquillity of that part of Kerry been, as com- pared with other parts? — That has been the most disturbed part of the county ; and the parts of the county where there are most Catholics, have been the most tranquil; the barony of Iveragh, one may say, is almost exclusively Catholic; within my recollection, on two occasions, when disturbances occurred there, upon the first of those occasions I had to come to the county, and in five days I put it down completely, and had two or thi'ee of the leaders in it transported. Upon the second oc- casion, my youngest brother who is an extremely active magis- trate, in the county of Kerry, had more trouble, because the last disturbance was much more extensive, in putting it down ; it took him three weeks, but he put it down completely, with- out the assistance of a single soldier. Are you at all aware whether there has been any distinction proved to exist in courts of justice, between the Whiteboy oath taken in the neighbourhood of Tarbert, where that corps of yeomanry existed and the Whiteboy oath taken in other parts of the county.^ — My conception is, that there was in the neigh- bourhood of Tarbert, something against Orangemen in the oath, of an exterminatory nature, which certainly was not taken in the other parts of the country, as appeared in the evidence; the reaction of one party always creates additional virulence in all those unfortunate disturbances. How did that appear? — I understood at the trials at the assizes at Tralee, it so appeared. What was the state of the county of Kerrv during the re- DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 263 bellion of 1798? — I recollect it well; it was perfectly tranquil every where but at Curtleriland; there was not within thirty- miles of the residence of my father or uncle, a single soldier or a single yeoman, except my brother who belonged to the Ken- more yeomanry cavalry, that was distant twenty-four miles from it. Were there not at that time certain individuals in the county of Kerry, who were considered to partake of the revolutionary principles of those times? — There were. Were those persons of the superior ranks of life? — They w'ere. What was their religious faith ? — They were the sons of ma- fistrates and grand jurors, some of them ; and they were all 'rotestants. Were there not at that timea great number of Protestant gen- tlemen considered as united Irishmen, though the fact was, that they were not at all connected with the society? — Not immedi- diately in 1798, but in 1799 they were; as the Orange system grew strong, it became the habit to consider every Protestant of liberal opinions as an united Irishman, and to brand him as such ; and the newspapers did so. Have you had any means of ascertaining the effect produced upon the temper and disposition of the people, by the Insurrec- tion Act? — I think the temper produced by the Insurrection Act, is likely to be very unfavourable in the case of future dis- turbances, the opinion created by the facility of transporting persons leaving a very deep impression of injustice about it ; and if there shall be disturbances hereafter, my own apprehen- sion is, that that they will be still more sanguinary in conse- quence of that. Do you think it tends to augment and to continue any sort of indisposition existing in the minds of the people to the adminis- tration of the law? — I am sure it does; it tends to pepetuate the notion, that law and government in Ireland is a matter of mere brutal force ; that it is the compression of power, and not the administration of right. It creates that idea very much; and when I say this, I am not at all saying that there was not a necessity in particular districts, for taking very violent mea- sures, for certainly ati'ocious crimes had been committed in particular districts. Do you conceive that the same feeling is entertained by the people, towards a decision of the Court of Insurrection Ses- sions, that is felt towards a decision of the ordinary courts of law at assizes, through a jury ? — Most certainly not ; there is not the acquiescence at all ; to a certain extent, wherever there is a jury, there is an acquiescence in the decision, however Against them; but the notion of the courts under the Insurrec- 264 DANIEL O CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. tion Act, is totally abhorrent form any idea of law. It is the sendmg away a man because they choose: the magistrates are not sworn to do justice in the particular case ; a magistrate comes in, and takes a jaartisan share in the transaction ; he comes on the table as a witness, and whether he mixes with the magistrates again, I cannot say; though I presume, from the character of part of the gentlemen wlio were appointed as King's counsel, that he is not allowed to vote after he has been a witness, aud yet I cannot say that he is not. In your experience on the Munster circuit, have you known any instance in Avhich juries have been either seduced or intimidated from the discharge of their duty, in administering the ordinary laws? — I have been counsel for more Whiteboys than perhaps any other individual ever was in Ireland, and I never knew one single instance of an acquittal that I could trace to any intimida- tion or seduction ; I mean even in my own mind. Have you known any instances, in which jurors have declined attending at the assizes, in consequence of intimidation, or any other indirect motive?— I have never known it; I think I heard, at one time, of something of the kind prevailing in the county of Limerick, some apprehension of that kind ; T heard of it only once, and I never knew it; and in Munster, I do not believe it occurred at all. In the Munster circuit, with which you are acquainted, have you known any distinctions to exist in the formation of juries, by reason of the religious faith of the persons summoned ?— Yes, J have; I have known it prevail in the county of Cork; it is not attributable at all to the gentlemen of the bar, who con- duct the prosecutions there either, under the late Attorney Ge- neral ; and if there was a degree of comparison, it would be less under the present; but under the late Attorney General, the gentlemen of the bar did not countenance it at all ; and the Crown solicitor for that circuit, would not countenance it either; but the police magistrates interfere, that is the magis- trates appointed by government ; and I have seen the magis- trates for the county of Cork, I mean as well the police ma- gistrates, as other magistrates in that county, attending parti- cular prosecutions, setting aside the Catholic jurors, and endea- vouring to pick out, as much as possible, a Protestant jury, some of them Orangemen. That is rather when the cause comes on for trial ? — Entirely. It is not, in influencing the return of the panel? — No; the return of the panel in the county of Cork, includes a great number of names; several hundred, as it ought to do; and therefore, by means of the right of the Crown to set it aside, the prosecutor in every case, can, in fact, choose his own jury. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 265 In the county you have alluded to, that right has been exer- cised in setting aside Catholic jurors? — It was exercised till I complained of it. I have endeavoured to avoid the criminal court as much as I could ; but as soon as I complained of it, Mr. Sei'jeant Goold, who conducts the criminal prosecutions there, and who is as liberal a gentleman as can possibly exist, and an extremely able man, instantly discountenanced it, and prevented it as much as he possibly could ; the Crown solicitor also concurred in preventing it. Are you acquainted with the mode, in which the police, in your county of Kerry, have been appointed? — The magistrates in my county, kept to themselves the nomination of the police, they nominated all the police, and there never has been the least complaint of any outrage upon the people, being com- mitted by a police man in my county ; in point of discipline and appearance they are to the full equal to any other police, and in their efficiency they cannot be exceeded : they do their duty without giving offence to any person ; they certainly would not lightly fire at any crowd of individuals in the county, for any man who fired, could not know but it would be his own brother or father he may shoot. Do you know whether the majority of the police of the county of Kerry are Catholic, or Protestant ? — I believe a very decided majority are Catholics. Do you think it advisable, in selecting and appointing police men, to take men from the immediate neighbourhood ? — From the county, I should think it decidedly advisable, whenever the magistracy was of a certain character. The county of Kerry I take to be particularly well circumstanced, with respect to a great number of its magistrates ; it has excellent Protestant, and I may venture to say excellent Catholic magistrates. Would it not be likely to lead to the exercise of prejudice in some cases, and of favour in others? — Yes, it would certainly ; but the situation of a police man is an extremely valuable one to the Irish peasant ; it is quite an establishment to him, and he would not lightly forfeit it; and if he committed any kind of offence, it would be known who did it immediately ; he would be under the eye of his OM^n neighbours, and he would not be likely to escape as a stranger would. There is a kind of domestic watching over him, if he be appointed in his own county ; my own opinion, in the abstract would be, that it would be highly advisable that the magistrates should appoint in each particular county ; and I know in Kerry, where the experiment has been made, the result is undoubtedly such as one would wish. Individual police men have frequently very great power in 266 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESft. EXAMINED. their dispersion over the county, in ones and twos? — They have. Without vigilant inspection, would not those powers be sub- ject to very great abuse ? — ^Certainly ; but I think those much more likely to be abused by strangers than by natives. In the county of Kerry, where the magistrates appointed from the inhabitants of the county their own police men, still a power is vested in and exercised by the government officer to remove those police men, if he shall think fit, to any part of the county ? — Yes, I understand that that power is vested in him; it is a power that one would say certainly ought to be in him. Then, in the event of any favour being exercised, arising from local connexion, do not you think that that power of change of quarters is sufficient to correct it ? — It certainly would tend very much to correct any local evil ; but my opinion is, that the evil would be greater in bringing in strangers. Do you know whether the clergy of the Roman Catholic church, in the parts of Munster with which you are acquainted have made any exertions in maintaining the peace of the county? —Great and constant ; the clergy of the Catholic church in Kerry are unremitting in their exertions, whenever occasion re- quires to preserve the peace. Are any particular instances present to your recollection, in which their exertions have been of service ? — In all cases where disturbances broke out I knew the Catholic clergy to take the most zealous and active measures in their power, to quell the disturbances. Have those exertions ever been at personal risk to themselves, or attended with fatal consequences to themselves? — At per- sonal risk, certainly ; I do not recollect any case of fatal con- sequence in Munster ; except that in the county of Limerick, there M^as a Catholic priest shot by them, upon his interfering to prevent outrage or felony, he was shot by Whiteboys or felons. That was the case of Mr. Mulquiny ? — Yes; it also happened on the day that the man was murdered between Tralee and Kil- larney, in January 1822, his name was Brereton ; at that period a Mr. O'Donnel at Milstrut was taken by the insurgents, who turned out upon that occasion in open rebellion, and was ac- tually upon his knees, to be shot, when the priest fortunately arrived, threw himself between Mr. O'Donnel and the persons who were going to shoot him, and remained in that position with the utmost peril of himself ; they repeatedly declared that they would shoot him if he did not come from between them ; he protected at his own personal risk, Mr. O'Donnel, who DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 267 would certainly have been murdered if the priest had not done that. You have a good opportunity of knowing the opinions of the Roman Catholic gentry in Ireland, with respect to the Protes- tant establishment in the country; have you any notion that the Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland wish to have the Protestant hierarchy transferred to their own priesthood ? — I am quite convinced that the Catholic gentry in Ireland would oppose as strongly as it would be possible for them to do, any transfer of the property of the Established church from that church to their own ; I am quite convinced they v/ould oppose it. I am sure, for one individual, I should concur in that opposition most heartily. Can you form any opinion, whether ttie Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland would be disinclined to accept of a provision from the state, if in doing so they were freed from all impu- tation of making a separate cause from that of the laity ? — I am convinced they would not accept it at all till the Catholics were emancipated, because, until that event, they could not be freed from the imputation of trafficking for their own advantage ; but I am sure that if an equalization of civil rights took place, they would accept of it, and that the Catholic gentry would concur with them, in a desire that they should, the object being to connect the Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland with the government itself, to embody them as it were as a portion of the state, and to give the government w^hat we would desire, a reasonable and fair influence over the Catholic clergy, so that there should not be even an idea of any dano;er of their being: taken away to favour a foreign enemy, or to favour domestic insurrection ; I am sure that is the opinion of the clergy, and 1 know it is the opinion of the Catholic gentry. Do you think such an arrangement can in any manner have the effect of alienating the flocks from the clergy, if so paid ? — If made upon an Emancipation Bill heartily entered into, in a proper spirit ; and I would beg leave to say, it would be better to leave things as they are than to have an Emancipation Bill that was not in a proper spirit both for the Catholics and Pro- testants, for it would be giving us additional power, and leaving still a stimulant to those animosities that divide the country ; and I think the thing should remain as it is, unless it be done heartily and cordially ; if it be done so, I have not the least doubt that it would not at all interfere between the jiriests and their flocks, or take away the influence from them ; there is more of intellect about an Irish peasant tlian they frequently get credit for. Have you any reason to apprehend whether there is any tendency on the part of any foreign country to intijrfere \vith 268 DANIEL O' CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. the education of persons for the Irish priesthood ? — Yes, there is ; I believe that there is in France a very great tendency to that effect at present ; there is great encouragement now giving to the education of Irish priests in France ; there are consider- able funds, that in worse times were transferred by Catholic families to France for the -education of the priesthood ; my own family were among the principal contributors ; we have a large property comparatively remaining, our admitted right, in the French university ; we have now either four or five young men educating there, but we have not one educating for the priest- hood. This was a great many years ago ? — These foundations were established sixty or eighty years ago, when no priest could pos- sibly be educated in Ireland. It would have been extremely desirable, if at the peace it had been managed to get those funds restored to this country. Have you reason to think that at present the French govern- ment are active with respect to those funds ? — Persons acting under the French government certainly are ; and I have a strong apprehension that that will increase very much if there is a temptation left to its increase, by leaving matters as they stand at present in Ireland. Do you not believe that the Roman Catholics of Ireland, both clergy and laity, would be very willing to afford to the government of the country reasonable security for the domestic education of their priesthood, and that their should not be persons appointed from the establishments abroad ? — I am quite convinced of it ; I beg to say, that I am thoroughly con- vinced that the object of the Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland is sincerely and honestly to concur with the government, in every measure that shall increase the strength of the govern- ment in Ireland so as to consolidate Ireland with England completely, and in every beneficial aspect ; I am quite convinced of that. And in that particular instance ? — In that instance com- pletely ; they would very heartily concur, that no person should be nominated to any situation in the Catholic church of Ireland who was not substantially educated, as well as born in allegiance, and in Ireland. Do you not think that some measure of that kind Avould be calculated to give great additional security to the country against foreign interference, in all domestic concerns ? — I am convinced it would ; my conviction is, that there is great danger in allowing matters to remain as they are. Perhaps my private interests influence, to a certain degree, that conviction, without my perceiving it ; I do not perceive it, if my interests do ; but DANIEL O'CONNELL ESQ. EXAMINED. 269 I am conscientiously convinced there is great future peril in leaving the increase of foreign education of our priesthood in the way it is likely to be. Have you observed any difference in the loyalty of priests vvho have been educated abroad, and those who have been edu- cated in Ireland ? — No ; with this exception, the priests who were educated in France were old, I may say, when I became a man ; and they had a natural abhorrence of the French revo- lution, which bore so much upon the Catholic clergy. They were very strong an ti -jacobins, if I may use the expression ; by that means there was among them a great deal of what is called ulti-a-royalism ; but with the priests educated at Maynooth, the anti-jacobin feeling is gone by, and they are more identified with the people ; and therefore in the phrase that is usually called Loyalty, they do not come within the description of it so much as the jDrlests educated in France, for that reason ; but then, in the time of my father and uncle, the priests edu- cated in France were Jacobites. They M'ere enemies to a cer- tain extent ; while they submitted to the laws, their own opinions ran against the succession of the present family on the throne ; and the}' were perhaps dangerous before the French revolution in that respect. Have not considerable funds lately been applied in Ireland to the establishment of seminaries, for educating and supplying persons to do the duties of priests ? — The only funds that I know of, to any amount, are those which the Jesuits have applied for the purpose of establishing colleges there for education in Ireland. I allude particularly to that at Clongowes, and its branches. Are you aware of any other Jesuit establishments that are now founded? — Only tliose connected with Clongowes; boys ought to be eleven or twelve to go to Clongowes ; I did not send my own sons there till that age. There is a juvenile establishment or two for young children, connected with Clon- gowes; I do not know of any other. There was a purchase of a great part of a parish in the county of Tipperary, a short time ago ; it was bought by a Mr. Rice, who is the great founder of the monks' school in Ireland ; but he bought it I know for an individual gentleman, and not for any establishment. In this establishment do they educate for the priesthood espe- cially, or educate generally ? — Educate generally ; my eldest son, who is keeping terms, was educated at Clongowes, before he entered Trinity college ; and so my second son, till he de- clined the literary pursuit ; and my third son, whom I at pre- sent Intend for the profession of the bar, is at Clongowes at this moment ; mv fourth son I mean to send as soon as he is fit. 270 DANIEL o'roNNEl.L, ESQ. EXAMINED. It is only a preparatory education? — It is general education ; no person can be admitted to the priesthood from Clongowes, it has not become a regular Jesuit establishment ; they are Jesuits, therefore, but as to the priesthood, a man must first go through a novitiate and become a Jesuit, and then be priested as a Jesuit, but the students at Clongowes have no connexion at all with the priesthood, other than that they may become priests, but in itself they have no connexion. You stated, that you thought there would be no objection, on the part of the Roman Catholic priesthood, to have the appointments of the Roman Catholic clergy confined to persons born and educated in Ireland ? — That is my opinion. Would there be any objection to the interference of the Crown in prohibiting the appointment of particular individuals, or in controlling them ? — At present there would be so much that it would totally spoil the effect of any measure of emanci- pation, and I would respectfully, in that case, submit that it would be better, perhaps, to leave things as they are than meddle with that just now ; if hereafter, in practice, it was found that any real and substantial inconvenience occurred from the present arrangement, T am quite sure the government would find great facilities after the emancipation, both at Rome and in Ireland, in making a proper and satisfactory arrangement on that subject ; I know much and intimately the opinions of the most influential of the Catholic clergy in Ireland, if they have a political fault it is a leaning to government, and a wish to identify themselves with the government ; and it is pei'haps right I should add, that there is no class of men more strongly inclined that way than the leading men of that very college of the Jesuits, very clever men, and highly cultivated. You stated, that you did not conceive the Roman Catholic gentry would at all concur in the plan for transferring to the Roman Catholic clergy the possessions of the Protestant church? — I do. Do you think the Roman Catholic gentry would feel any objection to a diminution of the property of the Protestant church, which was not connected with a transfer to their own church ? — None at all ; they would be very desirous of a dimi- nution of tithes. Would the Protestant gentry be equally so ? — I think there would be great unanimity upon that subject, from Armagh to Kerry. You conceive, then, that the Roman Catholic does not pay tithe more unwillingly than the Protestant ? — In pi'actice I have known the Protestant more outrageous in paying it than the Catholic. DANIEL O'CONNF.LL ESQ. EXAMINED. 271 Have not you heard it stated, as a special ground of corn- plaint, that the Roman Catholic peasant should pay to maintain the clergy of a different persuasion ? — I have, but I do not think I ever heard it complained of, except in the cases which are so general in the south, of there being no Protestant, or scarcely any, except the clergyman who receives the tithes ; but I never heard, where there was a fair proportion of Pro- testants ; I do not think I have, I may, but I do not recol- lect it. Do they consider it a greater hardship to pay to clergymen than to lay impropriators ? — I cannot say that they do ; I re- collect, now, instances where they considered it still a greater grievance to pay to a lay impropriator ; but in some of the m- stances the lay impropriator has been more moderate than the proctor or lessee of the clergyman, in others the lay impro- priator has been the strictest of all ; in lay impropriations, in two or three instances, they have considered it as quite ridiculous to be paying tithes, where there is not the pretence of religion at all connected with it. Which do you think is the feeling which operates the most, an objection to pay where religion is not concerned, or an ob- jection to pay where a different religion is concerned ? — I do not think it makes any great diffei-ence ; I am sure they would have great objection to pay their own clergy, tithes, and cattle, and fight as hard as they do, either with the layman or the parson in questions of property ; abstract points of faith do not enter much. Are the Committee to understand, that you take a clear dis- tinction between the Roman Catholics being willing that the government should interfei'e, by nominating, or by any thing equivalent to it, and their affording a perfect security that there should be no foreign interference ? — The greatest and most marked distinction, the interference of the government, in point of nomination, would prevent any kind of harmony ; in the act of emancipation, it would take away all influence from such persons as have had influence among the Catholic people ; I know some of them, they would wish to make the union cordial and complete ; it would deprive us of the power of doing that, the apprehension upon that subject is very great ; and besides, it could not be done without a reference to the tribunal at Rome, without some assent from Rome ; it would, therefore, be a postponement ; but in itself, even if the clergy acceded to it, the general turn of mind of the laity is such, that it would spoil the effect of emancipation, and create, perhaps, a worse feeling than exists even at this moment. You do not apprehend any of these consequences from a per- 272 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. feet security being given for domestic nomination? — I do not apprehend any of those consequences ; I think we should all concur in that. With respect to domestic nomination, there are two things included in it ; one is, that the persons appointed should be persons born and educated at home ; the next is, that although the Pope has the patronage of your church, yet that the origi- nation of the appointments should be domestic ; how far do your ideas concur with these ? — Entirely concur with my own wishes for both. I wish for both extremely. As to the first, namely, being born and educated at home, I am quite convinced, that that could be easily and immediately done. As to the other, the taking away from the Pope all possible right of ori- ginating a nomination, perhaps some difficulty may arise ; at least means should be taken, and something in the nature of a concordat, which I believe would be most easily managed, may be necessary for that purpose. I do not say it will, because it is only to a certain extent that my knowledge goes upon this subject. In point of fact, does the Pope at present exercise any such power of original nomination ? — Yes ; he has nominated several, it is understood, at the instance of the British government. But otherwise, is it a thing acceptable to the Roman Catholic clergy, that he should interfere in the original nomination ? — Ire- land is considered, in the Catholic church, as in an anomalous state. We have preserved the liierarchy complete, and yet it is a missionary country ; and the amount of being a missionary country is, that the appointment of ecclesiastics belongs to the congregation De propaganda fide, and in that way there is, as far as I understand it, a greater dominion over the nomination given to the Pope, and belonging to him, than if it were not a missionary country. My notion is, and I believe I may speak with some confidence, that it would be very easy for the British government to have it cease to be a missionary country ; and that, in fact, it would cease to be a missionary country the mo- ment the Catholics were put upon an equal footing with other British subjects; at this moment, the original rights which remain are national rights, and those national rights would be under the control of government, so far as they do not inter- fere with religion itself. 1 think, therefore, that that arrange- ment may be made ; that there is a part of it that could be made at once, but that the other would require some detail. Do you happen to know that any country is considered other- wise than as a missionary country, unless the Roman Catholic religion is established in it? — If by that is meant established by being connected with the state, I do not know it ; but having, DANIEL o'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 273 from unfortunate circumstances, more knowledge upon these points than laymen generally have, I conceive, that if what I call an Emancipation Bill passed, at that moment the right which the Pope has upon a missionary country would totally cease ; there would not be the least pretext for continuing it, and I believe all the Catholic clergy in Ireland would be anxious for that. Do you happen to know whether the kingdom of the Nether- lands is considered as a missionary country ? — I am convinced it is not. Prussia ? — Prussia was till lately. You have alluded to the necessity of some concordat being' arranged with the see of Rome ? — Merely to arrange the origi- nal right of nomination from the Pope himself. Do you think that such an arrangement with the see of Rome would more easily be eifected after the measure of Roman Catholic emancipation had passed, than it would before it? — Most certainly after. I take it that government would not find the least difficulty in making that arrangement after emanci- pation : the present state of Ireland brings the Catholics into a kind of a corjDorate capacity : they act as a body by reason of the compression ; if emancipation took place, there would be a total end to that, and we would mix in all the grades of society without distinction ; and as there certainly is a most unaflfected desire on our parts to become king's subjects, I do not think the government would have the least difficulty in being satisfied upon these points after emancipation. In other countries, where concordats have been made by tlie Pope, have they not been contemporaneous with the settlement of other branches of the question? — I believe not; I think, in general, in other states the civil rights were first conceded ; I may be mistaken upon this, but whatever the precedents may be in that way, and however valuable we lawyers may consider precedents, I am sure I know enough of the Irish Catholics, to know that there would be great difficulties thrown in the way before emancipation, and I will venture to pledge myself, that thei-e would be none at all afterwards. Do you think there would be any difficulty on the part of the court of Rome ? — In the court of Rome I believe you Avould. find great facility, because you would find from the Catholic clergy themselves great facilities ; and the two Roman Catholic archbishops that would be nearest to government, are both gen- tlemen who are disposed to facilitate any thing that is deemed wise by the government of the country, if it could be done without interfering with what they consider their duty. I was asked a question respecting the state of things in the Nether-. T 274 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. lands ; I believe there are several unsettled points in the Netherlands. When a Catholic see is vacant, in what manner is that at present filled up I — In some of the sees there has been a rude continuation of the deans and chapters ; those are now asserting their rights to originate the nomination ; and in every instance that they have asserted it, I believe it has been allowed at Rome. Where there are not deans and chapters, an election by parish priests has been very much the recent practice ; and wherever they have elected, if the neighbouring bishops concur, that nomination has been received at Rome, and confirmed. Is that a practice of recent date ? — Of recent date ; eight or fen years. Is it the general practice now in Ireland ? — The consulting of parish priests is becoming a very general practice now in Ire- land among the Catholics, as to the original nomination. Is not the interference of the Pope in original nomination, whether under the idea of its being a missionary country or otherwise, an unpopular thing with the clergy of Ireland ? — It is quite an unpopular thing among both clergy and laity in Ireland. Do you not think in that respect they are under the same feelings that the English Catholics were before the Reforma- tion, in guai'ding against the encroachments of the See of Rome? — All the Catholic clergy and laity in Ireland, except those that expect special favour would, in my opinion, be quite unani- mous in liaving that nomination taken away, as far as it can be done consistently with our religious principles. If the government of the country were desirous of giving the Pope effectual power of originating nominations in Ireland, would they not find it almost impossible to do so? — They would find it extremely difficult to do it ; they would find it very strongly opposed by Catholics in Ireland ; I should myself op- pose it as far as I possibly could ; and if I thought I made myself master of the doctrines of the Catholic church upon this subject, if I found that I could safely oppose it completely, I would not submit to it. Are not references frequently made to the Pope, in questions which arise between the clergy and the bishops ? — Yes ; in cases purely ecclesiastical and spiritual, the Pope is the supreme head of the Catholic church, to whom the appeal in those cases lies, in all questions of controversy between the priests and the bishops ; when a bishop censures a priest, if the priest con- ceives that censure unfounded, he has an appeal to the imme- diate superior, to the archbishop, and if he does not get relief from the archbishop, he has an appeal to Rome, and they do DANIEL O'CONNELL, RSQ. EXAMINED. 275 appeal ; and I have known instances where a priest has thus appealed with success ; if the bishop alters the parish, or takes away any right the priest may -conceive himself entitled to, he has that appeal. Have you known it occur where the boundary of the parish has been altered ? — Yes, I have ; a Mr. Moriarty, a priest in Kerry, a very near relation of mine, was bishop of Kerry, and thought it right to alter the parishes by subdividing them ; Mr. Moriarty appealed to Rome, and appealed successfully, and he compares his bishop to Bonaparte : he said he wanted to Bona- partise his diocese. Have you not known references made also in cases of mar- riage, in questions arising respecting the marriage of parties ? — There are questions of marriages within the prohibited de- grees, that certainly do arise, and may be conveyed to Rome, and from information, I should say are conveyed to Rome ; and those questions are standing at present, and would make un- pleasant points arise upon ejectments by children : they ought to be settled by law. Are not those references to Rome unpleasant and unpopular ? —They would be verj^ unpopular if they were not upon mere spiritual questions ; but they are a resource against ecclesiasti- cal tyranny or misconduct, and in that view are not unpo- pular. In cases of excommunication are they not sometimes resorted to ? — Every Catholic is apprized, that any excommunication for any thing that is not religious, is itself a void excommunication ; but if there did occur a case of excommunication where it was a spiritual matter, the appeal would lie to Rome ; to the bishop from the priest, from the bishop to the archbishop, and from the archbishop to Rome. In the case of a marriage within the degrees that your church forbids, and that the Protestant church allows, the Roman Ca- tholic priest would consider his parishioner as living in a state of sin, if he cohabited with a person with whom a marriage had been celebrated within those degrees, and in a spiritual point of view he would endeavour to restrain him from doing so ; but with respect to the issue of the marriage, which the Protestant church acknowledges as a lawful one, would not every person of your religion consider that the issue was entitled to succeed, according to the laws of the country ? — Certainly ; and upon an ejectment they certainly would recover ; so much so, that if the parties themselves were not cognizant of their relationship, and if mischief was to follow from it, I do not think the Catholic clergy would disturb them, by obtruding the information they had not before them : I know that occurred in a most horrible T 2 276 DA>JIEL O'CONN^LI, ESQ. EXAMINED. instance with the late Dr. Troy ; there was a woman who had a child at the age of fifteen, and the child was taken to the Charter school ; and it happened, that at the age of four or five and thirty yeai's she married a very young man, and it turned out to be her own son : Dr. Troy became acquainted with the fact, and the result was, that he did not inform them of it ; she died soon after, but there was quite time enough for him to inform her of it, but he thought it was better not, for fear of the consequences. Do you know the circumstances under which the college of Clongowes, is called a Jesuit establishment ? — The order of Jesuits is restored in the Catholic church ; a man has as much a * right to be a Jesuit in Ireland as to be a lawyer thei*e ; they had property, they were Irislnnen, and they preferred vesting that property in Ireland, for the education of the Irish youth. Is the establishment of the regular order of Jesuits ? — I believe so; at least, so I understand; there are superiors, there are priests of the order, there are novices, and there are lay brotliers ; I take it to be a regular Jesuit establishment. Are they in connexion with any establishments in foreign countries ? — They are in connexion with the Jesuits at Stoney- hurst, in this country ; but they are in connexion as any of the orders of friars in the Catholic church are ; in the Catholic church all the friars have their spiritual superior at Rome, and their immediate superior in Ireland, or whatever country they are in throughout Europe ; it is so in every country, Catholic and Protestant, where there are friars. Are they under any general of the order ? — Yes ; every order of friars is under a general ; the Jesuits certainly have a gene- ral, and so have the Carmelites of the two orders in Ireland, and so have the Franciscans of the two orders in Ireland, and the Augustinians in Ireland, and the Dominicans in Ireland ; the only order in Ireland that has not a general in Rome, are the education monks ; they have no general at Rome, as I believe. Can they confer, and do they confer upon young men the order of Jesuit ? — I am convinced they do receive them into the order ; they go through their novitiates, and they make their vows. In the female convents a profession is displayed, and people go to see the reception of a novice, and her taking her vows. It is not made a sight of in the convents of men ; but the process is pretty much the same in both. Is a Jesuit admitted to orders in the Roman Catholic church, iririute ordinis .^— No ; the bishop must be satisfied that he is a fit person. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 277 The claims of the Jesuits, hi that respect, have been resisted ? — I do not believe they were ever yielded to in Ireland. Were they ever assented to in Ireland ? — I do not know, I never heard that they were ; whenever particular privileges are set up by any order of the church, they are generally resisted ; and any particular privilege would be resisted by the bishops in Ireland. Would not that be a question that would be properly re- ferred to the Pope ? — A question upon any privilege of that sort would be properly referred to the Pope ; but I have no doubt if the Emancipation bill passed, there is not a question of that sort that would not be easily communicated to the government. Have you heard that the late Pope wished to enforce that privilege for the Jesuits in England ? — I have not heard that ; but I think I inay venture to say, that it has not been attempted in Ireland, or I should have heard of it. Is not there an establishment for the education of priests in Kilkenny ? — I am convinced there is ; the foundation of May- nooth is by no means sufficient, in my judgment, for the edu- cation of Catholic clergy in Ireland ; the bishops have found it necessary to have a seminary for the education of priests them- selves. There is one, I believe, in Kilkenny : there is one, I know, in Kerry ; there is one, I know, in Cork. I am not ap- prized that there is one in Limerick, or in Clare ; I believe there is one in Limerick ; there is one certainly at CarloM'. Those are under the regulation of the bishops, and not of any particular order ? — Precisely so ; there is a distinction in the Catholic church between secular and regular clergy. The parish priests, and those educated at Maynooth, are all of the class of secular clergy ; the friars and monks are all called re- gular clergy. Are the numbers limited in those colleges ? — Limited only by the means. Can you state at all what is the number educated throughout Ireland ? — I cannot ; there is a constant demand for Irish priests from England and America, and the West Indies ; and wher- ever the English language is spoken they are extremely anxious to get Irish priests. The establishments you last mentioned, are for a younger order of persons than those at Maynooth ? — The bishops desire as much as they can, before they send any of their priests into parishes, to have them pass some time at Maynooth ; but Maynooth not being sufficient, I know several that were never even at Maynooth ; they were merely educated in the diocesan seminary. Do you not think it very important, that person?, who are 278 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESGl. EXAMINED. candidates for orders in the Roman Catholic church, should be very early brought from their homes, and put in places of edu- cation, where they are under habits of discipline? — Certainly ; till lately, they were almost all of them children of a very low class, but now there are many of the gentry becoming priests ; there are many events that contributed to a tendency to increase the number of the children of gentry disposed to become priests. Do you know anything of a class of persons, who went about the country, young boys, Avho called themselves poor scholars, boys who were to be educated as Catholic priests ? — Yes ; at present I take it that all that do it are impostors, and ill con- ducted impostors ; formerly there was a numerous class that begged its way to some education, by this means, and having acquired a knowledge of Greek and Latin sufficient, were or- dained when they attained the age of tAventy-three years and some months, and they then went to the Burses as they were called in Fi-ance; at present, I take all of the class of poor scholars to be impostors. Can you state, what class of persons the Catholic priests educated at Maynooth, and at those diocesan schools, are? — They are mostly the children of peasants or small farmers ; but latterly several gentry are becoming priests ; there are a good miany of them now in Maynooth. Do not you think an arrangement, for making a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy, would be much calculated to raise the order of priests ? To introduce children of a wealthier class certainly ; but, perhaps, not a better class. Those young men, when they get education, the cultivation has the same effect upon them, as it would have if they had been born of higher parents. They make, at present, excellent and exemplary priests. In your opinion, if emancipation was granted as a condition to the clergy being paid by government, would it not produce the effect of a better description of persons becoming candidates for the priesthood ? — If by better is meant, as I suppose it is, a wealthier class, it certainly would have that tendency, and a useful tendency for the purposes of government I take it, be- cause they would not be so much under the influence of very low people, as they necessarily are, when all their relations are in the lowest stage of society. They would be an important link in the chain of society? — I think the}' would be a very important and useful one. Are you acquainted with the Catholic college at Carlow ? — I know that a college exists, and I know the superiors of it. They educate for the priesthood altogether, that is, a person may be appointed a priest from that college?— Yes, a man may be ordained, as many are, who never were beyond the seminary of Carlow, as I believe. DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 279 Do you know the expense incurred by a young person, who goes through that college ? — I cannot furnish the Committee with any calculation upon that subject. Are you aware, whether the secular clergy in Ireland, are at all assisted by the regular clergy in the performance of their duty .'' — Yes ; the secular clergy of Ireland, in the towns par- ticularly, can never do half, or a third of the duties, without the regular clergy ; for example, in the parish in which I live in Dublin, I myself, and my family, hear mass every Sunday, at a friary in Clai'endon-street ; and the greater part of the Catholics of property in that parish, hear mass at that friary ; there are probably, every Sunday, near 1,000 persons who go to communion at that friary alone ; now but for that friary, the parish chapel would never be sufficient for the numbers that de- sire to go to communion. Can you state, from your own knowledge, the difference that exists in the Catholic church, between monks and friars? — The distinction 1 take to be exactly this ; we have in Ireland what are called education monks, a certain class that are of novel in-- stitution ; I w\\\ put those for the present out of my answer to the question. A friar, in its present definition, signifies a person belonging to an order bound by a vow of poverty. The monks have large estates and fortunes. A friar, pi'operly speaking, neither he nor his convent could have any property, some of them are supported by mere mendicity, and there are certain mendicant orders, but all those who are supported by charitv in any way are of the orders of friars, having taken the vow of poverty. The monks, some of them took the vow of personal poverty, but the order was rich; others were neither bound to poverty personally, nor by their order. Is not the assistance which the priests derive from the monastic orders, in the performance of their duty, chiefly afforded by that class of individuals called friars? — In Ireland it is, there is no other class in Ireland; the Augustinians, properly speaking, were not friars, they were canons regular of the order of St. Augustine ; most of the convents in Ireland belonged to the order of St. Augustine, and that order has been continued, but they are now supported as the friars are in Ireland ; they are all perfectly ready to assist the secular priests in their duties. Are not the convents in which females are, very numerous throughout Ireland, and very Avealthy ? — There are several of them ; they are not to say very wealthy, but they all can sup- port themselves, and their wealth is increasing, because each lady who comes into a convent is obliged to bring a certain sum, as three or four hundred pounds ; now that money is not con- sumed, but becomes capital, and the interest of it supports the 280 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. convent ; the consequence is, that as time rolls over them the amount of their capital is accumulating. Do you know the Ursuline convent in Cork? — Very well. Can you state, from general report, what the amount of wealth of that convent is? — I know the convent quite well, but could not make any calculation of that ; they have lately bought, outside of the city of Cork, a very handsome domain, which they are enclosing with a very high wall and gardens, and build- ing wings to the house that was upon that domain ; they edu- cate the Catholic young ladies of Ireland in great numbers, it is a favourite place of education for the young ladies. You did not hear of their offering a sum to the amount of 30,000/. for the purchase of an estate? — No; I did not hear of that offer, but I should not be surprised to hear that, between the money brought in by nuns, and the great accumulation of profits upon education, which to them are very considerable, for the nuns themselves teach all the arts, and every thing but dancing, and then they live upon very little. Is their object confined exclusively to the education of females ? The Ursuline convent in Cork is exclusively confined to the education of females ; besides the duties of the nuns themselves, which are purely religious. Is not that the case in all other female convents about Ire- land? — The other convent in Cork, which I believe is called Poor Clares, educate the poor children in great numbers, and I believe that they educate young boys ; they have an immense number of poor children, I know, that they educate. The question referred to the Ursuline order generally ? — The Ursuline order in Ireland is generally confined to the education of the upper classes, but wherever there is not another convent of females to educate the poor females gratis, they always establish a school to educate the poor females; wherever there is a second convent it takes that duty, they only educate the wealthier classes. Do all the female convents educate gratis throughout the Country ? — No ; the Ursuline convent in Cork does not educate gratis, they educate Catholic young ladies and are paid. You state, that the mode in which the wealth of the convents has arisen, is from the money each person pays in coming into the convent, which is vested as capital; can you tell the Com- mittee from whence they get the interest, or how that money is vested in order to pay interest ? — Formerly they used to lay it out in landed property, latterly it has been in bank stock or government securities. Are the Jesuits and Augustinians the principal orders esta- blished in Irelajid 't — They are the principal^ orders that are DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 281 established in Ireland ; there are Carmelites of two orders in Ireland, the shod and unshod Carmelites ; the Dominicans and Franciscans of two orders, at the least ; I believe some Bene- dictines, but I will not say positively, but those that I have mentioned, I know of. In case the Emancipation Bill was carried, is there any pros- pect of any opulent Catholics now resident on the Continent, returning to Ireland with their property? — That I have heard, but I know that if emancipation be delayed, some very wealthy Catholics will carry their property out of Ireland ; I know in- stances where they are preparing to do it, urged by the greater acrimony of modern times, and getting weary of the contest. What is your opinion with respect to the sentiments entertained by the lower orders of the Catholics, in reference to the penal laws? — The opinion is universal, that they are governed by force, and that those who administer the law, are in an attitude of constant hostility against them, and there is a perpetual hatred amongst them against the governing powers. Its effect is to indispose them to every act of the government ; and when a man is punished, his friends console themselves by considering it an act of violence and injustice, instead of being the administration of law towards him. Are they generally acquainted and sensible of the disability they labour under? — They are quite sensible of it, and if they want to be reminded of it at all, wherever there are Protestants in their neighbourhood of their own class, they are reminded of it by the greater advantages of being Protestants which they see; and if there be any thing at all of the Orange in their neighbourhood, that reminds them still more strongly of it. Would the passing of the Emancipation Bill produce amongst them any general feeling of satisfaction? — I am quite sure that I am not consulting the interests of the Catholic gentry, when I say that I am certain it would create great satisfaction among them, the links of society act upon each other down to the remotest part of the chain; and if Catholics were emancipated, they would be in their various stations according to their talents and merit, as Protestants are, and then the patronage of every kind would become equally distributable through the country, distributable from those individuals who are connected with the government through the country, and as soon as that occurred, the line of distinction that is so marked now, of keeping the patronage in one class, would be completely effaced, the effect would be that the people and the government would become reconciled to each other. Would the removal of the civil disabilities contribute to diminish the popular disorders and disturbances that have pre- 282 DA.NIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. vailed? — I am sure they would very much, at present every oppression comes upon them with a double aspect ; it is oppres- sion in itself and oppression from an enemy ; although 1 have never attributed the disturbances of Ireland merely to the want of emancipation, I am quite sure that the want of emancipation aggravates every thing of that kind, and consequently taking that want away would take away so much of the evil. You are then decidedly of opinion, that the removal of the disabilities Avould lead to the diminishing or getting rid altogether of that great practical evil, the disposition of the people to embark in distui'bance ? — I am sure it would very much facilitate the return to tranquillity; by itself it would not tranquillize Ireland, but without it I do not think you can ever have Ireland perfectly tranquil ; with it you would be making great progress towards tranquillity, with the prospect of arriving at it ; and one of its best effects perhaps would be, that it would jjut an end to the Irritation prevailing between the various sects . Would it tend to diminish the religious animosities that exist? — Most certainly ; I take it emancipation would completely ex- tinguish those, for I have always perceived that when Catholics and Protestants of a liberal class come to know each other personally, the animosity diminishes even by personal know- ledge. Is not that the case in the county of Kerry very much.?— In the county of Kerry there is no animosity almost ; there is scarcely a trace of it, with the exception of Tarbert, where there was a kind of hotbed for it ; it is unknown in Kerry. Does not a very strong feeling exist, and is not a mode of reasoning very prevalent among the people, that though it does not immediately affect the people themselves, still no children of theirs, however talented, can ever obtain the immunities of state.? — People perceive that very well, and calculate upon it among themselves, and their pothouse politicians do not fail to tell them so ; they remember some of the first names in Ireland having been the sons of peasants like themselves, and they know that every office and station and situation in the state is open to the child of a Protestant, and that none practically are open to them. Do those disabilities contribute to retard the progress of niternal improvement in Ireland? — Very much, because they aggravate the evils which otherwise exist, and continuing them will tend to perpetuate that system of disturbance wlhich of course prevent manufactures from settling and capital from coming in, and frighten away the gentry. Does it not mainly contribute to render the state of security DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 283 of property imperfect in Ireland ? — Certainly it contributes to perpetuate disturbance. Does not a very strong sympathy exist in the minds of a great proportion of the Protestant population with their Ca- tholic countrymen, in consequence of those priveleges not being granted to them? — Great and strong in the south of Ireland; a very large class of Protestants, a great majority of the Pro- testants are sincerely and unaffectedly anxious for the emanci- pation of the Catholics; indeed, with the exception of some of the more violent of a particular class of dissenters, and of those persons that are immediately connected with, and have a per- sonal interest in continuing the system, the Protestants in the south in general, with a few exceptions, are desirous of Catholic emancipation, as far as my knowledge has gone. In point of fact, from your intercourse with Protestants, which has been very general in the south of Ireland, have you not discovered that a great majority of the Protestants of the south are favourable to what is called Catholic emancipation ? — I have no doubt at all of it. Do you mean unconditional emancipation, or an arrangement with the Catholics, by which emancipation might be granted to them ? — I do not think the protestants enter into that detail much ; a great part of the Protestants are for emancipation in such a way as the government would arrange it, having (those who are best informed) no fears at all of the consequence ; there are others that entertain apprehensions, and therefore would require what are called securities ; there are others again that would not emancipate us upon any terms. Do you think the majority of Protestants who are favourable to Catholic emancipation prefer, or rather would approve, of only conditional emancipation? — No, I do not, in my own experience, except such conditions as I myself would be very anxious to see accompan}^ emancipation ; that is, such con- ditions as Avould connect the Catholics and Catholic clergy with the government, precisely as the Protestants are connected with it ; so that there should be no longer distinctions between one portion of the subjects and the other, either among themselves, or with relation to the government. For instance, a provision for the Catholic clergy, and a certain control to the government in the appointment of that clergy ? — As to the appointment of the clergy, a difficulty arises which Catholics would not accede to ; there are scarcely any of the Protestants of education in the south of Ireland, that say there shall never be emancipation. In the late disturbances in the counties of Cork and Limerick, and in parts of Tipperary, were not the attacks as generally 284 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESa. EXAMINED. directed against Roman Catholic gentlemen as against Protes- tants ? — Certainly they were ; and in many instances, the people that were murdered were Catholics ; in most of the instances. Do you think that any more apprehension jorevails in the minds of those Protestants, than in the minds of the respectable part of the Catholics, as to any consequences that may arise from disturbances in the country ? — Certainly not ; the Catho- lics of property have been equally anxious to put down those disturbances, and where I have known of it, to say the least, equally efficient. Can you give the Committee any information as to the course of education pursued at Maynooth college?— I can inform the Committee, that the course is published ; and that for a few pence, or at least a few shillings, the syllabus of the course of education there can be had at Coyne's, in Capel-street, in Dublin. Is there not a very great want of books at Maynooth college ? — They complain of wanting of books ; the funds are totally inadequate for Maynooth college ; without any disrespect, there is what I Avould call a miserable jjenury in the way that May- nooth college is treated. Does that want of books interrupt the course of study, ac- cording to the system pursued in the English laniversities by books ? — It affects it materially ; but the mind of youth during the period of study, especially at Maynooth, where they are kept almost isolated from the world, where they are not allowed so much as a newspaper, in point of jjolitical information, there it is actually a want ; there is an aptitude for learning, and such books as they have they devour in some measure, and become masters of every thing that is within their reach ; there are four or five or six years in human life, M'hen the mind is fittest for the purposes of the acquisition of knowledge ; they are at Maynooth at that time living under a rigid discipline in point of hours, living very temperately in point of provisions, and secluded from the politics and pursuits of the world, much more, per- haps, than one would reasonably imagine ; the consequence is, that all the influences upon the human mind tend one way, to acquiring as much knowledge as they possibly can ; and the effect of that is really most striking in Ireland, with respect to the young priests educated at Maynooth. Is the want of books supplied by very copious and lengthened oral discourses ? — They do still dictate lectures, which the young men take down ; and that is a most clumsy and tedious mode of education ; at least, so I understand. Then you cannot say whether those lectures ever go beyond the mere dry course of theological studies ; whether they em^ DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 285 brace political discussions at all ? — Certainly not ; politics are totally excluded from Maynooth. By politics, you mean the politics of the day? — The pohtics of the day ; political economy, it would be quite a treat to a youth there to be allowed to study. Newspapers, you say, are not allowed ?— Quite excluded from the young men ; I have a nephew, who intends to be a priest, at Maynooth, and when he comes to my house at Dub- fin, it is a great treat to him to be allowed to go over the news- papers, four or five or six weeks old. Are they allowed to mix with gentlemen and others residing in the neighbourhood? — Not at all. Then are the Committee right in supposing, that Maynooth college has very much the appearance of a very strict monastery ? — It has a good deal of a monastic discipline. What surprises me most, with respect to the young men educated at Maynooth, is not that they acquire a classical and scientific knowledge, but that they really acquire a style in the English language, that is of a very superior oi-der ; they write admirably well. Do you think, that that perfect seclusion from common life is much calculated to improve the disposition and habits of the gentlemen who are destined to become priests, and to fill im- portant posts in life afterwards? — I think it is. The Com- mittee will recollect, that celibacy is a principal feature with respect to the Catholic clergy ; then, if at the period of life at which those young men are educated, they were not kept se- cluded, they never could, in my judgment, from the propen- sities of nature, so overrule their passions, as to be able to live a life of celibacy afterwards. I think, therefore, that that spe- cies of seclusion is perhaps essentially necessary to the formation of the Catholic clergy ; and I know, from those persons who are thei'e, particularly those I see before me every day, that it does not at all prevent their acquiring even the manners of gentle- men, and the courtesies of civilized life. Do you think, that as this is said to be the age of liberality, in so very strict a state of education as that employed at Maynooth, that young ncien can imbibe those principles which they ought to carry afterwards into life, and which renders the present age so superior to former ages ? — My own opinion is, that there ought to be perfect religious freedom every where ; but when I say, that I think that indifference as to religious faith is a bad thing, I think people ought to be perfectly cautious in selecting, and perfectly sincere in professing a religious faith, and with these notions I am anxious to see the priesthood deeply imbued with the importance of their station and situation in life ; arud I look to the solemn, marked and religious education of a priest 286 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. KXAMtNED. as a great good in society. I do not think there is any practi- cal evil at all from it ; the liberality of the present age has done away, in my judgment, the possibility of any of those gloomy superstitions, that would be laughed out of society at present ; and after all, perhaps, we hear more of them in romances than existed in any state of society. Do not you think those gloomy superstitions are very likely to be imbibed in so close and strict an education as that at May- nooth ? — I have no such fears. What is to counteract it?— Science, while they are there, because they go through a course of natural and scientific phi- losophy, and they mix in their recreations with the world. Again, the very keeping away books from them makes them more anxious for them when the restraint is removed. Is there any prohibition upon the course of their studies, when they leave Maynooth for their vacations, or when they leave Maynooth to visit their friends ? — I am convinced, none except the general one against any work tending to immorality, and in particular those works that would excite ideas of impu- rity, against which there is a particular caution, and a necessary one, for the kind of life they are leading. I know an immense number of priests that have been educated there, and there is not a tinge about them of that species of superstition ; and the children of exceedingly vulgar people, you would be surprised if you met them in society, to see how completely the manners, and almost the tone, of genteel society, they had acquired. In the event of what is called Catholic emancipation being granted, the Committee presume you would think the present sum that is annually voted for Maynooth totally inadequate to the purpose ? — I am quite convinced it is totally inadequate at the present ; and I venture to say that, without emancipation, there is great danger by reason of this inadequacy, because there is a greater temptation to have Catholic priests educated in France, which is a growing evil to my own knowledge. Are you able to inform the Committee of the comparative expense of education at Maynooth, and at the Burses in France? — No, T am not. Is it not less in France ? — I am quite convinced it is less in France. Then the effect of increasing foreign education is rather to in- duce the lower class of the community to enter into the priest- hood ? — It would be one tendency, certainly. The Committee wish to know whether it is your decided opinion, that the objections that have been raised by many Pro- testants in Ireland, to Catholic emancipation, have greatly les- sened within the last ten or twenty years, tuid tliat the objec- DANIF.L o'cONNELL, ESQ. EXAMIXED. 287 tions to that measure, on the part of the Protestants, are much weaker than they have been ? — I think they are weaker now among the Protestants hi general : however, the mutual calum- nies, as I hope they are, upon each other, of the Orange party and the Catholics," have more exasperated the Catholics, and also the Orangemen ; and I think latterly there has been vio- lence against us amongst the Orangemen ; but among the Pro- testants there is less apprehension than formerly. J. know of my own knowledge, that the Catholic Association has won upon a great number of Protestants, particularly in Dublin. Do you not think that with respect to Orangemen, as you would define them, and Catholics, there is a natural action and re-action? — Oh, certainly; faults on both sides, in my opi- nion. The Orangemen probably entertain a very improper notion of the Catholics ; and some Catholics entertain very improper notions of Orangemen ?— Yes, I am sure it is so ; and one of the beneficial results of emancipation would be, to put an end to that mutual action and re-action. Do not you think that without emancipation, the exasperation arising from that action and re-action might be greatly lessened, by both parties abstaining from violent language? — I am sure it might ; but in point of fact, I am convinced it never will without emancipation ; the Orangemen have a personal interest, many of them, in excluding the Catholics, as any man has an interest in monopoly. The Catholics, on the other hand, wish to share in the benefit of the things so monopolized ; and when you add to individual interest religious zeal, when those both run in the same channel, they make so powerful a current, that it would be very hard to stop it. Do you think that it is possible that that good will, which all wish to see in Ireland, can exist so long as the Orange lodges exist, and Catholics are excluded from being Orangemen ? — I think that alone would continue the ill will ; I think that if the Catholics were emancipated, and the Orange lodges continued in their present system, that however loyal a Catholic may be, he could be admitted. As for example, the case of the Earl of Fingal, who fought the rebels in the year 1798, if he still were excluded from any society for his religion, that alone would per- petuate the animosity ; and if the Catholics formed a similar society, it would have the same effect. Is the general impression in Ireland, that no Protestant who ever has been a Roman Catholic, is admitted into the Orange societies ? — It is ; and I believe that impression is founded upon fact thus far, that in the original oaths of the 288 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. Orangemen, tliere is something to that effect, that he is not, nor ever was, a Roman Catholic. If Catholic emancipation were granted, do you think there would be any objection to raising the qualification of voters ? — I doubt whether it be a desirable measure, but it is quite ano- ther question, whether so much liberty being purchased by emancipation, it would be riglit for the Catholics to make a stand upon the forty -shilling freeholds ; as an individual, my own wish would be, to extend the franchise as far as I possibly could to every one. As a general principle ? — Yes ; I know the system of forty- shilling freeholds is full of abuses, and with the extreme num- ber of oaths with which it has been loaded, creates great per- jury. I am myself a parliamentary reformer upon principle. In point of fact, generally speaking, forty-shilling freeholders of Ireland exercise no freedom of election whatever ? — Generally speaking;, in many districts they do not ; in cities they do de- cidedly exercise a freedom of election, and I have known them to exercise it, as far as my experience went, in cities with great disinterestedness and at great personal sacrifices ; in counties, in general, they do not, for they become part of the live stock of a great estate. Do you think they can set any value upon a franchise, in the exercise of which they are so constrained ? — It is valuable to them, notwithstanding ; for even in an estate where they are very much in the power of the landlord, the landlord is obliged, to a certain extent, to use the phrase I did before, to court them ; and it is of value to an Irish peasant in the south, to get a tenure of land, and to have a life in his lease. Do you know the system that is in general pursued, of order- ing electors into the hustings ? — I do, and condemn it very much. Is it not by a note from the bailiff, as he is called in the north, or the driver in the south ? — Yes, it is done in that way ; there are great abuses in the system of regulations ; it produces great perjury, but if those abuses, particularly the perjury, could be done away, in that case I should be sorry to see the forty -shilling freeholds abolished ; although I do not mean to contend, that as a condition of emancipation, some arrangement might not take place upon that subject. In the parts of the county you are most conversant with, do not you think that a moderate raising of the qualification would equally benefit Catholics and Protestants? — I rather think, that by raising the qualification, you would raise the Roman Ca- tholic influence in most of the counties in the south of Ireland, DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 289 because the forty-shilling freeholder is much more the property of his landlord, than the 51. or the 10/. freeholder would be ; and as the greater part of the estates in fee are in the hands of Protestants, the consequence is, that with the forty-shilling Ca- tholic freeholders, the Protestant landlord has really an influ- ence ; whereas the 51. or 10/. freeholder would be more inde- pendent, and more likely to follow the bent of his own incli- nation. Then, in that way, it would be acceptable to the Catholic jDopulation of Ireland ? — If we were emancipated, the question politically between Catholic and Protestant would, in my mind, be at an end ; but, if we were to continue unemancipated, if it were understood as distinctly as I understand it, it ought, for those reasons, to be acceptable to the Catholics. Do you think, that Catholic freeholders, or indeed freehold- ers in any part of Ireland, are proud of their franchise ? — Yes, certainl}', they all feel its advantages ; it is the first step to- wards not being exactly slaves ; it mitigates every part of the system. In your own case, as possessing a landed estate, do you find that those persons who have leases for lives on your property will go to the mere trifling expense of one shilling, which is the sum allowed by law, to register their freeholds, without which registry they cannot vote ? — Yes, they would, if I did not get them registered. Do you believe, that is the general habit throughout Ireland? — I do ; I know instances where persons have had freeholds acquired by remaining upon common land upwards of twenty years ; and they have, at their own expense, unless somebody has done it for them, been quite ready to get them registered. Does not that differ entirely from the nature of a common freehold interest in Ireland; is not that a freehold in itself? — It is a fee-simple, but it shews that there is an anxiety on the f)art of the peasant, to have the advantage of being a free- lolder. Do you think, that at present in principle, the elective fran- chise can be said to be a franchise, when it depends upon so many circumstances that would prevent it being a franchise ; for instance, there is the necessity of registering every seven years ; if he does not register every seven years, he loses his freehold? — It is excessively clogged in Ireland, certainly. Do you think that that in principle is a franchise ? — There still remains the franchise in principle ; but in practice very much qualified by the regulations ; to a lawyer it is quite fa- miliar, that, whenever you set about mending a thing by Act of Parliament, you increase the other mischiefs tenfold, unless the u 290 DANIEL o'cONNELt, ESQ. EXAMINED. simple plan be taken of beginning by repealing every thing that went before, and making your entire system in one Act of Parliament. Do you think, that the population in Ireland, of the lower class of freeholders, would be satisfied to renounce what they consider an advantage, without any advantage being given them in return ? — They certainly Avould not ; and I should take it to be an excessively dangerous experiment to set about taking that right from the forty-shilling freeholders generally, without doing something first to conciliate them. Do you not think, that it might be easily brought home to their understandings, that Catholic emancipation being granted, was a full remuneration for such loss? — My own opinion is, that it might easily be done so, more especially if the qualifica- tion was not made too high in the first instance, and leaving to the present class their right during the remainder of their lease. Do you think that any good effects would arise from raising the elective franchise, laying aside all party feeling ? — Good effects in the abolition of perjury and frauds; but my own opinion is strongly in favour of extending the right of voting. Could it be extended in Ireland? — It could be extended every where, upon principles that to my mind appear the principles cf the constitution and of justice. Do you think that there would be any well-grounded appre- hension of discontent in consequence of it ? — I think if the elective franchise was taken away from the forty-shilling fi'ee- holders, without satisfactory emancipation, there would be well- grounded apprehensions. In the event of Catholic emancipation being granted, you think there would not be ? — I think if a satisfactory act of emancipation was granted, it would be very easy to avoid all peril upon that subject. Do not you think the feeling the Catholics would have upon the removal of what they consider a stigma upon their religion, would be that that was a greater benefit to them than any benefit they derive from the elective franchise ? — I am sure they would consider it so. I do not think there is a people in the world more disposed than the Irish to enter into that view of it. What effect do you think would be produced upon the Pro- testant freeholders, who would be disfranchised in the same way as the Catholics, but who would have no such compensation for their loss, as the Catholics would have? — My opinion is, that the Protestant freeholders would consider such an act as an un- DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMfNED. 291 qualified grievance upon them ; nor do I think there are any means of reconciling them to it. Are they not very few In comparison with the Catholics ?— In the north, I apprehend they are numerous ; I do not see how the Protestant freeholders of the north could be reconciled to it, unless by gentlemen possessing influence convincing them that there was some equivalent given to them, by increasing the general Protestant interest in Parliament, against the particular Catholic interests which would be promoted. If they considered that the carrying the question of emanci- pation, had a great effect in increasing the tranquillity of the country and removing the evils which aSect Ireland, would not that be considered an equivalent ? — I should suppose it would ; because it ought to influence every fair mind, and therefore the Protestant forty-shilling freeholders would be as likely to be satisfied for any thing that is reasonable, as the Catholic free- holders. How do the laws stand in regard to Catholic charities? — The law as to the Catholic charities in Ireland, I take to have been, by a recent decision, favourable to them to a certain extent ; there has been a decision, that a bequest for performing masses, is not an illegal bequest, but the Commissioners of charitable donations and bequests in Ireland being all Protestants, and having a power to litigate any charitv they please, and whether they are successful or xmsuccessful, they are entitled to the full costs of that litigation ; that terrifies Catholics from making charitable bequests, who otherwise would. It would be quite right in any bill of emancipation, to regulate that. With regard to money given for building schools, or glebe- houses or chapels, is there still a practical difficulty in the way of any person who wishes so to dispose of his property ? — I do not think there is any difficulty, that an experienced lawyer might not easily obviate ; there are difficulties with respect to trustees, who may not be so easily compelled to execute those trusts ; but in practice, what we do is, to vest the property in six or seven trustees, and as soon as one of those die, or two or three, then the survivors nominate new trustees, so as to make up the original number ; by that means continuing the property in joint tenantcy, going to the survivors, in whom a personal con- fidence, from their character, is reposed ; there is no danger of the intervention of heirs or executors, who would not be likely to perform the trusts; and it is by that scheme that Catholic charities are at present protected : but as that scheme requires a personal confidence, it is of course liable to abuse, and it is inconvenient, inasmuch as it creates expense, and creates trouble, and renders it necessary to have machinery to carry it on, u2 292 HUGH o'cONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. wherever things of that kind occur, and naturally retards the progress of charity. Then you are of opinion, it would be desirable to have the law maae more clear and satisfactory than it at present is? — I do think it would ; it is a very delicate subject to meddle with, and had better be reserved, if there were an Emancipation Bill, entirely for a subsequent consideration. Martis 8° die Martii, 1825. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON IN THE CHAIR. Hugh 0''Connor, Esquire, called in ; and Examined. What is vour situation in life, and where do you reside ? — I reside in Mountjoy-square, Dublin ; I was in trade, a merchant, but I have retired now from trade ; I retired last year. In what branch of trade have you been concerned ? — In tlie West Indian trade ; as a merchant, at the head of a house in the West Indian trade. Did you carry on business to any considerable extent ? — I be- lieve more so than any house in the West Indian trade ; I believe it was so considered, and I believe the fact was so. Are you acquainted with the state of trade, and commercial property, in the city of Dublin ? — I have a pretty general acquaint- ance with the state of trade. Is a considerable portion of the trade of Dublin carried on by Roman Catholics ? — Yes. You yourself are of that persuasion ? — I am a Roman Catholic, Can you inform the Committee, whether any Roman Catholics are members of the Bank direction in the city of Dublin ? — None ; nor have not been. Have any inconveniences resulted to Roman Catholic merchants in Dublin, in consequence of the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the direction of the Bank ? — A great deal of inconvenience, and a good deal of injury. Will you have the kindness to explain what inconvenience, and what injury, have resulted to Roman Catholic merchants, in con- sequence of that exclusion ? — I am a Bank proprietor myself, and when I was in trade, it would have been a great advantage to me to have been in the Bank direction ; not that the 300/. a year salary was any object to me, but it would have given me an insight into the state of credit of commercial persons, which would have been of great advantage to me as a merchant, and which insight I could not so well get otherwise ; besides, I considered the exclusion of HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 293 Catholics not only degrading to me individually, but to the Catholic trading body generally ; and, as rather a large Bank proprietor, I wished also tohave some insight into the management of the concern. Among the individuals who have been appointed to the direc- tion of the Bank, being Protestants, are there persons who carry on trade on a smaller scale than the Cathohcs, who, by the practice at the Bank, have been excluded ? — There are some persons in trade in the Bank direction, who carry on trade on a very small scale indeed. Have any efforts been made by the proprietors of the Bank, to obtain the nomination of Roman Catholics to the Bank direction ? — I have complained myself very much about the exclusion of Catholic proprietors from the Bank direction ; the Bank directors have made it a pretence, (for I consider it nothing but a pretence,) that the law interposed the disquahfication, which I know is not the fact. Can you state what proportion of merchants there are in the Bank direction ? — They are nearly all merchants, or persons that have been connected with trade ; it does not occur to me that there is, perhaps, more than one, that either has not been in trade, or has not been connected with it, and has had commercial experience and knowledge. What is the qualification in point of stock ? — 2,000/. stock for a director ; 3,000/. to be a deputy governor : and 4,000/. to be the governor. In whom is the choice of Bank directors vested ? — It lies with the proprietors ; but the Bank directors make a house list, and there is a combining and confederating amongst them, to keep up constantly amongst themselves, when once named, monopoly of direction, with party feeling, and to exclude Catholics from the direction. Are there many other Cathohcs in the city of Dublin, with whom you are acquainted, who are considerable proprietors of Bank stock ? — I know some that are considerable proprietors ; some of the largest. Are there any other public bodies in the city of Dublin, con- nected with the commerce of Dublin, from which Roman Cathohcs are excluded ? — There is the Ballast board I believe ; the ex- penditure of that board, last or the preceding year, was fifty or sixty thousand pounds, and I never heard of a Catholic being in the direction. I know a gentleman, some years ago was mention- ing to me, that he wished I was in the direction, but says he, no Catholic is in the direction, or has been in the direction ; I said, I was quite indifferent about it. With regard to the Chamber of Commerce, which is a volun- tary association of the merchants of DubUn, how does that stand 294 HUGH o'cONNOR, ESa. EXAMINED. with respect to religious distinction ? — I am not a member of the Chamber of Commerce ; it was established last year, and I was repeatedly solicited to be a member of it, but as I had given up trade, I declined being a member ; I do not believe any religious distinctions prevail there. That association is altogether of a voluntary nature ? — I think they are admitted there by ballot ; but when it was established last year, it was associated voluntarily. Within your knowledge of Dublin, have you known the wealth of the Catholic body to increase ? — Very considerably. Have you known any portion of that personal property which has been accvimulated by them, to be invested in the purchase of real estate ? — Yes, I have. Have you yourself been a purchaser ? — I have not been a pur- chaser ; I have an estate, which was left to me by a relation of mine, a merchant, who purchased it ; he was a partner of mine. In any purchase which you have known take place on the part of a Catholic, have you ever heard an objection raised, on the ground of its having been a forfeited estate in times past ? — Never. Would that circumstance be an objection to yourself, if you thought it proper to vest your money in land ? — Certainly not ; it never entered my head. Do you consider there is a disposition at present in English capitalists, to adventure in specvdation, in Ireland ? — I see there is a very considerable disposition. Do you consider that the political state of Ireland, has any ten- dency to retard such investment of English capital in that part of the United Kingdom ? — A very material instance of that nature, came within my knowledge, the day before yesterday ; a gentleman, a landed proprietor, a Member of Parliament, had nearly completed a treaty, to borrow 50,000/. in London ; I do not know exactly upon what terms, but however the treaty was nearly completed, and in consequence of the bill suppressing the Catholic Association, and the impression in the lender's mind, that the security for his money in Ireland , under the aspect of aifairs, was not such as he would wish, he declined lending the money ; this came to my knowledge the day before yesterday. Was the lender a Catholic or a Protestant ? — I do not know ; he is an English capitalist. And the security was to be upon landed property in Ireland ? — Upon landed property in Ireland. Do you understand in Avhat way the bill to which yovi allude, increased the unwillingness of the lender, to advance his money ? — He thought the security for property for an English capitahst, would be likely to become more endangered in consequence, as he HUGH o'gONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 295 conceived, of the discontent being increased, through the means of that bill. Did he express that opinion ? — Yes, I understand so ; the bor- rower is a noble lord. In what part of the country was his estate situated ; in the north, south, east, or west ? — It is about the south-west, I think. Did you hear him so express himself ? — I did not ; it only came to my knowledge the day before yesterday accidentally ; a profes- sional gentleman Avho was concerned in the matter, happened to mention it accidentally the day before yesterday ; I have heard of it since. Are you quite sure that the objection of the lender was not founded upon the proceedings of the Association, rather than upon the bill which put down that Association ? — I should suppose it was not founded upon the proceedings of the Association, inasmuch as the treaty was in progress when the proceedings of the Associa- tion were in activity. Then you consider the treaty to have broken off in consequence of the apprehension of discontent that might be produced in Ire- land ? — I have understood so. Then do you consider, that every cause wliich has a tendency to augment and aggravate that discontent in Ireland, tends to check the influx of English capital into that country ? — I should suppose so, certainly. Can you trace that consequence to the existing disqualifying laws on the subject of religion in Ireland ? — I should think so. Have you any particular facts upon that subject, which support that opinion? — I know that discontent very generally prevails throughout the Catholic body, on account of the disquahfying laws; it prevails from the highest Catholic peer to the humblest Catholic peasant ; I have no doubt of it. Is not that discontent ver}^ much connected with all the inter- nal system of insurrection and disturbance? — I should think it was ; but I resided in Dublin, and I know very little of the inte- rior of Ireland. My knowledge of Irish matters (that is, from my own actual observation) is confined to Dublin, and circum- stances there. Does not that discontent shew itself by those commotions that you read of and hear of in that country ? — I think clearly. Do not you happen to know that there is, generally speaking, great disinclination on the part of the English capitaHsts to ad- vance money upon the security of landed property in Ireland, amounting almost to a determination not to do so ? — I have heard so, I do not know it of my own knowledge. Arising from a doubt of the security being good ?—• Arising 296 HUGH OVONNOE, ESQ. EXAMINED. from a doubt of tlie security, perhaps, as well as from other causes. And arising from a doubt of the tranquillity of the country.'^ — Considerable doubt of the tranquillity of the country. Has it come to your knowledge that money is pretty freely lent on mortgage in the north of Ireland, at four and a half per cent ? — I have heard so ; but it has not come to my actual know- ledge. Have you ever served upon grand juries in Dublin ? — Never. Have you ever been called in court to serve ? — I think I have been summoned to the commission court: I suppose it was a grand jury. Have you never been called to the term grand juries ? — Never. Are you a freeholder of the city of Dublin ? — ^No. Nor a freeman ? — No. Have you known many Catholics summoned to serve upon the term grand juries ? — I have not heard of any ; I heard it stated as matter of complaint that they had not been summoned : I sup- pose none have been summoned, for I heard it complained of that they have not been summoned. Are very large sums levied upon the inhabitants by the grand juries of Dubhn ? — I understand so. Is it a matter of complaint among the Catholics, that they are not allowed to participate in the levying of those sums, and in the expenditure of them ? — I have heard it made matter of complaint by Catholics. Do you understand Avhether the exclusion from serving upon term grand juries is peculiar to the Catholics ? — I cannot answer that question precisely, for I scarcely ever went to the court myself; but I have understood it was almost entirely peculiar to Catholics, I have heard so. Have you ever heard, that many very wealthy Protestant gen- tlemen are equally excluded from serving upon grand juries, with Catholics ? — I have heard some wealthy Protestant gentlemen, who are what are called liberal Protestants, complain that they were treated Kke Catholics. Have you heard the same of any illiberal Protestant gentlemen, as they are called ? — Never, that I recollect. "STou have not any very accurate knowledge upon the subject.'' — Indeed, I have not. In point of fact, do you not know that the term grand juries are composed of members of the corporation only ? — Yes ; I see in the paper eight, or nine, or ten aldermen, and sheriffs, peers, and people of ttiat description. Does not that exclusion of all the inhabitants of Dublin, except those who are possessed of a corporate rank, tend to diminish the HUGH o'cONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 297 confidence which the public feel in the acts, whether civil or criminal, of those grand juries? — I should think it naturally would ; it does, in my opinion. Have you ever attended a county election in Ireland ? — Only once ; I have been, perhaps, twice, but only for half an hour or so ; but I did once attend two or three days. Where was that ? — In the county of Dublin. What description of persons, in point of property and station, are the forty-shilling freeholders whom you then saw vote, and whom vou have seen vote on other occasions ? — I took myself, from what I saw, some feeUng of objection to the forty-shilling freeholders; I rather lamented that there were that description of freeholders. Do you think they are in a station of life which gives any security to the public, of a fair and independent exercise of their franchise ? — I think they are not in that station of hfe that gives such security. In the event of a bill being caiTied for the emancipation of the CathoHcs, as it is termed, do you conceive that it would be de- su-able to make any alteration "in the present qualification of the freeholders ? — Very desirable, as it strikes me. Do you conceive that such alteration would be acceptable to the Catholics, if it formed part of a general measure of emanci- pation ? — It seems to me, that Catholic emancipation would be so great a boon, that I should think it would be acceptable. Do you consider, that a proposition for altering the franchise, without at the same time accompanying that measure with Ca- thohc emancipation, would be attended with risk or danger i* — With both, I think. Do you consider, that such alteration, would contribute to di- minish the fair influence of Cathohcs in elections ? — From my own knowledge, I know very little of the nature of elections ; I am incHned to think it would not diminish the fair influence of Ca- tholics. To what amount would you think it advisable to raise the quaUfication, from the present qualification of forty shillings ? — I have heard, that it was proposed to raise it to ten pounds ; I should think myself, that the lower classes of electors would think their rights too much abridged by its being raised to ten pounds ; I should think, that five pounds would be a better standard ; they would consider ten pounds qualification a hardship, I should think ; but I know very little of the nature of elections. In the observations you have made in regard to forty-shilling freeholders, do you apply your observations to counties at lai-ge, or do you also apply it to cities and towns ? — I meant counties at large. 298 HUGH O'CONNOU, ESQ, EXAMINED. In point of fact, in cities and towns corporate, are there not persons of independent personal property, who only exercise their franchise by reason of a forty-shilling freehold ? — 1 can only speak of Dublin; I know nothing scarcely beyond Dublin; and I thought the qualification for a freeholder, to exercise his franchise in Dublin, must be twenty pounds ; I have myself no freehold in Dublin. If any measure were adopted in places like Dublin, which limited the freeliold right, would not the effect of that be, to give an undue and unfair preponderance to the corporate franchise of freemen ? — I should suppose of course it would. Would any measure that increased the corporate power of the freemen, be a measure that would excite discontent ? — Clearly it would; great discontent. You possess landed property in Ireland ? — I do. Have you yourself ever made any freeholders upon that pro- perty ? — No, i have not. Do you think, considering the manner in which freeholders are made in Ireland, which is entirely by the volition of the landlord, and. the registering of them generally at his expense, and that they are carried up to the hustings to vote for whatever candidate the landlord chooses, just in the same way that tlie same person would carry his live stock to market, that under those circumstances, they possess the same feeling with respect to the elective franchise that they do in this country ? — I should think they do not ; they are driven up like sheep, to vote ; I should think they do not possess the same feelings ; I do not know, however, what the feel- ings are in this country. Are you aware that in this countr^^, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, a man is a freeholder by right of a property he possesses in fee .'' — I am told so. Does not he in that respect differ very much from the Irish freeholder, >vho is totally dependant for his franchise, upon his landlord ? — Certainly. Should you, as a proprietor, think your own power and influ- ence diminished by having the elective franchise raised from forty shillings to twenty pounds a year ? — My own power would not ; for I have not turned my mind at all to political subjects; I have not even registered my own vote in the county in Avhich I have an estate ; my residence in Ireland is confined to Dublin ; I have not seen that estate for this ten years. In Avhat county is that ? — In the county of Galway. Why have you not registered yoin- vote.'^ — I have not been in the county these ten years ; and T thought it might involve me in unpleasant circumstances, as I am acquainted with both the mem- bers, and some persons spoken of as likely to be candidates. HUGH o'cOIjONOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 299 Do you consider that it would be desii-able that a provision were made by the state, for the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland ? — I should think it would. Dou think that such an arrangement would be acceptable to the Roman Catholic clergy or laity, if it were accompanied by the general measure of emancipation ? — I should think it would, if accompanied by emancipation, but not otherwise. Do you think, that otherwise, the clergy would ever be brought to accept of it? — They have entered into resolutions to that effect, that is, to accept no payment but from their flocks ; they thought it might impair, if not destroy, the Catholic religion among their flocks, if they did accept it. You mean, under existing circumstances ? — Under existing circumstances. Was not the ground of their objection stated to be, that they might be considered as purchasing an advantage for themselves, whilst the laity were left in a state of exclusion ? — That was the ground. Have you ever heard of it being Ukely that any Catholic pro- perty Avill be transferred out of Ireland, in case the civil dis- abilities are longer continued ? — I can answer that question with regard to myself, for I mean to leave Ireland in consequence of the civil disabihties existing, as I now can leave Ireland : I find it not a pleasant residence. Does the unpleasantness of the residence arise to you, from the disabilities under which you labour, or from the party feeling to which reUgious differences have given rise ? — I take it, that the civil disabilities create that party feeling. Which is the inconvenience which you peculiarly suffer ; is it the pohtical disability, or the inconvenience of party feeUng.'' — I never sought for any place, it is from social intercourse being poisoned. Do you think that there are other Catholics disposed to take the same step as you say you yourself are incUned to do ? — It is natural to suppose there are ; I have heard many say, they would leave Ireland if they could Avith convenience. Do you think that any proportion of Irish capital will be trans- ferred to other countries, in case the disabilities under which the Catholics labour now are continued? — I should think there would ; I have myself some capital in France. You having retired from business, do not mean to say, that in leaving Ireland you would transfer your capital, but you would transfer your residence ? — I would transfer my residence. Because the civil disabilities under Avhich the Catholics labour, make Ireland not so pleasant a residence as you think you can meet with elsewhere ? — Yes. 300 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. Have you ever heard, that in case emancipation was granted, that Cathohcs connected with Ireland, who now reside abroad, would come to Ireland, and bring their property with them ? — I have not heard of Catholics who reside abroad having much pro- perty abroad, but I should think it is probable they would reside in Ireland if Catholic emancipation were granted. VenertSt llo die Mar Hi, 1825. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR. Lord Killeen^ called in ; and Examined. Where do you reside in Ireland? — In the county of Meath. Do you act as a magistrate in that county ? — Yes. Is the police establishment under the new Constabulary Bill — introduced into the county of Meath ? — It is. How long has it been introduced? — Since the month of De- cember 1822. How are the appointments of the police made in that county; by what authority? — The constables and sub-constables were appointed by the magistrates; the chief constables of course by the government. What description of individuals were appointed as con- stables and sub-constables by the magistrates ? — They selected in the first instance, those of the old baronial constables, who were qualified from their conduct, their age, and their learning, those who could read and write, which is a necessary qualification for them ; afterwards the magisti-ates appointed those that they thought likely to fill the situation with advan- tage. How have the expectations of the magistrates been answered, by the conduct of the individuals who have been so appointed ? — Generally speaking very well. Have you had an opportunity of comparing the conduct of the police in your county, which has been appointed by the magistrates, with the conduct of the police in other counties, which has not been appointed by the magistrates ? — Not ex- actly. Do you consider that any good effects have arisen in conse- quence of the magistrates taking upon themselves to make those appointments, and making them from the body of the people in the county ? — Certainly ; I consider that where the magistrates have made the appointments, the appointments LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 301 have been better made than by leaving it to chief constables, as it has, I understand, been done in other places. Have any ill effects arisen out of the appointments made by the magistrates, by reason of the local prejudices or connexions of constables appointed? — Not in tlie county of Meath ; I am not aware of it. What description of persons are appointed by Government, as chief constables in the county of Meath.? — Half-pay officers in general. Havethose appointments been such as to render the police of your county efficient? — I think they have. Are there any defects in the present constabulary system in Ireland, which have suggested themselves to your lordship's mind? — Yes; it is the practice constantly when a man behaves ill in one place, to remove him to another ; I speak of the con- stables, not of the chief constables. What would your loi-dship suggest as a punishment in place of his removal ? — It is hard to say. Can you state any particular instances in which this power of removal for some misconduct, operated to the prejudice of the police establishment in the county of Meath ?— No. Has it produced any evil consequences when it was done ? — Not that I am aware of; because the persons have been re- moved to a distance, and have been lost sight of. Are there any other defects in the present constabulary system, to which you would wish to point the attention of the Committee? — In the old baronial constable system, the police was so exceedingly deficient and inefficient, that we were very glad to have the Constabulary Bill ; and the county of Meath was one of the first in which it was introduced. Is the system of petty sessions introduced into the county of Meath? — Yes. Is it universally acted upon? — I think how it is universally, in the county of Meath, within a few months ; but, in some parts of it, it has been in existence for two years, or two years and a half. Is your lordship acquainted with any magistrates who still continue to act individually, after the introduction of the petty sessions system ? — No. What alteration do you conceive was introduced into the practice of magistrates by the establishment of the petty sessions? — I think the establishment of petty sessions has given the peo- ple a very great confidence in the decision of magistrates. Has that confidence resulted from the openness of the pro- ceeding, or from the combined administration of justice by two or more magistrates? — From both. 302 LORD KTLLEEN EXAMINED. Do you conceive that it has made any difference in the ex- penses attendant upon proceedings before magistrates? — Not in the county where I reside, I think it has not, because the magistrates immediately around us, were not what ai'e called trading magistrates. What do you understand to be meant by trading magistrates? — Magistrates who have not much stake in the country, and who receive payment for warrants and summonses, 8fc. Was that at all a common practice in Ireland ? — I under- stand it was. Is it common still? — I think not. What species of misbehaviour of constables is that for which they have been removed to other parts of the country — There is at this moment, I believe, I speak merely of the county where I reside, a person of the name of Rowley whose wife was a Roman Catholic; she was ill in labour, and wished to see the Roman Catholic clergyman ; her husband, who was a Protes- tant, did not choose that she should see a Roman Catholic cler- gyman: he sent for a Protestant clergyman, and the Protestant clergyman, finding that the woman did not wish to have his as- sistance, retired, and recommended that a Catholic priest should be sent for. The woman died without seeing any clergyman. That man was reported to the superintendent of the county, and he was removed to another post or station. Then his misbehaviour was not connected with his public duty as constable? — No. Are the Committee right in supposing, that the circumstances of misbehaviour for which a man is removed from one station to another, are circumstances not so much connected with his duty as a constable, as for his conduct in other particulars, which may have rendered him obnoxious in the neighbourhood? — I think not ; that is the only instance I can speak of from my own knowledge. Have not the police in the county of Meath, in some in- stances, been unfortunately obnoxious to the inhabitants where they have resided? — They have. In those cases, were the constables originally selected from the district where they were stationed? — I cannot say for certain. Has it not been the practice, to bring the misconduct of those constables before the magistrates assembled at petty ses- sions, by the chief constable ? — It has. Therefore any misconduct has been taken cognizance of be- fore the petty sessions, and they have come to some decision with respect to that misconduct? — In general. The punishment has been inflicted under the direction of the LORD KILLEEX EXAMIKEt). 303 chief constable? — Tlie only punisliment I believe, that the Con- stabulary Bill allows, is removal or dismissal ; there is not mili- tary discipline. In what respect have the police rendered themselves obnoxious in the eyes of the people at large ? — There was a case at Sum- mer Hill, the facts of which I do not at this moment exactly recollect; 1 know it only from hearsay; a case of what was called murder, there was a death. Is your lordship aware, whether the individuals, who were concerned in that death, were brought to trial?— The assizes are, at this moment, going on. In that case at Summer Hill, was the cause of quarrel at all connected with difference of religious belief? — I believe it was. Are you aware, that the magistrates have the power of fining constables for ill-behaviour? — Yes. And of dismissing them? — Yes; I think it is the government that has the power to dismiss. And of reducing them from one rank to another ? — Yes. When did that case, that you mention, occur at Summer Hill ? — Some months ago; I am not quite certain as to the precise time; but it is since the last assizes. Where are your petty sessions held, in what situations in the county of Meath? — I think at this moment the county is di- vided into seven or eight districts. In what description of houses are they held ? — We have four quarter sessions towns where there are court-houses ; and in the other towns they are held in the best houses which can be had. There is no power existing by law at present, to establish small court-houses for the purpose of holding j)etty sessions ? — I believe not. Do you conceive the administration of justice in those petty sessions would be more regular, and more impressive upon the minds of the people, if there were small court-houses established at the different stations where the sessions are held ? — I am sure of it. Have you heard, among the magistrates in the county of Meath, any complaint of the uncertainty of the present state of the law, with regard to the fees that are to be taken for the clerks of the petty sessions ? — Yes, I find it is complained of a great deal . Do not you conceive that it would be very desirable, that the fees that are to be taken upon justice business, should be fixed and ascertained by law? — I think it would. Is there a record in writing kept at the petty sessions in the county of Meath with which your lordship is acquainted, of 304 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. their acts done? — Yes, every case is entered in a book, and the decision upon such case. In case that practice should not be universal in other parts of Ireland^ do not you think it would be desirable to make it im- perative upon the magistrates presiding at petty sessions, to preserve a record in writing of all their acts? — I do, certainly. Is the attendance of the chief constables, constant at the petty sessions? — At the petty sessions that I attend, invariably the chief constable is present; I have never known him to be absent. Has it ever occurred to your lordship, that it would be de- sirable to confer upon the magistrates, at petty sessions any power of proceeding in recovering small debts'.' — No, I have never thought of it. Do you not think that the establishment of court-houses at different places throughout the county, where petty sessions are held, would cause a great deal of discontent amongst the population of the county, on account of the expense of it? — The expense might create discontent; but I am sure, in some towns, it would be very beneficial to have a public court, be- cause the great advantage arising from the "system of the petty sessions, is its publicity and openness. How are houses now provided at those places? — I do not know ; where I attend is one of the quarter sessions towns. Have you heard any complaint in the towns which are not quarter ssessions towns, from the magistrates, that they are in- sufficiently accommodated.'' — Not from the magistrates; but I have heard from a chief constable who attended another petty sessions where I do not go, that there was a great inconvenience arising from want of a large and proper house. What is the species of duty that devolves upon the magis- trates at petty sessions? — Chiefly servants' wages accounts. And informations ? — Of course ; but I should state, that as the county I live in is very tranquil, that one half of the year there is scarcely any business but those small complaints of the servants against the masters, for wages due. Do not you apprehend, that the giving to the petty sessions a jurisdiction in small debts, would entail upon them a very burdensome duty? — I think it would. Do you conceive that the gentlemen who live in the neigh- bourhood, would be willing to undertake to give up so large a portion of their time as would be necessary for the settlement of such questions ? — I cannot possibly answer for others ; some gentlemen 1 dare say would. Do you think it necessary, considering the mode in which those questions are decided now, that such a jurisdiction should be given to the petty sessions ? — No. LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 305 What time do the petty sessions ordinarily occupy ? — We meet at twelve o'clock, and we generally break up from four to five. How often do you sit ? — Once a week. Does it occur to your lordship, that, constituted as the magistracy is, and necessarily constituted, in consequence of the number of absentee proprietors, that great inconvenience might arise from extending the jurisdiction of the petty sessions, in cases of wages and debt ? — From what I have heard in other parts of Ireland, I should suppose it w^ould. When you speak of its being a fit tribunal to extend the jurisdiction of, you refer to that part of the country with which you ai'e acquainted ? — Yes. Have you ever turned in your mind to what limit the juris- diction, with respect to the recovery of small debts, might be extended ? — No ; six pounds, I think, is the highest sum to which a magistrate is now empowered to go. To what do you think it might be beneficially extended 1 — I should think, in cases of wages, very safely to ten pounds. You act as a grand juror ? — Yes. Have you been able to trace any material reduction in the number of bills which are sent in to the grand jury, subsequent to the establishment of petit sessions in the country ? — No, I do not know that I have. Are there any parts of the county of Meath, where it is diffi- cult to form a court of petit sessions, ownng to the want of magistrates ? — Except perhaps for the want of a proper house, there are quite or nearly magistrates enough to form a bench. In what district of the county does your lordship state it has been difficult to form a court, in consequence of the want of a house ? — I mentioned just now having heard from the chief con- stable, that at a town called Longwood, there was an inconve- nience arising for the want of a court-house. How far distant is that from any other place where petit sessions are held ? — Probably six miles. Has not the establishment of petit sessions considerably con- tributed to general good will in the country, to the arrange- ment of quarrels among the common people ? — Certainly. And given general satisfaction ? — Yes. Is it at all the habit of the people to come to the petit sessions, to refer their own little disputes to the magistrates for amicable determination ? — Yes, they do. Are the magistrates w^illing to lend their assistance in such cases? — Perfectly so. Has that a tendency to increase the confidence of the people in their leg-al decisions ? — I think it has. 306 LORD killeen examined. Do not they also apply to individual magistrates for the amicable settlement of their petty differences ? — They do ; but in general, in the district where I live, we came to a sort of an iinderstanding, that we should never act individually. Does your lordship apply that to acting judicially, or to act- ing in an amicable and friendly manner ? — I fancy the arrange- ment was made with a view to acting judicially, but a magis- trate would scarcely refuse to be a friendly ai'bitrator. Are the people in your lordship's neighbourhood ever in the habit of referring their differences to each other, to what they call The saying of two men? — Very constantly. Are they apt to be satisfied with those arbitrations 'i — They are. Would the presence of a paid magistrate meet with dis- pleasure among the magistrates in general, in your lordship's apprehension ? — Certainly ; I think it would meet with great displeasure. Would it not have the effect of indisposing the unpaid and or- dinary magistrates of the country fi'om giving their attendance at all ? — I think it would. Are you aware how the appointment of an assistant barrister at quarter sessions, being a paid magistrate, has operated in regard to the ordinary attendance of the magistrates of the county at quarter sessions ? — I do not apprehend that h9,s caused any difference, because the assistant barristers sit be- sides, to decide civil bill causes ; and upon the days upon which assaults and other criminal questions are decided, there is always a good attendance of magistrates. On the revision of the magistracy, were many gentlemen su- perseded in the commission of the peace for the county of Meath ? — I think only four. Are there many Catholic gentlemen in the commission of the peace ? — I believe ten or eleven. AVhat may be the number of those in the commission ? — There are more than fifty ; but I cannot be positive as to the exact number. Have any of the magistrates who were superseded been ap- pointed ? — I believe not. Does the number of Catholic magistrates in the county bear a fair proportion to the Catholic property as compared with the Protestant ? — Pretty nearly. Has the sub-division of pi'operty gone on considerably in the county of Meath ? — Not so much as in other parts of Ireland, because it is a grazing county. Is there any considerable extent of church lands or college lands in the county of Meath ?— Not a great deal I think. LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 307 Has your lordship been able to perceive any distinction be- tween the subdivision of property upon college and church grounds, or lands upon which there are no freeholds granted, as compared with lands upon which freeholds have been granted ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the church and colle- giate lands to be able to answer that. Have you ever heard of any objection being made in Ireland to the purchase of lands, upon the ground that the original title of those lands had been forfeited, and patent subsequently granted ? — Never. You have never heard of any disinclination on the part of Catholic purchasers to become possessed of estates so circum- stanced ? — Never. Nor do you believe any such disinclination to exist ? — I have no reason to believe it. Are there a considerable number of freeholders registered in the county of Meath ? — Veiy small indeed, compared with the size of the county. Have you perceived any inconveniences to result in the ad- ministration of landed property, by reason of the 40-5. free- hold system ? — I think it is a bad" thing for the proprietor of the soil. Will your lordship have the kindness to explain in what re- spect you conceive it to be a bad thing ? — A great sub-division of property producing a great many small holdings, and poor tenants, I think, injures the proprietoi's of the soil. How does your lordship conceive it to act upon the constitu- tional principle of representation ; are the 40^. freeholders of Ireland a class in the community, that exercise their own free judgment in the choice of a representative ? — I have heard that, in many instances, they do ; in other cases, and I believe more generally, they follow the interest of their landlord. As far as the interests of the landlords are concerned, your lordship would see no objection to an extension of the qualifica- tion from 40,?. to a higher sum ? — My answer to that question would depend a great deal upon what the higher sum were fixed at. Supposing that higher sum to be 10/. or 51. what would your lordship's answer be ? — I think that it perhaps would encroach a good deal, even at 10/., upon the principle of popular repre- sentation. The question is directed simply to the interest of the land- lord, as between landlord and tenant, whether, in the manage- ment of the land, the interest of the landlord would be better secured by a qualification of 10/. than, as it is now, a qualifica- tion of 40.?. ? — I should consider, that the interest of the x2 308 LORD KILLtilEN EXAMINED. landlord would be benefitted by having a richer class of te- nantry. How do you conceive that such a measure would act upon the interest of the tenant ? — I cannot exactly say. If the system of dividing holdings into 40^. freeholds has been injurious to the landlord in dividing the land, might not the system of throwing a great number of those small holdings into one large one, for the purpose of making one freehold, be injurious to those who are now occupiers of the land ? — I think it would. Do you conceive that the subdivision of land which has been going on in Ireland, promotes, in any respect, the comforts of the tenantry ? — I should think it does. I believe that in some instances, landlords, for the sake of having a freehold interest, consult the comfort of their tenantry ; but I speak here not of my own knowledge. In a former part of your examination, your lordship was drawing a distinction between the 51. qualification and the 10/., and suggesting, that a qualification so high as 10/. might be too great an encroachment upon the popular principles of our representation ; do the same observations apply to 51. ? — No, I think that 51. would not encroach too much upon the political privilege of popular representation. What description of holding, or what amount of rent, do you think would leave to the tenant an interest of 51. per annum in his holding, upon your own estate, for instance ? — I cannot possibly answer that question in a moment. What is the size of those holdings, upon which at present the lessees will swear that they have a 40,?. interest, as far as your own knowledge goes ? — About two acres with a house ; from two to four and five acres. That, of course, must depend upon the rent ? — Yes. What rent is generally paid, as far as your personal and lo- cal knowledge goes, for those holdings of three or four acres ? Those four acres, with a house, will let from 21. to 506". per acre. That would make it a holding of 11. 10s. a year ? — The ques- tion, I understood, referred to my father's estate. Then a rent of about 71. or 8/. paid to the landlord, will leave a 40,?. interest to the lessee ? — Yes. The land in the county of Meath is very rich ? — Generally very good ; there are parts of the county very rich, and other parts, where those freeholders are made generally, are not so good. Do you not know instances of a very large quantity of ground being in the possession of a farmer, who will register a 40,?. freehold only .?— -I do not know of any such instance. LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 309 If the Increased qualification for voting was to be made 51. do you not think that such change of qualification would be a wise measure for Ireland ? — If I am asked that question dis- tinctly, and unconnected with what is called the question of Catholic emancipation, I should say it is not politic or wise. As accompanying the grant of the Catholic claims, do you think such a change of qualification expedient? — I think it would be ; in fact, I am not quite prepared to answer that ques- tion, because my own mind is not quite made up on the subject. If the alteration were proposed without Catholic emancipation, I know it would produce very bad effects ; if accompanied with Catholic emancipation, I think it might perhaps be beneficial. The increased qualification would tend to check the subdi- vision of land? — I think it would. And the multiplication of paupers ? — Yes. You stated, that you thought that the existence of the 40^. franchise, and the desire that many landholders have to extend their freehold interest, induced them to add to the comforts of their tenantry ; in what way do you mean to state that to oc- cur ? — I did not state that of my own knowledge ; but I had heard instances had occurred, where landlords have been in- duced to give a good tenure and a house, and have so far bene- fitted their tenantry. Then the benefit of the tenantry is, in fact, giving them a freehold lease? — Certainly, giving them an interest in their farm. Does not the giving that freehold lease, coupled with the same desire of extending a freehold interest, add very much to the system of multiplying small holdings ? — Yes. How many have you known to be registered out of one hold- ing as freeholders? — I think I never heard of more than one. Is the system of joint-tenantry extensively acted upon in the county of Meath ? — I believe not. Has there been a contested election in the county of Meath, lately ? — Never, never since the union. Has there been one since the elective franchise was granted, in the year 1793? — I believe there was one not long before the union ; I do not recollect it myself. Then, in point of fact, the system of multiplying freeholders, which ha prevailed in other parts of Ireland, has not existed to any great extent in the county of Meath ? — No, excepting in the boggy districts where poor people crowd together for the advantage of fuel, which is ver}' scarce in that county. Would your lordship venture upon an opinion, as to what impression would be produced upon the minds of those persons, 310 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. who are now 40.S'. freeholders, in the event of their being dis- qualified, in consequence of the raising of the qualification of freeholders to 51. 1 — As I stated before, I think if it was made a part of the question of Catholic emancipation, they would not be so adverse to the measure ; but if it Avere proposed without that measure, I am quite certain their feelings would be hostile to the change. Does it appear to your lordship, that the general class of 40,y. freeholders take much pride, or set much value upon the possession of the elective franchise ? — As I was asked just now, whether we had ever had a contested election, and as I answered that we have not had one, I can give no very decided ansM^er to that question. Have you ever heard, in any one county in Ireland, of a can- didate canvassing the 40.S. fi-eeholdeis of the county? — It is not usual. In point of fact, whom does the candidate generally canvass, when a contested election is apprehended in other counties.'' — Generally the great landed proprietors. Did you ever know an instance of a candidate going about canvassing the 40^'. freeholders ? — No. Does not your lordship think those 40<9. freeholders attach a good deal of value to the circumstance of their being free- holders, and that they may look up to the successful represen- tative for whom they vote, for some little advantage after they have given him their services ? — I have no doubt that they do. Do you not apprehend, that the proprietor of those votes is more in the habit of looking up to the successful candidate, than the 40^. freeholder himself? — I should think, both landloi'd and tenant place some value on it. Your observations, with regard to the franchise, are applied solely to counties, not to cities and towns? — Only to counties. Are there not, in the county of Meath, several very consider- able towns, in which the inhabitants are 40>s. freeholders, which are not corporate towns or cities ? — There is only one town, in the county of Meath, that returns a member. Are there other considerable towns besides that, which do not return members? — Yes. What would be the effect upon persons who reside in those towns, in the event of their being deprived of their franchise, or by the qualification being raised to 51. ? — I should imagine that they would view the alteration with jealousy. Are they not equally deriving their interest under some great landed proprietor; or does your lordship mean, that the free- holders in tnose towns are fee simple proprietors ? — In the towns LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 311 of which I speak, I believe they are chiefly deriving under great landed proprietors. And following the interest of their landlords in the same manner as other freeholders? — Yes, generally. Is it not pretty much a matter of notoriety in Ireland, that those voters are driven to elections ? — I have heard of its having happened. Generally speaking ? — Generally speaking. Have you ever heard of the voters of a particular landlord being kept in confinement until they voted, to prevent commu- nication with other parties ? — I have never heard of that. Or of their being put into the pound? — No. Do you happen to know how many voters there are in the county of Meath ? — I heard some time ago, that there were not above a thousand registered voters. Possibly, the majority of those are not merely 40^. free- holders ? — Many of them are. Do you not apprehend that many of the 4.0s. freeholders in the county of Meath, from the largeness of their tenures, might register themselves 20/. freeholders, if they chose to do so ?— Some might, but not what are commonly called the pauper 40,S'. freeholders. Have you ever heard that a landlord has made it a personal quarrel with a candidate for canvassing his tenantry ? — No, I never heard of that. Does your lordship believe that a provision for the Catholic clergy, made by the state, would be acceptable to the clergy of the Catholic church in Ireland, being made a part of, and being accompanied with or following Catholic emancipation ? — I have had no communication whatever with any of the Catholic clergy upon the subject, but as far as my own opinion goes, I should think there would be no objection to it. Does your lordship think that any objection would be felt by their flocks, by those holding the Roman Catholic persuasion? — I see no reason why there should be, after Catholic eman- cipation. Would it be received, on the contrary, as a great boon on the part of Parliament, to those who now complain of having to support two establishments ? — Always speaking of it as connected with Catholic emancipation, I believe the peasantry would have no objection to such a measure. Is your lordship apprized generally, of the amount of income of the parish clergy of the Catholic church ? — I have heard that some parishes produce perhaps 300/. a year ; but I believe there are very few instances. What is the average, do you suppose, in your own county? 312 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. — I should think, as with us the population is not very great, per- haps from lOO/.to 150/. would be a fair average. Is that exclusive of the stipend to the curate or coadjutor, as he is called in the Catholic church ; has the clergyman to pay out of that his assistant? — Certainly ; the curate is generally paid by the parish priest. Has he no sources of income, except what he receives from the parish priest ? — I fancy not ; the curates are very poor. Are you aware of the income of the clergy of the city of Dublin for instance, or Cork ; have you ever heard any estimate of their incomes? — The parishes in Dublin, some of them, are very valuable. Of what value do you suppose ? — I have heard some of them are as high as 500/. per annum. Your lordship having stated, that you conceive the measure of a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy would be accept- able to them and to the laity in Ireland, if accompanied with Catholic emancipation ; does your lordship mean to suggest, that unaccompanied with that measure, a provision for the clergy would not meet with such acceptance ? — I am quite sure it would not. Can your lordship form any opinion whether the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy by the state, would be followed with an abandonment, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, of the fees they are now in the habit of taking ? — That would depend in a great measure on what the amount of the provision was to be. Do you think there would be any objection on the part of the Catholic body at large in Ireland, to allow the Crown the power of a veto upon the appointment of the Roman Catholic bishops? — Very strong indeed. Do you think the same objection would extend to the in- terference of the Crown in the appointment of all the Catholic clergy ? — I do. Would there be any objection to confining the appointment to what is called Domestic nomination, so as to exclude altoge- ther the power of the Pope in originating the nomination.? — I am inclined to think that the inferior or second order of clergy would like what is called Domestic nomination. Will you explain what you call Domestic nomination ? — It is very difficult for a layman to do that. You confined your opinion respecting the attachment felt to domestic nomination, to the inferior clergy ; was that from ac- cident or from any intentional limitation of meaning ? — By the inferior clergy, I mean the parish priests ; what are called the second order of clergy. Why should the superior clergy not be of the same opinion ? LORD KiLLEEN EXAMINED. 313 — Because I know that in many instances the superior clergy do not like the popular election which has taken place by the parish priests. Have there not been elections by deans and chapters in Ire- land ? — There have. In which the choice originated with them, and has been con- firmed by the See of Rome ? — There have. To that species of domestic nomination, your former observa- tion does not apply ? — No, by inferior clergy I mean to exclude only the bishops. Do you mean that the bishops would object to the nomination taking place by deans and chapters ? — Not by a dean and chap- ter, but by popular election. When in the answer in question, you expressed an opinion as to the sense of the Catholic church upon domestic nomina- tion, you meant to confine yourself to one particular mode of domestic nomination, the election by the inferior clergy? — There are dioceses in which there are no dean and chapter, and in that case the election has been a popular election, by the whole body of parish priests and curates. To such election you conceive the superior clergy might feel indisposed ? — I think they are rather adverse to that mode. In those cases, where the election was amongst the body of the inferior clergy at large, was there not, in point of fact, a contest between them and the superior order, who claimed a right of postulating a coadjutor bishop, or electing a successor ? — Jealousy sometimes exists. Are the Catholic laity extremely jealous of the interference of the Pope, in any thing excepting the most purely spiritual matters ? — No. Has there been any interference of the kind, to be jealous of.'' — Not that I am aware of. If the Pope did interfere in any thing except what was purely spiritual, would there be any jealousy ; there are some things in which the spiritual and the temporal authority are very much mixed ; and you hardly know where the spiritual authority begins and where it ends ; now in questions of that kind, would not the Catholic laity be disposed to be jealous of the interference of the Pope, if he started beyond what, in the greatest latitude of the term, is called the spiritual part of the question ? — It is a question upon which the people of Ireland think very little. In point of fact, is there any interference in temporal matters by the Pope.'' — None, that I know of. Po the Catholics hold, that the Pope has any right to interfere 314 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. in temporal affairs ? — No ; he has no temporal authority in Ire- land. Are there any appeals to the Pope in cases of marriage ? — I do not know of any, except to obtain dispensations. Is not marriage one of the sacraments in the Catholic church ? — Yes, it is. For how many years has your lordship acted as a magistrate, in the county of Meath? -About three years, as long as my father acted as a magistrate, I never took out a commission of the peace. Your lordship has acted as a grand juror ? — Yes. Have you witnessed, in your county, any unfair prejudice in the administration of justice, as between Catholics and Pro- testants, in the assize courts and sessions courts? — I do not re- collect any instance of prejudice or partiality at this moment. Ai'e the juries composed indiscriminately of Chatholics and Protestants.'^ — Generally more Protestants than Catholics. They are indiscriminately composed.'' — Yes; mixed juries. Have you ever heard it objected to the formation of juries, or pannels of juries, that religious party has found its way into the formation of them? — I know, that when the parties are of different religions, there is a distrust. In what instances, or when? — The qnestion has just recalled to my mind an instance, and a trivial one, in fact, but which will show the feeling of the poorer classes upon this point, at the quarter sessions, where tTiere was a policeman to be tried for an assault ; the policeman Avas a Protestant ; the other persons were Catholics ; and it was stated, and believed by the Catholic peasantry, that the petit jury were chiefly Protestant. The policeman was the person to be tried ? — There were two actions ; there was an action of assault brought against the po- liceman, and a counter action for assault brought by him against tlie other party. Had the policeman a right of challenge upon such an occa' sion? — If he had, I do not think he availed himself of it. You say the jury were Protestant chiefly ? — I was told chiefly so ; but the man was acquitted. Was the policeman acquitted ? — The bill, as against the po- liceman, was ignored by the grand jury ; the bill, as against the other man, was found by the grand jury ; but he was acquitted by the petit jury. Was the petit jury Protestant or Catholic ? — Upon the petit jury, I understand, there were one or two Catholics, but I am not certain ; I know it was not exclusively Protestant ; and I mention this case merely to show the distrust which the lower LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 315 orders have in the administration of justice, when the parties are of different religions. But the policeman was never brought to trial ?— The bill was ignored, as to him. Is that the only instance of which you have heard ? — In con- versation, I have heard of many. Has your lordship observed, among the lower classes of Ca- tholics, a disposition to apply rather to Catholic magistrates than to Protestants, for redress of injuries they may conceive themselves to have sustained ? — I think, in general, they have moi*e confidence when they see both parties united ; and that is one of the great advantages which, I think, has resulted from petty sessions. Have any instances come within your knowledge, in which they have gone to a Catholic magistrate more distant, instead of to a Protestant nearer, before the establishment of the petty sessions ? — I do not know myself, but I believe it sometimes happens. Do you think, that the circumstance of the exclusion of Ca- tholics from the office of sheriff, tends to cast any doubt upon the administration of the law, through the medium of juries, returned by sheriffs so appointed ?• — I do, particularly amongst the lower orders. Do you think, that that exclusion so existing, has, in point of fact, produced an impression upon the minds of the Catholics in Ireland ? — I think, that as long as Catholics are excluded from the office of sheriff, and thereby prevented from forming juries, the Catholic population will not have the same confidence in the juries that it otherwise Avould have. Are not Catholics sub-sheriffs ? — They are eligible, I believe. Is it not the sub-sheriff that summons all the petit juries, in point of fact and in practice ? — Yes. And Catholics do serve upon the petit juries ? — They do. Is not the sub-sheriff, where he does interfere in summoning juries, only a ministerial officer acting under the authority of the high sheriff? — I should fancy so. So long as the high sheriff is necessarily a Protestant, do you not conceive that some degree of distrust must exist with regard to juries, even though they are appointed through the medium of a Catholic sub-sheriff.? — I do. Is there not, generally speaking, a very fair representation of the Catholic property upon the grand juries ? — In the county of Meath, very fair indeed. Does not that extend to petit juries? — Yes, I believe It does. In point of number, is there not generally a majority of Ca- 316 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. tholics upon the petit juries in the county of Meath? — Very often ; I believe I may say generally. Is the sub-sheriif in Meath, Catholic or Protestant ? — I do not know. Are you aware, at any period, whether he was or not ? — I believe, last year, he had been a Catholic, but I have no know- ledge of it. So that, in point of fact, where the usage may have been to appoint indiscriminately a Catholic or a Protestant, your lord- ship has not considered it at all material, or of any consequence to inquire, what the profession of faith of the officer was ? — I have never asked the question. Mercurii, 16° die Martii, 1825. LORD BINNING IN THE CHAIR. The Right Reverend JaOT^ 1825. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR. The Most Reverend Patrick Curtis, D. D. Titular Archbishop of Armagh, called in ; and Examined. How many years have you been Catholic Archbishop of Ar- magh P — The last six years. Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, the nature and origin of the authority of the Pope ? — A Roman Catholic be- lieves, and it is an article of his faith, that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter, who was constituted head of the Apostolic College, the College of the Apostles ; and that the Popes succeed to him, the same as the Bishops succeed to the Apostles, and that he has the same superiority, which we call supremacy, the exercise of which is regulated by the canons of the church ; he is no more than a Bishop, but the head or chief of them all, and of the whole church. We do not know him as a King or as a Sovereign, he is but a Bishop ; that is, religion only recognises him as chief Bishop, and St. Peter was but an Apostle, yet chief among them ; but we suppose, and I think it is clear in the gospel, that he is constituted the head of the Apostles, and head of all Christians, Christ said, that on him he would build his church — on Peter — although Peter, as well as the church, was certainly fundamentally and effectually built on Christ, it is still very compatible, that the whole church should be built on him, Peter ; and that he, after his conversion (because he was to fall after that) was to confirm his brethren ; and that he was to feed Christ's lambs and his sheep that is, the common faithful and the doctors or pastors of the church. With respect to any thing else that he may have, of temporal authority, or his influence over kings and princes, (whom he has sometimes deposed) he did very ill in doing that ; unless he did it in virtue of authority that was given or allowed him by themselves. The sovereigns that he generally deposed, were the emperors of the west; the empire was translated from the east to the west. The sove- reigns of the west were then very ignorant ; they were a set of intruders at that time, Goths and Vandals ; and they thought it necessary, that there should be a certain number of electors, mostly appointed by or sanctioned by the Pope ; he Avas one of the chief arbitrators himseli'; and those people, in order to depose him (the emperor) often obtained the influence of the Pope, and so did the other Catholic sovereigns, who often applied to him for temporal as Avell as spiritual purposes ; the Popes all had, at that time, a great deal of temporal influence. DR. CURTIS EXAMINED. 407 poral Authority^— t think it is very | as opposed to it ; | l^^hrist. I do not I Is the claim, which the Popes set up to Temporal Authoritv, opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? — I do not conformable to it ; I do not say exactly that it was but certainly he has received no such power from Chris say but he received it from men ; the same as he received the kingdom he has now, or at least the dukedom, the Papal territory Whatever he had, or has of temporal power or authority, he re- ceived from men ; and, I believe, would have done better not to take it ; he became a great deal less influential man, as a spiritual chief, after receiving it, than before. Does the obedience that Catholics owe to the Pope, detract from what is due by them to the State under which they live ?■ — B}^ no means, we owe him no other than a spiritual authority, exercised according to the canons of the church; not arbitrarily, but according to the canons of the church ; but we owe him no temporal obedi- ence whatsoever. Does the nature of the obedience that Catholics owe to the Pope, justify the objection, that their allegiance is divided to the States they live under ? — By no means, we never profess any allegiance to the Pope ; we take an oath, at our consecration, of fidelity, as it is called ; what Ave mean to do is, to promise to him canonical obedience, and so does the priest to his bishop, and the bishop to his archbishop, but in a more limited degree. Is the duty that Catholics owe to the Pope, and their duty to their King, really and substantially distinct ? — Entirely distinct ; and, regarding different subjects totally, they never ought to be confounded. If the question, commonly called Emancipation, was carried, in your opinion Avould it have the effect of producing concihation and tranquilhty in Ireland ? — I really think it Avould have a very direct tendency to that. There would seem then to be no sufficient mo- tive for any persecution or contest, as it were against the Catho- lics ; they are now put down merely to keep up an ascendency. There would be always an ascendency, but not an ascendency car- ried forward in terms so repugnant, and so disagreeable. I believe it would serve to bring people together, and to make them forget their disputes ; that there would be few or no disputes in secular matters, and really none at all almost in religious matters, because the religious disputes are brought forward against Catholics, not for religious purposes, but for secular purposes, depend upon it. The Most Reverend Da7iiel Murray, D. D. Titular Arch- bishop of Dublin, called in ; and Examined. How many years have you been Roman Catholic archbishop of Dublin ? — Since the decease of my predecessor, on the 11th of May, 1823. 408 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. Were you coadjutor to the late Doctor Troy ? — I was. «(;" How many years ? — Since the year 1809. V Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, what is the nature and origin of the authority of the Pope ? — The origin of the authority of the Pope we hold to be from God, who estabhshed a head of the church which he wished to appoint on earth ; the nature of his authority is, that he is the executive power of that ; church ; his office is to watch over and enforce the observance of ; the canons ; he is, besides, the centre of Catholic unity, the great link that holds together all the different parts of the Catholic body ; so that each Catholic throughout the world, finding himself in com- munion with the head of the church, may know thereby that he is in communion with the whole body. ^ Is his authority confined altogether to a spiritual authority ? — /Wholly confined to a spiritual authority, according to the words of Xpur Saviour, " My kingdom is not of this world." Is that authority under the control of general councils ? — That authority is limited by the councils and canons of the church ; he is the executive power of the church, appointed to preside over it, and enforce its canons or laws. Those canons vest in individuals, for instance in bishops, certain rights, which of course, it is the duty of the Pope to protect, and not to violate ; his authority is thus limited by those canons. To what extent and in what manner, does a Catholic profess to obey the Pope .? — Solely in Spiritual matters, or in such mixed matters as came under his government, such as marriage for in- stance, which we hold to be a sacrament as well as a civil contract ; as it is a sacrament, it is a spiritual thing, and comes under the jurisdiction of the Pope ; of course he has authority over that spi- ritual part of it ; but this authority does not affect the civil rights of the individuals contracting. Does this obedience detract from what is due by a Catholic to the state under which he lives .? — Not in the least ; the powers are Avholly distinct. Does it justify an objection that is made to Catholics, that their allegiance is divided .'' — Their allegiance in civil matters is completely undivided. Is the duty which the Catholic owes to the Pope, and the duty which he owes to the King, really and substantially distinct ? — Wholly distinct. How far is the claim, that some Popes have set up to Temporal Authority, opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? — As far as it may { have been exercised as coming from a right granted to him by God, ( it appears to me to be contrary to Scripture and tradition ; but as I far as it may have been exercised in consequence of a right con- \ ferred on him by the different Christian powers, who looked up to DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 409 him at one time, as the great parent of Christendom, who appointed \s him as the arbitrator of their concerns, many of whom submitted ( their kingdoms to him, and laid them at his feet, consenting to re- ', ceive them back from him as fiefs, the case is different. The power j that he exercised under that autliority, of course passed away, when ' those temporal princes, who granted it, chose to withdraAv it. His spiritual power does not allow him to dethrone kings, or to absolve their subjects from the allegiance due to them ; and any attempt of that kind I would consider contrary to scripture and tradition. Does the Pope now dispose of temporal afliairs within the king- doms of any of the princes of the Continent.^ — Not that I am aware of; I am sure he does not. Do the Catholic clergy admit that all the bulls of the Pope arc entitled to obedience ? — They are entitled to a certain degree of reverence. If not contrary to our usages, or contrary to the law of God, of course they are entitled to obedience, as coming from a superior. We owe obedience to a parent, we owe obedience to the King, we owe it to the law ; but if a parent, the King, or the law, were to order us to do any thing that is wrong, we would deem it a duty to say, as the Apostles did on another occasion, "" We ought to obey God rather than men." Are there circumstances under which the Catholic clergy would not obey a bull of the Pope ? — Most certainly. What is the true meaning of the following words, in the creed of Pius the Fourth: " 1 promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Bishop, the Successor of Saint Peter ?"" — Cajionical obedi- ence, in the manner I have just described, within the sphere of his own authority, What do the principles of the Catholic religion teach, in respect to the performance of civil duties ? — They teach that the perform- ance of civil duties is a conscientious obligation which the law of God imposes on us. Is the divine law then quite clear, as to the allegiance due by subjects to their prince ? — Quite clear. In what books are to be found the most authentic exposition of the Faith of the Catholic church ? — In that very creed that has been mentioned, the creed of Pius the Fourth ; in the catechism which was published by the direction of the Council of Trent, called " The Roman Catechism," or " The Catechism of the Council of Trent C " An Exposition of the Cathohc Faith, by the Bishop of Meaux, Bossnet ;" " Verron's Rule of Faith;" " Holden's Analysis of Faith," and several others. The Committee have before them a petition presented to the House of Commons, of the Dean and Chapter of the cathedral church of Peterborough ; the petitioners say they consider as ut- terly unfounded, the allegation of the Romish Church being at 410 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. present less ambitious and less intolerant, than in former periods of its history ; what observations woidd you be disposed to make upon that paragraph ? — I consider it a very unfounded charge, which those who allege it should be bound to prove, or to retract. I do not think, that any facts can be found to substan- tiate that charge ; I conceive that the Catholic church is not into- lerant, that the members of it are not marked by any pecuMar degree of ambition ; on the contrary, I find in them much hu- mility, as much as in any other description of Christians. I con- sider the charge wholly unsupported by fact. Is not the character of the Church as referred to here, its poli- tical character, the character of the religion, of the ministers of the religion, and of the members of the religion, different to what it was some centuries ago? — I do not consider that the Church has by its constitution, any political character; as a church, I conceive that its object is wholly spiritual, the sal- vation of souls. I cannot conceive that it has any pohtical cha- racter, except such as the State chooses to bestow upon it ; our Church endeavours to educate its ministers with feelings of hu- mility and a sense of devotion, rather than of ambition ; and it teaches them to elevate themselves, by their zeal in promoting the salvation and happiness of men, rather than by any temporal pursuits. In respect of Faith, has any change taken place? — With re- spect to Faith, there can be no change ; the Faith of the Catholic church Ave consider invariable ; its discipline is always changing, according to the local circumstances of the different kingdoms where it is placed. You are disposed to deny, that at present, it is either ambitious or intolerant ? — I wholly deny the charge. The Committee have before them a recent publication, entitled, " Justification by Faith, in a course of Sermons, by the Reverend John William Whittaker ;" those Sermons having been preached in the month of January, 1825. The Committee will read a para^ graph or two, and ask you for any observations you may think proper to make vipon them. In the second Sermon are the follow- ing observations : page 30. " It has been above observed, that justification by works, implies that ' we shall be rewarded precisely to the extent in which our good actions exceed our bad ones ;"" from this it may be inferred, that any portion of the former will oblite- rate an equal quantity of the latter." The Sermon proceeds, p. 31 . " If this be true, (and it cannot be denied by one who avows a justification by iv-orks alone,) we have fairly established the merits of the Saints and works of supererogation, which our Church has unequivocally and laudably condemned in our fourteenth Article ; those are the great bulwarks and strongholds of superstition. If DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. Ill a person once believe in those supererogatory funds of merit, it re- quires very little additional credulity to think, that the holy men to whom they belong, can transfer them to whom they please, or sell them, or bequeath them as a legacy to their successors. Hence came that Romish treasure-house of merit, accumulated by all the Saints in the calendar, Avhich in the days of ignorance proved so lucrative. Hence the infamous traffic of indulgences and free par- dons for sin, which by anticipating guilt, tempted men to commit vice, and under the pretence of religion, sanctioned the blackest crimes. Hence even the invocation of the Saints themselves, and all the blasphemies that attend this open and shameless idolatry."" The Sermon proceeds and states, " These dreadful results Avould not, I am well aware, have followed that doctrine in an enhght- ened age, because persons of information invariably forsake their principles, when they lead them to contradict their understand- ings, always preferring inconsistency to absurdity. But they are the natural and luxuriant growth of an ignorant age ; and we know by experience that, when they have once taken root, they continue to keep their ground, notwithstanding the present diffu- sion of knowledge." Does the Catholic church adopt the doc- trine of justification by works alone .'' — I perceive from the passage which has been read, that my answer must be somewhat at large, and I trust that the Committee will make allowance for the wovmded feelings under which I find myself compelled to make that answer. I am really grieved that any Christian divine could be found to utter such a charge against so large a portion of his Christian brethren. It would appear from the first passage wliich has been read, that our idea of justification is, that if our good works overbalance our bad works, or if we perform a great quan- tity of good works, that will empower vis to do a certain portion of bad works, and still leave us a sufficient fund for justification here, and salvation hereafter. I cannot find any language suffi- ciently strong to mark my abhorrence of that demoralizing doc- trine. Not only is it true, in our belief, that no quantity of good works or of virtues that can be practised, can ever give us liberty to commit a sin, but we believe that after a long life passed in the practice of every virtue, social and religious, one sin, one solitary grievous sin against the law of God, would be sufficient to blast the highest sanctity to which human nature, aided by grace, can arrive ; and that after all that long hfe of virtue, this solitary sin would mark out the individual so committing it, to the anger of Almighty God here ; and if he were to go impenitent in that state, into his presence, our doctrine is, that he could never see his face in mercy. Thus then our doctrine of justification, is not a kind of balance between our good and bad works ; our doctrine 412 DR. MURllAY EXAMINED. utterly denies the lawfulness of any sin under any possible circum- stance, and no virtues or series of virtues, that Ave can ever prac- tise, can, under any circumstances, give us the least title or privi- lege or liberty to commit a sin. How then, according to our doc- trine, is this sin, once committed, to be blotted out ? Upon no other condition, than that of sincere and deep-felt repentance. No other good works that Ave can perform, will ever remove the stain that has been fixed upon the soul. We may fast, Ave may pray, Ave may give alms, Ave may go to confession and receive absolution ; all is nothing towards the effacing of that sin, until the heart is changed by contrition and repentance, and that re- pentance must be so intense, and our hatred to that sin must be so sincere, that rather than commit the same or another grievous sin in future, our i-esolution should be to incur in preference a thousand deaths. That is the nature of the repentance Avhich Ave deem necessary, as a first step toAvards the effacing of that sin ; yet this is only the first step. After this it is required that the criminal should go and humble himself to his felloAv man in the tribunal of penance, acknowledge himself as guilty of that crime, in sentiments of humility and compunction ; he must promise to repair any injury Avhich that sin may have offered to his neigh- bour ; and he must likeAvise, as a mark of his detestation for it, receive Avith docility Avhatever penances or works of austerity may be enjoined. Thus then Ave require all that every other Christian denomination requires for the remission of sin, that is, sincere and intense repentance, including a purpose of future amend- ment ; and Ave require further the additional humiliation of con- fession, the receiving of absolution from the proper authority, and an intention to practise such penitential works as may be enjoined, or as the nature of the sin may require. With regard to justifi- cation by Avorks, we hold no such doctrine as justification by Avorks alone : Ave always require faith through divine grace, for Saint Paul says, that without faith it is impossible to please God. Before justification, divine grace must touch the heart, and awaken us to the knoAv ledge of God, as the reward er of virtue and the punisher of vice. The contemplation of his attributes through faith, leads us gradually to horror for sin, and the love of virtue ; to confidence through Christ, in his boundless good- ness and mercies, and from confidence to that divine love, which unites us in friendship with God, and Avithout which no one can be justified ; all those things, it is true, Ave consider Avorks. The very act of repentance that I have mentioned, is a work, and the act of confidence and love of God, those are all Avorks, but they are also considered as the effects of faith ; all flowing from that faith which, according to Saint Paul, " worketh by charity." DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 413 To what authority can you refer to shew the true doctrine of the Cathohc church, Avith regard to Justification ? — The Council of Trent most distinctly. What is the doctrine of the Cathohc church, with respect to Indulgences ? — The authorities of the Catholic church have, in virtue of the power of the keys committed to them, a power to remit a certain portion of the temporal punishment due to sin, after the guilt of sin has been remitted ; but in no case can In- dulgences have effect, till the person is first justified and recon- ciled with God. Are indulgences ever granted for anticipated guilt ? — Never ; there can be no permission to conmiit sin of any kind. The Committee have before them a book, entitled, " A Pro- testant Catechism, shewing the principal Errors of the Church of Rome ; printed in Dublin, for Ann Watson, in the year 182J2 ;" the Committee will read to you some of the Questions and An- swers, and ask your opinion upon them. In page 9, there is this Question, " How do the Papists treat those whom they call Heretics ?"" The Answer is, " They hold, that faith is not to be kept witli Heretics, and that the Pope can absolve subjects from their oaths of allegiance to their sovereigns ?" — To one part of that Question I have ah'eady answered, the Pope cannot absolve subjects from their oaths of allegiance ; to the other I answer, with equal distinctness, it is no part of our doctrine, that faith is not to be kept with Heretics, in that sense in which faith is under- stood to be fidelity to engagements ; we are bound to observe our oath, our pledge, our contract, our agreement, with persons differing from us in religion, in the same way as we are with one another. Is there any sense, in which it is the doctrine of the Catholic church, that faith is not to be kept with Hei'etics ? — Only in this sense, that our faith, that is, divine faith ; our code of faith is not the same as that of Protestants ; so that we do not hold spiritual communion with them. Then in the ordinary acceptation of the words, it is no part of the doctrine of your Chm-cli, that faith is not to be kept with Hei'etics ? — No part of the doctrine of our church. I merely made that distinction, lest I should be understood as applying my answer to religious faith ; to the code of religious behef. The common acceptation of the words, keeping faith with people, is not that you have community of faith with them, but that you keep your engagements with them ? — In that sense I have answered distinctly. Do not all Roman Catholics, in the oaths that they are re- quii'ed to take, for qualifying, and enjoying relief from the penal code of Queen Anne, and other reigns, swear, " I reject and de- 414 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. test, as an unchristian and impious principle, that faith is not to be kept with Heretics?" — Certainly. That oath is willingly taken by all Roman Catholics ? — With- out the least hesitation ; most willingly. In page 11, there is this Question and Answer, " Do the Papists pray to any other beings, besides Almighty God?" The Answer is, " They pray to Angels and Saints, to intercede for them, and save them by their merits.*''' What have you to observe upon that? — We pi'ay to saints, and we ask the prayers of saints, in the same sense in which St. Paul asked the prayers of his fellow men ; and we confide in the prayers of saints, just as St. Paul confided, that the prayers of Philemon would contri- bute to restore him to liberty. Whenever we pray to the saints, we merely ask them, to present our prayers, through Christ, to the throne of grace, in the same way that St. Paul asked his fellow men to pray for him, that speech might be given him ; and that he might preach with confidence, the mystery of the Gospel. Do Roman Catholics worship saints as God ? — By no means ; we honour them, as the friends of God ; and we honour God, in them, as they are his friends, Avhom he loves, and in whom his grace has triumphed. In page 12, there is this Question, " May we not worship the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of our Lord ?" and the Answer is, " Though the Papists address many more prayers to her than to Almighty God himself, yet there is neither command nor example in the word of God to support such worship ; and she is but a creature, it is downright idolatry?'"' — We never address any prayer to the Virgin j\Iary, to give us anything of her own ; for she has nothing of her o^vn to give; all that she has is the gift of God ; and when we pray to her, we merely ask her to present our petitions, through her Son, as I mentioned before, to the throne of mercy and grace : this we conceive, is not idolatry, nor any- thing approaching idolatry ; for it does not give to any creature the worship that is due to God. Is it a doctrine of the Catholic church, that promises or engage- ments made with Heretics, are in any degree, or under any cir- cumstances, less binding upon the Catholic who makes them, than promises or engagements made with a Rbman Catholic would be ? — In no degree, and under no circvun stances less binding, than oaths and engagements made to Catholics. The rehgious faith therefore of the person with whom the en- gagement or promise is made, cannot in any degree affect the obligation of the promise which has been made ? — Not in the least. AVhat authority has Gother amongst Catholics, as a wiiter DR. MURRAY EXAMIl^ED. 415 upon the Catholic religion ? — He is considered a very zealous and correct divine; he is very much in use amongst Catholics. And his authority is received as sound ? — His authority is considerable as an individual; the authority of no divine is paramount. In order to remove the prejudices of Protestants, Gother puli- lished a work, entitled, A Vindication of Roman Cathohcs, as also their declaration, affirmation, commination, shewing their abhorrence of the following tenets, commonly laid at their door ; and they here oblige themselves, that if the ensuing curses be added to those appointed to be read on the first day of Lent, they will seriously and heartily answer Amen to them all : First, it is stated, " Cursed is he that commits idolatry ; that prays to images or relics, or worships them for God ; ■" do you acknowledge the accuracy of that doctrine ? — Fully ; I do not hke much the idea of cursing, but there is hardly any language strong enough to express the abhorrence I feel, of the doctrine that is there denounced. Second : " Cursed is every goddess worshipper, that believes the Virgin Mary to be any more than a creature ; that honours her, worships her, or puts his trust in her, more than in God ; that believes her above her Son, or that she can in any thing command him ? — I fully concur in the rejection of that impious doctrine. Third, " Cursed is he that beUeves the Saints in heaven, to be liis redeemers, that prays to them as such, or that gives God's honour to them, or to any creature whatsoever?"" — I repeat the same answer. Fourth, " Cursed is he that worships any breaden god, or makes gods of the empty elements of bread and wine.''*" — I con- cur fully, in renovmcing in the strongest language which can be used, that impious doctrine. Fifth, " Cursed is he that believes priests can forgive sins, whether the sinner repents or not, or that there is any power in earth or in heaven, that can forgive sins without a hearty repent- ance and serious purpose of amendment ? '' — I consider the doc- trine \ncked and impious. Sixth, " Cursed is he that believes that there is authority in the Pope, or any other, that can give leave to commit sins, or that can forgive him his sins for a sum of money ?"" — I repeat the same answer. Then the thirteenth, " Cursed is he that believes that the Pope can give to anv, upon any account whatsoever, a dispensa- tion to lie or swear falsely, or that it is lawful for any at the last hour, to protest himself innocent in case he be guilty .''" — I reject the doctrine with great abhorrence. 416 DR. MURRAY EXAMI-NED. Will you be good enough to describe to the Committee, the nature of Heresy, according to the doctrine of the Roman Catho- lic church ? — The obstinate belief of error which has been con- demned by the Catholic church, is called Heresy ; any contuma- cious error in faith, any obstinate denial of an article of the Catholic faith, is called Heresy in the ecclesiastical sense of the word ; we at present use the word heretic very sparingly ; we choose rather, as it is an offensive word, to say, " ovu- dissenting brethren," or " our separated brethren,"" or something of that kind ; the original import of the word heretic, is merely a chooser of his own religion. Is it a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that there is no salvation for heretics ? — The doctrine of the Catholic chui'ch, in that respect, is very much the doctrine of the Established church, and that of every other Christian society, who hold that man owes to God the homage of his understanding as well as that of his will, and that therefore we are as much bound to beheve the things He has revealed, as to do the things He has ordered ; and therefore any one who, through his own fault, does not submit to the faith which God has revealed, and ordered to be believed, we consider as a sinner, like any other sinner, and, of course, to be treated as such ; it is our belief with regard to ourselves, as it is the belief of the members of the Established church with regard to them, that ours is the Faith revealed by Christ, and ordered to be believed ; that faith, respecting which he has himself said, " He who shall not believe, shall be condemned." We wish all mankind to be saved, but we are not to make a religion according to our own wishes ; we must submit to the decrees of Providence, that has arranged it otherwise; and since the Gospel of Christ requires faith, as an essential requisite for salvation, we must bow with reverence to that decree ; we cannot make a Gospel through a mistaken liberality, and lead people into error, by telling them they are safe in choosing a religion for themselves, such as may appear best to them, except they employ the usual means to arrive at a knowledge of that faith which God requires of them. With respect to Protestants, however, I must say this : we do not hold that all who are not united externally to the Catholic church, are to be lost ; we even hope that many who are attached to other bodies of Christians, may (not having a sufficient oppor- tunity of becoming acquainted Avith the true Faith) be treated vv^ith mercy before the Supreme Judge. All Protestants who are baptized, become, by the very act of their baptism, members of the Church of Christ, children of God, and heirs of everlasting life ; and if they die at any period before they lose that inno- cence which is restored to them in baptism, and their consequent title to heaven, they will of course obtain that immortal kingdom. DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 417 At what period they may lose that title, or whether they lose it at all, it is not for us to judge ; it is the business of God, who sees into the secrets of hearts, and A\'ho knows the opportunities which each individual has to arrive at a knowledge of the Faith which He has revealed, and who will judge His creatures with mercy. A person baptized, growing up in ignorance of what we consider the true faith, and without the means of arriving at it, if he do not commit any other grievous sin to exclude him from heaven, will reach the glory of God's kingdom with as much certainty as any one externally united to our body ; that is our belief with regard to external unions. We hold, that faith is necessary to salvation, because God has so declared it ; He has declared, that they who do not believe, shall be condemned. With regard to individuals, we pronounce no judgment, because it is He alone who can decide upon the sentiments of a man's heart. I beg to add with regard to Protestants in particular, that in their infancy they are rendered, by baptism, heirs to everlasting life ; and that nothing can deprive them of the title thus received, to the inheritance of heaven, but some actual sin ; whether that be the sin of refusing, through their own fault, to accept the faith that God has revealed or any other actual sin. I believe the Protestant church teaches something hke that in its 18th Article, which pronounces them accursed, who will say, " that every man shall be saved by the law or sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that law, and the light of nature;" and in the 8th Article, it adopts the three creeds, one of which is the Athanasian, in which the doctrine of exclusive salvation is very distinctly marked. Can you state the actual sin by which a person, once baptized, loses his title to heaven ? — Any grievous transgression of the law of God, whethei- it be a violation of faith or of morals. The Committee find, in the abstract of the Douay Catechism, a question is asked, " What is necessary to save a man.'''' the first thing answered is, " Faith .^■" — St. Paul gave the answer before, when he said, " Without faith, it is impossible to please God." Then the next question that follows, is, " What is the opposite of this Faith.?" which is followed by the answer, " Heresy;" the Committee would hke to know, if possible, the nature of that heresy which is the opposite of saving faith, according to the question in the abstract of the Douay Catechism .? — Any obstinate error in matters of faith, is called heresy ; any culpable and obstinate error in matters of faith . Is not the non-participation of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church, coiisidei-ed heresv "^ — When that non-participa- tion is culpable, which God only can know. 2 E 418 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. Does not Calvin write as follows, in the 64th Institute, chapter tlie 1st, " Extra ecclesice gremium nulla est sjieranda peccato- rum remissio nee ulla salus?" — I think he does. Is not the same doctrine taught in the profession of faith of Strasburgh, presented to Charles the Fifth, in 1530 ? — It is taught by most Christian societies. In that of Switzerland in the year 1566, in tliat of the Low Countries, and in that of Scotland in 1647 ? — It is so. What do you consider to be the temporal punishment of sin ? — The temporal punishment of sin may be either in this Avorld or in the next ; if it be in this Avoi'ld, it may be any temporal visitation from God, or any voluntary infliction of penance by fasting and prayer, and self-denial ; and if it be in the world to come, we hold that it is in a middle place, which is neither heaven nor hell ; a kind of punishment known only to God, inflicted until the last remnant due to his justice, is purged away. The temporary punishment of sins in this world, are sicknesses and infirmities ? — Any means that God may think proper to em- ploy to punish his creatures, or any austerities that the penitent himself may, in the spirit of penance, practise. Can a priest of the Roman Catholic church, by granting an Indulgence, or by withholding an Indulgence, avert or accelerate the wrath of God, as far as the temporary penalty of sin is con- cerned ? — As far as the temporary punishment of sin is concerned, the authorities of the Church can do so by the power intrusted to them by God. The grant of an Indulgence is accompanied, as a condition for obtaining it, by an injunction to perform some act of piety ; it is a change of punishment from one species of austerity to another more suitable to human infirmity, a kind of commutation, which commutation is admitted in the canons of the Protestant church ; it is admitted, and laid down in Burn's Eccle- siastical Law, that there are such things as commutations of penance in the Protestant church. Can a priest of the Koman Catholic church, by granting or withholding an Indulgence, accelerate the course of a departed soul through Purgatory, or retard it ? — It is our belief, that prayers in this world are of use to accelerate the passage of the soul in purgatory to future bliss ; Indulgences, however, cannot reach beyond the present life, except as far as God may be pleased, through the merits of Christ, to accept our prayers for the release of the sold in purgatory ; the Church has no power, by right, to grant an Indulgence for the relief of souls in purgatory, except by way of sufliage or prayer ; but our prayers, offered through Christ for that pvu'pose, are considered to be efficacious, in such a degree as is known only to God. Is it the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the most DR, MURRAY EXAMI^^ED. 419 undivided allegiance is due to the King, in temporal matters ? — It is. Is it the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the same undivided allegiance is due to the Pope, in spiritual matters ?— It is ; that allegiance which is due to him as spiritual head, and which is limited by the canons. That is the definition you would give to the limit of the alle- giance due to the Pope ? — Certainly. According to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, mar- riage is a sacrament ? — It is. Marriage also, the Committee suppose, according to the doe- trine of the church, partakes of a civil contract .'' — It is also a civil contract. There are certain degrees of affinity, within which it is not allowed hy the principles of the Roman Catholic religion for par- ties to marry ; but suppose parties do marry within those degrees^ is that marriage void, according to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church ? — If within the prohibited degrees, it is void. Would the circumstances of that voidance entail penalties upon the parties in civil matters ? — By no means ; the issue of that marriage would inherit in the same way as if the marriage were wholly vahd, because it is the law that decides that the marriage retains all these civil effects that the law gives it. Would the children be legitimate ? — In point of law as heirs. . In an ecclesiastical sense, they would not be legitimate ? — They would not be legitimate. Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee the penalties, in the ecclesiastical sense, which parties so marrying within the prohibited degrees, would be subjected to? — They would be subject to no penalties, that I at present recollect, except the refusal of the administration of the sacrament, as persons living in the guilt of sin. Supposing a child of such a marriage wished to become a mem- ber of the Roman Catholic ministry, would there be any objection to instituting him to the order of priesthood ? — There would be an objection, which would prevent his taking orders in our church. Is there any power to dispense with such penalties? — There is; the Pope possesses that power. Does a bishop of the Roman Catholic church possess it ?— Bishops do not exercise that power in the Roman Catholic church. But under no circumstances, would the children of such mar- riage be subject to civil penalties? — No civil penalty whatever. Should you, as a prelate of the Catholic church, consider the issue of such marriage as legitimate heirs to the property of the parents ?-r.Most certainly. S E 2 420 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. With respect, to any of the sentences of our courts, either of civil or ecclesiastical jurisdiction, would you consider that, ac- cording to the doctrine of your church, any coactive step could be taken to resist those sentences, or to interfere with them ? — I am not aware that any coactive step could be taken, except those sentences should go, for instance, to dissolve the marriage, which we, in our church, hold to be vahd, we would refuse the parties the sacraments of our church. As to any civil measure ? — By no means. In short, where the law of your church differs from the law of our church, your sanctions are merely of a spiritual nature ? — Merely spiritual. In case of divorce, the Roman Catholic church does not allow of breaking the matrimonial chain ? — No ; our doctrine is, that what God has joined together, man cannot separate ; and when once the tie of matrimony is formed, it is only death can dis- solve it. Suppose parties are divorced by a decree of the civil court, and that either of the parties afterwards wishes for to marry, and makes application to a priest of the Roman Catholic church to jnarry them, will that priest refuse ? — Certainly. Then if a divorce once takes place, neither of the parties can by possibility enter into the state of marriage ? — Neither could con- scientiously enter into the state of marriage ; but they can legally, and that marriage would have the same legal effect as a marriage formed with what we call impediments, that is, within the pro- hibited degrees. Still it would be the duty of every Cathohc priest to refuse to perform the ceremony of that marriage ? — Certainly. Has the Pope a power of dispensing with that part of the dis- cipline.? — By no means; we consider that as decided by the law of God, and the Pope can never dispense with the law of God. There is a vulgar error, that the kingdom of Ireland is a fief of the popedom; is there any foundation for that assertion.? — It has no foundation Avhatever ; it is annexed, and I hope inseparably annexed to Great Britain. You take a distinction with respect to the differences between the decisions of our ecclesiastical courts and yours, between that class of them which arise from the interpretation of the sense of scripture, iind that class of them which arise from a difference between the law of which you judge of the rules of consanguinity.? Just so ; tlie one is merely the law of the church, which the head of tlie church can dispense with ; the other we contend to be ihe law of God, which no earthly power can dispense with. That law of God, no earthly power can dispense with, is de- rived from your interpretation of scripture .? — Yes. DR. MUREAY EXAMINED. 421 You do not conceive that the Pope has any authority to over- rule your sense of the true interpretation of scripture ?— Just so. Supposing Catholic Emancipation was carried, should you see any objection to government allowing a stipend to the Catholic priesthood in Ireland ?— In the event of Catholic Emancipation being carried, and this arrangement being made a part of the final settlement of the country, I would not see any material ob- jection to the Catholic clergy receiving a stipend. Should you see any objection to it, supposing CathoHc Eman- cipation was not carried? — Very great objection. I do not think it would be acceptable, either to the people or the clergy. Supposing such a stipend was agreed upon and granted, under what circumstances should you think that the Catholic clergy would have a claim upon it.? — I suppose that the law would regulate the claim they should have ; and that it should not be revocable at will, but given, on the one hand, so as to preserve the independence of our church, and on the other, to preserve that degree of subordination which should subsist between the inferior clergy and the prelates of the church. Should you think it ought to be attached to the different bene- fices, or given to the individuals ? — I think that would be a matter quite of regulation, to which I have not finally made up^.my mind. Should you conceive there would be any objection to a certi- ficate of loyalty being required, before such allowance was paid to a clergyman ? — Certainly not, if that certificate were to come from the authorities of our church ; I think it would be a useful thing to have that certificate of loyalty. Do 'you conceive there would be any objection to securing the domestic nomination of the bishops in the Roman Catholic church in Ireland ? — I do not conceive there would be any objection to it ; I think rather it would be an advantage. In whom is the nomination now vested? — At present it is vested in the Pope ; but he does not exercise it, except at the recommendation of some portion of the Irish clergy. Should you think it an objectionable measure, to prevent any foreigner from being appointed to a see in the Catholic church in Ireland ? — By no means. Would you extend that to all benefices in the CathoUc church ? — To all benefices. Should you conceive there to be any objection to the Crown having a power of interfering in any way, directly or indirectly, in the change of the lower clergy from one benefice to another ? — I would conceive that such interference would be liable to great objections. You would not conceive there would be any objection, on the 422 DR. MUREAY EXAMINED. members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy being promoted from one rank to another, that the same certificate of loyalty and do- mestic nomination should accompany the change Avhich accom- panied the first appointment ? — I think it would not be liable to any objection. Do you think there would be any objection to letting the State have perfect assurance, that the person to be appointed or pro- moted in the Roman Catholic church, had not been educated out of foreign funds, or out of funds at the disposal of a foreign govern- ment ? — I do not think it would be liable to any serious objection. I should not like to give vip wholly the foreign education, because it is calculated to excite a kind of emulation which I think useful. The question does not apply to foreign education, but to edu- cation provided at the expense of foreign states ? — I know there are some funds of that kind at present applied. I am not aware that any bad consequences follow from the education received from them ; for instance, 1 was myself educated upon a foreign fund in Spain, and that fund was wholly under the control of the King of Spain. If it should be thought advisable, for the security of the State, that that practice should cease, and if an equivalent were given in this country out of domestic funds, do you think there w6uld be any objection to a perfect assurance being given, that parties to be appointed or promoted in the Catholic church, should not have been educated or supported out of any such foreign fund ? — I am sure there would not. Are there not at present some funds that were originally cre- ated by gifts of Irish families, that are at present subsisting in France, and claimed to be under the control of the government of France ? — There are. To what extent do you suppose those funds may go ? — I can- not exactly say, but possibly about an annual income of 70,000 francs. About 3000/. a year .?— Yes. Have you any reason to believe, that the French government, or any persons acting under their authority, have latterly been expressing any interest about that fund .? — No, on the contrary, the present king is giving more power over that fund to the people in this country than was given before ; he has appointed a president at the recommendation of the clergy of this country. Do they claim to keep up an intercourse with Ireland, with respect to the management of this fund.^ — I do not think they claim a right to keep up an intercourse, or that they express a wish so to do ; they consider these funds to be placed under their guardianship, and they do not allow them to be removed from France ; they continue under their trusteeship ; but latterly they DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 423 have given us a great degree of power over them ; they have ap- pointed a president, who is at the same time administrator of them, an Irishman, a person recommended by us. Necessarily in the administration of them, as they are at present constituted, there must be some intercourse with respect to them, kept up between Ireland and France ? — This administrator must of course return his accounts to the French ministry. They allow the persons to receive the benefit of the fund, to be selected at home.'* — They have no claim whatever with reference to the selection ; there are certain families, who originally formed the fund, and the representatives of those families, in some in- stances, retain still the right ; and in other instances the right is devolved upon the bishops ; and when once a person goes regu- larly presented from the competent authority here, he is admitted on the fund without any further hindrance. Then all that they claim is, that the fund shovild continue in France .? — Should continue, and be administered, of course, under their control ; till latterly, they exercised a very tyrannical power over these funds ; they appointed a bureau graiuit ; and this bureau managed, or rather mismanaged, those funds very much ; but at present there seems a better disposition, and they seem more inclined to do justice. If it should be thought expedient for the public safety, that that fund should be put an end to, and that an equivalent fund, entirely domestic, should be given for the same object; you think there would be no objection to give an assurance on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, that the persons hereafter to be appointed, should be educated exclusively out of domestic funds .'' — I cannot see the least ground for refusing to give such an assurance. The Catholic priests are now paid by voluntary monies raised amongst their flocks.'* — Yes. If a stipend was regularly paid them by the government, under certain regulations, in case of the question of Catholic • Eman- cipation being granted, are you of opinion, that the Catholic priesthood would give up their claim to those fees now paid by their flocks ? — I think there are certain fees, established by long usage, that they would feel a reluctance to give up, which are received by the ministers of almost every chvuxh, on marriages and burial services, and christenings ; but the other voluntary offerings which are given, they certainly would give up without any hesitation. Easter and Christmas offerings? — Easter and Clnistmas of- ferings. Are there not fees called confessional fees, paid to the priests f —They are not, properly speaking, confessional fees ; but some^ DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. times when the people assemble at what is called a station in the country, for the purpose of making confession, they take the opportunity which is afforded by that, to contribute their of- ferings. Are those part of the fees Avhich you think would be given up by the Catholic clergy ? — Certainly. The fees on baptism, marriage, and burial, do not come within the description of fees that you think the clergy would be willing to give up ? — I think not. Do you know what the proportion of fees arising from baptism, marriage and burial may be, in respect to the proportion of fees arising from other sources ? — I really cannot form a judgment ; but they are considerably inferior to the other fees. Would those fees upon baptism, marriage, and burial, be decreased, if a general stipend was paid to the clergy? — It is very likely that they would be much decreased. Are you of opinion, that there would be any objection in prin- ciple, to the priesthood giving up the receipt of those particular fees; or do you think the amount of those fees is the greater ob- ject of consideration ? — I think the principle being so long esta- blished, and such a universal usage, would not be relincj[uished without some feeling. It is the principle then, and not the amount of fees paid for those particular purposes, that would be the object ? — Yes ; be- cause the amount is less than those Avhich they Avould be willing to give up. Supposing a Roman Catholic priest refused to perform the ceremony of baptism or burial, because the fee was not paid, should he not be subject to some penalty ? — He would undoubt- edly be punished, and very justly, by his own superior, by the bishop of the diocese, if a complaint were lodged against him. Do not you think that a Roman Catholic priest should be bound to perform those ceremonies, without the payment of those fees ? — He is conscientiously bound to perform them. You would leave the payment of fees to the feeling of gratitude, and the feeling of good will that exists between the clergyman and his parishioners.^ — Just so. Do different classes of persons, according to their cuxumstances, pay a different amount of fees ? — They do. Is there any class from Avhom no fees at all are expected .'' — The poorer classes are attended without any fee, when they have not Avherewith to make that usual offering which is expected. Will you state the amount of the different classes of fees paid by different persons ? — It would not be possible ; it varies ac- cording to places and circumstances, and according to the dis- position of the people ; and that is matter of feeling. DU. MURRAY EXAMINED. 425 In the case of a stipend being given to the Cathohc clergy, Avould that class which pays no fees at all now, be extended much further ? — I think it would ; and I think those that do pay, would pay a much smaller sum. What power have the Catholic clergy to enforce the payment of those fees ? — No power but pubhc opinion, and a claim upon the gratitude of the people, which is generally met. Have they any ecclesiastical power ? — No ; they have no eccle- siastical power ; they cannot inflict a censure without the autho- rity of the bishop, and the bishop would never give his authority for purposes of that kind. You stated, that in your opinion, it Avould not be proper for the Crown to have any direct or indirect interference in the ap- pointment of the Catholic clergy ? — I think it would not be useful either to the Crown or to us. I apprehend, that we could serve the Crown much better by being left independent of it, excepting indeed that necessary dependence which all authorities of the state have. Does this objection depend upon your religious opinions, or upon political feeling ? — Upon both ; upon religious opinions principally. I say, as far as I am concerned, wholly religious opinions, because it is our duty to serve the people, and to serve government ; I think we could do that more effectually, by being left as much as possible to ourselves, without the interference of government. Do you consider there is any thing contrary to the discipline of the Catholic church, in such an interference of the government? — I think it would be injurious to the discipHne of the Cathohc church ; and I do not know that it is recognised in a Protestant government any where. Supposing that by a treaty with the Pope, he was to admit of such an interference, in your opinion would the Cathohc bishops in Ireland submit to it ? — I think they would object to it, if that interference were to be in a material degree. Would they think that the Pope exceeded his power, in making such an agreement ? — Not his power certainly ; but they would consider him as outstepping the limits of prudence and wisdom, and disci'etion. Would they feel themselves justified, in consequence of that, in objecting to such a treaty .?--They certainly would. Would there be any objection in your mind, to the government naming a commission, consisting of prelates of the Ronlan Ca- tholic church, through whom the loyalty and the domestic nomi- nation and education of die several functionaries should be cer- tified to them.? — Not the least objection; we should be most anxious to have an opportunity of certifying to government, the 4fS6 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. loyalty of every one who is employed as a functionary of our church. Allowing the government to name the commission through ■whom that should be certified? — Certainly. Would it be necessary for the Catholic prelates to obtain the consent of the Pope, previous to their engaging their co-operation in such an arrangement as to domestic nomination.? — No, it would not; because the Pope has already signified his readiness to acquiesce in it. When did the Pope signify his readiness to acquiesce in it .'' — About ten years ago. Supposing the Pope was to agree to any thing, which in the opinion of the Catholic prelates in Ireland exceeded his authority, what would be the conduct of the Catholic prelates, in such a case.' — If Ave thought he exceeded his authority, we would of course deem ourselves at liberty not to acquiesce in his decisions. Is the authority of the Pope defined in such a manner, that it would be easy for the Catholic prelates to decide, whether he exceeded his authority or not .?--I think it would. Would there be any objection on the part of the Roman Ca- tholic clergy, to submit their bulls and briefs, and other docu- ments from the Pope, to the inspection of government, before they were transmitted to the authorities to which they were directed ? — If Ave look at the substance of those communications, I do not find there Avould be any great difficulty ; but I Avould find a great difficulty in submitting the private communication of any gentleman to another, without his consent ; I think it Avould not be authorized. Are those private communications the subject of briefs or rescripts from the Pope ? — Every brief or rescript is of course a private communication, a communication from one gentleman to another ; and I Avould not think myself authorized to show any gentleman's letter to another, Avithout his consent. Supposing the Pope consented to such an arrangement, should you see any objection to it then ? — Not the least. Your objection is rather on the principle of good manners, than of any religious feeling.? — The communications with the Pope, are wholly of a spiritual nature ; there are some confidential communications regarding the consciences of individuals, and it would not perhaps be right, that those communications should pass into other hands than those immediately concerned. You would make an objection to submit those spiritual com- munications to any lay tribunal ? — Yes. Or perhaps to any tribunal that was not of yoiu* own per- suasion ? — Certainly . Could there be any objection to submitting this communication DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 427 to a commission of your own bishops, to be named by the CroA^-n, in the manner before-mentioned ? — I do not see that there could be any objection to it, provided the Pope consented that his com- munications should be so submitted; and I think, even with respect to the objection founded on the rights of individuals, it might be done in such a way, as that the particular person should not be marked out; A. B. or C D. would be a sufficient mark to dis- tinguish the individual for whom the matter was intended, with- out communicating his name. Would the prelates of your church object, that the spiritual communications that are made from the Pope to these countries, should, in the first instance, pass through the hands of that com- mission of your own prelates, and that they should exercise their discretion upon them ? — I think there might be instances where one might feel an objection to allow a communication on a con- fessional case, to go into any other hands than those of the parties concerned ; at the same time, I think it might be so regulated, as to conceal the name of the person by letters, or something of that sort. Does not that restriction exist in Protestant kingdoms, for in- stance, in the kingdom of Prussia, and in the kingdom of the Netherlands ? — It does, and in Catholic kingdoms too ; sometimes by virtue of a concordat with the Pope himself ; then he abandons his own right, and we cannot object to it; if he chooses to do it, we should most readily acquiesce in it. You have stated, that you think there would be no objection on the part of the Roman Catholic prelates, to preventing fo- reigners being appointed to benefices and dignities in the Roman Catholic church in Ireland ? — There is not the least likelihood that such an attempt would be made ; and we should be glad that a law were enacted, to prevent the introduction of such per- sons ; it is merely a case that we contemplate as barely possible. Could a law of that kind be passed, without an agreement with the Pope, before-hand ? — Certainly ; the law can exclude any one whom it considers dangerous to the country; as it excludes aliens, it could exclude those foreign persons from exercising any function within this realm ; and such a law would excite no kind of feeling of dissatisfaction in the Catholic population. What would be the situation of the country, if such a law were passed, and the Pope were to institute such a person ? — He never would institute such a person ; he would not be so unwise as to enter into collision with the law of the country. Is the present Pope bound by the opinions of the last ? — He considers himself bound by the decisions of the last. Is the willingness which the late Pope expressed to come into an arrangement for domestic nomination such a decision as you have mentioned.? — It is such a decision as I have mentioned. 428 DR. MURRAY EXAMIKED. Such a decision as would make you feel yourself authorized in assenting to an arrangement of that kind ? — Certainly a decision binding in honour, not having been recalled, he is bovmd by it in the same way as a subsequent government in this country, would be bound by the acts of the preceding government. Are you aware whether the Catholic prelates in Ireland con- sider themselves sufficiently authorized by that decision, to co- operate in an arrangement of that sort, without further application to the Holy See ?— They do. Do you remember the rescript of a person called Quarantotti ? — Perfectly well. Did not the Roman Catholic prelates protest against that rescript ? — Very earnestly. On what ground ? — On the ground that it allowed a certain interference in the appointment of the Catholic bishops in Ireland, which interference they thought would be injurious to the C'a- iholic religion. That rescript acknowledged the principle of a royal veto .'' — It did. It went no further? — And also the principle of inspecting correspondence. What they objected to was giving the Crown a veto? — Yes. Did they consider that as coming from the Pope himself, or only from Quarantotti ? — Only from Quarantotti, and a very limited council, which was left under the dominion of the French authorities in Rome. He was a very weak old man, and he had himself incurred the displeasure of the Pope during his captivity, by having taken an oath of allegiance to the French authorities, always guarding, however, as he thought, his allegiance to the Pope. However, it was still such as to incur the displeasvire of the Pope, and the latter would not for some time admit him into his presence. Had that rescript come from Pius the Seventh himself, would the Roman Catholic prelates have equally protested against it ? — Most certainly. Would they have protested against it on the ground that the Pope had exceeded his power ? — On the grovmd that he had ex- ceeded the hmits of prudence and discretion, that he was not sufficiently acquainted with the circumstances of our country ; and of course that we could not conscientiously help submitting this fact, and reminding him of the danger to which he exposed our religion. Would you have protested against it, on the ground that he had exceeded the power vested in him, as the successor of St. Peter ?— No. They would not protest against it, on the principle that he had done any thing contrary to the discipline of the church; but, thali DR. MURRAY EXAMINETj. 499 considering the situation of the Catliohc church in Ireland, what he had done was opposed to the interest of the church ? — That it was contrary to our disciphne. Not contrary to the fundamental principles of the Catholic church ? — You may say there is no fundamental discipline of that kind, because that discipline may be changed. Are you aware whether there has or not been any arrangement made in other countries, in which Protestant sovereigns have exercised a power equal or similar to that which it was proposed by that rescript to convey to the King of England ? — I am not aware that there are any such powers in the hands of any Pro- testant sovereign. Is there a power of nomination vested in any Protestant sove- reign ? — There is no power of nomination recognised in any Pro- testant sovereign. Are you aware how it stands in the kingdom of Prussia ? — • I am. Will you have the goodness to state that.? — At present, in virtue of a concordat which was established a very few years ago, the nomination is vested in the Catholic chapters of Prussia ; and the king of Prussia has given an endowment or establishment to the clergy. Is there no right of interference.'^ — No right of interference, that I am aware of; I have seen the decree. He has no privilege of a veto ? — None, that I am aware of. Has the emperor of Russia any such right ? — He has not ; but the emperor of Russia being the head of a despotic government, recommends a certain individual to the Pope ; and the Pope, that the Catholics of that country may not be persecuted, if he finds no canoncial objection to the individual, appoints that individual of his own authority, without any reference whatever to the recommendation of the emperor ; he studiously avoids saying that such a person had ever been presented ; in the fulness of his own authority he appoints him ; but he is pleased to appoint the per- son so presented, if he feels no objection to him. It was the same in the kingdom of Prussia, before the concordat which I have just mentioned. The king of Prussia named a certain indi- vidual; the character and qualities of that individual were ex- amined into; if the Pope saw no difficulty, he appointed him ; but he made the nomination in the fulness of his own power, without any reference to the presentation. In those cases it is a species of compromise between the court of Rome and the courts of Prussia and of Russia ? — Just so ; the Pope does not wish to enter into collision with those sovereigns, and he therefore allows it to go on in that way. 430 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. Has the King of Prussia any thing resembhng a conge d'elire, in the appointment to the chapters ? — Not that I am aware of. Do you think it would be injurious to the Cathohc church, if he had one ? — It would be perhaps less injurious than in some other countries, because Silesia, the country chiefly in question, is principally CathoUc, and not distracted by party feeling ; that is quite a matter of prudence, to be regulated according to the circumstances of the place. Supposing what is called Catholic Emancipation were passed, and that a provision were made for the Roman Catholic clergy ; and that, in consequence of that provision, the Pope was to grant to the King of England the power of appointing the bishops of the Roman Catholic church, would the Roman Catholic prelates consent to that ? — I do not think they would ; and I am quite certain that the Pope Avould not grant, to any Protestant sove- reign whatever, a power of direct nomination. Are you aware that the King of Prussia has actually appointed to the Bishoprics of Culm and Posen ? — I am quite aware that his recommendation has been attended to, but on the principle I have just mentioned, disailowing the right of the King of Prussia to nominate ; but still the individual recommended, has been in general named by the Pope from his own authority, without alluding, in the bull of appointment, to the presentation that was made : that system has been changed, the nomination is now vested in the chapters. But suppose the Pope did make such a concession to the king of this empire, what would be the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, under such circumstances ? — I cannot say what would be their conduct, but I think it would excite a very painful sensation, and might lead to very disastrous conse- quences ; but I think it is almost an impossible case. It has never occurred that such concordat has been entered into by the Pope with any Protestant prince. Does it enter into your mind, as a part of Catholic Eman- cipation, that the Roman Catholic bishops should take their seats in the House of Lords ? — By no means ; the bishops of the Established church take their seats in the House of Lords, as barons, which dignity they have from the Crown ; we can have no claim to such a dignity. Have you any reason to think, that in the minds of any part of the Roman Catholic clergy, there exists any hope or any wish to interfere with the temporal possessions of the Established church ? — Not the least ; there is no wish, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, to disturb the present establishment, or to par- take of any part of the wealth that it enjoys. DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 431 Nor any objection to give the most full and entire assurance on that subject, by any declaration that may be required of them ? — Not the least. Do not you think, that if there was an establishment for the Roman Catholic clergy provided by the State, that would afford an argument to those who object, that they being Catholics, should pay for the Protestant clergy, as Protestants might then say, We Avho are Protestants, pay for the Catholic clergy ? — I think that would be a very powerful argument. Though the Catholic clergy of Ireland might not wish to in- terfere with the property of the Protestant church, is it not a general feeling among the Catholics, and general indeed amongst a great many of the Protestant communion also, that the esta- blishment of the church of Ireland should be very much cur- tailed ; that there shovdd be a new modelling of it ? — It is a general feeling, among Catholics as well as Protestants, that the establishment is unnecessarily rich ; but I do not observe any feeling in Catholics as Catholics, to exert themselves for its cur- tailment, more than Protestants. That feeling is rather an opinion of political economy, than a religious feeling ? — Exactly so ; as religionists they have no par- ticular feeling. Is it not their disposition to leave the matter entirely with the jislature ? — Yes. Do not the Catholics complain very much of the obligation of paying tithes to Protestant clergymen .'' — They complain in common with Protestants, and they have this additional ground of complaint, that they receive no service for it. Is not that urged as a very strong and very general ai'gument, against the establishment and continuance of tithes in Ireland ? — It is a complaint, that they have to pay two churches, from one of which they derive no retm'n. According to an idea thrown out, in a question which has been put to me, it would seem, that in the event of emancipation, they Avould not have to pay from their own pockets exclusively, their own clergy, and of course then there would be a greater disposition to bear with patience the burden of supporting the Protestant clergy. Have not the disturbances on the subject of tithes in Ireland, which have been very numerous indeed, and existing from a very remote period, prevailed more generally in Catholic countries, than in those counties where Protestants Avere more numerous ? — I believe they have, but I do not feel myself very competent to answer the question, for I am not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of those disturbances, or the causes from which they arose. As far as you are acquainted with them, do you not believe that the disturbances with respect to tithes, have chiefly taken 432 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. place in those parts of Ireland where the tithe of potatoes was collected? — I understand so. I am not myself particularly acquainted with any part of Ireland where those disturbances nave taken place. Is not the tithe upon potatoes the greatest cause of dissatis- faction connected with the tithe system? — So I have heard; because that is a tithe levied off' the poorest classes of the com- munity. Then in the event of disturbances with respect to tithe, having taken place in particular counties in Ireland, do you connect those disturbances with the circumstance of the inhabitants of those counties being Catholics, or with the circumstance that in those counties, the tithe of potatoes was claimed? — I think it more likely that they arose from the nature of the tithe, and from tlie manner of collecting it. Have not jrou found, or have not you collected from your observation, that the insurrections in different parts of the south and west of Ireland, have been directed, as much against the payment of dues to the Roman Catholic clergy, as against the payment of tithe to the Protestant ? — They have often been so directed against the dues paid to the CathoHc clergy, as well as against the tithes paid to the Pi-otestant clergy. Are there not lay impropriators in Ireland, who receive tithes as well as the clergy ? — I understand so. In that case, is any return made to the persons paying ? — No return. Do you suppose, that if the legislature chose to take away tithe from the clergy of the Established church, and to pay them in any other way, that they would make a present of the tithe to the land owners ? — I do not know what the legislature might be inclined to do under those circumstances, but I believe the people feel as great an indisposition to pay tithe to a lay impropriator, as to an ecclesiastic. Are they not sensible, that it is a burden upon the property which they hold, whether it is paid to the church or to the laity ? — Yes. Do not you think that the Protestant clergy find as much difficulty in getting the tithe from Protestant parishioners, as from Roman Catholic parishioners ? — I have heard so, and very often more difficulty. Why would you say, more difficulty ? — From their being more able to resist. You have not found, so far as your observation, or any thing you have heard, lead you to form an opinion, that a resistance to tlie payment of tithe, prevails more amongst Roman Cadiolic parishioners, than amongst Protestant parishioners ? — No, I do DT?. MURRAY EXAMINED. 433 not; but it is a subject I am not acquainted with, from my having chiefly resided in Dubhn. From what you have understood of the state of the disturbed districts, do you not suppose that the disturbances there pro- ceeded from the general condition of the peasantry, and from other circumstances not connected with the profession of the Roman Cathohc faith ? — I beheve, from, their extreme poverty, which made them feel the pressure of those things more than elsewhere ; but I am not sufficiently acquainted with those parts of the country where disturbances took place. Do you think that what is called Catholic Emancipation would at all reconcile the peasantry and farmers of Ireland to the pay- ment of tithes? — I tliink it would diminish their repugnance to it. Do you think it would make them more satisfied under those burdens, than they are at present.'* — I am certain it would remove a great source of discontent, and put them of course in a better temper, and induce them to acquiesce more readily in all the burdens the State imposes on them. Is not that feeling of discontent connected in some degree with the disturbances which have taken place ? — I fancy it is. Are you at all acquainted with the operation of tlie Tithe composition Bill ? — Not at all ; I have heard that where it has been carried into operation, the effect has been favourable ; but I am not personally acquainted with any case in which it has been carried into effect. Have you heard that it has had the effect of removing the pressure from the small holders of land who paid the titlie of potato, to a general burden upon all the land ? — I have heard so, that it divides the burden more equally, and relieves the poorer classes. Have you formed any opinion as to the operation of the law with respect to Church Rates in Ireland ? — I have had no oppor- tunity of forming an opinion upon that subject. Have you heard any complaints made by the poorer classes, of the burden which is imposed upon them, of repairing the churches of the Estabhshed religion ? — I have heard that there were complaints of that nature, particularly where there were very few Protestants, and where the chief burden was to be borne by Roman Catholics. Has that been the cause of disturbances in any part of the country ? — I am not aware whether it has or not. Upon subjects of that nature, your constant residence in Dublin disables you from giving to the Conunittee that opinion which you would otherwise be able to give, had you lived in the country .'' — It does. 2 F 434t DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. In the event of there existing any dissatisfaction with regard to tlie payment of church rates, that is, funds for building and repairing Protestant churches, do you not think that that dissa- tisfactioii would cease, if those rates, in place of being charged upon the occupying tenant, became in fact a charge upon the landlord and upon the rent ? — I think it is likely that it would. In case of Catholic Emancipation being carried, would you propose that the Catholics should be allowed to have processions ? — By no means. Public processions in the street, out of their places of worship, I would not think at all advisable in a country so mixed as ours is, where the different denominations are blended together, and where, of course, one description of per- sons might receive ground of offence, from those external cere- monies. You have heard that there have been great objections made against the Church Estabhshment in Ireland, particularly by Irishmen ; do you think that if a great attempt was made to new model the Church Establishment, not to take away its riches, but to allow them that wealth in a different way, that that at- tempt would be supported by the great body of the Catholics in Ireland ? — I am not aware that the great body of the CathoUcs would trouble themselves much about the manner in which it would be employed, provided that the pressui'e was to continue the same, and that it was to be levied in the same way. If there was an attempt made to relieve the peasantry of the payment of tithes, and to appropriate the landed property of the Church to the payment of bishops, deans, and clergy, and to the repair of the churches, and to the encouragement of education, and perhaps other purposes connected with church matters ; do you think there would be a general feeling among the Catholic population in Ireland, to join such a plan ? — I think there would be a general feeling amongst both Catholics and Protestants, to rejoice at any plan which would remove the people from unne- cessary burdens, or to employ the fund in such a way as would be of general service ; I do not think the Catholics are more par- ticularly interested in that, than the Protestants. Then the Committee are to understand you as saying, that it is the burden itself that is oppressive, and not the circumstance of the persons to whom it is paid ? — The burden. Do you think the Catholic population would exert themselves more strongly to get I'id of tithe, than they would of the burden of any other tax ? — I do not think they would. In any opinions you have heard respecting this question of Church reform, which has been pointed at in the latter part of your examination, can you state which you have found most eager and anxious upon the subject, the Protestants or the Ca- DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 485 tholics ? — I think the Protestants are equally anxious with the Catholics. Is not it your opinion, that any class of men, either Catholic or Protestant, in any country, if they found themselves pecu^ liarly aggrieved by any particular tax, would naturally be very glad to be relieved of that by any means the legislature of the country could possibly provide .'' — Most certainly. The Most Reverend Oliver Kelly, D.D. Titular Archbishop of Tuam, called in; and Examined. How many years have you been Roman Catholic Archbishop of Tuam ? — Since the year 1815. Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, the nature and origin of the authority of the Pope .? — -The Pope derives his authority from Jesus Christ. He is the successor of St. Peter, and holds the same rank in the church that St. Peter did among the Apostles ; he is the first bishop and head of the church, and enjoys a primacy, not only of honour, but also of jurisdiction. Is his authority disthictly defined ? — His authority is distinctly defined ; and besides the ordinary episcopal power, w^hich he enjoys in common with the other bishops, he has the authority of presiding over the universal church, and of governing it accord- ing to the canons. Does the obedience that is due by a Roman CathoHc to the Pope, detract from what is due by a Roman Catholic to the prince under whom he lives ? — Not in the slightest degree. Does it at all justify an objection that is made to Roman Ca- tholics, that their allegiance is divided ? — By no means. Is the duty that a Roman Catholic owes to the Pope, and the duty he owes to the King, really and substantially distinct ? — The duty which the Roman Catholic owes to the Pope, and that which he owes to the King under whom he hves, are really and sub- stantially distinct, inasmuch as they regard different matters. The duty which he owes the Pope, is confined to matters spiri- tual, and affecting ecclesiastical and religious matters. This duty is by no means incompatible or inconsistent with his social duties ; it does not clash in any manner whatsoever witli the civil allegiance which he owes to the King ; on the contrary, his bounden duty, as a Catholic, is to pay obedience and submission to tlie civil authorities. What do the principles of the Roman Catholic religion teacli, in respect of performing civil duties ? — The principles which the Roman CathoUc church teaches, with regard to civil duties, are, that subjects are to obey the King, and all those placed in au- 2 V 2 436 DR. KELLY EXAMINED. thority under him ; they are to be amenable to the laws of the land. Does the Pope, in point of fact, at present dispose of Temporal affairs within the kingdoms of any of the princes of the Conti- nent ? — -I am not aware that the Pope, at present, interferes in any degree in the temporal concerns of the princes of the Con- tinent. Has any Pope of late years, at all attempted to interfere in the temporal concerns of the States of Europe ? — I do not know that, of late years, any Pope has attempted to interfere in the temporal concerns of independent states. When the Pope did interfere in the temporal concerns of inde- pendent states, on what did he found his claim to such inter- ference ? — I should think, when he did interfere in temporal concerns, it was in consequence of concessions made to him by temporal princes themselves, and that it was in virtue of the power which he had received from them ; but I do not conceive that the Pope, at any period, in virtue of his authority as Pope, did interfere in any manner whatsoever with the temporal concerns of any state. Was it ever admitted as a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the Pope had any temporal juiisdiction out of the patrimony of St. Peter ? — It never was admitted as a doctrine of the universal church, that the Pope could exercise temporal ju- risdiction without the limits of his own territory; there may have been some individuals who held that opinion, but it never could be called or considered the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. In point of fact, was not that doctrine resisted by the north of Europe, whilst it was admitted by many persons in the southern countries of Europe ? — Most undoubtedly. And hence the difference between Transalpine and Cisalpine principles ? — The Transalpine and Cisalpine doctrines, in respect to the authority of the Pope, differ ; but what we call those doctrines, are doctrines held by individual divines of one country or the other. Does any such difference now exist in any part of Europe, with regard to temporal power ? — I am not aware that there is a Catholic divine in existence at present, vho holds the doctrine of the Pope having temporal power or authority over independent states. Do the Roman Catholic clergy insist, that all the bulls of the Pope are entitled to obedience ? — The Roman Catholic doctrine, in respect to bulls from the Pope, is, that they are always to be treated with respect ; but if those bulls or rescripts, proceeding from the Pope, do contain doctrines or matters which are not DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 437 compatible vnth the discipline of the particular churches to which they may be directed, they feel it their duty then to remonstrate respectfully, and not to receive the regulations that may be con- tained in the bull or rescript which may emanate from the Pope. Do Roman Catholics pray to Saints ? — Roman Catholics be- lieve that the blessed saints in heaven, replenished with charity, pray for us their fellow members here on earth. Roman Cathohcs iDelieve, that the saints, seeing God, they see and know in him all things suitable to their happy state ; that God may be inclined to hear requests made in our behalf by them, and to grant us many favours through their intercession. This manner of invocation is no more injurious to Christ, our Mediator, than it is for one Christian to beg the prayers of another in this world, as Saint Paul did. When Roman Catholics are said to pray to the Virgin Mary, what is the meaning of that expression ? — When they invoke the Virgin Mary, they do not consider that she can grant favours of herself, but that she may, through her powerful intercession, obtain favours from God for us. Do Roman Cathohcs pay veneration to Images and Relics ? — • Roman Cathohcs allow a certain veneration, or honour, to be given to relics, and to the images of Christ, and his saints who have departed this life in the odour of sanctity ; and they consider images useful, inasmuch as they may occasionally remind them of certain subjects and points of doctrine and religion, which may be most conducive to their spiritual welfare ; but they renounce all adoration and divine worship of images and pictures. The Almighty alone they worship and adore, and pictures are used to excite our thoughts to heavenly things. Do the Roman Catholics consider those images or rehcs a.s possessing sense or intelligence .'' — Not the least sense or intelli- gence ; and the honour or respect given to pictures and images, or relics of those pious persons who lived here on earth, has re- ference only to the character represented. They consider, that they may be useful in reminding them of circumstances connected with religious duties ? — Exactly so. Beyond that, they attach no importance to them ? — None. It is stated in a publication called A Protestant Catechism, showing the principal errors of the church of Rome, that " Ro- man Cathohcs pray to angels and saints, to intercede for them, and save them by their merits ;" is that a correct statement .'^— Not by any means; saints or angels cannot save us by their merits, except so far as they may be available in their intercession with the Divine Mediator. Do they invoke angels or saints, with the same spirit with which they invoke the interference of our Saviour ? — Not by any DR. KELLY EXAMINED. means; they address the Saviour as their Mediator, as their Lord, and as their God ; and they address the saints as the ser- vants or creatures of God, who have died in favour with Him. They can give them nothing of themselves, they only intercede with God for them. Would the Roman Catholics conceive, that any other mode of prayer to the saints, would be admitting another Mediator be- tween God and man, than the Redeemer ? — If they were to pray in any other manner to them, than for intercession, I should con- sider it an error, and that they would be asking of them what they had not the power to give. Would not praying to them to save them by their merits, be, in point of fact, admitting another Mediator between God and man, besides Jesus Christ ? — It would, if they thought the saints could save them by their own merits, without the mediation of Jesus Christ. There is in this same book, a question, '• What do you think of the frequent crossings, upon whiqh the Papists lay so great a stress in their divine offices, and for security against sickness and ill accidents ;" the answer is, " They are vain and superstitious. The worship of the crucifix or figure of Christ upon the cross, is idolatrous ; and the adoring and praying to the cross itself, is of all corruptions of the Popish worship, the most gi-oss and in- tolerable." Is it in point of fact, a part of the Roman Catholic practice, to worship the crucifix, or adore or pray to the cross .?— Roman Catholics renounce all divine worship, or adoration of the cross ; they use it as a memorial of the passion and death of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it reminds them of his sufferings and death for us ; but the crucifix, or the cross, has no intrinsic virtue or efficacy in it, more than any other inanimate substance; it is merely a memento to impress upon ovir minds, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and that it is through liim alone, that we can expect salvation. Is the respect and regard Avhich the Roman Catholics bear to such image or crucifix, of the same natiu-e as that which any other person might bear to a picture of a dear and absent friend.'* — Yes ; respectively so. Is there any worship in your church, of images, or of idols, or of relics .'' — There is no divine worship of images, of idols, or of relics, in our church; I have already stated the relative respect we entertain for certain images and relics. Then do not you conceive, according to your j udgraent, that the charge of idolatry which is brought against your church, is an unfounded charge.-^— I consider it as most unfounded, inas- much as we do not have recourse to those images, for any other purpose than what I have already mentioned ; they are. books for DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 439 the illiterate; by looking at the crucifix, they are reminded of the death and passion of our Lord ; further than that is not expected or desired. In this same catechism, there is upon the subject of Penance, a statement, that the sinner is allowed to get another person to do penance for him, and besides, the Pope grants indulgences, whereby he remits all penances, not only of sin past, but some- times such as shall be committed for a great number of years to come, or during a man's Avhole hfe ; and these indulgences, which cannot but be considered as licenses for sin, are pubhcly sold for money ; what would you wish to observe upon that statement ? — The doctrine of Indulgences in the Cathohq church, does not by any means imply the idea, that sin can be remitted by indulgences ; sin, according to the doctrine of the Roman CathoHc church, can never be forgiven, without a sincere and hearty sorrow, accompanied with a firm purpose and resolution of amending life ; and when the sinner so disposed, avails himself of the sacrament of penance, his sins are forgiven by sacramental absolution ; but indulgence in the Roman Catholic church, never meant the forgiveness of sin, or of the pain eternal due to it. Indulgence means the remission or relaxation of the temporal pu- nishment due to sin, after the eternal guilt and punishment had been previously remitted. Is there any instance of an indulgence being granted, for sins to be committed at a future period ? — There can be no indulgence for sins to be committed at a future period ; and there is no au- thority in the Catholic church, and there never did exist an authority in the Catholic church, which assumed to itself the power of giving leave or indulgence to commit sin at a future period. Are indulgences ever sold for money ? — I have never known an indulgence to be sold for money ; I have read in books, that have been written against the Catholic religion, that it was the practice in the Catholic church, to sell indulgences ; but this is a misrepresentation and a mis-statement of the doctrine of the Ca- tholic church ; in some instances, there may have been a commu- tation of temporal penances, and pious pecuniary contributions may have been substituted in heu of some other atonement. But if mistakes and abuses have been committed, in granting indul- gences, through the ignorance of particular persons, such abuses cannot be reasonably charged on the church, as it rejects and condemns those practices. Can that commutation be obtained in the present age ? — I am not aware how far it may be practised at present. Is the sinner allowed to get another person to do penance for DB. KELLY EXAMINEJD. him? — In the Catholic church, every sinner is required to do penance for himself. Is there any instance in which he can be allowed to get another person to do penance for him ? — He is at liberty to avail himself of the prayers, and the good works of others, in his behalf. Could that in any instance, excuse him from doing penance himself? — By no means. In the doctrine of penance in the Roman Catholic church, is there not included, besides the outAvard acts of penance, a contrite disposition of mind, and a resolute determination to avoid sin in future ? — In the Catholic church, we set no value upon the ex- ternal act of penance, unless it be accompanied by repentance ; imless in fact, it be accompanied by sorrow and contrition for sin, with a firm resolution not to relapse into it. Therefore to the doctrine of repentance, as distinguished from penance, there is superadded the outward mark, which the Ca- thoUc church has connected with that change of mind? — Ex- actly. What are the usual external marks of penance which are imposed, for example, in your diocese ? — They ai*e various ; fasting, prayer, alms deeds, and other good works. Are pilgrimages imposed as penance, pilgrimages to holy places, and the observance of duties at those places ? — In some instances, pilgrimages may be imposed as penances ; it is not a general practice. Are those pilgrimages, which the Catholic peasantry in Ireland are accustomed to fulfil, voluntary on their part, or commanded by some authority of their church ? — The pilgrimages they per- form in Ireland, generally speaking, are vokmtary. I have for- bidden performance at wells, not that I consider it evil in itself; but in consequence of the abuses, which I have known to arise from those performances, I have thought it prudent to endeavour to put a stop to them, and have in some degree succeeded. You say the church has the power of removing the temporal punishment of sin; by that you mean the penance enjoined? — Yes. Is that temporal punishment remitted by virtue of the indul- gence, or is it remitted by the Catholic clergy ; after the indul- gence being given, is the indulgence a qualification to receive the remission, or does the indulgence itself remit the temporal punish- ment ? — The indulgence consists in the remission of the temporal punishment, that may remain due after the eternal guilt be re- mitted ; this indulgence cannot be gained, unless the sin is pre- viously forgiven ; and after the sin and the eternal punishment due to the sin are forgiven, then the indulgence remits the temporal DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 441 punishment, or a portion of temporal punishment, t^at is due after the sin is forgiven. In Ireland, how are those indulgences now granted, by what authorities, and in what manner ? — The indulgences in Ireland are granted by the Pope generally. Directly, or passing through the medium of the ecclesiastical authorities in Ireland ? — Passing through the medium of the ec- clesiastical authorities ; they are sent to the ecclesiastical autho- rities, and they announce them to the faithful, Avho are at liberty to avail themselves of them. Are they generally or individually granted .? — Generally. Are they granted generally to the Cathohc communicants in a particular diocese, or to individual communicants forming part of that body.? — There are some indulgences granted for the entire kingdom ; there are other indulgences granted to particular dio- ceses. Are they in those particular dioceses granted generall}'-, or to individuals, at the pleasure of the bishop or metropoKtan ? — There are certain conditions generally required in order to obtain the benefit of an indulgence ; one of the conditions is, to approach the sacraments with proper dispositions, as inward sorrow, de- testation of sin, and a firm purpose and resolution of amendment: when those conditions are complied with, on the part of the peni- tent, then the indulgence extends to him. It is stated in this same catechism, that Roman Catholics hold that faith is not to be kept with heretics, and that the Pope can absolve subjects from their oath of allegiance to their sovereign: is there the slightest truth in those two accusations, or the most remote ground for them ? — Not the slightest truth ; as a minister of the Catholic church, I feel it my duty to declare, that I have always considered it imperative on me to impress on the minds of those who are under my spiritual cai'C, that they are bound to keep faith with heretics, and all those differing from them in re- ligion, as strictly and as rigidly as they would towards persons of their own communion. With respect to the allegiance that is due to the sovereign, the Pope has no right of interference whatsoever ; we recognise no power in the sovereign pontiff, or in any other au- thority, to absolve us from the allegiance which we owe to our king. By heretics, are all persons understood who are not of the Roman Catholic communion ? — I should conceive there are many who are not within the communion of the Roman Catholic church, who yet are not heretics. Are the individuals belonging to the Greek church considered as heretics, by the Roman Catholic church ? — No, not at all. They are considered as schismatics ? — As schismatics ; accord- ing to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, to constitute a DR. KELLY EXAMINED. heretic, contumacy in error with respect to matters of faith is ne- cessary; and where there is not a contumacious adherence to error in matters of faith, there is no heresy. Would not that character of heresy apply then to all churches which have separated from the see of Rome, and continued to deny its authority? — No; I do conceive that there are many, Avho are not of the Roman Catholic communion, Avhom, Avhen it is their conscientious belief that they are not denying any thing which is essential to salvation, and that they have no means of having their error removed, I do not by any means consider as heretics, though they may not belong to the visible body of the Roman Catholic church. Is it in the poAver of the Pope to grant a dispensation from ob- serving an oath ? — The Pope can grant no dispensation from ob- serving a lawful oath. Although the Catholic church would regard many of the mem- bers of the Protestant establishment as heretics, it does not neces- sarily regard them all as heretics, on account of their differing from the Roman Catholic church ? — Not by any means. All members of the Church of England believe in the same ar- ticles of faith, then how do you draw a distinction between those whom you say you wovild call heretics belonging to the Church of England, and those whom you say you would not call heretics be- longing to the same church ? — I have already mentioned that, in order to constitute a heretic, contumacy in error concerning mat- ters of faith, is necessary ; I think there are many who are invin- cibly ignorant of those articles of faith which we hold to be es- sential, and their being unacquainted with them, and having no opportunity of removing the error under Avhich they labour, is a sufficient ground for not considering them as heretics. Do you mean by your past evidence to state, that you conceive that all members of the Church of England believe the same doc- trine, or that there is not a considerable difference of opinion among members of the Church of England ? — I do not pretend to say, that all members of the Established Church hold the same articles of faith. Will you be good enough to explain to the Committee, what you mean by the word Contumacy .'' — A refusal on the part of an individual to embrace doctrines necessary to salvation, after having had a sufficient opportunity of being convinced of their truth. If a person was not conscientiously convinced of the necessity of believing such doctrine, would you consider him contumacious.'' — If his ignorance was voluntary, I should consider him contu- macious ; if his ignorance m- as involuntary and invincible, I should consider him free from the guilt of contumacy. DR. KELLY EXAMINED. Then, under that interpretation, would you consider all the divines of the EstabUshed church and of the Presbyterian church, and, in short, of every denomination of Christians differing from the Roman Cathohc church, as contumacious ?-If the errors which they held, were involuntary and invincible on their part, I should not consider them so. But if what are called errors, arise from a conviction in the mind of the person who holds them, of their not being errors, and are thereby involuntary on his part, would you then consider them contumacious ? — When he has had sufficient opportunities of bein^ instructed and enlightened, and he still continues to hold what I consider erroneous doctrine, I do no longer consider his error in- voluntary, I consider it voluntary, and then, of course, comes the guilt of contumacy. Then, in short, every person Avho has had education, and has turned his attention to these matters, who has received the general instruction that people do upon a rehgious education, is, in your interpretation of the word, a heretic, if he does not agree with the principles of the Catholic religion? — I could not undertake to pronounce sentence upon any individual, the individual is the best judge whether he has used the necessary diligence, in order to remove his error ; all I assert, generally, is, that those who, after having had a full opportunity of acquiring a knowledge of the truths which I consider necessary to salvation, and of having their error removed, if they still persist, I do consider such error on their part to be voluntary, and that they therefore become con- tumacious ; but who the individuals are that are so circumstanced, is what I do not take upon myself to determine. You of course beheve that your own church is the true church ; it is the nattu'e of every church, that the conscientious professors of it believe that their own profession is the true one ? — Yes ; I do believe the Roman Catholic church to be the true one. Then Avith respect to a person who differs from your church, if in your opinion it is merely error, on his part, and that he honestly ana conscientiously differs from your church ; and after he has endeavoured to inform himself, still continues in error, you do not count that person a heretic ? — I do not count a person a heretic, whose error is involuntary and invincible. What is the distinction you take between Schism and Heresy ; is it that the one is vokmtary, and the other involuntary ? — No. Schism and Heresy are different things ; schism refers to the go- vernment and discipline of the church, and heresy to its doctrines. Whether a person differs in a voluntary manner, or an invo- luntary manner, still you consider that Catholics are bound to keep faith with him, as well as with one of their own communion.^ — Just as much as with persons of their own communion. 444 DR. KELLY EXA.MINED. And all other moral ties that subsist between man and man, subsist equally between a Catholic and a heretic, and between a Catholic and one of his own communion ? — Exactly the same ; it makes not the smallest difference. All moral ties, all contracts, and all engagements, we are bound to fulfil towards those who differ from us in religion, as well as towards those who are of the same persuasion. Then, if the Committee understand your evidence right, it is perfectly consistent with the general belief in the mind of a Roman Catholic, that a church which differs from his own in important matters of faith, may be heretical ; that yet that Roman CathoKc may not be disposed to visit with the severity of that opinion, in- dividuals belonging to that church ? — Exactly. Do not you think it almost impossible, for one human being to look so into the heart of another, as to determine positively, whe- ther he is in a state of involuntary ignorance, or of obstinate re- fusal to the truth ? — I would not undertake to do it. Do not you think, under those circumstances, that persons who differ from one another in religion, are bound to the observance of mutual duties as to each other, and to put a kind interpretation upon their motives and conduct? — They are strictly bound to love each other, and to discharge the duties of society and of christian charity towards each other, just the same as if they agreed upon every point of religious belief. Is it your opinion, that the general question of Catholic Eman- cipation excites a considerable degree of interest among the lower orders of Catholics, in the part of Ireland with which you are particularly acquainted ? — In the part of Ireland with which I am particularly acquainted, it is my opinion that the question of Catholic Emancipation, engages the thoughts and the attention of all ranks of Catholics considerably. Though in the case of Catholic Emancipation being granted, no particular or immediate benefits might be considered to be granted to the lower orders of Catholics, is it not your opinion, that they Avould look upon it as a boon to the Catholic population at large, removing from the higher ranks of their religion, the mark of infamy and degradation which is now affixed to them? — I am perfectly satisfied that they would receive it as a boon, and that they wovdd feel the utmost gratitude for it ; and that it would tend most materially towards tranquillizing their minds, and leaving them more at ease than they can feel at present. Do not you think it would have a soothing effect upon the lower orders of Catholics ? — It would have the most soothing effect. Do not you think the payment of the Catholic clergy by the State, would have a yet more soothing effect upon the lower orders jn Ireland ? — I am not aware that the payment of the Roman DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 445 Catholic clergy by the State, would by any means be considered a boon by the lower orders. Do not the lower orders of Roman Catholics in Ireland, feel an objection at times to paying the dues that the Roman CathoUc priests receive from them ? — In some instances, I have no doubt that they may feel some reluctance. Would not relieving them from the payment of those dues, be considered by them as a boon ? — They would prefer paying their clergy as they do at present, to seeing them become the stipendia- ries of government. Do you mean to say, that they would prefer continuing to pay their clergy as they do at present, rather than to see them become the stipendiaries of government, if the grant of those stipends was accompanied by what is called Catholic Emancipation ; or do you mean to confine your answer to the consideration of that grant, separate from Catholic Emancipation ? — My answer referred to our present state ; Avhilst the Roman Catholic laity remain ex- cluded from the benefits of the constitution, I do conceive that they would feel much hurt at seeing their clergy become the sti- pendiaries of government. You do not believe that the same jealousy would be felt by the Cathohc population, if the two measures, a provision for the clergy and the removal of political disabilities, on account of re- ligious persuasion, Avere made concurrent measures ? — I am not aware exactly what effect it might then produce ; perhaps it would be then considered a kindness, provided the Roman Catholic clergy Avere alloAved the free exercise of their functions, and there were no influence or authority, direct or indirect, exercised over them in the discharge of their duties. Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee, what interference with the discharge or exercise of their functions could be suspected, by their receiving a provision from the State, in lieu of their present mode of payment ? — If, for example, the appoint- ment of Catholic ministers were to be vested in those Avho differed from them in religion, tliey Avould conceive that in that case per- sons might be appointed as clergymen of their communion, Avhose selection might be influenced by motives distinct from the consi- deration of their fitness for the discharge of their duties. Then the objection Avould be, not to the clergy receiving a pro- vision from the State, in lieu of their present payment, but to al- loAving an interference in the appointment of then* bishops or other clergy ? — I should think principally so. Then the doubts which you felt, Avith regard to the question how far a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy Avould be ac- ceptable to the Catholics of Ireland, referred altogether to the in- dependence of the Catholic church in the question of appointments, 446 DR KELLY EXAMINED. and their protection from what might be considered an' undue in- terference on the part of the Crown ? — It is in that sense particu- larly I understand it at this moment. Then, in the event of a payment for the Roman Catholic clergy being connected with arrangements that would secure the inde- pendence of the Catholic clergy, as well as being connected with Emancipation itself, have you any doubt that that measure would be acceptable to the Catholics of Ireland? — I really have not turned my thoughts to that question exactly, as it is now put ; I do beheve that some of the people would have no objection, in that event, to a provision being made for them. You have stated, you are not aware what the feelings of the Catholic population might altogether be ; would there be any ob- jection do you believe, on the part of the prelates and clergy, to receiving such a provision, provided, as was stated in a former question, the grant of it was accompanied by the concession of political privileges to the laity, and the security of the indepen- dence of the Catholic church .'' — I cannot exactly answer what the feelings of our prelates and clergy might be on the occasion ; I would not undertake to say. Should you, yourself, as one of the prelates of that church, have any objection to such a provision being made ? — As one of the prelates of the church, I will candidly confess, I should prefer remaining as I now am. Would you have any objection to state to the Committee gene- rally, what the value or amount of revenue received by the bishop and clergy of your diocese, may be.-^ — I can safely answer, I should think, although I have never made an exact calculation, my receipts, within any one year,, never amounted to 700/. ; and I do not suppose, that in general, they ever much exceed 500/. With respect to the clergy of your diocese, what is the average income of a parish priest ? — There may be three or four parishes in the arch-diocese of Tuam, where the receipts of the priests amount to perhaps about froni S50/. to 300/. per annum. Do those parishes include the towns ?■ — They include the towns. The parish of Tuam is your own parisli ? — It is. From what other sources, besides the parish of Tuam, is your revenue derived ? — Each parish priest gives a guinea or two in the year, and for each marriage that is performed in the parish, there is a certain portion of that money given to the support of the bishop ; those are the sources of his emolument as bishop. Have you more than one parish ? — I have the charge of West- port parish at present. Is it the custom of the Catholic church to have unions of pa- rishes, in the same manner as in the Established church.'* — It CR. KELLY EXAMINfiD. 447 sometimes happens. On my appointment to the see of Tuam I found the revenues of it inadequate to the objects I had in view. I wished to estabhsh an episcopal seminary, and to estabHsh schools for the education of the poor ; and I wished, besides that, to have it in my power to give occasional assistance towards^ the erection or repair of Roman Catholic chapels throughout my diocese : and finding that the revenues of the diocese were inade- quate to those objects, I made application to be allowed to hold another parish along with the parish of Tuam, in order that by receiving some emolument therefrom, I might be able to fulfil those objects I have alluded to. How do you administer the parish of Westport.'' — By cu- rates. May the Committee ask, what is the value of that parish ? — I should think about 300/. a year. Is the union of parishes in themselves, separated by great dis- tance, usual in the case of Catholic archbishops or bishops, with a view of augmenting their income, or supplying the inadequacy of their income ? — The principal object I had in view, in obtain- ing a second parish, the parish of Westpprt, was what I have stated. I had other objects besides ; I did apprehend, that per- haps if I were to send another priest to the place, he would not be very kindly received by certain individuals there, and I thought that an unpleasant difference would be avoided by taking the pa- rish in charge myself. When you state the average income to be from 500/. to 700/. a year, of the parish of Tuam, and of your office of bishop, do you mean to include the produce of the parish of Westport also, or is that an addition to the average income .'' — Although I have held the parish of Westport now for nearly three years, I can declare safely, that I have not received 100/. out of it during the whole time I have hekl it. The poverty of the people was such, that I gave directions to the curates there, in consequence of the severe pressure of the times, and the distresses of the {)eople in that town and parish, not to be very urgent in the col- ection of the dues, for which reason I have received very little emolument out of it. Is there the same union of the bishopric of Ardagh with the archdiocese of Tuam in the Catholic, as there is in the Protestant church .''■ — No. Do you hold any bishopric united with the archdiocese of Tuam ? — N one. Did you mean, by stating that you would rather things re- mained as they are, with respect to any project of a stipendiary provision for the clergy, to carry your objection to that stipen- diary provision so far as to say, that you would regret it should DR. KELLY EXAMINED. be carried into effect, provided it facilitated the great question of Catholic Emancipation? — I should be very sorry to raise the slightest difficulty in the way of Catholic Emancipation ; and I would make great sacrifices of my personal feelings as to the mode of provision, were such sacrifices essential to the attain- ment of that object, inasmuch as I consider it a paramount con- sideration. Mercurii, 23° die Marfii, 1S25. SIR HENRY PARNELL, BARONET, IN THE CHAIR. The Most Reverend Oliver Kelly, D.D., Titular Archbishop of Tuam, again called in ; and further Examined. Have you been able to observe any Increase in the popula- tion of the district with which you are acquainted ? — For the last twenty-four years that I have been in Ireland, I have ob- served a ver}' considerable increase in the population of the part of the country where I have been residing. Have you been able to discover any distinction in the i-atio of increase in those districts where the situation of the people is improved, as compared with the increase of the population where the people are in a great state of misery ? — I think I have. About the year 1806 I was appointed to a parish in the county of Maj^o, along the sea coast, between the towns of Westport and Newport, and I found that the people who in- habited that district were extremely comfortable ; they were more industrious than the generality of the people in other parts of the country ; they were weavers ; they had taken spots of ground along the sea-coast, and they employed themselves occasionally at the linen business, at other times in tilling their little farms, and where an opportunity offered, in fishing : by those means they became much more comfortable than the pea-' santry in other parts of the country, and the increase of the population was not so rapid. Have you been able to compare the number of marriages which took place in a' district like that which you have de- scribed, with the number of marriages that took place in the more agricultural and less prosperous districts ? — Yes, I think I have ; I did observe, that in those prosperous districts the DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 449 marriages were not so frequent as I found them in more im- poverished districts. In those more prosperous districts you found that there was an indisposition, on the part of the people, to contract improvi- dent marriages ? — I found that there was an indisposition, on their part, to contract improvident marriages. I have pei'- fectly on my recollection that the circumstance struck me at the time, and that I did inquire amongst the people how it happened ; and the reply T received was, that they had no idea of entering into the matrimonial state until they could acquire a competency for their own support, and the support of a family. In other parts of the country, where I observed very considerable poverty, I found a greater indifference about their future comforts than among pei-sons in a more prosperous situa- tion in life. Then do you believe that every measure which has a tendency to augment the comfort of the peasant, and raise his condition in society, has also a tendency to check improvident marriages ? ■ — Decidedly ; from the experience I have had, and from the observations that I have made. Do the peasantry feel any considerable difficulty in providing themselves with habitations of a decent and respectable kind in your part of the country ? — Very great difficulty. Is there much timber available for those purposes within the reach ofthe peasantry ? — There is a great want of native timber, there is very little of it grown in the parts of the country I am acquainted with ; and the foreign timber is quite beyond the reach of the poor, and therefore they cannot make their habi- tations comfortable or convenient ; and I have heard them fre- quently make the remark, that if they could get timber at a cheap rate they would endeavour to make comfortable habita- tions for themselves. Is not the high price of foreign timber in Ireland a great obstacle to the building of slated houses for the peasantry ? — I thiiik it is. Do you conceive that a reduction of the duty on foreign tim- ber would place timber and slated houses within the reach of a class in Ii'eland who are now prevented from making use of it from the high price of the article ? — I know it would ; I know that if the duty on foreign timber were reduced, it would enable many to build comfortable houses, who are now obliged to content themselves with thatched cabins. Do you conceive that any facility given to the peasantry to improve the state of the houses in the country, would also have a tendency to check tlie increase ofthe population to which you have adverted, on the principles laid down in the early part of your evidence?— I am. decidedly of opinion, that any thing 2 G DR. KELLY EXAMINED. that would tend to improve the condition of the peasantry, would be a check on improvident marriages. Is it the custom in that part of Ireland with which you are connected, for landlords to give long leases to their tenants ? — • No. What is the general term ? — One life, or twenty-one years, whichever may last longest. Are the peasantry aware, under such a tenure, that if they plant and register their trees, they become the actual proprie- tors of that timber when grown up ? — I have endeavoured to impress that upon them, but I do not know that it is generally understood. Have you found any of the tenantry sufficiently enlightened to follow that advice ? — The planting of trees is a matter not much attended to by them ; the forms necessary for the registry may in some degree account for it. Can you at all inform the Committee what is the expense of the timber that would be necessary for building a slated house for that kind of peasantry who would be likely to build it ? — I could not exactly say. Could you draw any comparison between the price of the wood with which they at present support the roof of this house, and what would be required in order to support a slated roof? — I dare say it would require four times as much money to put on a roof fit for slates as it would for a thatched cabin. Can you tell what would be the cost of a roof constructed as at present ? — It depends upon the part of the country where the houses are built ; from 20,?. to 40^. I suppose. The question of the transport of the timber is a question quite independent of the duty ? — When I speak of from 40^. to 20s. I speak of the timber they now use. You conceive that you might calculate that a roof of foreign timber, fit for supporting slates, would cost three or four times that amount ? — Yes, at least. Do you know at all the difference between the value of slates for a roof and the thatch that is at present used ? — In the parts of the country I am acquainted with there are slates of different prices ; between the cheapest kind of slate and the thatch roof there is a very considerable difference ; in fact, the thatch they do not consider an expense : the straw they make use of grows on their own little farm, they do not purchase it. Could you form any estimate of what would be the value of the whole tenement of a poor person if built with foreign tim- ber and with slate ; what would be the cost of building at the present price of timber ? — I conceive I could not complete such a comfortable habitation as would be sufficiently spacious for a amily under seventy or eighty pounds. DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 451 Have the lower orders any capital which would go to build such improved houses ? — Not at present, the lower orders in that part of the country have no capital. Do you know whether many of the farmers who now build thatched houses of a better description than those occupied by the peasantry would not be disposed to build slated houses, and whether they do not possess the means of doing so, if they could, rrocure the timber at a cheaper rate than at present ?— When spoke of the expense of building houses I alluded to the better oi*der of the poor, many of whom 1 know at present do live in thatched cabins who would, if the materials were cheaper, build more comfortable houses for themselves. Have you known the circumstance of the occupation of thatched houses by the description of farmers to whom you refer made a means by which they were intimidated by the White Boys, the Ribbonmen, and the disturbers of the public peace ? — I declare I have not. Can you tell the Committee whether a new plan which has been adopted in several parts of Ireland, of covering the poorer kind of houses with a mixture of lime and moss together, has been adopted in the diocese of Tuam ? — No, I have not seen it adopted. Have you heard of the process of covering cottages with that mixture? — No, never till now. Can you inform the Committee upon what principles the clergy in your arch-diocese have acted with regard to improvi- dent marriages ; whether they have taken any steps to discou- rage them, or whether they felt themselves at liberty to do so ? — I know, whenever consulted, they always recommend those who enter into the matrimonial state, not to do so without hav- ing the prospect of being enabled to support, and to make out subsistence for their families. Is there not a fee paid upon marriage in your church ?— There is. Have any instances come within your knowledge in which the receipt of that fee has tended to encourage improvident mar- riages, or has induced the priest to recommend them ? — I have never known or heard of a priest recommending marriage for the sake of the fees. Have you known any instances in which Roman Catholics, both parties being Roman Catholics, have agreed to be married, and have been actually married by Protestant clergymen ? — I have known instances where the Roman Catholic parties have made application to Roman Catholic clergymen, and have been refused on account of canonical impediments, and the parties 2 G 2 452 I>R' KELLY EXAMINED. were subsequently married by a minister of the Established Church. At what age of the parties, can you inform the Committee, are marriages usually contracted among the peasantry ? — Very young ; in general the females marry at eighteen or twenty ; the males at twenty-one, twenty-two, and from that to thirty. Almost universally, are they not married before they are one or two-and-twenty ? — Generally speaking, the females are. Is the practice of subdividing land by the father or chief of a family usual in the part of the countiy with which you are ac- quainted, in order to enable them to contract those marriages ? , — It is quite a usual thing in that part of the country. Will you have the kindness to state to the Committee any facts which have come to your knowledge, if any are within your knowledge, with respect to the subdivision of land, and the accumulation of families upon any particular districts, ow- ing to that practice, accompanied by that of early marriages ? — I can bring to my recollection a farm which was originally leased to about twenty families, and I recollect to have seen isixty different families afterwards living upon the same farm. Was that in the neighbourhood of Tuam ? — It was. Do you happen to know whether the land or the farm upon which that immense increase of population arose was derived immediately from the proprietor of the fee, or through a grada- tion of landlords or interests? — It was derived immediately from the landlord in fee. Was the subdivision of land which resulted from this state of things that over which the landlord had any control, or was the tenantry multiplied in this manner without any inter- vention of his? — There was no intervention on the part of the landlords Then it grew from the natural causes of the subdivision of the soil, and the increase of marriages ? — Entirely. Was the tract of land an extensive district upon which this great augmentation took place ? — The tract of land was not "very considerable ; they were obliged to have recourse to other parts of the country to have tillage, in what we call, in that part of the country Conacres. Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee what the practice of conacres is in the county of Galway ? — The practice of conacres in the county of Galway is, that a poor man -who has not land, or a sufficiency of land of his OAvn, takes an acre, or half an acre, or less, from some person for a single sea- son, and takes the crop of that year off the land. Is not the practice of burning the soil usual upon taking the DR. KELLY EXAMINEr>. 453 Conacres ? — That is sometimes allowed ; many persons have an objection to have their land burnt. Either process is a great exhaustion of the soil ? — Very consi- derable in some soils. Then do you mean to describe to the Committee, that the circumstance of the increase of the number of families upon a certain district within your knowledge was so great, that, for the purpose of having absolute support, the people Avho lived upon that soil were forced to recur to this practice of conacres upon another estate and property? — They were obliged, for their absolute support, to have recourse to another property. Was that farm upon which this subdivision took place a consi- derable farm in the first instance ?- — A very considerable farm in the first instance ; it would have made the twenty families comfortable, without being under the necessity of having re- course to any other land. Will you have the goodness to state, if you can form any sort of estimate, what the number of individuals might have been in those sixty families ? — The average I always make in families is six. Then on this farm the number had increased to 360 souls? — Thereabouts. Have you ever been able to compare the result of your own enumeration of the people in any one part of your district with the number contained in the last population returns ? — Yes, I have in some instances. What has been the result of that comparison ? — So far as ever 1 examined, I always found the population under-rated. In the population returns? — In the population returns. As far as your experience goes, the number of people in your district is above the return officially made to Parliament ? — I think so. In what proportion? — I could not exactly say. Do you know any one instance you can state the number ; in the county of Mayo, for instance, or any other part of your dis- trict? — I could not exactly adduce any instance, but the general impression upon my mind always was that the population was under-rated. Are you able to state the proportion of births to deaths in your diocese, or in any parish in your diocese, in a year? — I could not at this moment. What is your opinion with regard to the proportion that the number of Roman Catholics bear to Protestants in your dio- cese? — I recollect that in the year 1815 the Catholic clergy took a census of the population in the parish of Tuam, and it amounted to 6000 souls, and at that time the proportion was, 454 I»R. KELLY EXAMINED. that of tliose 6,000 there were 380 Protestants, and the rest were Catholics. What counties are therein your diocese? — Parts of the county of Galway and the county of Mayo, and one or two parishes in Roscommon. Have you, or has any person under your direction, taken any regular census of any part of the diocese? — The parish priests in general can pretty nearly ascertain the amount of the Catholic population of their respective parishes. In what instances is it that you have discovered an error in the population returns? — Comparing the population of some of the small towns in my diocese, and also the returns of the Roman Catholic clergy, with those made to Parliament, I found the latter under the returns made by the Roman Catholic clergy. Are those returns made from actual enumeration or from calculation ? — In the instance of Tuam in was done by actual enumeration. The Committee understood you to state that the population return that was recently taken was incorrect ? — I did not say incorrect ; but I mentioned that, in the population returns I had looked over, I found that they were under the idea that I had formed of the population of the districts to which I looked. Then your conviction of their being under-rated in the po- pulation returns arises from that calculation, and not from any actual enumeration ? — My belief that the population was under- rated in the census proceeds from my comparing those returns with the reports of the Roman Catholic clergy. Were those reports of the Roman Catholic clergy generally founded upon actual enumeration, or only upon calculation?— In the instance of Tuam it was by actual enumeration ; in the others it was from a calculation, knowing the number of fami- lies and averaging the number of individuals in each family. Have you any of those returns that have been made to you by the Roman Catholic clergy ? — I have not got one. Could you furnish the Committee with them ? — I could not at this moment. Was there not a return made during the season of distress in Ireland of the number of persons relieved in the county of Mayo from actual enumeration ; from the distribution of that relief? — I really never thought that enumeration correct. Did you consider that it was above the actual number or below it ? — Generally above it. Then you do not conceive that return to be correct 1 — I do not consider that return correct. In enumerating the causes of the increase of population in DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 455 Ireland, do not you think that the facility of procuring fuel is one of the chief causes? — The facility of obtaining fuel is a great encouragement to the building of cabins. Is not turf the common fuel ? — ^Turf is the common fuel. Is the turf bog leased out to the tenantry in the same manner as their lands are leased, or is it held by the landlord in his own power ? — It is generally held by the landlord in his own power, and not included in the lease. Has any landlord within your knowledge ever refused per- mission to cut turf, with the view of keeping down the popu- lation, of his district!* — No, I have never known them to do so for that purpose ; I have known landlords not to allow tenants to cut more than a certain quantity of turf, but that was to prevent the bog being exhausted. You were stating to the Committee the circumstances under which the population has increased in some particular j^arts of the diocese of Tuam, and having among other causes mentioned the subdivision of land, would you have the goodness to inform the Committee whether that subdivision of land has been in- creased by any other causes, that contribute to it besides the early marriages : in point of fact, whether the landlords of the country have at any time contributed to its increase ? — I have reason to believe that the landlords of the country have often contributed to it for the purpose of increasing the number of freeholders. As contested elections have more than once taken place in the county of Galway, and in the county of Mayo, both which counties are in part within your diocese, you have had an oppor- tunity doubtless of witnessing the manner in which votes are manufactured in those counties? — I have heard and seen a good deal about it. You reside in Tuam ? — I do. Tuam is a quarter sessions town? — It is. Have you seen the registry of freeholdei*s constantly pro- ceeding in that town? — Frequently. Have you had an opportunity of knowing hoAV a freehold is created, and what the class of persons is to whom it is given, as well as the interest which they generally have in the tenure of their lands? The Committee take the liberty of re- ferring to you, because they know that Tuam has been a con- siderable manufacturing town. — I have known landlords of the country to parcel out their lands into small portions, making leases of a life or twenty-one years to their tenants, for the pur- pose of enabling them to give a vote at elections. What is the smallest portion of land out of which you have known a freeholder's being registered f— They register out of three acres sometimes. 456 DR. KELLY EXAMINED. Have not instances come within your knowledge of one or more freeholders being registered out of less than three acres? — They may perhaps have registered out of less. Are not the farms in your part of the country generally held in joint tenancy? — They have been. Is not that the usual practice? — It has been the usual practice. Are not the population of the country in the county of Gal- way usually congregated in villages, and not residing in sepa- rate houses? — They are. Those villages are generally held under a separate lease .-^ — They are. How many partners in the lease? — Ten, twelve, or twenty partners. And the holders in such joint tenancy divide again, as you be- fore described, to their sons and sons-in-law, and the members of their families? — Yes, they do. Are they not obliged by their landlord, or induced perhaps, to create a freehold interest in each of the persons upon whom such small subdivisions of land have devolved.^ — In many in- stances. They all are brought in to be registered ? — In many instances they are. Will you have the kindness to describe any of the scenes of registry which have taken place within your own observation.'* — I have never been present at a registry, but I have met the unfortunate people who have registered, very often. Do you mean coming in, or returning from registering .? — Be- fore and after registering. Have you ever conversed with those persons? — Yes, I have. Will you have the kindness to state the tenure of their con- versation, or of their observations upon the task they had been performing? — They have often called upon me to represent their condition, and stated that the quantity of land they held was very small; that they were very apprehensive about taking the oath that they were 40 not to his injury. Does this mode of levying this particular assessment gene- rally prove sufficient for its enforcement ? — It often fails. Is it applied to any other assessment excepting that for chapels ? — For chapels and schools. And those only ? — Those only. Has it not been applied occasionally to the levy of what is called Catholic Rent ? — Not to my knowledge, never in any one instance. Have you never heard that a clergyman did withhold, or threaten to withhold the performance of a religious rite, or re- monstrate publicly with an individual, on that account.'' — Cer- tainly not in my part of the country ; they never made any ob- servation upon any individual for the non-payment of that con- tribution ; in fact, I do not suppose there was any great oppor- tunity, for I never knew any money that was paid with such alacrity as that was. In your diocese no instance of that kind occurred ? — I never heard of one. Are the assessments for the repair of chapels laid on by the people themselves? — By the people themselves, by the heads of villages ; the clergyman is recommended to form them into a committee, who assess the parish, and the clergyman is the prin- cipal collector of this assessment ; he pays it into the hands of a treasurer appointed by themselves, and the money is expended afterwards. Can you describe to the Committee the manner in which church and parochial rates are levied within the parishes with which you are acquainted in the arch-diocese of Tuam ? — The collection of the church rates rests with the churchwardens ; they employ a clerk, and this clerk sends out his man amongst the people, and he collects this church rate from them. The churchwarden is empowered by the vestry ? — By the vestry. Are you able to inform the Committee how the vestry is as- sembled and constituted ? — I have never attended at a vestry, but I have heard it mentioned that the parishioners assemble there. Catholic and Protestant, and that the vestry cess for the year is announced and discussed; the Catholics are allowed to offer their opinion on the matter, but if a difference of opinion should arise, I understand that latterly the Catholics have been 474 DR. KELLY EXAMINED. excluded, as not ha\'ing a legal right to vote in vestries on the occasions for which they are usually assembled. Not having votes in church matters? — Not having votes In the vestries on those occasions. Do you mean that they are allowed to attend and give opinions, but not to give their votes ? — Yes. Do you mean that they have no votes on any occasion in ves- tries, or that being assembled in vestry, they are excluded from voting in matters relative to the i*epair of churches ? — In mat- ters relative to the repair of churches. Among others, they are allowed to be present at the discussion, and where they come to vote an assessment for the repair of the church they are ex- cluded, I have heard them say so. Do you mean that they have a vote in all proceedings of ves- tries except as to the amount of assessment ? — No, I have not known them to vote at all. Is not the exclusion of Catholics from voting at vestries in the parish at Tuam, for example, a matter of late origin, and a few years ago were not they allowed to vote ? — It is a matter of late origin; they were always in the habit before of taking a share in it. Residing in the parish of Tuam, you can inform the Com- mittee whether the amount of rate has been greatly augmented since the period when they have ceased so to vote at vestries ? — Yes, I have heard them say that it has increased considerably. Do you know whether their attendance at vestries is a matter of right, or a matter of courtesy? — A matter of courtesy, on those occasions, I understand. Do you know any instances in which, at the parochial vestries, sums have been voted for the repair of Roman Catholic chapels in your district? — I have heard of one instance. And levied on the parish ? — Levied on the parish. Or for the support of Roman Catholic schools? — I have never known any thing to be done in vestry for Catholic schools ; I have heard of one vote of a vestry for the repair of a chapel. Where was that ? — At Athenry. Although a vote has not been specifically made for the repair of chapels, are not you aware that sometimes, under a vote for contingencies, there is a sum included for the repair of Roman Catholic chapels ? — t never knew an instance in the arch-diocese of Tuam, except the one I have mentioned. Do you know of any considerable sum having been assessed in the parish of Tuam for the repair of the cathedral church .'' — Yes, I have heard of that. Do you know what amount ? — 1500^. I understood. DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 475 Are you aware what the assessment made in the parish of Athenry was, which you have alluded to? — 10/. I understood. Annually ? — No, only on one occasion. Was this vote in the parish of Athenry in support of a Roman Catholic chapel made while the Catholics were in participation of the right of voting at vestries ? — I never knew them to have the right of voting; they were lately excluded from attaching any weight to their opinions. In the course of the last year there prevailed in Ireland gene- rally a strong opinion on the subject of certain prophecies known by the name of Pastorini's Prophecies, were they much circu- lated within the arch-diocese of Tuam ? — I have made the most diligent search in my power, and in my life I never met more than two copies of Pastorini's Prophecies ; they certainly were not in general circulation throughout the arch-diocese of Tuam, for I used the utmost diligence, and got my clergy to unite in making the most strict search, and we could not make out a third copy of Pastorini's Prophecies. Can you inform the Committee what the impression was gene- rally with respect to those prophecies upon the minds of the lower orders of the popiilation ? — I do not think the prophecies of Pastorini were much read or understood in my part of the country at all. Have you heard that in other parts of Ireland they were ex- tensively circulated? — Yes, I have. Did you hear whether they had much effect upon the people in those other parts of the kingdom ? — I think that they made an impression upon some individuals. Or that there was considerable expectation and excitement in the popular mind caused by them ? — Not that I could ever discover. Did not some members of the Catholic prelacy publish ad- dresses to the people to dissuade them from believing in those prophecies, and to deny any authority being attached to them by the church? — They did. May the Committee not assume then, when such letters came forth from them, that the cii'culation of the prophecies must have been general, at least in those dioceses where such ad- dresses were published? — I cannot speak as to other dioceses. Did not the clergy in your diocese also inculcate upon the people that the church attached no authority to those publi- cations ? — They did ; and for the last year in particular, in con- sequence of the importance that was attached to those prophecies by some persons, the clergy throughout the diocese had instruc- tions to announce to the peasantry not to read the prophecies of Pastorini should they come in their way, or any other prophecies 476 DR. KELLY EXAMINED. whatsoever ; nor any books having a tendency to inflame their minds ; and, in short, to submit all books to their pastors for inspection. At vrhat time was this? — Thi'oughout theentire of the lastyear. Are there generally amongst the people circulated prophecies of a general nature, which lead them to the expectation of the accomplishment of particular events, or of great changes arising in their situation, or in that of the country ; is such the habit or the custom in your part of the country ? — I believe there are imposters, who go about and undertake to circulate and explain prophecies ; but I never could learn that they were successful in their imposition, or that they had made any material im- pression. Or that much credit is attached to them.^ — Or that much credit is attached to them. Is the belief general in Ireland in the cases which have been stated of the miraculous cures that have taken place, and have been supposed to take place in consequence of the interposition of particular prayers or services of the church.'' — There is a general belief that God listens to the prayers of pious men, and that through their intercession the infirm are sometimes re- stored to health. And that such was the case in the instances which have been published ? — And that such has been the case in some late in- stances. The Catholic doctrine, with respect to miracles, is, that God has at all times the power of performing miracles, and that he does sometimes perform those miracles through the in- tervention of pious persons. Are those miracles regarded by the Roman Catholic church, as evidence of the superiority of that church to others .'' — The Catholic church does consider that the power of working miracles is a strong evidence of the truth of the faith of the church. Is the opinion inculcated or believed, that it is a proof of the exclusive truth of that church? — The Catholics believe their church to be the true church, and consider that miracles furnish one of its proofs. Do they consider, in the Roman Catholic church, the per- formance of those miracles to be evidence of the superiority of that church to all others ? — They do consider those miracles as one of the proofs of the truth of the faith of their church. Are there a great number of Catholics who do not believe in the truth of those miracles ? — No Catholic is bound to believe in the existence of those miracles to which allusion is made. Are you aware of the fact that there are a great number of Catholics who do not believe in those miracles .''—I am ; they do not cease to be Catholics on that account. DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 477 Do Catholics conceive any pai-ticular privilege to be obtained by their own Church in consecjuence of those miracles ? — They conceive the power of working miracles to exist, but in what particular instance that power is exercised they are not called upon to decide. That is a matter of private judgment ? — That is a matter of private judgment, as to the recent miracles. And formed upon their own view, on examination of the evi- dence on which each rests ,'' — Exactly. How can a miracle which parties are at liberty to believe or disbelieve afford any evidence of the truth of the church in which it is worked? — The evidence afforded of the truth of the faith that is in our church, is deduced from the miracles formally recognised in the universal church; but as to the particular question whether this power has been recently exercised, that is a matter of private judgment which does not affect the faith of an individual. Does the Roman Catholic church consider that miracles can be worked by other churches.'' — The Roman Catholic church believes that God can work a miracle through the instru- mentality of any agent he may please to select. Do they believe that a miracle so worked is evidence of the ti'uth of that religion through the instrumentality of which it is worked ? — Miracles form a part of the evidences of the true church. In point of fact, are the Committee to understand that all miracles subsequent to those recorded in the New Testament are matters on which a good Catholic may exercise his private judgment as to any particular miracle ? — Certainly. But every good Catholic believes that miracles have been wrought In the church subseq^ient to those recorded in the New Testament, and may still continue to be wrought. Subsequent to those recorded In the Evangelical books.'' — Yes. Yesterday you stated, in your examination, that in the prayers which were addressed to the Virgin Mary, Catholics addressed her not as a Divinity, but as an intercessor? — Yes. The Committee see in a book which contains prayers addressed by Roman Catholics to the Deity, the following prayer : " Tu qui es Mater Dei miserecordissima humilis omnibus penitentibus " Incllnans potestissima ; quia per te ruine angellce i-eparantur, <' per te Sanctis vite janua aperitur, que regem glorie tuis sacris *' uberibus lacrasti et nuturisti et totis visceribus dilexisti, te " deprecor ut mea Inopia sublevetur, ut per te purgatlonem " peccatorum obtineam:" does not that prayer infer something " more than a prayer of intercession? — Not in the least, it is through her intercession ; the words are " ut per te purgatlonem peccatorum obt ineam . '.' 47S DR. KELLY EXAMINED. It is the use of the word 'per that constitutes it a prayer of intercession? — Yes, it is through her intercession only that all those favours are sought to be obtained by this prayer. You stated in your examination yesterday, that Catholics in addressing the cross, do not consider the cross as more than either a picture or a piece of wood ? — Nothing more. The Committee see in the same book of prayei's the following prayer addressed to the cross: " Crux Christi semper sit meum ; *' Crux Christi est quam semper adoro ; Crux Christi est vera " salus; Crux Christi superat gladium ; Crux Christi solvit *' vincula mortis ; Crux Christi est arma invincibilis ; Crux *' Christi est via Veritas et vita ; Crux Christi impedit omne *' malum ; Crux Christi dat omne bonum ; Crux Christi affert *' vitam eternam ; Crux Christi salvet me ; Crux Christi sit *' super me ; Crux Christi sit ante me ; Crux Christi sit post *' me, quia antiquus hostis semper fugit ubi te vidit." The Committee wish to ask whether those jirayers can be addressed to the cross merely as matter, or as a piece of wood, or whether they do not contain more ? — Nothing more than this ; we con- sider that it was on the cross Jesus Christ purchased I'edemption and salvation for us ; the words Crux Christi adoro te have not reference to the material of the cross, but that adoration has reference to Him who died upon the cross. Then the cross is not separated from Jesus Christ in any prayer which Catholics address either to Christ upon the cross, or to tlie cross itself? — When we address the cross in these words, our adoration is directed to Him who died upon it. Is the cross used in that sense figuratively? — Figuratively; of course, in the sense I have mentioned. And in no other sense than that in which a Protestant would understand the word when he may be told to bear the cross of Christ ? — [^ hook was handed to the witness.'] Is that a catholic prayer book in common use in Ireland I — It is an approved catholic prayer book in common use in Ireland. In page 204, in paragraph 1 1 , there is the following passage : ** Catholics renounce all divine worship and adoration of images " or pictures ; God alone we worship and adore, nevertheless " we place pictures to reduce our wandering thoughts and *' excite our memory towards heavenly things; further, we " allow a certain honour to be shown to the images of Christ *' and his saints beyond what is due to profane images and " figures ; not that we believe any divinity or virtue to reside " in them for which they ought to be honoui'ed, but because *' the honour given to pictures as regard to the prototype or " thing represented," is that the doctrine taught by the Roman Catholic clergy to the people of Ireland ? Precisely. 479 ' Veneris, 25° die Martii, 1825. Lord Viscount PALMERSTON, in the chair. The Right Reverend James Magaurin, CD, Titular Bishop of the Diocese of Ardagh, called in ; and Examined. Are you acquainted with the transactions that took place in the year 1788, respecting a communication with foreign Univer- sities, on the subject of matters relating to the authority of the Pope ? — Yes ; I have some recollection of it. Mr. Pitt, in that year, called upon the Committee of the English Roman Catholics to send some queries to those Universities ? — Yes, it is on my recollection, that it was a good deal talked of in the Irish College of Salamanca, in the year 1789, on my arrival there. These are the questions ; first, " Has the Pope or cardinals, or any body of men, or any individual of the Church of Rome, any civil authority, power, jurisdiction or pre-eminence whatsoever, within the realm of England ; secondly. Can the Pope, cardinals, or any body of men, or any individual of the Church of Rome, absolve or dispense with His Majesty's subjects from their oath of allegiance, upon any pretext whatsoever ; thirdly, Is there any principle in the tenets of the Catholic Faith, by which Catholics are justified in not keeping faith with heretics, or other persons differing from them in religious opinions, in any transaction either of a public or a private nature." Where are the answers to those questions to be found ? — I believe the Universities of Salamanca, Alcala, and Valladolid, in Spain, have been consulted, and I be- lieve also the Universities of Paris, Louvain, and Douay, and those universities have given their answers, and I believe their answers are all the same in substance. Are not they contained at length in Mr. Butler''s Memoirs ? — Yes ; I believe so. Are those answers acknowledged to contain a doctrine that is admitted to be correct by the Catholic bishops of Ireland ? — No doubt of it ; and by the Catholic laity ; I beheve they form the substance of the oath of allegiance which is taken by the clergy and laity ; I beheve the oath of allegiance has been framed on the foundation of those decisions. Was not an Abstract of those answers published, with the ad- dress of the Catholic Committee of 1793 ? — Yes ; I think so. Have you read them ? — I have ; and I subscribe to them, with all my heart and souL 480 DR. MAGATJRIN EXAMINED. Is that before you, an Abstract of tlie answers that were re- turned, {the same being shewn to the witness) ? — It is. [ The same was delivered in, and read.] " Abstract from the Answer of the Sacred Faculty of Divinity of Paris, to the above Queries. " After an introduction, according to the usual forms of the University, they answer the first query, by declaring. Neither the Pope nor the cardinals, nor any body of men, nor any other per- son of the Church of Rome, hath any civil authority, civil power, civil jurisdiction, or civil pre-eminence whatsoever, in any king- dom, and consequently none in the kingdom of England, by rea- son or virtue of any authority, power, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence, by Divine institution, inherent in, or granted, or by any other means, belonging the Pope, or the Church of Rome. This doctrine, the Sacred Faculty of Divinity at Paris, has always held, and upon every occasion maintained ; and upon every occasion has rigidly proscribed the contrai'y doctrine from her schools. " Answer to the second Query, Neither the Pope nor the car- dinals, nor any body of men, nor any person of the Church of Rome, can by virtue of the keys, absolve or release the subjects of the King of England from their oath of allegiance. " This and the first query are so intimately connected, that the answer of the first immediately and naturally applies to the se- cond, &c. " Answer to the third query. There is no tenet in the Catholic Church by which Catholics are justified by not keeping faith with heretics, or those who differ from them in matters of religion ; the tenet, that it is lawful to break faith with heretics, is so repugnant to common honesty, and the opinions of Catholics, that there is nothing of which those who have defended the Catholic faith against Protestants, have complained more heavily, than the mahce and calumny of their adversaries, in imputing this tenet to them, &c. &c. &c. " Given at Paris, in the General Assembly of the Sorbonne, held on Thursday the 11 th day, before the calends of March, 1789. " University of Louvain. " Signed in due form." " The Faculty of Di /inity at Louvain, having been requested to give her opinion upon the questions above stated, does it with readiness; but struck with astonishment that such questions should, at the end of this eighteenth century, be proposed to any learned body, by inhabitants of a kingdom that glories in the talents and discernment of its natives — The Faculty being assem- bled for the above purpose, it is agreed, with the unanimous DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. 481 assent of all voices, to answer the first and second queries abso- lutely in the negative. " The Faculty does not think it incumbent upon her, in this place, to enter upon the proofs of her opinion, or to shew how it is supported by passages in the Holy Scriptures, or the writings of antiquity ; that has already been (lone by Bossuet, De Marca, the two Barclays, Goldastres, the Pithaeuses, Argentre Widring- ton, and his Majesty King James the First, in his Dissertation against Bellarraine and Du Perron ; and by many others, &c. &c. " The Faculty then proceeds to declare, that the sovereign power of the State, is in nowise (not even indirectly as it is termed) subject to, or dependent upon any other power, though it be a spiritual power, or even though it be instituted for eternal salvation, &c. &c. " That no man, nor any assembly of men, however eminent in dignity and power, nor even the whole body of the Catholic church, though assembled in general council, can upon any ground or pretence whatsoever, weaken the bond of union between the sovereign and the people ; still less can they absolve or free the subjects from their oath of allegiance. " Proceeding to the third question, the said Faculty of Divinity, (in perfect wonder that such a question should be proposed to her,) most positively and unequivocally answers, That there is not, and there never has been among the Catholics, or in the doctrines of the church of Rome, any law or principle which makes it law- ful for Catholics to break their faith with heretics, or others of a different persuasion from themselves in matters of religion, either in public or private concerns. The Faculty declares the doctrine of the Catholics to be, that the divine and natural law which makes it a duty to keep faith and promises, is the same, and is neither shaken nor diminished, if those ^vatli whom the engage- ment is made, hold erroneous opinions in matters of religion, &c. " Signed in due form, on the 18th of November, 1788." " University of Valladolid. " To the first question it was answered, That neither Pope, cardinals, or even a general church, have any civil authority, power, jurisdiction or pre-eminence, directly or indirectly, in the kingdom of Great Britain, or over any other kingdom or province in which they possess no temporal dominion. " To the second, it is answered, That neither Pope nor cardi- nals, nor even a general council, can absolve the subjects of Great Britain from their oaths of allegiance, or dispense with their ob- ligat " To the third, it is answered, That the obligation of keeping faith, is grounded on the law of nature, which binds all men DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. equally, without respect to their religious opinions ; and with re- gard to Catholics, is still more cogent, as it is confirmed by the principles of their religion. " Signed in the usual form, February 17, 1789." Do not the oaths that are required to be taken by Catholics, by the Act of 1773, and the Act of 1793, contain a denial of those charges that are so frequently made against Roman Catholics, with respect to not keeping faith with heretics, and with respect to the supposed temporal authority of the Pope ?— Yes ; I think those oaths contain that. [A copy of the Oath required by the Act of the l^th and \^th of George 3c?, was delivered in ; and read as follows :] '* I, A. B. do take Almighty God, and his only Son Jesus Christ, my Redeemer, to witness, That I will be faithful, and bear true allegiance to our most gracious Sovereign Lord King George the Third, and him will defend, to the utmost of iny power, from all conspiracies and attempts whatever, that shall be made against his person, crown, and dignity ; and I will do my utmost endeavour, to disclose and make known [to His Majesty, and his heirs, all treasons and traitorous conspiracies which may be formed against him or them. And I do faithfully promise to maintain, support, and defend, to the utmost of my power, the succession of the Crown in His Majesty"'s family, against any person or persons whatsoever, hereby utterly renouncing and ab- juring any obedience or allegiance unto the person taking upon himself the style and title of Prince of Wales, in the lifetime of his father, and who since his death, is said to have assumed the style and title of King of Great Britain and Ireland, by the name of Charles the Third ; and to any other person, claiming or pretending a right to the crown of these realms ; and I do swear, that I do reject und detest, as unchristian and impious, to believe that it is lawful to murder or destroy any person or per- sons whatsoever, for or under pretence of their being heretics ; and also, that unchristian and impious principle, that no faith is to be kept with heretics. I further declare, that it is no article of my faith, and that I do renounce, reject and abjure the opinion, that princes excommunicated by the Pope and council, or by any authority of the See of Rome, or by any authority whatsoever, may be deposed and murdered by their subjects, or by any person whatsoever ; and I do promise, that I will not bold, maintain or abet any such opinion, or any other opinion contrary to what is expressed in this declaration ; and I do de- clare, that I do not believe that the Pope of Rome, or any other foreign prince, prelate, state or potentate, hath or ought to have DR. MAGAURIJJ EXAMIMED. 4lSi any temporal or ci\T[l jurisdiction, power, superiority or pre- eminence, directly or indirectly, within this realm; and I do solemnly, in the presence of God, and his only Son Jesus Christ my Redeemer, profess, testify and declare, that I do make this declaration, and every part thereof, in the plain and ordinary sense of the words of this oath, without any evasion, equivocal tion, or mental reservation whatever, and without any dispensa- tion already granted by the Pope, or any authority of the See of Rome, or any person whatever, and without thinking that I am, or can be acquitted before God or man, or absolved of this de- claration, or any part thereof, although the Pope, or any other persons or authority whatsoever shall dispense with, or annul the same, or declare that it was null and void from the beginning. So help my God." [A Copy of the Oath required by the Act of the 33. m received. In some parts of Ireland, these were not received, such as the law of clandestine marriages. Are not all the important decrees of the Council of Trent en- forced in Ireland ? — They are. Are the decrees of the Council of Lateran enforced in Ireland ? : — I am not aware what parts you refer to. If a person is refused the Sacrament, does that imply that he i* refused absolution ?— There is no instance of giving the one, and refusing the other. Supposing an individual has not paid his assessment for a cha- pel, would there be any power on the part of the bishop or the priest, to withhold from him the Sacraments .'* — No power, for any pecuniary consideration. Then if the Committee should find a letter issued by a Vicar capitular in Ireland, to this effect ; " Reverend Sir, I enjoin you again not to administer any Sacrament, pubhcly or privately, to any person, or any one of his family, who shall not have pre- viously paid the full amount of both taxes ; nor any of the rites of churching women, blessing of clay, or celebrating mass for them, under pain of suspension, to be incurred by the fact ;" If such an order as that were issued to a priest, do not you think he would be compelled to obey it ? — I do not think he should obey it. I do not think such an order should be issued. I know the printed regulations in my diocese are, that neither marriages or baptisms are to be refused on account of money. We have no civil means of enforcing the payment of money ; and sometimes, perhaps, the churching of women, which is not a matter of abso- lute necessity, may be threatened to be postponed, in order to obtain this money for the support of a chapel or of a school ; but a clergyman would be very criminal, if he refused absolution for any such consideration. What is the ceremony of blessing clay ? — It is on account of the law not permitting Roman Catholic clergymen to attend the burial ; that ceremony takes place in the house of the deceased. It is a ceremony previous to the burial i — Yes. What is the state of the chapels in your diocese ? — There are some of them in a miserable state ; but there is an improvement within these few years. Are they not so bad, as to justify great efforts to obtain money in order to procure decent accommodation ? — They are, in many instances. Is the authority of the vicar capitular any other than to ad- minister the see during a vacancy ? — He is a vicar appointed by the chapter to administer the see during a vacancy. Do you concur with those prelates who have stated that they should see no objection, or inconsistency with the discipline of the I>R. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. Catholic church in Ireland, to restrict the nomination of prelates absolutely to those who have been postulated from Ireland ? — Not the smallest objection. In fact, to make domestic nomination essential to the institu- tion ? — Not the smallest objection. Should you object, as being inconsistent with the independence of the Catholic church, to a provision being made by the State for the bishops and clergy of the Catholic church in Ireland .?— I do not see any objection as to its independence, but so far as regards myself, I have no anxiety for it. You say you see no objection as to the independence of the church ; do you see any objection upon any other ground ? — I do believe there are some who would suppose the exertions of the Catholic clergy might slacken when their support was independ- ent of the will of the people ; but, however, I have not those apprehensions, because I think, as long as I live, the clergymen under my care will do their duty. Does not the necessity of contributing to the support of the clergy, in many instances, press rather severely upon the popula- tion ? — No doubt it is so much out of pocket. And in many instances out of a pocket which contains very httle .?— Yes. In many instances, then, it must press very severely upon the population ? — Yes. You can have no doubt, then, that if there was no objection to it in point of independence or of discipline, that such an arrangement must be acceptable to a large body of the Catholic population in Ireland .'' — I think it would, conditionally. Of course concurrent with Cathohc Emancipation ? — I diink in that case it would be acceptable ; I think it would be well re- ceived ; but without that condition I do not think it would be received as a boon. If made concurrent with Catholic Emancipation, or consequent upon such a measure, and not objected to by the bishops or clergy, you cannot have a doubt it would be acceptable to the people ^ — I think it would. In the event of the gift of such a provision being made, con- current with the grant of Catholic Emancipation, should you see any objection to the Crown receiving a power of inquiring into the character and principles of persons postulated for the Cathohc episcopacy, and acting upon such information ? — I would. Would you think that objection would equally lie against it if the inquiry was made by a commission consisting of Catholics ? — I would not like any interference at all on their part, except so far as regards the clergy of the diocese, over whom the individual in contemplation is to preside. DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. Should you conceive it objectionable even if the comiiiission was composed, not only of Catholics, but of Catholic ecclesiastics ? —That they should report to the Crown the appointment, I have no objection to it. That they should report to the Crown the character and prin- ciples of the individual so appointed 'i — Of the individual so a]>. pointed they might report their opinion ; who he is, and their opinion as to his fitness and loyalty, &c. &c. You would consider a previous examination as to his qualifi- cation as inconsistent with the discipline of the church ? — I do not think it would be consistent. In the event of a provision being made by the State for the support of the Roman Cathohc church, do you think there would be any objection in principle to a certificate being required by the Crown from an ecclesiastical Roman Catholic commission, ap- pointed by the Crown, of the character, loyalty, principles, and domestic nomination of the bishops and ' clergy, before they received the stipend which the State gave them ? — That is per- fectly consistent. You see no kind of objection to such an ai-rangement ? — Not the smallest. " Your only objection then is an objection to any interference on the part of a Protestant State, even though exercised by an eccle- siastical Roman Catholic tribunal in the appointment itself "i — Certainly ; that is all. Do you think it just on the part of a Protestant State to require to be assured of the loyalty and irreproachable character of the Roman Cathohc priesthood and hierarchy, before they received a stipend from the State ? — I think it is perfectly consistent and perfectly right. Do you conceive that the payment of the Roman Cathohc hierarchy and clergy by the State would put an entl to the com- plaint at present existing in Ireland, of the support of a double order of clergy being cast upon the Catholic peasantry ? — I diink it would be a relief to them, and I think in course of time it would be acceptable enough to them. Do you conceive that, as far as that relief w^as felt, it would be an additional security to the Protestant estabhshment in Ireland ? — I think it would. Have you ever heard expressed in Ireland, or do you yourself feel any disposition as a Roman Catholic bishop, to interfere with the temporal autliority or property of the Protestant church .? — Not the slightest; if I was offered the tithes, I would reject them. Has it ever been suggested by any individuals amongst the Roman Catholic hierarchy, or do you yourself feel any desire that the Roman Catholic bishops should in any event be admitted 494 DB. MAGAURIN EXAMINED, into the House of Lords ? — Never ; I never had such an idea, and it never entered the mind of any ecclesiastic. You never heai'd that the admission of the Cathohc bishops into the House of Lords has entered into the contemplation of any of the leading Lay-catholics in Ireland ? — It never entered their minds. We have no ambition for those matters ; our great anxiety is for the peace and welfare of the country, and we are ready to make any sacrifices for the sake of promoting that object which is consistent with the discipline of the church. The Committee would wish to inquire, whether you see any objection on the part of the clergy to the relinquishment of all those dues and fees which they now receive for the performance of religious rites, or for their own support, in the event of their receiving an adequate provision from the State ? — There are some which they might not be willing to rehnquish ; for instance, per- quisites on marriages, and baptisms and funerals ; but the rule I would observe myself on such an event taking place would be, to have a meeting of the clergy to regulate " thus far you shall go and no farther ;"" I would conceive it my duty to do so. There is not, however, in the character of those fees or obliga- tions any thing so essential, as to make it impossible or difficult for the clergy to relinquish them ? — Nothing at all ; I believe in all churches they have generally what is called small dues- There is nothing in the oblation which adds either to the sanc- tity or force of any rehgious act performed ? — No. You think there would be no difliculty in relinquishing alto- gether such fees ? — No difficulty, as far as regards discipline. Do not those fees in many places form the principal portion of the income of the Catholic clergyman ? — Mostly. What is the marriage fee in your diocese ? — They are not allowed to charge more than three crowns. Are you aware, that in some Catholic countries, in France for instance, the holidays have been diminished to four ? — I did hear they were diminished. They Avere so diminished by permissive power granted from Rome .'* — I presume so. Is it not the custom of the people of Ireland to indulge in great licentiousness on those days ? — It is so, I fear ; and on Sundays too. In fact they almost cease to observe them religiously ? — They cease to keep them according to the spirit of them when they violate the rules prescribed. You were asked a question on the subject of the state of the chapels in your diocese, are the chapels generally in a good state, or otherwise ? — Some of them are, but the others are miserable enough. DR. MAGAUEIN EXAMINED. 4/9| When you answer that they are in a good state, do you mean that the buildings are in good repair, or that they are commen- surate to the wants of the people ? — They are, some of them, in a respectable situation, so far as regards the building outside ; they are not so decently finished inside as I could wish. Are there many places within your diocese where the chapels are entirely inadequate to the number of the congregation ? — I think in general all are so. Will you describe what occurs in such cases, or how the popu- lation can attend divine worship ?-— The only remedy we can adopt in order to avoid the awkwardness of remaining outside, is to increase the number of clergymen. At the chapel at Ballima- hon, I attend every morning at eight o"" clock, on Sundays, inva- riably, and my curate attends at ten and at twelve afterwards, and there is a large congregation each time. Are there other places within your diocese where service is celebrated three times .'' — Yes, there are. Are there any instances where it is celebrated more than three times ? — I think not- Are those three services on the Sunday entirely owing to the number of the congregation and the inadequacy of the means of receiving them, or at all those parishes would not two services be celebrated on Sunday ? — Not always two, in case where there are two chapels and only one clergyman. Are there any instances in which the congregation are obUged to kneel down in the open air ? — It does occur in many instances where there is only one mass. Is there any endowment in any part of your diocese for the sup- port of the parochial clergy, or is there any house for the resi- dence of any of them in any instance ? — There are a few instances since I came into the diocese where they have built parochial houses. In such instances has the house been built at the expense of the Catholic clergyman, or by a contribution from the parish ? — Principally by the clergyman, and partly by contribution. Will that house, in that case, be the property of his successors ? '-—So fai' as regards those with which I am concerned I think it must, because I have endeavoured always that it should be within the precincts of the chapel-yard. I have heard of instances where it has happened that the relation of the deceased refused to give up possession. Where the relation of the deceased has claimed as his heir.'' — ► Yes. Do you know any instances where ejectments have been brought to recover possession of such buildings .''—I have heard of them. 496 DB. MAGAtJlim EXAMINED. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee how your diocese is circumstanced with respect to parochial schools ? — The school-houses are miserable. Have you been enabled to do much of late years in the im- provement of them ? — A good deal ; but want of means leaves us much still to do. Have you a general school in each parish ? — There is a general school, and particular schools in each parish. How many schools are there in the large parishes ? — I suppose about five or six in large parishes. In what sort of buildings are they generally kept ? — Some of them very wretched ; in the towns they are better. Are the chapels generally used for the purpose of school- houses in country parishes ? — In some places they are ; I disap- prove of it, but sometimes of necessity they are allowed, from there being no other. Have many schools been founded or aided under the esta- blishment in Dublin, within your diocese ? — I do not think there is one at all, of the Catholic schools under my direction, so founded or aided. Will you mention to the Committee how funds are obtained to- wards those schools that are under your direction? — Subscrip- tions from priests, subscriptions from those Catholics that have some better means, whatever assistance I can afford, and mostly some stipend from the parents of the children. Have you also received assistance from Protestant proprietors ? — I have as often as I have applied to them, and I would have ap- plied to them more, but I did hope that this session of Parliament there would be something done for us in that way. You stated that at one time you had an intention of sending a nephew of your own to Clongowes ? — I had. To what school did you send your nephew ? — To Mr. Edge- worth"'s school, in the county of Longford. Your resolution led you to send him to a school kept under the direction of a Protestant gentleman, in preference to a school kept by the Jesuits? — I considered it a fit school, and it was convenient. Are there any rehgious distinctions of any kind in the school which is kept under the superintendence of Mr. Edgeworth ? — Not the slightest. It is attended indifferently by Protestants and Catholics ? — By Proteitants and Catholics ; in fact the words Protestant and Ca- thoHc are not only not mentioned, but I think, except from the division that takes place on Sundays, they do not know what re- ligion the others are of. How many young men are there in that establishment ? — Two hundred and fifty or thereabouts, so far as I have a recollection. DR. magaurin examined. 49*7 Does not this arise out of regulations that Mr. Edgeworth has there adopted, and which totally prevent the possibility of any spirit of proselytism being manifested ? — I think it is altogether his own regulation ; and such was my approbation of that school, in contradistinction to proselyting schools, that I sent my nephew there, to sanction the one in contradistinction to the others. Is any religious instruction given at that school ? — On two days in the week the catechism is taught, in one part of the building, to the Protestants, and in the other part of the building, to the Catholics ; and on the Sunday evening, when the one comes from the church, and the other from the chapel, they assemble for in- struction. Would you object to allow the same system of education to be extended to the lower orders ? — I am as anxious for the education of the poor of my diocese as any man can be, provided there is no interference with rehgion. Has the system of creating 40^. freeholds with a view to an elec- tion interest prevailed extensively in your diocese "^ — I presmne it has. Have you witnessed any occasions in which large bodies of the population have been brought to a sessions town for the purpose of registering freeholds ? — No, I have not witnessed ; I never at- tended such. You have not happened to be present at registries ? — No. Have you seen large bodies of freeholders coming in to be re- gistered, or returning from having registered ? — I have. Can you describe the general appearance of that class of indi- viduals ? — Wretched, in many instances. Do you conceive that class generally to consist of persons pos- sessing, in the real sense of the. law, a freehold of 40.S'. value ? — I rather think they do ; if they were to dispose of their freeholds, they would generally get 40.?. ; but in many instances I do not think they are worth it. Are they not in a state of entire dependance upon the landlords in general ? — 'They are. Is that owing to the lower class of occupying tenant being ge- nerally in arrear for rent, or is it owing to other circumstances of his situation giving the landlord a powerful influence over him ? — I suppose both. %*■" Does the system of joint tenancy prevail much in the part of the country with which you are acquainted ? — I think it does ; but I think it is doing away a good deal. Have you ever heard of a candidate canvassing the 40^". free- holders? — Yes; I have. In frequent instances? — In some instances, 2 K 498 BR. MAGAFRIlSf EXAMINED. Against their landlord ? — Against their landlord. Do you mean without having obtained permission from the pro- prietor ? — I think in some instances without his consent ; but I think it is a matter of etiquette in general not to do so. In point of fact, do you believe that the general class of 40^. freeholders in those counties exercise the right of franchise inde^ pendent of, or at the absolute dictation of, the person under whom they derive their leases ?— I think, in general, they go along with their landlords ; but in some instances they do not. What is the general practice ? — I think generally they do. Have you any doubt that, generally speaking, the tenants of an estate vote with the proprietor of the soil ? — I know some in- stances where they did not, but I think in general they do. Have you the least doubt that they are driven in to vote with- out any consultation of them or of their disposition ? — I have not. I think, in general, when they are called upon, they go along with their landlords without ever reflecting. Have you the least doubt that they are called upon to vote without ever consulting them as to what their own disposition isj or informing them how their vote is to be given till they appear at the poll ? — I think that is the practice in general. Do yovi think that that class of persons would feel injured or benefited, or that they would have much public feeling of any sort, upon that franchise being disallowed ? — I tliink each indivi- dual would feel no loss, but I think there would be a degree of dissatisfaction among the body at large. Can you say from what cause or principle that would arise ? — They Avould conceive it was taking away so much from them, and there would not be wanting individuals who, from design, would be stirring up their minds to think so. But if the great majority of the freeholders, such as you have described, are brought up to the poll, not only without any con- sultation of what their disposition is, but without any information even of the name of the candidate for whom they are to vote, till they are produced upon the hustings, do you think that such per- sons would feel that they were deprived of any political privilege ? — They generally act with their landlord ; they have the power of acting otherwise. Will you state what the result of their acting otherwise would be upon the tenantry of any large property within your know- ledge ? — I dare say to incur the dissatisfaction of the landlord, and if they owed arrears of rent to press them for it. Do you not think that perjury is committed to a very great ex- tent in consequence of this system ? — I do. Both upon registries and upon elections ? — Yes. DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. 499 Do you not think that any alteration of the law, which was to i'cformi;his system, would in itself produce a great improvement in the morality of the people .? — I hope so. You cannot doubt that the present system demoralizes them extremely ? — I think it does. Have you any doubt that a system under which perjury pre- vails to the extent you have admitted must of itself demoralize the country ? — Indeed I think it is a demoralizing system. The great mass of the 40^. freeholders in the part of Ireland with which you are acquainted are Catholics, are they not ? — Generally. Do you not conceive the effect of altering the franchise, and striking off the 40.?. votes, as it is called, would be to impress upon the Catholic population at large a feeling that their religion had sustained a loss ? — No doubt. Would not the effect of it be that they would feel that the Ca- tholic influence of Ireland was diminished ? — I think so. Would not that be a great source of dissatisfaction that would be felt at any attempt to alter the 40 Mnrtii, 1825. The lord PRESIDENT in the Chatr. Anthony Richard Blake ^ Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : * You are Chief Remembrancer of the Exchequer in Ireland ? — I am. Are you of opinion that the diffusion of education in Ire- land, and the improvement of the condition of the people, must necessarily lead them to feel more strongly the situation in which they are placed, under the civil disabilities under which they now labour ? — I certainly think so ; I think that is the tendency of the law ; just as a man advances in society the law checks his course, and thus rendering him discontented, renders his influence the means of inflaming all within its reach. Do you think the people are generally aware of the extent to which offices are open to them in Ireland ? — I think the people consider that there is in the law a spirit of hostility to them and their religion. Are there not a great many offices or situations open to the Roman Catholics by law, from which nevertheless they are generally practically excluded by the spirit which prevails in different parts of the country ? — I cannot speak much of the interior of the country, with respect to those offices which are of a local nature, and disposed of by what may be consi- dered local authorities. The Roman Catholics have certainly been eligible to the office of assistant barrister for a number of years ; but until lately no Roman Catholic was appointed to it. I would take the liberty, however, of adding, that there were not formerly amongst the Roman Catholics so many can- didates for promotion whose claims were grounded on station in their profession, as at present ; because every year, in some • A great portion of the evidence given by Mr. Blake before the Committee of the House of Lords, being, necessarily, a repetition of that which he gave befote the House of Commons, it has been omitted in this volume. 502 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. degree, adds to the number of Roman Catholic barristers, and adds to the qualifications of those already at the Bar. Do you think the feeling you have described general among the Catholics at present ? — So far as my opinion goes, it cer- tainly is. That, without understanding precisely the question, there is a general feeling that the law, as it stands at present, is in hostility to them and to their religion? — They consider that the Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ireland are by law divided into two nations ; a dominant and an inferior nation. They feel that they are of the inferior nation ; and this sense of inferiority is kept in a state of perpetual inflammation by the constant discussion of the Catholic Question. You think that is genei*ally felt among all ranks of the Roman Catholics ? — I believe it to be so. I have, on these cursory visits to which I have alluded, occasionally spoken to the lower orders of the people, and I found gi"eat eagerness in their minds in regard to what they called the emancipation. Do you conceive that they annex to the idea of emancipation the idea of the re-establishment of the Roman Catholic enurch in Ireland ? — I do not think they do. I think they have a con- fused notion in their minds, that they do not stand on an equal footing with the Protestants. Do you think that they mean by emancipation, that the Roman Catholics should be rather uppermost than the Pro- testants ? — I think not. I recollect asking a peasant what he meant by emancipation ; his answer to me was, I should like to vote for your honour to go into parliament, or to see you a judge. By emancipation they mean equality ? — They mean equa- lity ; a man to have equal rights with the Protestant. I re- collect last year, when discussions took place with reference to the Catholics of England, there was something said of the danger of allowing Roman Catholics to sit upon the Bench, to be mixed with Protestants in the administration of justice; it is quite impossible for any person, who was not in Ireland at the time, to conceive the feeling that this created amongst the Roman Catholics. They derived an argument from it, that they could not be secure if the Bench was exclusively Pro- testant ; they asked, " If you think you would not be secure if there were any Catholics on the Bench, how can we be secure when none but Protestants are there ?"" Do you think, if they were to obtain what is called emanci- pation, they would be content without the restoration of the church revenues to the Catholic clergy ? — I am perfectly sa- tisfied that they would rather deprecate that restoration than A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 503 wish for it. I think they would be very glad to get rid of tithes altogether, but that they would not wish to see them transferred to their own clergy ; they would rather the Ro- man Catholic clergy should remain in their present state. Do you speak of that as the opinion of the peasantry, or persons above them ? — I speak of it as the opinion of the pea- santry. They complain now of the dues which they have to pay to the Roman Catholic clergy ; they sometimes consider them too well off. One of the complaints of the Ribbon-men, in the year 1820, was of the amount of the dues they had to pay to their own clergy ; they complained of them in common, with the tithes. Do you think that an increase can take place in the wealth and property of the people, without increasing the feelings of discontent and [of dissatisfaction created by the present state, of the law ? — 1 think the necessary tendency of an increase of wealth and knowledge at present among the Roman Ca- tholics is the increase of discontent. The injurious operation of the disabling statutes is particularly felt by the men of pro- perty and education. Therefore, in proportion as men of that description increase, discontent must increase, and this not in the particular class only, but through the whole body, because such men constitute the influential part of societ}'^, and natu- rally give to the body to which they belong its general spirit and tone. Is not the, present unequal state of the law, with regard to Catholics and Protestants, felt to be injurious to individuals, and galling to all? — I should apprehend there could be no doubt that it is so felt. What practical effect do you conceive to be produced on the administration of justice in Ireland, by the unequal privi- leges of Catholics and Protestants ? — I conscientiously believe, that the administration of justice in the superior courts iu Ireland, with which alone I am acquainted, is as pure and honest as the administration of justice in any part of the world; that is my honest and conscientious opinion. But the state of the law with respect to the Roman Catholics, makes the mul- titude regard the general administration of justice M'ith distrust. Have you any information whether the Catholics have in- creased greatly in the acquisition of landed property of late years ? — Yes, I have ; upon several sales which have lately taken place in Ireland, Catholics have been the purchasers. Do you not think it would be necessary to accompany a measure of state provision for Roman Catholic priests with some legal provision, which should make it illegal, perhaps prohibit, under a penalty, the exaction of some of the fees from 504 A. R. BLAKE, KSQ,. EXAMINED. which the maintenance of the priests is now derived ? — I should think the object might be attained by a wise administration of the regium donum ; which I would prefer to legal enactments. Do you apprehend that the pope is in the habit of taking any measure for the purpose of obtaining any knowledge of the individuals recommended to him for bishops? — I apprehend not, otherwise than through a communication with the Irish Bishops. Subsequent to such recommendation? — In some instances subsequent to such recommendation, that is, where there are rival recommendations ; I apprehend not otherwise. Do you really think that an arrangement for the payment of the clergy, would give anything like complete satisfaction to the Roman Catholic hierarchy ? — I should feel great difficulty in saying that any arrangement would give complete satisfaction to any body of men ; but, speaking comparatively, I should say it would give to them very great satisfaction ; as much sa- tisfaction as the state, in any general arrangement, can in any case well hope to give. And would probably produce content ? — I am satisfied that it would. Are you enabled to state, whether since the regium donum has been established with respect to the Presbyterians, it has been found expedient to withhold it in any particular instances ? — I have understood in none. Are you aware of an}^ communication carried on between the Roman Catholics of Ireland and the pope, and the nature of it.^ — I am not aware of any communication being carried on, except between the bishops and the pope; the nature of that, I believe, is purely ecclesiastical. I have heard the bishops declare, and have been solemnly assured by them, that they are forbidden to touch upon any matter of a political nature. Do you believe that communication to be of any considerable extent ? — I believe not. That it has reference to mere matters of necessary form 1 — It has a reference to mere matters of necessary form ; the Ro- man Catholics of Ireland are rather jealous of the power of the pope than otherwise. Is it not the interest of the Roman Catholic church of Ire- land to have as little to do with the pope as possible, and to connect themselves as much as possible with the established go- vernment, the government of the country ? — I think it is. Can you state whether, with respect to the power of the parish priest, as to confession and absolution, he does not con- sider himself bound to secrecy as to what may be communicated to him by the person so confessing ?^I apprehend so. A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 505 Does not that even extend to evidence in a court of justice ?— Certainly. And to cases of treason ? — To cases of treason ; and the clergy of the established church, by the canons, are also enjoined to secrecy. I speak only of what the canons require of them. I allude to the 113th of the canons of 1616. I have heard the clergy justify the practice, by stating that persons cannot be prejudiced by their hearing of a crime having been committed, or of an intention to commit a crime ; the only effect is, that they may prevent the intention being acted upon, or, knowing of a crime, endeavour to turn the heart of the person who had committed it. Are you aware whether the pope derives any revenue from Ireland ? — I really am not ; but I never heard it surmised that he did. Is the existence of the Roman Catholic religion in its present state in Ireland, of the slightest advantage to the pope in any way ? — In point of feeling, he must be gratified by having so extensive a body as the Roman Catholics of Ireland in commu- nion with the church of Rome. But he derives no temporal advantage ? — I apprehend not. In stating, that in consequence of the diffusion of education, and the opening of the professions to Roman Catholics, consi- derable wealth has flown in upon them, and that they have ex- pended that wealth much in the purchase of land ; has it fallen in your way, in the high office you hold, to know whether any objection is made by Roman Catholics to investing their ac- quirements in land on Protestant titles ? — Quite the contrary ; the great object in making out title in Ireland, is to trace it to a patent from the crown, and most patents were consequent on forfeiture. Are you to be understood, that the general mass of Catholics so purchasing, do now hold under Protestant titles ? — Certainly. Would the raising of the elective qualification materially diminish the influence of the priests over the voters at elections ? — I think it would; and I think, in every view of it, it is a measure essential to the peace of Ireland. Have the goodness to explain the manner in which that measure would operate ? — I think it would operate beneficially in various views of it, as connected with political power, as connected with the subdividing of land, and as connected with the want of a respectable yeomanry in Ireland. It would ope- rate usefully, in point of political power, because it would give extended effect in Ireland, to what I conceive to be a vital principle of the British constitution, that property and not num- bers should constitute the b^sis of political ascendency in the 506 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. state. It would operate to prevent multiplied sub-divisions of land, by taking away from landlords the temptation to such divisions, which the hope of extending political influence creates ; it would tend to encourage the growth of a i-espect- able yeomanry in the country, in the same proportion, and upon the same principle ; because landlords who wished to have political influence, and who could only have it through a respectable class of freeholders, would be induced to promote the existence of such a class. To what sura would it be necessary to raise the elective qualification, in order to eflFect these objects ? — I am rather disposed at present to speak with reference to the principle, than to give a standard for regulating it. My own notion is rather aristocratical upon the point ; I should be disposed to carry it as high as 201. a year. I have stated that in another place. I have since found, from conversing with many Irish members, that this was considered too high a qualification; that a 10/. qualification would be considered a more proper one to fix on. In my view of the subject, it is not so material to consider whether a person should have 10/. a year, or 20/. a year, as it is to consider the means of securing something like real inde- pendence ; and if I could have a reasonable certainty, that the person who was to come forward and represent himself as a 10/. freeholder, or even perhaps a 51. freeholder, had really an interest of that description, I should certainly say, that raising it to 51. might be suflficient ; but my fear is, from experience of the readiness of persons to swear to 40fNELL, V.SQ. EXAMtNED. family and name of O'Connell in the county of Kerry ; and our presentation, I may call it, is a right to be received in the university of Paris, unless there be particular objection to the individual. We consider in ourselves vested the right of presentation. With respect to those who go over to the diocesan seminaries, how is the selection made ? — I believe there is no selection ; that those who go there are supernumeraries, whom our bishops hav6 not an opportunity of having educated, either at Maynooth or in their own diocesan seminaries ; that that system of education is liot encouraged, as I believe, by the Catholic bishops in Ireland ; but having more subjects than they can educate, there is a surplus of them that go to France for education. Irish Catholic priests are in great demand ; they are in demand in England ; they are very much in demand in all the United States ; they are in de- mand in Canada ; in all the British colonies ; and even New South Wales is claiming a portion of them. How are they recommended by the Irish bishop to the bishop in France ? — Merely by an exeat, consisting of a testimonial of good character ; I know of no other. The person claims that as a right, if he has conducted himself with strict morality, and is competent in point of classical literature. At what age are they sent over to those diocesan seminaries ? — Young, certainly ; that is, from sixteen to nineteen, or twenty, or twenty-one perhaps. In our burses in Paris we have put in very young persons; at present my family has none, but for secular education. Upon the principles upon which you have been answering some of the last questions, and in the event of any regulation respecting the Roman Catholic clergy, do you think that a separate educa- tion for the Roman Catholic clergy would be an advisable thing to continue or not ? — My own wish would be very much, that the Catholic and Protestant clergy should be educated in the same : university. I think it would be a most desirable thing; and I think it would be one of the consequences that would follow very shortly after emancipation. There are mutual mistakes and mutual prejudices that would prevent its being done perhaps at the present moment, Avith the cordiality that ought to accomjjany it, in order to make it useful. It is matter of speculative opinion ; but I am sure it would be very much the wish of the Catholic laity to see the clergy of the three principal persuasions educated in the same university, as it is very desirable that the laity of all persuasions should be educated together. In the event of its being found expedient to extend the present system of education to the Roman Catholic clergy, with a view to the accommodation of great numbers, would there be any DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 547 great difficulty in connecting in Ireland a more extensive system of education in general science with that of theology ? — No diffi- culty at all, if the government thought fit to grant sufficient funds for that purpose. Are the Committee to understand, that that extension of the means of educating the Roman CathoKc clergy in Ireland, which you state to be desirable, would not be desirable, if confined to the present system of exclusive education, such as prevails in the college at Maynooth ? — I did not mean to convey that idea at all. I should, from my opinion, be of the two more anxious to in- crease the means of Maynooth college, if there were not an equa- lization of civil rights, leaving to the combination of future events the mode in which the clergy of all persuasions should be edu- cated in the same university. I should think it still more de- sirable, in the event of our remaining as we are, that Ma)Tiootli should be enriched, so as to take away the temptation and the ne- cessity of foreign education, Avhich I take to be dangerous prin- cipally in the event of the continuance of the existing order of things. The question refers to the equalization of civil rights ? — I think that the college of Maynooth ought to be increased ; it being in my opinion desirable that the Catholic clergy should be educated at home, but the funds are inadequate. Do you think the establishment of a state provision for the Catholic clergy would produce any alteration in the character, conduct, and influence of the Catholic priests ? — If the state pro- vision were not accompanied with the equalization of civil rights it would not be accepted of at all, I take it ; and even if it were, the effect of it would be to destroy the influence and respecta- bility of the Catholic priests, in my humble judgment. In the event of the equalization, I do not think it would destroy their influence at all ; I think that it would have some tendency to im- prove the character ; but however mistaken I may be, my own opinion is very high of the general character of the Catholic clergy at present, and therefore I speak of improvement with diffidence and doubt. From your knowledge of the feelings of the Catholic clergy, are you convinced that, as accompanying emancipation, they would be generally ready and willing to receive state provision ? — I have not the least doubt upon my mind that they would be quite ready, as accompanying emancipation. I have as little doubt that they Avould be decided in their rejection if off'ered to them without the equahzation of civil rights — what we call eman- cipation. Do you think the Catholics of Ireland would be content to ex- change the indirect political power they now possess, by means of 2 N 2 648 DANIEL ©"'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. the 40^. freeholders, for the direct advantage of the pohtical in- fluence they would possess if admitted to the enjoyment of equal rights ? — There may be some little clamour upon that subject, but it would be an irrational one, and, I think, easily put down. I am convinced the Catholics would very readily make that ex- change, particularly as accompanied by all the other advantages that they would look to from a participation generally with the Protestants of power. I do not think there would be any diffi- culty in coupling that with the measure of emancipation ; in my own judgment there would be none. Do you not think that, in consequence of the present complete union existing among all the Catholics in Ireland, and in conse- quence of their being now under the guidance of men capable of appreciating the real benefit which would be derived to the coun- try from the equalization of civil privileges, by means of that in- fluence, those persons so seeing the real advantages of the mea- sure, would be able to quiet any jealousies or animosities which might arise from the supposed change of the law on the part of the 40?. freeholders.- — Without venturing to adopt any part of the question, which implies a complimentary expression, I have no doubt that would be easily effected by the persons who have been acting for the body at large hitherto. 1 know it would be very much their desire to do it ; and I can answer that measures have been already taken upon the persuasion, such as there is, of carrying emancipation. I have reason to hope that those preli- minary measures have met with success. Do you not think that the 40^. freeholders themselves, or the lower classes in Ireland, would have a disposition to concede, even independent of the interference of the higher classes ? — My opinion is, that down to the lowest class of the Catholics in Ire- land, the emancipation is considered an object of value, for the attainment of which they would make sacrifices ; and therefore, I think that the 40=?. freeholders must participate in the general feeling on that subject, and would be ready to contribute to the general advantage, even at a loss to themselves. Are you convinced, from your knowledge of the Roman Ca- tholic body in Ireland, that the statements which have been made, that the question of Emancipation does not affect the feelings of the lower classes in Ireland, are unfounded ? — I am quite con- vinced that they are unfounded ; and many of the answers I have given shew that such conviction is strongly upon my mind. I would venture to say, that I know that statement is unfounded ; the collection of the Catholic rent proves that pretty well. Do you think that the objection which might be made to the raising the qualification from 40^. to 10/. would proceed from the person who now is described as the 40^. freeholder, or rather from DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 549 a middle description, the person who outrageously creates those freeholders for the purpose of disposing of them, and might be called a freehold jobber? — I am persuaded it would proceed very much from the person described as a freehold jobber; and that the excitation of the 4:0s. freeholders would be attributed, in a great measure, to such jobbers. Under the present system, would not a freehold jobber, whose estate might let for 2,000/. a year, be able to get more votes than a person who had 20,000/. a year would have upon his estate, if that estate were properly managed ? — Certainly ; the freehold job- ber whose estate might let for 2,000/. a year might have an im- mense number of votes without diminishing his rent at all ; while a gentleman of 20,000/. a year might have a less number by ma- naging his property as he ought to do. Does not such a system then give a direct premium in the mis- management of property ? — It certainly does ; and there are com- plaints made even to the clergymen, of wretches being compelled to swear to a 40s. freehold where they cannot in conscience do it. Is not therefore the present system of 40^. freeholds in Ireland liable to all the evils of universal suffrage, adding to it the evil of perjury? — I should think, that universal suffrage would correct the e\i\ ; and I am the less competent therefore from that opinion to answer the question ; my opinion being, that universal suffrage would correct the evil, by taking away the inducement to jobbings and the means of jobbing, and the perjury also. You did not mean to say, that your opinion was, that universal suffrage was a good ; but that it was preferable to the system stated ? — Yes, I did. I meant to say, that my opinion, how- ever erroneous it may be deemed, is, that universal suffrage, un- der proper regulations, would be a real goo(^ Do you think that the feeling of dissatisfaction under the pre- sent disqualifying laws is increasing among the Cathohcs in Ire- land ? — Certainly; increasing as the Catholics increase in wealth and numbers, which they are doing. The dissatisfaction is increasing very much, and as they become more intelligent ; personally to myself, it oppresses me more from my success in my profession. You are of opinion, therefore, that whatever evils may, up to the present moment, have arisen from the existing state of dis- qualification under which the Catholics labour, those evils must increase instead of being diminished, while the present laws exist ? — I am sure, that so far as the evils of Ireland are to be attributed to the penal code, they must accumulate instead of di- minish by the continuance ; holding out, as they do, a tempta- tion to a foreign enemy, and mixed with other matters rendering life and property insecure. Is there any Catholic tenet Avhatever that renders a divided allegiance necessary in politieal objects, between the govermnent 550 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESft. EXAMINED. and any other foreign power whatsoever ? — Certainly not ; the al- legiance of the Roman Catholics, to be consistent with their reli- gion, should be undivided and unconditional ; that is, subject to no other condition than that which the law of the particular state directs it should be attended with. You apply that to civil and political allegiance ? — To any thing directly or indirectly civil or political ; if allegiance be coupled with spirituality, certainly not with spirituality, because the spi- ritual head of the Catholic church is in Rome ; but if he were to invade these dominions, or order any invasion, there is no Pro- testant would be more ready, or shew more decided zeal in op- posing him, at every peril, than the Catholics, to the extreme of personal hostility, and to the loss of life. Is there any difference, according to the Roman Catholic te- nets, between the allegiance which a Roman Catholic owes to a Protestant sovereign, and the allegiance which he owes to a Ca- tholic sovereign ? — Not the least ; they are precisely the same ; unqualified as to all things temporal and civil, whether directly or indirectly. In the case of a Roman Catholic sovereign or a Protestant sovereign, they are equally regarded as to spiritual points ? — So equally, as not to have any exception whatever. In such case the King being a Catholic makes not the least difference ; the King being a Protestant makes not the least diff'erence. Die LuncB, 21° Martii 1825. The LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair. The Reverend James Doyle, D.D. is called in and Examined as follows * : Have the goodness to inform the Committee in what manner the Roman Catholic bishops are appointed in Ireland ? — They are recommended to the Pope by the clergy, or some portion of the clergy of the vacant diocese, and this recommendation is generally accompanied by one from the metropolitan andsuff'ra- gans of the province in which such vacancy exists ; and upon this recommendation the appointment generally takes place. I believe in every instance. Is the mode of proposing the candidate or candidates to the * The number of pages to which this volume has reached, has rendered it im- possible to give more than a small portion of Dr. Doyle's evidence before the Committee of the House of Lords. The parts omitted chiefly consist of evidence similai to that given by Dr. Doyle before the House of Commons. DR. DOVLE EXAMINBD. 551 Pope, uniform in the different Roman Catholic dioceses of Ire- land? — In substance it is, but not in the detail; for in some dioceses there are chapters, in others there are none. Where there is a chapter, the persons to be recommended to his Holi- ness are generally, in the first instance, elected by the chapter, and afterwards the names of those persons so elected by the chapter are submitted to the metropolitan and suffragans ; these latter concur in the election, by approving of the persons whose names have been thus submitted to them, or they make, in their communications to the Pope, such remarks about their character or fitness as may seem proper to them, and then the appointment succeeds. If there should be no chapter in the diocese, the clergy, who are called parish priests, assemble, and elect in the same form as the chapters do where such chapters exist ; and there have been some instances where all the serving clergy of the diocese have been permitted to vote at such elec- tions. I should observe, in explanation of what I first said, that the electors, whosoever tney may be, elect not one only, but three ; however, the person whose name is placed first among those three is, I believe, uniformly appointed by the Pope. How long has this mode of nominating candidates to the Pope been in practice in Ireland ? — To the best of my recollection, it has prevailed universally in Ii'eland since the death of the late Pretender. Prince Charles Edward? — Yes. In the interval between the Revolution and the death of the Pretender, by whom was the nomination made to the Pope ? — I do not know that there was an uniform rule ; but I have heard that during that period, King James, after his abdication, and his son after the decease of the father, did often recommend to the Holy See persons to be appointed to bishoprics in Ireland. Previous to the revolution, by whom was the recommendation made? — Previous to the revolution, both in the time of the Tudors and the Stuarts, when Cathohcs, the recommendation was generally made in this way, that the reigning sovereign sent a conge d'elire to the chapter, and they elected upon that, and the nomination followed. The history of our church presents us with some cases where the chapter pretended to the right of presentation independently of the sovereign ; however, I believe it was an establislied custom in the beginning of the reign of Henry the Eighth, that the election should be of the kind I have first mentioned. Really by the Sovereign ?-— Yes, but in the mode I have mentioned. By conge d'elire and the Sovereign recommending ? — Yes. Do you know whether the recommendations of the Stuarts, 552 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. after the revolution, were universally attended to ? — When made I cannot say that they were not, but I believe they did not recommend in every instance. Do you apply that to the grandson of James the Second, as well as the son .'' — Perhaps I should not be correct if I extended it to the grandson, without consulting books I cannot speak with accuracy. That privilege of recommendation was not extended to Car- dinal York? — I have never heard that it was in any case. Was the mode of recommendation uniform from Henry the Eighth downwards ? — There was no Catholic sovereign but Mary after Henry the Eighth, with the exception of James the Second. But in the case of James the Second, and the subsequent cases to which you have alluded, were the reconnnendations made in the same form as they were by Henry the Eighth ? — After the abdication of the Stuarts, I do not believe there was any regu- larity, because they, being in a foreign country, could nave no communication with the chapters in Ireland, nor did those chapters always exist in Ireland ; so I think, that during the period of their living upon the Continent, when applied to to employ, as it were, their influence at Rome, they recommended an individual as if from themselves personally to his Holiness, and that the appointment of such individual almost uniformly followed upon such their recommendation. Are the Committee to understand that the nomination of a certain number of candidates to the Pope took place subse- quently to the cessation of the privilege of nomination which had been allowed to the Stuart family ? — I think so. Can you state the manner in which the Catholic bishops of Ireland were elected during the time of Queen Elizabeth, James the First, and Charles the First? — During that time our history shews that the appointments were made by the Pope, some- times at the entreaty of a nobleman resident in Ireland, some- times through this or that influence, but there was no uniform rule. Are there instances of the issuing a conge d'elire by the sovereigns during those reigns ? — No, not one, to my know- ledge ; I do not think they ever attempted it. During those reigns the Pope exercised a direct nomination ? — Yes. Do you know by what autliority the different modes of re- commending candidates to the Pope in the different dioceses were established? — It grew up, I may say, gradually. The candidates are nominated to the Propaganda, ai*e they not ; is not that the channel to the Pope ? — The usual channel is through the Prefect to the Propaganda. DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 553 Are there any instances of the Pope rejecting the Avhole of the candidates ? — I know of not one. Are there in Ireland translations from one diocese to another, with the exception of from the bishoprics to the arch- bishoprics ? — There might ; but I have no knowledge that such translations did occur. Is it now the practice ? — No ; it is not at present. Are there any instances of persons appointed in later times not natives of Ireland ? — No, in no instance whatever ; the last person, being a foreigner, and appointed to a see in Ireland, seems to me to have lived about the year 1645. I infer that he was a stranger, because I find his signature to a council held about that time in the province of Dublin ; and he is called by a name, which to me appears to be that of a Spaniard. How- ever, it is very probable that he might have been an Irishman, who adopted that Spanish name during his studies abroad. Is the power of the Pope to nominate directly either a native or a foreigner to a Roman Catholic bishopric in Ireland, now acknowledged by the Roman Catholic church in Ireland r — It is acknowledged by us; he has such power. Has it, in point of fact, ever been exercised? — It has not, in point of fact, ever been exercised to my knoAvledge. Has any attempt been made to exercise it ? — There has not. But he has the right ? — I conceive he has. What oaths are taken by the bishops ? — We take the oath of canonical obedience to the Pope, which means that we are to obey him as the head of the church, according or agreeably to th.e discipline as found established in the sacred canons. We insert in the oath a clause. Salvo meo Ordine ; which implies, that the obedience which we promise to him is not to be under- stood so as to trench upon our own rights as bishops, or any rights of the church in which we are bishops. Can you furnish the Committee with a copy of that oath }—' I have not got one ; but there is a Roman Catholic bishop resi- dent in London, who would willingly furnish such an oath,— Doctor Poynter, the vicar apostolic. Are there more oaths than one, or more engagements or ac- knowledgments than one ? — Only one oath, and that oath, as found in the pontifical, has been modified by the late Pope, at the express desire of the Catholic bishops in Ireland ; for there was one expression in it, which seemed to give oft'ence to persons professing a religion difl:erent from ours. It was this : " Here- ticos persequar et impugnabo." The word persequar was un- derstood by persons differing from us as if it imposed an obliga- tion upon us, by the oath, to persecute in the ordinary meaning of that phrase. The meaning which we attributed to it, was only to follow up by argunieiit; and to convince, if we could, by 554 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. proof. However, as it was an ambiguous expression, it was struck out of the oath. There was also an objection taken, that the promise of obedience, though canonically made to the Pope, interfered with our allegiance to our lawful sovereign ; and therefore there was a clause inserted in the oath which removed that objection ; for it says, " Hsec omnia et singula eo inviola- bilius observabo quo certior sum nihil in illis contineri quod fidelitati mese erga Serenissimum Magnae Britannise et Hiberniae Regem ejusque ad Thronum Successores debite advei^ari possit. Sic me Deus adjuvet et hsec Sancta Dei Evangelia." Is there any other oath taken ? — There is no other oath taken by a bishop, except the ordinary profession of faith, which every Christian may take as well as we. There is an oath taken by archbishops upon receiving the Pallium from Rome, but I am not acquainted with the form or substance of it, as I never had occasion to take it. When you state that in the oath you have alluded to, you swear that you will obey the Pope, agreeably to the canons ; do you mean that each individual taking that oath reserves to himself the right of judgment how far what is commanded is conformable to those canons? — I can say that as individuals we do reserve to ourselves that right. But then there are many canons which are of dubious import : there are others of them which define the rights and privileges of bishops : those are known to us: but upon those it is not the individual judgment of the man that he is to trust to, but the universal understanding of the bishops of the country in which he dwells. For instance the bishops of France, and I might add, the bishops of Ireland, have always maintained that many privileges belong to their order in their respective countries, which the bishops of Belgium for in- stance, do not claim for themselves. Thus then the privileges of the episcopal order depend upon canons that are not always uni- versal, but which may be local ; and each nation, or the bishops of each nation, understand by that clause of the oath, the privi- leges with which their own order is vested, not only by the uni- versal canons of the church, but by the canons and usages of their own particular nation. When you state, by the canons of their own particular na- tion, do you mean the literal sense of those canons, or the meaning they have received in the Roman Catholic church of that nation ? — I mean the canons enacted in national councils in that nation. Can you state in what respect the national canons received in Ireland, or any particular construction put upon the general canons, is different from those which are received in other coun- tries? — For instance a particular church or the canons of a parti- cular council, might define, that the authority of a general council DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 555 was superior to that of the Pope ; such canon may be received, for instance, in Ireland or in France, and might not be received in Italy or in Spain. It is in that sense I spoke. I might per- haps deviate from the exactness I wish to observe if I descended more minutely to particulars, and I have on that account taken a proposition which seems to be clear, and at the same time to touch the case as closely as perhajDS it can be touched. When you use the words Salvo meo Ordine, what are the dis- tinctive privileges of the Irish church which you reserve ? — By the canons of the church, I being once inducted into a bishop- ric, cannot be removed from that bishopric unless I commit a canonical fault, am tried for it, and sentence passed upon me. There is a case where the canons secure to me a right which every other man has not : for instance the vicar apostolic who lives in this town, though he were to do nothing at all that was faulty, could by a mere rescript from the Pope be suspended from his office, or deprived entirely of it. I have a right from which I cannot be removed more than the Pope can be removed from his see, unless I transgress the law of God, and am tried and convicted of the offence. Is that a privilege peculiar to the bishops of Ireland by the general canons of the church, or in consequence of any thing peculiar in Ireland ? — I can call it a privilege, but it is a right belonging to every bishop of the universe regularly inducted into his see. Do you conceive your obligations towards the Pope to be limited by the words contained in your oath? — Unquestionably. That it is not to go beyond what is expressed by the oath? — Yes. If the Pope were to reject any recommendation of any persons proposed to be appointed bishop in Ireland, what would be the consequence; must there be a fresh election? — That is a case which has not hitherto occurred in the history of our church, as far as I am acquainted with it; and it would be too_much for so humble an individual as I am, to state what resolution the per- sons concerned would come to in that event. Would you object to an arrangement by which the crown should have an influence in the election of Roman Catholic bishops, the Roman Catholic church being of course secured on all religious and ecclesiastical points, supposing such arrange- ment could be made with the consent of the Pope? — As an indi- vidual, I would object to any arrangement, even sanctioned by the Pope, which would go to give an influence, direct or in- direct, to the Sovereign in the appointment of Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland. Are there any peculia,r circumstances in the slate of Ireland 556 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. which would render such an arrangement objectionable there, which has not been found objectionable in most of the countries on the continent where the population is Roman Catholic and the Sovereign Protestant? — The reasons which appear to me principally are these : — In general, the ministers of state in every country are anxious to intermeddle in ecclesiastical mat- ters, and draw to themselves the patronage of the church, and thereby frequently lesson the liberties of the people. I feel that I am not only an ecclesiastic, but also a subject of the king, and entitled to participate in the liberties of the constitution of the country; and I would therefore not agree to any regulation which would have a tendency to diminish the rights or liberties of the people, or to vest in the king's government a powerful influence. In the second place, as a religionist, I have observed since I came to manhood, that there have been uninterrupted and strong efforts made to injure, and even to subvert the Ca- tholic religion in Ireland. I have heard of private instructions being sent by the British government to their Agent in Canada, to withdraw from certain places there, Catholic missionaries, and substitute less zealous for more zealous men, as well as to diminish their number. Viewing, then, the systematic and persevering and strong efforts that have been made for two or three centuries past in Ireland, to impair our religion, and which efforts have been perhaps increased rather than lessened of late years; and seeing also, in the fact to which I have alluded, the temper which still prevails in the councils of his majesty, or in some departments of them, I would, under all circumstances, protest against vesting the right alluded to in His Majesty's government. When were those instructions sent to Canada by His Ma- jesty's government.'' — I will ascertain before to-morrow the pre- cise time when they were sent ; but it was in the time of the late Lord Castlereagh. The matter was mentioned to his lordship by a Roman Catholic prelate, and he seemed to wish to make inquiry into it, as if he had been previously unacquainted with it; but the fact seems to us to have been ascertained beyond all doubt. Might there not have been other reasons for objecting to those missionaries besides their religious zeal ? — It is very pos- sible there might have been ; but as far as the fact was dis- covered by us, it appeared to have been founded on that motive only- Should you have any objection to this arrangement, that, previous to the institution of the bishop, the names of the per- sons to be recommended to the Pope should be communicated to His Majesty's government, leaving it of course open to his DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 5.57 Majesty's govermnent to make any such communications on the subject of such uppointment to the Pope as they might deem necessary? — I would have an objection to that. I will take, foi* instance, Silesia, a province in Germany, formerly belonging to the court of Vienna, and which was ceded to the King of Prussia : the inhabitants of that country were almost exclusively Ca- tholics, and being so, the nobility and gentry being Catholic; I should think any efforts which the Sovereign or his council might make to subvert the Catholic religion could not be suc- cessful against the people, who were thus united and almost exclusively Catholic. But in Ireland it is not so: much the greater part of the gentry are Protestants, the greater part of the property of the country is held b}^ Protestants ; their influ- ence is exceedingly great; their numbers too very respectable: when to these there are added the agents of government, if they all co-operate in seeking to subvert the religion of the multi- tude, T think they would have much greater chance of success than the jagents of the government of Prussia in Silesia would have ; therefore, an arrangement which might be unexception- able in Silesia znight be very objectionable in Ireland. If the person to be appointed bishop must be a person re- commended either by the Irish chapter or the Irish clergy, and subsequently approved by the Pope, how could the giving to the government a knowledge of those persons previously assist the government in the wish you suppose it to have of subverting the Catholic religion ? — If, previous to the appoint- ment, the names were to be communicated to the government such is the weakness or corruption of man, that many individu- als in the country would seek to gain the good will of his Majesty's ministers, and desert, perhaps, their duty, for the purpose of gratifying some individual in the country who could forward their interests with such government. Now, if the election were confined to a chapter, his majesty's govern- ment might intimate to the individuals composing this chapter, who would be a few, that it would be a thing acceptable to the Sovereign if such a person were preferred ; or they might state, that it would be very disagreeable to his Majesty's government that another jDerson should be elected. Thus it is, that if his Majesty's government have a right to interfere previous to the appointment, in the course of time and the working of events, I think that, if a disposition existed on the part of the govern- ment, that they might use it to the prejudice of the Catholic rehgion in Ireland. Although the person was to be recommended by the chapter, and subsequently approved of by the Pope ? — Yes, even so. At what period were those words in the consecration oath 65S DE. DOYLE EXAMINJED. taken by the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland, first omitted 1 — In the life-time of Pius the Sixth ; I think about the year 1793. To your knowledge, have they been uniformly omitted ever since ? — They have been uniformly omitted ever since. Who exercises the power of the see during the vacancy ? — A vicar capitular. Where there is a chapter, they elect the person to administer the diocese during the vacancy ; that person is called a vicar capitular. Where there is no chapter ? — Then the metropolitan appoints such vicar capitular. Is it the practice in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland for the bishops to have coadjutors ? — There are many instances of the bishops having coadjutors ; but it is not a uniforai nor a general practice, and it is discouraged rather than encouraged by the Pope. Who appoints the coadjutor ? — The coadjutors are generally appointed in the same manner as bishops are appointed ; but in the appointment of coadjutors, the wishes and feelings of the bishop to whom he is given are principally attended to. Is the person appointed coadjutor considered to have a right to look to nomination to the see ? — He is appointed cum jure successionis. What is the authority of the Warden of Galway ? — His office is quite a peculiarity in our church. I do not know that there is in the universal church any one like his. I will, if it be wished, explain it at more length. The warden of Galway is elected by certain persons in Galway and the neighbourhood, who are supposed to be the descendants of certain English families who settled many centuries ago in that town. Those persons assemble once in three years, as I recollect, and they elect a clergyman to be the guardian, or warden as they now call it, of their ecclesiastical concerns. This warden, so elected by the clergy and people, is inducted by the ecclesiastical vicars ; and then he is placed in jurisdiction to govern that little church. At the end of three 3'ears, if I be correct as to the number, the same process must be gone through again, and his jurisdiction renewed. Has he episcopal jurisdiction ? — He has what we call quasi episcopal. To the exclusion of any other bishop in his district ? — Not to the exclusion ; for the Archbishop of Tuam has a right of visi- tation, with some other rights, within that district. Have not the metropolitans the right of visitation over all the bishops within their provinces ? — They have not ; the right of metropolitans has been greatly limited in the Council of Trent. DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 5.^9 The only right, which remains to them in our church, is that of receiving appeals from the decisions of their suffragans; but there are very few cases indeed in which they have the right of visitation. What is the extent of the power of the warden of Galway ? — His jurisdiction extends to the town and suburbs. I believe there are eight or ten parishes subject to him. Upon that subject I may be in error ; but the error is not material. By whom are the parochial clergy appointed in each diocese? — By the bishop exclusively. Does the bishop remove a parochial priest from one parish to another ? — He may remove him if the priest consents to it, but without the consent of the priest he cannot do so, unless the priest be guilty of some canonical fault. The question refers to translation? — He may do so. Is that a frequent practice ? — Pretty frequent, not very. By whom are the curates of each parochial priest appointed ? — They are uniformly appointed by the bishop. Is the money paid to the parish priest for performing the ceremony of mai'riage exclusive of the money paid for the li- cense ? — There is no money paid for the license, nor no license granted by the bishops for the celebration of marriage in the province in which I live, with the exception of the diocese of Ferns, throughout which there is something which must be given by the priest to the bishop on account of each marriage which he solemnizes. Are there banns published in the church previous to mar- riages? — No, it is not customary, in most instances, to do so. Are licenses granted by the bishops for marriap-es ? — No. Is it merely on the application of the parties to the parish priest that the marriage is performed ? — Unless it be within the prohibited time. The parish priest has a right to solemnize the marriage of his own parishioners, on application being made to him, without reference to any one ; but if the parties should appear to be related, within the prohibited degrees, or any other impediment, such as a promise of marriage made to any other person by either of the parties previously existing, re- ference must then be made to the bishop. In what manner are the deans and chapters paid.' — They hold parishes ; they have no jjarticular emolument. The deans and chapters have no particular emolument what- ever ? — They have not : their's is a mere honorary distinction. When a priest is appointed a dean, he has a particular parish, which is usually annexed to that deanery .'' — Not a particular parish ; I do not know that particular parishes are at all joined to deaneries in Ireland. 560 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. Are the customary payments of parishioners ever withheld from the parochial clergy? — I am sure they sometimes are, for in the time of the Whiteboy system in Ireland, we found the people complained as much of the dues paid to the priests, as of the tithes required by the clergy of the established church ; and I think I might state, that the priests very frequently are unable to collect the customary dues from the people. This results generally from the poverty of the poorer classes, and often from an unwillingness, on the part of some, to contribute. Are those payments ever enforced ? — I cannot say that they are. I apprehended that in my own diocese, sometimes, persons very poor might be obliged to pay something ; and, in order to prevent the possibility of oppression of the poor, T prohibited the priests, under the penalty of suspension, from withholding their ministry from any, whether rich or poor, on any such ground. Occasionally they did withhold their ministry from them on that account ? — I believe there have been instances. Is the rule, you state yourself to have laid down, general in the other dioceses? — I believe it may have prevailed in some other dioceses ; but I cannot say that it is general. Would you apply it in any case where the person was able to pay? — Yes, I would even there, because I think that money ought not to be a subject of dispute between the priest and his parishioners at all. If a man be not generous enough to give a contribution to a priest who labours for him, and has devoted his time and his talents to his service, I should rather go with- out it, and live in peace : and that is the disposition I wish to impress upon the clergy under my care. VVould it be felt by the peasantry in Ireland as a relief to them, if the provision for their priests were provided from some other funds i* — I am sure it would ; a very considerable relief. If any provision were made by government towards the maintenance of Catholic priests, should you think it better to relieve the people from the annual payment, or the payment of fees? — I should say that, with the exception of a few towns, where there is a kind of annual payment distinct from fees, every contribution made by the people to the clergy is made at the time when the priest is performing some office for them, so that all of them might be denominated fees in some measure.. If, then, I were to suggest any thing, it would be that all and every contribution to be made by the people, or accepted of by the priest, should cease altogether, with the exceptions that I have before mentioned, that is baptisms, marriages, and bu- rials. I think the relief to the people would be very great, if the dues of priests were entirely done away ; and unless pro- DR. DOYL'E EXAMINED, 561 vision is made to put an end to them, they will be continued by avaricious men in various ways, and the relief of the people would not be attained. I would add, that in the event of a regulation of that kind being made, the contributions at fu- nerals, marriages, and baptisms, would be diminished by I suppose one-half ; for now the people, knowing that the clergy have only the precarious kind of support which they have, are liberal on those occasions of baptisms and marriages ; but if they saw that the priest had a provision independently of those, many probably would give much less than they now do, and some nothing at all. Would you object to this measure being an isolated measure separate from any other measure that may be in contemplation for the relief of the Catholic laity ? — Yes, I should sooner lay my head on a block than accede to the receiving any relief whatever from^Government in a pecuniary way, unless the dis- abilities under which the laity labour were first removed. Would you object to an arrangement by which every per- son obtaining a living in Ireland should memorialize the crown upon coming into such living, for the usual stipend allotted to his situation ; and afterwards, when promoted to a bishopric or any other dignity, should memorialize the crown for such additional stipend ; the crown having the discretion to grant or withhold such stipend, but the stipend being once granted, not to be forfeited or changed in amount, except for canonical of- fence ? — I think there is nothing more just or reasonable than that such an arrangement should take place, for I think it would be very fair and very just that a man who expected to eat the bread of the state, should make known to the government who he was, and that they should be satisfied he was a proper per- son to get such stipend, I think that is just and fair ; but I think the parochial clergy would do better to memorialize through the bishop, or that he should be the channel through which their memorials should pass. I hope your lordships would not have in your minds a disposition to exclude the just authority of the bishop, which he now has over the pai'ish priest ; so that, in case the priest were convicted of any fault, or unable to per- form his duties, that he should not continue to receive sucK stipend. Is it understood, the memorial of the bishop in that case should be received bj' the government as conclusive upon their making that grant ? — That the government is to exercise [its judgment ; but the bishop, in my opinion, would be the proper channel to make the communication, in order that the parochial clergy should not be holding communication directly with the government. 2 o 562 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. Do you think it would be desirable, iu such a case, to throw the livings into classes, annexing different salaries to them, in some proportion to their duties? — I think there should be a scale of the salary ; but I doubt whether that scale should be regulated by the extent of their duties. I think it ought rather to have reference to the towns or cities in which they would dwell. It might happen that a clergyman in the country, in a mountainous country, might have very laborious duties to per- form ; and yet his situation is obscure, and he himself not ex- posed to expense ; whereas the person in the town must be a person of improved manners, pay more for a house, and be obliged occasionally to entertain friends. There should, then, be a scale ; but it ought not to be regulated, in my humble opinion, by the duties to be performed. Do you conceive that there exists a desire, on the part of the Catholic church generally, or of many individuals in it, sup- posing the arrangements referred to in a former question to be made or not, to possess themselves of any part of the revenues of the church of England ? — Whether such arrangement were made or not made, I never discovered in others, nor have I eVfer entertained myself, any disposition whatever to be put into possession of any portion at all of the revenues or property be- longing to the established church. I will add, that if any poi*- tion of that property were offered to me, I would not accept of it ; that if it were proposed to grant the stipend at present spoken of out of the tithes received by the clergy of the esta- blishment, I would not be induced to accept of it. Without meaning to doubt that which you have stated, were it possible to suppose such a disposition to exist on the part of the Roman Catholic church, is it one that would find any coun- tenance or favour on the part of the Roman Catholic laity ? — Unquestionably not ; they would be more averse to it than the Roman Catholic clergy, if more averse to it they could be. Do you mean to say that there is no indisposition on the part of the Roman Catholic laity to allow the established church to continue in possession of all her present emoluments? — I do not by any means say that; for it may be that Roman Cathohcs, as well as the dissenters of other kinds from the establishment, may think that the present property enjoyed by the clergy of the establishment is rather great for the means of the country. I could not, therefore, say that Catholics would not, in common with others, wish that the amount of that property were dinii- nished, and applied to other uses of the state ; but I am quite clear, that neither the Catholic clergy nor Catholic laity have any disposition at all to possess themselves, in any kind of way, of such property. DR. DOVLE EXAMINED. §63 Are you acquainted with the letters which wei*e published under the title of I. K. L. ? — I have seen them. Do you concur in the opinion given in those letters of the established church in Ireland ? — The opinions which I entertain with regard to the establishment are these ; and as the letters alluded to are many, and they may contain opinions which might be misunderstood, I think it better to make myself re- sponsible for the answer I here give, than for what is found written in those letters. The established church in Ireland I look at in two lights : as a Christian community, and as a cor- poration enjoying vast temporal possessions. As a Christian church, consisting of a hierarchy, and professing the doctrine of the gospel, I respect it and esteem it more than any other church in the universe separated from the see of Rome ; but I do unquestionably think that the amount of property enjoyed by the ministers of that church is prejudicial to the interests of the established religion in Ireland, as well as to the interests of the country. I have, therefore, given to your lordships my feelings and opinions in those words most explicitly ; and I be- lieve that they are the same in substance as those expressed in the letters alluded to, if those letters be understood in the sense in which I understand them myself. Do you entertain any objections to the establishment of the Church of England in Ireland, in the respect novv adverted to, which a Protestant might not equally feel ? — I do not suppose that I do. Would the objection to tithes, as they now stand, be removed in any degree by giving admissibility to political power to the Roman Catholic laity ?— Yes ; I do conceive that they would be greatly removed. In what way ? — I conceive that the removal of the disqualifi- cations under which Roman Catholics labour would lessen con- siderably those feelings of opposition which they may at present entertain with regard to the establishment, chiefly for this rea- son, that whilst we labour under the disabilities which now Weigh upon us, we find that the clergy of the establishment, being very numerous and very opulent, employ their influence and their opulence in various ways in opposing the progress of our claims ; and I do think, that if those claims were once ad- justed, and the concessions which we desire granted, the country would settle down into a habit of quiet, and that we would no longer feel the jealousy against the clergy of the establishment which we now feel ; because that jealousy M'hich we do feel arises chiefly from the unrelaxed efforts which they have almost universally made to oppose our claims. We would view them then, if those claims were granted, as brethren labouring in the 2 2 564 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. same vineyard as ourselves, seeking to promote the interests of our common country. How would tithes become the less objectionable, considering they are to be paid by a people chiefly engaged in tillage of land ? — I think if the present Tithe Composition Bill were uni- versally adopted, or a compulsory clause inserted in it, and the tithe levied by an acreable tax, that would excite infinitely less discontent than exists at present. I would state one cause of that opinion to your lordships. I hold myself about a dozen acres of land, which I employ in rearing a little hay for my horses, and feeding two or three cows for my household. I have one field of about three acres which ran to moss ; and my steward told me it was necessary, for the purpose of rendering it useful, that it should be broken up. I hesitated long to do so, because I should thereby subject myself to a heavy tithe. If the matter were regulated by tax, that apprehension would not prevail in my mind, and I would not hesitate to improve my farm. I will mention another instance. I was walking in one of his meadows with a farmer who held, a large tract of land, and which meadow he had neglected to mow. I asked him why so much grass was left upon the surface. He stated, that he left it there for his cattle to eat in the winter ; for that if he had cut it and saved it for them, he would have been obliged to pay tithe. If, then, the Tithe Composition Act were enforced, neither of those objections would have arisen in our minds, nor similar objections in the minds of thousands of people in Ireland, who feel what touches them immediately, though they would be blind to what is remote. Is not the payment of tithes to the Roman Catholic clergy enjoined by your catechism ; specially enjoined before the year 1817, omitted in 1817, and renewed in 1819 ? — There are seve- ral catechisms in Ireland. I am acquainted only with that in use in the diocese in which I live ; that was one drawn up by a late Archbishop of Cashel, of the Ormond family, and he trans- lated it almost literally from a catechism that was in use on the continent ; it was afterwards revised by the Catholic archbishops of Ireland and printed. There are several editions of the Ca- techism which was originally published by Doctor Butler, as also of that approved by the four archbishops. The command of the church alluded to, which says, " Pay tithes to your pastor," was a literal translation from the original ; this was found to be a question or answer that might give offence, and it was corrected in the edition to which your lordships have re- ferred. But I have never known, nor do I suspect in my mind — I am upon my oath before your lordships and before God— I do not know that it was ever thought of by any one that this DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 565 command had reference to the payment of the tithes which we owe to the Protestant clergy as to be made to ourselves ; it was always understood as only obliging us to contribute to the sup- port of our pastors — an obligation which is derived from a much higher authority than that of the catechism of the church. Is not that injunction now contained in the catechism circu- lated in England, under the authority of the vicar apostolic ? — ■ I do not know ; but I am quite sure, that wherever it is circu- lated, it is understood by our people as I have stated. Is it not much better altered ? — It is much better ; but we have no copyright in this catechisin, and the printers in the country towns print them oflF without consulting us at all. This catechism, you conceive, has not had any special autho- rity from the church in its circulation ? — No, it has not. Are you aware of any authority having been given for the renewal of this passage in 1819 ? — Not only am I not aware of any authority being given for its renewal in 1819, but I am satisfied there was no such authority given ; and there is not any Catholic bishop in Ireland who will not watch carefully to prevent the insertion of those words. Authority was given for leaving out those words ? — Yes. And no authority given for their re-insertion ? — Just so. As you are aware that the Roman Catholic laity look for re- storation of certain rights, which their ancestors formerly pos- sessed, namely, seats m Parliament, 8fc. ; do you conceive that the Roman Catholic church looks for a restoration of similar rights exercised by their predecessors ? — Not at all ; we never thought of such a thing. The right of sitting and voting in Parliament is derived from the baronial title of the bishop in the established church, and not from his episcopal character ; and we would think it destructive, (I would not use a weaker word) that any of our bishops should be admitted into the legislative assembly. It is a thing quite foreign from our thoughts. God forbid that it should ever enter into the minds of others. You have said that you consider the ecclesiastical authorities and functions of the bishops confined to the church of Rome ? — To the church in communion with the see of Rome ; we do not recognise as lawful the mission or jurisdiction of any other church. Entertaining those tenets, how do you conceive that a Roman Catholic ecclesiastic can recognise and engage for the maintain- ance of a Protestant ecclesiastical establishment ? — I do not see any thing more easy than that, because the state in which we live has been pleased in its wisdom to establish a certain mode of worship, and to give certain immunities and privileges to the qlergy of that establishment ; this entering into the state as au 566 DR. noYLE EXAMINED. integral part, why should not we support the state which sup- ports that establishment. I do not see, certainly, how that in- terferes at all with our tenets ; but I view it just in that light in which I have placed it before your Lordships. In the address of the Roman Catholic bishops to their clergy, published at the end of last year, and to which your name is affixed, it appears that you object to the possession of the bible by the Roman Catholic laity ; does that apply to the bible attempted to be circulated by the Bible Society, or does it equally apply to any other version of the scriptures, such as that called the Rheims or Douay vei'sion ? — It applies to the version sought to be circulated by the Bible Society amongst us ; and not to the Rheimish or Douay version, which is sanc- tioned by our prelates. That we have no aversion to the read- ing of the bible, and to the possession of it by the laity of our church, is best proved by the great many editions it has gone through in Ireland, under our express sanction ; and to which editions there is affixed a rescript of Pius the Sixth, directed t6 a prelate in Italy called Martini, who had translated the bibl6 out of the vulgate into the Italian language. We prefix this rescript of Pius the Sixth to our editions in English of the bible, in order to show, that not only we, but the head of our church is joined with us, in exhorting the faithful to read the word of God. We have not only procured editions of the bible ; I believe three by Coyne, two by O'Reilly, and one by Cross (perhaps it is two) ; but this very year we have procured a stereotype edition of the bible, of a small print and low price, to circulate it among all ; so that, of all the things said of us, there is not any thing said of us more opposed to truth, than that we are averse to the circulation of the word of God. Have the editions which have been circulated of the Douay or Rheims translations been accompanied with notes f— *They have very short notes. You think it necessary that notes should accomj^any the bible, for the purpose of explanation ? — In our country, where religious controversy prevails to such an extent, I do think it necessary that short notes, explanatory of the texts on which our differences turn, should be prefixed to the bible. You consider yourselves pledged to all matters contained in those notes ? — No, not by any means. On the contrar)', there were notes affixed, I believe, to the Rheimish Testament, which were most objectionable ; and on being presented to us, we caused them to be expunged. The notes carry, in our edition of the bible, no weight ; for we do not know the writers of many of them. If we find them clear enough int explanation of doctrine, "we leave them there ; but whenever we find any thing DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 567 exceptionable we put it out, as we have done in the cases I have referred to. But those published with the objectionable notes were pub- lished by authority of the bishops ? — The translation was made at Douay and Rheiras, without our knowledge perhaps ; and when we found it in circulation, and examined it, we found it to be correct, and then we approved of it ; which approbation refers to the text, without the exceptionable notes, as stated in. my last answer. Have you in any instances allowed the circulation of the bible among the laity without notes ? — I do not know that we have. It appears, by this address, that you direct that all religious tracts, circulated by certain societies, shall be restored to their owners or destroyed, except bibles and testaments, which you direct to be given to the parish priest. Supposing that direc- tion disobeyed, what are the consequences to those who may disobey them ; are they visited with any consequences ? — Really I do not know that they are. I do not think we ever inquired into the disobedience or non-observance of what is there en- joined ; for we are confident the people will do what we recom- mend to them in religious matters ; and having promulgated what we think it their duty to perform, we leave the matter there. Have you heard, or have you any knowledge, that the sacra- ments of the church liave been refused to those who have been in possession of such books, and have not delivered them up in consequence of the admonition ? — I have not heard of any such thing ; before your lordships, and before God, I never did. Could it have been done in any part of Ireland and you not know it ? — I think it might, and I am quite assured there are amongst our clergy persons of so warm and heated feelings, as to do precisely what has been mentioned ; but I have stated before, that I do not know of its liaving been done ; that it might have been done, I am quite sure, considering the charac- ter of some of our young clergymen, and old ones too. We have got enthusiastics in all churches. You would not think it a necessary part of Roman Catholic discipline that the sacraments of the church should be refused for disobedience to such an order ? — Oh no, it is not a matter of that moment ; it is a serious thing to refuse sacraments. Or that they should be subject to penances ? — No ; it is a matter of quiet expostulation, not I'educed to any thing like trial or punishment. Would the priest, so refusing the sacrament, be subject to ecclesiastical censure, if liis conduct were known? — Supposing 568 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. there were a priest, who required a Catholic parishioner to give np those books, if the Catholic parishioner retained thena, ap- proving thereby of the doctrine contained in them, we would not subject a priest to any penalty for withholding sacraments from that man, for it would appear that he was adopting that doctrine, and separating himself from us ; but if the priest re- quired a man to give up those books, and the man said, I will not, because I find some passages which are amusing, or some instructive, or my landlord gave them to me, and I will not go back with them ; if the priest refused sacraments to a man act- ing thus, we would reprimand the priest, and leave the man at peace. The only case, in which the priest could be justified In with- iioldlng the sacraments, would be that of a suspicion on his mind that the person retaining them was a sepai'atist from the church of Rome ? — Precisely so, or becoming one; on that ground only. I read every kind of book myself, and should be glad that every Catholic had an improved mind, and were suf- ficiently educated to be able to read every book; and then I should be glad if they read every possible book ; but the igno- rant people are very easily seduced by a plausible statement. You stated that some notes to the Rheimish and Douay Tes- tament had been expunged ; do you i-ecollect on what account they were expunged ? — They were expunged on this account, that they seemed to favour a spirit of persecution in our church, of persons who dijSered from us in religious faith. Do you think It necessary or desirable, that in any notes which are retained in those translations, anything more should be done than stating the grounds of your difference with the established church? — That Is all I would ever wish to see in such notes ; that the note would state what we conceive to be the true meaning of the text, leaving every thing on the other side entirely out ; for we do not wish so much to confute what we conceive the errors of others, as to Inculcate our own doctrine. Do you consider it desirable any note should be expunged which you consider as reflecting uncharitably on other religions? — Undoubtedly. Do you know that the doctrine of exclusive salvation in the Church of Rome is preached in Ireland by your parochial clergy to their flocks ? — I think it is preached by the parochial clergy of every church In Ireland, as well as ours ; so that in thati do not suppose there is any difference between one church and another. The doctrine of exclusive salvation is found, as expressly stated. In the eighteenth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the Established Church, I think, as in any of ouy DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 569 creeds : besides, that profession of faith adopts the Athanasian Creed, which also establishes exclusive salvation ; so that I do not know of any church the ministers of which do not preach exclusive salvation in one sense or another; for it is in ray opinion a doctrine common to every sect of Christianity. Is the pope's authority received by the Irish Roman Catholic church as supreme in matters of faith and morals ? — We re- cognise him as the head of our chui'ch, and therefore give him the executive authority. But that is limited by the sacred canons : he cannot create new articles of faith. Are papal bulls received in Ireland? — They are. For what purposes? — Suppose a bull, like that which is published in the pamphlet that was in the hands of a noble lord, wherein he makes a I'egulation that has reference to a sect of infidels, and also to the Bible Society ; we received that, as I explained to your lordships, by translating it into the English language and giving it circulation : it is thus that we receive them. But we would not receive any bull that would trench on our rights as a national church. Would it be objected to, that the publication of all bulls should be subject to the royal license ? — Bulls are very sel- dom or never issued by our church ; communications from Rome come in the form of letters generally. In writing a letter, there are two persons concerned, the person writing and the person receiving ; and for us to engage to submit a letter of that kind to authority, without the concurrence of the pope, our doing so would, perhaps, not be consistent with the reve- rence we owe him, as the head pastor of the church ; but at the same time, as far as I am personally concerned, and know of those communications, I should have no objection in the world that every one of them were posted at Charing-Cross. Are they chiefly on spiritual matters? — They are, almost exclusively ; that there is one which partakes more of a tem- poral nature, than any I have ever seen before, as it refers to the Bible Society. How do you clistinguish in all cases between a spiritual and a temporal interference ? — I do not think it is very difficult for us, at present; because those things that are of a spiritual or religious natui-e obviously regard the articles of our creed, as they are found in our profession of faith, or those moral actions of ours which might or might not be contrary to the commands of God. The temporal matters are either exclusively of a civil or temporal kind, or they are of a mixed kind. With regard to those of a civil or temporal kind, such as the old bulls of the pope, regarding the rights of princes, and such things ; those are quite obviously not to be classed with things of a, 570 DR. DOVLE EXAMINED. religious or spiritual nature. Then there are other bulls, or other decisions of the court of Rome, which may be said to be of a mixed nature ; such, for instance, as those which regard matrimony. In matrimony we recognise, as it were, two things ; the one the civil contract, and the other the religious rite. The civil contract and all its effects we leave entirely to the civil law of the country where we dwell : and when we receive any communication from the pope regarding matrimony, we immediately understand it as appertaining to the spiritual rights of the parties concerned, and not at all as relating to the civil effects of the marriage, or the temporal rights which might accrue to the parties, or to their issue. I will explain the matter more fully by a case : Suppose persons related in the second degree of kindred were married ; this marriage according to the law of the country is valid ; and the bishop or the pope have a right to declare that such marriage is null and void according to the law of the church. Here then the rescript of the pope upon that subject would oblige us to think those persons as living in a state of sin, whereas the law of the land would recognise them as living in a lawful state. We would be obliged to recognise them as man and wife, accord- ing to the law of the land, and to maintain them in their rights ; according to the law of the land, we would also be obliged to preserve the rights of inheritance to the issue of such marriage, whilst we consider this issue as illegitimate in the ecclesiastical sense, so that if a son of that marriage applied to us for ordination, we could not ordain him. You would consider him as legitimate for one purpose, and illegitimate for another ? — Yes, just so. Are not Catholics prohibited intermarrying with Protestants by the Council of Trent ? — No ; there is not a syllable about it in that council. Is the discipline of the Council of Trent completely admitted by the Roman Catholic church of Ireland ? — No, it is not ; in some places, for instance in the jorovince of Dublin, we have not admitted the discipline of the Council of Trent, regarding marriages and other things. Is the creed of Pius the Fourth, the creed acknowledged in the Irish Roman Catholic church? — Yes, every Catholic admits that creed. Does not the last article but one of that creed declare every thing done in that council binding ? — That regards faith, and not discipline. The French church never received the decrees of the Council of Trent regarding discipline ; and in a part of Ireland such decrees are received, in another part of Ireland such decrees are not received. DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 571 By what authority are such decrees received in some parts of Ireland, and not in others ? — The mode of receiving the council is this: the bishops of the province assemble, and deliberate whether the discipline enacted at Trent would or would not be useful to their church. If they think it useful, they imme- diately publish a declaration, and cause it to be read by the parish priest in each chapel ; and thus the decrees of disci- pline become published and have force. And if they think that such discipline of the Council of Trent will not be useful to their church, they sejjarate and do nothing. Do you consider the marriage of a Protestant with a Roman Catholic valid f — It is valid, in a civil and in an ecclesiastical point of view. Have you never known a marriage between a Roman Catholic and a Protestant, solemnized by a Protestant clergyman, dis- solved by a priest ? — Never ; it could not be done ; nor by the pope, nor council, nor any authority on earth, unless thei-e is a canonical impediment (which the difterence of religion is not) intervening. Did you ever know an instance of a marriage of that kind dissolved, by which the woman became an outcast? — Never ; it could not be done. If a Roman Catholic and Protestant intermarry, and the children are brought up Protestants, does the Roman Catholic incur any censure ? — No, never. Have you never known the Catholic clergy make it a con- dition in a marriage between a Catholic and a Protestant, that the children should be brought up in the Roman Catholic iaith ? — They advise it ; it is in the nature of religion, that the ministers of it seek to make all the proselytes they can. Have you ever known them refuse to perform marriages unless that condition were acceded to ? — I have ; but if they should, the parties can go to the Protestant clergyman, who has equally the power of marrying them. If the wife is a Roman Catnolic, and the husband is a Pro- testant, and the husband converts the wife to the Protestant faith, what course do you pursue with respect to her ? — The person who ceases to be a Catholic, ceases to frequent our as- semblies, and we know no more of him. Are you sure there is no prohibition of a Catholic inter- marrying with a Protestant ; or is it a fact that there is such a prohibition, and that it is suspended in Ireland ? — There is no such prohibition arising from the Council of Trent ; and I do not know of any such prohibition by any council, except by the Council of Chalcedon, celebrated in the fifth century ; the canon of which certainly is not in use nor force ; so that if an 572 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. individual choose to act so, he acts in virtue of his own autho- rity, whatever it may be for. I think very few priests in Ire- land know even of the existence of the canon, as we have but few canonists among our clergy. In the year 1809 the late pope, by a circular letter addressed to his Italian bishops, distinguishes between oaths of active and passive fidelity to a temporal sovereign ; do you hold any such distinction ? — We hold no such distinction with regard to a legal sovereign, such as ours is. But in order to remove such objection as might arise from the bare mention of such doctrine, it may be necessary for me to state to your lordships the occa- sion on which such declaration was made, as I recollect it. At the time when the pope had been violently taken away from his own dominions, and the French troops had taken possession of his territories, they endeavoured to compel the subjects of the pope to take an oath of allegiance. Many of the latter refused to do so. He was applied to by the bishops, in order to know what line of conduct they should pursue, as subjects ; and he understanding well that he who has the power de facto cannot be resisted, desired that they would take the oath of passive obedience, that is, that they would not resist the usurped authority of Buonaparte during the period he might occupy their territory ; but he would not allow them to take, or sanc- tion their taking an oath, so as to disclaim his own rightful title to his territory, and acknowledge that of a violent usurper. If I were to suppose a case, where the king of Denmark made a descent upon Ireland, and occupied some of our towns, surely this descent and forcible occupation of our territory for a time would not free us from our allegiance to our lawful sovereign, though it would entitle us to remain quiet, as otherwise our heads would be cut oft". In the year 1813, Doctor Milner, vicar-apostolic in the mid- land distx'ict of England, in a paper entitled " A Brief Memo- rial on the Catholic Bill," dated the 21st of May, under his hand, declared that the Roman Catholic subjects could not con- scientiously swear to defend to the utmost the Protestant suc- cession of this kingdom, and they might swear that they would submit to it ; do you hold such distinction ? — I do not ; I be- lieve that the Roman Cathohc oath in Ireland has those words, " I have taken it with a good conscience, and will keep it, with the blessing of heaven, 'till my death." Are you aware of the existence of any persons who hold any ecclesiastical or other high situations in the Catholic church of Ireland, who entertain a different opinion from you upon that subject ? — Never one ; I never heard of one Ayho entertained a different opinion. DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 573 Do you consider it desirable that the Roman Catholic laity should be educated conjointly with the Protestant ? — I see no objection whatever that they should be educated together ; on the contrary, if by being educated together the harmony of the different sects in' Ireland could be promoted, I think that it would be a matter to be desired. If they were so educated together at Trinity College Dublin, must they not have separate professors of their own faith to in- struct the young men ? — That would not be necessary for those who attend college, as many of those who enter there can lodge in town, and receive religious instruction where they please; and even those who reside within Trinity College have sufficient opportunities of obtaining religious instruction abroad on Sundays. In point of fact, are there not now some Roman Catholic students in Trinity College Dublin ? — I apprehend some hun- dreds of them. The Roman Catholics in Trinity College are not obliged to attend prayers with others, and of course they would resort to the prayers of their own church, at least on Sundays. On other days of the week they might perform their devotions in their chambers. Of those who are educating for the priesthood, do you con- sider it most desirable they should be educated in Ireland, or on the continent? — I think it desirable, and even necessary, that the great bulk of them should be educated at home ; but I think it also desirable that young men of improved minds and good talents should travel abroad, and receive those advantages from travelling and mixing with communities on the continent which cannot be had at home. Are those who are educated on the continent on burses better educated than those who are educated at home ? — I think the education at home is as good as is to be had at most of the colleges on the continent ; but our Irish students who receive an education at the universities abroad are better educated than they can be educated at home. You make a distinction between the colleges and universities ; have the goodness to state the ground of that distinction ? — At the colleges on the continent there is generally at each a course of studies ; and by attending to those studies, a voung man may get a certificate, and be rendered fit to serve in the church in Ireland. Now, besides this course of studies, which is found within the college at home, there are public halls at the univer- sity, where lectures are given, where public examinations are held, where public exhibitions are performed, where degrees are given to those who have most distinguished themselves, and where, of course, there is that emuljition and excitement of 574 _ DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. genius which tend to improve the mind and to increase the knowledge of men. For instance, I studied upon the continent, at Coimbra in Portugal ; but in the college in which I lived there were several students educated who never attended the university ; some few others, as well as myself, did attend the university ; and hence there was a difference in the education. In what do you apprehend the superiority to consist of an education at the foreign universities over any domestic educa- tion which can now be procured in Ireland ? — On the continent they have men of moi'e extensive learning to teach in their universities that we can find in our colleges at home ; there are greater rewards held forth ; genius is better cultivated ; and for these reasons I have found that a person receives more in- formation, and improves his talent more by studying at a university than at any private college. Do you think that a considerable degree of improvement might be introduced in the present system of education for the priesthood in Ireland ?— I do think there could be considerable improvement in the system of education ; but at the same time I am only an individual, and it would be presumption in me to state that that which now obtains is not the best. I could not undertake to suggest an improvement, considering that there are men of great judgment and experience at the head of the establishment at Maynooth ; and though I think there might be an improvement in the system pursued there, it does not follow that I think rightly. If your lordship had not asked me, I would not have presumed to say that that was my opinion. Would there be any objection on the part of the Catholic Church to connecting with the present establishment at May- nooth a course of instruction in other sciences, — sciences not theological ? — If it be in contemplation to have it simply and exclusively ecclesiastic, there is no necessity for introducmg any science more than those now taught in it ; because classics are taught in it^ rational and moral philosophy are taught in it, there is a regular course of mathematics, and natural and experi- mental philosophy taught, besides theology ; so that, unless it was turned into a university by the king, and other sciences taught, such as law and medicine, I do not know what addi- tional sciences can be taught in it. Is chemistry taught in it ? — I think it is, but I am not quite clear as to that. Would not the extension of it in that way rather tend to what you have disapproved of in a former answer, a separate education ? — Yes ; I would not wish that ecclesiastical semina- ries should be thrown open. To what causes do you attribute the opposition which has DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 575 arisen to the education of Catholic children with others ? — Ex- clusively to the efforts which have been made by persons difiering from us in religion to interfere directly or indirectly with the faith of Roman Catholics. Where such a suspicion has been altogether removed, do you know any instance of schools being established, and continuing to flourish, where Roman Catholic and Protestant children have been educated together ? — I have got copies of the returns made lately to the commissioners on education appointed by His Majesty, and I find by the returns, that in three-fourths of the schools throughout my diocese, Roman Catholics and Pro- testants are educated together, without any complaint of proselytism on either side. I find in the returns made by the clergymen, no attempts made in those schools to proselytise. In those cases they are educated together without difficulty ? — Yes ; where such interference does not" occur, there is no difficulty in carrying on the education of both. Have you any doubt, that in the instances where no such apprehension of proselytism was entertained, the Roman Catho- lic clergy would feel it their duty actively to promote education in such schools ? — I have not ; of course the clergy would be the most zealous of those seeking to promote education. Have not the Roman Catholic children been withdrawn in many instances since those returns made to the commissioners 1 — I dare say they have ; but if they have, it was owing to an interference with the religious tenets of the children, either actually made, or suspected to be made ; so that the withdraw- ing of the children has, in every instance which has come to my knowledge, arisen from the conviction or apprehension that such efforts were using. Do the Roman Catholic clergy contribute frequently in their individual or collective capacity to the establishment of schools for the education of the j30or ? — I do not think that there is a jariest in my diocese, however poor, or of whatever description, who has not contributed his money and his labour to the esta- blishment of schools ; and I myself have done every thing in my power to promote education in every shape among the people. What is the most approved and authentic summary of the creed of the Roman Catholic church ? — The most approved and authentic summary of the creed of the Roman Catholic church will be found in the decrees of the Council of Trent, and in the profession of faith by Pope Pius the Fourth, and in what we call the Roman catechism, or catechism of the Council of Trent. The latter work particularly is perhaps the most authentic summary, because in the Council of Trent many things are mixed up with the declarations of faith ; whereas, the catechism 576 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. of the council is confined, I believe, exclusively to matters of faith and morals. Is Bossuet's Exposition of the Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church considered orthodox? — Yes, quite orthodox ; anti we consider it extremely good. There is another that would be exceedingly useful to read, which is Veron's Rule of Faith. Of what date is that? — Some time after the Council of Trent. I mention its utility, because he not only expounds what truly are the Catholic tenets, but he also removes a misunderstanding which then subsisted in the minds of many with regard to those tenets ; there is both the tenet and the exposition, but in Latin ; and it is a work universally admitted as a standard of our doctrine. Are not the Roman Catholics taught that no change whatever has taken place or can take place in the doctrines of their church ? — Yes, that is a tenet of our faith ; and it regards, as your lordships must have perceived from many of my answers, the doctrine of faith, and not the discipline of the church, which is eternally varying. When Roman Catholics are required to profess their assent to all things declared and found by the canons of councils, what canons are meant ? — The canons universally received by the church, or such parts of them as are received by the church. The whole of some, and parts of others ? — Just so. When crimes, such as mxii'der or treason, are revealed in confession, is the confessor bound not to disclose that? — He is bound not to disclose it in any case whatever. Has not such disclosure been allowed at Rome ? — Never. Not in the case of a conspiracy against the Pope ? — No. That statement has been made. It is a matter which I have taken pains to ascertain. It is said by Du Thou, in his history, that it has been allowed in France ? — I would not believe, on the authority of Du Thou, nor any authority whatever, that it could have been allowed ; for we hold universally, in the Catholic church, that the revealing of any secrets confided to the priests in con- fession is contrary to the law of nature and to the authority of God, in respect of which no Pope or council can dispense or exercise any authority, unless to enforce such law. Would not such a regulation, were it adopted, defeat its own purpose, as far as connected with the security of the State, by preventing the habit of confession on those subjects ? Altogether ; but by leaving it as it is, the abuse of it is im- possible ; because when a criminal comes, if he should come, to DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 577 lYialce known his crime to the priest, the latter endeavours to dissuade him from it, if not perpetrated, and to repair, if it be done, the injury he has committed, as far as it is in his power. If, however, it were once allowed to the priest to reveal the confession, under any circumstances, no criminal would come to him. Would a priest think himself justified, in case he received in confession a knowledge of an intended crime, to take any mea-sure by which he could prevent the execution of that crime ? — No, he cannot ; more than the means he uses with the individuals themselves. Could not he warn the person against whom the crime is intended to be committed ? — He cannot. We adopt, with regard to the secret of confession, an expression of St. Augus- tine ; his Latin is very bad, but it expresses our sentiment very strongly ; " Plus ignorat quod sacerdos a peccatore audit quam quod nescit." Are the miracles of Prince Hohenlohe generally credited in Ireland? — 1 believe they are generally credited. Are they rmisidered by Roman Catholics as evidences of the Divine favour towards that church? — I was personally con- cerned in one of them : I have considered that an instance in which the Almighty was pleased to interfere, and shew his mercy to the individual who was afflicted. Is it not likewise considered as a proof of the intention of the Almighty to interfere for the recovery of the Roman Catholic church from its present state of oppression ? — As a proof that the Almighty has watched over a faithful member of that church. Have those miracles been acknowledged by the court of Rome ? — The court of Rome has taken no cognizance of them. The Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland still feel themselves entitled to receive them as miracles r — The bishop in his own diocese has a right to examine into the fact, and to receive the miracle if his mind is convinced ; but his declaration in its favour does not bind any one. With respect to all miracles now wrought, the right of private judgment is exercised by every individual seriatim? — Of course. Till they have been acknowledged by the Head of the church? — And even then, I think, a declaration of the Head of the church on a miracle does not bind the faith of any one ; it would be irreverent to doubt it ; but it is a matter on which the Pope and a general council might be in error. But it is a matter in which you believe, and which you would inculcate on those you instruct ?— It is not a matter I 2 P 578 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. would inculcate, because I think it unnecessary to do so : it is not a matter which can form a part of such instruction as we give to the people ; but I do believe it myself. It is the doc- trine of our church, that miracles are wrought in every coun- try, and in every age, when the Almighty may think it neces- sary to do so for the relief of any of nis creatures, who peti- tion him in the spirit of humility and faith. Do you not think it desirable, for the purpose of avoiding any collision between j)ersons of different religious feelings, that no procession should take place, which would give offence to either parties ? — I do think that such processions should be con- fined to the places of worship, or their precincts ; to a small enclosure about them, if it were necessary, or to the church- yard, but not the street. Are you acquainted with the service for the sick in the Com- mon Prayer Book of the Established Church ? — Yes. In that service, where a Protestant applies for the special in- terference of Providence for the relief of the sick person, where no human help can avail, does he appear to you to ask for more than has been granted. In your opinion, in the case of Prince Hohenlohe ? — Precisely the same ; but in the case of Prince Hohenlohe it was granted in a more special and striking degree. Are you acquainted with the prophecies published by Pas- torini ? — 1 have read them some years ago, but not lately ; I know sufficiently the substance of them. They have been circulated extensively, on a separate sheet, among the peasantry of Ireland ; have they not ? — I do not know ; the book is a large one ; that there may have been an extract of that kind printed and circulated among the peasan- try, I have little doubt ; at the same time I am very confident, that if done, it has been done lately, by persons in the south, to excite dissension in Ireland, and to produce appearances of dis- turbance. ^ 1 T T_' I, Have any means been taken by the Roman Catholic bishops or clero-y to discountenance that?— I have taken, myself, a very active part In seeking to discountenance It ; and not only to discountenance it, but to prevent altogether the readmgot it. I have gone so far In a Pastoral, which I published m the be- ginning of this Lent, as to call it the impious production of an over-heated mind ; and I doubt whether any noble lord could designate It more strongly. Those words express what 1 thmic Are you aware of any other persons, holding the same situ- ation with yourself, or other offices In the Catholic church, who have taken a different part from yourself respecting it ?— INo ; DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 579 I have known other bishops to denounce it as a mischievous Avork. Have you known any who have given it the least counte- nance ? — No. Do you think their efforts have been successful in discoun- tenancing it ? — Yes ; I am persuaded there is no one in my dio- cese who gives the least countenance to it. Have you any establishment in your chui'ch, parochial or other, for the relief of the poor ? — We have some Mendicity Societies ; but except those, I do not know that we have any. No parochial establishment ? — No. What particular or general benefit would, in your opinion, be produced in Ireland by the admission of the Catholics to equal rights and privileges ? — I think that the general benefits produced by it would be incalculable. I am quite confident it would put an end to those religious heats and animosities which now prevail so generally. I am also of opinion it would tran- quillize the public mind effectually, and make us all sit down quietly to promote our local and general interests. I also think that the roil ntiy being thus intent on its internal improvement, the capitalists of England would find it theii- interest to go amongst us, and to employ, for their own advantage as well as ours, their capital, and skill, and industry, upon those vast re- sources with which Ireland abounds. It is in that way, I think, our general interests would be promoted by it. As to the par- ticular interests to be promoted by it, I should think, in a vast community like ours, abounding with talent, and now becoming well-educated, many individuals would shew themselves de- serving of attention, and acquire those situations, from which profit and honour would be acquired to themselves and their families ; and if only one individual of the commnnity had this prospect before him, that would cause all others in his neigh- bourhood to look up to the state, and to labour with the go- vei'nment for the public good. In fact, I think it would knit together, and effectually secure the affections of the multitude as well as of individuals, and make us one people immediately, and I hope, in a few years, a very happy and prosperous people. Those are my views, such as I entertain them in the presence of God and your lordships ; and I may add, that I think pros- perity and tranquillity will never prevail in Ireland while the present political differences, arising from religion, are suffered to jDrevail. Do you think the Roman Catholics in Ireland have any feel- ings upon that subject ? — Their feelings are more acute, in pro- portion as their passions are stronger, than those of better edu- cated persons. 2 ¥ 2 580 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. Does not that feeling arise more from a sense of the fact of degradation to which persons of their religious sentiments are subject, than from any hope they themselves have of individual benefit? — It arises chiefly from that feeling which your lord- ship has just mentioned ; but they do expect, and the impres- sion is strong amongst them, that if those religious differences were taken away, the country would improve, and their own condition become thereby somewhat better. Do they not also expect that they would receive a more cer- tain degree of protection, from the elevation of those individuals of their own community, whose wealth or talent might raise them to situations of distinction ? — I have no doubt that feeling is general amongst them. Is the admission of the Catholic community to equal rights anxiously desired by the Catholic priesthood ? — Most anxiously. In fact, our situation is one of extremely difficulty ; one in which we are endeavouring to conciliate the upper orders, and to keep quiet the feelings of the lower orders. In this restless state in which our society is at present, we feel considerable difficulty and pain ; and we hope that if our claims were settled by an amicable adjustment, wc cuuld go on without being obliged to interfere hi political matters ; that the country would be at least relieved from the extreme poverty which is now so afflicting, and our own condition improved thereby. It is im- possible to estimate the state of anxiety in which we live, arising unquestionably from the state of the laws, THE END. LONDON: PRINTED BY -WILLIAM CLOWEb Northumbeiland-couit. l''./i. V \ mf /^l f. :^ JJa ki: fe^i -, y^^^l^ M ^>v ^^./ f^^^ wmi"''^f>'^ V? 5# 3903loi21i2ii' yr^« .y^'^X^'u^y \;Jc^i^j^^^2X^ ^^® ^\\(j WK BOSTON COLLEGE LIBRARY UNIVERSITY HEIGHTS CHESTNUT HnX. MASS. Books may be kept for two weeks and may be renewed for the same period, unless reserved. Two cents a day is charged for each book kept overtime. If you cannot find what you want, ask the Librarian who will be glad to help you. The borrower is responsible for books drawn on his card and for all fines accruing on the same. '//7/9717UT\-mMm 1 !'» ■J>- I& 3 ■'-" --^ ,