^^ ~ ^—l^^i- -I'.-l" -i' r-i-. "i" rl'.ri^.ri'. h —»; '|"T^.p'p'p | |''T*'y''Y*p'T'‘T''P'f"T , 't*'|'' 'J**T^^ »yi«T»>y 'f''tl-ty > a a a + + + + + + + + + + + i+ + + + + ii + + ii + + + + + + + & m » u a THE HOPE TRUST, 3M S a i 3 1 MORAY PLACE, /I H a 1 tt EDINBURGH. /i | m u ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ J ± XUS N ;X. Xs 5s X5 X: JfcSi 5.. Xl X:X1 Xi^S:; X i% J /oyt, ^TTfTrrtTTT i T 1 TTTTtTK Lyy (/V -{'V t ivvM iX £xA,rLfr\i&) * REPO R T FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS); TOGETHER WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. [Communicated from the Commons to the Lords.] Ordered to be printed 25th April 1871. (75.) Monday , 6 th March 1871. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of Westmeath, and certain parts adjoining of Meath and King’s County, and the nature, extent, and effect of a certain unlawful combination and confederacy existing therein. Thursday, 9th March 1871. Select Committee nominated : — Marquis of Hartington. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Hardy. Sir George Grey. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. Downing. Viscount Sandon. Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Ordered, That the Select Committee have power to report the Evidence taken before them, and their opinion thereon to the House. Mr. James. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Thursday , 1 6tli March 1871. Ordered , That the Select Committee do consist of Seventeen Members. Ordered, TnAT Mr. Chichester Fortescue and Mr. Plunket be added to the Com¬ mittee. Friday, 31 st March, 18/1 « Ordered, That the Committee have power to report their Observations to the House. REPORT.p. iii PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE p. v MINUTES OF EVIDENCE -.p. 1 APPENDIX.p. 149 R E P O R T. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to Inquire into the State of Westmeath, and certain parts adjoining of Meath and King’s County, and the Nature, Extent, and Effect of a certain Unlawful Combination and Confederacy existing therein, and who were empowered to Report the Evidence taken before them, and their Opinion thereon to the House ;- Have considered the matters referred to them, and have agreed to the following REPORT :— That there is at present existing within the county of Westmeath and certain adjoining portions of the county of Meath and of the King’s County, an unlawful combination and confederacy of a secret nature, generally known by the name of the Ribbon Society. That this Ribbon Society has existed for a considerable length of time, and has within the last three years, as compared with those immediately pre¬ ceding, increased in power and influence. That owing to the prevalence of this Society, murder and other crimes of the most serious nature have been perpetrated within the district above referred to, and that by reason partly of sympathy with the perpetrators of such crimes, and still more by the terror created by the existence and action of the Society, it has been found to be almost impossible to obtain evidence on which to bring offenders to justice. That such immunity from detection and consequent punishment has had for its results an encouragement to crime, the diffusion of a spirit of lawless¬ ness, and a corresponding decrease of confidence in the power of the law among the peaceful members of the community. That this Society, originating in a desire on the part of its members to interfere in an unlawful and violent manner in matters relating to the tenure and occupation of land, has extended the sphere of its operations, and more or less prejudicially affects other relations of life. That this Society has adherents and supporters among the farming classes in the district, and some sympathisers amongst a certain class of small traders in the towns, but recruits its ranks chiefly from farm servants and daily labourers; and that these persons are under the control of a few individuals who may be looked upon as the heads of the Society, and are alleged to be known as such to the local authorities. 147 . a 2 That r iv ] That the Society, besides leading directly to the perpetration of the crimes already mentioned, has infused a feeling of terror into all classes in the dis¬ trict, by reason of which its objects are frequently brought about, without any overt act of violence. That the Peace Preservation Act, while largely extending the means pre¬ viously existing for the prevention and detection of crime, and containing for that purpose effective and useful provisions, has not furnished the Executive with all the power necessary to deal with crime of that organised and secret nature which characterises the district in question. That the Authorities have endeavoured vigorously to carry into effect the existing law, including the Peace Preservation Act; but, owing to the causes referred to, they have rarely been able to make amenable to justice the per¬ petrators of the crimes, and in no instance any one as a leader or organiser of the Ribbon Society. Monday , 13 Ih March 18/ 1 . Sir George Grey. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Downing. Mr. Maguire. Viscount Sandon. Mr. James. Mr. Pemberton. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Hardy. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Marquis of Hartington. Marquis of Hartington called to the Chair. The Committee deliberated. Certain Papers were laid before the Committee by the Chairman, and ordered to be printed. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o’clock. Monday , 20 th March 1871. MEMBERS PRESENT: Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Bruen. Sir George Grey. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Downing. Viscount Sandon. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Mr. Plunk et. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. James. Mr. Pemberton. The Committee deliberated.—Motion made, and Question put, “ That Reporters be admitted during the taking of the Evidence”—(Mr. Maguire ).—The Committee divided: Ayes, 3. Mr. Downing. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Noes, 13. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Hardy. Sir George Grey. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Viscount Sandon. Mr. James. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Plunket. Captain Talbot examined. [Adjourned till Wednesday next, at Twelve o’clock. PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE Wednesday , 22 nd March 18/1. MEMBERS PRESENT: Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Mr. Disraeli. Sir George Grey. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Bruen. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. The Committee deliberated. Mr. James. Mr. Downing. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Plunket. Mr. W. H Gregory. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Pemberton. Captain George Talbot further examined. Mr. Morris Reade and Captain William Fitzjames Barry were severally examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o’clock. Thursday , 2'drd March 1871. MEMBERS PRESENT : Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Sir George Grey. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Plunket. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Downing. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. James. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. W H. Gregory. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Ralph Smith Cusach and Mr. J. A. Rochfort-Boyd were severally examined. The Committee deliberated. Rev. J. Crofton examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Twelve o’clock. Friday, 2Atli March 1871. MEMBERS PRESENT: Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Sir George Grey. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Downing. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Plunket. Viscount Sandon. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Gregory. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. William Mooney and Mr. Stephen Seed were severally examined. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve o’clock. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). • • VI] Monday , 2 7th March 1871. MEMBERS PRESENT: Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Sir George Grey. Mr. Disraeli. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr, Downing. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Mr. Bruen. Vicount Sandon. Mr. Plunket. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Robert Julian and the Right Rev. Dr. Nulty were severally examined. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Twelve o’clock. Thursday, 30 th March 1871. MEMBERS PRESENT : Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Mr. Disraeli. Sir George Grey. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Downing. Mr. Plunket. Vicount Sandon. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. Maguire. Mr. James. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Gregory. Mr. J. H. L. Rogers examined. Mr. J. A. Rochfort-Boyd further examined. Mr. N. L. Townsend, Sir John Wood, and Colonel French, a M ember of the House, were severally examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at One o’clock. Friday, 31 st March 187J. MEMBERS PRESENT : Marquis of Hartington in the Chair. Sir George Grey. Mr. Downing. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Plunket. Mr. Hardy. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr Serjeant Sherlock. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. DRAFT REPORT proposed by the Chairman, read the first time, as follows:— ct 1. That there is at present existing within the county of Westmeath and certain adjoining portions of the county of Meath and of the King’s County, an unlawful combination and confederacy of a secret nature, generally known by the name of the Ribbon Society. “ 2. That this Ribbon Society has existed for a considerable length of time, and has lately, as compared with the few preceding years, increased in power and influence. 147. a 4 (( 3. That Vlll PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 3. That owing to the prevalence of this Society, murder and other crimes of the most serious nature have been lately perpetrated within these districts, and that by reason of the sympathy of many persons residing therein with the perpetrators of such crimes, and the terror created by the existence and action of the Society, it has been found to be almost impossible to bring offenders to justice, or, when brought to justice, to ensure their being convicted. “ 4. That such immunity from detection and consequent punishment has had for its result an encouragement to crime, the diffusion of a spirit of lawlessness, and a corresponding decrease of confidence in the power of the law among the peaceful members of the community. “ 5. That this Society, originating in a desire on the part of its members to interfere in an unlawful and violent manner in matters relating to the tenure and occupation of land, has now extended the sphere of its operations, and more or less prejudicially affects other relations of life. “ 6. That this Society has numerous adherents and supporters among the farming classes throughout these districts, and has some sympathisers amongst a certain class of small traders in the towns, and recruits its ranks chiefly from the farm servants and daily labourers; that these persons are under the control of others in a better position than themselves, who may be looked upon as the heads of the Ribbon Society. “ 7. That the effect of the Ribbon Society is to lead directly to the perpetration of the crimes already mentioned, and indirectly to infuse a feeling of terror throughout all classes in these districts, by reason of which the objects of the Society are frequently brought about without any overt act of violence. “ 8. That the Peace Preservation Act, while largely extending the means previously existing for the prevention and detection of crime, and containing for that purpose several effective and useful provisions, has not furnished the Executive with all the power necessary to deal with crime of that organised and secret nature which characterises the districts in question. “ 9. That the Authorities have carried into effect the existing law, including the Peace Preservation Act, vigorously ; but, owing to the causes referred to, in a large number of instances they have been unable to arrest and make amenable to justice either the per¬ petrators of the crimes or the movers and organisers of the Ribbon Society.” Draft Report proposed by the Chairman, read a second time, paragraph by paragraph. Paragraph 1, agreed to. Paragraphs 2—5, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 6.—Amendment made.—Amendment proposed (lines 1, 2), to leave out the words, “ among the farming classes ”—(Mr. Downing ).—Question put. That those words stand part of the paragraph.—The Committee divided : Ayes, 13. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland. Mr. Hardy. Sir George Grey. Colonel Wilson-Patten. Viscount, Sandon. Mr. James. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Bruen. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Plunk et. Noes, 3. Mr. Downing. Mr. Maguire. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. Further Amendments made.—Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraphs 7—9, amended, and agreed to. Question, That this Report, as amended, be the Report of the Committee to the House —put, and agreed to. Ordered , To Report, together with the Minutes of Evidence and an Appendix. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS), IX EXPENSES OF WITNESSES. NAME of WITNESS. PROFESSION or CONDITION. From whence Summoned. Number of Days Absent from Home, under Orders of Committee. Expenses of Journey to London and Back. Allowance during- absence from Home. TOTAL Expenses allowed to Witness. £. s. d. • $ • rf. £. s. d. Cusack, Ralph Smith - Chairman of Railway Company. Dublin 4 5 10 - 4 4 - 9 14 - Crofton, Rev. James - Rector - Dunleer, Co. Louth. 4 6 6 - 4 4 - 10 10 - Mooney, William Solicitor - Mullingar - 4 6 10 - 8 8 - 14 18 - Seed, Stephen - Solicitor - Dublin 4 5 10 - 8 8 - 13 18 - Julian, John Solicitor - Dublin 6 5 10 - 12 12 - 13 2 - Nulty, Right Rev. Thomas. Roman Catholic Bishop Navan, Dub¬ lin. 4 6 _ _ 4 4 - 10 4 - £. 77 6 - r L x ] LIST OF WITNESSES. PAGE Monday , 20 th March 1871. Captain George Talbot - -- -------1 Wednesday, 22 nd March 18/1. Captain George Talbot - -- -- -- -- -19 Mr. William Morris Reade ----------33 Captain William Fitzjames Barry - -- -- -- - 45 Thursday, 23 rd March 1871* Mr. Ralph Smith Cusack - -- -- -- - 50 Mr. George Augustus Rochfort-Boyd ------ - -57 Rev. James Croft on - -- -- -- -- -.39 Friday , 24 th March 1871. Mr. William Mooney ---------- - 72 Mr. Stephen Seed ----------- 89 Monday , TJth March 1871. Mr. John Julien ------------98 The Right Rev. Dr. Thomas Nulty - -- -- -- - 108 Thursday, 30 th March 1871. Mr. Joseph Henry Lyttelton Rogers - - - - - - - -125 Mr. George Augustus Rochfort-Boyd - - - - - - - -135 Mr. Norman Lionel Townsend - - - - - - - - -137 Colonel Sir John Stewart-Wood, K. C.B. - - - - - - 139 Right Hon. Colonel Fitzstephen French, m.p. ------ 144 [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Monday , 20 th March 1871. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mi*. Bruen. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Downing. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Bussell Gurney. Mr. Hardy. The Marquis of Hartington. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. Colonel W^ilson Patten. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Plunket. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. The Solicitor General for Ireland. The Marquis of HARTINGTON, in the Chair. Captain George Talbot, called in ; and Examined. 1 . Chairman.'] Will you inform the Com¬ mittee how long you have been a resident magistrate?—About 18 years. 2 . In what counties have you served ?—First in Mayo, next in Galway, and subsequently in Westmeath. 3. How long did you serve in Westmeath ?—I was there seven years and nine months; speak¬ ing shortly, eight years. I am no longer there now. 4. When did you leave Westmeath?—I left W estmeath in October last. 5. Did you find any great difference in the state of society in Westmeath from that in other parts of Ireland with which you were acquainted before ?—A very great difference. 6 . Will you explain to the Committee in what particular ?—In Mayo the usual crimes, such as assaults and a few larcenies, and crimes of that petty nature, occurred, and the same in Galway ; but in Westmeath I found quite a different state of things. 7. In what respect; will you farther explain the difference ?—In Westmeath I found a great deal of agrarian crime; I found a good many threatening letters, which was the first time I had had any experience of them. I found very great reluctance in giving evidence ; there was very great fear upon the part of all those who were summoned either to give evidence or to prosecute. 8 . Did you find a reluctance to prosecute ?—I could hardly get anybody to prosecute in the case of a crime of an aggravated nature. 9. You say that you found not only a reluc- 0.50. tance to prosecute, but a difficulty in obtaining evidence ?—A very great difficulty; in fact, no one would give me any information. 10 . What appeared to be the cause of that?— A fear of the results, such as their houses being visited, or themselves being beaten, as I have known them to have been. 11 . Should you say that fear rather than simple unwillingness or sympathy with the accused was the feeling which caused that re¬ luctance ?—I think both. There seems to be a natural objection to being called an e< informer,” no matter how trivial the case. 12 . Does your answer refer to the difficulty of getting evidence in all sorts of cases, or only in a particular class of cases ?— In every case except larceny. 13. There you could obtain evidence?—There I could obtain evidence. 14. But in every other case there was a diffi¬ culty ?—In every other case there was extreme reluctance to be brought forward or to be mixed up in the case at all, or even to having their names mentioned. 15. What was the first case of murder that you had to deal with?—The first case was that of a carpenter named Connor. 16. Were there any peculiar features in that case?—There were. He had had some dispute with a herd in the neighbourhood, and he was brutally murdered. I think there were six or seven men present at the murder; his brains were beaten out on the roadside with a stick. 17. Do you remember in what year this was? Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871. 2 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE Tt-lE Captain —I think it was in the summer of the year 1864, G. Talbot, as well as I can remember. - 18. Did anything make you attribute this 20 March murder to the working of the “Ribbon Society ”? 1871 . —Yes; the parties who were arrested were re¬ manded by the local magistrates (assisted by my¬ self) several times, but we could get no evidence whatsoever, except private information through some of the gentry and magistrates, and they were not at liberty to use the names of the parties who informed them. They would not be brought forward, and their passages were, I understand, subsequently paid to America, or at all events they left the country a very short time afterwards. 19. Mr. Barely.'] Do you allude to the persons who gave the information ?—No ; to the persons who were arrested. 20 . Chairman.] Did anything occur shortly after this which made you acquainted with per¬ sons whom you supposed to be connected with this society ?—Yes; from inquiries and by try¬ ing to ascertain the parties who were at the head of this conspiracy, I did inform myself of some persons who I thought were the leading parties in the matter. 21 . In hearing cases of agrarian character, have you observed any indications of the work¬ ing of this society ?—I could always tell before I entered the court-house the nature of the case I had to try, by seeing the same parties at every petty sessions, whenever there was a crime of that particular nature to be tried. 22 . Mr. Bruen.] Do you mean in different parts of the county?—Yes, through the whole of the district. 23. Chairman.] You saw certain parties in court?—I saw certain parties in court watching the case, and exhibiting always an interest in it. 24. As spectators ?—Yes. 25. And what is your impression as to the object for which they came there ?—I could have but one impression, namely, that they had some private business there, and were interested in the case; and I eventually observed that wher¬ ever this occurred they were more or less in¬ terested ; they were deeply interested in every case. 26. Of what class of persons were these ?— They were not large farmers; there were only two or three large farmers I should say, that is to say, middle class farmers. The remainder were generally small holders. 27. But they were above the labouring class ? —They were decidedly above the labouring class. 28. You observed that these particular indivi¬ duals were present at the hearing of agrarian cases at first; did you obseiwe that continue during the whole of the time that you were in Westmeath?—Invariably the whole time. 29. You believe that they attend there to watch the cases ?—I believe so; it is my impres¬ sion that they are there to watch the cases. 30. On behalf of members of their society ?— Yes, on behalf of their interests. 31. When you say they are there to watch their interests, what do you conceive their in¬ terests to be ?—I have made myself acquainted with the fact that there exists an unlawful con¬ spiracy society, of which I believe those parties to be members. 32. What Avas the next murder which came under your notice ?—The next murder Avas that of a man of the name of Walsh. 33. In Avhat year Avas that ? — I think it Avas in the spring of 18j£4. He Avas sowing his corn at the time he Avas murdered. 34. You say that Connor’s murder Avas in 1863?—I think it Avas in 1863. It is a very long time ago. I cannot be quite sure of the date. 35. Was the murder of Walsh of an agrarian character ?—Certainly ; I think so. 36. What Avas supposed to be the object of that?—From the inquiries I made I understood that tAvo men of the name of Cooney Avere the outgoing tenants of a farm, and Walsh’s father had purchased an interest in the farm; he had paid a sum of money, I think, amounting to 20 1 .; I Avill not be quite certain of the amount, and Cooney expected to have got the Avhole sum, Avhereas some portion of the sum Avas retained on account of arrears of rent. Walsh was then ordered to quit the farm, which he did not do. 37. By Avhom Avas he ordered to quit ?—By the Cooneys, as Avell as I remember. He got a threatening letter, ordering him to evacuate the farm. 38. Was he ordered to do so directly by the Cooneys ?—As well as I can recollect an armed party Avent to the house, and he also received a threatening letter. 39. Neither the armed party nor the threaten¬ ing letter AAmuld come ostensibly from the Cooneys?—I presume I could not say that, but the subsequent proceedings proved that evidently they did come from the Cooneys. 40. What steps Avere taken in this case?— Some three or four of those parties were arrested for the crime, and one of the parties Avho was at the shooting of Walsh, and Avho Avas arrested, turned informer. Subsequently a second member of the party arrested turned informer, so that we had two informers then, and they Avere both, I think, at Ballybough, the Government depot at Dublin for Crown Avitnesses. As it came near the as¬ sizes this last approAer absconded, and there Avas then but one appro\ r er; and as Ave could not cor¬ roborate his evidence in any other way, the case did not go for trial. 41. The victim did not die at once, I believe ? —He died a Aveek afterwards. 42. Did he identify the parties? —No; we confronted the prisoners, mixed Avith others, Avith the victim, and he refused to identify the party. 43. Had you reason to think that he Avas unable to identify him?—I am quite sure that he kneAV him. 44. What made you think that?—From his being in close proximity to him in the neigh¬ bourhood, and from information that Ave had received that he did knoAV him. 45. Under Avhat circumstances did the ap¬ prover abscond; Iioav did that take place ? —I can only say from hearsay; but I believe that influence Avas brought to bear upon him by the Cooneys, and he Avas made aAvay Avith. 46. Was he not in gaol?—No, he was not; he Avas a CroAvn Avitness. CroAvn Avitnesses are at large ; they only receive their support from the Government, they are at perfect liberty to move about. 47. Sir G. Grey.] 'i'liis approver had been in charge, had he not ?—Yes; but his evidence had been taken, and he Avas at large. 48. Chairman. 3 SELECT COMMITTEE OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 48. Chairman.'] Was there not any power of keeping him in custody ?—Not that I am aware of, as the Government had accepted his sworn in¬ formation ; he was not charged with murder, he was only charged with conspiracy as being one of the party. 49. The prisoner was acquitted, I believe ?— He was discharged by the judge, as the Crown were not able to go to trial. 50. In the investigation of this case, did you see any traces of a “Ribbon Society”?—Ye 3 , L certainly ; these men were brought from a neigh- 1 bouring county; they were entertained in Cooney’s house during the night with whiskey and provisions: the arms had been hidden in a straw-stack outside the house, and they were guided across the bog, to where the outrage took place, by the Coonoys, in two parties, so as not to attract the attention of the police. They reached the farm about one o’clock in the day¬ time, whilst the man was sowing his corn ; they put him on his knees, and shot at him; but one of the parties said, “ Do not kill him, but only shoot him in the legs, so as to disable him and it was of those wounds that he subsequently died. 51. Where did you get this information?— From one of the approvers, as well as I can recollect; I should say that what made this man turn approver was that he was tracked; there was a clever constable who had got the track of his shoe, and by some peculiar arrangement of the nails in it, he tracked him all the way, or most of the way into the field, which was a newly ploughed and harrowed field, and into one ditch in particular; and when this witness found that he was so pushed to it, and found out in this way, he offered to give his whole evidence, which he did. 52. Was that the approver who afterwards absconded?—No, it was not that one who ab¬ sconded ; it was the one who subsequently gave his evidence who absconded. 53. Was the evidence which you obtained from this man upon oath?—I cannot speak at this distance of time with reference to that; my habit, in a case of that sort, is not to swear an informer, but to take his statements first, to see if they are of any value, and then to swear him, after consideration, if I were allowed to do so upon consultation ; if he had been a principal party I never would have taken his statement, but being only charged with being one of a party, I most likely submitted the question to Government for advice. 54. Did he give his evidence upon the in¬ vestigation before the magistrate ? — I cannot say where he gave the evidence, it being such a long time ago. 55 . He gave his evidence before you?—He gave it before me, but I cannot say where at this distance of time ; 1 know that all my brother magistrates in the locality were acquainted with the nature of his evidence. 56. Mr. Hardy.] You do not know whether he was committed upon that evidence, or whether he was committed subsequently to that evidence ? —The approver gave his evidence after the prisoners were committed, because he was one of them. 57. Sir G. Grey.] Upon what evidence were those prisoners committed for trial ?—The event occurred eight years ago, and I cannot exactly recollect, but the usual course is this : 0.50. very often a constable who has received infor¬ mation may come and state, that from information which he has received, he believes that such and such parties were implicated in such a murder, and very often in such a case I issue a warrant to arrest and bring the parties before us. 58. The Solicitor General for Ireland.] I think you have not observed the distinction between “ committed” and “ remanded ” ?—The prisoners in question were remanded and not committed for trial until after several investigations, and after the approvers’ evidence had been taken he was committed for trial. 59. Chairman.] What was the next serious Ribbon case in which you had to act; I believe there was a case in 1865 ; there was an attack upon Mr. Gavan’s house, was there not?—That is in the same neighbourhood; there was an attack made upon some farmers of the name of Gavan. 60. What occurred in that case ?—The Gavans were two brothers who were very large farmers. I should think they held something like 300 or 400 acres, and they were tenants of Mr. Balfour. One of them died, and there was considerable jealously between the wife of the man who died and her brother-in-law. The Gavan who died made a will in favour of one of his nephews, and the relatives of the widow felt very great jealousy of this will which was made; Mr. Gavan’s house was visited, and he was told to have nothing to say to the lands of Castletost, which were the lands that were to be given up to him by the sheriff on the 1 st of November, the outrage occurring upon the 30th of October. The house was visited by an armed party who fired several shots, and although the sons, two able-bodied men, who were licensed for arms, and had arms, were inside, they made no resist¬ ance. 61. Was anybody injured?—Nobody was in¬ jured; they only shot in the air just to give notice as it were. 62. Were the orders you refer to given upon this same occasion?—The orders were given upon the same occasion to have nothing to say to the lands of Castletost. I examined the servant boy who lived in the house, who I understood had an opportunity of seeing the parties through his windows, it being a moonlight night, and believing, as I did, the parties who were present to have been neighbours of theirs, I was satisfied from the demeanour of the witness whom I was examining that he knew them perfectly well, but he refused absolutely to tell me about them, and denied all knowledge of them. Mr. Gavan himself said he did not see them. 63. Mr. Pemberton ] Was there any attempt at disguise?—No, I think not, but it was bright moonlight, and from the position the boy de¬ scribed himself to have occupied, looking out of the window, he must have seen them. 64. Chairman.] Did any outrage follow these threats?—I cannot say how long afterwards, but a short time afterwards, as young John Gavan and his mother and another, I think, were going to mass, just as they turned out of the gate, which was a common iron farm gate, they were fired at while the car was slowly taking a turn and he was opening the gate. The ball must have passed within a few inches of their heads, because I observed a place like a rabbit hole or a hare path in the hedgeway and the branch of an oak tree was cut, and taking a direct line from A 2 the Captain G. Talbot. ‘20 March 1871. 7 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. so March 1871. the branch of the tree the ball must have passed just close by their heads. 65. They had disregarded the warning ? — Yes, they held the land. 66 . Were any particulars of this outrage dis¬ covered ?—Not beyond this. We found a soda- water bottle. One bottle is generally so very like another that one would say it would be difficult to identify it, but this one appeared to have a dinge in it, and we ascertained that a soda-water bottle with a pint of whisky in it had been sold by a publican of very bad character in the neighbourhood to parties whom we suspected, and this soda-water bottle that he had sold had had a dinge in it. 67. Did Gavan continue to hold the land ?— Gavan continued to hold the land. 68. Was he attacked afterwards?—No, not that I am aware of. 69. Did you take any measures in consequence of this outrage?—Yes; I recommended that extra police should be placed upon the townland and taxed upon it; they remained there for some time. I cannot say how long, I think it was six months, and I was repeatedly applied to by the people to try to get them away. I said that as soon as the lands were settled, and there was no more question about it, that might be a subject that might be my duty to submit to the proper authorities. 70. Were any arrests made in consequence of that outrage ?—There were two parties arrested,, not for being the actual perpetrators of the firing at the Gavans, but for having conspired in the public-house to get it done. 71. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. ] I suppose the man who bought the soda-water bottle full of whisky was arrested?—Yes, he was. 72. Chairman .] Were those persons committed for trial ?—No; we could not identify the bottle ; the soda-water bottle was not considered sufficient evidence, and that was the only clue we had to it, except the remains of a little whisky in the bottom of it, but we could not say that it was actually his whisky. 73. Upon whom were those extra police charged ?—They were charged upon the town lands immediately situated round the locality of the crime. 74. Mr. Maguire. ] Had the Gavans to pay any of the tax?—The Gavans, I think, were exempt, they being the parties injured. 75. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. ] That is the usual course, is it not, to exempt the parties injured?—Yes, that is the usual course. 76. Chairman .] Were any special orders given to the police in consequence of that ?—Yes, that they were to be more active; to patrol constantly, and to make some concentrated patrol, so as to meet at certain spots, and to patrol every road. 77. In what way has that system of patrolling worked ?—Latterly, up to the time of lYI r. Anke- tell’s murder, the usual course was for each parish to patrol as often as the men could afford to go out. They have a great many duties ; they are out every night and every morning; they are gene¬ rally out at those times, according to circum-. stances, when they think that it is most likely' they will meet any parties moving about. 78. What do you call “concentrated patrol”? —What I mean by “ concentrated patrol ” is this : that after the time when the Castle Pollard district was so disturbed by armed parties going about, I requested the Government to afford me cars for the more speedy proceeding of the police to a particular place. I requested the county inspector to send 20, or 30, or 40 men on cars from Mullingar to the Castle Pollard district, so that they went forth in small parties through every road after a certain hour at night; and in that way every road was patrolled at night, meeting at a central point by agreement. 79. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.^ When was that system introduced ?—I think it was introduced about two years ago, or a year and a-ha If before I left the district. 80. In the year 1869?—Yes. 81. Chairman .] Do you think that that system of patrolling has been of any use ?—I think it did good so far as this, that the people saw that the police passed their houses on every road on the same night; and I think they must have communicated to each other that every road was patrolled. 82. Mr. Russell Gurney.~\ Not at the same time ?—No, certainly not. If we passed down a certain road at nine o’clock on Monday night, we would not do it until, say, four in the morn¬ ing on Wednesday or Thursday. 83. Chairman .] What other steps did you take in the matter at that time with respect to arms ?—The county being proclaimed, I refused licenses for arms to anybody except to those of unexceptionable character, and who were recom¬ mended, not only by a magistrate, but by the constabulary also. 84. Did you have any searches made for arms ?—Constant searches were made for arms, but at that time those searches were very much hampered, as the warrant was only good, I think, for 21 days, and it was to be in the hands of the sub-inspector; but that has been altered by the late Act, and a warrant now is good for a much longer period, and need not be in the hands of a sub-inspector. There was also a general simultaneous search made throughout every district in the whole county, by direction of his Excellency. 85. Have any of those searches had any result ? —They had one very important result, namely, the discovery (they were almost the only arms found, with the exception of a few old barrels) of the arms which were found in the house of a man named Burne, close to Mullingar; they there found two loaded pistols and a canister of powder, and some bullets, hidden in the upper part of the house, and one of those Burne’s was arrested for being one of the parties who mur¬ dered Mr. Anketell. 86 . The attempt on Mr. Hornidge took place in 1866, did it not ?—Yes, on the 24th of June 1866 ; that was on a Sunday. 87. Were any persons arrested for that at¬ tempt?—Yes, five altogether, but four only were retained in custody. 88 . Were you able to obtain any evidence in that case?—No direct evidence ; a good deal of circumstantial evidence. 89. Have you reason to think that anybody could have given you evidence ?—I am quite sure they could. A woman, who must have known the parties, and who gave them a drink of water as they went away, not a quarter of a mile from the scene, refused positively to give us any evidence. 90. Did she refuse to give evidence at all ?— She denied knowing them at all; she said she saw two men, but did not know them ; 1 think, at 5 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATTT, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). at first, she refused to give any evidence. In this case there was a very curious piece of cir¬ cumstantial evidence with respect to the wadding of the gun that w r as picked up. It was put together by Mr. Heed, who was with me then, and it turned out, when put on paper and neatly fitted, to be a portion of the pattern of the sleeve of a woman’s jacket. The prisoner had slept the night before in a house in the King’s County, where, in a drawer of a table, was found the re¬ mainder of the pattern which had evidently been torn off, and the tear exactly fitted to the end of the wad ; the gun had been loaded evidently from that pattern. 91. Was anybody committed for trial in that case ?—No ; they were committed for further examination, but not committed for trial. 92. Without going through the various cases which occurred between that time and last winter, murders, and attempts to murder, took place in almost every year, did they not, in the county of Westmeath?—In every year; gene¬ rally the summer months are free from crime to a great extent. 93. But matters got worse, I think, in the winter of 1869-70?—They didin 1868, 1869, and 1870. Mr. Fetherston Haugh’s case occurred, I think, in April 1868, at the time of the Cattle Show; he was murdered. 94. Wm you state what that case was ?—Mr. Fetherston Haugh had had some disputes with his tenants; he had given them notice that he would raise the rent upon some of the tenants in a townland named Ballyhaugh, and there was a millowner there who held a mill at a very re¬ duced rent. Mr. Fetherston Haugh considered that the mill was worth something like 40 /. a year more, and he noticed the tenant that he would require that rent from him. The party most in¬ terested in the mill was a young man, a relation by marriage of the tenant, and he it was who went with three others to pay the rent to Mr. Fetherston Haugh, who I should say used to receive his own rents. These parties went to the office, and they tendered him the old rent, and he refused to take it; they put the rent in their pocket, and they returned all three in a car. They did not go to their own house, but they went to a public-house, where they drank. They were traced there, and then they were traced to another public-house. There they de¬ liberated with closed* doors, and returned after nightfall to their own house. The following day but one Mr. Fetherston Haugh went to Dublin, and he came home by the mail train. His coach¬ man met him with a dog cart, and as they rode up the hill about a mile and a half from Killuean, and about six from his residence, the mare used generally to go with rather a rush at the hill at first, and then walk towards the top of it; and as his mare broke into a walk a man came close behind him on his left side, fired at him, and hit him on the shoulder, and the bullet entered his body; it must have been very close, as his coat was singed by the flash. This occurred within about a hundred yards of a house, liis servant got out of the dog cart, and went to the house; there was a light in the house, but they refused at first to open the door. At last a woman came out, and subsequently the son came out and refused to give the coachman any assistance whatever, and denied all hearing of the shot or anything else. The coachman had to drive on to another house. His master 0.50. was lying, across the dog cart, and he thought Captain that he might still be alive. He went to another G. Talbot. house and was still refused admittance, and I ~\r~ believe he called subsequently at a third house, 20 ^ arc 1 and being still refused he drove home to the 1 7! ‘ residence into the yard, when he found that his master was dead. 95. He could get no assistance till he got home ?—He could get no assistance till he got home. I observed in that case the most extreme reluctance upon the part of all to give any evi¬ dence or show the slightest sympathy. 96. Was there anybody whom you have reason to suppose was in a position to give evidence ?— I am perfectly certain that the whole neighbour¬ hood were perfectly well aware of the occurrence, not only the parties immediately concerned, but others, knew that he was to have been shot. 97. Were any persons arrested?—There were two arrested. 98. Why were you certain that the whole neighbourhood were aware of it?—I was certain the whole neighbourhood were aware of it from the demeanour of the people, and from informa¬ tion I received from detectives and from police. 99. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.] Conversations were repeated to you at the time ?—Conversations were repeated to me, and it was a well known thing that Mr. Fetherston Haugh was shot, and the usual answer to questions about it in the county say “ served him right.” 100. Was that answer given to you?—Never to me, but that was what I understood from the police and from the detectives I had down, that that was “ the price of him,” “ that was his value.” It meant that that was the reward he ought to get. 101 . Did you examine many persons yourself whom you thought likely to give evidence ?— Yes, I did; I had four men committed for further examination under suspicion; the four men whose rent was raised, and whose movements that night could not be accounted for to my satisfaction. 102 . Did you suspect any of them of having been the actual assassins ?—No, I did not sus¬ pect them to be the actual assassins, but they were the men that drove on the car; they were the tenants who had tendered the rent, who had deliberated with closed doors in the public-house. I thought their going by their own house and going from public-house to public-house a very strange thing, and I committed them. I am satisfied also that they were parties to the crime. 103. What was the result of the arrest ?— The persons arrested were ultimately discharged for want of evidence. 104. There was no evidence?—There wasno evidence. One of the parties was a workman in an iron foundry establishment. 105. In that neighbourhood, or distant from it ?—In that neighbourhood ; there was some evidence got of two children having seen two men seated upon a wall that night very near the time when Mr. Featherston Haugh was fired at, in the direct line and near the spot. 106. Mr. Russell Gurney.~\ Two of those men who were discharged immediately emigrated, I think ?—One of them did, the other was kept in custody. 107. Chairman.'] How long were those men kept in custody ?—I could not be positive as to the length of time, but I am sure they were kept about three weeks or a month before they a 3 were 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Oiptnin were discharged. The evidence against one of O'. Talbot, them was that before his arrest, he said in the ~~ workshop the moment he came to work that 2 ° aicn morn i n g to his fellow workman, “ Fetherston was shot last nightthe other said, “ What did he say ?” and the man then repeated the words which Mr. Fetherston Haugh had made use of, “ Oh, my God, I am done for.” He said that himself, so it occurred to me that it was a very odd thing that as Mr. Fetherston Haugh was shot between 9 and 10 o’clock at night, a man coming to work the first thing in the morning should know so accurately the words the man shot had made use of. 108. Did you receive much information at that time ?—None but that of the two children who saw these two men close to the spot, and the ex¬ pressions made use of by Mr. Fetherston Haugh as I have described. 109. But you stated, that from detectives and informers you received information ?— I re¬ ceived worthless information; the mere gossip of countrymen; no real evidence whatever. 110 . Could Mr. Fetherston Haugh’s coach¬ man give any evidence?—No, not beyond the detail I have given, which he swore to. 111 . Would he have had the opportunity of seeing the man?—No; Mr. Fetherston Haugh was a very big man, and the coachman was a short man, and would have been unable to see the assassin. 112 . From information you received, you formed the opinion that the whole country was aware, both before and after, that he was going to be shot ?—Yes, that was notorious. 113. Did you feel equally certain that they knew who did it ?—I feel morally certain that they knew who did it. 114. The actual assassin ? — The actual assassin. 115. In your experience, is that always known in the countrv ?—I am certain it is known. 116. Is it not usual that a stranger is brought to do it? —Yes, it is, but it is known to the parties who bring him; and if it is known to the parties who bring him, it is known to a great many others. 117. What is the object of bringing a stranger generally into the county to commit the crime ? —That they may not be identified by par¬ ties ; to throw some difficulty in the way of detection. 118. That they may not be identified by parties, or by the police ?—The police never have a chance of seeing them ; they watch the police too well. 119. But so long as they escape identification by the person actually assailed, they are not very anxious to conceal themselves from the country people ?—Certainly not; I do not think they take any pains to conceal themselves from the ordinary country people. 120 . W as Mr. Anketell’s the next serious ease ?—I think Mr. Anketell’s was the next serious case; there were several visitings of houses, and beatings, and so on, but Mr. Anke- tell’s was the next murder, I think, of any importance. 121. Mr. Anketell was the station master at Mullingar, I think?—He was. 122 . Was he shot dead?—No, he had five bullet wounds, I think, but he lived for about three days, as well as I can remember. 123. Could he identify any one?—No, he stated to me that he could not identify the man. He had seen the mail train leave; that was the last train on the line ; and he had crossed the line into his own yard, through a wicket, and on the right hand side as he entered, the door being on the left, there was a window with a light in it which threw a light on to the door the minute it was opened. The parties who shot him were at about 10 yards distance. There was a garden and a little wicket gate. There were two steps going up; they stood on the steps in the shade, and as lie opened the door the light was thrown directly upon him, and as he was crossing the angle of the yard they fired at him. 124. How did you ascertain those facts which you have mentioned ?—We ascertained the place where they stood to shoot at him from the fact that there was a turf-house close to the steps, with a little straw in it, and they had taken the straw out. The police tracked the men first to the garden, it being a wet evening. There were fresh tracks into the garden, and there was some straw taken out of the turf-house and placed upon the steps as if to deaden the sound of any person going up the steps, and subsequently we were confirmed in that view by an informer, who swore that the two men stood upon the steps, one upon the upper and one upon the lower. 125. Had Mr.* Anketell been threatened before ?—Mr. Anketell had been threatened, but he had never made any official complaint of it. 126. What had he been threatened with ?—I cannot say ; he never reported it to me; it never came before me officially that he had been threatened, but I believe from inquiries that he had said to several people that he would meet with some accident some day. 127. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.~\ Why was that?—He did not say. 128. Chairman .] What did you believe to have been the reason?—I believe the reasons were many. He was a very strict, honest, con¬ scientious man. He had discharged a good many of the railway servants, and on that day he had deprived a smith of his garden, and the garden had been thrown into his own. That was alleged to be one reason. The other reasons were that there was a dispute between some of the servants on account of a ticket taker having orange lillies in his office, and he had been told by Mr. Anketell that he would report him, but he did not do so. Others said it was on account (and I believe this to have been the real cause) of the facilities which he afforded the police of having access to the stores at all times, which deprived the Fenians and the Ribbonmen of facilities for landing their arms which were being landed at that time, and deprived them of facilities which they used to have of having arms and other materials conveyed by railway to Mullingar. 129. There was nothing agrarian about the case except perhaps the garden ?—I should be sorry to say that the garden had not something to do with it; I should think it had, but it was a combination of everything. 130. Was Mr. Anketell an unpopular man ? —He was very unpopular amongst the railway people. 131. Did the police know that his life was in any danger?—No, certainly not. 132. He had never told the police that he had been threatened?—Not that I am aware of; he never even asked me for arms, that 1 am aware of. 133. Did SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 133. Did you get any information about this case?—We got a great deal of information about it. 134. Were any arrests made?—There were two arrests made; the circumstantial evidence was very strong indeed against the parties. 135. What evidence had you against them?— We had evidence from one woman who lived in the house where one of the prisoners lived, and she made a long statement as to the conversations between him and his wife, which she overheard through a chink in the floor, in which he ac¬ knowledged himself as having been the man who shot Mr. Anketell. This man has since been charged with another shooting, but he has been discharged. When I say that we get informa- mation, I wish to be understood to say that we do not get information that we can use, but every information I get is “ on condition that my name is not used,” or “ that I am in no way brought forward.” 136. Mr. Downing .] And that is not on oath ? —That is not on oath; and if that promise was not given we should receive no information whatever. 137. Chairman. ] Did you say that you got in¬ formation sufficient to commit those men for trial?—No; the Attorney General was very reluctant to postpone the trial for one assizes, and he was extremely reluctant to discharge them, even at the last, but we could get no more evidence. 138. You kept them in custody for some time ?—They were close upon a year in custody. 139. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.'] Is Murray still in the country ?—Murray is still in the country, and so is Byrnes. 140. Was the Peace Preservation Act passed shortly after this ?—The Peace Preservation Act was passed in April 1870; this was in 1869. 141. Chairman .] During the time you have known the County Westmeath, have there been any cases of homicides or serious outrage in which there has been a conviction ?—No, I do not know any case of homicide, or of serious out¬ rage, in which there has been any conviction; there has been a conviction in a case of threaten¬ ing letters, which is the only serious case I know in which a conviction took place. 142. Have any of those cases gone before a jury?—Yes, there was one that went before a jury, a very serious case. 143. What case was that? — The case of visiting Cassidy’s house with an armed party. 144. Will you give the Committee the par¬ ticulars of that case?—Two brothers had a dis¬ pute about land, and the house of one of them was visited; a pistol was presented at the door, and shots were fired, and he was asked to come out, and he was warned to give up a certain portion of land that his brother claimed. It was a dispute about a fence between them, and the man in question was brought from a distance from Westmeath and put upon his trial, and the trial occupied a day and a-half, I think, before the Lord Chief Baron. He was acquitted, and he was received with an ovation by the people outside; that happened the very night that Mr. Anketell was shot. 145. Where was this man tried for the murder of Mr. Anketell?—At Mullingar; at the as¬ sizes. 146. You obtained sufficient evidence in that case to put him on his trial?—We obtained his 0.50. 7 identification by the woman, which was the only identification 1 know of ; that was by the man’s sister. 147. She came forward to identify him?_ Yes ; after a great deal of pressure, and a great deal of persuasion, she identified him, and she kept up to her identification. At first she point¬ edly identified him; she was anxious that her brother should be vindicated. 148. Mr. Downing .] What was the name of the party tried?—Freele was the name of the party tried; there was a great dispute about the cap he wore; I think he was acquitted upon that account. I ascertained afterwards that he had turned his cap inside out. 149. Chairman .] Were you able to obtain much other evidence upon that case ?—It was a perfectly clear case, as I thought. 150. What other evidence were you able to obtain in that case?—We traced him to the town, and we traced him close to the place, and we had a .person able positively to identify him. 151. Was the evidence entirely police evi¬ dence, or other evidence?—It was the evidence of the girl who met him at the house. 152. But except that, and the evidence of the police, did you have any other evidence ?—Ex¬ cept her evidence, and the evidence of the police, we had none. If I am not mistaken, the man boasted after he was acquitted that he was the party. 153. Is that the only case which you can recollect that has been brought before a jury?— That is all I can recollect within my time of ever having been able to go for trial. 154. You have obtained a conviction for writing a threatening letter, have you not?— Yes. 155. Frequently?—One conviction. 156. One conviction only?—One conviction only- 157. During all this time you have been speaking of, besides these serious outrages, minor outrages have been very frequent, have they not?—They have been constant in one season of the year, that is from October to March and April. 158. And of what description are those out¬ rages ?—Visiting houses, writing threatening letters and intimidation with regard to land ?— It often happens that if a herd is discharged, you are ordered not to discharge that herd or to take another. 159. And the new herd himself is frequently threatened, is he not ?—Constantly; he is ordered to leave. Mr. Fetherston Haugh’s steAvard Avas fired at several times. Mr. Fetherston Haugh’s work bill used to be 40/. a Aveek, and noAv he told me the other day that it Avas only 3/., he had discharged all his labourers in consequence of these outrages, and that he had only three or four men. 160. Sir G. Grey.~\ Is that the son of the man who Avas shot ?—That is the cousin of the man who was shot; he Avas a man of about 5,000/. a year, a very large proprietor, and he had built houses for all his labourers. 161. Chairman .] Have you any reason to sup¬ pose that the Avhole of these visits by armed parties, Avriting threatening letters, and other outrages, are reported to the police ?—I am cer¬ tain that all the visiting of houses by armed parties are reported to the police, but I am quite sure that not all the threatening letters, or per- a 4 haps Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871. 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. 20 March ] 871. haps not more than one-third, are reported to the police. 162. You think that the visits by armed parties are reported to the police?—Yes, I should say so, certainly. 163. Do you think that the aggrieved person comes forward in all cases ?—No, but it has come to the notice of the police through others, and the police go to visit the parties, and they must admit upon questioning that they were visited but they cannot identify the people ; that is in¬ variably the course the thing takes. 164. What was the elfect of the passing of the Peace Preservation Bill; did you observe that it had any effect ?—I think the effect immediately for some months after the passing of the Act was a very good one. It happened just at the time of year certainly when crime generally ceases, that is about April, but it was reported to me by the police that nobody was out at night, that nobody was to be found on the roads after sunset. 165. Did you hear of any of the worst cha¬ racters leaving the district ?—I heard of a good many of the bad characters having left the dis¬ trict in anticipation of legislation; they thought that a very severe measure was going to be passed, and some of the lower orders left en¬ tirely. 166. Did they leave the district before the Act was passed, or afterwards ?—I am not speaking of my own knowledge, but of from what I heard. The police said that they had left the neighbour¬ hood. 167. What time was that?—Just previous to the passing of the Act. 168. Are you aware whether they have re¬ turned?—I am not aware of it. I think they went to America, and certainly the probability is that they did not return. 169. When did you leave the county?—In October last. 170. Had crime broken out before you left? — Yes, it was just beginning Avhen I left. 171. In any very serious case, or only in minor cases ?—In such cases as visiting houses. 172. Had that become frequent?—It was just beginning ; about two or three cases I think had been reported. Captain Barry succeeded me then. 173. On the passing of the Peace Preserva¬ tion Act, what steps did you take to carry out its provisions ?—I explained to the police what appeared to me to be the most important clause, that is to say, the 23rd, empowering them to arrest parties out one hour after sunset under suspicious circumstances, and the power to arrest strangers in the district. 174. Was your district specially proclaimed? —Yes, it was immediately specially proclaimed. 175. Under the second part of the Peace Pre¬ servation Act? — Yes, under part 2 of the Peace Preservation Act. 176. Were many persons brought before you under that section?—I think there were about five, or six, or seven cases brought before me by the notice under the 23rd section. 177. Were you able to convict any of them? —1 did in two cases convict them at once, imme¬ diately after the passing of the Act. 178. V\ ere they two individual cases?—Yes. 179. But in other cases what steps were taken ?—The other cases were more of a trivial character; it was on St. John’s night, when it is usual for boys and girls to be out a little on the roads with bonfires, and I did not consider that those were suspicious circumstances, although it was a little after sunset, so 1 dismissed the cases. 180. The arrest of those five or six persons under this Act does not appear to be a great re¬ sult ?—The arrest of the first two in the Castle Pollard district had in my humble judgment a very good effect; that was immediately after the passing of the Act, as well as I can recollect. In the month of May the proclamation had been issued, and after that the police brought up these two people ; they were boys of bad character, and when I swore them they refused to give any account of themselves. The clause empowers me to make them give an account of themselves on oath, but they refused to do so, so I consi¬ dered that their being men of bad character in Westmeath, and their refusing to account for their movements was sufficient to justify me in giving them one month’s imprisonment. 181. Sir G. Grey. ] The Act giving you power to imprison them for six months?—Yes, Dut I thought as a beginning it was better to give them only one month. There is a great doubt about the “ suspicious circumstances.” 182. Mr. R. Gurney.\ It need not be under suspicious circumstances under the 23rd section for you to apprehend them, is it ?—It must be. 183. The section says, “ It shall be lawful for any justice of the peace to arrest and bring be¬ fore him, or cause to be arrested or brought be¬ fore him, or for any constable, peace officer, or other person to arrest and bring before any jus¬ tice of the peace any person who, within any district specially proclaimed, and under suspicious circumstances, shall be in the fields, streets, highways, or elsewhere out of his dwelling or place of abode, at any time from one hour after sunset until sunrise, and any such justice may order such person to be brought or appear before the justices of the peace assembled at the next petty sessions for the district in which such per¬ son was arrested, and may in the meantime com¬ mit such person to gaol or admit him to bail, as to such justice shall seem fit”?—Yes, but pre¬ vious to that he must have been found out under suspicious circumstances. 184. Chairman.~\ You say that you explained to the police the meaning of this section accord¬ ing to your opinion ?—I did. 185. Have you consulted with the constabulary- officers upon its operation ?—I did at the time. I explained to them that my idea of the section was that in the case of any person of bad cha¬ racter out at night who was not able to state that he was on some lawful and legitimate busi¬ ness, it was their duty to bring him before me. 186. Are you aware that that Act has been extensively put in force in the county of West¬ meath ?—I am aware that it was acted upon in every district in my part of Westmeath, and I think that the police were very zealous in bring¬ ing such cases forward. 187. Are you aware whether many persons have been convicted under this section ?—I am not aware of that, beyond my own district I convicted two. I wish to say that the police in¬ formed me that, after the passing of the Act, and for two or three months up to the month of July, when I went on leave, the roads were absolutely 9 SELECT COMMITTEE OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). absolutely deserted at night, that nobody was out at night. 188. Are you not aware that in very many instances persons brought before the magistrates under this section by the police, have been dis¬ charged for want of proof of the “ suspicious circumstances ” ? —I have heard the report, but I am not aware of it as a fact. I believe it to have occurred that some magistrates have discharged ihem. 189. But in your opinion the fact of a bad character being found out at night, and not being able to account satisfactorily for himself, is sufficient to warrant you to commit him under the Act?—Certainly, when I swear him and he does not satisfy me as to his legitimate business. It is quite in his power to satisfy me when I swear him. 190. Have you found it frequently happen that the worst characters, when they are out upon some unlawful business, are provided with a very good excuse ?—Certainly it may be so. 191. Have you had any cases of that kind brought before you ?—I cannot say that I have; there was a case that I met with of that descrip¬ tion when I was leaving the county, but I left it to be determined by my successor. I am not aware that it was brought, forward under the Act, although I advised the police to bring it forward. 192. Have you been able to make any use of the 13th section of the Act, the marginal note of •which is, “In proclaimed districts where felony is committed, justices may summon persons sus¬ pected of being capable of giving evidence in relation to such offence, and punish persons re¬ fusing to give evidence”?—I have never had any occasion to use it. 193. But no very serious case has come before you since the passing of this Act?—No very serious case. It was passed in April 1870, and in the summer of 1870 there was no serious crime I think until the beginning of October last. 194. Sir G. Grey.] Then you had left the county, had you not?—Then I had left the county. 195. Chairman.] During the time you were in Westmeath, you have made, I believe, exten¬ sive inquiries into the nature and origin of this Ribbon Society?—Yes, I inquired, as it was my duty to inquire, into its nature and into its working, as far as I could. 196. What sources of information did you have ?—I had it from some informers, who in¬ formed me of it. 1S7. While you have been in Westmeath, has any Ribbon Lodge ever been surprised; have any papers been found ?—Yes; I do not wish to say it was a Ribbon Lodge, but there was a meeting certainly discovered while I was in Mullingar. If the Committee wish, I will descx*ibe the way in which it occurred. 198. Was there anything found ?—Yes, there was, 199. What was found? — A printed paper, purporting to have been an oath, was found in two parts. 200 . Perhaps you will be good enough to state to the Committee the circumstances under which that meeting was surprised ?—There was a policeman who received some information with reference to the matter, and he went to a house in Mullingar where he was informed there was 0.50. to be a meeting; he pushed in the door; there was a man in the passage, and he pushed him aside, but this man had previously given some warning, and he entered the room from which a number of men were rushing out by another door ; he saw the last man going out; he heard the footsteps of others; one man attempted to put out the gas, upon which he collared him and ar¬ rested him, and on the floor, or on the table, I am not sure quite which, he found a paper containing printe d matter, torn in two pieces, and this was brought to me ; it was an oath, in the strongest language, binding the parties to fraternity and, I think, secrecy, exclusive dealing, and, I think, the murder of some of Her Majesty’s subjects. 201 . Mr. Russell Gurney.] Have you the paper with you ?—No, I sent it to the Government with my official reports. 202 . Chairman.'] Was that a public-house ?— Yes, it was a public-house ; it was partly an hotel and partly a public-house. 203. Mr. Bruen] By whom was the public- house kept ?—I do not wish to give the names of the parties unless the Committee particularly desire it. 204. Chairman. J When was this ?—I think it was in the winter of 1869. I find it was on the 4th of May 1869. 205. You say that one man was arrested ?— Yes, and he was subsequently discharged. 206. Was he not committed for trial ?— No. 207. Was he brought before you, or before any other magistrate?—He was brought before me. I took the opinion of the Government upon the subject, and it ended by there not being sufficient evidence to commit him. 208. What was he charged with? — With being in the room where this illegal oath was found, but there was great difficulty with refer¬ ence to the way in which the case should be pro¬ ceeded with ; there was very little evidence beyond the finding of the oath upon the table. 209. But there was no doubt about that ? — There was no doubt about that. 210 . There was no doubt that he was in the room, and that the paper was illegal ?—There is no doubt that he was in the room, and that this illegal paper was found upon the table. 211 . It was considered that no conviction could be obtained ?—It was considered that there was not sufficient to sustain a case. 212 . You spoke with some doubt as to whether this was a Ribbon meeting?—I think there is very great doubt whether that Avas a Ribbon meeting ; I would rather think it was a Fenian Ribbon meeting, if I may so call it; I think that the Fenians in Mullingar and in Westmeath, generally, when they first came there, associated more with the Ribbonmen; they found it a ready field to work upon, an organisation already to their hand, and I think a number of Ribbon- men about the neighbourhood became Fenians as well; I think this meeting Avas a mixture of the two ; it is not certainly the usual Ribbon oath, as I am informed. 213. Is this the only case Avhich you have knoAvn of a Ribbon meeting, or a possible Ribbon meeting, being surprised ?—This is the only case I knoAV of its having been surprised. 214. Then your information upon the subject ofRibbonism comes chiefly from informers? — B Chiefly Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871. 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871. Chiefly from informers, and from a case that was tried in Longford a good many years ago, about nine or 10 years ago, in which a parish master was concerned, and papers were found with him. 215. You have heard sufficient from informers since to make you think that the nature of the societies is much the same?—Quite the same, except this, that I think now there is not the same regard to the trials that take place ; I think at first the Ribbonmen used to hold more or less an investigation as to the conduct of the person who was to be either shot or beaten, and now I think that it has degenerated more or less into a description of crime by means of which they wish to rid themselves of persons who may be objec¬ tionable to them ; and the lower order of Ribbon- ism takes more power than they used to do, in former days. 216. What do you believe to be the organi¬ sation of the society?—I think the organisation of the society was, first, for protection for their land and farms ; that was the original object, I think. 217. But what is the organisation of it, apart from its objects ?—I think that the organisation, as well as 1 could learn from them, my informants, is, that the principal parties do not reside in Ire¬ land ; I think they reside more in Scotland and England; each county sends one or two dele¬ gates, according to the size of the county. - 218. Where do they send them to?—Some¬ times to various places in England, sometimes to Glasgow, and sometimes to Manchester. 219. For what purpose?—To the general meetings to be held by the delegates. The pass words come certainly from England, and are changed every quarter. 220 . The delegates are the chief power ?—The delegates in the county are the chief power. There are in several districts parish masters, and then there are body masters, who are the masters of a smaller body. 221 . Wbo appoints those officers?—Those officers are appointed by the delegates. 222 . What are the body masters ?■—The body masters may number two or three in a small towmland, or round a village such as Rochfort Bridge, Tyrrell’s Pass, Castle Pollard, or in such parishes as those. 223. The delegates, you say, attend the meet¬ ings?— They are obliged to attend the meetings under the penalty of a fine, which they are bound to pay. There are fines, and they are fined if they do not attend the parish meeting. 224. TV here do they meet ?—They may meet in a field, and they often meet at a fair, or they may meet at the common market. They frequent the same public-houses. 225. You could not speak with any great degree of certainty with reference to this organi¬ sation ?—No, I could not speak with certainty. I could only speak from the most careful inquiry I could make, but I cannot vouch for the truth ; indeed I can vouch for very little truth in what they tell me at all. 226. What is the lowest order of the society ; the degree below the body masters?—The body master is the low'est order of officer of the society that I know of. They are generally at the fairs. If a man is to be beaten you will see them lead¬ ing 15 or 20 men to beat him. 227. But they are not of tlx* lowest rank of all ? —The rank and file are the labourers, serving boys, and so on ; they are the party men. 228. Are they in possession of the secrets of the society, or only a small portion of them ?—I do not think they are in possession of some of the principal secrets of the society, but they certainly take the oath. 229. And they know the pass word?—They must know the pass word and the sign. 230. Are they bound to execute the orders of their officers ?—They are bound under the severest penalties to execute the orders of their superiors, and beyond anything, not to prosecute. To prosecute, or to give information, is visited with the severest penalties. 231. Have you any means of knowing whether there is a large number belonging to that society in Westmeath?—I think it is very extensive indeed amongst the lower orders, the servant boys, and herds, and care takers. 232. Should you say that it was general or exceptional ?—1 should not say that the great body of the people belonged to it; it is excep¬ tional in that respect; but perhaps a fourth part of the younger male population may belong to it; but its operations create such terror as completely paralyses the community. 233. Do you believe that it has spread over the whole of Westmeath, or only over certain districts?-—I think over the whole of West¬ meath ; but there are some districts that are worse than others, and considerably worse than others. With reference to the oath which your Lordship asked about, there is one thing I forgot to mention, that in the document found with the from their body before they will give evidence against or prosecute a brother. 234. And that you believe still to form part of the oath?—That is only part of the oath. 235. Do you really suppose that this society extends far beyond the county of Westmeath?— I have no certainty of knowing that, as my inquiry only relates to Westmeath. I think it certainly extends to the borders of the counties adjoining; certainly to the borders of Meath and King’s and Longford coimties. 236. You were in Mayo and Galway before you came to Westmeath, were you not?—I was. 237. Did you see any traces of Ribbonism there ?—I never saw any traces of any secret conspiracy in either Mayo or Galway. 238. Have you reason to think that it did not exist there ?—1 think I should have known it if it had; I never saw any signs of it. 239. You found a completely different state of things in Westmeath?—I found a completely different state of things there, with this excep¬ tion, that there is a general dislike in the Irish character to prosecute a man of any description ; it is easier to get prosecution in Mayo and Gal¬ way for assaults than it is in Westmeath, but there is general sympathy for any person in mis¬ fortune. 240. Where are you stationed now ? — In Louth. I have been there since October. 241. Have you seen any traces of Ribbonism there ?—No, 1 have seen no traces of the work¬ ing of it there. 242. Are there any outrages of the same de¬ scription in Louth ?—Not one ; there was one threatening letter in six months, but that was a case 11 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). case which I do not believe is of the slightest im¬ portance at all. 243. I believe Louth was once very much in¬ fected, was it not ?—So I understand. 244. Have you been able to ascertain at all to what its decrease is to be attributed ?—I under¬ stand that there are Ribbonmen in Louth, and I understand that there are .Fenians in Louth, but strange to say I am also informed that they are both at deadly feud ; that they hate each other. 245. I believe while you were in Westmeath you from time to time made recommendations to the Government upon the state of crime which you found in the county ?—I did. 246. Will you state to the Committee gene¬ rally what advice you have given?—At first, when crime became serious, I thought that by placing extra police upon the townlands and charging them to the people, that would induce all well disposed people to come forward openly and combine to put down the system. 247. Mr. Maguire. ] When Avas that advice given ?—I cannot exactly say, as I have written a volume of reports upcn the crimes I had to report upon. I think it was about 1865 or 1866. 248. Chairman.'] You recommended a police tax?-—Yes; more particularly after Mr. Gavan’s outrage. 249. Was there always the power of levying this police tax?—Yes, that always existed under the “ Crime and Outrage Act” since 1847, but there Avas ahvays a very great difficulty in col¬ lecting the tax on account of the innumerable forms that had to be gone through with the per¬ sons who refused to pay. There Avere a great many notices to be served, and technicalities of that sort; the cattle had to be seized and driven sometimes a long distance to the nearest pound, and then to be placed there, and then a certain time Avas to be alloAved to elapse before they were sold. 250. Did parties frequently refuse to pay ?— There Avas only one case in which there Avas a point-blank refusal that I am aAvare of, and that was at a place towards Tyrrell’s Pass, in the southern part of my district. There a person refused, and he defied the Government for, I think, 18 months. Eventually his cattle Avere seized. 251. AtAvhat time Avas this ?—This Avas before the passing of the Peace Preservation Act of 1870, it was in May 1869 ; it was found that there Avas no auctioneer Avho would sell the stock, and no person would bid for them. 252. You mentioned that there was frequently difficulty in levying the tax ?—There Avere great difficulties in levying it in that instance. 253. Is it levied now with greater ease ?—It is levied now with greater ease, but the people pay after a great deal of grumbling. 254. What is your opinion of the Avorking of this tax ?—I am sorry to say that it has totally failed to do any good in my opinion. 255. In what way has it failed ?—It has failed in producing evidence, and it has failed in stop¬ ping crime. The only good Avhich I know it does is this, that it enables you to have a larger body of police at your command for patrolling purposes and police duties. 256. It acts as a punishment on a certain dis¬ trict, does it not ?—Certainly it acts as a punish¬ ment. Many of the inhabitants have to pay 0.50. very heaA’ily. I think each extra policeman costs 35 /. 10 5 . a year. 257. But it is a punishment which falls as severely, or perhaps more severely, upon those Avho are innocent than upon those Avho are guilty?—It does not touch the guilty at all, because they are not able to pay; they are generally servant boys. Generally or almost invariably the criminal is a person brought from a neighbouring county. 258. Did you not speak of some of the persons belonging to this society as being small farmers, and one or two as large ones ?—Yes, I did. 259. The punishment falls upon them does it not?—Yes; but then they are A r ery feAV. 260. Do you think that it has any bad effects? —I am informed that it has. 261. Of what kind?—I am informed that the well-disposed are A T ery discontented at having to pay this tax, and they see no good effect come of it. I know that in Mullingar myself I had to recommend that a number of the poorer house¬ holders should be remitted the tax, as they really had nothing but straw to lie upon, and a roof over their heads, although they Avere house¬ holders ; I made a schedule of some 20 or 30 names, and the Government remitted the tax in their cases. 262. But that police force had been sent there in consequence of the murder of Mr. Anketell, had it not ?—It had. 263. Do you belieA T e that none of these per¬ sons from whom you Avere obliged to remit the tax would have been able to have given evidence with respect to that occurrence ?—I think it is very possible that a number of people in Mul¬ lingar could have given evidence, but I am satisfied that if 1,000 police Avere quartered upon them for a year they would not give any evidence. 264. Why is that?—Because as certainly as they gave evidence, so certainly Avould they meet punishment either by being shot or beaten, or by having their houses burnt. 265. Then they are in greater fear of the ven¬ geance of the Ribbonmen than of any pecuniary loss ?—I am satisfied of it. 266. The grand jury have the power to pre¬ vent compensation, have they not, in cases of murder?—Under the neAV Act they have. 267. Have you seen anything of the Avorking of that provision?—ISTo; that has all occurred since I left the county. 268. You stated that in the early times Avhen you Avere in Westmeath you recommended this police tax ?-—I did. 269. You have since come to the conclusion that it is of little or no use ?—I have seen it acted upon in five or six cases, and I have not seen any good effect beyond the fact of its giving great facility of patrolling Avhich the extra num¬ ber of men no doubt afforded, and that may have stopped crime or deterred crime, but it has never detected any. 270. When you came to this conclusion, what did you then recommend?—After that I had nothing to recommend but the most active exer¬ tions of the police, but latterly in 1869, I did recommend that in cases where one had to deal with a secret society nothing but the very severest measures Avould be available for any good, and I stated then, that as during the Fenian times, the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act had suppressed, I may say entirely B 2 in Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871 . 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. qo March 1871 . in the district, secret combinations, I thought that if it was applied in a limited sense to certain districts, that was the only thing in my opinion that could regenerate society in that district. 271. You have observed that during the period of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act the operations of the secret society had ceased ?—I observed that crime of that kind had almost entirely disappeared, with the exception of towards the latter end of that period, when the people became aware that it only applied to political cases, and then I think they were not so much afraid of it. In the whole county there were not more than some 16 or 17 arrests made, and the prisoners were subsequently discharged by the Government, some after one month’s im¬ prisonment, some after two months, some after three months, and some after four months, ac¬ cording as I thought it right to recommend to the Government the exercise of clemency, and upon their entering into solvent recognisances for good behaviour they were discharged. 272. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.~\ That, how¬ ever, was never applied to agrarian crime? — No. 273. Nor could it have been?—No. 274. Chairman.^ But the people were not aware of that feature of the case until some time after the suspension?—No; and in the case of the Peace Preservation Act, I am satisfied that the people did not know the nature of the Act for some time afterwards ; they thought it was very much more stringent in its provisions; they thought that it was almost a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; they are not aware at the present moment even, that under the provision of the Peace Preservation Act of 1870, as I read it, in my humble judgment, if a man is arrested after sunset for being out, he need only lodge a notice of appeal and all your summary powers are taken away from you, as the procedure is under the 14 & 15 Viet., which gives an appeal to everything over a month’s imprison¬ ment. 275. Since the passing of the Peace Preserva¬ tion Act, you have again recommended the same measure of suspension, have you not?—I re¬ commended it in April 1869; I may have done so since, but I cannot speak to that with certainty. 276. I do not ask so much whether you recommended it formerly, as whether you do recommend it now ?—I am at a loss to know any other remedy ; I cannot speak with reference to any other. 277. Do you believe that such a measure as that could be effectually applied to the suppres¬ sion of this Ribbon Society?—I am satisfied that it could. 278. Do you believe that you, as a magistrate, and the police are acquainted with the leaders of this society ?—I believe the police are morally convinced that they are acquainted with them, but, of course, no man, unles3 he is a Ribbon- man, can positively swear to another being a Ribbonman but from his acts, from his conduct, from his opinions, from the houses he frequents, from the interest that he takes in certain things, aided by the information that he himself receives privately, he can form a very fair idea of who the leaders of the party are. 279. Have the police more than a general knowledge that such and such parties are leaders of the society, or would they know who are parish masters and who are body masters?—I do not know whether the police are acquainted with their particular rank, but I do know that they are acquainted with the leaders and men of influence in the brotherhood. 280. I understand that you would only re¬ commend the partial suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act ?— Certainly. 281. Locally?—Locally decidedly. 282. Do you consider that such a measure would be applicable to districts where ordinary agrarian crime exists ?—I think it should be only applied to where agrarian crime is the rule, and in the very worst parts of the country. 283. I understood you to say that you would apply it where you had sufficient reason to be¬ lieve that a secret society existed ?—Certainly, and I think besides that it would be received with a very great deal of pleasure by all the well dis¬ posed. 284. Do you believe that there are any well disposed people in the district?—I am certain of it. 285. Do you refer only to the well-to-do classes, or to any portion of the inhabitants ?—I refer to any parties who have anything to lose, and who wish to have some liberty. What led me to form that opinion is this. Some 23 parties were sum¬ moned before me for the police tax, and made no defence. They only asked for time to memorial¬ ise the Government, which I gave them ; I put a stay upon the execution of the warrant for a month. The usual audience, a Ribbon audience, were in court at the time listening to the "whole of the proceedings; and after I had left the court and was riding away home, I met some most res¬ pectable farmers, who spoke to me on the nature of these proceedings which had taken place. I asked them what was the reason that these men made no defence; why did they submit to costs besides the extra taxes they had to pay (some of them being summoned only for 5 s., and having 3 5. costs to pay), and they told me that those parties had been visited by the Ribbonmen, and informed that they should not pay the tax, but should resist the tax to the last, and that was the reason why they all made no defence. The farmers said, “ Why does not Government ai'rest so and so, who is doing all the mischief in the country?” And I said, “ You are not aware that I have not got the power to arrest.” They said, “ You must be aware that he is notorious.” 286. Sir G. GreyC\ They would not give evi¬ dence against him, I suppose?—No, not one of them, by any means. 287. Chairman .] You have no opinion that any increase of police, or any additional power given to the magistrates, would answer the same purpose ?— I should be very sorry to say that there are no other measures which would be available, but I do not know them, and I cannot think of them. 288. Could you suggest any way in which the 23rd section could be strengthened, so as to become a more useful section ?—I should suggest leaving out the words “ under suspicious circum¬ stances,” and saying “ found out at night, and failing to satisfy the magistrate that he was upon his legitimate business.” I know many magi¬ strates ; in fact the majority, or the whole of them, read the words “ under suspicious circum¬ stances ” as meaning that there must be some suspicion attached to them besides being out at night. 289. Some SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 13 289. Some suspicion that they are out on some illegal errand ?—Some suspicion that they are out upon some illegal or illegitimate errand. 290. Mr. Disraeli.~\ I inferred from what you said that you had been resident magistrate in Westmeath for eight vears?- I have. 291. Were you in the habit of making reports to the Government during that period ?—Yes. 292. You mentioned one or two reports which you had made ; you. made a report about the meeting at Mullingar, when you sent up that oath which was found there ?— Yes, I did. 293. You are in the habit of making reports, are you not?—Yes, after every outrage which takes place in my district I report the circum¬ stances. 294. And besides making specific reports upon each outrage, do you make periodical reports, say every half year, taking a general view of the circumstances of the district?—No, I am in no way bound to do so, except that I consider it my duty to make any suggestion I can to the Go¬ vernment for the public good. 295. But are you in the habit of giving your views in a summary with reference to the state of the county, if it happens to be particularly disturbed? — No, I am not in the habit of doing so ; I have done so once or twice. 296. With respect to acts of violence, that is, murder, attempts to murder, nocturnal visits, and threatening letters, what do you do?— Every one of those I report. 297. Have they increased during the last two years in the county of Westmeath, for example ? —I think they have increased certainly since I went there, which was in 1863. I think during the years 1865 and 1866, while the Fenian con¬ spiracy was at its height, they did not increase ; on the contrary, there was a visible decrease; subsequently to that they increased again till I left the county. 298. Have you made any general report with reference to the state of the county for those last two years during which those cases of violence had increased?—Yes; I made a report two years ago certainly, and also when the increase of crime began again. 299. But not more recently ?—Yes, I have made reports subsequently. 300. Chciirman.~\ When did you make any ?— In answer to Government inquiries, I made one in the autumn of 1870. 301. Mr. Disraeli.~\ In which you pointed out probably what, in your opinion, were the causes of that increase of crime ?—Yes, I think I pointed out some individuals in it, and as well as I remember, I suggested another course to be pursued. I suggested the system that I stated, which was something short of what I previously recommended; that was the only thing that oc¬ curred to me ; I suggested the system of watch¬ ing, but I distinctly said that I suggested that failing the other remedy wdiich I had previously recommended, which I thought was a strong mea¬ sure, and one which I could not dare to hope would be applied. 302. That was in your report of 1870?—It was. 303. Did you mention in your report of 1870 your views with reference to the influence of Ribbonism at the present moment upon the county ?—I can only speak from memory, but I am pretty sure I did. 304. All those cases of violence, with the 0.50. detail of which you commenced your evidence, you of course reported to the Government?—All of them. 305. You are aware, of course, that even if they had not been so reported to the Government, those facts would have been known to the public generally, from having appeared in the news¬ papers ?—Yes. 306. They were all matters of notoriety?-- They were all matters of notoriety ; the Govern¬ ment received the reports of them through the constabulary, and also through me. 307. Have you made any reports to the Government as to your views with respect to the expediency of a partial and local suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act?—I have. 308. May I ask when you did so ?—I made it April 1869. 309. Did you refer to it again in your report of 1870?—I may have referred to it. 310. Chairman .] You said just now, failing what you had recommended before, that you recommend this system?—Yes, exactly ; I felt at the time that what I had recommended was such a very strong measure that I could hardly hope it would be adopted, but it was the only one that I could see would be any effective remedy. If adopted, I believed that it would be effectual. 311. Mr. Hardy. J You made, in addition to your written reports, frequent oral reports "when you were up at the Castle ?—I made reports to nobody unless the Lord Lieutenant may have sent for me. 312. Exactly; but you made those reports by word of mouth, did you not ?—I did not make any reports in that way ; I had conversations, no doubt. 313. I presume you then reiterated the advice which you had given in writing ?—I never went back upon anything I had said. 314. I presume the mode in which you wmuld recommend the Habeas Corpus Act to be dealt with was a general suspension, with power to the authorities to apply it locally ?—Yes, reserving the power to the authorities to apply it locally. 315. Otherwise, any attempt to apply its pro¬ visions would simply drive the evil from one place to another?—No doubt that would be so. 316. I think you said that Ribbonism was local in general in Westmeath, and had no communion with other parts of the country?—I will not say that it has no communion with the borders of the neighbouring counties, but, as those were out of my district, I cannot speak confidently about that. 317. You spoke of people residing in Glasgow or in Manchester who controlled the society in Ireland ?—Certainly, that is my information. 318. Do you mean that they controlled it simply in the county of Westmeath, or gene- ally?—Generally; they control the system all hrough Ireland. 319. From information which you have re¬ ceived in that indirect way, which you have described, is it your opinion that Ribbonism is confined to Westmeath, and the two neighbour¬ ing counties?—I think active Ribbonism, cer¬ tainly is. 320. That is another matter, but has it been the history of Ribbonism to change its localities of action ?—I am perfectly aware that it was in Longford, and also in Meath, and also in King’s County. 321. But I am speaking of different periods of b 3 its Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871. 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. 20 March 1871, its history. Is it not the fact that Ribbonism has cropped up in different parts of the country at different times according to special circum¬ stances ?—Yes, I think that it has, certainly. 322. You were a long time in Mayo, were you not ?—I was in M ayo for four years and a-half. 323. And you left it so long ago that you are not acquainted, I presume, with what was taking place in Mayo just before the passing of the Peace Preservation Act ?—No, I am not aware of that. 324. But you are aware that Mayo was one of the counties to which the Peace Preservation Act was specially to be applied ?—I am aware of that. 325. So far as you know it may have been either Ribbonism or Fenianism in Mayo ?—Yes. 326. But were not the outrages which were taking place in Mayo at that time of an agrarian character ?—Yes, from what I read in the papers, and from what I understand, the circumstances are similar to those in Westmeath. 327. The armed visiting, and the noctural visiting, and the outrages connected with land ? —Yes. 328. Should you, from your knowledge of Rib- bonism, attribute that class of outrages to Ribbon- ism ?—I would attribute it to what I say, I think, occurred in Westmeath. I think the coming of the Fenian conspiracy into Mullingar, engrafted itself, as it were, upon Ribbonism, and, I think, of the two, Fenianism might have carried the other into Mayo, but I cannot say whether it is pure Ribbonism in Mayo or not. 329. I would ask you whether, looking to the result, Ribbonism had not got to Mayo as well as to this county ?—I should say it was something of the same nature certainly. 330. In your opinion are the Ribbonmen in Westmeath and the neighbourhood ready to take up with such a conspiracy as Fenianism, if they can take it up without danger to themselves, such as the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would involve ?—I do not quite understand your question. 331. Are their minds in such a state of feeling towards the Government of the country that they would adopt a conspiracy like Fenianism if brought among them ?—I do not think that they would adopt it unless it tended to their own interest; I think the farming classes of Westmeath are not at all disloyal, that they would not take up any line of action against the Government if they were once rid of this nightmare which is over them. 332. But you have spoken of Ribbonism as if not general in the county of Westmeath, at the same time as ruling the great mass of the people? •—Through fear it rules the great mass of the people. 333. And do you doubt that there is also a sympathy with the offenders ?—Yes, I think there is a sympathy on the part of the lower orders with the offenders; but not on the part of any¬ body who has anything to lose in the country, such as a farm or even land to any extent. 334. So far as relates to getting evidence, do you think it would be practicable to get any evi¬ dence of those crimes further than you get at it at present ?—I am satisfied that you will not get evidence. 335. Of course the information you get gives you a moral certainty as to the culprits ?—Cer¬ tainly. t/ 336. During the seven years that you have been in Westmeath, I suppose, in your own mind you could say generally who were the persons who had committed those crimes ?—I would not say who committed them, but I could perfectly tell who organised and who originated them. 337. Supposing the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended, as you proposed, in 1869, in your opinion could you have put your hand at that moment upon every one of those people who were at the head of this conspiracy in your dis¬ trict ?—In my opinion, the police and myself, I being a magistrate, could point out who were the parties who concocted and conspired to commit these crimes. 338. In your opinion, if you had so taken hold of their heads, would the great mass of the crime which has since taken place in Westmeath have been stopped ?—Certainly, I thought it would ; and it is my opinion now that if such a course had been proceeded with, it would have instantly checked crime, and it would do so now. 339. Y r ou say that it did so with Fenianism, which was also a secret society ?—Exactly. 340. The operation of the Act was that no man knew whether he would be taken into cus¬ tody or not ?—That was the consequence, and they left the country and absconded in every direction. 341. And the ignorance of the people who were connected with Ribbonism led even some of them to fly also, did it not?—Yes, they fled fear¬ ing to be taken, and even now I apprehend some have left the country. 342. Even while this Committee is sitting ?— Even while this Committee is sitting, in antici¬ pation of anything that may happen. 343. Have most of these cases which you have referred to, of actual outrage, been preceded by threatening letters ?—In most of the cases they had, or some warning had been given; but I under¬ stand that latterly they have not given warning. 344. With respect to Mr. Fetherston Haugh, who was killed, I understood you to say that the blow followed almost immediately after the non¬ payment of the rent which he required ?—The day but one afterwards. 345. In your opinion was that a murder con¬ certed after that non-payment of rent, or had it been arranged beforehand, and that the offering of the rent was a mere trial to see whether he would give way ?—I can only give my opinion. 346. What is the impression upon your mind? —My opinion of Mr. Fetherston Haugh’s case is this: that the going to tender him the rent was a mere trial, and that his doom was sealed from the moment he refused the old rent; it was pre¬ viously arranged that if he did not accept of that he would be shot, and I believe that the three men who drove in the car to the public-house were the three men who conspired to his murder, and that that murder was arranged in the last public-house they were at. 347. That is to say, the mode of the murder ? —Yes, the mode in which he should be murdered, and that the servant-boy of the house was the man who did it. 348. The people of the county knew perfectly Avell that Mr. Fetherston Haugh was a doomed man, did they not ?—Y'es; I believe the ostler of the hotel where his tax-cart put up, who lived in the house near to where he was shot, was actually aware that he was to be shot that very night on his way home. 349. I should 15 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS.) i 349. I should like to ask a question with refer¬ ence to what the people may do for themselves. Is there any means of getting anything like what is called in the United States a “ Vigilance Com¬ mittee,” to thwart the efforts of those people ?— I do not think so. I should say certainly not, unless it was done by three or four magistrates, or persons in the higher grades of society, but I do not believe that any of the middle class ever would do it. 350. But as you have mentioned the higher classes, I should like to ask you a question about something which appeared in Dr. Nulty’s Pas¬ toral Letter, which perhaps you may have seen, in which he states that some of the higher classes of landlords of the county are in league with the Ribbonmen; do you believe such a state of things to exist ?—Certainly not. 351. Let me call your attention to the pas¬ sage ; Dr. Nulty says this : “ It is matter of noto¬ riety that two of the most cruel and extensive exterminators in this diocese had been centres of Ribbonism in their respective districts while carrying their inhuman clearances through.” In your opinion, from the information which you have had while in Westmeath, is it true that landlords have been the worst centres of Rib¬ bonism ?—In my time in Westmeath I have known no exterminators, and in the next place, I am certainly not aware of the landlords having been in league with any form of Ribbonism. 352. Let me refer you to this passage, “ I have before me what I cannot but regard as solid ground for believing that the relations still sub¬ sisting between exterminating landlordism and Ribbonism are the very reverse of unfriendly ” ? —I do not understand it. 353. You have never come across such a thing in your experience?—Certainly not; I have never come across that. 354. You said that you knew some of the chief Ribbonmen by seeing them attend the different trials ?—Yes, I have seen the same people go session after session to the same place, without having any case to attend, or any apparent busi¬ ness there. 355. Do you find that the people who are brought up before you are generally defended by an attorney or counsel ?—There are attornies attending Mullingar now and then, but generally speaking, there are no attornies attending the petty sessions in Westmeath. 356. Have you had any experience of juries in those few cases that have been tried in West¬ meath ?—Certainly. 357. In your opinion, are those juries gene¬ rally such as would do justice in these agrarian outrages?—Some of them are excellent juries, and some of them are very bad juries, I should say. 358. I think you have told the Committee that there has not been a conviction for homicide or serious outrage during your time of seven years ? —No. 359. There have been a great many cases of homicide and serious outrage, some of which I presume have been before juries?—Some, but very few, have been before juries; the other cases have not been able to be brought to trial. 360. Then with respect to those, none of them led to conviction, at all events?—No, not one of them led to a conviction; there was only one conviction which was with respect to a threaten¬ ing letter. 0.50. 361. With regard to the police rate, I presume you think it fairer that it should fall upon the district which has been guilty of the crime, or of connivance at it, than upon the general public ? —Certainly I am of that opinion. 362. And that although it may not answer altogether, is it not more just that it should fall upon the district which practically connives at the crime than upon the rates of the county at large ?—That was my opinion; it was a very disagreeable duty to perform on this account; that many of the landlords objected to the tax, and when I had to fix the radius of taxation, all the interested parties were up in arms against me, asking me why I had included this or that townland, and I had to give in lengthened re¬ ports my reasons for doing so. 363. With reference to the class of arms used in those outrages, are not some of them arms of an expensive character ?—We had only an oppor¬ tunity of knowing that in one case, and that was where the police a year and a half ago stumbled upon a party who were returning from visiting a house, and in that case the arms were, some of them, of an expensive nature; there were two very good revolvers and a very good single-bar¬ relled short gun. 364. Have you suggested in your reports any steps for disarming the population?—No; I took steps myself when that measure was proclaimed to reduce the amount of arms allowed in the district by one-third ; but in such a case as that of a farmer holding 80 acres of land, I reported that he should have leave to hold arms if he required. 365. Did you suggest any plan for the better discovery of arms in the hands of persons who held them unlawfully ?—No. 366. Have you any means of procuring infor¬ mation by which you can tell whether persons are generally in possession of arms in spite of that proclamation?—-No, but I think that the Arms Act might be carried* out more strictly. When a man is caught with arms, I think that he might be visited with more severe punishment. 367. Mr. Brnen.~\ You say that you fixed your operations for granting licenses for arms accord¬ ing to the scale of holding ?—Certainly. 368. Is that the only thing which you have regard to, or do you have regard to character as well ?—The applicant must be recommended by the nearest magistrate and by the constabulary of the district as a fit and proper person to hold arms. 369. Looking to these recommendations, have the applications for licenses in your district been a large number or generally a small number ?— I think that in the whole of my district in West¬ meath there are about 1,100 licenses for arms. 370. The magistrates, I believe, have a right to carry arms ?—Yes, they have. 371. The number includes principally the farming class, does it not?—It includes the farm¬ ing class principally, but I am inundated often with applications from magistrates for other parties for arms which I have refused. I draw the number at 40 acres to include the small farmer who wishes for arms for the destruction of vermin; crows do a great deal of damage to his crops, and I give them leave to have a gun upon their own lands, and not to pass their own boundaries, always stipulating that their charac¬ ters must be unexceptionable. 372. What is the class of license which you b 4 issue Captain Cr Talbot. 20 March 1871. v Captain G Talbot. 20 March 1871. 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE issue to the men who have larger holdings?—To many of them I have issued licenses for pistols for the protection of their persons while going to fairs and markets, and driving through the country. 373. In the searches for arms which you have instituted, have you been successful in siezing many ?—No, I do not suppose the police have found more than a dozen old guns ; they are always old rusty things. 374. Have you reason to suppose that there is any large number of arms about?—Yes; I am satisfied that there are arms in the county, arms are never wanting to perpetrate an outrage, not¬ withstanding the utmost vigilance. 375. With regard to the Peace Preservation Act, section 23, I think you told the Committee that you had had six or seven cases brought before you under that section?—As well as I recollect, I have some six or seven Sessions to attend to all through the district, so that I cannot remember exactly. 376. Of coui'se those six or seven cases do not represent all the persons who have been out under the circumstances described in the section ? —I think that a great many may have been out, but the police were so satisfied that they were out only a short time after sunset, and that they were out for legitimate purposes, that they did not arrest them; but my view is that it is their duty to bring them before a magistrate. 377. Then do you consider that that section has been thoroughly successful in its working ? —I have already stated that the magistrates con¬ sider that suspicious circumstances must be proved; therefore, I think that it has been un¬ successful in that way ; but I think that it had a good deal of effect in the beginning when par¬ ties believed that they were liable to be taken up and imprisoned. 378. But you are of opinion that the want of success in the operation of that Act has been owing rather to its construction than to the way in which it has been carried into effect ?—Yes; I think that there is a good deal that is defective in its construction, but in answer to your question I should also say that if the act had never existed, if an outrage had to be performed the Ribbonmen are so numerous, and their police so effective, that they would carry their end, the movements of the regular police would be so known that no matter what amount of police you had the out¬ rage would take place. 379. But I gather from what you say that you are of opinion that the 23rd section has been fairly carried into effect?—Yes; the utmost vigilance upon the part of the police and the magistrates has been exercised to carry it out. 380. I think you told the Committee that you had never had occasion to have recourse to the 13th section, compelling witnesses to give evi¬ dence ?— No; I have never had occasion to use it. 381. Why did you not put it into effect if you knew that you could compel the evidence to be given ?—Because the parties could come forward and swear; my power would only arise if they refused to be sworn. 382. You have already stated that the extra police gives you greater facilities for controlling and for the detection of crime ?—Very much so ; when 1 applied to the Government for cars they at once acceded to my request, and I at once threw bodies of police into the district. 383. There seems, of course, to be no possi¬ bility of imposing the cost of that tax upon any other district than the district where the crime is committed ?—I think the district where a crime is committed, or the district which may have sheltered the perpetrator, or where the conspirators reside, is the proper place to bear the tax. 384. Mr. Doumintj .] I conclude from your evidence that a great number of the outrages to which you have referred, may be connected with land, and disputes about land ?—A good many, certainly; I should say the majority. 385. You were eight or nine years, 1 think, in Westmeath ?—I was close upon eight years in Westmeath ; I went there in January 1863, and left it last October. 386. Are you acquainted with the condition, in the county generally, of the farmers and the labouring population ?—Yes, I am acquainted with them. 387. I believe that the labouring population in the county are considered in a very wretched condition ?—There is a great deal of poverty in many parts. 388. Are you acquainted with the neighbour¬ ing county of Meath ?—No, I am not. 389. Are you aware that the labouring popu¬ lation of that fine county are also in a very wretched condition ?—I have heard so, cer¬ tainly. 390. Did you read the charge of Chief Justice Whiteside at the last assizes ?—I glanced over it; I did not particularly read it. 391. Do you recollect that he particularly made reference to the large number of poor people there were in that fine rich county ?—I think I do. 392. Has there not been a large amount of consolidation of farms in those counties I have referred to?—Yes, certainly, very large. 393. You were asked by an honourable Mem¬ ber of the Committee with regard to the Ribbon conspiracies; are you aware that a Committee of this House sat in 1852 upon the very same sub¬ ject with regard to other counties different and distinct from those counties which we are in¬ quiring into now?—Yes, I am aware that Mr. Fitzmaurice, one of my predecessors, was exa¬ mined before that Committee. 394. That was with regard to Armagh, Monaghan, and part of Louth ?—Yes. 395. Did you know Mr. Fitzmaurice?—No, I had not the pleasure of his acquaintance. 396. I need not ask you if you were ever in one of the Ribbon lodges ?—No, I was not. 397. Have you ever seen a copy of the Ribbon oath that you could trace to any authentic source? t—I have. 398. Have you got that?—Yes, I have got a copy of it. 399. That you have traced to an authentic source?—Yes, I have it in my possession at home. 400. Are you alluding to the document that you stated here was found in a public-house ?— No, not to that document, but I am alluding to the document upon which I formed the opinion I have expressed to day before the Committee. 401. \ ou have a form of oath in your posses¬ sion which you have not given any evidence to the Committee ?—I was not asked about it. 402. Is that in writing?—It is. 403. Can you produce that to the Committee? —It 17 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). —It is not here, it is at Louth. I was on leave of absence at Westmeath for the purpose of moving my things down to Louth, and I was telegraphed to come to London, so I did not re¬ turn to bring those papers with me. 404. Could you inform the Committee how it came into your possession, so as to enable them to form an opinion about the authentic source from which you say it was derived ?—It was given to me by a police officer. 405. Did he tell you where he got it ?—Yes, he told me where he got it from. It was at the trial of a notorious parish master, which occurred in the county of Longford some years ago. 406. Was that the case which was tried nine years ago ?—Yes. 407. You have had nothing since that ?—No ; nothing in writing, but a great deal of viva voce information. 408. I think I understood that, in your opinion, these murders were generally committed by strangers ?—Yes. 409. In fact a murder committed in West¬ meath is probably committed by an assassin from the King’s County, or from some other neighbour¬ ing county ?—He may have come from any one of the three neighbouring counties. 410. It is your opinion the assassin generally does come from a neighbouring county?—Yes. 411. Then how do you reconcile that answer with your previous statement that you believe the people in the neighbourhood could all give information Avith regard to the person Avho com¬ mits a murder; you say that it was notorious in the neighbourhood that the people could give evidence Avith reference to the party Avho com¬ mitted the offence ?—Yes, certainly. 412. How could they do so if the criminal were a stranger ?— I Avish it to be understood that it Avas notorious, because the parties Avho brought him there Avere Ribbonmen, and being known to them he Avas knoAvn to most Ribbon- men in the neighbourhood; they generally con¬ ducted him to the scene, or near to the scene; but as to the actual murderer, I do not mean to say that he Avas actually notorious to the Avhole population in most cases ; in some cases he Avas. 413. Then, taking the case of persons Avorking in the fields, and seeing a stranger running aAvay after committing a crime of that sort, it is not surprising that they could not identify the party ? —In many of the murder cases it is perfectly notorious. I wish to explain that I gave that answer from information Avhicli I have re¬ ceived from time to time. In the case where Mr. Hornidge Avas fired at, in which a woman refused to identify the parties to Avhom she gave. a drink of water, we had reason to believe that the parties were Avell knoAvn to her, and that the party who Avas believed to have fired at Mr. Hornidge was no stranger, but a man Avho came from King’s County, Avhere he resided, leading about a travelling stallion, and he was Avell known in the district. In the case of Mr. Anketell’s murder, that Avas done by tAvo parties from Mul¬ lingar, and they Avere well knoAvn in the district. The parties concerned in the murder of Connor Avere also parties Avell knoAvn in the neighbour¬ hood. 414. You stated that this system of imposing a tax upon a particular district has failed ?—1 think it has failed. 415. You stated, I believe, that it did not touch the guilty?—No, it does not touch the 0.50. guilty to any particular extent, as the guilty are men of nothing, Avhereas those Avho have to pay are men of property and large farmers. 416. Then it is not unreasonable that those persons should complain of the tax being imposed upon them ?—It is very natural. 417. Then do you not think that it is very natural that it should have a contrary effect to that Avhicli has been expected?—That I have stated, and therefore I altered my opinion about it. 418. You also stated, that you thought that since the passing of the Peace Preservation Act things had improved up to the time you left Westmeath?—I stated that they had improved, but I qualified that by saying, that my experience of it ran from the month of May to the month of October. My experience was, that up to October crime generally decreases in West¬ meath. 419. And that goes on every year ?—That Avent on every year that I Avas there; the Avinter time is generally the time for settling the lands; the grazing lands begin to be let for the rest of the year before March, and that brings out a crop of threatening letters, and then they cease Avhen the lands have been settled. 420. Are you aAvare that grave outrages have occurred from the fact of con-acre having been prevented; that that has led to a great deal of crime, not only in VYestineath, but in other counties?—Yes, I am aAvare that the fact of people not getting the con-acre and grazing for their cattle, did lead to a great many outrages. 421. Do you not think that there may have been at the root of the crimes committed by the society such cases as persons having been re¬ fused a piece of land for a crop of potatoes ?— No, I do not think it has, as I have not knoAvn of any instances of people being refused land in Westmeath. I think the origin of the crime has been with those Avho have nothing except the shadoAV of a claim, 20 years old, to certain land, and Avho want a pretext to get hold of what their families had held 20 years ago. 422. Do I understand you to say that the per¬ sons connected Avith this society were, in your opinion, labourers and farmers’ sons ? — Small farmers, farmers’ sons, and labourers. There are some few men of larger holdings belonging to it, they are generally the leaders of it. 423. I think that you have told the Committee that you Avere not aware of any evictions having taken place in Westmeath?—‘-Exterminators” Avas what I was asked about. I am not aware of there being any such. 424. You have known of no evictions ?—It Avould be too much to say that I cannot recollect in eight years any evictions in Westmeath. I have knoAvn some for non-payment of rent. I have known rents raised. ] knoAV that Mr. Featherston Haugh had raised his rents tAvice. I should not like to say, but I have heard that he raised his rents three times within a short period; certainly tAvice. 425. Was the raising of rents general in Westmeath?—I have known some rents raised, but I could not say that it was a general thing at all. 426. With regard to crime generally, are you aware that there is much less crime now than there was in former years ?—I cannot speak of anything connected Avith Westmeath since Octo¬ ber last, C 427. Then Captain Gr Talbot. 20 March 1871. 18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain O. Talbot. 20 March 1871 . 427. Then with regard to the recommenda¬ tions which you have made to the Government, you made those before the Peace Preservation Act was passed ?—I made some before and some afterwards. I stated that I made one afterwards when I was questioned about that. 428. You are well acquainted with the terms of this Act, I presume ?—I am pretty well acquainted with the section of it which applies particularly to my work. I do not know much about the newspaper part of it. 429. You are perfectly well aware that under this Act all arms in a district proclaimed must be delivered up?—Yes, I am aware of that, when first the county is proclaimed or specially pro¬ claimed. 430. Under the 25th section of it, if any stranger appears in the parish you are bound to arrest him ?—Yes, the police are. 431. And to have him brought before you ?— Yes. 432. And if he does not give an account of himself satisfactory to you, you may commit him to gaol?—Yes, having previously taken down his evidence and transmitted it to the Lord Lieutenant. 433. In the 23rd section you stated that you would wish to leave out the words “ under sus¬ picious circumstances”?—Yes. 434. If you omitted those words, would you not have a larger power under that section of the Act of Parliament than the Lord Lieutenant would have under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act itself?—No. 435. You arrest a party without any suspicious circumstances and he is brought before you, and may you not commit him for six months ?—I suppose it would approximate to the power of the Lord Lieutenant; it would not be as great, because if the Act was suspended the Lord Lieutenant could direct the arrest of a party by day or night, in his house or at large, during its suspension. 436. Why not; in order to arrest a party under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, must not you first send the name of that party to the Castle, and must not the Lord Lieutenant then issue his warrant to arrest that party ?—I think it would be the duty of the police to arrest him and bring him before me, but not my duty as a magistrate. 437. But you could not commit him without that warrant of the Lord Lieutenant ?—Certainly not. The Lord Lieutenant’s warrant commits him to gaol under the suspension of the Act. 438. If you then were to arrest a party in any proclaimed district, and leave out the words, “ under suspicious circumstances,” you could arrest any party upon the high road after sunset, no matter what his character might be ?—The Lord Lieutenant has the power to arrest him anywhere, either in his house or at any time during the 24 hours, and the Lord Lieutenant would have the power to commit him for a much longer period than six months. There is almost the same power given under the recent criminal statute; if a person is lurking in the street, appa¬ rently with intention to commit a felony, he is liable to imprisonment; he may be immediately brought before a magistrate, and if he does not satisfy him that he was upon his lawful business he may be held in custody. SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 19 Wednesday, 22nd March 1871 . MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Bruen. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Downing. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Bussell Gurney. Mr. Hardy. The Marquis of Hartington. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. Colonel Wilson Patten. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Plunket. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. The Solicitor General for Ireland. The Marquis of HARTINGTON, in the Chair. Captain George Talbot, called in ; and further Examined. 439. Mr. Downing. ] I wish to call your attention to the last answer you gave; you said, that t( there is almost the same power under the recent criminal statute, if a person is lurking in the street, apparently with intention to commit a felony, he is liable to imprisonment;” I want to know if you referred there to the Habitual Criminals Act, which was passed in 1869 ?— Yes; I referred to the fact that he is liable to arrest under that Act. 440. Are you aware that that Act only refers to a certain class of criminals who have been previously convicted ?—Yes. 441. Convicted of crimes under the two sec¬ tions of that statute ?—Yes. 442. Viscount Sandond\ I wish to clear up a point, regarding the feeling of the people of Westmeath, respecting the Ribbon conspiracies; is it your impression that the great majority of the people are very unwillingly subjected to the terrorism of the Ribbon authorities ?— Decidedly. 443. Of all classes of the community?—I think of all the respectable classes of the com¬ munity. I think the Ribbonmen have a great many sympathisers, but the great majority of the people submit to it with regret. 444. Not only of what you would call the respectable class, but what you might call the superior workmen, and so on ?—I would not say the workmen, but I would include the farmers. 445. Would you say labourers?- I would not say labourers, but I would say farmers with small holdings of land; men holding about 25 or 30 acres of land. 446. If the system of terrorism which is ordinarily carried on from outside was removed, would it be felt as a great relief, not only by the wealthy class, but by the quiet classes of all kinds ?—Yes. 447. And even in Westmeath the quiet people form a very large majority ?—I think so, certainly ; the great majority would be very glad of anything that would remove the terrorism of the Ribbon system. 0.50. 448. Mr. Russell Gurney. ] With regard to juries, you said that there were some good juries and some bad juries?—Yes. 449. Do you think that there is a reasonable prospect, in the present state of Westmeath, with the sympathy existing on the part of one class, and the terrorism over the other, of getting a good jury of 12 men?—No, certainly not; but will you allow me to explain, that the panel is not a very large one ; ours is a small county, and when the challenges are exhausted, the best part of the panel has been exhausted, and then you can only get a jury upon which there is nearly a certainty of there being one or two sympathisers with the prisoner, consequently the jury generally disagree. 450. What is the qualification for jurors ?—I cannot say what is the qualification, but I know that some men of a very low class indeed are upon it. I have nothing to say with regard to the panel. 451. Have there been any cases in which the venues have been changed?—Not that I recollect. 452. There have been one or two cases in which there have been trials, have there not?— Yes. 453. But there has been no attempts to change the venue ?—There has been one case in which there has been a trial; that of Frele, 454. In that case there was no attempt to change the venue?—There was none upon that occasion. 455. You spoke of there being great poverty, both in Meath and Westmeath?—That is the case. 456. Are there frequent cases of offences against property, independently of those of an agrarian nature; cases of larceny, for instance ? —No, they are very rare; they are quite the ex¬ ception. 457. Are the persons whom you believe to have been the offenders, of the class that are in distress at all ; in the agrarian cases, have you reason to believe that any of them are driven to crime by poverty ?—Certainly not. C 2 Captain G. Talbot. 2 2 March 1871. 458. You Captain G. Talbot. 12 March 1871, 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 458. You mentioned the case of an oath which had been discovered recently; you said that you sent that to Dublin ?—I did. 459. Have you a copy of it?—No, I sent it up by a constable. 460. Mr. Plunket.~\ Do you believe that the oath to which reference has now been made is the oath at present in use in the society ?—I can¬ not undertake to say that. 461. You cannot form an opinion upon that? —I would not believe that it is the oath now taken by Ribbonmen. 462. You say there was one trial; what was that trial for ?—It was what is called a White- boy offence. 463. Was there a conviction in that case?— There was no conviction in that case ; the jury acquitted the prisoner. 464. You said also that generally there were probably two or three sympathisers to be found upon a jury of 12 men in Westmeath?—I did. 465. Amongst those sympathisers do you in¬ clude those who would be affected by terror as well as by sympathy ?—Yes, I do; there may be one or two affected by terror, and one or two affected by sympathy. 466. You stated on Monday that in your opinion if you could have taken hold of the heads of the conspiracy by means of the suspen¬ sion of the Habeas Corpus Act, the great mass of crime of that class which has taken place in Westmeath would have been stopped. Besides this effect, would it not afford increased facilities for obtaining evidence in cases where crime was still committed?—Certainly. 467. In that way such provisions as those contained in the 13th section of this Act if it were still in force could be more easily worked ? —Yes. 468. Mr. Gregory. ] I did not quite gather from you whether in your opinion those outrages were purely agrarian, or whether this secret tri¬ bunal took cognisance of affairs that occurred in the transactions of daily life ?—I think it does take cognisance of every action in daily life, such as the turning away of domestic servants, or a herd whom you may have taken on. 469. I think you are aware that in Westmeath (I am not quite sure whether it is in your district or not) the mere fact of a railway guard having been turned away was the cause of a serious outrage?—Yes, I am aware of that. 470. Do you believe that that was in any way connected with the Ribbon conspiracy?—I feel confident that it was. 471. You stated that the heads of this con¬ spiracy were pretty well known to the police : in fact that there was a moral certainty as to who many of them were?—Undoubtedly. 472. And I think you also stated that in many cases the persons who actually committed the offences were persons in the class of agricultural labourers?—When I say agricultural labourers, they might be labourers or railway servants, or men in that class of life. 473. Are you aware that last year a report was laid before the House of Commons with reference to the state of the labourers in the county of Meath, and that great discontent pre¬ vailed amongst the labouring classes in that county ; that they were huddled together in the most wretched habitations, and were consequently in a groat state of discontent and were evilly dis- TAKEN BEFORE TTIE posed ?—I remember hearing something to that effect. 474. Are you acquainted with the condition of the county of Meath ?—I am not competent to speak as to the condition of Meath. 475. As a fact, as a general rule the labourers in Westmeath are in a very unsatisfactory con¬ dition as regards their habitations and means of existence, are they not ?—Their habitations are extremely poor; their wages are smaller a good deal than that of the labourers in the county I now live in, and they are generally very poor. 476. Can you state at all about what the ordi¬ nary weekly wages of an agricultural labourer are?—I know that the wages about Westmeath throughout the year, without diet, are from 10 d. to 1 s. a day ; 1 s. is the outside ; that is for perma¬ nent workmen throughout the year, not for ex¬ ceptional men who are taken in for a job. It may be said to be 5 s. a week. In Louth I am paying some farm labourers 7 5 . 6 d. a week, that is something more than is usual in Westmeath. 477. Do you think that if the condition of the labourers were improved, if they had better houses and a plot of land, they would be more likely to keep aloof from these outrages?—I think their having that would ameliorate the state of the labourer, and would tend to raise him above the level of crime, or sympathy with it. 478. Then you think remedial measures, as well as repressive measures, are necessary in order to improve the state of society in West¬ meath ?—I think they would be very effective ; but I do not wish to be understood to say that remedial measures alone will ever eradicate Ribbonism. 479. The impression now prevails in West¬ meath, does it not, that the law is perfectly powerless and unable to reach those offenders ? —Certainly, that is the boast of Ribbonmen: notorious Ribbonmen have boasted to that effect. 480. Do you think that if the notorious per¬ petrators of these offences were shut up there would be a chance of evidence being obtained, that is to say, when the peasantry saw that the law was more powerful than these lawless com¬ binations?—I can only express my opinion. I believe that if the leaders of this conspiracy were shut up you would easily get information, and that before they had been shut up for even a short period they would give evidence themselves. 481. You are of opinion that if they were shut up and kept separate, there would be a likeli¬ hood of persons giving important evidence ?— Yes, I am certain they would fight amongst themselves. 482. If important evidence were forthcoming, do you think the juries would be afraid to con¬ vict ?—I think it would be a very bold jury in Westmeath that would convict at present. 483. Do you think that the resort to the 29th section of the Act, which empowers a change of venue to be resorted to, would be effectual ?—I think it might be effectual; it would certainly tend to obtaining a conviction if the man was guilty; but in answer to your last question, in which you ask whether the leaders of the Ribbon society should be shut up, I would wish to say that I do not think that it would be at all neces¬ sary even to confine them for any lengthened period. I think a very short period would be necessary, and that might be either on bail or to allow them to leave the country. J 484. You 21 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 484. You think it would be efficacious to put them on bail ?—I think it would eventually if they once saw that it was decided that effectual steps would be taken against them. 485. But if they were out on bail, do you think that evidence would be forthcoming; would they not take the same course as before of intimi¬ dation ?—I do not mean to say the actual chiefs of it, but some of those who were not in the first rank might be let out on bail, as they would have a terror of being taken up again. 486. Have you heard it suggested that cases might be tried by two judges without a jury ?— I have not heard of that. 487. Would you consider that the employment of a special jury would be efficacious ?—Not in Westmeath; I think it would be a very unfair position to place the jury in. 488. You think it would expose the jury, even a special jury, people in a high position, to great terror ?—Certainly I do. 489. In pursuance of the question put to you by the noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, is it true that you have often heard, and that you believe, that there are many persons ac¬ tually members of the Ribbon conspiracy, who are drawn into it by a feeling of terror, merely for their own security, and who would be only too delighted if this reign of terror had passed away ?—Certainly I do. For instance, on one occasion the police patrol were going by, lying in ambush, and they saw three or four men passing on the road, and they heard one of them say, “ We found it very hard to make that fellow take the oath.” 490. Did the police arrest any of those people ? —No; the matter was referred to me, but as they could not identify the voices of any of the three parties that were there, the police could, of course, make no arrest. 491. Chairman .] Was that since the passing of the Peace Preservation Act ?—I think that was about two years ago. 492. Mr. Gregory You are of opinion that some of the very men themselves who are impli¬ cated in the Ribbon conspiracy would rejoice at any means of escape from its terrors?—I am sure of it. 493. The tendency of your evidence on Mon¬ day was rather a disapproval on the whole of the police tax ; you stated that you thought that it pressed hard upon persons who were not impli¬ cated, and that it let the actual offender go free ? —That was so. 494. I wish to ask you this; take the case which you described, of people working in a field and seeing a murder committed, would not those persons put a stop to such a proceeding, or be likely to give evidence, in order to escape the heavy tax that was sure to follow the commission of an offence ?—No, I do not think so, because I think that the terror of preserving their own life was greater than the pressure of paying the tax ; they would be certain to be either shot or badly beaten if they gave evidence, and they would much rather pay a small tax than do that. 495. Mr. James .] You stated in the course of your examination on Monday, that you thought the 23rd section of the Peace Preservation Act would be much strengthened if the words “ under suspicious circumstances ” were struck out ?— Yes. 496. Do you think the section would also be strengthened if power were given to arrest not only 0.50. d ulin s tb e night but during the daytime, per¬ sons who not only could not really give a satis¬ factory account of themselves, but were stran¬ gers in the district ?—Yes, certainly, it would strengthen it. 497. Persons arc often seen lurking about in the daytime who are strangers?—Yes. 498. If a person could not prove what his occupation was, you would see no objection to his arrest in the daytime ?—Certainly not; it would have some effect, but very little. 499. Would you recommend that to be carried out?—I would recommend that to be carried out. 500. I think the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was first put into operation in 1866, and continued iu operation till March 1869 ?— That was so. 501. I believe those crimes, such as threatening letters, and visiting and violence, increased in 1868 ?—Yes. 502. I presume you reported to the Govern¬ ment in 1868 that increase ?—I have no doubt I did ; 1 cannot specify any particular report that I made, but I did report afterwards, in 1869. 503. Did you make any recommendation in 1869 as to how to meet that increase of crime ? —I could not answer that question unless I Avent over my reports; it is more than probable that I did do so. 504. Will you explain the answer you gave to the Right Honourable Member for Buckingham- shire on the former day, in which you say that in the month of April 1869 you recommended the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, but you said that it was a strong measure, and one that you could not dare to hope would be applied?—I wish to say that 1 had a conversa¬ tion about it with the late General Weatherall; he was then Under Secretary for Ireland, and I shoAved him the draft of my report at the time, and he told me that that Avas a measure that he feared Parliament would never sanction. 505. I suppose you are aware that, in all sus¬ pensions of the Habeas Corpus Act, and all Acts that have ever been passed in suspension, the power of detention is only given in cases where persons have been arrested on warrants for treason or treason-felony, there is no excep¬ tion to that? — Yes, I am aware that they Avere arrested by the Avar rant of the Lord Lieu¬ tenant. 506. Of course anybody could be arrested, but it is the detention I am speaking of; Avas only cases where persons have been arrested for treason or treason-felony, that they could be detained for six months?—[ understood that the Act was only applicable to political offences. 507. Will you tell me this then : would you re¬ commend that a person should be arrested under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act only on account of being suspected of belonging to a Ribbon Society, or Avhere overt acts of crime had taken place?—I Avould recommend it as applicable to any person belonging to the secret society knoAvn as the Ribbon Society. 508. Without that person having committed any overt act, but on being suspected of being a party to the commission of any overt act?—• Certainly, because the party himself is rarely detected; the party involved hardly moves him¬ self, but commonly commands others. 509. You Avould have in that case to act upon the suspicions, for instance, of the local police- c 3 men, Captain G . Talbot. 22 March 1871. 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. men, without proof of the person suspected being a Ribbonman ?—Yes you would have to rely on the evidence of the police, and what other evidence you could get. 510. I presume that that is generally sus¬ picion more than direct proof?—You could never have any direct proof; that is to say, sworn proof. 511. Will you tell the Committee whether you think it would be safe to rely upon the mere statement of a suspicion by a private constable, and imprison a man for six months upon it?—It would be quite as safe in those cases as in the case of the numbers that were arrested under the suspension of the Act when it was suspended, for the Fenian conspiracy. 512. But in that case relating to Fenians, were not they able to obtain better information, namely, that they were drilling, or that they were out at night, than the mere suspicion that they were members of a secret society ?—No ; they were arrested on account of their move¬ ments, the houses they frequented, the company they kept, their movements at night, and a variety of suspicious circumstances which were connected with them. 513. Would not their movements at night and their attending meetings be more capable of proof than that which is connected with Rib- bonism, as regards which you have told us that their meetings are often in England, and do not occur locally ?—You misunderstand me when you say that; I say only that the orders come direct from England; the pass-words and signs come from England, the meetings of the delegates may be the meetings of only five or six delegates, but the meetings of the bodies in Ireland are numerously attended meetings ; sometimes there may be 15 or 20 persons at them. 514. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.~\ You say that that paper you referred to came from England ? —Yes. 515. Can you inform the Committee how re¬ cently you have been able to discover any con¬ nection of the Ribbon conspiracy with England? —The information upon which I founded that opinion was derived from an informer, who told it me about six months before I left the county. 516. Did you understand from him that the system was in active operation at the time ?— I understood it had been so within the last year. 517. In reference to your granting licenses to carry arms, am I right in saying that you limit the licenses to persons possessing 40 acres of land or upwards?—I do, except under exceptional circumstances. For instance, if a man has been in any way threatened, if a man is a care-taker, a gamekeeper, or occupies any position which renders it desirable that I should exercise any discretion, I give him a permit to carry arms, although he may not hold 40 acres of land ; that has been a sort of guide to me. 518. Is that the usual course adopted by resi¬ dent magistrates ?—I do not know what course they may adopt. 519. You do not merely take the fact of his being of good character as sufficient to entitle him to carry arms?—That is a sine qua non. If I were to give permission to every tenant in Westmeath to carry arms who had less than 40 acres of land, you would have about 5,000 licenses in Westmeath. 520. But you do not consider his being a man of good character, with less than 40 acres of land, as sufficient to warrant you in giving him a license to keep arms ?—Sometimes I have given it to a man of exceptionally good character, but it has entailed a great amount of odium upon me; it has been said. You give it to So-and-so, and do not give it to me, so I have the whole county down upon me. 521. Do the police patrol in uniform?—They did patrol in uniform, but some time ago the inspector gave an order to the men that they might patrol in plain clothes, which was carried out in the Castle Pollard district, and I have no doubt that it was carried out in the others, but that was the most disturbed at the time. 522. Chairman .] Does it really make any difference whether they patrol in uniform or in plain clothes?—Not the slightest; they are quite as well known in plain clothes as in uniform. 523. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock .] Was there more crime and outrage in Westmeath when you left than there had been at any time while you were there ?—As I stated on Monday, during the summer months there was never quite so much ; but I should state that in the spring of 1869 there was quite as much as when I left; that is to say, up to the passing of the Peace Preservation Act, and that it ceased after the passing of the Peace Preservation Act for a short time. 524. Were not there some persons in West¬ meath who were in the habit of being constantly attended by escorts of constabulary, and who discontinued their escorts ?—No ; Mr. Dickson was escorted, but he discontinued it because he left; he could no longer remain ; Mr. Hornidge is escorted to the present day : there are some in the Castle Pollard district who are still pro¬ tected. 525. In your opinion the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act is the only applicable re¬ medy for the existing evil ?—In my humble judgment, it is. 526. Do you know Mr. Seed, the Crown soli¬ citor ?—I do not. 527. Mr. MaauireA As well as I understand your evidence, you seem to say that you wanted evidence to convict persons rather than informa¬ tion ?—Y es. 528. And only two cases you said were tried within a certain time only one sei'ious case. 529. I f I remember rightly, you answered some question to the effect that there was some doubt with reference to the identity of the prisoner, because of the cap he wore being turned inside out?—Yes, 1 did. 530. Do you not think that in other counties a circumstance of that kind might lead a jury not to convict a prisoner?—It might; but the reason I mentioned that is this, because the case was so clear to everybody, and the party after he was acquitted boasted that he was the man who had committed the outrage. 531. Would you, because of a single case, think it right to advise the Government to alter the jury laws of the country ?—I have not advised the alteration of the jury laws. 532. But do you not think that the Peace Preservation Act now in force provides a remedy, in so far that the Attorney General can at any time remove a case to another county by apply¬ ing by juries ?—I think I said SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 23 mg to the Court of Queen’s Bench ?—Certainly, as I read the Act he can do so. 533. Is not that a remedy ? — It would appear so. 534. Can you imagine any more complete remedy than taking a case out of a dangerous atmosphere into one less dangerous?—No doubt it is advisable. 535. So far as I can understand, you must come to the conviction that the law is sufficient at the present moment to provide against an evil of that kind ?—So far as the juries are concerned, but not so far as the evidence is concerned. 536. Do you think that the present law has been vigorously and efficiently administered ?— With the exception of, as you say, moving the venue, which I know nothing about, I do not think that it could have been applied more vigorously. 537. For instance, you say that these Ribbon- men are suspected of holding their meetings in public-houses ?—They are. 538. And I think, if I mistake not, you stated to the Committee that within a certain number of years you had known but one case in which there was an attempt to surprise these people at their meeting?—I do not say there was only one attempt, but I am speaking of a case in which there was anything approaching a finding. 539. Would you say that within the last six years other attempts were made by the police ? —I really cannot say that; they never report their attempts to me. If any result takes place they report it, but they never report the attempt. 540. Suppose the attempt is made and fails, is not that one of the acts on the part of the con¬ stabulary that ought to be reported ?—I never hear of it. 541. You can give the Committee no informa¬ tion upon that ground ?—I have nothing to say to the constabulary unless they report an out¬ rage and I visit. 542. I understood you to say that you only knew of one case of a serious attempt made by the constabulary to surprise these people at their meeting ?—No, you misunderstood me upon that point. I do not know how many cases they have attempted, but 1 know that in one case they succeeded in finding the oath, and in seeing two men leave the room. 543. Had you yourself anything to do with the preparation of that attempt at surprise ?— No; and I may say I believe it was a failure, owing to the constable not having communicated his information to the others, and to their not having gone in a body and made arrangements to surprise the meeting. 544. Can you give the Committee an idea of what kind of house that would be where those Ribbon conspirators would have met ?—It is the house of one of the leaders; it is an hotel and public-house. 545. With a back door and a front door, I pre¬ sume ? — Yes ; and I may say that his license was suspended afterwards. 546. Would it have been a very difficult thing upon the part of the constabulary to have gone to the back door as well as the front door to com¬ plete their work ?—No ; the constable in charge, I believe, was blamed for it by the authorities. 547. .This Peace Preservation Act gives very great power I think to the local magistrates with reference to public-houses at the present time ?— 0.50. Yes ; with reference to the closing of public- houses ; that is section 24. 548. Is there not power to close them from dusk at any time you please ?—Yes. 549. Has that been put in force?—In some cases I have recommended it, and in some cases in the country districts it has been put in force, but not in Mullingar. 550. How many cases in Westmeath, or in the places which you allege to be the centres of this confederacy, has the law been put in force against these public-houses ?— I recommended it in two cases before I was leaving the county, that was in the Castle Pollard district, but I am not aware whether it was put in force or not; every constabulary officer in the county was asked whether he recommended the closing of public-houses by Government, immediately after the passing of the Act ; two of the constabulary officers and the county inspector reported directly against it at the time, and 1 consulted the magis¬ trates at Mullingar, and they were of opinion, with me, that it was unnecessary, inasmuch as there were 53 public-houses in Mullingar, and nearly 20 of them bore a very bad character; if you close one you must close all. 551. Was not it possible also to close the whole of the public-houses in the country?— Yes; but there was then no crime; it was after the suspension of the Act; crime had, as I have already said, diminished considerably; there was actually almost none during the summer months, and I did not consider it necessary to close them. 552. Your general object, as I understand, in recommending a partial suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, is to acquire the power of arresting and detaining the supposed heads of this con¬ federacy ?—Certainly. 553. Supposing an outrage happened to¬ morrow ; have you not the power by arresting those people, and compelling them, or attempting to compel them, to give evidence, and, if they refuse, of keeping them in prison for six months ? —I am not aware of it. 554. Have you read the 13th section of the Peace Preservation Act?—Very often ; that is the section relating to compelling witnesses to give evidence. 555. The marginal note is, “ In proclaimed districts, where felony is committed, justices may summon persons suspected of being capable of giving evidence in relation to such offence, and punish persons refusing to give evidence do you know that they have the power of putting a man in prison for six months in case he refuses to give evidence?—Certainly, I am aware of that. 556. Has that plan been tried?—It has all been tried, in so far as they have been asked to give evidence; they take the book and are sworn, and then they say that they know nothing at all about the matter. 557. When the magistrates have a moral con¬ viction that they are the heads of the confede¬ racy ?—Yes, certainly. 558. If you can remand them for a w r eek, may you not remand them for a very much longer time ?—What power have I to remand a man when he is sworn ; he takes the oath, and then he says he knows nothing about the matter. 559. Have you known cases of refusal to be sworn ?—Never, except under the 23rd section. A man had been out an hour after sunset, and I 0 4 asked Captain G. Talbot. 2 2 March 1871. 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. asked him to justify himself; he refused to he sworn, and I committed him. 560. In the case of outrage which you have detailed to the Committee, was there an attempt to get the heads of the confederacy, and swear them to give evidence?—No; the head of the confederacy may live 10 miles away; he might know nothing about it. 561. Would there be no heads of the con¬ federacy who might live within easy reach of the constabulary ?—Not to my knowledge. 562. Has every effort been made to find who have been connected with this confederacy or not ? — Certainly, every effort has been made. 563. Do you think the powers of the 13th section would be of any great value if properly exercised ?—I do not think they would be of any value whatever. They might be of value if the witness had the slightest degree of conscience at all, in so far that he might give evidence when he was sworn. 564. Is there not a large power given by the 15th section, “ Power to issue warrant to search in proclaimed districts for documents in the handwriting of persons suspected of writing threatening letters;” have there been many searches made for threatening letters in your county ?—There have been many, and I am afraid that I have made illegal searches, for one of my brother magistrates has been let in for 200/. damages for issuing an illegal warrant. 565. What do you mean by an illegal warrant; how can a magistrate protect himself; does not the law authorise him to give a warrant ?—If you will read the section you will see it only authorises a search in a house belonging to the person who wrote the letter. If the servant in a house was the author of a threatening letter, I could not give a warrant to search that house. 566. The section says, “ Whenever any in¬ formation in writing and on oath is made before a justice, that there is reasonable cause to suspect that any threatening letter or threatening notice was written by any person, and that there is or are to be found in any house or other place be¬ longing to or under the control of such person”? —That is the point. 567. Are the heads of the confederacy en¬ gaged in this letter writing as well as other acts of illegality ?—Of course I can only express an opinion. I am quite certain that they dictate the letters, but I am also quite certain that they would not commit their own hands to writing the letters, and more than that, some of them cannot write. 568. Could not evidence have been found of letters in their houses ?—We have often evaded the law in this way. I have directed the con¬ stabulary to search for arms as the only excuse we could make, and then perhaps they might come across some papers. For instance, one of the leading members is known to the police as the son of a farmer, and I cannot give a warrant to search that house. 569. Are you satisfied that the police are sufficiently active ?—I think that the police are active. 570. Do you think that the police are suffi¬ ciently active ?—It would be a very hard thing to say whether they were sufficiently active ?—I think they are active. 571. Are y6u satisfied with the constitution of the police as a means of detecting or prevent¬ ing crime ?—I think it could be made no better to detect crime. 572. Could you suggest no improvement?—I could suggest no improvement. 573. Are they not rather too much of a mili¬ tary body ?—I do not think that in the state the district I speak of in Westmeath is in, you could do without their being a military body. 574. Would you supplement this military by a detective force ?—I think they would be perfectly useless. 575. Will you state to the Committee why you would consider them useless ?—Because when the Government have sent me detectives, they have not been 24 hours in the county before they were known. 576. How many were sent down at a time?— I have had three. 577. Suppose 20 were sent down, do you think the same objection would apply ?—I think that they would be all the better kno wn then. 578. Do you think that there is any mode of improving the police and of rendering them more efficient?—I do not think that there is any improvement, except that their time might be less occupied upon paper and more upon patrol. 579. Would you advise a larger number of police to be sent without at the same time taxing the population with them ?—I think the more Ave have the better; I do not know Iioav many there are noAv in Westmeath, but I knoAV that I attended a meeting of the magistrates im¬ mediately after Mr. Anketell’s murder, and we asked for a larger number of police afterwards; and Avith great difficulty the Government got them together to send them down. 580. Assuming that your recommendation was adopted, and that the Habeas Corpus Act was locally suspended, by what means Avould you get at the heads of the conspiracy in Manchester, and other large toAvns in England ? — Of course, if it Avere only suspended in the county of Westmeath, you could not get at those in Manchester, but I think that their operations Avould cease in Westmeath. 581. If you paralysed them locally, do you think that Avould prevent the influence of those people in large English toAvns ?—Yes ; and I presume that if once suspended over even so very small a district as ours, the other districts might be led to believe that it Avould be sus¬ pended there, and that they Avould also desist from their illegal combinations. 582. Is it your suggestion, that those extreme measures which you propose should be of tempo¬ rary duration ?—Certainly. 583. For Avhat time Avould you propose that they should last ?—I do not think it Avould be necessary even to keep them in continuance for tAVO years, and I do not think it Avould be neces¬ sary even to keep the men in confinement for a year, or for six months. 584. But you would not give the Government power to apply the suspension to any other portion of Ireland, would you ?—I think, if it Avas once applied to any part of Ireland, they might, if they saAV cause, apply it to other parts. 585. You Avould Avish to arm the Government Avith poAver, so that if they please, or Avhere they see cause, they may suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in that locality?—Yes; the reason that I have come to that conclusion, and one of the things SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 25 things which has brought it more forcibly to my mind, is this, that I stated that I thought the Ribbon Society and the Fenians were almost amalgamated; that the Fenians were engrafted, as it were, upon the Ribbon Society, and that when the suspension of the Act 'was passed, in 1866, I am quite sure that the leaders of the Ribbonmen thought they were quite capable of being taken up as Fenians, as well as Ribbon- men ; that the Act applied to them as well, and that accounts in a great measure for the diminu¬ tion of crime in those years. 586. How do you account for the diminution of crime at the same time in other counties in which Ribbonism existed?—I am not aware that Ribbonism did decrease. I am not acquainted with the statistics of other counties. 587. Is there not in other counties almost an absence of crime at the present moment ?—I am so occupied with my own county that I have not acquainted myself with others, so as to be able to give any opinion respecting them. 588. Have there not been large clearances of land in Meath and Westmeath ?—With reference to Meath, I can only speak from the public prints; with regard to Westmeath, I know of no public clearances; the landlords, on the contrary, there, I believe, are excellent landlords; I know of no extermination or oppression. 589. But do you know that in the county of Meath there are very large grazing farms ? —I have read of that in the public papers, and I have read that there are exterminations going- on o o there. 590. And that many of those are of recent origin?—Yes, I have heard of it; but I should prefer not speaking of Meath, because I know nothing personally about it. 591. But, as a simple matter of fact, where many farms are converted into one large farm, of course there must be a great many evictions, and there must be consequent misery ?—Yes. 592. What is your idea of the origin of this confederacy ?—From the inquiries which I have made, I believe that it was originally exclusively applicable to land evictions, ancl in similar cases. 593. And, even at the present moment, do I understand you to say that land has a great deal to do with this kind of crime ?—Yes, it has. 594. It has been more or less connected with land ? — I have said already that the Ribbon Society vows vengeance against anyone who will turn out anybody from a house, even a labourer; and also against informers; anybody who will give evidence or prosecutes suffers from their vengeance. 595. Do you anticipate any better state of things from the operations of the present law respecting land, that is to say, the Land Bill ? — I think the Land Bill works very well indeed, and has given great satisfaction, but I do not think that it will be sufficient to, in any way, induce the Ribbonmen to give up their con¬ spiracy. 596. You are of opinion, as you stated to the honourable Member for Galway County, that that would render that class of people less dan¬ gerous and more contented ?—I think it answers its purpose in rendering them more contented, but I do not think that it will be sufficient to eradicate Ribbonism. 597. But do you think precautionary measures would alone be sufficient; supposing you had the 0.50. power of dealing with this question, would you be of opinion that by merely putting down crime for a moment that would prevent its recurrence ? —I certainly should think so, because I feel that this conspiracy is led and governed by a few heads who keep the others in perfect terror; I also think that by remedial measures you may lessen its effects ; yet as long as theSe people can live by it and can dictate and defy the law, it will take much more than remedial measures to set things straight. 598. And at the same time, to produce a more wholesome feeling upon the community, you would improve the condition of the labouring classes ?—Certainly. 599. Mr. Gregory .] In reply to a question put by the honourable Member for Cork, you were speaking of the difficulty magistrates had in obtaining any evidence whatever with regard to threatening letters, and the danger that the magistrates incurred in making searches in the houses; may I ask, is that not owing to the wording of the 15th section of the Act that you are only enabled to make a search where it is supposed that this document or those documents that are to be searched for is in the handwriting of the owners of the house; will you just look at the section and say whether that is not a great impediment to the search for arms?—I think it is. 600. Will you just read the section to the Committee ?—“ Whenever any information in writing and on oath is made before a justice, that there is reasonable cause to suspect that any threatening letter or threatening notice was written by any person, and that there is or are to be found in any house or other place belong¬ ing to or under the control of such person in a proclaimed district any document or documents in his handAvriting;” that is what it says. 601. If you had almost a conviction that there were documents in another person’s handwriting of a threatening character, you would not be able to search for them?—No; and you must have regard also to the very great difficulty that exists in comparing handwritings. Yery few are able, and very few are willing to swear to the similitude of handwritings. 602. Colonel Wilson PattenC\ You have just been asked by the honourable Member for the City of Cork whether Ribbonism is not generally confined to cases relating to land ; may I ask you whether the murder of Mr. Anketell had any connection at all with land ?—No; only as re¬ garded a cabbage garden. 603. That outrage was entirely connected with his conduct as a railway official ?—It was. 604. Are you aware whether the system of Ribbonism is carried on to any extent in the railway system of Ireland ?—Certainly it is. 605. And that, as far as the railway system is concerned, it does go out of the county of West- meatli ?—Certainly. 606. I believe it is pretty well known that on one of the principal lines of Ireland Ribbonism has a very great effect upon the whole of the people employed upon that system ?— I speak as far as my own county goes. 607. You will not speak beyond that?—No; because the railway servants are always being removed backwards and forwards. 608. Chairman .] When you say your own county, you speak of Westmeath, I presume?— I speak of Westmeath. D Colonel Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871 . 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Tulhot. 22 March 1871. 609. Colonel Wilson Patten.~\ You stated, in the latter part of your evidence on Monday, that you believed some difference of system did exist in Ribbon lodges now to that which existed some years ago ?—I did. 610. Will you describe to the Committee what is the difference of the system which exists now from that which existed formerly, from any know¬ ledge you may have received?—I think, from information I have received, that in former times the system was more regular. A person was tried, as it Avere, before some description of com¬ mittee, and his acts were canvassed, and it was decided by a majority of the committee whether any punishment should follow or not. I believe that it has now degenerated into a semi-Fenian Ribbon society, which takes cognisance of every description of grievance. 611. What was the punishment generally awarded under the old system ?—Invariably death. 612. And at what period should you say the system changed ?—When I first went into the county I heard of such a committee having sat upon the steward of the Honourable Mr. Parnell, and that was described to me as a regular sitting’ of a committee to inquire into his acts. 613. Do you believe that under the old system these sentences were confined exclusively to eviction for land?—I believe under the old system they were entirely confined to evictions and quarrels about land; quarrels between party and party. 614. The sentences were carried into effect quite as much upon the tenants as upon the land owners?—Yes; if a person took land against the orders of the lodge, he was dealt with in th.e same way as the landlord would have been if he had evicted him. 615. Your attention, of course, has been directed to the effect of what is termed in Ireland The Extra Police Act?—Yes. 616. Do you believe that the enforcement of that Extra Police Act has tended much to the repression of crime?—No; I stated that I did not think it had ; I think it made many discon¬ tented, and the only good I see from it is that it afforded more police for patrolling purposes. 617. Do you not believe that the enforcement of it has rendered many persons in Ireland dis¬ affected towards the Government who had pre¬ viously not had these feelings?—“ Disaffected” is a strong word; I think that they have grumbled and dislike it, and it has made them, I will not say disaffected, but discontented. 618. But I understand you to say that it has had no good effect in the repression of crime ?— No good effect at all in the repression of crime; it has made many people who were discon¬ tented disaffected. 619. You stated to the Committee that there were some of the magistrates in the county of Westmeath, who were still protected by the constabulary ?—When I left the county they were. 620. Would you state about what number were under the protection of the police when you left the county of Westmeath ?—Do you mean either escorted or protected ? 621. Either escorted persons, in whose case recommendations had been given to the police to look after their safety?—I think there were five or six in my district, but that is only a small portion. 622. What was the police force in your district at that time ?—I should think the outside was 200 men in my district. 623. What does your district comprise ?—It comprises about two-thirds of the county. 624. Would you describe about what acreage, or what that would be in length and breadth ?— I should say about 28 miles by 15 miles. 625. And what is the population of it?—I could not give the population of that portion of the county ; some of it is very thickly populated, and some of it is very thinly populated. It in¬ cludes the town of Mullingar. 626. During your residence there, were there any gentlemen, and other parties besides magis¬ trates, who applied to you for similar protection ? —Not for perpetual protection. I have been applied to frequently for protection to persons to go to serve notices for non-payment of rent. 627. By whom Avere those applications made ? —In one case a magistrate himself made the application to me ; we could not get the process- server to go. 628. Sir G. Grey.~\ Was that application made by him as a magistrate, or as a landoAvner ? — As a landoAvner; he could not get the process- server to go, and the Under Secretary directed me to protect him. 629. Colonel Wilson Patlen .] You are aAvare, you state, of the system of black mail being levied in the county of Westmeath?—Not under the term of black mail. 630. What term would you give to it?—You may, perhaps, call it black mail, but the effect of it is, that if a fine is inflicted, it is immediately subscribed for by the Ribbonmen, and it is paid. If I sentence a man to a fine of 5 /., although he may not be worth 10 s., the fine will be paid. 631. Is that system applied to tenants as well as landlords; is the subscription levied upon the. tenants as Avell as upon the landlords?—I have never knoAvn it levied upon the landlords. 632. Are you avvare of any case in which it has been attempted to be levied upon the landlords ? —No, I am not aAvare of it. 633. It is generally levied upon the tenant?— The party may be a tenant, but if he is a sympa¬ thiser of any kind, he must contribute. I have known of a man being beaten for refusing to subscribe 2 s. 6 d. towards a fine, and his refusing subsequently to prosecute. 634. Do you know of some of the Ribbonmen making money by these transactions?—Certainly, I believe that to be the case. 635. Do you knoAV of a case Avhere 200 /. was found in the possession of a person suspected of Ribbonism in the labouring class of life ?—I have heard that he was not in the labouring class, but that he Avas a farmer. 636. But he was a person who Avas well knoAvn not to be likely to have a sum of that kind in his possession, Avas he not ?—Certainly, he was a very small farmer. 637. Hoav Avas the money made?—From my inquiries into the system, 1 find that e\ r erybody subscribes so much each month ; the collectors go round on a car for the subscriptions. 638. For what object do they subscribe ?—For the purpose of keeping the body together for the general purposes of the conspiracy, and they are paid, as I understand; the parish masters are paid a certain sum. 639. Are there any fines levied for breach of the rules of the society ?—Certainly ; they are fined 27 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). getting O O ' I do. giving © O material to this the truth from fined for quarrelling and striking each other, and for breach of exclusive dealing. 640. Where there has been a change of tenancy, has the tenant coming in paid a fine to the Rib¬ bon Society to protect himself against the conse quences of so coming in ?—In the case of a man who was shot upon a farm for having taken pos¬ session of it, he stated (having refused to be sworn or to prosecute, although we believed he knew the parties to it) that it was too bad to pay his money and to be shot besides. 641. Do you think that there are individuals in the county of Westmeath possessing informa¬ tion with regard to the Ribbon conspiracy in Westmeath who could not give their evidence here without danger to their lives ?—Certainly. 642. And do you think that the information that they could give would be Committee ?—So far as them is material, certainly 643. You think that giving such evidence would be attended with danger to their lives? — I think the fact of their coming over here, and being absent from their county alone at this time, would endanger their lives. 644. You have left the county, I believe?—I have left the county, but I have not left the country. 645. With regard to the fund which was found in the possession of the man, the 200 l. you spoke of, and another case of 50 which I believe came under your cognisance in another house, have you any reason to believe that that fund was applied for carrying out the designs of the Ribbon Society l —I believe so, but my brother magistrate will be able to tell you about that better than I can. 646. Sir G. GreyC\ Do the leaders receive salaries out of these funds ?—They do. 647. For their own personal use ?—Yes, for their own personal use. 648. Mr. Chichester ■ Fortescue.~\ And having the handling of these funds, some of it remains with them ?—Some of it certainly remains with them. 649. The Solicitor General for Ireland. ] When you say they make money by it, do you mean to convey that in addition to the payment they re¬ ceive, they may apply some of the money to their own purposes?—I think so. 650. Speaking of black mail; I heard it stated a short time ago, and I want to know whether you know anything about it or not, that certain people of position in the county of West¬ meath paid sums of money to the Ribbon Society to ensure their protection, which is what is generally known as paying black mail; did you ever hear of instances of that kind ?—I have heard it stated, but I do not believe it. 651. You do not believe that local gentlemen contribute to the Ribbon Society?—Certainly not; I think it is quite likely that the local gentry may have some persons in their employment who may give them a friendly hint now and then; I believe my own gardener is a Ribbonman. 652. Do you believe that having those persons in their employment, suspecting them to be Hib- bonmen, they retain them in their employment to get this information from them ?—I do not get know whether they pay them or not, but I consider that it would be a difficulty for any gentleman in Westmeath not to have a Ribbonman in his em- t ploymcnt. 653. It has been said that the local gentry leave the administration of the law very much in 0.50. I the hands of the resident magistrate?—I can only say that I have never had a word of differ¬ ence with my brother magistrates, but I see that the “ Irish Times ” recommends the withdrawal of stipendiary magistrates; I should have been only too glad to have been withdrawn before. 654. These local gentry are not prevented from taking their due share in the administration of the justice of the county, are they?—Certainly not. 655. Is it not the fact that the resident magis¬ trate is always very glad to have their assistance and advice upon the bench ?—I am always very glad to have it, and I believe it is the fact with mv brother magistrates. 656. You said something about a trial in which a man was acquitted, in which a question arose as to the identification of the man’s cap; when did that trial take place ?—About 2£ years ago ; it was the very day that Mr. Anketell was mur¬ dered; in the Spring Assizes of 1868. 657. In reply to a question put by the honour¬ able Member for Taunton, you stated that except in the case of changing the venue, the Peace Pre- servation Act has been vigorously administered ? —Yes. 658. Have you known any cases in which the section relating to the change of venue could have been applied in Westmeath, and it was not applied ?—No, I have never known any case in which it could have been applied except in that case. 659. But that case occurred before the law was passed ?—Certainly. 660. Have you since the law was passed known such another case ?—Certainly not. 661. Therefore you do not require to qualify your answer, because you can state that, without any exception, the Peace Administration Act has been most vigorously administered?—Yes, most wisely administered. 662. You have heard of the case of the Queen against Barrett, have you not ?—Yes. 663. You have heard that this section was had recourse to in that case, and that the venue was changed to Dublin ?—Yes. 664. And that the prisoner was acquitted in Dublin ?—Yes, that Avas the case of firing at Captain Lambert. 665. Now, you stated to my friend, the honourable Member for Taunton, that in the case of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and its application to political offences, the man¬ ner in which that information was obtained was by watching the movements of men out at night under suspicious circumstances, the houses that they went into, and the company that they fre¬ quented ?—Yes, that was so. 666. Would not the movements of men out at night, and watching the houses that they went into, bring them under the operation of the 23rd section of the Peace Preservation Act, as persons being out at night under suspicious circumstances ? —Taking it under the question of suspicious cir¬ cumstances, I should have convicted them, but as I said before, many magistrates thought that those of themselves were not suspicious circum¬ stances. 667. Then, in point of fact, the failure of that section has been OAving to the doubt Avhich has been entertained by the magistrates as to the suspicious circumstances ?—Yes, that has been the cause of it. d 2 Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. 668, You 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. 668. You yourself have beeu more liberal in your interpretation of the meaning of the section ? —I am afraid that I may have exceeded the law in imprisoning men under it as I have done. 669. You have suggested that the section should be altered by leaving out the words “ under suspicious circumstances,” and substitu¬ ting “ found out at night without being able to give an account of themselves,” or something of that sort ?—Failing to satisfy the justices that he was out on his legitimate business. 670. In an ordinary case, the magistrates be¬ fore whom the case was brought, would be the supreme judge, and would have to be satisfied in his own mind that the man was upon his legitimate business?—Of course he would, but there is an appeal as it is ; and if you give an appeal, of course the summary proceedings are taken away. 671. I think you are mistaken in that; there is no appeal under the 23rd section, is there ?— What I should say is that the procedure under the Peace Preservation Act is according to the 14th & 15 th of Victoria, which gives an appeal to anything over one month’s imprisonment. 672. You stated in your previous evidence, “ In the case of the Peace Preservation Act, I am satisfied that people did not know the nature of the Act for some time afterwards ; they thought it was very much more stringent; they thought it was almost a suspension of t)ie Habeas Corpus Act; they are not aware at the present moment, even that under the provisions of the Peace Pre¬ servation Act of 1870, as I read it in my humble judgment, if a man is arrested for being out after sunset he need only lodge notice of appeal, and all your summary powers are taken away from you, as the procedure is under the 14th & 15th of Victoria, which gives an appeal to anything over a month’s imprisonment?”—That is my im¬ pression ; I may be wrong, but I certainly have been under that impression. 873. Is it not the fact that that only refers to the 13th section, and not the 23rd section?— I think it refers to everything in the Act. 674. Do you mean that irrespective of any provision in that Act, there is another statute which overrides this Act, and that wherever the imprisonment is over a month it gives an appeal to quarter sessions ?—Yes, that is my impression; section 40 of the Peace Preservation Act says, “ Every penalty recoverable under the provisions of this Act shall be recoverable in a summary way, with respect to the police district of Dublin metropolis, subject and according to the provisions of any Act regulating the powers and duties of justices of the peace for such district or of the police of such district, and with respect to other parts of Ireland, before a justice or justices of the peace sitting in petty sessions, subject and according to the provisions of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, and any Act amending the same, and with the like right and power of appeal as in the said Act is given and provided for, and shall be applied according to the provisions of the Fines Act (Ireland), 1851, or any Act amending the same.” 675. Does not that refer to penalties alone; it does not refer to imprisonment at all?—I dare say I may be wrong in that; I am not a lawyer. 676. But at all events, if this were the fact, and if that 23rd section were amended as you suggest, and if there were no power of appeal, that would give, would it not, to each magistrate a power of imprisoning for six months, and it would depend only upon the conclusion he would arrive at in his own mind whether or not he was satisfied as to the excuse that was given to him for the person’s being out at night ?—Certainly it would. 677. I wish to know whether these attacks upon houses, and these murders, generally take place at night, or in the day-time ? — They generally occur at night; there have been some which have occurred in the day-time ; all the visiting of houses by armed parties, and outrages of that class, occur at night; those which we call Whiteboy offences, and most of the murders, are committed at night. Welsh’s murder was com¬ mitted in the day-time. 678. Have you had any experience as to the action of the 39th section, which gives power to the grand jury to present compensation in certain cases of murder ?—I have had no experience of that, as that has been acted upon since I left the county. 679. You have never yourself required an escort for your protection ?—Never. 680. Is that on account of the men in autho¬ rity among the Ribbonmen not interfering with magistrates ?—I do not know; I have never re¬ ceived any threatening letters, or anything of a violent nature. 681. You told us that on one occasion a Rib- bonman said that the law did not touch him as it stood?—Yes ; that he ruled the country. 682. Was any attempt made to take the man up who used such expressions as that?—I cannot say ; it did not occur in my district. 683. Was that told you by a police-officer?— Yes. 684. Do you not think that such a case as that in which a man told the policeman that he, as a Ribbonman, ruled the country would be a fit case for arrest?—No, I cannot say that I do; I know that I should have been sorry to sign the warrant for his arrest on that ground, as I know that the case would be thrown out by the sessions as an idle joke. 685. You stated, with reference to the Police Tax, that it was not an advantage to the district except in so far as it made the district pay for the extra police, without throwing the rate upon the county?—Yes; I have always said that. 686. And that it gave you additional facilities for patrolling ?—Yes, it did. 687. In your time, have the military been in¬ creased in Mullingar?—Yes; we have had a portion of a regiment stationed there. 688. Was that done at your suggestion?— Yes ; I applied for troops in order that I might make the same use of them as was done in Meath, but I was very reluctant to make the soldiers do the duties of the police as long as I could do without them. 689. At all events the soldiers were sent to you ?—Yes, the soldiers were sent to us. 690. Did you use them at all ?—No; I did not use them at all. 691. Did they, give any assistance to the police?—None; I did not call upon them to do so, but they were ready to do so if they had been required. 692. I want to ask whether you can give us the date at which this printed copy of the oath was found in the public-house ?—I cannot tell you 9 29 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). you the exact date of that, but I could refer to a memorandum which would tell me. 693. Have you a memorandam in town which would tell you about what time that printed copy of the oath was discovered upon the table in the public-house ?—I have. 694. I think you stated in your examination, on Monday last, that it was in 1868 ; can you tell us what time in 1868 it was ?—I think it was in the winter of 1868. 695V Was it in the early winter, or the late winter ?—I think it was in the late winter. I know the house in which it was found. 696. Were any steps taken to trace where it came from ?—I know that the Government en¬ deavoured to trace it by its print, and I think it was sent over to England; it was supposed to have been printed in Manchester. 697. Do you know whether every effort was made in that case to convict the parties supposed to have been concerned ?—Yes ; I am aware of that. 698. But there was not sufficient evidence to ensure a conviction ?—Yes, that was the case. 699. And it was, and has been, the generally received opinion that where there was not suffi¬ cient evidence to insure a conviction, it was better not to put the prisoner upon his trial, as the fact of an acquittal would give a fresh impetus to the commission of crime which was not likely to be detected, and that that consideration weighed with the authorities in directing the course to be pursued with regard to these prosecutions ?— Yes, I know that was so, in fact, that acquittal of Frele was a triumph for the party. 700. Who was the judge who tried that case ? Chief Baron Pigot. 701. You state that after that trial was over, it was found that the cap which the prisoner had worn had been turned inside out ?—■ Yes; the man was identified clearly, and the whole thing turned upon the point, whether there was a white or a red band round the cap. 702. You stated, on your last examination, that there was an advantageous change in the law with respect to the warrant for searching for arms, and that it was extended to three months; have you found that change to act advantageously? Certainly we have. 703. Have you found that people who had arms, and who were authorised to have arms by the law, make use of them for the defence of their lives and property ?—No, they do not; on the contrary, I may say that I think they are often handed out of window for purposes of outrage, and put back again. There is no help for it, they must hand them out for that purpose if they are demanded by a visit of the Ribbon- men. 704. Can you give a reason why Ribbonism should be so peculiarly violent in Westmeath; you say there have been no evictions upon the part of the landlords, and that the landlords are generally good landlords; why should that disease, as I may call it, be so intense in Westmeath, as compared with other counties?—Because this body of men creates such terror in the minds of the people that they must obey them. 705. How many resident magistrates were there in Westmeath during your time?—There was always one besides myself in the district; Mr. Reed and I have been always together. 706. Were the local magistrates and the resi¬ dent gentry vigilant in discharging their duty, as 6.50. far as you could form an opinion ?—I do not like to say anything about my brother magistrates; as far as I could say, they were vigilant in dis¬ charging their duty ; they are all landlords, and have numerous duties to attend to, but I can say that whenever they could attend without incon¬ venience they did so. 707. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.~\ You gave some answers the other day to an honourable Member which seemed to imply that you thought that Ribbonism existed in the county of Mayo; did you mean to imply that?—No, certainly not; I meant quite the contrary. 708. In one part of your evidence you drew a broad distinction between the county of Mayo and the county of Westmeath?—I did. 709. And afterwards you appeared rather to qualify that opinion; I understand you to say, then, that you are not of opinion that Ribbonism exists in the county of Mayo ?—I cannot say that it may not now exist there, but I know when I was there it did not. 710. It is quite possible, is it not, that agrarian crime may prevail in a particular district without the presence of Ribbonism?—Yes, certainly. 711. And does prevail over all parts of Ire¬ land?—Certainly, I have no doubt it does. 712. Are you aware of Ribbonism within your experience having enlarged its boundaries, and spread from one county to another, or not?—I can only speak of its effects; if I see similar crimes committed in Longford it might possibly be from the extension of the system, and it might on the other hand have nothing to do with it. For instance, in the case of Mr. Crotty’s at¬ tempted murder the other day, I have no reason to suppose that that was Ribbonism, although I know that he was at variance with his tenants ** when I was in Mayo. 713. You know that in Limerick and Tipperary there have been many crimes, but that Ribbonism is not supposed to exist there as an organisation ? —That is so. 714. Is it not the fact that Ribbonism has existed from generation to generation in the same counties without much change of area?—That is what I have always heard. 715. And that in Westmeath it has been here¬ ditary and traditional for a long time past ?—Yes; whenever I have got any information about it from anybody, they always speak of it as being peculiar to Westmeath. 716. I suppose you would say that in West meath Ribbonism happened to have had a certain number of very determined and daring leaders ? —Yes, decidedly. 717. And that probably accounts a great deal for the amount of crime and terrorism which it has produced of late years ?—I think it entirely accounts for it. 718. In Westmeath, you say, you could put your finger upon a certain small number of men who you are morally convinced are the leaders of this system ; but could you do the same thing in Mayo ?—Certainly not. 719. That is to say, that in Mayo where crime is not organised as it is in Westmeath, you could not pick out half-a-dozen men, and say, if you shut those men up, you will put an end to crime in Mayo ?—Certainly not; I should hesitate to say that any man belonged to a conspiracy unless there was a visible organised conspiracy. 720. Therefore, there is that distinction be- d 3 tween Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. 30 MINUTES OE EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. tween such a county as Mayo, and such a county as Westmeath ?—Yes. 721. You are inclined to connect Fenianism and Ribbonism in such a county as Westmeath?— T es, I am. 722. Are you aware that that is not the opinion of experienced persons generally through¬ out Ireland ?—I have heard a different opinion expressed. 723. For instance, in the district where you are now stationed, you have told us that there is no connection whatever between them ?—On the contrary, they are antagonistic to each other. 724. And there is a rivalry between them ?— There is a rivalry between them, but I formed my opinion of their union in Westmeath, from the fact of knowing notorious Ribbomnen, who I also knew were Fenians; and in other cases, I was told that a certain Ribbonman was not a Fenian, but that he was a Ribbonman alone, thereby implying that union, and that many of them had become Fenians as well, so that they were a sort of mixture. 725. You have given us an opinion very un¬ favourable to the working of the extra Police Act in your district; I suppose you are aware that the Government have received very different opinions upon that subject from other parts of the country? -—At one time, I myself thought it would be effectual, and I only altered my opinion when I found out that it was not efficacious; I am aware that tliere is a different opinion held by some people, but I cannot lay my hand upon any case in which I could trace anything that resulted from it; I should, however, qualify that answer further, by saying that in Gavan’s case, whether it was attributable to the local police, or not, the dispute about the land question was settled after six months, and I recommended that the police should then be withdrawn, and they were with¬ drawn. 726. Have you had any experience of the ap¬ plication of the extra police tax in Mayo? — None whatever. 727. You would probably say that a measure of that kind might succeed in a district like Mayo, and yet might fail in Westmeath, where crime is more deeply rooted, and more difficult to deal with ?—I can easily understand that. 728. You can easily understand its being use¬ ful in other parts of Ireland, although it might fail in Westmeath?—Yes: but you must under¬ stand me as giving my evidence entirely with reference to Westmeath. 729. Chairman .] Had you exclusive jurisdic¬ tion in the district of Westmeath where you acted, or was there any other stipendiary con¬ nected with you ?—I was the only one. 730. You stated that in the system you adopted in granting licenses for arms, you did not confer with any of the other stipendiary magistrates with reference to any rule that should be adopted in granting licenses for arms?—I consulted with Mr. Reed, and we agreed upon the general terms that some line should be drawn. 731- I 11 the case of the power of committal under the 23rd section, that the power given under the 36th section can only be exercised by the magistrates at petty sessions ; who are those magistrates at petty sessions ?—Very often I am the only magistrate present; at some places there may be another, and sometimes two county magistrates, and they compose the special ses¬ sions, but two magistrates, one being a stipendiary magistrate, are required to constitute a special sessions. 732. But you by yourself are competent to constitute a petty sessions?—Yes. 733. Are sessions often held by you alone?— Yes, sometimes, unless that were so there would be no sessions. 734. Colonel Wilson Patten.~\ It is not the habit in Ireland that the local magistrates should attend the petty sessions ?—Certainly not; there are petty sessions at Delvin, and unless I go there there is no magistrate attends. 735. Sir G. GreyC\ Then the execution of the law falls almost exclusively upon the stipen¬ diary magistrate ?—In Westmeath. 736. Is that the case in your present district? —No, I have five magistrates sitting with me. 737. To what do you attribute the absence of the magistrates from the petty sessions in West¬ meath ?—I cannot give the reason why they do not attend. 738. Is it from a fear of the consequences?— I do not like to give an opinion when I am un¬ certain upon the subject, but I am quite sure that it is very unpleasant for a magistrate to imprison a Ribbonman who may live at his gate or next door to him. 739. You stated that you believed that you had a Ribbonman in yonr own employ ; has any outrage been committed in Westmeath upon any stipendiary magistrate, within your recollection ? —I am not aware of any outrage upon a stipen¬ diary magistrate, but T am aware, or I have good reason to believe, that the life of a stipendiary magistrate was in danger in one case. 740. Has any attempt been made upon the life of that stipendiary magistrate?—No attempt has been made upon his life, but I believe that it was in contemplation to do it. 741. I wish to refer to an answer you gave with reference to the suggestions which you made to the Government. You said, “ I sug¬ gested the system of watching, but I distinctly said that I suggested that failing the other remedy, which I had previously recommended, which I thought was a strong measure, and one which I could not dare to hope would be ap¬ plied will you explain to the Committee what was the system of watching which you recom¬ mended?—I was asked by the Government to consider what means might possibly succeed in putting an end to the machinations of those indi¬ viduals, and the only thing which occurred to me was, that an iron hut should be placed close to the residence of the party within view, and that a police party should be placed in it, with cars or means of locomotion at their dis¬ posal, and that they should follow him wherever he went; if he went to the public-house, or if he went into the country, he should be always followed and watched; and I thought that by these means his machinations might be foiled, or that he would be so disgusted that he might pos¬ sibly leave or give it up entirely. 742. Has any system of that kind been adopted?—No; every exertion was made to get a site, and then the person who first offered to give it said afterwards, that there could be none obtained ; nobody would give a site, and none could be obtained. 743. AVhat Avas the sort of person who offered a site ?—He was a person of the rank of a gentle¬ man ; he offered it first, and then he afterwards said SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 31 said that it was so out of the view of the farm that it would be of no use. 744. Is there any cause to which you can attribute that refusal ?—I have not the slightest doubt that it was through fear. 745. Did I understand you rightly to state that in ordinary cases of larceny there was no difficulty in obtaining evidence?—There is no difficulty in obtaining evidence in larceny cases. 746. There was no general indisposition in cases of that kind to come forward?—No general indisposition. 747. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.~\ In an answer which you gave to the honourable and gallant Member for Lancashire, you did not mean the Committee to infer that generally the Irish ma¬ gistrates are not in the habit of attending petty sessions?—Certainly not. I mean to say that in the county of Westmeath the sessions were so situated that very few magistrates attended them. 748. And that in the county of Westmeath, whatever the cause may be, there is a very short attendance at the petty sessions ?—I say that en¬ tirely with reference to Westmeath, not to any other part of Ireland; I confined that entirely to my own particular district. 749. Mr. Hardy.] Are there any particular difficulties in getting to the petty sessions in Westmeath ?—In the district of Delvin, that I alluded to. Lord Greville is a magistrate, and he is away for eight or nine months during the year; he attends them whenever he is at home. Then there is one other magistrate, who is a very large proprietor. I allude to Mr. Fetherston, and it is very often not Mr. Fetherston’s convenience to attend, and Mr. Chapman suffers from very ill health. 750. Sir G. Grey .] Do you know the number of local magistrates in your district ?—I think the number would be about 100. 751. That is the district which you describe as being about 28 miles by 15 miles ?—Yes. 752. The Solicitor General for Ireland .] How many court-houses are there in that dist rict of yours ?— In my district I think there are 10 sessions. 753. Ten sessions every month? — No; 10 localities. 754. And then the petty sessions are held in those places once a fortnight, I suppose ?—Some once a fortnight, and some once a month. 755. Mr. Disraeli .] How many Avould there be upon the list of acting magistrates?—Upon the list of acting magistrates there would not be 20 . 756. Mr. Hardy.] When you say acting, do you mean capable of acting ?—Yes, capable of acting, and resident upon the spot. 757. Chairman .] And a large number of those magistrates do not reside in the county at all ?— A great number; I can give you the number attending each bench ; in Mullingar there are three. 758. Mr. Hardy .] Are you aware of any of those magistrates not being qualified to act?— Certainly not. 759. Are you aware of any magistrate not having, taken out his dedimus, or not having taken his oaths ?—Each magistrate has taken out his dedimus, and has taken his oaths. 760. You mean by the term magistrate a man . 0.50. who has taken out his dedimus and who has taken his oaths ?—Certainly ; three attend at Mullingar as well as myself. Four attend Ballina- cargy, and two attend Collinstown, three attend Castle Pollard, Lord Longford, Mr. Dease, and Mr. Evans. 761. With the exception of Delvin, there is an attendance of local magistrates?—Y"es, there is a general attendance; I do not mean to say that there is a constant attendance, but there is a general attendance. 762. Mr. Bruen.] You stated in answer to some questions that were put to you, that the outrages which had occurred in Tipperary and Limerick were not attributable to Eibbonism ; do y on state that of your own knowledge ?—I have always heard that there was no Ribbonism in Tipperary. 763. You stated to the Committee that per¬ sons were formerly tried before a committee of the Ribbon Societv ?•—I believe that used to be the case. 764. Can you state the nature of the trial; was the accused person ever present?—No, cer¬ tainly not; his acts were canvassed. 765. It was therefore an arbitrary affair; it was more of a sentence than a trial, was it not ? —Certainly, it was only a form; a mere farce of a trial. 766. Mr. Downing.'] I understand you to say that in one case, under the 23rd section, because a witness refused to be sworn, you committed him ; that was a party who was brought before you, taken up under suspicious circumstances; will you explain how that occurred ? — Under that section I believe the man is a competent witness, and that he can be sworn ; he failed to satisfy me that he was upon any legitimate busi¬ ness, and I considered that he was out then under suspicious circumstances, and I committed him. 767. Chairman.] He refused to be sworn?—I asked him to be sworn, and he refused. 768. Mr. Doicning.] Did you commit him be¬ cause he refused to be sworn, or because after examination you believed that he was out under suspicious circumstances ?—Because I believed that he was out under suspicious circumstances, and I was strengthened in that belief by the fact that he refused to be sworn. 769. You also stated that your recommenda¬ tion with regard to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would go to affect all societies which were secret societies ?—I cannot speak of what may occur ; I speak of the state of the Ribbon Society in Westmeath at the present time. 770. Would you apply that law to any society that had passwords or signs, or was known by passwords or signs ?—I w'ould rather not speak with regard to anything but the Ribbon So¬ ciety. 771. If there was in another part of Ireland another society which was in the habit of com¬ mitting outrages and serious offences, and which was bound by signs and passwords, would you apply the same suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act to that society and its district?—I am not prepared to give an answer as regards that. 772. You were asked a question by the honourable Member for the City of Cork with reference to the juries in Westmeath, and you said in reply that some were very good and some were very bad; I suppose that answer will apply to other parts of Ireland ?—No ; I do not think d 4 that Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871. Captain G. Talbot. 24 March 1871 . 32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE that there is any part of Ireland which is so bad as the lower part of the panel in West¬ meath. 773. Are you not aware of parties having been acquitted in the north part of Ireland upon very clear evidence ?—I have heard of that, cer¬ tainly. 774. Mr. Russell Gurney .] The Committee understood you to say, in your examination on Monday, that you did not know of any eviction except for non-payment of rent; was that so ?— Yes; I cannot call to mind any case of eviction in the county of Westmeath, except for non¬ payment of rent. 775. Chairman .] You were asked by an honourable Member whether any of the Ribbon leaders were supposed to be making money through their connection with the society ; have you reason to suppose that, quite independently of any funds they may receive by collecting and receiving the funds of the society, their connec¬ tion with it may be profitable to them in their ordinary business ?—Certainly, it may be profit¬ able. 776. As farmers?—Yes, as farmers, and in dealing at fairs and markets. 777. And in keeping public-houses?—And in keeping public-houses, certainly. 778. Do you believe that such is the case ?— Yes, I believe that such is the case; and upon that part of the subject, namely, the receiving and disposal of the money, I may say that I am aware that the families of the prisoners in the case of Mr. Anketell’s murder, or those who were believed to be his murderers, were sup¬ ported, we could not tell how, but they lived always better than they did before while the parties were in prison. 779. Were any Fenian leaders arrested in your district under the Habeas Corpus Suspen¬ sion Act ?—Immediately after the Act was sus¬ pended there were 16 arrested. 780. Were they confined for a considerable time ?—Every one of them was confined under a warrant from the Lord Lieutenant; some of them were let out very shortly, and some of them were kept in a longer time. I think that the longest period of imprisonment was about six months; they were all let out upon their recog¬ nizances for good behaviour, as recommended by me. 781. Do you believe that any of those persons were connected with the Ribbon Society as well as with the Fenian Society?—I am satisfied of it. 782. You never obtained any information about the Ribbon Society from them, did you ? —No, they left the country, most of them I think ; nearly all of them, I think, are out of the country. 783. In recommending the partial suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, do you consider there would be reason to hope that the good effect ■would be permanent, or that it would be merely of temporary duration ?—I can only say that I think it, and I hope it would be. 784. You think that it -would have a ,perma- nent effect ?—I think it would. 785. In what way?—Inasmuch as if it -was once done it might be done again; as in the case of a man who is liable to be taken up and to suffer imprisonment; if he is at large and goes through the same course as before, I think the knowledge that he might be taken up again would have an effect upon him. 786. Do you think that it would assist ma¬ terially in getting evidence, and thus in securing convictions?—At first I do not think it would, but if you are enabled by that process to eradicate or weaken this society, I think it more than pro¬ bable then that people would not be afraid to come forward and give evidence, but I think the process would be very slow. 787. You are of opinion that under certain circumstances information might be got from the leaders themselves ; if you could thoroughly frighten the leaders, do you think it is possible that information might come in even from some of the leaders?—I think it is only possible, but I would not hold out much hope of it. Rib- bonism is not the same thing as Fenianism ; the rules are so much more stringent, and it is so secret, and the punishment it inflicts is so severe, and always carried out, that I do not think that which you suggest would have much effect in. bringing forward the leaders. 788. Sir G. Grey.~\ And the objects of the society are different from those of the Fenian Society?—Yes, the objects are quite different. 789. Chairman. ] Are you satisfied that if such a measure as this were carried out it would be not to the injury of the well-disposed part of the population, but rather for their benefit ?—It would be entirely for their benefit. 790. You would have no fear of committing any injustice?—Certainly not. 791. Mr. Russell Gurney .] You would have no fear of creating that sort of dissatisfaction which you say is now created by the police tax ? —No, I am positive that no man in the county of Westmeath who is unconnected with Ribbonism would have any fear of arrest. 792. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.] Is there any fear that any mistake was made in any of the arrests that were made under the Lord Lieu¬ tenant’s warrant ?—On the contrary, I have been informed since that they were correctly made ; I have been confirmed in several of the cases, and as to the others I was satisfied at the time. 793. Has it ever been suggested in the neigh¬ bourhood that any mistake was made, and that anyone of those 16 persons was improperly arrested ?—I have never had any such sugges¬ tion made to me. 794. Not even by their own friends ?—Of course they all protested, even the worst of them, at the time, that they were innocent. 795. Was there any impression at the time that the wrong men had been taken up ?—Not connected with the 16 Fenians. 796. The Solicitor General for Ireland.'] Sup¬ posing that a measure for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act were introduced into Parlia¬ ment, do you think that there would be any danger of the press saying that coercion was being applied to the people, and that that would have an evil effect upon the minds of the popula¬ tion ?—From reading the papers, I am quite certain that the one side would call it an oppres¬ sive Act, and that the power was made use of to coerce Ireland ; I am perfectly certain of it. 797. Chairman.] Is there anything which you would wish to add to the evidence which you have given to the Committee ?—I should like to qualify a statement which I made. Your Lord- ship asked me if there had been any convictions of SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 33 of a serious nature, and I stated that there had been one. I should have stated also, that pre¬ viously to that, in the year 1869, there was one other conviction. That was in a case where the police had come across a party of armed men who had been returning; from visiting; a house, and they arrested them with arms in their hands. Those men were convicted before Lord Chief Justice Monaghan, and were sentenced to two years’ imprisonment; there were four of them. That conviction was obtained owing to the police having actually come across them, and the evidence of the police was the only evidence that was produced. Mr. William Morris Reade, called in; and Examined. 798. Chairman .] Will you inform the Com¬ mittee how long you have been a resident magistrate ?—I have been seven years and eight months as a resident magistrate. 799. In what county ?—In the county of Westmeath, stationed at Kilbeggan. 800. What district does that comprise ?—That comprises the whole of the southern portion of the county, and a considerable portion of the south-western district. 801. You have heard the evidence given by Captain Talbot, have you not ?—I have. 802. Can you confirm, with reference to your district, the statements which he has made as to the existence of crime?—Yes, the same class of crime that he has been describing to the Com¬ mittee exists in my district; in the whole of it. 803. Have you found the same difficulty in obtaining evidence that Captain Talbot de¬ scribes ? —Exactly the same. 804. I believe that in your district threatening letters have been exceedingly numerous ?—Yes, they have been exceedingly numerous of late ; the last year and a half or two years particularly, I should say. 805. Has that class of offence been in existence during the whole of your connection with the county ?—Yes, during the whole time that I have been in the county. 806. But they have become more numerous of late ?—They have become more numerous of late. 807. Do those threatening letters generally come through the post, or are they left at the houses by private men ?—The letters invariably come through the post, but the threatening notices are nosted on the doors, or on trees near chapels, and on gates, or the piers of gates. 808. Have there been any cases in which you have been able to detect the authors, or any per¬ son connected with those threatening letters ?— There has been only one case of conviction during the time that I have been in the county ; that was the case that Captain Talbot described of-. I took the depositions in his absence, being then in charge of his district. 809. Have you got sufficient information in any of those cases to send the case for trial?— Information, no, but we had strong suspicion in one instance, but the Attorney General thought it better not to prosecute. 810. But in general you have not only suffi¬ cient evidence, but you have very little know¬ ledge of the actual author ?—We have sometimes very strong suspicions, and information from the police. 811. In the only case which has been sent for trial you obtained a conviction, did you not ?— That is the only case. 812. But in all the other cases you could not obtain sufficient evidence to send the case for 0.50. E trial ?—We could not obtain sufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution. 813. In your district are there at this moment any instances of farms being vacant, on account of threatened outrages in connection with those farms ?—There are three farms vacant at pre¬ sent. 814. Have they been vacant for some time ?— One has been vacant for the last 12 or 14 years. 815. Without mentioning the names, perhaps you will just describe the circumstances of this vacant farm ?—In the first instance, the farm be¬ came vacant from non-payment of the rent in 1857, and it was subsequently taken, in the first instance, by a man who took conacre upon it. He was fired at upon the road going to Kilbeggan. A shot was fired over his head, and he was threatened and told to leave the farm, which he did not do, and shortly afterwards he was shot dead on his way home from Kilbeggan market. 816. Sir G. Grey.'] Who was that?—Edward Kelly. He was shot upon the 6th February 1858. - -- * 817. Chairman .] What is the next case?— Subsequently a man of the name of Jessop took the same farm ; he took the entire farm, and a protective party of police were stationed in the house ; he was also shot in the middle of the day on his way home from Kilbeggan market upon the high road, and died from the effects in a week or so ; that was on the 30th of April 1859. 818. That was the next year ?—Yes. 819. Sir G. Grey.] Were those men shot soon after taking the farm ?—Almost immediately after taking the farm ; since then no one has ever dared to take the farm. 820. Chairman.] Have attempts been made by the landlord to let it?—Yes; there were attempts made to let it, but no settlement was made: it is now used for agistment purposes altogether. 821. Was any resistance made to cattle being turned out to graze upon that farm ?—No, not upon that farm. 822. But the farm remains unlet and cannot be let?—The farm remains unlet, and cannot be let. 823. There has been no outrage in connection with it since 1859?—None whatever, until a short time ago it was considered that the farm had been let sub rosd, and threatening letters were sent to the agent at once. 824. Because it was suspected that it had been let ?—Because it was suspected in the country to have been let. 825. Now will you give the Committee the history of any other case ?—In the year 1863 the then tenant of-farm was evicted; he got into difficulties, and was evicted; he was very leniently dealt with by the agent, who allowed him to sell his crops, and so forth. 826. Sir G. Grey.] He got into difficulties, and Captain G. Talbot. 22 March 1871 . Mr. MorrisReade, 22 March 1871 . 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. and could not pay his rent ?— • He got into diffi- MorrtsReade. culties, and he could not pay his rent; that was - in 1863, and in the commencement of 1864 the - 2‘2 Marrli agent got a threatening letter. 1 ®7 1 * 827. Chairman.'] Was the farm re-let then ?— No; it was not re-let at that time; the agent got a threatening letter, telling him to pay more money on account to the outgoing tenant, and giving him a certain time to pay it in, or to be shot. 828. What happened then ?—The previous tenant went to Australia, and the agent then got a succession of threatening letters about the farm, dictating who he was to give it to, not men¬ tioning any person, but speaking of a person in his parish, and a neighbour. 829. Do you know whether the agent did pay any more money to the out-going tenant?—No ; he paid no more. 830. And the tenant went to Australia?—The tenant went to Australia, and the agent after receiving these threatening letters invited ten¬ ders for the farm. Several people came to look at it, and as every person walked the farm he im¬ mediately received a threatening letter, all in the same handwriting. Some time after that a man from some little distance off came and took the farm, and remained in possession for a short time, he was fired at on his way to the farm in the morning, and was wounded in nine places. 831. In what year was that?—That was on the 16th of February 1867, previous to which time he had received threatening letters with re¬ gard to his servants, ordering him to dismiss them, and not to allow them to remain upon the farm, and an armed party went to one of the servants, and beat him, and ordered him to leave the farm. 832. That was in the year 1867 ?—That was in the year 1867, and the man himself refused to give any sworn evidence at all to me ; I saw him an hour after he had been shot, and he would not tell me a word about it on oath; ulti¬ mately he gave it up in the November following ; I ought to mention that previous to this man having taken the farm, the agent himself was fired at upon the high road, owing to his having let the farm to this man. 833. Having received a series of threatening letters in the first instance?—Yes. 834. Since the man who was wounded left the farm, has it been let?'—No one has dared to take the farm since. 835. In the meantime, what has become of the farm ?—The agent endeavoured to take in grazing cattle, not only from people in the neighbourhood, but from the surrounding district, and he imme¬ diately got threatening letters, and threatening notices were posted, telling the inhabitants of the neighbourhood that the farm was solely for the immediate neighbours, and that nobody else should be allowed to send their cattle there ; so he had a few cattle taken in on agistment, and has received about 15 s. or 18 s. an acre all round. 836. Which, I presume, is far below its value, I believe ?—That is far below its value. 837. What would be about the value?—I think he has been offered 25 s. or 27 s. an acre for it. 838. He has bean actually offered that rent? —Yes, but it was by a certain party. 839. A party who knew that he would not be objected to ?—Yes. 840. And who knew that he could take it with impunity?—Yes; I may mention that some of the stock of the people who were not neighbours were driven away by an anned party, and shots were fired on the morning that they were driven away. 841. Was it daylight or night? —It was a summer’s morning, and broad daylight. 842. And there was no interference by the police?—There was no interference by the police in that case ; they did not see them. 843. You told the Committee that a number of threatening letters were received in that case, are they in the same handwriting ?—I have a great number of them in my pocket if the Com¬ mittee would wish to see them— {the same were handed in). 844. Was there no possibility of obtaining evi¬ dence with reference to the writers of those let¬ ters?—Not the slightest; we made every pos¬ sible effort to trace them, but without success. 845. Have there been any threatening letters about that farm recently ?—Within the last 12 months there have been notices posted with re¬ gard to it. These ( -producing some letters) are the notices in connection with that farm, and also in connection with other farms, showing the same organisation, and that the same scribe works for them. 846. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.] Are they all in the same handwriting ?—There are many of them in the same handwriting. 847. Are they in envelopes ?—Yes ; they are principally posted at Kilbeggan. 848. Chairman.] You state that great efforts were made to discover the writers of those letters?—Yes, every possible effort was made, both by police in plain clothes and by police in uniform, and by watching the post office, and everything else that could be done was done- 849. With reference to the third case ?—The third case is the case of a farm in the immediate neighbourhood of Kilbeggan, from which the tenant was evicted in 1868 for non-payment of rent; that is a small farm; it was then let to a neighbour, who handed it over to his brother, and he, or rather his mother-in-law, immediately sot a threatening; letter about it: an armed party went to his house, and ordered him to give up the farm. 850. Sir G. Grey.] Do you know how much rent was due ?—I do not think that there "was more than about two years’ rent due, or possibly not more than three half years’ rent. 851. Chairman.] The brother was threatened, I believe ?—The brother was threatened, and not only threatened, but last year, 1870, an armed person went to his house, and parleyed with him for some time with regard to giving up the farm, and on going away fired a shot at him, and he gave up the farm. 852. Did he report that outrage ?—No, not upon its first occurrence, but the police heard of it in about three or four hours afterwards. I mean the first outrage, the armed party of men; not the second, when only one armed man went to his house. 853. Did he give any information?—He gave simply the ordinary information that a party of men had been there, but he could not describe any of them. 854. Did he appear unwilling to give evi¬ dence ?—Quite so. 855. When did he give that farm up ?—He 35 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). gave the farm up last year after the visit of the one armed man. 856. Has it been let since ?—No, and it is too small to turn to agistment purposes, so it is growing nothing but weeds. 857. Would the landlord let it if he could ?— The agent who lives in Kilbeggan would be only too glad to let it. 858. Is it well known in the country that it Avould be unsafe to take it?—Perfectly unsafe; no man dare take it. 859. Could not a neighbour take it as in the other case ?—A neighbour did take it, and he was fired at. 860. Did you investigate the case of the murder of Dowling?—Yes. 861. When did that take place?—In last November. 862. Were there any circumstances of an agrarian character in that case?—Nothing con¬ nected with land at all. 863. Will you give the Committee just a short account of that case?—About two years before this man had been employed by a miller in the neighbourhood, and had taken the place of a care-taker, who was put away. He did not suit this gentleman ; he got no threatening notice of any kind, but his employers got a hint from a man who lived 12 miles off, that a man in their employment, mentioning the wrong name, not the name of the man who was shot, but stating that such a person should take care of himself, that he should keep in the middle of the road when going through a bog, and so forth, and he did so ; but the man himself received no threa¬ tening letter or notice of any kind that he should go away, but Messrs. Perry, the employers, did receive threatening letters during the two years previous, ordering this man Dowling to be re¬ moved amongst others. o 864. Were any extra precautions taken by the police in that case, and in similar cases ?—Yes ; as regards Messrs. Perry, they were constantly watched by the police. 865. You say Messrs. Perry were ordered to dismiss Dowling?—Yes, amongst others. 866. Was any protection given to Dowling ? — Yes; he asked for and received a revolver, and he was watched carefully by the police. 867. That was two years ago?—That was two years preceding his murder in November last, and as he was passing into his house on about the 20th f of November, at the door the assassin was within three yards of him and shot him dead. 868. Sir G. GreyC\ Where w r ere the police who were appointed to watch him ?—At the time the blunderbuss was fired they were 35 yards from the scene of the murder; they turned out and ran in every direction about the village, but it was a pitch dark night, and a thick fog, and they could see nothing of the assassin. 869. Chairman .] The report was heard ?— The report was heard, and it was described as being like the report of a small cannon. 870. Were any persons arrested for this mur¬ der?—Two persons were arrested, but I dis¬ charged them in the morning. 871. Had you been able to get any informa¬ tion about the affair?—We had received in¬ formation privately that a boy had posted those threatening letters to Messrs. Perry ; he was arrested, and brought before me and the other magistrates. He refused to be sworn, and we committed him. 0 50. E 2 872. Did you receive any certain information with regard to the actual perpetrator of the murder ?—No tangible information ; the bov, after being incarcerated for four or five days (lie was a boy of about 16 years of age), sent me word that he would consent to be sworn, and on being brought out from gaol, I tendered him the oath, and he took it, and swore that he knew nothing at all about it. I had to emancipate him directly. 873. Are the Committee to understand that you got no information, either public or private, respecting the murderer, or only that you could not get any evidence that would lead to a prosecution ?—Neither public nor private in¬ formation, nor any evidence in connection with that case. 874. Have you any reason to suppose that any person in the neighbourhood could have given evidence ?—I think the crime was known to very few in this instance. 875. But you have, in investigating other cases, found the same difficulty to which C aptain Talbot referred in obtaining evidence ?—There is not a man in the county who would give a particle of evidence in any district. 876. Neither information or evidence?— Neither the one or the other. I should say that there are men who are giving considerable in¬ formation at present as “ informers.” 877. But not of such a character as you can lay before a court? — You cannot use it at all except to stop outrages that are about to be com¬ mitted or arrest parties in the very act. 878. Sir G. GreyC\ Why is that?—Because the man who gives the information is a Ribbon- man himself. 879. But why cannot these men be summoned before the court under the 13th section ?—The man is a Ribbonman; he is a member of an illegal and secret society, and his evidence would not be admitted for a moment in a court of justice. 880. He Avould not give his evidence, Avould he ?—It would be of no use if he did, but he would not. 881. Chairman .] Do you not receive infor¬ mation of this character, simply upon the under¬ standing that the informer’s name shall not be betrayed ?—They would not give it without a certainty of secrecy. 882. It is of some little value to give?—No doubt. It has enabled the police, to a certain extent, to stop outrages being committed, and to arrest offenders immediately after the perpe¬ tration of an outrage. 883. You are of opinion that the greater part of the outrages, both of a serious and of a minor character which have taken place in your dis¬ trict, are the work of the Ribbon Society ?—I am perfectly satisfied that that is the case. 884. Y r ou have arrived at that opinion upon the same grounds as those which Captain Talbot has communicated to the Committee, I presume ? —Certainly, with this addition, that of late years, within the last two years, we have been actually- receiving from the Ribbonmen information, which we have proved to be correct. 885. Why are you satisfied that it is correct ?— It has proved itself to be correct, because we arrested the parties. 886. Have you obtained any convictions ?— Y es, we obtained a conviction at the last assizes. 887. For what offence?—For firing at the police,. Mr. MorrisReade. 22 March 1871. 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. police, and belonging to a party who visited some MorrisReade. houses at night, ordering the people to give up -some land. Upon their return from these noc- 22 March turnal visits they were intercepted, and they 1871 . fired upon the police, and the police returned the fire, and one of the parties was tried at the last Mullingar Assizes and icceived seven years’ transportation. That was entirely owing to private information. 888 . What number of people in your district are under protection ?—There are six parties under protection. 889. What kind of protection ?—Two police¬ men are constantly with them. One gentleman has two policemen attending him; a second party has two policemen in his house and also with him, and a third party has two policemen with him, and a widow has also two policemen in her house and with her. The next is the case of a farmer whose wife behaved uncommonly well and prosecuted parties, she also had two police¬ men ever since the prosecution. 890. You did not obtain a conviction in that case ?—No ; there was a failure, the jury did not agree. 891. What was the prosecution for?—There had been a man going to the house on three oc¬ casions, w r eek by week, and ordering those parties to leave the farm on pain of death. 892. That trial is to take place again; is it not?—The trial is fixed, I believe, for to-mor¬ row. Then there is another gentleman, which makes the sixth case, who has occasionally two police with him when he goes from home; and there have been some very small farmers who have been recently threatened, who hold six or eight acres of land, and they have been con¬ tinually watched by the police. 893. In their houses?—No, they have a con¬ stant system of patrol kept up day and night to protect them. 894. If they went to some distance from their homes, they would give notice to the police, I suppose?—If they were going to a distance, to a fair, they would probably call and let the police know that they would be back at such an hour, and the police would probably go to meet them. 895. Will you inform the Committee what took place upon the passing of the Peace Pre¬ servation Act ?—As far as my immediate district is concerned, there has been more crime since than before. 896. During the summer?—There were six outrages in April; that was the very month in which the Act was passed ; I include threatening letters in that number, and all that class of crime. In the month of June there were two cases; in the month of July, three; in the month of August there were six cases; in the month of September, four; in October, one ; in the month of November there were five; there were nine in December; there were seven in the following month, January 1871 ; nine in February, and five in March, that is, up to the present time. 897. Is that as bad a state of things as you have ever known there ?—It is worse than ever. 898. What steps did you endeavour to take upon the passing of the Peace Preservation Act? —I endeavoured to enforce it w r henever an op¬ portunity occurred. 899. Did you give any instructions to the constabulary? — Yes; my instructions to the police were to carry it out rigidly, but the people are quite equal to the Act. There were very few attacks immediately afterwards, while they were digesting it, but when they had digested it they remained at home after nightfall. 900. That must have stopped the visits of armed parties to some extent?—Yes, it did, because they were afraid to be out at night. 901. Did the threatening letters continue?— It did not affect them at all. 902. Did it affect the serious outrages?—There were no very serious outrages at that time; the most serious outrages were the firing upon the police, and the murder of Dowling, in 1870. 903. But except the firing upon the police and the murder of Dowling, there have been no very serious outrages since the passing of the Peace Preservation Act?—No, but there has been a vast deal of intimidation in the shape of threa¬ tening; letter writing. 904. Have you got the figures for the last 12 months before the passing of the Peace Preser¬ vation Act?—I have, from the 4th of April 1869 to the 27th of January 1870; that is almost a year. There were 13 outrages, 18 notices posted, and 26 threatening letters ; that is in the pre¬ vious year as against 26 outrages, 37 threatening letters, and five notices for last year. 905. But that last year includes part of the year, and the very bad months before the Peace Preservation Act ?—No, I am quoting from the 4th, the very day of the passing of the Act, and from that only, but the fact of the matter is, that in my neighbourhood they seek to make the compensation clause of the Land Act retrospec¬ tive, and they think that anybody who was evicted from a farm in the bad years of 1847, 1848, and 1850, be he the tenant, or the son of the tenant, who was put out at that time, should be now com¬ pensated ; that is their notion of justice. 906. Have the police in your district made any arrests under the special powers of the Peace Preservation Act?—Yes, four parties have been incarcerated under it. 907. Under what section have they been in¬ carcerated ?—Under the section which provides for people being out at night under suspicious circumstances. 908. Those parties were imprisoned by your order?—Yes, by my order, in conjunction with other magistrates sitting at the time. 909. Have any others been brought before you whom you have been unable to commit ?— Very few ; but under that section relating to strangers, some tramps have been brought up, but they were not fit cases to be brought before a magistrate, and I have discharged them. 910. Do you think that the provisions of the 23rd section have failed?—I think they have failed, inasmuch as the Bibbonmen meet the re¬ quirements of the Act by remaining at home. 911. Sir G. Grey.~\ That puts a stop to noc¬ turnal outrages, does it not? — To a certain extent it does. 912. Chairman.^ Nevertheless, although visits by armed parties have ceased to a certain extent, you still consider that the system of intimidation prevails almost, or quite as much, as formerly ? — Quite as much, and I think more. 913. Have you considered what, in your opinion, would be an effectual remedy for that state of things ?—I think that the only remedy that can be adopted is to get hold of the leaders and put them out of the way. 914. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 37 914. Do you believe that you are well ac¬ quainted with the persons in your district who are leaders ? — The police know them all. 915. And do they inform you of them?—I do not require much information from them as re¬ gains that. 916. You think that you know them?—Ido, well. 917. Do you know them in the same way as Captain Talbot says he recognised them by seeing them constantly in court? — Yes, by seeing them constantly in court, and I can tell them by their companions, &c. 918. You can tell their names and residences, I believe ?—A great number of them. 919. And you agree with Captain Talbot that the only effectual remedy would be that of incar¬ cerating those persous ?—I cannot see any other remedy whatever. 920. Is it long since you formed that opinion ? —I only declared it in 1870, but for six months previous to that I had come to the conclusion that there was nothing else for it. 921. In what way did you declare it then?—I stated it to the Government. 922. Was that a joint report made by you and Captain Talbot?—No; that was in a confidential report. I subsequently repeated that opinion in a joint report with Captain Talbot, in the sum¬ mer of last year, according to my recollection. 923. Mr. Disraeli I think I collected from your evidence that crimes of violence (I include threatening letters under that general name) have increased in your district during the last two years ?—In my portion of the county they have increased. 924. The case of Dowling of course you re¬ ported to the Government?—I report every out¬ rage to the Government. 925. It is a case which is perfectly well known ?—It is notorious. 926. It appeared in the newspapers, did it not ? —Yes, it did. 927. I think also that the case you mentioned of firing upon the police appeared in the news¬ papers?—It may have done so subsequently to the assizes, but not previously, I think. 928. And you reported, as you say, all those cases specifically, but you also reported your general views with reference to the condition of the district ?—Yes ; I did from time to time. 929. To the Government?— Yes, to the Govern¬ ment. 930. And also the remedies which you con¬ sidered would be efficacious ?—In 1866, when there were two attempts at murder, I suggested to the Government whether it would not be a prudent thing to employ mounted constabulary in connection with the infantry constabulary. 931. But in 1870 you reported your opinion that a local repeal of the Habeas Corpus Act was the most efficacious, or the only remedy in your opinion, did you not?—In my opinion I considered that that was the only remedy. 932. All which you communicated to the Government?—I did. 933. Mr. Bruen .^] Do you think that a magis¬ trate, who does his duty actively, is in great danger of being shot ?—I find it very hard to answer that question. 934. Do you think the Ribbon conspiracy would take cognisance of his having done his duty, and in that way come into collision with their power ? —It would very much depend upon 0.50. what he had done to them, so as to affect them personally. 935. And supposing that his doing of his duty had had a tendency to affect them personally, do you think that he would be in danger of their vengeance?—Do you refer to resident magis¬ trates, or to local magistrates ? 936. I should have specified the local magis¬ trates ?—I do consider it would endanger a magistrate’s position, that is to say, if he took a very active part, so active a part as to tend to inconvenience them; I do consider that in that case it would be dangerous to him. 937. Do you suppose that if he did attend at the petty sessions, and took cognisance of any of the cases that were brought up at the petty sessions against the Ribbomnen, he would incur their vengeance ?—No, I do not; it should be a very strong case indeed, I think, that they would revenge upon him ; he would have to take a very active part, and would have to be the only magistrate who attended, but if he were acting- in conjunction with others, I do not think they would visit the sin, if it might be so called, of two or three upon one head. 938. You have taken a very active part, I believe, in your district ?—I hope I do my duty. 939. Have you ever been threatened?—Some years ago I received a threatening letter, and since that time I have received hints. 940. Have you received hints that your life was in danger ?—I will not say that, but in a letter which I have received lately, they tell me not that my life was in danger, but that “ the money was paid,” and we all know what that means, and that I was to mind myself. 941. Do you think that the local magistrate incurs more danger in doing his duty in this way than the stipendiary magistrate does ?—I think it is just as bad for one as the other. 942. Sir G. Grey.~\ One is connected with the land and the other is not connected with it; there would be that difference between them?—If the magistrate were directly concerned, and the land in question in any case belonged to him, he as a magistrate should not sit upon the case at all, and I do not think he would either. 943. Mr. Bruen.~\ There is an oath or an ob¬ ligation in use by Ribbonmen now, is there not? —I am not aware of any. 944. Then you have never seen it ?—The in¬ formation tends the other way ; the impression is that there is no oath, except the swearing in oath. 945. I mean the swearing in oath; the making them swear allegiance to the Ribbon Society ?— Yes, there is an oath of that kind. 946. Have you ever seen a copy of that oath ? —I have seen the actual oath that was found in a public house in Mullingar upon one occasion. 917. That is the one the Committee have heard about?—That is the one the Committee have heard about. 948. You know of no other?—I am quite ignorant of any other. 949. Chairman .] Will you inform the Com¬ mittee what you referred to when you said that information led you to believe that there was no oath other than that?—We have been told by informers that there are no passwords and no signs now, and that their tactics have completely changed of late ; that may or may not be true. 950. Have you any idea how one Ribbonman recognises another?—I think they all know each E 3 other ; Mr. Morris Reade, 22 March 1871. 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. other ; I am satisfied that they do all know each MorrisReade. other. - 951. Mr. Bruen.] With reference to the li- 22 March censes to carry and to keep arms ; can you give the Committee an idea of how many are issued in your district ?—A red license gives the holder the privilege of carrying his arms either on his own farm or within a prescribed area ; I think that there are about 360 of such licenses issued in my district, and about 130 or 140 black ones, which enable the proprietor to keep arms in his house. 952. Does the possession of those arms give the possessor immunity from search upon his pre¬ mises ?—By no means. 953. Do the police search in the houses of per¬ sons entitled to hold arms?—They are constantly searching in my district. 954. You stated to the Committee, that more outrages have been committed since the passing of the Peace Preservation Act, than before it ?— That is including the threatening letters. 955. Do you think that that fact could be traced to any fear, on the part of the Ribbonmen Avhen the Act was actually being passed in Parlia¬ ment, and the discussions were going on that a more stringent Act was going to be passed than was actually passed ?—I do think so, for in 1866 and 1867 there were no outrages in my district, except that there Avere tAvo or three attempts to murder. 956. Sir G. Grey.'] You mean during the sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, do you not ? —Just previous to, and during the suspension of, the Habeas Corpus Act. 957. Mr. Bruen.] In fact the Ribbonmen thought that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act Avas about to be brought fonvard again ?— They did not knoAv what Avas coming; they feared it. 958. And when they found out Avhat the Act Avas their fear Avas removed ?—I should say so, certainly. 959. Mr. Dmoning.] Have you looked at the returns made to the Government with regard to agrarian crime reported by the constabulary; I refer to the printed papers?—I have had no opportunity of seeing the printed papers. 960. With reference to the crime committed in your OAvn district in Westmeath ?—I find that in the month of January 1870, there were 28 outrages in the county Westmeath; did I under¬ stand you to say that your return here was con¬ fined entirely to agrarian outrages, or Avas it general for sending threatening letters?—I stated that it included threatening- letters. 961. I find that in the year 1870 there Avere 226 cases coming under the head of offences against property and against the person ?—I can only speak for my oavii district. 962. Would you say from Avhat you knoAv of the district, that there is less crime in Westmeath noAv generally, against the person, and against property, than there Avas in the half-year ending Avith the spring assizes of 1870?-—I cannot go beyond my OAvn district, but in my own dis¬ trict there is undoubtedly more crime than there Avas. 963. Than there Avas in the half-year ending March 1870?—I have not divided it into half- years, but there is more crime in my district in the year 1870-71 than there was in 1869-70. 964. Have you any figures by Avhich you can tell the amount of crime up to March 1870?— I merely ran down the heads, and I found out the total, which tells me that there Avere 13 out¬ rages, 18 notices, and 26 threatening letters in 1869-70, and that there were 26 outrages, 37 letters, and five notices from April 1870 to the beginning of 1871. 965. You Avent aAvay in January, so that does not include the Avhole year? —No. 966. Mr. Downing.] Have you made any cal¬ culation of the number of offences which occurred up to the March Assizes of 1870 ?—Yes, I have, from the 4th of April 1869. 967. To March 1870?—No, to January 1870, I have. I was away then on duty in Mayo; there Avere 13 outrages, 18 threatening notices, and 26 threatening letters ; that Avas from the 4th of April 1869 to the 27th of January 1870. 968. Can you tell the Committee how many occurred from the month of January to the 4th of April ?—No, I could not tell that, but I re¬ member that there Avere two parties fired at while I was away. 969. Do not you knoAv, and believe, that crime has been less, though there may have been one or two aggravated cases in the period of 1870 to 1871, than during the period which you ha\ r e just gi\ r en ?—No, not in my oavii district. 970. But does that remark apply to the Avhole county ?— I have no means of knoAving Avhat it Avas in the Avhole county. / 971. Mr. Pemberton.] I should like to ask whether you see any trace of the religious element in this Ribbon conspiracy, whether those attacked belong more to one religion than the other?—INoj I think that they are quite impartial in Riat Way. 972. I think you made use of the expression, that you had been told that the money Avas paid in respect of yourself?—That Avas written to me. I was told to take care of myself. 973. Do you think that money is actually paid to the person Avho is to commit the crime?— I have no doubt that Avhat they Avanted to convey to me Avas that the money Avas paid for my assas¬ sination. 974. Mr. Russell Gurney.] Have you detec¬ tives connected with your constabulary force? — There are men in the constabulary force Avho can be made use of for detective purposes, although they are not absolutely detectives. 975. But you have not any body of men such as our detective force, have you ?—They have in Dublin. 976. Hate any of those people been sent down to Westmeath ?— Indeed, they have, from time to time. 977. During the last 12 months, have you had any of them sent down?—Not to my knowledge. 918. Are those detectives you spoke of drilled men ?—Men have come down from time to time Avho Avere drilled men, and I have heard the country people say that you ought not to drill the detectives. 979. As they are at once known as policemen? —Yes, the moment they arrive in a country vil¬ lage, the people say, “Who is that?” The coun¬ try people are better detectives than they are. 980. Yon ha\ r e not any of the ordinary detec¬ tives in Westmeath, such as Ave have in this country, have you ?—They have been employed from time to time. 981. But not within the last year?—Not that I am aivare of within the last 12 months. 982. Do you not think that it is a desirable thing SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 3p thing to have them ?—I tried it from year to year, and I never found it of the slightest use. A man comes down, and even if he is disguised as a pedlar, &c., # the people find him out directly; he is immediately known to be a stranger to the county. The Westmeath people are uncommonly sharp. 983. Mr. Plnnket.'] The longer the leaders of this system are at large the more complete be¬ comes the system of intimidation, does it not ?— I.should say that the system of intimidation in Westmeath at the present moment is quite com¬ plete. 984. Do you consider that it is spreading amongst the people ?—Do you mean by that question to ask me whether more people are joining the society ? 985. That is what I mean ?—I cannot say. 986. Are you of opinion that they are coming more under its influence?—I am satisfied that they are. 987. Do you think that that would account to some extent for their giving up the use of signs and passwords ?—I cannot assign any reason for their doing; so. 988. Mr. Gregory .] Have you any reason to think that emissaries from Ribbon lodges have penetrated to other countries ? - I have heard that while I was in Mayo men came up from Tippe¬ rary to Westmeath, but I attach no importance to that. 989. As regards the 15th section of the Act, have you found that the working of it is a serious impediment in the way of searching for threaten¬ ing letters, inasmuch as the house to be searched must be in the ownership of the writer of the threatening letter; you state how you would be prevented from searching if those documents were not in the handwriting of the person having, as the Act says, control of the house ?—There is no doubt that unless the party suspected of having written the letter is the owner of the house, you have no right to search the house under that Act; for instance, in the case of a servant having written the letter. 990. Have there been many informations taken under that section ?—There was only one infor¬ mation lodged before me in connection with that particular section to which you have referred, and that was in the case of Dowling. The police were quite aware that the man whose house was to be searched was a very litigious character, and they thought it better to be armed with a war¬ rant, and merely search the house under that warrant. 991. Have there been any cases in which an action was brought against a magistrate for causing such a search to be made ?—There was an action brought against Mr. Moroney, a resi¬ dent magistrate in Mayo, for giving a war¬ rant. 992. What was the result of that ?—The re¬ sult was that he was mulcted in 200 /. damages and costs. 993. It might constantly happen that the owner or the person having control over the house, might be unable to read and write, and that his son might be the writer, and yet you could not search the house?—We are able to search the house in the way I have described to you, but not under that section of that Act. 994. Suppose you were living in a district that was not proclaimed, and you wanted to search for threatening letters, how would you act ?—I 0.50. could not act under that Act of Parliament at all in a district that was not proclaimed. 995. You would be prevented from doing so, solely by this particular wording, that the hand¬ writing must be that of the owner or person having control over the house ?—I should be entirely precluded by the fact that that Act would not apply to the district that 1 was living in. 996. Mr. James.'] I gather from what you said that you did obtain some information from Rib- bonmen?—Yes; the constabulary obtained it. 997. Has that amount of information been upon the increase or otherwise, of late years ?— The moment we got one informer we got two more. 998. Do you find that they are obtaining more information from people generally, or that the increase is quite accidental ?—It is quite an acci¬ dental increase. 999. Did you find during the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act that there was more informa¬ tion given to you?—There was no information given at all in those days; there was very little crime to give information about. 1000 . Probably you would not know what information was given in the other districts during the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act ?—-I do not exactly. 1001 . You seem to have joined in the recom¬ mendation of Captain Talbot in April 1870, with reference to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; was that a joint report of yours and his?— No ; that was my own report. 1002 . I understood you to say that you joined with him in reporting?—I did, in the summer subsequently. 1003. After April 1870? — After the first report in April 1870, I with Captain Talbot made a joint report to the Government. 1004. You joined with him in reporting that there should be a system of watching, and that there w*as a feeling that there should be a suspen¬ sion of the Habeas Corpus Act ?—We did not suggest that to the Government as a prudent thing to do, but we threw it out for them to con¬ sider whether it was a thing worth adopting or not; it was no suggestion upon our part. 1005. Were you aware that Captain Talbot had reported that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was a strong measure, and one which he could not dare to hope would be applied?— Yes, I was aware of that. 1006. Did you join in that?—I do not know that I conveyed that by the report to the Go¬ vernment, but I entirely concurred in it. 1007. Were you aware of the opinion which General Wetherall has expressed ?—I was. 1008. And you concurred in that report in the opinion Captain Talbot had expressed ?—I think it was sometime previously that he stated that to be his opinion. 1009. Did vou know of Captain Talbot’s report in 1869?—I do not think that I read it. 1010 . 1 suppose you were aware that it was a very extreme course to take ? — I remember talking it over with Captain Talbot at the time that he made that report to his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant, and I told him at the time we spoke of it, that I did not consider the House of Commons would grant such a measure. 1011. Y ou were aware that it was a thing with¬ out precedent at the time ?.—I never heard of its before being so applied. 1012 . Mr. Serjeant Sherlock .] You have been E 4 asked Mr. MorrisReade. 22 March . 1871. 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Mr. asked about the magistrates doing their duty; do MorrisReade. you know of any instances in which a resident or -local magistrate has suffered, either in person or 22 March property, from doing his duty as a magistrate?— l8 7i. No, I do not. 1013. With regard to those letters you have produced, which appear to be emanating from the same neighbourhood, have you got any information as distinguished from evidence with reference to the authors of those letters ? — We did very recently. 1014. Was it reliable information, so far as you could judge ?—I thought that the information was reliable, but we acted upon that information, and the result was a failure. 1015. Mr. Ma,ouire.~\ I Avish you would be so good as to explain to the Committee what was the nature of the suggestion which you made to the Government with reference to watching ?— That is the suggestion which Captain Talbot stated just now, namely, to have a hut brought down to the spot. 1016. Do you mean to say that you both made the suggestion that a hut should be placed upon one particular spot?—That was the suggestion thrown out; we did not convey that with the idea of leading the Government to think that it would do any good, but failing any other measure, we thought that that might be adopted. 1017. Do you mean to say that crime is so con¬ centrated in one locality, and that the placing of the police in that iron hut would enable you to detect it ?—There is no doubt that the great lever of the whole of the crime of the county was situ¬ ated in that immediate district; and that was the object we had in view. 1018. You have been asked by the learned Recorder about the detective force ; is it a very wise thing, if you wish to have your detectives effectually disguised, to have your detectives drilled so as to give them that upright character, which they can never get rid of?—I think the more disguised a policeman can make himself in order to be a detective the better. 1019. And I daresay you would be of opinion that it would be as hard to disguise a policeman as a soldier ?—I think it is harder. 1020. Do you not think that it would be a great advantage to have detectives of such a character, that the people would not know them at once ?—I think not as far as Ribbonism goes ; they would know them any way. 1021. Do you think that a military organisation is the right organisation to deal with a secret confederacy ?—No, I do not think that. 1022. Is not the present constabulary a military organisation ?—But I do not think that they are at all equal to the emergency. 1023. Assuming that Parliament would not carry out your ideas with reference to the sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, what means would you suggest as those which would be suc¬ cessful in coping with them?—I could not suggest any other course. 1024. Therefore you would merely confine it to the ordinary policeman with his rifle and his belt?—That is the ordinary state of things that exists; I cannot suggest any improvement other than what I have stated. 1025. Are there many magistrates in the county who attend the sessions?—I am very fortunate in my district; there is a very good attendance of magistrates. 1026. And they are not afraid of attending sessions ?—They are not afraid of attending the sessions. 1027. Is there any danger to the magistrates in so doing ?—I would not say that. As I stated before, it depends upon how hard he hits these fellows. 1028. Do you not think that one magistrate would support another, so that he should not deal alone with those cases ?—I do ; I think that the fact of a number of magistrates sitting on the bench would make a great difference. I do not think that they would like to shoot the whole of them. 1029. Do you think that it would be a very unwise thing to leave the bench Avith only one magistrate upon it. Delvin Avas Ihe case that Avas stated ?—Most undoubtedly ; it is improper that it should be so, because one magistrate can¬ not legally deal Avith all the cases that are brought before him. 1030. If there is only one magistrate, or no magistrate at all sometimes, Avould it not be Avise to increase the number ?—Certainly, if you get efficient magistrates it would. 1031. With reference to juries, you stated that one case was brought to trial, and that you ob¬ tained a conviction: that Avas some time since, Avas it not?—Yes, about tAvo years ago; that Avas a threatening letter case. 1032. What Avas the character of the jury ?— It Avas a very fair jury. 1033. The evidence Avas given, and they found a verdict ?—Yes. 1034. In this case of firing at a policeman, you had evidence, had you not?—Yes, ample evi¬ dence. 1035. The jury convicted ? — It Avould have been very difficult for them not to have done so, because the sub-inspector of police got hold of the' man, and stuck to him until the rest came up. 1036. Did you have evidence ?—Yes, AA r e had evidence of that. 1037. In case there might be an apprehension that the jury could not be trusted, you know that the Attorney General under the Act has the poAver of removing the case to any other county ? —Yes. 1038. That then is also a formidable Aveapon in his hands, is it not ?—Yes ; I suppose that depends upon Avhere the venue is changed to. 1039. The court exercise that discretion, does it not?—Yes. 1039*. The judge goes to one place one year, and to another place another year, so that he must knoAv.the state of the country very well, must he not ?—Yes. V. 1040. And you Avould not be afraid to leave that to the judge, or to the discretion of the Attorney General?—Certainly not, so far as I am con¬ cerned. 1041. Colonel Wilson Patten .] Do you believe that if the Government Avere to try to put doAvn the system of Ribbonism in your district by process of laAv at the present moment, they could get any evidence that would be of any service to them ?—By Avhat process of laAv ? 1042. By any process of the existing laAv, do you think that they could get any information that would be of service to them?—I do not think that there is any existing laAv that can touch Ribbonism at all. 1043. But supposing that they Avere to have a suspicion that there Avas an unlaAvful proceed¬ ing going on at any house, do you believe that any SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 41 any person who was aware of the proceedings going on in that house dare give evidence in a court of justice with reference to the nature of those proceedings ?—There is no doubt about it; they dare not. 1044. And that is the reason why you think that we must have an alteration of the law before you can put down this society ?—I am perfectly satisfied that the existing law is entirely unable to cope with the society. . 1045. You heard the evidence of Captain Talbot with regard to the alteration which has taken place in the organisation of the system; do you agree with him that the organisation of the system is different from what it used to be ?—I have reason to believe that there have been several changes of late, and that now the parties are not threatened whom they intend to shoot, and that the process is to shoot them dead, upon the principle that dead men tell no tales. 1046. You are of opinion that the former system varied from the present system only in this par¬ ticular, that there was a sort of trial which took place formerly which does not take place now ?— I have always understood so, but I do not know it of my own knowledge. 1047. Perhaps you could not state of your own knowledge also that the only punishment awarded by Ribbonism at all times has been the sentence of death ?—It depends upon what the paity has been doing. If a man was guilty of a gross act of injustice to a tenant, and a jury of Ribbon- men sat upon him, he would be shot dead. 1048. Chairman.^ But sometimes a beating is given, is it not ?—Certainly; they mete out the punishment according to the aggravation. 1049. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland .] Are you aware that some years ago the laAV in Ireland was, that if a man shot at another, with intent to murder him, that was a capital felony?—Yes. 1050. And that there was a change made in the law in that respect ?—Yes, a change was made. 1051. Do you consider that that change was advantageous, or disadvantageous?—It was a dis¬ advantageous change; the reason that I say that is, that the intention of the man who fires at yon, and happens to miss you, is exactly the same, whether he hits you or not: it is just the hand of Providence which interferes in the latter case. 1052. Have you heard that very often in com¬ mitting outrages, an attempt has been made to injure a man, and not to kill him ?—Yes, I have heard that from an informer, in one instance ; and Captain Talbot alluded to it in the case of Welsh, in which the men were told to hit him, and not to kill him; as they called it, “ to give him some that “giving him some” merely meant to show that they wished to get him out of the farm by giving him some punishment. 1053. You have stated your opinion that the Peace Preservation Act has been thoroughly worked ?—It has been vigorously and thoroughly worked. 1054. And that all the force has been given to the clauses of the Act of which they would admit? —Yes, I know that. 1055. And that there has been no hanging back upon the part of the magistrates and justices?— There has been no hanging back; the law has been fairly and justly administered by the magis¬ trates. 1056. What is the size of your district ?—I should say that from north to south it is about 0.50/ eight miles, and from east to west I should say it is about 17 or 18. 1057. How many petty sessions courts are there in that district?—I have only three. 1058. Are they well attended by the local magistrates, as a rule?—Two of them are always well attended. 1059. You stated that there was terrorism and intimidation used to prevent evidence from being given; can you state whether that terrorism or intimidation has ever affected the local gentry in the way of doing their duty, to your knowledge ? —I cannot say whether the local gentry have been prevented by terrorism or intimidation from doing their duty. 1060. Have you heard anything about black¬ mail being paid by the local gentry ?—I have heard what Captain Talbot has described, and I have myself seen money paid. . 1061. What money?—The half-crowns I have seen paid. 1062. That is to say, the subscription, 1 pre¬ sume?—Yes, the subscription for the general expenses of the body to meet fines imposed, &c. 1063. But do you know anything about whether the gentry have paid it; Avhether they pay anything for protection ?—No, I cannot say that; the only thing I know is, that a gentleman has found recently, after the lapse of 17 or 18 years, that it was a reasonable thing to pay a man compensation for a farm from which his father had been evicted 17 or 18 years before. 1064. That was a conclusion, I presume, to which he was brought by a threatening letter ?— Certainly; he could have come to that conclusion by no other means, I think. 1065. Let me ask you another question with regard to the money which you say you saw collected; where did you see that money col¬ lected ?—T saw it handed about from hand to hand in the market. 1066. And you had reason to believe that the persons collecting this money were persons who were connected with Ribbon organisation ?—I was quite certain of it. 1067. Did you come to that conclusion from knowing them ?—I could not have come to that conclusion if I had not known them. 1068. How long have you been in the dis¬ trict ?—Between seven and eight years. 1069. Have you been cognizant of the Ribbon organisation existing there all that time ?—I was not cognizant of the leaders of it for the first three months, but with that exception I have been cognizant of the leading Ribbonmen all the time. 1070. You state that you never heard of any injury being done to a resident or local magistrate; have you ever heard that attorneys practising at the sessions have lately refused to take pro¬ ceedings against persons who were said to be members of the Ribbon organisation?—I have never heard of that. 1071. Have you ever heard whether legal gentlemen, whether members of the attorney pro¬ fession or not, have refused to be connected with cases where Ribbonmen were concerned ? — I have never heard of legal men being intimidated at all. 1072. You gave some evidence with regard to the police; you stated that you did not think the police were equal to the emergency ?—I did. 1073. You did not mean to say that any other police, or police trained in any different way, R would Mr. MorrisRcude . ■2 2 March 1871. V 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. MorruReade. 11 Marcl) 1871 . would have been more equal to the emergency ? —I consider the constabulary to be as efficient a body as you could have. 1074. I did not understand you to state that their military training had impaired their effi¬ ciency?—They are quite able to do their duty if they were only told to do so and so. 1075. They have the local knowledge ?—They have all the local knowledge that they can re¬ quire. 107G. Supposing they were more untrained men, and a body more like the parish constabu¬ lary in England, do you think they would be a more efficient body ? — I do not think they would be of any use at all in that case. 1077. Therefore, I may take it, that you think their training is necessary ?—It is absolutely ne¬ cessary. 1078. Do you know that detectives have been sent down into Westmeath within the last 12 months who were not drilled men ?—I do not know that there were, but I suspected people that I have seen. 1079. Have you seen men whom you suspected to be detectives?—Yes. 1080. Although they were not drilled men?— It was the very fact of their having been partly drilled that led me to suspect that some of them were detectives. 1081. Are you certain that they were those de¬ tectives?—I do not know whether I was right in my suspicions or not, but I believed that they were detectives. 1082. You compared the year 1869-70, with the year 1870-71 ?—I did. 1083. You stated that there was more crime in 1870-71, than there had been in 1869-70, did you not ?—I did. 1084. But in 1869-70, you omitted 2£ months of the year ?—I did 1085. During which you were away from Mayo?—Yes, I was in Mayo on special duty. 1086. During the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, you say that there was less crime in Westmeath than previously ?—There was hardly any crime during that time. 1087. Do you not think that Fenianism at that time engrossed more of the ideas of the people than Ribbonism?—I am quite sure that Fenianism at that time engrossed the whole of their ideas, and Fenianism became engrafted upon Ribbonism. 1088. Fenianism, you say, engrossed the whole of their ideas, and that then there was a partial suspension of Ribbonism?—Yes, the Ribbon- men became Fenians; they knew we had powers to take them up under the law as Fenians. 1089. The Ribbonman merged into the Fenian, you say?—He did for his own purposes, in order to gel arms, and for other purposes. 1090. When Fenianism was somewhat cowed, is it not the case that successful Ribbonism revived again directly?—It did. 1091. Do you agree with the evidence Captain Talbot gave with reference to the existence of this conspiracy in the neighbouring counties ?— From what 1 believe, and from what I have heard, I believe that it exists in Meath and West- meath, and a portion of Longford and Kings. 1092. At all events, you believe that con¬ spiracy exists in the counties of Meath, West¬ meath, and King’s County ?—I do. 1093. Do you agree with Captain Talbot’s evi¬ dence that the society is not only agrarian, but is, to a certain extent, social in its operation ?—Since the last few years it has descended from its former character of dealing with land matters, and is now extended to all matters of grievance. 1094. With reference to the extent of this con¬ spiracy, does it extend to the whole rural popula¬ tion?—It extends over the whole county, but I should say that it does not embrace the whole rural population. 1095. Does it embrace any portion of the small traders in the towns ?—I should not think that Ribbonism does embrace many of the traders in the towns, except a few of the publicans. 1096. The effect of this conspiracy is to cause intimidation and terror in the way you have described ?—Exactly. 1097. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. J I wish to ask you a question about the detectives to whom you have referred ; do you think it would be possible to do more than is done already in the way of obtaining local detectives, persons who know the county, and people who would act as detectives ? —It would be a service of such danger that I am perfectly satisfied no one would attempt it. 1098. You do not think that more could be done in that direction than is done already by the efforts of the police and the occasional procuring of private information ?—I do not think there could. 1099. So much for local detectives; now do you think that anything more could be done by bringing in strangers to act as detectives in the district ?—No ; a detective told me, about two years ago, that everything they had tried in the shape of disguise and going about amongst the people had been worked threadbare ; that was the expression a detective made use of to me. 1100 . I wish to ask you about a few figures ; this is a return of all offences committed in the county of Westmeath since the summer assizes of 1869, down to the spring assizes of 1870?— There are 173 at the foot of the first column since the last assizes. 1101 . That is the total number of offences be¬ tween the summer assizes of 1869 and the spring assizes of 1870 ?—Y'es, actually committed. 1102 . Now will you look at page 16; that is a return of the number of the same offences in the same county of Westmeath from the summer assizes of 1870 to March 1871 ; what is the figure at the foot of the first column ?—Eighty-nine, but it does not say up to what date. 1103. The date of the letter is March, is it not?—The 18th of March 1871. 1104. Now will you look at these two returns (handing the same to the Witness'). Those were the general returns reported by the constabulary in the years 1869 and 1870 respectively. Now will you look at the Westmeath column ?—I am perfectly confident that crime has increased within the last year in my own district. I may mention that my district is an exceedingly bad one. 1105. Is it the worst in the county?—It always has been ; that and Mullingar town. 1106. Sir G. Greg.~\ You have not had charge of Captain Talbot’s district since he left it in October, I believe ?—Not since he left it. 1107. In w hat number of cases has the power of closing public-houses at night, under the 24th section of the Peace Preservation Act, been acted upon in your district ?—There are only two public-houses that the Lord Lieutenant has closed in my district, and those are isolated houses in the rural districts. 1108. Have SELECT COMMITTEE OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 43 1108. Have you not thought it expedient that the power should be exercised with regard to the other public-houses?—No, I do not think it would be any check upon Ribbonism that they should be closed ; if they were in a public-house at night it would be well known to the police, and when they came out it would be the duty of the police to arrest every one of those persons for being out at night. 1109. Is it the case that meetings of Ribbon- men do not take place at public-houses at night now ?—In my district they do not. 1110 . Have there been many summary con¬ victions under the 26th section of the Act, which gives the power of summary conviction for of¬ fences of vai'ious characters?—No, there have been no cases dealt with under that section; there have been four cases of parties out at night. 1111 . What is your opinion of the police tax that is placed upon a district where an outrage has been committed?—I think it presses most unequally upon the community ; it does a great deal of harm ; it alienates friends, and does not hit the people who ought to be hit, or whom the law would endeavour to hit, as being instru¬ mental in the commission of crime. 1112. Do you agree with the opinion that Captain Talbot has expressed that it was an unequal tax ?—I have had the opinion for years that it was an unequal and an unjust tax. 1113. Chairman .] Are you of opinion that it is of no use in the way of producing evidence ? —It quite shuts out all evidence; any person who had evidence to give would certainly reserve it under the influence of this tax. 1114. Sir G. Greyf\ If it led to the detection of crime and the taking away of the police and the consequent reduction of the police tax, how would the imposition of the tax prevent the giving of evidence ?—It would appear that there was a desire upon the part of the persons affected bv the tax to get rid of it ?—There would be, most certainly, that desire upon their part. 1115. The tax might produce a desire to give evidence on the part of a witness, but it does not overcome his terror of results ?—No ; and more than that I consider that it does a great deal of harm when a man, who is a loyal man and a good subject has to pay, say 30 1. a year, for an extra police force when he is in no way concerned with the crime which occasioned the imposition of the tax. 1116. Mr. Russell Gurney .] But are there not a great many persons who pay the tax who are in a position to give some information if they were not affected by the terror of Ribbonism ?— I do not think there are a great many. 1117. Are not there cases in which it is gene¬ rally known throughout the whole district who the persons are who committed the offence ?—It may be generally known throughout a district who are the assassins, but the person who has that knowledge could never come forward and prove it in a court of justice. 1118. Is it not necessary if there is to be an extra tax for the police that it should be paid by the district where it became necessary, rather than by the country generally?—No; because one ruffian may happen to live in a certain dis¬ trict, I do not see why the whole district should be charged, a great many of the people in the district could not give information, and moreover are exceedingly poor people. 0.50. 1119. Chairman .] Do you not believe that a considerable number of those people upon whom the tax presses hardly have no sympathy with the conspiracy, and if they would come forward could give the police considerable assistance ?— There may be some people who may know who the parties are who commit an outrage, and who could give information to the police, but that would not be such information as you could use. 1120 . Is it not your opinion that, besides the people who are connected with the Ribbon society and who are sympathisers with it, there are a large number of people who though they are not connected with it will give the police no information whatever ?—If they are respectable people they have no information to give. 1121 . Is that your opinion?—I think that there are a large number of respectable farmers in Westmeath w T ho have no means at all of giving information. 1122 . Do you think that they take any means to be able to give information ?—No, they would not do so. 1123. Is it not the case that if they would act with a little courage they might assist the police to such an extent as to put the conspiracy down ? —I do not think they would be able to put the conspiracy down. That they might aid the authorities there is very little doubt. 1124. Sir G » Grey .] Are they people who could use any influence in putting an end to this conspiracy ?—When a man’s own clergyman can exercise no influence upon him I think it is a hopeless case. 1125. Have you known any case in which parties near the spot have given any assistance to the police in the apprehension of a man guilty of a serious outrage?—No, none has come under my notice. 1126. Colonel W. Patten.~\ Do you agree with Captain Talbot that the imposition of this tax has had no effect whatever in checking; crime in your district in Ireland ?—In every case that has come under my notice it has had no good effect whatever in that way. 1127. The Solicitor General for Ireland. ] Do you think if the population of Westmeath, free lrom intimidation and influenced by terror, were to act with the Government they could put down these conspiracies ?—They could not act free, because intimidation rules the county. 1128. But, after all, the intimidators are the minority ?—Be it so, but they are the strongest. I could not even say that they are in a large minority. I could not even say that, if you polled Westmeath to-morrow, the Ribbonmen would be in the minority, but I am quite satis¬ fied that they are the strongest. 1129. You judge by the effects?—Yes. 1130. Mr. Hardy .] They practically govern the county?—Yes, they practically govern the county. 1131. And there is no law that can cope with them ?—None whatever. 1132. Mr. James f\ Do you think it would be an effectual remedy, after a person is arrested under the Lord Lieutenant’s warrant, that he should be placed for a certain period under the surveillance of the police ?—Supposing the Act to be suspended, all you would have to intimate to that man would be this, if an outrage is per¬ petrated in the county when you go out, you will go in again. 1133. But I mean that a man should be F 2 placed Mr. Morris Reade. 22 March 1871 . 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. MorrisReade. 22 March 1871. placed under the observation of the police, as men in England, who have once been convicted, are placed under the observation of the police? — But there is that power at the present moment. Every one of these men is under the surveillance of the police, and has been so for years. The police have the power to enter any man’s house at any hour of the day or the night in that district of Westmeath which is pro¬ claimed. 1134. But it must be specifically to search for arms, and any man who was not likely to be searched would b e sae, would he not?—No, he would not be safe, as the police could use their discretion about that. 1135. Mr. Maguire .] Have the police con¬ stantly made such searches in the houses of the leaders of the confederacy ?—Yes, constantly; since the time that that man Dowling was mur¬ dered one man’s house has been frequently searched night and day. 1136. How many leaders would you say that there were in your district ?—If you confine the thing entirely to my district there are several. 1137. Should you say that there are 10 or 20? —There are men who live very near the border of my district that I do not include. 1138. But of the men within your district would there be half a dozen or a dozen ?—There are a dozen men who could get anything done in the way of the society that they wished. 1139. Have you searched the houses of all those men constantly ?—No, I could not say the houses of all those men, because those men, as far as I know, have done nothing at all to warrant our searching their individual houses. 1140. And yet you consider that they are the heads of all those Ribbon outrages ?—Yes; a man may be a leading member, and yet be per¬ fectly peaceable for years, and if you did search his house you would find there was nothing at all in it except what there ought to be in it; that has been the result of our searches. 1141. Do you know Mr. Seed?—He is in the neighbouring county of Meath. 1142. The Solicitor General for Ireland .] Is it not the fact that the police have not a general power of going into any man’s house and search¬ ing ?—The Lord Lieutenant’s warrant empowers the police to do so. 1143. The 13th section of the Crime and Outrage Act empowers the Lord Lieutenant to issue a warrant to search for arms in proclaimed districts; and then the 14th section is repealed by the 10th section of the Peace Preservation Act, which says that, “It shall be laAvful for any person to whom any warrant to search for and seize arms in any proclaimed district is directed, under the provisions of section 13 of the prin¬ cipal Act, and for constables and other persons acting in their aid or assistance, within the space of three months next after the date of such warrant, to enter,&c.?—Yes; but that is the Lord Lieutenant’s warrant, which every sub-inspector of a district has. 1144. Is that a general warrant?—Yes, to go into any man’s house night or day. 1145. Mi*. Russell Gurney .] You said that if a landlord was guilty of gross injustice he was shot: do you mean to confine that to cases where a landlord has been guilty of grass injustice?—I believe myself that the object of the Ribbon Society is to administer what they consider justice to men who cannot get it in any other way. 1146. What they consider justice ?—I do be¬ lieve that most firmly. 1147. If a landlord evicts a tenant for non¬ payment of rent, is that what the Ribbonmen would consider injustice?—There is no doubt that hitherto that was not considered an in¬ justice ; a man would go out and not a word would be said in his favour by any man in the county, but I think that that state of things has changed since Fenianism has become engrafted upon Ribbonism. 1148. You do not mean what other honest men when affected would consider an injustice? —No; but Ribbonmen are capable of forming a very good opinion of things in general. 1149. Mr. Plunket.] But surely it is not only the landlords who are shot?—No; there was the case of Dowling; in my opinion Ribbonism is mixed up with Fenianism, and that has altered its character very much. 1150. Viscount Sandon.~\ Are you of opinion, with Captain Talbot, that there are many valu¬ able witnesses who could throw great light upon this inquiry, who would be unable to come here without danger to their lives ?—Any person who knew a great deal about Ribbonism, and came over and told it to you and went back to West¬ meath would be in danger of his life, I think. 1151. And would there be any difference in our receiving his evidence without its being in this public way, or receiving it privately ?—That is a question between the Committee and the witness. 1152. I mean as regarded the danger to the safety of the witness?—Speaking for myself, I would rather come over here and give all my evidence publicly*, than let it leak out, in part only, as it probably would do or get into the papers in a garbled state, and let the Ribbonmen say, “ That fellow told the Committee a great deal more than we can see in the public prints.” 1153. Is it your opinion that the evidence which we should obtain from those parties would be of such a character as we could not obtain from the gentlemen who are present, or from those who will come afterwards ?—I cannot speak with reference to those who are coming, but I should think that anybody coming to speak to Ribbonism in Westmeath would tell the Com¬ mittee very much what we have told them. 1154. But. if you are informed that they have it in their power to give very special information, what would you say?—I could not form an opinion as to what they may know ; they may have men in their pay. 1155. Mr. Downing.'] Suppose a gentleman came over from Westmeath, whether his evidence was reported or not, do you not believe that the fact of his coming over as a witness would be perfectly well known in the county ?—I could not say that, but I may say that I came across a Westmeath man when I was coming here to-day, and I asked him if he was coming to give evidence, and he said that he was not, but he will get the credit of it all the same over in Westmeath, whether he did or did not, if it is known he is here. SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 45 Captain William Fitzjames Barry, is called in; and Examined. 1156. Chairman .] Will you inform the Com¬ mittee how long you have been a Magistrate ?— I was appointed to Westmeath in November 1870. 1157. Did you act as a magistrate first in Westmeath?—No, I was originally appointed in August 1857. 1158. Will you inform the Committee in what counties you have served ?—I have served in Mayo twice, and in the counties of Waterford and Roscommon, and now in Westmeath. 1159. Did you succeed Captain Talbot?— Yes. 1160. And you have now charge of the same district as Captain Talbot had?—The same. 1161. You heard Captain Talbot in evidence, which he gave the Committee of what took place up to the time of his leaving the district?—Yes. 1162. How would you describe the state of things in that district since Captain Talbot left ? —During the period since Captain Talbot left the district crime has been less, but of a more serious character than during the corresponding period of the previous year. There has been one very bad murder, tl\e murder of Mr. Waters, and some other serious outrages. 1163. But the number of offences has dimi¬ nished ?—Yes. 1164. Have you any reason for attributing that to any particular cause?—No, to no cause in particular. 1165. Have the provisions of the Peace Pre¬ servation Act been put in force ?—Fully. 1166. What provisions have you been able to act upon?—The 23rd section has been fully put into operation in reference to the arrest of per¬ sons found out at night under suspicious cir¬ cumstances. 1167. Do you recollect how many have been arrested and committed in your district? — There have been but two committals since my acquaintance with the district; there have been j several arrests. 1168. And in the case where arrests have been made and committals have not followed, what was deficient in the case ?—The circumstances were detailed by the constabulary, and on examination of the accused they were not of that suspicious character to justify the magistrates in a convic¬ tion. 1169. Were you present when those cases were heard ?—I speak altogether from my per¬ sonal experience of the cases that have been brought before myself. 1170. Do you consider that evidence of their being out on some mischief is required in order to enable you to commit a person under that sec¬ tion?—Yes, decidedly I do; there must be j evidence to prove the suspicious circumstances which are alleged. 1171. Supposing that the police bring up a man found out at night without being able to give any satisfactory account of himself, do you ' consider that you would be warranted in con¬ victing him ?—I should consider it then a case for : conviction. 1172. But, in fact, as a general rule, they have a plausible or more or less satisfactory story to tell, have they not ?—They have generally ac¬ counted to my satisfaction in the cases that have 0.50. come before me, and I have not convicted them. 1173. Have any other provisions been put in force ?—Yes ; all the public-houses in the rural districts in my district have been closed after sunset. 1174. With any good effect?—I think one very good effect has been that it has prevented parties being out at night, and from assembling at unseasonable hours in public-houses, where generally most of the mischief is concocted. 1175. Is it to the action which has been taken under the Peace Preservation Act that you attri¬ bute a diminution of crime in your district ?— No, I cannot attribute it to the operation of the Peace Preservation Act; it is probably owing more to what I should conceive to be the absence of cause among those who are the perpetrators of crime. 1176. Do you consider that a state of intimi¬ dation exists ?—Decidedly, wide-spread intimi¬ dation. 1177. And do you think that perhaps that is the reason why actual outrages are not required ? —I think that that is one of the reasons, and that the feeling of intimidation pervades all classes of society. 1178. Have threatening letters been frequent during the past year ?—Not very frequent in my district; during that period there have been some. 1179. What reason have you to think that in¬ timidation is prevalent if there have not been many outrages, and if there have not been many threatening letters? — From the extreme diffi¬ culty, amounting almost to impossibility of getting evidence where crime has been com¬ mitted, and from the personal alarm and terror which I know to prevail throughout the district. 1180. Are you aware of any cases in your district like those which Mr. Reade mentioned, where farms have remained unlet?—I do not know of any such cases. 1181. The most serious case which has hap¬ pened since you have been in the district was the murder of Mr. Waters?—Yes. 1182. In that instance did you find a great difficulty in obtaining evidence ?—There was no difficulty in obtaining evidence, but it was of a most unreliable character. 1183. Sir G. GreyC\ Were any persons arrested ?—Three were arrested. 1184. Chairman .] In the first instance, did you receive such information as enabled you to make any arrests?—The arrests of the three parties who were in custody for some weeks were made on suspicion on the night of the murder, and immediately on its occurrence. 1185. The police suspected the parties, did they not?—The police suspected the parties. 1186. Having those persons in custody, did you obtain any further information, tending to inculpate anybody?—Yes; but of a character which was not available. 1187. Could you describe to the Committee a little more fully what you mean by evidence of an unreliable character ; was it derived from informers?—Yes; and of course very contra¬ dictory ; so contradictory that it was not re¬ liable. F 3 \p Captain W. Barry. 22 March 1871. 1188. You 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain iV. Barry, 22 March 1871. 1188. You were not able to bring those per¬ sons to trial ?—No ; they were discharged, having been remanded for several weeks; some four or five weeks, I think. 1189. Have you any reason to suppose that this murder was perpetrated in connection with a Ribbon Society ?—I have strong reason to believe that it was agrarian in its character, but that the perpetrators of the crime were Ribbon- men. 1190. What circumstances led you to form that opinion?—The murdered man, who was a process-server, had served a notice of eject- meat on a person whose son was a notorious leader of the Ribbon movement, who lived in the same house with the person to be ejected, and who, in fact, Avas the very person who Avas in¬ terested in the farm. The ejectment would have been tried at the Quarter Sessions to have been held upon the 2nd of January, and the man Avho served the notice Avas murdered upon the 29th of the previous month. 1191. Mr. Hardy.'] What Avas the ground of the ejectment? — The landlord proposed to equalize the rents, and the party having re¬ fused to submit Avas served Avith an ejectment notice. 1192. Chairman.] The party having refused to pay the increased rent AA r as served Avith a notice ?—The party refused to pay the increased rent and Avas served with a notice. 1193. Sir G. Grey.] Was there sworn evi¬ dence before the magistrates against the three men? — Yes, there were several informations taken by me. 1194. What sort of persons were they that gave this evidence?—Some of the inhabitants of the toAvn and of the agricultural classes. 1195. Did they come foinvard voluntarily to give evidence ? — Not voluntarily. 1196. Were they summoned under the 13th section of the Peace Preservation Act ?—They Avere not summoned. I have never found it ne¬ cessary to put that section of the Act into opera¬ tion, inasmuch as I have invariably found that the parties, upon being asked by the constabulary or myself, have come forward and given evidence, but evidence, as I have already remarked, of an unreliable character. 1197. They give evidence knowing that they could be committed on refusing to do so ?—Yes ; they come on being asked. 1198. Do you think that they told all they kneAv ?—They stated to me on oath that they did tell all they knew, but the evidence was of a very conflicting character. 1199. Chairman .] But did their evidence give you the impression that they knew more than they said ?—In some cases. 1200. Sir G. Grey.] The magistrates, upon the whole, did not think the evidence sufficient to warrant them in committing the men for trial ?— Certainly not. 1201. Have you found the same difficulty in obtaining reliable evidence in other cases?—We have found no difficulty in getting parties to come forward, as I have before observed; but when they have been SAvorn, they have either pleaded ignorance about the transaction Avhich they Avere about to be examined upon, or they have contradicted each other so much that their evidence was unreliable. 1202. When the police first summon-witnesses to give evidence, are any depositions taken; do they state the particulars upon which they can give evidence ?—The evidence is taken by depo¬ sition. 1203. And when brought before the magis- trates, does their evidence generally agree Avith those depositions ?—They very frequently con¬ tradict themselves. 1204. Chairman.] You have heard the sugges¬ tions Avhich have been made by Captain Talbot and Mr. Reade for dealing with this organisa¬ tion ; have you any suggestions to make to the Committee Avith regard to that subject?—I quite indorse the opinions generally Avhich Avere ex¬ pressed by Captain Talbot and Mr. Reade. My opinion is that some legislative measure more stringent than the Peace Preservation Act is indispensably necessary to preserve life and pro¬ perty in that district. 1205. Is the state of things which you find in Westmeath quite distinct from anything Avith which you have been acquainted in your other districts ?—It is altogether distinct. 1206. Your other districts, including the dis¬ tricts of Mayo, Waterford, and Roscommon?— Yes, quite distinct. 1207. I suppose you have had many cases of agrarian outrage before you in Mayo and Ros¬ common ?—I had several cases of an essentially ogragrian character, but comparatively trivial, in Mayo; the people are constitutionally litigious, and in that respect differ altogether from the people of Westmeath. In Westmeath it is not the quantity, but it is the quality of the crime Avhich is committed that makes it serious; the number of cases at petty sessions proves that. Perhaps the average number of cases at my petty sessions is not more that eight or nine. 1208. But agrarian murders have been com¬ mitted in Mayo, have they not?—Not during my time. 1209. Have you ever been engaged in the in¬ vestigation of any ?—Never in Mayo. 1210. Do you think that the powers given to the constabulary by the Peace Preservation Act have been exercised to the utmost ?—I am quite satisfied of it. 1211. And they have failed, in your opinion, to check the system of intimidation ? — Com¬ pletely. 1212. Mr. Bruen.] Did you make a report to the Government upon the state of your district since you came to Westmeath?—Yes, I did. 1213. And, in that report, did you make any recommendation for more stringent measures than the Peace Preservation Act provides ?—I did. 1214. What date Avas that?—In the month of December 1870; about a month after my con¬ nection Avith that district. 1215. Chairman.] Did you succeed Captain Talbot immediately ? — Captain Talbot left in October, and I came in November. I Avas on leave at the time Avhen Captain Talbot left. My report was dated the 30th of December. 1216. Mr. Brnen.] You specified the measure which you Avould recommend for the preserva¬ tion of order, did you not?—I did. 1217. Mr. Downing.] You Avere a magistrate before that time for some years?—I have been in the commission of the peace since 1849. 1218. Have you any reason to believe that some, at least, of those cases which are reported are not exactly genuine, and perhaps never occurred; I refer particularly to these threaten- SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 47 ing letters?—I could not say that of my own knowledge. 1219. Have you heard that report?—I have heard in some very few instances in reference to threatening letters that the parties who received them had been the writers of them themselves. 1220. Are you aware of such a case as a threatening letter coming before one of the judges on circuit ?—I am. 1221. Are you aware that there was a con¬ viction for perjury at the last Cavan Assizes, against a party who swore that he was attacked at night, and had had shots fired at him ?— Yes. 1222. Then many of those cases which have been reported may really have had no existence whatever ?—It is possible. 1223. You were in the county of Mayo for some years, were you not?—Yes, over five years, at different periods and at different places. 1224. Were you there when the levies were made for extra police ?—I was not. 1225. You have heard the evidence of Captain Talbot and Mr. Heed upon that point, as to whether that system has increased or failed to detect crime ?—I quite indorse what they have said; that it has failed completely in detecting crime or in obtaining information, and that it has been that obnoxious tax which has alienated the feelings of the well-disposed, who would have een otherwise disposed to give information. 1226. You have resided in the county of Cork, have you not ?—Yes. 1227. And you are a landed proprietor there ? —Yes. 1228. And mix a good deal with the people ?— Yes. 1229. Do you find that the state of the people in Westmeath is very wretched?—Yes, very distressing indeed ; to which I attribute a great deal of the crime. 1230. Are you of opinion that the Land Bill which was passed has tended very much, and will tend very much, to the peace of the country ? —As regards the labouring class, it has in no way ameliorated their condition, but has only dispelled the hope they had entertained of being bettered by it. 1231. Are you of opinion that if the labouring population of Westmeath had better houses, better pay, and better employment, their character might be beneficially affected ?—As a remedial measure, I think that nothing would tend more to repress crime. 1232. Viscount Sandon.] Am I correct in understanding that it is your belief that we should have very many more outrages in Westmeath if the system of terrorism had not so completely succeeded, that nobody can now act contrary to the Ribbon leaders ?—I should say so. 1233. Would it be correct to say that all free¬ dom of action is at this moment at an end in Westmeath ?—Decidedly. 1234. So that between buyers and sellers, masters and servants, employers and employed, freedom of action is at an end?—Decidedly; parties are not free agents to act as they wish. 1235. Does that apply to the town as well as to the country ?—To all parts of my district. 1236. Should you be apprehensive that, sup¬ posing the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended merely locally, we might see Ribbonism burst out in some other perfectly distinct part of the country ?—I do not think there is any danger to 0.50. be apprehended of that. Ribbonism has become a chronic disease, and I think is principally con¬ fined to Westmeath, so that I do not think there would be any danger of what you suggest. 1237. lou told the Committee that it is possible that a great many of those reported outrages may have been no outrages at all; do you believe that that is the case in any large number?—Certainly not, in the large majority those cases are exceptional. 1238. Do you agree with Captain Talbot that, in many instances, there is no report of threaten¬ ing letters having been sent, that is to say, that they are sent without its coming to the know¬ ledge of the police ?—Decidedly, there are cases in which the parties consider it to be discreet to say nothing about them. 1239. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.] With regard to the murder of Mr. Waters, did you investigate the circumstances?—I did very fully, and on different occasions. 1240. Are you aware that the deceased man had a conversation with the police on the same afternoon that lie was murdered ?—I am quite aware of it. 124L. And that he detailed to them a con¬ versation which he had had with a man who had been in his company the greater portion of the day ?—Yes. 1242. And the police offered to escort him home, and he declined the escort?—He was de¬ sired not to leave that evening without calling at the barracks to obtain an escort. 1243. 1 believe lie pointed out a person who had spoken to him, and complained that he was followed by two other men?—Yes, and he ex¬ pressed his great surprise at the intimacy these men showed with him. 1244. If that conversation with the police had been capable of being given in evidence it would have led, in your opinion, to a moral certainty of these persons being apprehended ?—I think so. 1245. 1 find it has been stated that this notorious Ribbonman refused to pay an increased rent; are you aware that he did offer to pay an increased rent?—1 am not aware of that fact. 1246. Mr. Maguire.'] In your opinion, would not the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, even locally, be a very extreme measure ?—A very extreme measure. 1247. From your knowledge of the country you do not believe that Ribbonism extends be¬ yond the county of Westmeath ?—My belief is that Ribbonism is confined to the county of Westmeath. 1248. Therefore that power, if exercised by the Government, should be strictly limited to the district in which you say it exists ?—Cer¬ tainly. 1249. Will you give the Committee an idea of the wages a labourer has in your district ?— I think the agricultural labourer gets about 10*/. a day. 1250. Is not that a very low rate?—I think it is a very low rate. 1251. The market prices have increased for all the necessaries of life ; have they not?—Yes, they have. 1252. Do they pay rent for their cottages?— They pay a rent exclusively of that. 1253. And they get nothing for their labour, except the 10*7. a day?—I think not. 1254. Taking all these matters into considera¬ tion with your knowledge of the country, is not F 4 10 d. Captain )V. Barry. 2q March 1871. 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Captain W. Barry. 22 March 1871. 10 c?. a day now very nearly as little as 6d. a day would have been 20 years ago, owing to the in¬ creased price of provisions ?—I should say about that. 1255. Therefore absolutely the rate of wages is miserably low ; is it not ?-—So far as I have been able to ascertain, it is. 1256. Is that the rate of wages in that dis¬ trict alone, or does that embrace the whole county ?—I can only speak from my own know¬ ledge. 1257. Does your knowledge extend to the whole country, or is it confined to your own dis¬ trict ?—I confine my observations to my own dis¬ trict. 1258. Then we may take it 5 s. is the rate of wages in your district, and that the labourer has no other advantages ?—The wages are from 10 c?. to 1 s. a day. 1259. Mr. Hardy.) Has employment been diminished by the state of terrorism in which the county is ?—Indirectly I think it has, for I think that if a different state of things existed there would be more employment. 1260. Yesterday it was given in evidence be¬ fore this Committee that where a gentleman had been in the habit of paying 40 /. a week, he had now gone down to SI.; is that in consequence of the state of the county ?—I should attribute it solely to the state of the county. 1261. And that if the country Avere governed under an equitable system, the labourer would be benefited?—I think so. 1262. Mr. Maguire .] You have a knowledge of other parts of Ireland, except this district ?— I have. 1263. And is not the rate of AA r ages loAver in that district than generally throughout Ireland ? —I should say not for agricultural labourers. 1264. Not in the county of Cork?—I should say that you might put down the average wages of the labourers in Cork at 1 5 . a day. 1265. Colonel Wilson Patten .] In Kerry it is lower, is it not ?—I am not acquainted with Kerry. 1266. In the case which the last witness spoke of, in which three farms could not be let, that Avould not be OAving to the rate of Avages paid for labour, I presume ?—I am not aware of the cases to w r hich my brother magistrates referred. 1267. Do you agree with the last tAvo Avit- nesses A\ith regard to the reign of terror which exists in the county of Westmeath ?—Fully ; it is a matter of notoriety. 1268. Do you believe, as has been stated, that a person returning to Westmeath would be in danger of his life if he was known to have stated anything exposing the present system of Rib- bonism ?•—Mr. Reed stated it, and I quite concur with him ; but I must say that I think Id be greater by having what he known than by publishing it in 1269. The Solicitor General for Ireland .] What is the size of your district ?—There are 10 petty sessions Avithin it; it is the district as it AA’as originally appointed. 1270. You told the Committee, that several persons had been arrested under the 23rd section of the Peace Preservation Act, but that there had been very few committals ; could you give any idea of the proportion between arrests and committals ?—I should say that the cases that came before me at petty sessions, and the cases danger aa’ou the stated partially full. at the sessions, must have represented between 15 and 20; there ha\ r e been 20, I should say, and there have been tAvo cases in which I felt justified in convicting. 1271. You say that there Avere 20 arrests, and on examination they ended in two convictions ? Yes ; one got six months. 1272. In answer to the noble Lord, the Mem¬ ber for Liverpool, you stated that these Ribbon conspiracies had affected all the relations between buyer and seller and master and servant?—Yes, that is so. 1273. Does that include the tOAA'ns, and the dealings over the counter in the shops, say in the toAvn of Mullingar ?—No, I did not mean to apply it to transactions of mercantile life; I spoke about agricultural dealings. 1274. How does this Ribbon conspiracy affect the relations between buyer and seller; has it reference to the selection of persons AA 7 ith Avhom the man deals, or to the price to be paid for an article ?—I should not say that as a matter of de¬ tail ; perhaps in a transaction between a buyer and seller it may arise, but in the ordinary rela¬ tion betAveen master and servant, and as regards domestic servants, it exists. 1275. Between landlord and tenant?—Be¬ tween landlord and tenant. 1276. You Avould not say that it extends to the relation betAveen buyer and seller ?—No, I think not. 1277. Is there any such thing as exclusive dealing arising out of this conspiracy ; that a man deals more Avith one than another, or that a man gets more business by being a Ribbon- man than he would otherwise get ? — I think that there are some traders Avho have got, to a certain extent, a monopoly from the fact of their being notorious Ribbonmen, and who receive more support and custom. 1278. To what trade does that apply particu¬ larly ?■—Publicans, I should say, decidedly. 1279. Of course sjnrit-license questions come before the magistrates, do they not ?—Yes. 1280. Is there ever a spirit license refused to a man because he is a notorious Ribbonman ?— A license has been Avithdrawn from a man because he has been knoAvn to be a notorious Ribbonman; but there has been no application since I came to the district from persons Avho Avere known to the Ribbonmen. 1281. In fact, public-houses are very nume¬ rous, are they not ?—They are far too numerous. 1282. What is the population of Mullingar ?— About 5,000. 1283. What is the number of public-houses ? —Fifty-three. 1284. Sir G. Grey. ] Have you generally sat alone at petty sessions, or Avere there other ma¬ gistrates associated Avith you ?—Generally speak¬ ing, the local magistrates have attended with me. 1285. Are you aAvare at all Avhether the state of things which is described as existing in West¬ meath has affected the selling price of land ?—I rather think not; I have heard the contrary in reference to a sale which recently took place, not that it increased the price, but that the price which the property brought was conside¬ rably more than Avas expected. 1286. (To Captain Talbot.) Are you able to state to the Committee whether the state of things which Avas described as existing in West¬ meath has had an effect upon the price of land ? —I consider that it has had a considerable effect, in 49 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). in so far that nobody wished to buy land in Westmeath. 1287. In places where land has been sold, has it brought fewer years’ purchase than it would have done otherwise ?—I know of no land having been in the market at all lately. 1288. Chairman (to Captain Barry).~\ Do you know of any case in which there has been a re¬ fusal to supply Crown witnesses with shelter or food?—No, not to my knowledge. 1289. You have had no difficulty about that ? —It has not come under my observation. 1290. (To Captain Talbot.) Do you know of any case of that sort?—I know that in Mr. An- ketell’s case I could not get lodgings for the Crown witnesses, nor would the parties where they were placed cook their dinners. They gave me notice to remove them from their houses, which I had to do, and by direction of the Go¬ vernment I sent them up to Dublin; that was from Mullingar, and that was even while they were waiting for a remand. I could not get food for them; they turned them out of their houses where they were ; the parties who kept them in their houses were threatened. 1291. (To Mr. Barry.) You did not find that state of things in Mullingar, in the case of Mr. Waters’s murder?—No, I did not. 1292. Were there any witnesses who might be called Crown witnesses in that case?—No, the case had not progressed to that stage; it was a remand inquiry from time to time. 1293. Have you known that people have ob¬ jected and hesitated to be seen speaking to a policeman?—There is the greatest possible un¬ willingness to impart information, or to be seen at all speaking to a policeman. 1294. They are avoided?—Altogether. Captain IV. Barry. 22 March 1871 . 0.50. G 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. R. S. Cusack 23 Mach 1871. Thursday , 23 rd March 1871 - MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Bruen. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Downing. M r. Chichester F ortescue. Mr. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Hardy. Marquis of Hartington. The Marquis of HARTINGTON, in the Chair. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. Colonel Wilson Patten. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Plunket. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. The Solicitor General for Ireand. Mr. Ralph Smith Cusack, called in; and Examined. 1295. Chairman.~\ Will you state to the Com¬ mittee what position you hold in Ireland ?•—I am the Chairman of the Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland. 1296. And of another company, are you not ? —Also of the Royal Canal Company, which is amalgamated with the Railway Company by Act of Pai'liament. 1297. Does that railway and canal run through any part of Westmeath and Meath ?—Yes; the railway runs for 40 miles through Westmeath to the south of the county, and there is a branch of about 15 miles in length through the northern portion of the county; it runs from the 38 mile from Dublin, to say, the 78 mile. 1298. And with regard to the canal, where does that go?—The canal runs for about 20 miles through Westmeath. 1299. Do they run through any part of Meath ? —The railway does, but not the canal, except on the southern border of the county, about Enfield and Hill of Down. 1300. Do you reside in Westmeath?—No, I reside in Dublin ; my property is in the county of Meath. 1301. I believe you hold the commission of the peace for the county of Meath?—Yes, both for Dublin and Meath; I also hold the office of Clerk of the Crown and Hanaper for Ireland. 1302. How long have you been chairman of the railway ?—Upwards of five years. 1303. Have any outrages been committed on the railway in the counties of Meath or West¬ meath ?—A great many. 1304. Can you state to the Committee the number that have occurred since you have been chairman?—No; they are so very numerous; there have been constant outrages, so far as obstructing the line, and throwing stones as the train goes; I will give the Committee a few cases of which 1 have made a note if they desire it. 1305. Will you describe those cases to the Committed—In the county of Westmeath Ave had the murder of our station master at Mullin¬ gar, Mr. Anketell, that is the 50th mile from Dublin. At the 53rd mile Ave had rails remo\ r ed and a train upset. 1306. When Avas that?—All these e\ r ents Avere Avithin five yeai’s, and I think nearly all within two or three years; it is as near as can be tAVO years since Mr. Anketell Avas murdered, and the others Avere about the same time. About three years ago, at the 55th mile, Ave had rails taken up, the mail train upset, and a gentleman’s leg broken; three or four other persons Avere injured. At the 62nd mile, within the last couple of months, there Avas a man Avorking on the line Avho Avas arrested by the authorities and imprisoned for three months ; several persons were asked to take his place and others applied for the place. 1307. Colonel Wilson Patten.~] For Avhat crime Avas he taken up?—I think that it was under the Peace Preservation Act, for being out at night; I am not quite sure ; I have heard that from one of the magistrates, all those aaJio wished to fill the place Avere warned not to do so, and from that time to this Ave have never been able to get any¬ one to take his place. 1308. Sir G. Grey .] What AA r as the man? —He was a mere labouring man upon the line; the place is still vacant; no one would take it. The man is out of gaol, and he is applying to get back to the situation. 1309. Chairman.^ Are there any other cases Avhich you would wish to mention to the Com¬ mittee?—At the 64th mile Ave had a large piece of rock thrown off a bridge ; it fell upon the fire¬ man’s thigh and broke it, and he Avas laid up for a year and a half with it. 1310. Mr. Plnnkel. J Hoav long ago Avas that? —About two years ago. 1311. Chairman .] Have any of those cases been recent?—The case of that man whose place is vacant is happening at this moment; Ave can¬ not fill the place now ; he has only been out of gaol a fortnight. At the 68th mile the inspector Avas reported unfit for his Avork, and the place Avas offered by the engineer to several others, but they Avere all Avarned that they should not take it, and Ave could not get any other to take his place, and 51 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). and this inefficient man is still inspector over that portion of the line. 1312. Was the late inspector dismissed?—No, he was only reported unfit for his duty, and we wished to appoint another inspector, but the others Avere all afraid to take it, and he still holds the place, which the engineer considers he is un¬ fit for. 1313. What salary is attached to that office ? —I should think that man perhaps has a pound a week, and he has most likely a house and a garden, but that I cannot speak to exactly. 1314. What are the duties of that officer ?— He is answerable for the proper laying and main¬ tenance of the line over a certain number of miles, and the re-laying of the line, and reporting what materials may be required. 1315. Has he a considerable number of men under him ?—I should think he would haA r e per¬ haps about three lengths ; that is to say, he would have about fifteen men under him. 1316. I think you mentioned the murder of Mr. Anketell, and the injury done to one of the servants of the company ; the other cases appear to be outrages, in the nature of taking up rails or upsetting the train?—Yes, and obstructing the line ; several times stones have been put upon the line; I had a letter from our manager only this morning telling me of an attempt to upset a train in the county of Mayo the night before last. 1317. Is that also upon your line ?—Yes. 1318. Have there been any other cases in which servants of the company have been in¬ jured, beaten, or assaulted?—There have been , different cases, but I cannot fix them exactly as occurring in Westmeath ; there were some in the county of Meath. We have had a station master for several months guarded by the police. 1319. In the county of Meath ?—Yes, at Trim, the county tOAvn. 1320. Was he threatened?—Yes, he received several threatening letters. 1321. Do you wish to mention any outrages that have occurred in Meath besides that ?—Yes ; about a year and a half ago a train Avas fired at about 15 miles from Dublin, and 50 slugs were lodged in the panel of a carriage. 1322. Were there any other cases?—About five miles from that, about the same time two rails were taken out of the line. 1323. Can you trace those outrages to any cause ?—I think those two cases, the firing at the if train and the taking up of the rails, arose from the dismissal of one man who Avas a servant of the company just at that time. 1324. Are threatening letters often sent to persons in the employment of the company ?— Yes, I believe, very often. 1325. Have you ever received auy ?—No. Personally, I have been treated Avith great kind¬ ness by the people; I have never myself had anything to fear or dread from them. 1326. To whom are the threatening letters sent; to the secretary and other officials ?—No, they are generally sent to the station master. The station master I alluded to at Trim got several letters, and Mr. Anketell got several letters be¬ fore he Avas shot. Our manager got a threaten- o o ing letter ately 1327. Are the persons in your employment chiefly natives of the counties of Meath and Westmeath?—Generally they are natives of the districts in which they Avork. 1328. Have you any reason to connect those 0.50. outrages with what is known as the Ribbon conA Mr. spiracy?—I have always heard that they Avere R.S.Cusac/c. connected Avith it; that is the opin' one that I have spoken to on the ought to be Avell acquainted Avith it. 1329. Is that the opinion of the officers of your company ?—Certainly. 1330. Does the existence, or the supposed existence, of this conspiracy interfere with the management and Avorking of your line?—Very much indeed. 1331. Will you explain to the Committee in Avhat way?—I have given the Committee in¬ stances of two cases; one Avhere this man Avas arrested and sent to gaol, and whose place Avas vacant for some months, aud Ave cannot get any one to take his place; there are five men on each three miles, and if those five men had beeu put in gaol instead of the one, Ave should have found it just as difficult to get five men as Ave did the one, and Ave should have been obliged to go ou without any one to mind the line. 1332. In making any fresh appointments, you have to consider Avhether your action Avould be agreeable or disagreeable to the Ribbon Society? —I am not exactly sure Avhether that is so, but I am quite sure that a difficulty is ahvays felt in filling an appointment, unless the person selected is pleasing to the district. 1333. Are you able to manage the affairs of the company with the same independence as you would if it Avere a company in England?— Clearly not; we are not able to make arrange¬ ments in those districts which are supposed to tend to Ribbonism, as Ave are in other districts. There are some parts of our line that Ave can manage quite as easily as they can manage any line in England. 1334. Will you state Avhat is the length of your line?—It is 375 miles. 1335. And about 40 miles of that length are in Westmeath? — Forty miles exactly, I think; from the 38th to the 78th mile. 1336. What other counties do you go through ? —Through Dublin, Kildare, Meath, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, Galxvay, Mayo, and Roscommon. 1337. You have had some outrages in Mayo, have you not?—Yes, Ave have had outrages lat¬ terly in Mayo, but they have all been confined, I may say, Avithin two miles, and I think myself that that is not connected Avith Ribbonism. 1338. Have you had any outrages in any of the other counties? — No \ r ery serious outrage I think; Ave have had stone throwing at trains, but our principal outrages have been confined to Meath and Westmeath. When I say Meath, I refer only to a portion of the county of Meath ; the other side of the county is as quiet as any other part of Ireland. 1339. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland .] You refer to that portion on the side of Westmeath ? —About Trim, principally. 1340. Chairman^] When you say that you do not attribute these outrages in Mayo to Ribbon¬ ism, to Avhat do you attribute them?—From the information which I haA r e acquired, I think they have been OAving to some family feud between two branches of a family working on the line. I think one branch is anxious to get rid of an inspector Avho Avas connected with the family. I do not ti’ace that at all to Rib¬ bonism ; I think that we may get at the bottom of that in some other Avay. If Ave had removed the inspector Avhom I Avished to remove a fort- G 2 night on ot every subject Avho 23 March 1871. 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. Jt. S. Cusack. 23 March 1871. ni"lit ago, I think we should have stopped the whole thing. 1341. Have you been able to bring to justice any of the perpetrators of those outrages ?— No ; I do not remember any case, even of those which I have given to the Committee, where the offen¬ der has been brought to justice. 1342. Are they always reported immediately to the police?—Always. 1343. The police have endeavoured to discover the offender, have they not?—They have done all they possibly could, I think. 1344. But you recollect no case in which the offender has been punished ?—Not in any serious case. 1345. Sir G. Grey.) Have any arrests been made ?—Yes; in the case of Mr. Anketell the grand jury found true bills against two men. 1346. Is that the only case in which there has been an arrest?—Arrests may have been made, but the parties were discharged almost imme¬ diately, I think. 1347. Chairman .] Are you aware whether outrages have taken place upon the canal with which you are connected?—No; I think since I have been connected with the line, there has been no outrage upon the canal, although it runs parallel to the line. 1348. How do you account for that?—lac- count for it by their having a secret society among the men, and by their having been al¬ lowed for years to have all the appointments to themselves. As soon as a man dies, or goes away, the company are told who to put into his place. Those people act as a sort of police, and protect the place. 1349. Who are you told by?—The engineer tells the directors, and it comes to him through the very lowest of the staff. 1350. You state that the recommendation comes to the directors from the engineer ?—The recommendation comes to the directors from the engineer, and it comes to him from some of the subordinates. 1351. But that system of appointment was not prevalent upon the railway ?—Certainly not. 1352. Are the outrages intended to force you to adopt a similar system upon the railway ?—I think not; it is a system which could not be adopted upon the railway. 1353. Why is it adopted upon the canal and not upon the railway?—There is no fear of the canal getting out of order in the same way as the railw ay does; there is very little traffic upon it. 1354. You trace the outrages upon the railway to the dictation of the Ribbon Society ?—In Meath and Westmeath I do. 1355. Are you acquainted with any of the supposed leaders of the society?—No, I do not think I am ; I have heard their names, and the common report in Westmeath respecting them. 1356. But you have no knowledge of them yourself?—None, whatever. 1357. Are there any other facts which you wish to mention to the Committee ?—I should be very glad to give the Committee every informa¬ tion ; I do not exactly knoiv what thev may require. 1358. Mr. Disraeli. J Are you a magistrate ?— Yes, for the counties of Dublin and Meath. 1359. Not for Westmeath? — No, not for W estmeath. 1360. I suppose that you conferred with the magistrates of Westmeath upon those acts you have referred to?—Yes, frequently, all through; and in the case of Mr. Anketell I had constant intervieAvs with Captain Talbot; I was with Mr. Anketell after he was fired at, shortly before he died. 1361. There is no doubt that all these acts of violence have been made duly known to the Government ?—Certainly. 1362. You have told the Committee nothing, as I understand, which was not known to the Government?—I think not. 1363. Mr. Hardy, j W ith reference to cases of dismissal, have you had to dismiss men in the cases which you have spoken of; have you ever yielded to the demands which have been made upon you when you have been called upon to dismiss a man ?—I do not know exactly ; I am quite sure the engineer has had to take back persons who had been dismissed. 1364. Subsequently to Mr. Anketell’s case, have you known a case where a man was threat¬ ened, and where the company were called upon to dismiss him ?—I cannot call to recollection any case of that sort; I think Mr. Anketell’s case was about the commencement. 1365. Have you applied to the authorities and the Government upon the subject?—I have very often been in communication with them. 1366. Who have you applied to?—I have been in very frequent communication with Mr. Burke, the present Under Secretary, and with the previous Under Secretaries and Secretaries, and with the resident magistrates of the dis¬ trict. 1367. Have you been in communication with any of the Crown prosecutors?—Yes; I was in communication with Mr. Seed lately upon one of the very cases I mentioned; of Mr. Shaw, the station master at Trim, who was threatened there; and acting upon the suggestion of the police authorities, we made the station ball-proof, and he was guarded at the station day and night. We have recently removed him at the suggestion of the Crown solicitor. 1368. Was that suggestion given by word of mouth or in writing ? — I received a letter from Mr. Seed. 1369. Have you that letter with you ?—Yes, I have ( producing the same). That case occurred in the county of Meath, not in the county of Westmeath. This is the letter from Mr. Seed, in which he recommends me to take the man away. 1370. Will you be kind enough to read that letter ?—I will. “ My dear Cusack,—The in¬ vestigation of the case of a man of the name of William Weldon, charged with stealing coals from the railway station at Trim.” (I may tell you that I think the cause of animosity to Mr. Shaw was that he gave information to the police about some man that was found stealing coals off a cart which had left the station ; they were in the habit of doing that, I believe) “renders it im¬ perative on me to recommend to you the removal of Mr. Shaw, the station master, to some other station, as, in my opinion, and that of the Crown counsel, his personal safety will be greatly en¬ dangered should he be allowed to remain at Trim ; he has already been served with several threaten¬ ing letters threatening him with the fate of poor Anketell at Mullingar, who was murdered under precisely similar circumstances as those which now threaten the life of Shaw; he cannot stir out SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 53 out unless accompanied by two police constables, and the sub-inspector at Trim informed us that his life is in great peril. Having thus relieved myself of all responsibililty in making this com¬ munication, I must leave the matter with you to deal with it as you may think proper, but I should be wanting in my duty if I were not to report to you the high opinion which we all entertain for Mr. Shaw, whose intelligence, zeal, and high sense of duty in using every exertion in his power to discover the perpetrators of the late robberies from the Trim Station is beyond all praise; he must be an invaluable officer to any company. Believe me to be, most truly, S. Seed, Crown Solicitor.” 1371. That letter was written this mouth?— Yes, it is dated the 1st of March. 1372. In consequence of that communication, did you make any further application to the au¬ thorities?—I showed that letter to Mr. Burke, the under secretary and he advised me to act upon it ; we were anxious to have left Mr. Shaw there; he wished to stay himself, and the police authorities thought that he could not pos¬ sibly be touched; he was very much annoyed at being taken away; he thought that by remaining the perpetrators and Avriters of these threatening letters would have been discovered. 1373. Notwithstanding Mr. ShaAv’s Avillingness to remain at Trim, and encounter the danger, such as it Avas, you felt bound, from these Avarnings of the Government officer, to remove him ?—I removed him at once, because the same thing had happened at Mullingar, in the case of Mr. Anke- tell. I Avanted to remove him from the station and he Avould not leave, and he Avas shot within a week afterwards. 1374. With respect to Mr. Anketell’s murder, to what cause do you attribute his death ?—'The station at Mullingar had been very badly ma¬ naged before he Avent there; everything had got into loose order, and the porters and the people were allowed to do what they liked; he Avas picked out as a first-rate station master to go there, and I think he got some of the porters removed ; and there Avas a great feeling raised against him. 1375. In fact, in both cases, it Avas because the station masters did their duty that they Avere threatened, and one suffered death and the other AA r as removed ?—Certainly, this man I refer to informed me that he found the people stealing coals. 1376. Mr. Bruen.~\ Have you reason to believe that if the same system of stealing Avhich was carried on at Trim Station was still carried on, and the new station master Avas to interfere in the same Avay, his life Avould also be in danger ?— I judge from the other case that he Avould be very likely to get into trouble too if he gave informa¬ tion about these cases. 1377. So, in fact, you believe that system strikes at the very root of all authority on the part of the raihvay company?—Unquestionably it does in the case of those two counties I have alluded to, W estmeath and part of Meath. 1378. Mr. Downing .] As far as I gather from your evidence, there is only one case that has oc¬ curred Avithin a recent period, and that was the case of a man Avho was sent to gaol for a feAV months?—No, excuse me; this case of Mr. ShaAV occurred Avithin the last few davs. 1379. But except that case there has been no other recently, has there ?—There Avas the case where the man was sent to gaol and the case of 0.50. the inspector, AAdiom Ave cannot get rid of, and Avhose inefficiency is going on at this moment, because he is doing a duty he ought not to be doing. 1380. The other cases, I think, you stated occurred about three years ago ?—I think they are all Avithin three years. Mr. Anketell’s murder Avas about two years ago. It Avas exactly this month tAvo years. 1381. At the time these cases severally oc¬ curred, did you make a report to the police ?— The police heard of them before I heard of them myself in most of the cases. 1382. You state that you hold the appointment of clerk to the Crown and clerk to the Hanaper ? —Yes, I do. 1383. That is an appointment derived from the Ministry of the day ?—It is. 1384. When were you appointed?—I Avas ap¬ pointed by the Government of Lord Derby, in 1858. 1385. Are you not aAvare that similar cases to those you have just described have occurred upon the raihvays in some of the most peaceable counties in Ireland ?—Not upon the raihvays. 1386. Are you not aware that, in the county of Cork, which is a remarkably quiet county, there have been similar cases of injury to the per¬ manent way and cases of stones being throAvn at the trains?—Yes, I frequently see stone throAV- ing. 1387. And you told the Committee that there were stones placed upon the railway in other counties besides Westmeath?—In Mayo, I stated that there had been cases. 1388. And probably in Longford? — Stone throwing has been prevalent, but not cases of stones being placed upon the line. 1389. There was one case in which you said a large stone Avas thrown from a bridge, Avhich fell upon the fireman ?—It struck the fireman of the engine upon the thigh and shattered the bone of the leg ; that was a large stone landed off the top of an iron bridge ; I thought it might have been a coping stone, but it Avas not; it came from an iron bridge, and it must have been brought there and landed doAvn. 1390. Was there any proof that that Avas thrown ?—The man was seen throwing it. 1391. You stated that the inspector had under him 15 men?—I stated that as my belief; I believe that is about the number. 1392. And that he had considerable duties to perform; a number of miles of line to look after and see that everything Avas in order ?—Yes; he would have the care of a certain number of miles of line. 1393. Let me ask you, has there not been a re¬ monstrance made with regard to the amount of remuneration the people Avorking upon the line received?—Never; our Avages are very fair indeed. 1394. No complaint has been made to your company ?—None whatever. I am talking now of the labouring class; of course, the clerks may ask occasionally for higher Avages, but from the time I have been chairman, up to this time, there has been no complaint among the labouring men about Avages, and Ave can always get plenty of men. 1395. Personally you have always received courtesy and kindness at the hands of the people ? —Very great; I should not be afraid to go amongst them at any time. G 3 1396. Holding Mr. II. S. Cusack, ■23 March 1871. 54 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 1396. Holding the important offices that you do, and being a magistrate for two counties, and clerk to the Crown and Hanaper, can you give the Committee any advice with reference to putting an end to these outrages ?—I cannot con¬ ceive anything, except the arrest and imprison¬ ment of the leaders if they are known to the authorities, as I have alwavs understood they are ; public report states that the leaders of the society are known, and if that is the case, I see gaol. 1397. Have you any reason, from any evidence that you can rely upon, to say that those leaders which you refer to are connected with any of the outrages that have occurred upon your line ?— No, I cannot, I do not know that they are. 1398. Viscount Savd n. ] With regard to the strange system of appointment which prevails upon the canal, have you reason to suppose that that is supported by the Ribbon conspiracy ?—I do not say it is caused by the Ribbon conspiracy, because I think it existed for a long time before my time, but it certainly has the effect of keeping us all quiet upon the canal. 1399. You have no reason for connecting that with the Ribbon conspiracy?—No, I have not. 1400. Have you any reason to suppose that the men themselves are Ribbonmen?—No, I have not. 1401. Then, with respect to your railway officials in the district of Westmeath, do you sup¬ pose that all of them, or nearly all of them, belong to the Ribbon conspiracy?—No, I should be sorry to think so. 1402. Will you mention to the Committee what class of officials it is that you believe are connected with the Ribbon conspiracy?—I should think that, it is the lower class, mostly the labouring class. 1403. Those who are concerned with the main¬ tenance of the permanent way?—Yes, I think some of them; a good many of them must be from the outrages that have occurred, and from the difficulty of acquiring information respecting them. 1404. Have you reason to suppose that the removal of this system of terrorism would be acceptable to the people in your district gene¬ rally ?—I think it would. 1405. What reason have you for supposing so ? —I think the men themselves, from conversations I have had with them when outrages have occurred, would wish that something were done to put a stop to it. The Board adopted the system a few years ago (I met the men at the time myself in the county and spoke to them about it), of reducing their pay whenever an out¬ rage occurred. At that time I went down myself and assembled those men, and spoke to them. 1406. Do vou gather from that that the men were weary of the system ?—I think so. 1407. Did you give any special instructions with regard to the supplying the station master’s place at Trim ?—No ; his place is not supplied at present; there is merely what is called a relief clerk there, a man who goes about supplying the place of the station masters wdio are sick, or away on leave, or for other causes. 1408. Do you think there will be any difficulty in filling up the place ?—No ; because I told the manager to offer '.t to one of our station masters, who is a sturdy, determined fellow, and he has accepted the place. 1409. Mr. Plunket .] Will you inform the Com¬ mittee what wages your labourers get?—The labourers get 10 s. a week, what we call standing wages, that is, wet or dry ; and if they are unwell, or absent from any fair cause, or meet with any accident, they are paid just the same. In addi¬ tion to that, many of them have houses and gar¬ dens upon the banks along the line. 1410. To whom do you say you showed that letter in which Mr. Seed relieves himself from all the responsibility ?—I showed it to Mr. Burke, the Under Secretary. 1411. At the castle of Dublin?—Yes. 1412. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock .] In reference to this patronage on the canal, you are aware that there is another canal which flows through part of the county of Westmeath, the Grand Canal ? —Yes, the Grand Canal flows through a part of the county of Westmeath. 1413. Do you happen to know whether the same system prevails in the management of that canal?—No; I never made any inquiries about that. 1414. But this system has been going on for a great many years, has it not?—Yes; long before my time. 1415. Did you report the circumstances to the Government with reference to the canal ?—No, I do not think I ever did. 1416. Mr. Maguire .] You say that the wages on the railway are 10 s. a week, do you not?— There are five men in each gang; four of them get 10a week, and the fifth gets 13 s. 6 cl. 1417. And they have other advantages besides? —A great many of them have houses, and a much larger number still have bits of the banks of the line for gardens. 1418. So far as your knowledge extends, what is your idea of the average wage of the agricul¬ tural labourer in those districts?—I think it is scarcely so much as that, and this is better than 10 s. where the days would be broken, and where they would lose wet days; we pay them wet or dry. 1419. I am talking of ordinary agricultural labourers; what is their condition in general; is it good or bad, or has it improved of late ?—I think it has improved of late; in most parts I think it is difficult to get labourers. 1420. Then how can you account for the wages being so low as 10 rf. or a 1 s. a day, as the Committee heard it stated yesterday ?— I do not know any case of their being so low as that. 1421. If those statements were perfectly ac¬ curate, do you not think that this is a deplorable state of things ?—I do not think men could live on it in Ireland. 1422. Assuming the statements made yesterday by Captain Talbot, Mr. Reade, and Captain Barry to be true, is not that rather a lamentable state of things?—I think so; I do not think the men could live on it at the present rate of pro¬ visions. 1423. Have you ever given your consideration to this question, whether if the Government and Parliament adopted what w r e term restrictive or prohibitory measures upon the one hand, it would not be well to think of some remedial measures upon the other hand, for the purpose of raising the general condition of the agricultural popula¬ tion and of the labouring classes?—I think it would be most desirable it any system could be adopted to raise them from the position in which they are to a better one. 1424. On all other parts of the line, do you find SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). find any more difficulty in carrying on your business than directors of other railways do in other parts of the world?—I think none what¬ ever ; we occasionrdly may have a difficulty, but on a large system I suppose they have troubles in all places; I think we get on as fairly as could be expected. 1425. Do you find the railway servants gene¬ rally obedient and prompt?—Yes, they are. 1426. You have not had many accidents, I be¬ lieve?—Very few. 1427. Generally the men are reliable ?— Quite so. 1428. Colonel Wilson Patten .] With regard to the difficulty of obtaining labourers, does that observation apply to Westmeath as well as to the other counties ? — I think we have not much difficulty, because the men come to us in prefer¬ ence to others, as they are certain of getting employment. I know that in' the harvest time in Meath, where my own property is, it is very difficult for farmers to get labourers. 1429. But in the average time of year is that the case?—There may be some localities thickly populated, and where there is more labour to be had, but I think, generally speaking, the people are fairly employed in those two counties. 1430. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland .] You have told the Committee that you were clerk to the Crown and Hanaper ?—I have. 1431. Yon have no official connection in con¬ sequence of holding that office, with crime and its detection?—None whatever. 1432. The term Clerk of the Crown means what ?—It is Clerk of the Crown in Chancery ; it is my duty to issue the writs for the Members of Parliament, and so on. 1433. You have no connection with crime, or the administration of justice in respect of that fY* r\ \t ° L office ?—N one whatever. 1434. Your evidence is derived entirely from your general knowledge as a gentleman connected with the country and as chairman of the Midland Railway Company ?—Exactly. 1435. How long have you been chairman of the Midland Railway Company ?—Upwards of five years. 1436. And during all that time this system of appointments upon the canal which you have de¬ scribed, has been going on ?—Yes ; and, as I un¬ derstand, long before my time. 1437. At all events during your time ?—Cer¬ tainly. 1438. And during all your time, those five years, this system of outrages upon the railway has being going on, is that so?—No; I do not say that, I think three years Avould cover that. 1439. That is to say, three years back from the present time ?•—Three years back from the pre¬ sent time. 1440. Of course your brother directors are aware of that system of appointment upon the canal ?—They are. 1441. And you think it works well?—-I think we have no alternative, it works very well; they take care of the canal for us. 1442. And if that system were not adopted, you would be afraid of outrages upon the canal ?— I certainly thought it was not a sound system, and I was anxious to change it, but I was told you must appoint such-and-such men; there is no alternative. The reason I wish to change it is that they named a man who had been dismissed upon a former occasion; I objected to his 0.50. 55 appointment, but the engineer said, you must appoint this man, or you will have the canal over the country. 1443. I suppose they could cut the canal in the night Avithout any difficulty, if they choose ? —Yes ; they might cut the canal; the man could ruin us in a night, so that we could not pay a dividend. 1444. Have you any idea how long that system has being going on ?—I understand that it has been going on for a great many years. 1445. Would you say that it has been going on 10years?—I would say that it has been going on 20 years before the railway was established. 1446. Was it going on before the railway was made ?—The railway is about 20 years old; I think it is very probable that it was. 1447. And I believe I am right in saying that for a great number of miles the railway runs along the canal bank practically, that is to say, they run in parallel lines?—Yes; they run for 60 miles off and on nearly parallel. 1448. I suppose you apprehend that if that system were altered upon the canal, and any injury was done to the canal, injury would also be done to the railway ?—It is quite possible ; I should not like to alter the system, it would be a very great risk and responsibility. 1449. You told the Committee that there was a part of Meath that was peaceable and well disposed ? — Certainly ; my own property is in Meath, and it is peaceable. I would as soon be there in the middle of the night as in Sackville- street; it is a very small portion that is disturbed just along the line of railway towards Trim. 1450. Is that the side of Meath that lies to¬ wards Westmeath?—Yes. 1451. The adjoining part to Westmeath, is it not ?—Yes. 1452. J)o you know anything at all about King’s County ?—No, I do not. 1453. There is no part of your railway which runs near that I believe ?—It runs near. 1454. But not through King’s County?—No, I do not think we touch it at all. 1455. You say with respect to Mr. Anketell, that'before Mr. Anketell’s murder, I think about a week before, there had been a recommendation that he should be removed ?—Mr. Anketell had got three or four threatening letters, and I have several times during a period which extended perhaps over two months, advised him to leave, and about 10 days before he was shot he received a threatening letter to tell him that he would be shot the next week ; I was going to London, and I sent for him and told him that I strong Iv ad- i. j vised him to be removed from Mullingar, but he declined to leave. 1456. Sir G. Greyl\ To go to another station I presume ?—To go to another station. 1457. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland .] It was acting upon that, having that, in your mind in connection with Mr. Seed’s letter, that you took the pi’oceedings you did in connection with Mr. Shaw ?—Certainly ; I did not think however that Mr. Seed was right; I do not think Mr. Shaw would have been shot, and I do not think he thought so himself. 1458. You did not think that there was any danger that he would have been shot ?—I do not think so; he was in a ball-proof house guarded by the police. 1459. But he would occasionally, I suppose, G 4 £.<> Mr. i. S. Cusack. 23 March 1871. 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. go out of that house ?—But the police were R. S. Cusack, always with him. - 1460. Do you not believe that Mr. Seed gave 23 March you that advice perfectly bond fide? — Cer- iSy 1 * tainly. 1461. Do you know Mr. Seed?—I know him perfectly well. 1462. You know that he has been many years Crown Solicitor for the counties of Meath and Ivildare ?—I am certain that Mr. Seed believed everything that he wrote to me. 1463. And had good and valid reasons for the opinion he gave ?—I am sure he had. 1464. When did you get that letter from Mr. Seed?—It bears date the 1st of March ; I pre¬ sume I got it upon the 2 nd of March. 1465. Mr. Seed is the Crown Solicitor, is he not ?—Yes. 1466. Are you aware that that is a permanent appointment ?—Yes. 1467. It does not go out with the Govern¬ ment ?—No. 1468. He is a perfectly independent man ?— He has nothing to say to the Government; I am sure he wrote that letter on his own account and perfectly bond fide. 1469. He did not write it on account of directions received from the Castle ?—I am quite sure of that, the letter bears that upon the face of it. I have known Mr. Seed for years, and he writes to me as a friend giving me friendly advice, and I thought it right to act upon it. 1470. Mr. Chichester Fortes cue. ] Did I under¬ stand you to say that you did not consider the state of things prevailing amongst the men employed upon the canal had anything to do with Ribbonism ?—I could not say that I think the question which was put to me was whether I could connect it with Ribbonism, and I could not say that I could ; I had no reason to say that it was conneded with Ribbonism. 1471. Then why do you connect the outrages which have been committed upon the railway with Ribbonism ?—From conversations which I have had with resident magistrates and the police authorities; they say they have traced them all through to Ribbonism. 1472. But you say you think that the no¬ torious existence of Ribbonism in the district has nothing to do with the state of things that pre¬ vailed upon the canal ?—I dare say it may strengthen their hands in carrying these things out. 1473. Is not Ribbonism constantly made use of for the purposes of gratifying and carrying out private vengeance ?—I believe it is. 1474. That may have been said to be the fact in Mr. Anketell’s case ?—I think so. 1475. Have you been long acquainted with Westmeath and the neighbouring district ?— With Meath I have for many years, but with Westmeath I have not been very much acquainted except since I became chairman of the line five years ago. 1476. Are you aware that Ribbonism has been for a good many years deeply rooted in that district?—I could not say that from my own knowledge. 1477. You could not go back beyond five years ? —No. 1478. You of course took a deep and painful interest in the case of Mr. Anketell; have you any reason to be dissatisfied with the course taken by the authorities and the Government in endeavouring to bring the guilty parties to justice in that case?—None whatever; I think that, every thing that could have been done was done; 1 think that Captain Talbot, who was the resident magistrate there, used every exertion, and the police authorities did the same ; nothing more could possibly have been done. 1479. And I believe you yourself were in frequent communication with Mr. Burke and the authorities in Dublin ?—I was in communication with whoever was there ; I do not think Mr. Burke was there at the time, but I was in constant communication with Captain Talbot; I constantly met him in Dublin, and I repeat that I do not think that anything more could have been done than was done. 1480. A true bill was found against two men I believe ?—A true bill was found against two men by the grand jury of Westmeath. 1481. But sufficient evidence could not be found to put those men on trial ?—That was so. In the opinion of the law officers it was not prudent to put them upon their trial, and they were let out. 1482. Are you able to give the Committee any information from your own knowledge, with re¬ ference to the state of the other parts of the country through which your line runs at this moment, as compared with what it was, we will say a year, or a year and a-half ago ; take Mayo, for instance, or the other portions of Meath ?—If I except that small portion of Mayo that I alluded to in a previous part of my examination, I would say that there is no difference, nor increase of crime in the last year. 1483. But you are probably aware that Mayo was in a very disturbed state in the winter of the year 1869-70?—Yes, I am. 1484. Is it in a disturbed state now?—I should say that it was in a disturbed state now, from the case of Mr. Crotty, who was fired at the other day. 1485. 1 want to ascertain whether you know, from your own knowledge of these parts of the country, that they are much more free from outrage now than they were a year or a year and a-half ago ?—I think those parts of the country through which our line runs are very free from outrage. 1486. Sir G. Grey.'] Have you found that persons employed upon the line have been un¬ willing to give assistance in the case of the out¬ rages you have described, either in repairing the injury done, or in assisting to discover the perpe¬ trators of them ?—We have not discovered much from them, but I should be sorry to say that they have been unwilling to give information. 1487. Have the persons in your employment in the neighbourhood of the outrage shown any sympathy with the outrage committed, or on the contrary, with the company that employed them ? —I could not say that they have shown any sym¬ pathy one way r or the other. 1488. Is it your practice to reduce the pay of persons working on the line in the neighbourhood of the place where an outrage has been com¬ mitted ?—Yes, it is. I have the notice Avith me that we issued upon that point; it is signed by myself; the engineer did not like to sign it himself, as lie thought it might bring him into trouble. “ That with a view to mark the dis¬ pleasure of the board of directors at the frequent undiscovered SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 57 undiscovered outrages that have been committed by the placing of stones and other obstructions on the line, the engineer has received positive orders that the wages of all permanent way men employed by the company on the length where anv such outrage occurs, and on each of the ad- joining lengths, shall be reduced from 10 s. to 9 5. per week for 12 months following the date of the outrage, unless in the meantime such evidence is given as may lead to the discovery of the party or parties who committed the outrage, in which case the ordinary rate of wages, 10.*. per week, will be resumed. Gangers’ wages will be also reduced 1 s. 6 d. per week.” That is dated the 6th of August 1868. 1489. Did that have any effect?—It has had a very good effect. 1490. How often have vouhad to enforce that %> notice by the reduction of wages, in consequence of any outrage upon the line?—Immediately after it was issued it was enforced twice, and from that period up to a very recent date we never had to enforce it, until the outrage of which I spoke in Mayo. 1491. You think that the enforcing of that rule has had a beneficial effect in the prevention of outrages otherwise likely to be committed ?— Yes, I do. 1492. In the event of the police tax being im¬ posed upon a district where an outrage has been committed, does the railway company con¬ tribute to the special tax for the district it passes through?—Yes; we have been very heavily taxed; we have to pay a large quota. 1493. Have you formed any opinion of the effect of that tax ?—I think if it was a house tax you would have more people anxious to detect crime, and not to be oppressed with the tax. 1494. Was that notice which you read just now, given in consequence of recent outrages upon the line?—Yes; after putting stones upon the line, I think it was, and after one of those cases where the rails had been taken up; it was in consequence of some outrage that had oc¬ curred, perhaps, the week before that. 1495. Mr. Mas,uire.~\ You state that you are in favour of a house tax upon this ground, that a tax upon land is liable to affect innocent people. Now, with reference to a house tax, would it not be just as liable to affect innocent people as a tax upon land ?—Of course, there is no doubt that a good many innocent people would be affected, but I think the more people in a district you can make feel the penalty of an outrage the better, and the more you make them interested in put¬ ting a stop to outrages the better. 1496. But, at the same time, innocent people would be unjustly affected by it ?—They would be affected by it, no matter how the tax is im¬ posed. I cannot conceive any plan of taxation by which some innocent peojile would not be affected. 149^. Mr. Serjeant Sherlockf The railway company would not be subject to the house tax you propose, would it?—That never struck me ; but our buildings are, of course, houses to a cer¬ tain extent. 1498. Chairman.~\ Have you ever investigated yourself any of those cases of outrage that hap¬ pened upon the line?—Yes; the board have investigated them, but we failed to get informa¬ tion. 1499. Have you found a difficulty in obtaining information, and a reluctance upon the part of people to give evidence ?—As a general rule they all say that they know nothing about it. 1500. Have you had reason to suppose that some of the men must have known something about some of these cases ?—Yes, I do think so. 1501. When a serious outrage occurs, it is put into the hands of the police, is it not ?—Yes; in every case, serious or not, the police get informa¬ tion of it. 1502. And the investigation is - conducted by them, I presume, and not by you or any of your officers?—It is conducted by the resident magis¬ trate and by the police. 1503. In Mr. Anketell’s case, was any protec¬ tion asked for, for Mr. Anketell after the receipt of the threatening letter ?—No, I think not; be¬ cause it was in the county town, and there was plenty of police and military there. 1504. Did Mr. Anketell report having received threatening letters to you ?—The resident magis¬ trate was quite aware of everything. 1505. Captain Talbot stated that neither Mr. Anketell nor any of the servants of the company made any official complaint; can you say why that was ?—I cannot recollect at present; but I was under the impression all through that Cap¬ tain Talbot was in fact aware that Mr. Anketell was a marked man. 1506. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.^ Were you in the Court of Exchequer at all during the trial of Gogherty against the “ Daily Express ” for libel?—No, I was not. 1507. Did it not appear at that trial that Mr. Anketell Avas said to have told people in the town of Mullingar, amongst others, Doctor-, that his life had been threatened, and that he would be shot ?—The doctor you allude to told me himself when M r. Anketell was dying that he was not surprised that he had been fired at. 1508. Just one question with reference to the document that you have read in answer to a ques¬ tion by the Iiight honourable Member for Morpeth, dated the 6th of August 1868 ; is that the date of it ?—Yes. 1509. I suppose that was issued in consequence of preceding outrages ?—I think it was issued in consequence of a rail being taken up at the 62nd mile. 1510. An outrage upon the railway?—Yes, an outrage immediately before this notice was issued. Mr. George Augustus Rochfort Boyd, called in; and Examined. 1511. Chairman .] You were a member of the grand jury, were you not, at the late assizes for Westmeath ?—Yes. 1512. Were you requested by the grand jury to state their views to the Government upon this Committee ?—Not exactly; I was commissioned 0.50. by several members of the grand jury after the telegram, which was sent informing your Lord- ship of the resolution which was come to by them, to communicate with as many as I could in the House with regard to the subject matter of that resolution. H 1513. Is Mr. R. S. Co sack. 23 March 1871. Mr. Rock for l Boyd. 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M r. Rochfort Boyd, 23 March 1871. 1513. Is there any statement which you wish to make to the Committee with regard to the state of Westmeath; is there any addition that you wish to make to that resolution with refer¬ ence to the existing state of things in West¬ meath, and as regards the Ribbon Society ?— The Ribbon Society has grown, no doubt, very much in power and intensity, and in the certainty of its action with regard to outrage within some years past. 1514. Within what time should you say?—I should say within 10 or 15 years. 1515. How long have you been acquainted with Westmeath ?—I have been since I came of age deputy lieutenant and magistrate of the county ; for 32 or 33 years. 1516. Have you resided there constantly?— Not constantly, for I have a residence in England as well, but I should say that for three-quarters of my time I reside there. 1517. Has Ribbonism existed during the whole of the time?—Certainly. 1518. But you state that it has become more intense during the last 10 or 15 years?—Yes. 1519. Has that been without intermission or with periods of intermission during those years ? —If you speak or judge of intermission by the absence of outrage, yes, but if you speak of the organisation, no. 1520. Do you believe that even where outrages have not been frequent, the organisation has still existed ?—Certainly. 1521. Upon what facts do you form that opinion ? —With regard to the cessation of out¬ rage when the Coercion Bill, as they called it, was brought in, or rather before it was brought in, the impression prevailing all over the county was that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would be carried out. 1522. What Bill are you referring to?—The Peace Preservation Act, but we call it the Coer¬ cion Bill. There was an impression that power to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act would be taken in conformity with the recommendation of a very large magistrates meeting, which was held shortly before in Westmeath. 1523. What is the date of that meeting ?—The 24th of March 1869. 1524. Have you a copy of the recommenda¬ tion ?—I have a copy ; I was deputed to send a copy to Lord Spencer, and I did so, and I chanced to have a copy of my letter, but I have no other document than a copy of the letter and the resolutions which I sent forward. I have the resolutions in the room. 1525. It was not a meeting of the grand jury, but a meeting of the magistrates, 1 believe ? —It was a meeting convened just after the murder of Mr. Anketell, the station master. 1526. By whom ?—By the Vice Lieutenant, who is now dead, Lord Castlemaine, and the meeting was attended, I think, by every magis¬ trate usually resident in the county, with the exception perhaps of four or five, who are either absent from illness, or temporarily absent upon the continent. 1527. Sir G. Grey.~] Do you include also the stipendiary magistrates ?—No, we deny the right of the stipendiary magistrates to attend any meetings of that sort. It is hardly necessary to read my letter to Sir Edward Wetherall, but the recommendations Or suggestions, as they are called, are more important. 1528. Chairman.~\ V r e should be glad if you would read such portions of the letter as relate to this matter ?—It is a private letter to Sir Edward Wetherall, dated 27th March 1869. “ Dear Sir Edward Wetherall,—I enclose copy of the principal resolutions passed at the meeting of magistrates on the 24th instant, in order that his Excellency may have some previous knowledge of them before he receives the de¬ putation on Wednesday next.” 1529. Will you now read the suggestion?— First, to extend the laws which authorise com¬ pensation for malicious injuries to property to compensation for malicious injuries to the person. 2. Compensation to be levied by a house tax from all classes of occupiers in the district con¬ cerned, and to be collected specially by the police. 3. That the executive ought to have the power at once extended to it of enabling the magistrates and constabulary of any district upon requisition setting forth the necessity of the case, after information on oath, to search all suspected places at any time for arms (whether license has been given to the parties or not) as w r ell as for documents that might lead to the detection of any conspiracy to intimidate or murder; and that the executive should have power to arrest parties strongly suspected of participation in such crimes under the warrant of the Lord Lieutenant, with¬ out relief of Habeas Corpus. 4. That a detective force for the several districts be organised ; such a force having been found available in the Fenian conspiracy; and further, that resident magis¬ trates should be entrusted with funds for the purpose of acquiring information of intended as well as perpetrated crime. 5. That when extra police are sent down to any district in conse¬ quence of outrage, the rate charged for them should be levied in the same way as we have suggested for compensation for injuries to the person. The above resolutions were unanimously passed at a meeting of magistrates held in the court-house, Mullingar, on Wednesday, 24th March 1869.” 1530. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.^ How many magistrates w r ere there present at that meeting ? —1 cannot recollect exactly, but there were over 40. 1531. Chairman. J Do you wish to make any observations on those resolutions to the Com¬ mittee ?—I look upon the area or the incidence of the taxation to be so faulty and so wrong as at the present moment to estrange the feelings and the loyalty of those who ought to be our best men, that is to say, the independent farmers of the country. It is within my knowledge now, for example, that at the present moment, from the taxes recently laid on certain districts for murder committed and other outrages, there are some of the best conducted men in my county becoming fast reduced in circumstances, and if it goes on they will be utterly smashed ; while those escape with impunity who are in point of fact the concoctors and the executors of the mischief which is perpetrated. 1532. Do you refer to the police tax or the compensation for injury?—I refer to both. I know one farmer close to me who has the bad luck to live in the townland close to Ballinagore, where Mr. Perry’s timekeeper was shot recently; that man told me the other day that his current tax was over 50/., that he has been hooked in for 59 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMDINATIONS).- for all the taxes in that unfortunate district in which he lives. 1533. Sir G. Grey.] The proposal was to sub¬ stitute for the present tax a house tax if I under¬ stand you rightly ?—Precisely ; I may mention that my own personal rate, my murder rate as I call it, will be over 19/. this half-year. 1534. What will that be for?—For the mur¬ der that I alluded to of the man Dowling, the timekeeper in the mill. 1535. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.] In conse¬ quence of the compensation given to the widow by the grand jury?—Yes; in consequence of the compensation given to her by the grand jury. That is a barony tax; we wished to circumscribe it, but we could not circumscribe it, knowing that the money compensation was 800/., and if it had been circumscribed by the limits that we thought, in one sense it ought to have been cir¬ cumscribed by, it would have smashed all the good farmers in the district. 1536. Chairman .] How many of those sugges¬ tions were entirely or partially adopted, and how many were not adopted?—Two of them were adopted. 1537. Which two?—The resolution to ex¬ tend compensation for malicious injuries to property, to malicious injuries to the person, but it is the incidence of the taxation that I com¬ plain of. 1538. Chairman.'] And the power of search has been extended, has it not?—We have found it very valuable to arrest parties out at night who were unable to give a proper account of them¬ selves ; that has worked remarkably well; we have got hold of some parties under that power that we should not have got hold of without. 1539. Are you still of opinion that the sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act would be the most effectual remedy ?—It is the only remedy that I know of. 1540. In your opinion are the magistrates and the police fully acquainted with the leaders of this secret society ?—Yes. 1541. Are you personally acquainted with them in your district ?—In my own district I am. 1542. You know who are the leaders in your own district ?—Yes. 1543. What are the specific causes which induce you to attribute these outrages to the action of a secret society, and not to ordinary agrarian causes, such as have prevailed in Tip¬ perary and other counties ?—I think that where outrages are carried out by the Ribbon Society as a body there is an absence of all information, their system defies information; there are so many links, the one following on to the other, that they baffle all attempts to find them out. If two men fight and squabble amongst themselves and one kills another, we can get information enough about that, but a genuine Ribbon out¬ rage, carried out by the instrumentality of the Ribbon Society, I have always found it impossible to trace. 1544. Or to obtain any information about it ? —You may get information about one link, but that link will not tell you anything about the one that preceded it, or the one that followed it, or at all events not much about it. 1545. Has not that been the case also in cases of agrarian outrage in other counties ?—I cannot speak with certainty with reference to agrarian outrages in other counties. 0.50. 1546. In your opinion would the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act be only a temporary remedy, or would it last beyond the period of the suspension ?—That would depend upon what powers are taken to suspend it; if you take power to suspend it for a year, and one or two parties I know were let out again, their subordi¬ nates would not give you any information about it, but if they were known to be in your power for two years, I think you might get informa¬ tion. 1547. You are of opinion that nothing will finally break up the society but obtaining evi¬ dence and conviction ?—Society is strangled in my county by the Ribbon system. 1548. My question is this, do you think anj^- thing will comp’etely break up the Ribbon Society except obtaining some convictions ?—I think that if a few parties who are the leaders (and they are very few) of this society were arrested, you would find the rest of the society harmless. 1549. But you and your brother magistrates, I conceive, do not contemplate the perpetual sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act ?—Certainly not; it is repulsive to any man’s ideas and feel¬ ings. 1550. What reason have you to think that at the expiration of the period of suspension matters would not revert to their present state ?—Because I apprehend that pending the suspension you would get a large amount of information which would enable you to prosecute certain parties whom you have not been able to get hold of yet. 1551. And to obtain convictions?—To obtain convictions undoubtedly if you prosecuted. 1552. Have you formed any opinion upon the probability of obtaining convictions from a West¬ meath jury if sufficient evidence could be brought before them ?—The action of juries has become very uncertain of late, but I think that if the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended they would return to their ordinary findings, that is to say on the evidence before them. 1553. Where strong evidence has been brought before a jury convictions have been occasionally obtained, have they not?—We have never had a conviction in the case of a true Ribbon outrage for 20 years. There was a case of firino- at the person in this way ; a certain police force was out on patrol, and they met with a party, and that party was suspected, but not proved, as I hold, to be the parties who had visited certain houses just before. The police made a dash at the party to arrest them for being out at night, and the party fired into the police. 1554. But in that case a conviction was ob¬ tained?—Yes, at the last assize; the man was taken red-handed. Mr. Townshend, the police¬ man, laid hold of the man ; there was no doubt about it, he had him in his hand, but it was not proved to my satisfaction at all that they were the same party who had visited two or three houses before. 1555. But they were taken with arms in their hands at night—Yes, they were. 1556. Is it not your opinion that they be¬ longed to a Ribbon Society ?—That might be, but I would not class that among outrages carried out under the Ribbon Society. 1557. What do you think is the shortest period of suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act H 2 which Mr .Roch/ort Boyd. 23 March 187U 60 MINUTES ON EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr .Rochfort which would give genei*al confidence, and enable Boyd . some evidence to be obtained?—Two years. - 1558. Mr. Hardy .] You live in the centre of 2 3 March these districts that are complained of?—I live in l ®7 , » the focus of Ribbonism. 1559. Some questions have been asked by this Committee with reference to the wages paid to the labouring class, and with reference to their houses; can you give the Committee any in¬ formation upon that subject ?—I am one of the largest employers in the county, and I think I know all about that. Wages have risen very much in the time that I have been an employer. I recollect when men Avere to be had for 1 s. in the summer, and 10 d. a day in the winter, but the standing wages now would be for able-bodied men 9.?. a week. 1560. Sir G. Grey.] For agricultural labourers do you mean ?—Agricultural labourers. 1561. Mr. Hardy '] Do you yourself pay that amount ?—I myself pay that with a house and garden. A casual man, who comes in with liberty to go again when he pleases, gets 9 s. a week with a house, but without a garden. 1562. Have you built houses for your labourers ?— I have. 1563. Is that state of things general in the county? — The average wages would be 9s. a week. 1564. Are you acquainted with any part of Westmeath in which a labourer constantly em¬ ployed receives wages as low as 5s. a week?— Certainly not, except where he gets other things. 1565. There Avas an inquiry upon that subject previous to the bringing in of the Land Bill by the Assistant Commissioner and the Poor LaAv Inspector, Avas there not?—I could not speak to that exactly ; that would be held in Mullingar. When I talk of the labour wages, I do not include the town of Mullingar. Probably you could always obtain cheaper labour in the town, in Mullingar, where there is a large pauper population floating about, but I am talking of the country generally. 1566. You Avould say that the ordinary average Avages for a resident agricultural la¬ bourer Avas 10s. a Aveek ?— Yes; or from 9s. to 10 s. a Aveek. 1567. Is that about the average paid by other * employers? — If you ask me generally about other employers, I should say that you could not get able-bodied men under 8 s. at any time, much more in harvest and spring. 1568. We have had some statements made as to evictions and extermination of the population ; is it Avithin your knowledge that, during the 30 years you have been living in Westmeath, there have been cases of that sort to any great extent ? —Do you refer to what is called Avholesale evictions. 1569. I mean Avholesale evictions?—I never knew of any ; cases there have been of altera¬ tion of farms with purchases by the landlord from certain men who, OAving to circumstances, could not be retained as tenants at the termina¬ tion of the middleman’s leases. 1570. But you are not acquainted Avith any¬ thing like Avholesale clearances? —No, I know of nothing of the sort. 1571. Mr. Bruen.] You have given evidence Avith regard to the Ribbon system; your in¬ formation, I presume, is the result of many inquiries that you have directed into it, and into outrages connected Avith it?—It is the result of experience extending over 30 years; Ave are constantly gleaning all the information that we can about it. 1572. Do you adhere to that statement that you made, that not one successful discovery and prosecution of a pure Ribbon outrage had been made for 20 years ?—Those were not exactly my words, I think. I said, “ An outrage committed under orders, and through the system of the Ribbon Society.’’ Will you allow me to explain that an outrage may occur, and that all the parties concerned in that outrage may be Rib- bonmen, but it does not. at all follow that the outrage is perpetrated under the orders of the Ribbon Society. I think that I could name some outrages in which Ribbonmen Avere con- cerncd, but Avhich Avere not by any means perpetrated under the orders of their superiors. 1573. From the information you have received in those inquiries, could you give the Committee any short description of the mode in Avhich a Ribbon outrage pure is connected, which Avill ex¬ plain the reason why it cannot be detected ?— Yes, I think so. There are those present Avho Avould know it as Avell or better than I do, but I have no objection to state Avhat I think generally occurs. A certain man is to be punished for doing something that is considered an infringe¬ ment of the laAV of the Ribbon Society. A sub¬ scription is raised to get. this man shot; for ex¬ ample, the money Avould be lodged in the hands of some one belonging to the adjacent Ribbon Lodge perhaps, or some one in Avhom they can confide at all events. That party sends off to a different part of the country altogether for some one quite unknoAvn to the locality, who probably never stood in that part of the country Avhere the outrage is to be committed, Avho comes up and executes the person. That is the ordinary course of pi-oceedings as flu* as we can learn of it. 1574. And therefore unless all the links in the chain combine together to give information no prosecution can be sustained?—No, it is im¬ possible to sustain it, because the men Avho sub¬ scribe to get the act done have no idea at all of Avho does it any more than of the country he has come from. It does not folloAV that the man who fires at the other man knoAVS the parties Avho sub¬ scribed originally to get it done, in fact, he is sure not to know. 1575. Then do you think that the effect of this impunity is that the Ribbon law actually domi¬ nates over the laAV of the land ?—Thoroughly in my part of the country. I do not believe that any men consider much Avhether they are going to violate the Laa* of the land about anything. The only thing they consider is, Avhether they are going to violate a Lav Avhich is certain to bring its punishment after it, namely, the law of the Ribbon Society. 1576. In fact you consider, in the words of your resolution, adopting the Avords of the noble Chairman, “ The state of the country is in¬ tolerable”?—It is intolerable. All rights of pro¬ perty and of employers have gone. 1577. Is it within your knowledge whether the grand jury, and others attending to public busi¬ ness, such as magistrates, have exercised and discharged their duties in fear of their lives; have they been threatened, or have they ex¬ pressed a fear of their meeting with the ven¬ geance of the Ribbon system in the discharge of their 6*1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS;. their duties ?—I do not think that the grand jury upon the last occasion expressed any fear of that sort, but the conduct of jurors and witnesses left no doubt, as far as they were concerned, that they were in very great trepidation indeed, in fact, we could hardly get a word out of the wit¬ nesses at the last assizes in the grand jury room. There was one notable case, in which I had to examine a man who had sworn positive infor¬ mations as to his house being; visited. He swore positively to four parties, but when he came into the grand jury room he began to get doubtful about the parties, and finally, by the time he got to the court, he never saw the parties before, and was prepared to swear it. 1578. Mr. Downing .] You stated, in answer to a question put by an honourable Member of the Committee, that you were not aware of any evictions ; does that refer to the whole of that county, or to the district in which you reside ? — —I never heard of Avhat is called wholesale evictions or clearances in Westmeath, or any¬ thing like what would justify the name of a clearance. 1579. Did you read the pastoral letter that was published by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Meath (Dr. Nulty) against the Ribbon societies of Westmeath? — I read that pastoral letter, but it did not strike me that the bent of that pastoral letter was against the Ribbon Society. 1580. You have read it, I presume ?—It was put into my hands three days ago. 1581. The Rev. Mr. Nulty says that 700 beings were driven from their homes in one day ; is that perfectly untrue ?—1 do not think it is possible that it could have occurred with¬ out my knowledge in my county, but his dio¬ cese, you will recollect, far extends beyond my county. 1582. It might have occurred in Meath ?—I cannot say, and there is no date given to the circumstance; I can only say that nothing ever occurred in my county that would seem to answer that description at all; I cannot speak to other counties. 1583. The suggestions that were made by the magistrates in 1869, considering the period, were very strong recommendations, were they not?— That period was one of great anxiety to us; the station master at Mullingar, who had nothing to do with land, had just been murdered in a most brutal manner on the station. 1584. I merely say you will admit that they were strong measures ?—I think they were strong, as the circumstances demanded that they should be. 1585. Do you know of any one of those 40 magistrates who met upon that occasion and made these strong recommendations to Govern- ment, having been injured on account of them ? —I daresay on looking over the names I might be able to speak to that, but I cannot call to mind at the present moment any of them having been threatened or fired at on account of the part they took upon that occasion. 1586. You stated at the commencement of your evidence that you, a county magistrate, did not recognise attendance of resident ma¬ gistrates at your meetings ?—No ; we look upon them as purely officers of the Government, as we look upon the chief of the police for instance. 1587. Is there anything like an unpleasant feeling between the resident magistrates and the O u local gentry in your county ?—No; we have 0.50. pulled together very well upon the whole, but M r.Rochfort they are looked upon as Government officers; Boyd . they make their own reports of course, without -- reference to us with regard to outrages. 23 March 1588. Which you complain of?—No; I do 1871 . not think that it is a subject of complaint; some years ago there was a little jealously per¬ haps, but I think that that has died out. 1589. You have given the Committee some v ery important evidence here, with reference to the area and incidence of taxation. I suppose you read the proceedings in Parliament during the passing of the Peace Preservation Act?—I believe I did. 1590. Are you aware that what you recom¬ mended actually passed the House of Commons ; that it should be a house tax instead of a land tax, and that the next day the Government rescinded that provision, as they could not carry it out ?—I know that it was stated that the Government wheeled round very short upon the subject. 1591. You remember that fact ?—I remember it being stated; it is a very lamentable fact that they did so, because great injustice has been caused by the rescinding of it. 1592. Are you aware of the mode of valuation upon which the taxation is fixed ?—There is one valuation for all purposes with us; it was first called Griffith’s valuation, and it has gone under different names; it is now the basis of the income tax, poor law, county rates, and every other rate. 1593. Do you not know that in the case of a man holding 300 acres of land, his house may be valued merely at the nominal sum of 40 s. ?— Very few men holding 300 acres live in houses worth only 40 s. 1594. Do you not know that the valuation of his house is a very small sum indeed as compared with the valuation of his land?—Yes, certainly. 1595. That in the case of a man who has 100 acres of land, his house might not be valued at 1 s. more than that of the man who had 10 acres of land ?—Quite so. 1596. How would this system then be so ruinous as you say it must be ?—The incidence of taxation brings it heavily upon land which cannot plot against the life, for instance, of a neighbour. Bullocks and sheep, for instance, do not plot against the lives of people; we think that the outrages committed are concocted in a very different class of house from that which you have spoken of. 1597. You are of opinion that taxation should reach the very smallest house; cases where a person might have a house and an acre of land ? —I am of opinion that, taxation should reach the residences of the parties who would be most likely to know of outrages, and that parties should not be punished for that which they could not know of. 1598. How could you recover from parties of that description a sum of 5 /. ; would it not be perfectly useless to attempt it ?—I would very much rather have a much smaller tax put upon those parties, who could prevent outrage, than upon those who could not prevent it, upon whom it is unjustly imposed. 1599. It was stated before this Committee by a resident magistrate, that he applied to_ Govern¬ ment to remit the tax from a great number of h 3 people N 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr .Rochfort Boyd. 23 March 1871. people on account of their poverty ; would you therefore on the same showing levy the tax upon that very same class of people who are unable to pay it?—You are applying my observations to the murder rate, as I call it; but my observations were applied to the penal police rate. A police force is sent to a certain district for a certain specific time ; in that ease the large farmers pay the tax while the householders escape. 1600. It amounts sometimes to 5 s. in the pound, does not it; we have returns to show that?—I do not recollect it amounting to any¬ thing like 5 s. in the pound. 1601. With regard to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; if you had the Act sus¬ pended to-morrow, do you not think that the parties would leave the particular district and go to another, for I take it for granted that you do not intend to apply it, except to the particular county where the outrages exist ?—Possibly they might. 1602. I mean taking your own individual opinion ; would you have it applied to the whole of the county ? —• Our recommendation was limited to power being taken by the Lord Lieu¬ tenant to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in certain proclaimed districts; those proclaimed districts might comprise a very small or a very large area; we did not dabble in that; but in certain proclaimed districts we recommended that that power should be given. 1603. I understood you to say that you do agree with the evidence given before the Committee yesterday, that generally speaking these murders are committed by parties brought in from another county ?—I do, from another locality. 1604. Suppose you had the Act suspended to¬ morrow, do you not think that some of those parties you now refer to might leave the county of Meath and goto an adjoining county?—I wish they would; I think, probably, that they would go to America. 1605. Viscount Sandond] Since the month of March 1869, when the deputation of magistrates went up to the Castle, has the state of Westmeath improved, or deteriorated ?—I think it has been worse, probably for the last year, than I have ever known it. 1606. Have you made any fresh representations before this presentment from the grand jury upon that subject to the Government?—The date of the meeting 1 have spoken of was 1869; there was nothing between that and the resolu¬ tions of a county character; nothing emanating from the magistrates of the county, but many individual rejiresentations of course were made. 1607. Have many communications passed be¬ tween members of the Government and the lead¬ ing members of the magistracy upon the subject? —1 could not speak with reference to that, as many magistrates might make communications of which I could not be cognisant. 1608. Have you reason to suppose that the Government have been in receipt of all the infor¬ mation which you have been able to give to the Committee during the last feiv months ?—I should say that the Government ought to be in possession of a vast amount of information from the resident magistrates and the police force. None could be more efficient than the resident magistrates we have residing with us. I think that the Government ought, through their resi¬ dent magistrates, to have been made aware of everything, and I presume that they have been. 1609. Mr. Russell Gurney. ] I understand you to say that, in your opinion, the organisation of this Ribbon Society is very old ; that the society has been long in existence?—Yes. 1610. Supposing that the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, as I understand your opinion is, that the leaders would be got hold of?—Yes. 1611. Have you any reason to suppose that with such an organisation there would not be leaders appointed to succeed them ?—No, I think there would not; because, although the organi¬ sation is large, and very extended, the leaders are very few ; nor do I think that those young men who have unfortunately been forced into such an organisation would adhere to it after those men that led them into it were put up. 1612. Then you think that the mass of the members of the Ribbon Society are really opposed to the Ribbon Society?—The mass of young men who are forced to join the society very soon come to regret it. 1613. But the leaders are chosen by the parish masters and the body masters, as I think they call them ; they would continue in exist¬ ence, would they not ? — I suppose that they would continue in existence; but the suspicion, when you got hold of the few real heads, would be so great, that these very men would turn upon them, and would break up the whole system. 1614. It is by long experience and by informa¬ tion of different kinds, that the police have become acquainted with who the present leaders are ?— There never was much doubt about that. 1615. It has been known a long time, has it not ?—Yes. 1616. Would it not take a long time again to OO ascertain who were their successors ?-••-No; once those men were put up, as I before remarked, I think you would have ample information which would enable you to get further evidence of a very important character. 1617. You have known a time when the Ha¬ beas Corpus Act has been suspended?—Yes. 1618. You were in Westmeath at the the time when the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, were you not; that was from 1866 to 1869 ?— That was not at all relating to Ribbonism. I say, that Act only related to political matters ; that when a magistrate applied to Government to put that in force with regard to civil outrages, the Government said that they could not apply it to anything but political outrages. 1619. You think that, as regards the effect of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, if it were passed in general terms, we have not seen the effect of it in consequence of the limited time during which it was applied?—It has never been tried. 1620. It has been applied for political offences, but you think that that is the reason why you cannot judge, from what was the effect then, of what would be the effect if it were applied to agrarian and non-political cases ?—I think that the effect may well be judged from the fact that when all parties of every grade in Westmeath anticipated that such a power was to be taken in the Act of two years ago, we had an entire ces¬ sation of crime. All crime seemed to cease for a time; but when they found that that power was not in the Bill they began again, and they made up for lost time too. 1621. Did SELECT COMMITTEE OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBIXATIONS). 63 1621. Did any of them leave the district under that apprehension ?—They did not leave, but they behaved very differently from what they would have done. 1622. But the organisation remained the same ? —Yes, the organisation remained the same, but outrage ceased. 1623. Were not the Fenians and Ribbonmen united, at that time, to a great extent?—Upon that subject there is a great diversity of opinion. I believe that any man would be taken into the Fenian body, but I do not believe that any man would be taken into the Ribbon body ; far from it. 1624. Mr. B/unket.l In fact the strength of the conspiracy at present depends to a great extent upon the prestige of its leaders?—Yes. 1625. They trust, in fact, to their impu¬ nity?— 'To the certainty of their orders being carried out, and to the certainty of the parties carrying them out not being detected. 1626. This confidence in their leaders would of course be destroyed if some of them were arrested ?—Naturally. 1627. Have you in your possession, or have you had at any time, a copy of the Ribbon oath ? —I have it in the room. 1628. Will you mention to the Committee the circumstances under which that oath came into your possession ?—After Mr. AnketelPs murder a certain house near Mullingar was searched, and ' in fins house was found not alone the oath which has been in print (I saw it the other day in the London papers), but certain instructions as to how to swear in the parties; I have it in the room ; it was copied by a brother magistrate at the time, and sent to me. 1629. Will you read it?—These would appear to be mere instructions as to what should be done by the parish masters ; it is headed “ Obligations of a Ribbonman.” 1630. Was that in writing or print ?—I don’t know. It is evidently instructions, for it begins, “ The person is first asked by the captain or committee man, f Is it your wish, with all your heart and mind, to assume the heavenly act of Ribbonman, or any other title you may get from the board?’ The person answers, ‘ Yes.’ The captain of the committee then says, £ Take the book in your right hand, and go down on your bare knees ; you swear;’ ” and so it goes on with the oath. 1631. Will you read the oath ?—Yes ; “ You swear that you will never prosecute a Ribbonman or any other title he may get from the Ribbon board, before judge or jury, or any man that can trust our system.” The person then, if it is not his wish to receive the chief secrets, may rise and go away; but if he answers, t£ Yes,” the captain orders him to bless himself, and take the book in his right hand ; and he is then sworn as follows : ££ By virtue of the oath I have taken, I will aid and assist with all my might and strength, when called upon to massacre Protestants and cut away heretics, burn British churches, abolish Pro¬ testant Kings and Princes and all others, except the Church of Rome and this system ; and by virtue of the oath I have taken, 1 will think it no sin to kill and massacre a Protestant whenever opportunity serves; and by virtue of the said oath, if I know any of the members of this system to be backward in executing any of the aforesaid orders, I will immediately make it known to the captain or the committeeman belonging to the Ribbon board; and by virtue of the oath I always 0.50. will attend at one moment’s warning to execute any commands belonging to the system, and that I will never see a brother hurt or abused by any not up to this system without assisting him, or will I buy anything from a Protestant at any terms if I can get it from a brother, and I also feel bound to believe that there is no absolution to be had from the Pope of Rome, or any other authority belonging to that Church, on any part of this solemn test, or any favour in this world, or that which is to come, for a breach of this test.” 1632. Mr. Russell Gurney .] Was not any of that in print ?—All that followed the directions was in print. I think Mr. Monk read it the other night in the House of Commons. 1633. Mr. Pemberton .] The result of your opinion is shortly that you see no remedy for this state of things except by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act?—No other remedy. 1634. You say so, speaking from your experi¬ ence of the partial suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, as far as it was applied formerly ?— All remedial measures have so pressed upon the parties who were not the guilty parties, that I do not see what else can be done except to come down upon the guilty parties directly. 1635. And you would extend the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, as well to the Ribbon Society as to agrarian outrages?—I would extend it to all those outrages that have been the subject of the consideration of the Committee. 1636. Mr. Gregory. ] Do you believe that the actual perpetrators of those outrages are those men who have been described as being the heads of the conspiracy, or do they keep aloof from the perpetration of the acts themselves ?—The heads of the conspiracy never commit an outrage. 1637. Are those outrages, as a general rule, committed by what might be called servant boys and labourers?—The rank and file of the Ribbon Society is composed very much of the class you speak of; servant boys and railway labourers to a remarkable extent. 1638. One of the witnesses before this Com¬ mittee described the condition of the labourers in Westmeath, to the effect that many of them were in a very wretched condition as regarded their habitations and mode of living; is that the case to your knowledge?—Certainly not; I do not know where he could have had his labourers from who said that. 1639. We have also heard that labourers can be procured; I am not speaking merely of the towns, but in the agricultural districts for from 10 d. to a 1 s. a day?—The women get that occasionally. 1640. Then you do not agree with that state¬ ment?—Not at all. 1641. When you speak of the average of wages being 9 s. a week, with a house and gar¬ den, are you speaking of the wages given by gentlemen like yourself of large means, employ¬ ing a considerable amount of labour, or do you extend that observation to farmers?—Farmers sometimes find it more difficult to get labourers than we do; there is a bad feeling between the labourer and the farmer, which does not exist between the labourer and the gentleman. 1642. I presume from your answers that you would not wish that encouragement should be given to the farmers rather than to the landlords, for the erection of suitable dwellings for la¬ bourers ? — I would encourage both; I would H 4 hope Mr. Rochfort Boyd. 23 March 1871. 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE . Rochfort hope that under altered circumstances the farmers Boyd . would employ more labour than they do now. - 1643. Do you think that, as a general rule, 3 March the farmers would build houses and employ more 1 ®7 1 - labourers if encouragement were given them to do so?—Some of them with good leases would do so, I have no doubt. 1644. You spoke about the rise in wages ; have you seen any statements of the Poor Law In¬ spectors to the effect that prices have nearly doubled between the years 1849 and 1869, taking as a basis the cost of maintenance in the work- houses?—I am so intimately acquainted with the labour question in Westmeath that I never look into those returns at all; I do not think that those who make them know as much as I do myself about it. 1645. But still I suppose that the cost of maintenance and the cost of food has very con¬ siderably risen with the increase of wages ?— The cost of food has risen. 1646. And clothing?—No; clothing has not risen much, rather the other way; the cost of food has risen, but not at all in proportion to the hire, in no proportion at all to the value that is given for the money that is paid to the labourers in the present day ; the man with 9 s. a week will not do anything like the work that a man did at 6 s. a week 15 years ago. 1647. You spoke of the rights of employers of property, and you stated that the rights of em¬ ployers of property in Westmeath were altogether gone; I think that those were your words ?— Yes. 1648. Perhaps the same state of things may also be said to apply to the tenant; they are also quite under a similar system of terror with re¬ gard to all the transactions of daily life ?—Yes, certainly. 1649. And I gathered from you that there are many persons actually affiliated to these societies who would be the very first to rejoice at their suppression ?—Yes, I believe that many young men, expostulated with by their clergy for example, when they first find out that they have joined, would willingly abandon it, but they cannot. 1650. The action of the clergy, I presume, has invariably been directed against these con¬ spiracies ?—It has been very much directed against those conspiracies, but it has been over¬ come. 1651. The Ribbon influence has overcome even the influence of the clergy ?—Yes, it dis¬ regards it. 1652. You were speaking a short time ago of the conduct of jurors; do you attach any im¬ portance to the change of venue in trying persons for Bibbon offences, which is provided for under the 29th clause of this Act ?—I think it would be most valuable to change the venue, judging from the conduct of jurors for some time past. 1653. In an emergency like the present (for I tlunk we may consider this an emergency at pre¬ sent), would you be disposed to change the venue in all cases which are clearly Ribbon offences ?— Certainly; but you will allow me to say, more especially to a town where the parties upon the jury would not be subject to the after conse¬ quences of the verdict. 1654. Have you heard of any instances of black mail being levied upon any landlords in the country with a view either to protect themselves, or to assist those persons?—I do not believe a word of it. 1655. Not in a single instance ?—I do not think so. I have heard that one man paid a cer¬ tain sum of money to get a ruffian away to America out of his neighbourhood ; but I do not think that would come fairly under the head of black mail. 1656. Mr. James.] During the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act from 1866 to 1869, there were, we hear, a considerable number of Fenians arrested ? —I believe so. 1657. Will you tell the Committee to whom was left the duty of pointing out the suspected persons; was that duty entirely cast upon the constabulary, or did the magistrates take part in advising who should be arrested ?—We took no part whatever; it was left entirely to the officials and the constabulary. 1658. I presume you would know sufficient about the arrests to tell me this ; do you know anything about a mistake being made, or a case in which it was thought that an innocent person had been arrested ?—I could not call to mind any case, but very few were arrested in my county. 1659. You think that if the Act was properly performed, there would be no difficulty in select¬ ing the persons who should be arrested ?—I never heard it stated that the wrong man had been taken. 1660. You stated, with reference to the sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, that if it is to be efficacious, there ought to be given a power of suspending it for a period of two years?—I think that a lesser period would not give con¬ fidence to anyone wishing to give informa¬ tion. 1661. You seem to think that the police and magistrates have ample information with re¬ ference to who are the members of the Ribbon Society ?—Yes. 1662. They having that information, you would not require to obtain it from the Ribbonmen themselves ?— But it is not information upon which you could convict. 1663. But there is no conviction required; what you require is to detain persons as a deter¬ rent influence; why, if you have the information now in the hands of the police or the magistrates, would you require such a period of suspension as two years in oi'der to detain a person ?—Our great object would be to get such an amount of information as would break up the whole con¬ spiracy ; if, for example, you had only a sus¬ pension for one year, I do not think you would obtain such an amount of information as would enable you in any court of justice to prosecute with success. 1664. But when you say your object is to break up the conspiracy, I understand that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act that you require is not for the purpose of keeping persons in detention all that time, but to enable you to convict parties?—To convict parties who are in gaol or at large. 1665. If you extended the period for one year without conviction, would not that serve your purpose without convicting the party ?— The great object of every honest man would be to get rid of those men altogether who are mis¬ leading the men of the country. 1666. Agreed ; but do you not think that that which has been always fixed as the limit, namely, six months, would carry that into effect?—Ido not think so. 1667. There SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 65 1667. Thcj-e is a clause in the Peace Preser¬ vation Act, the 25th clause, which is almost equal to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; it gives the power that any stranger sojourning or wandering in a district proclaimed, may be taken before a justice of the peace, and if he does not answer to the satisfaction of the justice of the peace he may be detained for an unlimited period; do you know whether that has been acted upon in Westmeath, or whether any arrests have been made under that section ?-—I do not call to mind any arrests that have been made under it. 1668. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.'] On the occasion to which you refer, when that document which you produced was found in the house near Mul¬ lingar, was there only that single document found ?—I could not tell that; the document was sent to me by Mr. Swift. 1669. Then you could not say whether that was the identical document containing the oath with the preliminaries to which you adverted ?— I could not say wkat was found. 1670. That was in Captain Talbot’s district, was it not ?—Certainly; close to his own resi¬ dence. 1671. You yourself reside near there, I be¬ lieve ?—I reside about nine miles from there. 1672. Where are your petty sessions?—Kil- beggan. 1673. Mr. Maguire .] As I understand you, you state that a very large number of the people have been anxious to get rid of the terrorism of this conspiracy ?—I think a great number of young men, yielding to the advice of their clergy, would be very glad to abandon the Ribbon Society. 1674. Those are the very persons who, accord¬ ing to your statement, forms the rank and file of the organisation?—Yes, the young men. 1675. I might presume, then, that their parents would be still more anxious to have that change O effected ?—Yes, no doubt they would be very anxious. 1676. Am I to understand from you that their parents take any part whatever in this illegality ? —None whatever. 1677. That they are averse to it rather than favourable to it ?—They are thoroughly averse to it, as I understand. 1678. Taking that statement as the basis of my question, how could you say it would be fair to impose a crushing tax in any given small area upon people who are averse to illegality, and have taken no part in it?—I advocate the very opposite to that. I wish to have the houses taxed in which the mischief is very often con¬ cocted, and where the parties reside who carry out these outrages. 1679. Take a certain district in which an outrage occurs; do you mean to say that the owners of all those houses have cognisance of any particular outrage, or sympathies with it ?— We have very remarkable instances, not of sympathy exactly, but of cognisance of where outrages were about to be committed in villages; for example, we do not think that the farmers who have large farms have much to say to these cases. 1680. Suppose for a moment that at a little distance from a village, or any other place, an outrage occurs which is the result possibly of a quarrel, but still it is a desperate outrage; or suppose that a desperate outrage is committed 0.50. by half-a-dozen people, but it is not plainly attributable to Ribbon organisation, would it be a fair thing to put upon that district a crushing house tax ?—I do not know that it would be fair to put on any district a crushing house tax. 1681. But would not the imposition of a heavy tax upon a small area be more crushing and more disastrous in the form of a house tax than in the form of a land tax ?—I think a poll tax, or a house tax, would be fairer imposition, because there you catch the class to which these men chiefly belong. I do not see the fairness of taxing a man with a farm of some 100 acres, who is innocent. I do not say it is not fair in re¬ gard to compensation, but in regard to the penal police force, and I say that that is ruining the best class of farmers, and making them disloyal. 1682. Would you give such a representation of your countv as to say that, within any given area, there is not a large number of persons who are averse to illegality, and averse to outrage, and wish all that at an end ; I am talking of laro-e farmers as well as holders of land?—Of O course there will be honest and proper people in all classes of society. 1683. In villages, as well as in purely rural parts, are there not many people who are averse to illegality, and who would do all they fairly could to put an end to it ?—No doubt there are. 1684. Would you then mulct them severely because of terror or weakness of mind ?—You cannot possibly put on any tax for such purposes that will not do some injustice somehow or other, but the greatest injustice that can be done is to tax the land which cannot have any cognisance whatever of the mischief that is going forward. 1685. But what is the difference between the house and land; a house does not conspire because it is a house?—No, but it holds those who do. 1686. But may not the land conspire too, that is to say, the parties holding it?—No, I do not think so. 1687. You think, therefore, that the small farmers have nothing whatever to do with it ?— I cannot tell what evidence you may have with regard to that. 1688. Is that your belief?—Certainly not; but as you go up in the grade of farmers, when you get to the lai'ge farmers, there is less sympathy with this sort of thing. 1689. You were asked by the honourable Member for the county of Galway as to whether it was possible to impose a heavy tax upon occu¬ piers of houses ; is it possible to get it from them without their utter annihilation ?—At the last grand jury, Avhen this very question was can¬ vassed, a grand juror computed what a poll- tax would have been in the barony, and found that in the barony which was taxed for the murder of Mr. Dowling, Mr. Perry’s timekeeper, it was almost exactly the same thing. The poll-tax would be 6d., as well as we could calculate it, and it was 6| cl. I think upon the valuation per acre. 1690. You were asked some questions in re¬ ference to wages; I wish to understand that matter rather clearly, because we received evi¬ dence upon that subject from the chief stipendiary magistrates, to whom you bear very proper testimony, that is to say, Captain Talbot, Mr. Reade, and Captain Barry, they are under the idea, and they stated to the Committee, that the X average Mr. Rochfort Boyd. 23 March 1871. 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr .Rocfifort Boyd . 23 March 1871. average rate of wages would he about 6 s. a week; do you apply your answer to the wages of per¬ sons employed by farmers or gentlemen? The farmers have to pay more than we pay; but the farmers do not employ the men constantly. 1691. Is it within your knowledge that the farmer has to pay the men as long as he does employ them at the rate of 10s. a week ? I have known them give 4 s. a day. 1692. In what time of the year was that?— During harvest time. I should state that farmers in my county are not employers of labour I hey get their work done by what we know as farmer s boys, who live in the house. 1693. When they employ labourers, do they give them 10s. a week?—They give them more than that in harvest and at other times. They do not employ as a rule. 1694. But when they do employ, do you know of less than 10 s. a week being paid by the or¬ dinary farmers ?—They cannot get them for less than 9 s. The resident magistrates come from towns where there is a floating population. In Mullingar and Kilbeggan, and places like that, they would perhaps be g ad to get 7 d. a day. 1695. Do I understand you to say that the in¬ formation of those resident magistrates is con¬ fined to the towns, and that they do not know what is going on in the county ?—I do not sup¬ pose that they have much to do with the labour question in any way. 1696. Colonel Wilson Patten. J You have de¬ livered in a paper to the Committee connected with a Ribbon Lodge in your neighbourhood. Have you any reason to believe that the pro¬ ceedings of the Ribbon Lodges have been altered, and that their oath has been altered within any recent period ?—I cannot say that the form of the oath has been altered, or that it has not. I think that there have been various forms of oath, but that the society is substantially what it always was. 1697- 8. You told the Committee that you had very often had great trouble in inducing wit¬ nesses before the grand jury to give the same evidence in court as they had given in their in¬ formations ; could you give any remarkable instances of that?—At the last assize I men¬ tioned that there was one man who swore posi¬ tively at home to four men whom he well knew, and had known for years, that came to his house, and when he came into court he did not know them at all. 1699. In your evidence you stated that the extra police tax should be levied by the extra police, and not along with the ordinary rates, as it is at the present moment; what is your reason for that?—We will take the last rate which has been struck for the murder of the man near me. That will go in with the county cess. The farmer that pays it will not distinguish it; he finds his county cess very heavy, but unless he inquires he will not know to what the increase is attributable. I say that whatever you do in that way should be levied by the police, and a receipt given, as for murder rate or a police rate, as it may be, distinctly. Now the man cannot understand why his rates are so heavy. i 700. Do I understand you to say that the extra police rate should be levied exclusively upon houses, or upon houses as combined with land?—It would be better to come upon houses as far as it could, a moiety might be levied upon houses, or at all events, a portion, but the present incidence of taxation is extremely faulty and bad. 1701. Is any portion of the tax now levied upon houses?—Wes, of course; what I object to is, that when a man pays his rates at the present day, the police rate is mixed up with the county rates, and he does not know what he pays for. 1702. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland .] You said something with regard to the change of venue ; can you point out to the Committee any instance in which there has been a miscarriage of justice in consequence of the venue not having been changed ?—There has never been a success¬ ful prosecution in those cases; I do think that there Avas a great miscarriage of justice, if I am obliged to say so, in Supple’s case, at the \ r ery last assizes. 1703. In Supple’s case the jury acquitted the prisoner?—Yes, they acquitted the prisoner. 1704. Was not there a fair question before the jury as to the identification of the accused? —I do not think there was. 1705. Was there not an alibi given in evi¬ dence in favour of the accused ?—I would not give much for an alibi. 1706. Whether you would give much for an alibi or not, was not there an alibi, at all events, attempted to be proved in his favour?— I believe there was. 1707. With respect to this question of the area of taxation, do you mean to say, gravely, that any farmer cannot distinguish when he is obliged to pay his rates, between the sum put on for crime and the sum he is obliged to pay for county cess ?—There is nothing upon the face of his receipt to show it. 1708. Does not he knoAv what his county cess is ?—I suppose that he knoAVS generally what it is, but our county cess has been enormously raised for Shannon drainages, which have never been carried out, and for lunatic asylums, and many other things. 1709. Your suggestion is, that it should be so apportioned that the farmer should know hoAV much Avas the police rate, and hoAV much Avas the ordinary county rate ? — It Avould be very proper to do so. 17'0. Have you any other suggestion to make to the Committee with reference to the area of taxation except that houses or persons should be taxed ?—Of course the poll-tax is the fairest tax of all, AA r here it can be levied. 1711. If you cannot levy the poll-tax, then Ave come to the house-tax ?—Then we come to the house-tax, a moiety or some proportion, so as to come upon the guilty parties, should be levied. 1712. Have not the grand jury, under section 39, the power of levying this murder-rate upon the barony, half barony, or other portion of the county?—Yes; but will the Committee allow me to instance the case of Waters’s murder. Waters was murdered in the barony of Moyashel, nine or ten miles’ distance from Avhere the parties lived Avho were the cause of the murder. Then there came a great difficulty upon the grand jury Avhere to apportion this tax ; it was a gross injustice to apportion it over the barony of Moyashel; we had no eAudence that the barony of Moyashel had anything to do Avith it, but in the end Ave Avere obliged to levy it off the parish of Mullingar. 1713. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 67 1713. Is it not the fact that compensation for the murder of Waters, amounting to 32 51., has been levied off the town of Mullingar?—The murder rate was put on the parish. 1714-15. What portion of it?—I do not know what portion of it; the parish of Mullingar is seven or eight miles from east to west. 1716. Had you any other case of a written oath except the one which you have produced ? —I do not know whether I have at home, or not. Owing to certain circumstances, I have not been much at home lately. 1717. Have you any other oath different in form from the one you have produced to-day ?— I have a recollection that I had an oath about the time we got a conviction against a man for carrying Ribbon signs, passwords, and so on. 1718. Have you got that with you?—I have not; my papers are in Ireland. 1719. I think you stated to the Committee in the early part of your examination that the Ribbon system has been growing in intensity for many years past, and that within the last 10 or 15 years it has reached its present state?—I think that its working has become a certainty. 1720. For how many years will you say that that has been so?—For several years past; I think it has amounted to a certainty. 1721. It is your judgment, as a county gentle¬ man living in Westmeath, and having property there, that the Ribbon system has been working with certainty for the last four or five years at all' events ?—It has been working a great deal more than that, but in certainty and the perfection of its organisation it has increased until we do not know' how to combat it. 1722. And it has been so increasing for the last five years ?—Every day it becomes more and more perfect. 1723. Mr. Chichester Fortes cue .] Do I understand you to say that at some period the Irish Govern¬ ment was asked by the Westmeath magistrates to apply the Lord Lieutenant’s warrant under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act to the case of Ribbon offenders?—They were asked by indi¬ vidual magistrates, but whether that was done in conversation or in writing I cannot call to mind. I think it would have been more in the way of a discussion. 1724. At what time was that?—It would be two years ago, I think, or something of that sort. 1725. You are aware that that Act expired in the month of March 1869, and therefore that application you have referred to was of course before that; would that assist you with reference to the date ?—I am quite sure that what we thought w r as that the power was there when we asked for it, but we were told that it did not apply to Ribbon offences. 1726. Mr. Disraeli."] The question was when the suggestion was ra ade to the Government ?— I could not say without my papers. 1727. Mr. Chichester Forte sc ue.] It was while the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act was in force of course, otherwise that application would have had no meaning?—Yes, but whether the applica¬ tion was made by letter or viva voce I could not say. 1728. It was during the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and at the time when the Lord Lieutenant was capable of arresting parties by his warrant ?—Of course it was. 0.50. 1729. And at that time some of the West¬ meath magistrates were anxious that that sus¬ pension should be put in force in the case of Ribbon offences as well as Fenian offences?— They were very anxious for that. 1730. Who was the Lord Lieutenant at that time ?—I can’t recollect. 1731. You will probably remember that the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act came to an end in the very early part of the year 1869 ?—I do not remember that, nor can I remember speaking myself to Lord Spencer, on the subject, but I recollect that the magistrates I referred to were satisfied from some communica¬ tion or other that the power was hardly there ; the answer perfectly satisfied them that the power was not there, and that it was of no use asking formally for it. 1732. You are not sure whether it was in 1869 or in 1868 ?—It was more likely to be in 1868 than in 1869. 1733. You know that it could not have been later than the month of March 1869, as there was no suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act after that date ; would not that assist your memory?—Of course it must have been before that. 1734. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock .] Was not it about the date of Mr. Fetherston’s murder?— Yes, it was about April 1868 ; I think some one amongst us said that the power existed upon the part of the Government to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in certain districts, and it was found that the Government did not consider that under the Act they had the power to do so. 1735. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.] There was a great feeling of horror upon the murder of Mr. Fetherston, which induced those magistrates to make that application ?—Yes. 1736. Was that murder in your opinion con¬ nected with the Ribbon Society?—Yes; the man was got up from another county, as we supposed, to do it. 1737. The Westmeath magistrates thought that if the Lord Lieutenant could have issued his warrant under the powers which they ima¬ gined he then possessed, it would have been a very good thing ?—It would have been very valu¬ able. 1738. You mentioned just now an outrage which you thought was not a Ribbon outrage, for some reason which I did not understand, namely, the firing upon the police in the winter, do you know all the circumstances of that case? —Yes. 1739. Are you aware that Sub-inspector Townsend with his party was not at the spot by accident, but in consequence of private informa¬ tion which he had received?—Yes. 1740. Namely, that certain houses were to be visited by a certain armed party ?—So I was in¬ formed. 1741. Do you also know that Sub-inspector Townsend had the presence of mind after this collision had taken place to send some of his men across the country to the houses of some of the men who he believed composed the armed party ? —He did everything which pluck and presence of mind could dictate. 1742. And did the constables he so sent meet certain parties coming back to their houses armed in the early morning ?—Yes. 1743. And then arrested them?—Yes; but I 2 that Mr .Rochfort Boyd. •23 March 1871 . 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE TIIE Mr. Rochfort Boyd, 23 March 1871. that does not prove that they were the parties who visited the houses. 1744. You are aware probably that the magis¬ trates imprisoned one of those parties for being out at night under suspicious circumstances ?— Yes, under the provisions of the Peace Preserva¬ tion Act. 1745. Still you do not think that that Avas a Ribbon outrage?—Men are out armed in my district frequently. 1746. Have you any instances that you can give to the Committee with reference to the out- rao’es that have occurred in Westmeath of late O years as to whether they have been of a Ribbon nature or not; 1 have a return which says that nearly 40 homicides have been committed in West¬ meath during the last 20 years, and that only two persons have during all that time been executed for murder?—Those were the Crowleys. 1747. I was going to ask you about a few re¬ markable cases that have occurred within the last few years; I find that in 1858 that Edward Kelly, a respectable farmer, was waylaid and shot dead; he had taken some land which another was anxious to have ; do you remember that case ?— Yes, that was close to me. 1748. In your opinion, had that anything to do with Ribbonism?—Yes, it had ; the right man was got there, hut we could not make anything of the case itself; a man suspected was convicted for beating a herd upon that land, and unfor¬ tunately the Government of the day liberated him before his three years of penal servitude Avere out. 1749. In 1859 I find that Thomas Jessop, a farmer, aa as shot dead; he had taken a farm in connection Avith that for Avhich Edward Kelly had been shot; Avas that a Ribbon murder?— Yes, that Avas a Ribbon murder. I called upon the Government of the day, when Jessop Avas shot, to prosecute, under Avhat Avas then a recent Statute, 11 persons, Avho Avere juesent, or any of them that they might select as accomplices after the fact. There were 11 persons present upon the road Avhen Jessop was shot; and after a great deal of communication Avith the Government, they said that they never could get a conviction against any of them in Mullingar, and that they would not prosecute. 1750. When you first kneAV the district, was Ribbonism then already rooted there?—Yes. 1751. Even Avhen you first kneAV it ?-—Yes, in my childhood. 1752. Sir G. Grey.] Have rents been raised during the last feAV years ?—Rents are seldom raised on large estates. My rents are Avhat they Avere about 30 years ago. Griffith’s valua¬ tion Ave called it; it Avas made about 1841. The tenants upon large estates are generally very liberally treated. 1753. Mr. Fetherston’s Avas a large estate, Avas it not ?—No, not so large as to rank Avith any of those Avhich Ave call large estates. 1754. Should you say that the value of land had increased of late vears ?—A statement re- •/ specting that Avill be seen in this morning’s “ Times In the case of land bein<£ Avanted for a lunatic asylum, where one of the best land valuers Ave have got, actually says that the value of land has increased 50 per cent, during the last feAV years. 1755. Has the selling price increased?—You cannot sell land in Westmeath now; it is not a very desirable acquisition. 1756. Hoav many years’ purchase does it gene¬ rally fetch?—I bought a great deal of land some years ago, independently of two estates that 1 inherit. 1757. And how many years’ purchase did you give for it?—Twenty-two or 22 1 years’ pur¬ chase, I think. 1758. Do you think that land is actually un¬ marketable in Westmeath ?—I think so ; I knoAv tAvo estates that would be sold if anything like a fair price could be got, but I think nobody Avould bid for them. 1759. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland .] Were the magistrates in Westmeath anxious at the time of Mr. Fetherston’s murder for the poAver of taking up those Ribbonmen under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act?—They A\ere at all times very anxious to get some of the chief men 1760. Were you anxious at that time?—Of course avc were. 1761. Did you express that anxiety to the Government at that time, or Avas it expressed to the Government?—I think avc felt certain that the Government could not act upon it. 1762. Did you express your desire to the Go¬ vernment ?—What Avould have been the use if Ave thought that they had not the poAver ? 1763. Did not you say that some of the magis¬ trates asked the Government to apply the sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act to the Ribbon districts, under the supposition that it applied to such offences?—Yes. 1764. Was not that at the time of Mr. Fetherston’s murder?—I could not put a date to it; but I think it Avould have been on account of the great sensation caused by the murder. 1765. The magistrates were told by the officials of the Government that the Act did not apply to such cases?—They Avere told by some one Avho ought to know ; I cannot name the party, but I think that it was the Crown Solicitor, that the Act Avould not apply. 1766. Did you ever knoAV any estates Avith- drawn from the Encumbered Estates Court in Westmeath on account of the petitioner not being able to obtain a fair price ?—I think not; Ave have had very feAV sales under the Encum¬ bered Estates Court in Westmeath. 1767. Mr. Gregory.'] Has there been any attempt upon the part of landowners in Westmeath to take advantage of the clauses of the Land Act ? —I do not know anything about it; Ave have never had a case. 1768. Mr. Magvire.] You told the Committee that every night people were out armed ; why do not the constabulary take up those people Avho are caught out armed at night ?—They cannot do everything. Patrolling has been going on in my county ; the magistrates have been hard Avorked and the police have been walked off their legs; but I cannot speak to why they are not taken up. 1769. But you say that those people do go out armed at night; if you knoAv that of your OAvn knoAvledge, can you say Avhy they are not taken up by the police ?—The police do their best, but they cannot do impossibilities; five or six men in a barrack, hampered with regulations as to Iioav many they are to leave in the barracks, and hoAV many are to go out, have but a small chance of apprehending them. 1770. You referred, in some Avay, to the value of detectives; are you satisfied Avith the organi¬ sation SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 69 sation of the police force as applied to the detec¬ tion of crime ?—It is a splendid force, and a very fine military force; but it is perfectly useless for the detection of crime. 1771. Do you think that its military organi¬ sation is a great advantage?—I think that its military organisation destroys its value for the purpose. 1772. Mr. Maguire.^ Can you suggest any alteration in the organisation of the police force, which will have the effect of rendering it more efficient for the detection of crime ?—The police force is essentially unsuitable for the detection of crime ; its very military character impairs its usefulness in that respect; they are a splendid body of men, the best conducted body in the world. I have no hesitation in saying, Let any man put a regiment of soldiers down in fives and sixes all over the face of the country, and see whether they would conduct themselves half as well as the police force of Ireland do ; but they are unfit for the detection of crime. 1773. Are there no detectives, such as we un¬ derstand by that term in England, sent to you ?— There are what we call the “ disposable men,” and two or three of them are sent into the country. A man comes down with his hair cut short behind, and his very walk is recognised at the end of a mile upon the road. The country people immediately give the sign, and say, “What does that fellow want here ? where does he come from?” I have often stopped a man upon the road who did not think I would recognise him, and have said, “ You are a disposable man; where are you going to ; where are you staying;” and the country people are sharper than I am. 1774. And you think that the system of de¬ tective police should be improved ?—Certainly. 1775. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.~\ Are you aware that detectives have been sent down to Westmeath who are not drilled men, and have not their hair cut short behind, and who would not be recognised at the end of a mile by their military tread?—I have heard that. 1776. Do you believe it ?—I do not know whether to believe it or disbelieve it, but the product seems very small indeed. The Rev. James Crofton, called in; and Examined. 1777. Chairman .] You have some property in the county of Westmeath, I believe?—lam trustee to a very small property in Westmeath for my children and sister-in-law. 1778. You do not reside in Westmeath ?—No; I reside at Dunlear, in the county of Louth. 1779. Some distance from the property?—It is about 90 miles by train, and 40 miles by road. 1780. Have you received threatening letters ? —Never. 1781. You have been shot at?—I was shot at last March; five shots were fired at me. 1782. But you were not threatened first ?—No, there was not even that courtesy shown me. 1783. Do you know why you were shot at?— Perfectly ; I was raising the rents. 1784. You were raising, or had raised the rents ?—I raised one man’s rent, and I intended raising the rest, but they would not pay me. I wish to explain the circumstances to the Com¬ mittee. In the year 1839, they paid, on the average, 1 /. 10 s. 3 d. for the land ; my father- in-law reduced the rent, and before they fired at me it was 1 /. 2 s. 11 d. The farms had im¬ proved. I hold land myself, and I was per¬ fectly well aware that they ought to pay more rent than they did in 1839. I only wanted to raise them to l l. 6 s.; and the reason I fixed upon that sum was, not that I believed it to be the full value of the land, but I held a farm from Mr. Smith Barry, of Cork, and that was the proportion over the Government valuation that I paid myself, and I wished to do to others precisely as I was satisfied others should do to me, and so satisfied am I with my rent that if Mr. Smith Barry had another farm to let at the same rent, I would be very glad to have it, and thank him for giving; me the farm. O o m 1785. In consequence of these proceedings vou were on bad terms with the tenants ?—I was very polite. I never lose my temper. 1786. You say that you were not threatened. Did you know that you were in any danger ?— No; 10 minutes before I was fired at I went into the house to give a poor woman 1 1. ; her husband was sick. 0.50. 1787. You had not been cautioned ?—No ; not at all. 1788. Were these five shots all fired on one occasion ?—In a moment. I was walking along the road, it was eight in the evening, and dark, and two fellows came up, meeting me, and had hardly passed me when I felt a rap upon the shoulder, and heard the report of a revolver; so unpre¬ pared was I for it, that I turned round and said, “ You fools, what are you firing at me for ? ” I thought they took me for a gentleman in the neighbourhood who had police guarding him ; and they fired two revolvers at me, and missed me ; and then I turned and walked on the way I was going, and one came after me, fired at me again, and missed me, and I turned on that fellow ; he was a fellow about 25 years of age, and he escaped me. I turned again to go on my road, and then the second man turned to me in the ditch and fired at me, and he missed me. 1789. You were not wounded severely, I believe?—No, only bruised. 1790. The powder was bad?—No doubt; or the revolver was no good. 1791. Waters was shot for what cause?— Waters was employed by my attorney to serve an ejectment on the father of the famous Captain Duffy. 1792. Is Duffy one of your tenants?—He is the son. 1793. Waters was shortly after that shot?— No; it was in the month of December that Waters was shot. 1794. Shortly after serving the notice?—About four days before the trial was to come on he w T as shot. 1795. Do you believe this to have been a murder planned by the Ribbon Society ?—Of course ; I cannot tell, but it is the impression on my mind that he was shot simply because he served that notice of ejectment. He was a process- server, and other papers that were in his pocket were not taken, but the book which contained the entry of the ejectment service was taken away. 1796. Sir G. Grey.~\ The object was to prevent I 3 evidence M v.Hochfort Boyd. ■23 March 1871. Rev. J. Crofton. 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. J. Crofton. 23 March 1871. evidence being given of service at the trial ?— Yes, of course. 1797. Chairman .] Do you believe you were shot at by the order of the Ribbon Society ?—Yes; I suppose when the captain gave the order it might be said to be the order of the society; there is no disguising the thing; it is a fight between me and the captain of the Ribbonmen. • 1798. How do you know it is not a fight between you and your own tenant?-—Because that man is well known by the name of Captain Duffy, and by no other name. 1799. Cases of agrarian outrage of this kind have happened frequently, have they not, in other parts of Ireland, in Tipperary for instance ?— They were some in Tipperary, but I believe they are pretty quiet there now. 1800. But they were not generally traced to the operations of a secret society, were they; is it not supposed that these outrages were usually committed by the man himself who felt ag¬ grieved ?—In Ireland we generally consider that there is a ramification of the thing, but there it is quieter at one time than another. 1801. You have no doubt in your mind that a secret society exists in Westmeath?—I have not the least doubt at all of it ; it is rampant in Westmeath. 1802. You know pretty well who are the leaders of it ?—I suspect them; I cannot prove them to be the leaders of it. 1803. Have you ever considered what measures will be necessary to put a stop to this organisa¬ tion ?—I think it can very easily be put a stop to, if the Lord Lieutenant is allowed to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act over small districts by way of experiment, and if the Land Act is sus¬ pended along with the Habeas Corpus Act, and the time for serving notice to quit, is limited to a month; and, of course, the usual time for notice of ejectment; then when the men are put out, the police tax should be imposed upon any town- lands where they are harboured. They would then be driven into the poorhouse. 1804. Do you refer to the whole of the people of the townland ?—The people of the townland. The Lord Lieutenant will be well informed what townlands it should be done upon; when that is done, if I have any notices to serve, I will lend my aid with all my heart to do that upon one condition, that the Government then steps in and gives these men with their families free passages to America, or, at least, to Canada; chat they shall be sent where land is offered, and pressed upon people, and there each man, no matter what he would be entitled to get at home, gets 70 l. given to him in Canada to set him up; let the money be paid, half by the county, and half by the landlord. 1805. Who is it that you suggest should be sent to Canada ?—The persons who are ejected; it will depend upon the Lord Lieutenant what townlands he suspended the Habeas Corpus Act over, lie would not do that without proper in¬ formation that the people in those townlands were the disturbers of the county, and in three months you would have Westmeath as quiet as it could be. 1806. You propose that the inhabitants of small townlands, where an outrage takes place, should be deported to Canada ?■—I do. 1807. At the public expense ?—No ; let the landlords pay half and the county pay half. The landlord will be benefited by getting rid of them, and the county will be benefited by getting rid of them also, and the men themselves will be benefited. 1808. I believe you have served a notice to quit upon Duffy, after all, have you not?—I was obliged to do it myself. I could not get the pro¬ cess-servers in Westmeath to serve Duffy with a notice, and I was obliged to turn process-server myself, and billsticker. I went three days run¬ ning with great protection from the police to the house. I could find no one there, and I then stuck up a notice ujion the church door and upon the chapel door, and house door. 1809. Did you see the tenant ?—No ; we searched every place for the tenant, but we could not get him. 1810. Are you under the protection of the police at home ?—Y^es ; even in the quiet place of Louth ; there are two policemen relieved every three hours watching me. If I go to a fair, the police follow me, and protect me. 1811. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.] You are not afraid of the Louth people ?—Not in the least. When I went back to Dunbar, my own parish priest and half of the town were up at the station to meet me as a sort of ovation; they know per¬ fectly well from 30 years’ experience of me that I am neither doing anything harsh nor cruel. 1812. Chairman.'] You have some farms in your own occupation in Westmeath, have you not ?—I have some farms that I hold from M r. Smith Barry, but not in Westmeath, and I pay more rent than I am asking my tenants for, but I wanted to put them on the same ground pre¬ cisely as I am on with regard to the Government valuation. 1813. Will you tell the Committee what is the usual rate of wages in the county of Westmeath ? —I do not know anything about the rate of wages in Westmeath. 1814. Mr. Chichester Fortescue.] What amount of increased rent were you requiring from this tenant whom you had to serve in person, as you told the Committee?—13 5. 6 d. per half year; that was the whole amount of increase, and he could pretty well afford to pay it, for he offered to drive me on his jaunting car from Tyrrell’s Pass to Mullingar, for the purpose of saving me 5 5. 1815. How much land would his father hold? —Twentv-three or 24 acres. 1816. Your notice to qutit, which the unfor¬ tunate man Waters tried to serve, and which you have since served yourself, was in consequence of the tenant’s refusal to pay a small increase of rent ?—Exactly. 1817. You were not turning him out for any other reason?—Now I am. 1818. No doubt, but originally, you were not? —Had he not shot Waters, I would not have turned him out. Here is a letter from the gentle- man himself, saying that he would settle with me ( J ■producing a letter ). 1819. I want to know Avhether I am right in my interpretation of the recommendation which you made just now to the Committee; I under¬ stand you to mean that if the Lord Lieutenant had the power of arresting a few of those persons under his warrant, you are not in favour of sim¬ ply detaining them in gaol, but having arrested them under that power you would wish him to send them and their families at the public expense to SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 7 ] to Canada ?—I would not like to see that done; what I say ought to be done, is this : give the Lord Lieutenant a power of suspending the Habeas Corpus Act over a small district, even a townland, or two or three townlands, no matter where they are scattered; the police will tell him where the troublesome people reside, and then whatever power the Lord Lieutenant gets, let him have the poiver of suspending the Land Act at the same time. 1820. I am not going into that. The power you refer to is simply the power of arrest with¬ out trial, but when those parties have been arrested under this warrant, what is the Lord Lieutenant to do with them ; in your opinion, is he to keep them in prison, or to send them olf? —If he were to keep them in prison, the moment they came out they would be 10 times worse. 1821. Then the Lord Lieutenant is to send them to America ?—I would recommend any plan of sending them to America. Perhaps it would be rather a serious thing to give the Lord Lieu¬ tenant power to send them to America. 1822. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland '.] What do you think would be the effect of a simple sus¬ pension of the Habeas Corpus Act for two years, and then to let the men out into Westmeath again ?—The result of that would be that they would come out foaming at the mouth like mad dogs. 1823. Mr. Gregory .] Do you think that you will be able to let that farm of yours, supposing you eject this man ?—Certainly not; no man in Westmeath would dare take it. I was politely turned out of the “ Greville Arm’s” in Mullin¬ gar ; the widow who keeps it was actually afraid to keep me there. In addition, I would suggest that the police should be allowed to serve all notices, for that would save a great deal of blood¬ shed. 0 . 50 . 14 Rev. J. Crofton . 23 March 1871. 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Friday , ‘llth March 1871 . MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Bruen. Mr. Disraeli. Mr. Downing. Mr. Chichester Fortescue. Mr. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Russell Gurney. Mr. Hardy. The Marquis of Ilartington. Mr. James. Mr. Maguire. Colonel Wilson Patten. Mr. Pemberton. Mr. Plunket. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock. The Solicitor General for Ireland. The Marquis of HARTINGTON, in the Chair. Mr. William Mooney, called in; and Examined. Mr. Mooney. 2d. March 1871. 1824 . Chairman .] Wiiat office do you hold in Ireland ? —I am Clerk of the Crown. 1825 . For what county ?—For the county of Westmeath. 1826. How long have vou held that office ?— For about nine years. 1827. The Solicitor General for Ireland .] I believe that that is a permanent office ?—Yes, it is. 1828. A non-political one ?—Quite so. 1829. Will you inform the Committee what are the duties of the office of clerk of the Crown ? —I have merely to receive from the magistrates' clerks copies of informations which are returned for trial, or rather the original depositions, to furnish copies of them to the Crown solicitor, and to record the verdicts of the juries at the assizes. 1830. In point of fact you sit at the assizes under the judge as a sort of judge’s registrar upon the criminal side of the court ?—Quite so. 1831. I believe you are also a practising attorney and solicitor in large practice in West¬ meath, Dublin, and the adjoining counties?—I am. 1832. And your practice extends among all classes of the community, does it not ?—It does. 1833. How long have you been in practice as a solicitor and attorney ?—More than 20 years. 1834. And you have acquired a considerable knowledge of the people around Mullingar and Westmeath ?—I have. 1835. Are you aware of the existence of a society called the Ribbon Society, in the county of Westmeath ?—I believe that such a society exists. 1836. According to your information or know¬ ledge, has it any political or religious significance at all ?—In my opinion, none whatever. 1837. According to your judgment it partakes more of the nature of a social conspiracy ?—En¬ tirely so. 1838. When you first became acquainted with that society, from general rumour and other sources of information, what was its principal object and aim ?—Its principal object and aim was to prevent landlords from ejecting small tenants or from raising their rents. 1839. Are you of opinion that it has extended the scope of its operations of late years?—It has. 1840. It now, I believe, interferes in nearly every relation of life, in that of master and ser¬ vant, and other matters of that sort ?—It does. 1841. Has the society given up interference in questions of property between landlord and tenant, or has it embraced the other objects as well ?—I should require to explain that. My idea of it is that dating from or about the murder of the late Mr. Fetherston, that was in the spring of 1868 ; it was then that it assumed a new character, and I think that it is to a con¬ siderable extent owing to the fact that no provo¬ cation has been received from the landlords, inas¬ much as there have been practically no evictions, and no attempts to raise rent since that time. 1842. I suppose that during the last few years you have been aware of threatening letters having been received ?—They have been very numerous indeed. 1843. Do those threatening letters principally relate to land ?—They do. 1844. Is there any dissatisfaction felt among the members of the fraternity with reference to using land for grass land instead of for agricul¬ tural purposes?—There is, but that applies much more to the county of Meath than to the county of Westmeath. 1845. Do you believe that the Ribbon con¬ spiracy exists in Meath, and in the portions adjoining Westmeath?—Yes. 1846. Do you know King’s County ?—I do. 1847. Do you know the Barony of Kil- coursey?—I do. 1848. Do you believe Ribbonism exists in parts of King’s County ?—I do. 1849. That is the part of King’s County bordering on the county of Westmeath?—Yes. I should say, with respect to the general ques¬ tion, that I have heard it doubted whether there is an executive and a central authority of the Ribbon Society; my own opinion is that there is, but I have heard it very much doubted, and I have 73 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). I have heard it stated that it is merely persons in different parts of the country who have the command of bad characters to execute their own decrees. 1850. Are vou aware whether the Ribbon •/ conspiracy interferes in tire matter of servants, and herds, and people of that class ?—I think 80 . 1851. Why are you of opinion that there is a central authority ?—My reason for that is this, that unless there was some central authority I cannot conceive how it is possible that strangers could be brought from a distance to commit outrages, in the result of which they themselves individually can have no interest whatever. I think that that requires combination, and a very perfect combination. 1852. Have you any idea where the central authority is situated ?—Not the remotest. 1853. Have you any idea whether it is situated in Westmeath, or beyond the boundaries of W estmeath ?—I have not the slightest idea. 1854. Have you received any threatening letters yourself?—I have. 1855. Was that in relation to land?—It, was, 1856. Was that in your capacity of landlord or as a professional man ?—As a professional man. 1857- For doing what?—I applied in Novem¬ ber 1869, for payment of rent. The tenants to whom I refer had previously sent a memorial to their landlord, which was half threat and half entreaty, requesting him to reduce the rent to the standard at which it had existed 15 or 16 years ago; he did not reply to the memorial, but instructed me in November 1869, to inform three or four of the principal of the tenants, that if they did not pay the half year’s rent that was due the previous May, he would take proceedings to enforce the entire year’s rent; it was in answer to that application that I got one of those threatening letters. 1858. Will you produce that letter ?—I will; it is dated the 28th November 1869. 1859. It is in a sort of printed character I see ? — It is, and it is remarkably well written ; it is not written by an illiterate person—( Letter pro¬ duced and read). 1860. That letter is posted at Athlone?— It is. 1861. There are some eccentricities of spelling in that letter, I see ?—That is done purposely, I think, by the man who wrote the letter ; there are only two or three words mis-spelt in it. 1862. Do you consider that that was intended as a serious threat ?—It is very difficult to tell; it is almost impossible to tell, but my opinion is that the writer of that letter did not intend to do personal injury to me, but that his object was to endeavour to frighten the landlord, who was a non- resident proprietor. 1863. Where did the landlord live? — In London. 1864. I believe one portion of Athlone is in Westmeath.?—Yes; the River Shannon divides at Athlone the counties of Westmeath and Ros¬ common. 1865. Was that letter sent to you merely for exercising the ordinary duties of your profes¬ sion ?—Yes, it was for writing a letter, request¬ ing the tenants to pay their half-year’s rent due the previous 1st of May. 1866. Does this conspiracy, in your judgment, 0.50. extend, over the whole of Whstmeath ?—It does in my opinion. 186 1 . And are there parts of M estmeath worse than others, as far as the conspiracy is concerned, in your judgment ?—I think there are. 1868. Does it extend to the portion of Meath adjoining Westmeath ?—Yes, I think it does. 1869. And to the portion of the King’s County also adjoining Westmeath ?—Yes, I think it does. 1870. Do you know the county of Meath very well?—Yes, I do. 1871. Do you know the portion of Meath bordering on the sea ?—Yes. 1872. Is that part, in your opinion, quiet and well disposed ?—It is. 1873. You state that you know the portion of King’s County adjoining Westmeath ?—Yes ; I think the portions which are the worst are the portions adjoining Westmeath. 1874. Did it ever occur to you to speculate on the causes that led to this state of things?—I have no doubt that the Ribbon organisation w r as principally intended to control the acts of the landlords. 1875. That was the origin of it, was it?—Yes, and I have no doubt that their acts, as against landlords, had the sympathy of the tenant class generally, including the large tenants. 1876. You say, in point of fact, that men sympathised with the Ribbon organisation who were not members of it?—Yes, most decidedly. 1877. And they were not inclined to give information to the executive Government ?— Certainly not. 1878. Or to take any part in procuring any evidence for the detection of Ribbonism ?— Certainly not. My opinion is, that those large tenants, and those persons of whom I have spoken, a great many of whom had, most un¬ questionably nothing in the world to do with the organisation, considered that not having any redress by law in the event of their own land¬ lords either dispossessing them, or raising the rents, the acts of the organisation had the effect of preventing their landlords from exercising the strict rights of property in their own regard. 1879. They considered it a check upon eviction?—They considered the acts of -the organisation a check upon eviction or the raising of rents. 1880. I suppose they object as much to raising the rents as to being turned out of their land ?— Nearly as much. 1881. Do you think the population have in any way yielded or submitted to the demands of the Ribbonmen ?—Yes, I have no doubt they r have. 1882. Do you consider that the landlord class have submitted to the demand of the Ribbon- men?—Yes, I think so, just as much as the tenants. 1883. In what way, for instance ?—Of course when I mention this I am not stating a matter within my own knowledge. 1884. Of course the Committee understand that you are only stating your belief and opinion ? —Yes, what is popularly supposed in the country. I think the landlords are afraid of the organi¬ sation. 1885. Is there a system of terrorism prevalent which extends over the districts ?—I think there K is Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871. 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871. is a system of terrorism prevalent, and it is sup¬ posed that men of considerable influence retain persons who are supposed to be Ribbonmen in their confidential employment. I am not stating this as a matter of fact. I wish to be under¬ stood that I do not cast any reflection upon any person for doing it, but that is supposed to be done. 1886. With what object is it supposed that they retain those men in their employ ?—To en¬ sure their own protection ; and that if there is anything going wrong they will hear about it. 1887. In what capacity are those men em¬ ployed who are connected with the Ribbon organisation, and who are thus retained by men of higher station than themselves? — As herds very often, and stewards. 1888. Do you believe that there are any gentlemen of position and influence in Westmeath who retain in their employ herds or stewards whom they believe to be Ribbonmen ?—They have them in their employment. They are known to be Ribbonmen, or are supposed to be Ribbonmen ; but I will not undertake to say that the parties themselves know that. 1889. Are you aware whether men connected Avith the Ribbon conspiracy have ever in any way complained of the administration of justice at all in their localities ?—Quite the contrary. 1890. How do you explain that; you state that they do not complain ?—No ; I think that the svstem of terror has extended to the acts of 4/ the magistrates as such frequently. 1891. Do you mean by that that they favour men who are Ribbonmen ?—It is supposed that they frequently get off’ more tenderly than people who are not tainted with Ribbonism; it is the popular belief that that sometimes occurs, but I do not vouch for the fact from my own knowledge. 1892. Do you think that that feeling tends to increase and strengthen the Ribbon organisation ? — I have not the slightest doubt in the world that it does. 1893. Do you think that a man by joining himself to a confederation of that kind imagines that he acquires a potential Amice in the regula¬ tion of affairs ?—Yes, I do. 1894. Have you turned your attention at all to the consideration of the best remedies for this state of things?—I have; I have thought over the matter frequently. 1895. You live in Mullingar, do you not?—I live about a mile from the toAvnof Mullingar; I have lived there for a long time. 1896. For how many years have you lived there ?—I have lived permanently for the last 15 years, in the very centre of this district. I Avish to mention also that Avith respect to Rib¬ bonism affecting the acts of magistrates, that I do not give that as more than the popular feel¬ ings. I have not been in a petty sessions court more than once in 12 months. I only say that there is a feeling of the kind abroad. 1897. You have turned your attention, you say, to the means of repressing that evil?—Yes, I have. 1898. What do you consider Avould be the best means of applying a remedy ?—My opinion has always been that an efficient police force, and a fearless magistracy, are quite capable of deal¬ ing Avith the conspiracy. 1899. What do you mean by an efficient police force ?— I consider that the present police force is not a police force at all, it is a military force. 1900. Do you think that its military organisa¬ tion detracts from its efficiency in tracking and detecting crime ?—I do ; the constabulary officers are also really military officers, and they think as military men; they assume all the airs and im¬ portance of officers of the line, Avith a great many exceptions, of course. 1901. You are speaking of the general rule?— Yes ; as a general rule. They are frequently the sons of persons of good families, and they go into the force after passing a competitive examination, and certainly they are not, and, in my opinion, they do not consider themselves, as detective or preventive officers. 1902. Do you think that they consider that sort of Avork below them ?—I do; and then as regards the constabulary, they act in bodies more or less, and are obliged to take orders for every¬ thing. If anything occurs the matter is reported to one officer, and he reports it to his superior, and so it goes on. They do not act individually. 1903. You think that the force, so far as its authority is concerned, is too much centralised ? —I think so; it is too much of a military force. As regards this conspiracy, assuming that it exists, and that the members of it are numerous, they are, beyond all question, from the humbler classes, and it is inconceivable, in my mind, that an efficient police force, provided with money to procure private information, could not procure it so as to anticipate the commission of outrages, or to catch the offenders almost in the act. I am perfectly aware that after a murder, or after the perpetration of any serious outrage, no amount of money Avill induce a man to come on the table to give evidence ; but, as I said before, it is inconceivable to me that a proper detectAe officer, provided Avith money, and each man acting to a certain extent upon his own respon¬ sibility, and using his OAvn ingenuity, would be unable to get private information which Avould frequently enable him to defeat the intentions of the conspirators. 1904. Sir G. Grey.~\ You refer to intended crime ?—To intended crime. 1905. The Solicitor General for Ireland. J Do you knoAv that such information has been ob¬ tained?— Yes. 1906. And that it has been effective?—Yes, it has prevented crime. Sometimes. 1907. Do you know that money is placed at the disposal of the police ?—I have heard so. 1908. And that it has been effectively used ? —Yes, occasionally; but unless the policemen will mingle with the people, and use their inge¬ nuity to procure private information from them, they will not get it, because the people will not come, except in rare instances, to the police to give information. 1909. When you say “mingle with the people,” do you mean Avhen they are in uniform ? —No, that Avould be no use. 1910. But Avhen they are acting as detectAes? —Yes. 1911. So as not to be recognised as policemen ? —Yes. 1912. Do you think that that is possible to be done ?— Yes, I do. 1913. And not to be recognised as members of the police force? —Yes; I think it is quite possible for a policeman, Avhether he is knoAvn in the 75 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). the country, or whether he is not, by some means or other to get into communication with a person likely to give him information. 1914. You are of opinion that a policeman stationed at Mullingar, or any of the adjacent stations round Mullingar, dressed as an ordinary countryman, could mix with the people at the fairs and markets, and get information from them ; is that what you mean to state to the Committee ?—No, that is not what I mean. 1915. Do you refer to a stranger policeman? —I do not care whether he is a local or a stran¬ ger policeman; but I think whether a meeting is to take place by night or day a clever police¬ man could bring it about. 1916. So as seriously to interfere with the acts of the conspirators ?—Yes. 1917. Do you mean that those men should be in the character of detectives ?—1 do ; I think that the duty of a policeman, as distinguished from that of a military man, is that he should himself endeavour to search out crime. 1918. Do you mean that these men are to act purely detectively ?—I think there ought to be a detective machinery attached to the police. 1919. When you say that the police should mix with the people, I . do not understand you to say that they should mix with them as police¬ men ?—No. 1920. And that they should not mix with them as policemen in the garb of civilians ?— No. 1921. But that they should be able to mix with them upon other terms ?—Certainly they should. 1922. Could that be done by policemen quartered in Mullingar, or in that locality ?—In my opinion it could. What I wish to convey to the Committee is, that in my opinion a police¬ man in Westmeath should act as such, contra¬ distinguished from a soldier, and that he should individually, and to some extent on his own responsibility, and using his own wits and in¬ genuity, endeavour to detect and track out cri¬ minals, and also, by obtaining information, en¬ deavour to anticipate and prevent crime. I should have supposed that every one would have a general idea of what a perfectly efficient policeman, whether detective or not, should do ; but the Committee can hardly expect me to go into every detail of what such a man should do and what he should avoid doing, so as to be suc¬ cessful in his calling. 1923. I should have thought the countrymen would have known the policemen they had been in the habit of seeing? — Yes, certainly they would, but you can imagine, no doubt, a police¬ man sending a messenger, or by some other means asking a party who could give information, to have an interview with him at some out of the way place of the country. 1924. But would not the party then have an interview with the policeman in his character ol policeman?—Yes ; but I understood you to ask whether that could be done publicly, which is a very different thing. 1925. Do you know whether detectives have been made use of in Westmeath ?—I have heard that after some great outrage they have been sent down to procure evidence to establish a conviction in that particular case, but I never 0.50. have heard that they have been employed in Westmeath as a system. 1926. But might not men have been employed on the part of the police, as detectives in West¬ meath, for tracking out crime, without coming to your knowledge ?—Certainly; it is no part of my business to inquire ; it may have been done for all I know. 1927. Do you think that a military police force has any advantages in a place like Westmeath ? —I think it has immense advantages when the object is to repress an insurrectionary movement. 1928. But you think that for the detection of crime a military force is not necessary at all ?—I will not say that there are never events which do not partake of an insurrectionary character in which the police, as a military force, are not very useful. 1929. They are very useful in that capacity, are they not?—They were formerly, but they have not been so much called upon recently. 1930. What would you suggest as an alteration in the police force to make it as efficient as you say it should be, according to your own ideas ?— I think I have given the Committee my views already; my idea is, that there should be a de¬ tective department connected with the present existing force, and that those men should have authority to use their wits. 1931. Do you mean a local detective force ?— I do. 1932. Not merely men sent down from Dub¬ lin after a crime has been committed ?—No, that is of no use ; they might as well stay there. 1933. Are you aware that there is a detective force connected with the constabulary, presided over by efficient officers?—I have heard that, but my belief is, that they are only sent down occasionally; there is no permanent detective force, for instance, in the county of Meath or Westmeath that l am aware of. 1934. But do you not think that a permanent detective force stationed in the county of Meath or Westmeath would very soon become inefficient from being known to the country people?—It would, more or less, but those men could be changed from time to time. I wish to state that the existing police force, even without a separate detective system, if properly remodelled, and if the men were made to act as policemen, according to the usual acceptation of that word, a great im¬ provement might be effected. It is to the orga¬ nisation of the force, and not to the men com¬ posing it, that I object. 1935. What did you mean by saying when you talked about the police force “ and a fearless magistracy ” ? — I mean that the magistrates should deal with every case brought before them regardless of the question of Bibbonism ; that there should be no fear of it upon their minds. 1936. Do you think that there is such a fear existing at present?—I do not say it always exists, but I believe in the existence of it. 1937. Have there ever been any attempts in the county, to your knowledge, to defeat this organisation by the efforts of the well-disposed respectable classes? — There never has been. 1938. Do you think that such a thing would be possible at the present time ?—I think it was quite impossible heretofore. 1939. What do you mean by “ heretofore ”?— I mentioned in the early part of my examination that I considered that a large portion of the k 2 population. fJ Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871. 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN EEFORE TIIE Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871 . population, even the respectable portion of it, sym¬ pathised with the objects of Ribbonism, or rather that they thought they tended to their advantage in preventing the landlords from exercising the rights of property in their own regard. I think that at the present time, inasmuch as the law, owing to a recent change which has been made in it, affords considerable protection to the tenants, it is more likely that a combination to resist the Ribbon Society could be formed than heretofore; whether it could or not is mere matter of speculation. 1940. By the change in the law you refer to the Land Act ?—I do. 1941. Do you think there has been a better feeling between the tenant and the landlord since the passing of the Land Act ?—I think so; 1 know that a tenant now receiving notice to quit, does not regard it with the same consterna¬ tion as heretofore. He now at once consults with reference to what steps he should take for the purpose of being paid the compensation that the law affords him. 1942. Consults whom ?—He takes professional advice. 1943. You think that that is preferable to con¬ sulting the Ribbon organisation?—Yes. 194 4. In former days they looked to the Ribbon organisation instead of to professional advice ?—They did ; there was no use in taking professional advice ; the professional man could do nothing whatever for them. 1945. Why was that?—The professional man could do nothing for them once the tenancy was determined. 1946. Once the tenancy was determined by notice to quit, there was no defence to the eject¬ ment ?—Rone whatever. 1947. Row he has a claim to compensation ?— There is a claim to compensation now, and the two cases are heard together, or rather the claim for compensation is an admission upon the part of the tenant to the right of the landlord to eject, and the two cases are usually heard at the same time. 1948. You mean that the claim of the land¬ lord against the tenant, and the counter claim of the tenant against the landlord, are heard by the same chairman and disposed of at the same time ? —They are. 1949. Have you ever considered whether the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would be any remedy for the evils that existed ?—If the police force or the resident magistrates are quite satisfied that they know the leaders of this organisation, of course it would be a very power¬ ful weapon in their hands. 1950. Are you of opinion that it would bring about permanent good results ?—A good deal de¬ pends upon the length of time during which the suspension should take place. 1951. Supposing the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended for two years, do you think that good effects would take place?—As I said before I think it would be a very powerful weapon, and assuming that these characters are known, so that there can be no mistake about them, it might do some good. 1952. Do you think, on the other hand, if a mistake were made, and men were apprehended upon suspicion, and were remanded, that would have a bad effect?—It would have a very bad effect. There might perhaps be some machinery devised by which parties arrested could obtain a hearing before some impartial tribunal; I do not know whether that is possible or not. 1953. Do you think that it would be advisable if it could be adopted?—Yes. 1954. That is, that after the police had selected some well known man who was supposed to be a Ribbonman, when the powers of the Habeas Corpus Act were suspended, he should have the opportunity of having his case heard, to show, if he could, that he was arrested upon insufficient evidence ?—Yes : I do not say that that is prac¬ ticable, but if practicable it would be a very good thing; I think that if the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, it should be known to the public that no warrant would be issued by the * Lord Lieutenant until the law officers of the Crown had certified that they were satisfied upon the evidence that the person was a proper person to be arrested. 1955. What kind of evidence do you refer to ?—I could not say that; I only suggested that it should be known to the public that the Lord Lieutenant’s warrant should not be issued until there had been a certificate from the law officers of the Crown that the person arrested w r as a proper subject for the application of the warrant. 1956. Would you consider it right to apply this remedy; the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in the present state of the county, without attempting some other plan, such as you have suggested first ?—I could not say that the remodelling of the police force, if it ever be remodelled (it has been suggested several times, and the more it has been suggested the more military the force has become, and it is becoming more military every day), the remodelling of the police force, I say, would be a work of time, even supposing that the authorities are disposed to remodel it at all. 1957. Do you not think that a present remedy could be brought to bear by the re-organisation of the police force ?—I am not prepared to sav that. 1958. Al ou say "that you have known West¬ meath for 20 years?—Yes. 1959. During all that time has Ribbonism pre¬ vailed there ?—I should think it has, decidedly. Ribbon outrages, even during my own recollec¬ tion, were a great deal more numerous formerly than they have been latterly. They were formerly a great deal more numerous, but I also think that it was formerly a great deal more easy to get evidence. 1960. To what do you attribute the increased difficulty of getting evidence ?—I think that it must be owing to an idea of the increased power of the Ribbon organisation to carry into effect their decrees against persons who give evidence. 1961. W’fis there always within your memory a difficulty in obtaining evidence?—Rot always so much as at present. 1962. That difficulty has increased much of late years?—Yes. 1963. And you attribute that increase to the fear inspired by this organisation ?—Yes, I do. 1964. Take AY estmeath as a whole, compared to what it was 20 years ago, is the present condition of the county better or worse than it was then ?—It has been worse within the last couple of years as I mentioned, because now the landlords having, to a certain extent, succumbed to the Ribbon influ¬ ence, parties are endeavouring to get themselves replaced SELECT COMMITTEE OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 77 replaced in tlie possession oi land which the\ had either voluntarily parted, or been evicted iiom, 10, 15, 20 , or 30 years ago. I know a case in which a person was in possession of land for 1 0 years, and he got notice on pain oi death to give it up. 1965. Have you had any opportunity oi know¬ ing what has been the working of the i eace Preservation Act?—I have. 1966. I suppose you have had some experience in your capacity as clerk of the Crown, sitting in court, and from the documents coming through your hands, of knowing the working oi the sec¬ tion, giving compensation to the representatives of the victims in cases of murder?—I have. 1967. Has the section operated well or ill in your opinion?—Only two cases have come before the grand jury; one was for the murder of the process server, W aters, and the other was ior the murder of Messrs. Perry’s steward, Dowling. I consider that the principle of the act is good, but that the sums granted as compensation, having regard to the position in life oi the par¬ ties, were enormously large. 1968. How much was awarded in Dowling’s case ?—£. 800. 1969. To his widow?—Yes, to his widow, and the payment of it was to be placed upon the barony of Moycashel, and if it had been Mr. Perry instead of his steward that was murdered, and the grand jury had meted out compensation in that case upon the same scale, the amount would, beyond doubt, have entirely broken every small tenant in the barony oi Moycashel. 1970. You mean if the same proportion nad been observed in meting out the sums ?—Y es. 1971. How much was awarded in Waters’s case ?—£. 325. 1972. To his mother ?—Yes, to his mother. 1973. Upon what district of the county was that placed?—Upon the parish of Mullingar. 1974. Does that include the town of Mullin¬ gar ?—It does. 1975. How much will the town ol Mullingar have to pay?—I could not say, not knowing the valuation. 1976. Are you of opinion that that will have a good effect ?—It would be very difficult to say ; I think that if the awards were moderate, the principle would not be objected to, but I think that it is an immense hardship upon the people to have to pay such large sums. 1977. Do you think that the imposition of that sum of money upon the parish of Mullingar would have a deterrent effect ? — I think it is. ex¬ tremely probable that if the persons, who either committed the murder or instigated it, were aware that the district would have to pa} so large a sum for the murder of the process server, it might possibly not have taken place. 1978. Do you think that it will have a good effect in future ?—It may, but I think that those people who are well disposed are suffering so enormously from the taxation that, unless there be either a stop put to the outrages or to the taxation, they will be utterly ruined. I think that, in principle, it is '» reasonable that the representatives of a person who is murdered, in consequence of an agrarian conspiracy, should be reasonably compensated, and in the same way, I think, it is just that a man who has been maimed or injured should receive reasonable compensation. I think also that pay¬ ing these compensations off the districts involved 0.50. has a deterrent effect in this way, that levying compensation for malicious injury to property is calculated also to have a deterrent effect of pre¬ venting outrages of that character; but I think that there certainly ought to be a limitation of amount imposed by Statute. 1979. Will you give the Committee your views upon the operation of the extra police tax? —I consider that the taxation for additional police is most iniquitous, and that it is not only useless, but calculated to create such a feeling of irritation in the minds of the loyal and well dis¬ posed as to be most injurious. 1980. How would you redress that?—I would not have it levied off the district at all. 1981. Where would you put it; would you make the Consolidated Fund pay it?—I would make the same fund pay it that pays for the existing police. I may as well give some in¬ stances relating to that point to the Committee. In the case of the murder of Dowling, as I have mentioned already, the grand jury presented 800 1. to his widow. The taxation for the ad¬ ditional police in that particular instance is placed upon a very limited area. Messrs. Perry, the employers of Dowling, and Mr. Cantrell, both highly respectable people (the Messrs. Perry are very well able to afford it, the other gentleman perhaps is not so well able), between them pay more than one-naif of the amount of the tax for the support of these extra police¬ men. In Mr. Cantrell's case it will simply ruin him if it continues. 1982. Were not these extra police sent there, among other purposes, for the protection of the Messrs. Perry ?—Yes, and in that way I think it reasonable that Messrs. Perry should pay some¬ thing for them ; but in the other case which I spoke of, Mr. Cantrell's case, it certainly does not apply. I am only giving one case among numerous ones. It is certainly a very glaring instance of hardship. 1983. It has been suggested, I think, by some of our witnesses, that the area of taxation is not exactly what it ought to be ; that houses ought to be taxed, or that the people ought to be taxed instead of the land. Have you anything to say to the Committee upon that point ? — I have already stated that I object to such taxation in any shape or form, but if there is to be such, I think a small house tax preferable to the present system. ' 1984. But do you consider that a house tax, leaving out of the question altogether the amount to be levied, is better than a tax upon land?—Y r es, but the amount must be considered, as it is a very small sum that could be levied off houses. 1985. Do you think the house tax, or the poll tax, the preferable tax ; in your judgment which is the better of the two, and the more proper one to be enforced?—I do not know whether the poll tax could be collected; I do not think that it could be collected. 1986. What advantage would be derived from levying a tax upon houses which is not now de-. livable from that land?—Because there is scarcely any tax upon houses, the valuation is so small. 1987. The tax at present is upon the land?— The tax at present is upon the land. 1988. And of course that embraces the houses situated upon the land ?—It does; but the Com¬ mittee will understand this, that if the valuation K 3 of Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871. 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. Mooney . 24 March 1871. of a house is only 1 /. a year, the amount payable by that person for 12 months additional taxation for the police would be very minute. 1989. Is it not the case that very many of the large farmers live in very bad houses?—Yes; but it is also true that the large farmers are not Ribbonmen. 1990. Are you of opinion that the small farmers who live in small houses are much more likely to be engaged in the conspiracy ?—I do not think that the small farmers are Ribbonmen at all. 1991. Who do you think are the Ribbonmen then ?—I think that the society is recruited from the labouring class. 1992. I understand you to say that you are opposed altogether to any local taxation for the purposes of the police ?—My opinion is against it. I think that the well disposed suffer too severely by it. 1993. And that if it is to be raised at all by local taxation, are you in favour of a poll tax or a house tax?—Yes, one or the other, but I do not think a poll tax could be collected, and if it is to be a house tax the amount must be very moderate. 1994. Colonel Wilson Patten .] Why could it not be collected ?—Because, unless you were prepared to grant warrants against the persons of the whole community, the labouring classes have got no goods upon which a warrant could be levied. 1995. The Solicitor General for Ireland.^ The result would be that they would escape with im¬ punity, unless you put them in prison ?—Yes, unless you put them in prison. 1996. Do you think that if the landlords were to take a bold step and not to have these people in their employment that you referred to, and sought the aid of their tenants, and had the aid of an efficient police force, that would put an end to the conspiracy ?—I must not be understood as saying that the landlords patronise the Ribbon Society. 1997. You suggested something of the kind, I thought?—I never suggested it. 1998. Did you not say that the landlords have in their employment men who were known to be Ribbonmen throughout the country ?—Who were supposed to be Ribbonmen. 1999. For some short time, two or three years ago, Fenianism was more prevalent in West¬ meath than it has been of late?—Yes ; I do not think that there was a great deal of Fenianism in Westmeath. 2000. Was there more in Westmeath ap¬ parently than there is now ?—There was more Fenianism. 2001. Had that Fenianism any effect upon the Ribbon conspiracy ?—A political conspiracy in which the minds of the people were engaged must have that effect; the two could not go on together. 2002. Do you think that the effect of the Fenian conspiracy for a time was to diminish the outward effects, at all events, of Ribbonism ? —I do. . 2003. Of course you have had a considerable experience of juries in Westmeath ?—I have. 2004. At all the assizes, for some years past, you have attended as Clerk of the Crown? —I have. 2005. And it is your duty to empannel the jury that tries the prisoners ?—It is. 2000. And to receive their verdicts ?— Yes. 2007. Of course you attend to the challenges that are made upon behalf of the prisoners ?— I do. 2008. And the £f stand by ” on behalf of the Crown ?—Yes, 2009. Has there been of late years any failure of justice in Westmeath consequent upon jurors not discharging their duty?—Upon that sub¬ ject I could not speak; I am frequently out of court during the investigation, and while I am in court 1 am frequently not actually attending to the proceedings ; it is no part of my duty to do so; 1 think the Crown solicitor, who is in attendance, is a much more competent authority upon that subject than I am. 2010 . You call the jury upon the panel, and swear them, and take their verdict, but it is no part of your duty to attend to the evidence, or to record it ?—Certainly not. 2011 . You are present when the jury are em- pannelled ?—Yes, but I do not always remain in court during the trials. 2012 . You are present when the challenges take place of the jury?—Either myself, or some one to represent me. 2013. Colonel Wilson Pattenf When the jurors are challenged, are they often challenged by the prisoner ?—Yes, in every case of felony the prisoner is entitled to challenge 20 jurors peremptorily, and that power is more or less ex¬ ercised in cases of an agrarian character, but in Whiteboy cases the prisoner has no right of chal¬ lenge. 2014. The power of the Crown to challenge is unlimited ?—It is. 2015. Is that power exercised to any great ex¬ tent ?—It is occasionally ; at the last assizes it was exercised to a considerable extent. 2016. Is it the custom of the Crown to chal¬ lenge ?—Occasionally ; it was exercised to a con¬ siderable extent at the last assizes, as I have said. 2017. Do they tell the jury to stand by?— Yes, the Crown solicitor tells the iuror to stand b J- 2018. Mr. Disraeli f I think I understand you that in your opinion these outrages have increased in the county of Westmeath during the last two years?—Yes. 2019. Have you, in consequence of that, com¬ municated with the authorities of the county, and had conversations with them ?—Except as conversations, I have not. 2020 . But you have had conversations with them ?—Yes, I have spoken with the resident magistrates and others about these outrages. 2021 . Have you had any communication with the Lord Lieutenant of the county?—None whatever. 2022 . When you have been in Dublin have you had communication with the central autho¬ rities there ?—None. 2023. Have you never made any representa¬ tions with respect to the state of the county ?— None. I may mention that it is no portion what¬ ever of my duty, beyond what it would be of any private gentleman in the county who did not hold a commission of the peace, to make any re¬ presentation of that character. 2024. Mr. Hardy. ] With reference to the subject of employing Ribbonmen, is it not next to impossible for any person who employs labour not to employ them ?—I really think that it is to some extent impossible. 2025. That SELECT COMMITTEE OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 79 2025. That is to say, any man who employs any number of persons will have among them men who are generally suspected of being Ribbonmen ?—Yes, that is so. 2026. And with respect to farmers, you say that they have begun now to apply to attorneys for advice, but that in former times when they thought that they had received any injustice they applied to the Ribbonmen?—No, I did not say that. What I said was this, that at the pre¬ sent time they apply to a solicitor for advice to procure payment of their compensation, and that formerly they did not. The rest is purely matter of inference. 2027. As a matter of fact, when any of those acts which they considered injustice were per¬ petrated, whether they were Ribbonmen or not, the organisation in the county took up the case for them ; was that so ?—hi o, I do not say that. 2028. Then what do these agrarian outrages arise from ?—I think some of the outrages which occurred were perpetrated, not through the or¬ ganisation of the Ribbon Society at all. 2029. You have given the Committee some instances in which you say that there have been attempts to take possession of the land which has been long in the occupation of the present ten¬ ants ?— Y es. 2030. Do you suppose that those attempts are being made through that Ribbon organisation? They are frequently. 2031. And as we have heard there are farms unlet in Westmeath on account of the threats against any one taking them, do you imagine that that effect would be caused by the Ribbon organisation ?—I do ; I think that the non-taking of them to a considerable extent is owing to the fear of the Ribbon organisation. At the same time I do not think that in the county of West¬ meath at the present time I could call to mind three farms unlet. 2032. You told the Committee that the people do not complain of the administration of justice in Westmeath ?—No ; I do not think they do. 2033. And you stated that the reason they did not complain was that you thought that the offenders did not receive sufficiently severe treat¬ ment from certain magistrates ?—No, that was not what I meant to convey to the Committee. 2034. That was the impression which you con¬ veyed to my mind ?—That was somewhat erro¬ neous then ; what I intended to convey was this, that there was a popular idea that when Ribbon¬ men or persons who were known to have the Ribbon Society at their back, came to be dealt with in the local courts, they were occasionally more tenderly dealt with than persons who were supposed not to have that pow r er behind them. 2035. And you gave that as the reason for their not finding fault with the administration of justice, as I understand ?—I never intended to convey that idea. 2036. Do you mean to apply that to the local courts; do you refer to the resident magistrates or to the unpaid magistrates?—To the unpaid magistrates, of course. 2037. Solely?—Of course. 2038. But do not the resident magistrates take almost all those agrarian cases into their charge, and conduct the investigations and the inquiries ? —No, they do not. 1 am not speaking at all of agrarian cases in the proper sense of the word ; 0.50. I am speaking of cases of a much less serious character : cases that would be dealt with sum¬ marily at the petty sessions. 2039. I have before me an account of the cases that have happened in Westmeath durino- the last two years, and I cannot find any ad¬ ministration of justice whatever, for I find no committals ?—The cases I speak of are cases somewhat of this character. If there happen to be assault cases occurring at fairs or markets, or cases of that kind, those are dealt with in a sum¬ mary way by the magistrates at petty sessions, by way of fine or imprisonment. 2040. And you think that in those cases there is an impression that the Ribbonman has been more leniently dealt with than the non-Ribbon- man ?—Do not understand me to say that that is the practice of the magistrates. I merely wish to convey to the Committee that there is a feel¬ ing among the people that it often happens. 2041. That that is the popular opinion?— Yes. 2042. Referring to the question of the resi¬ dence of the Crown solicitors, I find on looking at Thom’s Directory, that the whole of the Crown solicitors for the Quarter Sessions reside in Dublin, is that so ?—That is not so. 2043. They have offices there, perhaps ?—I am very far from saying that the administration of justice would suffer, even supposing that that was the case. 2044. That was what I was going to ask you; are they resident in Dublin, or are they local solicitors ?—The Crown solicitor for W estmeath is the Crown solicitor also for the King’s County, Mr. Julian. 2045. I am not speaking of any particular case?—Mr. Julian is the Crown solicitor for Westmeath, and also for King’s County, and he resides in King’s County, having an office in Dublin. The sessional Crown solicitor for West¬ meath resides in Westmeath. 2046. Then those are not their residences, but their offices, which are referred to in the Direc¬ tory of Dublin ? — No doubt, but in Thom’s Directory thev usuallv give both. 2047. I would ask you generally, whether you are satisfied with the present jury Jaw, and with the challenges ?—No. 2048. In what respect do you think it de¬ ficient ?—I really did not expect to be examined upon that point. I have not given my attention to that subject; it is a very large subject. 2049. I understand you to say, that you are not satisfied with the existing state of the jury law?—I am not satisfied with the existing state of the jury law. 2050. Do you think that it is fair to the Crown as it stands ? —I think it is quite as fair to the Crown as to the subject; the sheriff is almost irresponsible. If the sheriff chooses to return a jury that he thinks will suit the pur¬ poses of the Crown, he can do it ; and if he chooses to return a jury that he thinks will suit the purposes of the prisoner, he can do it. 2051. Your objection is to the absolute power of the sheriff?—Yes, but it is a very wide sub¬ ject ; if I had a little time for consideration I could go into it. 2052. Now, with respect to the police, you have no special knowledge of the management of the police in Ireland ?—No special knowledge, k 4 in Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871. 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE t Mr. Mooney. 24 March 1871. in so far as I am not connected with the con¬ stabulary. 2053. The Solicitor General for Ireland asked you with reference to detectives, and you said that you did not know what had been done in the county of Westmeath ?—I do not. 2054. You do not know whether the police have, as a matter of constant practice, employed intermediaries to obtain information for them ; to obtain interviews with persons suspected of knowing about the intended commission of crime ? —I do not know what they have done. 2055. But if they have done so, they have adopted your plan ?—Except that they have not caught the criminals. 2056. If they have adopted your plan it has not succeeded ?—It has not succeeded. 2057. With respect to the local detective force which you suggest, you want certain persons, known to the local population, to mix among the population, either as policemen or as connected with persons who can give information?—Yes. 2058. And you think that with that and with what you call a fearless magistracy, these things might be put down ?—In course of time. 2059. 1 want you to explain the term, “ a fearless magistracy;” do you complain of any want of courage in the resident magistrates ?— No. I really think the term explains itself, and that is that when a prisoner was brought before the magistrate he would deal with him as he thought he ought to to be dealt with, without fear or favour. 2060. Could you give the Committee any in¬ stance of their having done the reverse ?—I could not from my own knowledge. As I have men- tioned already, I have not been in the petty ses¬ sions once in two years. 2061. You speak entirely from rumour?— Entirely. 2062. You have not even heard of any special case that you could mention to the Committee ? —I have from time to time heard of cases, but I could not recall them by name or date at this moment. 2063. I am afraid that in the highest courts we sometimes hear of sentences which seem to lead to the impression that the judge has not taken a correct view of the subject?—-No doubt. 2064. Mr. Bruen.~\ Is the petty jury panel for Westmeath a very large one?—A very large one. At the last assizes I think that there were about 170 names upon it. 2065. I think you stated that the right of challenge by the prisoner was always exercised by him in those agrarian cases ?—Where the charge is one of felony it is; but in the great bulk of those agrarian cases the prisoner has no right of challenge whatever, except for cause. 2066. In those cases where the right of chal¬ lenge is exercised, and the cases are Bibbon cases, have you watched the way in which the prisoner’s right of challenge has been exercised ? —Yes. 2067. Against whom principally has the right of challenge been exercised ?—First they chal¬ lenge all the magistrates. 2068. Sir G. Grey. ] Are magistrates often on petty juries?—Yes, and grand jurors are also upon the common jury panel. The county of West¬ meath differs from other counties in that respect; in other counties men of that class would be in¬ sulted by being put upon the common jury panel. but they know perfectly well that it is necessary for the administration of justice that they should be upon the panel in the county of Westmeath, and therefore they do not complain of it. 2069. Mr. Bruen.~\ They are quite willing to exercise whatever duty is put upon them, even though they should incur personal risk by doing so ?—1 think so. 2070. Do you suppose that the peremptory challenge of 20 names would be exhausted when all the magistrates and grand jurors upon the panel had been challenged ?—Sometimes not, I think. 2071. After that what class of persons does the prisoner challenge ?—As a rule, those per¬ sons whom they believe to be of the most inde¬ pendent and firm judgment. 2072. But in what class of life would thev be ?—I am not prepared to say that they are con¬ fined to any particular class of life. 2073. The Crown exercises the right of chal¬ lenge, does it not ?—The Crown has an unlimited right of challenge in every case. 2074. And exercises it?—Sometimes, but to a very limited extent. 2075. The Solicitor General for Ireland .] When the jury are being called, the Crown solicitor says, “ Stand by,” to a juror?—Yes. 2076. But when the whole panel is exhausted and the jury is not made up, those men must go upon the jury unless the Crown can challenge them for cause?—Yes, that is so. 2077. Mr. Bruen.~\ Have you had any instruc¬ tions to exercise the right of calling upon jurors to stand by ?—No ; that is not my business, that is the business of the Crown solicitor. 2078. Within your memory in the county of Westmeath, have there been many large evic¬ tions ; going back for the last 22 or 23 years ? — Yes, there have been. 2079. Evictions of a wholesale character ?— Very few ; I can only call to mind one instance at the present moment of what I call a clearance, that is, the absolute removal of an entire tenantry from a particular locality. 2080. You state that you remember one ?— Yes, I do. 2081. Sir G. GreySj About when was that? —Perhaps about 10 or 12 years ago, I think. 2082. Mr. Bruen.~\ Could you remember the number of tenants who were removed in that case ?—I could not remember the number. 2083. Mr. Plunhet.~\ Could you go near it ? —I could not; I do not know the number. 2084. Mr. Brnen.~\ Could you give the Com¬ mittee any idea of the extent of land that was cleared ?—I may be entirely mistaken about it, but perhaps there might have been 200 acres. 2085. Perhaps you could give the Committee the circumstances ?—The only actual clearance that I know of was that of : it does not, perhaps, reflect so much upon Mr. at all ; he purchased the property in the Landed Estates Court, and he incorporated a great part of it, or the entire of it, with his own domain. and for the purposes of that incorporation he re¬ moved all the tenants. 2086. He evicted them ?—Yes. 2087. Did he actually turn them out upon the road ?—He compelled them to give up posses¬ sion. 2088. Did he not actually put them into other farms ?—I do not know to what extent those parties 81 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &c. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). parties absolutely left Mr. ’s property, but he stated to me yesterday that a great num¬ ber of them now held land from him upon other portions of the estate; I do not know from in) own knowledge whether that is correct or not, but I presume he would not state it unless it was true. 2089. That is the only case of wholesale evic¬ tion that you can remember within the last 20 years?—That is the only one. At the time of the Famine, in the year 1848, and for some two or three years afterwards, the state of the people caused wholesale evictions; but that was eviction for non-payment of rent; but it had the same result, it swept the people off’ the land in thousands ; but in the sense of clearing them by evicting them on notice to quit, that has not been, in my opinion, extensively practised in the county of Westmeath. 2090. Do you know of any instances of raising the rent to any great extent?—Yes, rents have been very considerably raised. 2091. Have they been raised within the last 22 or 23 years?—Yes, very much indeed. 2092. Sir G. Grey .] Are rents well paid ?— They are very well paid; there is no part of Ireland where they are better paid. 2093. Mr. Bruen .] Do you know whether what is called the 'ot hold of an informer, he mentions the fact to his con¬ stable, and the constable would send word of it to the sub-inspector, like Mr. Townsend, and Mr. Townsend would go to the place and ascer¬ tain the facts, and put the case in training, and take steps to follow up the information for the purpose of obtaining a conviction. 3409. Would not Mr. Townsend report it to the county inspector?—Certainly; after he had seen the case lie would report it to the county inspector. 3410. And the county inspector would inform you ?—That would depend upon how far the case had gone. There are many things which are not reported to me, as it would take up the officer’s time too much to be continually writing; the county inspector and the sub-inspector are the responsible people for following up the crime. 3411. But is it not possible that there is an apprehension in the minds of people that any in¬ formation which they give to a constable will not be confined to him, but will immediately become known to a great number of people ?—1 have not heard of that. 3412. Do you not think it is probable ?—I do not think so. 3413. To what do you attribute the difficulty which is found in obtaining information in Iiibbon cases ?—From the very fact of the way in which the Ribbon system is constructed. I have heard people say, let us send down a man into such and such a place and get him into a trade or calling. I need not go back to the Committees of 1839 and 1852 to explain the phases cfRibbonism; they have altered considerably since that time. I, myself, know a good deal about the lodges in Westmeath ; they are not affiliated to a common centre as they used to be to Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, and other places; but a man to get into the Ribbon lodges must be a long time sojourning in the neighbourhood ; he must be known, and in some lodges he must test what he is worth, by being obliged to commit an agra¬ rian outrage before he becomes a Iljbbonman. 3414. And it is to the organisation of the Rib¬ bon conspiracy you think is to be attributed the difficulty which has been found in getting in¬ formation ?—Yes. I can give an instance which was brought to me by-; his steward was shot at twice; and that steward came up to me in the gentleman’s presence, and I said to him, “ Do you not really think that that was the man who fired at you ?” and he denied it; and I said to him, “ How long have you been in the county?” and he said, “ I have been in the county your honour for all my life.” I then said, “ Do you mean to tell me that you cannot, and that none of your friends or relatives could give any idea as to who shot at you ?” and he said, “ Well, your honour, I can tell you this, that if they gave me a hint of it, they would be shot themselves as well as myself.” The terror is so great no one would ever think of giving information as to who did it, or how it was done. 3415. With reference to the detective force, I believe that some alteration has been made in the system of detectives within a short time?—A great alteration has been made within the last year and a half, or two years, which is not known by any one in the country, and I think the less it is known the better. 3416. In your opinion, is it more efficient than it was?—Certainly; points are coming out every day which prove it. At the last Spring Assizes, I think, with the exception of Kildare, the judges did not say that the constabulary wanted effi¬ ciency ; but there were a great number of anonymous letters in the county of Kildare. One man may send 50 anonymous letters, and it is very difficult to discover the writers. The jury will not convict upon an expert’s evidence only, you must have corroborative evidence. 3417. Is it the case that drilled men, with their hair cut short behind, are sent down as detectives, and are recognised as soon as they come into the country ?—I never heard of such a thing. 3418. That is not the case?—Certainly not. If the Committee will only refer to the Royal Commission of five years ago, they will find the same thing stated. When a magistrate told me about the military hair, and so on, he said he had heard it, but he found on examination there was no truth in it; they are allowed to wear a beard and moustache, and anything they like ; their hair is not cut short; 1 am not surprised that such ideas going about give a bad impression of the constabulary. 3419. In your opinion, would any alteration of the constabulary enable you to cope with the Ribbon SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS) 141 Ribbon organisation ?—Certainly not; I have made the whole thing a study, and that is my opinion. 3420. You consider that changes will have to be made to render the force more effective than it has been hitherto?—Certainly. 3421. Still you do not anticipate that it will ever be able to cope with Ribbonism?—Certainly not; I plead ignorance of 'Ribbonism, which is about the only thing I find I cannot master. 3422. You do not think that any change in the organisation of the force, generally, would make them more efficient for the purpose of find¬ ing out Ribbonism ?—I do not think it would, although I am sorry to say it. 3423. Are you acquainted with the constabu¬ lary system of England?—A little. 3424. You do not think that any assimilation of the Irish constabulary, supposing on other grounds it was possible, would make it more efficient in the detection of crime ?—Certainly not; the two countries are as different from each other as chalk from cheese. 3425. Mr. Disraeli.] You spoke of those parts of the country where Ribbonism prevails ; what part of the country would Ribbonism prevail in ? —At this present moment there is great differ¬ ence of opinion upon that point. You hear some people talk about Ribbonism in some counties, such as Tipperary; but there is no such thing there. I look upon it as existing in King’s County, Meath, and Westmeath. The only in¬ stance in the county of Roscommon that I know was in the town of Athlone, in the case of Cap¬ tain Tarlatan, and when I was inspecting in Mo¬ naghan, I had reason to believe that there was a a little of it in a portion of that county. There are crimes committed in Mayo, but I do not think the Ribbon system prevails there, yet it may extend to it. 3426. What portion of vour force is employed in those districts where Ribbonism prevails ?—I should think, to the best of my recollection, in Westmeath there must be at this present moment about 400 men, but considering that I have 13,000 men under me, that is a difficult question to answer accurately. 3427. Does that number include the extra po¬ lice in Westmeath ?—I think I am including them. At this present moment the whole of the extra police am not there, because so many vacancies occur. I think I had only last month 350 vacancies, so that I am not sure whether I am right in saying that there are about 400 men at the present moment in Westmeath. 3428. Would you have, perhaps, about the same in other districts where Ribbonism is sup¬ posed to prevail?—In Meath, we have about that number; in King’s County it is a smaller number. 3429. The whole amount of your force would be about 16,000 men, would it not? — Kot quite so much as that; 12,600 men and 300 officei's. 3430. Mr. Hardy.'] In your opinion would it be necessary that there should be some new means taken to cope with Ribbonism other than those which are taken at present ?— I have written strongly upon the subject for the last year and a-half to the Government. 3431. They are in possession of Reports of yours upon that subject ?—YYs, very strong Re¬ ports. 3432. Recommending additional measures ?— 0.50. Recommending the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. 3433. Mr. Braen.] You say that the duties of police as regards road nuisances, and as regards the collection of the dog tax, make them unpopu¬ lar ?—Yes. 3434. In the western parts of Ireland they have duties as regards the suppression of illicit distillation, have they not?—That duty ought never to have been imposed upon the force, for a very strong reason, which I can give the Com¬ mittee if they particularly desire it. 3435. With regard to the duties of the police, would you go so far as to say that they ought to be relieved from all the duties that make them unpopular ?—If so they would have to be relieved of a good many other duties, but I think the two duties which call for reformation are the duties connected with the road nuisances and the dog- tax, but the road nuisances especially. Thereis not a man in the force who will not tell you the same thing. 3436. Is the only reason why you think they should be relieved from those duties the fact of their making them unpopular ?—That is the principal reason; that they make the people un¬ friendly towards the police. 3437. Mr. Hardy.] And prevent their useful association with the peasantry ?—They prevent their useful association with the peasantry, and that has a very serious effect. 3438. Mr. Downing.] You do not agree with this evidence: “ A man comes down with his hair cut short behind, and his very walk can be recog¬ nised at the end of a mile upon the road”?— Certainly not. 3439. “The country people immediately give the sign, and say : ‘ What does that fellow want here; where does he come from.’ ” You do not believe that?—The country people are very acute people, and they would tell him without that. I do not agree with that statement about the hair being cut short. I will illustrate a little what is going- on. A gentleman in Mayo sent for a policeman, and I told my detective officer to send a particular man to Mayo. It was reported to the Lord Lieutenant that he was of no use; that he was too military in his appearance, and quite unfit for the purpose. My deputy (for I was upon an inspection) brought this very man into the presence of the Under Secretary, and he did not know that he was a detective, and said that he could not tell he was one; this was the very man who was of so military an appearance; this oc¬ curred within the last five weeks. 3440. Do you not know of your own knowledge that during the Fenian conspiracy detectives were sent to a great number of towns where the dis¬ affected people were at the time, and were totally unknown to the people until they left?—They never were known as detectives at all. 3441. You have said repeatedly that the road nuisances and the collection of the dog tax, or getting information respecting it, made the police unpopular ?—Yes. 3442. Is not it a more unpopular thing that the police should be called upon to some extent to protect game and to arrest poachers ?—I do not view the subject in that light, because they have got nothing to do with it, at least, they have not to become gamekeepers, if I recollect rightly; they are not to go across the fields to look after poachers, but if they come into the public road, the police may say to a suspected man, “ Let me see what you have there,” and he may take him s 3 up; Colonel Sir J. Stewart- Wood, K.C.B. 30 March 1871. 142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel Sir J. Stewart- Wood, K.C.E. 30 March 1871, up; but as for making the police gamekeepers, that is not the intention of the Act. 3443. Does that make the police unpopular with the people?—No, I never heard that. The road nuisance has always been dinned into my ears as being the chief grievance. 3444. With regard to the protection of fisheries, it has been stated, I believe, that that has also been a service of unpopularity?—Not only that, but a disadvantage to us. When any policeman has a chance of getting a reward, it leads him to look more after the fisheries than after the peace of the neighbourhood. 3445. It is a very common thing, that people go upon dark nights with lights upon the river for the purpose of killing fish, is it not ?—It is. 3446. You are of opinion, that employing the police in protecting the fisheries makes (hem very unpopular?—I do not say so much about its un¬ popularity as about its leading the men to look for rewards away from their legitimate duties, because they get a reward in that case, and they would much prefer the chance of picking up a few shillings to looking after the protection of the towns. 3447. You are aware that under the Towns Improvement Act the Commissioners and their inspectors are the persons to look after all these nuisances ?—Yes. 3448. And the road contractor, you think, ought to be the person who would look after those nuisances in his district ?—I think so. 3449. I believe, in a great many districts, the police have scarcely ever a case before the bench of magistrates except for road nuisances ?—And drunkenness. I think it is so. 3450. You stated that you knew the Ribbon lodges generally in Westmeath ?—I do not say that I know where the lodges are. I could not go to a particular Ribbon lodge, but I know that certain lodges exist in Westmeath. We may have one at such a place, and another at another, and all pretty nearly under the same rules; but some, in one district esjiecially, are much more severe than in others. 3451. You do not mean to say that you know, of your own knowledge, of the lodges ?—No; I know that there are different lodges. 3452. From what you hear?—From what I hear. 3453. Mr. Gregory. j Do you think that, in case the suppression of road nuisances were left to the road contractors, the roads would be in a very fit state to travel on after a short time ?—I have no knowledge of what the road contractors are; there is not the slightest doubt that, like most things in Ireland, the police are obliged to look after it, be¬ cause they do everything better than any one else. 3454. Do you not think that the road con¬ tractor who summoned people for having pigs upon the high road would probably be removed to a happier world before very long ?—I am only talking about a very obnoxious duty being put upon the police. 3455. But as the obnoxious duty is that of keeping the roads clear, is it not patent that the roads ought to be kept clear, and that it is not very likely that the agency of road contractors would effect that object?—Then the duty could be performed by some one else, if the road con¬ tractors could not do it. 3456. Who would you suggest?—I did not give that a thought, so long as I could get it away from the police. 3457. You state that these circumstances render the police unpopular ?—Very much so. 3458. Do you not think that the employment of the police in the service of law and order renders them very unpopular in certain districts ? —No; I consider that every w T ell-thinking per¬ son, and even the bad ones, know that it is the duty of the police to look after law and order. 3459. Now when large parties go down to have the pleasure of a faction fight in some counties in Ireland, do you not think that the police are very unpopular in preventing those little ebulitions? —But those are very uncommon things; I have never seen one; I tried to see one once, but I could not. 3460. Do you know Tubba in the county of Clare ?—Yes. 3461. Do you know that there are faction fights there very often?—Yes, I have heard so; but none of late. 3462. Do you know of a man having been killed there in a general faction fight ?—I could not say it Avas a faction fight; but I have heard of a man being nearly killed there. 3463. At all events it Avas a fight between tAvo parties, and do you not think that the police Avere extremely unpopular in endeavouring to arrest those parties, and to bring them to trial?—Of course they Avere. 3464. With regard to the Avriting that the police have to do, I have heard it stated a good deal of the efficiency of your serjeants has diminished by the large amount of Avriting that Avas thrown upon them by the sub¬ inspectors ; do you believe that that is the case ? —If I heard of it you may depend upon it that the sub-inspector Avould not do it again; but I never heard of it. 3465. It is not the case ?—There is no doubt that there is a good deal of writing ; but as I tell you I have reduced it as much as I can. VVe must have some Avriting done ; but I do not think that any officer Avould impose upon his sub-officers or sub-constables the duty of doing the Avriting. I do not think that they would dare to do it, and certainly they Avould not do it a second time if I heard of it. 3466. I have heard that the efficiency of the serjeants of police was a good deal hampered by work being throAvn upon them Avhich Avas not quite within their province, in order to help the officers Avhose duty it Avas to do it ; you do not think that that is the case, do you ?—I do not; and I should be glad to hear of any case that might be brought betore me. 3467. Mr. Jamcs.~\ When did you first come to the conclusion that it Avould be advisable to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act ?—In December, 1869. 3468. Was that from personal observation in Westmeath, or from reports that Avere sent to you?—From reports and from conversation. 3469. In Westmeath itself?—From officers in Westmeath, and also Avhen I have been down in Westmeath. 3470. Do you visit Westmeath Avhen you in¬ spect your head-quarters?—The head-quarters of counties and districts are inspected, and the officers and men examined in their police and detective duties every third year by an officer from head-quarters. The districts and sub- districts every alternate year by them ; besides, the county inspector examines the men in their different duties once every three months, and the sub-inspectors once every month. 3471. IIoav often Avould you visit Westmeath for inspection ?—Tivice in seven years. 3472. I take SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, 3472. I take it that you have not been in Westmeath itself since 1867 ?—I think not. 3473. And at that time the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended?—Yes, that was for the Fenian conspiracy; Ribbonism was down and Fenianism was up. 3474. Do you know anything of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act iji relation to Fenian¬ ism ?—Yes. 3475. Did you bear any of the responsibility, in recommending and advising who should be arrested at all ?—I do not know about the respon¬ sibility, but I can tell you the process which was adopted. If a man was suspected of Fenianism, whenever we knew the man and had information, we laid it before the Government, with a recom¬ mendation that a warrant should be issued, and, of course, the Lord Lieutenant considering the information all correct, issued his warrant for the arrest of the man, and he was placed in gaol. 3476. Then the suggestion to the Lord Lieu¬ tenant came directly through you from the officers below you ? In a great measure. 3477. Did you ever hear the suggestion made that any innocent person had been wrongly ar¬ rested ?—J never, to my recollection, have heard of a single man being arrested by the constabulary improperly. 3478. I am speaking of the Fenian arrests ?— Yes, that is what I am referring to. 3479. Have you any knowledge how many persons were arrested in the Westmeath district in consequence of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act?—There was very little Fenianism in Westmeath. Fenianism did not extend itself to Westmeath in those clays as in other places; it was more in Cork, Limerick, and the Southern counties. 3480. Probably you could not give the Com¬ mittee the number that were arrested ?—No, I do not think there would be any means of letting you know that. 3481. You do not know, I presume, how the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act would be re¬ ceived by the people of Westmeath?—Yes, I could tell you. 3482. From your own knowledge?—I could tell you from the information received from the men of my force, and gentlemen in the county generally, that I have spoken to, that the sus¬ pension of the Habeas was the only step to put a stop to Ribbonism. In King’s County the very idea of the suspension is having a very good effect now, for I happened to be at Clara, and Tubba, and Kilfoylan, and I could not get anybody to cook or do anything for my men. I was at Kilfoylan about Moran’s case, and the police were asked every¬ where : “ What about the Bill this morning and the suspension.” They are most anxious to know what is going on about the suspension. 3483. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock .] With regard to these road nuisances, is it not the fact, that since the establishment of the constabulary in Ireland under the late Sir Robert Peel, it has been the duty of the police to look after these road nuisances?—Yes, from before my time; from the beginning of the force, I believe. 3484. Would it at all affect the efficiency of the force if the married men were allowed to sleep out of barracks ; have you ever considered that ?—Certainly ; a certain number are allowed to live out of barracks ; but, perhaps, the Com¬ mittee are not aware of that. 3485. Is that in country districts ?—In every 0.50. &c. (unlawful combinations). 143 district married people Avho cannot be provided with barrack accommodation are allowed to live out of barracks; within the last three months I have allowed them to have a little piece of land and a pig. 3486. Therefore they can mix with the people at night ?—Yes, so much so that in these very places, Westmeath and two other counties, when they are off duty, they are out in plain clothes, and do everything as they like. 3487. Colonel Wilson Patten.~\ What propor¬ tion of the police in Ireland are instructed in the detection of crime; is it the whole, or only a portion of them?—The whole force in Ireland; a detective is very well in large towns, but in country districts in Ireland, whenever a stranger goes into the country, the children of eight or ten years will say, “ Bedad, that’s a paler,” and he is put in Coventry. I know a case in Leitrim where a man was put in Coventry, and, if you like, I could tell you some very amusing stories to show you what keen people the Irish are. 3488. How do you ascertain for yourself in your inspections that the police are efficient as detectives as well as in their general duties?_ Because I examine them myself in their detective duties as well as in their police duties; if you ask any man in the force he will tell you how he is examined. 3489. Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.'] Had you any experience with the police before you were appointed Deputy Inspector General in Ireland ?—A smattering; I had the command of the police at Aldershot. 3490. You had been in the army before you went to Ireland ?—I had. 3491. You had no particular knowledge of the police force ?—No, I cannot say that I had. 3492. You were appointed Deputy Inspector General in 1860?—I was appointed in 1860. 3493. Had you ever been in Ireland before ? — Never in my life. 3494. You were never in Ireland until you acquired that official position ? — No, I had served in nearly every quarter of the world, but I had not been in Ireland. 3495. That was the first time you made your appearance there in any police capacity ?—-In any capacity. 3496. And you remained in that capacity until the month of May 1864 ?—May 1865. 3497. And then you were appointed Inspector General?—Yes; directly after the Fenian out¬ break I entirely changed the system. 3498. When were you in Westmeath last?— For inspection, in 1868. 3499. But you went down the other day?—I went down to inquire into Supple’s case, and to inquire about another matter. 3500. To acquire useful information?—Yes. 3501. But you have not been there for inspec¬ tion since 1867?—I think that it was in 1868 that I went there for inspection, and not in 1867. 3502. You told the Committee that you ob¬ jected to the police being used for road nuisances? —Yes, I do. 3503. And also with respect to fisheries?—I did not bring up that question, but I certainly do, because it takes them away from their legiti¬ mate duties. 3504. And you also object to their being em¬ ployed with reference to dogs ?—Yes. 3505. I suppose that you would also object to there being used in regard to these gun licenses ? s 4 —I have Colonel Sir J. Steivart- IVoocl, K.C.B 30 March 1871. 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel Sir —I have already done so as strongly as I could ; J. Stewart - I think those duties detract from their useful- JVood, k.c.b. ness as a constabulary force and as regards the detection of crime. no March 3506 . I believe that the regulations are being 1 revised as regards the management of the police ? —Yes, I am revising them myself now. 3507. And giving them as little writing to do as you can manage, consistently with affording proper information to the head quarters ?—T es, that is my object among other things ; every person has his own ideas of managing his own> affairs ; I have my own ideas of it; I am doing it gradually. 3508. You do not think that you are too wedded to the military idea?—I hope I am not. 3509. Do you suspect that you have military predilections?—That is rather a delicate question, but I think that I am trying to drive the military system out. * 3510. Upon the whole you are making changes in the direction of making them a less military force ?—Certainly. 3511. Everything is done that can be reason¬ ably expected to be done ?—I should be delighted to show any one the system, and then it would show how little the outer world knows of what is coins on in Ireland. 3512. Sir G. Grey.] I think you said that there was no other police force which had duties im¬ posed upon it similar to those which you have mentioned ; are you acquainted with tlie duties performed by the county constabulary in England? —I cannot say thoroughly. 3513. Do you know whether those duties, such as giving information about persons who allow their cattle to obstruct the roads, or about dogs, are performed by the police in the county dis¬ tricts in England ?—I think not 3514. The excise, and not constabulary, you think, should not perform the duty with reference to the dogs, and the contractor should look after the road nuisances; have they the means at pre¬ sent of doing that ?—They have not the means at present, but they should have the means sup¬ plied to them. 3515. Mr. Bruen.] Would not that entail extra expense upon the road contractors ?—Cer¬ tainly. 3516. Chairman.'] When you recommended the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in the month of December 1869, several parts of Ire¬ land were in a very bad state, were they not ?— I think they were confined to three or four or five counties to the best of my recollection. 3517. Was Westmeath one?—Meath was the Avorst, then Mayo and Westmeath and part of King’s County ; I think that those were the counties, but Meath at that time, as I say, was the Avorst. 3518. Were there any outrages in Tipperary? -—Certainly there Avere ; Mr. BradshaAv’s murder and others. 3519. In the Report you referred to you did not make any especial reference to Westmeath, did you?—No, I did not. 3520. You recommended it as a general mea¬ sure ?—Yes, for those particular counties. 3521. That Avas before the introduction of the Peace Preservation Act? — Yes; that Avas in December 1869; the beginning of the Peace Preservation Act Avas about June last year. 3522. But I gather from your evidence that the Peace Preservation Act has failed so far as re¬ gards Westmeath?—I think so; I think West¬ meath is the hotbed of Ribbonism. 3523. In your opinion has the Peace Preserva¬ tion Act been of use except in the Ribbon dis¬ tricts of Westmeath? — Yes, in some parts of Meath and some parts of King’s County it has been of use. 3524. In Mayo its effects have been good, have they not?—I do not look upon Mayo as being so bad as Westmeath, and so far it has done a little good there. 3525. To Avhat do you attribute that improve¬ ment ?—Crime has been got under in a great measure, Mayo is rather quieter this year than it Avas last. 3526. To Avhat do you attribute that fact?—I attribute it to the Peace Preservation Act being carried out in some portions of it. 3527. But you did not make any distinction just uoav betAveen Westmeath and the other dis¬ turbed districts. I presume you Avould not recommend the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, as a general measure?—No, I Avould not. 3528. Mr. Hardy.] I understand you to say that you made several reports ?—I have Avritten two letters upon the subject; one in December 1869, to the best of my recollection, and the other, I think, in January this year. 3529. Did you, in your last report, refer to Ireland generally, or only to Westmeath? — That report pointed exclusively to Westmeath, and in strong terms. The Rio-ht Honourable Colonel Fitzstephen French, a Member of the House; Examined. O lit. Hon Col. 3530. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock.] You have re- F. French, presented the county of Roscommon for a great M.r. number of years, have you not?—Yes; for about - 39 years. 3531. The county of Roscommon is adjoining to the county of Westmeath, separated by the river Shannon?—Yes, it is ; half of the borough of Athlone is in one county and half in the other, and there is just the river between them. 3532. I think that you have some property in Athlone and in the neighbourhood ?—I have a good deal of property in Athlone, about that end of it which adjoins Westmeath. 3533. And T believe you have been also member of the grand jury for the county of Roscommon ?—I haA'e, for the last 45 years gene- rallv actum as foreman. 3534. And Avhen you are in Ireland you generally attend the petty sessions ?—I attend all the petty sessions in my neighbourhood, four in number. 3535. Have you heard of the disturbances in the county of Westmeath ?—Yes, I have attended to them. 3536. Have you formed an opinion as to what the origin of those disturbances is ?—The origin of the Ribbon disturbance Avas supposed to be locally connected very much Avith the tenure of land; it Avas totally different from Fenianism. 3537. You 145 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 3537. You have heard of the difficulty of dealing with this class of offences; have you considered, and can you tell the Committee from what, in your opinion, the difficulty arises of obtaining convictions, and of bringing the offenders to justice?—The difficulty arises very much from the state which the county has been suffered to get into. There is a reign of terror over all the people; they are afraid to give in¬ formation, and they will not assist in enforcing the law. No body of police, and no body of military, unless they get some support from public opinion, can avail to put an end to local disturb¬ ances of this kind. 3538. Are you of opinion that a military force, if brought into operation, and the police force as at present existing, are totally ineffectual to sup¬ press crime ?—Totally ineffectual, and no addi¬ tion to them could make them effectual. 3539. Would you give the Committee your reasons for saying that no addition to them could make them effectual ?—Because the police force when on duty, only occupy the ground upon which they are marching; their measured tread is at once recognised, and, as it is termed, spotted, and the knowledge that they were by even the children of the different places they passed through, would render them incapable of acting with efficiency, and the same thing applies to the military. 3540. Can you suggest to the Committee any¬ thing which would check crime and bring the offenders to justice ?—I have no doubt that it could be done cheaply and speedily (as it has been done before) by the people themselves, and by no other force. 3541. When you state that it has been done^by the people themselves, to what circumstance do you allude ?—The circumstance I allude to is this: the county I have the honour to represent was, in 1848, in as bad a state, or probably in a worse state, than Westmeatk or any other county, Clare, Louth, or Monaghan has been in, but the people there put a stop to the whole of those illegal proceedings. I was instrumental in doing it at the request of the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; Lord Clarendon. 3542. Will you mention to the Committee what steps you took for stopping these illegal proceedings which you refer to ?—The Act under which peace and order were restored was the 2nd & 3rd William the Fourth, chapter 108. That Act enabled any two justices of the peace to swear in persons in their barony or half barony, or certain district, as special constables. The notice ot your having sworn in those men must be sent to'the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and approved of by him; and there is also a necessity now for serving the lieutenants of the counties. If you state that there is any person who would be exempt from serving on account of his official ( position, if desired, the Lord Lieutenant has the power to order him to be served ; there is a penalty in the Act of 5 7. for every man refusing :o serve as a special constable. I never had an :nstance of a man refusing to serve. The oath is a very simple one ; I will read it: “ That I will well and truly serve our. Sovereign Lord the King in the office of special constable, for the parish of-, without favour or affection, malice, or ill-will; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved, and prevent all offences against the persons and pro- 0.50. perties of his Majesty’s subjects, and that while t>. tt r , I continue to hold said office, I will, to the best p French of my skill and knowledge, discharge all the m .p. ’’ duties thereof faithfully, according to law.” No __ person could well object to take an oath of that 30 March kind, and I never knew one objection to it. If 1871. any objection was made, it deprived the person refusing to serve of the advantages of the Land Act of 1870. 3543. Mr. Pemberton.~\ At whose instance is this machinery to be put in operation ?—It was under this Act that we put the landowners of Roscommon to work to stop it. 3544. Does the Lord Lieutenant put it in motion, or the magistrates themselves ?—The magistrates themselves. • But when I alluded to Lord Clarendon, I should say that Lord Claren¬ don asked me if I could do this in the county that I represent. At this time, in the end of 1847, Major Mahon was murdered in the open daylight; he was a man of from 10,000 7. to 12,000 7. a year in the county, and the Reverend Mr. Lloyd was also murdered. Half-a-dozen farmers, owning from 100 to 150 acres,'were fired at, and 10 of the largest graziers, mostly Roman Catholics, holding from 1,000 to 3,000 acres, were informed that their names were all down in the Ribbon list to be shot. Loi*d Crofton and others were forced to leave the county by repeated threats of assassination. The houses of the pea¬ santry were broken into, and the owners were forced upon their knees to take the Ribbon oath, and were forced to subscribe money for the defence of all prisoners taken under the Act. That was the state the country was in. We had the high roads patrolled night and day. There were bodies of police stationed upon the roads to protect the ordinary traffic up to the town of Roscommon. 3545. Sir G. Grey.~\ How many special con¬ stables did you swear in ?—I swore in about 200 in the year 1848, but I did not use nearly that number. 3546. Those were the special constables?—- Yes; that was the state of the county when the special constables were sworn in. I divided the body (they were men entirely from the barony of Frenehpark, tenants of my brother) into small bodies of from 10 to 15, and stationed them at the places which we considered most liable to be attacked by Ribbonmen from the other districts, keeping them at proper distances from each other, so that if one party was attacked, the other could come up as rapidly as possible to their assist¬ ance. I was out with them day and night. 3547. Were any of those special constables themselves Ribbonmen?—That is rather a diffi¬ cult question to answer, but I should say that there were some of them who were Ribbonmen. In fact, from the information which I got from them, they must have been Ribbonmen to have been able to tell me what they did, but they very soon shook off the Ribbonmen and became a party attached to order. 3548. Were they paid?—They are paid 1 s. a night; but they found in a very short time that they became the dominant party, and that the Ribbonmen were a very contemptible party. 3549. Chairman .] Will you state to the Com¬ mittee what they actually did ?—The special constables were stationed just as I told you ; they received letters from the Ribbonmen, threatening X that 146 - MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rt. Hon.Col. that they would come in and very soon settle F. French, all this attempt to impede their power; but m.p. our men took the thing very coolly, they burned - the letters as soon as they received them, and 3° March went out, some of them armed, but the greater 1 ^7 1 * part of them armed only with heavy cudgels; there were generally about three or four of them armed, but, practically, they never were attacked, and the Ribbonmen never came into the district; they never had force enough, and things got very quiet elsewhere throughout the country. 3550. Are the Committee to understand that the presence of these men alone was sufficient to put down Ribbonism?—Perfectly sufficient; the men stated to me themselves that they were very glad that they were brought together, because they were the men who had really suf¬ fered from the tyranny of the Ribbonmen, and could not defend their houses, but now that they were standing shoulder to shoulder they cared very little for the Ribbonmen; and I think they showed the Ribbonmen afterwards how little they cared for them, both at fairs and markets. 3551. Did these special constables make any arrests?—No; I tell you nobody came in; no attack was made upon them. But with reference to the persons who committed the murders which I have alluded to, the result was that confidence came into the country ; the juries convicted them all, and every man connected with these murders was hanged, the three murderers of Major Mahon and the murderer of Mr. Lloyd; and several of the men who were taken up for firing were transported. 3552. Then evidence was to be had?—Evi¬ dence was to be had everywhere. 3553. Sir G. Grey.~\ Iiow long after the mur¬ der of Major Mahon were the persons arrested who committed the murder?—I think that Major hi ah on was shot at the end of 1847, and I think the men were hanged at the Spring Assizes of 1849. 3554. Was there originally after the crime was committed a difficulty in obtaining evidence to charge anybody with the crime?—Very great difficulty ; so strong was the feeling amongst the people that they illuminated all the hills around on the night of his death. 3555. By what means was the evidence ob¬ tained ?—By their not fearing the body that had done these things, and coming forward and giving evidence. I should mention that the entire amount that they cost us in the county of Ros¬ common, was 160/., which was paid out of the barony of Frenchpark. 3556. How long were the constables kept on duty ?—About a month or six weeks. 3557. Mr. Serjeant Sherlock^] We have heard a great deal of the state of Westmeath, which I gather is not as bad as it was at this time; do you think that it would be necessary now to re¬ port to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act?—I am opposed to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act for many reasons. First, the effect of the suspension is merely temporary; when you take off the pressure, up it starts again. W e never have seen any beneficial consequences arising from the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. It condones all the negligence of the local magistracy, to which I think a good deal may be fairly attributed. A great deal of the difficulties Government has had to contend with are due to ■delay ; and it also condones a good deal of want of vigour on the part of the executive govern¬ ment, and it weakens the self-reliance of the people. I do not see any beneficial result from it at all, nor do I see any reason why the law which I have quoted of the 2nd & 3rd of William the Fourth, is not perfectly sufficient to meet the difficulty. I have found when the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended that it acted much more annoyingly to the people who had nothing to say to it than to those who were actually guilty. I could understand the suspension' of the Habeas Corpus Act as being advantageous to prevent crime in this way. If a man came from America for the purpose of committing crime, you would arrest him, but l do not see that it is any good being able to shut up a man whom you have no evidence against for a certain time. 3558. I collect that your opinion is, that the police force is too much of a military force to be so efficient as if it was less so?—My opinion - is, that the police force is too much of a military lorce, though I have heard that the officer in command, Sir John Wood, has made some alte¬ ration in that respect, in order to make them more useful as detectives. He is a distinguished soldier, and he has a taut hand in making the men under him do their duty, and if he does that, I think he may very much improve the police in their detective position ; but as soldiers he could not have anything better, I think, though the regulation that they are not to be stationed in counties they are connected with by birth or marriage diminishes their efficiency in my opinion. 3559. Mr. Solicitor General for Irelandf In those days were there not armed bands wander¬ ing about the country ?—There were, putting people on their knees, with pistols to their heads, and making them take the oath. 3560. Were your special constables moved about?—Yes, they were. 3561. Your special constables were a sort of armed neutrality ?—They were men protecting their own lives and property. 3562. Did they do anything ?—No, because the others took very great care that there was nothing to do. 3563. They walked about the roads at night ? —They did, and no stranger was allowed in the district. 3564. Do you think that a body of constables would be equally effective in counties where armed bands do not march round the roads at night, but where there is a secret conspiracy breaking out in acts of outrage in various loca¬ lities ?—Those acts of outrage which break out occasionally come from certain orders of' the Ribbonmen; and I believe the bulk of the peo¬ ple to be as anxious as anybody to put an end to that system which is now frightening them all out of their lives. 3565. But how could the special constables do that?—Take the case of Westmeath; you have 17 deputy lieutenants; you have 115 magis¬ trates ; you have but 12 baronies; and is it not a matter of course that if those men would exert themselves in their position, with their local influence and everything of that kind, these things would be nipped in the bud ? But if the magistrates are afraid to act, and let the whole thing depend upon the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, there will be no good done. The Executive have in place of the local knowledge, personal influence of the local magistracy, 147 SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). only the exertions of 73 stipendiary magistrates to rely on, the sole qualification for whose ap¬ pointment is to be under 40 years of age. 3566. Do you suggest that there should be a vigilance committee ?—I am told that you will have a vigilance committee before long. I have been told that it has been considered whether it is not advisable that Captain Duffy should be shot. At Mr. Perry’s brewery, where they shot Mr. Perry’s man, a man came to the place and asked for it; and Mr. Perry said to him, “ How could you wish to take a place where a man has been murdered ? And he said, “ I will risk that; there is only one man who could get me shot, and I will have an inkling of it; and he would know his days would be numbered if I heard of it.” 3567. Is it not the fact that the local magis¬ trates must put themselves in motion to apply for power to swear in these special constables?— Any two of them under the Act of the 2nd & Rt. Hon. Col. 3rd of William the Fourth may do so. The Right F - French, honourable Member for Morpeth had a good deal m.p. of communication with us upon the subject when- he was Home Secretary with Lord Clarendon, 30 ^ Iarch and at that time was good enough to say that he 1871 • would mention in Parliament his approval of the course I had taken if I would furnish him with the circumstance, but I thought that as the thing was done the less that was said the better. 3568. Mr. Gregory.'] You stated to the Com¬ mittee that the repeal of the Habeas Corpus Act has always been a perfect failure ; has it ever been applied with regard to Ribbon outrages ?— It has been applied more as regards Fenianism, but I do not say that it has not been applied as regards Ribbonism. I do not recollect, but I do not think that it has. The Witness withdrew. / ( 148 ) _ . t *■ *' f • <• f ‘J t - * • - - • * ■. * V.i • . i • ; : [ M9 ] LIST OF APPENDIX. Appendix, No. 1. Paper handed in by the Chairman : page. Observations by Mr. Seed, Crown Solicitor, on Crime in Ireland .... 151 Appendix, No. 2. Paper handed in by the Chairman : Return showing the Number and Nature of Warrants Issued for the Collection of Extra Police Tax since the 23rd December 1868, the Date on which His Excellency Earl Spencer was sworn in to the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland - - - - 153 Memorandum of Additional Police sent into the Counties of Kings, Meath, and West¬ meath, since the 1 st January 1870 - -- -- -- -- 154 Appendix, No. 3. Paper handed in by the Chairman : County of Westmeath.—Return of Homicides from 1 st January 1848 to present Date, inclusive; also, of the Number of Cases of Firing at the Person during the same Period -------------- 155 Appendix, No. 4. Paper handed in by the Chairman : County of Meath.—Spring- Assizes, 1871.—Report of the Charge of the Right Honour¬ able the Lord Chief Justice to the Grand Jury - - - - - - -159 County Westmeath.—Spring Assizes, 2 nd March 1871. —Crown Court.—Charge of the Judge to the Grand Jury of the County - - - - - - - -161 Memorandum by Mr. Seed, Crown Solicitor - - - - - - - -162 Appendix, No. 5. Paper handed in by the Chairman : King’s County.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1st January 1870 to 28th February 1871.164 Precis of Cases referred to - - - - - - - - - - -165 County of Meath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 st January 1870 to 28th Februarv 1871 ------------ - 166 V Precis of Cases referred to - - - - - - - - - - -168 County of Westmeath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 st January 1870 to 28th February 1871 ------------ - 169 Precis of Cases referred to.- - - - -172 Appendix, No. 6. Paper handed in by the Chairman : County Inspectors’ Reports laid before Judge of Assize : County of Westmeath: Return of all Offences committed in the above County since Summer Assizes 1869 to Spring Assizes 1870, so far as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary - * - - ' " * * “ " -17/ Return of all Offences committed in the above County since Summer Assizes 1870, so far as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary - - 186 Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the last Spring Assizes, so far as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary - - 192 [ '50 Appendix, No. (i— continued. County Inspectors’ Reports laid before Judge of Assize continued. King’s County : Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the lost Assizes, so far as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary, dated 8 July 1870 . Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the last Assizes, so far as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary, dated 1 March 1871 - Appendix, No. /• Paper handed in by the Chairman : County of Meath: Return of Offences reported to the Judges of Assize.—Spring Assizes, 1870 - Return of Offences reported to the Judges of Assize.—Summer Assizes, 1870 Return of Offences reported to the Judges of Assize.—Spring Assizes, 1871 PAGE. 198 204 212 218 222 [ 151 ] APPENDIX. Appendix, No. 1. PAPER handed in by the Chairman. Appendix, No. Crime in Ireland. Observations by Mr. Seed, Crown Solicitor. The following are a few facts and observations on the present state of crime in Ireland, and on the allegations that proper steps have not been taken by the Government for its suppression. The allegations so frequently put forth in the latter part of the year 1869 and beginning of 1870 being now renewed, assailing the Government for supineness and delay in not adopting proper measures for the suppression of crime, I take the liberty of offering a few observations upon that subject, which possibly may be found useful. First. With reference to the state of crime:—Although at present there are two or three districts in Ireland in which outrages to some extent prevail, still serious crime is nearly one-half less prevalent now than it was in several past years, and in many counties it has ceased altogether. In Meath, for instance, which was the most disturbed county in Ireland in 1868 and 1869 and in the early part of 1870, there has been literally none in comparison, and peace and tranquillity have been entirely restored. An unanswerable proof of which exists in the fact that at the Spring Assizes of 1870, no less than 47 criminal cases were prosecuted by the Crown in that county, under the direction of the Attorney General, while at the approaching assizes there is, up to the present moment, but one case to be prosecuted by the Crown Solicitor, and that is for simple larceny ; and on the entire Home Circuit, with the exception of Westmeath, there is scarcely any agrarian or aggravated crime. On the Leinster Circuit, with the exception of five or six cases in Tipperary and Waterford, there is also none. On the Munster Circuit, including Clare, Limerick, Kerry, and Cork, there are also comparatively but very few. On the North-East Circuit there are but five or six. The North-West Circuit stands in a similar position. And on the Connaught Circuit, including the county of Galway, which in 1868 and 1869 was considerably disturbed, there is literally no agrarian crime in comparison; and at the various quarter sessions in Ireland held during the last nine months, the number of cases for trial were much fewer than for several past years, which of itself furnishes a pretty clear proof of the decrease of crime. What then is the real and true state of Ireland as regards the commission of crime, notwithstanding the frequent allegations to the contrary ? Compare it with years gone by, when in almost every county there were from 50 to 80 Ci'own prosecutions at each assizes, it is really nothing; and it is because of the comparatively peaceable state of the country that when even a solitary outrage occurs here and there, the whole community takes alarm, the grossest reports are circulated, and the mere apprehension of a return to the distressing crimes of former years, induces exaggeration and excites terror. It is, therefore, idle to say that crime has increased, and equally so, that proper means have not been taken for its suppression. Look to the measures that have been adopted within the last 18 months for this purpose ; two special commissions have been held; the Peace Preservation Act has been put into operation; general and sweeping searches for arms have been made from time to time, resulting in the disarmament of a vast number of the disaffected; large bodies of troops 0.50. X were 152 ArrENMX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 1. were sent down to different parts of the country when necessary ; the constabulary force __ was largely augmented in the disturbed districts, assisted by experienced detectives specially selected and employed; constant night patrols visited every part of the country; additional resident magistrates were sent to such districts as required fhem ; the Attorney General, who is ever watchful and always efficient, prosecuted in person in all important cases; the Crown Solicitors, under his direction, have been ordered to attend and investi¬ gate all serious crimes whenever and wherever they occur; large rewards have been offered for the discovery of crime; persons who have given honest and truthful information have been placed under the protection and support of the Crown; the exertions of the constabu¬ lary, under their able and efficient inspector general, have been unremitting; and the law has been enforced by the Executive with greater promptitude and firmness than I ever recollect it to have been at any former period. Tims every step that it is possible to conceive, or to have been suggested to be taken, has been taken to suppress crime, unless, indeed, it be the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, for which, however, in my humble judgment, there is no present occasion. The spirit of the country is more peaceable; the administration of justice is becoming more respected and more feared than it ever yet has been ; the people are being taught that the law is more powerful than themselves, and that in upholding it they find their surest protection for their lives and properties; and, as in times past, so will it (I firmly believe) be now, crime will decrease in a tenfold ratio, and the improved and improving condition of the country and of the people under recent legislation, and the present firm and impartial enforcement and administration of the law, will yet restore it to perfect tranquillity and peace. In all countries crime must exist to a certain extent; it is almost one of the laws of nature that it should be so, and it is utter folly to expect that Ireland can be the sole exception, though I do believe that at this present time it is, as a whole, freer from serious and aggravated crime than any other country in Europe. If the measures which have been already taken to effect this great object should prove insufficient, it is just possible that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in certain districts (not generally) might be beneficial; for instance, in some of the recent outrages the guilty parties are tvell known, although there may not be sufficient legal evidence to convict them, and the summary arrest and imprisonment of such persons might be attended with the best results. It might become necessary also to pass an Act or Acts confining the people in their dwellings after dark, and enabling the Queen’s Bench, in certain cases, to change the venue, or authorise two or more judges to try them without the intervention of a jury; but, as I have already stated, I think there is no present need of measures so extreme, however justifiable and necessary they might become under circumstances which, I firmly believe and think, will not at present arise. S. Seed, Crown Solicitor. Sarahville, Killiney, 11 February 1871. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 153 Appendix, No. 2. PAPER handed in by the Chairman. RETURN showing the Number and Nature of Warrants Issued for the Collection of Extra Police Tax since the 23rd of December 1868, the Date on which His Excellency Earl Spencer was sworn in to the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland. COUNTY. DISTRICT. Number of Constables. OUTRAGE. Period and Commencement of Warrant. Amount Levied. Poundage. £. 8. d. . 8. d. Donegal - Arryheernabin, kc. 6 Firing at John Murphy, Lord Leitrim’s bailiff. Six months from 16 March 1869. 147 3 8 2 Leitrim - Parish of Mohill - 5 Murder of Mr. O’Brien - Three months from 27 Oc¬ tober 1869. 61 6 7 4 4 Parish of Mohill - 5 Murder of Mr. O’Brien - Six months from 10 May 1869. 122 13 2 8 8 Limerick - Townland of Clonteen - 4 Rev. A. M'J.oughlin threatened. Threemonths from 29 J uly 1869. 49 1 3 1 4 Mayo - Townland of Menacloughfinny 6 Murder of Mr. James Hunter. Three months from 27 Sep¬ tember 1869. 66 14 5 4 H Barony of Costelloe 5 Mrs. Beytagh threatened Three months from 19 Feb¬ ruary 1870. 61 6 7 2 7 Townlands of Farmhill, &c. - 5 Miss Gardiner fired at - Three months from 20 Jan¬ uary 1870. 21 12 3 o A 8 Townland of Aghagower 5 Captain Houston’s herd threatened. Six months from 16 March 1870. 122 13 2 - 5 Townland of Cuilmore, &c. - 5 Captain Hunter’s shep¬ herd. Three months from 18 August 1870. 61 6 7 5 3 Townland of Illanmore - 2 Mr. Blake’s herd - Three months from 1 Oc¬ tober 1870. 7 16 - 5 - Meath ... Townland of Ballinlough 6 Morgan Rotheran fired at Six months from 16 March 1869. 147 3 8 1 5 Roscommon ancl Mayo Townland of Curraghsallagh 1 Townland of Kilcashel, kc. - j 5 Outrage on Patrick Cur- rigan. Three months from 1 Feb¬ ruary 1870. 61 6 7 1 2 Townland of Curraghsallagh 1 Townland of Kilcashel, &c. - / 5 additional Outrage on Patrick Cur- rigan. Three months from 11 March 1870. 61 6 7 1 2 Tipperary Townland of Cappagh, &e. 6 Murder of Mr. Bradshaw Three months from 1 June 1869. 73 11 10 - 10 Westmeath Townland of Walshertown, South. 4 Firing at William Cassidy Three months from 3 Feb¬ ruary 1869. 49 1 3 1 Township of Mullingar - 9 Murder of Mr. Anketell - Thiee months from 12 March 1869. 110 7 10 - 4 Townland of Cloneyhaigue, &c. 5 Mr. Hornidge fired at and threatened. Three months from 20 Jan¬ uary 1869. 61 6 7 1 - Townland of Cloneyhaigue, kc. 2 Mr. Hornidge fired at and threatened. Three months from 29 Sep¬ tember 1869. 24 10 8 - 4* 0.50. x 2 154 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE - Return showing the Number and Nature of Warrants issued for the collection of Extra Police fax_ continued. COUNTY. DISTRICT. Number of Constables. OUTRAGE. Period and Commencement of Warrant. Amount Levied. Poundage. Westmeath Townland of Castletown, &c. - 4 Patrick Byrne threatened Three months from 25 March 1869. £. d. 49 1 3 s. d. ~ -i Townland of Kilcumney, &c. - 6 Edward Bolton threatened Six months from 18 March 1869. 147 3 8 - 10 Townland of Clonbonny, &c. - 6 Captain Tarleton’s mur¬ der. Three months from29 April 1869. 73 11 10 - 8} Townland of Ardnagraph 6 Threatened attack on Mr. Gray and Walderstown Barracks, &c. Three months from 22 No¬ vember 1869. 73 9 8 1 1 Townland of Knockycosker - 5 Murder of Francis Dowling Three months from 9 De¬ cember 1870. tion, but amount ha.- transmitted ceiver. This warrant is in course of collec- none of the as yet been to the Re- 2 2 Townlauds of Raliarney, kc. - 5 Firing at Constable Sup¬ ple. Three monthsfrom 24 Jan¬ uary 1871. ■Warrant no issued. D finally sett t as yet istrict* not led. Kings - Townlands of Kilfoylan, &c. - 5 Firing at Michael Moran Three months from 1 Fe¬ bruary 1870. Warrant not as yet issued. District* not finally settled. * The expense of five men for three months is 61 1. 6 s. 7 cl. MEMORANDUM of Additional Police sent into the Counties of Kings, Meath, and Westmeath, since the 1st January 1870. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 155 Appendix, No. 3. PAPER handed in by the Chairman. COUNTY OF WESTMEATH. Appendix, No. 3. RETURN of Homicides from 1st January 1848 to present Date, inclusive; also, of the Number of Cases of Firing at the Person during the same Period. RETURN of Homicides committed in Westmeath during the Period commencing 1st January 1848, and terminating at the present Date, the Particulars of which are herein given. Homicides. Total Number - - - - - 40 Convictions for Wilful Murder - Executions - Cases. Persons. 2 # 1 * 4 2 Mn each case two persons for the same crime. Firing at the Person. There were also in same period 55 cases of tiring at the person, of which the results as to criminal proceedings have been as follows, viz. :— In 30 cases, no arrests made. In 1 case, suspected party went to America. In 18 cases, arrests made, but no conviction. In 1 case, doubtful. In 5 cases, convictions. 55 X 3 0.50. 156 APrEKDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 3 Westmeath. Homicides since 1848, inclusive, to present date. 1848. —John Cook, murdered in a field; an arrest, but no trial recorded. James Flanagan, age 16, waylaid and murdered; no arrest. Lowden M‘Williams, soldier, died of a beating received; one arrest, but bill ignored. 1849. —James Curley, shot in bis own bouse ; an agrarian quarrel amongst relatives. Martin and Denis Curley convicted, and sentenced to death; executed. Pat Connor, gardener, was stabbed to death, for supposed fidelity to bis master. John Rogers and Pat Quigley convicted, and sentenced to death. Sentence subsequently commuted to transportation. Thomas Flynn, shot dead while attempting to take possession of disputed pro¬ perty. William Vize, Esq., J.P., the gentleman in possession, tried and ac¬ quitted. 1850. —Roger North, Esq., j.p., shot dead near his own residence. He was about to evict tenants ; out of several persons arrested, three were arraigned at suc¬ cessive assizes, and trial postponed from time to time. Two policemen sent to New York to endeavour to arrest Darley Daly, but failed. 1851. — James Carey, shot; verdict of wilful murder against James Kenny, who was arraigned at successive assizes, but trial postponed. At spring assizes, 1853, he was finally discharged for want of evidence. Walter Dyre, labourer, fatally assaulted while walking with a woman. The sup¬ posed assailant absconded. 1852. —In a dispute among robbers concerning the division of booty, a man named Mur- tagh or Murdoch was shot dead, and buried in a bog. Some of the offenders were convicted and transported. Thomas Cooney, waylaid, robbed, and beaten to death ; the offender (Hugh Lunney) arrested, convicted, and sentenced to death (i.e. in 1854). John Lyons, labourer (a stranger who had obtained employment), beaten to to death; two men arrested, but discharged for want of evidence. Mich. Regney, skull fractured from a blow of a stone, of which he died. This was a drunken quarrel; seven were arrested, but as the actual offender could not be ascertained, they were all discharged. 1853. —Thomas Farrell, shot dead in his own house ; an agrarian outrage. Two arrests, but discharged for want of evidence. Thomas Kerry, beaten to death; a fruit of the Ribbon Society. Two persons arrested ; trial postponed, and final discharge in one case, acquittal in the other. 1856.—James Carey, beaten to death by three or four men who had attacked his son, and to whose assistance he had come; two men arrested, and convicted; two years’ imprisonment, with hard labour. James Kerr, labourer, killed by the blow of a hammer on the head; offender convicted; 18 months’ imprisonment, with hard labour. Mrs. Sarah Kelly, a lady of immense wealth, shot dead while walking with her nephew, Mr. George Stevens, in a field near her demesne. The nephew was suspected, and tried at two successive Assizes, but finally discharged; another man was also tried on charge of conspiracy to murder, but finally discharged. Owen McLaughlen, waylaid and beaten to death ; his son had replaced a discharged farm servant. Two men arrested, and convicted in 1863, but sentence deferred, awaiting decision of Court of Criminal Appeal; finally discharged by Chief Baron Pigot at Spring Assizes, 1864. 1858. —Edward Kelly, respectable farmer, waylaid and shot dead ; he had taken some land which another was anxious to get; some arrests w~ere made, but no persons were returned for trial. Mary Gavagan, labourer’s wife, who lived on bad terms with her husband, was found dead with skull fractured. Pat Coffey arrested ; trial postponed from time to time ; Coffey was finally let out on bail at Spring Assizes, 1859, to appear when called on. 1859. — Thomas Jessop, farmer, shot dead ; he had taken a farm in connection with which Edward Kelly had been shot {see above) ; several arrests w r ere made without success. Thomas Geraghty, labourer, was murdered and thrown into a bog hole ; a drunken quarrel; two arrests and convictions; three years’ penal servitude in each case. Pat Lyons, labourer, died from injuries on the head inflicted by two navvies, who were convicted and sentenced each to seven years’ penal servitude. James Boylan, labourer, died from a stab in the abdomen received when returning from a funeral; offender sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment, with hard labour. 1859.—Lawrence. 157 ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 1859.—Lawrence Kelly, farmer, shot dead while sitting at his dinner ; he had advertised Appendix, No. 3. that he would dispose of a portion of his land in Conacre ; one man arrested, but _ discharged. 1861. —Owen Sullivan, labourer, died from an injury received on the head; one man arrested and tried, but acquitted. 1862. —Michael Bannon, farmer, murdered in a field near his own house. There had been a family dispute about his property. Mother-in-law arraigned at the assizes, but no bill found. Another member of the family tried at same assizes, but jury disagreed. 1863. —Peter Fielding, farmer, was returning home at night, and received a blow on the head, which proved fatal; five persons arrested, but no sufficient evidence. Christopher Crosby, labourer, stabbed in the thigh, and died soon afterwards. Offender convicted : eighteen months’ imprisonment, with hard labour. Pat. Connor, carpenter, waylaid and beaten to death. He had given information to the magistrates, and was supposed therefore to be unpopular. Thirteen per¬ sons arrested, but discharged for want of evidence. 1864. — Peter AValsh, farmer, died from injuries received when attacked by an armed party; his father had rented land from which previous tenant had been evicted; four men were tried at assizes, but discharged. 1865. —Pat. M*'Auley, labourer, died from a stab in the abdomen; a drunken quarrel; nine months’ imprisonment, with hard labour. 1868. —James Howard Fetherston Plaugli, Esq., J. P., shot dead at midnight, returning from Dublin to his residence; some time previously he had raised his rents; three men, arrested on suspicion, but ultimately discharged for want of evidence, and two of them have since emigrated to America. 1869. —Thomas Anketell, station-master at Mullingar, shot; died shortly afterwards; the cause, as some think, was traceable to ill-will entertained towards him on account of his faith, fulness, and determination in the discharge of his duty. Patrick Murray and Patrick Byrne were fully committed for trial for the offence, but after having been in custody for nine months, were discharged at Spring Assizes, 1870, the Crown not considering the evidence sufficiently strong to send the case before a jury. Captain Rowland Tarleton, of the King’s County Militia, was shot dead by some person or persons unknown, who, it is believed, was or were concealed in an angle of the field through which he was passing; William and John Byrne (brothers), and Michael Dowd, nephew of the latter, and Thomas Hickey, were arrested, and subsequently discharged, for want of evidence. 1870 . —Michael Kerigan, farmer, died from the effects of a gunshot wound, inflicted by some person unknown, who fired into his dwelling at night; he had taken five acres of land from a man named Austin, who afterwards repented the agreement, and the latter having attempted to resume forcible possession (in doing which he assuulted Kerigan) was summoned to petty sessions ; it was there decreed that Kerigan should have the land ; he shortly afterwards received a letter threaten¬ ing him with death; Austin was arrested, but upon investigation, no sufficient evidence could be produced to warrant his detention ; he was therefore dis¬ charged. James Hiney, farmer, died from the effects of a blow on the head, inflicted in a drunken quarrel by some person when deceased was returning from the fair of Moate. Hiney remained speechless from the time he received the injury until he died. Luke Kelly, the suspected party, absconded, but afterwards surren¬ dered himself, and was brought before the magistrates in petty sessions, but dis¬ charged from want of sufficient evidence to justify the case being sent to trial. There was an evident unwillingness on the part of the relatives of the deceased to prosecute, and the swearing was very contradictory. Francis Dowling, an army pensioner, steward to Messrs. Perry, of Ballinagore Mills, when returning from his office in the evening, and about entering the gate-house where he resided, was fired at, and shot dead by some person unknown, who, from the impression made by his knee when taking aim, appears to have been concealed about two or three yards on Dowling’s right. Four pellets struck Dowling. Deceased was an inoffensive man, and generally liked. About two years ago a man was dismissed from Messrs. Perry’s em¬ ployment. Fie was succeeded by Dowling. Revenge for this is the only motive assigned for the crime. Messrs. Perry have been three times noticed by threatening letters to discharge four persons, of whom Dowling was one ; and about six months ago were informed that a man was told off' to shoot Dowling. Two men were arrested (one of whom was the party dismissed), but both were discharged for want of evidence. x 4 0.50. 1870. —Thomas 158 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 3. 1870.—Thomas Waters, process server, was found by a police patrol, one mile from - Mullingar, at 11 o’clock p.m., shot dead; his body still warm. There were three bullet wounds in his left breast. The Rev. Mr. Crofton, of Louth, about a month ago resolved upon evicting a notorious Ribbon leader, who had refused to pay an increased rent, but so great was the dread of this man that no one could be found to serve the ejectment notice. Waters at last undertook the task. His death deprives the landlord of proof that the notice was served, and the t enant in question will, in consequence, retain his farm for six months longer. It is believed that the crime was resolved on and carried out under the directions of the Ribbon conspiracy. The police repeatedly warned deceased of the danger of associating with known members of that society, and frequently escorted him (contrary to his wish) part of the way home. These persons, all notorious Ribbonmen, were ar¬ rested. One of the three was seen drinking with Waters during the entire day of the murder. Three persons have since been discharged from want of evidence. ON AVEST3IEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 1.59 Appendix, No. 4. • PAPERS handed in by the Chairman. County of Meath. —Spring Assizes, 1871. Appendix, No. 4. REPORT of the Charge of the Right Honourable the Lord Chief Justice to the Grand Jury. Trim, Monday, 27th February 1871.—Before Lord Chief Justice Whiteside. Charge to Grand Jury. Mr. Foreman, and Gentlemen of the Grand Jury, it is satisfactory to me to see so> full an attendance of your Grand Jury, for it is important to the administration of justice that those who have a stake in the county should take a prominent part in the performance of that important duty. I congratulate you upon the state of the calendar, but I do so with moderation and caution. The cases actually returned for trial are few, and there is only one case, that of an assault on a bailiff, which may contain any principle of insubor¬ dination to the law. There are cases of larceny, &c., which need no particular comment from me. But, before I allude to the state of crime in your county, I may make an observation upon the Report of the Inspector General of Prisons. He appears to be a competent man, and he seems to think that you have laid out too much money on your gaol. He thinks it is too extensive, and that the management is too expensive, which is, he says, to be attributed to the faulty construction of the building. He gives a, schedule of the crimes and sentences on prisoners, and observes that it appears that some habitual criminals frequent this district, who, under an improved prison system, would be removed to a central depot, as in Scotland. He finds that during the past year the number of females in gaol was 32, of whom 20 had been but once in custody, while 12 had 322 commitals recorded against them, showing how completely the female prisoners are confined to a few who are almost con¬ stantly in prison. He then observes that it appears from the police returns that although female criminals are very few in the district, the number of beggars and destitute persons of that sex is very large. He observes that the police returns prove that in this, one of the richest counties in Ireland, an unusually large number of the most destitute class exists, especially among females, who, although in the greatest poverty, still abstain from crime. Therefore it appears that whatever crimes have been committed in these counties, those crimes have not been committed by paupers. He also observes that there is no place in your prison in which to keep children separate from adult criminals. That is an important observation, because if young persons be allowed to be in contact with hardened criminals, they will themselves become corrupted. There is another document to which I desire to invite your attention, and that is the very well-prepared report of the constabulary officer of your county. There is no use in keeping back the truth, and from this document shows that the class of persons who have been attacked in your county (and for outrages of this kind no one has been made amenable) are stewards, bailiffs, or owners of property. The document states that as Mr. Riggs, a land steward, in the employment of Mr. Battersby, was returning from Castlepollard, accompanied by his father and another person, two shots were fired by two men on the roadside, without, however, injuring any¬ one, and the constabulary officer thinks that the motive was because this man had per¬ formed his duty. That is not a satisfactory state of tilings in your county. There is another instance, that of a man named Bryan Callaghan, land bailiff to the Earl of Fingall, who, when returning from the fair of Navan, Avas assaulted by three men on the road, and, strange to say, although he Avas accompanied by three persons, they did not render him any assistance. It is said, in the Report, that possibly this man had prosecuted a tenant for cutting turf. That is another instance of an outrage on the high road, perpe¬ trated on a man Avho Avas innocent of any offence except that of having done his duty to his employer. Under the head of “Malicious burnings,” there is an instance of an unoc¬ cupied house having been burned, and the observation as to the motive is “ dislike to the te Aval d 0.50. Y There Appendix, No. 4 160 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE There is also the case of a man named Mathew Reid, and it appears that a range of outhouses and a quantity of stock, altogether value for 1,000/., belonging to him, were set on fire and burned. The reason assigned in the report for this outrage is “ being un¬ popular.” Now that is so repulsive to all our notions, not only of law but of common humanity, that I have read it with pain. It seems, according to the notions of these law¬ less men, that if a man is unpopular, you may make away with him. That shows an unsatisfactory state of things; the more so, when we read, that although the police, as I firmly believe they did in this case, and in the others, made every exertion to detect the offenders, no person has, as yet, been made amenable. No reflection can be made upon the officials of this county for not doing that, which I quite believe they find to be impos¬ sible. There is a case of robbery of arms, in which the house of a man, named Robert Shiels, was forced open in the night by three men, who carried off a gun. It is not likely that such persons intended to make a right use of the weapon. It is observed in the Report that this farmer had been granted the protection of the police, and that in May last he had been fired at through the window of his own house. That is a most alarming description of outrage. There is another class of outrages, from which farmers, a most important class in an agricultural county, appear to suffer even more than the gentry. An instance of this happened to a man named Lennon. Three men went to his house, and demanded admittance. He refused ; and was threatened with certain consequences if he continued to mow his corn. Two shots were fired, and the party left There is another instance of outrage, accompanied by an act, for which, if the perpetrators were before me, there is no punishment allowed by the law which I would not feel it my duty to in¬ flict. I allude to cases of intimidation by the administering of an unlawful oath. Eight men went to a farmer’s house, administered to him an unlawful oath, and threatened to shoot him if he continued to speak disparagingly of Fenians or Ribbon- men. I should have liked to have seen the informations in this case. But it appears that the informations are not returned to the assizes where no person has been made amenable, and where it is hoped that more information may be obtained. Therefore I am only giving the results, accurately reported, I have no doubt, by such excellent authority as the constabulary of the county. This is a very serious offence, and shows a spirit of disaffection, which must be encountered by the strong arm of the law. In another case 12 men went to a man’s house, and called upon him to give up a farm which he had taken and from which a tenant had been recently evicted. It appears they went there again and administered to him an unlawful oath to give up the farm. That is a daring outrage and ought to be a lesson to this man, and to others of his class, of what their fate would be if such persons got into power. The Report does not say whether he took the oath, but I infer that he did. In another case, seven men went to a labourer’s house, presented a revolver at him, assaulted his son and ran off. It is to be deplored that as yet, the offenders have not been brought to justice. There are only two cases of sending threatening letters, which so far shows an improve¬ ment in the state of your county; of those, but one needs observation. It is that of a threatening letter sent to your station mnster ; and this reminds me painfully of a circum¬ stance which occurred about a year ago in a neighbouring county. Then, as I was return¬ ing from my assize duties, I saw a very respectable man on the platform of the railway station. In 48 hours afterwards I read of his assassination. Here the station master had simply done his duty, and I can only say that if the writer of that letter was now before me, and convicted, it would be a very long time before he would write another letter of the kind. It is a mistake to suppose that men who commit this offence cannot be reached by the law : and it is the feeling of every Member of the Bench that it is a cowardly offence, which causes great misery, and should be dealt with severely. You cannot have better officials than you have in this county. It is impossible that you can have a more experienced and competent official than your Crown solicitor, and the other officials here. These officials state, that within the last six months there has been a great improvement in the state of this county, but still there are matters which sIioav that it is still not satisfactory: for it is said that there are persons in this county, of your own rank, who cannot go far from their homes, or even attend the assizes here, without great danger of being shot. That is a horrible fact. It is dreadful to think that in this rich county, men should, for some supposed offences against them, lie in wait, day after day, watching, tiger-like, for an opportunity to assassinate their victims. Your county is not the worst on this circuit, for, l am sorry to say, the neighbouring county is still worse. I admire those who do yield to intimidation. I believe that these aggressors to be comparatively few, and that they are as well watched as they can be, by the police authorities here ; but the fact, if it be a fact, that any man in your county should be afraid to follow his lawful calling, ought to awaken the attention of every well-wisher to his country, to see how he can best repress such insubordination and crime. There is no such safeguard as a firm administration of the law, and you will best discharge your duties by standing your ground and giving your best assistance to sustain those who are employed in endeavouring to preserve the peace, especially when the chief ruler of this county is, as I believe, most anxious to enforce the administration of the law and to obtain that tranquillity in the country, which every right-minded man desires. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 161 Letter from Mr. Julian to the Under Secretary. Sir, Court House, Mullingar, 2 March 1871. Having regard to the present state of the county of Westmeath, and to the action now being taken by the Government in relation to it, I thought it right to have a short¬ hand note taken of the charge to the grand jury of Chief Justice Monahan, which has been transcribed, and a copy of which is herein enclosed. The grand jury inform me that they have telegraphed to the Government a resolution unanimously passed by this body in favour of such measures as the Government may think proper to take to meet the present disturbed state of the county. The presentments made by the grand jury in the cases of the murder of Francis Dowling and Thomas Waters have been affirmed by the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. I have, &c. Thos. H. Burke, Esq., (signed) John Julian. Under Secretary, &c., Castle, Dublin. County Westmeath —Spring Assizes, 2 March 1871. Crown Court. Charge of the Judge to the Grand Jury of the County. Chief Justice Monahan .] Mr. Handcock and gentlemen of the Grand Jury for the County of Westmeath, it is with very great regret indeed that I feel it to be my duty, looking over the returns furnished to me by the constabulary of the county, to say to you that the county is in such a state as to be a source of annoyance and grief to everybody who is interested in the welfare of it. When I was last here, gentlemen, the county was in an unpleasant state, but I indulged in the hope that things would mend ; I find, upon the contrary, that things have proceeded from bad to worse, and that the county is in a state that it is almost impossible for me to conceive or to describe, and one cannot wonder that it has engaged the attention of Her Majesty’s Government. I only trust and hope that the proceedings which are now being taken in Parliament will result in measures being devised that will be productive of improvement, and afford some safety to the inhabitants of this county. From the list before me, I find that in the months of Novem¬ ber and December last, two men, one named Dowling, were shot, Dowling died imme¬ diately, his death being the result of the wound received by him. The other man, a police constable, named Waters, was also shot. There is likewise the case of a man named Heaney or Hiney, who was wounded and assaulted, which assault terminated in his death. With respect to the two cases in which these parties were shot, the misfortune and peculiarity of each case is, that although in all human probability the offender is known to many persons, no one will come forward with information or other assistance to lead to his conviction ; and the assassins, whoever they may be, are at present at large. There are, in addition to these cases, some four cases, in which the intervention of Providence prevented them from being cases of murder. These are cases in which men were fired at and wounded. I shall not make the observations upon this case, which otherwise I would make, owing to the circumstance that in three of the cases the accused have been made amenable to justice; and therefore I do not like prejudging the case that you, gentlemen, shall have to investigate, and I possibly shall have to try, with the assistance of a petty jury. With respect to this case, gentlemen, I shall only say, your duty is a simple one, to hear, examine, and sift the evidence; and if the evidence satisfies you as to the identity of the accused party, to find true bills. This is the only question in the case. I have had upon previous occasions the honour and pleasure of your assistance; I am quite aware of your acquaintance with matters of this description. It is unnecessary for me to occupy your time, or the time of the public, by making any observatious upon this case. There is in addition to the case of dreadful violence to which I have referred, several cases of very serious assault; in a few, a very few of these cases, the parties have been made amenable ; in the other cases the persons injured have, in several instances, a disposition to come forward, but in consequence of the Reign of Terror existing in your county, the parties injured have not the confidence in the protection of the law, which justifies or enables them to come forward and aid in bringing the perpetrators to justice. In the same Avay there are some four or five cases of burning houses ; most of these have not resulted from private injury, or from jealousy, but from agrarian crime. There are some cases of robbery, which will occur in almost all populous places, and in reference to which 0.50. Y 2 it Appendix, No. 4. 162 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 4. it is unnecessary for me to make any observation. There are some five or six cases of —— maiming cattle and sheep, through malicious motives. These cases always come toge¬ ther ; where parties are assaulted, they have recourse to the houghing or otherwise injuring the property of the party who renders himself, for some reason or other, liable to the ill-will of bands of persons, "who are leagued together for the violation of the law. There are also several cases of “ appearing in arms,” in none of which are the parties amenable. These parties go through the country almost undisguised; it therefore is impossible that they should not be known, and the only thing to be regretted is that, in some way or other, these parties have not been made amenable. There are also, gentlemen, some 45 cases of threatening letters. As we find in the other cases, very few of the offenders have been made amenable. I hope and trust there is not any want, gentlemen, of sufficient exertion, upon the part of the constabulary, in the detection of crime. I know that where the state of the country is such, very few people are willing to come forward, or assist in any way in the administration of the law, and that there are great difficulties in dis¬ covering the offenders. Still I hope that, as upon a former occasion, active exertions, and great ingenuity, were used by the constabulary in the discovery of the writer of a threaten¬ ing letter, the same exertions will be made now. I tried the case, and the constable was deserving of great praise for the manner in which he acted. I only hope and trust, gentlemen, that similar exertions will be made for the purpose of discovering the writers of several of these threatening letters. I understand from some of the officers of police that some of the letters written in particular districts have been written by the same person. I hope and trust that a sufficient number of well-disposed persons in those districts will use every exertion to procure the genuine writing of the parties suspected. Gentlemen, of course it does not necessarily follow that the party so supposed to be guilty will turn out to be the writer of these threatening letters, or guilty of the offences laid to their charge ; but, certainly every exertion should be used and every precaution taken to discover the persons who have been guilty of the commission of so serious an offence as that of writing a threatening letter. In addition to the culpability of the offence, the circumstance of so many offenders not having been discovered, it is to be regretted that this fact encourages so many people with the notion—a false notion, I hope—that they may commit crime with impunity. I have had many years’ experience, in the discharge of my duty, of such cases as these ; the result of which experience is, that although for a time, and in some instances, the unfortunate people escape justice, they will be over¬ taken ultimately by justice ; and I have, indeed, found very few instances in which per¬ sons, at one time or another, have not been ultimately discovered, and then, when it is too late, they find the total uselessness and want of purpose in the offence which they have committed, and the crime in which they have been engaged. I do not feel, gentlemen, that it is in my power to say more; and I am precluded from entering more at large into the subject, and suggesting any means that may occur to me, to rectify the state of things; but I find persons who are more competent than I am who are investigating the matter, and who will come to some conclusion; but I hope that it will result in rendering this county, or some portion of the neighbouring county, that which in earlier times I recollect it to have been. I do not anticipate that you, gentlemen, will have any difficulty in dis¬ charging your duty, so far as finding the bills is concerned. Unfortunately it is the absence of bills, or the absence of evidence to bring home to the guilty party the crimes which they have committed, that has reduced your county to the state in which it is at present. If in the course of the investigation anything may occur to you, gentlemen, I shall be happy to give you any assistance in my power; at present all I shall say is, that you participate with me in the sincere regret that I feel at the state of your county, and the f eeling of shame that it should be reduced to such a condition. Memorandum by Mr. Seed, Crown Solicitor. The following is a correct revelation, taken from authentic sources, of the Ribbon system as it exists in Ireland. There are few even in this country who can form any adequate notion of the system, and yet its meetings are held in many parts of the United Kingdom, especially in those large towns to which Irish resort. There are five distinct orders in the society, 1st. The County Delegates ; 2nd, The Parish Masters; 3rd. The Body Masters; 4 th. the Committee Men; 5 th. the mere Rib- bonman. These closely resemble the military grades of colonel, captain, subaltern, serjeant, and private. The County Delegate is elected by a majority of the parish masters connected with the county. The delegates meet quarterly, and their meetings are principally held in the large manufacturing towns, such as Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, &c. At those meetings the passwords and signs (in the parlance of the society called “ Goods,”), for the ensuing quarter are agreed on, and it is the duty of each delegate to disseminate them in his own district without delay; at those meetings,also, the place at which the)" are next to meet is always decided on. All such meetings are held in some public-house which has a private room. They gradually assemble, so as to attract no attention. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 163 attention, and, when assembled, they appoint five or six of their own body to act as tyiers, whose office it is to bring in such drink as they may order, pending their deliberations, and to exclude all who are not in full possession of the signs and passwords. Having elected a chairman, their own wrongs and grievances, or those of their neigh¬ bours, are discussed; obnoxious landlord, agent, or bailiff, is placed on his trial, and, is pronounced guilty, sentenced by a majority of votes to such punishment involving death, or the destruction of property, as the case may seem to them to merit; and, when the doomed man is pronounced unfit to live, or to undergo a minor punishment, it is the duty of the delegates of the district in which he resides, to have that sentence carried into effect before the next quarterly meeting, and woe befall him if his mission be not per¬ formed. But although responsible for the sentence being carried into full effect, the means of doing so are supplied by another and (generally) distant district, so that, being strangers, if those who commit the murder or outrage escape immediate apprehension, there is little hope of their being identified. The deed of blood is usually done in implicit obedience to command ; but if the party commanded should demur, it is done by lot. If he escapes immediate detection, money is collected, and he is sent out of the country ; if detected, he is supplied with means for his defence. At his trial, witnesses are also provided for him. The delegate necessarily incurs expense by attending the quarterly meetings. He is thus reimbursed ; it is his duty to have some fit man to act as master in each parish; these are parish masters,” the second order. On his return from the quarterly meeting, he calls a meeting of his parish masters at some fair or market, the signs and passwords agreed on at the meeting of delegates are communicated, and for them each parish master pays him the sum of 5 s. ; this compen¬ sates him for his outlay, and even gives him a profit. The parish master requires to be reimbursed. He is bound to have within his parish a certain number at his command ; they are called body masters, and form the third order. To each of them he gives the “ goods,” and from each he receives in return the sum of 1 s. The body master has his duty to discharge, and has to select some twenty or thirty choice lads upon whom reliance can be placed. They are called committee-men, and form the fourth order. To them the “ goods ” are communicated, for which they pay the body master the sum of 6 d. To the committee-men is entrusted, almost invariably, the execution of the sentence passed by the delegates. The fifth grade is that of the ordinary Ribbonman, who, if he distinguishes himself by acts of outrage, waylaying, malicious injury to property, &c., is considered worthy of promotion. The delegates, parish masters, and body masters, are the only persons who have authority to make a member, which is done by administering an oath, and this is always done in some retired place, such as the back of a ditch, no one ever being present except the person who administers the oath, and he who takes it, so that if information was given there could be no corroboration of the testimony. The signs and passwords now only remain to be noticed. They are contrived with great ingenuity, the latter being an allusion to some ordinary passing event, and of so simple a character as not to awaken suspicion. There are three classes of passwords, which may be called the casual, the quarrelling, and the night words. The following were lately in use:— Casual.— Q. What do you think of the times? A. We are expecting a change.—Q. Of what kind ? A . Of the present Ministry. „ Quarrelling.—Don’t be contentious. Sir?— A. Not with you. N’ght.—The clouds are heavy. A. A storm is at hand. Signs.—The right hand rubbing the back of the head, the left thumb being in the left waistcoat pocket. S. Seed, Sarahville, Crown Solicitor. Killiney, 2 March 1871. Y 3 A ppendix, No, 4. The signs and pass¬ words are generally changed every quarter. 0.50. 164 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 5. PAPERS handed in by the Chairman. Appendix, No. 5. KING’S COUNTY. RETURN of Agrarian Outrages from 1st January 1870 to 28 February 1871. Y.B.—Those marked thus (*) have a Precis of the case herewith. No. Injured Persons. Nature of Offence. Proceedings, if any. January 1870. 1 Margaret McBride Threatening notice - - nil. 2 Toler R. Garvey - - - - ditto. . 3 John Byrne - - Intimidation - Three men arrested and 4 Margaret Maher - . Threatening letter discharged. - - nil. 5 Michael Moran . Intimidation. 6 Andrew Hoolan - . Threatening letter. 7 Michael Kehny • - - ditto. 8 Edward Cunningham - - - ditto. February 1870. 9 E. Cunningham . Threatening letter - - nil. 10 Margaret Donagher - Arson. 11 John Byrne - - Threatening letter. March 1870. 12 B. Beresford, Esq. • Threatening letter - nil. 13 Andrew Connolly - - - - ditto ... - - ditto. 14 Thomas Mullock - - - - ditto. 15 Terence Coyne • - - ditto. 16 Patrick Clavin - Intimidation. 17 T. Kelly, Esq. - Threatening letter. April 1870. 18 Patrick Clavin - Threatening letter. 19 A. Connolly, Esq. - - - ditto. 20 A. W. Costelloe - - - ditto. 21 George Dixon - - - ditto. 22 Janies Lowe - - - - ditto. 23 Thomas Pretty, and -1 24 Timothy Lawler - -/ - - ditto. 25 M innock Thomas - - - ditto. May 1870. 26 Cornelius Fox - Intimidation. 27 James Larkin - - - same. June 1870. Nil. • / ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 165 Kino’s County.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871— continued. No. Injured Persons. Nature of Offence. Proceedings, if any. 28 | July 1870. Thomas Winnock - Threatening letter - - nil. 29 August 1870 : Laurence Cantwell Threatening letter - - nil. 30 Terence Flanagan - Intimidation ... - - nil. 31 September 1870. Nil. October 1870. Cornelius Fox - - (*) R. Hunt - Attempt murder - . See Precis. 33 Threatening letter - - nil. 33 November 1870. Thomas Elcote - Threatening letter. 34 Same ----- - - ditto. 35 December 1870. G. Rowe .... Threatening letter. 36 January 1871. Stephen Stackpoole Threatening letter. 37 Thomas Maher - - ditto. 38 J. Robbins - - - ditto. 39 Michael and Mrs. Moran (#) Attempt murder See Precis. 40 February 1871. Terence Flanagan - - - Threatening letter. 41 Simon Lynch ... - - ditto. 43 G. Rowe - - - - - ditto. Appendix, No. 5. Precis of Cases referred to. Attempt to Murder Michael Moran. —King’s County, 15 January 1871. CSee Printed Return of Outrages for January 1871, page 2.) Michael Moran, and his wife, Eliza Moran, when proceeding to prayers on an out¬ side car, were fired at on the public road leading to the Chapel of Tubber, about 10.50 a.m., when Eliza Moran received injuries, from the effects of which her life is in danger. She was only married in June last, and is near her confinement. They had driven about a quarter of a mile, and when ascending a slight hill, Moran saw the heads of three men looking over the ditch of a field on the right side of the road. One of them wore some¬ thing like a mask. He had passed the place about 20 yards, when three shots were fired; he was uninjured; looking back he saw one of the men, who was armed with a gun, attempting to reload. His wife then exclaimed she was wounded, and turning round he perceived her lying back on the car. When he looked towards the men again, he saw them running away towards the marsh or bog. Moran turned the car and drove home. His wife had received 11 gunshot wounds in the head and face—10 with slugs and large shot, the other Avith a bullet, which grazed her head and passed off. Moran cannot give a description of his assailants. His Avife has ever since been too uncon¬ scious to be examined. Mary King, a servant of Moran, was seen by him in advance on the road. She states she saw three men, but can gh r e no description. She made no signal to warn her master, Avho suspects that she aided in some degree the persons Avho planned the outrage. She is very intimate with a man named Rabbit, who is in custody. Pieces of neAvspaper Avere found on the road, which had been used as wadding, and tracks Avere discovered in the direction the assailants had taken. These Avere followed a considerable distance, but the men had passed out of A’ieAA r . The police could get no in- 0.50. y 4 formation, 166 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix No, 5. King’s County.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871 — continued. formation, although the outrage was committed in a rather populous district; there were two houses within 100 yards of the scene. The inmates of these houses have been examined without any satisfactory result. A man named William Daly, cousin to Moran, had accompanied Mary King as far as one of these houses, into which he turned; he states he heard Moran’s car passing, heard three shots, and saw three men running away, but can give no description. Three other men were seen by Moran about 500 yards from the place; they state they heard the shots, but saw no persons. The con¬ stabulary afterwards ascertained that several persons had observed the three offenders running away, when about a mile and a half from the place. No satisfactory evidence has been obtained from these persons. One of them, named John Dargan, first stated the offenders were 300 yards distant from him. He afterwards admitted he had actually spoken to them, but would give no clue to their identity. Moran teas in possession of a farm of seven acres, which his father purchased from a man named Kelly, about 20 years ago. Kelly returned from America, and wanted to get back the land. Moran refused. Kelly went to live with people named Rabbit, and after some time again went to America. A threatening notice about this farm was received by Moran in November 1869. He was visited by an armed party, and further threatened in January 1870. Bernard, Patrick, and Timothy Rabbit, and James M‘Donald are now under arrest on suspicion. From dread of the Ribbon Society in this district, no evidence can be obtained at present. Shooting at and Wounding Cornelius Fox. —King’s County, 30 October 1870. (See Printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 14.) Con Fox, farmer, when going to chapel at Clara at 7.30 a.m., was met on the road by two men, who ordered him to go down on his knees, and, on his refusing, one of them fired at him with a revolver, lodging a ball in his chest. Fox caught hold of his assailant, and had a struggle with him, during which he received four additional wounds on the head, inflicted with the end of the pistol. The two offenders then walked quietly away, in sight of about 15 men who were digging potatoes in an adjoining field, and who took no notice of Fox’s cries for help. Fox does not know the men, but says he could identify them. There has been an unfriendly feeling between a family named Fonohoe and Fox, as a Mrs. Donohoe icas evicted, about 20 years ago, from the farm which Fox now holds. As yet the offenders have not been discovered. COUNTY OF MEATH. RETURN of Agrarian Outrages from 1st January 1870 to 28th February 1871. N.B .—Those marked thus (*) have a Precis of the case herewith. No. Injured Persons. Nature of Offence. Proceedings, if any. J January 1870. Henry Doughtv - Threatening letter One man arrested and 2 James Meehan - - same bailed to stand his trial 1 at next assizes. - nil. 71 Hugh Hanbury - - same • • • nil. 4 Patrick Neville • - - same _ • • - nil. 5 Patrick Connolly - - - same - - • - * - nil. 6 Thomas Bodker - - same • • - nil. 7 Richard Kennedy - - - same • • - nil. 8 Walter Goodwill - - - same - • - - nil. 9 Thomas Burn - - same • • . nil. 10 Patrick Tallon m - • same _ • . . nil. 11 James Dyas - « - - same • * - nil. 12 Bernard Dillon - - same - - • *. nil. 13 James Daly - • Intimidation - • - - - nil. 14 A. J. Walker • Threatening letter • - • nil. 15 Richard John Pigot “ - - same - - - • nil. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 167 Meath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from I Jan, 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871 — continued. Appendix, No. 5. No. Injured Persons. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 February 1870. James Gray - Patrick M‘Cormack and others Owen Cooke John Rice - Bryan King - John Smart - Edward Gorman - - - Terance and - - -) Edward O’Brien -J Henry Atkinson - Marquess of Headford - Bryan Callaghan - A. Browne - Hugh Corcoran Joseph Lewis Andrew Tiernan - Patrick Balfe Patrick Balfe H. Leighburne March 1870. James Purst - Richard Despard, Esq. - Andrew Gray Denis O’Connor - Hugh Bropley Employers of labourers - Garrett Gill - Timothy Leich Patrick McCann - Mrs. and Miss Magan - Edward Dunne, and Graziers in general Mrs. and Miss Magan - Thomas Elders Thomas Rich Patrick Fegan Patrick Fegan William Reilly William Reilly William Reilly Charles Welby John Halpin - Richard McKeown Patrick Gavin Joseph Laurie and Sons Henry Farrclly Thomas Bradley * Adam Cochrane John Halpin Richard Pigott George Crawford - Michael Halpin James Priest - John Ryan - William Woods April 1870. William Bond, Esq., and Terance Sheridan - Andrew May Lawrence McGlew John Radcliffe, Esq., j.p. Nature of Offence. Proceedings, if any. Threatening letter - - • nil. Intimidation - - - - nil. Threatening letter • - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. same - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same - - - nil. Intimidation by threats - - - nil. Threatening letter - - - - nil. - - same - - - • - nil. Intimidation - - - - nil. Threatening letter - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. Administering illegal oath - One man ai under rema Threatening letter - - - nil. - - same - • . • nil. Intimidation . • - . nil. Threatening letter — " • “ nil. Threatening letter . nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same One man ar bailed for animation. - - same - . - - - nil. - - same - - • - nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. Threatening notice - - - - nil. - - same - - - - nil. - - same - *• - - nil. - - same • - - - nil. - - same - • - - nil. Intimidation • - - _ nil. Administering illeg al oath - - nil. and Intimidation Levying money - Firing into dwellings - Threatening letter Intimidation Threatening letter Intimidation Threatening letters Intimidation Administering illegal oath Intimidation Levying money - Threatening letter Firing into dwelling - Threatening letter - - same - - same - - same Intimidation, and Threatening letter. Same. Intimidation. Attempt to murder -1 Two men arrested; dis¬ charged ; want of identification. nit. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. Two men arrested, and committed, and sen¬ tenced. 0.50. Z 168 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No.5. Meath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Fob. 1871 -^-continued. o ~ No. Injured Persons. Nature of Offence. Proceedings, if any. May 1870. 75 Daniel Spring - Intimidated by an armed One man arrested and man. discharged. 76 Christopher Connolly Threatening notice. 77 Thomas Fagan and Luke Fagan Intimidation by firing a shot 78 Same ----- Administering an illegal oath. One man arrested, but 79 Same ----- Levying money. discharged for want of evidence. June 1870. 80 Hugh Hanbury - - - Threatening letter. July 1870. Nil. nil - - - nil. August 1870. Nil. ■= - nil. September 1870. 81 Hugh Hanbury - Threatening letter. October 1870. Nil. - - nil. November 1870. 82 William Farrell Threatening leiter - - nil. December 1870. Nil. nil. January 1871. Nil. nil. February 1871. 83 Thomas Kiernan - - - Appearing armed and ad- Four men arrested and ministering unlawful oath. discharged. Precis of Cases Referred to. Attempt to Murder George Crawford .—County of Meath, 27 March 1870. {See Return of Outrages for 1870, page 15.) George Crawford, farmer, and agent to A. R. Maguire, Esq., was fired at on this night through a window, while sitting at his kitchen fire. He will lose the sight of his right eye, and his right cheek is severely lacerated. Revenge for the eviction of a tenant from Mr. Maguire’s property in December 1868, when the father of* the injured man was agent. One man was arrested on suspicion, but, after successive remands, was finally discharged. Mr. Crawford was awarded 300/. by the grand jury as compensation for the injuries received. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 169 Meath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871 — continued. Appendix, No. 5. Attempt to Murder John Radcliffe, Esq., j.p. — County of Meatli, 23 April 1870. (See Return of Outrages for 1870, page 15.) John Radcliffe, Esq., j.p., was fired at between one and two o’clock, pun., as he was returning to his residence, Wilmount, from Kells. His horse was stopped by two men, one of whom discharged a pistol at him, without effect. Both -were arrested, and fully identified by Mr. Radcliffe. They were tried at the Special Commission in June, and sentenced as follows:—Edward Gerty, penal servitude for life; John Brady, for 10 years. James Gerty , brother to one of the prisoners had been committed to gaol a short time previously by Mr. Radcliffe, for having a sheepskin for which he could not account. COUNTY OF WESTMEATH. RETURN of Agrarian Outrages from 1st January 1870 to 28th February 1871. N.B. —Those marked thus (a) have a precis of the case made out, which can be furnished if necessary. Those marked thus ( # ) have a precis of the case herewith. No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 Injured Persons. January 1870. Edward Goodall - Same - Patrick McNamara Owen Colgan Patrick Murray - Thomas Robinson - John Doran - - - Mr. Seery - Same - Wm. Ferguson Ross Mahon, Esq. James Austin Garratt Fagan and another Thomas Fitzpatrick Philip Coyle February 1870. Thomas Nash Bryan Farrell Mary Seery - John Ogle - M. G. Russell R. Ball John Keeffe - Geo. Gaynor Sir R. Levinge and others W. Casey - Michael "Kerrigan - Lawrence Hafford - Edward Dargan - Timothy Seery A. Sutton - W. Bell Edward Morton Joseph Lynch March 1870. John Fox - Edward Morton Brvan Farrell (a) {a) (a) (a a 0 (a) (a) (a) (a) («) (a) (*) (*) (*) (*) Nature of Offence. Threatening letter Intimidation - Administering illegal oaths - Threatening letter - - same - - - same - Intimidation - - - same - Threatening letter - - same ... - same - - - same - Intimidation and firing shots same - - - - - same - Intimidation Threatening letter Threatening letter Intimidation Threatening notice Intimidation - - ditto Threatening notice - same - - ditto Murder Intimidation - - ditto Threatening letter - - ditto - - ditto Attempted murder - - ditto Attempted murder Threatening letter - - ditto Proceedings, if any. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. nil. - - nil, - - nil. - - nil. One man arrested. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. One man arrested. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. - - nil. Two men arrested and discharged. - - nil. - - nil. 0.50. z 2 170 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 5. Westmeath.—Rlturn of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871 — continued . No. Injured Persons. Nature of Offence. Proceedings, if any\ , March 1870— continued. 37 The Public - - - Threatening letter nil. 38 Tenants of the Rev. W. Cook - - ditto - nil. 39 Stephen Woods - - Arson - - • • nil. 40 Peter Murray - - Intimidation - - - nil. 41 Danl. Bryan - - - Threatening letter - • - nil. 42 O. Colgan - - Intimidation . • nil. 43 Thomas Parker - - - - ditto • • • nil. 44 R. M. Jemison, Esq. - - - - ditto - - . nil. 45 Michael Moran - - Threatening letter Intimidation - - • nil. 46 Patrick Buckley - - - - - - nil. 47 P. J. Boland - - - - ditto - - - nil. 48 '1 he Public - - - Threatening notice - - • nil. 49 S. Doran - - Intimidation - • • nii. 50 Mrs. M. Martin - - Threatening letter - - - nil. 51 Rev. Jas. Crofton - - (*) Firing at - . See Precis. 52 C. Stammell, Esq. - - Threatening letter . - - nil. 53 The Public - - - - - ditto - . _ nil. 54 Thomas Loughry - - - Intimidation - - . nil. 55 Chs. Cunningham - - - Administering illegal oath • . - nil. 56 P. Creighton - - Intimidation - • nil. 57 Same - - - Malicious injury • - - nil. 58 Peter McNamara - - ’ Intimidation - - - nil. April 1870. 59 Andrew Dunne, and -1 Threatening notices - nil. 60 Matthew Gaffney - - "J - - “ 61 Owen Colgan - (a) Threatening letter . • - nil. 62 Sir Percy Nugent - - - Arson ... - • • nil. 63 Michael Sheridan - - - Threatening letter • - - nil. 64 E. Dope, Esq. - - Intimidation - - . nil. 65 John Martin - -1 66 Thomas Brachen - - . { Threatening notices - - nil. 67 Patrick Molloy - -i 68 Michael Brennan - - Intimidation - m nil. 69 The Public - - - Threatening notice • nil. 70 Peter Murray - - - ditto - - - nil. May 1870. 71 John Egan - - - Threatening letter. 72 James Keilly - - Threatening notice. 73 Thomas Parker - - Threatening letter. 74 Joseph Molly - - - - ditto. June 1870. 75 Joseph Vaughan - • - Threatening letter • nil. 76 Same - • - - - same. 77 78 Thomas Molloy, and Peter Murray - -1 -J Intimidation by firing shots Two men arrested and discharged. July 1870. 79 Thomas Connor • • Threatening letter nil 80 Patrick Baker - - - - same. August 1870. 81 Thomas Kelly • • Intimidation. 1 «. 83 James Reilly - - Killing cattle. September 1870. 83 S. Connor - - Intimidation • One man arrested. 84 John Johnston • C) Shooting at - See Precis. October 1870. 85 Lawrence Keeffe • Intimidation. • ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 171 Westmeath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871— continued. No. j Injured Persons. November 1870. 86 87 88 89 James Smith - Thomas Plunkett - Patrick Plunkett - Stephen Connor 90 (Thomas Hackett, and - (John Carroll 91 Francis Dowling Proceedings, if any, Threatening letter. - - ditto. Intimidation. - - ditto ' - Two men arrested; one returned for trial. -} (*; ditto Murder Four arrested ; one com¬ mitted for trial for be¬ ing of an armed party who fired on police; two sentenced to three months’imprisonment; one discharged. See Precis. December 1870. 92 Thomas Waters 93 64 95 96 97 98 S. H. Somers John Geoghegan Michael Looran Same Peter Ryan - James Corcoran 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 January 1871. Mary Ryland Thomas Bracken - S. Somers Michael Kelly James Daly - John Kelly - James Blagriff February 1871. J. Blagriff - J. Geogheghan M. Looran N. Looran James Fay - James Daly - Mary Fay Patrick Daly Michael Gorman - Geo. Belton - Murder Threatening letter - - ditto. - - ditto. - - ditto. - - - ditto. - - ditto. Threatening letter. - - ditto. - - ditto. - - ditto. - - ditto. - - ditto. Attempt murder Threatening letter - - ditto. - - ditto. - - ditto. > - ditto - - ditto - - ditto Intimidation. - - ditto. - - ditto. Three men arrested and discharged. - - nil. See Precis. One man arrested. One man arrested. z 3 Appendix, No. 5. 0.50. PjiEC S 172 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 5. Westmeath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871 — continued. Precis of Cases referred to. Murder of Michael Kerrigan .—County of Westmeath, 22 February 1870. (Death 24th.) (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 7.) Michael Kerrigan, farmer, died from the effects of a gunshot wound, inflicted by some person unknown, who fired into his dwelling at night. He had taken Jive acres °f land from a man named Austin, who afterwards repented the agreement, and the latter having attempted to resume forcible possession (in doing which he assaulted Kerrigan), was summoned to Petty Sessions, ft icas there decreed that Kerrigan should have the land. He shortly afterwards received a letter threatening him with death. Austin was arrested, but upon investigation, no sufficient evidence could be produced to warrant his detention. He was therefore discharged. Shooting at Edward Morton .—County of Westmeath, 20 February 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 15.) Edward Morton, land steward, was fired at through a hole in a high wall, when proceeding to church at Clara (King’s County). He was not injured, and continued on his way. Morton soon after received a threatening letter, stating that the hammer was oiling for him, and ordering him to leave the place, on pain of death. He had assisted upon one occasion in seizing some goods for rent due by a blacksmith, whose wife at the time made use of some threatening expressions ; and upon another occasion he had turned away a labouring man. Shooting at and Wounding Joseph Lynch .—County of Westmeath, 26 February 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 15.) Joseph Lynch, servant, when returning at night from Mullingar, was met by a man who ordered him to go down on his knees, and, on his refusing, called five others who were near at hand. Two of these advanced, and one fired a shot, lodging a bullet in Lynch’s thigh; the other struck him on the head with a stick. Lynch was also kicked and seriously assaulted. The only motive assigned for this outrage is, that Lynch is a servant of J. Hachett, ivho has lately taken a mill in the neighbourhood, and has thereby injured the business of other parties in the same trade. Such was the view taken of the case at the time. At a later period of the year, the constabulary had reason to believe that Lynch’s assailants mistook him for another person who was supposed to have been an informer. Lynch remained a short time in the County Infirmary, and was discharged in good health. Shooting at John Fox .—County of Westmeath, 27 March 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 15.) John Fox, farmer, when driving home his cattle, saw a stranger advancing towards him; suspecting the man’s purpose. Fox produced a pistol, and told him not to'come nearer. The stranger also took out a pistol, and, saying he was not going to injure Fox, desired him to give up 12 acres of land held by Fox, from which a man had been evicted for non-payment of rent three or four years ago, and who now wants to get this farm back. Fox said he would not surrender it; and both having turned to walk away, the unknown man fired at Fox, but did not hit him. Fox pursued him some distance. Two persons were arrested, but, not being identified, were discharged. Fox gave up the land on the 19th March, and it remains still unlet. ON WESTMEATIL, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 173 Westmeath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages, from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871 — continued . Appendix, No. 5. Shooting at and Wounding Rev. James Crofton. —County of Westmeath, 22 March 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 15.) Rev. James Crofton, Protestant rector of Dunleer, when returning, at about 8 o’clock p m., to Tyrrellspass from Clonfad, where he had been walking over his pro¬ perty, was met by two men, one of whom, after they had passed, fired at him with a pistol, the bullet inflicting a very slight wound on his shoulder. On Mr. Crofton turning round and demanding the reason of this outrage, both men fired at him. He then walked quickly away, and had gone but a short distance when one of the two again fired at him. Mr. Crofton followed, but could not overtake him, and on turning back was fired at by the second man from a ditch. None of the last four shots inflicted any injury. Mr. Crofton had on the previous day informed his tenants that he intended increasing their rents, and that he would evict them if they did not pay the increase. Two persons were arrested, but. were discharged. Only one tenant was actually served with notice to quit. Shooting at John Johnston. —County of Westmeath, 4 September 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 16.) John Johnston, land steward, was fired at twice between the hours of two and three p.m., when returning from church, accompanied by his family. He was not injured. It was believed that the object of the outrage was simply to intimidate Johnston, ivho had manifested strictness toivurcls the labourers under his charge. Murder of Francis Dowling. —County of Westmeath, 25 November 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 8.) Francis Dowling, an army pensioner, steward to Messrs. Perry, of Ballinagore Mills, when returning from his office in the evening, and about entering the gatehouse, where he resided, was fired at and shot dead by some person unknown, who, from the impression made by his knee when taking aim, appears to have been concealed about two or three yards on Dowling’s right. Four pellets struck Dowling. Deceased was an inoffensive man, and generally liked. About two years ago a man was dismissed from Messrs. Perry's employment. He was succeeded by Dowling. Revenge for this is the only motive assigned for the crime. Messrs. Perry have been three times noticed by threatening letters to discharge four persons, of whom Dowling was one, and about six months ago were informed that a man was told off to shoot Dowling. Two men were arrested (one of whom was the party dismissed), but both were discharged for want of evidence. Murder of Thomas Waters. —County of Westmeath, 29 December 1870. (See printed Return of Outrages for 1870, page 8.) Thomas Waters, process-server, was found by a police patrol one mile from Mullin¬ gar, at 11 o’clock p.m., shot dead; his body.'still warm. There were three bullet wounds in his left breast. 7 he Rev. Air. Crofton, of Louth, about a month ago resolved upon evict¬ ing a notorious Ribbon leader, who had refused to pay an increased rent, but so great ivas the dread of this man that no one could be found to serve the ejectment notice. Waters at last undertook the task. His death deprives the landlord of proof that the notice was served, and the tenant in question will in consequence retain his farm six months longer. It is believed that this crime was resolved on and carried out under the directions of the Ribbon conspiracy. The police repeatedly warned deceased of the danger of associating with known members of that society, and frequently escorted him (contrary to his wish) jDart of the way home. Three persons, all notorious Ribbonmen, have been arrested ; one of the three was seen drinking with Waters during the entire day of the murder. z 4 0.50. 174 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix, No. 5. Westmeath.—Return of Agrarian Outrages, from 1 Jan. 1870 to 28 Feb. 1871— continued. Attempt to Murder James Blagriff .—County of Westmeath, 23 January 1871. (See printed Return of Outrages for January 1871, page 2.) Mr. James Blagriff, farmer, was proceeding, about 4.30 a.m., on a car to the fair of Athlone, accompanied by his nephew, Thomas Mills, and had just got on the public road when he was fired at from behind a ditch. Blagriff called out to Mills to jump up and drive on, Avhen a man leaped across the ditch into the field they had left, and fired a second shot from a pistol. The horse, frightened by the shots, galloped off, and the would-be assassin pursued the car along the field by the roadside, firing a third shot. None of the shots took effect, but Blagriff states the plug or bullet from the last whistled close by his head. He also asserts that, from the starlight and the view he got of the man from the flash of the second shot, to the best of his belief, it was Robert Black, jun., who fired it. His father , Robert Black, senior, owes two and a half years rent for a house and garden to Blagriff, ivho served him with a process. Black begged time till a fair, held on 20 th instant, but had not paid the amount at the time of the outrage. Black was ejected eight or nine years ago for non-payment of rent of land which Blagriff noio holds. Robert Black, junior, arrested and remanded. C. 24,245. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). 175 Appendix, No. 6. PAPER handed in by the Chairman. COUNTY INSPECTORS REPORTS LAID BEFORE JUDGE OF ASSIZE. A A 0.50. 176 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE County Inspector’s Reports laid before Judge of Assize: County of Westmeath : page Return of all Offences committed in the above County since Summer Assizes 1869 to Spring AssizeB 1870, so far as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary - - - - - - - -177 Return of all Offences committed in the above County since Summer Assizes 1870, so far as the same have been Reported to the Con¬ stabulary ----------- 186 Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the last Spring Assizes, so far as the same have been Reported to the Con¬ stabulary - - - - - - - - - - -192 King’s County : Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the last Assizes, so far as the same have been reported to the Constabulary, dated 8 July 1870 - - - - - - - - - -198 Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the last Assizes, so far as the same have been reported to the Constabulary, dated 1 March 1871 - - - - - - - - - 204 COUNTY INSPECTOR’S REPORT laid before Judge of Assize. 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Number of Injured Cases Persons who NATURE OF OFFENCE. Offences In which In which in which the Since last of a previous Date Persons Persons Offenders declined to for which Arrests were were Named were not Named. were Lodge Assizes. made within the Period of or unknown. Informations this Return. Charged. at all. (Homicide ------- 1 1 Firing at the Person ----- 3 - - 3 3 Conspiracy to Murder ----- - - - - Administering Poison ----- - - - - - — Rape, and Felonious Assault on Females - - - — — — OFFENCES AGAINST Infanticide, and Concealing Birth - - - — — — THE PERSON Abduction ------- - - - - — — Assault on Police, Bailiffs, &c. - - - 3 - 1 — - 1 Serious Assaults ------ 11 - 6 - 3 3 Desertion of Children' ----- - - - - — — Unnatural Crime ------ - - - - — — l Bigamy. “ — — f Arson and Incendiary Fire - 6 1 5 5 - Burglary and Housebreaking - - - 1 - 1 — — — Highway and other Robberies - 2 - 2 - - — OFFENCES AGAINST Taking and holding Forcible Possession - - - - - PROPERTY Cattle and Sheep Stealing - 1 — — 1 1 Killing, Cutting, or Maiming Cattle 2 - - 2 2 _ Sacrilege ------- 2 - - - 2 2 Levying Contributions - - - - — — - _ Piracy ------- “ *** " f Demand or Robbery of Arms - - - 6 _ 4 6 2 Appearing Armed ----- 13 - 5 4 7 4 Faction Fights ------ - - - - Riots and Affrays ----- - - - - - - Administering Oaths Unlawfully - - - Threatening Notices or Letters, and Intirai- 2 1 2 1 dation ------- 93 1 10 92 82 OFFENCES AFFECTING THE PUBLIC PEACE Pound Breach ------ Turning up Land - - - - - Attacking Houses ----- 11 - - 3 t-J © 1 1 6 Resistance to Legal Process - — - - - - - Illegal Meetings or Processions - - - - - - - - - Levelling ------- 1 - - 1 1 - Injury to Property, Plucking Sheep, &c. 6 - - 2 6 7 Firing into Dwellings ----- 8 - - 2 8 8 Injury to Places of Worship - - - - - - - - - .Party Demonstrations ----- " — 1 Combination ------ Prison Breaking, and Aiding Escape of Pi'i- - - - - - - OTHER OFFENCES 1 soners ------- Injuring or attempting to Injure a Railway Train 1 * __ _ 1 1 Ribbonism ------- — — - - — - _ Coining ------- - - - - - - Totals - - - 173 - 17 39 149 117 MINOR OFFENCES NOT Summary Convictions -------------- Cases sent to Trial --------------- Cases Dismissed - -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Cases in which no Proceedings have been taken before Magistrates ------ Totals Mullingar, 23 February 1870, ON WESTMEATH, &C. '^UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS), 185 since Summer Assizes 1869 to Spring Assizes 1870, &c.— continued. S U M M A R Y. Number of Persons Arrested within the Period of this Return. Number of Accused or Suspected Persons. Number of Persons Arrested by the Number of Cases in which Trial was Postponed at Quarter or Petty Sessions. Number of Number of Persons for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences within this Period. For Offences of Convicted at Convicted Discharged for want Constabulary, within the Period of this Return, for Offences Cases for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences Committed For Offences Without Sworn Information. Upon Sworn Information. a former Period. Quarter Sessions. Summarily. of sufficient Evidence. Acquitted. Committed in England, Wales, and Scotland. within the Period of this Return. of a former Period. 1 1 1 - - - - 1 - - - - - - - - — - - - ' - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - — — — — — — — — — — — — ’ — 4 — _ — 2 — - — 1 - — — 20 - - - 1 12 3 - - 2 4 - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ — " 1 _ _ 1 1 _ 1 - — — — — - - - 1 1 2 - - 1 - - - - - 1 1 - - - - — - - — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - “ — " 21 - - - - 15 - - - 3 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — — — — — — — 1 — — — — — _ — — 1 1 — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 - - - - 4 - - - - — — - - - - - - - - — — - - - - - - - - - - — — - - - - - - - - - - — — - - - - - - - - - - — — - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - -- - — ~ • — - - - - - - - - - - - - — — - — — — — _ — — _ _ - - - - - - - - - - — — - — - — - - - - - - - - — — — — — — — — — - 56 - - 1 3 32 3 - 2 9 14 - SPECIALLY REPORTED. Common Assaults. Larcenies. Intoxication. 143 21 626 2 6 — 57 8 27 59 23 — 261 58 653 0.50, B B 2 F. J. 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Offences of a previous Date for which Arrests were made within the Period of In which In which in which the who Since last Assizes. Persons were Named or Persons were not Named. Offenders were Unknown. Declined to Lodge Informations this Return. Charged. at all. (Homicide - 3 2 1 1 Firing at the Person - - - 4 - 3 1 1 Conspiracy to Murder - - - - - - — _ Administering Poison - - - - ~ - — _ i Rape, and Felonious Assault on Females - - - — — _ OFFENCES AGAINST Infanticide, and Concealing Birth • 2 - - 1 2 1 THE PERSON. Abduction - - - — - - — _ Assault on Police, Bailiffs, &c. - - — - — — _ Serious Assaults - - - 6 - 2 3 2 1 Desertion of Children - - - - - - _ Unnatural Crime - - - — - — __ _ , Bigamy - - - *— — - ' Arson and Incendiary Fire - 4 4 3 Burglary and Housebreaking - - 2 - 1 — 2 1 Highway and other Robberies - - 3 - 3 — _ OFFENCES AGAINST PROPERTY. Taking and holding Forcible Possession Cattle and Sheep Stealing - Killing, Cutting, or Maiming Cattle - 2 5 - - 1 4 1 5 1 Sacrilege - - - - - - — _ Levying Contributions - - — - - — _ _ Piracy - * * “ - - f Demand or Robbery of Arms 3 3 3 Appearing Armed - - 6 - - 6 6 Faction Fights - - - — - - — Riots and Affrays - - — - - — _ Administering Oaths Unlawfully - - — - - — . Threatening Notices or Letters and Intimi- dation - - - - - 45 - 4 6 38 35 OFFENCES AFFECTING , THE PUBLIC PEACE. ' Pound Breach - - - Turning up Land Attacking Houses - - 1 - 1 - Resistance to Legal Process . • — — — _ Illegal Meetings or Processions - - — — — _ Levelling - - . — — — _ Injury to Property, Plucking Sheep, &c. - 1 - - 1 1 Firing into Dwellings - - - 2 - — 1 o 1 Injury to Places of Worship - - — - - — _ Party Demonstrations - * " — - - ' Combination - Prison Breaking, and Aiding Escape of Pri- soners - - - — — — . OTHER OFFENCES Injuring, or attempting to Injure a Railway Train - - - - - _ — _ . Ribbonism - • - _ _ _ _ Coining - - - - * - - - - - - - Totals - - - 89 16 32 67 40 ■ s. MINOR OFFENCES NOT Summary Convictions. Cases sent to Trial . Cases Dismissed - Cases in which no Proceedings have been taken befoie Magistrates Totals - - Mullingar, 27 February 1871 ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS) 191 Return of all Offences Committed in the County of Westmeath, since Summer Assizes, 1870 , kc.—continued. S U M M A R Y. Number of Persons Arrested within the Period of this Return. Number of Accused or Suspected Persons. Number of Persons Arrested by the Number of Cases in which Trial was Postponed at Quarter or Petty Sessions. Number of Number of Persons for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences within this Period. For Offences of Convicted at Convicted 1 1 Discharged for want I Constabulary, within the Period of this Return, for Offences Committed in England, Wales, and Scotland. Cases for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences Committed For Offences Without Sworn Information. Upon Sworn Information. a Former Period. Quarter Sessions. Summarily. of sufficient Evidence. Acquitted. - within the Period of this Return. of a Former Period. 6 6 4 - - - - 1 - - - 3 3 - - - - - - - - - - — - — - - - -• — - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — — _ — — _ - — — — — 5 1 - - 1 2 1 - - 2 2 - - — - - - - — - — - - - - - - - - - - - — - ' 1 1 __ . _ 1 — — — — — — — — 1 1 — 1 2 - - - - 1 - - 2 2 - - - — - - - - - - - - - 1 - - 1 — - - - - - — - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - — - - - - — - — ■“* — ~ _ _ - — - - - - - - ’ - — ... — — - - — - - - — - — - - - — — - - - — — - - - - - - - — — — — 5 5 - - 2 4 - - - 4 4 -- _ _ _ — — — — - — 4 — — — — — - - - 1 4 - - — — — - - - - - — — — — — — - - - - - - - — - — — — - — - - - - — — - — — — - — - - - - — — — - - - - - - - - — — — • — — — — — — — — — — — — — - — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — — — - 27 9 - 1 3 14 2 - — 13 16 SPECIALLY REPORTED. Common Assaults. Larcenies. Intoxication. 158 15 582 4 4 — 46 2 34 28 2 — . 236 23 616 C c F. J. 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C C 2 Return of all Offences committed in the County of Westmeath, since the last Spring Assizes, so far as the same may have been Reported to the Constabulary —continued 194 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Ed 02 < O o H ►J & 02 Ed « Ed a E-| Q < Ed"' O l"H El m a <-» o E-i Ed a a H (d H O Ed a Ed q z Ed a P5 Ed a H Ed q a 02 2 O *—< H S> os W co CP o CQ p P p CO w Ph d © © 4-J 3 TO 3 © 3 O Pi © TO © < a 3 a 3 TO 3 O © d £ TO © 3 a P 0 s 08 S3 to S3 XS O 08 ► © bo § a o 3 3 fcJD © d O c CJD © > o 5 o u 08 to <1 3 3d S3 to 5 3 "S3 >» 3 P © © .J d .ti Pi o ^ H c o 5 3 O X> 3 d .>» a 33 P 3 © O H a 3 2 b 4Te§ * - •§£ 3 £ •a ^ • r-t o 83 c.2 ■*-» ’S 8 a 2 8 0 B go © O 73 S -S © © ns > © o a a s * d o &Q i s K *m d ^ g -2 ® 8 3 —< © to *- .2 «2 -2 2 o CO 5 © © d © © O s s © © — 1 Pi to 0 3 3 © o © CO a a *- o o 3 3 o -o 3 P O Pi X) P © © i © rQ Q 3 ‘-P TO Sit © X Pi © 1 £ Pi 3 •P © i_* "3 § © P d © CO © p- s d to 68 CD CX O c cd Q H xs © © _CJ TO • , » +3 £ 3 « 0.0 •*» 2 C) ^P c O TO "3 a c a "* - a £ © a xs ©©*-•©© 00 p t? ^ ^ a p ^ 5 ^ ^ o 0 l ri © g 3 3 © © CO 3 O CO u © P d © © © Pi CO 3 CC © © X3 © > 3 3 © xs £ O rQ to *3 O X] o 3 £ o 3 3 3 CO O ti © © Pi d s • 3 3 3 3 5:10 3 3 3 3 © Pi Pi O s a •3 3 p 3 © o' © 3 © 3 C3 © 3 © © pJ 3 © 3 © H Pi 3 © 3 CT © u Ui CO CO © 1 d 3 03 p 3 I 3 to 3 3 3 3 3 .3 3 cO gE 3 u 0 » d a © T eS -*-J © a S5 o p* GO •d © © © P .2 3 &-■ 2 3 O & d d d d d d r3 © © © © © © © 13 .3 »—• © 13 3 *© .3 © Pi © © © © © © Ui Q P q P P P 04 © © © © S 3 s 3 O O O O £ © 3 o © 3 o 3 .2 3 a 3 © 3 3 *“3 CO I 3 • pi -4-* 3 s & 3 © © .a © p © 3 o c rs © .a *© © p © 3 o © 3 *© © P O d S ti 5 ° • 'gal § S o | g O fn c s»^8 £ in 6 TO © 4-S O 3 - © ^. 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(UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS) 195 00 © 2^ bC *3 it: g © g h* c3 3 SM © r* © bo O 3 -4-> ^ a £> *3 a ~ o •n ’-*5 © o 3- S3 o S3 © g 3 Ch © > © o H © o © © *h bp ^3 © © to M 3 >» © S3 O * a o Pu *d © N CM bX) *£ 3 r3 a © 3 tf © 33 +-» © S3 © 3 X S3 © © to ^ < © S3 o 3 O ,© 3 3 pm © c bo © r© 3 3 © © *«#-» © a o Z © bo 3 3 bi) .s o j=j 8 2 © ^3 O *3 ■ 5 CO to SM 3 © *Sb o © o H a © © 3 © 3 •rH > © 3 © .S '3 § fcO 5P co 3 n bo 3 **■4 P> 3 r3 3 to ^ 3 2 r O 3 2 - S ^ ® >i £ .2 3 tO 03 C2 £ § 8 i *3 ° gs © 2 gp ^ 3 <" •§ «*_ « ° o o ^ to 'g h> .2 3 ® 35 o H •© rQ o &« © © © © > o 3 o Z 3 3 > © tD 3 -3 © ^ g 3 o 3 F-Q ■> 4-> © 3 ?*-. o o • *8 -h 3 c 3 .2 £ 3-.0 © r3 o -3 © cTg. 0 > 3 *•3 jz o © o GO iH >> u> a to 3 *—i 3 3, ■ I z I 3 3 k-< 3 .Ss * a ^ i? s s 25 I z 2 >> © 3 C o O 3 r3 o ►3 1 i 1 • i 1 i • ■ • 1 o 1 a o •N 00 GO pH rH pH T3 *3 * 'd i < *d *3 33 33 © © © © © © *s P. © © © • © © *3 .3 a _3 _a 3 3 «3 Ph 3 ^3 3 3 _3 3 a a O *© 33 *© <) *© r—< r © *© <5 © P © P © p © p © p © p © p (M «5 © p © p © P © p O CO © p © p CD C-H 1 < i i IT i i , 1 i I 1 i , a • o 3 3 3 3 3 o © © JO i g i • | -4-4 • -4-> 3 3 3 © <2 © a S S © © g © © © © © © rH 3 © Z a o z 3 & 3 O Z O Z 3 o Z 3 O Z 3 ►H <2 ►H 3 O Z 3 O Z o z 3 o Z <2 S3 ►H 3 O Z 3 O z 3 *—* i ■ • • D ■ 3 1 1 ■ i 1 i 1 i 1 i * •X •X •\ «x Ss - - Sh tZ *—< ’sZ • Ut © pH a U 3 3 3 3 3 3 &• <1 3 s w 3 p. hJ 3 2 o CO CO GO CO CO rH »H Cl > © sZ rH • u 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 p. a 2 a 3 ►”3 *-H 8 a CO o» o rH o> 00 CD (M Cl rH I I I I • 1 i i >» © CO >» fll Ph i »—1 *0 tfi &4 © 3 3 3 kH © © rH s b» © 3 33 34 © H 3 Pm © 3 a o o 3 o H P- ►o 3 2 r3 O o *75 — 3 £ *TJ © « •d • 1 c 3 r -( 3 o © CO CO »— H 3 © 3 3 3 O u CC S © 3 © H-S 3 3 t- O © © jn rH r© o H 3 S3 h5 a • • 1 1 1 , 1 I • t 1 I r3 b0 3 to 3 O 3 o H_> 3 3 fcX) TO 3 3 © T [5) 3 >-] 3 3 bo cq 3 S CO 3 hi 0 hi ’© rH U Hi o 3 E *© 3 H <4 a 3 a • (_l r3 r3 o ^5 o CO a 4-» 3 Ch © £ § 3 3 CO © M 3 O © hi bo 3 3 3 © I 3 o 3 "3 3 HH © •M 5 o •f2 -4-* •H Q © fcD • a i 1 1 1 a bo • 3 .5 3 Sh © r— < bp 3 ►q 4-> 4- © hi a i 1 • 1 lii 3h © © *© P M bo b0 c © 3 r3 l/l o # 3 a i 1 • H-> 1 *3 © ‘3 © © © o o ■4-a < bo 3 .2 o •w 3 3 © r3 H ■+-> «*-a HbH -4H> •HI © to ^3 bp *-> © M r3 H 5 P R P 3 O a © rH On •rH Pm Q 8 CO O O r-t CO CO CO ^ Tji ^ CO ^ iO "T CO c c 3 GO 0.50, 196 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Return of all Offences committed in the above County since the last Spring Assizes, so far S U M M A R Y. - Number of Offences. N umber of Cases in which Depositions were taken. Number of Cases n which the Offenders were Unknown. Number of i Injured Persons who Declined to Lodge Informations at all. NATURE OF OFFENCE. Since last Assizes. Offences of a Previous Date for which Arrests were made within the Period of this Return. In which Persons were Named or Charged. In which Persons were not Named. Homicide ------- Firing at the Person ----- 4 - - 4 4 — Conspiracy to Murder - - - - - - - Administering Poison - - - - - - - - - Rape, and Felonious Assault on Females - - - - - - OFFENCES AGAINST Infanticide, and Concealing Birth — - — — — — THE PERSON - Abduction ------- — - - - — - Assault on Police, Bailiffs, &c. - — - — — — - Serious Assaults - - — — — - — Desertion of Children - — - — — — — Unnatural Crime ----- — — — — .. — -Bigamy ------- — - — ' Arson and Incendiary Fire - 6 _ _ 3 6 3 Burglary and Housebreaking ... - - - - - Highway and other Robberies - - - 1 - - 1 1 - OFFENCES AGAINST Taking and holding Forcible Possession - - - - - - PROPERTY - - ( Cattle and Sheep Stealing - 2 1 — 1 Killing, Cutting, or Maiming Cattle - - - - - Sacrilege ------- — - - — - - Levying Contributions - - - - - - - l Piracy ------- *— -Demand or Robbery of Arms - - - — _ — _ Appearing Armed ----- - — — - - - Faction Fights ------ - — — - Riots and Affrays ----- - — - - - Administering Oaths Unlawfully - — - - - Threatening Notices or Letters, and Intimi¬ dation. 48 1 11 48 37 OFFENCES AFFECTING Pound Breach ------ - - — “ - - THE PUBLIC PEACE\ Turning up Land ----- — — — Attacking Houses ----- 1 — — — “ - Resistance to Legal Process - - - - Illegal Meetings or Processions - - - - - - Levelling ------- - - - - Injury to Property, Plucking Sheep, &c. 1 - - 1 1 1 Firing into Dwellings - 2 - 1 — 1 1 Injury to Places of Worship - - - — - - - Party Demonstrations - - - - f Combination ------ _ ... . Prison Breaking, and aiding Escape of Pri¬ soners. — “ OTHER OFFENCES - Injuring or attempting to injure a Railway Train. " “ Ribbonism ------ - - - - - - ^ Coining ------- — — — — — Totals - - - 65 1 2 20 62 43 MINOR OFFENCES NOT Summary Convictions - -- -- -- - Cases sent to Trial --------- Cases Dismissed - -- -- -- -- Cases in which no Proceedings have been taken before Magistrates Totals - - Mullingar, 7 July 1870. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS) 197 as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary— continued. - SUMMARY. Number of Persons Arrested within the Period of this Return. Number of Accused or Suspected Persons. Numbei of Persons Arrested by the Number of Cases in Number of Number of Persons for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences within this Period. For Offences of Convicted at Quarter Sessions. Convicted Discharged for want Constabulary within the Period of this Return, for Offences Trial was Postponed at Quarter or Petty Sessions. Cases for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences Committed For Offences Without Sworn Information. Upon Sworn Information. a Former Period. Summarily. of sufficient Evidence. Acquitted. Committed in England, Wales, and Scotland. within the Period of this Return. of a Former Period. 1 1 7 - - — - 7 - - - - - — - — — — : _ — : - — — - — - — - — _ __ _ — _ — - — — - — _ - — — — - — — - - - - - - — — — - — - ~ - - - - — — — — ’ — — — - - — - - — — — 1 — — — - 1 — - - — — — — - — — - — - — - — — — — • - — - - - - - - - — - _ - — - — - - - - - — — - — — — — _ __ _ — - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - “ - - - - - - - - - - - - — _ — — — — _ — — — - - 5 - 1 - - 5 - - - - - 1 — -u - — — — — — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -r - 1 - - - - 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — — *“■ — — — — _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . — — — - — - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - - — - — — - _ _ _ _ — _ — — — — — — - - - - 13 1 1 - - 13 1 - - - - 1 SPECIALLY REPORTED. Common Assaults. Larcenies. Intoxication. 110 11 187 2 5 28 5 35 13 1 — 153 22 222 * 0.50. f* C C 4 John Harcourt, s.x., for County Inspector at Depth. 198 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE W N TO TO £"2 ■g •= © ® 4-1 CD .5 a : P-. S3 cd © rO o | u & rd -M -4-3 P =5 £ 0 rO C5 i OX WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). u P © c r/> d rj® c 3 -o ^ * I © © p # © CO © . 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Pj r ( - >> >» cO s cO g A c3 g >> 3 c3 g 4 o w (M r—1 rH rH CO rH l 1 4» GQ © c pa o X O a o o B h-3 Cl Ph pH 3 P-4 g 43 P cO r , o GQ .3 pa s C3 0Q © GQ 49 |q pa Ph © 49 © g CO c3 ^ o © >-a CL CL o Ph H-5 GO © GQ 1 © pa o w bo c © 1 © 1 © 1 © E 3 S s g E c3 C3 03 o3 c3 m CO CO CO CO . 49 <5 1 1 1 • Q\ rH CM CO 4 »o 201 0.50, D D 2 202 APPENDIX TO REPORT PROM SELECT COMMITTEE Return of all Offences committed in Ring’s County since the last Assizes, so far SUMMARY. - - - . Number of Cases Number of —■ Number of Offences. in which Depositions were taken. Number of Injured Cases in which the Offenders were Persons who declined to Lodge N A T U RE OF OFFENCE. Since last Offences of a previous Date for which Arrests were In which Persons were Named In which j Persons Assizes. made within the Period of or | w T ere not Unknown. Informations this Return. Charged. j JN amed. at all. f Homicide ______ . Firing at the Person ----- Conspiracy to Murder ----- _ Administering Poison ----- _ OFFENCES AGAINST Rape, and Felonious Assault on Females 1 1 Infanticide, and Concealing Birth THE PERSON - Abduction - _ _ ~ Assault on Police, Bailiffs, &c. - - - ~ Serious Assaults 1 1 Desertion of Children ----- Unnatural Crime ----- ^Bigamy. - - - - - - Arson and Incendiary Fire - - - - 2 2 2 Burglary and Housebreaking - 2 _ 1 2 1 Highway and other Robberies - 2 _ 2 _ OFFENCES AGAINST PROPERTY - - Taking and holding Forcible Possession — _ _ _ Cattle and Sheeji Stealing - 1 — _ 1 __ _ Killing, Cutting, or Maiming Cattle . Sacrilege Levying Contributions - _ ^Piracy ------- - - - - - - Demand or Robbery of Arms - Appearing Armed ----- — _ _ _ Faction Fights ------ — __ _ _ Riots and Affrays _____ — — _ _ _ Administering Oaths Unlawfully - - - — _ _ _ _ Threatening Notices or Letters, and Intimi- 12 _ 1 11 14 dation. Pound Breach - - Ij OFFENCES AFFECTn\ u, THE PUBLIC PEACE - Turning up Land - Attacking Houses ----- 5 - 1 1 4 4 ' Resistance to Legal Process - — — — — Illegal Meetings or Processions - - - — — — — — _ Levelling ------- — - — — — _ Injury to Property, Plucking Sheep, &c. - - - — — __ Firing into Dwellings ----- - — — - — _ Injury to Places of Worship - — - — — — _ Party Demonstrations - - - - — — — — — - T Combination ...... Prison Breaking, and aiding Escape of - - — — — — OTHER OFFENCES _ ( Prisoners. Injuring or attempting to injure a Railway _ _ _ Train. Ribbonism ------ Coining ------- - - - - - Totals - - - 26 - 7 4 19 19 MINOR OFFENCES NOT Summary Convictions ........ Cases sent to Trial - -- -- -- -- Cases Dismissed - -- -- -- -- Cases in which no Proceedings have been taken before Magistrates Totals : Tullamore, 8 July 1870. ON WESTMEATH, &C. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS) 203 as the same have been Reported to the Constabulary, dated 8 July 1870— continued. S U M M A R Y. Number of Persons Arrested within the Period of this Return. Number of Accused or Suspected Persons. Number of Persons Arrested by Number of Cases in which Trial was Postponed at Quarter or Petty Sessions. Number of Cases for Trial Number of Persons for Trial at this Assizes. For Offences within this Period. For Offences of a former Period. | Convicted at Convicted Dischargee for want of sufficient Evidence. Constabulary, within the Period of this Return, for Offences For Offences Committed For Offences Without Sworn Information. Upon Sworn Information. Quarter Sessions. Summarily Acquitted. Committed in England, Wales, and Scotland. at this Assizes. within the Period of this Return. of a former Period. — - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - - - - — 1 - - - - - - - 1 1 - — - - — - - - - - - - — — - - - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - • - - - - — 4 - 4 - - - - - - - - — - - - - - - - - — — — — - - - - • — - - - - — ““ — " r _ _ _ _ _ _ _ — _ — — — — — — - — - — — 2 1 - - — 1 - - - 1 2 - — - - - - - - - - — - 2 — - - - 2 - - - — — — _ — - - - - - - - - - — _ — - - - - - - - - — — _ — - - - - - - - — — — " _ _ — _ _ _ _ — — - _ - - - - - - - — — — — _ - - - - - - — - — — _ — — — — - — — — — _ - - - - - - - - — — - 2 — — — — — — — 1 2 “ - - - - - - - - - : — _. - 2 - - - 1 - - - i 1 - - - - - - - - - - — — 4 10 - 4 - 4 - - - 4 6 SPECIALLY REPORTED. 0 . 50 . Common Assaults. Larcenies. Intoxication. 49 6 267 5- 4 — 26 14 39 4 4 — 84 28 306 D D 3 B. M. 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Gibbons, County Inspector. REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON WESTMEATH, &e. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS); TOGETHER WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. [Communicated from the Commons to ihe Lords.] Ordered to be printed 25th April 1871. ( 75 .) Under 22 01 . I N D E X TO THE REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE * WESTMEATH, & c . (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 31 March 1871. 147. ANALYSIS OF INDEX. ALPHABETICAL and CLASSIFIED LIST of the Principal Headings in the following Index, with the Pages at which they will be found. PAGE AGRARIAN CRIME - - - - 229 Crime - • - - - 231 Evictions - - - - - 233 labouring Classes - - - - 239 Landlords - - - - - 239 Ribbon Society - - - - 247 Vacant Farms - m - m 257 Arrests {Peace Preservation Act ) - - - - 229 Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act - - •B 253 Compensation - - - - - - 231 Convictions - - - - 231 Evidence - - - - 234 Juries - - - - 238 Crime ----- 231 Agrarian Crime - - - 229 Murders - - - m 242 Police - - - - - - 244 Ribbon Society - “ - 247 Duffy* Captain - - - - - - 233 Evictions - - - - 233 Evidence - - - - 234 Commission of Inquiry - - - 231 Convictions - - - - - -■ 231 Haugh, J. H. Fetherston - - - 236 Hornidge, Mr. - - - 23 ^ Intimidation and Terrorism - - - 236 Kilbeggan District - - - - 238 Moran , Michael - - - 242 Extra Police Tax - - - - 234 Fenianism - - - - - - m 235 Government - - - - 236 Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act - - 253 Intimidation and Terrorism - - - 23b Evidence - - - m - - 234 Vacant Farms - * * 257 Juries ----- 238 Special Juries - - - - - - - 252 King’s County - - - - - 238 Police - - - - - 244 Ribbon Society - m - - 247 Suspension of Habeas Co/pus Act - - - 253 Labouring Classes - ~ - - - 239 1 47 • Land Act - • m - - PAGE 239 Landlords - - . 239 Escorts - . • • 233 Evictions - - - - . 233 Magistrates - - - - - - - 240 Rents - - - - - 2^7 Magistrates - - • - - 240 Escorts - - - - • 239 Landlords - m - m - 239 Meath ----- 240 Evictions - - - • • 233 Grass Lands - - - . • 236 Landlords - - - - - 239 Police - - - - - 244 Ribbon Society - - - - . 247 Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act - - - 253 Murders - - - - - 342 Anketell , Mr. - • • • 229 Compensation - - - - - 231 Connor, Patrick - - - M 231 Dowlirur, Francis - - - - 233 Extra Police Tax - - - - 234 Haugh, J. II. Fetherston - - - - - 236 Ribbon Society - - - - - 247 Walsh , Peter - - - - 258 Waters , Thomas - - - - 258 Peace Preservation Act - - - - 244 Arrests - - - - 229 Compensation - - - m - 331 Threatening Letters - - - - - 257 Police : 1. As to the Police Arrangements in the Disturbed Districts - 244 2 . As to the Military Organisation of the Police Force generally - - >244 3 . As to the Discharge of Detective Duties - 244 4 . As to the Introduction of various Improve - ments - - 245 Arrests - - - - - 229 Convictions - - - 231 Escorts - - - - - - 233 Evidence - - - 234 Extra Police Tax - - 234 Peace Preservation Act - - 244 Search , Right of - - 251 Public Houses - - - - - • 24 5 H 228 ANALYSIS OF INDEX. PAGE Ribbon Society —continued. PAGE Railway Outrages - Anketellf 'Mr. - Royal Canal Shaw , Mr. Ribbon Society: 245 229 251 252 1 . Evidence relative to the Existence of Rib- bonistn in Westmeath - - - - 247 2 . Organisation of the Ribbon Socuty - - C48 3 . Form of Oath - - 248 4 . Scope of Action of the Society - 248 5. Leaders of the Movement m 248 6 . Employment of Strangers as Assassins - 248 7 . Question as to the Inefficiency of the present Law for the Suppression of the Evil - 251 8. Conclusions of the Committee - - 249 Agrarian Crime - - 229 Clergy . - 230 Convictions ....... - 231 Duffiy, Captain . ... . 23 3 Evidence ------- - 234 Fenianism ...... - 235 Intimidation and Terrorism - - 236 Juries - King's County - Labouring Classes - Land Act - Landlords - Longford - Louth ----- Magistrates - Mayo - - - - - Murders - Reace Preservation Act - Police - Railway Outrages - Special Commission - Special Constables - Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act Tenantry - Threatening Letters - Vacant Farms - Vigilance Committee - Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act Fenianism - Government - Threatening Letters - - - - - 238 • 238 * 239 - 239 - 239 - 240 - 240 - 240 - 240 - 242 - 244 - 244 - 245 - 252 - 252 - 253 - 2/)7 - 257 - 257 - 257 - 253 - 235 - 236 - 257 [ 22 9 ] INDEX. \_N.B .—In this Index the Figures following the Names of the Witnesses refer to the Questions in the Evidence; those following App., to the Pages in the Appendix; and the Numerals following Rep., to the Pages in the Report.] A. AGRARIAN CRIME. Agrarian character of the majority of the outrages in West¬ meath; reference hereon to the poverty of the labouring population, Talbot 384-392- Conclusion, however, that poverty has nothing to do with the agrarian outrages in the county, lb. 455-457-Occurrence of some agrarian outrages irrespectively of the Ribbon organisation, Mooney 2027-2030. Impression that agrarian crime has not been so frequent in Meath and Westmeath during the last year or two, as in former years. Eight Rev. Dr. Nulty 2724-2726- Belief that agrarian crime has its origin in the bad feeling caused by evictions, ib. 2763- 2765. 2772, 2773. 2977-2979. Returns and statistics in detail, relative to agrarian outrages in the counties of Meath and Westnu ath, and in King’s County at different periods, showing in each case the nature of the offence, the proceedings taken, if any, and the result, App. 164-171. 177- 225. See also Crime. Evictions. Labouring Classes. Landlords. Ribbon Society. Vacant Farms. Anhetell , Mr. Details relative to the murder of Mr. Anketell, the station-master at Mullingar; combination of reasons for the deed, Talbot 130-132-Arrest of two men for the murder, there having been much circumstantial evidence ; necessity eventually of discharging them without trial, ib. 133-139-The murderers were well known in the district, ib. 413. True bills were found against two men, but there was not sufficient evidence to go to trial, Cusack 1345- 1480, 1481-Refusal of Mr. Anketell to leave Mullingar Station, though pressed bv witness to do so, ib. 1373. 1455, 1456-Ill feeling against Mr. Anketell before his death, because he had removed some porters from the station, ib. 1374. 1474-Several threatening letters received by Mr. Anketell; impression that this was well known, ib. 1455. 1503-1507-Belief that the police used every exertion to obtain evidence in the case, though unsuccesfully, ib. 1478-1481. Arms. Restrictions placed by witness upon the issue of licenses for arms, when the county of Westmeath was proclaimed, Talbot 83. 364. 367-372-Constant searches made for arms, with very trifling success, ib. 84,85. 373, 374-Improvement by the extension of the time allowed for searching, ib. 84. 702-Wry good aims seized upon one occasion, ib. 363-Improvement if the Arms Act were enforced more strictly, ib. 366. Exceptional instances of witness granting a license for arms to a holder of less than forty acres, Talbot 517-520-Frequent compulsion upon those having arms to deliver them up for the purpose of Ribbon outrages, ib. 703-Total number of licenses for arms in witness’s district; liability of the holders to have their premises searched, Reade 951-953. Arrests ( Peace Preservation Act). Explanation as to the steps taken by witness and the police in carrying out the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act for the arrest of persons out one hour after sunset under suspicious circumstances, Talbot 1 73-191.373~379 ——Recommendation that it be not necessary to prove “ suspicious circumstances ” in order to arrest persons found out at night; less power to the magistrates thereby, than to the Lord Lieutenant by suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, ib. 288, 289. 377, 378. 433-438-Improvement if, under the Peace Preservation Act, strangers lurking about at any time were liable to be arrested, ib. 495-499. 147. Further 230 A R R C LE Report, 1871— continued. Arrests (Peace Preservation Act) —continued. Further consideration of the question of inefficiency of the 23rd section of the Peace Preservati n Act, as to the arrest of persons out late under suspicious circumstances, Talbot 665-676. 766—768-Enforcement bv witness of the provisions as to the arrest of persons out at night under suspicious circumstances; only two committals were the result, Barry 1165-1172. 1269-1271-Advantage of the power of arresting persons out at night under suspicious circumstances, Rochfort-Boyd 1538-Several arrests of persons out late at night, without any conviction having been secured, Townsend 3348 - 3354 - See also Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act. B. Barry, Captain William Fitzjames. (Analysis ofhisEvide .ee.)—Has charge, as a stipen¬ diary magistrate, of the district of Westmeath lately under Captain Talbot; has also served in Mayo and other counties, 1156-1160. 1215-Diminution in ihe number of offences in the district since Captain Talbot left it; they are, however, of a more serious character, 1161-1164. 1175-Enforcement by witness of the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act as to the arrest of persons out at night under suspicious circumstances; only two committals were the result, 1165-1172. 1269-1271-Good effect of the closing of the public-houses after sunset, 1173, 1174. Widespread intimidation in the county, so that it is impossible to obtain reliable evidence when outrages are committed, 1176-1180. 1196-1203. 1232-1235. 1267. 1272- 1275. 1293, 1294-Particulars in connexion with the murder of Waters, a process- server; impossibility of procuring any satisfactory evidence, so that there was no com¬ mittal, 1181-1200. 1239-1245- Conclusion as to the murder of Waters having been a Ribbon outrage, 1189, 1190. Necessity of applying to Westmeath some legislative measure more stringent than the Peace Preservation Act, 1204. 1210, 1211- Distinct state of crime in Westmeath as compared with Mayo and other counties, 1205-1209-Report made by witness to Government in December last recommending more stringent action, 1212-1216- Exceptional instances of reported outrages not having occurred at all; on the other hand, some occur which are not reported, 1217-1222. 1237, 1238. Strong objection to the extra police tax, as causing alienation and ill-will, and as not being any check to crime, 1223-1225-Low wages and wretched condition of the labouring class in the county ; better employment but for the terrorism which prevails, 1226-1231. 1249-1266-Effect of the existing terrorism in preventing all freedom of action between landlord and tenant; limited effect upon commercial transactions, 1232— 1235. 1272-1278-Expediency of limiting a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act to Westmeath, 1236. 1246-1248. Danger to the life of any person giving important evidence to the Committee respecting the Ribbon Society, 1267, 1268-Large number of public-houses in witness’s district; instance of withdrawal of a license, 1279-1283-Attendance generally of some local magistrates at the petty sessions, 1284. Impression that the state of the county has not affected the selling price of land, 1285 (Captain Talbot ). Dissent from the foregoing statement, 1286,1287-Impracticability of obtaining accommodation at Mullingar for the Crown witnesses in Mr. Anketell’s case, 1290-(Mr. Barry). Great objection of the people'to hold any communication with a policeman, 1293, 1294. Blagriff, James. Particulars in connection with the attempted murder of James Blagriff, in the county of Westmeath, on the 23rd January 1871, App. 174. C. Cassidy. Reference to the visit of an armed party to t.he house of a man named Cassidy, as the the only case in which there was evidence enough for a trial; acquittal in this case, Talbot 142-153. 656. 699-701. Clearances. See Evictions. Clergy. Benefit expected from the influence of the clergy, provided the influence of the Ribbon leaders were withdrawn by imprisonment, Rochfort-Boyd 1647-1651. 1673_ Denunciation of Ribbonism by the Roman Catholic Clergy, Mooney 2309, 2310_ Great anxiety of the Roman Catholic clergy to put a stop to Ribbonism, Seed 2452- 2454 - Steps taken by witness, and by the priests generally, to put a stop to illegal societies, Right Rev. Dr, rfulty 2732-2734-Contents of a pastoral letter by witness adverted C LE C R I 231 Report, 1871 — continued. Clergy —continue d. to and explained, with reference more especially to certain statements reflecting upon the conduct of the landlords, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2735. 2748-2762. 2828-2830. 2047- 2 954 -Impropriety of the priests publicly denouncing any persons whom they believe to be leading offenders or criminals, ib. 2961-2971-Statement as to the priests notbeino- informed in regard to Ribbonism, because it does not exist as a society, ib. 2999-3002. Commission of Inquiry. Belief that a Commission of Inquiry with full power of indemnity would not succeed in obtaining any evidence as to the Ribbon Society, Mooney 2324, 2 325 - Compensation. Ruinous pressure of the present tax on any district for compensation and extra police, when an outrage is committed in the district, Rochfort-Boyd 1531-1535 -Objection in respect of the area over which the compensation is levied, ib 1532. 1535 - 1712-1715. .Approval of the principle of levying compensation upon districts where outrages have been committed ; necessity, however, of some limitation of the amounts, excessive sums being sometimes awarded, Mooney 1965-1978. 2143-2164. 2270-2277-Expediency of discretion in the grand jury as to the area of chargeability of compensation payment*, ib. 2157-2164. 2270-2277. Explanation and approval of the working of the provisions of the Peace Pieservation Act, relative to compensation in cases of personal injury, Julian 2467-2475-Prac¬ tice of the grand jury in assessing the compensation, and in determining the area upon which it is to be levied, ib. 2467-2475. 2510-2513-Checks upon unduly large compensation sums being awarded by the grand jury, ib. 2467. 2470-2474. 2513. 2534 . Heavy pressure of the very large indemnity fines imposed on the districts, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2802. 2993-2998-Opinion as to the good effect of the system of com¬ pensation to persons injured ; instance of this, Rogers 3244. Conacre. Occurrence of many outrages through the non-adoption of conacre, Talbot 420, 421. Connor, Patrick. Particulars relative to the murder of a man named Connor in Westmeath, in the year 1863; belief as to the action of the Ribbon Society in this case, Talbot 15-18. 34-Impracticability of procuring evidence, ib. 18, 19. Consolidation of Farms. Belief as to there having been a large consolidation of farms in Meath, Talbot 392. 588-591. Convictions. Failure to convict in anv case of homicide or serious outrage whilst witness was stationed in Westmeath, Talbot 141-Conviction in one case of writing a threatening letter, ib. 141. 154-156-Obstacles to seeming a conviction in the case of an illegal oath found in a public-house in Mullingar a few years ago, ib. 692-699. Instance of conviction in the case of some men encountered at night with arms in their hands, one of them having been arrested, Talbot 797; Reade 887. 1030-1036- Remarks relative to the conviction of a person arrested at night with arms in his hands; doubt as to any real Ribbon outrage in this case, Rochfort-Boyd 1553. 1 73^-1745- Particulars relative to the arrest by witness of the leader of an armed party in November last, previous information having been obtained; conviction in this case, Townsend 3335 - 3365 . See also Evidence. Juries. Crawford, George. Particulars in connection with an attempt to murder George Crawford, in the county of Meath, on the 27th March 1870, App. 168. Crime. Special character of the crime in Westmeath, as compared with that in other parts of Ireland, Talbot 5-7-Diminution in the number of offences in witness’s district, since Captain Talbot left it; they are however of a more serious character, Barry 1161-1164. 1175-Distinct state of crime in Westmeath as compared with Mayo and other counties, ib. 1205-1209-Exceptional instances of reported outrages not having occurred at all; on the other hand some occur which are not reported, ib. 1217-1222. 1237, 1238. Infinitely less crime in Westmeath at the present time than there was thirty or forty years ago,' Seed 2350-2353. 2355, 2356. 2409,2410-Very little serious crime in Ireland, generally, at the present time, ib. 2361. Lull in crime in the county owing probably to the appointment of the present Com¬ mittee, Julian 2585-2587-Comparative absence of crime in Ireland, generally, ib. 2692, 2693-Belief that there were more outrages in Westmeath last year than the year before, ib. 2694, 2695-Instances of information, or reports concerning outrages which never occurred ; facility of detecting these misrepresentations, .Royers 3166-3182. 3241-3243. 147. I I 2 Paper I I 2 232 C R I cus Report, 1871— continued. Crime —continued. Paper by Mr. Creed relative to the great decrease of crime throughout Ireland, App. 151, 152- Returns and statistics relative to crime in Meath, Westmeath, and King’s County, App. 155-158. 164 et seq. Encouragement to the perpetration of crime, owing to the immunity from detection and punishment, Rep. iii. See also Agragrian Crime. Murders. Police. Ribbon Society. Crofton, The Rev. James. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Is trustee for some property in Westmeath; resides in Louth., 1777-1779-Has not received any threatening letters, but five shots were fired at him in March 1870 on account of his having taken steps to raise the rents on the land in Westmeath, 1780-1790-Explains that the intended in¬ crease of rents was exceedingly small, and was not more than might fairly be demanded, i 784. 1812. 1814. Employment of Waters the process-server to serve an ejectment for witness on the father of Captain Duffy; conclusion that the murder of Waters on this occasion was a Ribbon outrage, 1791-1796-Belief that witness was shot at by order of Captain Duffy, 1797, 1798-'Existence beyond all doubt of a secret society in Westmeath, 1799-1802. Suggestion that the Habeas Corpus Act be suspended in the disturbed districts, and that concurrently therewith steps be taken to send the people and their families to America, 1803-1807. 1819-1821-Statement as to witness having, with the protection of the police, served a notice to quit upon Capt. Duffy’s father; very small increase of rent originally required in this case, 1808, 1809. i8i4—1818-Constant police protec¬ tion of witness at his home in Louth, though he is very popular with the people there, 1810, i 811. Ill effect anticipated on the release of men imprisoned for a time under a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 1820. 1822-Expectation that no one will dare to take the farm from which Duffy is being ejected, 1823--Saving of much bloodshed, if all eject¬ ment notices were served by the police, ib. Crown Solicitors. Residence of the Crown solicitors adverted to in connection with the local administration of justice, Mooney 2042-2046. 2258, 2259, Cusack, Ralph Smith. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Is chairman of the Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland, and of the Royal Canal, which run through Westmeath, Meath, &c.; is also a magistrate for the counties of Dublin and Meath, &c., and is clerk of the Crown and Hanaper, 1295-1301. 1430-1435-Numerous outrages on the railway in Westmeath during the last five years ; several also in Meath, 1302-1333. 1338, 1339. 1378-1390-Instances of the inability of the railway company to obtain men to fill certain vacancies on the line ; interference thereby with the efficient working of the rail¬ way, 1306-1308. 1311-1315. 1330-1333- Several threatening letters received by Mr. Shaw, the late station-master at Trim, 1318-1320-Frequency of threatening letters to employes of the company, 1324—1326 •-Conclusion as to the railway outrages in Westmeath being connected with the Ribbon Society, though this is not so in the case of outrages in Mayo and other counties, 1328, 1329- 1334~}34 0 - l 354 - l 3 o 6 - 1385-1390. 1401-1403. 1471— Steps always taken by the police to bring the offenders to justice, but without, success, 1341-1346. Statement as to the labourers on the lloyal Canal having for many years had the appointments to themselves, no outrage having ever been committed; danger of any interference with this mode of appointment, 1347-1353. 1412-1415. 1435-1448- Frequent communication made to Government and to the authorities relative to the out¬ rages on the railway, 1358-1362. 1365, 1366. 1410, 1411. Particulars relative to the case of Mr. Shaw, and the danger which threatened him ; recent letter from the Crown Solicitor, in consequence of which Mr. Shaw has been removed from Trim, 1367-1378. 1407, 1408. 1457-1469——Refusal of Mr. Anketell to leave Mullingar though pressed by witness to do so, 1373. 1455, 1456- Ill feeding against Mr. Anketell before his death, because he had removed some porters, 137F H74- Statement of the wages of the labourers on the railway ; absence of complaint, 1391- 1395. 1409. 1416-1418-Opinion that the only remedy for the outrages in West¬ meath, is the arrest and imprisonment of the Ribbon leaders, 1396, 1397-Doubt as to the system of appointment on the canal being connected with the Ribbon conspiracy, 1398-1400. 1470-1474-Relief to the people themselves, if the existing intimidation were removed, 1404-1406-Rate of wages in the county ; belief that there is full em¬ ployment, 1416-1423. 1428, 1429-Peaceable character of the greater portion of Meath, 1449-1451. Several cu s e v i *33 Report, 1871— continued. Cusack , Ralph Smith. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. Several threatening letters received by Mr. Anketell; impression that this was well known, 1455. 1503-1507-Belief that the police used every exertion to obtain evi¬ dence in Mr. Anketell’s case, though unsuccessfully, 1478-1481-Very little outrage in most of the districts through which the railway runs, 148-2-1485. Difficulty in obtaining any information when an outrage is committed on the railway, i486, 1487. 1498-1502-Practice of reducing the pay on that portion of the line where an outrage has been committed ; good effect produced, 1488-1491. 1494. 1508-1510-- Less objectionable incidence of the extra police tax, if levied upon houses, 1492, 1493. 149 . 5 - 1497 - D. Detectives. See Police. Doivling, Francis. Circumstances connected with the murder of Dowling in Westmeath in November last, the case having no connection with land ; impracticability of obtaining any evidence, or any clue to the assassin, Reade 860-874. Particulars in connection with the murder of Francis Dowling on the 25th November 1870, App. 173. Duffy, Captain. Firing of five shots at witness in March 1870; belief that this was by order of Captain Duffy, Crofton 1780-1790. 1797, 1798-Information relative to the employment of Waters by witness to serve an ejectment on the father of Captain Duffy, the murder of Waters on this occasion having been a Ribbon outrage, ib. 1791-1796 -Statement as to witness having, with the protection of the police, served a notice to quit upon Captain Duffy’s father; very small increase of rent originally required in this case, ib. 1808, 1809. 1814-1818-Expectation that no one will dare to take the farm from which Duffy is being ejected, ib. 1823. Statement in connection with the valuation of certain land for Captain Duffy by two gentlemen, one or both of whom are magistrates, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2791-2799. 2852,2853.2871. Prospect of steps being taken by the people themselves to get rid of Captain Duffy, Right Hon. Colonel French 3566. E. .Escorts. Present state of Westmeath adverted to in connection with the provision of escorts for certain magistrates and others, Talbot 523, 524. 619-628--’Police escorts now pro¬ vided for six persons in witness’s district, Reade 888-894-Constant police protection of witness at his home in Louth, though he is very popular with the people there, Crofton 1810,1811-Statement as to Mr. Boyd having had the protection of the police for some yeais, up to about two years ago, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2755. 2759-2761- Hostility of the Ribbonmen towards witness, so that he had a police escort for some years ; this ceased four or five years ago, Rochfort-Boyd 3307-3313. Evictions. Belief that there have been no evictions in Westmeath, save for non-payment of rent; some rents have, however, been raised, Talbot 351. 423-425. 774-Denial that there have been any wholesale evictions or clearances in Westmeath, Rochfort-Boyd 1568-1570. 1578-1582-Very few' wholesale clearances or evictions in Westmeath ; instance of a large clearance ten or twelve years ago, Mooney 2078-2089-Several evic¬ tions effected quietly in Westmeath, compensation being sometimes given, ib. 2280- 2283-Other counties have suffered much more from evictions than Westmeath, ib. 2331 - Sympathy of the people with any man evicted for non-payment of rent; instance of murder in Meath about a year ago for such eviction, Seed 2387-2392-Reference to certain parishes in Meath in which several families are said to be under notice to quit, ib. 2417-2421. 2431-2433-Impoverished condition of some of the tenants evicted in Meath, ib. 2445-2447. Numerous evictions in Meath and Westmeath, though not. within the last few years; very cruel character of some of these. Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2736-2741. 2749-2765. 2937- 2947-Large diminution in the population of the two counties between 1851 and 1861 ; ib. 2742-2747-Eviction of 200 people from one townland between 1835 and 18435*5.2752. Information relative to certain clearances and evictions on an extensive scale by Mr. Boyd on the Old Road estate and elsewhere ; strong comments upon Mr. Boyd’s treatment generally of his labourers and tenants on the score of eviction. Right. Rev. Dr. 147. I I 3 Nulty 234 E Y I EXT Report, 1871— continued. Evictions —conti nu ed. Nulty 2754-2762. 2772-2777. 2872-2884. 2937-2942. 3032-3040- witness upon an occasion when qoo persons were evicted, ib. ‘iq 58- the bad feeling caused by evictions is the cause of agrarian crime, ib. 2763-2765. 2772, -Presence of •Conclusion that 2773 - 2977 - 2 979 - . . Evidence in denial of certain statements by Bishop Nulty, as to numerous evictions and clearances having been carried out on witness’s estates, explanation in detail with respect to certain evictions on his property, as well as in regard to his treatment generally of his tenants and labourers, Rochfort-Boyd 3267-33 20. Evidence. Sympathy on the part of the lower order with the offenders, whilst there is a very general terrorism, so that to obtain evidence is impossible. 7-14. 330-334 _Statement as to no instance having occurred, under the Peace Preservation Act, of witness summoning any one capable of giving evidence,^. 192-194. 380,381-In¬ creased facilities of obtaining evidence by means of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, ib. 466, 467. 480, 481-Inadequacy of the power under the 13th section of the Peace Preservation Act, as to the imprisonment of persons refusing to give evidence; the leaders cannot be reached by this means, ib. 552-563. 766-768. Danger to the life of any person coming from Westmeath to give important evidence to the Committee about Ribbonism, Talbot 641-644; Reade 1150-1155; Barry 1267, 1268. Impossibility generally of procuring evidence when outrages are committed, Reade 875, 876. 1041-1044. 1127-1131-Wide-spread intimidation in Westmeath, so that it is impossible to obtain reliable evidence when outrages are committed, Barry 1176-1180. 1196-1203. 1232-1235. 1267. 1272-1275. 1293, 1294-Difficulty in obtaining any information where an outrage is committed on the railway in Westmeath, Cusack I486, 1487. 1498-1502-Reasons which render it practically impossible to obtain evidence for prosecution of Ribbon outrages, especially when perpetrated by order of the society, Rochfort-Boyd 1543-1545- 157 1 ~ 1 575- Increased difficulty in procuring evidence owing to the increased fear inspired by the Ribbon organisation, Mooney 1959-1963. 2107-2117— Impracticability of obtaining evidence in Ribbon cases, owing to the terror of the people, Seed 2357-2360. 2376- 2381. 2437-2440; Townsend 3333-3336; Right Hon Col. French 3535-3539 -Great difficulty, amounting almost to impossibility, in eliciting the truth in Ribbon or agrarian cases from witness, or in obtaining any information at all ; illustration of this, Julian 2459-2466. 2536-—Terror caused by Ribbonism, so that it is almost impossible to obtain evidence, whilst detectives are readily found out, Sir J. Stewart-Wood 3413,3414. 3487- Explanation as to evidence against the offenders not being procurable; belief that this is not owing to terrorism, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2814-28 l 7. 2921-2925. 2930-2936. 3020-3030. Conclusion of the Committee as to its being almost impossible to bring offenders to justice, owing chiefly to the terror created by the action of the Ribbon society, Rep. iii. See also Commission of Inquiry , Convictions. Haugh, J. H. Fetherston. Hornidge, Mr. Intimidation and Terrorism. Kilbeggan District. Moran, Michael. Extra Police Tax: Imposition of an extra police tax upon certain townlands on the recommendation of witness in 1865 or 1866; conclusions adverse to such tax as falling mainly on the innocent, and as failing to prevent crime or to produce evidence, Talbot 245-249. 414- 417--Very natural complaints made against the tax, ib. 252, 253. 414-417 - Advantage of the tax as a means of increasing the police force for patrols, &c., ib. 255. 382. 616. 685, 686-Expediency of confining a police tax to the criminal districts, ib. 361,362. 383-Very little effect of a police tax as compared with the dread of the Ribbon Society, ib. 493, 494-Discontent caused by the Extra Police Act whilst it has not effected any repression of crime, ib. 615-618. 725-728. Unequal and harsh pressure of the police tax, whilst ii has no effect in checking crime, Reade 1111-1126—— Strong objection to the police tax, as causing alienation and ill- will, and as not being any check to crime, Barry 1223-1225-Less objectionable incidence of the extra police tax if levied upon houses, Cusack 1492, 1493. 1495 1497. Evidence in support of the Westmeath magistrates’ recommendation that the extra police rate and the compensation for injuries be levied by a house tax from all classes of occupiers in the district, instead of by a laud tax ; consideration of sundry objections to this proposal, Rochfort-Boyd 153^-1535. 1589-1600. 1673-1689. 1700, 1701. 1711- Improvement if the police rate could be levied by means of a poll-tax, ib. 1680. 1710- Heason for suggesting that the extra police rate should be levied separately from the county cess, ib. 1699. }JOl. 1707-1709-Expediency of levying at least a moiety of the tax upon houses, ib. 1700. 1711. Strong EXT G A V 235 Report, 1871— continued. Extra Police Tax— continued. . r\ 1 * 4- * /~\ ir\ flip ^vsleni of taxino' particular districts for extra police; gieat , there is^no check given to crime Mooney ,979- hardship and nutation uieieu^, ^ -Improvement if 1992. 2141-2157. 2251 2 • 7 ’ J police instead of the present tax; ' 9 ^ 995 - .Hi, « 4 *. - 78 . - 79 - \ . 1 n f the extra nolice tax, and of the power of Government to fix the area, Approva . t \ - Grounds f or objecting strongly to the police tax on A- Z ^ed 5 distrSs' urea’t hardship involved, Right Rev. Dr. Nultg 2800-2805. 2831 _!!_ Objection to houses only being taxed, or to a poll tax, ib. 2994, 2995. 3003 3007. Return showing the 154 — ^umber^f 1 additional police sent into King’s County, and into Meath and Westmeath, since 1st January 1870, ib. 154. F. Crime. Evictions. Ribbon Society. Farms and Farmers. See Agrarian Crime. Tenantry. Vacant Farms. , ... f T?;uv,nnmen in Westmeath with the Fenian movement, lalbot » of the Habeas Corpus Ac, as regards Fen„ la «er being aitered thereby the pension of the Satisfactory waVVSri F /W 1656-1659 ; Sir J. Stewart- Wood 3473-3480- Habeas Corpus Act, in Westmeath at the time of the Fenian movement, number of Fenians in the county, .A ». 7 - Approve of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and the act,on of the Lord Lieutenant, in reference to Feniamsm, Rogers 3234 3 ^ 4 °• Firing at the Person. Total of fifty-five cases of firing at the person, in Westmeath, stnce 1st January 1848, App. 155 - , ^ ~ 1 thp qllpo-ed outrage in the case of a man named fox, —“«***• *> u s - ^ this having been an agrarian, ou hage ^ Pg,. 3085-3094- 3099-3'0 1 , 3 >» 4 - of obtaining any^Difficulty even by imprisonment, of obtaining evidence from a 3 b 3 VtLf;u"wHn 7 ss“ ofte^utrage the man Fox, iA 31.4-3.30. Particulars of the attempt to murder Cornelius Fox in King’s County in October 1 ,0, F tl, JohT Statement relative to the attempted shooting of John Fox on the .7th March, 1870, in the county of Westmeath, App. 172. French, The Right Honourable ifKolcommon! Evidence.)— Large interests and ^ P +h P nolice and military being quite made- 3530-3534 - Re jP ?f s turb°ances 3 * 35-3539 -Conclusion that Ribbon ism may best quate to suppress the distuibances, 353 o 3539 among the people themselves ; he put down by means of spec,al constables ad( | ted £ < Roscommon on particulars hereon as to the JJo the / esu R bavin- been most satisfactory, 3540-3568. witnp 34 88 - 3508-3511-Opinion that the police are too much of a military force, Right Honourable Colonel French 3558. 3 . As to the discharge of Detective Duties. Uselessness of employing police detectives, as they are readily known, Reade 974-982. 1018-1022. 1072-1081. 1097-1099-Belief that the military organisation of the police does not interfere with their efficiency as detectives, Reade 1018-1024. 1072-1081; Townsend i Sir J. Stewart-Wood 3382,3383. 339 2 - 3399 * 34 1 5^3418- Disadvantage POL R A I 245 Report, 1871— continued. Police —continued. 3 . As to the Discharge of Detective Duties —continued. Disadvantage of the military organisation as entirely destroying the value of the police for detective purposes, Rochfort-Boyd 1770-1772; Mooney 1899-1902. 1927-1929. 2326-2330-Employment of some “ disposable men ” as detectives in the country ; facility with which recognised by the people, Rochfort-Boyd 1773-1776. Suggestions with a view to the pol ce mixing more with the people, as well as for the formation of a local detective force; present practice as to detectives adverted to hereon, Mooney 19 ° 3 ~ 1 934 * 2052-2058. 2326-2330-Testimony lo the efficiency of the constabulary for the detection of crime save as regards Ribbonism ; illustrations of this, Rogers 3106-31 15. 3215-3220. 3226-3228. Doubt as to any special detectives having been sent into witness’s district, Townsend 3372-3378-Improvement in the police within the last year or two as regards detective duties, Sir J. Stewart- Wood 3415-3318-Facilities for the police mixing freely with the people, ib. 3485, 3486. 4 . As to the Introduction of various Improvements. Belief as to the general efficiency of the police, though it would be better if there a larger number, and if their time were less occupied in writing, Talbot 569-579-- Evidence in favour of an amended constitution and system of operation of the police, as one of the chief means for an effectual suppression of Ribbonism, Mooney 1894-1934. 1956, 1957--Want of a more efficient police system generally in the disturbed districts, Right Reverend Dr. Nidty 2779. 2988-2990-Expediency of more vigilant patrolling by the police, ib. 2779. Complaint as to the employment of the police with reference to road nuisances and the dog-tax ; these functions tend to render them unpopular, and to diminish their efficiency, Sir J. Stewart-Wood 3384 ~ 339 i- 3433 - 3449 - 3453‘34 6 3- 34 « 3 -. 35 ° 2 . 3504. 35 ’ 2-3515-Steps taken by witness to reduce the amount of writing, in the way of reports, &c., which the police have to do ; particulars hereon, ib. 3400-3403. 3464-3466. 3506, 3507-Practice as to reports by sub-constables and others, when information is obtained about any outrage; doubt as to these reports causing information to be with¬ held from (he police, ib. 3404-3412-Objection to the employment of the police in the protection of the fisheries, ib. 3444-3446. 3503. See also Arrests. Convictions. Escorts. Evidence. Extra Police Tax. Peace Preservation Act. Search, Right of. Public-IIouses. Steps taken in witness’s district to apply the law as to the closing of public-houses, Talbot 547-551-Explanation as to public-houses not having been closed in witness’s district under the powers of the Peace Preservation Act, Reade 1107- 1109-Good effect of the closing of public-houses after sunset, Barry 1173,1174- Large number of public-houses in witness’s district; instance of withdrawal of a license, ib. 1279-1283. Increased restrictions lecommended as regards public-houses, and the granting of licenses ; instances of abuse in the latter respect, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2779-2790. 2826, 2827-Grounds for the suggestion that the granting of licenses should rest solely with the chairman of the county, ib. 2779-2786. 2827. Good effect produced in witness’s district by the closing of public-houses, under the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act, Rogers 3097. 3229-3231. Publicity of Inquiry. Non-adoption by the Committee of a motion “ that reporters be admitted during the taking of the evidence/’ Rep. v. R. Radcliffe, John. Particulars in connection with an attempt to murder Mr. Radcliffe, magistrate of Meath, on the 23rd April 1870. App. 169. Railway Outrages. Application of Ribbonism to the railway system in Westmeath, Talbot 602-608. Numerous outrages on the Midland Great Western Railway in Westmeath during the last five years ; several also in Meath, Cusack 1302-1333. 1338, 1339. 1378-1390- Instances of the inability of the railway company to obtain men to fill certain vacancies on the line; interference thereby with the efficient working of the railway, ib. 1306-130S. 1311-1315. 133°~1333 -Frequency of threatening letters to employes of the Com¬ pany,^. 1324-1326. Conclusion as to the railway outrages in Westmeath being connected with the Ribbon Society, though this is not so in the case of outrages in Mayo and other counties, Cusack 1328; 1329- 1334 - 134 0 - 1 354 - 1 35 ( L ] 3 ^ 5 -i 39 °- 14 01 -M° 3 - M 7 1 -Steps always 147. L l taken 246 R A I REA Report, 1871— continued. Railway Outrages —continued. taken by the police to bring the offenders 10 ju'tice, but without success, Cusack 1341- 1346-Frequent communication made to Government and to the authorities lelativeto the out rages on the railway, ib. 1358-1362. 1365, 1366.-1410, 1411. Statement of the wages of the labourers on the railway in Westmeath ; absence of complaint, Cusack , 1391-1395. 1409. 1416-1418-Very little outrage in most of the districts through which the railway runs, ib. 1482-1485-Practice of reducing the pay on that portion of the line where an outrage has been committed; good effect produced, ib. 1488-1491. 1494. 1508-1510. See also Anketell, Mr. Royal Canal. Shaw , Mr. Reade , Morris William. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Has been stationed for seven or eight years at Kilbeggan as resident magistrate for the southern portion of Westmeath 798-800 -Similar class of crime in witne-s’s district, as in that formerly under Captain Talbot, there being also the same difficulty in obtaining evidence, 801-803 -Very numerous threatening letters in witness's district; single instance of conviction, there being generally no evidence for a trial, 804-812. 843-848-Particulars relative to three farms now vacant in the district; repeated acts of terrorism and outrage, so that no one dare occupy any of the>e farms, 813-859. Ciicumstances connected with the murder of Dowling in November last, the case having no connection with land: impracticability of obtaining any evidence or any clue to the assassin, 860-874-Impossibility generally of procuring evidence when outrages are committed, 875, 876. 1041-1044-Valuable information obtained from informers as to intended offences, 876-887. 996—1000-Conviction of a person arrested with arms in his hands, the police evidence having been conclusive, 887. 1030-1036-Police escorts now provided for six persons in witness’s district, 888-894. Evidence to the effect that in the year Tnce the passing of the Peace Preservation Act there was more crime in the district than in the previous year, 895-905. 954-970. 1082-1085. 1100-1105-Strict enforcement of the Peace Preservation Act by witness, with but little benefit, 898-912. 1053-1055. 1106-1110-Attempt of the Ribbonmen to make the compensation clause of the Land Act restropective, and to apply it to former evictions, 905. Opinion that the only remedy is the incarceration of the Ribbon leaders, who are well known to witness and the police, 913-919. 1023. 1066-1069. 1132-Report made by witness to Government in favour of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; joint report also made with Captain Talbot, 920-932. 1001-1011-Doubt as to the magistrates’ lives being endangered through attending at the sessions when there are cases against Ribbonmen, 933-937. 941,942. 1012. 1025-1027-Threats conveyed to witness on different occadons, 638-640. 672, 973-Impression that the only Ribbon oath is the swearing-in oath ; doubt as to there being any passwords, 943-950. Total number of licenses for arms in witness’s district ; liability of the holders tc have then’ premises searched, 951-953-Apprehension of Ribbonmen that the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act would be more strict, 954-958-Absence of any trace of the religious element in the Ribbon conspiracy, 971-Uselessness of employing police detectives, as they are readily known, 974-982. 1018—1022. IG72—1081. 1097-1099- Increasing influence and intimidation exercised by the Ribbon Society, 983-988. 1093- 1096. 1127-113I. Deficiency of the Peace Preservation Act as regards the power of search for threaten¬ ing letters, 989-995-Failure of an attempt by witness to trace some threatening letters to their source, 1013, 1014-Explanation relative to a suggestion by Captain Taibot and witness for the systematic watching of one of the Ribbon leaders, 1015-1017 -Dissent from the view that the military drill or training of the police renders them less efficient, 1018-1024. 1072-1011-Advantage of a full attendance of magistrates at the sessions, as in witness’s district, 1025-1030. 1056-1059-Importance of the power of changing the venue, so as to get a properjury, 1037-1040. Organisation of the Ribbon Society adverted to in reference to the practice as to the amount of punishment inflicted in each case, 1045-1052. 1145-1149-Collection of subscriptions for the expenses of the society, 1060-1069--Doubt as 10 any legal men being intimidated from engaging in Ribbon cases, 1070, 1071-Connection between Fenianism and Ribbonism in Westmeath, the character of the latter being altered thereby, 1086-1090. 1147-1149-Belief that Ribbonism exists not only in Westmeath, but in parts of Meath and of King’s County, 1091, 1092. Explanation as to public-houses not having been closed in witness’s district under the powers of the Peace Prevention Act, 1107-1109-Unequal and harsh pressure of the police tax, whilst it has no effect in checking crime, 1111-1126-Police surveillance exeicised over the leaders, the r houses, moreover, being constantly searched but without result, 1 133-1144-Danger to the life of any person coming from Westmeath to give important and detailed evidence to the Committee about Ribbonism, 1150-1155. Rents. REN R I B 247 Report, 1871 — continued. /- --- ■■ - -—--- Rents. Rare instances of rents being raided on large estates in Westmeath, Rochfort-Boyd 1752, 1753-Witness’s rents are about the same as they were about thirty years ago, ib. 1752. Witness has not received any threatening letters, hut five shots were fired at him in March 1870 on account of the intended raising of rents on some land in Westmeath, for which he is trustee, Crofton 1780-1790-Explanation that the intended increase of rents was exceedingly small, and was not more than might fairly be demanded, ib. 1784. 1812. 1814. Large increase of rents within the last twenty-two or twenty-three years ; comment upon ihe increase carried out by Mr. Fetherston Haugh, and atempted to be carried out by Mr. Crofton, Mooney 2090, 2091. 2098-2016. 2212-2215-Excellent payment of rents, ib. 2092-Custom of giving the tenant credit for half a year’s rent, ib. 2093, 2094-Satisfactory payment, of rents in Meath and Westmeath, Seed 2451. Repossession of Holdings. Application of Ribbonism to the case of evictions that occurred many years ago, repossession being sought by relatives of the original holders, Mooney 1964. 2029, 2030. 2095-2097. Resident Landlords. Better condition of the people where the proprietors are resident, Mooney 2138-2140, Ribbon Society: 1. Evidence relative to the Existence of Ribbonism in Westmeath. 2. Organisation of the Ribbon Society. 3 . Form of Oath. 4 . Scope of Action of the Society. 5 . Leaders of the Movement. 6. Employment of Strangers as Assassins. 7 . Question as to the Inefficiency of the present Law for the Su/>press/on of the Evil. 8 . Conclusions of the Committee. 1. Evidence relative to the Existence of Ribbonism hi Westmeath: Information obtained by witness chiefly from informers relative to the constitution and action of the Ribbon Society in Westmeath, Talbot 195, 196. 214-Existence of the society throughout Westmeath, large numbers belonging to it; it is not limited to the county, ib. 231-235. 316-321-Belief that Ribbonism exists not only in Westmeath, but in parts of Meath and of King’s County. Reacle 1091, 1092-Existence of Rib- bonism in Westmeath for many years, the society having greatly increased in influence and in the certainty of its action within the last ten or fifteen years, Rochfurt-Boyd 1513— 1520. 1719-1722. 1750, 1751. Existence beyond all doubt of a secret society in Westmeath. Crofton 1799-1802- Belief as to the existence of the Ribbon conspiracy throughout Westmeath, in parts of Meath and King’s County, Mooney 1835. 1845-1849. 1866-1873-Existence of Rib¬ bonism in Westmeath ever since witness has been in the county, though it has been sometimes dormant; difficulty of accounting for its flourishing there more than in other counties, ib. 1958-1964. 2331-2335. Larger prevalence of Ribbon crime in Westmeath than in any other county, Seed 2354 -Difficulty in accounting for the localisation of Ribbonism in Westmeath, the labour¬ ing class not being worse off than in other counties, and the landlords not being more severe, ib. 2362-2375. 2382-Long period for which Ribbonism has been deeply rooted in Westmeath, so that specially stringent measures are required 10 eradicate it, Julian 2696-2702. Opportunities of witness for ascertaining whether there exists in his diocese a Ribbon confederacy, having passwords, and bound by an oath ; belief that there is no such confederacy now, though there was many years ago, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2727-2731 - Opinion of about two-thirds of the priests in the disturbed districts that no con¬ federacy exists, ib. 2721-Examination upon the question of the existence of Ribbous- raen as a confederacy in Westmeath at the present time ; grounds for the belief that there is now no such confederacy, though witness speaks of Ribbonism in his pastoral as at pre¬ sent prevailing, ib. 2806-2825. 2833-2860. 2888-2936. 3015-3019-Small cliques and separate bodies in which Ribbonism now exists in Westmeath, ib. 2806-2809. 2833-2837. 2890—2936-A regular confederacy could not escape the knowledge of the priests, ib. 2851. 2917-2918. Belief that RibbonisnFexists in Meath, Westmeath and King’s County, Sir J. Stewart- lfood 3425-Knowledge of witness as to the existence of different Ribbon lodges in Westmeath, ib. 3450-3452. 147. L L 2 RIBBON SOCIETY. 248 Report, 1871— continued. Ribbon Society —continued. 2 . Organisation of the Ribbon Society : Evidence relative to the organisation of the society; several classes of officers, termed delegates, parish masters, body masters, Talbot ‘214-230-Belief that the general meetings of the delegates are held in England, ib. 217-219. 317, 318-Strict obligation upon the lowest rank to execute the orders of their officers, and not to prosecute or give evidence, ib. 226-230. 234, 235-Numerously attended meetings of Ribbonmen in Ireland, ib. 513-System of tines and subscriptions by which the society is maintained, these being often paid through teirorism ; payment of the leaders from this suurce, ib. 629-640. 6.15-650-Means of the Hibbon leaders for profiting by their connection with the society, ib. 775-778. Organisation of the Ribbon Society adverted <0 in reference to the practice as to the amount of punishment inflicted in each case, Reade 1045-1052. 1145-1149-Collec¬ tion of subscriptions for the expenses of the society, ib. 1060-1069-The heads never commit an outrage, Rochfort-Boyd 1636. Reason for concluding that there is a central Ribbon authority, though where it is situated witness has no idea, Mooney 1849-1853-Very perfect organisation of the Ribbon system at the present lime, Seed 2355. 2364, 2365-Document produced containing a description of the Ribbon organisation; authenticity of this paper, ib. 2364, 2365. 2422-2428. Memorandum by Mr. Seed, dated 2nd March 1871, containing information relative to the constitution and mode of operation of the Hibbon Society, App. 162, 163-Five distinct orders in the society ; how elected, ib. 162, 163-System of signs and pass¬ words, these being generally changed every quarter, ib. 163. 3 . Form of Oath : Particulars as to an illegal meeting having been surprised by the police at a house in Mullingar in May 1869, and a certain form of oath having been found ; doubt as to this having been a Ribbon meeting, Talbot 197-213-Arrest of one man on the foregoing- occasion, though he was not committed foi trial, ib. 205-211-Possession by a witness of a c> py of a Ribbon oath, obtained by the police some years ago, ib. 396-407.- Impression that the form 0f oath seized at a house in Mullingar is not the one now in use by Ribbonmen, ib. 458-461. Impression that the only Ribbon oath is the swearing-in oath ; doubt as to there being any passwords, Reade 943-970-Production to the Committee of a copy of a Ribbon oath; way in which procured, Rochfort-Boyd 1627-1632. 1668-1672-Impression that there have been various forms of oath used by the society, ib. 1696. 1716-1718. Witness submits a copy cf ihe Ribbon oath ; how procured. Seed 2365. 2422-2428 •-Statement of the circumstances under which a Ribbon document containing a form of oath was found by the police in a public-house in Mullingar ; this paper read, Julian 2686-2691. 4 . Scope of Action of the Society : Other than agrarian outrages committed by the Ribbon Society, Talbot 468-470- Origin of the society in the evictions from land, its operation being now much extended, ib. 592-594. 609-614-More regular system of the society in former years, when dis¬ putes about land weie alone dealt with, ib. 609-614. 763-765. Absence of any trace of the religions element in the Ribbon conspiracy, Reade 971 —-Extended scope of the operations of the Ribbon Society within the last few years; its original object having been to prevent landlords from ejecting their tenants or raising their rents, Mooney 1836-1841. 1850. 1874-1880. 2188, 2189. 2300, 2301.-Statement as to Ribbonism not being a political society, nor a Roman Catholic society, ib. 2218- 2222. 2266-2269. Original object of the Ribbon system to effect the extinction of Protestantism, Seed 2362-Several outrages lately not connected with land, the scope of Ribbon action having been largely extended, Julian 2529. 2541-2,545-Action of the illegal con¬ federation in Westmeath with reference chiefly or entirely to land, it being directed alike against landlord, occupier, and lubouier, Rogers 3064,3065. 3070-3078. 5 . Leaders of the Movement: lull knowledge of the magistrates and police as to the leaders of the Ribbon Society 7^60*278,279.335-337; Reade 9,4-918. 1066-1069; Rochfort-Boyd 1540-1542. G. Employment of Strangers as Assassins: Staten ent as <0 the assassins being well known to many, thougli they generally come from a neighbouring fonnty, Talbot 115-110. 408-413.--Employment of strangers for committing Ribbon outrages, money being subscribed for the purpose, Rochfort-Bovd 1 . 573 , 1574 * “ R I B ROC 249 Report, 1871— continued. Ribbos Society— continued. 7 . Question as to the Inefficiency of the present Lo w for the Suppression of the Evil: Necessity of further coercive measures as regards Ribbonism, the Peace Preservation .Act having failed to suppress the ev'l, Talbot 274—276. 426-438 ; Barry 1204. 1210, 1211; Julian 2476-2478. 2502. 2702-Boast made by Ribhonmen as to the ineffi¬ ciency of the law, Tcilbut 479. 681-684-Question considered whether the present law might not. have been more effectually applied by surprising Ribbonmen at their meetings, ib. 537-546. Expectation that by an efficient and vigorous administration of the existing law, Rib- bonism will soon be extinguished, Seed 2355. 2403-2414-Sundry suggestions for the suppression of agrarian outrages in Meath, Westmeath, and King’s County; belief as to the sufficiency of these measures, without any suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, to which witness strongly objects, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2778, 2779. 2826, 2827. 2956- 2960. 2987-2992. 8. Conclusions of the Committee: Existence, for a considerable length of time, of the Ribbon society in Westmeath, and in parts of Meath and King’s County, Rep. iii-Increased power and influence of the society within the last three years, ib. -Perpetration of murders and other crimes owing to the prevalence of the society, ib. -Origination of the society in a desire to interfere unlawfully in matters relating to the tenure of land, ib. Conclusion as to the Ribbon society having adherents and supporters among the farming classes, its ranks being recruited chiefly from farm servants and daily labourers, Rep. iii-Control of the society by a few individuals who are alleged to be known to the local authorities as its leaders, ib. -Failure of the local authorities to make amen¬ able to justice the perpetrators of crimes, or any of the leaders or organisers of the Ribbon Society, ib. iv. See also Agrarian Crime. Clergy. Convictions. Duffy, Captain. Evi¬ dence. Eenianism. Intimidation and Terrorism. Juries. King's County. Labouring Classes. Land Act. Landlords. Longford. Louth. Ma¬ gistrates.. Alayo. Murders. Peace Preservation Act. Police. Rail¬ way Outrages. Special Commission. Special Constables. Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act. Tenantry. Threatening Letters. Vacant Farms. Vigilance Committee. Rochfort-Boyd, (Jeorge Augustus. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Represents, to some extent, the views of the grand jury of Westmeath upon the subject before the Com¬ mittee, 1511, 1512-Existence of Ribbonism in Westmeath for many years, the society having greatly increased in influence and in the certainty of its action within the last ten or fifteen years, 1513-1520. 1719-1722. 1750, 1751-Cessation of outrage at the time of the Peace Preservation Bill, it having been believed that power would be given for a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 1521, 1522. 1620-1622. Large meeting of Westmeath magistrates on the 24th March 1869, and resolutions then passed as to the remedial measures desirable in view of the disturbed state of the county, 1522-1530-Evidence in support of the magistrates’ recommendation that the extra police rate and the compensation for injuries be levied by a house tax from all classes of occupiers in the district, instead of by a land tax ; consideration of sundry objections to this proposal, 1531-1535. 1589-1600. 1673-1689. 1700,1701. 1711- Ruinous pressure of the present tax, 1531-1535 -Objection in respect of the area over which the compensation is levied, 1532. 1535. 1712-1715. Advantage of the power of arresting persons out at night under suspicious circum¬ stances, 1538-Opinion that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act is the only effectual remedy, 1539-Full knowledge of the magistrates and police as to the leaders of the Ribbon society, 1540-1542-Reasons which render it practically impossible to obtain evidence for prosecution of Ribbon outrages, especially when perpetrated by order of the society, 1543“ 1 545' >57 1-1 575- Grounds for the conclusion that power should be laken to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in proclaimed districts for two years, and that by the arrest and imprison¬ ment of the Ribbon leaders information may be obtained which will result in convictions and in the breaking up of the conspiracy, 1546-1552. 1558. 1601-1604. 1609-1626. 1633- 1637. 1656-1666-Instance of conviction of a person arrested at night with arms in his hands; doubt as to any real Ribbon outrage in this case, 1553 "! 556 . 1738-1745 --Statement to the effect that the wages of agricultural labourers in Westmeath are from 9 s. to 10 j>. a week, and that labourers are not in the wretched condition that has been represented, 1558-1567. 1638-1646. 1690-1695. Denial that there have been any wholesale evictions or clearances in Westmeath, 1568- 1570. 1578-1582-Employment of strangers for committing Ribbon ouirages, money being subscribed for the purpose, 1573, 1574-Wide-spread intimidation caused by 147. l l 3 the 250 ROC R O G Repoit, 1871— continued. liochfoi t-Boyd, George Augustus. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. the Ribbon Society, all rights of employers and of property being gone, 1575, 1570- Great trepidation of jurors and witnesses in agrarian cases, 1577. 1697- Doubt as to any of the magistrates who recommended strong repressive measures in 1869 having since been attacked or injured in any way, 1583-1585. Satisfactory relations on the whole between the resident magistrates and the unpaid magistrates, 1586-1588-Expectation that the imprisonment of the Ribbon leaders, who are few in number, would be fatal to the organisation, 1603, 1604. 1609-16-26. 1633— 1637-Statement ns to representations having been made to Government by individual magistrates in favour of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 1605-1608. 1723-1737. 1759-1765-Production to the Committee of a copy of a Ribbon oath ; way in winch procured, 1627-1632. 1668-1672. Benefit expected from the influence of the clergy, provided the influence of the Ribbon leaders were withdrawn by imprisonment, 1647-1651. 1673. Advantage of changing the venue in Ribbon trials, 1652, 1653. 1702-Belief that “ black mail ” is not paid to Ribbonmen by any landlords, 1654, l@55-Satisfactory manner in which the arrest of Fenians was carried out under the suspension of the Habeas C orpus Act, 1656-1659-Objection to suspension for a shorter term than two years, 1660-1666-Improvement if the police rate could be levied by means of a poll-tax, 1689. 1710-Impression that there have been various forms ofoath used by the Ribbon Society, 1696. 1716-1718. Reason for suggesting that the extra police rate should be levied separately from the county cess, 1699. 1709* 1707-1709-Expediency of levying at least a moiety of the police-tax upon houses, 1700. 1711-Comment upon the verdict ofacquittal in Supple’s case, 1702-1706-.Numerous instances of Ribbon murders in Westmeath, without auy conviction of' ihe offenders, 1746-1749-Rare instances of rents being raised on large estates, 1752, 1753—-Value of land in the county; at present it is not marketable, 1 754-1758. 1766. Inadequacy of the police to prevent armed men going about at night, 176S, 1769- Great efficiency of the police as a military force, whilst the condact of the men is most excellent, 1 770. 1 772-Disadvantage of the military organiz it on, as entirely destroying the va'ue of the police force for detective purposes, 1770-1772-Employment of some the award of compensation to Moran and his wife, though the former kept back information as to his assailants, 3096. 3102, 3103.3245-3250- Absence of agrarian crime in witness’s district duiing the last six weeks, 3104, 3105 -Testimony to the efficiency of the cons'abulary for the detection of crime, save as regards Ribbonism ; illustrations of this, 3. 1 06-3115. 3215-3220. 3226-3228. Recommendation that the Lord Lieutenant be empowered, upon due representation beiruj made by the magistrates, to imprison persons suspected of agrarian offences for such time as may be deemed necessary for obtaining evidence against them, 3116-3124. 3131 — 3137 * 3183-3188. 3214. 3221-3225-Difficulty, even by imprisonment, of obtaining evidence from any o' the numerous witnesses of the outrages upon the man Fox, 3124- 3130-Great discretion and careful inquiry necessary in the event of the Lord Lieu¬ tenant being empowered to arrest any well-known Ribbon leaders, by a suspension of the Habeas Corpus A« t, 3131-3137. 3214. 3221-3225. Explanation that in reporting any cases of agrarian outrage to the Government in Dublin, witness has not considered it his duty to make suggestions for an amendment of existing legislation, 3138-3143 3191-3193- Cordial co-operation of the local unpaid magistrates with witness, 3:44—314S-Entire absence of any friendly relations between any of the local magistrates and the Ribbon Society, 3149-3152. Doubt as to the Ribbon conspiracy existing in King’s County, though persons have a thorough understanding with an illegal combination in Westmeath, 3153-3156- Occurrence of agrarian outrages in Tipperary, though witness cannot say they are attri¬ butable to Ribbonism, 3157-3161-Instances of information or reports concerning outrages which never occurred ; facility of detecting these misrepresentations, 3166— 3182. 3241-3243- Belief as to the same person having written threatening letters for the county of Westmeath, as well as for King’s County, 3194-3199. Doubt as to much benefit resulting from an increased appointment of stipendiary magistrates in the disturbed districts, 3200-3214-Conclusion that a discretion in ihe Lord Lieutenant as to the arrest of agrarian offenders would be exercised without any serious abuse arising, 3221-3225. 3234-3240-Good effect of the system of compensa¬ tion to persons injured; instance of this, 3244-Facility of defining that portion of witness’s district to which exceptional measures of repression might be applied, 3251- 3256. Roman Catholic Clergy. See Clergy. Roscommon . See Special Constables. Royal Canal. Statement as to the labourers on the Royal Cat al having for many years had the appointments to themselves, no outrage having ever been committed ; danger of any interference with this mode of appointment, Cusack 1347 -1 353 - 1412-1415. ’435 -1 448 -Doubt as to the system of appointment on the canal being connected with the Rib¬ bon conspiracy, ib. 1398-1400. 1470-1474. S. Search, Right of. Expediency of increased facilities of search being given to the police. Seed 2355.- See also Threatening Letters. Secret Societies. Great evil of secret societies in Ireland, though not so bad as they have been in other countries, Right Rev. Dr. Nulty 2885-2887.- See also Ribbon Society. Seed , Stephen. (Analysis of his Evidence,)—Long experience of witness as Crown solici¬ tor; for the last twenty-six years he ha? acted for Meath and Kildare, and was at one time Crown solicitor for Westmeath, 2336-2343-Great improvement in the condition of Meath as to agrarian ciime, since the Special Commission of June 1870; 2344-2347 --Tranquil state of that portion of Meath not adjoining Westmeath, whilst the districts bordering on the latter county are affected by the Ribbon conspiracy, 2348, 2349. Infinitely less crime in Westmeath at the present time than there was thirty or forty years ago, 2350-2353. 2355, 2356. 2409, 2410-Larger prevalence of Ribbon crime in Westmeath than in any other county, 2354. Memorandum prepared by witness for the Committee, showing in detail the steps taken by Government for the suppression of crime in Meath, and containing sundry suggestions for the better prevention and punishment of Libbon outrages in Meath and Westmeath, 2355 . Suggested suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in disturbed distiicts; doubt, how¬ ever, as to the expediency or necessity of putting the suspension in force, 2355. 2434- 2444-Extremely defective character of the present jury system, the panels comprising men utterly fit to act as jurors; impioper conduct of some sub-sheriffs in forming the 147. l l 4 panels, 252 SEE S TE Report, 1871— continued. Seed, Stephen. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. panels, 2355. 2393-2403. 2434-Advantage of the high sheriff himself forming the panel, 2355-Suggestion on the subject of* changing the venue, ih. -Expediency of increased facilities of search being given to the police, ib. Very perfect organisation of the Ribbon system at the present time, 2355. 2364, 2365 -Expectation that by an efficient and vigorous administration of the existing law, Ribbonism will soon be extinguished, 2355. 2403-2414-Impracticability of obtaining evidence in Ribbon cases, owing to the terror of the people, 2357-2360. 2376-2381. 2437-2440-Very little serious crime in Ireland generally at the present time, 2361 -Difficulty in accounting for the localisation of Ribbonism in Westmeath, the labour- ins; class not being: worse off than in other counties, and the landlords not being; more severe, 2362-2375. 2382. Document produced containing a description of the Ribbon organisation; authenticity of this paper, 2364, 2365. 2422-2428-Copy of the Ribbon oath; how procuied ; 2365. 2422-2428. Instance in Meath of a severe landlord, who has ejected some tenants for non-payment of rent; necessity of his having constant police protection, 2369-2374. 2383-2387- Approval of a Special Commission for Westmeath; difficulty in obtaining sufficient evi¬ dence for prosecutions, 2376-2381. 2411-2416-Sympathy of the people with any man evicted for non-payment of rent; instance of murder in Meath about a year ago for such eviction, 2387-2392-Improved administration of justice by a better jury panel; illustration of this, 2395-2397. 2403. 2441, 2442. Reference to certain parishes in Meath in which several families are said to be under notice to quit, 2417-2421. 2431-2433-Impoverished condition of some of the tenants evicted in Meath, 2445-2447-Importance of an amelioration of the houses of the labouring population, 2448-2450-Satisfactory payment of rents in Meath and West¬ meath, 2451-Gieat anxiety of the Roman Catholic clergy to put a stop to Ribbonism, 2452-2454. Seed, Mr. Paper prepared by Mr. Seed, dated 11th February 1871, showing that serious crime has greatly diminished throughout Ireland, and that the means taken by Govern¬ ment for its suppression have been effectual, App. 151, 152, Memorandum by Mr. Seed, dated 2nd March 1871, containing information relative to the constitution and mode of operation of the Ribbon Society, App. 162, 163. Shaw, Air. Several threatening letters received by Mr. Shaw, the late station-master at Trim, Cusack 1318-1320-Particulars relative to the case of Mr. Shaw, and the dan¬ ger which threatened him ; recent letter from the Crown solicitor, in consequence of which Mr. Shaw has been removed from Trim, ib. 1367-1378. 1407, 1408. 1457-1469. Special Commission. Approval of a Special Commission for Westmeath; difficulty in ob~ taining sufficient evidence for prosecutions. Seed 2376-2381. 2411-2416. Special Constables. Conclusion that Ribbonism in Westmeath may best be put down by means of special constables, sworn in from among the people themselves; particulars hereon as to the system of special constables adopted in Roscommon on witness’s recom¬ mendation in 1848, the result having been most satisfactory, Right Honourable Colonel French 3540 “35^8. Special Juries. Objection to special juries for the trial of agrarian cases, Talbot 487,488. Stew art-Wood, Sir John , k.c.b. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Has been at the head of the constabury in Ireland for nearly six years; had previously been deputy inspector-general for about five years, 3377-3381. 3492-3497-Denial that the military organisation of the police interferes with their efficiency as detectives ; modifications introduced by witness on this score, 3382, 33S3. 3392-3399. 3415-3418. 3438-344°* 3487* 3488. 3508-3511- Complaint as to the employment of the police with reference to road nuisances and the dog tax; these functions tend to render them unpopular, and to diminish their efficiency, 3384 - 3391 - 3433 - 3449 - 3453 ~ 3463 - 3483 - 3502. 3504. 3512-3515. Steps taken by witness to reduce the amount of writing, in the way of reports, &c., which the police have to do; particulars hereon, 3400-3403. 3464-3466. 3506, 3507- Practice as to reports by sub-constables and others when information is obtained about any outrage ; doubt as to these reports causing information to be withheld from the police, 3404-3412-Terror caused by Ribbonism, so that it is almost impossible to obtain evi¬ dence, whilstdetecti.es are readily found out, 3413, 3414.3487. Impiovement in the police within the last year or two as regards detective duties, 3415- 3418 -Inability of the police to cope with the Ribbon organisation, 3419-3424- Belief that Ribbonism exists only in Meath, Westmeath, and King’s County, 3425- Impression that there are now about 400 police in Westmeath, and about the same num¬ ber in Meath, 3426-3429. Strong reports made by witness to Government in favour of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 343°~3432. 3516-3521. 3527-3529-Objection to the employment of the S T E s u s 253 Report, 1871— continued. Stewart-Wood, Sir John, k.C.b. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. police in the protection of the fisheries, 3444-3446-Knowledge of witness as to the, existence of different Ribbon lodges in Westmeath, 3450-3452-Occasional visits of witness to the county for the purpose of inspection, 3467-3472. 3498-3501. Satisfactory way in which Fenian arrests were made under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 3473-3480-Excellent effect anticipated from a suspension of the Act as regards Eibbonisrn, 3481, 3482--Circumstance of witness having never been in Ireland til! his appointment to the police in i860; 3489-3495-Beneficial operation of the Peace Preservation Act in Meath and King’s Countv, though it has failed in Westmeath, 3521 - 3526 . Supple, —. Comment upon the verdict of acquittal in Supple’s case, Rochfort-Boyd 1702- 1706-Acquittal in Supple’s case adverted to; witness does not find much fault with this decision, Julian 2525-2528. 2684, 2685. Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act: Grounds for the opinion that a local suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would ope¬ rate effectually in the suppression of the Ribbon Society, Talbot 270-287, 314, 315. 337— 342-—Satisfactory manner in which the arrest of Fenians was carried out under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, Talbot 270. 339. 511, 5I2, 585. 770-783. 787 — 795; Rochfort-Boyd 1659-1659; Rogers 3234-3240; Sir J. Steicart-Wood 3473- 3480 -Evidence as to the reports or representations made to the Government upon the question of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, Talbot 275. 290-315; Reade 920- ■932. iooi-ioii ; Barry 1212-1216; Rochfort-Boyd 1605-1608. 1723-1737. 1759-1765- Julian 2504-2509. 2707-2712; Sir J. Stewart-Wood 3430-3432. 3516-3521.3527- 35 - 9 * Opinion that the only remedy is the arrest and incarceration of the Ribbon leaders, who are well known to the police and magistrates, Talbot 278,279.335-337 ; Reade g 13- 919. 1023. 1066-1069. 1132; Cusack 1396, 1397; Rochfort-Boyd 1540-1542- Advantage, under a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, of letting those taken up go out on bail, Talbot 483-485-Evidence in further support of the partial suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act with reference directly to Ribbonism in Westmeath, ib. 500-512. 525. 580-587, 769-771. 779-796-Expediency of limiting a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act to Westmeath, Barry 1236. 1246-1248-Concurrence in the view that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act is the only effectual remedy, Cusack 1396, 1397; Rochfort-Boyd 1539. Grounds for the conclusion that power should be taken to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in proclaimed districts for two years, and that by the arrest and imprisonment of the Ribbon leaders information may be obtained which will result in convictions and in the breaking up of the conspiracy, Rochfort-Boycl 1540-1552. 1558. 1601-1604. 1609- 1626. 1633-1637. 1656-1666——Expectation that the impiisonment of the Ribbon leaders, who are few in number, would be fatal to the organisation, ib. 1603, 1604. 1609- 1626. 1633-1637-Objection to suspension for a shorter time than two years, ib. 1660-1666. Suggestion that the Habeas Corpus Act be suspended in tlie disturbed districts, and that concurrently therewith steps be taken to send the people and tb.eir families to America, Crofton 1803-1807. 1819-1821-Ill effect anticipated on the release of men imprisoned for a time under a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, ib. 1820. 1822. Approval of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, provided it can be clcaily shown wlvo are the Ribbon leaders to be arrested, Mooney 1949-1956. 2228-2235. 2296-2299. 2316-2321-Feeling of magistrates in favour of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; doubt as to the feeling of the people at large, ib 2223-2237-Instance of mis¬ taken or questionable arrest when the Act was suspended during the Fenian movement ; ■opinion that there would be greater liability to mistake in the case of Ribbonism, ib. 2228-2233. 2316-2321. Suggested suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in disturbed districts; doubt, how¬ ever, as to the expediency or necessity of putting the suspension in force, Seed 2355. 2434-2444-Conclusion that most coercive measures are necessary in Westmeath, and that a local suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would have a very beneficial effect, Julian 2479-2482. 2495-2499. 2546-2550. 2554-2562-Less certainty in applying suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act to Ribbonism than to Fenianism, ib. 2495, 2496. 2679-2683. Recommendation that the Lord Lieutenant be empowered, upon due representation being made by the magistrates, to imprison persons suspected of agraiian offences lor such time as may be deemed necessary for obtaining evidence against them, Royers 3116-3124. 3131-3137. 3183-3188. 3214. 3221-3225-Great discretion and careful inquiry necessary in the event of the Lord Lieutenant being empowered to arrest any 147. M M well-known 254 s u s T A L Report, 1871— continued. Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act —continued. well-known Ribbon leaders, by a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, Rogers 3131-3137. 3214. 3221-3225-Conclusion that a discretion in the Lord Lieutenant as to the arrest of agrarian offenders would be exercised without any serious abuse arising, ib. 3221-3225. 3234-3240-Excellent effect anticipated from a suspension of the Act as regards Rib- bonism, Sir J. Steivart- Wood 3481, 3482. Witness strongly objects to a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and suggests various other remedies for a suppression of agrarian crime in the disturbed districts, Right Rev. Dr. Nultg 2778, 2779. 2826, 2827. 2956-2960. 2987-2992-Belief as to the ill-feeling to be executed in Westmeath by a suspension of the Act, ib. 2955-2960. 3008-Several grounds for objecting to a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, Right Honourable Colonel French 3557, 3558. See also Fenianism. Government. T. Talbot, Captain George .—(Analysis of his Evidence). Experience of witness, as a resident magistrate, in the counties of Mayo, Galway, and Westmeath; he was for eight years in the latter county, up to last October, 1-4-Special character of the crime in West¬ meath as compared with that in other parts of Ireland, 5-7-Great terrorism in the county, it being difficult to get anybody to prosecute, and almost impossible to obtain evidence ; that is, in all cases except larceny, 7-14. Particulars relative to the murder of a man named Connor, in Westmeath, about the year 1863, the same being attributable to the action of the Ribbon Society; impracti¬ cability of procuring evidence, 15-19. 34-Statement in regard to the same persons having always attended at the hearing of agrarian cases in the courts, the conclusion being that they were there on behalf of the Ribbon Society, 20-31. 354-Information re¬ specting the murder of a man named Walsh in 1864, the outrage having been of an agrarian character; failure of justice in this case through one of two approvers having absconded, 32-58-Conclusion that the murderers in the foregoing case came from a neighbouring county, and were set in motion by the Ribbon Society, 50. Evidence relative to two attacks upon some farmers of the name of Gavan, in con¬ nection with the holding of certain land ; difficulty experienced in obtaining information, so that there was no case to go to trial, 59-72-Extra police placed and charged for some time upon the townlands around the locality where the Gavans lived, 69-75- Arrangements introduced by witness in 1869 for an effective system of police patrol throughout the di'turbed districts, 76-82. Restrictions placed by witness upon the issue of licenses for arms, when the county was proclaimed, 83. 364. 367-372-Constant searches made for arms, with very trifling success, 84, 85. 373, 374-Great difficulty in procuring evidence in the matter of the attack upon Mr. Hornidge in 1866, so that some persons arrested were not com¬ mitted for trial, 86-91-Occurrence of murders or attempts to murder in every year, the evil having reached its worst in 1868, 1869, and 1870; 92, 93. Circumstances connected with the murder of Mr. Fetheraton Haugh in 186S, for having given notice to raise the rent of one of his tenants, 93, 94. 344-348-Extreme reluctance evinced by the people to show any sympathy or to give any evidence in the foregoing case, though witness is convinced the assassins were known to many, 94-114. 346-348-Arrest of several men for the murder, though it was necessary to discharge them for want of evidence, 101-107. Belief that the actual assassin on these occasions is always well known to the people, though he is generally brought from a neighbouring county, 115-119-Details relative to the murder of Mr. Anketell, the station-master ai Mullingar; combination of reasons for the deed, 120-132——Arrest of two men for the murder, there having been much circumstantial evidence ; necessity eventually of discharging them without trial, 133- 139 - . Failure to convict in any case of homicide or serious outrage whilst witness was in the county, 141-Conviction in one case of writing a threatening letter, 141. 154-156- Reference to the visit of an armed party to the house of a man named Cassidy, as die only case in which there was evidence enough fora trial; acquittal in this case 142-153 -Frequency of outrages between October and April, 157-159-Large discharge of labourers on Mr. Fetherston Hangh’s estate, in consequence of the outrages, 159, 160. Report to the police in all cases of visits by armed parties, 161-163*-Large propor¬ tion of threatening letters not reported, 161-Good effect of the Peace Preservation Act for some time after its passing, 164. 173-187-Departureof several bad characters from the district in anticipation of the Act, 165-168-Re-commencement of outrages when witness left the county in October, 169-172. 193, 194. Explanation as the steps taken by witntss and the police in carrying out the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act, for the arrest of persons-out one hour after sunset under suspicious TALBOT. 2 55 Report, 1871— continued. Talbot, Captain George. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. suspicious circumstance?, 173-191. 375-379 -Statement as to no instance having occurred of witness summoning anyone capable of giving evidence, 192-194. 380, 381. Information obtained by witness, chiefly from informers, relative to the constitution and action of the Ribbon Society in Westmeath, 195, 196. 214-Particulars as to an illegal meeting having been surprised by the police at Mullingar in May 1869, and a certain form of oath having been found ; doubt as to this having been a Ribbon meeting, 197-213-Arrest of one man on the foregoing occasion, though he was not committed for trial, 205-211-Association of Ribbonmen in Westmeath with the Fenian move¬ ment, 212. Evidence relative to the organisation of the Socie'y ; several classes of officers, termed delegates, parish masters, and body masters, 214-230-Belief that the general meetings of the delegates are held in England, 217-219. 317, 318-Strict obligation upon the lowest rank to execute the orders of their officers, and not to prosecute or live evidence, 226-230. 234,235-Extension of the Society throughout Westmeath, large numbers belonging to it; it is not limited to the county, 231-235. 316-321-Doubt as to theie having been Ribbonism in Mayo or Galway, 236-239. 322-329-«-Very little Ribbonism in Louth, 240-244. Imposition of an extra police-tax upon certain townlands on the recommendation of witness in 1865-1866; conclusions advetse to such tax as falling mainly on the innocent, and as failing to prevent crime or to produce evidence, 245-269. 414-417-Advantage of the tax as a means of increasing the police force for patrols, &. c., 255. 382-Grounds for the opinion that a local suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would operate effectually in the suppression of the Ribbon Society, 270-287. 314, 315. 337-342- Belief of the people that the Peace Preservation Act would be much more stringent than it really is, 274. Inadequacy of the Peace Preservation Act, so that other measures are necessary, 274- 276. 426-438-Statement as to witness having made constant reports to the Govern¬ ment relative to crime and outrages, and as to his having more than once recommended the partial and local suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 275. 290-315 Circum¬ stance of the leaders of the Ribbon Society being well known to the police, 278,279. 335-337 Recommendation that it be not necessary to prove “ suspicious circum¬ stances” in order to arrest persons found out at night; less power to the magistrates thereby than to the Lord Lieutenant by a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 288. 289. 377 " 37 8 - 433-438. Sympathy on the part of the lower orders with the offenders, whilst there is a very general terrorism, so that to obtain evidence is impossible, 330-334-Frequency of threatening letters before outrages are committed, 343.-Impracticability of a vigilance committee being formed in the county, 349-Exception taken to certain statements bv Bishop Nulty as to the relations existing between “exterminating landlordism ” and Ribbonism, 350-353-Belief that there have been no evictions save for non-payment of rent; some rents have, however, been raised, 351. 423-425. Very bad juries sometimes, so that the difficulty of conviction is increased, 356-360 -Expediency of confining a police tax to the criminal districts, 361, 362. 383- Very good arms seized upon one occasion, 363-Improvement if the Arms Act weie enforced more strictly, 366-Agrarian chaiacter of the- majority of the outrages; reference hereon to the poverty of the labouring population, 3^4-392-Possession by witness of a copy of a Ribbon oath obtained by the police some years ago, 396.407. Further statement as to the assassins being well known to many though they generally come from a neighbouring county, 408-413-Occurrence of outrages chiefly in the winter time, when the lam s are being settled, 418, 419-Occurrence of many outrages through the non-adoption of con-acre, 420, 421--Few large holders connected with the Ribbon Society, 422-Reference to the Habitual Criminals Act as empowering the imprisonment of persons lurking in the street for felonious purposes, 438. Second Examination.] Further reference to the Habitual Criminals Act as applying only to persons previously convicted, 439-441-Great relief to the large majority of the people of Westmeath if the terrorism of the Ribbon society were removed ; similar feeling of many Ribbonmen themselves, 442-447. 489-492- Difficulty as regards juries further adverted to, there being nearly a certainty of one or two jurymen sympathising with the prisoner, 448-454. 462-465. 482. 772, 773-Probable advantage if a change of venue were resorted to, 451-454. 483-Statement that poverty has nothing to do with the agrarian outrages, 455-457. Impression that the form of oath seized at a house in Mullingar is not the one now in use by Ribbonmen, 458-461-Increased facilities of obtaining evidence by means of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 466, 467. 480, 481-Other than agrarian outrages committed by the Ribbon Society, 468-470-Probability of lees crime if the 147. N N agricultural Report, 1871— continued. Talbot, Captain George. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. agricultural labourers were better off as regards 1 heir dwellings and their wages, 471-478 -Boast made by Ribbonmen as to the inefficacy of the law, 479. 681-684-Advan¬ tage, under a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, of letting those taken up go out on bail, 483-485-Objection to a special jury, 487, 488. Very little effect of a police-tax as compared with the dread of the Ribbon Society, 493, 494-Improvement if, under the Peace Preservation Act, strangers lurking about at any time were liable to be arrested, 465-499-Evidence in further support of the partial suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, with reference directly to Ribbonism in Westmeath, 500-512.595-Satisfactory manner in which the suspension of the Act was applied in the county during the Fenian movement, 511, 512. 585. 779-783. 79 2_ 795 ' Numerously attended meetings of Ribbonmen in Ireland, 513-Meetings of delegates in England further adverted to, 513-516-Exceptional instances of witness granting a license for arms to a holder of less than forty acres, 517-520-Patrol of the police in plain clothes in some districts; they are, however, well known, 521,522-Present state of Westmeath adverted to in count ction with the provision of escorts for certain magistrates and others, 523, 524. 619-628. Further reference to the advantage, as regards juries, of moving the venue, 527-536. 657-664-Question considered whether the present law might not have been more effectually applied by surprising Ribbonmen at their meetings, 537-546- Steps taken in witness’s district to apply the law as to the closing of public-houses, 547-551-Inade¬ quacy of the power, under the 13th Section of the Peace Preservation Act, as to the imprisonment ol persons refusing to give evidence; the leaders cannot be reached by this means, 552-563. 766-768. Difficulty in carrying out successful searches of houses for the discovery of threatening letters, 564-568. 599-601-Belief as to the efficiency of the police, though it would be better if there w ere a larger number, and if their time were less occupied in writing, 569- 579-Further conclusions in favour of a local and temporary suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, 580-587. 769-771. 779-796-Belief as to the connection between Fem inism and Ribbonism in Westmeath, 585. 721-724. Excellent landlords in Westmeath, 588-Impression as to there having been some large clearances in Meath owing to a consolidation of farms, 588-591-Origin of the Ribbon Society in the evictions from land, its operation being now much extended, 592- 594. 609-614-Good effect of the Land Bill, though not sufficient to check Ribbonism, 595-597 -Application of Ribbonism to the railway system in Westmeath, 602-608- More regular system of the Ribbon Society in former years, when disputes about land were alor.e dealt with, 609-614. 763-765* Discontent caused by the Extra Police Force Act, whilst it has not effected any re¬ pression of crime, 615-618. 725-728-Advantage of the Act, in so far as it increases the police patrols, 616. 685, 686-System of fines and subscriptions by which the Ribbon Society is maintained, these being often paid through terrorism; payment of the leaders from tins source, 629-640. 645-650-Danger to ti e lives of certain persons in Westmeath if they gave information before the Committee, 641-644. Belief that none of ihe local gentry pay am thing to the Ribbon Society by way of protection, 650,651-Inability of gentlemen to provide against their own servants being Ribbonmen, 651, 652-Statement as to the very limited attendance of the local magis¬ trates at the Petty Sessions in Westmeath, and as to the execution of the law having in consequence fallen chiefly on witness, 653-655. 705, 706. 729-738. 747-761-Acquittal in the case of the attack on Cassidy’s house further adverted to, 656. 699-701-Further consideration of the question of inefficiency of the 23rd Section of the Peace Preservation Act as to the arrest of persons out late under suspicious circumstances, 665-676. 766- ^53-Occurrence of most of the outrages at night, 677. Circumstance of witness having never required an escort; belief that on one occasion the life of a stipendiary magistrate was in danger, 679, 680. 739, 740-Reluctance of witness to make use of the military at Mullingar for police purposes, 687-691-Ob¬ stacles to securing a conviction in the case of the illegal oath found in a public-house in Mullingar a lew years ago, 692-699. Frequent compulsion upon those having arms to deliver them up for Ribbon outrages, 703-Continued operation of the Society in Westmeath, owing chiefly to the terrorism exercised by a few daring leaders, 704.715-720-Statement as to there being no Ribbonism in Mayo or other counties, though there may be agrarian crime, 707-724. 762 -System of direct supervision of Ribbon leaders, suggested at one time by witness; icason f >r its non-adoption, 741-744. Further statement that witness is not aware of any eviction in Westmeath save for non¬ payment of rent, 774-Means of the Ribbon leaders for profiting by their connection with the Society, 775-778-Instance of conviction in the case of some men encountered at night with arms in their hands, one of whom was arrested, 797. Tenantry. TEN V I S 2.57 Report, 1871 — continued. Tenantry. Statement in regard to the same personshaving always attended at the hearing of agrarian eases in the courts in Westmeath, the conclusion being that they were there on behalf of the Ribbon Society, Talbot, 20-31. 354-These persons were chiefly small holders of land, but there were some middle-class farmers, ib. 26, 27. 422-Few large holders connected with the Ribbon Society, ib. 422. Opinion that -the large farmers have but little sympathy with the Ribbon Society' Rochfort-Boyd, 1679. 1688-Sympathy of the tenant class with the action of the Ribbon Society as regards land, Mooney, 1874-1880. 2121-2123. See also Agrarian Crime. Evictions. Intimidation and Terrorism. Landlords. Threatening Letters. Large proportion of threatening Utters not reported to the police, Talbot 161-Frequency of threatening letters before outrages are committed, ib. 343 -Difficulty in carrying out successful searches of houses for the discovery of threaten¬ ing letters, ib. 564-568. 599-601-Circumstance of a magistrate having been put to an expense of 200/. in damages and costs in respect of an illegal search warrant, Talbot 564, 565; Reade 991, 992. Deficiency of the Peace Preservation Act, as regards the power of search for threatening letters, Reade 901. 989-995-Very numerous threatening letters in wit¬ ness’s district; single instance of conviction, there being generally no evidence for a trial, ib. 804-812. 843-848-Failure of an attempt by witness to trace some threatening letters to their source, ib. 1013, 1014. Numerous threatening letters in Westmeath, relating chiefly to land, Mooney 1842, 1843-Information relative to a threatening letter received by witness as solicitor for a gentleman for the payment of whose rent he had applied, ib. 1854-1856.2118-2120. 2165-2173. 2248-2250-Increase of threatening letters in Westmeath during the last two years, Julian 2500, 2501. Instances of threatening letters in witness’s district; of late these have been confined to one locality, Rogers 3066-3069. 3194-3199-Very absurd subjects to which some threatening letters have referred, ib. 3066. 3162-3166-Belief as to the same person having written threatening letters for the county of Westmeath as well as for King’s County, ib. 3194-3'99- Tipperary. Witness has always heard that there was no Ribbonism in the county of Tipperary, Talbot 762-Occurrence of agrarian outrages in Tipperary, though witness cannot say they are attributable to Ribbonism, Rogers 3157-3161. Townsend, Norman Lionel. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Is sub-inspector of constabulary in Kilbeggan district, Westmeath, 3321-3323-Frequency of Ribbon outrages in the district within the last two years, the police making prompt investigation, but finding it almost impossible to obtain evidence, 3324-3336. 3374-3376-Reluctance of those threatened to give information, 3333-3336-System of day and night police patrols, the movements of the police being olten very well known, 3337-3339-Total of seventy- nine men under witness’s orders; how distributed, 3340-3347. Several arrests of persons out late at night, without any conviction having been secured, 3348-3354-Particulars relative to the arrest by witness of the leader of an armed party in November last, previous information having been obtained ; conviction in this case, 3355-3365-Belief that the military organisation of the police does not interfere with their efficiency, 3365-3371-Doubt as to any special detectives^ having been sent into witness’s district, 3372-3375. Trade. Doubt as to Ribbonism embracing many traders in towns, Reade 1095-Belief that the illegal confederation in Westmeath does not interfere with trade, Rogers 3066. V. Vacant Farms. Particulars relative to three farms now vacant in the Kilbeggaivdistrict; repeated acts of terrorism and outrage, so that no one dare occupy any of ihese farms, Reade 813-859-One farm has been vacant for twelve or fourteen years, two succes¬ sive tenants of it having been shot, ib. 814-824-Each of the three farms originally became vacant through non-payment of rent and consequent eviction, ib. 815. 825, 82^ 849, 850-Continued vacancy of a few farms, owing to the influence of Ribbonism, Mooney 2031. Vigilance Committee. Impracticability of a Vigilance Committee being formed in the county of Westmeath, Talbot 349-Prospect of the formation of a Vigilance Committee by the people themselves, Right Hon. Colonel French 3566. Visits by Armed Parties . Report to the police in all cases of visits by armed parties, Talbot , 161-163-^adequacy of the police to prevent armed men going about at night, Rochfort-Boyd, 1768, 1769. M7* 25 s W A G W I N Report, 1871— continued. W. Wages. Very low wages in Westmeath, Talbot 476, 477-Doubt as to wages being as low as 10 d. or is. a day, Cusack 1420-Average wages of from 9s. to 10s. a week in Westmeath, Rochfort-Boyd 15.58-1567-Witness pays 9 s. a week, with a house and garden, ib. 1559-1562- See also Labouring Classes. Walsh, Peter. Information respecting the murder of a man named Walsh, in 1864, the outrage having been of an agrarian character; failute of justice in this case through one of two approvers having absconded, Talbot 32-58-Conclusion that the murderers in the foregoing case come fiom a neighbouring county, and were set in motion by the Ribbon Society, ib. 50. Waters, Thomas. Particulars in connection with the murder of Waters, a process-server; impossibility of procuring any satisfactory evidence, so that there was no committal, Barry 1181-1200. 1239-1245-Conclusion as to the murder of Waters having been a Ribbon outrage, ib. 1189, 1190. Employment of Waters, the process-server, to serve an ejectment for witness on the father of Captain Duffy; conclusion that the murder of Waters on this occasion was a Ribbon outrage, Crofton 1791-1796-Large compensation paid to the mother of Waters, Julian 2530-2533. Further statement containing particulars of this murder, App. 173. Westmeath. Charge of Chief Justice Monaghan to the grand jury of the county of West¬ meath, on 2nd March 1871 ; comments therein upon the dreadful state of the county as to crime, App. 161, 162. Return of agrarian outrages in the county from the 1st January 1870 to the 28th February 1871, showing the proceedings taken, if any, App. 169-171. Return of all offences committed in the county since Summer Assizes, 1869, to Spring Assizes, 1870, showing in each case what proceedings have been taken to bring the offendeis to justice, and the result, App. 177-185--Similar returns for the periods since the Summer Assizes of 1870 and since the last assizes, ib. 186-197. See also the Headings generally throughout the index. Winter Months. Frequency of outrages between October and April, Talbot 157-159 - Re-commencement of outrages in Westmeath when witness left the county in October 1870, ib. 169-172. 193, 194-Occurrence of outrages chiefly in the winter time, when the lands aie being settled, ib. 418, 419. * ' .* ■ r ■ . _ J’X i (i -. J j • • •: ■ ./ . . - - . .... . - . • - • -r • - • • ■ : ■ v ..v-. i - . ' • FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE WESTMEATH, &c. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATIONS). Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed 31 March 1871. DATE DUE UNIVERSITY PRODUCTS, INC. #859-5503